June 2, 2025 • 52 mins
Our 2025 Silmarillion journey continues with Chapter 16 of Quenta Silmarillion - Of Maeglin.
“Of Maeglin” represents a shift in the style of The Silmarillion. While we had previously been dealing in something like a chronicle of the various Elves in Beleriand, with this chapter the scope becomes much narrower, and we focus in on the story of Aredhel, the sister of Turgon, and on the hidden city of Gondolin. “Of Maeglin” is one of the book’s first chapters that really works well as a tale unto itself, although it of course bears significant relation to the rest of The Silmarillion as well.
Silm Guide Link: https://www.tolkienroad.com/silmguide/sg19/
To support our work here, please visit Patreon.com/TolkienRoad.
Enjoy!
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Video of this episode: https://youtu.be/JPgoqAi8qFQ
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“Of Maeglin” represents a shift in the style of The Silmarillion. While we had previously been dealing in something like a chronicle of the various Elves in Beleriand, with this chapter the scope becomes much narrower, and we focus in on the story of Aredhel, the sister of Turgon, and on the hidden city of Gondolin. “Of Maeglin” is one of the book’s first chapters that really works well as a tale unto itself, although it of course bears significant relation to the rest of The Silmarillion as well.
Silm Guide Link: https://www.tolkienroad.com/silmguide/sg19/
To support our work here, please visit Patreon.com/TolkienRoad.
Enjoy!
OTHER LINKS:
Video of this episode: https://youtu.be/JPgoqAi8qFQ
Watch AD-FREE: https://www.patreon.com/posts/129223324
Listen AD-FREE: https://www.patreon.com/posts/67649410
Buy Tolkien Road merch @ True Myths Press
Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/the-tolkien-road--5222755/support.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hey there, fellow travelers. Our twenty twenty five Silmarillion journey
continues with chapter sixteen of Quintus Silmarillion of Miglin. In
chapter sixteen, we're introduced to the story of Aol the Dark,
elf A Redel, the White Lady of the Noldor, and
their son Miglan, whose name means sharp glance. Though a
tale unto itself, it leads to events that will have
dire consequences for all of billeriond. Over the next several months,
(00:23):
will continue revisiting the entire thirty episode Silm Mirillion series
that Greta and I recorded back in twenty twenty two.
While you're listening, check out Selmguide dot com. That's Silmguide
dot com for guides to individual chapters. You can find
that link in the show notes. To support our work here,
please visit Patreon dot com slash Tolkien Road Enjoy. Hey there,
(00:45):
fellow travelers. Welcome to The Tolkien Road Episode two ninety five. Greta,
what's happening to ninety five? Um?
Speaker 2 (00:53):
Yeah, the US, right on? Yeah, what's happening with you?
Speaker 1 (00:58):
The yush cool the episode we will be discussing chapter
sixteen of the film million of Meglin Maglin.
Speaker 2 (01:06):
Maglin, mag What is the right way to say it?
Speaker 1 (01:09):
You know, I've never felt comfortable anyway I try to
say it. I think it's I think it's Maglin, but uh,
you know, if you use the film million. So that's
what I'm sticking with. That's the only version that makes sense.
But I feel like it's subtle, like the right way
to say it. So yeah, anyway, before we get started,
(01:30):
we'd like to give a double up air five to
our patrons. Get them hands up there. Here we go, three, two, one, osh, boom.
That good.
Speaker 3 (01:41):
Nice, Yeah, that's good.
Speaker 1 (01:43):
Special Thanks to this episode's executive producers, John R. Caitlin
of T with Tolkien, Jacob Blockham, John h and our
newest patron and newest executive producer, Scotchy Bobo.
Speaker 2 (01:56):
Awesome.
Speaker 1 (01:57):
Thank you all so much. You guys really appreciate your support.
Appreciate support of all of our patrons. You guys put
the wind in.
Speaker 2 (02:04):
Our sales, so the wind beneath our wings.
Speaker 1 (02:08):
You had to go with wind beneath our wing win
in our sales.
Speaker 2 (02:10):
You know, But I mean eagles is a reference to eagles?
Speaker 1 (02:13):
Okay? Good, as long as no reference to you know.
Speaker 2 (02:16):
Like, that's why I didn't. I can't believe you even thought.
Speaker 1 (02:18):
That, John, Yeah, gosh. Well, anyway, moving on, become a
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(02:41):
and let us know what's on your mind in the
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So our quote of the week is from the Fulmarion
chapter sixteen, and it goes like this, It seemed to
(03:24):
Idrill a thing strange and crooked in Meglin as indeed
the elder ever since have deemed it an evil fruit
of the kin slaying, whereby the shadow of the curse
of Mondos fell upon the last hope of an oldor yes,
words of words, prophetic words of doom.
Speaker 3 (03:43):
Yeah, yeah, I was, I was thinking about that, and
I think we'll probably talk about it in the episode.
But yeah, it seems like this curse just kind of
keeps manifesting in different ways.
Speaker 1 (03:58):
Yeah, yeah, for sure. So you know, would you call
this this chapter a tragedy? Would you call this chapter
of tragedy? Yeah? I think so. Yeah, yeah, pretty tragic events.
In chapter sixteen we learn of a tragic of a
we learn sorry, let's try it again. In chapter sixteen
(04:18):
we learn of the tragic tale of Adothel, the White
Lady of the no oldor Al, the dark elf of
non El Moth Maglin, their son, and Idril, the daughter
of tour Goan. So as with each episode, we won't
be covering every detail of this chapter, but instead doing
our best to hit the high points and unpack interesting
and important details. If we miss something, you guys want
(04:39):
to discuss more, let us know, all right. Timeline, so
per our volume ten, Volume ten, Volume eleven of the
History of Middle Earth, War of the Jewels, the timeline
for this is year of the Sun three sixteen two
Year of the Sun four hundred for this story. So
(05:01):
it actually Tolien kind of jumped around in terms of
what year he put Arathel's departure from Gondolin in what
year he placed that. It originally was placed much much further,
you know, along in the timeline, but he moved it
back and that was where he kept it. And so
Rathel's leaving of Gondolin is in the year three sixteen
(05:23):
and their return with Meglin is in the year four
hundred years of Year of the Sun. So that gives
you an idea of framework for the timeline we're talking
about here, all right. So Arthel restless in Gondolin. The
White Lady of the Noldor. She is the daughter of Fingolfen,
(05:44):
who of course is the high King of the Noldor,
and she lives in Gondolin with her brother Torgon, right,
who is the King of Gondolin. But after a while,
she's not so fond of it anymore. Right, And I
feel like this is this is you know, an old
or thing. Right. They don't they don't like being cooped
(06:06):
up so much, it would seem I think Galadrail is
the same way. Fan Or was certainly the same way.
And I think maybe her not being cooped up maybe
explained something about her her love for the Sons of
fan Or that we learned about later on, right, that
she feels kind of a she feels drawn to them,
right to the Sons of fan Or. So she basically says,
(06:30):
you know, tells Torgon that she would like to leave,
and he's like, uh, you know, why do you want
to leave? Right? I don't want anybody to leave, and
because that's dangerous. This is kind of our little hidden kingdom.
We're all protected here, no one knows the way to
get here. And she's basically like, well, you may be
(06:51):
the king, but i'm your sister, so I'm kind of
gonna do what I want, right, So you can either
help me or you can I'll just I'll just leave
my own volition. So he's like, okay, well I'll send
you then, please. I would like it if you just
went to visit visit Fingn and Hitthlam, right, and so
let's you know, let's let's look at him. Let's look
(07:13):
at a map here, just to refresh ourselves on the op. Yeah,
there we go, all right, So we're right here in Gondolin,
right lake, get the lay of the land, and Hitthlam
of course is right here, and Fingn is the is
the king of this realm. And so in order to leave,
they have to go west right here. And you know,
(07:34):
it's not doesn't seem like too long a trip to
go from Gondolin to Hitthlam there. And that's the plan, right,
She's going to be escorted to Hititlam and to dwell
there with Fingn their brother.
Speaker 2 (07:46):
Yeah, yes, it seems fair. That seems like a good compromise.
Speaker 1 (07:50):
H It's it would maybe seem so, but yeah, Arathel
has no intention of sticking to that plan. And that's
the that's the problem here, right.
Speaker 2 (08:00):
She's a tricksy one.
Speaker 1 (08:02):
Yes, yes, you know, and I mean I can understand
why she wants to get away, and you know, I
can understand that She's like, look, I know you want
to protect me and everything, but like you know, I'm
I'm an old or right, I can handle this. And
you know, she proves to be pretty tough. I would say,
you know, she she We're gonna learn she makes her
way through a lot of perilous realms basically by herself. Right.
Speaker 3 (08:27):
So was do you think Turgon's concern Was it more
for her safety or was it more that he was
afraid that Gondolin would become like found out.
Speaker 1 (08:41):
I'm sure it's both, right, I mean, the probably the
higher priority is that Gondolin is not found out. But anyway,
you know, and you kind of think about it, right,
like you know, before you know, we accuse old Torgon
of being like you know, you know, being overly controlled
and everything like that. Again, remember he was inspired, you know,
(09:03):
to create this city by dream from Olmo. Right, it
is directly inspired. And if you look at the map,
they're really not very far away from, uh from more
goth in his in his realm. Right. So you know,
I know this is a time of relative peace, but
it wouldn't be too surprising if there was like a
little like special Ops band of Orcs that came down here,
like you know, just kind of hung out here hoping
(09:25):
to find hearing rumors of this realm, this hidden realm,
and hoping to find the entrance to it. Right, you
know what if they captured her? Right, So you know,
this is not you know, way down south and there's
really no fear, you know, nothing to fear down here.
This is a you know, this is this is a
strategic concern of Torgon's, right, this is his his concern
(09:47):
as the king of the whole realm. So she has
no intention of really going to Hitlum, but she goes there,
she's escorted, and she's and then they get out and
she's basically like, okay, now we're going to turn south
and we're gonna go and journey to him lad, right,
which is the realm of the sons of fan Or Right,
(10:08):
I want to go see my they're my friends. I
would like to go see them. It would seem that
they want to have they want passage through uh through Dorioth, right,
because that's you know a little bit safer. It's the
realm of Thingle and Melion. But Dorioth doesn't want to
let them pass right, they're not. They're not friendly with
an old or right, so, uh so they're basically told like, look,
(10:31):
you can either go you can if you want to
go see the sons of Fan, or you either have
to go to the north. You have to journey all
the way to the south. That looks like a very
long journey for them to go all the way to
the south. So, uh so Rothel is like, well, we're
going to go the northern route. Of course, this is
bordering on the lands of Eric Gorgoroth and that is
(10:52):
not a friendly place. Uh and Non Non don Gortheb
isn't either, So so this is a pair of thing.
And when they enter into the land of Non Dune
Gortheb Arethel basically like the men Torgon's men who are
keeping watch over her and escorting her basically lose track
of her and she has to make the rest of
(11:14):
the journey herself. And these men, after looking for for
some time, these guards, after're looking for sometime, they return
to Gondolin, and you know she's feared lost at that point.
Speaker 3 (11:24):
Yeah, And that was of no really fault of anybody's
I mean, it's just right, I mean, it was not
that she tried to lose them or they just left
her be they. I mean, it was just a perilous
road and they became separated.
Speaker 1 (11:38):
Right, that's right, that's right. Well, and again, like you know,
she wasn't really open to them saying we were told
not to go here, right, She's like, I'm going to
go where I want to go, and if you guys
want to follow along, you can, right.
Speaker 2 (11:49):
She's got an adventurer's heart.
Speaker 1 (11:52):
Yeah. Well, and you know, very apparently very strong willed
as well.
Speaker 2 (11:55):
Absolutely, yep. As those women of Gondolin are known to.
Speaker 1 (11:58):
Be, yes, are they? Are they known to me?
Speaker 2 (12:00):
Yeah? I think so? Okay, yes, at least this one is.
Speaker 1 (12:05):
All one of them that we know of, all right,
So so yes, passing through, Uh, she does manage to
pass through this perilous region of non Dun Gorthub and
arrives in hym Laud, meets the people, meets the people
of Kelligorm and Quaffin there, but Kelligorm and Kuifin are
(12:26):
not at home, so she she abides there for a
short time and she's welcome there, but at one point
she gets restless again and she goes riding by herself
and she journeys a little too far south and gets
immeshed in non Elmoth here, this forested region here. So
let's read a little bit about non Ellamoth. Yeah, so, Greta,
(12:50):
please read this passage right.
Speaker 3 (12:52):
In that wood and ages past, Melion walked in the
twilight of Middle Earth, when the trees were young and
enchantment lay upon it still. But now the trees of
non Elmoth were the tallest and darkest in all Balirirond.
And there the sun never came. And there al Dwelt,
who was named the dark Elf of Old. He was
of the kin of Thingle, but he was restless and
(13:15):
ill at ease and Dorioth. And when the girdle of
Melion was set about the forest of region where he dwelt,
he fled thence to non Elmoth. There he lived in
deep shadow, loving the night and the twilight under the stars.
He shunned an oldor, holding them to blame for the
return of Morgoth to trouble the quiet of Blairirond. Before
the Dwarfs, he had more liking than any other of
(13:37):
the Elk of Old. From him, the Dwarves aren't much
of what passed in the lands of the Eldar.
Speaker 1 (13:43):
Yeah, so this ale is he's kind of a hermit, right.
He prefers to be on his own. He does not
like an oldor who unfortunately he lives very close to,
and he really doesn't seem to like other elves as
well that much.
Speaker 3 (13:57):
So what is his He says, he's kind of thingle
So does that mean that he's Tilarry.
Speaker 1 (14:02):
Well he sent Yeah, he's send well And I mean
that's what the Sindar are Tilary that didn't make the
final journey too, I'm on right, Yeah, so, uh he
is he is Sindarn and but he feels really I mean,
he feels most at home amongst dwarves, right, he feels
(14:23):
most at home amongst dwarves. And we learned a little
bit more that he's he learns much of metal work
and comes to great skill through his friendship with them.
And he even creates this particular type of metal, uh
that is it says it's so malleable that he could
make it thin and supple, and yet it remained resistant
(14:43):
to all blades and darts. And he named it Galvoorne,
for it was black and shining like jet, and he
was clad in it wherever he went abroad.
Speaker 2 (14:49):
So this is not mythrol, No, this is not myth
through that sounds similar.
Speaker 1 (14:55):
Well, you know it's it's it's powerful metal. Right. So,
and one day he happens to be, you know, in
non ell Moth, and he sees Adithel Arthaniel. He sees
Rothel there, and he really thinks she's thinks she's.
Speaker 2 (15:19):
Something something special.
Speaker 1 (15:20):
Yeah, very fair. She seemed to him, and he desired her,
and he set his enchantments about her so that she
could not find the ways out, but drew ever nearer
to his dwelling in the depths of the wood. There
were his smithy, and his dim halls, and such servants
as he had, silent and secret as their master. And
when Arethel, weary with wandering, came at last to his doors,
he revealed himself, and he welcomed her and led her
(15:41):
into his house, and there she remained for aole, took
her to wife, and it was long ere any of
her kN heard of her again. Now all of that
sounds very you know, like like very suss right, Yeah,
I will say that. You know, let's include in this
account it is not said that that Adithel was wholly unwilling,
nor that her life and non ell Moth was hateful
(16:03):
to her for many years.
Speaker 2 (16:06):
Not unwilling does not initially mean willing.
Speaker 1 (16:08):
Though well not and I agree, right, not wholly unwilling?
So is what it says there?
Speaker 2 (16:16):
It is not said, Okay, yeah, it is not said.
Speaker 1 (16:18):
That Rthel was wholly unwilling, nor that her life and
non ell Moth was hateful to her for many years.
But you know, so it's kind of like it it's
kind of like damning with faint praise, you know, I
think it's the saying right. You know, it wasn't entirely hateful.
It didn't just utterly suck. It only sucked a little bit. Yeah. So,
(16:41):
but definitely, you know, this this just right off the bat.
You know, we see that Ale is a very uh
he's a very problematic figure, you know, to put it
in in a somewhat wishy washy academic way, right, you know,
this is just not right what he does to what
he does to autothel here.
Speaker 2 (17:01):
But isn't it what Meleon did the thingle.
Speaker 1 (17:04):
Well, that's an interesting point, isn't it right? Yeah, But
at the same time, I don't like, you know, I
mean do you do you think do you think it's
completely equivalent?
Speaker 3 (17:16):
Well, I don't want to get on down this rabbit
trail too much because I know I've shared my opinions
like at length on how I feel about enchantments leading area.
Speaker 1 (17:26):
Do we want to revisit that argument?
Speaker 3 (17:28):
I think truly the only difference here is that that
Melion is not nearly as sus as Ale, and that
was the woman taking the lead, which I'm totally fine with.
I just this seems a little more sus to me
because it's it's basically glorified kidnapping.
Speaker 2 (17:47):
Mm hmmm, because Ale is totally sketchy and he lives
in dark woods and you know, I don't know.
Speaker 3 (17:55):
I feel like Thingle could have stood up for himself
if he wanted to, but uh Arthell probably didn't feel
like she could have.
Speaker 2 (18:04):
I feel like she was taken advantage of.
Speaker 1 (18:05):
But at the same time, it talks about I mean
she was pretty I mean she was pretty tough. She
was pretty tough slaty, right, I mean she journeyed through
this perilous region, which was not a small you know,
this wasn't like a day's trip. This is a large
region of Bellerion right, this non dunge Gorth, and it
basically says she came through this region all by herself,
right on the edge of edd Gorgorot. You know, in
(18:25):
later years, this is like where Baron is going to, like,
you know, spend some time and it's going to be
like hell on Earth for him, you know. Yeah, so you.
Speaker 2 (18:35):
Know, no doubt.
Speaker 3 (18:36):
I'm not saying she wasn't tough, but I mean it
was probably it was probably a calculated decision. I mean,
what was what was her what was the alternative? No? Yeah,
I mean did she want to go back through that road?
Probably not.
Speaker 1 (18:51):
I think where I land on all this? All right,
so you brought I didn't even remember the whole Thingle
and mellyon thing, right.
Speaker 2 (18:58):
I feel very strongly about those people.
Speaker 1 (19:00):
Yeah, well you do, and I I to me, it's
just like, okay, it's interesting to think about like what
a Tolkien intent because I feel like, you know, he's
telling story. He's telling stories in a style that you
know that go back to a certain you know, a
certain way of thinking that's not as that's not as
(19:22):
prevalent anymore. And it's all about this idea of like enchantment,
and you know, you know, I mean you like, couldn't
you say that anybody who Okay, just bear with me
for a minute for the sake of argument, all right,
couldn't you say that anybody who sees somebody and says
like I really want, like, I think that person is
(19:44):
the most beautiful person I've ever seen, and I'm just smitten,
like love at first sight, and I have to be
with that person, right, I have to have that person, right,
Like a lots of love stories that we admire begin
that way, right, And and people do things that you
might refer to as enchanting, like putting on the mood,
(20:07):
like you know, putting on the move, all this stuff, right,
whatever you want to like, that's how we put it today.
But it's like.
Speaker 3 (20:13):
This is a different level though, I mean, there's clearly
some like unforeseen power at work, right.
Speaker 1 (20:22):
Yeah, I guess the question is like does she is
she like without without agency? I mean I'm trying, I'm
trying to read back, does she have is she basically
kidnapped or like, you know, what happened, what happens here,
Let's read it again. And when Artha, we were with wondering,
came at last to his doors, he revealed himself, and
(20:43):
he welcomed her, and he let and led her into
his house, and there she remained for Al took her
to wife, and it was long ere any of her
ken heard of her again.
Speaker 2 (20:51):
This doesn't say I mean, I mean, if she had fought,
is that kind of what you're thinking of? Like did
she resist in.
Speaker 1 (20:58):
Yeah, it's like, well, what were the enchantments? You know,
like what you know, what were the enchantments that he used?
And did they like did they wear off to the
at some point and she was able to like make
a you know, a smarter decision or better decision. Like
I don't know, to me, maybe we're reading this text
in the wrong way because like it's not intended to
(21:18):
be that kind of thing, right, Yeah, I feel like
I feel like it's a is it is it unfair
to like assign to like put that reading on like
put that kind of reading on this in this case?
Speaker 3 (21:30):
But I think as we discuss and I get it,
and I think that's a fair question. As we get
further into this into the the chapter and actually like
learn more of the story, I think it reveals something
of Ale's character and I feel like he is revealed
(21:52):
to be. I mean, he he goes after I don't okay,
I don't want to get there before. But I'm saying
I think what we come to learn of Ale's character
makes me think that he definitely kept her there against
her will.
Speaker 2 (22:07):
That's just my two cents.
Speaker 1 (22:09):
He definitely shows off a high degree of possessiveness as
time goes on. Yes, and he refuses you know when
when when later on, you know, and I think this
is probably what you may have been referring to. But
later on, when there's this desire to go back and
visit Gondolin, he's.
Speaker 2 (22:26):
Not He's not warm to that at all, right, he's not.
Speaker 1 (22:29):
And he's not even happy about them going to visit
an old like basically leaving non non elmouth right right exactly.
Speaker 3 (22:36):
So I think that that's that just shows what kind
of person he is, And he's the kind of guy
that wants what he wants and he's going to take
it regardless of you know, consent on the others, on
the other's part.
Speaker 1 (22:52):
But you know, but if they if they were truly okay,
if let's just to say that that they were okay,
like enchantment, you know, working this enchantment means that Okay, yeah,
maybe he was a little like you know, used used
his skills right to like kind of get her there
and then and then but but then you know he
(23:14):
charged like he just charmed her, and she like.
Speaker 2 (23:16):
Truly felt thing charming about him.
Speaker 1 (23:18):
Now you know, well let me finish, right, we don't
we don't see either way, Like we don't know how
he was at first. Like it doesn't basically say like
and he like you know, a ret like you know,
like put handcuffs on her right and never let her
leave the house, right, I mean it you can read
it in a way where it sounds like it sounds
like damning with faint praise. That that's also Tolkien could
(23:42):
just be speaking in such and he speaks in this
kind of archaic way, and that could mean that like
she actually kind of she actually liked him, you know,
she actually liked him at first, right for a long time, right, Yeah.
Speaker 2 (23:55):
That could be. That could be.
Speaker 3 (23:57):
But I also feel like she really didn't have another choice. Yeah,
I mean he clearly he didn't let her leave, even
when she wanted to just go on a visit. But
even if she wanted to escape, escape, like she really
if you look at where now in Elmouth is elmth whatever.
I mean, she really has no no weather options, right,
(24:20):
I mean unless she wants to go back through the
Parallels Road, and I mean, which I guess she could
have done, but at this point she has a kid,
and you know, I don't know.
Speaker 1 (24:30):
Well I think you know. Anyway, we talked about this
particular section a lot longer than you know than I
plan to you, quite honestly. But it's a really interesting
discussion now that I think about it, Like there's you know,
how do you how do you read this? And I
think living in a particular time that we live in,
with the sensitivities that we have, the cultural sensitivities that
(24:51):
we have, we can read this in a way that
maybe it wasn't quite intended to be.
Speaker 2 (24:56):
I think that way. I think that's fair.
Speaker 1 (24:58):
Yeah, I I'm not necessarily defending Ale because we find
out that Ale is not really, you know, this great guy, right,
I mean you tell you definitely is not this great
guy in the grand scheme of things. But uh, you know,
if I if I try to read it in terms
of how Tolkien intended it, I don't think it was
intended to make him sound like he was like, you know,
(25:20):
basically like kidnapped her and made her a sex slave.
Speaker 3 (25:24):
Right, Yeah, so this is you're just saying, this is
not Beauty and the Beast, because that's kind of the
flavor I'm getting. But except obviously it's like Beauty and
the Beast, but without the redeeming.
Speaker 1 (25:36):
Without like a tragic version of beauty.
Speaker 2 (25:38):
It's a tragic version of Beauty and the Beast.
Speaker 1 (25:40):
Okay, I'm just not as up on beating the Beast
as other people.
Speaker 2 (25:43):
That's basically what happens, right.
Speaker 3 (25:44):
She goes wandering in the woods and he catches, you know,
she she wanders into his castle, and he doesn't want
anybody to to, you know, to find him or his castle,
so he helds her hostage in the castle, right, And
she does come to love him so but still he
basically forces her to stay against her will, which I
(26:05):
don't know, that might be extreme. I mean, I don't know.
It just it just rubbed me the wrong way. Yeah,
and that just made me feel bad for Aerothyl because
that's not that's not what she wanted when she left Gondolin.
I can't imagine that's what she wanted.
Speaker 1 (26:21):
Yeah, Yeah, well, hey, so a lot of discussion on that.
Let us know what you think in the comments below
in this one, because I'm genuinely curious to see how
other people read this passage. I'm I'm conflicted on it,
as you can tell. So anyway, all right, moving on,
So through all of this, they have a child, and
(26:43):
the child's name is Maglin, right, So Maglin means sharp
glance in Noldoran. Actually she names him Loman and that
signifies child of the Twilight. And then he receives this
name from his father, Meglin, which is sharp glance.
Speaker 2 (26:58):
So they couldn't even agree on a name.
Speaker 3 (27:00):
Like, he goes and changes the name that Arthell gave him,
which I think is messed up.
Speaker 1 (27:07):
Well, well, that's it's an old door in name, right,
it's so it's forbid, it's a it's in a forbidden tongue.
Speaker 2 (27:12):
The forbidden. Yeah, but he could have used the Oh,
I see what you're saying, and he was. He did
not like then old door, right, right, I understand, And
it says.
Speaker 1 (27:21):
In her heart she gave him a name like she.
I don't think he knew that. I don't think he
knew that she had given him that name, right, says,
it does. She gave him a name in the forbidden
tongue of an old door.
Speaker 2 (27:31):
Yeah right, yeah, so.
Speaker 1 (27:36):
Yeah, so Meglin uh, you know, he grows up. It
says he was tall and black haired. His eyes were
dark yet bright and keen as the eyes of the
old door, and his skin was white. You know, he's
he's pretty much uh in face and form, he resembles
an old or right. So you know, that's interesting because
(27:57):
it also gives this kind of the description of what
an old or you know, physical description of what a
typical nulldor might have looked like. And then we learn
of uh uh. He learns of Gondolin from Rithol from
his mother, right. She tells him about this place where
she came from, and and he is just thinks it
(28:19):
sounds wonderful and he wants to go there. And he
tells his father that he wants to go there, and
Meglin is not happy about that idea. Yep, you are
the You are of the house of ale Megland, my son,
he said, and not of the Golothrim. All this land
is the land of the Tillari. And I will not deal,
nor have my son deal with the slayers of our kin,
the invaders and usurpers of our homes. In this you
(28:41):
shall obey me, or I will set you in bonds
and Meglan did not answer, but was cold and silent
and went abroad no more with Ale, and Ale mistrusted him.
So so yeah, uh he you know, Ale is not
about to, you know, allow them to leave and go
to Gondolin on this trip, but that doesn't stop Meglin
(29:04):
from proposing it to Audthl anyway. And what ends up
happening is they they make their journey.
Speaker 3 (29:10):
So they have to wait until well Ale has left
right to go to a feast.
Speaker 1 (29:15):
So it comes to happen that Ale has left to
go to a feast with the dwarves and and Adithel
and Meglin get a two day head start. They tell
they tell the servants that they're going to visit with
an old Or with the sons of fan Or, but
really they they go straight back to Gondolin from there.
(29:36):
But what does happen is Ale gets home finding out
they're gone, and he hears they've gone to see the
sons of fan Or, and so he decides to go
have a conversation with the sons of fan Or because
he's not happy about this, right, and so that leads
us to this very interesting, heated dialogue between one of
the sons of fan Or and Ale. This one of
the sons of fan Or we speak of is Kuafin
(29:58):
who is you know? I'd basically say this, This is
a conversation between two Ales. So won't you come on?
Speaker 2 (30:07):
That's very clever. Yes, yes, I would agree.
Speaker 1 (30:09):
I know. Still we can keep that clean rating, I'm
telling you, I said, Ale, Ale, Yeah, yep, all right,
all right, So Greta, uh, maybe we can read this
back and forth since it's a dialogue. All right, Well
it's not really there's like narration in it too, so
why don't you go and read it?
Speaker 3 (30:29):
Then, Coryffin said to Ale, what errand have you dark
elf in my lands?
Speaker 2 (30:34):
What at?
Speaker 3 (30:35):
An urgent matter? Perhaps that keeps one to sunshine abroad
by day?
Speaker 2 (30:41):
Yeah, that makes more sense.
Speaker 3 (30:43):
An urgent matter, perhaps that keeps one so sunshy abroad
by day. And Ale, knowing his peril, restrained the bitter
words that arose in his mind. I have learned, Lord Coruyffin.
He said that my son and my wife, the White
Lady of Gondolin, have written to visit you while I
was from home, and it seemed to me fitting that
I should join them on this Errand then Cooruffon laughed
(31:05):
at Aole, and he said, they might have found their
welcome here less warm than they hoped had you accompanied them.
But it is no matter, for that was not their
errand it is not two days since they passed over
the aras Arasiach Arosiach. And thence rode swiftly westward. It
seems that you would deceive me, unless indeed you yourself
(31:26):
have been deceived. And Aol answered, then, lord, perhaps you
will give me leave to go and discover the truth
of this matter. You have my leave, but not my love,
said Couruffin. The sooner you depart from my land, the
better will it please me. Then Eole mounted his horse, saying,
it is good, Lord Couruffin, to find a kinsman thus
kindly a need. I will remember it when I return.
(31:49):
Then Couraffin looked darkly upon Aole. Do not flaunt the
title of your wife before me, he said, For those
who steal the daughters of the Noldor and wed them
without gift or leave, do not gain kinship with their
kin I have given you leave to go take it
and be gone. By the laws of the elder, I
may not slay you at this time and this council,
I add, return now to your dwelling in the darkness
(32:11):
of non Elmouth, for my heart warns me that if
you now pursue those who love you no more, never
will you return thither.
Speaker 1 (32:20):
Yeah. So, uh, not a friendly conversation between those two.
We will. We will see quite a bit more of Courfin,
especially in the story of Baron, and Luthian.
Speaker 2 (32:31):
Agrees with me. Yeah, I mean I think he too
thinks it's messed up.
Speaker 1 (32:35):
Well, I mean, you know, he may agree with you,
but but I wouldn't be like, well, Couriffine agrees with me,
So yeah, right, a Corfin is not exactly the this
like moral paragon, which we find out later on. So yeah, well,
I think he probably agrees with you because he's going
to read whatever Ale did in the worst possible light. Now, no, again,
(32:59):
it's clear that at some point Arithel is there against
her will, right, And uh so you know I get that,
and I'm not I'm not trying to say aol is
like this guy who's just been totally wronged and like
the way he's presented. I'm just saying, like going back,
just going back to that argument real quick. All I'm saying.
All I'm saying, people, is what's the right way to
(33:21):
read that? How did Tolkien intend for that for us
to understand that initially? All right, That's all I'm asking.
Speaker 2 (33:26):
All right, it's a fair question.
Speaker 1 (33:27):
So okay, So yeah, basically we keep on hearing these
foreboding words that you know, hey, you know, something bad
is going to come of this if you try to
follow these people that don't love you anymore. But of course,
I mean aol, I mean, he's going to be he's
going to be really mad about this because not only
(33:48):
did they leave without asking him, but they lied to
him about where they were, about where they were going.
Speaker 2 (33:53):
But he set himself up for that.
Speaker 1 (33:54):
Well, I didn't say, I'm just saying he is going
to be like he is going to be there's no
way he's going back to no, no, right right him?
Right in terms of his character?
Speaker 2 (34:01):
Right, Yeah, exactly. Yeah.
Speaker 3 (34:04):
So I'm just really impressed that he was able to
catch them because he went like he basically went the
wrong way, right and then and they had a two
day head start and he's still caught up with them,
which is pretty crazy to me. I mean, was his
horse just like really fast or did he not stop
(34:26):
for pee breaks or.
Speaker 1 (34:27):
Like, well, there's two of them, and yeah, I mean,
if you're riding fast, you know, if you've got if
you've got anger and adrenaline on your side, then you know,
you might be riding a little faster, right.
Speaker 2 (34:37):
That's true.
Speaker 1 (34:38):
Yeah, So and he probably he probably learned that, you know,
he probably knew that there was no way that if
they got into Gondolin before he reached them, then there
was no way he was going to find them, right, Yeah,
then then they were lost.
Speaker 2 (34:51):
So he's probably wouldn't know the road, right, you know.
Speaker 1 (34:54):
I'm sure he figured out if he didn't know before
he met Rathel, I'm sure he he learned about Gondolin,
you know, and like this the deal with Gondolin from her.
I don't think she told him the hidden road or
anything like that, right anyway, But so he they arrive
and they're they're betrayed by their horses, right because the
(35:15):
horses neigh very loudly. And then Ale's horse hears ther,
here's those horses, and he finds them just in time
to follow them without them seeing him, right, so he's
able to follow them through. Then, by ill fate, they
were portrayed. For the horses made loudly, and Ale's steed
heard them and sped towards them. And Ale saw from
afar that white raiment of Atithel and marked which way
(35:37):
she went, seeking the secret path into the mountains. All right,
so they returned to Gondolin. Everyone is of course happy
to see Adithel after all this time, and h of course,
no one more so than tor Gone. And and he's
very he's very warm, you know, towards Maglin. He really
(35:59):
he sees mag and he's like, all right, well here's
a you know, true true son of you know, true
son of the knoldor right here, right, this is a
you know, this is a pleasant surprise, right.
Speaker 3 (36:10):
And and Turn himself has no heir, right because he
only has a daughter. So I'm sure he saw Maglin
and was like, oh.
Speaker 1 (36:18):
Well, and and actually you know this something we didn't
mention earlier. But when Maglin's first hears about he when
he when his mother first tells him about Gondolin, and
you know, kind of describes that situation, right, you know,
he learns like, Okay, he's like, you know this this
(36:39):
son of the king's sister, right, and the king has
no heir. Right, He's like, you know, it doesn't say directly,
but you could's like, you know, he's calculating, right, it's
it talks about him. He's kind, oh, I could be
the king of Gondolin maybe, Okay, yeah, all right, So
(37:00):
so that's all part of you know, his his desire
right to want to come back to Gondolin and and
to see it and to dwell there. And you know,
they know that once they're back, they're really probably is
not going to be any more leaving at that point.
But Aol does uh does show up as well, and
(37:22):
he's he's of course caught by the guards as he's
coming into Gondolin, uh, And they bring him before Torgon
and and they, you know, tor Goon basically gives him
the you know, basically gives him the what for.
Speaker 2 (37:37):
Is actually pretty nice to well, I would have been
that nice to he.
Speaker 1 (37:40):
Is, but he, you know, he does he gives them
a little bit of the what for. But but we'll
read this passage here. And so it was done, and
Ale was brought to Torgon's hall, and stood before his
high seat, proud and sullen. Though he was amazed no
less than his son. At all that he saw, his
heart was filled the more with anger and with hate
of an oldor. But Torgon treated him with honor, and
rose up and would take his hand, and he said, welcome, kinsman.
(38:02):
For so I hold you here. You shall dwell at
your pleasure, save only that you must here abide and
depart not from my kingdom. For it is my law
that none who finds the way hither shall depart. But
Ale withdrew his hand. I acknowledge not your law, he said.
No right have you or any of your can in
this land to seize realms or to set bounds, either
here or there. This is the land of the Tillary,
(38:24):
to which you bring war, and all in quiet dealing,
ever proudly and unjustly, I care nothing for your secrets.
Night can came not to spy upon you, but to
claim my own, my wife, and my son. Yet if
in Atathel your sister you have some claim, then let
her remain. Let the bird go back to the cage,
where soon she will sicken again, as she sickened before
but not so Meglin, my son, you shall not withhold
(38:46):
from me, Come Meglan, son of Ale, Your father commands
you leave the house of his enemies in the slayers
of his ken, or be accursed. But Meglin answered nothing.
Then Torgon sat in his high seat, holding the staff
of his staff of Denys, and in a stern voice, spoke,
I will not debate with you, dark elf, by the
swords of then old or alone? Are you are? Are
(39:07):
you are? Your sunless woods defended your freedom to wander there,
wild wild, you owe to my ken, and but for them,
long since you would have labored, enthralled them in the
pits of angband. And here I am king. And whether
you will it or will it not, my doom is law.
This choice only is given to you to abide here
or to die here. And so also for your son.
(39:29):
So you know, Ale, he he's not a team player, right,
He sees things a certain way, you know, And he's
a very I mean, he's just an interesting character in
that way, right, He's just this curmudgeonly kind of figure, right.
It doesn't you know, doesn't want a whole lot to
do with anybody else, wants to be left alone. In general.
(39:51):
That's why he lives deep in the woods. And you know,
he doesn't respect then old or he thinks that they are,
that they're they're unwelcome, that they brought trouble, and he's
not about to you know, be berated by this, you know,
and told he has to stay and be berated by this,
(40:11):
you know, by this king who he used as a pretender.
Right yep, uh, you know, someone unrightful. So what's Ale's
what's Ale going to do in this case? I mean
he's going to try He's going to try and kill somebody, right,
I mean, that's that's basically where he's at. I mean,
you know, you might argue that he could have you know,
(40:33):
he could have calculated or bied his time or something
like that, which Mageland seems to be doing. But Ale
is just he's not wired that way. And so Al
it turns out he's hiding he's been hiding a javelin
this whole time, poison tip javelin. He attempts to kill Maglin,
(40:54):
and Arathel throws herself in front of him and ends
up being the one that's wounded and mortally wounded. So
Al was responsible for the death of Meglin, which is
the I'm sorry for the death of Adothel, even though
he was trying to kill me. He was trying to
kill megln and responsible for the death of Adothel. Now
(41:14):
Arthel had had basically before she died, she'd said, you know, look,
just have mercy on him, right, you know, you know,
we don't need to put him to death or anything
like that. But then she dies and it's like, well
that's there goes that, right, Yeah, all bets are off
at this point. Therefore, when Ale was brought before Torgon,
he found no mercy, and they led him forth to
(41:36):
the cad a precipice of place, a precipice of black rock,
upon the north side of the hill of Gondolin, there
to cast him down from the sheer walls of the city.
And Meglin stood by and said nothing. But at the
last Ale cried out, so you forsake your father and
his kin, ill gotten son. Here shall you fail of
all your hopes, and here may you yet die the
(41:57):
same death as I. So meg Glynn doesn't speak up
for him, and they Ol basically curses him. Then they
cast Ale over the cartag door, and so he ended
into all and Gondolin it seemed just. But Idril was
troubled and from that day she mistrusted her kinsman, and
so I take it that to me. And she's troubled
by the fact that they put him to death, right
Is that how you understood that? Does she was troubled by,
(42:19):
uh by by the fact that they put you know,
basically gave a the death penalty.
Speaker 2 (42:24):
Yeah, that's how I read it too.
Speaker 1 (42:25):
I mean, yeah, it seems like that's that seems like
what it's saying right there.
Speaker 3 (42:28):
I think we failed to mention earlier that Idrill that
Mageland has.
Speaker 2 (42:32):
A thing for Drill.
Speaker 3 (42:34):
Yes, Andril is the daughter of Tehran, that's right, So
I mean they're technically cousins. Yeah, right, yeah, Dril does
not feel the same, right, But anyway.
Speaker 1 (42:45):
Well that's that's what Yeah. Well, and it kind of
says that that was the first half of that quote
of our quote of the week.
Speaker 2 (42:52):
Right, Yes, that it refers to you.
Speaker 1 (42:54):
Know what it refers to. But anyway, al Ale dies.
But Meglin, you know, really is he's kind of held
in high esteem in the court of Torgon and says
he's wise in counsel and wary and yet hearty and
valiant at need. Right, he takes part in some of
the great battles they're going to happen. So you know,
(43:16):
he is a he's quite quite an individual, even though
he's pretty quiet like his father. Right, he doesn't, he's
kind of an elf A few words, right, But yes,
he does have a He does have a thing for Idril. Right,
For from his first days in Gondolin he had borne
a grief, ever worsening that robbed him of all joy.
(43:37):
He loved the beauty of Idril and desired her without
hope the Eldar wedded, not with Ken so near, nor
ever before, had any desire to do so. First cousins,
and however that might be, Idril loved Meglin not at all,
and knowing his thought of her, she loved him the less,
for it seemed to her a strange thing and crooked
in him. As indeed the Eldar ever since have deemed
it an evil fruit of the kin slaying, whereby the
(43:58):
shadow of the curse of mind fell upon the last
hope of then Olldor. You know, so, pretty pretty adult,
pretty adult themed, pretty adult themes going on here, right,
you know? We we we talk about the controversy over
just you know, the controversy of Ale and his enchantment
(44:19):
of Atathel right to lead off the chapter. And then
we have you know, Meglin and his uh, you know,
his desire for you know, basically his first cousin. Right,
So it's interesting to see you know, this kind of
a how should we put it? Right? This like you know,
(44:41):
this this thing repeating itself right in the life of
in the life of Meglin that was you know, some
some kind of issue of his father's as well, right,
you know, you're just like, yeah, this is not going
to play out well, this is this is this is
not gonna end well. And you know that's essentially the
tragedy of this figure Meglin. And by the way, you know,
(45:04):
this is an interesting chapter to kind of be inserted
here into this sulm really, because you know, someone has
been jumping back and forth between chapters that are like
talking about like who rules what realm and maps and
you know, we had all several chapters where we were
talking about like the the noldor leaving vallenor and so
you know it's just kind of this some runs kind
(45:25):
of this roller coaster in this chapter, like well, what
does this chapter have to do with anything? Right, It's
just kind of the story of this dark elf and
it's just this sad story about like you know this
you know how he he enchanted this you know this
elf lady and you know they had a child together
and then he he killed her when he was trying
to kill his son because he was mad that they
wouldn't leave with him, right, And like, what does this
(45:49):
have to do with anything? Well, it's it's it's sowing
seeds for greater tragedies later because of what it's doing, right,
It's you know, it's this idea that like it really
is like that the Oath of Fan or the Curse
of Mandos, like all these things are going to manifest
and really, uh more and more tragic ways as the
(46:09):
rest of the story unfolds.
Speaker 2 (46:10):
It this seems pretty tragic to me.
Speaker 1 (46:12):
Well it is, it is, and you know, I mean
many tears to be shed over.
Speaker 2 (46:16):
This, yeah, yeah, there's are.
Speaker 1 (46:19):
Yeah, And and the truth is that Maglin is going
to play a big part in that, right, So all right? Yeah,
any final thoughts there, Greta.
Speaker 2 (46:31):
All right, good discussion.
Speaker 1 (46:33):
I think you got a haiku?
Speaker 2 (46:35):
Yeah, all right, are you in rock paper scissors.
Speaker 1 (46:38):
Rock paper scissors, shoot boom. First all right, dark Elf
of deep Woods, Lady of Hidden Haven, child of sharp Secrets.
Speaker 2 (46:51):
It's really good. I like that a lot. Well done.
All right, here's man.
Speaker 3 (47:00):
And that's why you don't marry sketchy yelves that live
in sunless forests.
Speaker 1 (47:08):
Mm hmmm nice. Yeah, spoken like the guy on Arrested Development.
Speaker 2 (47:14):
If only I had a mic drop.
Speaker 1 (47:16):
That's why you listen to your father, I'm saying, that's
why you don't yell.
Speaker 2 (47:24):
Yeah, all right, it's just nothing good could come of it,
you know, yeah, clearly nothing.
Speaker 1 (47:28):
To Okay, Well, all right, I'm just I'm curious to
know though, like, like what, what to you is the
distinction between single melion and uh like what because you
brought it up right melyon, but discuss this, okay. I
just kind of want to come back the final your
final word on it. I'm just I'm interested, okay.
Speaker 3 (47:48):
Well, first of all, melion not nearly as sketchy as ale.
Speaker 2 (47:54):
Okay, Okay, She's.
Speaker 1 (47:55):
Like the sketchiness factor has.
Speaker 3 (47:57):
Definitely a big arger sketchiness factor or here, and the
fact that the male was enchanting the female automatically makes
it more not okay for me, And I mean Melian
(48:17):
was gorgeous and so is Thingle, so I was totally
fine with that, you know. I mean I still feel
like and Thingle could have stood up for himself. I
think that's why I just feel and not, oh gosh,
I'm really need to careful about what I say here.
Not that Arithel could not have stood up for herself,
but I feel like if Thingle wanted to leave, it
would have been much easier for him to leave. I mean,
(48:39):
first of all, he was in a better part, Like
he was not in the same I guess they were
in the same forest, but still like he's he he,
he just would have had more of an ability to
get out of that situation than Arethel did, just given
the fact that she's a woman.
Speaker 1 (48:58):
Okay, all right, that's just me, all right, what I
just I think it's really I you know, I was
just kind of set on, like, yeah, Ale was being
a bad dude, and then we brought the meg we
brought the Dingle and melee on thing into it.
Speaker 3 (49:13):
How can we know because it's like it's obviously the
same thing but reversed a little bit.
Speaker 1 (49:19):
Well, No, That's all I'm saying is like, when we
brought that into the equation, I was like, okay, yeah,
what is the difference? Wait a minute, what's going Like?
How do we how do we you know, how do
we assess that? Right? And I was like, because because
we don't look at Thingle and melee On and say like,
how dare melee On? Right, It's like it's like, yeah,
like Thingle was like saw this like the most beautiful
(49:41):
of like all creatures he'd probably ever seen, right, and
was just completely enchanted with her, and she was enchanted
with him.
Speaker 2 (49:47):
Right, So maybe that's the thing. It was more consensual.
Speaker 3 (49:50):
I feel like between Thingle and meley On, this gives
me the air of not being consensual.
Speaker 2 (49:54):
Okay, Like there is more of a force, there's more
of a.
Speaker 1 (49:57):
I can see that. I can definitely see that, esecially
as time went on. You know. But but you know,
this is I think I thought it was a really
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I completely agree, and I'm really interested to.
Speaker 2 (50:11):
Hear what our listeners think about Yes for sure.
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Bye bye
Hey there, fellow travelers. Our twenty twenty five Silmarillion journey
continues with chapter sixteen of Quintus Silmarillion of Miglin. In
chapter sixteen, we're introduced to the story of Aol the Dark,
elf A Redel, the White Lady of the Noldor, and
their son Miglan, whose name means sharp glance. Though a
tale unto itself, it leads to events that will have
dire consequences for all of billeriond. Over the next several months,
(00:23):
will continue revisiting the entire thirty episode Silm Mirillion series
that Greta and I recorded back in twenty twenty two.
While you're listening, check out Selmguide dot com. That's Silmguide
dot com for guides to individual chapters. You can find
that link in the show notes. To support our work here,
please visit Patreon dot com slash Tolkien Road Enjoy. Hey there,
(00:45):
fellow travelers. Welcome to The Tolkien Road Episode two ninety five. Greta,
what's happening to ninety five? Um?
Speaker 2 (00:53):
Yeah, the US, right on? Yeah, what's happening with you?
Speaker 1 (00:58):
The yush cool the episode we will be discussing chapter
sixteen of the film million of Meglin Maglin.
Speaker 2 (01:06):
Maglin, mag What is the right way to say it?
Speaker 1 (01:09):
You know, I've never felt comfortable anyway I try to
say it. I think it's I think it's Maglin, but uh,
you know, if you use the film million. So that's
what I'm sticking with. That's the only version that makes sense.
But I feel like it's subtle, like the right way
to say it. So yeah, anyway, before we get started,
(01:30):
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Nice, Yeah, that's good.
Speaker 1 (01:43):
Special Thanks to this episode's executive producers, John R. Caitlin
of T with Tolkien, Jacob Blockham, John h and our
newest patron and newest executive producer, Scotchy Bobo.
Speaker 2 (01:56):
Awesome.
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Thank you all so much. You guys really appreciate your support.
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Our sales, so the wind beneath our wings.
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You had to go with wind beneath our wing win
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You know, But I mean eagles is a reference to eagles?
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Okay? Good, as long as no reference to you know.
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Like, that's why I didn't. I can't believe you even thought.
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That, John, Yeah, gosh. Well, anyway, moving on, become a
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So our quote of the week is from the Fulmarion
chapter sixteen, and it goes like this, It seemed to
(03:24):
Idrill a thing strange and crooked in Meglin as indeed
the elder ever since have deemed it an evil fruit
of the kin slaying, whereby the shadow of the curse
of Mondos fell upon the last hope of an oldor yes,
words of words, prophetic words of doom.
Speaker 3 (03:43):
Yeah, yeah, I was, I was thinking about that, and
I think we'll probably talk about it in the episode.
But yeah, it seems like this curse just kind of
keeps manifesting in different ways.
Speaker 1 (03:58):
Yeah, yeah, for sure. So you know, would you call
this this chapter a tragedy? Would you call this chapter
of tragedy? Yeah? I think so. Yeah, yeah, pretty tragic events.
In chapter sixteen we learn of a tragic of a
we learn sorry, let's try it again. In chapter sixteen
(04:18):
we learn of the tragic tale of Adothel, the White
Lady of the no oldor Al, the dark elf of
non El Moth Maglin, their son, and Idril, the daughter
of tour Goan. So as with each episode, we won't
be covering every detail of this chapter, but instead doing
our best to hit the high points and unpack interesting
and important details. If we miss something, you guys want
(04:39):
to discuss more, let us know, all right. Timeline, so
per our volume ten, Volume ten, Volume eleven of the
History of Middle Earth, War of the Jewels, the timeline
for this is year of the Sun three sixteen two
Year of the Sun four hundred for this story. So
(05:01):
it actually Tolien kind of jumped around in terms of
what year he put Arathel's departure from Gondolin in what
year he placed that. It originally was placed much much further,
you know, along in the timeline, but he moved it
back and that was where he kept it. And so
Rathel's leaving of Gondolin is in the year three sixteen
(05:23):
and their return with Meglin is in the year four
hundred years of Year of the Sun. So that gives
you an idea of framework for the timeline we're talking
about here, all right. So Arthel restless in Gondolin. The
White Lady of the Noldor. She is the daughter of Fingolfen,
(05:44):
who of course is the high King of the Noldor,
and she lives in Gondolin with her brother Torgon, right,
who is the King of Gondolin. But after a while,
she's not so fond of it anymore. Right, And I
feel like this is this is you know, an old
or thing. Right. They don't they don't like being cooped
(06:06):
up so much, it would seem I think Galadrail is
the same way. Fan Or was certainly the same way.
And I think maybe her not being cooped up maybe
explained something about her her love for the Sons of
fan Or that we learned about later on, right, that
she feels kind of a she feels drawn to them,
right to the Sons of fan Or. So she basically says,
(06:30):
you know, tells Torgon that she would like to leave,
and he's like, uh, you know, why do you want
to leave? Right? I don't want anybody to leave, and
because that's dangerous. This is kind of our little hidden kingdom.
We're all protected here, no one knows the way to
get here. And she's basically like, well, you may be
(06:51):
the king, but i'm your sister, so I'm kind of
gonna do what I want, right, So you can either
help me or you can I'll just I'll just leave
my own volition. So he's like, okay, well I'll send
you then, please. I would like it if you just
went to visit visit Fingn and Hitthlam, right, and so
let's you know, let's let's look at him. Let's look
(07:13):
at a map here, just to refresh ourselves on the op. Yeah,
there we go, all right, So we're right here in Gondolin,
right lake, get the lay of the land, and Hitthlam
of course is right here, and Fingn is the is
the king of this realm. And so in order to leave,
they have to go west right here. And you know,
(07:34):
it's not doesn't seem like too long a trip to
go from Gondolin to Hitthlam there. And that's the plan, right,
She's going to be escorted to Hititlam and to dwell
there with Fingn their brother.
Speaker 2 (07:46):
Yeah, yes, it seems fair. That seems like a good compromise.
Speaker 1 (07:50):
H It's it would maybe seem so, but yeah, Arathel
has no intention of sticking to that plan. And that's
the that's the problem here, right.
Speaker 2 (08:00):
She's a tricksy one.
Speaker 1 (08:02):
Yes, yes, you know, and I mean I can understand
why she wants to get away, and you know, I
can understand that She's like, look, I know you want
to protect me and everything, but like you know, I'm
I'm an old or right, I can handle this. And
you know, she proves to be pretty tough. I would say,
you know, she she We're gonna learn she makes her
way through a lot of perilous realms basically by herself. Right.
Speaker 3 (08:27):
So was do you think Turgon's concern Was it more
for her safety or was it more that he was
afraid that Gondolin would become like found out.
Speaker 1 (08:41):
I'm sure it's both, right, I mean, the probably the
higher priority is that Gondolin is not found out. But anyway,
you know, and you kind of think about it, right,
like you know, before you know, we accuse old Torgon
of being like you know, you know, being overly controlled
and everything like that. Again, remember he was inspired, you know,
(09:03):
to create this city by dream from Olmo. Right, it
is directly inspired. And if you look at the map,
they're really not very far away from, uh from more
goth in his in his realm. Right. So you know,
I know this is a time of relative peace, but
it wouldn't be too surprising if there was like a
little like special Ops band of Orcs that came down here,
like you know, just kind of hung out here hoping
(09:25):
to find hearing rumors of this realm, this hidden realm,
and hoping to find the entrance to it. Right, you
know what if they captured her? Right, So you know,
this is not you know, way down south and there's
really no fear, you know, nothing to fear down here.
This is a you know, this is this is a
strategic concern of Torgon's, right, this is his his concern
(09:47):
as the king of the whole realm. So she has
no intention of really going to Hitlum, but she goes there,
she's escorted, and she's and then they get out and
she's basically like, okay, now we're going to turn south
and we're gonna go and journey to him lad, right,
which is the realm of the sons of fan Or Right,
(10:08):
I want to go see my they're my friends. I
would like to go see them. It would seem that
they want to have they want passage through uh through Dorioth, right,
because that's you know a little bit safer. It's the
realm of Thingle and Melion. But Dorioth doesn't want to
let them pass right, they're not. They're not friendly with
an old or right, so, uh so they're basically told like, look,
(10:31):
you can either go you can if you want to
go see the sons of Fan, or you either have
to go to the north. You have to journey all
the way to the south. That looks like a very
long journey for them to go all the way to
the south. So, uh so Rothel is like, well, we're
going to go the northern route. Of course, this is
bordering on the lands of Eric Gorgoroth and that is
(10:52):
not a friendly place. Uh and Non Non don Gortheb
isn't either, So so this is a pair of thing.
And when they enter into the land of Non Dune
Gortheb Arethel basically like the men Torgon's men who are
keeping watch over her and escorting her basically lose track
of her and she has to make the rest of
(11:14):
the journey herself. And these men, after looking for for
some time, these guards, after're looking for sometime, they return
to Gondolin, and you know she's feared lost at that point.
Speaker 3 (11:24):
Yeah, And that was of no really fault of anybody's
I mean, it's just right, I mean, it was not
that she tried to lose them or they just left
her be they. I mean, it was just a perilous
road and they became separated.
Speaker 1 (11:38):
Right, that's right, that's right. Well, and again, like you know,
she wasn't really open to them saying we were told
not to go here, right, She's like, I'm going to
go where I want to go, and if you guys
want to follow along, you can, right.
Speaker 2 (11:49):
She's got an adventurer's heart.
Speaker 1 (11:52):
Yeah. Well, and you know, very apparently very strong willed
as well.
Speaker 2 (11:55):
Absolutely, yep. As those women of Gondolin are known to.
Speaker 1 (11:58):
Be, yes, are they? Are they known to me?
Speaker 2 (12:00):
Yeah? I think so? Okay, yes, at least this one is.
Speaker 1 (12:05):
All one of them that we know of, all right,
So so yes, passing through, Uh, she does manage to
pass through this perilous region of non Dun Gorthub and
arrives in hym Laud, meets the people, meets the people
of Kelligorm and Quaffin there, but Kelligorm and Kuifin are
(12:26):
not at home, so she she abides there for a
short time and she's welcome there, but at one point
she gets restless again and she goes riding by herself
and she journeys a little too far south and gets
immeshed in non Elmoth here, this forested region here. So
let's read a little bit about non Ellamoth. Yeah, so, Greta,
(12:50):
please read this passage right.
Speaker 3 (12:52):
In that wood and ages past, Melion walked in the
twilight of Middle Earth, when the trees were young and
enchantment lay upon it still. But now the trees of
non Elmoth were the tallest and darkest in all Balirirond.
And there the sun never came. And there al Dwelt,
who was named the dark Elf of Old. He was
of the kin of Thingle, but he was restless and
(13:15):
ill at ease and Dorioth. And when the girdle of
Melion was set about the forest of region where he dwelt,
he fled thence to non Elmoth. There he lived in
deep shadow, loving the night and the twilight under the stars.
He shunned an oldor, holding them to blame for the
return of Morgoth to trouble the quiet of Blairirond. Before
the Dwarfs, he had more liking than any other of
(13:37):
the Elk of Old. From him, the Dwarves aren't much
of what passed in the lands of the Eldar.
Speaker 1 (13:43):
Yeah, so this ale is he's kind of a hermit, right.
He prefers to be on his own. He does not
like an oldor who unfortunately he lives very close to,
and he really doesn't seem to like other elves as
well that much.
Speaker 3 (13:57):
So what is his He says, he's kind of thingle
So does that mean that he's Tilarry.
Speaker 1 (14:02):
Well he sent Yeah, he's send well And I mean
that's what the Sindar are Tilary that didn't make the
final journey too, I'm on right, Yeah, so, uh he
is he is Sindarn and but he feels really I mean,
he feels most at home amongst dwarves, right, he feels
(14:23):
most at home amongst dwarves. And we learned a little
bit more that he's he learns much of metal work
and comes to great skill through his friendship with them.
And he even creates this particular type of metal, uh
that is it says it's so malleable that he could
make it thin and supple, and yet it remained resistant
(14:43):
to all blades and darts. And he named it Galvoorne,
for it was black and shining like jet, and he
was clad in it wherever he went abroad.
Speaker 2 (14:49):
So this is not mythrol, No, this is not myth
through that sounds similar.
Speaker 1 (14:55):
Well, you know it's it's it's powerful metal. Right. So,
and one day he happens to be, you know, in
non ell Moth, and he sees Adithel Arthaniel. He sees
Rothel there, and he really thinks she's thinks she's.
Speaker 2 (15:19):
Something something special.
Speaker 1 (15:20):
Yeah, very fair. She seemed to him, and he desired her,
and he set his enchantments about her so that she
could not find the ways out, but drew ever nearer
to his dwelling in the depths of the wood. There
were his smithy, and his dim halls, and such servants
as he had, silent and secret as their master. And
when Arethel, weary with wandering, came at last to his doors,
he revealed himself, and he welcomed her and led her
(15:41):
into his house, and there she remained for aole, took
her to wife, and it was long ere any of
her kN heard of her again. Now all of that
sounds very you know, like like very suss right, Yeah,
I will say that. You know, let's include in this
account it is not said that that Adithel was wholly unwilling,
nor that her life and non ell Moth was hateful
(16:03):
to her for many years.
Speaker 2 (16:06):
Not unwilling does not initially mean willing.
Speaker 1 (16:08):
Though well not and I agree, right, not wholly unwilling?
So is what it says there?
Speaker 2 (16:16):
It is not said, Okay, yeah, it is not said.
Speaker 1 (16:18):
That Rthel was wholly unwilling, nor that her life and
non ell Moth was hateful to her for many years.
But you know, so it's kind of like it it's
kind of like damning with faint praise, you know, I
think it's the saying right. You know, it wasn't entirely hateful.
It didn't just utterly suck. It only sucked a little bit. Yeah. So,
(16:41):
but definitely, you know, this this just right off the bat.
You know, we see that Ale is a very uh
he's a very problematic figure, you know, to put it
in in a somewhat wishy washy academic way, right, you know,
this is just not right what he does to what
he does to autothel here.
Speaker 2 (17:01):
But isn't it what Meleon did the thingle.
Speaker 1 (17:04):
Well, that's an interesting point, isn't it right? Yeah, But
at the same time, I don't like, you know, I
mean do you do you think do you think it's
completely equivalent?
Speaker 3 (17:16):
Well, I don't want to get on down this rabbit
trail too much because I know I've shared my opinions
like at length on how I feel about enchantments leading area.
Speaker 1 (17:26):
Do we want to revisit that argument?
Speaker 3 (17:28):
I think truly the only difference here is that that
Melion is not nearly as sus as Ale, and that
was the woman taking the lead, which I'm totally fine with.
I just this seems a little more sus to me
because it's it's basically glorified kidnapping.
Speaker 2 (17:47):
Mm hmmm, because Ale is totally sketchy and he lives
in dark woods and you know, I don't know.
Speaker 3 (17:55):
I feel like Thingle could have stood up for himself
if he wanted to, but uh Arthell probably didn't feel
like she could have.
Speaker 2 (18:04):
I feel like she was taken advantage of.
Speaker 1 (18:05):
But at the same time, it talks about I mean
she was pretty I mean she was pretty tough. She
was pretty tough slaty, right, I mean she journeyed through
this perilous region, which was not a small you know,
this wasn't like a day's trip. This is a large
region of Bellerion right, this non dunge Gorth, and it
basically says she came through this region all by herself,
right on the edge of edd Gorgorot. You know, in
(18:25):
later years, this is like where Baron is going to, like,
you know, spend some time and it's going to be
like hell on Earth for him, you know. Yeah, so you.
Speaker 2 (18:35):
Know, no doubt.
Speaker 3 (18:36):
I'm not saying she wasn't tough, but I mean it
was probably it was probably a calculated decision. I mean,
what was what was her what was the alternative? No? Yeah,
I mean did she want to go back through that road?
Probably not.
Speaker 1 (18:51):
I think where I land on all this? All right,
so you brought I didn't even remember the whole Thingle
and mellyon thing, right.
Speaker 2 (18:58):
I feel very strongly about those people.
Speaker 1 (19:00):
Yeah, well you do, and I I to me, it's
just like, okay, it's interesting to think about like what
a Tolkien intent because I feel like, you know, he's
telling story. He's telling stories in a style that you
know that go back to a certain you know, a
certain way of thinking that's not as that's not as
(19:22):
prevalent anymore. And it's all about this idea of like enchantment,
and you know, you know, I mean you like, couldn't
you say that anybody who Okay, just bear with me
for a minute for the sake of argument, all right,
couldn't you say that anybody who sees somebody and says
like I really want, like, I think that person is
(19:44):
the most beautiful person I've ever seen, and I'm just smitten,
like love at first sight, and I have to be
with that person, right, I have to have that person, right,
Like a lots of love stories that we admire begin
that way, right, And and people do things that you
might refer to as enchanting, like putting on the mood,
(20:07):
like you know, putting on the move, all this stuff, right,
whatever you want to like, that's how we put it today.
But it's like.
Speaker 3 (20:13):
This is a different level though, I mean, there's clearly
some like unforeseen power at work, right.
Speaker 1 (20:22):
Yeah, I guess the question is like does she is
she like without without agency? I mean I'm trying, I'm
trying to read back, does she have is she basically
kidnapped or like, you know, what happened, what happens here,
Let's read it again. And when Artha, we were with wondering,
came at last to his doors, he revealed himself, and
(20:43):
he welcomed her, and he let and led her into
his house, and there she remained for Al took her
to wife, and it was long ere any of her
ken heard of her again.
Speaker 2 (20:51):
This doesn't say I mean, I mean, if she had fought,
is that kind of what you're thinking of? Like did
she resist in.
Speaker 1 (20:58):
Yeah, it's like, well, what were the enchantments? You know,
like what you know, what were the enchantments that he used?
And did they like did they wear off to the
at some point and she was able to like make
a you know, a smarter decision or better decision. Like
I don't know, to me, maybe we're reading this text
in the wrong way because like it's not intended to
(21:18):
be that kind of thing, right, Yeah, I feel like
I feel like it's a is it is it unfair
to like assign to like put that reading on like
put that kind of reading on this in this case?
Speaker 3 (21:30):
But I think as we discuss and I get it,
and I think that's a fair question. As we get
further into this into the the chapter and actually like
learn more of the story, I think it reveals something
of Ale's character and I feel like he is revealed
(21:52):
to be. I mean, he he goes after I don't okay,
I don't want to get there before. But I'm saying
I think what we come to learn of Ale's character
makes me think that he definitely kept her there against
her will.
Speaker 2 (22:07):
That's just my two cents.
Speaker 1 (22:09):
He definitely shows off a high degree of possessiveness as
time goes on. Yes, and he refuses you know when
when when later on, you know, and I think this
is probably what you may have been referring to. But
later on, when there's this desire to go back and
visit Gondolin, he's.
Speaker 2 (22:26):
Not He's not warm to that at all, right, he's not.
Speaker 1 (22:29):
And he's not even happy about them going to visit
an old like basically leaving non non elmouth right right exactly.
Speaker 3 (22:36):
So I think that that's that just shows what kind
of person he is, And he's the kind of guy
that wants what he wants and he's going to take
it regardless of you know, consent on the others, on
the other's part.
Speaker 1 (22:52):
But you know, but if they if they were truly okay,
if let's just to say that that they were okay,
like enchantment, you know, working this enchantment means that Okay, yeah,
maybe he was a little like you know, used used
his skills right to like kind of get her there
and then and then but but then you know he
(23:14):
charged like he just charmed her, and she like.
Speaker 2 (23:16):
Truly felt thing charming about him.
Speaker 1 (23:18):
Now you know, well let me finish, right, we don't
we don't see either way, Like we don't know how
he was at first. Like it doesn't basically say like
and he like you know, a ret like you know,
like put handcuffs on her right and never let her
leave the house, right, I mean it you can read
it in a way where it sounds like it sounds
like damning with faint praise. That that's also Tolkien could
(23:42):
just be speaking in such and he speaks in this
kind of archaic way, and that could mean that like
she actually kind of she actually liked him, you know,
she actually liked him at first, right for a long time, right, Yeah.
Speaker 2 (23:55):
That could be. That could be.
Speaker 3 (23:57):
But I also feel like she really didn't have another choice. Yeah,
I mean he clearly he didn't let her leave, even
when she wanted to just go on a visit. But
even if she wanted to escape, escape, like she really
if you look at where now in Elmouth is elmth whatever.
I mean, she really has no no weather options, right,
(24:20):
I mean unless she wants to go back through the
Parallels Road, and I mean, which I guess she could
have done, but at this point she has a kid,
and you know, I don't know.
Speaker 1 (24:30):
Well I think you know. Anyway, we talked about this
particular section a lot longer than you know than I
plan to you, quite honestly. But it's a really interesting
discussion now that I think about it, Like there's you know,
how do you how do you read this? And I
think living in a particular time that we live in,
with the sensitivities that we have, the cultural sensitivities that
(24:51):
we have, we can read this in a way that
maybe it wasn't quite intended to be.
Speaker 2 (24:56):
I think that way. I think that's fair.
Speaker 1 (24:58):
Yeah, I I'm not necessarily defending Ale because we find
out that Ale is not really, you know, this great guy, right,
I mean you tell you definitely is not this great
guy in the grand scheme of things. But uh, you know,
if I if I try to read it in terms
of how Tolkien intended it, I don't think it was
intended to make him sound like he was like, you know,
(25:20):
basically like kidnapped her and made her a sex slave.
Speaker 3 (25:24):
Right, Yeah, so this is you're just saying, this is
not Beauty and the Beast, because that's kind of the
flavor I'm getting. But except obviously it's like Beauty and
the Beast, but without the redeeming.
Speaker 1 (25:36):
Without like a tragic version of beauty.
Speaker 2 (25:38):
It's a tragic version of Beauty and the Beast.
Speaker 1 (25:40):
Okay, I'm just not as up on beating the Beast
as other people.
Speaker 2 (25:43):
That's basically what happens, right.
Speaker 3 (25:44):
She goes wandering in the woods and he catches, you know,
she she wanders into his castle, and he doesn't want
anybody to to, you know, to find him or his castle,
so he helds her hostage in the castle, right, And
she does come to love him so but still he
basically forces her to stay against her will, which I
(26:05):
don't know, that might be extreme. I mean, I don't know.
It just it just rubbed me the wrong way. Yeah,
and that just made me feel bad for Aerothyl because
that's not that's not what she wanted when she left Gondolin.
I can't imagine that's what she wanted.
Speaker 1 (26:21):
Yeah, Yeah, well, hey, so a lot of discussion on that.
Let us know what you think in the comments below
in this one, because I'm genuinely curious to see how
other people read this passage. I'm I'm conflicted on it,
as you can tell. So anyway, all right, moving on,
So through all of this, they have a child, and
(26:43):
the child's name is Maglin, right, So Maglin means sharp
glance in Noldoran. Actually she names him Loman and that
signifies child of the Twilight. And then he receives this
name from his father, Meglin, which is sharp glance.
Speaker 2 (26:58):
So they couldn't even agree on a name.
Speaker 3 (27:00):
Like, he goes and changes the name that Arthell gave him,
which I think is messed up.
Speaker 1 (27:07):
Well, well, that's it's an old door in name, right,
it's so it's forbid, it's a it's in a forbidden tongue.
Speaker 2 (27:12):
The forbidden. Yeah, but he could have used the Oh,
I see what you're saying, and he was. He did
not like then old door, right, right, I understand, And
it says.
Speaker 1 (27:21):
In her heart she gave him a name like she.
I don't think he knew that. I don't think he
knew that she had given him that name, right, says,
it does. She gave him a name in the forbidden
tongue of an old door.
Speaker 2 (27:31):
Yeah right, yeah, so.
Speaker 1 (27:36):
Yeah, so Meglin uh, you know, he grows up. It
says he was tall and black haired. His eyes were
dark yet bright and keen as the eyes of the
old door, and his skin was white. You know, he's
he's pretty much uh in face and form, he resembles
an old or right. So you know, that's interesting because
(27:57):
it also gives this kind of the description of what
an old or you know, physical description of what a
typical nulldor might have looked like. And then we learn
of uh uh. He learns of Gondolin from Rithol from
his mother, right. She tells him about this place where
she came from, and and he is just thinks it
(28:19):
sounds wonderful and he wants to go there. And he
tells his father that he wants to go there, and
Meglin is not happy about that idea. Yep, you are
the You are of the house of ale Megland, my son,
he said, and not of the Golothrim. All this land
is the land of the Tillari. And I will not deal,
nor have my son deal with the slayers of our kin,
the invaders and usurpers of our homes. In this you
(28:41):
shall obey me, or I will set you in bonds
and Meglan did not answer, but was cold and silent
and went abroad no more with Ale, and Ale mistrusted him.
So so yeah, uh he you know, Ale is not
about to, you know, allow them to leave and go
to Gondolin on this trip, but that doesn't stop Meglin
(29:04):
from proposing it to Audthl anyway. And what ends up
happening is they they make their journey.
Speaker 3 (29:10):
So they have to wait until well Ale has left
right to go to a feast.
Speaker 1 (29:15):
So it comes to happen that Ale has left to
go to a feast with the dwarves and and Adithel
and Meglin get a two day head start. They tell
they tell the servants that they're going to visit with
an old Or with the sons of fan Or, but
really they they go straight back to Gondolin from there.
(29:36):
But what does happen is Ale gets home finding out
they're gone, and he hears they've gone to see the
sons of fan Or, and so he decides to go
have a conversation with the sons of fan Or because
he's not happy about this, right, and so that leads
us to this very interesting, heated dialogue between one of
the sons of fan Or and Ale. This one of
the sons of fan Or we speak of is Kuafin
(29:58):
who is you know? I'd basically say this, This is
a conversation between two Ales. So won't you come on?
Speaker 2 (30:07):
That's very clever. Yes, yes, I would agree.
Speaker 1 (30:09):
I know. Still we can keep that clean rating, I'm
telling you, I said, Ale, Ale, Yeah, yep, all right,
all right, So Greta, uh, maybe we can read this
back and forth since it's a dialogue. All right, Well
it's not really there's like narration in it too, so
why don't you go and read it?
Speaker 3 (30:29):
Then, Coryffin said to Ale, what errand have you dark
elf in my lands?
Speaker 2 (30:34):
What at?
Speaker 3 (30:35):
An urgent matter? Perhaps that keeps one to sunshine abroad
by day?
Speaker 2 (30:41):
Yeah, that makes more sense.
Speaker 3 (30:43):
An urgent matter, perhaps that keeps one so sunshy abroad
by day. And Ale, knowing his peril, restrained the bitter
words that arose in his mind. I have learned, Lord Coruyffin.
He said that my son and my wife, the White
Lady of Gondolin, have written to visit you while I
was from home, and it seemed to me fitting that
I should join them on this Errand then Cooruffon laughed
(31:05):
at Aole, and he said, they might have found their
welcome here less warm than they hoped had you accompanied them.
But it is no matter, for that was not their
errand it is not two days since they passed over
the aras Arasiach Arosiach. And thence rode swiftly westward. It
seems that you would deceive me, unless indeed you yourself
(31:26):
have been deceived. And Aol answered, then, lord, perhaps you
will give me leave to go and discover the truth
of this matter. You have my leave, but not my love,
said Couruffin. The sooner you depart from my land, the
better will it please me. Then Eole mounted his horse, saying,
it is good, Lord Couruffin, to find a kinsman thus
kindly a need. I will remember it when I return.
(31:49):
Then Couraffin looked darkly upon Aole. Do not flaunt the
title of your wife before me, he said, For those
who steal the daughters of the Noldor and wed them
without gift or leave, do not gain kinship with their
kin I have given you leave to go take it
and be gone. By the laws of the elder, I
may not slay you at this time and this council,
I add, return now to your dwelling in the darkness
(32:11):
of non Elmouth, for my heart warns me that if
you now pursue those who love you no more, never
will you return thither.
Speaker 1 (32:20):
Yeah. So, uh, not a friendly conversation between those two.
We will. We will see quite a bit more of Courfin,
especially in the story of Baron, and Luthian.
Speaker 2 (32:31):
Agrees with me. Yeah, I mean I think he too
thinks it's messed up.
Speaker 1 (32:35):
Well, I mean, you know, he may agree with you,
but but I wouldn't be like, well, Couriffine agrees with me,
So yeah, right, a Corfin is not exactly the this
like moral paragon, which we find out later on. So yeah, well,
I think he probably agrees with you because he's going
to read whatever Ale did in the worst possible light. Now, no, again,
(32:59):
it's clear that at some point Arithel is there against
her will, right, And uh so you know I get that,
and I'm not I'm not trying to say aol is
like this guy who's just been totally wronged and like
the way he's presented. I'm just saying, like going back,
just going back to that argument real quick. All I'm saying.
All I'm saying, people, is what's the right way to
(33:21):
read that? How did Tolkien intend for that for us
to understand that initially? All right, That's all I'm asking.
Speaker 2 (33:26):
All right, it's a fair question.
Speaker 1 (33:27):
So okay, So yeah, basically we keep on hearing these
foreboding words that you know, hey, you know, something bad
is going to come of this if you try to
follow these people that don't love you anymore. But of course,
I mean aol, I mean, he's going to be he's
going to be really mad about this because not only
(33:48):
did they leave without asking him, but they lied to
him about where they were, about where they were going.
Speaker 2 (33:53):
But he set himself up for that.
Speaker 1 (33:54):
Well, I didn't say, I'm just saying he is going
to be like he is going to be there's no
way he's going back to no, no, right right him?
Right in terms of his character?
Speaker 2 (34:01):
Right, Yeah, exactly. Yeah.
Speaker 3 (34:04):
So I'm just really impressed that he was able to
catch them because he went like he basically went the
wrong way, right and then and they had a two
day head start and he's still caught up with them,
which is pretty crazy to me. I mean, was his
horse just like really fast or did he not stop
(34:26):
for pee breaks or.
Speaker 1 (34:27):
Like, well, there's two of them, and yeah, I mean,
if you're riding fast, you know, if you've got if
you've got anger and adrenaline on your side, then you know,
you might be riding a little faster, right.
Speaker 2 (34:37):
That's true.
Speaker 1 (34:38):
Yeah, So and he probably he probably learned that, you know,
he probably knew that there was no way that if
they got into Gondolin before he reached them, then there
was no way he was going to find them, right, Yeah,
then then they were lost.
Speaker 2 (34:51):
So he's probably wouldn't know the road, right, you know.
Speaker 1 (34:54):
I'm sure he figured out if he didn't know before
he met Rathel, I'm sure he he learned about Gondolin,
you know, and like this the deal with Gondolin from her.
I don't think she told him the hidden road or
anything like that, right anyway, But so he they arrive
and they're they're betrayed by their horses, right because the
(35:15):
horses neigh very loudly. And then Ale's horse hears ther,
here's those horses, and he finds them just in time
to follow them without them seeing him, right, so he's
able to follow them through. Then, by ill fate, they
were portrayed. For the horses made loudly, and Ale's steed
heard them and sped towards them. And Ale saw from
afar that white raiment of Atithel and marked which way
(35:37):
she went, seeking the secret path into the mountains. All right,
so they returned to Gondolin. Everyone is of course happy
to see Adithel after all this time, and h of course,
no one more so than tor Gone. And and he's
very he's very warm, you know, towards Maglin. He really
(35:59):
he sees mag and he's like, all right, well here's
a you know, true true son of you know, true
son of the knoldor right here, right, this is a
you know, this is a pleasant surprise, right.
Speaker 3 (36:10):
And and Turn himself has no heir, right because he
only has a daughter. So I'm sure he saw Maglin
and was like, oh.
Speaker 1 (36:18):
Well, and and actually you know this something we didn't
mention earlier. But when Maglin's first hears about he when
he when his mother first tells him about Gondolin, and
you know, kind of describes that situation, right, you know,
he learns like, Okay, he's like, you know this this
(36:39):
son of the king's sister, right, and the king has
no heir. Right, He's like, you know, it doesn't say directly,
but you could's like, you know, he's calculating, right, it's
it talks about him. He's kind, oh, I could be
the king of Gondolin maybe, Okay, yeah, all right, So
(37:00):
so that's all part of you know, his his desire
right to want to come back to Gondolin and and
to see it and to dwell there. And you know,
they know that once they're back, they're really probably is
not going to be any more leaving at that point.
But Aol does uh does show up as well, and
(37:22):
he's he's of course caught by the guards as he's
coming into Gondolin, uh, And they bring him before Torgon
and and they, you know, tor Goon basically gives him
the you know, basically gives him the what for.
Speaker 2 (37:37):
Is actually pretty nice to well, I would have been
that nice to he.
Speaker 1 (37:40):
Is, but he, you know, he does he gives them
a little bit of the what for. But but we'll
read this passage here. And so it was done, and
Ale was brought to Torgon's hall, and stood before his
high seat, proud and sullen. Though he was amazed no
less than his son. At all that he saw, his
heart was filled the more with anger and with hate
of an oldor. But Torgon treated him with honor, and
rose up and would take his hand, and he said, welcome, kinsman.
(38:02):
For so I hold you here. You shall dwell at
your pleasure, save only that you must here abide and
depart not from my kingdom. For it is my law
that none who finds the way hither shall depart. But
Ale withdrew his hand. I acknowledge not your law, he said.
No right have you or any of your can in
this land to seize realms or to set bounds, either
here or there. This is the land of the Tillary,
(38:24):
to which you bring war, and all in quiet dealing,
ever proudly and unjustly, I care nothing for your secrets.
Night can came not to spy upon you, but to
claim my own, my wife, and my son. Yet if
in Atathel your sister you have some claim, then let
her remain. Let the bird go back to the cage,
where soon she will sicken again, as she sickened before
but not so Meglin, my son, you shall not withhold
(38:46):
from me, Come Meglan, son of Ale, Your father commands
you leave the house of his enemies in the slayers
of his ken, or be accursed. But Meglin answered nothing.
Then Torgon sat in his high seat, holding the staff
of his staff of Denys, and in a stern voice, spoke,
I will not debate with you, dark elf, by the
swords of then old or alone? Are you are? Are
(39:07):
you are? Your sunless woods defended your freedom to wander there,
wild wild, you owe to my ken, and but for them,
long since you would have labored, enthralled them in the
pits of angband. And here I am king. And whether
you will it or will it not, my doom is law.
This choice only is given to you to abide here
or to die here. And so also for your son.
(39:29):
So you know, Ale, he he's not a team player, right,
He sees things a certain way, you know, And he's
a very I mean, he's just an interesting character in
that way, right, He's just this curmudgeonly kind of figure, right.
It doesn't you know, doesn't want a whole lot to
do with anybody else, wants to be left alone. In general.
(39:51):
That's why he lives deep in the woods. And you know,
he doesn't respect then old or he thinks that they are,
that they're they're unwelcome, that they brought trouble, and he's
not about to you know, be berated by this, you know,
and told he has to stay and be berated by this,
(40:11):
you know, by this king who he used as a pretender.
Right yep, uh, you know, someone unrightful. So what's Ale's
what's Ale going to do in this case? I mean
he's going to try He's going to try and kill somebody, right,
I mean, that's that's basically where he's at. I mean,
you know, you might argue that he could have you know,
(40:33):
he could have calculated or bied his time or something
like that, which Mageland seems to be doing. But Ale
is just he's not wired that way. And so Al
it turns out he's hiding he's been hiding a javelin
this whole time, poison tip javelin. He attempts to kill Maglin,
(40:54):
and Arathel throws herself in front of him and ends
up being the one that's wounded and mortally wounded. So
Al was responsible for the death of Meglin, which is
the I'm sorry for the death of Adothel, even though
he was trying to kill me. He was trying to
kill megln and responsible for the death of Adothel. Now
(41:14):
Arthel had had basically before she died, she'd said, you know, look,
just have mercy on him, right, you know, you know,
we don't need to put him to death or anything
like that. But then she dies and it's like, well
that's there goes that, right, Yeah, all bets are off
at this point. Therefore, when Ale was brought before Torgon,
he found no mercy, and they led him forth to
(41:36):
the cad a precipice of place, a precipice of black rock,
upon the north side of the hill of Gondolin, there
to cast him down from the sheer walls of the city.
And Meglin stood by and said nothing. But at the
last Ale cried out, so you forsake your father and
his kin, ill gotten son. Here shall you fail of
all your hopes, and here may you yet die the
(41:57):
same death as I. So meg Glynn doesn't speak up
for him, and they Ol basically curses him. Then they
cast Ale over the cartag door, and so he ended
into all and Gondolin it seemed just. But Idril was
troubled and from that day she mistrusted her kinsman, and
so I take it that to me. And she's troubled
by the fact that they put him to death, right
Is that how you understood that? Does she was troubled by,
(42:19):
uh by by the fact that they put you know,
basically gave a the death penalty.
Speaker 2 (42:24):
Yeah, that's how I read it too.
Speaker 1 (42:25):
I mean, yeah, it seems like that's that seems like
what it's saying right there.
Speaker 3 (42:28):
I think we failed to mention earlier that Idrill that
Mageland has.
Speaker 2 (42:32):
A thing for Drill.
Speaker 3 (42:34):
Yes, Andril is the daughter of Tehran, that's right, So
I mean they're technically cousins. Yeah, right, yeah, Dril does
not feel the same, right, But anyway.
Speaker 1 (42:45):
Well that's that's what Yeah. Well, and it kind of
says that that was the first half of that quote
of our quote of the week.
Speaker 2 (42:52):
Right, Yes, that it refers to you.
Speaker 1 (42:54):
Know what it refers to. But anyway, al Ale dies.
But Meglin, you know, really is he's kind of held
in high esteem in the court of Torgon and says
he's wise in counsel and wary and yet hearty and
valiant at need. Right, he takes part in some of
the great battles they're going to happen. So you know,
(43:16):
he is a he's quite quite an individual, even though
he's pretty quiet like his father. Right, he doesn't, he's
kind of an elf A few words, right, But yes,
he does have a He does have a thing for Idril. Right,
For from his first days in Gondolin he had borne
a grief, ever worsening that robbed him of all joy.
(43:37):
He loved the beauty of Idril and desired her without
hope the Eldar wedded, not with Ken so near, nor
ever before, had any desire to do so. First cousins,
and however that might be, Idril loved Meglin not at all,
and knowing his thought of her, she loved him the less,
for it seemed to her a strange thing and crooked
in him. As indeed the Eldar ever since have deemed
it an evil fruit of the kin slaying, whereby the
(43:58):
shadow of the curse of mind fell upon the last
hope of then Olldor. You know, so, pretty pretty adult,
pretty adult themed, pretty adult themes going on here, right,
you know? We we we talk about the controversy over
just you know, the controversy of Ale and his enchantment
(44:19):
of Atathel right to lead off the chapter. And then
we have you know, Meglin and his uh, you know,
his desire for you know, basically his first cousin. Right,
So it's interesting to see you know, this kind of
a how should we put it? Right? This like you know,
(44:41):
this this thing repeating itself right in the life of
in the life of Meglin that was you know, some
some kind of issue of his father's as well, right,
you know, you're just like, yeah, this is not going
to play out well, this is this is this is
not gonna end well. And you know that's essentially the
tragedy of this figure Meglin. And by the way, you know,
(45:04):
this is an interesting chapter to kind of be inserted
here into this sulm really, because you know, someone has
been jumping back and forth between chapters that are like
talking about like who rules what realm and maps and
you know, we had all several chapters where we were
talking about like the the noldor leaving vallenor and so
you know it's just kind of this some runs kind
(45:25):
of this roller coaster in this chapter, like well, what
does this chapter have to do with anything? Right, It's
just kind of the story of this dark elf and
it's just this sad story about like you know this
you know how he he enchanted this you know this
elf lady and you know they had a child together
and then he he killed her when he was trying
to kill his son because he was mad that they
wouldn't leave with him, right, And like, what does this
(45:49):
have to do with anything? Well, it's it's it's sowing
seeds for greater tragedies later because of what it's doing, right,
It's you know, it's this idea that like it really
is like that the Oath of Fan or the Curse
of Mandos, like all these things are going to manifest
and really, uh more and more tragic ways as the
(46:09):
rest of the story unfolds.
Speaker 2 (46:10):
It this seems pretty tragic to me.
Speaker 1 (46:12):
Well it is, it is, and you know, I mean
many tears to be shed over.
Speaker 2 (46:16):
This, yeah, yeah, there's are.
Speaker 1 (46:19):
Yeah, And and the truth is that Maglin is going
to play a big part in that, right, So all right? Yeah,
any final thoughts there, Greta.
Speaker 2 (46:31):
All right, good discussion.
Speaker 1 (46:33):
I think you got a haiku?
Speaker 2 (46:35):
Yeah, all right, are you in rock paper scissors.
Speaker 1 (46:38):
Rock paper scissors, shoot boom. First all right, dark Elf
of deep Woods, Lady of Hidden Haven, child of sharp Secrets.
Speaker 2 (46:51):
It's really good. I like that a lot. Well done.
All right, here's man.
Speaker 3 (47:00):
And that's why you don't marry sketchy yelves that live
in sunless forests.
Speaker 1 (47:08):
Mm hmmm nice. Yeah, spoken like the guy on Arrested Development.
Speaker 2 (47:14):
If only I had a mic drop.
Speaker 1 (47:16):
That's why you listen to your father, I'm saying, that's
why you don't yell.
Speaker 2 (47:24):
Yeah, all right, it's just nothing good could come of it,
you know, yeah, clearly nothing.
Speaker 1 (47:28):
To Okay, Well, all right, I'm just I'm curious to
know though, like, like what, what to you is the
distinction between single melion and uh like what because you
brought it up right melyon, but discuss this, okay. I
just kind of want to come back the final your
final word on it. I'm just I'm interested, okay.
Speaker 3 (47:48):
Well, first of all, melion not nearly as sketchy as ale.
Speaker 2 (47:54):
Okay, Okay, She's.
Speaker 1 (47:55):
Like the sketchiness factor has.
Speaker 3 (47:57):
Definitely a big arger sketchiness factor or here, and the
fact that the male was enchanting the female automatically makes
it more not okay for me, And I mean Melian
(48:17):
was gorgeous and so is Thingle, so I was totally
fine with that, you know. I mean I still feel
like and Thingle could have stood up for himself. I
think that's why I just feel and not, oh gosh,
I'm really need to careful about what I say here.
Not that Arithel could not have stood up for herself,
but I feel like if Thingle wanted to leave, it
would have been much easier for him to leave. I mean,
(48:39):
first of all, he was in a better part, Like
he was not in the same I guess they were
in the same forest, but still like he's he he,
he just would have had more of an ability to
get out of that situation than Arethel did, just given
the fact that she's a woman.
Speaker 1 (48:58):
Okay, all right, that's just me, all right, what I
just I think it's really I you know, I was
just kind of set on, like, yeah, Ale was being
a bad dude, and then we brought the meg we
brought the Dingle and melee on thing into it.
Speaker 3 (49:13):
How can we know because it's like it's obviously the
same thing but reversed a little bit.
Speaker 1 (49:19):
Well, No, That's all I'm saying is like, when we
brought that into the equation, I was like, okay, yeah,
what is the difference? Wait a minute, what's going Like?
How do we how do we you know, how do
we assess that? Right? And I was like, because because
we don't look at Thingle and melee On and say like,
how dare melee On? Right, It's like it's like, yeah,
like Thingle was like saw this like the most beautiful
(49:41):
of like all creatures he'd probably ever seen, right, and
was just completely enchanted with her, and she was enchanted
with him.
Speaker 2 (49:47):
Right, So maybe that's the thing. It was more consensual.
Speaker 3 (49:50):
I feel like between Thingle and meley On, this gives
me the air of not being consensual.
Speaker 2 (49:54):
Okay, Like there is more of a force, there's more
of a.
Speaker 1 (49:57):
I can see that. I can definitely see that, esecially
as time went on. You know. But but you know,
this is I think I thought it was a really
worthwhile conversation.
Speaker 2 (50:06):
So I completely agree.
Speaker 3 (50:08):
I completely agree, and I'm really interested to.
Speaker 2 (50:11):
Hear what our listeners think about Yes for sure.
Speaker 1 (50:13):
Yeah, so let us know in the comments below. All right, everybody,
Well that is all for this episode. Make sure and
hit us up with the correspondence and make sure and subscribe,
rate and review us on iTunes or the platform of
your choice. Right, leave us that five star rating, folks,
please do that. You know, our ratings are kind of
dipping down into the little four point five range, you know,
(50:37):
like we need some of our five star fans to
leave us some ratings over there, everybody, right, So too
many of them people out there who like, listen to
one episode and I you know, you know, Greta says
something weird and they're like like her. Actually they never
complained about her. The always complained about me, And I
understand why I tried. I've tried to get better as
time has gone on, everybody. But if you think I have,
(50:58):
please leave a five star rate.
Speaker 2 (51:00):
Yeah, yeah, please do.
Speaker 1 (51:02):
But you know, even I don't for any reason, just
Regret's sake, because it is awesome and she deserves five stars.
Speaker 2 (51:08):
Thanks.
Speaker 3 (51:09):
I was just gonna say, I don't know, maybe we're
doing something right if we got some naysayers leaving comments.
Speaker 1 (51:14):
I mean definitely, like one of the last ones was
like complaining about like you know, it was yeah, it
was some like, you know, complaint about how we're like
injecting Christianity into all this.
Speaker 2 (51:25):
We've heard that before.
Speaker 1 (51:26):
Oh well, I'm just like, oh, thank you. Let's talk
about that, right, Yeah, you know, I'll make another video
on that topic and you can watch it. There you go, right, yay,
all right, it's good.
Speaker 2 (51:36):
To ruffle some feathers now and.
Speaker 1 (51:37):
Then as long as you're uffling the right feathers.
Speaker 2 (51:40):
Yeah, yeah, that's fair.
Speaker 1 (51:42):
All right. Well, thank you to our amazing patrons, especially
the following. John R.
Speaker 3 (51:46):
Caitlin of t with Tolkien, Jacob Lockham, John H. Scotch, You,
Bobo mis Anonymous, Andrew T. Red Hawk, Shannoness, Bryan Emilio
p Zeke, James A. James L, Chris L. Chuck geff
av Ish of The Hammer, Teresa C.
Speaker 2 (51:58):
David of Pines with Jack, Nathan D, Eric Eric B,
Johanna T, Mike M, Robert H. Paul D, Julia Werti,
Matthew W.
Speaker 1 (52:06):
Joe bagel Man, Jacobs and Don Jay, as well as
those celebrating their patron anniversary. Oh well, this is May,
this is June now, and I don't have that list,
but our June anniversary patrons, we'll make sure we got
you next time. So yes, thank you. My bad all right, well,
thank you, thank you, thank you. Is bad bad all right?
Speaker 2 (52:28):
Thanks for listening to guys.
Speaker 1 (52:29):
Thanks for listening everybody. We will talk tout you next time.
Speaker 2 (52:31):
Bye bye
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