July 21, 2025 • 54 mins
Our 2025 Silmarillion journey continues with Chapter 22 of Quenta Silmarillion - Of the Ruin of Doriath!
“Of the Ruin of Doriath” is not one of the longer chapters in The Silmarillion, but it is packed with hugely significant events as we rapidly approach the climactic catastrophes of the First Age! It all picks up after the death of Túrin and Nienor, Húrin’s children.
Silm Guide Link: https://www.tolkienroad.com/silmguide/sg25/
To support our work here, please visit Patreon.com/TolkienRoad.
Also, I've just launched a new Substack here: https://tolkienroad.substack.com/
Enjoy!
OTHER LINKS:
Video of this episode: https://youtu.be/a3kHJfQ1ucM
Watch AD-FREE: https://www.patreon.com/posts/afv-0302-2025-ch-134495956
Listen AD-FREE: https://www.patreon.com/posts/70894522
Buy Tolkien Road merch @ True Myths Press
Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/the-tolkien-road--5222755/support.
“Of the Ruin of Doriath” is not one of the longer chapters in The Silmarillion, but it is packed with hugely significant events as we rapidly approach the climactic catastrophes of the First Age! It all picks up after the death of Túrin and Nienor, Húrin’s children.
Silm Guide Link: https://www.tolkienroad.com/silmguide/sg25/
To support our work here, please visit Patreon.com/TolkienRoad.
Also, I've just launched a new Substack here: https://tolkienroad.substack.com/
Enjoy!
OTHER LINKS:
Video of this episode: https://youtu.be/a3kHJfQ1ucM
Watch AD-FREE: https://www.patreon.com/posts/afv-0302-2025-ch-134495956
Listen AD-FREE: https://www.patreon.com/posts/70894522
Buy Tolkien Road merch @ True Myths Press
Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/the-tolkien-road--5222755/support.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hey there, fellow travelers. Our twenty twenty five Silmarillion journey
continues with chapter twenty two of Quintus Silmarillion, of the
Ruin of Dorioth. Of the Ruin of Dorioth is not
one of the longer chapters in the Selmarillion, but it
is packed with hugely significant events as we rapidly approach
the climactic catastrophes of the first Age. It all picks
(00:20):
up after the death of Turin and neonor who Aren's children.
While you're listening, check out silmguide dot com. That's s
I l mguide dot com for guides to individual chapters.
You can find that link in the show notes. To
support our work here, please visit patreon dot com slash
Tolkien Road Enjoy. Hey there, fellow travelers, Welcome to the
(00:41):
Tolkien Road, Episode three oh two.
Speaker 2 (00:43):
Greta, we're back.
Speaker 3 (00:45):
We're back.
Speaker 2 (00:46):
We're back, and we're.
Speaker 3 (00:47):
Better than ever, better than ever maybe hopefully, well that.
Speaker 1 (00:51):
Remains to be seen. But we're feeling feeling pretty darn good.
Speaker 3 (00:55):
Well, yeah, I guess tired.
Speaker 1 (00:58):
I told our patrons that we been on the road
for the last week, so we just returned from a
long though expected journey to the West Coast from here
in Tennessee, round trip over four thousand miles.
Speaker 2 (01:13):
It was pretty epic.
Speaker 3 (01:14):
It was actually forty five hundred.
Speaker 2 (01:18):
Yeah it was.
Speaker 3 (01:19):
It was a lot, so epic is the right word.
Speaker 2 (01:22):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (01:22):
We drove out to California to drop off our oldest child,
our daughter, at her freshman year of college, and we
decided to, you know, make a road trip out of it. Right,
epic epic road trip it was.
Speaker 3 (01:36):
It was epic, yeah, so and very very awesome. I
feel like I'm still processing, but it was amazing.
Speaker 2 (01:45):
Yeah, for sure, we get it for sure. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (01:47):
We saw lots of amazing places, yes, beautiful places.
Speaker 3 (01:52):
Yeah. And it was both of our first time out
to well my first time out to that part of California,
I mean.
Speaker 2 (01:59):
Really mine too.
Speaker 1 (01:59):
I don't think i'd ever actually been in the LA
area before. I've been in San Diego before, but never
in the LA area before, Okay.
Speaker 3 (02:07):
Yeah, and I only ever been to the very northern
part of California, so it was all new to me.
But yeah, it's amazing. Are we have such a beautiful country?
Speaker 2 (02:17):
Yeah?
Speaker 1 (02:18):
Yeah, it was truly, I mean beautiful, but like epic,
it's you know, well, it just it was like so
many things.
Speaker 3 (02:27):
Just vast, like vast, so small, I know, so so small.
I mean between the you know, just the like the
the land that just goes on forever. Yeah, and then
the you know, just the stars that you know, you
can see the stars so.
Speaker 1 (02:45):
Clearly everybody who lives west of the Mississippi is just like, oh,
here go, here go those East Eastlanders, those easter Lings.
Speaker 3 (02:53):
Right well, was always saw that that guy at that
place we stopped for coffee, and he said that the
I guess we were in Texas maybe, And he said,
what do they say about is that the land out
here is so flat? If your dog runs away, you
can watch them for two days.
Speaker 2 (03:05):
Yeah, something like that.
Speaker 3 (03:08):
It was clever, clever, it was clever. But yeah, just
the variety of landscape too, was pretty yeah, pretty fantastic.
Speaker 1 (03:15):
Yeah, yeah for sure. All right, well let's dive into
this chapter, shall we. Well, actually, before we do that,
we gotta take care of some business.
Speaker 2 (03:25):
Hey.
Speaker 1 (03:26):
You know, in this episode we'll be discussing chapter twenty
two of the Silm Million of the Ruin of Dorios.
Speaker 2 (03:30):
We hadn't mentioned that yet.
Speaker 1 (03:31):
That is our plan. Chapter twenty two of the silm million.
Speaker 3 (03:33):
We're actually going to just talk about our road trip.
Speaker 1 (03:35):
I would love to just road trip and we'll say
one thing about Tolkien and then.
Speaker 2 (03:39):
On the episode.
Speaker 3 (03:40):
I mean, I think Tolkien was probably a road tripper
himself kind of.
Speaker 1 (03:45):
But I mean, the UK isn't really conducive to those
kinds of road trips per se.
Speaker 2 (03:50):
It's not as large. I mean, I'm sure you could
do road trips like you know.
Speaker 3 (03:54):
Well three years.
Speaker 2 (03:56):
See.
Speaker 1 (03:56):
That's the cool thing about UK or Europe is like
you can probably pack a lot more into a road trip.
Speaker 3 (04:03):
You could. Everything's a lot closer.
Speaker 2 (04:04):
Yeah, exactly, Yeah, exactly.
Speaker 3 (04:06):
Yeah, although you probably at least when I was in Europe,
I rode the train everywhere. Yeah, so you either be
a mittrain tripper maybe m hm.
Speaker 1 (04:14):
Anyway, yeah, all right, well business, let's take care of
some business.
Speaker 3 (04:18):
I'll stop, I'll stop rabbit trailing you.
Speaker 2 (04:21):
You're good, okay.
Speaker 1 (04:22):
Before we get started, we'd like to have a double
up AERI five to our patrons, get them hands up there,
three two.
Speaker 2 (04:28):
One osed boom.
Speaker 1 (04:31):
Nice special. Thanks to this episode's executive producers, John R.
Caitlin of t with Tolkien, Jacob Lockham, John H.
Speaker 2 (04:37):
And Scotchy Bobo.
Speaker 1 (04:39):
Thanks, thank you all, and a shout out to our
newest patrons and E and William H. Thank you for
becoming patrons.
Speaker 3 (04:47):
Ye truly appreciate it too.
Speaker 1 (04:50):
Become a patron by visiting patreon dot com slash Tolkien Road.
Your financial support helps the Tolkien Road to keep on
everring on and lend you some cool perks along the way.
Learn more at Patreon slash Tolkien Road YouTube. Hit that
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what's on your mind in the comments below. And right
(05:11):
now you've got about let's see as we record this,
you've got like nine more days to take advantage of
the twenty percent off three hundred episode celebration deal over
at trumispress dot com. Just use the code EP three
hundred and you can get twenty percent off of anything
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(05:34):
you normally take twenty percent off with your code, so
you get to take twenty five.
Speaker 2 (05:37):
Percent off.
Speaker 1 (05:39):
Over if you use your normal code right now until
the end of the month.
Speaker 2 (05:43):
So take advantage while you can, take advantage while you can.
Speaker 1 (05:47):
Right good advice, all right now, we're ready to dive in.
So our quote of the week comes from chapter twenty two,
and it goes like this. At the last Meleon spoke
and said Horan Thalian, more Goth hath bewitched thee, for
he that seeth through more God's eyes, willing or unwilling,
(06:10):
seeth all things crooked.
Speaker 2 (06:14):
That was that.
Speaker 1 (06:15):
That was kind of the theme here, right, Yeah, more
Goths set in things evil, his evil schemes and motion
by getting people to see things through his eyes, through the.
Speaker 2 (06:25):
Eyes of.
Speaker 1 (06:27):
Suspicion, through the eyes of evil.
Speaker 3 (06:30):
Darkness, yes, yeah, twistedness, twisted, twisted, corruption, yes, corrupt, yes.
Speaker 1 (06:39):
So after the devastating tragedies of chapter twenty one, we
get more devastating tragedies. Chapter twenty two picks up with Hohoran,
now old and worn out by more Goth's tortures, set
free to wander aimlessly in the wasted regions of belleriond
He inadvertently sets in motion a series of events that
will lead to the end of the Kingdom of Dorioth,
(06:59):
once the hidden heart of Bellarion's free regions. So standard
disclaimer you should read this story before you listen to
this episode, And as with each episode, we won't be
covering every detail of this chapter, but instead doing our
best to hit the high points and unpack interesting and
important details. If we miss something, you guys want to
discuss more, let us know.
Speaker 2 (07:20):
Timeline, So.
Speaker 1 (07:23):
Roughly we're talking a year of the Sun five hundred
through Year of the Sun five eleven ish. Now, the
problem is that, you know, we've been using volume eleven
of the History of Middle Earth, the War of the Jewels.
We've been using the first part of this for our
timeline reference. But it gets a little complicated because Tolkien
(07:46):
kind of stopped with the Tale of the with the
timeline he was doing here and then it but it
picks up later on in here kind of so, and
there's some different there's some different calculations he did on
the different years and how they fall. So that's why
I say, like roughly five hundred to five eleven is
(08:07):
over the years in which this takes place, So not
exact in this case, but you know that's pretty close.
They all match up kind of in that area, all right.
So the chapter begins with the release of Horan. Now
you'll recall at the end of chapter twenty who are
in is captured by more Goth, and he's imprisoned and
(08:30):
he's kind of forced to see through more Goth's eyes
everything that's going on in Bealerion, especially as it relates
to his children. And in chapter twenty one we get
the story of his son Turin and of his daughter
neon or right, and all the things that befall them,
as well as what befalls more who are in his
(08:52):
wife so and and none of what happens to them
is good. None of what happens to them is good.
In fact, it's pretty horrible. So we will be talking
a lot more about the kind of this, this big
story of Whoran and of Turin and Leonora and Morwen.
(09:12):
We're talking a lot more about this in the not
do this in future when we actually go and do
chapter by chapter read through of the Children of Huron,
which is the novel version of this story that came
out about fifteen years ago. And so we'll get a
lot more familiar with these things as we continue down,
you know, the road a little further, probably probably early
part of next years is where I'm targeting right now.
(09:35):
But right now we're just going to consider kind of
the short version of this story and how Hooran and
his release by Morgoth at the beginning of this chapter
leads to the ruin of Dorioth, of this kingdom of Dorioth. So, yes,
Whorin is released, Whan is released? So why why would
hoo aren't release?
Speaker 2 (09:55):
Was he like? You know? What did he escape? Was
you know? Did he cut some kind of deal with
more goth like? Why was he released?
Speaker 1 (10:05):
So?
Speaker 2 (10:05):
Let's read?
Speaker 1 (10:06):
Uh, let's read one of the quotes that starts off
when the paragraphs that starts off this.
Speaker 2 (10:09):
Chapter to learn a little more. So, greta, do you
want to read? Starting here?
Speaker 1 (10:12):
Sure?
Speaker 3 (10:13):
Unhappy was the lot of huor of Hohoren. For all
that Morgoth knew of the working of his malice, Horan
knew also, But lies were mingled with the truth, and
aught that was good was hidden or distorted. In all ways,
Morgoth sought most to cast an evil light on those
things that Thingle and Melian had done, for he hated
(10:33):
them and feared them. When therefore he judged the time
to be ripe, he released Hoorin from his bondage, bidding
him go whether he would, And he feigned that in
this he was moved by pity as for an enemy
utterly defeated, but he lied for his purpose was that
Horan should still further his hatred for elves and men
(10:54):
ere he died.
Speaker 1 (10:56):
Yeah, so he feigns pity, but really Morgth is just
kind of tortured Horran to a point where where he's
he's got him kind of in the in the disposition
he wants him to be in to go and really
just do more Goths witting bidding, although albeit inadvertently right,
So you know, we think of you know, this, this
(11:17):
thing we talked about in chapter twenty one was this
idea that more Goth claims to be the master of
fates right and and Turin like that that name meant
master of fate right. So ultimately it's like this battle
between more between these people who want to be the
master of fate right and more Goth. It would seem
as the one who keeps winning, right, More Goth keeps winning,
(11:41):
and he knows, I mean, he's this great power, he's
this great spiritual power, right, he knows how to manipulate,
he knows how to to work with various spirits and
get them to do his bidding.
Speaker 2 (11:53):
Right. That's where a lot of that's you know, he this.
Speaker 1 (11:57):
Is literally the guy that that created the dark Lord Saron, right,
that gave us the dark Lord Suron by his own
you know, spiritual conniving. So you know, he's more Goth
is a is very capable of doing these kinds of things.
So he sets to who we're in about. He kind
of sets him free almost.
Speaker 2 (12:14):
Like he's this.
Speaker 1 (12:17):
You know, just he's just this ticking time bomb, you know,
kind of walking walking through the land, right, and you know,
just seeing like where he's you know, kind.
Speaker 2 (12:28):
Of wind him up.
Speaker 1 (12:30):
He's he's wound him up, and now he's setting him
free just to kind of wonder about and see what happens, right,
and he probably knows that there will be certain things
that he tries to do, right, knowing Horn, there's certain
things he's going to try to do, and that's why
more Goth, you know, sets him free here. So the
first thing that Hooran does is well not the first thing,
(12:51):
but kind of the first major thing that Hooran does
that kind of helps Morgoth and his designs is he
shows up near the secret entrance to Gondolin and starts
calling for Tor Goon right to let him in, right,
and of course more Goth is not setting Horrn free
and being like, go do your own thing, you know, not.
Speaker 2 (13:12):
Gonna worry about you anymore.
Speaker 1 (13:14):
He's spying on him the whole time, right, He's he's
he's got his minions looking out for him. And so,
you know, while he doesn't completely give away the location
of Gondolin because he doesn't know it for sure, meaning
Horn doesn't know for sure, nevertheless he arrives close enough
to where you know, the secret entrances that more Goth
can figure out, Okay, Gondolin's somewhere in this area, right,
(13:37):
Gondolin is somewhere in this area, So that's the first
thing he does, and of course Horn is not trying
to do that, but he's just you know, he's he's
searching for help.
Speaker 2 (13:45):
He's searching for help. So then really from.
Speaker 1 (13:51):
There, of course Torgon is at first unwilling to give
him help because he doesn't want to. He doesn't want
to expose, you know, the secret location of his kingdom.
He kind of rethinks it and is willing to. But
by the time he rethinks it, it's too late. It's
too late to get Horn, and Horran.
Speaker 2 (14:06):
Has moved on.
Speaker 1 (14:08):
So the next he he's basically wandering south right from
that pass, you know, from the Veil of Syrion, and
wanders south into the region of Brethel, which is the
forest region directly south of that, and starts wondering towards Nargothrond,
which is even further south. And as he gets south
of Brethel, he comes upon Morwyn right. So at this
(14:33):
point turn Neonor are both dead and but Morwyn is
still very much alive, and so let's read about their
interaction here. Sitting in the shadow of the stone, there
was a woman bent over her knees, and as Horn
stood there silence, she cast back her tatterhood and lifted
her face.
Speaker 2 (14:54):
Gray.
Speaker 1 (14:54):
She was and old, but suddenly her eyes looked into his,
and he knew her, for though they were wild and
full of fear, that light still gleamed in them that
long ago had earned for her the name Elithwyn, proudest
and most beautiful of mortal women in the days of old.
You come at last, she said, I have waited too long.
It was a dark road. I have come as I could,
(15:16):
he answered, But you are too late, said Morwen.
Speaker 2 (15:19):
They are lost.
Speaker 1 (15:22):
I know it, he said, but you are not, But
Morwin said, almost, I am spent. I shall go with
the sun now, little time is left. If you know,
tell me how did she find him? But Hoorn did
not answer, and they sat beside the stone and did
not speak again. And when the sun went down, Morwyn
(15:42):
sighed and clasped his hand and was still, and Houarin
knew that she had died. He looked down at her
in the twilight, and it seemed to him that the
lines of grief and cruel hardship were smoothed away. She
was not conquered, he said, and he closed her eyes
and sat unmoving beside her.
Speaker 2 (15:58):
In the night.
Speaker 1 (15:58):
As the knight drew down, the waters of Kabed n'harramrth
roared on, but he heard no sound, and he saw
nothing and felt nothing, for his heart was stone within him.
But there came a chill wind that drove sharp rain
into his face, and he was roused, and anger rose
in him like smoke, mastering reason, so that all his
desire was to seek vengeance for his wrongs and for
(16:21):
the wrongs of his kin, accusing in his anguish all
those who ever had dealings with them. Then he rose up,
and he made a grave. For more, when above kabed
na'hor amarh on the west side of the stone, and
upon it he cut these words. Here lies also mor
when elith Wyn.
Speaker 2 (16:38):
So more when.
Speaker 1 (16:39):
They briefly exchanged words, Hoorin is not does not want
to tell her really what befell their children and more
when passes away, Although unconquered, as it says here, unconquered
in spirit, however Hoorn it would seem, is conquered in spirit,
(17:02):
you know by this And is the wind, is the
rain hits his face, It says he's just filled with
this desire for vengeance, just just wants to avenge everything
at this point. And you know, it's like, who can
blame him right after everything they've been through. Gosh, you know,
it's what does he have left?
Speaker 2 (17:20):
Right? What does he have left? But just anger?
Speaker 1 (17:22):
You know, I think i'd certainly struggle not to feel
very bitter and hateful at that point, after everything, after
losing everything, you know, trying to trying to give so much,
trying to be heroic and having all you know, this
fate returned to you right the death of your children
before your time, the death of your wife just as
you found her after being separated from her for years,
(17:45):
all the tortures he endured, the deaths of other friends.
Speaker 2 (17:50):
It's it's horrible, you know it is.
Speaker 3 (17:53):
I find myself wondering, like what, I guess I'm wondering why,
you know, why more when like it almost seemed like
like who were In returning to her? Was that closure
she needed to die? Because it I guess what I'm
(18:16):
trying to express is that, like I wonder why she
waited till now to die. It just seems or that
could have also been the working of Morgoth, because it
just seems incredibly cruel right to lose someone again for
the second time, right after you've found them and where reunited.
(18:37):
So maybe maybe that's it, because I mean, unless my
other thought, I guess is that maybe who are In
confirm for her that the kids, that their children were
indeed dead. Maybe she was still holding on to a
threat of hope. I'm not sure. Yeah, but sad, very sad.
Speaker 1 (18:57):
Yeah, And maybe so and maybe too maybe I misread
this too, But as I look at it again, how
did she find him?
Speaker 2 (19:04):
Maybe it's not.
Speaker 1 (19:05):
Maybe she understands what happened to their children. It's just
a question of like how they found how they found
each other, and at that Huorin doesn't have anything to say. Yeah,
I mean I think probably she you know, she held
on until she saw him again. It just so there
could be that, you know, that closure, that closure for them.
Speaker 3 (19:25):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (19:26):
So yeah, just very very sad. End to more when.
Speaker 3 (19:33):
What does this mean? Here? It says here lies also
more when like, is there another grape? There? Is there someone?
The word also there.
Speaker 2 (19:43):
That I think that may I think they are.
Speaker 1 (19:45):
I think this is the place where perhaps both Turin
and Leonora died. That's a good question.
Speaker 3 (19:52):
Oh, okay, okay, because it's okay. Oh is that the
river that that they uh that nia Nor threw herself.
Speaker 1 (20:04):
Into let's see here. So yeah, I'm not sure.
Speaker 2 (20:14):
I didn't.
Speaker 1 (20:15):
I don't have that at the ready to understand that,
but that would be my that would be my hunch
that that's what happened, or at least one of them
was there.
Speaker 3 (20:28):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (20:30):
Yeah, So well from here, who are In continues further
south to Nargothrond, which is, of course, has been sacked
at this point, and the only person he finds there
is Meme, the petty dwarf right who we met in
chapter twenty one, and let's read about a little bit
about his interaction here with with mem.
Speaker 2 (20:57):
Well, let me just say this.
Speaker 1 (20:58):
He confronts me, and you know, is essentially like, hey,
what are you doing here? I think I have a
right to be here and to do what I want
in this kingdom because of my son being the slayer
of Glawrung. So you know, we get this sense that
Hooran knows about all the things that his children have
(21:19):
done right, and he's you know, because he's been seeing
them all through the eyes of more Goth. Yeah, so
he has this confrontation with me. So, Greta, do you
want to read this snippet here?
Speaker 3 (21:29):
Then Meme, in great fear, besought who were in to
take what he would, but to spare his life. But
Horren gave no heed to his prayer and slew him
there before the doors of Nargathrond. Then he entered in
and stayed awhile in that dreadful place where the treasures
of Valanor lay strewn upon the floors in darkness and decay.
But it is told that when Huorin came forth from
(21:51):
the wreck of Nargathron and stood again beneath the sky.
He bore with him out of all that great horde,
but one thing only.
Speaker 2 (21:59):
And that one thing is the necklace of the dwarves,
right the.
Speaker 1 (22:04):
Uh this, you know, this great necklace that was a
thing of great beauty, and yeah, the now Glimir. And
he takes that with him, leaving all the other treasures
of Elinor behind, because he doesn't really care about the.
Speaker 2 (22:17):
Treasure so much.
Speaker 1 (22:18):
He has one purpose for this Nowvlimir, for this necklace,
and that's to take.
Speaker 2 (22:22):
It to Dorioth.
Speaker 1 (22:24):
So he journeys east to Dorioth and uh and has
an audience with thingle and and this is this is
what takes place. Horn made no answer to the king,
but drew forth from beneath his cloak that one thing
which he had taken with him out of Nargathron, And
(22:44):
that was no lesser treasure than the now Glomir, the
necklace of the dwarfs that was made for Finrod Felagen
long years before by the craftsmen of Nagrad and Belugust,
most famed of all their works in the elder days,
imprized by Fenrod while he lived above all the treasures
of Nargathron and Hoorn cast it at the feet of
Thingal with wild and bitter words. Receive thou thy fee.
(23:05):
He cried for thy fair keeping of my children and
my wife. For this is the Nauglomir, whose name is
known to many among elves and men. And I bring
it to thee out of the darkness of Nargathrond, where
Fenrod thy Kinsman left it behind him when he set
forth with Baron, son of Barrahir, to fulfill the errand
of Thingol of Dorioth. Then Thingule looked upon the great
(23:27):
treasure and knew it for the Nowglomir. And well did
he understand Hourin's intent. But being filled with pity, he
restrained his wrath and endured Hourin scorn. And at the
last Milion spoke and said, hoorn Thalian, Morgath hath bewitch thee,
for he that seeth through Morgoth's eyes, willing or unwilling,
seeth all things crooked. Long was toren thy son fostered
(23:50):
in the halls of Minnigroth, and shown love and honor
as the son of the king. And it was not
by the King's will nor by mine that he came
never back to Doriath. And afterwards thy wife and thy
daughter were harbored here with honor and good will. And
we sought by all means that we might to dissuade
Morwin from the road to Nargathrond. With a voice of Morgoth,
(24:12):
thou dost now upbraid thy friends, And hearing the words
of Melion, hourin stood moveless, and he gazed long into
the eyes of the Queen, and there in Menigroth, defended
still by the girdle of Melion, from the darkness of
the enemy, he read the truth of all that was done,
and tasted at last the fullness of woe that was
measured for him by Morgoth Baluglier. And he spoke no
(24:35):
more of what was past, But stooping, lifted up the
now glomere from where it lay before Thingle's chair, and
he gave it to him, saying, received now Lord the
necklace of the dwarfs, as a gift from one who
has nothing, and as a memorial of Houron of dor Loomen.
Speaker 2 (24:50):
For now my fate is.
Speaker 1 (24:51):
Fulfilled, and the purpose of Morgoth achieved. But I am
his thrall no longer. Then he turned away and passed
out from the thousand caves, and all that saw him
fell back before his face, and none sought to withstand
his going going, nor did no excuse me, nor did
any know whether he went. But it is said that
Horan would not live there after, being bereft of all
(25:13):
purpose and desire, and cast himself at last into the
Western Sea. And so ended the mightiest of the warriors
of mortal men. So a little something there to wet
my whistle after that long passage. So Horan we we
(25:33):
learned of Hoorn's fate casting himself into the Western Sea.
He delivers the noaglomere, you know, really delivers it as
a as a way of spiting thingle as a way
of you know, giving just some little taste of vengeance.
And it's only Melion's words that really, you know, set him,
you know it. It seemed to set him straight somewhat, right,
(25:57):
I mean, yeah, I guess it all depends on on
which way you read it. I think he probably he
sounds to me like he's a little bit if he's
a little bit less saucy, if you will.
Speaker 2 (26:08):
Uh.
Speaker 1 (26:08):
And the second part of his talking, then he is
the first part after million after million, uh, you know,
lectures him.
Speaker 3 (26:17):
Yeah, maybe maybe. I guess if they truly had set
him straight, he wouldn't have killed himself.
Speaker 2 (26:24):
Yeah, I mean he doesn't.
Speaker 1 (26:26):
Well, I think he you know, I think that was
his uh, I mean, what else does he have to
live for at that point? You know, Yeah, he wasn't
said completely No, he wasn't set completely straight. I think
he's maybe he maybe finishes here less better than he
than he started, but but still like better, less better
towards others. But and he realizes that he's he's kind
(26:49):
of done the will of more Goth here. But but
you know, he still has he's still filled with despair
at this point, right, because what does he have to
it for?
Speaker 2 (27:00):
At this point?
Speaker 3 (27:01):
It's true, Yeah.
Speaker 1 (27:03):
You know, I mean it's it's it's like first with
his children, you know, it's just like one bad thing
after another that he has to witness.
Speaker 2 (27:11):
And then and.
Speaker 1 (27:12):
It's almost you know, we talked about Turin being this
figure that's like you know, it's it's just like he's
pushing everyone that comes into contact with him, like somehow
inadvertently it's a it's bad news for that other person, right,
And it would seem that Horan is kind of completing that.
What his son started is kind of completing that too.
Speaker 2 (27:35):
You know.
Speaker 1 (27:36):
Yeah, they're just cursed, right, they're cursed abs. So you know,
again we have this theme of more Goth. That more
Goth one of the one of the chief evils he
does is causing people to see manipulating their vision, uh,
(28:00):
to see things in an evil light, to see things crooked,
to see things askew rather than rather than rightly, rather
than the way they're meant to be seen, and so
much about.
Speaker 2 (28:13):
You know, we when we view the world in a.
Speaker 1 (28:19):
You know, in an evil way, in a skewed way,
that cause that leads to evil action, right, that leads
to the wrong action, that leads to us inspiring that
same vision in others, right, and and and thus causing
that evil action in others. So you know, it's this
is like again one of the chief powers of more Goth.
(28:41):
One of the chief things he executes through, uh, you know,
through who are in in all this? All?
Speaker 2 (28:48):
Right? Well now who are in is gone? But the
chapter is not ended.
Speaker 1 (28:53):
And what we what happens next is that thingle is
like okay, well I've got this necklace this now, glimir,
you know what would look really great on this nove
lamir on this necklace my silverrell, right, because he's got
that sil Merrell. Right, he's got the silmrell that Baron.
Baron won, well, Baron and Luthian really won together. That
(29:14):
was the bride price that that single tasked Baron with.
And then thing and then Luthian helps, you know, Baron
obtain the obtain the silver Merle from the iron crown
of Wargoth. And Thingle has that he has that sil merell.
So he's like, he goes to the dwarves and he says, hey,
how about you take this necklace and you put that
(29:34):
sil merell on it, right, and he's gonna have, man,
he is just gonna have the mother of all that leads.
Oh yeah, so sounds like, you know, I mean, a
very kingly gift, if you will, And it says the
dwarves when he took it to them, the dwarves looked
upon the work of their fathers, and they beheld with
(29:54):
wonder the shining jewel of fan Ore, and they were
filled with the great lust to possess them and carry
them off to their far homes in the mountains. But
they dissembled their mind, and consented to the task of
putting some morellah, of putting the sorel on the necklace. However,
that doesn't really last very long, that meaning they don't
dissemble for very long. It goes on, by what right
(30:20):
does the Elvin king lay claim to the Nauglimir that
was made by our fathers for Fenrod Felgand, who is dead.
It is come to him but by the hand of Huran,
the man of Dorloman, who took it as a thief
out of the darkness of Nargothrond. But Thingal perceived their
hearts and saw well that, desiring the soilmrill, they sought
but a pretext and fair cloak for their true intent.
(30:41):
And in his wrath and pride he gave no heed
to his peril, but spoke to them in scorned saying,
how do ye of uncouth race dare to demand aught
of me? Elu Thingal, lord of Bellerion, whose life began
by the waters of Quivian, and years uncounted ere the
fathers of the stunted people awoke, and standing tall and
proud among them, he bade them, with shameful words, be
(31:03):
gone unrequited out of Dorioth. Then the lust of the
dwarves was kindled to rage by the words of the king,
and they rose up about him and laid hands on
him and slew him as he stood. So died in
the deep places of Minnigroth. Elowy Singolo death of King
of Dorioth, who alone of all the children of Illubatar,
was joined with one of the Aor. And he who
(31:25):
alone of the forsaken elves had seen the light of
the trees of Eleanor with his last sight, gazed upon
the Silmarill. Then the dwarves, taking the Nowglomir, passed out
of Minigroth and fled eastward through Regian. But Tidings went
swiftly through the forest, and few of the company came
over Aros, for they were pursued to the death as
they sought the eastward road. And then Nowglomir was retaken
(31:46):
and brought back in bitter grief to Melion the Queen.
So you know, really we have the lust and deception
of the dwarfs, but thingle being filled with pride and wrath.
So we just have this clashing of of vices here
(32:08):
between these two groups of people. And uh, I mean
Thingal says some pretty says some pretty nasty things to them,
right of course, you know, the dwarves at first are like, well,
we kind of think we should have this right, and
Thingals like, you know, instead of being like, you know,
wait a minute, right, I mean it, not only does
he say these awful things to them, but he's like
(32:28):
really rash about it too, right, and he doesn't even
like think like, uh, dude, you're gonna get yourself killed.
It's like, you know, you're in you're surrounded by dwarves
right now, and you're gonna you're gonna say all these
things about them, Like that's not smart, So, you know,
very ugly scene. It's not it's it's not a kinseling
because it's not the dwarves and the elves, but it's
(32:48):
you know, again we see that the Silmarillion like inspires
for for being this like holy jewel, It inspires all
of this evil in those who into contact with it, right,
very few are able to very few are kind of
able to to maybe see it right, you know, to
(33:10):
to behold it's light in the right way instead of
being a light that they want to possess. Right, So
again we see that theme of like, how do you
see the world. How do you see the things of
the world?
Speaker 2 (33:20):
Right?
Speaker 1 (33:21):
Do you see them as Illuvatar would want you to
see them? Or do you see it as as.
Speaker 2 (33:27):
More Goth would want you to see it? Right?
Speaker 1 (33:29):
Illuvatar would look at the jewels and say, you know, yes,
it's a holy light. But it's meant to be the
possession of all, right, And that was you know, the
original intention of it, right, But it meant to be
the treasure of all. But in the possession of but
(33:50):
in the vision of Thingle and of the dwarves, it
becomes this thing to battle over, and ultimately thingles life
is ended, and and then Dwarfs. So this begins this
process of the Silmurle, like kind of like changing lots
of hands in a lot of ways. The Silmuril goes
from Thingle, and then the dwarves murder Thingle take it.
(34:11):
The dwarves are stopped when they try to escape from Dorioth,
and it's brought back to Melion.
Speaker 2 (34:17):
Meleon gives it to Mablung.
Speaker 1 (34:19):
Who is one of the warriors of the Great Warriors
of Dorioth, and Mablung is supposed to keep it.
Speaker 2 (34:26):
To keep it safe. Well, other dwarfs come.
Speaker 1 (34:30):
Well, first of all, we should say Meleon leaves Melion
it it now has no reason to be in Dorioth
anymore because Thingle is dead. She's filled with grief, and
she departs and she's no more right, she's no more
in Valerion. Bad news, right, It's like, well, we had
a we had a mayar you know, that could kind
of help us with their mayar powers. No longer, right,
(34:52):
she remember she was the one that was created that
girdle around the Kingdom of Dorioth. Right, that protection for
the Kingdom of Dorioth. So that's no longer there, And
so the dwarves come back. More dwarves come back, and
they assault, They assault Doriof and they kill Mablung and
take the Sommarole with the now Glimir on it. Well,
(35:14):
that leads to the next big interesting thing that happens here.
So just as the dwarves are once again escaping with
the Sommarll and the Nwglimir, what should happen but Baron
comes back into the picture. All of a sudden, Barons
swooping in, bounding in from the left right. Baron returns right,
(35:34):
and it's like whoa. I thought Baron and Luthian were
out of the story at this point, But not quite
yet a little bit more from Baron and Luthian. All right, So, Greta,
would you like to read? Would you like to read
this passage?
Speaker 2 (35:49):
Please?
Speaker 3 (35:51):
Now word went swiftly among the elves of oh Syriond
that a great host of dwarves bearing gear of war
had come down out of the mountains and passed over
again at the ford of Stones. These tidings came soon
to Baron and Luthian, and in that time also a
messenger came to them out of Dorioth, telling of what
had befallen there. Then Baron arose and left Tolgalen, and
(36:13):
summoning to him dioor his son, they went north to
the river Ascar, and with them went many of the
green elves of Osyriond. Thus it came to pass that
when the dwarfs of Nagrond, returning from Menegroth with diminished host,
came again to sarn Athrad, they were assailed by unseen enemies,
(36:33):
for they climbed up Gelon's bank and burdened with the
spoils of Dorioth. Suddenly all the woods were filled with
the sound of elven horns, and shafts sped upon them
from every side. There very many of the Dwarfs were
slain in the first onset, but some, escaping from the ambush,
held together and fled east towards towards the mountains. And
(36:53):
as they climbed the long slopes beneath Mount Dolmed, there
came forth as shepherds of the trees, and they drove
the Dwarfs into the shadowy woods of Irad Lindun, whence,
it is said, came never one to climb the high
passes that led to their homes. In that battle by Sarnathrad,
Baron fought his last fight, and himself slew the lord
(37:16):
of Nogrond, and wrested from him the necklace of the Dwarfs.
But he, dying, laid his curse upon all the treasure.
Then Baron gazed in wonder on the self same jewel
of Feyenoor that he had cut from Morgoth's iron crown,
now shining set Ahmed, now shining set amid gold and
gems by the cunning of the Dwarfs, and he washed
(37:37):
it clean of blood in the waters of the river,
and when all was finished, the treasure of Dorioth was
drowned in the river Ascar, and from that time the
river was named anew Rath Loyel the Golden Bed. But
Baron took the nowglomere and returned to Tolgalden. Little did
ease the grief of Luthian to learn that the lord
of Noagrond was slain, and many dwarfs beside. It is
(38:00):
said in song that Luthian, wearing that necklace and that
immortal jewel, was the vision of greatest beauty in glory
that has ever been outside the realm of Eleanor. And
for a little while the land of the dead that
lived became like a vision of the land of the Valar.
And no place has been since so fair, so fruitful,
or so filled with light.
Speaker 1 (38:20):
Yeah, so a couple of really interesting things here. So
we have this mention of the shepherds of the trees, right,
so I'm inentse right, So apparently iNTS kind of team
up with Baron here to attack the attack the dwarfs
who are trying to get away with the selmrill. And
that's cool, right, that's really cool. So you know, this
(38:43):
is one of the only other references we have to
ens outside of Lord of.
Speaker 3 (38:47):
The Rings, and it seems appropriate that they would not
be friendly toward dwarves. Yeah, just given what we know
about dwarves.
Speaker 1 (38:55):
Yeah, well and I think we if we you know,
we can think back to there's some moments you know
the well me just think about it, right. So Ala,
So the other reference in the Silmarillion is in Alai
and Yovanna the right chapter two. The nts literally come
about because Alai creates the dwarves, right, So they're like
they're like Alai's Yvanna's response to Alay's creation of the dwarves, right. Yeah,
(39:19):
and yeah, that's you know, this is one of the
only things we see. This would be obviously a very
cool thing to see maybe one of these days on
you know, adapted to visual.
Speaker 2 (39:29):
Medium of some sort.
Speaker 1 (39:31):
But we also get this word of Luthian that she,
you know, she and it somehow seems appropriate that she's
the one that's going to have this, you know, where
this necklace with the silm Merle for the longest period
of time, and it's like between Luthian and then the
Silmurle together, you know, here in this u forested region
in the southeast. It's like a little a little part
(39:52):
of vallen Or right, uh, comes to life in Valerion.
Speaker 2 (39:55):
Right.
Speaker 1 (39:56):
So it's just you know, it's cool and uh and
and it again. And it's like if anybody is going
to if anybody is going to bear the Silmrll worthily,
it would seem like Luthian would be the one to
do so.
Speaker 3 (40:09):
Right, yes, yeah, And just given what you were what
we were talking about a little bit ago about how
very few are able to actually possess the soil Morell
without it overtaking them, it seems like this this is
has the fact that Baron and Luthian are able to
possess the su Morral without without the consequences of like
(40:35):
the other people that have possessed it. I feel like
it sets them apart in some way, right. It speaks
to their characters and and and just the kind of
you know, creatures that they are, that they're and that
Luthian is able to especially Luthian is able to wear
it without it having a negative effect on her. Yeah,
(40:59):
makes them in a way hollowed right right right.
Speaker 1 (41:02):
Baron, perhaps because his only desire for the Somerl was
in order to obtain Luthian.
Speaker 3 (41:07):
Right, Yeah, it was a selfless.
Speaker 1 (41:10):
And now that he has Luthian, he no longer has
need of no need of the sorell right.
Speaker 2 (41:18):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (41:18):
And so but in a way, it's like you know,
then and and Luthian never seems to have had any
desire for it. And maybe that's because she has the
you know, the the Mayar blood, the good nature of
Melian within her right, that she inherited that good nature
from her mother, that would somehow seem fitting. But but yeah,
(41:40):
she's able to simply bear it and to maybe even
use it in the proper fashion to beautify and glorify
the land about her and to help, you know, make
it a place of peace. Uh, and you know, reflecting
some of what Vallenor was once.
Speaker 3 (41:56):
Was, right, little piece of heaven on earth.
Speaker 2 (41:59):
That's right, that's right.
Speaker 1 (42:01):
Well, we learn a little bit more at this point
about Dior, who is the lone child, I believe the
lone child, but is the son of Baron and Luthian.
And we learned that Dior is uh. He he goes
shortly after this, he goes back to Dorioth and to
(42:22):
really re establish the kingdom. He goes back to Menegroth
and and and briefly re establishes this kingdom of Dorioth.
And shortly after he's there, a messenger comes and delivers
a box to him, and in that box is the
now Glimir with the Silmarle upon it. And we learned
at that time, and that's kind of he reads into
(42:44):
this that Baron and Luthian have finally departed you know,
Middle Earth for good and it and it says that
their fate would be the fate of men, right, that
they're to pass out of this world into a faith
that's unknown, right, and that's what they you know, that's
what Luthian had chosen for herself, that so Louthian had
chosen for herself. So Dior now has the now Glimir
(43:04):
and the Soelmrill and it's not much longer until the
sons of Fan or hear this.
Speaker 2 (43:12):
And what's uh, what are the sons of Fan are
going to do? Well? They are gonna remember the oath
that they took with their.
Speaker 1 (43:17):
Father, and and that means bad news for Dior.
Speaker 2 (43:21):
So let's read this passage.
Speaker 1 (43:28):
Let's see actually, uh, not that one. Oh, here we go,
but now hearing of the renewal of Dorioth and of
Dior's pride. The seven gathered again from wandering, and they
sent to him to claim their own. But Dior returned
no answer, for the sons of fan Or and Caligorm
stirred up his brothers to prepare an assault upon Dorioth.
They came at unawares in the middle of winter and
(43:50):
fought with Dior in the Thousand Caves, and so befell
the second slang of Elf by Elf. There fell Caligorm
by Dior's hand, and there fell Kurapin and dark Karnthr.
But Dior was slain also in Nimloth, his wife and
the cruel servants of Caligorm seized his young sons and
left them to starve in the forest of this Methros.
(44:10):
Mathros indeed repented and sought for them long in the
woods of Dorioth, but his search was unavailing, and the
fate of Elurd and Elurin no tale tells. Thus Dorioth
was destroyed and never rose again. But the sons of
fan Or gained not what they sought, for a remnant
of the people fled before them, and with them was
el Wing Dior's daughter, and they escaped, and hearing with
(44:34):
them the Silmarill, they came, and bearing with them the
sil marl they came in time to the mouths of
the river Syrian by the sea. So we have three
of the sons of fan Or perish. And as they
in this fight to obtain the Silmurle from Dior, Dior
Nimloth and their two sons, Dior Nimloth die. Their two
sons are left in the wilderness and never heard from again.
(44:55):
Only el Wing, who is the daughter of Dior and Nimloth,
is gapes and she with the some Marrell down to
the mouth of the river Syrion. So there's four sons
of fan Ore left. Mathros of course repents, right, he's
he's you know, of all the sons of fan Or,
it would seem that Mythros is the one that is
(45:17):
is like it seems like redemption might be possible for him.
Speaker 3 (45:20):
He's got a little inkling of good, you.
Speaker 1 (45:22):
Know, just like cut just like little by little, like
different things are happening that make him think like maybe
I'm maybe we're wrong about this about you know, the
the severity of this oath, and and that sort of thing.
But ultimately it's l Wing that escapes with the so
Marrell as a child and with the right no, no, no,
(45:45):
not with the sons of She escapes from the sons.
Speaker 3 (45:47):
Of fail Oh, it is the remnant of the remnant.
Speaker 2 (45:50):
Of Dorioth flees to the mouth of Syrion.
Speaker 3 (45:54):
So so they there's one descendant of Baron Luthian left,
one descendant right, and that's l who will come back
into the story of course.
Speaker 1 (46:03):
So yeah, lots of folks, lots of folks dying, the
second kN slaying Dorioth is ruined, and you know that's
the result of what began with Horan being set free
after being twisted and taught to see with more God's eyes.
All he does is carry out more Gods will. So
(46:28):
just some final thoughts here. Through his long torment of Horan,
More God sets in motion a series of events that
help him achieve his goal of being Master of BELLERIOND.
Speaker 2 (46:38):
In the end, he.
Speaker 1 (46:39):
Defeats Thingle without engaging in direct combat with him. Remember
Thingle held himself to be the master of BELLERIOND right,
and of course more God holds himself to be the
master of Arta, master of Fates and of course, therefore
the master of belleriond. But yeah, he defeats Thingle without
engaging in direct combat with him. Here, remember that when
he tried that in the first Battle of Blair Beyond,
(47:00):
Thingal defeated more Goth, right when more Goth had just returned,
and he assaults Dorioth and that's and and and Thingal's
forces beat back more God's forces, right, so you know,
direct combat, he was unable to assail him to defeat.
Speaker 2 (47:14):
Him, But now he defeats him.
Speaker 1 (47:16):
However, by his corruption of Huan and leveraging the silmarill
lust and sinister pride of Thingal, More Goth brings about
the ruin of Bealerion's longest standing kingdom and deaths of
numerous selves and dwarfs, even another kin slaying. Indeed, more
God's greatest power seems not so much in strength of arms,
but in spiritual manipulation and serpentine vision.
Speaker 2 (47:36):
So that's on. Yeah, any other final thoughts from you
on this chapter.
Speaker 3 (47:40):
Gretta, No, I mean, it's really just it's very what
does I mean? I feel like Tolien is definitely trying
to make a point with this chapter with regards to
the evil that can be wrought when you fall into the.
Speaker 1 (48:01):
Wrong hands, right, and when you learn to see what
the yeah, when you learn twisted.
Speaker 3 (48:06):
Eyes exactly exactly. Yeah, it kind of reminds me of
the what is that syndrome? It's you know, like where
kidnappers be into.
Speaker 1 (48:17):
Uh oh, Stockholm syndrome.
Speaker 3 (48:20):
I feel like it's it's a kind of like that, right,
I mean, except that he I think Horren comes to
realize that, you know, well.
Speaker 1 (48:28):
I feel like Stockholm syndrome is typically is at least
I understand it. It's the idea that like you become
sympathetic to the cause of your captors, right. So, like
the famous case is Patty Hurst I think was her name,
like this well, daughter of this uh wealthy family, and
she was captured by this terrorist group and held hostage
by them, and like you know, over time, like they
(48:50):
she kind of bought into their vision, right, right. And
I don't see who are in so much buying into
more's vision consciously, But it's kind of like a it's
kind of like a form of that, right is That's.
Speaker 2 (49:00):
What I mean?
Speaker 3 (49:00):
Yeah, It's just it's reminiscent of that because there's there's
brainwashing and manipulation involved mm hmm in both of these instances. Yeah,
but it's pretty incredible the how how much terrible stuff
more ofth is able to do without even lifting a finger.
Speaker 1 (49:22):
Yeah you know, yeah, yeah, it's almost like he's like,
why do I even need to bother with my own
my own armies, Like I just all I have to
do is capture, you know, capture individuals and then like twist,
you know, just twist them and torture them until they
see things the way I want to I want them
to see them, and then I just cut them loose,
right Yeah. Yeah, it's kind of it's kind of crazy.
(49:43):
So yeah, well, for those of you who are you know,
keeping score here in the in the Great Wars of BALERIOND,
we have no more uh nargothrond no more doriof three
of this three of the seven Sons of fan Or
(50:05):
Dead Thingle is dead, Melian's gone, many of the Great
many of the other Great Noldor are dead. At this point,
all that really is left standing is Gondolin, the Hidden Kingdom, right, Well,
that's why all that's really left. And then there's you know,
some kind of scattered remnants way further south, right things
(50:27):
are not looking good for Balerion at this point, not
good at all.
Speaker 3 (50:30):
No, yeah, definitely looking down.
Speaker 1 (50:33):
So we will continue our discussion of Silm mirillion, this
Silm million with chapter twenty three on the next episode.
All right, ready for some of my coup. Yeah, all right,
let's do it, do it?
Speaker 3 (50:46):
Oh, hold on, I was gonna pull mine out. Ball
suits first, Okay, rock, paper scissors, shoot, boom, you go first?
All right.
Speaker 1 (50:57):
Juran is set free, heart held by bitter memory. More
Goth strikes to kill. Mmmm.
Speaker 3 (51:06):
That's good. I thinks that's real good. I his mom.
Senseless deaths, the price of Faan Wars, oath lands lives
now lay in ruin nice.
Speaker 2 (51:21):
I like that boom.
Speaker 1 (51:23):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (51:23):
I can't decide if it should be a fan Ors
oath or fan ors Jewel. Yeah, maybe six and one
half ton know the other.
Speaker 2 (51:33):
Yeah, well yeah, Jewel oath, because.
Speaker 3 (51:36):
Who knows, maybe maybe that oath kind of it was
part of the kind of cursed, the sil morall and all.
Speaker 2 (51:44):
I think it does.
Speaker 1 (51:44):
I feel like there may be a passage that mentions that,
yeah that it like taints the yeah, taints like you
know that the I feel like because I think they
I think part of the oath like lays a curse
upon the Silmrells, right.
Speaker 3 (51:56):
Yeah, you know for that to Okay, I thought it
was just on the curse of I thought it was
just them vowing to like keep it word to like
the fan or suns vowing to keep their claim to
it regardless of the cost. But we don't need to
go into.
Speaker 1 (52:17):
That now, okay, So no, it's an interesting point though.
Speaker 2 (52:20):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (52:21):
Well, hey, if you want your haiku red on a
future episode, just send it to us and we will
if it's in time for that episode, we will read
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Will do our best to get back to you in
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Thank you to our amazing patrons, especially the.
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Yes we do and watching. All right, all right, we'll
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Speaker 1 (53:50):
Right on, Bye, y'all, good bye,
Hey there, fellow travelers. Our twenty twenty five Silmarillion journey
continues with chapter twenty two of Quintus Silmarillion, of the
Ruin of Dorioth. Of the Ruin of Dorioth is not
one of the longer chapters in the Selmarillion, but it
is packed with hugely significant events as we rapidly approach
the climactic catastrophes of the first Age. It all picks
(00:20):
up after the death of Turin and neonor who Aren's children.
While you're listening, check out silmguide dot com. That's s
I l mguide dot com for guides to individual chapters.
You can find that link in the show notes. To
support our work here, please visit patreon dot com slash
Tolkien Road Enjoy. Hey there, fellow travelers, Welcome to the
(00:41):
Tolkien Road, Episode three oh two.
Speaker 2 (00:43):
Greta, we're back.
Speaker 3 (00:45):
We're back.
Speaker 2 (00:46):
We're back, and we're.
Speaker 3 (00:47):
Better than ever, better than ever maybe hopefully, well that.
Speaker 1 (00:51):
Remains to be seen. But we're feeling feeling pretty darn good.
Speaker 3 (00:55):
Well, yeah, I guess tired.
Speaker 1 (00:58):
I told our patrons that we been on the road
for the last week, so we just returned from a
long though expected journey to the West Coast from here
in Tennessee, round trip over four thousand miles.
Speaker 2 (01:13):
It was pretty epic.
Speaker 3 (01:14):
It was actually forty five hundred.
Speaker 2 (01:18):
Yeah it was.
Speaker 3 (01:19):
It was a lot, so epic is the right word.
Speaker 2 (01:22):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (01:22):
We drove out to California to drop off our oldest child,
our daughter, at her freshman year of college, and we
decided to, you know, make a road trip out of it. Right,
epic epic road trip it was.
Speaker 3 (01:36):
It was epic, yeah, so and very very awesome. I
feel like I'm still processing, but it was amazing.
Speaker 2 (01:45):
Yeah, for sure, we get it for sure. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (01:47):
We saw lots of amazing places, yes, beautiful places.
Speaker 3 (01:52):
Yeah. And it was both of our first time out
to well my first time out to that part of California,
I mean.
Speaker 2 (01:59):
Really mine too.
Speaker 1 (01:59):
I don't think i'd ever actually been in the LA
area before. I've been in San Diego before, but never
in the LA area before, Okay.
Speaker 3 (02:07):
Yeah, and I only ever been to the very northern
part of California, so it was all new to me.
But yeah, it's amazing. Are we have such a beautiful country?
Speaker 2 (02:17):
Yeah?
Speaker 1 (02:18):
Yeah, it was truly, I mean beautiful, but like epic,
it's you know, well, it just it was like so
many things.
Speaker 3 (02:27):
Just vast, like vast, so small, I know, so so small.
I mean between the you know, just the like the
the land that just goes on forever. Yeah, and then
the you know, just the stars that you know, you
can see the stars so.
Speaker 1 (02:45):
Clearly everybody who lives west of the Mississippi is just like, oh,
here go, here go those East Eastlanders, those easter Lings.
Speaker 3 (02:53):
Right well, was always saw that that guy at that
place we stopped for coffee, and he said that the
I guess we were in Texas maybe, And he said,
what do they say about is that the land out
here is so flat? If your dog runs away, you
can watch them for two days.
Speaker 2 (03:05):
Yeah, something like that.
Speaker 3 (03:08):
It was clever, clever, it was clever. But yeah, just
the variety of landscape too, was pretty yeah, pretty fantastic.
Speaker 1 (03:15):
Yeah, yeah for sure. All right, well let's dive into
this chapter, shall we. Well, actually, before we do that,
we gotta take care of some business.
Speaker 2 (03:25):
Hey.
Speaker 1 (03:26):
You know, in this episode we'll be discussing chapter twenty
two of the Silm Million of the Ruin of Dorios.
Speaker 2 (03:30):
We hadn't mentioned that yet.
Speaker 1 (03:31):
That is our plan. Chapter twenty two of the silm million.
Speaker 3 (03:33):
We're actually going to just talk about our road trip.
Speaker 1 (03:35):
I would love to just road trip and we'll say
one thing about Tolkien and then.
Speaker 2 (03:39):
On the episode.
Speaker 3 (03:40):
I mean, I think Tolkien was probably a road tripper
himself kind of.
Speaker 1 (03:45):
But I mean, the UK isn't really conducive to those
kinds of road trips per se.
Speaker 2 (03:50):
It's not as large. I mean, I'm sure you could
do road trips like you know.
Speaker 3 (03:54):
Well three years.
Speaker 2 (03:56):
See.
Speaker 1 (03:56):
That's the cool thing about UK or Europe is like
you can probably pack a lot more into a road trip.
Speaker 3 (04:03):
You could. Everything's a lot closer.
Speaker 2 (04:04):
Yeah, exactly, Yeah, exactly.
Speaker 3 (04:06):
Yeah, although you probably at least when I was in Europe,
I rode the train everywhere. Yeah, so you either be
a mittrain tripper maybe m hm.
Speaker 1 (04:14):
Anyway, yeah, all right, well business, let's take care of
some business.
Speaker 3 (04:18):
I'll stop, I'll stop rabbit trailing you.
Speaker 2 (04:21):
You're good, okay.
Speaker 1 (04:22):
Before we get started, we'd like to have a double
up AERI five to our patrons, get them hands up there,
three two.
Speaker 2 (04:28):
One osed boom.
Speaker 1 (04:31):
Nice special. Thanks to this episode's executive producers, John R.
Caitlin of t with Tolkien, Jacob Lockham, John H.
Speaker 2 (04:37):
And Scotchy Bobo.
Speaker 1 (04:39):
Thanks, thank you all, and a shout out to our
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Ye truly appreciate it too.
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(05:11):
now you've got about let's see as we record this,
you've got like nine more days to take advantage of
the twenty percent off three hundred episode celebration deal over
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(05:34):
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Percent off.
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Over if you use your normal code right now until
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So take advantage while you can, take advantage while you can.
Speaker 1 (05:47):
Right good advice, all right now, we're ready to dive in.
So our quote of the week comes from chapter twenty two,
and it goes like this. At the last Meleon spoke
and said Horan Thalian, more Goth hath bewitched thee, for
he that seeth through more God's eyes, willing or unwilling,
(06:10):
seeth all things crooked.
Speaker 2 (06:14):
That was that.
Speaker 1 (06:15):
That was kind of the theme here, right, Yeah, more
Goths set in things evil, his evil schemes and motion
by getting people to see things through his eyes, through the.
Speaker 2 (06:25):
Eyes of.
Speaker 1 (06:27):
Suspicion, through the eyes of evil.
Speaker 3 (06:30):
Darkness, yes, yeah, twistedness, twisted, twisted, corruption, yes, corrupt, yes.
Speaker 1 (06:39):
So after the devastating tragedies of chapter twenty one, we
get more devastating tragedies. Chapter twenty two picks up with Hohoran,
now old and worn out by more Goth's tortures, set
free to wander aimlessly in the wasted regions of belleriond
He inadvertently sets in motion a series of events that
will lead to the end of the Kingdom of Dorioth,
(06:59):
once the hidden heart of Bellarion's free regions. So standard
disclaimer you should read this story before you listen to
this episode, And as with each episode, we won't be
covering every detail of this chapter, but instead doing our
best to hit the high points and unpack interesting and
important details. If we miss something, you guys want to
discuss more, let us know.
Speaker 2 (07:20):
Timeline, So.
Speaker 1 (07:23):
Roughly we're talking a year of the Sun five hundred
through Year of the Sun five eleven ish. Now, the
problem is that, you know, we've been using volume eleven
of the History of Middle Earth, the War of the Jewels.
We've been using the first part of this for our
timeline reference. But it gets a little complicated because Tolkien
(07:46):
kind of stopped with the Tale of the with the
timeline he was doing here and then it but it
picks up later on in here kind of so, and
there's some different there's some different calculations he did on
the different years and how they fall. So that's why
I say, like roughly five hundred to five eleven is
(08:07):
over the years in which this takes place, So not
exact in this case, but you know that's pretty close.
They all match up kind of in that area, all right.
So the chapter begins with the release of Horan. Now
you'll recall at the end of chapter twenty who are
in is captured by more Goth, and he's imprisoned and
(08:30):
he's kind of forced to see through more Goth's eyes
everything that's going on in Bealerion, especially as it relates
to his children. And in chapter twenty one we get
the story of his son Turin and of his daughter
neon or right, and all the things that befall them,
as well as what befalls more who are in his
(08:52):
wife so and and none of what happens to them
is good. None of what happens to them is good.
In fact, it's pretty horrible. So we will be talking
a lot more about the kind of this, this big
story of Whoran and of Turin and Leonora and Morwen.
(09:12):
We're talking a lot more about this in the not
do this in future when we actually go and do
chapter by chapter read through of the Children of Huron,
which is the novel version of this story that came
out about fifteen years ago. And so we'll get a
lot more familiar with these things as we continue down,
you know, the road a little further, probably probably early
part of next years is where I'm targeting right now.
(09:35):
But right now we're just going to consider kind of
the short version of this story and how Hooran and
his release by Morgoth at the beginning of this chapter
leads to the ruin of Dorioth, of this kingdom of Dorioth. So, yes,
Whorin is released, Whan is released? So why why would
hoo aren't release?
Speaker 2 (09:55):
Was he like? You know? What did he escape? Was
you know? Did he cut some kind of deal with
more goth like? Why was he released?
Speaker 1 (10:05):
So?
Speaker 2 (10:05):
Let's read?
Speaker 1 (10:06):
Uh, let's read one of the quotes that starts off
when the paragraphs that starts off this.
Speaker 2 (10:09):
Chapter to learn a little more. So, greta, do you
want to read? Starting here?
Speaker 1 (10:12):
Sure?
Speaker 3 (10:13):
Unhappy was the lot of huor of Hohoren. For all
that Morgoth knew of the working of his malice, Horan
knew also, But lies were mingled with the truth, and
aught that was good was hidden or distorted. In all ways,
Morgoth sought most to cast an evil light on those
things that Thingle and Melian had done, for he hated
(10:33):
them and feared them. When therefore he judged the time
to be ripe, he released Hoorin from his bondage, bidding
him go whether he would, And he feigned that in
this he was moved by pity as for an enemy
utterly defeated, but he lied for his purpose was that
Horan should still further his hatred for elves and men
(10:54):
ere he died.
Speaker 1 (10:56):
Yeah, so he feigns pity, but really Morgth is just
kind of tortured Horran to a point where where he's
he's got him kind of in the in the disposition
he wants him to be in to go and really
just do more Goths witting bidding, although albeit inadvertently right,
So you know, we think of you know, this, this
(11:17):
thing we talked about in chapter twenty one was this
idea that more Goth claims to be the master of
fates right and and Turin like that that name meant
master of fate right. So ultimately it's like this battle
between more between these people who want to be the
master of fate right and more Goth. It would seem
as the one who keeps winning, right, More Goth keeps winning,
(11:41):
and he knows, I mean, he's this great power, he's
this great spiritual power, right, he knows how to manipulate,
he knows how to to work with various spirits and
get them to do his bidding.
Speaker 2 (11:53):
Right. That's where a lot of that's you know, he this.
Speaker 1 (11:57):
Is literally the guy that that created the dark Lord Saron, right,
that gave us the dark Lord Suron by his own
you know, spiritual conniving. So you know, he's more Goth
is a is very capable of doing these kinds of things.
So he sets to who we're in about. He kind
of sets him free almost.
Speaker 2 (12:14):
Like he's this.
Speaker 1 (12:17):
You know, just he's just this ticking time bomb, you know,
kind of walking walking through the land, right, and you know,
just seeing like where he's you know, kind.
Speaker 2 (12:28):
Of wind him up.
Speaker 1 (12:30):
He's he's wound him up, and now he's setting him
free just to kind of wonder about and see what happens, right,
and he probably knows that there will be certain things
that he tries to do, right, knowing Horn, there's certain
things he's going to try to do, and that's why
more Goth, you know, sets him free here. So the
first thing that Hooran does is well not the first thing,
(12:51):
but kind of the first major thing that Hooran does
that kind of helps Morgoth and his designs is he
shows up near the secret entrance to Gondolin and starts
calling for Tor Goon right to let him in, right,
and of course more Goth is not setting Horrn free
and being like, go do your own thing, you know, not.
Speaker 2 (13:12):
Gonna worry about you anymore.
Speaker 1 (13:14):
He's spying on him the whole time, right, He's he's
he's got his minions looking out for him. And so,
you know, while he doesn't completely give away the location
of Gondolin because he doesn't know it for sure, meaning
Horn doesn't know for sure, nevertheless he arrives close enough
to where you know, the secret entrances that more Goth
can figure out, Okay, Gondolin's somewhere in this area, right,
(13:37):
Gondolin is somewhere in this area, So that's the first
thing he does, and of course Horn is not trying
to do that, but he's just you know, he's he's
searching for help.
Speaker 2 (13:45):
He's searching for help. So then really from.
Speaker 1 (13:51):
There, of course Torgon is at first unwilling to give
him help because he doesn't want to. He doesn't want
to expose, you know, the secret location of his kingdom.
He kind of rethinks it and is willing to. But
by the time he rethinks it, it's too late. It's
too late to get Horn, and Horran.
Speaker 2 (14:06):
Has moved on.
Speaker 1 (14:08):
So the next he he's basically wandering south right from
that pass, you know, from the Veil of Syrion, and
wanders south into the region of Brethel, which is the
forest region directly south of that, and starts wondering towards Nargothrond,
which is even further south. And as he gets south
of Brethel, he comes upon Morwyn right. So at this
(14:33):
point turn Neonor are both dead and but Morwyn is
still very much alive, and so let's read about their
interaction here. Sitting in the shadow of the stone, there
was a woman bent over her knees, and as Horn
stood there silence, she cast back her tatterhood and lifted
her face.
Speaker 2 (14:54):
Gray.
Speaker 1 (14:54):
She was and old, but suddenly her eyes looked into his,
and he knew her, for though they were wild and
full of fear, that light still gleamed in them that
long ago had earned for her the name Elithwyn, proudest
and most beautiful of mortal women in the days of old.
You come at last, she said, I have waited too long.
It was a dark road. I have come as I could,
(15:16):
he answered, But you are too late, said Morwen.
Speaker 2 (15:19):
They are lost.
Speaker 1 (15:22):
I know it, he said, but you are not, But
Morwin said, almost, I am spent. I shall go with
the sun now, little time is left. If you know,
tell me how did she find him? But Hoorn did
not answer, and they sat beside the stone and did
not speak again. And when the sun went down, Morwyn
(15:42):
sighed and clasped his hand and was still, and Houarin
knew that she had died. He looked down at her
in the twilight, and it seemed to him that the
lines of grief and cruel hardship were smoothed away. She
was not conquered, he said, and he closed her eyes
and sat unmoving beside her.
Speaker 2 (15:58):
In the night.
Speaker 1 (15:58):
As the knight drew down, the waters of Kabed n'harramrth
roared on, but he heard no sound, and he saw
nothing and felt nothing, for his heart was stone within him.
But there came a chill wind that drove sharp rain
into his face, and he was roused, and anger rose
in him like smoke, mastering reason, so that all his
desire was to seek vengeance for his wrongs and for
(16:21):
the wrongs of his kin, accusing in his anguish all
those who ever had dealings with them. Then he rose up,
and he made a grave. For more, when above kabed
na'hor amarh on the west side of the stone, and
upon it he cut these words. Here lies also mor
when elith Wyn.
Speaker 2 (16:38):
So more when.
Speaker 1 (16:39):
They briefly exchanged words, Hoorin is not does not want
to tell her really what befell their children and more
when passes away, Although unconquered, as it says here, unconquered
in spirit, however Hoorn it would seem, is conquered in spirit,
(17:02):
you know by this And is the wind, is the
rain hits his face, It says he's just filled with
this desire for vengeance, just just wants to avenge everything
at this point. And you know, it's like, who can
blame him right after everything they've been through. Gosh, you know,
it's what does he have left?
Speaker 2 (17:20):
Right? What does he have left? But just anger?
Speaker 1 (17:22):
You know, I think i'd certainly struggle not to feel
very bitter and hateful at that point, after everything, after
losing everything, you know, trying to trying to give so much,
trying to be heroic and having all you know, this
fate returned to you right the death of your children
before your time, the death of your wife just as
you found her after being separated from her for years,
(17:45):
all the tortures he endured, the deaths of other friends.
Speaker 2 (17:50):
It's it's horrible, you know it is.
Speaker 3 (17:53):
I find myself wondering, like what, I guess I'm wondering why,
you know, why more when like it almost seemed like
like who were In returning to her? Was that closure
she needed to die? Because it I guess what I'm
(18:16):
trying to express is that, like I wonder why she
waited till now to die. It just seems or that
could have also been the working of Morgoth, because it
just seems incredibly cruel right to lose someone again for
the second time, right after you've found them and where reunited.
(18:37):
So maybe maybe that's it, because I mean, unless my
other thought, I guess is that maybe who are In
confirm for her that the kids, that their children were
indeed dead. Maybe she was still holding on to a
threat of hope. I'm not sure. Yeah, but sad, very sad.
Speaker 1 (18:57):
Yeah, And maybe so and maybe too maybe I misread
this too, But as I look at it again, how
did she find him?
Speaker 2 (19:04):
Maybe it's not.
Speaker 1 (19:05):
Maybe she understands what happened to their children. It's just
a question of like how they found how they found
each other, and at that Huorin doesn't have anything to say. Yeah,
I mean I think probably she you know, she held
on until she saw him again. It just so there
could be that, you know, that closure, that closure for them.
Speaker 3 (19:25):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (19:26):
So yeah, just very very sad. End to more when.
Speaker 3 (19:33):
What does this mean? Here? It says here lies also
more when like, is there another grape? There? Is there someone?
The word also there.
Speaker 2 (19:43):
That I think that may I think they are.
Speaker 1 (19:45):
I think this is the place where perhaps both Turin
and Leonora died. That's a good question.
Speaker 3 (19:52):
Oh, okay, okay, because it's okay. Oh is that the
river that that they uh that nia Nor threw herself.
Speaker 1 (20:04):
Into let's see here. So yeah, I'm not sure.
Speaker 2 (20:14):
I didn't.
Speaker 1 (20:15):
I don't have that at the ready to understand that,
but that would be my that would be my hunch
that that's what happened, or at least one of them
was there.
Speaker 3 (20:28):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (20:30):
Yeah, So well from here, who are In continues further
south to Nargothrond, which is, of course, has been sacked
at this point, and the only person he finds there
is Meme, the petty dwarf right who we met in
chapter twenty one, and let's read about a little bit
about his interaction here with with mem.
Speaker 2 (20:57):
Well, let me just say this.
Speaker 1 (20:58):
He confronts me, and you know, is essentially like, hey,
what are you doing here? I think I have a
right to be here and to do what I want
in this kingdom because of my son being the slayer
of Glawrung. So you know, we get this sense that
Hooran knows about all the things that his children have
(21:19):
done right, and he's you know, because he's been seeing
them all through the eyes of more Goth. Yeah, so
he has this confrontation with me. So, Greta, do you
want to read this snippet here?
Speaker 3 (21:29):
Then Meme, in great fear, besought who were in to
take what he would, but to spare his life. But
Horren gave no heed to his prayer and slew him
there before the doors of Nargathrond. Then he entered in
and stayed awhile in that dreadful place where the treasures
of Valanor lay strewn upon the floors in darkness and decay.
But it is told that when Huorin came forth from
(21:51):
the wreck of Nargathron and stood again beneath the sky.
He bore with him out of all that great horde,
but one thing only.
Speaker 2 (21:59):
And that one thing is the necklace of the dwarves,
right the.
Speaker 1 (22:04):
Uh this, you know, this great necklace that was a
thing of great beauty, and yeah, the now Glimir. And
he takes that with him, leaving all the other treasures
of Elinor behind, because he doesn't really care about the.
Speaker 2 (22:17):
Treasure so much.
Speaker 1 (22:18):
He has one purpose for this Nowvlimir, for this necklace,
and that's to take.
Speaker 2 (22:22):
It to Dorioth.
Speaker 1 (22:24):
So he journeys east to Dorioth and uh and has
an audience with thingle and and this is this is
what takes place. Horn made no answer to the king,
but drew forth from beneath his cloak that one thing
which he had taken with him out of Nargathron, And
(22:44):
that was no lesser treasure than the now Glomir, the
necklace of the dwarfs that was made for Finrod Felagen
long years before by the craftsmen of Nagrad and Belugust,
most famed of all their works in the elder days,
imprized by Fenrod while he lived above all the treasures
of Nargathron and Hoorn cast it at the feet of
Thingal with wild and bitter words. Receive thou thy fee.
(23:05):
He cried for thy fair keeping of my children and
my wife. For this is the Nauglomir, whose name is
known to many among elves and men. And I bring
it to thee out of the darkness of Nargathrond, where
Fenrod thy Kinsman left it behind him when he set
forth with Baron, son of Barrahir, to fulfill the errand
of Thingol of Dorioth. Then Thingule looked upon the great
(23:27):
treasure and knew it for the Nowglomir. And well did
he understand Hourin's intent. But being filled with pity, he
restrained his wrath and endured Hourin scorn. And at the
last Milion spoke and said, hoorn Thalian, Morgath hath bewitch thee,
for he that seeth through Morgoth's eyes, willing or unwilling,
seeth all things crooked. Long was toren thy son fostered
(23:50):
in the halls of Minnigroth, and shown love and honor
as the son of the king. And it was not
by the King's will nor by mine that he came
never back to Doriath. And afterwards thy wife and thy
daughter were harbored here with honor and good will. And
we sought by all means that we might to dissuade
Morwin from the road to Nargathrond. With a voice of Morgoth,
(24:12):
thou dost now upbraid thy friends, And hearing the words
of Melion, hourin stood moveless, and he gazed long into
the eyes of the Queen, and there in Menigroth, defended
still by the girdle of Melion, from the darkness of
the enemy, he read the truth of all that was done,
and tasted at last the fullness of woe that was
measured for him by Morgoth Baluglier. And he spoke no
(24:35):
more of what was past, But stooping, lifted up the
now glomere from where it lay before Thingle's chair, and
he gave it to him, saying, received now Lord the
necklace of the dwarfs, as a gift from one who
has nothing, and as a memorial of Houron of dor Loomen.
Speaker 2 (24:50):
For now my fate is.
Speaker 1 (24:51):
Fulfilled, and the purpose of Morgoth achieved. But I am
his thrall no longer. Then he turned away and passed
out from the thousand caves, and all that saw him
fell back before his face, and none sought to withstand
his going going, nor did no excuse me, nor did
any know whether he went. But it is said that
Horan would not live there after, being bereft of all
(25:13):
purpose and desire, and cast himself at last into the
Western Sea. And so ended the mightiest of the warriors
of mortal men. So a little something there to wet
my whistle after that long passage. So Horan we we
(25:33):
learned of Hoorn's fate casting himself into the Western Sea.
He delivers the noaglomere, you know, really delivers it as
a as a way of spiting thingle as a way
of you know, giving just some little taste of vengeance.
And it's only Melion's words that really, you know, set him,
you know it. It seemed to set him straight somewhat, right,
(25:57):
I mean, yeah, I guess it all depends on on
which way you read it. I think he probably he
sounds to me like he's a little bit if he's
a little bit less saucy, if you will.
Speaker 2 (26:08):
Uh.
Speaker 1 (26:08):
And the second part of his talking, then he is
the first part after million after million, uh, you know,
lectures him.
Speaker 3 (26:17):
Yeah, maybe maybe. I guess if they truly had set
him straight, he wouldn't have killed himself.
Speaker 2 (26:24):
Yeah, I mean he doesn't.
Speaker 1 (26:26):
Well, I think he you know, I think that was
his uh, I mean, what else does he have to
live for at that point? You know, Yeah, he wasn't
said completely No, he wasn't set completely straight. I think
he's maybe he maybe finishes here less better than he
than he started, but but still like better, less better
towards others. But and he realizes that he's he's kind
(26:49):
of done the will of more Goth here. But but
you know, he still has he's still filled with despair
at this point, right, because what does he have to
it for?
Speaker 2 (27:00):
At this point?
Speaker 3 (27:01):
It's true, Yeah.
Speaker 1 (27:03):
You know, I mean it's it's it's like first with
his children, you know, it's just like one bad thing
after another that he has to witness.
Speaker 2 (27:11):
And then and.
Speaker 1 (27:12):
It's almost you know, we talked about Turin being this
figure that's like you know, it's it's just like he's
pushing everyone that comes into contact with him, like somehow
inadvertently it's a it's bad news for that other person, right,
And it would seem that Horan is kind of completing that.
What his son started is kind of completing that too.
Speaker 2 (27:35):
You know.
Speaker 1 (27:36):
Yeah, they're just cursed, right, they're cursed abs. So you know,
again we have this theme of more Goth. That more
Goth one of the one of the chief evils he
does is causing people to see manipulating their vision, uh,
(28:00):
to see things in an evil light, to see things crooked,
to see things askew rather than rather than rightly, rather
than the way they're meant to be seen, and so
much about.
Speaker 2 (28:13):
You know, we when we view the world in a.
Speaker 1 (28:19):
You know, in an evil way, in a skewed way,
that cause that leads to evil action, right, that leads
to the wrong action, that leads to us inspiring that
same vision in others, right, and and and thus causing
that evil action in others. So you know, it's this
is like again one of the chief powers of more Goth.
(28:41):
One of the chief things he executes through, uh, you know,
through who are in in all this? All?
Speaker 2 (28:48):
Right? Well now who are in is gone? But the
chapter is not ended.
Speaker 1 (28:53):
And what we what happens next is that thingle is
like okay, well I've got this necklace this now, glimir,
you know what would look really great on this nove
lamir on this necklace my silverrell, right, because he's got
that sil Merrell. Right, he's got the silmrell that Baron.
Baron won, well, Baron and Luthian really won together. That
(29:14):
was the bride price that that single tasked Baron with.
And then thing and then Luthian helps, you know, Baron
obtain the obtain the silver Merle from the iron crown
of Wargoth. And Thingle has that he has that sil merell.
So he's like, he goes to the dwarves and he says, hey,
how about you take this necklace and you put that
(29:34):
sil merell on it, right, and he's gonna have, man,
he is just gonna have the mother of all that leads.
Oh yeah, so sounds like, you know, I mean, a
very kingly gift, if you will, And it says the
dwarves when he took it to them, the dwarves looked
upon the work of their fathers, and they beheld with
(29:54):
wonder the shining jewel of fan Ore, and they were
filled with the great lust to possess them and carry
them off to their far homes in the mountains. But
they dissembled their mind, and consented to the task of
putting some morellah, of putting the sorel on the necklace. However,
that doesn't really last very long, that meaning they don't
dissemble for very long. It goes on, by what right
(30:20):
does the Elvin king lay claim to the Nauglimir that
was made by our fathers for Fenrod Felgand, who is dead.
It is come to him but by the hand of Huran,
the man of Dorloman, who took it as a thief
out of the darkness of Nargothrond. But Thingal perceived their
hearts and saw well that, desiring the soilmrill, they sought
but a pretext and fair cloak for their true intent.
(30:41):
And in his wrath and pride he gave no heed
to his peril, but spoke to them in scorned saying,
how do ye of uncouth race dare to demand aught
of me? Elu Thingal, lord of Bellerion, whose life began
by the waters of Quivian, and years uncounted ere the
fathers of the stunted people awoke, and standing tall and
proud among them, he bade them, with shameful words, be
(31:03):
gone unrequited out of Dorioth. Then the lust of the
dwarves was kindled to rage by the words of the king,
and they rose up about him and laid hands on
him and slew him as he stood. So died in
the deep places of Minnigroth. Elowy Singolo death of King
of Dorioth, who alone of all the children of Illubatar,
was joined with one of the Aor. And he who
(31:25):
alone of the forsaken elves had seen the light of
the trees of Eleanor with his last sight, gazed upon
the Silmarill. Then the dwarves, taking the Nowglomir, passed out
of Minigroth and fled eastward through Regian. But Tidings went
swiftly through the forest, and few of the company came
over Aros, for they were pursued to the death as
they sought the eastward road. And then Nowglomir was retaken
(31:46):
and brought back in bitter grief to Melion the Queen.
So you know, really we have the lust and deception
of the dwarfs, but thingle being filled with pride and wrath.
So we just have this clashing of of vices here
(32:08):
between these two groups of people. And uh, I mean
Thingal says some pretty says some pretty nasty things to them,
right of course, you know, the dwarves at first are like, well,
we kind of think we should have this right, and
Thingals like, you know, instead of being like, you know,
wait a minute, right, I mean it, not only does
he say these awful things to them, but he's like
(32:28):
really rash about it too, right, and he doesn't even
like think like, uh, dude, you're gonna get yourself killed.
It's like, you know, you're in you're surrounded by dwarves
right now, and you're gonna you're gonna say all these
things about them, Like that's not smart, So, you know,
very ugly scene. It's not it's it's not a kinseling
because it's not the dwarves and the elves, but it's
(32:48):
you know, again we see that the Silmarillion like inspires
for for being this like holy jewel, It inspires all
of this evil in those who into contact with it, right,
very few are able to very few are kind of
able to to maybe see it right, you know, to
(33:10):
to behold it's light in the right way instead of
being a light that they want to possess. Right, So
again we see that theme of like, how do you
see the world. How do you see the things of
the world?
Speaker 2 (33:20):
Right?
Speaker 1 (33:21):
Do you see them as Illuvatar would want you to
see them? Or do you see it as as.
Speaker 2 (33:27):
More Goth would want you to see it? Right?
Speaker 1 (33:29):
Illuvatar would look at the jewels and say, you know, yes,
it's a holy light. But it's meant to be the
possession of all, right, And that was you know, the
original intention of it, right, But it meant to be
the treasure of all. But in the possession of but
(33:50):
in the vision of Thingle and of the dwarves, it
becomes this thing to battle over, and ultimately thingles life
is ended, and and then Dwarfs. So this begins this
process of the Silmurle, like kind of like changing lots
of hands in a lot of ways. The Silmuril goes
from Thingle, and then the dwarves murder Thingle take it.
(34:11):
The dwarves are stopped when they try to escape from Dorioth,
and it's brought back to Melion.
Speaker 2 (34:17):
Meleon gives it to Mablung.
Speaker 1 (34:19):
Who is one of the warriors of the Great Warriors
of Dorioth, and Mablung is supposed to keep it.
Speaker 2 (34:26):
To keep it safe. Well, other dwarfs come.
Speaker 1 (34:30):
Well, first of all, we should say Meleon leaves Melion
it it now has no reason to be in Dorioth
anymore because Thingle is dead. She's filled with grief, and
she departs and she's no more right, she's no more
in Valerion. Bad news, right, It's like, well, we had
a we had a mayar you know, that could kind
of help us with their mayar powers. No longer, right,
(34:52):
she remember she was the one that was created that
girdle around the Kingdom of Dorioth. Right, that protection for
the Kingdom of Dorioth. So that's no longer there, And
so the dwarves come back. More dwarves come back, and
they assault, They assault Doriof and they kill Mablung and
take the Sommarole with the now Glimir on it. Well,
(35:14):
that leads to the next big interesting thing that happens here.
So just as the dwarves are once again escaping with
the Sommarll and the Nwglimir, what should happen but Baron
comes back into the picture. All of a sudden, Barons
swooping in, bounding in from the left right. Baron returns right,
(35:34):
and it's like whoa. I thought Baron and Luthian were
out of the story at this point, But not quite
yet a little bit more from Baron and Luthian. All right, So, Greta,
would you like to read? Would you like to read
this passage?
Speaker 2 (35:49):
Please?
Speaker 3 (35:51):
Now word went swiftly among the elves of oh Syriond
that a great host of dwarves bearing gear of war
had come down out of the mountains and passed over
again at the ford of Stones. These tidings came soon
to Baron and Luthian, and in that time also a
messenger came to them out of Dorioth, telling of what
had befallen there. Then Baron arose and left Tolgalen, and
(36:13):
summoning to him dioor his son, they went north to
the river Ascar, and with them went many of the
green elves of Osyriond. Thus it came to pass that
when the dwarfs of Nagrond, returning from Menegroth with diminished host,
came again to sarn Athrad, they were assailed by unseen enemies,
(36:33):
for they climbed up Gelon's bank and burdened with the
spoils of Dorioth. Suddenly all the woods were filled with
the sound of elven horns, and shafts sped upon them
from every side. There very many of the Dwarfs were
slain in the first onset, but some, escaping from the ambush,
held together and fled east towards towards the mountains. And
(36:53):
as they climbed the long slopes beneath Mount Dolmed, there
came forth as shepherds of the trees, and they drove
the Dwarfs into the shadowy woods of Irad Lindun, whence,
it is said, came never one to climb the high
passes that led to their homes. In that battle by Sarnathrad,
Baron fought his last fight, and himself slew the lord
(37:16):
of Nogrond, and wrested from him the necklace of the Dwarfs.
But he, dying, laid his curse upon all the treasure.
Then Baron gazed in wonder on the self same jewel
of Feyenoor that he had cut from Morgoth's iron crown,
now shining set Ahmed, now shining set amid gold and
gems by the cunning of the Dwarfs, and he washed
(37:37):
it clean of blood in the waters of the river,
and when all was finished, the treasure of Dorioth was
drowned in the river Ascar, and from that time the
river was named anew Rath Loyel the Golden Bed. But
Baron took the nowglomere and returned to Tolgalden. Little did
ease the grief of Luthian to learn that the lord
of Noagrond was slain, and many dwarfs beside. It is
(38:00):
said in song that Luthian, wearing that necklace and that
immortal jewel, was the vision of greatest beauty in glory
that has ever been outside the realm of Eleanor. And
for a little while the land of the dead that
lived became like a vision of the land of the Valar.
And no place has been since so fair, so fruitful,
or so filled with light.
Speaker 1 (38:20):
Yeah, so a couple of really interesting things here. So
we have this mention of the shepherds of the trees, right,
so I'm inentse right, So apparently iNTS kind of team
up with Baron here to attack the attack the dwarfs
who are trying to get away with the selmrill. And
that's cool, right, that's really cool. So you know, this
(38:43):
is one of the only other references we have to
ens outside of Lord of.
Speaker 3 (38:47):
The Rings, and it seems appropriate that they would not
be friendly toward dwarves. Yeah, just given what we know
about dwarves.
Speaker 1 (38:55):
Yeah, well and I think we if we you know,
we can think back to there's some moments you know
the well me just think about it, right. So Ala,
So the other reference in the Silmarillion is in Alai
and Yovanna the right chapter two. The nts literally come
about because Alai creates the dwarves, right, So they're like
they're like Alai's Yvanna's response to Alay's creation of the dwarves, right. Yeah,
(39:19):
and yeah, that's you know, this is one of the
only things we see. This would be obviously a very
cool thing to see maybe one of these days on
you know, adapted to visual.
Speaker 2 (39:29):
Medium of some sort.
Speaker 1 (39:31):
But we also get this word of Luthian that she,
you know, she and it somehow seems appropriate that she's
the one that's going to have this, you know, where
this necklace with the silm Merle for the longest period
of time, and it's like between Luthian and then the
Silmurle together, you know, here in this u forested region
in the southeast. It's like a little a little part
(39:52):
of vallen Or right, uh, comes to life in Valerion.
Speaker 2 (39:55):
Right.
Speaker 1 (39:56):
So it's just you know, it's cool and uh and
and it again. And it's like if anybody is going
to if anybody is going to bear the Silmrll worthily,
it would seem like Luthian would be the one to
do so.
Speaker 3 (40:09):
Right, yes, yeah, And just given what you were what
we were talking about a little bit ago about how
very few are able to actually possess the soil Morell
without it overtaking them, it seems like this this is
has the fact that Baron and Luthian are able to
possess the su Morral without without the consequences of like
(40:35):
the other people that have possessed it. I feel like
it sets them apart in some way, right. It speaks
to their characters and and and just the kind of
you know, creatures that they are, that they're and that
Luthian is able to especially Luthian is able to wear
it without it having a negative effect on her. Yeah,
(40:59):
makes them in a way hollowed right right right.
Speaker 1 (41:02):
Baron, perhaps because his only desire for the Somerl was
in order to obtain Luthian.
Speaker 3 (41:07):
Right, Yeah, it was a selfless.
Speaker 1 (41:10):
And now that he has Luthian, he no longer has
need of no need of the sorell right.
Speaker 2 (41:18):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (41:18):
And so but in a way, it's like you know,
then and and Luthian never seems to have had any
desire for it. And maybe that's because she has the
you know, the the Mayar blood, the good nature of
Melian within her right, that she inherited that good nature
from her mother, that would somehow seem fitting. But but yeah,
(41:40):
she's able to simply bear it and to maybe even
use it in the proper fashion to beautify and glorify
the land about her and to help, you know, make
it a place of peace. Uh, and you know, reflecting
some of what Vallenor was once.
Speaker 3 (41:56):
Was, right, little piece of heaven on earth.
Speaker 2 (41:59):
That's right, that's right.
Speaker 1 (42:01):
Well, we learn a little bit more at this point
about Dior, who is the lone child, I believe the
lone child, but is the son of Baron and Luthian.
And we learned that Dior is uh. He he goes
shortly after this, he goes back to Dorioth and to
(42:22):
really re establish the kingdom. He goes back to Menegroth
and and and briefly re establishes this kingdom of Dorioth.
And shortly after he's there, a messenger comes and delivers
a box to him, and in that box is the
now Glimir with the Silmarle upon it. And we learned
at that time, and that's kind of he reads into
(42:44):
this that Baron and Luthian have finally departed you know,
Middle Earth for good and it and it says that
their fate would be the fate of men, right, that
they're to pass out of this world into a faith
that's unknown, right, and that's what they you know, that's
what Luthian had chosen for herself, that so Louthian had
chosen for herself. So Dior now has the now Glimir
(43:04):
and the Soelmrill and it's not much longer until the
sons of Fan or hear this.
Speaker 2 (43:12):
And what's uh, what are the sons of Fan are
going to do? Well? They are gonna remember the oath
that they took with their.
Speaker 1 (43:17):
Father, and and that means bad news for Dior.
Speaker 2 (43:21):
So let's read this passage.
Speaker 1 (43:28):
Let's see actually, uh, not that one. Oh, here we go,
but now hearing of the renewal of Dorioth and of
Dior's pride. The seven gathered again from wandering, and they
sent to him to claim their own. But Dior returned
no answer, for the sons of fan Or and Caligorm
stirred up his brothers to prepare an assault upon Dorioth.
They came at unawares in the middle of winter and
(43:50):
fought with Dior in the Thousand Caves, and so befell
the second slang of Elf by Elf. There fell Caligorm
by Dior's hand, and there fell Kurapin and dark Karnthr.
But Dior was slain also in Nimloth, his wife and
the cruel servants of Caligorm seized his young sons and
left them to starve in the forest of this Methros.
(44:10):
Mathros indeed repented and sought for them long in the
woods of Dorioth, but his search was unavailing, and the
fate of Elurd and Elurin no tale tells. Thus Dorioth
was destroyed and never rose again. But the sons of
fan Or gained not what they sought, for a remnant
of the people fled before them, and with them was
el Wing Dior's daughter, and they escaped, and hearing with
(44:34):
them the Silmarill, they came, and bearing with them the
sil marl they came in time to the mouths of
the river Syrian by the sea. So we have three
of the sons of fan Or perish. And as they
in this fight to obtain the Silmurle from Dior, Dior
Nimloth and their two sons, Dior Nimloth die. Their two
sons are left in the wilderness and never heard from again.
(44:55):
Only el Wing, who is the daughter of Dior and Nimloth,
is gapes and she with the some Marrell down to
the mouth of the river Syrion. So there's four sons
of fan Ore left. Mathros of course repents, right, he's
he's you know, of all the sons of fan Or,
it would seem that Mythros is the one that is
(45:17):
is like it seems like redemption might be possible for him.
Speaker 3 (45:20):
He's got a little inkling of good, you.
Speaker 1 (45:22):
Know, just like cut just like little by little, like
different things are happening that make him think like maybe
I'm maybe we're wrong about this about you know, the
the severity of this oath, and and that sort of thing.
But ultimately it's l Wing that escapes with the so
Marrell as a child and with the right no, no, no,
(45:45):
not with the sons of She escapes from the sons.
Speaker 3 (45:47):
Of fail Oh, it is the remnant of the remnant.
Speaker 2 (45:50):
Of Dorioth flees to the mouth of Syrion.
Speaker 3 (45:54):
So so they there's one descendant of Baron Luthian left,
one descendant right, and that's l who will come back
into the story of course.
Speaker 1 (46:03):
So yeah, lots of folks, lots of folks dying, the
second kN slaying Dorioth is ruined, and you know that's
the result of what began with Horan being set free
after being twisted and taught to see with more God's eyes.
All he does is carry out more Gods will. So
(46:28):
just some final thoughts here. Through his long torment of Horan,
More God sets in motion a series of events that
help him achieve his goal of being Master of BELLERIOND.
Speaker 2 (46:38):
In the end, he.
Speaker 1 (46:39):
Defeats Thingle without engaging in direct combat with him. Remember
Thingle held himself to be the master of BELLERIOND right,
and of course more God holds himself to be the
master of Arta, master of Fates and of course, therefore
the master of belleriond. But yeah, he defeats Thingle without
engaging in direct combat with him. Here, remember that when
he tried that in the first Battle of Blair Beyond,
(47:00):
Thingal defeated more Goth, right when more Goth had just returned,
and he assaults Dorioth and that's and and and Thingal's
forces beat back more God's forces, right, so you know,
direct combat, he was unable to assail him to defeat.
Speaker 2 (47:14):
Him, But now he defeats him.
Speaker 1 (47:16):
However, by his corruption of Huan and leveraging the silmarill
lust and sinister pride of Thingal, More Goth brings about
the ruin of Bealerion's longest standing kingdom and deaths of
numerous selves and dwarfs, even another kin slaying. Indeed, more
God's greatest power seems not so much in strength of arms,
but in spiritual manipulation and serpentine vision.
Speaker 2 (47:36):
So that's on. Yeah, any other final thoughts from you
on this chapter.
Speaker 3 (47:40):
Gretta, No, I mean, it's really just it's very what
does I mean? I feel like Tolien is definitely trying
to make a point with this chapter with regards to
the evil that can be wrought when you fall into the.
Speaker 1 (48:01):
Wrong hands, right, and when you learn to see what
the yeah, when you learn twisted.
Speaker 3 (48:06):
Eyes exactly exactly. Yeah, it kind of reminds me of
the what is that syndrome? It's you know, like where
kidnappers be into.
Speaker 1 (48:17):
Uh oh, Stockholm syndrome.
Speaker 3 (48:20):
I feel like it's it's a kind of like that, right,
I mean, except that he I think Horren comes to
realize that, you know, well.
Speaker 1 (48:28):
I feel like Stockholm syndrome is typically is at least
I understand it. It's the idea that like you become
sympathetic to the cause of your captors, right. So, like
the famous case is Patty Hurst I think was her name,
like this well, daughter of this uh wealthy family, and
she was captured by this terrorist group and held hostage
by them, and like you know, over time, like they
(48:50):
she kind of bought into their vision, right, right. And
I don't see who are in so much buying into
more's vision consciously, But it's kind of like a it's
kind of like a form of that, right is That's.
Speaker 2 (49:00):
What I mean?
Speaker 3 (49:00):
Yeah, It's just it's reminiscent of that because there's there's
brainwashing and manipulation involved mm hmm in both of these instances. Yeah,
but it's pretty incredible the how how much terrible stuff
more ofth is able to do without even lifting a finger.
Speaker 1 (49:22):
Yeah you know, yeah, yeah, it's almost like he's like,
why do I even need to bother with my own
my own armies, Like I just all I have to
do is capture, you know, capture individuals and then like twist,
you know, just twist them and torture them until they
see things the way I want to I want them
to see them, and then I just cut them loose,
right Yeah. Yeah, it's kind of it's kind of crazy.
(49:43):
So yeah, well, for those of you who are you know,
keeping score here in the in the Great Wars of BALERIOND,
we have no more uh nargothrond no more doriof three
of this three of the seven Sons of fan Or
(50:05):
Dead Thingle is dead, Melian's gone, many of the Great
many of the other Great Noldor are dead. At this point,
all that really is left standing is Gondolin, the Hidden Kingdom, right, Well,
that's why all that's really left. And then there's you know,
some kind of scattered remnants way further south, right things
(50:27):
are not looking good for Balerion at this point, not
good at all.
Speaker 3 (50:30):
No, yeah, definitely looking down.
Speaker 1 (50:33):
So we will continue our discussion of Silm mirillion, this
Silm million with chapter twenty three on the next episode.
All right, ready for some of my coup. Yeah, all right,
let's do it, do it?
Speaker 3 (50:46):
Oh, hold on, I was gonna pull mine out. Ball
suits first, Okay, rock, paper scissors, shoot, boom, you go first?
All right.
Speaker 1 (50:57):
Juran is set free, heart held by bitter memory. More
Goth strikes to kill. Mmmm.
Speaker 3 (51:06):
That's good. I thinks that's real good. I his mom.
Senseless deaths, the price of Faan Wars, oath lands lives
now lay in ruin nice.
Speaker 2 (51:21):
I like that boom.
Speaker 1 (51:23):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (51:23):
I can't decide if it should be a fan Ors
oath or fan ors Jewel. Yeah, maybe six and one
half ton know the other.
Speaker 2 (51:33):
Yeah, well yeah, Jewel oath, because.
Speaker 3 (51:36):
Who knows, maybe maybe that oath kind of it was
part of the kind of cursed, the sil morall and all.
Speaker 2 (51:44):
I think it does.
Speaker 1 (51:44):
I feel like there may be a passage that mentions that,
yeah that it like taints the yeah, taints like you
know that the I feel like because I think they
I think part of the oath like lays a curse
upon the Silmrells, right.
Speaker 3 (51:56):
Yeah, you know for that to Okay, I thought it
was just on the curse of I thought it was
just them vowing to like keep it word to like
the fan or suns vowing to keep their claim to
it regardless of the cost. But we don't need to
go into.
Speaker 1 (52:17):
That now, okay, So no, it's an interesting point though.
Speaker 2 (52:20):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (52:21):
Well, hey, if you want your haiku red on a
future episode, just send it to us and we will
if it's in time for that episode, we will read
it on the episode. And if you don't get it
to us in time, then just drop it into the comments below.
All right, Subscribe, rate, and review us on iTunes or
the platform of your choice. If you are a five
star fan of The Tolkien Road, you can really help
us out by heading over to iTunes or your preferred
source for the show and dropping us or reading and review.
(52:44):
When do that, it helps get the word out about
the Tolkien Road, which helps us to keep on everring on.
All right, and don't forget to drop us a line
you can. The easiest way is obviously in the comments
on YouTube, but send it wherever you can find us,
and we.
Speaker 2 (52:57):
Will do our best to get back to you in
a timely fashion. All right.
Speaker 1 (53:02):
Thank you to our amazing patrons, especially the.
Speaker 2 (53:05):
Following, John R.
Speaker 3 (53:07):
Caitlyn of T with Tolkien.
Speaker 2 (53:08):
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And Caitlyn H. Thanks y'all, yes, thank you.
Speaker 1 (53:40):
I appreciate the support of our patrons, and uh we
appreciate everybody for listening.
Speaker 3 (53:45):
Yes we do and watching. All right, all right, we'll
talk to you next time, guys
Speaker 1 (53:50):
Right on, Bye, y'all, good bye,
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