Mastering Resilience, AI’s Unstoppable Rise, and Can We Truly Change?

Resilience isn’t just about gritting your teeth and enduring pain—it’s about managing the stories you tell yourself. In this episode, I break down why most people get resilience wrong and how mastering the “second arrow” is the real key to bouncing back. We dive into post-traumatic growth, why caring about something bigger than yourself makes you stronger, and how focusing on what you can control changes everything.

We also talk about AI—how it’s not here to save or destroy humanity, but it is going to change everything. We look at how AI is already transforming creative and knowledge-based jobs, why you should be using it right now, and what you can do to stay ahead. Plus, we tackle the ultimate question: Can people change? That three-word question is lot more complex than it seems. Check it out.

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Chapters:

0:00 Mark feels the AGI—Drew does not

3:42 The Fck of the Week: Resilience

25:48 Brilliant or Bullsht: AI will doom/save us all

46:27 Q&A: Can people change?

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Theme song: Icarus Lives by Periphery, used with permission from Periphery.

Episode Transcript

(00:00):
Drew, have you felt the AGI yet?The AGI, yeah.
And I don't mean athletic greens.
You're an adjusted gross income.That's where my mind, God, I'm a
fucking nerd. Oh my God, that's right where my
brain went. Artificial general intelligence,
AGI Yeah, you know, have. I felt it.
Have you felt it? Do you know?

(00:21):
Do you know what I'm referring to?
I Is this a dirty joke? You're not up here?
What is this? So I felt AGI No so.
What do you mean? I I'm not referring the sex bots
or yeah. So like a year ago there was all
this speculation around open AIS, like new chat model and

(00:43):
that maybe, you know, there's like all this dumorism of like,
you know, are we going to, is the AI going to destroy the
world or whatever? And there was like this brief
period where where a bunch of the founders and top researchers
at Open AI left around the same time.
And around that time, 1, like one of the top guys posted on on
Twitter, he said, he said, feel the AGI and then he like

(01:06):
mysteriously left the company. And so there was all this
speculation and like conspiracy theories that like Open AI, Open
AI had invented artificial general intelligence.
And they? Were freaked out and they were
like trying to hide it but it has since become a meme of like
as we all like use AI more and more.
I felt the AGI like a month ago and I I couldn't tell you

(01:29):
exactly when I was using it, butI was like using it using AI for
something and I just kind of hadthis like sinking feeling in my
chest of like, why do anything like this like this thing?
This thing is going to soon be doing everything in the world of
value. So why try?

(01:52):
Why even like it was like this very it was this very dark and
like existential despair, but itimmediately flipped towards
like, Oh my God, I'm never goingto have to worry about anything
again because the AGI is just going to take care of me like
the way I take care of my dog. Like is any of this registering

(02:13):
with you at whatsoever? No, Oh my God, true.
I mean, I mean. We have so much to catch, catch
you up on. We do.
All right, maybe I'm never mind.You're getting a little ahead of
ourselves. The listeners understand some of
them. OK, if you felt the AGI leave a
comment felt the. AGI don't remember that.

(02:33):
If you have felt the AGI, leave a comment, tell us what it felt
like. Have you felt the AGI?
So it's like that deep inside you like that penetrating.
Yeah, that's what I was. That's what I thought you meant.
And so now I'm trying to sort that out from what the fuck, I'm
actually kind of supposed to think about this.
I don't know. OK, what?
What is this episode about? Well, we're going to talk about

(02:55):
a Gai later, but you? Got you.
Got a thing. A good thing.
Yeah. You, you, you got some spittle.
Oh God, I can't take you anywhere.
I know, Mark, let's get into thefuck of the week and then we'll
talk. We're going.
To talk about resilience becauseyou're going to need it when you
feel the AG is. That where you were going with
this? OK, that was all right, all
right. With the time, who's?

(03:17):
Steering this shit. It's 2025, it's 2025.
If you if you've not felt the AGI, you're not using AI enough
people. Andrew, roll the clip thing
where we do the fuck of the week.
Please, please, please. We're doing it.
Here we go. It's the Subtle Art of Not
Giving a Fuck podcast with your host Mark Manson.

(03:41):
All right. What are we doing?
The fuck of the week is resilience.
I want to talk a little bit about what resilience really is
because I think there's some misconception about that and
then how we can be more resilient in our lives if there
are concrete steps, maybe some models we can look at or
anything like that. So, but to start it off, let's
talk about what resilience is. Maybe a good way to do that is

(04:04):
what do you think most people get wrong about resilience?
I think what most people get wrong about resilience is that
they think it's just about enduring pain for an extended
period of time, that it's just, it's, that's not resilience,
it's pure suffering. OK.
I, I think a, a large part of resilience is actually kind of
there's, there's a bit of a mental gymnastics that takes

(04:26):
place of like reorienting how you understand the experience
that you're having so that you suffer less from it.
So one thing that I talk about alot is, is that there's this
allegory from Buddhism called the two arrows, right?
And the Buddha said that every time you experience pain, you're
it's like getting shot by two different arrows.
And the first arrow is the physical pain, You know, it's

(04:48):
the arrow piercing your skin. But the second arrow is the
narrative that we create around the first arrow, right?
So the first arrow is inevitable, but it's also
temporary. But the second arrow, it's not
inevitable. We created ourselves.
And it's also not temporary if we don't let it be, right?

(05:08):
So it's like we all have first arrows that happened to us years
and years ago, like pains, struggles that we went through,
embarrassments, failures, and all of those momentary pains
went away at some point. Most of us at some point in our
lives created narratives around that pain and told us stories

(05:30):
about ourselves that enhanced multiplied the pain and
multiplied the suffering and made it more difficult to bounce
back from it. Right.
So I think what most people get wrong is they think resilience
is more about sustaining the first arrow, like just knowing
how to get shot and grit your teeth and, and deal with it.
But really what resilience is, is managing the second arrow is

(05:52):
not not spinning up the the stories that torture yourself
and managing those narratives and stories in a way that like
you don't make things harder on yourself that you can actually
like, maybe propel yourself forward using that pain.
Right, yeah. And you wrote an article about
basically about post traumatic growth long time ago, how to

(06:13):
grow from your pain or somethingalong those lines.
And the big point in that was just that it's not, it's not the
the pain or the trauma itself. That's the even the thing to
focus on or the thing that catalyzes change is what you do
afterwards. And I think that's a big, we'll,
we'll probably come back to thattime and time again in this
discussion. But that's a huge, huge point

(06:33):
that I think a lot of people miss is that it's not, yeah,
it's not the pain that makes youstronger or anything like that.
It's what you do in reaction to it.
Right. It's the the, it's the meaning
that you attach to it. And there are certain types of
meaning that you can attach to pain that can actually be
leveraged to grow. OK.
Yeah, yeah. OK.
Well, you, you did, you wrote this article too on on
resilience as well and conquering adversity and all

(06:55):
this. And there was this fun little
experiment you went through or Ithink this was the impetus for
the article anyways, when you were testing all these like
mental health apps, Yes, can. Do you want to go into that?
Sure. What happened?
This was probably four or five years ago.
It was actually during the pandemic, so I briefly became
really interested in, in potentially developing like some

(07:17):
sort of mental health app or personal growth app.
And so I was testing all the different apps on the market and
there are tons of them, like dozens and dozens and dozens.
And so I was logging on to all of these and it, I was just
quickly intensely disappointed because every single one
basically had the same functionality, which is it
immediately validated whatever Isaid, you know, so if I got on

(07:40):
and said, oh, what are you dealing with today?
And I'm like, I'm a little bit anxious about this podcast,
right? The first thing it would say is
like, I know being anxious is very hard.
Is there anything else you'd like to tell me about your
anxiety? And then, you know, I'd tell it
something else. And I'm like, I'm so sorry
you're feeling that way. It's really hard being anxious,

(08:01):
isn't it? Mark, tell me more about your
feelings. And it just went on and on and
on. And it just became this like
circle jerk of like, Oh my God, tell me how you feel.
It must be so hard to be you. Oh, you're so special.
I wish you deserve so much better.
And it and like, I found it so intensely unhelpful and in some

(08:22):
ways counterproductive because like, don't get me wrong, I
understand that some people whenthey're in a lot of pain, they
do need their emotions validatedto a certain extent.
But very quickly you need to getpast that emotional validation
and get into the second arrow, get into the meaning of like,
OK, what is it about this podcast that you feel anxious
about? Do you think you're going to
fail at it? Do you think people are going to

(08:44):
laugh at you? Do you think you're under
prepared? Do you think Drew is going to be
a meanie? Like, what is it that is
intimidating you? Right?
And then let's pick apart that narrative and see if there's any
any evidence for it or any truthbehind it or if you're just kind
of being irrational and like blowing things up in your head.
There was none of that. It was all just like, oh, I'm so

(09:05):
sorry you feel bad here. Here's a balloon image to make
you feel better. It was beyond useless.
It was, it was insulting to a certain extent.
Essentially that what you're saying, you don't build
psychological resilience by feeling good all the time.
You build psychological resilience by getting better at
feeling bad. That's you've said that in
various ways throughout the years.

(09:26):
And I think that's the the main take away about what resilience
really is. This is not, hey, how do I just
feel better or, or how do I, yeah, remove that pain to the
first arrow. You don't.
It's that second. Arrow it's you alter your
orientation to the pain, right? It's like understanding, like
instead of being like, Oh my God, it's the first arrow.
This is horrible. Why does this happen to me?

(09:48):
I don't deserve this, right? Like that's kind of our default
reaction. It's instead looking at it and
saying, oh, it's another first arrow.
Well, I've dealt with lots of these before.
I'm sure I can deal with this one.
What can I learn from this firstarrow?
What, what mistakes that I made?How can I get better?
It's asking good questions. It's being realistic about
orienting yourself, like understanding that a lot of life

(10:09):
is random. Tragedy strikes everybody, you
know, everybody screws up and fails at some point.
There's nothing unique or special about your pain.
There's no like pre predestined universe has decided you get to
feel pain. Now it's like this is life dude.
Like everybody's everybody's struggling, everybody's going
through a lot. So let's just try to be as as

(10:31):
clear eyed and realistic as possible about that struggle and
figure out like, what are what are some useful things that we
can do in that moment? Right.
Well, what are some of those useful things, Mark, You had
some some recommendations, a fewtips to help you out.
You actually had five that I've gathered from various spots.
So I so one of those, the first one of those being care about

(10:54):
something greater than yourself.Yeah.
I, I, I personally think, and Arthur Brooks was on a while
back and he talked about this aswell as like, you know, the
optimal mental health kind of demands that we find something
that we care about more than ourselves.
And there are a few reasons for that.
One is it just imbues kind of our entire lives with meaning,

(11:15):
you know, and that, that could be raising a family, it could be
a career, it could be a mission,it could be a, a social 'cause
it, it could be a lot of things,but it's like, it could be a
religion. It like ultimately you have to
find something in your life that, that it, that is so
important that it, that it deserves to outlast you.
And but the other benefit from that is that it, it helps

(11:38):
ameliorate the downsides of life, right?
So it's like if you're just the center of everything in your
life, as soon as something bad happens, man, you're going to
have a really hard time coping with that.
But if you've got some higher mission or higher purpose that
you're you're aiming for and you're pushing for when
something goes wrong, that mission or purpose is going to
is going to keep everything oriented in the right direction,

(12:01):
right? It's going to, it's going to
pull you out of the muck. It's going to be the rope that
kind of pulls you out of the muck because it will force you
because it is more important than you and your feelings.
It will force you to find ways to handle and deal with your
feelings so that you can move onand and continue to move
forward. Yeah, yeah.
Again, the research backs all that up too.
If you are more religious, people tend to be a little bit

(12:24):
more resilient or people who areattached to causes, big causes
that are outside of themselves that that requires them some
sort of sacrifice that they haveto contribute.
So yeah, that's. And by the way, like
anecdotally, I've noticed this just, you know, watching so many
of my friends have kids. Oh yeah.

(12:44):
They just talking to them like this is, this is anecdotally,
this is probably the biggest shift I've seen and all the
people that I've seen have kids is that they say they're like,
for the first time in my life, there's something that is way
more important than me, that I care about way more than myself.
And I, I've, I've, I've talked to them and they've said like,
yeah, it's kind of easier to deal with bullshit now because

(13:05):
it's, it's not about me. Yeah, it's very clarifying.
Yeah, exactly. Like I now I always know, you
know, what I need to do, why I need to get back up and try
again, right? And it's it's, there's something
powerful to that. Yeah, yeah.
Well, that kind of gets right inthe second one too, which is
focus on what you can control. And I'll just say up front that

(13:26):
research says if you have more of an internal locus of control
and like focus on the things youcan't control, you're more
resilient. What do you think that is?
Well, this is the old stoic thing, right?
It's, it's, you know, focus on what you can can control and
then like let go of what you can't control.
I, I think there's just like a real practicality in that and
that, you know, a huge amount ofour well-being is, is driven

(13:47):
through a sense of agency, feel like a feeling that like we
have, we are determining the outcomes in our lives.
And so if you are constantly focusing on factors that you
cannot influence or you cannot control, you're removing that
sense of agency from yourself. Whereas when you are focusing on
the things in front of you that you can control, you're

(14:08):
amplifying that sense of agency.And so aside from it just
improving mental well-being, like it's also just practical,
right? Because it's, if you're
constantly focusing on stuff that's outside of your control,
then you're, you're essentially wasting attention and energy,
right? So you're going to get less
done, you're going to be less influential, you're, you're

(14:28):
going to make less progress, right?
And progress also feels good. So aside from just the sense of
agency, you also get a greater sense of progress and growth and
feeling as though like your life's actually moving
somewhere. Yeah.
This next one was inward optimism, outward pessimism.
And generally kind of you could kind of characterize this as
negative visualization a little bit, sure.

(14:49):
But then there's also the inwardoptimism part of that.
So what do you mean by that? This came from a reader
question, like on a really earlynewsletter.
Like this was probably a newsletter in like 2016 or 2017
and it was asking me, should yoube an optimist or a pessimist?
Like it's like pessimists are going to be better prepared when
things go wrong, but an optimistis going to like have a higher

(15:11):
expectation of success. So like what is actually better?
And it sent me down a research rabbit hole.
And basically the, the conclusion I came to is, is
what's there is an inward optimist, outward pessimist,
which is that generally speaking, people who expect good
performance from themselves achieve better performance.
The more you think yourself capable of doing something, the

(15:33):
more likely you are to end up doing it.
This kind of comes back to the agency thing, but also to the
negative visualization point. People who mentally rehearse
problems that could occur or things that could go wrong, the
more prepared they are when things do go wrong, right?
So, and I think if, and just kind of logically, if you think

(15:55):
about it, if you think about theleast effective people in the
world, like think about the least effective people you know
in your life, right, chances arethey drastically underestimate
their own power and agency, right?
They think they can't do anything when actually they can.
And generally they overestimate how the outside world should go,

(16:16):
right? They expect everything in their
environment to work perfectly and go correctly and for nothing
to go wrong and no inconvenienceis to happen, right?
Both of those just lead to a lotof pain and suffering, right?
So it's if you flip those around, expect a lot from
yourself and then prepare for the worst with everybody else.

(16:38):
And that's seems to be the most effective orientation I have
with the world. Yeah.
But yeah, Tim Ferriss popularized that maybe like 10
or 12 years ago. And, and, and it's, yeah, it's
super useful. And he, I think the way he says
it is he's like, if you want to do something and you're afraid
to do it, like mentally go through the worst possible

(17:00):
outcome and like, really write it out.
Like, OK, if this goes as bad asit possibly can, here's how
people are going to react. Here's how my life is going to
change here. Here are all of the things I'm
going to have to deal with, all the fallout that's going to
happen, all the lessons I'm going to have to learn An he
said. That like 95% of the time when

(17:21):
you do this exercise as you're writing, you realize you're
like, this isn't that bad, Yeah.This is what I started using
just within the last few months to worst case scenario.
Let's really think this through.Yeah, I'm like, oh, I can do
that. Yeah.
It's like, oh, I can handle thatactually.
OK. Oh.
These people over here are goingto hate me if I do this.
I don't give a shit. Cool.
But I'm glad they do, you know? Yeah, definitely, definitely.

(17:42):
That's a that's a good one. But this next one's kind of
related to that, too. Then the find your inner
masochist. So you posted this on social
media idea one time you said thesick and twisted truth about
human nature is that as much as we crave feeling good all the
time, there's a small part of usthat kind of likes the pain and
the struggles. Embrace it.
Yeah, Hit me, Daddy. Feel the AGI.

(18:02):
Feel the AGI deep inside you. No, it's funny.
Whenever I give talks, this is this is always like a hit line,
you know, It's like I, I I'm like up on stage and I call the
audience a bunch of masochists. And then I start, I tell them to
like, spake me, if you can imagine I'm doing this, I'm
doing it. I'll, I'll, I'll do this in like
a conference of like, you know, insurance brokers or something.

(18:25):
And it's just like this awkward laughing that goes on in the
audience. Oh God, we don't have real jobs.
Thank me, Daddy. So here's the thing.
This is actually good because this ties together a few of the
threads that we've talked about.So if you find some sort of
higher mission or purpose in your life, something you truly

(18:46):
believe is more important than yourself, something really
interesting happens, which is that the struggles that start
happening along the way, you kind of start relishing them a
little bit. Like it's, it's, there's a
obviously you don't want that struggle, but like there's a, a
weird kind of, I've talked to other authors about this, about
how like, like the struggle of writing a book is fucking real.

(19:09):
Like it is mentally one of the most difficult things I've ever
done in my life. But like when I hang out with
other authors and we talk about writing a book or like I hang
out with an author and he's like, like really deep in the
middle of a first draft and justhating his life.
There's like this romanticism about it.
It's just like, oh, man. Oh yeah.
I remember, man, back in 2019, Iwas like writing this book and

(19:31):
oh God, I was like staying up till 2 AMI fucking like woke up
middle of the night. Like it just, I think
everybody's got something like that, but that like you kind of
secretly really like it and and there's a lot of pride and
identity around it, right? Like it's like, OK, yeah, I
really suffered from for what I achieved.

(19:52):
And I think, you know, there's alittle bit of a, you know, I
look at, I look at like some of the, there's a little bit of
like porn around stuff like NavySEAL training and special forces
and. And stuff like that.
And I, and I think a lot of thatis this like it's, it's there's
this a little bit of a masochismof, of like, you know, seeing

(20:14):
how seeing what you're made of, seeing how much you can endure
and knowing it's for a really, really good cause or purpose.
Like they're like that just hitsa sweet spot in the human brain
that we secretly kind of relish it.
And even when we're in the thickof it, you're like, yeah, I'm
glad. I kind of I'm feeling this right
now. Yeah, I've, I've seen you.

(20:35):
We've had people on the podcast who were like in the middle of
writing a book or something likethat, and you just perk right up
and you're like, Oh yeah, yeah. Tell me.
Right. Yeah, yeah.
Spank me, daddy. Yeah, yeah.
How are you getting? Spanked.
Tell me all. That like light up like wait,
you are oh. It is, it's like a secret.
I I imagine it's similar. I don't know.
I imagine it's similar like military veterans or something,
you know, it's like just like trading stories.

(20:56):
Yeah, authors, they get this weird, you know, it's like,
how's the draft going, dude? Like, oh man, I'm like, I've got
this chapter 8 and it's like none of it's making sense.
And like, fuck, I think I'm going to have to rewrite the,
the, the first part again. And like, and I'm just like, Oh
yeah, yeah, yeah, I hear you, buddy.
I hear you. You know, put your arm around
and was like, I've been there, dude.
You're like, you're comforting them, but you're actually like,

(21:17):
Oh yeah, yeah. I mean, there's.
There's also like a sick like, you know.
Well, OK, so that gets into the last one actually too, which is
never suffer alone. And actually, so this is,
there's a, there's a social aspect to this in the research,
one of the repeatedly, one of the findings they find
repeatedly is that having socialsupport is like, that's a

(21:40):
bedrock resilience. And I think that gets overlooked
a lot too. People are like, how can I be
resilient? How can I conquer my adversity
in this? Like you don't, you do it with
other people. And I think having the other
people with you adds to that sense of meaning and purpose as
well, right? Because it's like, ultimately we
are social creatures and it's just having people who are on

(22:02):
the same path and who are enduring the same pain and
hardship that we're enduring. And like, it amplifies that
sense of, of purpose and, and itmakes things that much easier.
Maybe that's why I relish it with authors too, you know, like
it. It.
I'm sure it is. Yeah.
You know, it, it is like, I empathize with where they are.
And I know that it's like, if I can just make them feel like

(22:22):
they're not alone, then it like relieves a little bit of that
burden for them. Yeah.
Actually, I had this conversation like a year ago
with a friend of mine. Maybe it was like a family
member, but I was in a period. I was in one of those periods
with the business where I was just working like an insane
person. And, and I was talking to to
somebody and they're like, you know, how are things going?
I'm like, I'm like, I'm working a lot, you know, it's been a

(22:45):
lot. And they're like, well, tell me
about that, you know, and I started talking about it and
like, yeah, I'm like working weekends and, you know, probably
at least one evening each week and, you know, probably put in
7075 hours a week at least. And, you know, but it's
temporary and we're scaling up and we're doing this.
We're like launching a bunch of stuff and, and it was funny

(23:08):
because they started trying to give me like work life balance
advice and I was like, they got like 2 minutes into it.
I'm like, actually, I don't wantthem.
Fine. I'm like, I'm like, don't get me
wrong, I'm suffering, but I really like suffering this way.
Like this is, this is, I'm happywith this stress in my life.
And, and I, I, I also know it's temporary.

(23:29):
So I'm like willing to make thistrade off for a short period of
time. So I suppose that's another way
to look at at the resilience equation is like if you can, if
it's possible to view the struggle in your life as a trade
off for something greater, whether it's in the future or
for somebody else that you care about or from, for some 'cause
that you care about. As long as it feels like there's

(23:49):
a good trade off happening, thenyou'll be OK with it.
Yeah, you'll endure it. Yeah, for sure.
Yeah. OK.
That's all I got for this section I think.
Thank you for listening to my presentation.
We'll be right back after these messages.
And Mark will make you feel the AGM when you come.
Back bend over. This episode is brought to you

(24:13):
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I hit that wall where focus feels about as achievable as
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(24:36):
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Oh yeah, I've tried everything. I've used those study beats,
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So give your brain the upgrade it deserves.
We are back with the AGI. We are and that is what we're
talking about. We're talking about AI and a
little bit different for the billionaire bullshit this week.
But is one of these statements brilliant and one of them

(26:02):
bullshit? Or we can debate AI will doom
humanity or AI will save humanity.
Neither. OK.
Neither. Let's get into what's brilliant
and bullshit about this well. I'm glad we're coming back to
this because we talked about AIAfew months.
December, yeah. Yeah, a few months.
Ago it was really around creativity was what the kind of
centered around but. Yeah, it was about how it was

(26:22):
going to affect our industry, right?
But I mean, that was December and in AI age that was, you
know, it's. Already changed.
Two months ago. Three months.
Yeah. And I will say just just in the
last month, I've probably used, I mean, I've been using AI most
of the day, every day in the last month.
I have been, I've been using it every day and Matt has been

(26:43):
using it more and more. So yeah, yeah, same.
Is it going to doom humanity? No.
Is it going to save humanity? No.
Things never turn out as bad as you think they're going to turn
on. They never end up as good as you
hoped, right. They'll end up, you know, so
it's and humans are always goingto human right.
So it's like as soon as if AGI like let's imagine that some

(27:04):
super AI like solved every humanproblem in existence. 3 minutes
later, we'd be dissatisfied and like want something that the AI
can't provide for us because that's just how we're built.
That's human nature. So I was telling a friend about
this it one. This is one thing I'm starting
to notice, like to kind of walk through the my personal AI
timeline. You know, ChatGPT came out end

(27:25):
of 23 and it felt like a cool party trick.
Yeah. Like, it was like, OK, this is
fun. I can have it write poetry or
whatever. But it was like any, any time I
tried to get it to do serious work, it was pretty mediocre.
And then GGBT 4 came and there were some uses.
It was OK for brainstorming somestuff.

(27:48):
And, you know, occasionally it could like point you in the
right direction, maybe give you an idea or something, but still
like a very, you know, basic tool.
At some point in the last three months, it's, it feels like it
turned a corner. And now it just feels absolutely
indispensable for the first time.
Like I said, I felt the AGI about a month ago.

(28:11):
It's like really just in the last few weeks, it feels like,
OK, this does feel like it's going to kind of take over
everything. Like it's going to integrate
into every aspect of our lives and disrupt and displace a huge
amount of what most people spendtheir time doing probably the
most since like the Internet in the 90s.

(28:32):
I was telling a friend recently,I said, you know, I've, I've
lived, I've now lived through, Iguess 4 technological
revolutions. And I said the, the thing that
feels different about this one is like, the more I use it, the
more I feel like I should be using it.
Like I remember when when mobilecame around, like iPhones were

(28:54):
super cool. But you're like, God, I should
be doing something else. Exactly.
Exactly. And it was the same with the
Internet and it was the same with social media.
And like this is the first time that like when I'm, when I'm not
using AAI, I'm like, I should just be doing this with the AI.
Like like it'd be so much easierand faster and more efficient.

(29:18):
I've actually like I've hit the point with non fiction books.
Like I think books might be cooked dude.
I'd say the last like 5 to 10 non fiction books I've read,
I've gotten really impatient part way through and it took me
a while to realize that it's like I'm so accustomed to just
chatting with a knowledge base and having the answer like

(29:38):
immediately delivered to me withall sorts of links and
references and being able to like like I start reading a non
fiction book and I get 2 chapters in and I'm like, this
is really slow. Like, I wish you'd just get to
what I want to know. And so I'm already feeling my
brain being trained that way. And I like, and when I think
about it, like as the knowledge,like the data sets get better
and as the user experience gets better, I could really see books

(30:03):
feeling as though they're like just a clunky, inefficient, like
medium for information transfer.And that freaks me out as an
author a little bit, right? The other thing I don't know if
you've messed around with like these like AI companion apps at
all. I.
Haven't really, no, I know you have.
They're strange, but it took me a while to kind of under like I

(30:26):
I've been using them just because I want to understand
them. Like apparently like the, the,
the usage rate, like the people who use them, they like, use
them an absurd amount, especially young people like
Jen's ears, like the usage ratesare through the roof.
And it's like very reminiscent if you look at the data on like
how much they use them or like the usage per session.
It's very reminiscent of like social media in the early days,

(30:48):
like Facebook right when it cameout.
So I've been like messing aroundwith those and they have a bad
rap because I think the the Super early adopters were just
like creepy horny dudes who wanted to like sex with an AI
girlfriend. And there's definitely that.
If, if that's your thing, if youwant to go feel that AGI, you
can go feel it. That's where technology always

(31:10):
starts out, too. Exactly dude, porn is always the
first thing in any any medium. But what like if you actually go
mess around with it? So like one of the one of the
the most popular companion apps I think called character AI in
one of the most popular like conversations.
It's just called the Hogwarts. And it basically just drops you

(31:31):
into a Harry Potter fan fiction.It says like you're a new
student at Hogwarts. This is your first day and you
can write. It'll give you like, you know,
part of the story and then you get to add whatever you want to
it. And then it'll like it'll keep
adapting to your version of the story.
Oh, that's kind of cool. So it's like an interactive
novel, right. So it's like it's.
Like a choose your own adventure, but like real time.

(31:52):
Real time and it's like infinitedecision trees.
That's pretty cool. I love choose your own
adventure. Back.
It's sick. It's so cool.
That's pretty. Cool.
And so I've actually hit this realization just in the last few
days of like a this feels like anew medium like it.
It feels like a new form of entertainment entirely.
It's not like a better version of books or a better version of

(32:15):
movies. It's it's like a just a
completely category. It's a new category all on all
of its own. But then I also look at it and
I'm like, fuck, man. Like, why read a novel when you
can be in the novel? Yeah, you know, and.
It's a personalized novel. It's a personalized novel, so
it's like you can take it any direct, like, if you don't like
a character, kill him. You can get rid of him.

(32:35):
Yeah. You'll be like, I don't want to
talk to that guy anymore. I want to hang out with this
character. OK.
And then it completely you and Icould like technically like do
this the same AI novel and have completely different storylines.
Yeah, this. That's wild.
OK. Yeah, it is going to disrupt and
change everything on a scale that like, I think the
internet's probably the only, only comparable thing.

(32:56):
Right, yeah. The you, you talk about like the
rate of adoption of these thingstoo, which is insane.
So I think there's kind of, there's a few different kind of
groups of people who see this. Some people just aren't even
using it right now. I can, I have a whole bunch of
stats here. I'm not going to go through them
all, but like there's a lot of people who still aren't using
them. But the adoption, it's a lot of
people are using them really coming around.
Then there's people who used them early on and they thought

(33:17):
they sucked and they just haven't went back yet.
I think that's a mistake, probably.
Totally. If you're one of those people,
you should get back on and startmessing with it.
Which you made that point in thelast time we talked about AI on
here was actually what you said.If you're not using it, you're
dumb, is what you said. Because that was, that was.
Me insult my audience that that would never happen, That didn't.
Go over well with some people. Surprise, surprise.

(33:40):
But yeah, I, I think I do want to talk about the two, what the
average person can do right now.What's going to prepare us best
for this, this crazy world that you're, I think you're, you're
more into it than anybody. I know you've, you've dove into
AI more than anybody. I've been, I use it all the
time, but I feel like I'm still surface level.
Very much so. So if there's somebody out there

(34:01):
who I don't know, doesn't reallyeven understand it or they use
it a little bit and they're like, yeah, it's kind of fun or
whatever. But they just, they'll see it as
a toy. They see it as social media, you
know, the new version of what orwhatever.
What? What do you think we need to be
doing right now? I think the best thing you can
do is just set aside, take like a Saturday morning or something,
block off 3 hours and just make yourself play around with it.

(34:25):
It is a slow burn. It is like you do kind of have
to learn how to use it and it took me a long time to realize
as well is that like you get, the quality of the output is
directly proportional to qualityof the input.
Which is just like a relationship you have with
anybody else. Exactly, you have to.
Treat it like that. So like, if you just show up and
you're like, give me a new workout routine, it'll give you

(34:45):
the most bland blase. Yeah, it's going to be useless.
You be like, wow, this sucks. Why would anybody use this?
But if you go to it and you're like, look, I'm a 40 year old
male. I have a history of lower back
injuries. These are my PR weights.
These are this is how much I weigh.
These are my goals for the year.This is my schedule.
This is how much time I have. This is roughly how much protein

(35:08):
I'm eating. Can you design a four day split
workout routine that changes every quarter to keep things
novel and will increase, ideallyincrease my PRS by 10 to 12%
over the course of the next year?
It will give you the most fucking incredible output.

(35:30):
It will like, and it'll break everything down for you.
And you can ask it for details. You can be like, well, why did
you, why did you pick front squats instead of back squats?
Or like, what was the reasoning for, you know, adding having
this day off instead of that dayoff And it'll explain it to you.
It's like having a really great fitness coach just right in
front of you. And so it's, it's a combination

(35:51):
of like A being really creative with what you ask it because it,
it literally can talk to you about anything.
And then B, giving it really good inputs, like take the extra
time to prompt it well and like really give it specific details.
One thing you can do, and you suspect that the prompt's not
great, you can actually ask it. What can I do to improve my

(36:11):
prompts so that you give me better information and it will
tell you what you should have asked?
It Yeah. Which is crazy.
It's absolutely crazy. Like I asked it, I, I, I asked
it really. Feel in the AGI there.
Seriously, though, so I asked ita bunch of questions about
social media strategy a couple weeks ago and it like gave me

(36:33):
some pretty, some pretty boring ads.
Like it was like kind of what a generic like any, anything that
you would see on Twitter or or Instagram, like that kind of
advice. And I was like, well, this isn't
very useful. And then so I asked it.
I was like, I was like, OK, well, what should I be asking
you that I'm not? And it like gave me this list of

(36:54):
12 different things and it was like, well, tell me about your
audience. What, what are the demographics?
Tell me about you like how, what's your relationship like
with them? What platforms are you primarily
focused on? Like what are you converting
them to? Like where are you trying to
promote a podcast? Are you trying to promote a
YouTube video or do you want them on your newsletter?
Like it was like having a hiringa business consultant.

(37:15):
It was crazy. So that would be my
recommendation to anybody like think about whatever, whatever
what's the area in your life that like you know, I gave the
workout example like that. That workout example is, is a
prompt. I gave it like just a couple
days ago. Think about the thing in your

(37:35):
life that you want to improve orthat you want to work on, but
you just like you haven't had the time to like really dig into
it or do the research or go talkto somebody or like whatever.
And just like, take a couple hours on a Saturday morning and
just just go hard with ChatGPT on it and you'll be shocked how

(37:55):
far you'll get. OK, yeah, OK.
So you've kind of you've made a bull case there.
Yes. Somebody's going to listen to
that though, and they're going to say, OK, Mark, so you just
said that writers, personal trainers, you know, social media
consultants, but they're not going to be needed.
So there's going to be people out there saying, well, what the

(38:16):
fuck am I going to do? Then?
How, how am I going to pay for all these models, AI models in
the 1st place if I'm not going to have a job?
You posted, you've been very open with the rest of the team
about the AI that you use and everything like that.
And you say, OK, I need you guysto start using this.
You posted this announcement andimmediately one of the reactions
was that was a great postmark. I thought you were going to end

(38:37):
it with you're all fire, which Iand that is like, I mean, part
of it is whenever a new technology comes along, society
freaks out and say, well, what are humans going to be needed
for you? It's like if you don't need
humans to shovel the shit anymore, like what are we useful
for? Well, we found something else to
be useful for. What are we going to be useful
for if AI takes all the creativity, the creative jobs or

(39:00):
the the knowledge jobs? Because that's what it's going
after right now too. It's not going after the the the
blue collar jobs really right now, yeah.
Your plumber's fine. Yeah, yeah.
Or or the people who are doing real high end coding or anything
like that. It's not going after that.
What are the rest of us supposedto do?
I personally believe that like scarcity never disappears, it
just gets displaced, right? So it's like anytime a

(39:21):
technology is invented that solves scarcity in one place, it
creates scarcity somewhere else.And So what I've been asking
myself is like, where is the newscarcity, right.
So if, if essentially knowledge is, is, is universal and
immediate, like if everybody in the world has access to all of
human knowledge more or less instantaneously, knowledge is no

(39:46):
longer the scarcity, which is great.
It's all it like that's a massive unlock for humanity.
But then it, it forces the question, where is the new
scarcity? And I have a lot of ideas on
this. I do think, I do think human
connection in person, human connection is going to go up in

(40:08):
value quite a bit. I think we're probably entering
a world where most, like anytimewe have to do anything involving
any sort of creativity or information whatsoever, we're
going to be on a screen. I mean, we already are to a
certain extent, but I think it'sonly going to be more so.
And. And I think it's just the, the
in person sense of community andconnection is the premium is

(40:32):
going to put on that is going togo through the roof.
And so if, if you just think about things like, I don't know,
clubs, yoga classes, fitness groups, you know, basically
anything, you know, events, concerts, anything, any excuse
to get people in a room togetherdoing the same thing at the same
time, that's the new scarcity. Because everything's,

(40:53):
everything's going to be available everywhere for
everybody except for being next to another human being.
Like that is the only thing that's not going to be scaled
infinitely for everybody. But like, I don't know, there,
there are, there's a lot of debate within like AI
researchers of, of, you know, how creative can they get?
Like right now they're just kindof reshuffling and regurgitating

(41:16):
human information. And so any, any apparent
creativity is just an illusion created by like just remixing
previous human information. So I, I, I don't know.
I, I don't know. So what do you think?
What should people be most concerned with?
I think like what's the, what isthe biggest danger for the

(41:38):
average person? It's just saying we're not
talking about like AI coming andyou know, taking over the world
and enslaving us or anything unnecessary like that.
But within, you know, the near to medium term future, what
should be our biggest concern around it?
The biggest concern should be not being aware of it.
Like if you are, I'd say if you're sleeping on it, if you,
unless you are at the end of your career, like I'd say

(41:59):
anybody under 55 or 60, like yougot to be using this stuff
because it, it is, it'll will eventually come for your
industry. Yeah, it's coming for ours
first, but it's going to come for everybody's at some point.
And so at least if you're aware of what it is, how to use it,
you'll have a fighting chance essentially like, or you'll,

(42:21):
you'll know how to adapt. Like I think what will happen in
a lot of industries, and I do think this will happen in ours
as well, is that like AI is not going to replace you and me.
What it'll do is it'll make you and me much more effective,
right? It'll make us, it'll make it
easier to scale ourselves, right?
So it's like instead of taking three days to produce, you know,
a podcast outline and a script it, it will take 30 minutes,

(42:44):
right? And so we could potentially
produce 10 times more podcasts with the same amount of time and
effort. And it it's just because it's
people who know how to use it well are going to be 10 times
more effective. So if you have 1010 engineers in
an AI world, it's the best engineer.
It's just going to they're just going to let the 9 worst ones
go. Yeah, one of those, just an

(43:07):
example of this, I think it was just the other day you came to
me and you, you had some research project and you showed
me the output of this and something like 42 sources,
something like that. Deep research.
Yeah, deep research. OK, It's 42 resources, something
along those lines, 40 some resources, it gave you a bias

(43:27):
score for each one of them. It gave you a summary of each
one of them, kind of the qualityof that research, all of this.
You told me it took 8 minutes. I, I took one look at that and I
told you that would take me a week working on it full time.
So if, yeah, if you're sleeping on this, you know, you hired me
10 years ago, a little over 10 years ago now.
You wouldn't have hired me back then, I don't think.

(43:49):
My job? No, you wouldn't have been
necessary. Yeah, no context for listeners.
I hired Drew as my first research assistant 10 years ago,
former PhD student in neuroscience.
And yeah, open AI deep research gave me a research summary as
good as No offense, anything. Yeah, anything you produced.
I saw it and I'm just like. Anything you produced in 8
minutes, Yeah, yeah, and yeah, it's insane.

(44:12):
And it's like every month there's.
Something like that. New like that?
Yeah, yeah. And I think that what I walked
away from though, from that conversation we had about that
was not to like freak the fuck out like I think a lot of people
are right now. It's more to understand that,
oh, this frees me up. I got to figure something else
out new, which is what we have to do every single time we have

(44:32):
a big technological. Individual feel the AGIA.
GI deep inside you and we will get.
There, the deep research inside you.
All right. On that note, we'll be right
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(46:20):
There's also a 90 day money backguarantee so you have nothing to
lose. All right, we're back.
What I want to know, Drew, is when is an AI going to be able
to like sit in this hot fucking room and and shoot for me?
I. Mean at the rate things are
going. I I've got a very comfy bed that

(46:42):
needs me to be in it. You'd go crazy.
You would go insane. That wouldn't help at all.
That's true. Yeah, it is true.
That is the we're going to have to figure out what to do with it
anyway. Anyway, the questions this week
question, this one comes from Naomi.
It's a three word question mark.OK, can people change?

(47:02):
The the perennial question. I mean, obviously we're sitting
here, yeah, opining on all of these different.
You know what I love too is that90% of the time the person who
asked this, it has nothing to dowith themselves.
It's because there's some shithead in their life.
Oh, I hadn't thought about. That that they love and care
about. I hadn't thought about that.

(47:23):
And have like run their run out of patience and they're just
like, is there any point in still trying?
This is it's a simple question. It's there's a, it's a.
It's a very deep and complex answer.
Literally thousands of years of philosophy and and science guys,
Yeah. My personal view is that it will
first of all, it define, it depends on how you define a
person. So there are certain things that

(47:45):
generally don't change, right. There are certain kind of
inherent personality traits thatdon't really change.
They they'll change a little bitover the course of your entire
life, but like on a day-to-day, month to month, year to year
basis, they they don't really shift a whole lot.
So like, if you are a very detail oriented person, there is

(48:06):
probably not a world where you are not a detail oriented
person. If you are an extremely
extroverted person, there's probably not a world where
you're not an extroverted person.
There. There's, there's a handful of
personality traits that seem to be just kind of baked into us
through some combination of genetics and and upbringing that
by the time we're an adult, that's just kind of who we are

(48:27):
and we have certain tendencies and proclivities and preferences
that just don't really go away. So there's that.
There's like that component of it that said our beliefs can
change, our attitudes can change, our behavior sure as
shit can change, our thoughts and ideas can change, right.

(48:47):
So it really depends on what youmean by a person.
So there are a number of things about them that are probably not
going to shift, but those thingsare not determinant, right?
Like I can be a very detailed oriented person or I can be like
a morning person. That that's a preference.
That's like a predisposition towards something.

(49:08):
There's some people who are predisposed towards addictive
behaviors. There's some people who are
predisposed towards antisocial behaviors.
There's some people who are predisposed towards being very
altruistic and selfless. But those are predispositions.
Those are not. Those don't determine your
thoughts, beliefs, and behavior.The thoughts, beliefs, and
behavior can always be shifted. They can always change a sub

(49:31):
version of this question or sub question that is avert.
Another version of this questionthat's maybe even more important
is can a person change if they don't want to change?
Oh, OK, yeah. To that I would say no.
That's a more interesting question too.
Yes. So sub question B, can a person
change if they don't believe they can change?

(49:52):
I would also say probably not. So there's like a few
prerequisites, a few beliefs or mindsets that are like
prerequisites to change as well that like like if you don't want
to change and if you don't believe you can change, then
nothing else. Arguments, environment,

(50:13):
incentives, nudging, like none of that other stuff is really
probably going to matter a wholelot.
And then I guess there's a thirdsub question, which is like, can
someone change because another person made them change?
And to that I would also say no.You think that's what they're
actually asking? Potentially.
OK. I've just noticed.
Found that it's a tendency. I've just noticed that over the

(50:35):
years. I mean, they're hard out of
that. Occasionally I will run into
people who are like, can a person ever change?
And they're referring to themselves because they've been
the. Trying so.
Far they're struggling and they've been in a bad spot for a
long time and they're feeling kind of hopeless.
But like, in my experience, 9 times out of 10, it's somebody
who there's, it's either a partner or a family member or or

(50:55):
a child who like, they've just, they're like at their wits.
And yeah, they're at, they've tried everything.
They don't know what else to do.And the tricky thing about those
situations too, is that it's like often it's our best
attempts to help a person changeor make a person change are is
like subtly enabling their ability to not.

(51:16):
Change those codependent relationships that.
Totally because there is a certain like ultimately for a
person to change, there needs tobe it needs to feel as it needs
to feel like a good trade off tochange, right?
You'll never change if it feels like a bad trade off, like I'm
not going to become a new type of person if I feel like the new

(51:38):
person is worse off than my current version of myself,
right? And So what often happens is
when when a partner or a family member or a caregiver is
constantly trying to fix things in the person's life or like
help them figure their shit out,they are suddenly they are
subtly reinforcing to that person.

(52:02):
Well, if you change, you're going to lose all these perks
and benefits that I'm giving you.
Like, you're not going to be able to stay here for free
anymore. And I'm not going to like drive
you to work anymore. I'm not going to like help you
deal with your, you know, whatever anymore.
And, and so unconsciously that like removes incentive for the
person to change. So it's a tricky, it's very

(52:23):
tricky thing. If you have somebody in your
life who you really wish they would change, there's it, it's,
there's a very subtle dance thathas to take place.
Like if you're supporting them, you have to make sure that
you're supporting them because they want to change themselves
and they believe they can changethemselves.
And if they don't believe those things, or if they don't want to

(52:44):
change, then your attempt to convince them to change or
support them and change, it's very, very likely it's going to
backfire and make things worse. Yeah, I think the guests we've
had on here who have struggled with addiction, I think we'll
tell you something very similar both on the codependency side,
but also on the side of the recognizing that trade off.
You're talking about that like they needed that rock bottom.

(53:07):
They need to define that rock bottom to see that trade off.
And so you can't. But I think it was Novak,
Brandon Novak who said, you know, I, I wouldn't have wanted
anybody to rob me of that process, you know, and that's
that process of finding rock bottom, which is a painful to
watch from the outside. I remember reading Ritual's book
and one of the things that impressed me the most was his

(53:27):
parents. When he was like deep in his
throes with alcoholism and had just gone to jail and all this
stuff, he like went to his parents house or something and
they shut the door on him and they said don't come back till
you're sober and. Had to be the hardest thing to
do as a parent I. Can't even imagine like I
remember reading. That caved.
Yeah, I. Remember reading that and I was
like, God damn, some cold shit. Props to his parents, man.

(53:50):
Like really props to his parentsthat like that's, that's
incredible because I think most,most family members are not able
to do that right And. And that's why you see all the
enabling and the good dependencyand the, yeah.
Yeah, totally. Yeah.
You latched onto the word peoplein those three.
I latched onto the word change. Like what do you what do you
actually call change? Oh, interesting.

(54:11):
What is the definition of? Interesting.
So that's why the simple question has all these little
rabbit holes you can go down. And I thought, what do you mean
by change? Is there's there's behavioral
change. Yes, there's can you change your
personality? You kind of you alluded to that
as well. Can you change your identity?
Like I'm a loser, you know, can change that thinking.
And then, you know, there's all this like around things like

(54:32):
self actualization, you know, that the the humanist came up
with we appear to have this drive towards change and that
we're seeking it. But is it actually what
constitutes change in any of that?
Because a behavioral change if this the environment changes and
you didn't do anything about it,but yet you change your behavior
around that. Is that change?
Is that real change? Is that the kind of change

(54:52):
you're talking about? I mean, you've changed your
behavior. Sure, this is a really good
question because I run into thisespecially with like the woo woo
crowd out here in LA. There's so many people I know
out here who, you know, they do all the their spiritual journey
stuff and retreats and seminars and have a shame in and a guru
and psychedelic, you know, whole9 yards.

(55:14):
And every time I see them, they like swear on their life that
they, they they have like they're completely transformed.
They're like, Oh my God, Mark, you wouldn't believe.
I went to Costa Rica and I did this whole like shaman thing and
like I'm a completely transformed person.
And then I asked him like, OK, cool.
Well, like how's life going? How's business going?
How's, you know, your relationship going?
And it's all the same shit. It's all the same shit.

(55:37):
And I'm like, OK, So what changed?
You know, and I think that's, it's a really, it's a really
interesting question because, and, and maybe maybe I'm wrong,
but like my bias is that if you,if your behaviors are the same,
I don't think you really changed.
Like you, it's kind of like it'sputting lipstick on a pig,

(56:00):
right? Like you don't, you could see
your life differently. But if your behaviors are the
same and the problems are the same, then in in my mind you
haven't really changed. So I guess my definition of
change would be behavioral driven.
Behavioral. Yeah.

(56:20):
Or I would actually say it's problem driven.
So like, it'd be one thing if, if, and this has happened a
couple times, like some of thesepeople, like they'll come back
from their like whatever, whatever, retreat and they'll be
like, you know, I thought this was a problem in my life.
But now I've, I actually see that it's not, you know, or that
I've changed my perspective or I've, I've shifted my values and

(56:42):
I'm OK, like, you know, with whatever.
So if the pro, if the perceptionof a problem has shifted, then I
would say that is a change, right?
So the behavior around a problemchanges or the perspective
around a problem changes. I would say that's a change.
But yeah, if if neither of thosethings have changed, then.

(57:05):
Yeah, you'd be hard pressed to say you've really changed if one
of those two things. Your mind.
Your mind hasn't changed. Your behavior hasn't changed.
Your both. Well, and, and I think this is
this also ties into because I think what a lot of those people
experience and this, this is actually, this is a common knock
on therapy as well, is that whatis probably changed is their
perception of themselves, Right,Right.
So it's like, I could go to a therapist, you know, this, so

(57:27):
this, this used to be the, the big criticism of like, like
Freudian therapy, right? It's like you can go to a
therapist and you can like learnall this crazy shit about your
childhood and all this, how your, your mom was actually kind
of a terrible person and all this stuff.
But then you still have to go back to your life and all the
problems and dysfunction in yourlife.

(57:48):
It's like still there, nothing'schanged.
You haven't done anything differently, right?
And so like that was always the big criticism of like that old
school Freudian stuff. And I think there's a little bit
of that in the self help world. You know, it's like people will
go, they'll go like do some sortof do a bunch of psychedelics
and lay around. Meditation.
Meditation, whatever. And they'll get some sort of

(58:09):
insight into themselves and likea greater understanding of like,
oh, This is why I'm this way or like This is why I always feel
like this. Maybe I should chill out.
But, and I think that insight tothem feels like a a profound
change when really it's just a change of self knowledge or self
perspective. And I guess by my definition of

(58:32):
change, if the problems are the same and the behaviors are the
same, then like nothing really changed.
OK, Yeah, yeah. What do you think you've changed
in your life? And you can't say your health
stuff because we already know about the that was going to be
too easy for you. What do you think you've
changed? I can give you an example from
mine too. I'll just give you a quick
example of one I thought of. Sure.
I've become much less reactive in my relationships, especially

(58:53):
things that used to set me off. I've been able to like be more
mindful and catch myself, be like, OK, what's the best
reaction here? Things that come up now that
would have just like set me off earlier, I've been able to
really like, really step back and be like, OK, what's the best
for the relationship here? Not what's the best for my
little ego boost that. I mean, I really do think I've
been able to do that. And that's just been within the

(59:14):
last couple of years, honestly, the last few years that I've
gotten a lot better about that sort of thing.
To me, that feels like a big change.
And I think it's also reflected outwardly as well.
Yeah. So.
Has that caused you to behave differently in your
relationships? Yeah, 100%.
Oh, I mean, yeah, I feel just somuch more like secure in my
relationship, perhaps not too that whether it's friends,
romantic, whatever, where I can kind of step back and instead of

(59:37):
being so judge mental, like I really had to work on that
though. I I felt like that was a a
change for me. And it's it seems minor in the
moments, but then you step back and you're like, oh, that
changed the whole trajectory of a relationship or that, you
know, I look back on moments that I had where a relationship
fell apart or something and I point to certain moments and I'm
like, I would have just handled that differently.

(59:58):
It probably would have. The whole relationship could
have gone different. Yeah.
So yeah. I think this is probably a good
insight is that I think at some point in the last five years, I
had the insight that like I havea novelty addiction in my brain
and that is driven most of my bad decisions throughout my
life. It's driven a lot of good

(01:00:18):
decisions as well, but it's mostof the poor decisions that I've
made over the over the years or problems that I've created for
myself over the years. It's been driven by that
constant need for novelty and that constant dissatisfaction
from it. And so it, that realization,
that realization by itself, I did not change, but that

(01:00:39):
realization sparked change by mebeing much more conscientious
about like taking fewer trips, saying no to more business
opportunities, focusing more on showing up for friends, you
know, being more consistent and like my community and the people
I know. And like, you know, it's, it's,

(01:01:02):
it's a conversation like my wifeand I've been having a lot the
past two years because I think she and I are just both kind of
bad at it. It's like show up for a little
thing. It's the stuff you're really
good at. It's like show up for the little
things. Like they add up and they really
matter. And those are the things that
old Mark would be like, well, that's boring.
Like that's not novel. So, you know, let me know when

(01:01:22):
there's a wedding or something because then I'll make time,
right? But then it's like I've got like
some cool trip or I'm going to go do this thing in Dubai or
something, you know, and like, and I wouldn't be there.
And I think it took enough like I had to age enough to like pay
the price for that. You know, you, you have to go
through enough of life and, and go through enough years to see

(01:01:42):
the accumulation of all those small decisions and realize that
like, oh, OK, I actually kind offucked myself here.
And then like a lot of the problems that I'm experiencing
today, it's the result of like lots and lots of small bad
decisions over the course of thelast five or ten years.
And so I'd say the last two years has really been me trying
to correct that. And I'm trying to be like way

(01:02:05):
more conscious and focused on where I spend my time, both in
terms of people and then also interms of like endeavors or
hobbies or whatever. And and yeah, it's like
sometimes I get sucked back a little into the novelty vortex,
you know, I can like, feel like.You're never going to change

(01:02:26):
that. Exactly.
That's so that's a perfect example like that.
That desire for novelty, it's never going to go away.
I'm always going to have that. What changes is my ability to
manage it right. It's like the the behavior that
it produces, the output that happens in terms of like my
behavior and my beliefs and and my commitment.
So that's probably been the biggest one.

(01:02:48):
And that's kind of where I've landed on all of this too, is
that those are there probably are things that aren't going to
change or at least not change very much about you, but the way
those are expressed can be changed.
It's kind of like how do you channel your introversion or
extraversion or your novelty seeking versus your your comfort
seeking? Yes, like those can be changed

(01:03:08):
and. And I think so many people get
mixed up because they try to change the disposition like they
try to change their personality.I don't want.
To be a new person. Yeah, they're like, I don't want
to be an introvert anymore or I don't want to be an anxious
person anymore or I don't want to, you know, need so much of A
routine anymore. And it's like, sorry, but like,
if that's how you've always been, you're probably always

(01:03:30):
going to be that way. It like I, it's funny.
And it, it's like, I think people resist that idea.
But I have actually found that like, if you can kind of stay at
point, like I've had conversations with people before
where like they've kind of come to me and they're like, man, I'm
an anxious mess. I'm really having a lot of
problems. Like how do I deal with this?
And I'm like, well, you know, tell me about, tell me about it.
How, you know, how did this start?

(01:03:51):
How did? Well, it turns out they've
always been an anxious mess their entire life.
And they're just like, I'm sick of it.
I don't want to be this way anymore.
And I'm like, well, I got bad news for you.
Like you're an anxious person. That's just life.
Like everybody's got a thing. You know, some people struggle
with anger. Some people struggle with
depression. Some people like, I'm a
depressive person. I fall in the depression, I

(01:04:13):
think, much easier than most people.
My wife is a very anxious person.
She worries about stuff much more than most people.
You were saying that you, you get triggered and fly off the
handle. Like, you know, some people get
angrier much easier than something like we've all got our
thing and it's like you don't change the thing, you change the
reaction to the thing. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

(01:04:34):
And yeah, that can be very. It's a slow process.
Which? Is I think the other thing about
change you have to just be willing to accept and sign up
for is the just the slow grinding nature of it.
Yes. What else are you going to do
though, too, You know, like that's, that's life.
Yeah, yeah. All right.

(01:04:54):
I would ask for the wisdom of the week, but the last time you
gave us that. I don't have any dirty jokes.
I don't. No more Willie, Willie Nelson
jokes. I don't know.
No, Willie Nelson jokes. All right.
Wisdom of the week from Maya Angelou.
I can be changed by what happensto me, but I refuse to be
reduced by it. That sums up a lot from today.
Well, the AGI has penetrated us all this episode.

(01:05:16):
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(01:05:38):
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And I guess we'll be back next week.
The Subtle Art I'm Not Giving a Fuck podcast is produced by Drew
Bernie. It's.
Edited by Andrew Nishimura. Jessica Choi is our videographer
and sound engineer. Thank you for listening and we
will see you next week.