April 8, 2025 • 36 mins
The creative process isn't just something artists do on the side—it's the fundamental mechanism through which the kingdom of God operates. In this profound exploration of prophetic creativity, Matt Tommey shares revelatory insights from his 30+ years as both a professional artist and worship leader.
Matt unpacks a transformative understanding of creativity as "seeing and agreeing"—perceiving what God is doing through the Holy Spirit and aligning our hearts with that movement. This process becomes the channel through which heaven literally enters earth, whether through music, visual art, business, or any creative expression. When we grasp this principle, mountains move and lives transform.
The connection between faith and creativity emerges with startling clarity as Matt suggests replacing "faith" in scripture with "creativity." Creativity becomes the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. Our creative expressions—whether songs, paintings, dance, or entrepreneurial ventures—manifest tangible evidence that what God revealed in the spiritual realm is actually real.
For those seeking to operate prophetically in their creative calling, Matt outlines the balanced approach exemplified by Bezalel in Exodus 31—being both "filled with the Spirit" and "skilled in workmanship." This dual emphasis prevents the frustration of spiritual impression without the skill to express it, while ensuring our technical proficiency remains infused with divine life.
Jesus himself modeled prophetic creativity, operating from the overflow of relationship with the Father, remaining ready to respond in any moment, and making room for supernatural manifestation in ordinary circumstances. His example challenges us to cultivate both structure and spontaneity, leaving space for those moments when the Spirit moves unexpectedly.
Ready to transform your understanding of creativity and experience the supernatural through your artistic expression? Discover how you were designed to co-create with the Holy Spirit and bring heaven to earth through the unique gifts God has placed within you.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Welcome to the Thriving Christian Artist, the
podcast, where we hope youconnect with God to bust through
the roadblocks that have heldyou back for years, create the
work you love and really livethe life you know.
God created you to live as anartist in His kingdom.
I'm Matt Tama, your host.
Let's get started.
Well, hey, my friends, welcometo the podcast, so glad that
(00:24):
you're here.
I got invited the other nightby a friend of mine, dr Vivian
Hibbert, to speak to a group ofdoctoral students in the area of
prophetic creativity andworship arts, and I was super
honored, because she's one ofthe heroes of creativity in my
life and just was honored to beable to speak to him.
Life, and just was honored tobe able to speak to him.
(00:46):
But I made, I think, a gooddecision of hitting the record
button on my side of it as well,just to kind of re-listen to
what I was teaching, and Ithought, doggone it.
This came out really good.
I think I'll try to share it onthe podcast, and so that's what
today's episode is all about issort of a deep dive into this
area of prophetic creativity andwhat it means to really
co-labor with the Holy Spirit.
Listen, this is one of thosetopics that I could speak on
(01:08):
forever and ever, and ever andever.
But this is about 30 minutes orso of deep diving into this
topic and I just pray it's goingto be a blessing for you, as
you and I are learning more andmore every day how to co-labor
with the Holy Spirit and what itis that we're called to do
creatively.
So sit back and enjoy and, ofcourse, I'd love to know what
you think.
So always feel free to leave acomment and, of course, share
(01:30):
with your friends if thispodcast continues to be a
blessing to you.
I really wanted to kind ofapproach this tonight, I guess,
from a little bit different way,in that, as Vivian said, I've
been a musician my whole life.
My mom was a choir director andmusician forever.
So I grew up playing the pianosince I was five, but in my
middle teenage years began toreally find this love for making
(01:54):
with my hands, and so I'vealways kind of been in this sort
of back and forth of worshipfrom a musical you know, being
in church kind of worship, kindof standpoint, but also at the
same time, creating.
And for the last 15 years I'vemade my living primarily from
from my artwork, and so I'vegotten to see kind of both sides
(02:14):
of what people refer to asprophetic worship, prophetic art
, that sort of thing.
And I've really come to believeyou know, I had a lot of sacred
cows, I think, like everybodydoes when you kind of when you
come into sort of trying tounderstand what it is to walk in
the prophetic and walk in thepresence of God, in regards to
our creativity.
(02:35):
But to me I've really come tobelieve that creativity is how
the kingdom of God works.
Kingdom of God works, it's theprocess by which the kingdom of
God comes from heaven, throughus, into the earth in every
realm.
So whether you're in worship,whether you are in, you know
(02:56):
making with your hands, whetheryou're in business or speaking
or vocational ministry orwhatever, and to me to try to
boil that down obviously is ahuge task.
But I like to talk aboutwalking in the kingdom in the
context of that creative process, in terms of seeing and
agreeing.
That is, we see and sense andfeel and understand as believers
(03:20):
, through the power of the HolySpirit, what God is saying,
where he's moving, where hewants to move, what's on his
heart, and we agree with that inour heart, right, so we sense
that God's saying something,that we agree with that in our
heart.
And then, through the uniquedesign of our life, through
whatever gifts and talents,passions, graces, perspectives
(03:41):
that he's put within us, we getto release the nature of God,
the presence of God in andthrough our life.
And for those of us, where thathappens in worship, wow, that's
an incredible thing.
But for those of us that arevisual artists, we get to see
God move in on and throughobjects that we create and
(04:03):
people that are business owners.
They get to see God move in onand through businesses that they
create and environments thatthey create.
And so I really believe that,again, creativity is not just
something that we do on the side, that worship is not just this
little thing that we offer tothe Lord on Sunday.
This is how we're designed toco-labor with the Father in the
(04:27):
kingdom, to see His kingdom comeand His will be done.
Creativity is not extra.
It's the way the kingdom of Godis designed.
The essence of creativity is tosee and agree.
Really, to me, that even goesdeeper in being really the
essence of faith.
Right, because faith, the Biblesays, is what the substance,
the tangible, the substance ofthings hoped for, the evidence,
(04:52):
the tangible proof of things notseen.
And so you know, when we areinvolved in the creative process
, where does that start?
It starts in our spirit, man.
It starts in our imagination.
The Holy Spirit moves on usAgain.
For musicians, maybe that comesin the form of a song or a
(05:13):
prophetic utterance.
Maybe that comes in somethingthat you're playing, a worship
environment that you're creating.
Maybe for me, as a visualartist, that comes as something
that I'm going to make.
But it all starts in ourimagination.
That word that you see allthrough the Bible, used for
imagination many times, isyetzer right, which is this idea
(05:34):
of a womb or a studio like one,being formed by clay, like a
seed bed.
And so you think, wow, god isspeaking and moving in the
context of our imagination andgiving us the opportunity to see
and agree with him.
And I just, you know, I justlike to think.
I don't believe God is stingy,right.
(05:57):
I mean, I just believe thatthat the Holy Spirit is pouring
out revelation all the time.
It's like you know, back in theold-timey church Vivian may
have heard this, you know theyused to say get close to the
spout where the glory comes outright.
I want to be under the flow ofheaven in what I'm doing, and I
(06:18):
believe that our Father is agood Father who desires to give
good gifts to His children.
Jesus said it's the Father'sgood pleasure to give you the
kingdom.
And so I just you know, Ibelieve, as sons and daughters
and as creative ones, that wehave this opportunity to, in a
beautiful way, not in a weirdway, not in a churchy way, not
(06:40):
in a religious way, just in abeautiful, authentic,
relationally based way we canconnect with the voice of the
Holy Spirit and connect with therevelation that he is pouring
out at any time, in any place,for anything.
And just as much as thathappens in worship, it can
happen in the marketplace, itcan happen in your family, it
(07:01):
can happen wherever.
And so I want to kind of startthat way, because, in that
context, your worship, and theworship that we help facilitate,
and the art that we create, andall of that, all of this is a
conduit, the conduits for heavento come to earth.
And again, that is the natureof the kingdom of God that he's
(07:24):
releasing his revelation andreleasing his presence to us so
that it can go through us torelease light and life and
transformation to others.
And I don't know about you, butthat is like this incredible
invitation for us, and Iremember this has been years ago
when I was kind of digging intothis idea of creativity and
(07:47):
faith.
And how does this work?
You know, sometimes the Lordwill take you on a little
journey.
And I was studying this and Ifelt the Holy Spirit prompt me
as I was reading about faith.
He said just take the wordinstead of faith, replace it
with art.
And we can say, for thiscontext, replace it with
creativity, just for a secondCreativity without creativity
(08:12):
it's impossible to please God.
Well, if you say creativity isthis idea of seeing and agreeing
the essence of faith, I'd sayabsolutely right, because
otherwise we're just outperforming for God kind of
worker bees, you know all thissort of thing.
So I'm like out performing forGod, kind of worker bees, you
know all this sort of thing.
So I'm like, yeah, that's whatabout?
You know, faith is thesubstance of things.
(08:33):
So for creativity is thesubstance of things hoped for,
it's the evidence of things notseen.
That is when you createsomething and you create a song,
a moment, a piece of art orwhatever it is literally.
Come on now.
It's literally the evidencethat the thing God showed you in
the spirit is actually real.
Wow, wow, so that we'rebringing heaven to earth through
(08:57):
the things that God calls us tospeak and sing and move and
dance and create and facilitate.
This becomes a conduit.
What about?
Why is it that people getdelivered and set free and
brought to the Lord more easilyin a creative context?
You know that's true, right, Imean, you could be witnessing it
(09:20):
for somebody for 10 years.
All of a sudden, they hear asong and God's breaking through.
You know the Holy Spirit's onthem.
Why is that?
Well, what about that versethat says with the faith of a
mustard seed, you can say tothis mountain, move and it would
be moved and cast into the sea.
With the creativity of amustard seed, with the creative
(09:41):
expression of a mustard seed,with just a little bit of you in
the context of your creativegifting, seeing and agreeing
with the power of the HolySpirit, under the unction of his
power.
In that moment, when you actlike that and when you bring
heaven into earth through theunique design and flavor that
(10:05):
God's called you to, in thatmoment, mountains get moved.
In that moment, people getdelivered and set free.
I would say, not just becauseyou're talented, because God's
not looking for more talentedorphans, right, he's looking for
sons and daughters who can seeand agree with him and are
willing to make room for him inthese moments.
(10:28):
And so I just, I firmly believe, after all these years 30 plus
years working and living as anartist and walking in ministry
and all this I just believe youcan't operate in the kingdom
without this principle of seeingand agreeing, which is
creativity.
(10:48):
Without that, what are wereally doing?
I love the verse that Jesussaid right, he said when the
Pharisees were coming at him andaccusing him and all this, and
you're healing people on theSabbath, and all this.
And Jesus said, hey, I just dothe things that I see the father
doing and isn't.
Isn't that again, just when webreak it all down.
(11:12):
Let's not talk about style,let's not talk about preference,
let's not talk about music, art, creativity, whatever it is in,
whatever moment we're in,aren't we supposed to be doing
just what we see the Fatherdoing?
And responding to that?
(11:32):
And the beautiful thing, I think, for us, and also the challenge
for us as musicians andworshipers and those that are,
you know, invited to inviteothers into this process.
We have the exhilaration Iwould say there's nothing better
.
I mean, can we all agree?
There's nothing better whenyou're in the moment and you
(11:56):
sense the Holy Spirit is movingin and on and through you and
you see God moving in the roomand you see others being touched
.
I mean, wow, there is nothingbetter than that.
Sell it all for those moments,right?
I love that.
And so I just think, wow, whenwe enter into this, we're
entering into this sort ofcollaborative dance, this
(12:19):
collaborative process with theHoly Spirit, and we're making
room, we're yielding to him onpurpose to give him freedom and
power to move.
And so I would say, the biggestchallenge, I think, for living
prophetically in the context ofthe worship environment and the
(12:42):
context of just the churchenvironment, is realizing that
prophetic living is aninvitation, is an invitation to
those who are willing to makeroom for the Holy Spirit to move
in freedom and in power.
That might be quotable, so I'llsay it again Prophetic living
(13:08):
is an invitation to those whoare willing to make room for the
Holy Spirit to move in freedomand in power.
Now I just want to say this andI believe you knew him too,
vivian Jack Taylor.
Jack Taylor, one of my primarymentors in the kingdom.
(13:29):
He said listen, anytime he'dsay something challenging.
He said listen, I'm notanti-church, but I'm pro-kingdom
.
Right, and I want to say thissometimes, church is the hardest
place to allow the essence ofwhat it means to be prophetic
and what it means to be creativein the church, because we've
(13:51):
been so married to form andstructure that we forget that
the Holy Spirit is there inevery moment, inviting us to
take a breath, to breathe and tofeel and to say Lord, where is
the wind of the spirit?
What is it that you want to doin these moments?
(14:12):
But when we respond asmusicians, as worship leaders,
as people that are leading incommunities of faith and in
worship, when we respond infaith, in these moments, we're
opening the door right for hislife and his life.
I remember Vivian so vividlynot to use too much alliteration
(14:35):
I remember so vividly.
You said this has been 10, 15years ago.
You were saying something aboutwe're the doorkeepers of his
presence.
Oh, the doorkeepers of hispresence, that we, the
doorkeepers of his presence,that we're the ones that get to
go before and open the door tohis presence and say come on in
and just think about that.
(14:55):
When we do that, when we havethis incredible opportunity to
respond in faith to say yes, I'mgoing to take a chance, I'm
going to step out on thatunction that I feel right now,
I'm going to take a chance, I'mgoing to open the door to
something.
I feel like God is moving in.
He promises to do what hepromises to inhabit the praises
of his people.
(15:15):
When we open up those doors offaith, his light and his life
get released.
It goes so far beyond our talentand our techniques and all the
stuff that we can bring, andeverybody in that moment gets
transformed right.
Because when God I mean youknow, when God shows up, things
(15:36):
change right.
When God shows up, we all gettransformed.
And when we get to respond inthe middle of that, that's how
real transformation happens.
And so again, I just think, wow, this, as special as we all
feel as artists and musicians,and the wonderful, unique
(15:58):
giftings that God's put in us.
I just want to again bring thisback around to saying this
essence of creativity andwalking in the kingdom to see
and agree.
This is an invitation foreverybody, in every area of
culture, in every area of ourlife and in the marketplace.
Will we have an ear to thespirit and will we be faithful
(16:18):
to respond and say, yeah, I wantto give room for the Holy
Spirit to speak and to move?
I can't.
I can't tell you how many times.
I don't know who said this,maybe Dan McCollum or somebody
much smarter than me said youknow, prophetic is always
spelled risk, right, propheticis always spelled R-I-S-K.
(16:40):
You know, but how many times Ijust I've been doing this a long
time.
There's never a moment.
There's never a moment inworship, there's never a moment
at Walmart when you feel God sayand speak to somebody.
There's never a moment thatwhen you feel that thing, that
the Holy Spirit is trying tospeak to you, there's never a
moment that you don't hear.
Is that really the Lord?
(17:00):
Are you?
Is this, are you reallysupposed to do this?
I mean, this is just your flesh.
You know, isn't the enemyalways like that?
He's always there, right,sowing doubt and all that.
But we got to step forward infaith and when we do, I've never
been disappointed.
I've never been disappointedwhen I stepped out in faith.
(17:22):
It might not have beenexpressed exactly like I thought
it would have.
The people may not haveresponded exactly like I thought
I wanted have.
The people may not haveresponded exactly like I thought
I wanted them or I thought theyshould have responded, but I've
never been disappointed.
You'll never be disappointed instepping out in faith, because
God sees our faithfulness.
See, this is just this.
(17:44):
Set me free so many years ago,god that did you know that you
can't produce fruit in your life?
You can't produce fruit in yourlife.
The only thing that you can dois stay connected to the vine.
You know whose responsibilityis produce fruit through you,
jesus, the vine.
Right, jesus said I'm the vine,you're the branches.
(18:04):
Apart, apart from me, you cando nothing.
I'm trying to in my life, inministry, do nothing but hold on
to Jesus and say God, with thevine that you've given me, with
the talents that you've given me, the graces, the perspectives,
all the stuff, lord, I want tokeep my vine open.
I want to keep my eyes and myears open so that when you want
(18:26):
to move, there's a freedom there, there's not that struggle.
And I think we can.
I think we can learn that wecan.
We can learn and cultivate asoft heart to the Lord that when
he, when he, wants to dosomething, we're not so bound up
in religion and fear of man,but we can just and we've
created a culture around us thatwe say, you know what, I just
(18:49):
got the freedom to do this andI'm going to, I'm going to step
out Now one of the things that Ithink is important to
contextualize this, especiallyin regards to music and the arts
, because I may be, you know,you can watch American Idol and
(19:11):
realize somebody's mama lied tothem, right?
I mean, we know this.
Right, everybody thinks they'reanointed and appointed, and
they might be, but they're on ajourney.
They're on a journey, and soExodus 31, we all know this as
creatives.
And so Exodus 31, we all knowthis as creatives Bezalel being
appointed, aholiab beingappointed by Moses, and it says
(19:34):
that they were filled.
Bezalel was filled with theSpirit of God and skilled in
every manner of workmanshipright, filled and skilled.
I believe that that is themodel, if you will, for
operating as a healthy,empowered, spirit-led creative
(19:57):
in the kingdom, because, howmany of you know, you can be
filled with the Holy Spirit.
You can be full of unction andpower and anointing and desire
and vision and passion and allthis kind of stuff.
But if you don't have the skillto actually step out in the
things that God is showing youand again we're talking tonight
(20:19):
in the context of the art, somusic, dance, art, whatever it
is God's showing you something,you're full of passion for it,
but if you don't have the skillto actually walk it out, then
what happens?
Disappointment, right.
What does the Bible say?
The hope deferred makes theheart what Sick.
I remember Ray Hughes sayingone time impression without
(20:42):
expression leads to depression,right?
In other words, if you got animpression from the Lord and you
can't express it through yourlife, what's going to happen?
You're going to get depressed,you're going to get despondent.
Why?
Because you got all this visionbut you can't work it out.
On the other hand, you got a lotof people, especially in the
church, who are skilled to themax.
(21:04):
Who are skilled to the max.
They're the most incrediblepianist, organist, drummer,
worship team member, dancer,drama theater writer, whatever
it is.
But they've never made room forthe invitation of the Holy
Spirit in the context of theirskill, in the context of their
creative gifting.
(21:24):
And so what happens?
They have all of this skill butno life and no power.
And so for us, as creatives,there's this beautiful thing.
I believe that God wants us tobring us together.
Even you see it in is it inChronicles, asaph, sajuth and in
Heman right?
It says that they taught themusicians how to play skillfully
(21:45):
and prophesy.
It didn't say they just taughtthem how to prophesy.
Boy, those boys are prophesying.
No, play skillfully andprophesy why?
Because playing skillfullywithout the prophetic unction of
the Holy Spirit just producesgood music.
And I don't know about you, butI don't need any more good
(22:08):
music.
I was tired of going to church30 years ago.
Like I'm not, I'm not going.
I'm not showing up at churchjust to hear another song and be
be encouraged in my flesh.
I want to know that.
I know that, I know that I havemet with God and and doggone it
.
If I'm in leadership and ifyou're in leadership, we better
(22:28):
know that the thing that God'scalling us to do is not just to
get up there and tickle people'sears.
We are there to be a conduit,door opener, whatever you want
to say, to the presence andpower of God.
And that is what propheticworship and living this
creativity is is all about nowprophetic worship and living
(22:50):
this creativity is is all about.
Now a couple more things,because I could, I'm like vivid,
I could talk all night on thisand I'm not, I'm not, but
another verse, I just, I just,you know this in revelation, the
spirit of prophecy is thetestimony of jesus.
Right, that word testimonythere is like a legal term.
It's talking about the evidenceof bearing witness of, and so
(23:12):
when I think about the testimonyof Jesus, you know, in that
process I think about this.
When we operate in theprophetic, we are providing
evidence that the supernaturalrealm is real.
Right, we're giving witness tothat.
We're saying the thing that theHoly Spirit is speaking to me
(23:32):
right now, the thing that I'veread in His Word.
He's confirmed in my spirit,he's on me right now to release
through my worship, through mydance, through my writing,
through my speaking, whatever itis that is providing evidence
that that that realm is real, it, it, literally our creativity,
our facilitation, our, ouroffering of worship is the
(23:54):
substance of things hoped for,the evidence of things not seen.
Right, because it is.
It is the expression of thething that God is moving on us
with.
Does that make you with me onthat?
So, so, so, so powerful.
And so when I think of what isthe testimony of Jesus, I think,
(24:14):
well, who is Jesus?
Because if I was testifying, Iwould want to tell you who Jesus
is.
I'd want to do life like Jesusdid it, because I want to live a
prophetic life, I want to leadworship and play music and
create art in a prophetic way.
And so the first thing I think,well, who is Jesus?
(24:34):
What is he saying?
What has he said?
What's he saying now, like inthis moment, what I hear Jesus
saying, what I hear the HolySpirit saying, what's he doing
now?
How can I come into agreementwith that?
That's the spirit, that's thatprophetic spirit that we operate
in, right.
But I also think about, youknow, the spirit of prophecies
(24:56):
and testimony of Jesus.
I think about, well, how didJesus do things?
How did Jesus operate?
Because he was fully God, yetfully man.
So Jesus listen, jesus washaving to operate by faith too.
Right, fully man.
Right, jesus was having to seeand agree with heaven.
(25:18):
Right, I'm just doing thethings I see the father do.
I'm just trying to stay in stepwith my daddy, right?
I mean, come, come on.
Jesus didn't have a secretability that we didn't know
about.
You know he was fully God andfully man and chose to be
limited in his flesh, to walkthis earth without sin, so that
(25:40):
he could be a model for us, toshow us how you can do this.
And you're going to even dogreater things.
He said when the Holy Spiritcomes upon you in power Whoa.
So what are some of the thingsthat Jesus did?
And I think this is importantfor worship leaders and those of
us again who facilitate aculture of prophetic living.
(26:00):
I'm going to say it like thathe pulled away from the crowds
often to be with the Father.
You can't live prophetically,you can't worship prophetically
without a habit in the secretplace, without a regular
appointment with Jesus in thesecret place.
(26:22):
It's been said by so manypeople you can't lead where
you've never been right.
You can't give what you don'thave Right.
And so the other thing I thinkabout Jesus.
Jesus, did you ever see Jesussomebody come up to him and ask
him to get healed?
And he said oh, I didn't havemy quiet time today, I better go
(26:42):
pray about that real quick.
And then I'm, I'm, I'm.
I had to get back with you onthat one.
No, he didn't say that, did he?
He was always operating out ofthe overflow of relationship
with the father, alwaysoperating out of the overflow of
relationship with the Father.
See when the Bible says we gotto be ready in season and out of
season.
I think that is so importantfor musicians and for creatives
(27:07):
because it's in those momentswhen we don't realize what God's
going to do.
But we got to be ready torespond right.
We got to be ready to respondright.
We got to be ready to respond.
I used to tell my bands that Ihad over all these years God
bless them.
I used to tell them I saidlisten, you're going to ride
with me.
You got to be able to play anysong in any key at any time.
(27:28):
We're going to do Nashvillenumbers.
You need to know how.
My bass player was always on myleft because I said I'm not
sure where I'm going, but yougot to be able to follow my left
hand, why I want to operate outof the overflow and I'm not
going to be bound by a song list.
That don't mean I don't have asong list, that don't mean I
don't have a plan.
Of course, form and spiritright, but in a moment I got to
(27:52):
be ready to respond.
Jesus always, operated out ofthe overflow, did the things he
saw the Father doing.
I think Jesus made room in themundane and the ordinary to give
the supernatural room tomanifest.
Right, it's walking down theroad.
(28:12):
It's seeing a woman at the well.
It's seeing a bunch of hungrypeople that need to be fed.
It's seeing one of hisdisciples that, oops, I ain't
got enough money for my taxesthis month.
He's in the middle of themundane.
He's saying I'm just going topause and I'm going to make room
for this and guess what?
(28:35):
He saw signs and wonders as theevidence that when he saw and
when he see and agree, when hemade room for the movement of
the Holy Spirit, signs andwonders followed.
And what does the Bible say?
Signs and wonders will followwhat those who believe, so I
guess.
(28:55):
Lastly, I would say this just inregards to New Testament
worship.
You know, we know in Ephesiansit talks about, you know we
should be encouraging each otherwith psalms and hymns and
spiritual songs, right?
I again will say propheticworship and the prophetic living
(29:19):
is not always going to be theexperience of every believer,
because it's an invitation, nota requirement.
The Holy Spirit is always aboutinvitation, right?
I mean, think about the day ofPentecost, right?
The Bible says over 500 peopleheard about this invitation to
(29:40):
hey, go wait in the upper roomfor the Holy Spirit to come upon
you.
How many showed up?
120?
What percentage is that?
I don't know?
I don't know.
But many are invited, but few,few will take the time and make
the space to say I'm going to,I'm going to give room for this.
(30:02):
But you think about Psalms andhymns and spiritual songs.
That that word you knowpneumaticus, I believe is is the
spiritual songs, right, it'sthe, that's the spirit breathe.
What are the psalms?
We have a book of psalms, right?
We have a book of psalms thatDavid and maybe others wrote in
that moment, wonderful.
(30:23):
We need to be incorporatingthose Hymns, right?
Modern songs of the church andhistorical things that people
have written that declared thegoodness of God.
Yeah, we need things thatpeople have written that
declared the goodness of God.
Yet we need all of that.
So it's not either or.
It is not either or.
But in those moments ofstructure and form and all of
our planning and all this, wegot to leave room for that
(30:45):
pneumaticus, right?
That spirit-breathed song.
Vivian, I don't know if you everwent, but a big influence on me
in my life was the Brownsvillerevival, and I was a Methodist
worship leader.
I was baptized in the Holyspirit but I just didn't have a
lot of context for what all thatlooked like.
(31:06):
And somebody told me this backin like 97, 98,.
They said, man, you sound justlike Lyndall Cooley when you
lead worship.
He's the Brown worship leaderdown here this revival.
You need to go down there.
And I said revival.
I said, man, you sound justlike Lyndall Cooley when you
lead worship.
He's the worship leader downhere at this revival.
You need to go down there.
And I said revival.
I said, yeah, we got a springrevival and a fall revival.
They said, no, you don'tunderstand what this is.
(31:26):
And I went down there to thefirst worship conference that
Brownsville had and I'd neverheard the word like intercessor.
I didn't know anything.
I'd never seen a banner inworship.
I mean, where did I've been?
I've been up at the Methodistchurch my whole life and I got
down there and the thing that Icould not believe was that
(31:46):
people would wait in line 10 or12 hours to get in this, I mean
in the hot Pensacola sun and wewould come in and worship I'm
talking about just the music,just worship Would go two and a
half, three and a half hoursEvery night, seven days a week
for years, and at the end ofthese songs, and we'd sing hymns
(32:07):
, and we'd sing psalms and allthese songs that you knew, hymns
of the church, and all this.
But when they would stop and Ican feel it like right, I can
just feel it washing over meright now they would start to
sing spontaneously, in thespirit.
I mean, whoa, I'm talking aboutwaves, waves of glory, waves of
(32:31):
glory, waves of glory, waves ofglory, waves of glory.
And it would go on.
Woo, I feel it right now andI'm telling you, I'm telling you
, for for 10, 15 minutes,between these songs, people were
just in the presence of God.
(32:53):
Why?
Because somebody in leadershipchose to make room for the Holy
Spirit.
And so, friends, I think if Ihad to sum the whole thing up,
that would be it.
That's what prophetic worship isabout.
That's what prophetic living isabout is being uncomfortable
(33:14):
with the unexpected, beinguncomfortable with not quite
knowing exactly how this isgoing to go, but being
completely comfortable that whenI make room for the Holy Spirit
in the context of my authority,in the context of my gifting.
God is going to show up and hewill never leave his children
(33:46):
begging bread.
And I don't know about you, butthat's a journey that I'm
willing to go on.
Hey, also, before you leave,make sure to hit the subscribe
button so you don't miss any ofthe other episodes of the
Thriving Christian Artistpodcast, and also be sure to
connect with me on Facebook,instagram or at my website,
which is matttommymentoringcom.
Until next time, remember youwere created to thrive.
(34:08):
Bye-bye, thank you.
Welcome to the Thriving Christian Artist, the
podcast, where we hope youconnect with God to bust through
the roadblocks that have heldyou back for years, create the
work you love and really livethe life you know.
God created you to live as anartist in His kingdom.
I'm Matt Tama, your host.
Let's get started.
Well, hey, my friends, welcometo the podcast, so glad that
(00:24):
you're here.
I got invited the other nightby a friend of mine, dr Vivian
Hibbert, to speak to a group ofdoctoral students in the area of
prophetic creativity andworship arts, and I was super
honored, because she's one ofthe heroes of creativity in my
life and just was honored to beable to speak to him.
Life, and just was honored tobe able to speak to him.
(00:46):
But I made, I think, a gooddecision of hitting the record
button on my side of it as well,just to kind of re-listen to
what I was teaching, and Ithought, doggone it.
This came out really good.
I think I'll try to share it onthe podcast, and so that's what
today's episode is all about issort of a deep dive into this
area of prophetic creativity andwhat it means to really
co-labor with the Holy Spirit.
Listen, this is one of thosetopics that I could speak on
(01:08):
forever and ever, and ever andever.
But this is about 30 minutes orso of deep diving into this
topic and I just pray it's goingto be a blessing for you, as
you and I are learning more andmore every day how to co-labor
with the Holy Spirit and what itis that we're called to do
creatively.
So sit back and enjoy and, ofcourse, I'd love to know what
you think.
So always feel free to leave acomment and, of course, share
(01:30):
with your friends if thispodcast continues to be a
blessing to you.
I really wanted to kind ofapproach this tonight, I guess,
from a little bit different way,in that, as Vivian said, I've
been a musician my whole life.
My mom was a choir director andmusician forever.
So I grew up playing the pianosince I was five, but in my
middle teenage years began toreally find this love for making
(01:54):
with my hands, and so I'vealways kind of been in this sort
of back and forth of worshipfrom a musical you know, being
in church kind of worship, kindof standpoint, but also at the
same time, creating.
And for the last 15 years I'vemade my living primarily from
from my artwork, and so I'vegotten to see kind of both sides
(02:14):
of what people refer to asprophetic worship, prophetic art
, that sort of thing.
And I've really come to believeyou know, I had a lot of sacred
cows, I think, like everybodydoes when you kind of when you
come into sort of trying tounderstand what it is to walk in
the prophetic and walk in thepresence of God, in regards to
our creativity.
(02:35):
But to me I've really come tobelieve that creativity is how
the kingdom of God works.
Kingdom of God works, it's theprocess by which the kingdom of
God comes from heaven, throughus, into the earth in every
realm.
So whether you're in worship,whether you are in, you know
(02:56):
making with your hands, whetheryou're in business or speaking
or vocational ministry orwhatever, and to me to try to
boil that down obviously is ahuge task.
But I like to talk aboutwalking in the kingdom in the
context of that creative process, in terms of seeing and
agreeing.
That is, we see and sense andfeel and understand as believers
(03:20):
, through the power of the HolySpirit, what God is saying,
where he's moving, where hewants to move, what's on his
heart, and we agree with that inour heart, right, so we sense
that God's saying something,that we agree with that in our
heart.
And then, through the uniquedesign of our life, through
whatever gifts and talents,passions, graces, perspectives
(03:41):
that he's put within us, we getto release the nature of God,
the presence of God in andthrough our life.
And for those of us, where thathappens in worship, wow, that's
an incredible thing.
But for those of us that arevisual artists, we get to see
God move in on and throughobjects that we create and
(04:03):
people that are business owners.
They get to see God move in onand through businesses that they
create and environments thatthey create.
And so I really believe that,again, creativity is not just
something that we do on the side, that worship is not just this
little thing that we offer tothe Lord on Sunday.
This is how we're designed toco-labor with the Father in the
(04:27):
kingdom, to see His kingdom comeand His will be done.
Creativity is not extra.
It's the way the kingdom of Godis designed.
The essence of creativity is tosee and agree.
Really, to me, that even goesdeeper in being really the
essence of faith.
Right, because faith, the Biblesays, is what the substance,
the tangible, the substance ofthings hoped for, the evidence,
(04:52):
the tangible proof of things notseen.
And so you know, when we areinvolved in the creative process
, where does that start?
It starts in our spirit, man.
It starts in our imagination.
The Holy Spirit moves on usAgain.
For musicians, maybe that comesin the form of a song or a
(05:13):
prophetic utterance.
Maybe that comes in somethingthat you're playing, a worship
environment that you're creating.
Maybe for me, as a visualartist, that comes as something
that I'm going to make.
But it all starts in ourimagination.
That word that you see allthrough the Bible, used for
imagination many times, isyetzer right, which is this idea
(05:34):
of a womb or a studio like one,being formed by clay, like a
seed bed.
And so you think, wow, god isspeaking and moving in the
context of our imagination andgiving us the opportunity to see
and agree with him.
And I just, you know, I justlike to think.
I don't believe God is stingy,right.
(05:57):
I mean, I just believe thatthat the Holy Spirit is pouring
out revelation all the time.
It's like you know, back in theold-timey church Vivian may
have heard this, you know theyused to say get close to the
spout where the glory comes outright.
I want to be under the flow ofheaven in what I'm doing, and I
(06:18):
believe that our Father is agood Father who desires to give
good gifts to His children.
Jesus said it's the Father'sgood pleasure to give you the
kingdom.
And so I just you know, Ibelieve, as sons and daughters
and as creative ones, that wehave this opportunity to, in a
beautiful way, not in a weirdway, not in a churchy way, not
(06:40):
in a religious way, just in abeautiful, authentic,
relationally based way we canconnect with the voice of the
Holy Spirit and connect with therevelation that he is pouring
out at any time, in any place,for anything.
And just as much as thathappens in worship, it can
happen in the marketplace, itcan happen in your family, it
(07:01):
can happen wherever.
And so I want to kind of startthat way, because, in that
context, your worship, and theworship that we help facilitate,
and the art that we create, andall of that, all of this is a
conduit, the conduits for heavento come to earth.
And again, that is the natureof the kingdom of God that he's
(07:24):
releasing his revelation andreleasing his presence to us so
that it can go through us torelease light and life and
transformation to others.
And I don't know about you, butthat is like this incredible
invitation for us, and Iremember this has been years ago
when I was kind of digging intothis idea of creativity and
(07:47):
faith.
And how does this work?
You know, sometimes the Lordwill take you on a little
journey.
And I was studying this and Ifelt the Holy Spirit prompt me
as I was reading about faith.
He said just take the wordinstead of faith, replace it
with art.
And we can say, for thiscontext, replace it with
creativity, just for a secondCreativity without creativity
(08:12):
it's impossible to please God.
Well, if you say creativity isthis idea of seeing and agreeing
the essence of faith, I'd sayabsolutely right, because
otherwise we're just outperforming for God kind of
worker bees, you know all thissort of thing.
So I'm like out performing forGod, kind of worker bees, you
know all this sort of thing.
So I'm like, yeah, that's whatabout?
You know, faith is thesubstance of things.
(08:33):
So for creativity is thesubstance of things hoped for,
it's the evidence of things notseen.
That is when you createsomething and you create a song,
a moment, a piece of art orwhatever it is literally.
Come on now.
It's literally the evidencethat the thing God showed you in
the spirit is actually real.
Wow, wow, so that we'rebringing heaven to earth through
(08:57):
the things that God calls us tospeak and sing and move and
dance and create and facilitate.
This becomes a conduit.
What about?
Why is it that people getdelivered and set free and
brought to the Lord more easilyin a creative context?
You know that's true, right, Imean, you could be witnessing it
(09:20):
for somebody for 10 years.
All of a sudden, they hear asong and God's breaking through.
You know the Holy Spirit's onthem.
Why is that?
Well, what about that versethat says with the faith of a
mustard seed, you can say tothis mountain, move and it would
be moved and cast into the sea.
With the creativity of amustard seed, with the creative
(09:41):
expression of a mustard seed,with just a little bit of you in
the context of your creativegifting, seeing and agreeing
with the power of the HolySpirit, under the unction of his
power.
In that moment, when you actlike that and when you bring
heaven into earth through theunique design and flavor that
(10:05):
God's called you to, in thatmoment, mountains get moved.
In that moment, people getdelivered and set free.
I would say, not just becauseyou're talented, because God's
not looking for more talentedorphans, right, he's looking for
sons and daughters who can seeand agree with him and are
willing to make room for him inthese moments.
(10:28):
And so I just, I firmly believe, after all these years 30 plus
years working and living as anartist and walking in ministry
and all this I just believe youcan't operate in the kingdom
without this principle of seeingand agreeing, which is
creativity.
(10:48):
Without that, what are wereally doing?
I love the verse that Jesussaid right, he said when the
Pharisees were coming at him andaccusing him and all this, and
you're healing people on theSabbath, and all this.
And Jesus said, hey, I just dothe things that I see the father
doing and isn't.
Isn't that again, just when webreak it all down.
(11:12):
Let's not talk about style,let's not talk about preference,
let's not talk about music, art, creativity, whatever it is in,
whatever moment we're in,aren't we supposed to be doing
just what we see the Fatherdoing?
And responding to that?
(11:32):
And the beautiful thing, I think, for us, and also the challenge
for us as musicians andworshipers and those that are,
you know, invited to inviteothers into this process.
We have the exhilaration Iwould say there's nothing better
.
I mean, can we all agree?
There's nothing better whenyou're in the moment and you
(11:56):
sense the Holy Spirit is movingin and on and through you and
you see God moving in the roomand you see others being touched
.
I mean, wow, there is nothingbetter than that.
Sell it all for those moments,right?
I love that.
And so I just think, wow, whenwe enter into this, we're
entering into this sort ofcollaborative dance, this
(12:19):
collaborative process with theHoly Spirit, and we're making
room, we're yielding to him onpurpose to give him freedom and
power to move.
And so I would say, the biggestchallenge, I think, for living
prophetically in the context ofthe worship environment and the
(12:42):
context of just the churchenvironment, is realizing that
prophetic living is aninvitation, is an invitation to
those who are willing to makeroom for the Holy Spirit to move
in freedom and in power.
That might be quotable, so I'llsay it again Prophetic living
(13:08):
is an invitation to those whoare willing to make room for the
Holy Spirit to move in freedomand in power.
Now I just want to say this andI believe you knew him too,
vivian Jack Taylor.
Jack Taylor, one of my primarymentors in the kingdom.
(13:29):
He said listen, anytime he'dsay something challenging.
He said listen, I'm notanti-church, but I'm pro-kingdom
.
Right, and I want to say thissometimes, church is the hardest
place to allow the essence ofwhat it means to be prophetic
and what it means to be creativein the church, because we've
(13:51):
been so married to form andstructure that we forget that
the Holy Spirit is there inevery moment, inviting us to
take a breath, to breathe and tofeel and to say Lord, where is
the wind of the spirit?
What is it that you want to doin these moments?
(14:12):
But when we respond asmusicians, as worship leaders,
as people that are leading incommunities of faith and in
worship, when we respond infaith, in these moments, we're
opening the door right for hislife and his life.
I remember Vivian so vividlynot to use too much alliteration
(14:35):
I remember so vividly.
You said this has been 10, 15years ago.
You were saying something aboutwe're the doorkeepers of his
presence.
Oh, the doorkeepers of hispresence, that we, the
doorkeepers of his presence,that we're the ones that get to
go before and open the door tohis presence and say come on in
and just think about that.
(14:55):
When we do that, when we havethis incredible opportunity to
respond in faith to say yes, I'mgoing to take a chance, I'm
going to step out on thatunction that I feel right now,
I'm going to take a chance, I'mgoing to open the door to
something.
I feel like God is moving in.
He promises to do what hepromises to inhabit the praises
of his people.
(15:15):
When we open up those doors offaith, his light and his life
get released.
It goes so far beyond our talentand our techniques and all the
stuff that we can bring, andeverybody in that moment gets
transformed right.
Because when God I mean youknow, when God shows up, things
(15:36):
change right.
When God shows up, we all gettransformed.
And when we get to respond inthe middle of that, that's how
real transformation happens.
And so again, I just think, wow, this, as special as we all
feel as artists and musicians,and the wonderful, unique
(15:58):
giftings that God's put in us.
I just want to again bring thisback around to saying this
essence of creativity andwalking in the kingdom to see
and agree.
This is an invitation foreverybody, in every area of
culture, in every area of ourlife and in the marketplace.
Will we have an ear to thespirit and will we be faithful
(16:18):
to respond and say, yeah, I wantto give room for the Holy
Spirit to speak and to move?
I can't.
I can't tell you how many times.
I don't know who said this,maybe Dan McCollum or somebody
much smarter than me said youknow, prophetic is always
spelled risk, right, propheticis always spelled R-I-S-K.
(16:40):
You know, but how many times Ijust I've been doing this a long
time.
There's never a moment.
There's never a moment inworship, there's never a moment
at Walmart when you feel God sayand speak to somebody.
There's never a moment thatwhen you feel that thing, that
the Holy Spirit is trying tospeak to you, there's never a
moment that you don't hear.
Is that really the Lord?
(17:00):
Are you?
Is this, are you reallysupposed to do this?
I mean, this is just your flesh.
You know, isn't the enemyalways like that?
He's always there, right,sowing doubt and all that.
But we got to step forward infaith and when we do, I've never
been disappointed.
I've never been disappointedwhen I stepped out in faith.
(17:22):
It might not have beenexpressed exactly like I thought
it would have.
The people may not haveresponded exactly like I thought
I wanted have.
The people may not haveresponded exactly like I thought
I wanted them or I thought theyshould have responded, but I've
never been disappointed.
You'll never be disappointed instepping out in faith, because
God sees our faithfulness.
See, this is just this.
(17:44):
Set me free so many years ago,god that did you know that you
can't produce fruit in your life?
You can't produce fruit in yourlife.
The only thing that you can dois stay connected to the vine.
You know whose responsibilityis produce fruit through you,
jesus, the vine.
Right, jesus said I'm the vine,you're the branches.
(18:04):
Apart, apart from me, you cando nothing.
I'm trying to in my life, inministry, do nothing but hold on
to Jesus and say God, with thevine that you've given me, with
the talents that you've given me, the graces, the perspectives,
all the stuff, lord, I want tokeep my vine open.
I want to keep my eyes and myears open so that when you want
(18:26):
to move, there's a freedom there, there's not that struggle.
And I think we can.
I think we can learn that wecan.
We can learn and cultivate asoft heart to the Lord that when
he, when he, wants to dosomething, we're not so bound up
in religion and fear of man,but we can just and we've
created a culture around us thatwe say, you know what, I just
(18:49):
got the freedom to do this andI'm going to, I'm going to step
out Now one of the things that Ithink is important to
contextualize this, especiallyin regards to music and the arts
, because I may be, you know,you can watch American Idol and
(19:11):
realize somebody's mama lied tothem, right?
I mean, we know this.
Right, everybody thinks they'reanointed and appointed, and
they might be, but they're on ajourney.
They're on a journey, and soExodus 31, we all know this as
creatives.
And so Exodus 31, we all knowthis as creatives Bezalel being
appointed, aholiab beingappointed by Moses, and it says
(19:34):
that they were filled.
Bezalel was filled with theSpirit of God and skilled in
every manner of workmanshipright, filled and skilled.
I believe that that is themodel, if you will, for
operating as a healthy,empowered, spirit-led creative
(19:57):
in the kingdom, because, howmany of you know, you can be
filled with the Holy Spirit.
You can be full of unction andpower and anointing and desire
and vision and passion and allthis kind of stuff.
But if you don't have the skillto actually step out in the
things that God is showing youand again we're talking tonight
(20:19):
in the context of the art, somusic, dance, art, whatever it
is God's showing you something,you're full of passion for it,
but if you don't have the skillto actually walk it out, then
what happens?
Disappointment, right.
What does the Bible say?
The hope deferred makes theheart what Sick.
I remember Ray Hughes sayingone time impression without
(20:42):
expression leads to depression,right?
In other words, if you got animpression from the Lord and you
can't express it through yourlife, what's going to happen?
You're going to get depressed,you're going to get despondent.
Why?
Because you got all this visionbut you can't work it out.
On the other hand, you got a lotof people, especially in the
church, who are skilled to themax.
(21:04):
Who are skilled to the max.
They're the most incrediblepianist, organist, drummer,
worship team member, dancer,drama theater writer, whatever
it is.
But they've never made room forthe invitation of the Holy
Spirit in the context of theirskill, in the context of their
creative gifting.
(21:24):
And so what happens?
They have all of this skill butno life and no power.
And so for us, as creatives,there's this beautiful thing.
I believe that God wants us tobring us together.
Even you see it in is it inChronicles, asaph, sajuth and in
Heman right?
It says that they taught themusicians how to play skillfully
(21:45):
and prophesy.
It didn't say they just taughtthem how to prophesy.
Boy, those boys are prophesying.
No, play skillfully andprophesy why?
Because playing skillfullywithout the prophetic unction of
the Holy Spirit just producesgood music.
And I don't know about you, butI don't need any more good
(22:08):
music.
I was tired of going to church30 years ago.
Like I'm not, I'm not going.
I'm not showing up at churchjust to hear another song and be
be encouraged in my flesh.
I want to know that.
I know that, I know that I havemet with God and and doggone it
.
If I'm in leadership and ifyou're in leadership, we better
(22:28):
know that the thing that God'scalling us to do is not just to
get up there and tickle people'sears.
We are there to be a conduit,door opener, whatever you want
to say, to the presence andpower of God.
And that is what propheticworship and living this
creativity is is all about nowprophetic worship and living
(22:50):
this creativity is is all about.
Now a couple more things,because I could, I'm like vivid,
I could talk all night on thisand I'm not, I'm not, but
another verse, I just, I just,you know this in revelation, the
spirit of prophecy is thetestimony of jesus.
Right, that word testimonythere is like a legal term.
It's talking about the evidenceof bearing witness of, and so
(23:12):
when I think about the testimonyof Jesus, you know, in that
process I think about this.
When we operate in theprophetic, we are providing
evidence that the supernaturalrealm is real.
Right, we're giving witness tothat.
We're saying the thing that theHoly Spirit is speaking to me
(23:32):
right now, the thing that I'veread in His Word.
He's confirmed in my spirit,he's on me right now to release
through my worship, through mydance, through my writing,
through my speaking, whatever itis that is providing evidence
that that that realm is real, it, it, literally our creativity,
our facilitation, our, ouroffering of worship is the
(23:54):
substance of things hoped for,the evidence of things not seen.
Right, because it is.
It is the expression of thething that God is moving on us
with.
Does that make you with me onthat?
So, so, so, so powerful.
And so when I think of what isthe testimony of Jesus, I think,
(24:14):
well, who is Jesus?
Because if I was testifying, Iwould want to tell you who Jesus
is.
I'd want to do life like Jesusdid it, because I want to live a
prophetic life, I want to leadworship and play music and
create art in a prophetic way.
And so the first thing I think,well, who is Jesus?
(24:34):
What is he saying?
What has he said?
What's he saying now, like inthis moment, what I hear Jesus
saying, what I hear the HolySpirit saying, what's he doing
now?
How can I come into agreementwith that?
That's the spirit, that's thatprophetic spirit that we operate
in, right.
But I also think about, youknow, the spirit of prophecies
(24:56):
and testimony of Jesus.
I think about, well, how didJesus do things?
How did Jesus operate?
Because he was fully God, yetfully man.
So Jesus listen, jesus washaving to operate by faith too.
Right, fully man.
Right, jesus was having to seeand agree with heaven.
(25:18):
Right, I'm just doing thethings I see the father do.
I'm just trying to stay in stepwith my daddy, right?
I mean, come, come on.
Jesus didn't have a secretability that we didn't know
about.
You know he was fully God andfully man and chose to be
limited in his flesh, to walkthis earth without sin, so that
(25:40):
he could be a model for us, toshow us how you can do this.
And you're going to even dogreater things.
He said when the Holy Spiritcomes upon you in power Whoa.
So what are some of the thingsthat Jesus did?
And I think this is importantfor worship leaders and those of
us again who facilitate aculture of prophetic living.
(26:00):
I'm going to say it like thathe pulled away from the crowds
often to be with the Father.
You can't live prophetically,you can't worship prophetically
without a habit in the secretplace, without a regular
appointment with Jesus in thesecret place.
(26:22):
It's been said by so manypeople you can't lead where
you've never been right.
You can't give what you don'thave Right.
And so the other thing I thinkabout Jesus.
Jesus, did you ever see Jesussomebody come up to him and ask
him to get healed?
And he said oh, I didn't havemy quiet time today, I better go
(26:42):
pray about that real quick.
And then I'm, I'm, I'm.
I had to get back with you onthat one.
No, he didn't say that, did he?
He was always operating out ofthe overflow of relationship
with the father, alwaysoperating out of the overflow of
relationship with the Father.
See when the Bible says we gotto be ready in season and out of
season.
I think that is so importantfor musicians and for creatives
(27:07):
because it's in those momentswhen we don't realize what God's
going to do.
But we got to be ready torespond right.
We got to be ready to respondright.
We got to be ready to respond.
I used to tell my bands that Ihad over all these years God
bless them.
I used to tell them I saidlisten, you're going to ride
with me.
You got to be able to play anysong in any key at any time.
(27:28):
We're going to do Nashvillenumbers.
You need to know how.
My bass player was always on myleft because I said I'm not
sure where I'm going, but yougot to be able to follow my left
hand, why I want to operate outof the overflow and I'm not
going to be bound by a song list.
That don't mean I don't have asong list, that don't mean I
don't have a plan.
Of course, form and spiritright, but in a moment I got to
(27:52):
be ready to respond.
Jesus always, operated out ofthe overflow, did the things he
saw the Father doing.
I think Jesus made room in themundane and the ordinary to give
the supernatural room tomanifest.
Right, it's walking down theroad.
(28:12):
It's seeing a woman at the well.
It's seeing a bunch of hungrypeople that need to be fed.
It's seeing one of hisdisciples that, oops, I ain't
got enough money for my taxesthis month.
He's in the middle of themundane.
He's saying I'm just going topause and I'm going to make room
for this and guess what?
(28:35):
He saw signs and wonders as theevidence that when he saw and
when he see and agree, when hemade room for the movement of
the Holy Spirit, signs andwonders followed.
And what does the Bible say?
Signs and wonders will followwhat those who believe, so I
guess.
(28:55):
Lastly, I would say this just inregards to New Testament
worship.
You know, we know in Ephesiansit talks about, you know we
should be encouraging each otherwith psalms and hymns and
spiritual songs, right?
I again will say propheticworship and the prophetic living
(29:19):
is not always going to be theexperience of every believer,
because it's an invitation, nota requirement.
The Holy Spirit is always aboutinvitation, right?
I mean, think about the day ofPentecost, right?
The Bible says over 500 peopleheard about this invitation to
(29:40):
hey, go wait in the upper roomfor the Holy Spirit to come upon
you.
How many showed up?
120?
What percentage is that?
I don't know?
I don't know.
But many are invited, but few,few will take the time and make
the space to say I'm going to,I'm going to give room for this.
(30:02):
But you think about Psalms andhymns and spiritual songs.
That that word you knowpneumaticus, I believe is is the
spiritual songs, right, it'sthe, that's the spirit breathe.
What are the psalms?
We have a book of psalms, right?
We have a book of psalms thatDavid and maybe others wrote in
that moment, wonderful.
(30:23):
We need to be incorporatingthose Hymns, right?
Modern songs of the church andhistorical things that people
have written that declared thegoodness of God.
Yeah, we need things thatpeople have written that
declared the goodness of God.
Yet we need all of that.
So it's not either or.
It is not either or.
But in those moments ofstructure and form and all of
our planning and all this, wegot to leave room for that
(30:45):
pneumaticus, right?
That spirit-breathed song.
Vivian, I don't know if you everwent, but a big influence on me
in my life was the Brownsvillerevival, and I was a Methodist
worship leader.
I was baptized in the Holyspirit but I just didn't have a
lot of context for what all thatlooked like.
(31:06):
And somebody told me this backin like 97, 98,.
They said, man, you sound justlike Lyndall Cooley when you
lead worship.
He's the Brown worship leaderdown here this revival.
You need to go down there.
And I said revival.
I said, man, you sound justlike Lyndall Cooley when you
lead worship.
He's the worship leader downhere at this revival.
You need to go down there.
And I said revival.
I said, yeah, we got a springrevival and a fall revival.
They said, no, you don'tunderstand what this is.
(31:26):
And I went down there to thefirst worship conference that
Brownsville had and I'd neverheard the word like intercessor.
I didn't know anything.
I'd never seen a banner inworship.
I mean, where did I've been?
I've been up at the Methodistchurch my whole life and I got
down there and the thing that Icould not believe was that
(31:46):
people would wait in line 10 or12 hours to get in this, I mean
in the hot Pensacola sun and wewould come in and worship I'm
talking about just the music,just worship Would go two and a
half, three and a half hoursEvery night, seven days a week
for years, and at the end ofthese songs, and we'd sing hymns
(32:07):
, and we'd sing psalms and allthese songs that you knew, hymns
of the church, and all this.
But when they would stop and Ican feel it like right, I can
just feel it washing over meright now they would start to
sing spontaneously, in thespirit.
I mean, whoa, I'm talking aboutwaves, waves of glory, waves of
(32:31):
glory, waves of glory, waves ofglory, waves of glory.
And it would go on.
Woo, I feel it right now andI'm telling you, I'm telling you
, for for 10, 15 minutes,between these songs, people were
just in the presence of God.
(32:53):
Why?
Because somebody in leadershipchose to make room for the Holy
Spirit.
And so, friends, I think if Ihad to sum the whole thing up,
that would be it.
That's what prophetic worship isabout.
That's what prophetic living isabout is being uncomfortable
(33:14):
with the unexpected, beinguncomfortable with not quite
knowing exactly how this isgoing to go, but being
completely comfortable that whenI make room for the Holy Spirit
in the context of my authority,in the context of my gifting.
God is going to show up and hewill never leave his children
(33:46):
begging bread.
And I don't know about you, butthat's a journey that I'm
willing to go on.
Hey, also, before you leave,make sure to hit the subscribe
button so you don't miss any ofthe other episodes of the
Thriving Christian Artistpodcast, and also be sure to
connect with me on Facebook,instagram or at my website,
which is matttommymentoringcom.
Until next time, remember youwere created to thrive.
(34:08):
Bye-bye, thank you.
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