How to Stop Letting Fear Control Your Life (ft. Dr. Julie Smith)

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
All right, let's talk about thatlittle voice in your head.
You know the one I'm talking about.
The one that tells you that you're not good enough, that you
should have done everything better, or that everyone else
has it all figured out except for you.
Yeah, you know the one. Well, today we're going to put
that voice under the microscope with someone who has spent her
entire career helping people manage it.

(00:20):
Doctor Julie Smith is a clinicalpsychologist and best selling
author. Her knack for explaining complex
mental health issues with short,super engaging videos has gained
her millions of followers and made her one of the most popular
mental health educators in the world.
In this episode we are going to talk about how to reframe
negative thoughts and beliefs, why self criticism is such a
trap and how you can get out of it.

(00:42):
What she has personally struggled with since becoming
Internet famous. What it means to build actual
resilience and not just make resilience.
Why emotions are not facts, and much, much more.
So if you've ever felt stuck in your own head, struggled with
motivation, or just wanted a better way to handle the
inevitable shitstorms of life, this one is for you.
My friends, this is Doctor Julie.

(01:04):
Let's get right into it. It's the Subtle Art of Not
Giving a Fuck podcast with your host Mark Manson.
Doctor Julie Smith, welcome to the show.
Thanks for having me. All the way from Britain having
you here I have AI was OK. I have a selfish question for
you to start out. So you are a clinical

(01:26):
psychologist, you rose the prominence through social media.
Social media at this point is well known for being terrible
for mental health. It's.
Not my fault by the. Way I.
Don't do that. We're not.
Yeah. We're not, we're not going to
hold you accountable, but I'm wondering, do you feel any

(01:50):
cognitive dissonance around that?
How do you square that? Like I said, some of this is a
selfish question because I thinkabout this sometimes being so
active on social platforms, really trying to play the game
with the algorithm and everything.
Like how do you? Yeah, you know.
It was a, it was a big deal whenwe first started kind of sharing
videos and stuff. And I was absolutely kind of

(02:12):
swimming against the tide professionally.
Most therapists I knew and psychologists didn't even really
use social media, let alone, youknow, to share information.
And so there it was a big kind of part of my thought process
about whether we do this or not.And and then I thought, well
actually, you know, I can sit inmy therapy room and complain

(02:34):
about all the terrible advice there is out there from people
who don't necessarily have the evidence base behind them and
have 0 control over it. Or I can get onto the Internet
and make my tiny little corner of it really helpful and
positive so that anyone who is out there scrolling has slightly

(02:57):
more chance of coming across something that was decent
information for them. And so it was the only way that
I could really have a positive impact because I can't change
the fact that everybody is on social or how it's run.
So yeah, it just became a kind of the way that I could have
positive influence was I guess doing that.
But I did not expect it to have any really.

(03:19):
I, we made a couple of really terrible YouTube videos just
because I felt like it was, it seemed like a good thing to do
to share the educational side oftherapy.
So a lot of people think you go to therapy and you just talk,
but you do learn a lot about howyour mind works and
relationships and stuff. And that was where the the title
of my first book came from was all these young people that were
coming through to therapy. And why hasn't nobody told me

(03:42):
this before? I, this is not rocket science,
but when I take it seriously andI put it into my life, it's
having a really positive impact.So I used to kind of go home and
say, you know, there should, there should be more available.
People shouldn't have to pay to come and see someone like me to
find out basics about how their own brain works.
And so poor old Matt said, well,go on then, you know, make it

(04:02):
available. And so that was when we started
with a bit of YouTube and and then Matt discovered TikTok at
the time. And so I make some bite sized
videos. No way, no way.
It was like dancing and you know, comedy and stuff.
And then a bunch of people who were expressing their distress,

(04:23):
but there wasn't anything sort of constructive or positive in
response to that. So I honestly thought we were
going to be like, trolled out ofthere or just ignored.
So he said, well, if that happens, then we'll just, you
know, delete the account and move on with our lives.
And so we were kind of expectingthat to happen at some point.
I thought it'd be one of those projects you do for a while
because it feels like a nice thing to do.

(04:44):
And then it would fizzle out. And that was 2019.
And here we are. Wow, so you have become Internet
famous. For better or worse, you're now
a best selling author. You're touring the US doing a
press tour. I'm curious, how is that
affected your mental health? You.

(05:05):
Know it's really I'm I never hadany ambition to be a public
person whatsoever. I was so happy doing 1 to one
therapy in the room with people felt like I was really good at
that. And I had, so I was in the NHS
about 10 years and then I left to do the private work so that I
could manage around my children and have this really balanced

(05:26):
life. And it was all good.
And then I had this great idea of sharing it all alone.
And, and all of that stuff went out the window and I was then
pushed into doing all this kind of stuff that was way out my
comfort zone, like, you know, live TV and radio and speaking
events and stuff. And, but I felt like I had to do

(05:48):
it because I needed to practice what I was preaching, you know,
I'm telling people, you know, face your fears, step out your
comfort zone, do what matters. And the reason we kept going
when it was really tough was that people just would e-mail
and contact us all the time saying that was really helpful.
What's the next step to this? Or can you do a video on this?

(06:08):
And here's how the book really, really helped me and my family.
And thank you very much. And, and when you realize you're
having a positive impact on reallives, that gives you that kind
of, I guess, set of values around, OK, This is why I'm
doing it even when it's not easyor comfortable for me.
You know, I'm definitely a huge introvert.

(06:30):
And so when I do stuff like this, while I can really enjoy
it because I'm talking about stuff that really interests me,
it will totally deplete me. So I will need to, you know, I
mean, my family will be at the hotel like, hi, mom.
And I'm just going away for a minute.
I need to collapse and heap for a minute and and so I have to

(06:50):
have that kind of values based behind me about we're doing it
for reason and and because it feels like a positive things to
do so yeah, which gives you thatdrive, I guess.
Have you found yourself needing to take your own advice in a
certain area? All the time, yeah.
And like, what is that specific?Day, Yeah.

(07:12):
What is the piece of advice thatyou often give that you struggle
to take yourself? Well, let's take the idea of the
kind of when I've started doing live TV, So I was doing like
this morning and stuff in the UK, which is a sort of morning
program and on a sort of fairly regular basis.
And really the only way I was able to do or willing to do that

(07:36):
was if I fully committed to having my own back if it all
went wrong. You know, when you kind of when
you're about to do it and there's equipment everywhere and
they can't, you know, 3-2 onlineyou and you get these sort of
horror movie ideas run through your mind about, Oh my God, I'm
going to fall over on that staffand the nation's going to see my
underwear and I'm going to be humiliated.
And all these kind of things running through your mind.

(07:57):
The only way you can then settleinto doing the job that you know
how to do is to say, OK, well, if that worst case scenario
happens, I'm not going to kick myself while I'm down.
I'm going to not be, you know, highly self critical about it.
I'm going to look after myself and acknowledge that this is
really difficult for me. And so I guess I had to shift

(08:20):
that sort of in a dialogue from one that was probably a lot
harsher before to one that sounded much more not, not
indulgent, not kind of lovey dovey and all that, You know,
hocus pocus. It was I had this idea of a sort
of a coach for, you know, all elite athletes have a coach, but

(08:42):
that person isn't someone who tells you what you want to hear
necessarily is what they tell you what you need to hear to
enable you to. I don't know when you've had a
set back to call you back up andget you to try again or someone
who believes in you that and is able to say that you can reach
new heights if you, you know, get back in there and stuff.
So I have that kind of idea in my mind that I have to be my own

(09:05):
coach in my mind to be able to to deal with the kind of all
these situations that I could easily say no to.
So. It's kind of visualizing worst
case scenario and then remindingyourself, I'll be OK, I'll have
compassion for myself. I'm not going to judge myself,
hold it against myself. Yeah.
And I didn't sort of hang myselfworth on all of it going really

(09:28):
well and or any of it. Like I was really happy that all
of this happened a little bit later in life when I already had
a career that I loved and I knewI was good at and I already had
three beautiful children, a goodmarriage.
Like I was OK, like my life was fine.
And so this was an added extra. So I I knew that if it all ended

(09:48):
tomorrow, it wouldn't matter toomuch to me because I'm not
hanging my self esteem on it. So I think that helped as well.
It's like there's a diversification of your identity
across many things, and so if one thing goes terribly.
Yeah. It's like an investment
portfolio. Yeah.
It would be like, yeah, right inmy investment.

(10:10):
If this stock crashes, I'm stillOK, yeah.
And the fact that I was doing educational content really
helped as well because because Iwas making content that was just
to be helpful. And that's really how it all
started when I started to get myself a little bit so that, you
know, in the days when I was scrolling for research.
And then you get yourself in like, oh God, they look much

(10:31):
better than I do in front of thecamera or their lighting is much
better or their clothes much better that I was really able to
just check myself on that. And, and if a video could be
helpful to someone, even if in looking back at it, I thought,
Oh my God, I look terrible or anything like that, I was able
to just let it go anyway. And not be perfectionist about

(10:54):
the stuff that really didn't matter so much.
And so that was, yeah, that mattered hugely, I think made a
big difference. My problem was always saying no.
Yeah, that's my advice that I give all the time.
Yeah, I'm fucking terrible at taking myself.
You have a chapter in the book about that actually too, don't
you? About saying like accepting and

(11:15):
saying yeah, I said too many things.
I think I was I found it difficult to say no at the
beginning when we felt like it was going to end tomorrow, you
know, when we thought, OK, this is all it would just just make
hey, just like go for it while while people are listening and
and then we'll, you know, it'll stop in a minute.
And and it just didn't. And so now, now that I recognise

(11:36):
it's not all just going to shut off at some point, I'm able to
say, no, I'm just going to do this in a sustainable way.
Because in that, that first yearor two when every video we're
putting on was getting more and more engagement, more and more
views, it was just like the system loved us.
And we, and so we were thinking,OK, we just need to make as much
content as possible while this is happening.

(11:58):
And so we're making videos almost every day.
And but it was still just me andmy husband.
He still works full time, three kids at home, lockdown, home
schooling. I was writing my first book
then. And it was just, you know, thing
that got sacrificed was sleep. And and that's not a good
equation at all. So, yeah, now I'm much more.

(12:18):
And because I'm not driven by that sort of like a fame or
anything like that, I guess somepeople in the system probably
think she's mad. Why is she saying no to this?
Why is she saying no to that? But it just just doesn't because
it's not featuring on that kind of value system.
Then it's become easier to say. Now I.

(12:40):
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and you'll thank me later. You open the book, which is open
when a compare a companion for life's twists and turns.
You open the book with social comparison, actually a a chapter

(14:09):
on social comparison. Why did you open with that there
and how, how can people kind of navigate social comparison since
it's such a deep rooted thing that we have and and experience?
Yeah, I think social comparison,well, all of the chapters, so
there all that is 26 different chapters in different scenarios
and they're all based on things that we all face at some point.

(14:34):
And you know, social comparison is one of those things that
there's nobody that's not done it.
You know, it's something that's in US.
And yet there's so much on social media that it's probably
one of the reasons I have to stay away from social media is
that so much on out there is just stop comparing yourself,
you know, because it, it'll makeyou feel bad.
And it's like really you, you, it's, it's such a, a fundamental

(14:55):
part of being human. Our ability to do that helps us
to be decent human beings too, right?
So if you live in a community ofpeople and you're not comparing
yourself to them, then you're quite possibly not really being
a decent member of that community.
Because our ability to check outthe people that we're living
amongst and work out, you know, what their moral framework is,

(15:17):
how they like to behave, what the rules are.
And, and if you're able to then compare that to how you're doing
and what, how you're living in that circle, that's really going
to fare you well and, and you'regoing to be a hopefully a decent
part of that community. So as far as I can see it, the,
the ability to compare is a strength, but in this kind of
modern world and especially on social and things like that, it

(15:42):
kind of flips that strength upside down and, and we end up
making comparisons that don't necessarily help us move forward
in our own lives, but can kind of send you into turmoil.
So, you know, if you're, I don'tknow if you're comparing
yourself to someone that you never ever would have even met
without social media, who is on a completely different playing

(16:03):
field to you. And you're comparing yourself in
ways that, and I know, let's saylike your looks or your
personality or some sporting talent OR something that's
really not that changeable, thenyou know, that's going to result
in you kind of curled up on the sofa feeling like you're a
terrible person or you're rubbish and you're never going
to be good enough. Whereas if you use your ability

(16:24):
to compare, you apply it to the right situation and you can use
it to your advantage, right. So I don't know if you're trying
to get better at tennis and you go to your local Tennis Club and
there's someone who is kind of afew months or years ahead of you
on their kind of journey and younotice that the thing you want
to improve, I don't know, your backhand or something.

(16:46):
They do it really well and you can kind of zone right in on
that and go, what is it that they do and, and how do they do
it? And what can I learn from that?
And then all of that comparison becomes a plan of action that
actually helps you in your life to improve the thing that is
important to you. Whereas, you know, if you just
go on, I don't know, social media and compare yourself to

(17:09):
Federer or someone, then it's not going to be as constructive
for you because it's not going to lead to a clear set of
actions that's going to help you.
I think another probably -1 is when you compare yourself to
people that you're supposed to be in a relationship with.
So whether that be friends or family even, especially with
these kind of outside success metrics and stuff like that, all

(17:30):
of that stuff just destroys relationships because you're
instantly, you know, someone that you're supposed to be on a
team with. You're suddenly putting a
scoreboard between you And so their success feels like a
threat and your success will feel like a threat to them and
and that just kind of thwarts your connection completely.
Yeah, yeah. In the book you talk about we

(17:52):
can we compare ourselves to people and then the reaction we
have to that. And it can either be
aspirational or you can kind of turn it inward and say, well,
I'm just garbage. You kind of already mentioned
that. How do you take someone like in
your, your practice, how do you take someone from kind of
reframing that to seeing all these people doing amazing
things around me and oh, I'm such a piece of garbage to, you

(18:12):
know, oh, these people should bean aspiration to me instead.
You have to be clear that you'rein the right situation.
First of all, I think because you can easily enter a situation
that doesn't necessarily featurein your kind of dreams for
yourself or your value system and then instantly start, you
know, because I, I remember feeling that actually when I
first started doing like some TVbits.

(18:35):
So you go into that scenario, everyone's just beautiful and
like, you know, all the, there'sthis kind of whole new world of
stuff and then you go home, you feel like garbage.
So you can be comparing yourselfnegatively in a situation that
is never going to turn into something constructive because
that's not what you're aiming for anyway.
And in that situation, I think you have to come back to your

(18:58):
own life and remember what matters to you.
And I mean, one of the exercisesin the book, I think I've put it
in both books actually, because it's something that I, it
applies to so many situations and it's one of the tools that I
personally use fairly often actually, is the values exercise
stuff. So it's, there's loads of
different ways you can do it, but it's really simple to get
pen and paper and you look at, OK, split it into different

(19:22):
boxes and list each area of yourlife.
So that might be marriage, parenting, friendship, health,
lifelong learning, whatever. And in each box, you put a few
sentences or thoughts about whatmatters most to you in that area
of your life. They're not what you want to
get, not what you want to happento you, but how you want to show

(19:43):
up there and the kind of thing you want to represent there in
good times and bad. And so you get a few words
there, sentences, and then you rate each box.
It was just a crude kind of zeroto 10.
How important are those values to you in your life?
0 not all 10 Max. So then you rate it again, still
out of 10, but this time how much you feel you're living in

(20:06):
line with that value this week or this month.
And then what you get is this indication of where you need to
focus your attention in your life.
So if you have rated something as 10 out of 10 important, but
two out of 10, and how much you feel you're living in line with
it right now, then that needs your attention, right?
Whereas there might be other areas that you're really living

(20:26):
in line with it, but it's not, it's not a tool for self
criticism. It's a tool to show you where to
place your attention next. Because you can't be 10 out of
10 on all of it all of the time.It's just impossible because
life pulls you in different directions, right?
So, you know, while I'm, you know, bringing a book out into
the world, I'm not doing every single school run like I want to

(20:48):
or whatever those things are, but swings the roundabouts.
I then know that if I'm not spending as much time with them
as I want to be and know that I'm going to make a plan to move
back in that direction and just even things out a bit.
And so you're constantly, you know, it's like if you're on a
balancing beam, you never find that sweet spot where you just
stay there and you're balanced forever.
You're constantly shifting a bitand you just notice when you're

(21:10):
going too far one way and you put yourself back the other way.
So I think digressing from your question a bit, but when you,
you know, if you're comparing yourself in a situation that
isn't based on what you're aiming for anyway, then that's
one way you can just sort of recalibrate almost and, and come
back to actually what matters tome, because there's so many
things you, you know, you can goout and compare yourself to

(21:31):
anyone and anything who have completely different lives and
completely different values states to you.
So you can come back to. Is that something I should be
comparing myself to or not? And, and I think that's a really
helpful exercise because then ifyou're also basing your goals on
your values, it becomes really easy to look at who I should be

(21:52):
comparing myself to and why and how.
Yeah. And Mark, you talk about that a
lot about choosing the metrics. Yeah, similar to what you're
just saying too. Yeah, choosing the metrics
you're going to measure yourselfby 1.
Of the things that I always think about is like, if you're
going to compare yourself to a good aspect of somebody, you
also need to compare yourself tothe, the bad aspect of that

(22:12):
person, right? So it's, it's like easy for me
to look at somebody who, you know, I don't know, has
accomplished like some incredible thing.
I can envy that, but I also needto envy all of the sacrifices,
struggles, pitfalls, problems that they've gone through to get
that positive thing. And I think kind of a mental
fallacy that we all fall into isthat we we only envy the

(22:34):
positive thing. We don't see all of the negative
struggle and sacrifice that camethat went into that positive
thing. And if, and I think a lot of
times if we were aware of that, we'd be like, Oh no, no, no, I
would not trade places with thatperson.
Yeah, yeah. I think that's a big thing that
I certainly became aware of doing therapy, particularly once

(22:54):
I left the NHS and I was doing private therapy.
I worked with people that you would imagine must have the best
lives. You know, that whether it be
professional athletes or people who are really high up in that,
you know, industry leaders and think, well, you just imagine
happy, how could they be worriedabout anything?
And some of them were amongst the most unhappy people I've

(23:16):
ever worked with. And so that as a sort of
personal life experience for me was really helpful for there's a
lot of this stuff is about perspective shifting, isn't it?
And sometimes we get so into thedetail of one tiny area of life
and we start to then over inflate it or magnify things.

(23:37):
And just having that shift of being able to put something at
arm's length and go, oh, OK, that's not what I thought it
was. It was just so helpful.
And that's really what the book is about.
To be fair, I think a lot of people when you're in the eye of
the storm, whatever that storm is, what you don't need is for
someone to say, you probably should have learned my 1-6

(23:57):
months ago, then you'll be rightnow.
You don't need that. You need someone that just go,
you know, just helps you to justshift the trajectory of your
attention and say, if you focus on this, you start moving
forward. You're going to move through it
and out the other side. But that's really hard to do for
yourself because you've got emotion and confusion and no
one's telling you how you know which way is up.
So it just, you know, helps you through that kind of either

(24:19):
storm almost. What else have you found
surprising through your practice?
I don't want to get too dark about it, but I, so I used to my
sort of specialist area when I was training was with the
Ministry of Defence. So we had a small unit that was
by the NHS, but it was just for MOD.
So, and at the time we were in Afghanistan, lots of people

(24:41):
coming back. So my sort of specialism was
military trauma really. And so I guess I, that probably
influenced what I do now even more than I might have
previously thought, because there's a certain approach to,
to that sort of set of people that you might not have

(25:04):
otherwise have taken. You know, they'll only go listen
to you if you're, you know, dressing something in a certain
way. And so that, but also listening
to stories like that, I think fundamentally changes you and
your your views on what humans are capable of for good or bad

(25:31):
and what people can be LED into.And so I think, and that
happened. I was doing that.
So that was my kind of specialist year.
So my final year of training, I was doing that.
And then as I graduated, my supervisor left his role and so
I went into his job. And so I was then like running
this unit as a newly qualified person.

(25:52):
And that was just massively gamechanging for me.
I think a massive sort of massive learning curve around
the sorts of things that people have to face.
And they're like things that if it was a movie, you wouldn't
imagine it could be true. And that people out there have
such tough lives. There are so many people dealing

(26:12):
with stuff that we can't begin to imagine.
Yeah. Yeah, You had this great quote
in the book, though. You said some of the most
profound changes I've witnessed in people over the years have
not been when their lives suddenly got easier.
It was when people started to discover that they had more
capacity to cope with than they had ever imagined, which I think
speaks to what you were just saying.
How how do you guide someone through if they're in this kind

(26:35):
of emotional morass, basically? And maybe it isn't as extreme
as, you know, combat veterans oranything like that, but how do
you guide someone from this place of I'm so overwhelmed with
just emotion and so things are going so bad in my life, How do
you get them to the place where,look, you can't handle this, You
can't cope with this? Well, that, I think that's the

(26:55):
kind of stuff that led to me doing all of this and sharing
the videos because in the private practice I was getting,
lots of people come through thatonce they had the educational
stuff, they were raring to go. But the reason for that was when
they came into the room, they thought they were at the mercy
of emotional experience and moodand that, and that when when

(27:18):
they had emotion, that meant something was wrong with them.
And so part of that education was learning that emotions
aren't who you are, they're an experience you're going to go
through. And it's all this stuff you can
do that influences that experience.
So that means a, you don't have to fully believe in it every
time it happens because it's influenced by all these other

(27:40):
things that change. And there's this stuff you can
do to either, you know, prevent it from happening in such an
extreme way, but also help you kind of bring yourself back to
baseline when you feel it. And you still remember the
people now where, where they would get to a point where they
felt able to, you know, they weren't, they weren't constantly

(28:03):
thinking, what would Julie say right now?
What, what, what, what would shesay I should do to do?
You know, whatever happens, I think, I think I can cope with
it. And, and it's this shift into
the sense of agency that I have the capacity to manage whatever
comes up for me because I know I'll have my own back and that
I've got a few tools to kind of deal with that.

(28:24):
And that's just a that's a huge shift for someone.
I think if you believe in your ability to deal with hard times,
it feels fundamentally different.
You know, you go from being the rabbit in headlights when
something happens to the prey, that the person that's striding
forward through it knowing there's a way through to the
other side. And certainly I use that kind of

(28:46):
thing when. Yeah.
So last summer I was diagnosed with an early stage breast
cancer. And when you find out something
like that, you never find out everything all at once.
You don't say, OK, you've got this thing and here's how far
along it is and here's your treatment plan and here's your
prospects. You, you find out in stages.

(29:07):
So there's this horrible period of time where you do feel like
the rabbit had lights and you'rejust like, Oh my God, what, what
does my future hold? I don't know.
I hated that feeling of being the prey, like, you know, and,
and I had this thing in my mind that if you, if you, if you feel
like the prey, then you behave like 1 and you, and then every

(29:28):
movement you make is a sort of darting from shadow to shadow,
avoiding threats. And that, that's so different to
a stride forward, which is that kind of predator movement of
I've got something in my sights and I'm using all this energy to
go for it. And I might, you know, and, and
so I wanted to kind of feel thatway as I was dealing with it.

(29:48):
And when I, when I got diagnosed, I, I was about a
week, a week or two away from handing in the manuscript for
open when. And I just thought I need to
finish. I was like editing, polishing
up. And I thought I just need to get
this off my desk, get it gone sothat I can focus on all of this.
And I just happened to be reading through the chapter on

(30:09):
when fear shows up. What do you know?
I was like reading it and I was like, this is not what I want to
hear at all. Actually, this is not.
It was very gentle and therapy ish.
And so I hit delete and rewrite the whole thing there and then
just for me. And it's kind of selfish way
like anyone else finds this helpful.
That's great. But this one's for me.

(30:30):
And and I did then I did keep coming back to it.
And every time I came back to it.
And he used all that language around predator and prey and,
you know, using fear to drive you forward through it and you
having a step forward, not a step back, all that kind of
stuff, like very kind of focusedand strong.
And Oh my goodness, every time Iread it, I then got into action

(30:54):
and sort of in my own survival, like in my own rescue, you know,
I would, I would then make callsto get second opinions or I, I
got, got in contact with someonewho recommended a surgeon and I
got and, and made stuff happen. And so even though it didn't
change the problem and it didn'treally change how scary it was,
it changed how I moved through that and, and it enabled me to

(31:17):
behave in a way that made me so proud of how I dealt with it.
And then from having that experience and and using those
words to deal with it in that way, I now have that template in
my mind that when it hits the fan, I know I can do stuff, I
know I can do hard things. And because I did it and doesn't
make them any easier to deal with.

(31:37):
But it feels fundamentally different for sure.
Can I just say you already know where I'm going with this?
I'm. Sorry, just didn't make.
It no, no, no, no. We like the darkness.
Yes, we like the darkness very much.
We're going to come back to the darkness.
But first I need to like score my, my, my points here.

(31:58):
Before we went live, Drew and I were having a good-natured
argument over people who quote UN quote thrive under pressure,
actually thrive or not, and whatyou just described.
That's what you're talking. About looks like taking the
initiative, not feeling like prey, but being the predator

(32:19):
that's thriving under. Pressure.
Well, I like, I like what how you framed it was that it didn't
affect how scary it was. You said it didn't affect the
fear. It affected where you put that
fear and how you use that fear. Rather than freezing rabbit in
the headlights, you took it to action.
I get that. The point is, I was right.

(32:40):
Let's get what's most important.Let's.
Let's really get to the crux of the matter is that I was right.
Thank you for showing that's true.
Chapter and I've been one about how to argue with someone so
yeah, let. Me.
Let me review this really quick.Really quick.
No, the whole first, like third of the book is, is dealing with
relationships basically. I think there are, you know,

(33:02):
there's a lot of people. Now you have these three
chapters. What were they there?
When your friends are not your friends, When you want to be
less awkward around people, whenyou feel unwelcome and want to
fit in. These are kind of getting out
the nuts and bolts of, of loneliness.
I think actually of what's goingon the larger picture right now.
You know, in recent years, loneliness has become kind of a
this worrying trend. People are more and more lonely.

(33:25):
What kind of things do you recommend to people?
Somebody comes to to to your practice and they're it's
obvious that they're just suffering from a lot of
loneliness. Are there like specific things
that they can do to like in in the short run especially, what
can they do to feel less lonely and start to engage with people
in a in a better, healthier way?Yeah, it's interesting actually,

(33:46):
because in there I talk about how I guess people would assume
that as a psychologist, I'm all into the kind of inner world and
and, you know, being self reflective all the time and that
kind of thing. But in there I say about, you
know, when you're dealing with stuff, the inner world is a bit
like a sauna. Like there are benefits to being
there, but only if you don't stay too long.

(34:08):
So you know, anyone that I was dealing with in a therapeutic
situation who was lonely, My jobis really to put myself out of a
job, right? So is to focus on enabling that
person to reach out to or createscenarios where they can have
human connection and good quality human connection.

(34:29):
And sometimes that's a function of circumstance or putting
yourself in those kind of opportunities and scenarios.
And sometimes it's about skill set and being able to reach out
to someone and, you know, speak to them and, and be assertive
and advocate for yourself for those kind of situations or deal

(34:50):
with social anxiety. And so there can be lots of
different barriers to connectingwith people, but sometimes for a
lot of people, I think the barriers are just modern life,
right? You know, we, we were saying at
home, you know, I mean, obviously I'm from England, The
pub is the community pub is likea traditional, an ancient

(35:12):
tradition in England. And really it was somewhere
people came together and had a conversation at the end of the
day. And those things are kind of
dying out now. And, and, and even for kids that
I remember as a kid, I, I sort of lived in this like kind of
little sort of area with all thehouses.
And there was a big green in themiddle.
And all the kids would run home and get changed and then all

(35:34):
knock on each other's doors. And we'd all spend the rest of
the evening outside just doing nothing and talking and learning
how to treat each other. And that stuff just is so few
and far between. Now they're, you know, getting
on Fortnite and talking over a mic occasionally.
And it's just, yeah, it's completely.
So sometimes the barriers are just modern life and then, but I

(35:55):
think that's up to us then to toswim against the tide on that
front. Yeah, it takes extra.
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(36:58):
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Use the promo code IDGAF at checkout stands for I don't Give
a fuck and you'll get 10% off. You just mentioned in passing
that your. Job as a therapist is to put
yourself out of a job. I'm curious, which I love that
I'm curious for people who are in therapy or going to therapy,
like how A, how do they know it's working versus just kind of

(37:21):
treading water? And then B, how do they know
when it's time to to go? Yeah, Well, I guess a lot of
therapy is goal oriented. So if they're moving towards
that goal, whatever that might be, then that's a kind of clear
sign, isn't it? And and for some people it's
more about clarity. So a big part of what you do in
therapy is you formulate. So, you know, literally on paper

(37:44):
will map out because some people, if it's like about
relationships and stuff, a lot of people will say, I don't know
what the problem is, but I'm just, I'm, I always do the same
thing And I know it's not the right thing, but I don't know
why I do it. And then we're going run in
circles. And so in those kind of
scenarios where there isn't a clear endpoint, where it's all
OK, you're really what you're doing is formulating.

(38:05):
So you're looking at, OK, these these cycles that you feel stuck
in the details change each time,but roughly the kind of cycles
the same. And you might create an
understanding about where that came from.
So it usually reflects those early relationships you had in
life. But there's this kind of update
that's needed because that template for relationships
worked as a child, as a, you know, how to function as a

(38:27):
child, but now as an adult, it messes things up.
And so you kind of explore ways to exit that.
And sometimes you'll go around the old cycle again and that's
fine. And sometimes you'll be able to
exit and do something different.And then after a while of doing
something different, you start to see that it's possible.
And I think once people start tosee that it's possible, they

(38:49):
then feel less dependent on those sessions and they can see
that, OK, I know what I need to do now.
I know what I need to do. And, and then someone will say,
well, I'll just come back once amonth for a bit.
And then, and there's a bit of aholding on and, and then, and
then they're kind of like, yeah,I'm good.
And so it's a gradual process. But yeah, usually depends on the

(39:10):
on the person's goal I'd say. What's the difference between a
good therapist and a bad therapist?
There's probably loads on that in terms of what bad therapy is.
The way what I would look for insomeone is, is that personal
connection, that ability to feelsafe in the room, to talk,
because that's what you've got to be able to do, right?
You've got to be able to say things that you would never tell

(39:30):
another soul. And and so you have to be able
to connect with a person. I mean, when I was running my
practice, that would always, youknow, have like a, a free sort
of telephone conversation with someone beforehand where you
kind of this, you know, filling things out, seeing if that
that's something they want to do.
And, and that first kind of assessment session is always

(39:52):
about, does it feel right for both people?
You're kind of almost assessing each other about whether you
want to come back or not and, and that sort of thing.
But it's, yeah, it's all about how the stuff you can't really
measure, you know, like how it feels in the room.
And, and, and often it's interesting because some of the
people that I would sit with in that first session, I think and

(40:15):
everything back, I'm not sure. And then, and then they do and
then each session they get a bitmore comfortable and a bit more
comfortable. And, and sometimes people are
more comfortable than you imagine they are because it's
completely different to how theyfeel and when they're in their
own lives, so. What?
OK, So what makes a good patientthen?

(40:36):
How can we be better? Like, you know, if, if we do
find that match, because I thinkthere's a certain type of person
who goes to therapy saying, OK, now fix me, right?
That's definitely the. That's kind of the standard.
Yeah, most people. I think when they think of it,
they're like, yeah, if I'm goingto go to therapy, you should fix
me. That's obviously not how it
works, though. So what makes like how can we be

(40:58):
better patients and clients for somebody like you?
I think if you go to therapy is having some sort of idea of what
you're wanting out of it, but saying that actually I've done
work with people where we kind of that's a collaborative piece
of work anyway, as that they then a lot of people come to
therapy and they're good. I don't really know what's
wrong. It's just everything doesn't

(41:19):
feel right and I'm just a bit lost.
And so that, you know, the development of goals is then a
part of that formulation of whaton Earth's going on.
Then what's what's changed, whatdoes?
So it's part of that kind of guided discovery together around
how have we got here and what's that about?
And so I guess that willingness to be honest is a big one
because the therapist only knowsas much as you tell them.

(41:43):
And so if if someone is going toget, you know, if I'm going to
get the most out of a therapy experience, that's where the
trust and the relationship comesin.
I need to be able to go in there, say everything, even when
it feels uncomfortable to do that.
And then if that person is a skilled enough therapist,
you're, you know, you're going to stand the best chance of
getting something out of it, I think.

(42:03):
Yeah. When should you, when should you
leave a therapist for? Not for a good reason, but like
if there is a, if you're having,when's the time to break up with
your therapist? I guess, yeah.
Well, do you know what, any decent therapist will have the
ending in their mind already. We're often try often talk about
that, but you know, endings are really difficult for a lot of

(42:24):
people and the end is your goal.So, you know, you start with
that sent not not necessarily a set number of sessions or
anything like that, but you start with how, especially if
endings are difficult for the person, how that's going to be
prepared for. And so usually if you've got
decent members, that that endingwill be, yeah, prepared for and

(42:49):
thought about long in advance about how that's going to be
done, because what you're doing is you're modelling a decent
ending. Lots of people have really
negative endings in their life that are quite traumatic.
And so if you can model positiveending and give yourselves a
degree of control around what that looks like and what makes
it positive, then they've got a new template in their mind for

(43:10):
what a positive ending is like. And so that in itself is really,
really valuable. Yeah, I never thought of it that
way. That's yeah, I'd like that.
Yeah. It's interesting.
My favorite section of this was Open When Everything Feels
Pointless. Oh yeah.
But not that one too. But but not because everything

(43:34):
feels impossible or hard, but because I'm just a miserable
existentialist. Just bring the darkness back.
Yeah, To bring the darkness, yeah.
Speaking of the. Darkness who, you know, smokes
my skinny French cigarettes. It is a problem that a lot of
people come to come to you and just in the space and like what
when everything does feel pointless?
Yeah, I mean, I do think nihilism is.

(43:56):
It's a real thing these days. Like I run, I struggle with it,
and then I run into a lot of people my age or Gen.
Z who struggle with it. And yeah, I don't know, I guess
I don't have. That's one I don't have any
answer to. You have a book chapter on it,
Doctor Julie. Well, I wouldn't say I have all
the answers to it, but I do see it coming up a lot for sure.

(44:22):
And and I also think it's a natural part of being human too.
I don't know anyone who's not experienced thoughts around that
or it often accompanies about oflow mood.
And, and then sometimes we assume that those thoughts came
first when sometimes they come second.
Like if I'm not, I don't know, three kids a night.

(44:46):
If, if I haven't had good sleep for a week, I'll start to
question my life choices, you know, And, and that's The thing
is, is often the thoughts don't comfort.
And, and so sometimes we give such, such value to the thought
as if because I'm thinking this way, it must be true.

(45:07):
Same with like emotional reasoning, you know, because I
feel like everything is pointless.
Everything must be pointless. And actually, maybe it's
because, you know, you're socially isolated, you haven't
exercised for six months and youhaven't slept well recently or
you're not eating well and, and all that's given your mood a dip
and now you're questioning life.So sometimes it's about sort of,

(45:28):
again, formulating that thing, getting a bird's eye view of it
or what's going on, What's made you vulnerable to feeling this
way? Because sometimes it's just a
combination of stuff, isn't it? And and in that sense, then kind
of dripping out of it is easier than when it's just a constant
worrying about whether life is in actually pointless.

(45:52):
Yeah. And I think too, what you
mentioned there, like when you take your feelings as, as the
base level truth of any situation that you're you're
asking for, that's that's not good, obviously, right.
Like if you say yes, everything feels pointless, so it must be
pointless or relationships are hard for me, so they're just not

(46:13):
worth it, period. The end, taking that small one
example and then generalizing itto the rest of your life is just
a recipe for disaster over and over again.
Yeah. Repeated disaster?
Actually, Yeah. Yeah, and A, and a big part of
what happens in therapy called DBT, that's around helping
people regulate their emotions and tolerate distress.
A lot of all of that is, is teaching people how to manage

(46:39):
emotion and, and look at it in adifferent way.
So, you know, one of those skills is about asking, OK, if
this big emotion is here and it's uncomfortable, rather than
do anything drastic to push it away and numb it, I'm going to
ask, OK, is it warranted? And is it proportionate to the
situation? Because The thing is that
emotion is, we know it can't be fact because it's influenced by

(47:00):
so many other things. You know, it's influenced by the
state of your body and your blood pressure and what you've
eaten today and how much coffee you've had and how much sleep
you've had. And it's influenced by the
people around you. You know, we are the best and
worst things for each other's nervous system.
It's influenced by your work environment and the pressure's
on you and how much exercise you've had and whatever.

(47:22):
Like so many things that can impact on your emotional state.
Therefore, if we just, when we experience an intense or painful
emotion, if we take that to be fact, we could be way off.
And then if we we do something impulsive in response to it, we
could kind of be sabotaging something really important to it

(47:45):
with the relationship or a job or whatever.
So a lot of those kind of skillsthat we teach people around and
dealing with emotion is a lot ofpause, wait, look at it, is it
warranted? Is it proportionate situation?
If it's not, let's just slow everything down and and think it
through. Yeah, yeah.

(48:07):
And I think like you said too, sometimes just being OK with the
emotion, you know, being OK withthe sense of pointlessness for a
while and understanding that, like that doesn't necessarily
make it true, but it's OK to feel this way at times.
And, and you know, like the weather, you know, in, in

(48:29):
meditation and Buddhism, they talk about how like emotions are
like weather patterns. You know, it's like you can
watch them pass the same way youwatch a cloud pass, you know, So
it's just because it's rainy today, it doesn't mean it's life
is rainy. It's just rainy today.
Yeah, indeed. And if you think of those kind
of life is pointless type thoughts as as fundamental to

(48:50):
human experience as a cloud as to weather, then you can notice
that feeling come and go. And you know, then when it does
come, it doesn't have to last forever, but also it will return
at some point. And that's OK and that's normal.
But like you said, it doesn't mean that forever.
You know, clouds are forever, but also that there are things

(49:10):
you can do. So it is cloudy and rainy.
It doesn't mean you stop living the life that matters to you.
It means you put a coat on when you go out, you know, so there
are certain things you can do tosort of soothe your way through
those difficult emotions and, and help you through it while
they're there. Yeah.
I just had a thought too that there's, there's like probably a

(49:32):
hidden value in the nihilism because like really what
nihilism is is just a questioning of the value of
anything. And you need to be able to
question the value of everything, right?
Like you need everything in yourlife.
You should be able to actually like stand back and question
like, is this actually really important?
Should I be focusing on this? Should I care about this?
And that same, I guess mental system that is doing that will

(49:57):
have moments where it's on OverDrive and you just kind of
feel that way about everything. The reframe that I always come
back to when I get that way is like, if there's no reason to do
anything, there's also no reasonto not do anything.
Like it's if everything's pointless, then I have no excuse
to not go do all the good thingsthat I know I could do, yeah.

(50:17):
You know, and actually given, given a certain set of
circumstances, it would become very clear very quickly what
actually matters to you. But the, the list of those
things would be so small that it's so then easy to work at,
you know, and it's usually always the, the people in our
lives that are closest to us that it's what matters the most,

(50:38):
right? They're the only things you grab
and A and a scary situation. And and so sometimes I think
when we ask the question, we're looking for something that, you
know, far out from what actuallymatters are we're looking for
some sort of something we can strive towards.
And actually what matters is right here next to you on the

(50:58):
sofa. And, and so often we, we spend
so much time, I think maybe that's a product of like, you
know, just constantly being marketed to about stuff we can
buy and stuff. But if you're constantly focused
on all of that outward stuff, itstarts to feel pointless.
But if we, if you turn towards that feeling with curiosity
rather than judgement, it, it tells you that, doesn't it, it

(51:22):
tells you, OK, if, if I'm spending most of my life on
stuff that doesn't seem to matter, then what does?
And how can I then spend more time doing the things that truly
matters to me? And, you know, I'm the same when
I, when I talk about kind of doing this work, which which is
really and, and feels really valuable.
But if I spend too much time doing that and I'm not being the

(51:43):
parent I want to be, forget it. Like it all feels out the
window. So but it's, if I listen to
that, it tells me what I need, which is to be doing the thing
that matters most to me. Yeah.
Yeah, cool. So we solve nihilism, we solve
therapy. I won my argument with Drew.
Anything else? I do.

(52:05):
I no, I do. Anything else we need to cover?
Just a little bit more navel gazing actually is what I would
you have a chapter on parents, acouple of chapters on parenting
actually, but the one when your parents got it wrong.
When, from your experience, how do parents often or most
commonly get it wrong and how does that affect people?
Great question. I don't know if there's a a most

(52:29):
common mistake because everybody's lives are so
different, right? But I think certainly a mistake
that we make when we think aboutthe parent, the mistakes that
our parents made is that we as we sort of move into adulthood,
we still treat that relationshipwith our parents as if it's a
parent child relationship. Yeah.

(52:50):
So we're still in that kind of child mode or that child kind of
position, which invites them to continue being the parent.
And then we feel frustrated about them behaving in that way
because we're a big adult now. And, and also that we expect
them as the parent to create therelationship that we always wish

(53:11):
we had with them, despite the fact that we're now in an adult
to adult relationship. So that we have now more agency
than we ever really sort of giveourselves credit for, to create
the relationship that we want with them.
And so rather than focusing on, are my parents giving me what I
need and, and making me feel what I want to feel, what am I

(53:34):
bringing to them? And, and how am I contributing
to this relationship in a positive way?
And am I doing anything that keeps it stuck in a difficult
scenario? And, you know, thinking about
things that happened in the pastand, and a lot of people kind of
have this fun to see that their parents could just see the

(53:54):
mistakes they made and, you know, apologize for it and, you
know, all would be OK, right? Just change one thing.
Yeah, yeah, right. And, and it sort of neglects the
fact that no one, no parent has a manual.
And those, you know, our, our own parents had their own
traumas and difficult backgrounds that they were

(54:15):
dealing with and much less insight than than we have now
about what parenting should looklike.
And, and we're, I think sometimes assuming that they now
have the insight that we have, but actually most of them
probably have just as little insight as they ever had about

(54:35):
how parenting should go. And so I think it really helps
to kind of adjust our expectations about what kind of
relationship with my parents is possible.
And if I'm looking at what I would be OK with and what I
would be happy with, all I can look at is what I can bring to
that to make that possible. But we still can't change them.

(54:59):
We can't, you know, we can't sort of magic some insight into
them that would, you know, make them the the parents we always
wanted them to be. But we can, we have this ability
to kind of choose to a degree, the kind of relationship we have
with them. You know, if that means less of
a relationship because they're terrible people them so be it.
Or if it means more of 1, then how do you create that now that

(55:20):
you're in that adult position? Like, if you're somebody who
grew up with dysfunctional parents or parents who maybe
didn't do a great job, where is the boundary between healing
from that and just scapegoating them for your problems?
Yeah, because that's a lot of the kind of social stuff, isn't
that, You know, your parents gotit wrong and did this and did

(55:42):
that and. You were raised by a narcissist.
Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah.
And you know, you know, you haveto heal and, and, and I guess
there's the second part of that that really gets me as well is
this, that you have to be healedbefore you can get into a
relationship with someone. Yeah.
Good luck. Me.
Yeah. Enjoy being alone.
Enjoy being alone. Bruce.
Your life. There's this kind of idea of

(56:05):
like, healed is like some sort of perfect human that you never
arrive at. And the other person has to be
healed too. They have to be disrespectful.
And yeah, it just doesn't happenlike that.
And, and it gives that impression as well that
relationships are, you know, 2 perfect human beings getting
together and living happily everafter.
And actually, relationships are not that.
They are two normal and normallyimperfect human beings who work

(56:32):
together to make the best of what they can with what they've
got, and in the process probablylearn a lot about themselves and
each other and how to make it work.
Yeah. Yeah.
OK, I got one more. I want to end on that.
It's a cheery note. Yeah, because you have a chapter
that says when you hate who you've become.

(56:54):
So let's talk about Go back to the darkness.
Here you have this little passage and I'm sorry if I'm
borrowing too much here, but it says you might tell yourself as
long as I am liked by everyone around me then I'm OK.
So you set to work on making sure that others think you are
helpful and kind and worthwhile.This is an impossible task to
sustain that will absorb as muchenergy as you're able to put

(57:16):
into it and much more. First of all, I feel attacked.
You don't know me. This was definitely something
though I don't know if I want to, if I would say, I push back
a little bit on because this wasdefinitely something where it's
like, yeah, I wanted, I didn't really like who I was.
So I'm going to show everybody that I'm actually, I'm helpful,
I'm worthwhile, I'm, I'm kind and all this.

(57:36):
And through that I, I feel like I was like, oh, OK, I was, I
started out doing that for otherpeople that, but then I found
actually, no, I am through thoseactions, I am a competent person
and I've built these skills and I'm OK with that.
And it doesn't have to be validated by someone else.
So, but I do think there are a lot of people who struggle with
that who, who don't like themselves and they think, well,

(57:58):
then I just need to do these things to make other people like
me and then I'll be fine gettingto that place of, you know,
perfect health. And like you were talking about
what do, what do you say to people like that?
Well, it's quite a sort of, I guess it's quite a complex
scenario in that the people like, like people like yourself,
where you, you experience something and then you you gain

(58:18):
from the insight that you get over time and you gain from all
the positive action that it led to and, and you learn and mature
as you go. And then there are other people
who feel that so strongly that it, it makes them vulnerable to
all sorts of problems in relationships with exploitation
or abuse or those kind of thingswhere they just have no, no

(58:43):
concept that their own judgementof things could be the right
one. Or, you know, everything is
outward or the agency is outward.
And, and it's a, it's a really dangerous scenario.
You know, if you can't advocate for yourself, it puts you at
risk of almost everything in relationships.
And so it's quite complex work to to sort of address when it's

(59:06):
that severe. But some of it is down to, you
know, like the assertiveness skills and changing that
communication. But also, you know, the problem
is rarely with the word no. The problem is with the feeling
that comes with it and you know,the gills and the shame of
putting your own needs 1st and those kind of things.
So again, it comes back to all the, the skills around dealing

(59:28):
with emotion and because when you, when you can accept that
emotions can also be an echo of the past, then they don't hold
you back so much. So, so when you're, you know,
your brain is constantly taking in information from the outside
world to make meaning things, but it's also taking information
from what your body's doing and your blood pressure and all
that, but it's also taking shortcuts.

(59:50):
So it's also taking in, you know, memories of when you felt
similar to this in the past and using that to help make sense of
whatever situation you're in now.
So if in the past it made sense for you to please everybody all
of the time, maybe it was dangerous not to, right?
That made sense. So those emotional experiences

(01:00:11):
are going to be just as strong as an adult in those kind of
difficult situations as they were as a child.
But it doesn't mean they now make sense to they might hold
you back and put you at risk, right?
So some of that work would be around recognizing that emotion
to be an echo of the past or something that made sense back

(01:00:34):
then but needs updating now so that you can act in line with
your new insight, despite the fact that the feeling of guilt
or shame is there. It's really easy for me to sit
here and say really hard to do in practice and takes people
time to work on it, but it's absolutely possible.
I'm just seeing, yeah, I've seenpeople change their lives with

(01:00:55):
it. Yeah, I think that that makes a
lot of sense to me too, because I think I did eventually realise
like, oh, this is all from emotions from the past or, or
echoes from the past like you'resaying.
And like, I didn't have to be boxed in with that.
Yeah, that's a good point. A lot of people get that with,
you know, everyone wants approval from their parents,
right? But if your parents are
particularly kind of difficult or highly critical or have their

(01:01:17):
own kind of issues, sometimes you then get to a point in
adulthood where you realise, I'mnot sure I need this approval
anymore. I've set up my own life, I've
got my own set of values. And there's this kind of
liberation in realising I'm I can, I can base my decisions on
those values and my family rather than constantly seeking
approval from parents. And I guess that's a normal sign

(01:01:39):
of maturity. Free therapy session, Yeah.
All right, well, I'm going to end our therapy relationship, I
feel. Completely healed I'm.
Completely healed. I'm ready to face the world.
Julie, thank you so much for coming out.
The book is Open Win. Which?

(01:02:01):
Where's my camera? I'll do.
There's my camera. Open Win.
It's available everywhere. Julie Smith.
Anything you want to add, Drew? I hope that's it.
That was fantastic. Are you?
You're healed too? I'm very much.
I'm in a better place in here. It's about time he's ready for a
relationship now. Yeah, yeah.
I'll find someone else to, thanks.

(01:02:21):
Hello guys. Thanks.
Subtle Art I'm not giving a fuckpodcast.
Is produced by Drew Bernie. It's.
Edited by Andrew Nishimura. Jessica Choi is our videographer
and sound engineer. Thank you for listening and we
will see you next week.

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