Silmarillion 2025 » Ch 17 » Of the Coming of Men Into the West

Our 2025 Silmarillion journey continues with Chapter 17 of Quenta Silmarillion - Of the Coming of Men Into the West.
In Chapter 17, we learn of the first Men to enter into Beleriand. Furthermore, we learn about the beginnings of their relationship with the Elves, and what the term Edain means. By the way, this is the last relatively calm chapter in The Silmarillion. The stage has been set, and a lot of adventure, war, and destruction is about to be unleashed.
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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hey there, fellow travelers. Our twenty twenty five Silm Merillion
journey continues with chapter seventeen of Quaintusummarillion of the Coming
of Men into the West. In chapter seventeen, we learn
of the first men to enter into BELLERIOND. Furthermore, we
learn about the beginnings of their relationship with the elves
and what the termidine means. By the way, this is
the last relatively calm chapter in the Silm Million. The

(00:21):
stage has been set and a lot of adventure, war
and destruction is about to be unleashed. Over the next
several months, will continue revisiting the entire thirty episode Silm
Million series that Greta and I recorded back in twenty
twenty two. While you're listening, check out Selmguide dot com.
That's Silmguide dot com for guides to individual chapters. You
can find that link in the show notes. To support

(00:44):
our work here, please visit Patreon dot com slash Tolkien
Road Enjoy. Hey there, fellow travelers, Welcome to the Tolkien Road.
Episode two ninety six. Greta, what's up?

Speaker 2 (00:56):
Hey you? What's that, ma'am?

Speaker 3 (00:57):
Not much, just trying to stay cool, you all right?
Trying to not melt in this heat wave.

Speaker 1 (01:02):
Yes, well, it's not gonna be a problem because you
might be able to hear the AC is on in
my studio. So because it's hot outside and if we
don't keep it on, we're gonna melt in here. I'll
record this thing because it'll get hot real quick. Yeah, anyway,
you don't care about that. Now, let's do this. In
this episode, we'll be discussing chapter seventeen of the Summer
Million of the Coming of Men into the West. Before

(01:25):
we get started, we'd like to give a double up
air five to our patrons. Let's do it. I'm talking
to you, patrons three two one boom. Nice special Thanks
to this episode's executive producers John R. Caitlin of Ta
with Tolkien, Jacob Lockham, John H and Scotchy Bobo. Dang,

(01:46):
thanks guys, thank you all so much.

Speaker 2 (01:48):
Awesome. We have so many executive producers.

Speaker 1 (01:51):
Fantastic, cool, fantastic fantastic fans, that's what they are.

Speaker 3 (01:56):
Ah huh, you're exactly right. I thought of that as
you were saying it. That was kind of trippy, smart,
very cool. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (02:03):
Become a patron by visiting patreon dot com slash Tolkien Road.
Doing so gets you cool perks like twenty percent off
of everything at trumthspress dot com. Plus your financial support
helps the Tolkien Road to keep on everring on. Learn
more at patreon dot com slash Tolkien Road. Hey YouTube,
hit that like button, don't forget subscribe and let us
know what's on your mind in the comments below. All right,

(02:28):
So our quote of the week comes from this chapter.
A darkness lies behind us, bare said, and we have
turned our backs upon it, and we do not desire
to return thither, even in thought. Westwards our hearts have
been turned, and we believe that there we shall find light.

Speaker 2 (02:46):
So it's a quote.

Speaker 1 (02:48):
Yeah, yeah, very very good quote. I had somebody somebody
on Twitter today. I posted that and their response was
Their response was me, when the Rings of Power is canceled? Right?

(03:15):
So that was uh. That was Matt Phantom Rider O
five replying to uh, darkness love, darkness lies behind us
and I and then I responded and said, uh, I said,
you know westward our hearts have turned. And that's when
Amazon buys the rights to the Selm million. So because
you know their hearts are turning westward?

Speaker 3 (03:37):
Anyway, Yes, cleverness.

Speaker 1 (03:43):
You know, it's it's just exploding with cleverness on Twitter today. Yes,
that's the kind of winty winny banter you're missing out
on if you don't follow me on Twitter. So on
the Tolkien road at least. All Right, So this chapter,
I Greta, you made the comment that that you found
this chapter kind of boring reading through it again this time,

(04:03):
and I can see why. I don't think it's the
most boring chapter. It's it's not as boring as like
the it's not as boring as say the chapter about
maps and stuff, right.

Speaker 3 (04:16):
No, I think that's I think that's true. Yeah, yeah, No,
there's a little bit more action.

Speaker 1 (04:22):
Okay, Yeah, Well, I think this is a like a
very important chapter, and I hope that I can help
our readers, our listeners make sense of it, especially if
they're reading for the first time. And you know, this
is one particular I'm not going to get way into
the every single detail on but it's more for me

(04:43):
about helping you understand break down all these new names,
because you know, Sommarian is already like new names every chapter,
and it's like keeping up with all these different characters
and then all of a sudden, this chapter is like
and here's fifty more characters to keep track.

Speaker 3 (04:57):
Yeah, right, yep, so and like thirty of them are
in introduced in one paragraph, right, and you're like, what's
going on?

Speaker 1 (05:04):
Yeah? You know.

Speaker 3 (05:04):
It's funny because I was thinking recently, as I was,
you know, reading to Silmarillion for the second time, It's like, wow,
this is like this is so much easier the second
time through. This is like I'm really enjoying this. And
then I get to this chapter today and I'm like,
oh my gosh, this is so hard.

Speaker 1 (05:23):
Yeah. Yeah, it's uh, you know, I guess that some
of these things feel like they could have benefited a lot.
You know. It's we've talked about this in the past,
and as much as I love the silm Million that
we have, uh, you know, it was not the finished
product that Tolkien probably would have wanted to publish.

Speaker 3 (05:44):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (05:45):
Yeah, And you know, Christopher, we talk about this in
other episodes, but Christopher had to spend a good amount
of time after his father's death kind of compiling this
into something that he felt was publishable and that and
then he felt like he hadn't even done a good
enough job and so he spent the rest of his
life publishing everything is almost everything his father ever wrote, right,

(06:07):
so that he could kind of explain like where his
own attempt at the Silm Million had failed. Right. But anyway,
you know, I think he did a pretty great job
all things considered. It's too bad we didn't get Tolkien's own,
like final version of this during his lifetime, because maybe
he would have looked at this with an editor and
been like, yeah, I can probably do a better job

(06:27):
of making this more interesting, right. But the bottom line is,
at the same time, I feel like when you get
a grip, it's like the rest of the Chat, It's
like the rest of the Selm Million. When you get
a grip on these things, it can be really engrossing
in the sense of like you start to understand how
it all comes together.

Speaker 3 (06:44):
Now.

Speaker 1 (06:45):
I know it's not a riveting story, right, I know
it's not a page turner in that way, but it
has its own value. And I'm always, I'm continually amazed
by Tolkien's ability to pack so much meaning and significance
and and just fascinating detail into every single paragraph that

(07:08):
he writes. You know, and it's not necessary chapters like
this aren't for everybody, but they are. They are helpful
to spend a little time and a little extra time on.
So yeah, anyway, well let's dive in. Let's dive into
chapter seven. I mean that my quote of the week there,
I thought, I just I love I love this sense

(07:28):
of like the men, these men wandering into this region
like drawn by the light of the west, like the
elves were thousands of years before, right, and and it's
almost like they're kind of repeating, repeating history. And I
love the interactions of like particularly of Fenrod, with the
you know, with these men, and then the idea that

(07:49):
there are some of that these men know that there's
this darkness that lies behind us, that you have mortal
and immortal. They they look very much alike, and they're like,
we're almost like the same people. But then they like,
but you die, you just die from age, and that's
like what like the elves are just like what yeah,
you know, yeah, you know. It's like it's like they're looking,

(08:11):
you know, they're like peering in a you know, through
the looking glass, right, like in a mirror and looking
at a like a you know, a weaker version of themselves,
right for the elves, right, so it has to be
it has to be very jarring, a jarring, very jarring
experience for the elves. But anyway, anyway, let's let's talk

(08:31):
some about this chapter. So in chapter seventeen, we learn
of how the first men came into Balarion, of their
interactions with the elves already living there, and of Melcor's
response to their coming. And then, as with each episode
in this series, we won't be covering every detail of
this chapter, but instead doing our best to hit the
high points and unpack interesting and important details. And if
we miss something, you guys want to discuss more, let

(08:53):
us know timeline. So from the volume eleven of the
History of Middle Earth, we learned that this is this
this takes place between the years four hundred and four
fifty of the years of the Sun. Right, so some
men first you know, really cross over the mountains in

(09:13):
the year four hundred, okay, the Blue mountains they are
Lewin and enter into Balarion. And so that's when Fenrod
has his interactions. And I believe, I don't have it
right in front of me, but I leave I believe
for fifty is the year that byor uh that bayor dies, right,
which is at the end of this chapter, right, which
can you imagine as an elf like you've been alive

(09:35):
for thousands of years, you know, an elf like Fenrod
been alive for thousands of years, and then you've met
you met this guy fifty years ago, which for you
seems like you know earlier this year, right, and then
he dies? Right? Yeah, I mean.

Speaker 2 (09:53):
Your body feels a little jipped.

Speaker 1 (09:54):
I I, well, you know, it's like I have had
a couple of experience like, well, I I can definitely
say one definite experience where somebody I didn't get to
know somebody until right before, like really get to know
them until right before they died. And I sometimes think
about that individual and I'm like, man, I really wish

(10:16):
and of course I wish he hadn't died, but it's
kind of like, I really wish he hadn't died because, like,
you know, I feel like there was a potential for
a very strong friendship there, you know, and just liked
a lot of things about this person's spirit and character
and you know, and I mean, you know, at the
end of the day, any of us can say that

(10:36):
about people we've lost, right, you know, even if we've
known them for a long long time in the grand
scheme of a human life, right, we can still look
and say like, I mean, you died too soon, right,
you died too soon. So anyway, this whole dichotomy of
just men, I will say, I think at this point

(10:58):
and at some point I really knew to flesh out
my reasons that I'm so bummed by the timeline compression
thing and the rings of power, I need to give
like ten reasons, make do a video on that or
something like that. But I just I this, to me,
the theme of mortality and immortality like meeting right, and

(11:23):
you know that, to me is one of the most
powerful themes in all of the Middle Earth legendarium, and
the timeline compression harms that I feel. I feel now
we'll see. I mean, you know, it may be that
it's not that it ends up not being significant on
that theme. There could be ways that they do it
that make it not significant or less significant. But even so,

(11:46):
I just have a hard time seeing how they pull
that off. And to me, it's like if you could
have emphasized that rather than de emphasizing it and worrying
that you'd have to kill off certain men, you know,
maybe in individual episodes or across seasons, like would that
have been the end of the world? Like that's the
that's the theme, right, that's the theme anyway? All right, well.

Speaker 2 (12:09):
Soapbox, Yeah, I was going to tell you to get off.

Speaker 1 (12:13):
Hey, look this is my podcast and I can talk
about these things. It's relevant.

Speaker 2 (12:19):
It is absolutely You're absolutely right.

Speaker 1 (12:22):
So anyway, all right, So Fennrod. Chapter starts off with
Finnrod meeting Bayor and his people. Eventually we move on
and learn about other men, uh and specifically two other houses.
We find out that Thingle and many of the green
Elves are not really fans of these newcomers. Thingle not

(12:44):
very surprising because he doesn't seem to be a fan
of any newcomers. We learn about various dissensions among men,
some of these are very interesting, right, And and then
we learn about more Goth's attack upon the House of
Holleth and how Kar and the are one of the
suns of fan Or comes to their aid. And finally
we kind of contend a little bit with the doom

(13:05):
of men. Right, So, Greta one of the things that
struck me, well, you know what, let's let's go ahead
and read this this. You know, these couple of paragraphs
right here that have to do with Fenrod meeting meeting men.
So essentially, Fenrod goes out on a ride and he's
riding along in BEALERIOND and towards the you know, the

(13:27):
east of Bellerion, and he hears singing and he creeps
up and he finds these people and he's like, who
are they? So let's read a little bit about their interactions.
So do you want to start here and go to
here and then I'll do this paragraph and then maybe
you can down.

Speaker 3 (13:43):
Then Felagund, standing silent in the night shadow of the trees,
looked down into the camp, and there he beheld a
strange people. Now these were a part of the kindred
and following if bay Or the old as was afterwards
called a chieftain among them. After many lives of wandering
out of the east, he had led them at last
over the Blue mountains, the first of the race of

(14:03):
men to enter Belleriant. And they sang because they were
glad and believed that they had escaped from all perils
and had come at last to the land without fear.

Speaker 1 (14:13):
Long Feligun watched them and love for them stirred in
his heart, but he remained hidden in the trees until
they had fallen. They had all fallen asleep. Then he
went among the sleeping people and sat beside their dying fire,
where none kept watch, And he took up a rude harp,
which Baior had laid aside, and he played music upon it,
such as the ears of men had not heard, for

(14:34):
they had as yet no teachers in the art, save
only the dark elves in the wild lands.

Speaker 3 (14:39):
Now men awoke and listened to Feligan as he harped
and sang, and each thought that he was in some
fair dream, until he saw that his fellows were awake
also beside him, But they did not speak or stir,
while Feligun still played. Because of the beauty of the
music and the wonder of the song, wisdom was in
the words of the elving king, and the hearts grew
wiser that hearkened to him, for the things of what

(15:01):
she sang, the making of Arda and the bliss of
a mom beyond the shadow of the sea, came as
clear visions before their eyes, and his Elvish speech was
interpreted in each mind according to its measure, so.

Speaker 1 (15:15):
A few things I want to highlight with this. First
of all, I think it's really interesting there's this parallel,
the parallel between Orme discovering the elves many, you know,
many thousands of years before, and Finrod discovering men. Right.
Orme riding along into the east discovers the elves, these

(15:39):
strange people, right. Finrod riding along into the east discovers
these strange people, right. So I love this idea that
they're both like, you know, they're both like just out
for a ride doing what they do, and they just
stumble upon upon these people, Okay. And then Fenrod of
course was inspired to create Nargathrond by Olmo, by the

(16:04):
you know, by by this kind of falling into the
sleep and hearing this kind of music of Almo, right,
being inspired with these dreams by Almo. And here we
have Finnrod doing the same with these men that he meets, right,
inspiring them with the dreams of this far off land. Right.
So I and I just have to say, like I

(16:25):
didn't the last the last time we read through, I
in this reading, my my, I have developed a deep
appreciation in love for Finnrod increasingly, so I'm just like
he's one of the he's one of the best elves,
and you know, and I just I love this his

(16:47):
interaction here with these men and his his attitude towards them,
because not every potential discovery I think it was. I
think it was I think it was uh lucky or
providential that he was the one that discovered them right
and spent time with him, because I could see if
it was like you know, Kurafen or somebody like that,

(17:10):
it would have been ugly or one of like Fingal's men, right,
could have been ugly. Right, they would have like summoned
an army to go and drive these people out. Right.

Speaker 3 (17:17):
Yeah, I wonder what it was about them though, that
that intrigued them, because they weren't really doing anything.

Speaker 2 (17:23):
Yeah, I mean, they were just a sleep.

Speaker 3 (17:26):
So it's not like he happened upon them and heard
their speech or you know, saw them.

Speaker 1 (17:31):
Well, you knew they were singing. He knew they were singing.

Speaker 3 (17:34):
He heard them singing, that's true. He did hear them singing,
that's true. But he didn't see them right the first
time he sees them.

Speaker 2 (17:41):
They're asleep.

Speaker 3 (17:44):
So it's I just wonder, like, what what was it
about them?

Speaker 2 (17:47):
That really intrigued him.

Speaker 3 (17:49):
And it's really like, I'm not looking for an answer,
it's just more of something to think about.

Speaker 2 (17:53):
I guess it's.

Speaker 1 (17:54):
Almost like maybe it could have been just like almost
like an like discovering a bunch of children who were
like like wandering, right, almost having like this this attitude
like like first of all, seeing them peaceful and you know,
having heard them sleep, you know, singing before hearing them,

(18:16):
like seeing them in this peaceful state. And I'm sure
there's some element of like of pity in there as well, right,
you know, like wondering what's brought them, you know, to
this place, like who they are? And and I think
that I think just that Finrod immediately like kind of
loved them, Yeah, is a is one of the reasons
why I really like Fennrod, Right, that his attitude was

(18:39):
not like who are these creeps? Like what do they do?
What do they think they're doing here? But his attitude
was to love them and treat them kindly, right, yeah,
I mean, just like to just sing them the music
of valinor right.

Speaker 3 (18:53):
And maybe it was just kind of intuitive on his
part that they were in a sense kindred, right, I mean,
they were all children of Luvitars, just that they were,
you know, the second born, not the first. So you know,
I'm sure that maybe was recognizable to him in some
way too.

Speaker 1 (19:11):
Absolutely, so we learned that this is the uh, this
is Beyor, and the followers of Beyor. Beyor is is
their chieftain. And Fenrod is able to eventually communicate with
Beyor and learns, uh, learns a little bit about the

(19:31):
you know, the where who they are and where they
came from. So let's read these two paragraphs here, all right,
So I'll start off here. It was not long therefore,
before Feligun could hold converse with Beyor. And while he
dwelt with them, they spoke much together. But when he
questioned him concerning the arising of men and their journeys,

(19:51):
Beyor would say little. And indeed he knew little, for
the fathers of his people had told few tales of
their past, and as silence had fallen upon their memory,
A darkness lies behind us, there, said, and we have
turned our backs upon it, and we do not desire
to return thither. Even in thought westward our hearts have
been turned, and we believe that there we shall find light.

Speaker 3 (20:11):
But it was said afterwards among the Eldar, that when
men awoke in Hildurian at the rising of the sun,
the spies of Morgoth were watchful, and tidings were soon
brought to him. And this seemed to him so great
a matter, that secretly, under the shadow, he himself departed
from Mband and went forth into Middle Earth, leaving Tsaaron
the command of the war of his dealings with men.

(20:33):
The Eldar indeed knew nothing at that time, and learnt
but little afterwards, but that a darkness, But that a
darkness lay upon the hearts of men, as the shadow
of the kins slaying, and the doom of Mondos lay
upon then oldor they perceived clearly even in the people
of the elf friends, whom they first knew. To corrupt
or destroy whatsoever arose new and fair, was ever the

(20:56):
chief desire of Morgoth. And doubtless he had this purpose
also in his errand by fear and lies, to make
men the foes of the yeld R and bring them
up out of the east against Belariand.

Speaker 1 (21:11):
Yeah, so we learned that this darkness lies behind them,
And we don't get much detail on that, because they
don't want to talk about it. They just want to
go west. And you know, I mean, I you know,
we can all probably understand, you know, people not wanting
to talk about some some dark thing from your past,
right and preferring to focus on the future. That's like

(21:31):
kind of psychologically healthy not to dwell upon, you know,
the whatever it is in your past that you'd rather
not dwell upon. Yeah, And that's you know, so that's
we can understand where they're coming from. I will say
that there there is some really interesting material in volume

(21:52):
ten of the History of Middle Earth concerning and it's
it's part of the Authrobeth Fenrada Andreth chapter, and they're
there's kind of a section in there towards the end
of it where it basically describes what melcor did amongst
the first men, right and essentially, and this is Tolkien writing,

(22:14):
you know, writing much after Lord of the Rings, and
basically basically what he describes is that Melcoor came among
these men and presented himself as he did this thing
where he tells them that Illubatar is not their friend, right,
that the Valor you know, and Allubitar are not their friends,

(22:37):
but that he's really their friend, right And they need
to trust him instead, right. So you know, really I
think what we have here is, you know, is very
similar to you know, I won't say very similar, it's
not very similar, but we have overlap in terms of
theme with you know, like with the fall of Man
in the Book of Genesis. Right, just this idea that

(22:59):
they're the first men are deceived, right, are deceived by
by this evil figure into uh, into not trusting their maker, right,
into not trusting their maker. So you know, it's there
from the very beginning in this chapter, and it's you know,
in Tolkien's mind it was enough a part of Man's

(23:20):
story that he would include it in his own legendarium
something like it in his own legendarium.

Speaker 3 (23:25):
Uh.

Speaker 1 (23:26):
But at some point, you know, that's we're gonna do
a you know, a little mini series on author Beth
Finrada Andreath because there's just some really fascinating and beautiful
writing in there, and this is that's a particularly interesting story.
So and your thoughts on this particular section there, Greta,

(23:48):
all right, all right, all right, Well, now we're gonna
move on and we're gonna look at we're gonna learn
about the other houses. So basically, Basically, I'm gonna kind
of summarize all of this by saying, you kind of
need to spend some time with the tables in the
back of the book, all right, and if you're watching
us on YouTube, right, you're gonna get to see some

(24:12):
of this. So there's our map of Balarion. Here is
our table of Beyor. Right, so that's Beyor. This is
the house of Beyor, and we see here the descent
of uh, you know, kind of his family tree that
comes after him. Right, Beayor is one of the three

(24:33):
houses of the Adine. Right, the Adine are the elf friends, right,
that is there. The name given to them, Atani is
kind of the the is I believe the Quinya name
for them, Adine is. I believe I believe the Sindarin
name for them, maybe the no old or name, but
I believe it's a Sindaran name. And and we can

(24:55):
see that Adine Atani is not they're not very you know.
And see how they're kind of the same word, right,
or at least similar words. So we have bor right,
the house of Bayor, and then we also have the
house of Halith or the Haladin and the house of Hador,

(25:17):
which is this uh led by this figure of Marak. Right,
so we have Halmier over here, who is of the Haladin,
and we have Harak over here, and we see how
you know these these uh, these family trees cross paths
as well. You know, these are the three These are
the three houses of the Adyne. And the Adyne are

(25:38):
the men who who become friends with the elves and
help them in their battle against Morgoth. And eventually they
become the Dunodyne, right, as we would know from Lord
of the Rings, the men of the West okay, and
the Dunodyne are the name given to those who uh,
these men who will because of their aiding the enemies

(26:03):
of Morgoth, the elves in the in this in their
struggle against more Goth, they are going to be rewarded
with the island of numanor right, and that's how you know,
that's how the new Menorians come about in the second age.
So so yeah, you know, and these tables will be

(26:23):
your friends if you're trying to keep track of different
you know, the names of different characters. I mean, I
will say that there's only a few characters on here
that I feel like are really super important right, let's
go to the bay or table. All right, So Baron,
bar Here and Baron are fairly important characters. Baron very important,
bar Here somewhat important. We have and I'm just gonna

(26:48):
mention that the the men as in the Atani, we
have Whoor and then his son tour and and then
we have Arendil, and we have el Rond and el Rose. Okay,
we also have Whorin and Morwyn and then Turin, Turin,

(27:08):
bar and Neonor right, so you know those are the
important ones there on this tree. We have who Or
and Whorin, and then we have Turin and Neonor there,
so we see how they kind of cross over there.
We also see who are in over here and who
are over here, So you know, you can see that

(27:29):
a lot of this is just how these family trees overlap.
But the basic takeaway you need to have is just
that there are three houses. There are three of these houses,
three groups of men, and uh, these are the men,
and these aren't the only men, but these are the
men that come over into Bellarion, and they befriend the
elves of Bealarion, right, and that's why they're important. There's

(27:49):
lots of other men that didn't come over, and there's
other men who uh come over in order to fight
right against on the side of mor Goth right.

Speaker 2 (28:00):
Are specifically with the elf friends. Yes, yeah, the friends
of the.

Speaker 1 (28:03):
Elves exactly all right, So next we find out that
Thingle is not really a friend of these men. Now
let me let me make one more point. We learn
also that that Finnrod and other elves help men, help

(28:23):
these men settle into different areas in bealarions, right, And
a lot of these men, a lot of the great
the greatest of these men, spend time amongst the elves,
significant time amongst the elves in their houses, fighting with them,
learning their skills, learning their arts, all these things, so
that you know they they really like kind of lifted
up big time, right, it is compared to other men. Okay,

(28:49):
So Thingle not a fan, not a fan as as
we might expect. So, Greta, do you want to read
this paragraph?

Speaker 3 (28:56):
Here it is said that in all these matters, none,
say none save Fenrod Feligand took counsel with King Thingle,
and he was ill pleased, both for that reason and
because he was troubled by dreams concerning the coming of men.
Ere ever, the first tidings of them were heard. Therefore
he commanded that men should take no lands to dwell in,

(29:17):
save in the north, and that the princes whom they
served should be should be answerable for all that they did.
And he said, into Doriath, shall no man come, while
my real realm lasts, not even those of the house
of Beor, who Sir Finrod, the beloved Melion said nothing
to him at that time, But afterwards she said to Galadriel,

(29:38):
Now the world runs on swiftly to great tidings, and
one of men, even of Beor's house, shall indeed come,
and the girdle of Melion shall not restrain him, for
doom greater than my power shall send him. And the
songs that shall spring from that coming shall endure when
all Middle Earth is changed.

Speaker 1 (29:57):
So Thingle not a fan but Melion, and typical Emelion
fashion is like here you you know you're going to
do this, but men are going There's going to be
certain men that are going to play a big role, right,
and in the history of this kingdom in particular, right
and in the greater you know, in greater Valerian and

(30:19):
Thingles you know, thinking to himself all the time is
like here you go again, all right, trying to tell
me how what I'm gonna do is gonna is? You know,
I'm just gonna I have another thing coming, right.

Speaker 2 (30:31):
She didn't actually tell him, though, she told Galadriel.

Speaker 1 (30:33):
Yeah, well that's true.

Speaker 3 (30:35):
Okay, fair enough, but but that's what But you're right,
that's exactly right.

Speaker 2 (30:39):
You know, that's just how she rolls.

Speaker 3 (30:42):
And you think Thingle would you think Dingle would would
be more receptive to her counsel, like you think you
think he would actually ask her about these kinds of
things before he makes a decision, just given her track
record and the fact that she's a Mayer.

Speaker 2 (30:59):
But never it's Thingle, Yeah, thin goal is Uh.

Speaker 1 (31:03):
He's stubborn.

Speaker 2 (31:04):
He's stubborn.

Speaker 1 (31:05):
All right. Next, we're gonna learn about some dissensions among men, okay,
and you know they come into they come into the West,
and the idea here is that they were led into
the West. You know, you can kind of think about
like these kind of survival scenarios and it's like, well
where do we go? Right, Well, let's go into the west,
because we've heard these stories about you know, about the

(31:30):
lords of the west and you know that this is
this like paradise and maybe we can go there, right,
maybe we can go there.

Speaker 3 (31:38):
I'm just trying to think, like what are they fleeing from,
Like is it just darkness or I mean had more
Goth gotten that far east or yes, like well.

Speaker 1 (31:47):
More Goth had come to them, right initially, like you know,
in the very early part of it, when men first awoke,
when men first awoke and had you know, first of all,
he he convinced them not to follow a lubatar, right,
and that caused problems in and of itself, and you know,
whatever it is, you know, we can just attribute it

(32:07):
to a you know, they're fleeing darkness and it could
just be the darkness of the world. All all of
these you know, beasts could be.

Speaker 3 (32:15):
Just kind of uncivilized, like unchartered territory.

Speaker 1 (32:20):
I mean, there could be Orcs in that part of
the world that that more Goth has unleashed, right, So they're.

Speaker 3 (32:24):
Just not settled, like they're they're not settled lands and
there's a lot of unknowns that come with that.

Speaker 1 (32:28):
And they're hoping to find you know, paradise, right, Yeah,
I mean that's like, let's think, well, and that's I mean.
You think about how much of history is driven by
those kinds of movements, of people looking for some kind
of promised land, right, searching for some land of their own,
some home of their own, someplace that's better. So many

(32:51):
stories you know of history center around that idea.

Speaker 3 (32:55):
So I will say this section that we're about to
talk this is where it kind of started to go
off the rails for me. Okay, I didn't quite understand
all that was going on. Okay, well, I'm excited to
talk about it.

Speaker 1 (33:08):
Let's talk about it. Maybe that's going to go through
it one paragraph at a time, all right. The leaders
of the discontent were Bareg of the house of Bayor
and Omlac, one of the grandsons of Mark, and they
said openly, we took long roads, desiring to escape the
perils of Middle Earth and the dark things that dwell there.
For we heard that there was light in the west,
But now we learn that the light is beyond the sea.

(33:28):
Thither we cannot come where the gods dwell and bliss
save one. For the Lord of the Dark is here
before us, and the eld are wise, but fell who
make endless war upon him. And the north he dwells,
they say, and there is the pain and death from
which we fled. We will not go that way. So
they're like, we can't get over the sea to go
where we wanted to go. And so now we're faced

(33:50):
with at least one of the valor, and he's the
one that wants that's doing all this bad stuff and
wants to kill us. So you basically let us like
over here to get stuck over here and be much
closer to the guy that has it out for us. Right,
So that's that's where that's where Bareg and Omlock are
coming from. Right, they're like, why why did we come here? Right?

(34:12):
So we it was it was almost like it was
a trap.

Speaker 2 (34:15):
Right who led them out?

Speaker 3 (34:17):
Though, like I thought it was their own decision to come.

Speaker 1 (34:20):
It was the decision, you know, think about how these
things work. Right, You have a big group of people
and they're like, you know, maybe they maybe they're like, okay,
we appoint bay Or and he's gonna he's gonna lead us, right,
and not everybody may agree with that, but they you know,
maybe they've maybe they voted or whatever they made him
the leader, and they're like, all right, we're gonna follow, right,
What choice do we have? We can go or we

(34:42):
can stay here and try to defend ourselves, but we're
just gonna get killed, you know, you know, it's it's
it's one of these I'm trying to think of a
of a like a good example of this kind of thing.

Speaker 2 (34:54):
I guess we're I.

Speaker 1 (34:55):
Well, think all right, think about this. Think about this Israelites, right,
they leave, they leave Egypt, right, and they're in the
desert for forty years, and of course there's all these
instances of the Israelites complaining to Moses being like we
should just be I wish we were back in Egypt, right,

(35:15):
I mean, yeah, we were slaves there, but at least,
you know, at least we you know, we were sitting
We weren't living in the desert for crying out loud
and like, you know, worrying about where our food is
going to come from every day. Right. It's it's that
kind of it's that kind of like dynamic, that mentality
of like I thought you promised us a promised land, right,
I don't see a promise land. I just see a
bunch of desert.

Speaker 3 (35:35):
Yeah, right, Okay, so they're not really pointing the finger
at anybody. They're just mad that that they didn't get
what they thought they came for.

Speaker 1 (35:43):
Well, somebody's always gonna get the finger pointed at him
for this kind.

Speaker 2 (35:45):
Of thing, and that they're pointing the.

Speaker 1 (35:49):
Yeah, they or is who I'd say most.

Speaker 2 (35:52):
Likely Okay, So basically saying we came all this way
for nothing.

Speaker 1 (35:55):
Yeah, and it's or for a worse situation, for a situation,
but even it's not. Maybe they're just trying to convince
others that this was a bad idea and that they
should go back or something. Right, Yeah, let's move on.
Then a council and assembly of men was called, and
great numbers came together, and the elf friends answered betterk saying,
truly from the dark King come all the evils from
which we fled, But he seeks dimnon over all Middle Earth,

(36:16):
And whither or now shall we turn? And he will
not pursue us unless he be vanquished here, or at
least held in Leger only by the valor of the Eldar,
as he restrained. And maybe it was for this purpose
to aid them at need, that we were brought into
the land. So people respond to their complaints. Some men
respond to their complaints and say, look, More Goth is
threatening all of Middle Earth, not just this land. He's

(36:38):
threatening all of Middle Earth. So maybe we came here
so that we could help the elves like do battle
with more Goths, right to free the entire world from
more Goth.

Speaker 3 (36:48):
Right.

Speaker 1 (36:48):
So, you know, they look at it and they're like, Okay,
we were drawn over here thinking we were going into paradise.
It turns out we're not. But but is it really
the right thing to turn back? Because where are we
going to go? Right, We're just going to go back
to somewhere. We're going to be weaker.

Speaker 2 (37:00):
Right, exactly.

Speaker 3 (37:01):
At least here you have the help of the elves,
right that they can work together, they can become allies
against the evil.

Speaker 2 (37:08):
They're not on their own.

Speaker 1 (37:09):
Anymore, exactly. Yeah. The next paragraph to this, bareg answered,
let the Eldar look to it. Our lives are short enough.
But there arose one who seemed to all to be
Omlac's son of Imlac, speaking fell words that shook the
hearts of all who hurt him. All this is but
Elvish lord tales to beguile newcomers that are unwary. The
sea has no shore. There is no light in the west.

(37:31):
You have followed a fool fire of the elves to
the end of the world. Which of you has seen
the least of the gods, who has beheld the dark
King of the North. Those who seek the diminut of
Middle Earth are the Eldar, greedy for wealth. They have
delved in the earth for its secrets, and have stirred
to wrath the things that dwell beneath it, as they
have ever done, and ever shall. Let the Orcs have
the realm that is theirs, and we will have ours.

(37:51):
There is room in the world if the Eldar will
let us be. So he's kind of a buzzcoll well,
all right, So I mean basically he's he's making this
kind of like I mean, I would call it like
a an atheistic argument, right, you know, he's essentially saying,
like I love the line the sea has no shore, right,

(38:15):
Like I get like he's saying just this, you know,
he's saying this fact of like you know, or he's
trying to communicate this thing of like you know, there
there is no land on the other side. But there's
just something about that line that just feels utterly despairing,
and it just it just seems meant to like communicate
the deepest despair.

Speaker 3 (38:34):
Right when you just think about like an endless sea.
Yeah right, I mean there's just like it's hopeless.

Speaker 1 (38:39):
You're surrounded by emptiness. Yeah, yeah, there's no use resisting, right, yeah, all,
it's just like it's the epitome. It's like it's like
how an ancient person would describe a nihilistic outlook. Right,
there's no hope, there is no like all you can
hope for is is to live the best of your short,

(39:01):
pitiful life right now that you can right now. I
don't know if you picked up on this. Let's move
on another paragraph. Then those that listened sat for a while, astounded,
and a shadow of fear fell on their hearts, and
they resolved to depart far from the lands of the Eldar.
But afterwards, Omlac returned among them and denied that he
had been present at their debate or had spoken such

(39:23):
words as they reported, And there was doubt and bewilderment
among men. Then the eld friend said, you will now
believe this. At least there is indeed a dark lord
and his spies and emissaries are among us, for he
fears us and the strength that we may give to
his foes. So did you pick up on that?

Speaker 3 (39:39):
I did, And I remember when I read it, I
was like, well, that's weird. What was he like drunk
or something like he doesn't remember being there. But now
that we reread it, I'm like, oh my gosh, he
was possessed, wasn't he?

Speaker 1 (39:53):
Well that no, go back up. But there arose one
who seemed to all to be Omlock's son of them.

Speaker 3 (39:58):
Lives, so it was actionually him more Goth took on
the personhood of Lock or one of Okay, okay, yeah,
so it wasn't actually Omlock.

Speaker 2 (40:11):
Yeah, it was Ow.

Speaker 1 (40:14):
Came among them to s these to sow these lies.

Speaker 3 (40:16):
Right, Ah, wow, that's crazy, that's really crazy.

Speaker 2 (40:21):
So he, yeah, he was.

Speaker 3 (40:23):
It's like worse than possision, actually, like someone took your
for It's like identity theft in the worst possible way.

Speaker 1 (40:31):
Well, and I mean, what's he doing? I just you know,
he's he's among them to sow this existential despair. Right,
there's no use, Like the sea has no I mean,
just give me chills. The sea has no shore.

Speaker 3 (40:46):
Right, there's no light in the west. You have followed
a full fire with the elves to the end of
the world. That that this is it, like there's nothing else, right, Yeah,
it's a very depressing outlook.

Speaker 1 (41:01):
Yeah. Yeah. Well, and it's meant to crush their spirit.
It is meant to crush, to crush the greatness that
lies the in seed form inside of these men, right,
because Morgoth knows that that they're going to bring trouble
to him, to his designs. Right.

Speaker 3 (41:18):
And it worked for a minute, right, It says a
shadow of fear fell on their hearts. I mean, how
could it not. That's like, yeah, scary stuff.

Speaker 1 (41:29):
So final paragraph I want to read for this one.
But still some still answer he hates us rather, And
ever the more the longer we dwell here, meddling in
his quarrel with the kings of the Eldar, to no
gain of ours. Many therefore, of those that yet remained
in Estolade made ready to depart, and barek led a
thousand of the people of bayor away southwards, and they

(41:52):
passed out of the songs of those days. But I'm
Locke repented, saying I have now a quarrel of my
own with this master of lies which will last to
my life of sind And he went away north and
entered the service of Medros. But those of his people
who were of like mind with Baregg chose a new leader,
and they went back over the mountains into Ariador and
are forgotten. So I love that Omlac repents and you know,

(42:14):
and it's kind of like I feel like it's like
a it's like a tomt like an Apostle Thomas moment, right,
you know, the doubting Thomas moment, like you know where
he's like, he's like this jerk just tried to pretend
he was me and speak for me. All right, Now
I know this, Now I know this dark lord is real, right,
and he has it out for us. Okay, he's a liar, right.

(42:36):
I love this, like it's such a great little this is.
I will say, this is a story that I would
love to have fleshed out in a longer form, just
this little episode right here, right, kind of like what
Tolkien did with the author beeth right, Fenrada Andre. I
would love to have like just this kind of tale
told in a way that that fleshes out the details

(43:00):
of it much more, and you know, gives us the
full the full picture. And I particularly would love to
like see imlock like what's you know, kind of like
what what changes in him when he realizes that that
Morgoth tried to use him, right, tried to use him
to sow this despair right amongst his amongst his brethren.

Speaker 3 (43:21):
Yeah, and I'm sure in a way, you know, because
I'm luck was one of the ones, right you stood
up with with the bear egg and was was advocating
right for how.

Speaker 2 (43:32):
Wrong their their move had been.

Speaker 3 (43:37):
And now clearly he's like, yeah, I mean it was
it was a I'm sure it was like a watershed
moment for him, right, like whoa, I was way off right,
way way off. And in a way he probably feels
grateful that that he was brought to his senses in
a way. Yeah, I mean it took a lot to
do that, right, I mean it took a big time

(43:59):
interval chin and and good for good for him for
being able to see through that, right and for everybody
else to be able to see more Goth for who
he truly was.

Speaker 1 (44:09):
And yeah, yeah, it's almost like it was a miscalculation on.

Speaker 3 (44:12):
More Gospeling to do this, almost like he played his
hand too soon.

Speaker 1 (44:14):
Yeah, or like too far or just like underestimated. Underestimated
them right, like their dummies they don't understand. Yeah, yeah,
I can fool them with this, all right. So more Goth,
seeing that the lie by lies and the seats to
get not yet holiest trange elves and men, was filled
with rath and with wrath, and endeavored to do two

(44:36):
men what hurt he could. So he sends out an
or an Orcharde to attack the Haladin.

Speaker 3 (44:42):
And we were the Haladin at this point. Because the Haladin,
they they set out like at the same time as
the House of be all right, but they are arrived
quicker because they because the Haladin people were like a
large group, right, the Halidad or the Halden. The Haladin
were a larger group, so it took them longer. So

(45:04):
are the Haladin are they now? Where are they and
the House of in the same place?

Speaker 1 (45:09):
I mean, they're all in, They're all in Balerion.

Speaker 2 (45:11):
They are okay, but not okay.

Speaker 1 (45:12):
Not necessarily so they are let's see, fell upon the
Haladin in the southern woods of the land of Karnthier, right,
so this would be like kind of down here, so
pretty close. Still they still live pretty far east in Bellerian.

Speaker 2 (45:27):
Okay, but.

Speaker 1 (45:31):
Yeah, so like kind of over and in this region.

Speaker 2 (45:35):
And then where where's bors people?

Speaker 1 (45:41):
Can you see my point over there? Now? You can't
really anyway? Bayor's people people are they? Theyres people? I
believe they come up here and dwell and they kind
of move up into the northwest.

Speaker 2 (45:56):
So there's quite a bit of distance between them, and.

Speaker 1 (45:59):
They they all kind of spread out into their different areas.

Speaker 2 (46:02):
Yeah, okay, all.

Speaker 1 (46:04):
Right, so let's read about the Haladin and more Goths
attack upon them. Greta, do you want to read the
start here? Sure?

Speaker 3 (46:13):
Now, the Haladin did not live under the rule of
lords or many together, but each homestead was set apart
and governed its own affairs, and they were slow to unite.
But there was among them a man named Haaldad who
was masterful and fearless. And he gathered all the brave
men that he could find and retreated to the angle
of land between Ascar and Gellion. And in the utmost

(46:35):
corner he built a stockade across from water to water,
and behind it they led all the women and children
that they could save. There they were besieged until their
food was gone.

Speaker 1 (46:46):
Haldad had two children, had twin children, Halleth his daughter,
and Haldar his son, and both were valiant and the
defense for Halleth was a woman of great heart and strength.
But at last Haldad was slain in a sortie against
the Orcs, and Haldar, who rushed out to save his
father's body from their butchery, was hewn down beside him.
Then Hallith held his people together, though they were without hope,

(47:07):
and some cast themselves in the rivers and were drowned.
But seven days later, as the Orcs made their last assault,
and had already broken through the stockade, they came. There
came suddenly a music of trumpets, and Karrinthier with his
host came down from the north and drove the Orcs
into the rivers.

Speaker 3 (47:22):
Then Karntha looked kindly upon men, and did Halleth great honor,
and he offered her a recompense for her father and brother,
And seeing over late what valor there was in the Adine,
he said to her, if you will remove and dwell
further north, there you shall have the friendship and protection
of the Aldar and free lands of your own.

Speaker 1 (47:42):
But Hallith was proud and unwilling to be guided or ruled,
and most of the Halidin were of like mood. Therefore
she thanked Karnthier, but answered, my mind is now set
Lord to leave the shadow of the mountains and go west,
whether whither others of our kin have gone? When therefore
the Halo then it gathered all of all whom they
could they could find a live of their folk who

(48:04):
had fled wild into the woods before the Orcs, and
that glean what remained of their goods and their burned homesteads.
They took Halleth for their chief, and she led them
at last to Estelad, and they're dwelt for a time.
So you know, Halleth. Halleth is another add Halleth to

(48:24):
the list of you know, amazing awesome female characters in
Tolkien's work, right, yep. It's just if you if you
make the claim that like Tolkien's work is you know,
doesn't have and you know doesn't have any good female
characters in it, like you just you obviously haven't read
any of his works. You just don't know what you're
talking about. So, I mean, you know, he makes this

(48:48):
Halleth a pretty pretty tough.

Speaker 2 (48:50):
Lady right, she reminded me of an Yeah, I can
see that for sure.

Speaker 1 (48:53):
I can see that for sure. Yeah, it's a good call. Thanks,
all right.

Speaker 3 (48:58):
I don't like that she didn't go, though I would
she had taken Car and Thera up on his offer. Yeah,
I feel like that was maybe a miscalculation on her part.
But you know, I mean I could understand maybe she's
wants to do her own thing and that's fine.

Speaker 1 (49:12):
Well, they may not want to as much as they
may appreciate Car and theor like they you know, maybe
one of these things where like, Okay, we don't want
to just be kind of like your protected people, right
like like you know, like this could this could end
up being a bad dynamic, right of, like we saved

(49:32):
you and so you owe us.

Speaker 2 (49:34):
Right, Yeah, that's true.

Speaker 1 (49:36):
It could turn into that easily.

Speaker 2 (49:38):
That's true. That would be a tough time.

Speaker 1 (49:40):
So I think there's something admirable about saying like, Okay,
we're going to go forge our own, you know, forge
our own new new place in this world.

Speaker 2 (49:47):
Takes guts, for sure.

Speaker 1 (49:48):
Yeah, So okay, And then finally we come to some
discussion of the doom of men. So it talks about
it talks about many of the men, the eld friends
who you know who come to aid the elves, and

(50:08):
especially the Noldor. And it says all these were caught
in the net of the doom of the Noldor, and
they did great deeds which the Elder remembers still among
the histories of the kings of old. And in those
days the strength of men was added to the power
of the Noldor, and their hope was high, and Morgoth
was straightly enclosed. For the people of Hador, being hearty
to endure cold and long wandering, feared not at times
to go far into the north, and there keep watch

(50:29):
upon the movements of the enemy. The men of the
three houses throve and multiplied, But greatest among them was
the house of hod Or, golden head, peer of Elvin lords.
His people were of great strength and stature, ready in mind,
bold and steadfast, quick to anger into laughter, mighty Among
the children of a Lubatar and the youth of mankind,
yellow hair they were, for the most part, and blue eyed.

(50:50):
But not so was Turin, whose mother was more wind.
Of the house of Bayor, the men of that house
were dark or brown of hair, with gray eyes, and
all men they were most like, And of all men
they were most like the nulld Or, and most loved
by them. For they were eager of mind, cunning handed,
swift to understanding, long in memory, and they were moved
sooner to pity than to laughter. Like to them were
the woodland folk of Halleth, but they were of lesser

(51:13):
stature and less eager for lore. They used few words
and did not love great concourse of men, And many
among them delighted in solitude, wandering free in the green woods,
while the wonder of the lands of the Eldar was
new upon them. But in the realms of the west,
their time was brief and their days unhappy. So this
is not you know, this is not really a deal

(51:34):
where men come here and they find like happiness in
the land of Balerion. Right, it becomes a much greater struggle.
But the men who come here they realize that they
are brought here to play a part in the struggle
against Morgoth, and they realized that that is the best
of many bad options. So, but it's also their fate,
and their fate their fate for glory. Right, So in

(51:58):
reality it's the greatest op at least I think that's
how Tolkien would see it.

Speaker 2 (52:03):
I don't think so.

Speaker 1 (52:04):
Yep, all right. And then finally we get this little
passage about the death of Beyor, And when he lay
dead of no wound or grief, but stricken by age,
the elder saw for the first time the swift waning
of the life of men, and the death of weariness,
which they knew not in themselves. And they grieved greatly
for the loss of their friend friends. But Beyor at
the last had relinquished his life willingly and passed in peace.

(52:27):
And the elder wondered much at the strange fate of men,
for in all their lore there was no account of it,
and its end was hidden from them. So they wonder.
This great mystery to them is the death of men
like this, stricken by age, stricken by age? Right, how
does that work? And we see that Beor, this detail

(52:47):
about Beyor had relinquished his life willingly and passed in peace.
That's an important detail, Okay. Compare contrasts that with the
death of Denethor right, not so well, willingly, but in despair,
and not in peace, right willingly, in the wrong way.

(53:11):
Right the death of men right is intent should be
right should be willingly and in peace. Right, it should
be a falling asleep right. And you know that's something
again that Tolkien I think, I believe, you know, draws

(53:32):
from uh, you know, at least in part from his
own you know, from his own Catholic faith, right, just
understanding for example, the assumption, the assumption of Mary right
in the east, it's called the dormician right, this idea
that Mary just fell asleep, right, and and did not

(53:53):
you know, did not this there's not this like kind
of fearful death. Right. It was this. It was this
complete trust right, and then whatever lay on the other
side is good, right, falling asleep to wake up in
the promised land, right.

Speaker 3 (54:10):
And Mary obviously being as we use Catholics believe being
you know, immaculate, born without sin. Right, that's I mean
clearly that that that was the intent, right, Like, that's
what that's the will for all of us is to
fall asleep like that, to to die a happy, peaceful death,

(54:33):
not not to go out you know, clinging and like
you know, we're fighting like Dennithorpe did. But also to
two my other train of thought, Oh, I lost it well.

Speaker 1 (54:51):
As you as you try to recover it. I was
just gonna make the point. If you look at the
story of Newmanor and It's downfall, you see you see
this theme emerge. Okay, early on in the history of Numenor,
the kings of Numenor die similar deaths to bor right,
they fall asleep. It's almost like they decide that the
time is right to die, for them to fall asleep, right,

(55:14):
and to pass in peace. And as they go along
and they move further and further away from the not
from the knowledge and the belief and the trust in
the Luvatar that was their inheritance. Their deaths, they try
to put off death, they try to beat death, they
try to not die. They're afraid of death, right, Yeah,

(55:36):
you know, you can see this progression. It's part of
their decline. Is this is this progression from falling asleep
like a baby might fall asleep right into a new life,
right to the darkness. What lies beyond it? I don't know.
I'm so terrified and I've done evil in my life

(55:56):
that I have had that if there is anything on
the other side, I'll surely be held to account for. Right.
And so you know you have that, you have that
progression in the story of New Minor as well. Sorry,
this isn't just a detail that Tolkien throws in there
for you know, for detailed sake. It's say it's a
theme that will emerge in the story of Men, in
the story of Numan, or in his legendarium.

Speaker 2 (56:17):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (56:18):
Yeah, I think that's basically what I was going to say,
was it it's it's a it's the result of of sin, right?

Speaker 2 (56:24):
Is that is that that a.

Speaker 3 (56:27):
Peaceful, willing death is no longer a part of of
of the of the men's.

Speaker 2 (56:36):
Lore whatever.

Speaker 3 (56:38):
I also wanted to to comm out as last pair
of I know you didn't highlight it or anything, but
I thought it was really cool that that Tolkien ends
this chapter with making the point that even given all
of this turmoil and and you know, grief that that
the men have been through, that still the fact that

(57:01):
they've come to bill Aeron and they've meet they have
met the elves, like they're better for it, right, Like
they they were really blessed by.

Speaker 2 (57:12):
By the elves.

Speaker 3 (57:13):
They learned a lot, and they grew in wisdom and skill,
and because of that, even like the other men that
stayed behind like they were even though they were all men,
the men that came to Blion, and that the elves
were even greater, that they surpassed those other men that
did not come to Belarion because in large part of
the elves.

Speaker 1 (57:33):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, no, it's it's a it's a it's
good and and yeah, you see this that these men,
the men of Bealarion, they there was more than just
the fact that they came to this land and were
able to aid the elves and their struggle against more
goth It was a true benefit to these men and
to their you know, to those that came after them, right, yeah, yeah,

(57:54):
so good stuff. Yeah, absolutely, all right, any more thoughts
on that chapter? All right, well, let's let's us do
some rock paper scissors.

Speaker 3 (58:08):
Shoot rock papers scissors, Shoot rock papers, shoot.

Speaker 1 (58:16):
Rock paper scissors. Shoot.

Speaker 2 (58:19):
All right, all right, I'm gonna go first. Alright, alright, rote.

Speaker 3 (58:27):
Uh do alright, mysterious folk like and unlike the firstborn
eldar meat.

Speaker 2 (58:38):
A dine nice. I wonder if yeah, I mean, are
we ever gonna see any other other than nice?

Speaker 1 (58:46):
Like?

Speaker 2 (58:46):
I didn't like that one, I.

Speaker 3 (58:48):
Really, but I had such a hard time with this chapter,
Like I feel like I could not nice.

Speaker 2 (58:52):
No, I was I was just gonna say I was
thinking about that.

Speaker 3 (58:54):
I was like, don's gonna say it's nice even though
it actually sucks, Like he's not gonna actually say, oh,
I was really bad. But sometimes I kind of wish
you would, because I feel like that one was not good.

Speaker 1 (59:04):
Well, you know, you know what's you know, what's worse
than a haiku no haiku no haiku?

Speaker 2 (59:10):
Right, So I don't know is that always the case?

Speaker 1 (59:13):
Yes, if you say so, I mean, I guess you
could like it. But if it was that bad that
you're like, I mean, it would almost be like a
marvel in and of itself, right.

Speaker 2 (59:27):
So I guess that's okay. Yeah, all right, that's fair.

Speaker 1 (59:31):
I'm a I'm a I'm a maximalist, right, I'm a believer,
and like you know that even weird stuff can be
pretty glorious sometimes.

Speaker 2 (59:39):
So cool. I like it. That's very Tolkien in of you.

Speaker 1 (59:42):
Yes, yes, all right, here's mine. They flee the darkness,
undying since new shadow, this dark dread of death.

Speaker 2 (59:53):
It's very nice.

Speaker 1 (59:54):
Thank you, You're welcome.

Speaker 2 (59:56):
I like the literation in the last line.

Speaker 1 (59:58):
Well, good enough for Tolkien's good enough for me. All right, Well,
let's do some listener haiku. We have one, well, so
this is so I missed this one from Samuel p
going back to May sixth, and this was actually for

(01:00:18):
the This was actually uh for the of Men chapter,
which was several chapters ago, but I don't believe we
read it on there, so I thought i'd go ahead
and read it for this one. Maybe I did, but
I thought i'd gohea and read it on this one.
Men of the First Age, the hilldor frail lost deceived

(01:00:40):
nomad to leave their home. Nice.

Speaker 2 (01:00:43):
That's very good. Yeah, it fits for this one too, though,
that's right.

Speaker 1 (01:00:46):
Yeah, oh yeah, Well, he says the deceived part comes
from authurbed Fenrod to Andreath and Morgth's Ring, where Andreath
is telling King Fenrod of the dark past of men,
how they were deceived and led astray by Morgoth and
their prehistory. Hm. So there you go.

Speaker 2 (01:01:00):
They're in nice.

Speaker 1 (01:01:01):
And then we have one from red Hawk, who I
had one for last episode two and I forgot to
read it, so I apologize to him already all right,
but I'm gonna read it because we did Magalene Michelin
last time, so I'm going to read the migline one
and then we'll do the one for this chapter, and
then we'll go back and do the micheline one. All
right by fire Finnrod played with Bayor's harp and made

(01:01:23):
song men awake in dreams like that.

Speaker 2 (01:01:26):
That's really really good.

Speaker 1 (01:01:29):
Yep, all right, And then is one for chapter sixteen,
The Troubled Miglin Tragic childhood with loss, parentless, corrupt hmm.

Speaker 2 (01:01:40):
Good, yes, fantastic m yep, very very good.

Speaker 1 (01:01:45):
All right. Hey, thanks for the haiku everybody, And if
you've got a haiku that you that you got now
you want to do haikup for this episode, leaving the
comments below that applies to any of our past episodes.
All right, so I think it's all we got for
this episode. Hey, please subscribe, rate, and review us on
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(01:02:07):
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Speaker 2 (01:02:25):
Don't like this guy, if you like me, like, but.

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She's just I mean, she's like ten stars. So even
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Speaker 2 (01:02:37):
It's all good, yeah, all right, cool?

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Bye y'all, Bye bye.