May 12, 2025 • 53 mins
Our 2025 Silmarillion journey continues with Chapter 13 of Quenta Silmarillion - Of the Return of the Noldor.
The action really picks back up in Chapter 13: a faceoff between Fëanor and Balrogs, the capture and torment of Maedhros, a confrontation with Thingol, and to top it all, Melkor introduces a dragon into the mix!
Over the next several months, we'll be continuing to revisit the entire 30-episode Silmarillion series that Greta and I recorded back in 2022.
While you're listening, check out SilmGuide.com for guides to individual chapters.
To support our work here, please visit Patreon.com/TolkienRoad.
Enjoy!
OTHER LINKS:
Video of this episode: https://youtu.be/NfTQcLXGQHY
Watch AD-FREE: https://www.patreon.com/posts/128713592
Listen AD-FREE: https://www.patreon.com/posts/66583711
Buy Tolkien Road merch @ True Myths Press
Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/the-tolkien-road--5222755/support.
The action really picks back up in Chapter 13: a faceoff between Fëanor and Balrogs, the capture and torment of Maedhros, a confrontation with Thingol, and to top it all, Melkor introduces a dragon into the mix!
Over the next several months, we'll be continuing to revisit the entire 30-episode Silmarillion series that Greta and I recorded back in 2022.
While you're listening, check out SilmGuide.com for guides to individual chapters.
To support our work here, please visit Patreon.com/TolkienRoad.
Enjoy!
OTHER LINKS:
Video of this episode: https://youtu.be/NfTQcLXGQHY
Watch AD-FREE: https://www.patreon.com/posts/128713592
Listen AD-FREE: https://www.patreon.com/posts/66583711
Buy Tolkien Road merch @ True Myths Press
Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/the-tolkien-road--5222755/support.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hey there, fellow travelers. Our twenty twenty five Silm Million
journey continues with chapter thirteen of Quentasilmarillion of the Return
of the Noldor. The action really picks back up in
chapter thirteen, a face off between fan Or and ball rogs,
the capture and torment of Methros, a confrontation with Thingle,
and to top it all, Melkor introduces a dragon into
the mix. Over the next several months, will continue revisiting
(00:22):
the entire thirty episode Selm Million series that Greta and
I recorded back in twenty twenty two. While you're listening,
check out Silmguide dot com. That's silmguide dot com for
guides to individual chapters. You can find that link in
the show notes. To support our work here, please visit
Patreon dot com slash Tolkien Road Enjoy. Hey there, fellow travelers.
(00:43):
Welcome to The Tolkien Road, episode two ninety two. Greta,
you're ready to get back into the action.
Speaker 2 (00:48):
I'm ready.
Speaker 1 (00:50):
I'm ready, yours, Gretty as we decided as were?
Speaker 2 (00:55):
Hey, you decided? Yeah. I wish I could say I'm
rested and ready, but I'm actually only ruddy. It's fine, Yeah,
it's just a busy You know.
Speaker 1 (01:05):
We both sound bad. We both have.
Speaker 2 (01:08):
I didn't even notice it with you, but while you
were yelling. Yeah, I've not been yelling. I just have.
I don't know. I'm a nurse, so who knows what
I have? But yeah, it don't sound great.
Speaker 1 (01:22):
To be clear, I was I was inspiring young athletes.
Oh right, that's what.
Speaker 2 (01:27):
I was doing, Inspiring young athletes. That's code for yelling
at middle school boys.
Speaker 1 (01:35):
If anybody needs it as middle school boys. Let's face it,
that is true. In this episode, we will be discussing
chapter thirteen of the Summarillion of the Return of the
Noll Door.
Speaker 2 (01:44):
Great chapter, so exciting.
Speaker 1 (01:48):
Before we get started, we'd like to give a double
up air five to our patrons put them hands up
three two one oshed special thanks to this episode of
executive producers John R. Caitlin of t with Tolkien and
Jacob Blockham.
Speaker 2 (02:04):
Thanks guys.
Speaker 1 (02:05):
Become a patron by visiting Patreon dot com slash Tolkien Road.
Doing so get you cool perks like twenty percent off
of everything at trumanspress dot com. Plus your financial support
helps the Tolkien Road to keep on evering on. Learn
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Hit that like button, hit that like button, Hit that
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us know what's on your mind in the comments below.
(02:28):
So before we dive in, sorry, we're a little late
on this episode. Just been a busy you know, we're
busy right now. Just a lot going on, and we
of course didn't get to the live stream in April.
You know, we're gonna make up for that with an
extra awesome live stream next time we do a live stream,
which hopefully will be this month. And then we you know,
our oldest child graduated from high school this past weekend,
(02:52):
so you know, in the weekend. It's around the weekends
when we normally are doing our recording thing, and like
I was saying, doing a lot of inspiring young athletes
at this time as well. So anyway, I've just got
a lot going on. So yeah, yeah, so that's why
we are late. But here we go. Let's do this
without further ado, shall we.
Speaker 2 (03:14):
Let's do it?
Speaker 1 (03:15):
Okay, yeah, all right. Quote of the Week from Silmarillion,
chapter thirteen. His prayer was answered swiftly from Manwey to
whom all birds are deer, and to whom they bring news.
Upon Tanequittal from Middle Earth had sent forth the race
of eagles, commanding them to dwell in the crags of
the North and to keep watch upon mor Goth. For
Manwey still had pity for the exiled elves. So we
(03:39):
see a couple of times in this chapter, I just
like this one. We see a couple of times in
this chapter that the Valar have not utterly forsaken the
noldor right, and the elves of Middle Earth. They still
have a heart for them. They still, I would say,
they still even love them, right, and despite you know,
(04:01):
the banishment that they that they've imposed upon them, they
are going to help them. Some manway does it at
one point, and then Almo does it at another point,
helps them. And of course the very fact that the
sun in the moon exist and the sky are proof
of that, right, proof of the Valor, you know, to
some degree. Of course that wasn't the only reason for
creating the moon in the sun, but to some degree
(04:22):
was also to you know, to help to help those elves.
So yes, yeah, there I go, all right. So, having
arrived in bellariond Fan Or and company waste no time
in confronting more goth In chapter thirteen, we'll learn of
the fate of fan Or through unification of the Noldor thingles,
reaction to the return of the Noldor, the second and
(04:45):
third battles of Bealarion, a Dragon, the first Dragon, and
much more. Disclaimer, as with each episode, we won't be
covering every detail this chapter, but instead doing our best
to hit the high points and unpack interesting and important
det tales. And this is another long chapter. We're gonna
hit the high points and have some interesting discussion along
(05:05):
the way. Don't expect us to cover every single detail,
like we've done a pretty good job of that in
some of the shorter chapters, but this one, there's just
too much, and we're trying to get this, uh, you know,
do one episode on this particular chapter today.
Speaker 2 (05:17):
It's fair to say we'll be providing like a bird's
eye view. Maybe I like that, Yeah, clever, Thanks, You're welcome.
Speaker 1 (05:26):
All right. So we are in the year of the
Sun one as we begin this begin this chapter. Actually,
I would say it even begins a little before that,
because when fan Or and company return, it's still the
sun the sun has not yet risen, so really let's
(05:48):
you know, let's just kind of go straight to the action,
so we know, you know, just to pick up where
we left off. You know, we we we know that
the Noldor have left a'm on, They've left the blessed realm.
They traveled north, Uh, fan Oors and fan Ors smaller
company of than old Or were in the lead, and
uh and then Finolfin and the larger company than old
(06:11):
Or were kind of bringing up the rear, and fan
Or like a big jerk, took the ships that they
had stolen from the Tillary and sailed them across and
was like see if in golf and have fun on
the other side and burn the ships, so that fin
Golfing and co. Had to go through even further north
and go through the Helkaroxe the hell of Ice, right,
(06:34):
So Fin golf And and company are coming behind, you know,
by a significant amount of time. So Uh, fan Or
and company arrive back in Middle Earth, and you know,
I mean a long journey. You know, what do you
want to do after a long you know, a long
journey like that, Grete, I mean, you know, you immediately
probably want to go and do battle with the greatest
(06:54):
villa in the world has ever known.
Speaker 2 (06:56):
Absolutely, Yeah, I mean that's r and r y, it's
for the the week.
Speaker 1 (07:04):
Yeah. Well, not all of us are the fiery spirit, right,
not all of us have the fiery spirit that fan
Or does. Fan Or just goes straight to g Bond
and uh, and he's like, where's more Goth? Where is
more Goth?
Speaker 2 (07:20):
Where are my sols? That's what he wants to know.
Speaker 1 (07:24):
All right, Well, let's read about what happens when he
goes and uh and attempts to confront more Goth. So
glad to do you want me to read this?
Speaker 2 (07:31):
Or yeah?
Speaker 1 (07:32):
You go? Okay? All right? For fan Or and his
wrath against the enemy would not halt, but pressed on
behind the remnant of the Orcs, thinking so to come
at mor Goth himself. And he laughed aloud as he
wielded his sword, rejoicing that he had dared the wrath
of the Valaur and the evils of the road, that
he might see the hour of his vengeance. Nothing did
he know of ng Bond or the great strength of
defense that more Goth had so swiftly prepared. But even
(07:54):
had he known it, had he known it would not
have deterred him, for he was fake consumed by the
flame of his wrath. Thus it was that he drew
far ahead of the van of his host, and seeing this,
the servants of Morgoth turned to bay, and they're issued
from Angband Balrogs to aid them. There Upon the confines
of Door Dideloth, the land of Morgoth, fan Or was
(08:15):
surrounded with few friends about him. Long he fought on
and Noune dismayed, though he was wrapped in fire and
wounded with many wounds. But at the last he was
smitten to the ground by Goth Mog, lord of Balrogs,
whom Ecthelion after slew and Gondolin. There he would have
perished had not his sons in that moment come up
with force to his aid, and the Balrogs left him
(08:36):
and departed to Aungbond so fan Or just I mean,
he's not waiting for anybody. He's like going there. He's
not being strategic about this at all. He's just like,
I want more Goth, right. I mean, as I'm reading this,
I just got to think to myself, like, dude, you're
trying to do battle with like the most powerful created being, right,
(08:59):
I mean, I get that you're, you know, fiery spirit
and everything, but really you think you think you're gonna
be able to pull this off just by yourself, Like
that's just crazy, it's crazy. And uh, you know, he
he doesn't even get to more Goth as a result,
he has to do battle with Gothmog and gets defeated
(09:19):
by Gothmog, the lord of the bow rogs. So you
kind of think of, you know, the bow rog we
all know from Fellowship of the Ring, and this is
like the chief of all those ball rocks, right, this
is even I would dare say, even better than that
bow rog right who even Gandolf had, you know, had
trouble handling. So yeah, and ye off some my r
(09:41):
my r right as is right, the balls are.
Speaker 2 (09:43):
My r as well, that's right, that's right. Yeah, No,
it's pretty Uh man's got.
Speaker 1 (09:50):
Some guts, well, is fool hardy foolhardy?
Speaker 2 (09:55):
Yeah. I mean in a way you gotta admire him, right,
But the other way you're like, that was stupid. You
should have waited for at least some backup. Yeah, I mean,
I don't know, I think maybe at least with backup,
with with with some aid he probably could have at
least gotten to more. He wouldn't have been defeated by
(10:18):
the bower Rocks. But you know, it also seems, I mean,
he was being true to his own self, right, like
this is this is how fan Or rolls. You don't
wait for no one, That's right.
Speaker 1 (10:27):
Yeah, definitely not so. Although it says fan Or survived,
not so much. Moving on to the next paragraph, it's like,
it's like, you know, where does it say there he
would have perished had not his sons at that moment
come up with force to his aid. All You're like, oh, okay,
so you live, and it's like, next paragraph and it's like, nope,
(10:50):
he dies, he dies. You're gonna read this paragraph credit.
Speaker 2 (10:53):
Then his sons raced up their father and bore him
back towards Mithrom. But as they drew near to I
thought Syrian, and whereupon the upward path to the pass
over the mountains, fan Or bade them halt, for his
wounds were mortal, and he knew that his hour was come.
And looking out from the slopes of edrid Wethhrin with
his last sight, he beheld far off the peaks of Thangardrum,
(11:15):
mightiest of the towers of Middle Earth, and knew, with
the foreknowledge of death, that no power of the Noldor
would ever overwhelm them. But he cursed the name of
Morgoth thrice and laid it upon his sons to hold
to their oath and to avenge their father. Then he died,
but he had neither burial nor tomb, for so fiery
was his spirit that as it sped, that as it sped,
(11:39):
his body fell to ash and was borne away like smoke.
And his likeness has never again appeared in Arda. Neither
has his spirit left the halls of Mondos. Thus unded
the mightiest of the Noldor, of whose deeds came both
their greatest renown and their most grievous woe.
Speaker 1 (11:58):
Yeah, so his dead, I mean, he's literally, you know,
the fiery spirit, so fiery that his body just is
consumed by his spirit leaving his body and doesn't even
survive the process. For you know, it's the slow decay
that we might expect. So that is the end of
fan Or. I mean, you know, Greta, I you know,
(12:19):
I read this and I'm just kind of like, it's
kind of surprising to me when I think about this story,
and that fan Or is is such an important figure,
and that Tolkien kills him off fairly early, right and
the and the grand scheme of things.
Speaker 2 (12:36):
Yeah, I agree, I agree.
Speaker 1 (12:40):
I I didn't really dwell on that, you know, the
the last time we we discussed the film Reli and
we did our you know, when we originally did it
on the you know, the original set of episodes of
this podcast. But it really is kind of surprising. I mean,
he he You'd think that this character is a you know,
it's a pretty pretty strong, powerful character, and Tolkien just
(13:03):
you know, kills him off pretty much midway through, you know.
So I I just I personally find that surprising when
I really think about it, that he doesn't, you know,
that he doesn't carry you know, Carrie fan Or longer
into the story. You know, it makes me wonder what
might fan Or have become if you know, he had
been like really seriously wounded here but somehow survived and
(13:25):
had to like go recuperate for a while. Would he
have just been like what it had just been like
right back at Morgoth, you know, as soon as he
was ready to go, like or would he have you know,
would he have like melowed out to some degree and
maybe been a little more strategic about his plan and
been almost one of the the operators. And you know,
these these operators that we're gonna learn about in Bealerian,
(13:46):
you know, these different kind of parties of people's that
are you know, one of these leaders, you know of
people that are like kind of trying to play power games,
you know, within Balarion. I don't know, it's an interesting
it's an interesting thought to me, but any thoughts from you, Yeah.
Speaker 2 (14:03):
You know, I was. I agree it is surprising that
he's gone so early in this soulmarillion. But I feel
like I feel like he just the like he himself,
like the character that we know of Fane or he
has control, like a lot of control over his destiny
and over his mortality. And I kind of feel like
(14:25):
maybe he wanted to die, Like I feel like maybe
he couldn't deal with the humiliation of having been defeated
by the bell rog of not gotten what he wanted,
and so maybe and I'm not saying he committed suicide,
but I feel like maybe it was like his will
to pass on that that, you know, because I feel
(14:48):
like if he didn't want to die, I don't think
he would have, like just knowing what I know of
Fayan or Yeah, so I just kind of feel like
it was what he felt like he deserved or wanted
or something.
Speaker 1 (15:00):
Yeah. Interesting, He's he is a very interesting character. You know,
I think psychologically, Uh, you think about the fact that
he's got this you know, kind of shadow over him
of being indirectly responsible for the death of his mother, right,
(15:22):
and you know that and in terms of you know
that he kind of consumed her right and and uh
and in the birth birthing process and he had to
grow up with that. And then his father, you know,
was everything to him. And then his father he marries
and it's like it's no longer just him and dad.
It's you know, it's he's got to deal with these
other clowns and their mom is not actually his mom.
(15:45):
And and then you know, he creates these things and
everybody these beautiful objects, and everybody wants a piece of them,
and uh, and he just, you know, he just doesn't
think he can trust anybody. And yeah, I mean maybe
there's maybe there's something to that that just leads to
this sort of personality that's like I will have my
(16:06):
way or I will have death, right, you know, it's
it's one or the other.
Speaker 2 (16:12):
I mean he knew what he was doing, right, I
mean he had to know his chances were not good.
Speaker 1 (16:17):
Yeah, yeah, you'd think so, because he's not dumb.
Speaker 2 (16:20):
No, he's not. So it just it seems to me
like maybe he was just done and he kind of
wanted to go out in a dare I say, blaze.
Speaker 1 (16:30):
Blaze of glory.
Speaker 2 (16:33):
I mean that's literally what he did. He went out
in a blaze of glory, but not so much glory.
I guess a blaze of defeat.
Speaker 1 (16:40):
We could bend the moment we were head lovely, I
don't know, go for a pillow and the youth was
last night. It's bit. That's the best we can do
on the podcast now, because.
Speaker 2 (16:54):
I don't think they'll say you may have done too much.
Speaker 1 (16:56):
Well, I don't think they'll flag us because that's not
actually recording. It's just me singing the song. The snippet
from the song Yeah great Little John bon Jovie song
from the Young Guns to soundtrack back in the I
think early nineties anyway. All right, so uh yeah, so
(17:18):
fan or gone toast.
Speaker 2 (17:21):
And he went out on his own terms. Yeah, you
gotta admire that.
Speaker 1 (17:25):
So kind of jumping ahead a little bit more Goth,
so fan or seven sons do survive, and so it's
up to them now to fulfill the oath, right and
and to kind of, you know, honor their father's dying wishes.
And they they get roped into this whole thing where
(17:47):
more Goth is like, hey, oh gosh, you guys got me.
You know, I'll give you a silmarle, right, just come
and treat of peace. I just don't I just don't
want any more trouble. And and they're like, oh, we
know what you're up to. We're gonna come with our
own army. You know. They they're not stupid, but they're
a little stupid because they don't come with a bigger army.
And Medros, the oldest of fan Or's sons, ends up
(18:07):
getting captured, and man, this this is just horrible. But
he gets hung from the face of thang order by
one arm right. Just that's that's not fun. Yeah, So
he's just up there and for a while, we're not
really not really sure exactly how long, but he is
up there for a good long while. And then after
(18:31):
that we find out that Fingolfin's company arrives right. Yes,
they did the icy journey, they did, and I'm sure
it made them tougher, right and uh so as they
come over, unlike when fan Or came over and they
kind of the Orcs went to check it out, right,
(18:54):
nobody really bothers fing golf And so you know they're coming, Greta.
If you look at the map, this map here, you
know they're coming from up here in the upper left
hand corner in this region Lamath right into Hitlam and
they're journeying. They're journeying down into this area. And this
is where Agbond is way up here in the center
of the map, right here, center top center of the map,
(19:17):
right there. And you know when fan Or came down,
the Orcs came over to investigate, and that's how that
for that second battle. So that's known the fan Or
Battle is known of the second Battle of Balarryon. And
but with Finn Golfing and company coming over, you know,
nobody h nobody's showing there. So I'm gonna can I
(19:39):
I don't know if I can, uh shure, I'm not
gonna worry about sharing it. But anyway, look at that
map in your book of your book, copy of the
Summer Million. Yeah, and you'll you'll be able to see
what I'm talking about. So when fin Golfing and company
come over, the sun has risen, so they're not so more.
God is like, no, thank you, I'm not gonna even
bother with these people because I'm scared of this bright
(20:00):
object in the sky and so he So Fingolfing and
Company basically arrive and they don't have to deal with
more goth so that's nice for them. And they smote
upon the gates of Angban, and the challenge of their
trumpets shook the towers of than Goridrum, and Medros heard
them amid his torment and cried aloud, but his voice
(20:22):
was lost in the echoes of stone. So so they
move on, and we find out a little later that
that they this fingolf and company do learn about Medro's fate,
and Fingolf or Fingon, the son of Fingolfin, decides to
go help him. So why don't we read about this, Greta.
I will read this first paragraph and then you can
(20:43):
read the next two sound then Fingon, the valiant son
of Fingolfin, resolved to heal the few that divided then
old door, before their enemy should be ready for war,
for the earth trembled in the northlands with a thunder
of the forges of more Goth. Underground, long before in
the bliss of vallenor before Melkor was unchained or lies
came between them. Fingon had been close in friendship with Methros,
(21:04):
and though he knew not yet that Medros had not
forgotten him at the burning of the ships, the thought
of their ancient friendship stung his heart. Therefore he dared
a deed which is justly renowned among the feats of
the Prince of the Princes of the Noldor Alone and
without the council of any he set forth in search
of Methros, and, aided by the very darkness that more
Goth had made, he came unseen into the fastness of
his foes. High upon the shoulders of Thegoridrym, he climbed
(21:28):
and looked in despair upon the desolation of the land.
But no passenger or crevice could be fined through which
he might come within more God's stronghold. Then, in defiance
of the Orcs, who cowered still in the dark vaults
beneath the earth. He took his harp and sang a
song of vaalanor that the noldor made of old before
strife was born among the sons of Fenway. And his
voice rang in the mournful hollows that never before had
(21:50):
never heard before, aught to save cries of fear and woe.
Speaker 2 (21:54):
Thus Fingon found what he sought for. Suddenly, above him,
far and faint, his song was taken up in a
voice answer, and called to him Methros. It was that
sang amid his torment. But Finingon climbed to the foot
of the precipice where his kinsmen hung, and then could
go no further, and he wept when he saw the
cruel device of Morgoth. Methros, therefore, being in anguish without hope,
(22:18):
begged Finn to shoot him with his bow. And Fingon
strung an arrow and bent his bow, And, seeing no
better hope, he cried to Manwey, saying, O, King, to
whom all birds are dear, speed now this feathered shaft,
and recall some pity for the noldor in their need.
His prayer was answered swiftly from Manwey, to whom all
(22:39):
birds are dear, and to whom they bring news. Upon
Tan acquittal from Middle Earth had sent forth the race
of eagles, commanding them to dwell in the crags of
the North and to keep watch upon Morgoth, for Manway
still had pity for the exiled elves, and the eagles
brought news of much that passed in those days to
the sad ears of mind. Now, even as Fingn bent
(23:02):
his bow, there flew down from the high airs Thorandor,
king of eagles, mightiest of all birds that have ever been,
whose outstretched wings spanned thirty fathoms, and staying Fingon's hand,
he took him up and bore him to the face
of the rock where Mythros hung. But Fingn could not
(23:24):
release the hell rock bond upon his wrist, nor sever it,
nor draw it from the stone again. Therefore, in his pain,
Mathros begged that he said he would slay him, but
Fingn cut off his hand above the wrist, and Thorndor
bore them back to Mithrim.
Speaker 1 (23:43):
Yeah, so Fingn does this very heroic thing, and his
goal really you know, first of all, he you know,
he has a true friendship with Methros that he remembers,
and you know, and the other thought is that he
wants to heal He feels like he needs to do
something to heal the rift between then Old Or because
it you know, they need to be united and they're
(24:06):
in their determination to take on more goth Right, so
he does this, you know, very heroic deed and calls
upon the aid of Manway and and ultimately rescues Methros,
though at the price of Medathro's hand, right, and this
won't be the only time that a major character in
(24:28):
some really loses a hand. So so anyway, and the
in kind of the achieving achieving a great deed, although
in this case it's sort of Metherros didn't really achieve
a great deed. He just got caught, you know and
hung from the rock. It was Fingon's great deed in
this case. So we you know, this very heroic deed
(24:53):
is going to help heal that, yeh, heal that, and
and Metherros actually is going to do some thing very
generous himself as a result of this.
Speaker 2 (25:04):
It's also it's an event that also probably served to
help heal the rift between the Valor and then Old
War right, well how so well, I mean, without Manway
sending the Eagles, they he wouldn't have to. I mean,
(25:25):
he was ready to shoot him, put him out of
his misery. And it was his prayer to Manway. It's
interesting that he he he still said a prayer to
Manway even you know, show that he still had faith,
right like, there was still hope for them to be reconciled. So,
(25:47):
I mean, I think it was a good It was
a good move on the part of the Valor to
show the Noldar that they you know, they still care.
I mean, because it was it would be imposs without
the Eagels.
Speaker 1 (26:01):
Right right, Well, what I mean it was very merciful
considering you know, the attitude of the Noldor as they left, right,
I mean, they basically just like you know, f you
guys right, see you later. So, yes, but this will
this is going to bear important fruit as well, as
we see just in the next paragraph here where it
(26:23):
reads for Methros begged forgiveness for the desertion in Ottoman,
and he waves his claim to kingship over all the Noldor,
saying to Fingolfin, if there laying no grievance between us, Lord,
still the Kingship would rightly come to you. The oldest
here of the house of Fenway, and not the least wise.
But to this his brothers did not all in their
hearts agree. So Methros is very grateful and basically says
(26:44):
to fl because of Fingan's deed, he says to fing Golfin,
Fingan's father, I want you to be the high king
instead of me, right So Medros, you know, you would
think rightfully should have been the high king because he's
the son of fan Or, who was the first son
of Fenway, the eldest son of Fenway, who was the
(27:05):
original high King of the nold Or. So it would
seem that would pass down that way. But Meadros yields
the throne to fingolf and so now Finolfin is the
high King of the nold Or. Of course, not all
of the sons of fan Or like that, so but
it is what it is. So that's who it is,
(27:25):
that's who it be. Got to deal with it just well,
then not all of them deal with it so well.
Well true, speaking of kings, let's check in with King Fingle,
how does he feel about the no old Or being.
Speaker 2 (27:41):
I feel like that was a very like pert happily
kind of thing, and speaking of king.
Speaker 1 (27:47):
Yes, and now is the time on this podcast when
we speak of kings, the time known as the speaking
of king's time on this podcast, which is ours. All right,
how does Thingle feel about all of this an old
door being here? Uh no, no, thank you had sorry
(28:09):
for those of you listening. You had to be watching
to get the full effective that. It's pretty epic, all right.
So yeah, so Thingle is not pleased that then oldor
have come here. And this presents some more controversy. So
I'll read the first paragraph here, Greta, and then you
can read the second. Now, King Fingle welcomed not with
(28:31):
a full heart the coming of so many princes in
might out of the west, eager for new realms. And
he would not open his kingdom nor remove its girdle
of enchantment, for wise, with the wisdom of Melion, he
trusted not the restraint of mor Goth would endure alone.
Of the princes of then Old or those of Finnarfin's house,
were suffered to pass within the confines of Doriath, for
they could claim close kinship with King Fingal himself, since
(28:51):
their mother was Aarwind of al kualande olways daughter.
Speaker 2 (28:56):
On Grod, son of Penarfin, was the first of the
exs to come to Menigroth as a messenger of his
brother Finrod, and he spoke along with the king, telling
him of the deeds of the Noldur in the north,
and of their numbers, and of the ordering of their force.
But being true and wise hearted, and thinking all griefs
now forgiven, he spoke no word concerning the king's slaying,
(29:17):
nor of the manner of the exile the Noldor and
the oath of Pheenor King Thingle. Hearkened to the words
of Angrid Angrod. Angrod, Yes, and ere he went. He
said to him, thus, shall you speak for me to
those that sent you in Hythlam the Noldor have leave
to dwell, and in the highlands of Dorthonian, and in
(29:39):
the lands east of Dorioth that are empty and wild.
But elsewhere there are many of my people, and I
would not have them restrained of their freedom, still less
ousted from their homes. Beware, therefore, how you princes of
the west, bear yourselves, For I am the Lord of
bellariond And all who seek to dwell there shall hear
my word, and too do none shall come to abide,
(30:02):
but only such as I call his guests, or who
seek me in great need.
Speaker 1 (30:08):
Yeah, so so on Grad, son of Aenarphin. So you know,
as it says here, the children of Fennarfin are part
Tilarry also, which means that they are akin to Thingle
right being being the original king of the or co
(30:30):
king if you will, of the Tillary right, who of
course stays behind the rest of the Tilary go but
the Cindar stay behind, and he becomes the king of
the Cindar. So so you know, Thingles a little warmer
towards towards Ingrad, being a son of Phenarphin, then he
might be towards others. But I important detail is that
(30:50):
he never mentions Onrod, never mentions the kin sling right,
which of course probably would have made Thingle very mad.
So because it's like, those were my people and your
people and you all killed them, right, or you will
attack them.
Speaker 2 (31:06):
So do you think that's deceitful on his part? Because
I feel like it gives him an excuse. Right, He's like, well,
I thought all grease for now forgiven. You know, the
bygones be bygones, and it's not gonna help his case
with Thingle for sure. So I don't know.
Speaker 1 (31:22):
Yeah, I feel like that's something that was incumbent upon
well all right, so I don't know that that was
on Grod's job necessarily. Yeah, I do think I expect
that he discussed it with Finnrod beforehand, because Finrod was
the one who sent him, right, Finrod being I think
(31:44):
I believe the eldest child of Fennarfin so the of
that line the we double check that, but of that line,
the oldest child or the patriarch perhap apps let's see
here fennarfin so far? Yeah, dude to do Oh gosh,
(32:09):
I hate the advertisements on this website, all right, So yes,
Fenrod was the oldest, and then on Grod and then
Ignore and then Glaudrail. So I really think it probably
it's you know, it really was probably thin Golfin who
should have made this call, right, because fin Golfin was
(32:30):
the one who led them all, or at least led
the majority host and now he's the high king of
an old or right, So to me, it's something that
thin Golfin should have gone to, should have gone to
Thingle to say, right, So, yes, did it need to
be addressed absolutely. Who was the right one to address it? Well,
(32:51):
probably not on Grod as the like you know guy
under who's going on behalf of Fenrod and then Fenrod
is actually subject to and golfing, right, probably not the
right way to handle it, you know, with such horrible news.
So that's my that's my take on it.
Speaker 2 (33:09):
Yeah, that's good, Yeah, I agree.
Speaker 1 (33:12):
All right, cool settled, boom, Now they know all right,
this leads to there's a counsel of the noldor now
where they discuss this word from Thingle and Methros and
company basically laugh at this.
Speaker 2 (33:29):
Right, Oh wait, can we go back super quick?
Speaker 1 (33:31):
Sure?
Speaker 2 (33:31):
As you're moving on, I feel like I don't like
Thingle very much. I feel like this is maybe the
first kind of I used to like him, but now
I'm kind of like, hmmm, this is like the first
little inkling I have of maybe maybe he's not such
(33:51):
a good guy after all, right, I mean, he just
seems like this does not this is not a warm well.
I was saying, he needs to like welcome the with
open arms, and I feel like he's like genuinely fair maybe,
but I think like I understand him not wanting to like,
(34:12):
you know, they were there first, and there's people, and
he wants to look out for them first. And I
get that, but this whole I am the Lord of Bealarion,
like that seems like a high claim. I mean, I
guess it's true, but I don't know. It just rubs
me the wrong way.
Speaker 1 (34:31):
Well, I mean, I can understand where you're coming from.
It is I would say, before they arrived, it was
certainly true that he was the Lord of Bellerions, right,
And you know, you can kind of understand that he's
like he's trying to watch out for his people that
are there, right, He's trying to make sure that they
don't get they aren't dispossessed of their own lands, right,
and that because that's his job, right, That's the job
(34:52):
of a good of a good king. Sure, So on
one hand, I can understand it, and he needs to
be you know, he need to be a little stern.
You know, I'm kind of surprised he doesn't spend more
time asking about like why did you all come back, right, like,
and why did you come through such a perilous road,
you know, and just keep asking more and more questions
(35:15):
about like what in the world brings you all back,
So yeah, I mean, maybe he could have been a
little more welcoming or sound come off a little more welcoming.
But but he also I think probably realizes that, you know,
whatever it is it brought them back, it doesn't seem
like it was a particularly good thing. So he's probably trying.
Speaker 2 (35:36):
To lay down the lawn a little bit, right.
Speaker 1 (35:38):
I mean, sometimes there's a time to be a little bit.
Sometimes there's a time to be a complete jerk, you know,
like you need to kind of uh, you know, give
off a strong appearance, right, otherwise you're you're gonna be
taken advantage of. Right. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (35:54):
No, he's establishing boundaries, and I think that's a good thing.
But I guess there was just something about it that
just kind of made me go, yeah, I don't like
that very much.
Speaker 1 (36:05):
Well, I mean, I think I think Thingle is certainly
a character that's going to you know, uh, he does
go down a road of pride, I would say, right,
and we see that We're going to see that more
starkly in some later stories. But I guess I can
understand why he has the attitude here that he does, right,
(36:27):
And I think it's the right call, considering what the
response of the Noldor here is to it? Right, you know?
So Uh, let's let's move on to that. What is
the response to well, Methos laughs laugh. A king is
he that can hold his own or else his title
is vain thingle does but Grantis lands where his power
does not run. Indeed, Dorioth alone would be his realm
(36:49):
this day but for the coming of the Noldor. Therefore
and Dorioth, let him reign and be glad that he
has the sons of Fenway for his neighbors, not the
Orcs of Morgoth that we found. Elsewhere it shall go
as seems good, we shall elsewhere it shall go it
seems good to us. And then Uh karen Ther, who's
one of other another son of fan Or and is
(37:09):
like the biggest of all the jerks. Uh basically says,
Uh doesn't doesn't like the sons of phen Arphin and
and was very harsh. And he says, yay more, let
not the sons of Phenarfhin run hither and thither with
their tails to this dark Elf and his caves who
made them our spokesman to deal with. And though they
and though they become indeed to balarry on. Let them
not so swiftly forget that their father is a lord
(37:31):
of the noldor though their mother be of other kins.
So he's like, don't you phenophene people even think about,
you know, trying to buddy up with old thingle over
there just because you you know, you have a relation, right,
just because you know your mom was of his kin.
So you know, just as we're thinking like, oh, they're
(37:52):
gonna have like, you know, this counsel and like bring together,
it's like more division right sown amongst the uh noldor here.
And we do learn a little bit about current theer
and his dealings with the dwarves and the creation of
the uh Where is it now?
Speaker 2 (38:11):
First we learn of they build a really big thing.
Speaker 1 (38:17):
Well, yes, yes, yeah, I'm kind of you know again,
we're not I'm not trying to cover every detail of
this chapter if you want to, if there was something
that you wanted to mention the yeah, anyway, I thought
I had it marked, but I don't anyway, But there's
not a whole lot of detail about dwarves right now.
We're learning a little bit about their existence, and of
(38:39):
course we learned about that in a previous chapter as well,
and we'll get more from the dwarves and later chapter.
They'll become more significant players in the story in later chapters.
All right, So we jump ahead twenty years and and
then Fingolfin calls, you know, a great feast for then
Odor and it really is a you know, a time
(38:59):
of a time of healing. It says it was long
remembered in later days of sorrow, time of joy and
for a healing of past grievances and wounds. Although unfortunately,
you know, there's actually elves other than older that come
to this feast as well, and the green elves of Assyrian,
(39:21):
the gray elves and the folk of the havens, and
from Doriath only Moblong and Darn come right, just two messengers.
So Thingle does not come to the feast. So we
can see that Thingle is setting himself up over here,
which I would say, that's kind of a jerk move, right,
you know, everybody else is coming to the feat. Why
don't you go to the feast? Right? So I can
(39:43):
see that more so is like a okay, that's questionable
to me, Like why he wouldn't have gone when all
the other elves from valerianndergoing.
Speaker 2 (39:52):
So, yeah, I agree, but I already thought was a jerk,
So that just confirms it.
Speaker 1 (39:57):
Yes, confirmed, thingle equals confirmed. All right. Next we have
the dreams of Torgon and Finrod. So essentially Olmo Olmo
inspires the creation of two great kingdoms through these two elves.
(40:18):
Let's read it. Let's read a little bit about what
happens here. Greta, why don't you read this paragraph?
Speaker 2 (40:24):
And when again thirty years had passed, Turgon, son of Finngolfin,
left Nevrast where he dwelt, and sought out Finrod, his friend,
upon the island of tolls Syrion. And they journeyed southward
along the river, being wary for a while of the
northern mountains. And as they journeyed, night came upon them
beyond the mares of twilight, beside the waters of Syrion,
(40:45):
and they slept upon his banks, beneath the summer stars.
But Olmo, coming up the river, laid a deep sleep
upon them, and heavy dreams, And the trouble of the
dreams remained after they awoke. But neither said aught to
the other, for their memory was not clear. And each
believe that Olmo had sent a message to him alone.
But unquiet was upon them ever after, and doubt of
(41:07):
what should befall. And they wandered off and alone in
untrodden land, seeking far and wide for places of hidden strength.
For it seemed to each that he was bidden to
prepare for a day of evil, and to establish a retreat,
lest more goths should burst from enband and overthrow the
armies of the North.
Speaker 1 (41:27):
Yeah, so, so we have Torgon and Torgon and Finnrod.
Hold on, I'm gonna turn off this ac here. There
we go. So we have Turgon and Finrod. They kind
(41:48):
of their buddies. They go on this journey together and
while they're both sleeping, Olmo inspires in them dreams that
are kind of troubling, and it beats them separately to
think that they need to establish their own realms. So
just give you the spoiler on this. Torgon will be
the one who eventually creates Gondolin, and as we find
out right here, Finnrod is the one who creates nargathrond Right,
(42:11):
Gondolin will come later. We learned a little bit more
about Nargathron and the creation of Nargathron. Right here uh so,
and that that happens just in the paragraphs that follow
right here. Galadriel could have gone to live with Finnrod
and Nargathrond, but she chose to stay in dori Off
(42:31):
with Keliborne, who she has apparently met now and will
eventually marry, if she's not already married to him. And
and it says Torgon remembered the city set upon a hill, Tyrion,
the fair with its tower and tree. So he's thinking
back to Tyrian, a pontuna in the blessed realm. And
(42:52):
he found not what he saw, but returned to Nevrost
and sat in peace and vin Yamar by the shores
of the sea. And in the next year Almo himself
appeared to him and bade him go forth again alone
into the veil of Syrion. And Torgon went forth, and
by the guidance of Ulmo, he discovered the hidden veil
of tum Laden in the encircling mountains, in the midst
of which there was a hill of stone. Of this
(43:13):
he spoke to none as yet, but returned once more
to Nevrost, and there began in his secret councils to
devise the plan of a city after the manner of
Tyriana Pontuna, for which his heart yearned an exile. So yes,
we'll learn much more about Gondolin in later chapters, but
that is the origin of it. Olmo, in the inspiration
(43:35):
of his dreams, leads to these two elves to think
about the future, right, and creating strongholds for their people
in the event that Morgoth attacks again.
Speaker 2 (43:45):
So yeah, they're meant to be, like you said, fortresses, right,
like a defensive place to protect the elves from from
That's right.
Speaker 1 (43:58):
Yeah, that's right.
Speaker 2 (43:59):
So I think it's interesting they refer to them as retreats. Yeah,
I mean like a retreat, like as you retreat from
battle and retreat into a safe place in the midst
of a battle. But a retreat too can be a
place of healing and you know rest.
Speaker 1 (44:17):
Yeah, yeah, for sure serves many purposes. So and then
shortly shortly hereafter, we learned that more Goth indeed does
attack again. Right, so uh, this is going to be
the third Battle of Blarion, and it is later known
as the Glorious Battle dagor aglorob Aglaib. Basically, More Goth
(44:43):
attacks like kind of a two pronged attack. One one
attack down the western side through the Veil of Syrion
or through the pass of Syrion on the west side
of Dorthonian, and then another huge army down the right
side and attempts to just kind of flood southern Balarion
with all of the you know, with orcs and armies
(45:06):
of all kinds of horrible things. But fortunately the vigilance
of the elves was still fairly high, and so they're
able to defeat these armies and and to send them
back all the way to Ugbond. But unfortunately they're not
able to actually assail ng Bond itself. So you know,
(45:27):
they're not able to get at more Goth, you know,
kind of push back and get it more Goth himself.
They're not they're not that strong. They're strong enough to
be back the armies that are attacking them, but not
strong enough to to break into ug Bond. But this
does set the what's called the Siege of ung Bond,
which lasted four hundred years. Right where basically they go
(45:50):
and they create this, you know, just big encampment of
armies on the on Artgallan right, which is the plane
the plain just south of Angband. Right, so it's meant
to keep more goth from having any ability to directly
assault directly assault bilariand so yeah, any thoughts on that, Greta,
(46:17):
All right, cool, all right, let's see. Yeah. And then
finally we learn about we learn about Glowrung. Glowrung, so
he is the first dragon we learn about. Why don't
you read a little bit about Glaurrung here, Gretta.
Speaker 2 (46:34):
Again, After one hundred years a glow Rung, the first
of the Erlokai, the fire drakes of the North, issued
from Angband's gates by night. He was yet young and scarce,
half grown. For long and slow is the life of
the dragons. But the elves fled before him to arid
Rythworm and Dorthonian in dismay, and he defiled the fields
(46:59):
of our Golin. Then Fingn, Prince of Hlam, rode against
him with archers on horseback, and hemmed him round with
a ring of swift riders, and Galawrang could not endure
their darts, being not yet come to his full armory,
and he fled back to Enband, and came not forth again.
For many years. Fingn won great praise and the noldor
(47:21):
rejoiced for few foresaw the full meaning and threat of
this new thing. But Morgoth was ill pleased that Galawrang
had disclosed himself over soon.
Speaker 1 (47:31):
Yeah, so more God isn't happy that Galawrung breaks out
here before he's full grown.
Speaker 2 (47:38):
It's like a little puppy. He just wants to go outside,
just wanted to.
Speaker 1 (47:41):
Go out and play. Yeah. But unfortunately, unfortunately for more Goth,
fortunately for you know, the free people of Larion, they're
able to beat Glawrung and and send him back to Agbon,
send him back to Morgoth with his tail between his legs.
So you know, I would say, uh, you know, fing
(48:03):
On is a pretty pretty heroic dude between between this
and then you know, rescuing Methros, you know, single handedly,
no pun intended.
Speaker 2 (48:16):
Wow, impressive.
Speaker 1 (48:19):
Yeah, so pretty heroic guy. That was nice, just spontaneous. Yeah,
all right. And then after this defeat there was the
long piece of well nigh two hundred years, so so
we got you know, a good period of piece that's
going to happen as a result of this, you know, basically,
(48:41):
just to sum it all up, no door return. They
get into they they try to get into it with
more Goth and they're able to they're not able to
quite able to accomplish what they want to, but they're
able to at least establish a realm of peace in
southern bill are on for a long period of time,
and that's what you know, we uh, that's that's where
(49:04):
we're going to leave this one. Yeah. And and they're
able to flourish now and create some civilization back here,
right using all the knowledge they've gained being in Vallenor
for you know, really a long long period of time. Right,
you know, they've they've all become they're able to bring
some of that skill of civilization back here and you know,
(49:27):
share it with the already talented people of of Valerian,
the already talented elves of Valerian. So yeah, yeah, Well,
did I skip anything that you wanted to hit? Greta?
Speaker 2 (49:39):
No, No, I don't think so. I was that good?
All right? Good overview?
Speaker 1 (49:43):
Yeah? Good, good. Well let's do some haiku, all right,
Rock paper scissors, Shoot, rock paper scissors, shoot you go first,
heroic deed, he fiery folk, find haven, Almo inspires hope.
Speaker 2 (50:05):
That's good.
Speaker 1 (50:06):
Good.
Speaker 2 (50:07):
I like that?
Speaker 1 (50:09):
All right, I'm glad you liked it.
Speaker 2 (50:11):
I like that, I do. All right. Here's mine A
daring rescue to heal a feud song saves his life,
but not his hand.
Speaker 1 (50:21):
Nice. Nice, Oh, I forgot to let me. I know,
I have some iku for this chapter from some listeners.
Let me make sure I get over to those. I
forgot to gather them before for my notes.
Speaker 2 (50:34):
Slacking on the job, cars will It's fine as long
as you get her in m m here we go.
Speaker 1 (50:41):
Uh no, that's not for this chapter. Yeah, I had
to stand by. We're going to find this, all right.
Speaker 2 (51:03):
I feel like I'm not good at filling dead.
Speaker 1 (51:09):
Air space like you're trying to do right now.
Speaker 2 (51:11):
I'm trying really hard, but I can't.
Speaker 1 (51:16):
All right, here we go to say, oh, nice from
red Hawk. Okay, Chapter thirteen, fing On flies to aid
Medros from his hand taken alliance remade.
Speaker 2 (51:29):
I like it, all of our like, yeah, but we
were all clearly on the same wavelength Like that was
the That was the part of this chapter that I
think spoke to all of us, was that rescue of
meth Rose.
Speaker 1 (51:44):
Yeah, yeah, very cool and yes, all right, well, hey,
if we forgot your I've got your high qu or
if you want to leave it later, just leave it
in the comments below. All right, well, I think that
is everything for this episode. Uh hey, don't forget to subscribe,
rate and review us on iTunes or the platform of
(52:06):
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Speaker 2 (53:00):
Bye bye,
Hey there, fellow travelers. Our twenty twenty five Silm Million
journey continues with chapter thirteen of Quentasilmarillion of the Return
of the Noldor. The action really picks back up in
chapter thirteen, a face off between fan Or and ball rogs,
the capture and torment of Methros, a confrontation with Thingle,
and to top it all, Melkor introduces a dragon into
the mix. Over the next several months, will continue revisiting
(00:22):
the entire thirty episode Selm Million series that Greta and
I recorded back in twenty twenty two. While you're listening,
check out Silmguide dot com. That's silmguide dot com for
guides to individual chapters. You can find that link in
the show notes. To support our work here, please visit
Patreon dot com slash Tolkien Road Enjoy. Hey there, fellow travelers.
(00:43):
Welcome to The Tolkien Road, episode two ninety two. Greta,
you're ready to get back into the action.
Speaker 2 (00:48):
I'm ready.
Speaker 1 (00:50):
I'm ready, yours, Gretty as we decided as were?
Speaker 2 (00:55):
Hey, you decided? Yeah. I wish I could say I'm
rested and ready, but I'm actually only ruddy. It's fine, Yeah,
it's just a busy You know.
Speaker 1 (01:05):
We both sound bad. We both have.
Speaker 2 (01:08):
I didn't even notice it with you, but while you
were yelling. Yeah, I've not been yelling. I just have.
I don't know. I'm a nurse, so who knows what
I have? But yeah, it don't sound great.
Speaker 1 (01:22):
To be clear, I was I was inspiring young athletes.
Oh right, that's what.
Speaker 2 (01:27):
I was doing, Inspiring young athletes. That's code for yelling
at middle school boys.
Speaker 1 (01:35):
If anybody needs it as middle school boys. Let's face it,
that is true. In this episode, we will be discussing
chapter thirteen of the Summarillion of the Return of the
Noll Door.
Speaker 2 (01:44):
Great chapter, so exciting.
Speaker 1 (01:48):
Before we get started, we'd like to give a double
up air five to our patrons put them hands up
three two one oshed special thanks to this episode of
executive producers John R. Caitlin of t with Tolkien and
Jacob Blockham.
Speaker 2 (02:04):
Thanks guys.
Speaker 1 (02:05):
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(02:28):
So before we dive in, sorry, we're a little late
on this episode. Just been a busy you know, we're
busy right now. Just a lot going on, and we
of course didn't get to the live stream in April.
You know, we're gonna make up for that with an
extra awesome live stream next time we do a live stream,
which hopefully will be this month. And then we you know,
our oldest child graduated from high school this past weekend,
(02:52):
so you know, in the weekend. It's around the weekends
when we normally are doing our recording thing, and like
I was saying, doing a lot of inspiring young athletes
at this time as well. So anyway, I've just got
a lot going on. So yeah, yeah, so that's why
we are late. But here we go. Let's do this
without further ado, shall we.
Speaker 2 (03:14):
Let's do it?
Speaker 1 (03:15):
Okay, yeah, all right. Quote of the Week from Silmarillion,
chapter thirteen. His prayer was answered swiftly from Manwey to
whom all birds are deer, and to whom they bring news.
Upon Tanequittal from Middle Earth had sent forth the race
of eagles, commanding them to dwell in the crags of
the North and to keep watch upon mor Goth. For
Manwey still had pity for the exiled elves. So we
(03:39):
see a couple of times in this chapter, I just
like this one. We see a couple of times in
this chapter that the Valar have not utterly forsaken the
noldor right, and the elves of Middle Earth. They still
have a heart for them. They still, I would say,
they still even love them, right, and despite you know,
(04:01):
the banishment that they that they've imposed upon them, they
are going to help them. Some manway does it at
one point, and then Almo does it at another point,
helps them. And of course the very fact that the
sun in the moon exist and the sky are proof
of that, right, proof of the Valor, you know, to
some degree. Of course that wasn't the only reason for
creating the moon in the sun, but to some degree
(04:22):
was also to you know, to help to help those elves.
So yes, yeah, there I go, all right. So, having
arrived in bellariond Fan Or and company waste no time
in confronting more goth In chapter thirteen, we'll learn of
the fate of fan Or through unification of the Noldor thingles,
reaction to the return of the Noldor, the second and
(04:45):
third battles of Bealarion, a Dragon, the first Dragon, and
much more. Disclaimer, as with each episode, we won't be
covering every detail this chapter, but instead doing our best
to hit the high points and unpack interesting and important
det tales. And this is another long chapter. We're gonna
hit the high points and have some interesting discussion along
(05:05):
the way. Don't expect us to cover every single detail,
like we've done a pretty good job of that in
some of the shorter chapters, but this one, there's just
too much, and we're trying to get this, uh, you know,
do one episode on this particular chapter today.
Speaker 2 (05:17):
It's fair to say we'll be providing like a bird's
eye view. Maybe I like that, Yeah, clever, Thanks, You're welcome.
Speaker 1 (05:26):
All right. So we are in the year of the
Sun one as we begin this begin this chapter. Actually,
I would say it even begins a little before that,
because when fan Or and company return, it's still the
sun the sun has not yet risen, so really let's
(05:48):
you know, let's just kind of go straight to the action,
so we know, you know, just to pick up where
we left off. You know, we we we know that
the Noldor have left a'm on, They've left the blessed realm.
They traveled north, Uh, fan Oors and fan Ors smaller
company of than old Or were in the lead, and
uh and then Finolfin and the larger company than old
(06:11):
Or were kind of bringing up the rear, and fan
Or like a big jerk, took the ships that they
had stolen from the Tillary and sailed them across and
was like see if in golf and have fun on
the other side and burn the ships, so that fin
Golfing and co. Had to go through even further north
and go through the Helkaroxe the hell of Ice, right,
(06:34):
So Fin golf And and company are coming behind, you know,
by a significant amount of time. So Uh, fan Or
and company arrive back in Middle Earth, and you know,
I mean a long journey. You know, what do you
want to do after a long you know, a long
journey like that, Grete, I mean, you know, you immediately
probably want to go and do battle with the greatest
(06:54):
villa in the world has ever known.
Speaker 2 (06:56):
Absolutely, Yeah, I mean that's r and r y, it's
for the the week.
Speaker 1 (07:04):
Yeah. Well, not all of us are the fiery spirit, right,
not all of us have the fiery spirit that fan
Or does. Fan Or just goes straight to g Bond
and uh, and he's like, where's more Goth? Where is
more Goth?
Speaker 2 (07:20):
Where are my sols? That's what he wants to know.
Speaker 1 (07:24):
All right, Well, let's read about what happens when he
goes and uh and attempts to confront more Goth. So
glad to do you want me to read this?
Speaker 2 (07:31):
Or yeah?
Speaker 1 (07:32):
You go? Okay? All right? For fan Or and his
wrath against the enemy would not halt, but pressed on
behind the remnant of the Orcs, thinking so to come
at mor Goth himself. And he laughed aloud as he
wielded his sword, rejoicing that he had dared the wrath
of the Valaur and the evils of the road, that
he might see the hour of his vengeance. Nothing did
he know of ng Bond or the great strength of
defense that more Goth had so swiftly prepared. But even
(07:54):
had he known it, had he known it would not
have deterred him, for he was fake consumed by the
flame of his wrath. Thus it was that he drew
far ahead of the van of his host, and seeing this,
the servants of Morgoth turned to bay, and they're issued
from Angband Balrogs to aid them. There Upon the confines
of Door Dideloth, the land of Morgoth, fan Or was
(08:15):
surrounded with few friends about him. Long he fought on
and Noune dismayed, though he was wrapped in fire and
wounded with many wounds. But at the last he was
smitten to the ground by Goth Mog, lord of Balrogs,
whom Ecthelion after slew and Gondolin. There he would have
perished had not his sons in that moment come up
with force to his aid, and the Balrogs left him
(08:36):
and departed to Aungbond so fan Or just I mean,
he's not waiting for anybody. He's like going there. He's
not being strategic about this at all. He's just like,
I want more Goth, right. I mean, as I'm reading this,
I just got to think to myself, like, dude, you're
trying to do battle with like the most powerful created being, right,
(08:59):
I mean, I get that you're, you know, fiery spirit
and everything, but really you think you think you're gonna
be able to pull this off just by yourself, Like
that's just crazy, it's crazy. And uh, you know, he
he doesn't even get to more Goth as a result,
he has to do battle with Gothmog and gets defeated
(09:19):
by Gothmog, the lord of the bow rogs. So you
kind of think of, you know, the bow rog we
all know from Fellowship of the Ring, and this is
like the chief of all those ball rocks, right, this
is even I would dare say, even better than that
bow rog right who even Gandolf had, you know, had
trouble handling. So yeah, and ye off some my r
(09:41):
my r right as is right, the balls are.
Speaker 2 (09:43):
My r as well, that's right, that's right. Yeah, No,
it's pretty Uh man's got.
Speaker 1 (09:50):
Some guts, well, is fool hardy foolhardy?
Speaker 2 (09:55):
Yeah. I mean in a way you gotta admire him, right,
But the other way you're like, that was stupid. You
should have waited for at least some backup. Yeah, I mean,
I don't know, I think maybe at least with backup,
with with with some aid he probably could have at
least gotten to more. He wouldn't have been defeated by
(10:18):
the bower Rocks. But you know, it also seems, I mean,
he was being true to his own self, right, like
this is this is how fan Or rolls. You don't
wait for no one, That's right.
Speaker 1 (10:27):
Yeah, definitely not so. Although it says fan Or survived,
not so much. Moving on to the next paragraph, it's like,
it's like, you know, where does it say there he
would have perished had not his sons at that moment
come up with force to his aid. All You're like, oh, okay,
so you live, and it's like, next paragraph and it's like, nope,
(10:50):
he dies, he dies. You're gonna read this paragraph credit.
Speaker 2 (10:53):
Then his sons raced up their father and bore him
back towards Mithrom. But as they drew near to I
thought Syrian, and whereupon the upward path to the pass
over the mountains, fan Or bade them halt, for his
wounds were mortal, and he knew that his hour was come.
And looking out from the slopes of edrid Wethhrin with
his last sight, he beheld far off the peaks of Thangardrum,
(11:15):
mightiest of the towers of Middle Earth, and knew, with
the foreknowledge of death, that no power of the Noldor
would ever overwhelm them. But he cursed the name of
Morgoth thrice and laid it upon his sons to hold
to their oath and to avenge their father. Then he died,
but he had neither burial nor tomb, for so fiery
was his spirit that as it sped, that as it sped,
(11:39):
his body fell to ash and was borne away like smoke.
And his likeness has never again appeared in Arda. Neither
has his spirit left the halls of Mondos. Thus unded
the mightiest of the Noldor, of whose deeds came both
their greatest renown and their most grievous woe.
Speaker 1 (11:58):
Yeah, so his dead, I mean, he's literally, you know,
the fiery spirit, so fiery that his body just is
consumed by his spirit leaving his body and doesn't even
survive the process. For you know, it's the slow decay
that we might expect. So that is the end of
fan Or. I mean, you know, Greta, I you know,
(12:19):
I read this and I'm just kind of like, it's
kind of surprising to me when I think about this story,
and that fan Or is is such an important figure,
and that Tolkien kills him off fairly early, right and
the and the grand scheme of things.
Speaker 2 (12:36):
Yeah, I agree, I agree.
Speaker 1 (12:40):
I I didn't really dwell on that, you know, the
the last time we we discussed the film Reli and
we did our you know, when we originally did it
on the you know, the original set of episodes of
this podcast. But it really is kind of surprising. I mean,
he he You'd think that this character is a you know,
it's a pretty pretty strong, powerful character, and Tolkien just
(13:03):
you know, kills him off pretty much midway through, you know.
So I I just I personally find that surprising when
I really think about it, that he doesn't, you know,
that he doesn't carry you know, Carrie fan Or longer
into the story. You know, it makes me wonder what
might fan Or have become if you know, he had
been like really seriously wounded here but somehow survived and
(13:25):
had to like go recuperate for a while. Would he
have just been like what it had just been like
right back at Morgoth, you know, as soon as he
was ready to go, like or would he have you know,
would he have like melowed out to some degree and
maybe been a little more strategic about his plan and
been almost one of the the operators. And you know,
these these operators that we're gonna learn about in Bealerian,
(13:46):
you know, these different kind of parties of people's that
are you know, one of these leaders, you know of
people that are like kind of trying to play power games,
you know, within Balarion. I don't know, it's an interesting
it's an interesting thought to me, but any thoughts from you, Yeah.
Speaker 2 (14:03):
You know, I was. I agree it is surprising that
he's gone so early in this soulmarillion. But I feel
like I feel like he just the like he himself,
like the character that we know of Fane or he
has control, like a lot of control over his destiny
and over his mortality. And I kind of feel like
(14:25):
maybe he wanted to die, Like I feel like maybe
he couldn't deal with the humiliation of having been defeated
by the bell rog of not gotten what he wanted,
and so maybe and I'm not saying he committed suicide,
but I feel like maybe it was like his will
to pass on that that, you know, because I feel
(14:48):
like if he didn't want to die, I don't think
he would have, like just knowing what I know of
Fayan or Yeah, so I just kind of feel like
it was what he felt like he deserved or wanted
or something.
Speaker 1 (15:00):
Yeah. Interesting, He's he is a very interesting character. You know,
I think psychologically, Uh, you think about the fact that
he's got this you know, kind of shadow over him
of being indirectly responsible for the death of his mother, right,
(15:22):
and you know that and in terms of you know
that he kind of consumed her right and and uh
and in the birth birthing process and he had to
grow up with that. And then his father, you know,
was everything to him. And then his father he marries
and it's like it's no longer just him and dad.
It's you know, it's he's got to deal with these
other clowns and their mom is not actually his mom.
(15:45):
And and then you know, he creates these things and
everybody these beautiful objects, and everybody wants a piece of them,
and uh, and he just, you know, he just doesn't
think he can trust anybody. And yeah, I mean maybe
there's maybe there's something to that that just leads to
this sort of personality that's like I will have my
(16:06):
way or I will have death, right, you know, it's
it's one or the other.
Speaker 2 (16:12):
I mean he knew what he was doing, right, I
mean he had to know his chances were not good.
Speaker 1 (16:17):
Yeah, yeah, you'd think so, because he's not dumb.
Speaker 2 (16:20):
No, he's not. So it just it seems to me
like maybe he was just done and he kind of
wanted to go out in a dare I say, blaze.
Speaker 1 (16:30):
Blaze of glory.
Speaker 2 (16:33):
I mean that's literally what he did. He went out
in a blaze of glory, but not so much glory.
I guess a blaze of defeat.
Speaker 1 (16:40):
We could bend the moment we were head lovely, I
don't know, go for a pillow and the youth was
last night. It's bit. That's the best we can do
on the podcast now, because.
Speaker 2 (16:54):
I don't think they'll say you may have done too much.
Speaker 1 (16:56):
Well, I don't think they'll flag us because that's not
actually recording. It's just me singing the song. The snippet
from the song Yeah great Little John bon Jovie song
from the Young Guns to soundtrack back in the I
think early nineties anyway. All right, so uh yeah, so
(17:18):
fan or gone toast.
Speaker 2 (17:21):
And he went out on his own terms. Yeah, you
gotta admire that.
Speaker 1 (17:25):
So kind of jumping ahead a little bit more Goth,
so fan or seven sons do survive, and so it's
up to them now to fulfill the oath, right and
and to kind of, you know, honor their father's dying wishes.
And they they get roped into this whole thing where
(17:47):
more Goth is like, hey, oh gosh, you guys got me.
You know, I'll give you a silmarle, right, just come
and treat of peace. I just don't I just don't
want any more trouble. And and they're like, oh, we
know what you're up to. We're gonna come with our
own army. You know. They they're not stupid, but they're
a little stupid because they don't come with a bigger army.
And Medros, the oldest of fan Or's sons, ends up
(18:07):
getting captured, and man, this this is just horrible. But
he gets hung from the face of thang order by
one arm right. Just that's that's not fun. Yeah, So
he's just up there and for a while, we're not
really not really sure exactly how long, but he is
up there for a good long while. And then after
(18:31):
that we find out that Fingolfin's company arrives right. Yes,
they did the icy journey, they did, and I'm sure
it made them tougher, right and uh so as they
come over, unlike when fan Or came over and they
kind of the Orcs went to check it out, right,
(18:54):
nobody really bothers fing golf And so you know they're coming, Greta.
If you look at the map, this map here, you
know they're coming from up here in the upper left
hand corner in this region Lamath right into Hitlam and
they're journeying. They're journeying down into this area. And this
is where Agbond is way up here in the center
of the map, right here, center top center of the map,
(19:17):
right there. And you know when fan Or came down,
the Orcs came over to investigate, and that's how that
for that second battle. So that's known the fan Or
Battle is known of the second Battle of Balarryon. And
but with Finn Golfing and company coming over, you know,
nobody h nobody's showing there. So I'm gonna can I
(19:39):
I don't know if I can, uh shure, I'm not
gonna worry about sharing it. But anyway, look at that
map in your book of your book, copy of the
Summer Million. Yeah, and you'll you'll be able to see
what I'm talking about. So when fin Golfing and company
come over, the sun has risen, so they're not so more.
God is like, no, thank you, I'm not gonna even
bother with these people because I'm scared of this bright
(20:00):
object in the sky and so he So Fingolfing and
Company basically arrive and they don't have to deal with
more goth so that's nice for them. And they smote
upon the gates of Angban, and the challenge of their
trumpets shook the towers of than Goridrum, and Medros heard
them amid his torment and cried aloud, but his voice
(20:22):
was lost in the echoes of stone. So so they
move on, and we find out a little later that
that they this fingolf and company do learn about Medro's fate,
and Fingolf or Fingon, the son of Fingolfin, decides to
go help him. So why don't we read about this, Greta.
I will read this first paragraph and then you can
(20:43):
read the next two sound then Fingon, the valiant son
of Fingolfin, resolved to heal the few that divided then
old door, before their enemy should be ready for war,
for the earth trembled in the northlands with a thunder
of the forges of more Goth. Underground, long before in
the bliss of vallenor before Melkor was unchained or lies
came between them. Fingon had been close in friendship with Methros,
(21:04):
and though he knew not yet that Medros had not
forgotten him at the burning of the ships, the thought
of their ancient friendship stung his heart. Therefore he dared
a deed which is justly renowned among the feats of
the Prince of the Princes of the Noldor Alone and
without the council of any he set forth in search
of Methros, and, aided by the very darkness that more
Goth had made, he came unseen into the fastness of
his foes. High upon the shoulders of Thegoridrym, he climbed
(21:28):
and looked in despair upon the desolation of the land.
But no passenger or crevice could be fined through which
he might come within more God's stronghold. Then, in defiance
of the Orcs, who cowered still in the dark vaults
beneath the earth. He took his harp and sang a
song of vaalanor that the noldor made of old before
strife was born among the sons of Fenway. And his
voice rang in the mournful hollows that never before had
(21:50):
never heard before, aught to save cries of fear and woe.
Speaker 2 (21:54):
Thus Fingon found what he sought for. Suddenly, above him,
far and faint, his song was taken up in a
voice answer, and called to him Methros. It was that
sang amid his torment. But Finingon climbed to the foot
of the precipice where his kinsmen hung, and then could
go no further, and he wept when he saw the
cruel device of Morgoth. Methros, therefore, being in anguish without hope,
(22:18):
begged Finn to shoot him with his bow. And Fingon
strung an arrow and bent his bow, And, seeing no
better hope, he cried to Manwey, saying, O, King, to
whom all birds are dear, speed now this feathered shaft,
and recall some pity for the noldor in their need.
His prayer was answered swiftly from Manwey, to whom all
(22:39):
birds are dear, and to whom they bring news. Upon
Tan acquittal from Middle Earth had sent forth the race
of eagles, commanding them to dwell in the crags of
the North and to keep watch upon Morgoth, for Manway
still had pity for the exiled elves, and the eagles
brought news of much that passed in those days to
the sad ears of mind. Now, even as Fingn bent
(23:02):
his bow, there flew down from the high airs Thorandor,
king of eagles, mightiest of all birds that have ever been,
whose outstretched wings spanned thirty fathoms, and staying Fingon's hand,
he took him up and bore him to the face
of the rock where Mythros hung. But Fingn could not
(23:24):
release the hell rock bond upon his wrist, nor sever it,
nor draw it from the stone again. Therefore, in his pain,
Mathros begged that he said he would slay him, but
Fingn cut off his hand above the wrist, and Thorndor
bore them back to Mithrim.
Speaker 1 (23:43):
Yeah, so Fingn does this very heroic thing, and his
goal really you know, first of all, he you know,
he has a true friendship with Methros that he remembers,
and you know, and the other thought is that he
wants to heal He feels like he needs to do
something to heal the rift between then Old Or because
it you know, they need to be united and they're
(24:06):
in their determination to take on more goth Right, so
he does this, you know, very heroic deed and calls
upon the aid of Manway and and ultimately rescues Methros,
though at the price of Medathro's hand, right, and this
won't be the only time that a major character in
(24:28):
some really loses a hand. So so anyway, and the
in kind of the achieving achieving a great deed, although
in this case it's sort of Metherros didn't really achieve
a great deed. He just got caught, you know and
hung from the rock. It was Fingon's great deed in
this case. So we you know, this very heroic deed
(24:53):
is going to help heal that, yeh, heal that, and
and Metherros actually is going to do some thing very
generous himself as a result of this.
Speaker 2 (25:04):
It's also it's an event that also probably served to
help heal the rift between the Valor and then Old
War right, well how so well, I mean, without Manway
sending the Eagles, they he wouldn't have to. I mean,
(25:25):
he was ready to shoot him, put him out of
his misery. And it was his prayer to Manway. It's
interesting that he he he still said a prayer to
Manway even you know, show that he still had faith,
right like, there was still hope for them to be reconciled. So,
(25:47):
I mean, I think it was a good It was
a good move on the part of the Valor to
show the Noldar that they you know, they still care.
I mean, because it was it would be imposs without
the Eagels.
Speaker 1 (26:01):
Right right, Well, what I mean it was very merciful
considering you know, the attitude of the Noldor as they left, right,
I mean, they basically just like you know, f you
guys right, see you later. So, yes, but this will
this is going to bear important fruit as well, as
we see just in the next paragraph here where it
(26:23):
reads for Methros begged forgiveness for the desertion in Ottoman,
and he waves his claim to kingship over all the Noldor,
saying to Fingolfin, if there laying no grievance between us, Lord,
still the Kingship would rightly come to you. The oldest
here of the house of Fenway, and not the least wise.
But to this his brothers did not all in their
hearts agree. So Methros is very grateful and basically says
(26:44):
to fl because of Fingan's deed, he says to fing Golfin,
Fingan's father, I want you to be the high king
instead of me, right So Medros, you know, you would
think rightfully should have been the high king because he's
the son of fan Or, who was the first son
of Fenway, the eldest son of Fenway, who was the
(27:05):
original high King of the nold Or. So it would
seem that would pass down that way. But Meadros yields
the throne to fingolf and so now Finolfin is the
high King of the nold Or. Of course, not all
of the sons of fan Or like that, so but
it is what it is. So that's who it is,
(27:25):
that's who it be. Got to deal with it just well,
then not all of them deal with it so well.
Well true, speaking of kings, let's check in with King Fingle,
how does he feel about the no old Or being.
Speaker 2 (27:41):
I feel like that was a very like pert happily
kind of thing, and speaking of king.
Speaker 1 (27:47):
Yes, and now is the time on this podcast when
we speak of kings, the time known as the speaking
of king's time on this podcast, which is ours. All right,
how does Thingle feel about all of this an old
door being here? Uh no, no, thank you had sorry
(28:09):
for those of you listening. You had to be watching
to get the full effective that. It's pretty epic, all right.
So yeah, so Thingle is not pleased that then oldor
have come here. And this presents some more controversy. So
I'll read the first paragraph here, Greta, and then you
can read the second. Now, King Fingle welcomed not with
(28:31):
a full heart the coming of so many princes in
might out of the west, eager for new realms. And
he would not open his kingdom nor remove its girdle
of enchantment, for wise, with the wisdom of Melion, he
trusted not the restraint of mor Goth would endure alone.
Of the princes of then Old or those of Finnarfin's house,
were suffered to pass within the confines of Doriath, for
they could claim close kinship with King Fingal himself, since
(28:51):
their mother was Aarwind of al kualande olways daughter.
Speaker 2 (28:56):
On Grod, son of Penarfin, was the first of the
exs to come to Menigroth as a messenger of his
brother Finrod, and he spoke along with the king, telling
him of the deeds of the Noldur in the north,
and of their numbers, and of the ordering of their force.
But being true and wise hearted, and thinking all griefs
now forgiven, he spoke no word concerning the king's slaying,
(29:17):
nor of the manner of the exile the Noldor and
the oath of Pheenor King Thingle. Hearkened to the words
of Angrid Angrod. Angrod, Yes, and ere he went. He
said to him, thus, shall you speak for me to
those that sent you in Hythlam the Noldor have leave
to dwell, and in the highlands of Dorthonian, and in
(29:39):
the lands east of Dorioth that are empty and wild.
But elsewhere there are many of my people, and I
would not have them restrained of their freedom, still less
ousted from their homes. Beware, therefore, how you princes of
the west, bear yourselves, For I am the Lord of
bellariond And all who seek to dwell there shall hear
my word, and too do none shall come to abide,
(30:02):
but only such as I call his guests, or who
seek me in great need.
Speaker 1 (30:08):
Yeah, so so on Grad, son of Aenarphin. So you know,
as it says here, the children of Fennarfin are part
Tilarry also, which means that they are akin to Thingle
right being being the original king of the or co
(30:30):
king if you will, of the Tillary right, who of
course stays behind the rest of the Tilary go but
the Cindar stay behind, and he becomes the king of
the Cindar. So so you know, Thingles a little warmer
towards towards Ingrad, being a son of Phenarphin, then he
might be towards others. But I important detail is that
(30:50):
he never mentions Onrod, never mentions the kin sling right,
which of course probably would have made Thingle very mad.
So because it's like, those were my people and your
people and you all killed them, right, or you will
attack them.
Speaker 2 (31:06):
So do you think that's deceitful on his part? Because
I feel like it gives him an excuse. Right, He's like, well,
I thought all grease for now forgiven. You know, the
bygones be bygones, and it's not gonna help his case
with Thingle for sure. So I don't know.
Speaker 1 (31:22):
Yeah, I feel like that's something that was incumbent upon
well all right, so I don't know that that was
on Grod's job necessarily. Yeah, I do think I expect
that he discussed it with Finnrod beforehand, because Finrod was
the one who sent him, right, Finrod being I think
(31:44):
I believe the eldest child of Fennarfin so the of
that line the we double check that, but of that line,
the oldest child or the patriarch perhap apps let's see
here fennarfin so far? Yeah, dude to do Oh gosh,
(32:09):
I hate the advertisements on this website, all right, So yes,
Fenrod was the oldest, and then on Grod and then
Ignore and then Glaudrail. So I really think it probably
it's you know, it really was probably thin Golfin who
should have made this call, right, because fin Golfin was
(32:30):
the one who led them all, or at least led
the majority host and now he's the high king of
an old or right, So to me, it's something that
thin Golfin should have gone to, should have gone to
Thingle to say, right, So, yes, did it need to
be addressed absolutely. Who was the right one to address it? Well,
(32:51):
probably not on Grod as the like you know guy
under who's going on behalf of Fenrod and then Fenrod
is actually subject to and golfing, right, probably not the
right way to handle it, you know, with such horrible news.
So that's my that's my take on it.
Speaker 2 (33:09):
Yeah, that's good, Yeah, I agree.
Speaker 1 (33:12):
All right, cool settled, boom, Now they know all right,
this leads to there's a counsel of the noldor now
where they discuss this word from Thingle and Methros and
company basically laugh at this.
Speaker 2 (33:29):
Right, Oh wait, can we go back super quick?
Speaker 1 (33:31):
Sure?
Speaker 2 (33:31):
As you're moving on, I feel like I don't like
Thingle very much. I feel like this is maybe the
first kind of I used to like him, but now
I'm kind of like, hmmm, this is like the first
little inkling I have of maybe maybe he's not such
(33:51):
a good guy after all, right, I mean, he just
seems like this does not this is not a warm well.
I was saying, he needs to like welcome the with
open arms, and I feel like he's like genuinely fair maybe,
but I think like I understand him not wanting to like,
(34:12):
you know, they were there first, and there's people, and
he wants to look out for them first. And I
get that, but this whole I am the Lord of Bealarion,
like that seems like a high claim. I mean, I
guess it's true, but I don't know. It just rubs
me the wrong way.
Speaker 1 (34:31):
Well, I mean, I can understand where you're coming from.
It is I would say, before they arrived, it was
certainly true that he was the Lord of Bellerions, right,
And you know, you can kind of understand that he's
like he's trying to watch out for his people that
are there, right, He's trying to make sure that they
don't get they aren't dispossessed of their own lands, right,
and that because that's his job, right, That's the job
(34:52):
of a good of a good king. Sure, So on
one hand, I can understand it, and he needs to
be you know, he need to be a little stern.
You know, I'm kind of surprised he doesn't spend more
time asking about like why did you all come back, right, like,
and why did you come through such a perilous road,
you know, and just keep asking more and more questions
(35:15):
about like what in the world brings you all back,
So yeah, I mean, maybe he could have been a
little more welcoming or sound come off a little more welcoming.
But but he also I think probably realizes that, you know,
whatever it is it brought them back, it doesn't seem
like it was a particularly good thing. So he's probably trying.
Speaker 2 (35:36):
To lay down the lawn a little bit, right.
Speaker 1 (35:38):
I mean, sometimes there's a time to be a little bit.
Sometimes there's a time to be a complete jerk, you know,
like you need to kind of uh, you know, give
off a strong appearance, right, otherwise you're you're gonna be
taken advantage of. Right. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (35:54):
No, he's establishing boundaries, and I think that's a good thing.
But I guess there was just something about it that
just kind of made me go, yeah, I don't like
that very much.
Speaker 1 (36:05):
Well, I mean, I think I think Thingle is certainly
a character that's going to you know, uh, he does
go down a road of pride, I would say, right,
and we see that We're going to see that more
starkly in some later stories. But I guess I can
understand why he has the attitude here that he does, right,
(36:27):
And I think it's the right call, considering what the
response of the Noldor here is to it? Right, you know?
So Uh, let's let's move on to that. What is
the response to well, Methos laughs laugh. A king is
he that can hold his own or else his title
is vain thingle does but Grantis lands where his power
does not run. Indeed, Dorioth alone would be his realm
(36:49):
this day but for the coming of the Noldor. Therefore
and Dorioth, let him reign and be glad that he
has the sons of Fenway for his neighbors, not the
Orcs of Morgoth that we found. Elsewhere it shall go
as seems good, we shall elsewhere it shall go it
seems good to us. And then Uh karen Ther, who's
one of other another son of fan Or and is
(37:09):
like the biggest of all the jerks. Uh basically says,
Uh doesn't doesn't like the sons of phen Arphin and
and was very harsh. And he says, yay more, let
not the sons of Phenarfhin run hither and thither with
their tails to this dark Elf and his caves who
made them our spokesman to deal with. And though they
and though they become indeed to balarry on. Let them
not so swiftly forget that their father is a lord
(37:31):
of the noldor though their mother be of other kins.
So he's like, don't you phenophene people even think about,
you know, trying to buddy up with old thingle over
there just because you you know, you have a relation, right,
just because you know your mom was of his kin.
So you know, just as we're thinking like, oh, they're
(37:52):
gonna have like, you know, this counsel and like bring together,
it's like more division right sown amongst the uh noldor here.
And we do learn a little bit about current theer
and his dealings with the dwarves and the creation of
the uh Where is it now?
Speaker 2 (38:11):
First we learn of they build a really big thing.
Speaker 1 (38:17):
Well, yes, yes, yeah, I'm kind of you know again,
we're not I'm not trying to cover every detail of
this chapter if you want to, if there was something
that you wanted to mention the yeah, anyway, I thought
I had it marked, but I don't anyway, But there's
not a whole lot of detail about dwarves right now.
We're learning a little bit about their existence, and of
(38:39):
course we learned about that in a previous chapter as well,
and we'll get more from the dwarves and later chapter.
They'll become more significant players in the story in later chapters.
All right, So we jump ahead twenty years and and
then Fingolfin calls, you know, a great feast for then
Odor and it really is a you know, a time
(38:59):
of a time of healing. It says it was long
remembered in later days of sorrow, time of joy and
for a healing of past grievances and wounds. Although unfortunately,
you know, there's actually elves other than older that come
to this feast as well, and the green elves of Assyrian,
(39:21):
the gray elves and the folk of the havens, and
from Doriath only Moblong and Darn come right, just two messengers.
So Thingle does not come to the feast. So we
can see that Thingle is setting himself up over here,
which I would say, that's kind of a jerk move, right,
you know, everybody else is coming to the feat. Why
don't you go to the feast? Right? So I can
(39:43):
see that more so is like a okay, that's questionable
to me, Like why he wouldn't have gone when all
the other elves from valerianndergoing.
Speaker 2 (39:52):
So, yeah, I agree, but I already thought was a jerk,
So that just confirms it.
Speaker 1 (39:57):
Yes, confirmed, thingle equals confirmed. All right. Next we have
the dreams of Torgon and Finrod. So essentially Olmo Olmo
inspires the creation of two great kingdoms through these two elves.
(40:18):
Let's read it. Let's read a little bit about what
happens here. Greta, why don't you read this paragraph?
Speaker 2 (40:24):
And when again thirty years had passed, Turgon, son of Finngolfin,
left Nevrast where he dwelt, and sought out Finrod, his friend,
upon the island of tolls Syrion. And they journeyed southward
along the river, being wary for a while of the
northern mountains. And as they journeyed, night came upon them
beyond the mares of twilight, beside the waters of Syrion,
(40:45):
and they slept upon his banks, beneath the summer stars.
But Olmo, coming up the river, laid a deep sleep
upon them, and heavy dreams, And the trouble of the
dreams remained after they awoke. But neither said aught to
the other, for their memory was not clear. And each
believe that Olmo had sent a message to him alone.
But unquiet was upon them ever after, and doubt of
(41:07):
what should befall. And they wandered off and alone in
untrodden land, seeking far and wide for places of hidden strength.
For it seemed to each that he was bidden to
prepare for a day of evil, and to establish a retreat,
lest more goths should burst from enband and overthrow the
armies of the North.
Speaker 1 (41:27):
Yeah, so, so we have Torgon and Torgon and Finnrod.
Hold on, I'm gonna turn off this ac here. There
we go. So we have Turgon and Finrod. They kind
(41:48):
of their buddies. They go on this journey together and
while they're both sleeping, Olmo inspires in them dreams that
are kind of troubling, and it beats them separately to
think that they need to establish their own realms. So
just give you the spoiler on this. Torgon will be
the one who eventually creates Gondolin, and as we find
out right here, Finnrod is the one who creates nargathrond Right,
(42:11):
Gondolin will come later. We learned a little bit more
about Nargathron and the creation of Nargathron. Right here uh so,
and that that happens just in the paragraphs that follow
right here. Galadriel could have gone to live with Finnrod
and Nargathrond, but she chose to stay in dori Off
(42:31):
with Keliborne, who she has apparently met now and will
eventually marry, if she's not already married to him. And
and it says Torgon remembered the city set upon a hill, Tyrion,
the fair with its tower and tree. So he's thinking
back to Tyrian, a pontuna in the blessed realm. And
(42:52):
he found not what he saw, but returned to Nevrost
and sat in peace and vin Yamar by the shores
of the sea. And in the next year Almo himself
appeared to him and bade him go forth again alone
into the veil of Syrion. And Torgon went forth, and
by the guidance of Ulmo, he discovered the hidden veil
of tum Laden in the encircling mountains, in the midst
of which there was a hill of stone. Of this
(43:13):
he spoke to none as yet, but returned once more
to Nevrost, and there began in his secret councils to
devise the plan of a city after the manner of
Tyriana Pontuna, for which his heart yearned an exile. So yes,
we'll learn much more about Gondolin in later chapters, but
that is the origin of it. Olmo, in the inspiration
(43:35):
of his dreams, leads to these two elves to think
about the future, right, and creating strongholds for their people
in the event that Morgoth attacks again.
Speaker 2 (43:45):
So yeah, they're meant to be, like you said, fortresses, right,
like a defensive place to protect the elves from from
That's right.
Speaker 1 (43:58):
Yeah, that's right.
Speaker 2 (43:59):
So I think it's interesting they refer to them as retreats. Yeah,
I mean like a retreat, like as you retreat from
battle and retreat into a safe place in the midst
of a battle. But a retreat too can be a
place of healing and you know rest.
Speaker 1 (44:17):
Yeah, yeah, for sure serves many purposes. So and then
shortly shortly hereafter, we learned that more Goth indeed does
attack again. Right, so uh, this is going to be
the third Battle of Blarion, and it is later known
as the Glorious Battle dagor aglorob Aglaib. Basically, More Goth
(44:43):
attacks like kind of a two pronged attack. One one
attack down the western side through the Veil of Syrion
or through the pass of Syrion on the west side
of Dorthonian, and then another huge army down the right
side and attempts to just kind of flood southern Balarion
with all of the you know, with orcs and armies
(45:06):
of all kinds of horrible things. But fortunately the vigilance
of the elves was still fairly high, and so they're
able to defeat these armies and and to send them
back all the way to Ugbond. But unfortunately they're not
able to actually assail ng Bond itself. So you know,
(45:27):
they're not able to get at more Goth, you know,
kind of push back and get it more Goth himself.
They're not they're not that strong. They're strong enough to
be back the armies that are attacking them, but not
strong enough to to break into ug Bond. But this
does set the what's called the Siege of ung Bond,
which lasted four hundred years. Right where basically they go
(45:50):
and they create this, you know, just big encampment of
armies on the on Artgallan right, which is the plane
the plain just south of Angband. Right, so it's meant
to keep more goth from having any ability to directly
assault directly assault bilariand so yeah, any thoughts on that, Greta,
(46:17):
All right, cool, all right, let's see. Yeah. And then
finally we learn about we learn about Glowrung. Glowrung, so
he is the first dragon we learn about. Why don't
you read a little bit about Glaurrung here, Gretta.
Speaker 2 (46:34):
Again, After one hundred years a glow Rung, the first
of the Erlokai, the fire drakes of the North, issued
from Angband's gates by night. He was yet young and scarce,
half grown. For long and slow is the life of
the dragons. But the elves fled before him to arid
Rythworm and Dorthonian in dismay, and he defiled the fields
(46:59):
of our Golin. Then Fingn, Prince of Hlam, rode against
him with archers on horseback, and hemmed him round with
a ring of swift riders, and Galawrang could not endure
their darts, being not yet come to his full armory,
and he fled back to Enband, and came not forth again.
For many years. Fingn won great praise and the noldor
(47:21):
rejoiced for few foresaw the full meaning and threat of
this new thing. But Morgoth was ill pleased that Galawrang
had disclosed himself over soon.
Speaker 1 (47:31):
Yeah, so more God isn't happy that Galawrung breaks out
here before he's full grown.
Speaker 2 (47:38):
It's like a little puppy. He just wants to go outside,
just wanted to.
Speaker 1 (47:41):
Go out and play. Yeah. But unfortunately, unfortunately for more Goth,
fortunately for you know, the free people of Larion, they're
able to beat Glawrung and and send him back to Agbon,
send him back to Morgoth with his tail between his legs.
So you know, I would say, uh, you know, fing
(48:03):
On is a pretty pretty heroic dude between between this
and then you know, rescuing Methros, you know, single handedly,
no pun intended.
Speaker 2 (48:16):
Wow, impressive.
Speaker 1 (48:19):
Yeah, so pretty heroic guy. That was nice, just spontaneous. Yeah,
all right. And then after this defeat there was the
long piece of well nigh two hundred years, so so
we got you know, a good period of piece that's
going to happen as a result of this, you know, basically,
(48:41):
just to sum it all up, no door return. They
get into they they try to get into it with
more Goth and they're able to they're not able to
quite able to accomplish what they want to, but they're
able to at least establish a realm of peace in
southern bill are on for a long period of time,
and that's what you know, we uh, that's that's where
(49:04):
we're going to leave this one. Yeah. And and they're
able to flourish now and create some civilization back here,
right using all the knowledge they've gained being in Vallenor
for you know, really a long long period of time. Right,
you know, they've they've all become they're able to bring
some of that skill of civilization back here and you know,
(49:27):
share it with the already talented people of of Valerian,
the already talented elves of Valerian. So yeah, yeah, Well,
did I skip anything that you wanted to hit? Greta?
Speaker 2 (49:39):
No, No, I don't think so. I was that good?
All right? Good overview?
Speaker 1 (49:43):
Yeah? Good, good. Well let's do some haiku, all right,
Rock paper scissors, Shoot, rock paper scissors, shoot you go first,
heroic deed, he fiery folk, find haven, Almo inspires hope.
Speaker 2 (50:05):
That's good.
Speaker 1 (50:06):
Good.
Speaker 2 (50:07):
I like that?
Speaker 1 (50:09):
All right, I'm glad you liked it.
Speaker 2 (50:11):
I like that, I do. All right. Here's mine A
daring rescue to heal a feud song saves his life,
but not his hand.
Speaker 1 (50:21):
Nice. Nice, Oh, I forgot to let me. I know,
I have some iku for this chapter from some listeners.
Let me make sure I get over to those. I
forgot to gather them before for my notes.
Speaker 2 (50:34):
Slacking on the job, cars will It's fine as long
as you get her in m m here we go.
Speaker 1 (50:41):
Uh no, that's not for this chapter. Yeah, I had
to stand by. We're going to find this, all right.
Speaker 2 (51:03):
I feel like I'm not good at filling dead.
Speaker 1 (51:09):
Air space like you're trying to do right now.
Speaker 2 (51:11):
I'm trying really hard, but I can't.
Speaker 1 (51:16):
All right, here we go to say, oh, nice from
red Hawk. Okay, Chapter thirteen, fing On flies to aid
Medros from his hand taken alliance remade.
Speaker 2 (51:29):
I like it, all of our like, yeah, but we
were all clearly on the same wavelength Like that was
the That was the part of this chapter that I
think spoke to all of us, was that rescue of
meth Rose.
Speaker 1 (51:44):
Yeah, yeah, very cool and yes, all right, well, hey,
if we forgot your I've got your high qu or
if you want to leave it later, just leave it
in the comments below. All right, well, I think that
is everything for this episode. Uh hey, don't forget to subscribe,
rate and review us on iTunes or the platform of
(52:06):
your choice. If you're a five star fan of The
Tolkien Road, you can really help us out by heading
over to iTunes your preferred source for the show, and
dropping us a rating and review. When you do that,
it helps get the word out about the Tolkien Road,
which helps us to keep on everring on. All right,
and noe free to drop us a line wherever you
can find us. Thank you to our amazing patrons, especially
the following. John R.
Speaker 2 (52:25):
Caitlin of t with Tolkien, Jacob Lockham, Miss Anonymous, Andrew T.
Speaker 1 (52:29):
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James Oh, Chris L.
Speaker 2 (52:34):
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Speaker 1 (52:36):
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Speaker 1 (52:54):
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Speaker 2 (53:00):
Bye bye,
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