Silmarillion 2025 » Akallabêth » The Downfall of Númenor

Our 2025 Silmarillion journey continues with Akallabêth - the Downfall of Númenor!
“Akallabêth” is the synoptic account of Númenor in the Second Age of Middle-earth. This account spans almost 3500 years of history. It begins with the establishment of Númenor by Elros (brother of Elrond), and ends with the destruction of the island kingdom when its last king attempts to assail The Blessed Realm.
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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hey there, fellow travelers. Our twenty twenty five Solm Million
journey continues with a Calibath, The Downfall of Numenor. A
Kalibth is the synoptic account of Numenor in the Second
Age of Middle Earth. This account spans almost thirty five
hundred years of history. It begins with the establishment of
Numenor by el Ros, brother of el Rond, and ends
with the destruction of the island kingdom when its last

(00:20):
king attempts to assail the Blessed Realm. While you're listening,
check out Selmguide dot com. That's Silmguide dot com for
guides to individual chapters. You can find that link in
the show notes. To support our work on the Tolkien Road,
please visit Patreon dot com slash Tolkien Road. Enjoy. Hey there,
fellow travelers, Welcome to the Tolkien Road. Episode three fourteen

(00:43):
Greta say, Hey.

Speaker 2 (00:46):
Hey, Hey, Hey John, Hi listeners, high watchers.

Speaker 1 (00:50):
What's up? Hello world, Hello, hello out there. In this episode,
we will be discussing at Calibeth, the millennia spanning account
of the downfall of numnor Or. Before we get started,
we'd like to give a double up Air five to
our patrons three two one opst nice good ones. Special

(01:11):
thanks to this episode's executive producers, John R. Caitlin of
t with Tolkien, Jacob Lockham, John H. Scotch, You, Bobo,
and Eru twenty seven.

Speaker 2 (01:20):
Oh welcome Aeru twenty seven.

Speaker 1 (01:23):
Yes, yes, they were actually on the last episode. We're new,
but I was the only one that was on that episode,
so yeah, well new to me then, yeah, new to you. Absolutely.

Speaker 2 (01:34):
Absolutely, We welcome and thank you to all of our supporters.

Speaker 1 (01:37):
Absolutely. Yeah. Become a patron by visiting patreon dot com
slash Tolkien Road. Your financial support helps the Tolkien Road
to keep on everring on and lend you some cool
perks along the way. Learn more at patreon dot com
slash Tolkien Road YouTube. Hit that like button, don't forget
to subscribe, and let us know what's on your mind
in the comments below. All Right, well, like I said,

(01:58):
we've got a uh, we got like almost three and
a half millennia to talk about here, so we better
get started. We better just jump right into this one.

Speaker 2 (02:06):
Yeah, I think so, I think so so.

Speaker 1 (02:10):
A quote of the week comes from the Waldman Letter,
which is Letter one thirty one, And remember it's the
this is the preface to yeah, preface, you've either prefacer
forward to, you know, to the Selm million. All right,
here's the quote. The downfall is partly the result of
an inner weakness in men. Consequent, if you will, upon

(02:33):
the first fall, repented but not finally healed, Reward on
earth is more dangerous for men than punishment. The fall
is achieved by the cunning of Salurn and exploiting this weakness.
Its central theme is inevitably, I think, in a story
of men, a ban or prohibition. So that's Tolkien speaking

(02:54):
of the nature of this story. So and he refers
to it as the downfall, which is what a caliber means.
But that's that's what that word actually means, is the downfall.
So just think of this story as the downfall. It's
it's it's a story about the rise and fall of Numenor.
And one thing that was uh uh, you know, maybe

(03:15):
I think the right where it is maybe a little
serendipitous for this is that as we record this credit
today is all souls day. And you know this quote,
the line, the one line that really gets me in
there is reward on Earth is more dangerous for men
than punishment, right. I mean, I think that really gets

(03:36):
to the heart of this whole tale, that the story
of Numenor. And there's a quote, there was a quote
in uh in the Office of Readings for Today, which
is part of the whole liturgy of the Hours, you know,
for the Catholic Church. And this is from Saint Ambrose.
This quote is from Saint Ambrose. Death was not part

(03:59):
of nature. It became part of nature. God did not
decree death from the beginning. He prescribed it as a remedy.
Human life was condemned because of sin, to unremitting labor
and unbearable sorrow, and so began to experience experience the
burden of wretchedness. There had to be a limit to
its evils. Death had to restore what life had forfeited
without the assistance of grace. Immortality is more of a

(04:20):
burden than a blessing. So I read that and I
was like, oh, wow, like that kind of aligns with
what Tolkien is getting at in this story, and that quote. Sure,
And it just happened to be something I read this morning,
that being all Souls Day, and this just happened to
be the day that we decided to record this episode.
So you know, I as I was rereading a Kalabase
in preparation for this episode. You know, I don't know

(04:42):
how many times I've read it now, but it just
strikes me how like it's such a deeply philosophical and
theological text, but it's still a story, Like it still
is this like kind of broad account of the rise
and fall of Numenor, but it's you know, there are

(05:03):
some passages within it that are just very uh like,
very deeply, like you spend a lot of time with it.
I mean this it's it's the nature of like the
writing and the Silm Million. It's just every paragraph feels
just so packed with it just feels like we do
an episode on each individual paragraph in the Silm Million.
So yeah, so yeah, any thoughts on that, Greta, No.

Speaker 2 (05:28):
I think that's.

Speaker 3 (05:31):
No.

Speaker 2 (05:31):
I love I love that quote from San Ambrose, and
I think you're right. I think it captures kind of
the the theme, one of the major themes of a
calib and I mean I think Tolkien like talks about
that almost explicitly in this about how death was not

(05:51):
part of the original plan, right like it entered the
world through sin. So yeah, and I feel like I
remember as I was rereading al Caalbeth this time too,
it just always strikes me that like this was I
think the first time I read at calab I was like,

(06:13):
was the first time I realized, oh my gosh, like
death is a gift, Like it's meant to be a gift,
and that I think it's very countercultural, yeah, way that
death is viewed in our society, but it makes so
much sense once you understand the core of the of
the reasoning.

Speaker 1 (06:34):
Yeah, yeah, for sure. And it's it's just such a
it's such a deep text and if you get to
if you want to get really to the heart of it,
it's it's it's like a meditation on the name on
like why, almost like a theological, theologically speculative exploration of mortality, right,

(06:58):
Like why why is it that we die? Right? Why
is it that we die? And should we be happy
that we die? Should we be sad that we die?
Should we be fearful of death? Should we be trusting
of death? All of these questions, you know, these these
are all like kind of things that maybe we don't
want to think about very often, but but really maybe

(07:20):
we should, right, Yeah, you know, maybe we should have
a deeper consideration, you know, for these questions. So anyway,
that's toldn telling us directly that that that's what's concerned,
you know, that's that's what's concerned here, right for all
of the other aspects of it. And you know, one thing,

(07:40):
I will say this very soon here, hopefully before the
end of this year, we are going to cover finally
cover author Beth Fenrada Andreath, which is and I want
to do it very soon because we're about to wrap
up our discussion of the Selm Mi million. You know,
we have after this episode, we'll have of the Rings
of Power and the Third Age, and then that's it

(08:01):
in terms of the text of the Selm Million. But
what's really interesting is that there is another text this
author Beth, which is found in the History of Middle
Earth volume ten, I believe, and from what I understand,
it was Tolkien's intention that that that that text should

(08:22):
actually be a part of the Selm Million is published,
but for whatever reason, it did not get included in
the in the final publication. And so it'll be interesting
to read it kind of on the tail end of
all this, because that that may be other than this
text that may be the the other text where Tolkien
really explores that question on a philosophical and theological level,

(08:46):
you know, the question of man's mortality. And it's really
interesting in there because he does it in a conversation
between a male elf, a male immortal right, and a
female mortal right. So anyway, well let's you know, let's
dive into a calibath. So the synopsis for this one,
with more goth having been finally defeated in the War

(09:07):
of Wrath, the men allied with the elves of baleriond
are rewarded with an earthly paradise, the island of Numanor. Yet,
over the course of a thirty three hundred year history,
the men of Numenor tragically discovered that the soul of
man desires things that the natural world cannot provide. So,
you know, just another again our our standard disclaimer. Read
this before you listen to the episode. You know, I

(09:29):
never want to like be the first voice that you
hear about any of Tolkien's works. I want Tolkien's own
words to be the thing you hear. So if you
if you know, if you're not able to get through
it without some help, that's fine. But like you know,
at least give it a try, you know. So, all right,
the big picture here, big picture. So before you even

(09:51):
get to a calibath, what you need to know about
the Second Age is that the Appendix BE of the
Lord of the Rings is your friend. Okay, And why
do I say that? Well, Appendix BE is the timeline
of the Second Age, right, it's a it's almost thirty
five hundred years this second age. And Appendix B in
the Lord of the Rings in a couple of pages,
lays out the major events of the Second Age right

(10:13):
there for you, okay. And there are some things that
happen in the Second Age that aren't mentioned here, but
in form you know why certain things happened. So if
you just want to kind of have an outline of
a kalabase before you dive in, Appendix B can be
very helpful to that. To that end, if you want

(10:35):
to just structure it in your mind in like three parts, right,
this story, you basically have the rise of Numenor at
the beginning of the Second Age, Then you have Sauron's
plot against Numenor, right, and then you have the fall
of Numenor. Okay, those are the three, uh, you know,
really the three parts to this story, all right. So

(10:59):
it picks up where we left off in chapter twenty four.
Essentially More Goth is finally defeated once and for all
More Goth as the individual More Goth right, and he's
banished beyond the world, and he's not able to ever
return until the end of the world. Okay, And we had,
of course in chapter twenty four we had Aarendol and

(11:20):
his great voyage, and then we learned of the two
sons that he had with l Wing, and they are
l Ros and el Rond. Okay, and a little more
on them in just a moment. But the deal is
is that more Goth, even though he's banished, he left
all of these works. You know, you can kind of
think about, like, you know, just somebody who had like

(11:45):
all of this, just created this vast, vast empire and
all of these minions, all of these you know, just
henchmen and people and just did all this evil and
you know, and finally like his central sort of power breaks, right,
he's gone, He's no longer a part of it. Nevertheless,

(12:06):
you have all of all of these other creatures, both
great and not so great, kind of doing still doing
their things, right, and and these operations that he's set
in motion. Okay, so all of those things still remain
right to some degree, and all of the lies, both
you know, both on a on a physical level and

(12:27):
on a spiritual level, right, you know, you think about it,
it's like there are these you know, the creatures, you know,
he the creatures he sort of we'll just use the
term right now, created. But there's also all of the
lies that he told, all of the ways he pitted
people against each other, all of these things, and like
the the the just foul fruits of those efforts still

(12:51):
exist in the world, right, you know, we we can
look back and know that he was responsible for the
first fall right of man here in this legendarium. It's
a very distant thing, but we know also we'll find
that when we read Authabeth that more Goth was, you know,
he was the one that really, in the in the
legendarium of Middle Earth, caused the first fall of man. Right,

(13:15):
So all of that still goes on. And so let's
read a little quote about Morgoth's minions here. So, Greta,
do you want to read starting here.

Speaker 2 (13:24):
In the Great Battle, when at last Morgoth was overthrown,
and van Gordrum was broken. The adane A, dying alone
of the kindreds of men fought for the Valar, whereas
many others fought for more Goth. And after the victory
of the lords of the West, those of the evil
Men who were not destroyed fled back into the east,
where many of their race were still wandering in the

(13:45):
unharvested lands, wild and lawless, refusing alike the summons of
the Valar and of more Goth. And the evil men
came among them and cast over them a shadow of fear,
and they took them for kings. Then the Valar forsook
for a time the men of Middle Earth, who had
refused their summons and had taken the friends of Morgoth
to be their masters. And men dwelt in darkness and

(14:06):
were troubled by many evil things that Morgoth had devised
in the days of his dominion, Demons and dragons, and
misshapen beasts, and the unclean orcs that are mockeries of
the children of Aluvitar. And the lot of men was unhappy.
But Manwei put forth Morgoth and shut him beyond the world,
in the void, that is without and he cannot himself
return again into the world present and visible, while the

(14:29):
lords of the West are still enthroned. Yet the seeds
that he had planted still grew and sprouted, bearing evil
fruit if any would tend them. For his will remained
and guided his servants, moving them ever to thwart the
will of the Valor and to destroy those that obeyed them.

Speaker 1 (14:46):
Yeah, so Morgoth is gone. He will not return in
in bodily form. He will not have direct influence anymore
over the events of the world. But nevertheless, there's still
a lot of evil in the world, right, And and really,

(15:07):
you know, you can kind of think about it in
these terms. There was a very small group of men,
the Adyne, right, who became friends with the elves, and
and they helped the elves and then eventually the forces
of allan Or overthrow more goth But the vast majority
of men, right, the vast majority of men that populate
the entire world, are still like in this existential darkness, right,

(15:31):
there's still you know, they they they still are kind
of under the sway, under the influence of more Gothic things. Right,
maybe they're slaves to them, but they are nevertheless, like
they're they're not, you know, for the most part, probably
not even aware that there are beneficent right, that they're

(15:56):
benevolent forces that may want to help them right in
the world that actually want their own, want their good. Right.
But back to the Yudine right, this small group, the
three the three Faithful Houses of men, right, who we
learned about in the body of the Selm Marillion, the Quintasilmarillion.

(16:17):
They're given a reward, right, They're given a reward, and
their their descendants are given this reward. And it is
this land of numenor this island kingdom, that is, if
you want to put it this way, halfway between Middle
Earth and half and valinor the blessed Realm. Okay, So
I'll read this passage about Numenor to the fathers of men,

(16:39):
the three Faithful Houses ritual ward also was given Aonwi
came among them and taught them, and they were given
wisdom and power and life more enduring than any others
of mortal race have possessed. A land was made for
the Adinne to dwell in, neither part of Middle Earth
nor of Valenor, for it was stundered from either by
a wide sea yet it was nearer to Valenor. It was.

(17:00):
It was raised by assay out of the depths of
the great water, and it was established by aou lay
and enriched by yavanna, and the Eldar brought thither flowers
and fountains out of toll Erseaea. That land the Valar
called Ondor the land of Gift, And the star of
Ehrendil shone bright in the west as a token that
all was made ready, and as a guide over the sea,
and men marveled to see that silver flame in the

(17:20):
paths of the sun. Then the Adine set sail upon
the deep waters, following the star, and the Valar laid
a peace upon the sea for many days, and sent
sunlight and a sailing wind, so that the waters glittered
before the eyes of the Adine like rippling glass, and
the foam flew like snow before the stems of their ships.
But so bright was roth and Zeal that even at

(17:41):
morning men could see it glimmering in the west, and
in the cloudless night it shone alone, for no other
star could stand beside it, and set setting their course
towards it. The Dyne came at last over leagues of sea,
and saw far the land that was prepared for them
Ondor the land of Gift, shimmering in a golden haze.
Then they went up out of the sea found a
country fair and fruitful, and they were glad. And they

(18:03):
called that land Elena, which is star wards, but also
on a Duna, which is westerness Numnoa in the Hildar tongue.
This was the beginning of that people that in the
Gray Elven speech are called the Dunodyne, the Newminorians, kings
among men. So when you read that term Dunodyne, uh
is referred to otter Gorn in Lord of the Rings.
That's what it's referring to, right, This, this heritage of

(18:25):
numenor of which he comes much later in the future. Yeah,
so numer sounds like a pretty nice place.

Speaker 4 (18:33):
An Gretta sounds so pretty fantastic. Qualifies as I want
to go to there, Yes, absolutely, So you know, think
about it like, you know, this is as close to
paradise on earth as men can get. Right, this is
it's it is that earthly paradise you know, which many
of us might imagine. Right, Okay, let's let's read a

(18:58):
little bit more about l Rond, el Rose and the Dounodyne.
So just a little more about them. We know that
el Rond l Ron chose They were given a choice, right,
So Arendil and el Wing were given a choice, and
then their sons were giving a choice. Do you want
to be Do you want your fate allotted with the
immortals or your fate allotted with the mortals?

Speaker 1 (19:17):
Right? Uh, l Ron chooses immortality, right, he's the half
Elven chooses immortality. L Ros chooses mortality. Right, he chooses
to be allotted. You have his fate allotted with men. However,
we learn that because of their their heritage that through

(19:38):
l Ros, right through his line, uh, there comes into
the you know, into this particular group of men. Uh,
not only the blood of elves, but the blood of
the Mayar as well. Right, because you go back a
couple of generations in the family tree and Melion, right

(19:59):
is one of their four mothers, right right, Well, Luthian
would have been the daughter of Malam, but Melion is
the my is the Mayar part of that, right?

Speaker 2 (20:07):
Yeah?

Speaker 1 (20:08):
So yeah, so so through that so this this this
royal House of Numenor, right, the Royal House of Numenor
descended from l Ros has within it h Elvish blood
and also the blood of the Mayar. Right, so something

(20:28):
whatever that might whatever that actually means, right, because what
would it mean to have the blood of the goddess,
right if you think of like a goddess being, this
spiritual being. Well, Melion for a time had a body, right,
even if that wasn't part of uh, you know, her
essential nature if you will, Okay, So, and then we

(20:51):
also learn about you know that even though they lived
in this in this paradise, right, the people of Numenor
lived in this paradise. One let me women mentioned one
other thing. One other thing is because of that descent,
there is and partly is a gift as well, there
is a longer lifespan given to Neumanorians. Right. You can

(21:13):
kind of think of it roughly as like the average
Newmanorian probably lived about two to three times as long
as the average man, and then the royal house of
the Newminorians lived even longer. Okay, so you're talking like
getting up into like four hundred you know, four hundred,
five hundred years in some cases, right, so you know,
unnaturally long life was given them. Right, you might think

(21:35):
to yourself. Sweet deal, right, And actually, if you want to,
if you want to understand how that worked in more detail,
you can read the Nature of Middle Earth where Tolkien
really really goes into a lot of detail about how
exactly that might work. And it's not just like, you know,
you live a normal like, you know, seventy years and
then you're old until you're four hundred. It's like you
you're actually like you're the span of think about like

(22:01):
if the span of your life in each sort of
stage of your life was given proportionally longer periods of time,
so you're like almost a child for a longer period
of time. You're in the prime of like you're the uh,
you know, the prime of your life for a much
longer period, and so on and so on. And then
even at death it was like, you know, not as

(22:22):
maybe not as fearful. Right, So just important to note
that the Newmnorians do live much longer than the average man. Okay,
so pretty sweet deal all in all for the new Manorians,
I'd say, right, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2 (22:37):
I mean yeah, island paradise longer than normal life.

Speaker 1 (22:43):
Yeah, yeah, it's pretty good to me. I mean I'll
take it. Yeah, I'll take it. Thanks Dad, appreciate the
appreciate all you did, right, yep. All right. So so
with all of this going on, though, there's still is

(23:03):
within the heart of man this desire for deathlessness, right
to be free from death? And why wouldn't there be
because they look at the elves and there's like why
do those guys get to live forever? And we don't
even know what's going to happen to us when we die? Right,
we all understand that, right, you think about death for
a minute, You're like, you know you can understand that.
You know, we all thought even if you weren't, you know,

(23:25):
if you're just new to these stories, knew the idea
of the immortal elves, like you're like, well why do
we have to die? Right? And think about if you
had the elves? But like around the elves and new
of the elves, and here's like, well they we look
pretty much the same, Like why do they get to
live forever and we have to die? And furthermore, like
we don't even know what happens when we die?

Speaker 2 (23:46):
Right, Yeah, you know I was thinking too that. Yeah,
I mean this like Newmanor's it sounds amazing, right, and
like a really like it sounds overall like a good deal,
but I almost like at the other part of me
is thinking like it's almost a little tease, you know,
it's almost it's like it's like almost there, right, Like

(24:11):
we almost are in Vallenre, but we're not. You know,
we're almost like the elves, but we're not. And in that,
I feel like it's not really surprising, but discontent could
be sown because you you know, like like you know
what's up here, right, and then you're like right here,

(24:34):
So it's like, you know, like it's I'm not saying
this was the Valor's intention in any way, shape or form,
but I can see where it would almost be harder
in a sense to be living like this and to
you know, be living like to be aware of basically
what you're missing out on.

Speaker 1 (24:55):
Right.

Speaker 2 (24:55):
Yeah, it's almost like, who was it, Sane Dah Saint Augustine.
Was he the one that said that abstinence or is
easier than moderation. Yes, it's like the same thing, right,
It's almost easier to just completely go without than it
is to have a little taste and be like.

Speaker 1 (25:14):
It's like yeah, you know, yeah, so that's all for you?

Speaker 2 (25:18):
Yeah, exactly.

Speaker 1 (25:20):
Well, I mean going back to it, right what Tolkien said, right,
reward on Earth is more dangerous for men and punishment.

Speaker 2 (25:25):
Yeah right, yeah, it's.

Speaker 1 (25:28):
Like, you know, does it ever? Would you really get
to the end of your life after a five time
longer lifespan? You know, so you know, think about it.
Your average you know, let's just say average lifespan is
eighty these days, right, you get you live to be
four hundred instead would you really be getting two three
fifty three sixty and not thinking to yourself like that

(25:49):
that went by quickly?

Speaker 3 (25:51):
Right? Yeah?

Speaker 2 (25:52):
I mean times passes at the same speed, right, I
mean yeah, yeah, maybe even faster when you think you
have more time than you actually do.

Speaker 1 (26:04):
Yeah, yeah, I could see that. I could see that's right.

Speaker 2 (26:06):
When like the closer you live to somewhere, like, the
easier it is for you to be late because you
don't have to plan ahead, or you don't think you
have to plan ahead.

Speaker 1 (26:17):
You know. It's like I feel like there's a like
there should be a moment in your life where able
to just be like because I can remember times when
it was just like life, uh, you know, like when
when you're like a teenager or something, or even like
a young you know, young adult early twenties, and you're
just like, oh, I have so much longer to live

(26:39):
and and then at some point it flips and you're like, oh,
like kind of starting to gently knock on Heaven's door,
you know, And but there's no moment in there where
it's like you're just like you're just living in the moment, right,
and you're like you're not not like, oh I have fore,

(27:01):
you know, like it's like there isn't like no, there's
no warning bells that go off and say like or
you know, notifications to go off and say like you
are now here in the prime of your life and
you need to enjoy it to the maximum extent possible. Right.

Speaker 2 (27:13):
Yeah, It's like you don't even realize you're in the
prime of life, your life until you're past it and
you're like, oh, man, I wish I enjoyed that more.

Speaker 1 (27:21):
You're either you're either looking forward to tomorrow or you're
looking backwards at yesterday, and you know that like gosh,
there's yeah.

Speaker 2 (27:30):
It's just this is getting to be a very depressing episode.

Speaker 1 (27:32):
Sorry I didn't mean it's so you just can't let
yourself be depressed by these things, right, because this is
this is about a contemplation, like a contemplation of it,
all right for sure? And and and for Tolkien, I
want to say, like, I think it's I think it's
important to make clear Like for Tolkien, Uh, this was

(27:53):
not like an endeavor that leads simply to despair, right.
For sure, this was a contemplation of of the of
the truth, the truths that he held most dearly because
of his because of his faith and his belief in
in the resurrection of Christ, right and the and the
uh and and the you know, and and in Christianity. Right.

(28:16):
So for him, death is not death is not the end, right,
But he's considering the plight of ancient men who did
not have the light of Christ, right, and so like
in terms of when I say the light of Christ,
what I mean is the light of of of like

(28:37):
the hope of resurrection. Right, that death is not the
end of the story. Right, Okay, So thank Heaven. Yeah
that would be depressing, Yeah, I mean it would be
it would be tough, right, Okay. So well, continuing on this,
the the valor get wind of like this wrestling with

(29:00):
the Newmonorians, so you know, kind of move forward some
into the history of Numenor, and things are still kind
of hunky dory in Numenor, but they're starting to kind
of like wonder like and maybe grumble a little bit, like, well,
why do the elves get to live forever? And we don't? Right,
It's it's basically what you were saying, right, you know, yeah,
you give us a longer life, but even still it's
just like this little, this little taste of bliss and

(29:22):
then we're gone, right, why can't we have what they have? Right?
And so they actually the Valor actually kind of begin
this conversation with the people of Numenor, right, and we
don't really like this isn't cast. It's like this is
cast is basically a conversation between emissaries from Valenor and
and the and the king at that point of nu Mienor. Right,

(29:45):
So let's read a little bit of this dialogue here,
so let's see how long is this? Okay, Greta, why
don't you start reading and maybe I'll pick up halfway through.

Speaker 2 (29:57):
The doom of the world. They said one alone can
change who made it? And were you so devoyage that
escaping all the seats and snares. You came, indeed to Aman,
the blessed realm. Little would it profit you, for it
is not the land of Manwey that makes it, makes
its people deathless, but the deathless that dwell therein. Have
hallowed the land, and there you would but whither and

(30:20):
grow weary, the sooner as moths in a light, too
strong and steadfast. But the king said, and does not
eruindel my forefather live, or is he is he? Or
is he not in the land of AmAm, to which
they answered, you know that he has a fade a part,
and was adjudged to the first born, who die not

(30:40):
yet this also is his doom, that he can never
return again to mortal lands, whereas you and your people
are not of the first born, but are mortal men,
as Aluvitar made you. Yet it seems that you desire
now to have the good of both kindreds, to sail
to Elinor when you will, and to return when he please,
to your homes. That cannot be, nor can the valor

(31:01):
take away the gifts of a Luvatar. The ldr, you say,
are unpunished, and even those who rebel do not die yet,
that is to them neither a reward nor punishment, but
the fulfillment of their being. They cannot escape, and are
bound to this world, never to leave it so long
as it lasts, for its life is theirs. And you

(31:21):
are punished for the rebellion of men, you say, in
which you had small part, And so it is that
you die, But that was not at first appointed for
a punishment. Thus you escape and leave the world, and
are not bound to it in hope or in weariness,
which of us therefore should envy the others.

Speaker 1 (31:38):
All right, we'll go and we'll gott and pause theve.
I mean, there's quite more. There's quite a lot more
to this conversation. And it's a again, you know, this
is just one of those where it's like I feel
like I could do a whole episode on this conversation alone.
But one thing I want to highlight here is that
these emissaries from the Valar, so really what's an issue

(31:59):
here is the the Neumanorian kings are like, why can't
we go to the blessed realm? Why we're right here,
we can see we can almost see it right. Why
can't we go there and enjoy the deathlessness of that land?
And they're like, well, it's not it's actually not the
land that makes you deathless. It's the people that live
here that are deathless, right, And in this world they create.

(32:20):
But it's like the light of this place might be
so overwhelming to you that it's like you die sooner
if you came here. Right, So it's a perilous place.
It actually is a perilous place for you, as I'm mortal.
But there's a catch, even for elves, there's a catch, right, Yes,
they are immortal, right, but they're forever tied to this world.

(32:41):
And that's the whole thing of like elves fading. Right.
We see the elves, especially in the store in the
Lord of the Rings, that they seem to kind of
like they seem to be growing like weary of this world.
But there's no escape for them from this world, right,
there's no there's no like escape for them from this world.

(33:02):
In fact, in kind of Tolkien's mind, if if you
carry forward history all the way into our period of time,
right many ages later, right past the Third Age, the
elves aka the fairies, right, they are like they're just
kind of these these wisps, they're just they've just faded, right,

(33:23):
and they're just kind of these like you know, disembodied
spirits that just kind of inhabit the world around us, right,
you know that it's almost like they've lost agency, but
they're still tied to this world. Okay, so it's not actually,
you know, we're starting to get the picture of like, Okay,
I can maybe start to see in this case, how
in this sense, how death is a gift for men, right,

(33:45):
that it's a release from this world, right, that it
isn't that we're not bound to that same fate of
just like of just growing utterly weary. Like we got
to all liken this to something you'll probably chuckle at,
you know, recently, Like I like and I don't know
whether it's just getting older or not getting of sleep
at night, but like I'll you know, we'll be getting

(34:08):
too like nine point thirty at night or something like that,
and I'll like want to you know, you get you
and the kids want to stay up longer, and I'm
just like, all right, I'm fading, Like I cannot It's
like I just cannot go any longer. I'd love to
stay up with you guys, but I'm just I'm fading,
and I feel like in kind of like that's like
a little physical picture of what this would feel like

(34:29):
for the elves right on like a spiritual existential level. Right,
It's like I want, I really want to go to
sleep right now. I am just tired and I do
not enjoy Like even if we're watching something that I enjoy,
I'm so tired and just like fading, Like I can't
even enjoy it. It's kind of painful.

Speaker 2 (34:48):
Again you've told me, you're like, don't you understand, like
this it's painful. It's like there's a reason it's called
fighting sleep, right, because it like is it's a battle.

Speaker 1 (34:57):
Yeah, yeah, And I I think there that's a little
picture of what the elves experience as time carries on
in this world. They'refoever tied to this world. But it's
like they're they they want to go to sleep, and
they almost they wish they could go to sleep, right
and just be done with the world, but they just

(35:18):
have to carry on in this in this increasing weariness, right,
and this increasing like I can't you know, you can see,
oh oh that would not be very pleasant. That's it
actually makes death seem like a good deal, like the quality.

Speaker 2 (35:31):
Of life, right, I mean Yeah, you might be able
to live forever, but what's that quality of that life like, Yeah,
you know, if it's not good, then that's that's not
a gift.

Speaker 1 (35:42):
Yeah, and you know what exactly what that that weariness
entails for the elves. You know, we won't get really
get into here, but it's it's worth thinking about as well, right,
because we do live in a world that, you know,
in the elves in this case, live in the world
of Middle Earth, where all of their efforts are you know,

(36:02):
constantly like under assault, right by the forces of more
goth right by the forces of evil, by the forces
of decay. Right, and in that in and of itself
would be wearying, right, would be wearying. All right. So
so this also really sets the stage for kind of
the existential problem of Numan or if you will, right, basically,

(36:25):
in a nutshell, not even paradise can soothe the heart
of the mortal heart of man. Not no earthly paradise
can soothe the heart of mortal man. Right, that's the
big problem for the heart of at the heart of
this story. Meanwhile, Souran, right, So yes, Meanwhile, Souron, all right,

(36:45):
let's find out what Suron has been up to here
in the Second Age. In this age, as is elsewhere told,
Suran arose again in Middle Earth and grew and turned
back to the evil in which he was nurtured by Morgoth,
becoming mighty in his service. Already in the days of
Tarmi year, the eleventh king of Numenor, he had fortified
the land of Mordor and had built there the Tower
of Baradur. And thereafter he strove ever for the dominion

(37:08):
of Middle Earth, to become a king over all kings,
and as God, and a god unto men. And Sauron
hated the Neumenorians because of the deeds of their fathers
and their ancient alliance with the Elves and allegiance to
the Valar. Nor did he forget the aid that Tarministir
had rendered to Gilgalad of Old in that time when
the One Ring was forged and there was war between
Souron and the Elves and Eriador. Now he learned that

(37:30):
the kings of Numenor had increased in power and splendor,
and he hated them the more, and he feared them
lest they should invade his lands and wrest him from
the dominions of the East. But for a long time.
He did not dare to challenge the lords of the sea,
and he withdrew from the coasts. Yet Sauron was ever guileful,
and it is said that among those whom he ensnared
with the nine rings, three were great lords of of

(37:51):
Numenorian race. And when the Ulari arose, that were the
ring Raiths his servants. And the strength of his terror
and mastery over men had grown exceedingly great. He began
to assail the strong places of the Newmnorians upon the
shores of the sea. So Souron, you know, this is
kind of jumping way forward into the history of the
Second Age. You know, again, if you reference the Second

(38:12):
Age timeline, there is a whole like Souron actually returns
to the to the scene very fairly early in the
history of the Second Age, and there's a whole there's
a whole like war between Souron and the Elves. There's
the creation of the rings of power. There is a
whole like epic battle between the Newmnorians and Souron. And

(38:36):
that's all. We've jumped past all of that, okay, in
terms of the timeline, and we're getting more towards the
end of you know, more towards the end of the
times of you know, of numenor right in the end
of the Second Age, because the rings of power are
created in the in the middle of this age, right,

(38:56):
So the three rings are completed in the year fifteen
ninety of the Second Age, and Saluron forges the one
ring in the year sixteen hundred, right, So at this
point he's already he's already completed Barrador. He's already you know,
there's already been this back and forth, and Saluron has
been kind of like forced to focus his attention toward

(39:18):
the east, but he harbors in his heart this deep
hatred for the Newmonorians because their forefathers worthy of Dine right,
who brought about that, you know, helped bring about the
defeat of more Goth. So it goes on to say
that the shadow in those days grew deeper. And again,
what is the shadow? What is meant by the shadow?

(39:38):
It's this, it's this big term in you know, in
kind of the Tolkienian scheme of things, right, and it
has multiple meanings, but in general it's it's the shadow
that's brought about by the work of more Goth. Right,
not always necessarily directly by more Goth. But it's it's
the way that the works of more Goth block out

(40:00):
the light right block out the spiritual light that should
be shed upon the entire world. So let's read about
Let's read a little bit about what the shadow and
its effect on Numenor, So Greta, can you read this passage?

Speaker 2 (40:16):
In those days the shadow grew deeper upon Numenor, and
the lives of the kings of the House of el
roswiged because of their rebellion. But they hardened their hearts
the more against the Valar, and the twentieth King took
the scepter of his father's, and he ascended the throne
in the name of doing a quarter lord of the West,
forsaking the Elvin tongues and forbidding their use and his hearing.

(40:38):
Yet in the scroll of Kings, the name Hero Newman
was inscribed in the high Elven speech because of ancient
custom which the kings feared to break utterly lest evil befall.
Now this title seemed to the faithful over proud, being
the title of the Valar, and their hearts were sorely
tried between their loyalty to the House of Elros and
their reverence of the appointed powers. But worse was yet

(41:01):
to come.

Speaker 1 (41:02):
For Argum Milzor, the.

Speaker 2 (41:05):
Twenty third king, was the greatest enemy of the faithful.
In his day, the White tree was untended and began
to decline, and he forbade utterly the use of the
Elven tongues and punished those that welcomed the ships of
Ersea that still came secretly to the west shores of
the land.

Speaker 1 (41:23):
Yeah. So the effect of this shadow growing upon numnorit right. So,
if you think about it, kind of this this desire
for deathlessness had only grown greater over those centuries, and
in the hearts of the kings and the new Minorian,
if you will, fondness for and allegiance to the valor

(41:45):
and friendship with the elves had waned over time. Right,
They've grown more suspicious over subsequent generations. And that's part
of the work of the shadow, right. It's instead of
kind of trusting that there is benevolent purpose to death,
it had been like, you guys have deathlessness and you're

(42:06):
withholding it from us, okay, And that just that continued
to sow over time until it was almost like numen
Or was in the process of becoming an enemy of Vallinore, right,
an enemy of the Blessed realm and of the Valor
and and so the kings are increasingly hostile. They do

(42:28):
things like this, the the idea of leaving the White
tree untended. I have other information elsewhere on this channel,
you know, done other episodes about things like the white
tree and what the white tree is, where it came from.
But basically, the white tree was Vallenor's gift and it
was supposed to It's an image of Telperion, right, one

(42:49):
of the two trees of Valinor. So, so the white
tree is left untended. That's another sign that they are
just they're not as concerned about their friendship with the
Blessed anymore. And uh so we see that even though
it's maybe not an active, forceful rebellion, uh they're the
spiritual rebellion against you know, against Valinor had begun.

Speaker 2 (43:15):
It's the breaking of tradition. Really, that's the you know,
kind of the catalyst that that really starts to move
them closer and closer towards the downfall, like the stop
you know. For for I found it kind of interesting
that they he didn't want he refused to take this
King refused to take an Elvin name, right, which was

(43:37):
a breakup tradition. But they still put the name Elvin
name in the book, right because they were afraid.

Speaker 1 (43:44):
To just they do it because they're afraid, not because
of the not because of not for all the right reasons.

Speaker 2 (43:49):
Exactly exactly.

Speaker 4 (43:50):
And then from there it just gets it's almost like
superstition at that point.

Speaker 2 (43:53):
Yes, exactly, that's exactly what it is.

Speaker 1 (43:56):
Yeah, And that's that's such an interesting idea that like
what what actually was something meaningful and true at one
point it becomes it starts to feel superstitious when it's
when it's when the when the heart of it and
the trust is no longer there, like the true the
true meaning you're going through the motions of it. And
so you look at that and be like, oh, you're
just superstitious. Well maybe it looks maybe that action looks

(44:18):
superstitious now because it's because it's divorced, your understanding is
divorced from the meaning of it, right, the original meaning
of it. Right. And that's so often true of things
that we attribute to being superstitious, right, that we say
are superstitious is a lot of times there was an
original purpose for that right that was full of meaning
and significance. Yeah, And I was just thinking, this just

(44:42):
popped into my head, and I know I didn't want
to get too deeply, too deep into the whole the
whole issue of the white tree and and name loth.
It'll come up here again shortly, but one thing I'll
say about it that pops into my mind, and I'm
I think there may be something to this. I've made
the connection before, like if you're read if you read
my book Tolkien's Requiem, I talk about like the symbolism

(45:05):
of the the silver tree of Telperion and the gold
tree of Laurelen, and you have the moon and the sun, right,
and then you have elves and men. And it's like
elves are kind of like the silver the silver color,
and men or the gold color, because the men or
men first appear with the rising of the sun, right

(45:25):
whereas before under the silver light is when you know
the stars, was when the elves awoke many many generations before.
And and so the idea that there's only one tree
here instead of like two images to two tree, why
don't they have why didn't they give them two trees, right, Like,
you know, if there were two trees of Eleanor, why
didn't they give them two trees to symbolize the two
trees of Eleanor. Well, it makes me think that they

(45:47):
give them the silver tree, because that's kind of like, here,
tend this is a sign of your of your of
your fondness for the elves, right as your sign of
a fond of your friendship with the elves, because the
silver tree rep hence the elves, right, And the moment
that they try that, they they they cease tending to

(46:08):
the needs of niem Loth, the silver tree the white tree,
because they no longer have a fondness for the elves, right.

Speaker 2 (46:17):
So yeah, that makes sense.

Speaker 1 (46:18):
Yeah. So it's almost like they're to like remind them,
like their friendship with the elves, of their even of
their Elvish heritage, right, especially for the kings, the kings
of Numenor. Right. Yeah, so yeah, anyway, that yeah, it
just popped in my head just because I was kind
of thinking about all these things. All right. So, so

(46:41):
in this context, the last king of Neumenor arises, and
he is an unrightful king. Nevertheless, he is the last
he's kind of in the usurper if you will, and
it is this individual photozone photo zone. Now Gimilkad died
two years before his two hundredth year, and you think
about that, So they were living like four or five
five hundred years early on in the history, and now

(47:02):
gamil Cood two hundred years he dies, and it says
that was an accountant an early death for one of
l Ros's line, even in its waning. But this brought
no peace to the king, for farozone, son of Gamilkod,
to become a man yet more restless and eager for
wealth and power than his father. He had fared often
abroad as a leader in the wars that the new
Minorians made then in the coast lands of Middle Earth,

(47:23):
seeking to extend their dominion over men, and thus he
had won great renowned as a captain both by land
and by sea. Therefore, when he came back to Numenor,
hearing of his father's death, the hearts of the people
were turned to him, for he brought with him great
wealth and was for the time free in his giving.
And so the rightful king tar volunteer passes away. And

(47:43):
though the scepter should pass to his daughter Muriel our
faro Zone usurps it and forces Mariel to be his wife, right,
and you know, really bad stuff here because they're basically
first cousins, right, so you know, you basically have Pharazone
like a coup, right and taking over of from the

(48:05):
rightful you know, who should have been the rightful monarch
of Numnor, so Pharoson. Yeah, bad dude, all right. And
what we find is that fara Zone leads a mighty
army to Mordor to challenge Suron. He hears about all
these things that Suron is doing again here late in
the second age, here's about all these things that Suron's doing,

(48:27):
and he's like, Okay, I'm gonna take the fight to Suron.
So it's not like Nu Minor here is aligning themselves
with Souron yet, right, And so you're like, oh man,
this is going to be like big, you know, new
Minorian armies against Souron's armies like boom, going to be
like massive battle like War of the Wrath part two.
Not so much, not so much. Town. Turns out surn

(48:49):
has a different plan, So Grete, you want to read
the red text here?

Speaker 2 (48:53):
Yes, so I'm just gonna start a little bit ahead
of that, just because so basically they end up in
like Farzan basically commands Saron to come before him and
to swear to him fealty. And Saron came, even from

(49:13):
his mighty tower of Bahadur. He came and made no
offer of battle, for he perceived that the power and
majesty of the kings of the Sea surpassed all rumor
of them, so that he could not trust even the
greatest of his servants to withstand them. And he saw
not his time yet to work his will with the Dunodine.
And he was crafty, well skilled to gain what he

(49:33):
would by subtlety when force might not avail. Therefore he
humbled himself before Arfarzon and smoothed his tongue. And men wondered,
for all that he said seemed fair and wise. But
our Farizon was not yet deceived, and it came into
his mind that for the better keeping of Saron and
of his oaths of fealty, he should be brought to

(49:55):
numanor there to dwell as a hostage for himself and
all his servants in Middle Earth. To this, so as
scented as one constrained, Yet in his secret thought he
received it gladly, for it chimed indeed with his desire.
And Sauron passed over the sea and looked upon the
land of Numnor and on the city of Armanellos in
the days of its glory, and he was astounded, but

(50:15):
his heart within was filled the moor with envy and hate.

Speaker 1 (50:18):
So Saron comes to Numanor willingly as a he comes
as a prisoner, and you think, like, okay, well, then
I guess they beat Sauron while you know, end of story,
everybody lived happily ever after. But you can probably surmise
not so much. Saron knew exactly what he was doing,
and he goes and essentially over time seduces Numenor. And

(50:42):
what does he seduce them to, Well, he seduces them
to the worship of the dark Lord of Morgoth. Right,
so and so this doesn't mean that more Goth has
returned in bodily form, but you kind of think of
like this this dark, hidden spiritual presence, right that he's
shad He seduced them to the to the worship of

(51:03):
you know, of the darkness. So I'm gonna read this.
I'm gonna pick this up there. This is just always
strikes me so deeply, all right, And Fatrazone said, he's
speaking to Sauron, who is the Lord of the Darkness.

(51:24):
Then behind locked doors, Sauron spoke to the king, and
he lied, saying, it is he whose name is not
now spoken, for the valor have deceived you concerning him,
putting forward the name of Eru, a phantom devised in
the folly of their hearts, seeking to enchain men in
servitude to themselves, For they are the oracle of this Eru,
which speaks only what they will. But he that is

(51:47):
their master shall yet prevail, and he will deliver you
from this phantom. And his name is Melchor, Lord of all,
giver of freedom, and he shall make you stronger than
they then are. Fotzone, the King returned back to the
worship of the dark and of Melchor, the Lord thereof,
at first in secret, but erelong openly and in the
face of his people, and they for the most part

(52:08):
followed him. So I just always like, that's that passage
just always hits me very powerfully. You have this picture
of our fat Zone as this, you know, just just
lordly imperial, like you know, almost like Alexander the Great,

(52:31):
Julius Caesar kind of figure, right, you know, just this ancient,
ancient lord of armies, right, you know, just capable of
conquering anywhere in the world. And he's speaking to Sauron here,
and he almost sounds like a child. Right, who is
the lord of darkness?

Speaker 3 (52:52):
Right?

Speaker 1 (52:53):
Who is the lord of the darkness? Right? And and again,
like you know, you may remember when we were talking
about the Rings of Power, and I expressed a lot
of disappointment with the way they characterized our para zone.
Nothing against the actor, but like just the writing. And
I just think, like, I hear this person I read,
I read this character in Tolkien's works, and I think

(53:14):
our phara zone is this ah, He's he is this
powerful person who is overflowing with existential despair. Right. He
wants to beat death, right, and he is willing to

(53:36):
do and he's willing to take the He's willing to
take an answer from anybody that will that will promise
him that he can do it, right, And and I
just and I hear this like he's like a little kid.
When he realizes that Sauron might have the answer, right,
and it's almost it's almost pathetic, right, like pathetic and

(54:02):
terrifying at the same time, right, because of what he
might be willing to do. Right. So anyway, like I
just I think this is such a powerful passage, and
you see Suron twisting the truth to say, like, you know,
the Valor they you know, Eru isn't this real thing.

(54:23):
He's just like you know, he's just this thing they
made up and they're telling you that's what he said,
so that you'll think there's this powerful, all powerful you know,
being behind everything. But really you need to worship Melcor, right,
you need to worship Melcor And what does the worship
of melcor entail? How about a little human sacrifice sound good? Yeah,

(54:44):
so that's what that's what they ultimately return to here. Yeah,
we get the white Tree destroyed and we get the
persecution of the faithful. Now, the faithful are are essentially
the party, the minority party of hum Nor that wants
to remain friends with the Elves and allied with allied

(55:06):
with the Valar. Right, so you can see how this
is all going to work out poorly for them, because
if our far zone now believes that the Valor are
actually withholding you know, immortality from them, deathlessness from them.
This is going to work out for the This is
not going to work out well for those who want

(55:28):
to hold to you know, to the faith of the
old ways and of Valinor. Right. So, yeah, so what
we have is that Suran establishes a temple. Now, it's
important to note that Numanor had already had a religious
cult that was part of the initial heritage that was

(55:50):
given to them, right, And it involved the mountain of
mental Tarma, which was in the center of Numenor, and
on the top of that mountain, the very top of
that mountain, there was no temple they would but it
was they would go there three times a year and
the king of Neumanor would would offer prayers to Elubatar,
right to Eru. Right. But now uh Saron constructs a temple, right,

(56:15):
he constructs a temple, and in this temple they offer
they burn humane they burn human sacrifices, right, So they
they sacrifice the faithful, and eventually they start kidnapping people
in kidnapping men in Middle Earth and bringing them back
for human sacrifices as well.

Speaker 2 (56:33):
Right. So it's gone from just initial neglect right when
they just stopped making their pilgrimages to the mental tarma
and now it's you know, it's all the way to
just blatant mockery, m right, yep, just that that's suppery,
that suppery slope.

Speaker 1 (56:53):
And murder, I would say, like like not just mockery,
but like yeah but murder.

Speaker 2 (56:57):
Right, yes, sacrilege, yeah, absolutely.

Speaker 1 (57:02):
And the and the scheme here was that surn is
basically telling our farone you know, hey, just you know,
human sacrifice that will help you achieve this deathlessness, right,
that will help you achieve what you're trying to achieve
right now. How that works, I don't know how he
explained that to him, but that was kind of the
scheme here. That was why the you know, why the
human sacrifice was, you know, what was going on?

Speaker 2 (57:22):
So right, yeah, and it's was you know, just thinking
of our far zone two. It's interesting that you mentioned
that that when he asked who is the Lord of
the Darkness? That that kind of strikes you as like
kind of like a little kid like you know, desperate
for you know, for immortality, and which I think is true,

(57:45):
but it struck me as like what what he's like.
I think the reason he wants deathlessness is because he
enjoys his power so much and he never wants to
lose that power. And Surron is offering him more, right
because even says right before that, he says, only the

(58:06):
Lord of Darkness can create more and more dominions for
each rule, right, And and that's ultimately what off Ourson
wants is he wants he wants that power like he's
drunk on that, you know, that sense of power and
all that that means to him. And not to go

(58:28):
back too far, but when when he mentioned that, when
he asked who is the Lord of Darkness? What I
what that reminded me of is that passage in the
Bible or say, is who is the King of Glory?

Speaker 1 (58:39):
Oh yeah, yeah yeah, And it.

Speaker 2 (58:41):
Was like just totally twisted, right, Like it's not who
is the King of Glory, it's who is the Lord
of Darkness? Right, And it's just a complete twisting of
of you know, of that passage.

Speaker 1 (58:54):
So yeah, no, that's a great point. I uh yeah,
I have to think that maybe Tolkien had that in
mind when, yeah, when he wrote that, right, because I.

Speaker 2 (59:02):
Feel like that, you know, like that that question who
is the King of glory in and of itself is
so like it's so heavy, right and meaningful and just
like you just twisted, but it still has that same weight.
Who is the lord of darkness? Like it still has
that same weight, but it's it's twisted for evil purposes.

Speaker 1 (59:22):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, you really get like kind of this,
this idea of Suron is like just total just total
anti Antichrist in the sense of being like coming with
a false, false gospel, you know, like yeah that you know,
this is the way you beat death, right, you know, yeah,
turned back, you know, you worship the Lord of darkness, right, right.

Speaker 2 (59:44):
It's reminiscent too of christ temptation in the Desert, right
where basically Satan promises him all of this, right, He's like,
just bow down to me and all of this can
be yours, right, Like, it's the same idea here of
what Sauron is offering of zone. Of course we know

(01:00:06):
that that's an empty promise, but that a far a
zone doesn't know that it's right.

Speaker 3 (01:00:11):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:00:12):
Well, so thereafter the fire and smoke went up without ceasing,
for the power of Souron daily increased, and in that
temple with spilling of blood and torment, and great wickedness.
Mid made sacrifice to Melcor that he should release them
from death, and most often from among the faithful, they
chose their victims, yet never openly on the charge that
they would not worship Melcor, the giver of freedom. Rather
was cause sought against them, that they hated the king

(01:00:34):
and were his rebels, or that they plodded against their kin,
devising lies and poisons. These charges were for the most
part false, Yet those were bitter days, and hate brings
forth hate. So gosh I and I'm sorry to have
to kind of go here, but I've been listening over

(01:00:54):
the last several months to an audio book version of
The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich, which is
kind of this like definitive account of of the of
like how not how the Nazi Germany came to be
and how it was ultimately defeated, and and as I
read that passage, I just can't help but think that,
like Tolkien, Tolkien paid attention to all of the what

(01:01:17):
was going on before the war, during the war, and
then to what the Nuremberg trials to, you know, when
all of the stuff was coming out about like all
of the things the Nazis had done. I mean, it'll
make it'll just make your I mean, you if you're
old enough, you've heard enough. But the more you hear
about it, you're just like, I can't it's unfathomable, like

(01:01:38):
like the depravity and the evil and all of that
that was going on, Like I just can't imagine how
how human beings could be capable of such things. But
they did, they did those things. And you read this
and you see like the operations how it's described here
in this one paragraph, and and it's like, yeah, I

(01:01:58):
bet it's not I Betlkan was paying was paying some
it was reading the newspaper during the Nuremberg trials and
read about a lot of this stuff, you know, and
the things that were going on, the things that nas
the Nazis had done, and the way they you know,
the way the way they were so good at propaganda
and like, uh you know and like and like spending
everything they did to make it seem a little just

(01:02:21):
just reasonable enough, right and then but but they were
totally just just murderous, you know, just the worst kind
of murderous gangsters, criminals, thugs that you can possibly think of.
And uh, yeah, but you know this is like Tolkien.
Lift Tolkien lived through this time like he did, he

(01:02:44):
really did.

Speaker 2 (01:02:44):
And uh, you know, I mean and this fire and
smoke right that that it says was, you know, went
up without ceasing. That's like that's a visible manifestation of
the shadow. Yeah, oh yeah, because you think about smoke, right,
and just even the ash and you know, even when
it's like actually smoking that it looks very shadowy. Right,

(01:03:07):
It's dark and it's dirty, and then even when it's gone,
you still have the the ash that's left behind, and
so it's it's just it's just a yeah, it's just
like they can actually see the shadow or the effects
really of the shadow.

Speaker 1 (01:03:24):
Yeah, yeah, great point. I like that that that that
cloud going up from the smoke going up represents again
just this visible manifest manifestation of the shadow. So so
we learned that among the faithful, the leader of the
faithful during this time is this man named Amandil. And

(01:03:44):
Amandil is the father of elind Deal. Elindel is the
father of a sill door and a Naran, a sial
door we we know from the Lord of the Rings.
So Amandeel, you know, is this and he's I mean,
he's a lord, he's he's he's one of the kings advisors.
And it actually says somewhere in here that he and
farra Zone were actually friends when they were young. Right,

(01:04:05):
they were actually like kind of buddies when they were young,
which is really interesting to think about. Now, Amandil attempts
he gets win that Fara Zone has this increasing malice
towards towards Valen or towards the Valar, and that Saron
is plotting these lies, and Amandil wants to go and
undertake another voyage of Erindil to journey to the Blessed

(01:04:28):
Rome and to plead on behalf of New Minor for
the salvation of Numanor. Right, so Amandil undertakes undertakes this journey,
but apparently to no avail. We never hear from Amandil again.
But Amandil tells Ellendil and his sons to take all
of the faithful and be ready to escape from Numenor
when the time is right, right, because he has a

(01:04:49):
sense that things are about to get really ugly for Numanor.
But Farrazone, with all this influence from Suron, he decides
that he is going to march right up to the
doorstep of the Valor and he's gonna give him the
what for, right, So he assembles this incredibly vast fleet.
They go an attempt to assail Vallenor, and it all

(01:05:13):
ends very poorly for Farra Zone and ultimately for New Minor.
Neumanor is assailed by a great cataclysm and is sunk
beneath the waves, and that is the end of Numenor,
but not the end of all Newmonorians, because we have
this group Elindel and sons and many of the faithful

(01:05:35):
that stay with them, and they are the exiles of
New Minor journey to journey to Middle Earth and establish
the northern Kingdom of Arnor and the southern Kingdom of
Gondor Gondor. So that's where Gondor came from, the origin
of Gondor. Finally we get we get Souron's return to

(01:05:58):
Middle Earth. So Souron Sauron does return to Middle Earth
after he accomplishes everything he wants to accomplish. Pretty you know,
he's got to be patting himself on the back. He's like,
you know, man, idiots like I totally just they fell
for it, right, I Like, you know, I made them
think I was surrendering. They brought me right to the

(01:06:20):
heart of everything, and then they fell for my tricks.
Oh man, if only if only Melkor was here, he'd
give me. He'd give me the biggest high five. He'd
give me the biggest high five. Yep, all right, So Saluron,
you want to read this passage about Suran here.

Speaker 2 (01:06:36):
Sure, For Saron himself was filled with great fear at
the wrath of the Valar, and the doom of the
and the doom that Airu laid upon sea and land.
It was greater far than aught he had looked for,
hoping only for the death of the new Menorians and
the defeats of their proud king. And Sauron, sitting in
his black seat in the midst of the temple, had

(01:06:57):
laughed when he heard the trumpets of our far zone
sounding for battle. And again he had laughed when he
heard the thunder of the storm, and a third time
even as he laughed at his own thought, thinking what
he would do now in the world, being rid of
the Adine forever. He was taken in the midst of
his mirth, and his seat and his temple fell into

(01:07:18):
the abyss. But t Saran was not of moratl flesh.
And though he was robbed now of that shape in
which he had wrought so great an evil, so that
he could never again appear fair to the eyes of men,
yet his spirit arose out of deep, out of the deep,
and passed as a shadow in a black wind over
the sea, and came back to Middle Earth and to Mordor,
that was his home. Then he took up again his

(01:07:40):
great ring in Barad'or, and dwelt there, dark and silent,
until he wrought himself a new guise, an image of
malice and hatred made visible, and the eye of Sauron
the terrible few could endure.

Speaker 1 (01:07:53):
Yeah, So Sauron returns to Mordor, takes up his abode
and and sits there and enjoys the fruit of his
dastardly deeds. There's an epilogue, and it speaks of what
happens to the world at the you know, with this,

(01:08:15):
the downfall of Neumnor, the drowning of the Isle of
new Minor, And essentially what happens is the world is made,
is made round, it's bent so that there is no
longer a straight road to valen Or right. So, in
a way, Vallenor no longer exists within with within the

(01:08:38):
world in a physical way, right, even though it is
still a physical land, it has to be something that's
kind of gifted to people who come there, right, you know,
So that is that's another consequence of this downfall of
Neumnor' is that the world is no longer uh there,
There is no longer a straight way to valen Or.

(01:08:59):
So well, you know, this is one of those chapters
where there's just I mean, it's a it's first of all,
it's it's pretty long. It's one of the longer chapters
in the book. And you know, it's there's so much
in here, and you know, and I think we've done
maybe when we first did I think we did like
four episodes on it, and then we've done other lots
of other discussions where it involves a Kalabath and other

(01:09:21):
stories of the Second Age. I've got a playlist on
YouTube which I'll link to in the notes, which you know,
you can just kind of listen to all the episodes
we've done over the years that concern New Minor in
the Second Age. There's so much to be said about
about New Minor. It's one of the most interesting aspects
of the whole legendarium. So I encourage you to go

(01:09:42):
listen to that if you want more information on you know,
on New Minor and the story of New Minor. And
then for our next episode or last episode on the
Silmar Million twenty twenty two will be of the Rings
of Power and the Third Age, and that more or
less continues or kind of parallels the story of New
Minor in terms of timeline and rounds out what happens

(01:10:03):
uh at the end of the Second Age after the
destruction of New Minor with the last alliance of men
and elves, and then continues the story on into the
Third Age and eventually to what we know is the
events of the Lord of the Rings. So there you go. Yeah,
any final thoughts on a Caliban.

Speaker 2 (01:10:22):
I mean, yeah, there's a there's so much more in
here that you know, that we could that we could
talk about. But I feel like, really that's good for now.

Speaker 1 (01:10:32):
All right, yeah, good, yeah, all right, good stuff. So
let's let's do someokup, let's do it all right, Rock
paper scissors.

Speaker 2 (01:10:42):
Shoot, boom, you can go first.

Speaker 1 (01:10:46):
All right, ahem, almost paradise, We almost see vallan or
Fara zone once more. Oh that's good, it's really yea is.

Speaker 3 (01:11:02):
Almost we almost see you gotta do it again, almost
parrot for resonts is he wants more.

Speaker 1 (01:11:14):
There you go.

Speaker 2 (01:11:15):
That was good.

Speaker 1 (01:11:16):
That was you know, it's not really the same, but yeah,
I thought about throwing some about Kevin Bacon in there too,
but you know, anyway, it's you know, haiku is just
so economical. You just don't have You have to be
really efficient with your You have to.

Speaker 2 (01:11:31):
Be very very efficient. Yes, all right, here's mine, buried, burned, bent,
lives lost in the resting of undeath from the Deathless.

Speaker 1 (01:11:46):
Nice. Nice, I like that very good.

Speaker 2 (01:11:48):
Thanks. Yeah, of course your's wins because no, I don't
think so. Paradise is an amazing song.

Speaker 1 (01:11:55):
Well it is. It is an amazing song. But mine
was a little more you know, tongue in cheek. Yours
is actually more befitting, I would say of the you know.

Speaker 2 (01:12:05):
The vibe. Yeah, thanks, yeah, all.

Speaker 1 (01:12:11):
Right, well we both did well. I think we can
both give our souls a little good job. All right,
thank you, thank you very much. All right, Hey, subscribe
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(01:12:53):
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