August 4, 2025 • 62 mins
Our 2025 Silmarillion journey continues with Chapter 24 of Quenta Silmarillion - Of the Voyage of Eärendil and the War of Wrath!
In Chapter 24, the First Age comes to a cataclysmic end, as a hero undertakes a desperate journey to Valinor, and the powers of Aman gather for a transoceanic assault on the forces and strongholds of Morgoth!
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To support our work here, please visit Patreon.com/TolkienRoad.
Also, I've just launched a new Substack here: https://tolkienroad.substack.com/
Enjoy!
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In Chapter 24, the First Age comes to a cataclysmic end, as a hero undertakes a desperate journey to Valinor, and the powers of Aman gather for a transoceanic assault on the forces and strongholds of Morgoth!
Silm Guide Link: https://www.tolkienroad.com/silmguide/sg27/
To support our work here, please visit Patreon.com/TolkienRoad.
Also, I've just launched a new Substack here: https://tolkienroad.substack.com/
Enjoy!
OTHER LINKS:
Video of this episode: https://youtu.be/lgI8ldBpAYQ
Watch AD-FREE: https://www.patreon.com/posts/135024534
Listen AD-FREE: https://www.patreon.com/posts/73639924
Buy Tolkien Road merch @ True Myths Press
Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/the-tolkien-road--5222755/support.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hey there, fellow travelers. Our twenty twenty five Silmrillion journey
continues with chapter twenty four of Quintis Silmarillion, of the
Voyage of Erendil and the War of Wrath. In chapter
twenty four, the First Age comes to a cataclysmic end
as a hero undertakes a desperate journey to Vallenor and
the powers of Aman gather for a transoceanic assault on
the forces and strongholds of Morgoth. While you're listening, check
(00:23):
out Silmguide dot com. That's Silmguide dot com for guides
to individual chapters. You can find that link in the
show notes. To support our work here, please visit patreon
dot com slash Tolkien Road Enjoy. Hey there, fellow travelers.
Welcome to The Tolkien Road, Episode three twelve. Greta, we've
reached the end of the First Age.
Speaker 2 (00:44):
Oh, yes, we have. Yes, I can't believe it.
Speaker 1 (00:48):
Yeah. Well, I mean this was your reading assignment, so
I know.
Speaker 3 (00:53):
But it's been so long since we've like done, you know,
read the Silmarillion or talked about it on there. I
guess I just had forgotten that this was the last
chapter of the silmarillim proper.
Speaker 2 (01:08):
Yes, we like to say.
Speaker 1 (01:10):
Yes, yes, indeed it is. In this episode, we'll be
discussing chapter twenty four of The Selmrilliant, of the Voyage
of Erindale and the War of Wrath. Before we get started,
we'd like to give a double up aar five to
our patrons. Hands up, stick them up, three two one
opst boom.
Speaker 2 (01:30):
That was a good one.
Speaker 1 (01:32):
Yeah, it just gets better and better every time, no doubt.
Special thanks to this episode's executive producers, John R. Caitlin
of t with Tolkien, Jacob Lockham, John H and Scotchy Bobo.
And you can become a patron by visiting patreon dot
com slash Tolkien Road. Your financial support helps the Tolkien
Road to keep on everring on and land you some
(01:52):
cool perks along the way. Learn more at patreon dot
com slash Tolkien Road. Hey YouTube, hit that light button,
don't forget to subscribe, and let us know what's on
your mind in the comments below. All right, let's kick
this recap discussion of chapter twenty four of The Silm
Million off with a quote from the film Million Great
(02:15):
was the sorrow of Eerindil and Elwing for the ruin
of the havens of Syrian and the captivity of their sons,
and they feared that they would be slain. But it
was not so, for Maglore took pity upon Elros and
el Rond, and he cherished them, and love grew after
between them, as little might be thought. But Maglore's heart
was sick and weary with the burden of the dreadful oath.
(02:39):
All right, I just thought that was a good quote.
Speaker 2 (02:42):
That's a great yeah.
Speaker 1 (02:44):
So, with Morgoth having crushed the great kingdoms of belleriond,
the remnant and hope of Middle Earth stands upon the
edge of oblivion. It is the hour for the fulfillment
of prophecy, and out of this peril heroic deeds shine forth.
Disclaim you should read this story before you listen to
this episode, And as with each episode, we won't be
covering every detail of this chapter, but instead doing our
(03:06):
best to hit the high points and unpack interesting and
important details. If we miss something, you guys want to
discuss more, let us know, all right. So, from the
Tale of Years and the War of Jewels, this the
time period for this is roughly it's actually almost one
hundred year time period from the year of the sun
five oh eight to the year of the Sun six hundred.
(03:27):
So all right, well, let's uh, let's dive into the
details here. So we learn that that Airindil and el
Wing are going upon embark upon, uh this sea voyage.
And at first it's simply Airindil. Right, he has two purposes,
(03:49):
find too war in Nidral his parents, and deliver a
message to Vallin or that's his. Those are his his
twin purposes for this voyage into the west. And he
does so upon this ship called Vingolot. So let's read
a little bit about Vingolot, So, Greta, can you read
(04:10):
this quote right here?
Speaker 3 (04:12):
In the yellow yep with the aid of Kerdan, Erundill
built of Inglot, the foam flower fairest to the ships
of Song. Golden were its oars and white. It's timbers
hewn in the birch woods of Nimbrethel, and its sails
were as the argent moon. In the lay of Erundel
is many a thing sung of his adventures in the
(04:34):
deep and in the lands and trodden, and in many
seas and in many isles.
Speaker 2 (04:38):
But Elwing was not with.
Speaker 3 (04:39):
Him, as and she sat in sorrow by the mouths
of Syrian.
Speaker 1 (04:45):
Yeah, so so Vingolotte, that's this ship. It's the Foam Flower,
and it has sails as the argent Moon, which argent
for those of you who aren't familiar with that word,
that means silvery right of silver, right, so very very
beautiful image of this ship being lat Yeah, and.
Speaker 2 (05:08):
The oars are golden.
Speaker 3 (05:09):
So you have kind of the maybe some symbols of
the two trees going on here.
Speaker 1 (05:15):
Yeah, well and a great point. And so you know
you think of the propulsion, right, you got sails and
you got oars, right, those are the two things that
move the ship. And so yeah, you have the silver
and you have the gold, right, and those are you know,
kind of the colors of the two you know, just
generally speaking, the symbolic colors of the two trees. And
(05:35):
you also have the sun and the moon, and which
you know, golden being the sun, the silver being the moon.
And you also the two trees. And I talk about
this some in Baron and Luthian. The different colors they
kind of represent the first born and the second born
people's right, because the people the old are right, are
(05:58):
the people you can kind of think of them of
the people of the stars, right, like kind of the
silvery stars. And and then you have men Tani right,
second born, and they are the people of the sun. Right. So,
lots of lots of that overlapping imagery here himself being
uh part elf part man right, having one parent who
(06:20):
is a man, one parent who is the daughter a
daughter of an old or right. So and actually Indale
having a little bit a little bit in there of
uh uh Mayar right, being a descendant of Melion, and
I believe the same set of el Wing as well. Yeah,
(06:42):
because she's the daughter of Dior, who is the son
of Baron and Luthian, and Luthian is the daughter of
Luthian is the daughter of Meleion. Thank you. Yes, all
these names. Got to remember all these names starts tripping
us up.
Speaker 2 (06:59):
I was willing you to think of it because I
was like.
Speaker 1 (07:01):
I don't remember, yes, ye, So yeah, lots of that overlapping,
lots lots of that uh that imagery overlapping there, good stuff. Okay.
So yeah, so sets out on this voyage. He's unable
to find uh tour in and I'll read a little
(07:23):
bit about that here. Erndil found not tour nor editl
nor came. He ever, on that journey to the shores
of valen Or, defeated by shadows and enchantment, driven by
repelling winds, until in longing for el wing, he turned
homeward towards the coast of belleriand and his heart bade
him haste, for a sudden fear had fallen on him
out of dreams and the winds that before he had
(07:43):
driven with might not uh had driven with might not
now bear him back as swift as his desire. So yeah,
he's not able to find tour in Dril And eventually
he turns around back towards a coast of Baleriond and
he starts to have this fear that something bad is happening, right,
(08:04):
Just something comes upon him that something bad is happening,
And it turns out that something in fact is bad.
Bad is happening, right, and it has to do with
Dun Dun Dunn, a se merle. So yeah, the silm Merle.
Remember this some merll that Baron and Luthian obtained from
the Crown of Morgoth. Well, that some merl has been
passed down. It's still been causing some problems, right it
(08:25):
was It was of course placed within the Naglimir, right,
the necklace of the dwarfs that was given to Thingle,
and Thingle wore proudly and uh. And then he's killed
because of this thing. And it kind of changes hands
a few times, and the Sumrle eventually winds up in
the hands of Dior. Dior passes it on to el
(08:49):
Wing and and it's held by el Wing there at
the mouths of Cyrion. So and word of this some
Merl the possession this silmrel gets back to my Thros
and the remaining sons of fan Or. Now at this
point there are four sons of fan Or that are
still alive. Four of the seven are still alive. Of course, Kelligorm, Kaunthr,
(09:12):
and Kurufen have all died previously, so remaining are only Mythros, Maglore, Amrod,
and Amras. So they decide that they got to fulfill
their oath, right, so they're gonna go after this. So Marl,
they asked nicely at first, or they think they asked nicely.
You know, it's like, hey, buddy, how's it going. Uh,
(09:33):
you know, hope you guys are doing well. Let us
know if there's anything we can do to help out.
Also give us back to the Silmrel, We'll probably kill you, right.
Kind of interesting little dynamic there. So the sons of
fan Or, and of course you know el Wing and
the people of the mouths of Syrian won't yield the
jewel to Mythros and his brothers, his remaining brothers. So
(09:56):
the sons of fan Or attack the exiles of Syrian
for the Selmrell of Aaron and Luthian Greta. Do you
want to read this passage?
Speaker 3 (10:02):
Sure? For the sons of Feynor that yet lived, came
down suddenly upon the exiles of Gondolin and the remnant
of Doriath and destroyed them. In that battle, some of
their people stood aside, and some few rebelled and were
slain upon the other part, aiding Elwing against their own lords.
For such was the sorrow and confusion in the hearts
of the Eldar in those days. But Maethros and Magalore
(10:25):
won the day, though they alone remained thereafter of the
sons of Feyenor, for both Amrad and Amros were slain
too late, the ships of Kyirdon and Gilglad. The High
King came hastening to the aid of the elves of Syrion,
and Elwing was gone, and her sons then such few
of that people as did not perish, and the assault
joined themselves to Gilgalad and went with him to Balar,
(10:48):
And they told that Elros and Elrond were taken captive,
but Elwing, with the silmarle upon her breast, had cast
herself into the sea. Thus Maethros and Magalore gained not
the jewel, but it was not lost, for Alma bore up,
eling out of the waves, and he gave her the
likeness of a great white bird, and upon her breast
there shone as a star of the silmarill as she
(11:09):
flew over the water to seek Eruindil, her beloved. On
a time of night, Erundel, at the helm of his ship,
saw her come towards him as a white cloud, exceeding
swift beneath the moon, as a star over the sea,
moving in the moving in strange course, a pale flame
on wings of storm. And it is sung that she
fell from the air upon the timbers of Vingelot in
(11:31):
a swoon, nigh unto death, for the urgency of her speed,
and Erundil took her to his bosom. But in the morning,
with marveling eyes, he beheld his wife in her own
form beside him, with her hair upon his face, and
she slept.
Speaker 1 (11:45):
Yeah. Yeah, so, so some interesting stuff going on here.
First of all, you know, will note that el Ros
and Elrond, the sons of Erindil and el Wing, are
taken captive by the sons of fan Or. We do
find out later that they are okay. They fall into
(12:08):
the hands of Maglore, and Maglore, of all the sons
of fan Or, turns out to maybe be the kindest
of all of them, if any one of them can
said to be particularly kind. He actually seems to have
something of a conscience and is the one that, you know,
unfortunately maybe the weakest wild of them all, but is
the one that's always kind of being like, maybe there's
(12:29):
a better way to do this. It doesn't evolve so
much killing and violence. So and we'll come back to
that a little later in this chapter. But we have
this image of el Wing throwing herself into the sea
with the silmurle upon her breast, and and then Olmo,
good old Olmo, always always there to help, always there
(12:49):
to help in whatever way they will allow him. To
write meaning meaning like the other the other valor. Right,
it's like almost just funny to me. It seems like
he's he's this guy who just wants to like wants
to help like all the time. And the rest of
the valor are like, they're like, you know, almost stop
helping them, right, and almost like like, look, what's happening
(13:10):
to them? Come on, why can't I help them? Like
he's just and he's he's like looking to see if
they're watching. And then he's like, all right, here you go,
here's some help, right, you know, here's twenty here's twenty
bucks here. Don't don't don't tell the rest of the valor.
I gave you this, right. Actually, I don't think he cares.
I think he's just gonna do his own thing. Because
he's Almo. He is one of the three most you know,
most powerful, I guess you could say. But and I
mean he's the you know, he's the lord of the
(13:33):
sea right, so of the oceans, so you know, kind
of kind of a awesome dude.
Speaker 2 (13:40):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (13:40):
Anyway, he lifts up l wing out of the sea
and basically turns her into a bird, right, and she
is able to go and as this in this bird
form greet Vingolot right to fly to Vingolot, which is
still out at sea, and uh and Dale of course
(14:05):
takes her, and uh he finds that this bird that
he that flew to him is in fact his wife.
Speaker 2 (14:13):
So it's really beautiful imagery.
Speaker 3 (14:15):
I feel like this is just like so token right
here the way he describes Oweing where he says, on
a time of night, Arundale at the helm of his ship,
saw her come towards him as a white cloud, exceeding
swift beneath the moon, as a star over the sea,
moving in strange course, a pale flame on wings of storm.
Speaker 2 (14:38):
This is beauty. It's just beautiful.
Speaker 1 (14:40):
Yeah, yeah, it is very beautiful, beautiful imagery. You can
you can kind of picture that in your own mind's eye.
He totally describes it. Yeah, good stuff.
Speaker 2 (14:50):
Absolutely.
Speaker 1 (14:52):
Sod sets out once again for the West, this time
with the soumrile. Right, so bef for he did not
have the silm role. Now he has the film role.
Speaker 2 (15:02):
So he had turned back around m hm.
Speaker 3 (15:05):
And now he's turning back back around now knowing the
way he was originally, you.
Speaker 1 (15:09):
Know, because he finds out from l Wing that it's
kind of like all hopes lost right back in back
in Middle Earth, right back in Valerion at this point, right,
the sons of fan Or have done their thing, and
I mean they've they've attacked these people who are already
like on like just trying to survive at this point,
right against all hope, and you know, fellow elves have
(15:29):
come and attacked them, and so, uh, I can't reader
we bring I can't remember if we brought this up
in that passage that we just read, but yeah, Amrod, Yeah,
so you read that Amrod and Amras are both slain.
So there's only two surviving sons of fan Or now, right,
may the rose mather Ros and Maglore. Right, So but
(15:55):
you know they've nevertheless this, the sons of fan Or
and whatever there armies consist of, right have have done this,
and you know, I mean they basically attacked like it's
almost like attacking a refugee camp or something like that.
You know, it's pretty low, pretty low, and it's you know,
it's the third kin slaying is really what it is, right,
because because you know they've these are ken right, They're
(16:19):
they're all they're they're an old or or if they're
not an old or they're closely related Elves right, so.
Speaker 2 (16:26):
Tooks right.
Speaker 1 (16:28):
Yes, they took l Rondon el Ros, but like I
said before, h fortunately l Rond and el Ros are safe,
relatively safe in the hands of Mogula, right, so that's good.
Speaker 3 (16:40):
It's only the least sketch of all the son maybe.
Speaker 1 (16:45):
Right, Yeah, yeah, he's the he's the nice son of
fan or yeah right, which isn't saying which isn't saying much,
but he is nevertheless the If you're going to fall
into the hands of any one of them, you probably
want to fall into the hands of Maga. So yes,
we got Aarendel setting out once more for the west,
this time with the summer ell. He makes it to
the Immortal Shores first of mortal men, it's pretty quiet,
(17:08):
and the Blessed Realm.
Speaker 2 (17:08):
When he arrives, I think they're partying.
Speaker 1 (17:11):
Well it's one of these Yeah, It's like it's like
I feel like all whenever big stuff happens in the
Blessed Realm, it's because they're like having a festival, a feast. Yeah, yep,
the Valar. You know, you think at some point they
learned a lesson, like about you know, maybe we need
to keep more people on guard when we're having a feast,
right than just kind of like the bare minimum. But
nevertheless they're it's just you know, this is this is
(17:34):
at least not more Goth or something like that coming
to attack them, right. This is just a mere mortal
who's looking for help, right, or mere half Alvin who's
looking for help. So this is what we read about Aarundel.
When he arrives. Then Airandel said to el Wing, await
me here, for one only may bring the message that
it is my fate to bear. And he went up
(17:55):
alone into the land and came into the Calakyria, and
it seemed to him empty and silent, for even as
mor Goth and Ungolian came in ages past. So now
Erindal had come at a time of festival, and well
nigh all the Elvin folk were gone to Valemar, or
were gathered in the halls of Manwey upon Tnequetel, and
few were left to keep watch upon the walls of Tyrion.
(18:16):
But some there were who saw him from Afar and
the great light that he bore, and they went in
haste to Valemar. But Erindil climbed the green hill of Tuna,
and found it bare. And he entered into the streets
of Tyrion, and they were empty, and his heart was heavy,
for he feared that some evil had come even to
the blessed Rome. He walked in the deserted ways of Tyrion,
(18:36):
and the dust upon his raiment and his shoes was
a dust of diamonds. And he shone and glistened as
he climbed the long white stairs. And he called aloud
in many tongues, both of elves and men, but there
were none to answer him. Therefore he turned back at
last towards the sea. But even as he took the
shoreward road, once stood upon the hill and called to
him in a great voice, crying, hail Erandil of Mariner's
(18:59):
most renowned that looketh he the looked for, that cometh
that unawares the longed forour that cometh beyond hope. Hail Aerendale,
bearer of light before the sun and moon, splendor of
the children of Earth, star in the darkness, jewel in
the sunset, radiant in the morning. That voice was the
voice of Aonwi Harald of Manwey, And he came from
(19:19):
Valemar and summoned Erindil to come before the powers of
Varda and Airindil went into Valinor, into the halls of Valomar,
and never again set foot upon the lands of men.
Then the Valar took counsel together, and they summoned Olmo
from the deeps of the sea, and Aarendil stood before
their faces and delivered the errand of the two kindreds. Pardon.
He asked for the noldor and pity for their great sorrows,
(19:42):
and mercy upon men and elves, and succor and their need.
And his prayer was granted. So and I'll have you
read Manway's judgment here Greta.
Speaker 2 (19:56):
Okay.
Speaker 3 (19:57):
But when all was spoken, Manway gave judgment, and he said,
in this matter, the power of doom is given to me.
The peril that he ventured for love of the two
kindreds shall not fall upon Eruindil, nor shall it fall
upon Elwing, his wife, who entered into peril for love
of him. But they shall not walk again ever among
elves or men in the outer lands. And this is
(20:17):
my decree concerning them, to Erindil and to Elwing, and
to their sons shall be given, shall be given leave
each to choose freely to which kindred their fate shall
be joined, and under which kindred they shall be judged.
Speaker 1 (20:30):
Yeah, so this is where we have the the you
know what comes later with Elrond and el Rose at
the beginning of the second Age. Right. So Elrond, even
though he's half Elvin, he chooses to have his fate
you know, aligned with the elves, right, so you know,
he can almost be considered you know fully elf in
that way, whereas his brother el Rose chooses to have
(20:51):
his fate aligned with with the fate of men, right. Yeah,
and uh, and Erundel and Elwing both choose the fate
of the elves. And uh and actually I'm kind of
jumping ahead of myself a little bit because I wanted
to read that quote, but they do.
Speaker 2 (21:12):
And can we ask something super quick?
Speaker 1 (21:15):
Well, let me make a one point and hold I thought,
hold that thought before I forget this thing. So I
find it interesting that we didn't read this part. But
Mondos he's kind of the one that pushes the issue,
Like he says, shehall mortal man step living upon the
undying lands and yet live. And of course it's Almo
who like kind of has the good things for these
this he was born into the world and saying to
(21:35):
me whether you know he's so Almo of course again
being our friend, right, almost our friend, almost our friend.
He likes it, he loves us, right, he's our friend.
But I think it's really interesting that Arendo is unable
to please Mondos or like kind of have Mondos think
kind of favorably of him, right, But Luthian and the
(22:00):
Baron Luthian chapter at the end, she's the one that's
able to plead on before the inexorable Mandos, right, Mondos
for the restoration of Baron's life. Right, So it's really
interesting to me that that kind of lifts up Luthian
even greater. Right, is to say, like not even Airendel
can like, you know, make Mondos Mondos being the master's
(22:22):
master of fates, right, master of doom. Right, he's kind
of like you know, what's do is do right, that's
kind of how he is. And it's only Luthian, I guess,
even even beyond Aarendel who's able to you know, I
guess obtain his.
Speaker 3 (22:38):
Pity way his judgment maybe a little bit well I mean,
I don't know for sure, but something tells me Luthian
was maybe just a tad more charming than Eruindil well
and maybe probably more beautiful.
Speaker 1 (22:53):
Well, you know, she's the most beautiful among the the
children of a Lubitar, right, So yeah, absolutely, I.
Speaker 3 (23:01):
Mean she Arondila was definitely a disadvantage in both of
those respects.
Speaker 1 (23:07):
Although he is uh he descended from I.
Speaker 3 (23:11):
Mean, I'm not saying he's bad looking, but he's not
the most beautiful and he's also not a charming lady.
Speaker 1 (23:16):
So yeah, no, it's it's true. I mean, you know
what uh you what you are alluding to is a
is a true is a true thing.
Speaker 2 (23:29):
Even among the Valor?
Speaker 1 (23:30):
Yes?
Speaker 3 (23:30):
Yes, So my question is, did Eron Dill when he
set off on this errand to valen Or, do you
think he expected like never to leave, Like, did he
realize that that would be part of part of the
sacrifice he was.
Speaker 1 (23:48):
Making, that he'd never be able to come back.
Speaker 2 (23:50):
Yeah, that he basically have to stay there, stay in
valen Or.
Speaker 1 (23:54):
I mean, I don't know if he I don't know
if he knew it for certain, he might have had
an idea, but at the same time, like I think
he was. I think it when he when they went
the second time, right, He's like, there's nothing left for.
Speaker 2 (24:06):
Me here, right, right.
Speaker 1 (24:08):
I Mean the only thing I can think is that,
you know, maybe he had some hope that he would
be able to go back and see his sons again,
right el Rondon el Rose, because that's really all I mean,
he has l Wing with him at this point, right, right,
And so the only thing that you know, I think
would be major enough for him to want to go
back would be El Rondon l Rose right, to see
(24:30):
his like to rescue his sons. So that may have
been that makes sense, you know, a sacrifice on his part.
Speaker 3 (24:37):
Yeah, it just seems it just seems like I remember
when I read it the first time, I remember thinking
that that's like it's it's like it seems appropriate, right,
I mean, like like Mondo says, like, shall mortal men
step living on upon the undying lands.
Speaker 2 (24:52):
And yet live?
Speaker 3 (24:53):
Like, yeah, of course, But at the same time, it
just seems like kind of extreme, Yeah, to be like,
I mean, he he's doing this, like he's not going
because oh I just want to go see the Valor
and check out Valinori, right, I mean he's going to,
you know, for the good of others, right, right, to
try to restore peace and friendship and reconciliation. So it
(25:18):
just it just seemed like a drastic measure, I guess.
Speaker 2 (25:23):
But you're right.
Speaker 3 (25:24):
I mean, given the turn of events, and he's with
his wife, so it's probably not all bad.
Speaker 1 (25:31):
Yeah, yeah, well, I mean it certainly could be worse.
As you were talking, I was thinking about the circumstances
of this. I was kind of thinking of Frodo's choice,
you know, And it's like, at some point, I think
people put into great situations of self sacrifice like that
realize like there's nothing like the other the choice not
(25:53):
to do this isn't really much of a choice, right
even even so right, like like I could choose that,
but like, you know, but there's really nothing for me
behind and somebody had, you know, somebody has to do this,
and it looks like it's fallen to me to do it, right,
So I don't know, it's almost kind of like the
the soldier's choice, if you will, all right, the soldier's fate, right,
(26:16):
Like yeah, you know, it's like, yes, I could choose
not to, but there's nothing there's nothing for me or
anybody else in that right, and somebody has to do this, right. Yeah,
so now of course he is going to the blessed realm.
But you know this, this, this like the wrath of
the Valor, seems to be something that they do. They
(26:36):
do fear, right, So you know, especially somebody like Arendel,
who would have never actually lived in Valenor before, nor
el Wing, right, they they both were born after the
the exile of the Noldor right. Yeah, yeah, so they've
never been to Vallenor before. It's only this thing that
they've heard of. And they know that when their people
(26:58):
left val Or, they really made the people who are
in charge of ellen Or really mad or they they
defied them, right, so they expect them to not be
happy with them. I guess you could.
Speaker 2 (27:10):
Say, yeah, that makes sense, Yeah, makes sense.
Speaker 3 (27:12):
So and it also appears at Paul Simon, maybe a
Tolkien fan, because I'm wondering if it's his shoes, and
his shoes was a dust of diamonds.
Speaker 1 (27:23):
You know, he's a rich man. Don't try to dimond
Yeah that diamonds soles of her shoes. Yeah, it's a
rich girl. She don't try to hide it. It's got
diamonds on the banana. So we're just gonna turn.
Speaker 3 (27:41):
This all right, Yes, I just I mean it was
I mean like it was just kind of a funny
like mental picture as you were reading, like they can
just put your air and no, like wandering around the
breast blessed around like hello, hello.
Speaker 2 (27:56):
Anybody here?
Speaker 1 (27:57):
There's anybody home in.
Speaker 3 (27:58):
The meantime, Like he's like covered in diamond dust and
it's just I don't know, I'm like, yeah, could be worse,
Like we said.
Speaker 1 (28:06):
Yeah, well, Froto was like you get to go to Mordor, right,
you know, yeah, oh boy, Yeah, it's like you get
to go to the blessed realm. Yeah, you might get
zapped by the valor because they're just not happy to
see you, but at least it'll be beautiful on the
way there, right, and they're probably even in taking out
their wrath on you, A're probably gonna be kind of
nice to you because they're good. Right.
Speaker 3 (28:25):
If they don't look well, they probably could look scary,
and so they don't look as scary.
Speaker 2 (28:28):
But there's only more be more light there.
Speaker 1 (28:30):
You know. I hope the first time I see like,
you know, a a godlike figure, you know, face to
face that it is kind of intimidating because it'll be
a little disappointing if it's not you know.
Speaker 2 (28:43):
Yeah, yeah, I fear that intimidating, but like maybe.
Speaker 1 (28:48):
Well hopefully it's hopefully it's a hopefully it's a benevolence,
you know, godlike figure. Yeah, yeah, so that you know,
it's like it's like, oh, be not afraid, right right, Yeah,
that would be nice instead of.
Speaker 2 (29:00):
Like aspiring but not scary.
Speaker 1 (29:04):
Yeah, exactly. Yes, all right. So, uh, as I previously mentioned, Adal,
el Wing and their offspring get to choose their fate.
So we know that Aerdal and el Wing choose choose
to side, you know, with the elves, right.
Speaker 2 (29:25):
So could they have chosen otherwise?
Speaker 1 (29:27):
I mean, there's let's read this passage. Let's read this passage, right,
I'll start, Yeah, I'll go and read this one. Then
Adal said to el Wing, choose thou for now, I
am weary of the world. And el Wing chose to
be judged among the firstborn children of a Lebatar because
of Luthian and for her sake. Erindale chose alike, though
his heart was rather with the kindred of men. The
(29:48):
people of his father. Then at the bidding of the
so Aarondil chooses. His heart was was with the people
of his father, Metuor, who was a man, but he
chose because of his love for Elwing. He chose to
side on the side that she chose. Then, at the
bidding of the Valar, aon Wi went to the shores
(30:09):
of Aman, where the companions of Erindil still remained awaiting tidings.
And he took a boat, and the three mariners were
set therein and the Valar drove them away into the
east with a great wind. But they took Vingelot and
hallowed it, and bore it away through Valinor to the
uttermost rim of the world. And there it passed through
the door of night and was lifted up even into
the oceans of heaven. Now fair and marvelous was that
(30:31):
vessel made, And it was filled with a wavering flame,
pure and bright. And there Indel the mariner sat at
the helm, glistening with dust of elven gems, and the
Silmarilla was bound upon his brow. Far he journeyed in
that ship even into the starless voids. But most often
was he seen at morning or at evening glimmering in
sunrise or sunset as he came back to Valinor from
(30:53):
voyages beyond the confines of the world. So again, awesome image.
There becomes the Star Sailor, right, and uh, he's you know,
he's lifted up into the heavens along with his ship Vingolot. Right,
it's hallowed, lifted up there along with the sel marillion,
(31:13):
the selm Marillion of Baron and Luthian, right, Which don't
you just love how all this stuff is weave together,
right like that they Baron and Luthian and that amazing
story they obtained this this somrle from the iron crown
of Morgoth. It's passed on and it becomes it becomes
the jewel that's upon this ship. This this ship that's
lifted into the heavens, hallowed, lifted into the heavens ving
(31:35):
a lot along with the Star Sailor. Right. So little
side note that just occurred to me. All right, So
I thought this was really interesting. So I'm reading currently
reading when I'm not reading Tolkien, which there's not a
lot of time I have to read when I'm not
reading Tolkien. But I'm currently reading Midnight in the Garden
of Good and Evil and which you've read, Gretta, and
(31:58):
some of you might have read as well well. But
there there's something really cool in there where he's talking
about this poet Conrad Aiken, who lived in who I
guess grew up and who was from Savannah, and and
he he talks about this thing where I think it
may have been like what Conrad Aiken put upon his
tombstone or something like that. And he basically he was
(32:21):
in the habit of like looking at the different ships
that were coming into Savannah, which is, you know, this
port on the southern coast on the on the coast
of Georgia, right in the United States, and he's like
looking at he finds these two names of ships, right
that are going to be in the port during that
period of time, and it's one of them is Cosmos
(32:43):
Mariner and the other one is Destination Unknown. And so
he put those two together and it became I think
he made it. I think he made it his the
epitaph on his tombstone. Right, So Cosmos Mariner Destination Unknown. Right,
But that made me think of Arundel, right, I mean,
you think of Airendel right there, right, Cosmos mariner, destination unknown.
(33:04):
And that's that's just that's about as cool of a
you know, of an epitaph as you can put on
a tombstone right there. So if it was in fact
his epitaph.
Speaker 2 (33:14):
Yeah, so.
Speaker 1 (33:17):
I also I didn't look this up, But there is
like this name Aarendil is a really it's not one
that Tolkien came up with himself, right, it's actually it
actually goes way back before Tolkien's own writing. And let
me see, maybe this has to maybe this has to
do with it. Tolkien used the original Old English name
(33:39):
Aarendel for all drafts previous to the Lord of the Rings,
and first he related it with the Elvish words ai
eagle and aarn i r. But the exact meaning of
the name remained unclear within the legendarium until he made
the name into Quenya to Airendil.
Speaker 2 (33:55):
But you're saying he didn't make up the name.
Speaker 1 (33:57):
The name Aarendel is goes back into Old English, right,
And it's actually there's really there's some kind of beautiful
old poetry that alludes to that that talks about Arendil.
And let's see here is this it? Okay, it's one
(34:20):
of his earliest it's one of Tolkien's earliest poems. But
then there's I believe there's like a poem that goes
way back in history, like well before Tolkien's life that
has to do with this. And it's as I remember
it again, I didn't look any of this up before.
I'm going searching back to my memory from several years
ago when I was teaching about this poem. But this
poem has to do with kind of this. It's almost
(34:43):
like an allusion to Christ right as the you know
as this star right, so this hoped for looked for
star right hopeful star kind of kind of deal. So anyway,
that was a very nebulous allusion to something that I'm
pretty sure or exists. But do without what you will. Okay,
(35:07):
back to the Silmarillion, the silm Marillion in the Sky.
Let's read a little bit about this and how when
it first when when Arundel and Binglota first raised up
into the sky, how it's seen in back in BALERIOND. So, Greta,
can you read this?
Speaker 2 (35:23):
Yes? Now? When first I'll start over.
Speaker 3 (35:28):
Now, when first Vingolott was set to sail in the
seas of heaven, it rose unlooked for, glittering and bright,
and the people of Middle Earth beheld it from afar
and wondered, and they took it for a sign and
called it gil Estel, the star of high Hope. And
when this new star was seen at evening, Methros spoke
to Magalore, his brother, and he said, surely that is
(35:49):
a silmurle that shines now in the west. And Magalore answered,
if it be truly the silm Morle which we saw
cast into the sea, that rises again by the power
of the Valar, then let us be glad, for its
glory is seen now by many, and is yet secure
from all evil. Then the elves looked up and despaired
no longer, but more Goth was filled with doubt.
Speaker 1 (36:11):
Yeah, so again, you know Maglore, like, you know, you
can't help, but just like like Maglore a little bit
and feel kind of bad for him, right, like, because
he truly seems like he's a good soul and he's
just been you know, by birth, he's been loupten with
all these guys that are that are just kind of jerks,
right and I mean he's like he's basically like, isn't
it wonderful? Then? Now everybody gets to see this film.
Speaker 2 (36:32):
Rule and it's protected from evil.
Speaker 1 (36:35):
And all of his other brothers would have been like, no,
it's ours, right, you know, you know, nobody else has
a right to see. Yeah.
Speaker 3 (36:43):
Anyway, I wonder what it was about it that made
that made may Throws like recognize it.
Speaker 2 (36:50):
I think just it's brilliant, or.
Speaker 1 (36:52):
I think they would have just known, right, like like
probably the light of it was was unlike any other light,
you know, Yeah, that makes sense. Yeah, so if it
be truly the summer el Yeah. So and then it
says more Goth sees it and is filled with doubt. Right,
so he's like, uh, this doesn't look good. Why is
(37:14):
that up there?
Speaker 3 (37:15):
Yeap?
Speaker 1 (37:16):
And it is the I guess star rising that portends
the War of Wrath. Right, so we finally arrived at
this climactic battle of the First Age, right, the ultimate
final battle of the First Age, where all the North
is a flame with war. So, yeah, a couple of
(37:39):
paragraphs here. The meeting of the hosts of the West
and of the North is named the Great Battle and
the War of Wrath. There was marshaled the whole power
of the Throne of more Goth and it had become
great beyond count so that anfaluglyth could not contain it,
and all the north was a flame with war, but
it availed him not. The ball Rogs were destroyed, save
(37:59):
some few that fled and hid themselves, and caverns inaccessible
at the roots of the earth. And the uncounted legions
of the Orcs perished like straw and a great fire,
or were swept like shriveled leaves before a burning wind.
Few remained to trouble the world for long years after,
and such few as were left of the three houses
of the alf friends fathers of men fought upon the
(38:20):
part of the Valar, and they were avenged in those days,
for Baragund and Barrahir, Galdoor and Gundor, Huor and Hurun,
and many other of their lords. But a great part
of the sons of men, whether of the people of
oldor or others new, come out of the east marched
with the enemy. And the elves do not forget it. Then,
seeing that his hosts were overthrown and his power dispersed, more,
(38:43):
Goth quailed, and he dared not to come forth himself,
But he loosed upon his foes the last desperate assault
that he had prepared, and out of the pits of
Agband there issued the winged dragons that had not been seen,
not before been seen. And so sudden in ruinous was
the onset of that dreadful fleet that the host of
the Valar was driven back, for the coming of the
dragons was with great thunder and lightning and a tempest
(39:06):
of fire. So massive, massive battle. You know, it's so
large that not even that battle plane that on fog Lith,
the gasping dust right outside of Angban, it's I mean,
it's it's larger than even that huge battlefield, right for
all the forces that are allied here. I didn't read
this passage, but you know you can read about the
forces that are coming from Valanar for this voyage. It's
(39:28):
interesting that Tallarry don't don't themselves participate in the battle,
but they they basically agree to give transport and they don't.
They don't participate in the battle because they're still upset
about the kin sling, right, But they do give transport
on their ships uh to the van Yard and to
the Noldor who remained behind led by Phenarfin and and
(39:50):
then a host of you know, what I assume are
kind of mayar sorts of force, you know forces. So
we know at least a comes and uh, and you
know there's this massive host, right, kind of a d
day sort of force here going on. Right, So the
(40:12):
what we you know, what we learned through all of this.
There's a destruction of many ball rocks, though some fled
to the roots of the earth. The old friends, fathers
of men made the hosts of Valar, but not all
men do. Winged dragons are unleashed and the host of
the Valor are driven back. Aarendil and eagles take on
the dragons, and on Kalagon the Black is slain by Erendil. Right,
(40:34):
so we have this battle between Aarendel and his and
his envingelot there in the heavens, and Airindil slays this
on Kalagon the Black and then angband is raided and
Morgoth taken captive, and the last two sommarles recovered. So, Greta,
do you want to read this, Blue Passenger?
Speaker 3 (40:54):
Then the sun rose and the hosts of the Valar prevailed,
and well nigh all the dragons were destroyed and all
the pits of Morgoth were broken and unroofed, and the
might of the valor descended into the deeps of the earth.
There more Goths stood at last at bay, And yet unvaliant,
he fled into the deepest of his minds and sued
for peace and pardon. But his feet were hewn from
(41:14):
under him, and he was hurled upon his face. Then
he was bound with the chain of guy Noor, which
he had worn for time, and his crown, and his
iron crown. They beat into a collar for his neck,
and his head was bowed upon his knees. And the
two silmurils which remained to Morgoth were taken from his crown,
and they shone, unsullied, beneath the sky, and aon Way
(41:38):
took them and guarded them.
Speaker 1 (41:40):
Yeah, so more Gooth is defeated. More Goth is defeated,
and uh they really you know, it's the first time
he was defeated. You know, wash was bad enough for him.
This time it's going to be even worse, right, because
he fooled them, right, it's full fooled me once. Shame
(42:00):
on you, fool me twice, Shame on me. Right, They're
they're not going to be fooled again by more goth yep,
I mean they hew his feet out from under him.
That's got to be pretty awful even for a even
for a god.
Speaker 3 (42:12):
Right, yeah, and just having a collar put on you,
I mean so like degrading.
Speaker 1 (42:18):
Well, and it's and the symbolism of being his iron crown,
yeah right, that was what was his iron crown, right
with the swere else like kind of the you know,
the image the symbol of his glory, right and of
his evil glory, I guess you could say. And he's
had this collar, you know, it's beaten to a collar
and put around his neck, right, just a little adding
(42:40):
some insult to injury there for sure.
Speaker 3 (42:42):
Yeah, yeah, definitely showing that I think that, you know
what he thought that crown being his his uh crowning glory, right,
the source of his power, a symbol of his power,
was truly what was you know, is now a symbol
of his captivity.
Speaker 1 (43:01):
Yeah. Yeah. It should also be mentioned that we learn
here why you know, for those of you who pick
up the Silmarillion for the first time and our second
or third time and you're looking at that map in
there and you're like, this doesn't look like Middle Earth,
you know it? I guess it kind of looks like
Middle Earth, but it doesn't really look like the Middle Earth.
(43:21):
It's in Lord of the Rings. Well, now you learn why,
right now you learn exactly why. So through all of
this great cataclysmic battle, it says, for so great was
the fury of those adversaries, that the northern regions of
the western world were rent asunder, and the sea roared
in through many chasms, and there was confusion and great noise,
and rivers perished or found new paths, and the valleys
(43:43):
were upheaved, and the hills trod down, and Syrion was
no more. So this whole region of Bellerion is basically
thrust under the waves, right thrust under the sea in
the cataclysm of this battle. So that's why when you
look at the map of the Third Age, all of
that area to the west right, very little of that
(44:05):
still remains in the Third very little of what you
see kind of to the west of that area. I
should say right there that that's where Bellerian would be,
But it's beneath the sea and the Third Age, right,
this kind of area right here, all right, So that's
why there's no more Belarion. And a way say summons
(44:29):
the elves of Bellerion to return to Valenor, and Mythros
and Magloa refuse and have this conversation about whether the
oath is still valid. Excuse me all right, then, aon
Way is herald of the elder king. Some in the
elves of Blarion to depart from Middle Earth. But Mythros
and Magloa would not hearken, and they prepared, though now
(44:51):
with weariness and loathing, to attempt and despair the fulfillment
of their oath, for they would have given battle for
the Silmariles were they withheld even against the victorious to Valenor,
even though they stood alone against all the world. And
they send a message therefore to Aonway, bidding him yield
up now those jewels which of old fan Or their
father made, and more Goth stole from him. But aon
(45:13):
Wi answer that the right to the work of their father,
which the sons of fan Or formally possessed, had now
perished because of their many and merciless deeds, being blinded
by their oath, and most of all because of their
slaying of Dior and the assault upon the havens. The
light of the simm rules should go now into the west,
whence it came in the beginning, And to Valanars, must
(45:34):
Mithros and Maglor return and there abide the judgment of
the Valar, by whose decree alone would away yield the jewel,
yield the jewels from his charge. Then Maglor desired, indeed
to submit, for his heart was sorrowful, and he said,
the oath says not that we may not bide our time,
And it may be that in Valenor all shall be
forgiven and forgot, and we shall come into our own
in peace. But Mythros answered that if they returned to Aman,
(45:58):
but the favor of the Valar were worth held from them,
then their oath would still remain, But its fulfillment be
beyond all hope. And he said, who can tell to
what dreadful doom we shall come if we disobey the
powers in their own land, or purpose ever to bring
war again into their holy realm. Yet Maglar still held back, saying,
if Manuey and Varda themselves deny the fulfillment of an
(46:18):
oath to which we named them in witness, is it
not made void? And Mythros answered, but how shall our
voices reach to a Lubatar beyond the circles of the world,
And by a Lubatar we swore in our badness and
called the everlasting darkness upon us if we swept, if
we kept not our word, who shall release us? If
none can release us, said Maglore. Then indeed the everlasting
(46:40):
darkness shall be our lot, whether we keep our oath
or break it. But less evil shall we do in
the breaking. So you know, again we have this image.
I mean, it's a great dialogue right here, it really is.
It's just great. But you know, again, Maglore, you're just
like like, oh, Magalore, I feel for you man, and
(47:03):
you know you got to deal with He's like really
stubborn Kensman, right, and he's basically just looking for any
way out, right. He wants any way out. He's like, look,
we you know, maybe we'll go back and they'll give us,
you know, they'll give us the jewels, right, And Mythros
is like, yes, but if we go back and we
don't and they don't, then you know we're in a
(47:25):
bad spot because we can no longer we no longer
have any way to obtain the jewels for ourselves. And
and he says like, well, we named man Way and
vardas witness right of our oath. So if they if
they deny the fulfillment of the oath, then like, what
you know, isn't that releasing us from the oath? And
(47:45):
then Mythros is like, but what about Alubatar?
Speaker 3 (47:48):
Right?
Speaker 1 (47:49):
We know, how how will we obtain the forgiveness of
a Lubatar for all this? Right? And It's like, well, mon,
you know you wouldn't be like, well, Manway like he's
the one that talks to Alubatar, so if you're nice
enough to him, maybe he can help you out right,
And Moglar is like, well, at least even if we
don't fulfill the oath, at least we don't have to
(48:10):
do more evil right in the process. And it's ultimately
my throws wins out. You know, poor Maglore, he just
can't like, oh, you just want to give him a hug.
You're like, oh, man, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, you got
loop you got looped in with this lot that really
stinks for you. He he, he wants so badly to
just be done with this oath right and to find
some way out of it, and he's unable, you know,
(48:33):
he's well, see, I think any one of those ways
might have worked, right, but my throws just the stubbornness
ingrained in these various figures my Throws and uh, and
then the other sons of fan Or who are gone
Fan or himself, it just won't give It won't give way.
(48:53):
So I don't know any thoughts on all that, Greta, No.
Speaker 3 (48:59):
I mean, it's uh, it's a tough spot, you know,
I mean it's really I mean, you kind of understand
this was an oath they made with their dad, right,
and it was obviously like, you know, they've done so
much in the name of it, already, so much evil.
Speaker 2 (49:18):
Yeah, at one.
Speaker 3 (49:20):
Point you're kinda like, you know, the one side, I
guess I can see both sides. Right On one side,
it's like, well, we've already like countless lives have been sacrificed,
and you know, we've done.
Speaker 1 (49:34):
All these things, we've gone this far, we've.
Speaker 3 (49:36):
Gone this far exactly, what's just one more? You know,
like honor our father? Right, I mean that's kind of
the argument.
Speaker 1 (49:44):
Well, you know that in the doing of great evil,
like at some point, that's the calculus, right, That's that's
the calculus that feels like it remains to you, right,
Like it's like, well, I've already done this. There's really
really no going back at this point. Right. But that's
the thing I can't help it. Rereminded in this in
this dialogue of what I think of is like the
(50:06):
the archetypes of of forgiveness in the Gospels, right, And
it's you got Peter and you got Judas, right and
maglre uh And I've always thought of them like they
both commit these horrible sins associated with the crucifixion of Christ, right,
the crucifixion of their of their master right. And ultimately
(50:28):
the difference between the two of them is that because
I don't believe for a second the Judas the forgiveness
wasn't available to Judas, right, But Judas chooses this path
of despair, right, which ultimately my Throst is advocating for
right here, right. And because in the end, even if
they get the somewhere else, they're still like they've done evil,
Like they've just done more evil.
Speaker 2 (50:49):
Right, and you know, no good it's gonna come up in.
Speaker 1 (50:52):
No good, Yeah, you know, no good's gonna come of it. It's
like when do you stop choosing that path?
Speaker 2 (50:55):
Right?
Speaker 1 (50:56):
But and then Maglare is like, you know, the Peter path, right,
he chooses even though he's you know, Peter denied Christ
three times in his in his most dire situation. But
Christ offers forgiveness to him and he receives the forgiveness, right,
And maglor is like kind of advocating for that path,
but unfortunately that path doesn't went out here, right you know,
(51:20):
so you know you have you just have this image
of like, we we've gone down this road already so far,
what really could be available to us anymore? And it's
like extreme forgiveness, right, maybe it does actually, maybe it
is actually a thing. Maybe you should explore that option
instead of continuing to do more evil, right, because it's
the evil that you do. You do it to others,
(51:41):
but and ultimately you do it to yourself. Right.
Speaker 3 (51:44):
And you know, Erindel is like proof himself that these
soil morels could be used for good, right, I mean
he's he comes to be known as the star of
high hope, right, that soil morale that's in the sky.
So it's like they don't you know, they don't have
to be associated with the evil.
Speaker 1 (52:02):
You know that that made me think of something that's really,
that's really good. And they might have known that the Valor, right, Like,
what did they do? They put the they put the
silmarill that they had that they obtained from Airendil. They
didn't keep it for themselves, right, they used it unselfishly.
They put it in the sky. Is this is this
(52:23):
sign of hope? Right? And the people of Middle Earth? Right,
they gave it back to all the people of Middle Earth. Right. Yeah.
So if they had just kind of thought about that
for a minute and said in themselves, right that maybe
you know, maybe these Valor are actually more benevolent than
we realize.
Speaker 3 (52:40):
Right, Yeah, that's a great point, you know. I mean
what they did was the opposite, you know, the opposite
of selfish, right, yeah, I mean yeah, yeah, I mean
that it would have been nice if they realized that,
oh okay, maybe you could share this and everybody wins,
right yeah.
Speaker 1 (52:59):
Yeah. Well, and and ultimately at this point, like myglore
just sounds spent. He's like he sounds like he doesn't
even want the silm rules anymore, really, right, And but
my throat maybe still has some of that some of
that hunger within him. Right for them? Well, again, like
that's that to me, it was a really great passage
(53:20):
and there's a lot. There's a lot going on there,
I feel like, mm hmm for sure. So what we
do learn is that they go, they go down the
path that my Throat is kind of mapping out for them,
and they do manage to obtain the silm rules. My
throws is agonized by his and cast himself into a
pit of fire right and kind of into the heart
of the earth. And uh so that's the end of
(53:42):
my Throats. And then Maglore casts his into the sea, right,
he's just done with it, and he casts it into
the sea, and and then he just wanders upon the shores.
So my Throas we know his fate. He dies here
at the end of the first Age, and Maglore we
don't know his fate. All we know is these this
one ring man of you Elf of song right, So
(54:04):
kind of a kind of an interesting image fate, unknown
fate for Maglore.
Speaker 2 (54:09):
There so not a happy one though, it sounds.
Speaker 1 (54:12):
I don't think so. He sounds like he's the sad
elf wondering the shores, right, the sad song singing the
sad song of the sea, right for for all of
history seem and that's.
Speaker 3 (54:25):
How it came that one simhearls in the heavens one
and the fires the heart. And we talked about this
a little bit too, didn't we when we were talking
about the show.
Speaker 1 (54:36):
Yeah, yeah, we do know one resides in the heart
of the earth. And there was some illusion on the
show that maybe, you know, with the when they kind
of talk about how n Thrill came about that that
maybe that had something to do Silmarle somehow brought you know,
had something to do with that that's in the heart
of the earth, but that wasn't specified.
Speaker 2 (54:55):
So and there's one obviously in the deep waters.
Speaker 1 (54:58):
That's right, yep, that's right. The elves, the remaining elves
are bidden to return to Valenor, and many of them do,
but cured on Caliborne, Galadriel, Gilgalad and Elrond, don't It
says when they came into the west, the elves of
Bellerion dwelt upon tol Ercea, the lonely isle that looks
(55:18):
both west and east, whence they might come even to Valenor.
They were admitted again to the love of Manwey and
the pardon of the Valar, and the Tilari forgave their
ancient grief, and the curse was laid to rest. Yet
not all the Adalier were willing to forsake the hitherlands,
where they had long suffered and long dwelt, and some
lingered many an age in Middle Earth. Among those were
(55:38):
cured on the Shipwright Caliborne of Doriath, with Galadriel his wife,
who alone remained in those of those who led then
Oldor to exile in belleriond and Middle Earth dwelt. Also Gilgalad,
the High King, and with him was Helrond half Elvin,
who chose, as was granted to him, to be numbered
among the Eldar. But Elros's brother chose to abide with men.
And from these brethren alone has come among men the
(55:59):
blood of the first born in a strain of the
spirits divine that were before Arda. For they were the
sons of Elwing Dior's daughter, Luthian's son child of Thingle
and Melion and Arendel. Their father was the son of
Idriel calibrindl Torgon's daughter of Gondolin. But Morgoth himself the
Valar thrust through the door of night beyond the walls
(56:19):
of the world into the timeless void, and a guard
is set forever on those walls, and Arndil keeps watch
upon the ramparts of the sky. Yet the lies that Melchor,
the mighty and accursed mor Goth Boghlier, the power of
terror and of hate sowed in the hearts of elves
and men, or a sea that does not die and
cannot be destroyed, and ever and and on it sprouts
anew and will bear dark fruit even unto the latest days.
(56:41):
So mor Goth is thrust beyond the walls of the world.
Arundel Kin keeps him out out there. But we have
this note that the seeds he sowed, right, the seeds
he sowed in the hearts of elves and men, they
persist right, They are still with us even to this day.
(57:05):
So it's the final note. Here Here ends the silm million.
If it has passed from the end, from the high
and the beautiful, to darkness and ruin that was of old,
the fate of Ardemard. And if any change shall come
and the marring be amended, Manway and Varda may know,
but they have not revealed it, and it is not
declared in the dooms of Mandos. So that ends the
film million proper, the end of the film million. Yeah,
(57:27):
any final thoughts there, Greta on those. I know, this
chapter is really good. It's really so much happens in it,
and I feel like this alone could be like a
three volume book, you know, like yeah, you know, if
you you know, just flesh flesh, the whole thing out.
And I believe it was of the Three Great Tales.
(57:47):
This was actually kind of the fourth grade tale that
was in you know, Tolkien intended to be a longer,
longer poem, longer poetic work, kind of epic poem, and
as we there are there are parts of that in
various parts of the history of Middle Earth. But yeah,
and it wraps everything up really well, but at the
same time leaves the future open for the other stories
(58:09):
that would come later, right yep. And but it's just
pretty marvelous to me. I think the thing that's that's
greatest about it is the way that that he truly
makes this the story of the Silmarills, right, like the
whole this whole first age is like, you know, you
think about Lord of the Rings and it's like, what's
Borimir's famous line, and when they're in the Council of Valrondom.
He's you know, he basically says, like it's such a
(58:32):
strange thing that that there's all of this fuss about
such a small thing, right, And I'm paraphraid that's a
very poorly way of putting what Borimir said, But it's
kind of the same thing, these three small things and
this is such a huge fuss about all of this.
Speaker 2 (58:45):
Well may have the light of valinor in them, so yeah, I.
Speaker 1 (58:49):
Mean, well, and this is like the ultimate like you
could you catastrophe, you know, you think about it all right,
like this you just think of like like cinematically, like
the star arising Ahrendil's the simmer A rising above the
earth and like pretending this like just huge, like the greatest,
the greatest force that the world will ever see, like
coming to uh to do war upon more goth and
(59:09):
his forces for one last time. Right yeah, uh, you know,
unlooked for this, unloked for hope, right against all hope.
Speaker 3 (59:17):
Ye.
Speaker 1 (59:18):
All right, Well, make sure to check out Tolkien Road
dot com for show notes and a whole bunch of
other very helpful links. All right, Greta Haiku time, let's
do it, paper scissors shoot, all right, you go first.
Speaker 2 (59:34):
Okay, I gotta pull it up. Hey, okay, the Star
of high Hope, heaven bound among the birds, a curse
laid to rest.
Speaker 1 (59:50):
Nice. That's really good.
Speaker 2 (59:52):
Thanks nice, appreciate it all right.
Speaker 1 (59:56):
Here's mine age ended, ageless Sorry, age ended, ageless tale
told beneath starry Skies, vast Lands, blessed Rome.
Speaker 2 (01:00:08):
Nice.
Speaker 1 (01:00:08):
Thank you better?
Speaker 2 (01:00:10):
Oh oh you said it? I agree?
Speaker 1 (01:00:13):
Yeah, good. Here's good too, though, Well, thank you, thank you.
Speaker 2 (01:00:17):
You're welcome.
Speaker 1 (01:00:18):
Hey, subscribe rate and reviews on iTunes with a platform
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(01:00:40):
this journey through the silm Million. Proper, we still have
a couple of more passages or chapters from the Silmar
Willion to go a kalab Ethan of the Rings of
Power in the Third Age, and those will be coming
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You all so much, and a shout out to those
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(01:02:04):
l
Hey there, fellow travelers. Our twenty twenty five Silmrillion journey
continues with chapter twenty four of Quintis Silmarillion, of the
Voyage of Erendil and the War of Wrath. In chapter
twenty four, the First Age comes to a cataclysmic end
as a hero undertakes a desperate journey to Vallenor and
the powers of Aman gather for a transoceanic assault on
the forces and strongholds of Morgoth. While you're listening, check
(00:23):
out Silmguide dot com. That's Silmguide dot com for guides
to individual chapters. You can find that link in the
show notes. To support our work here, please visit patreon
dot com slash Tolkien Road Enjoy. Hey there, fellow travelers.
Welcome to The Tolkien Road, Episode three twelve. Greta, we've
reached the end of the First Age.
Speaker 2 (00:44):
Oh, yes, we have. Yes, I can't believe it.
Speaker 1 (00:48):
Yeah. Well, I mean this was your reading assignment, so
I know.
Speaker 3 (00:53):
But it's been so long since we've like done, you know,
read the Silmarillion or talked about it on there. I
guess I just had forgotten that this was the last
chapter of the silmarillim proper.
Speaker 2 (01:08):
Yes, we like to say.
Speaker 1 (01:10):
Yes, yes, indeed it is. In this episode, we'll be
discussing chapter twenty four of The Selmrilliant, of the Voyage
of Erindale and the War of Wrath. Before we get started,
we'd like to give a double up aar five to
our patrons. Hands up, stick them up, three two one
opst boom.
Speaker 2 (01:30):
That was a good one.
Speaker 1 (01:32):
Yeah, it just gets better and better every time, no doubt.
Special thanks to this episode's executive producers, John R. Caitlin
of t with Tolkien, Jacob Lockham, John H and Scotchy Bobo.
And you can become a patron by visiting patreon dot
com slash Tolkien Road. Your financial support helps the Tolkien
Road to keep on everring on and land you some
(01:52):
cool perks along the way. Learn more at patreon dot
com slash Tolkien Road. Hey YouTube, hit that light button,
don't forget to subscribe, and let us know what's on
your mind in the comments below. All right, let's kick
this recap discussion of chapter twenty four of The Silm
Million off with a quote from the film Million Great
(02:15):
was the sorrow of Eerindil and Elwing for the ruin
of the havens of Syrian and the captivity of their sons,
and they feared that they would be slain. But it
was not so, for Maglore took pity upon Elros and
el Rond, and he cherished them, and love grew after
between them, as little might be thought. But Maglore's heart
was sick and weary with the burden of the dreadful oath.
(02:39):
All right, I just thought that was a good quote.
Speaker 2 (02:42):
That's a great yeah.
Speaker 1 (02:44):
So, with Morgoth having crushed the great kingdoms of belleriond,
the remnant and hope of Middle Earth stands upon the
edge of oblivion. It is the hour for the fulfillment
of prophecy, and out of this peril heroic deeds shine forth.
Disclaim you should read this story before you listen to
this episode, And as with each episode, we won't be
covering every detail of this chapter, but instead doing our
(03:06):
best to hit the high points and unpack interesting and
important details. If we miss something, you guys want to
discuss more, let us know, all right. So, from the
Tale of Years and the War of Jewels, this the
time period for this is roughly it's actually almost one
hundred year time period from the year of the sun
five oh eight to the year of the Sun six hundred.
(03:27):
So all right, well, let's uh, let's dive into the
details here. So we learn that that Airindil and el
Wing are going upon embark upon, uh this sea voyage.
And at first it's simply Airindil. Right, he has two purposes,
(03:49):
find too war in Nidral his parents, and deliver a
message to Vallin or that's his. Those are his his
twin purposes for this voyage into the west. And he
does so upon this ship called Vingolot. So let's read
a little bit about Vingolot, So, Greta, can you read
(04:10):
this quote right here?
Speaker 3 (04:12):
In the yellow yep with the aid of Kerdan, Erundill
built of Inglot, the foam flower fairest to the ships
of Song. Golden were its oars and white. It's timbers
hewn in the birch woods of Nimbrethel, and its sails
were as the argent moon. In the lay of Erundel
is many a thing sung of his adventures in the
(04:34):
deep and in the lands and trodden, and in many
seas and in many isles.
Speaker 2 (04:38):
But Elwing was not with.
Speaker 3 (04:39):
Him, as and she sat in sorrow by the mouths
of Syrian.
Speaker 1 (04:45):
Yeah, so so Vingolotte, that's this ship. It's the Foam Flower,
and it has sails as the argent Moon, which argent
for those of you who aren't familiar with that word,
that means silvery right of silver, right, so very very
beautiful image of this ship being lat Yeah, and.
Speaker 2 (05:08):
The oars are golden.
Speaker 3 (05:09):
So you have kind of the maybe some symbols of
the two trees going on here.
Speaker 1 (05:15):
Yeah, well and a great point. And so you know
you think of the propulsion, right, you got sails and
you got oars, right, those are the two things that
move the ship. And so yeah, you have the silver
and you have the gold, right, and those are you know,
kind of the colors of the two you know, just
generally speaking, the symbolic colors of the two trees. And
(05:35):
you also have the sun and the moon, and which
you know, golden being the sun, the silver being the moon.
And you also the two trees. And I talk about
this some in Baron and Luthian. The different colors they
kind of represent the first born and the second born
people's right, because the people the old are right, are
(05:58):
the people you can kind of think of them of
the people of the stars, right, like kind of the
silvery stars. And and then you have men Tani right,
second born, and they are the people of the sun. Right. So,
lots of lots of that overlapping imagery here himself being
uh part elf part man right, having one parent who
(06:20):
is a man, one parent who is the daughter a
daughter of an old or right. So and actually Indale
having a little bit a little bit in there of
uh uh Mayar right, being a descendant of Melion, and
I believe the same set of el Wing as well. Yeah,
(06:42):
because she's the daughter of Dior, who is the son
of Baron and Luthian, and Luthian is the daughter of
Luthian is the daughter of Meleion. Thank you. Yes, all
these names. Got to remember all these names starts tripping
us up.
Speaker 2 (06:59):
I was willing you to think of it because I
was like.
Speaker 1 (07:01):
I don't remember, yes, ye, So yeah, lots of that overlapping,
lots lots of that uh that imagery overlapping there, good stuff. Okay.
So yeah, so sets out on this voyage. He's unable
to find uh tour in and I'll read a little
(07:23):
bit about that here. Erndil found not tour nor editl
nor came. He ever, on that journey to the shores
of valen Or, defeated by shadows and enchantment, driven by
repelling winds, until in longing for el wing, he turned
homeward towards the coast of belleriand and his heart bade
him haste, for a sudden fear had fallen on him
out of dreams and the winds that before he had
(07:43):
driven with might not uh had driven with might not
now bear him back as swift as his desire. So yeah,
he's not able to find tour in Dril And eventually
he turns around back towards a coast of Baleriond and
he starts to have this fear that something bad is happening, right,
(08:04):
Just something comes upon him that something bad is happening,
And it turns out that something in fact is bad.
Bad is happening, right, and it has to do with
Dun Dun Dunn, a se merle. So yeah, the silm Merle.
Remember this some merll that Baron and Luthian obtained from
the Crown of Morgoth. Well, that some merl has been
passed down. It's still been causing some problems, right it
(08:25):
was It was of course placed within the Naglimir, right,
the necklace of the dwarfs that was given to Thingle,
and Thingle wore proudly and uh. And then he's killed
because of this thing. And it kind of changes hands
a few times, and the Sumrle eventually winds up in
the hands of Dior. Dior passes it on to el
(08:49):
Wing and and it's held by el Wing there at
the mouths of Cyrion. So and word of this some
Merl the possession this silmrel gets back to my Thros
and the remaining sons of fan Or. Now at this
point there are four sons of fan Or that are
still alive. Four of the seven are still alive. Of course, Kelligorm, Kaunthr,
(09:12):
and Kurufen have all died previously, so remaining are only Mythros, Maglore, Amrod,
and Amras. So they decide that they got to fulfill
their oath, right, so they're gonna go after this. So Marl,
they asked nicely at first, or they think they asked nicely.
You know, it's like, hey, buddy, how's it going. Uh,
(09:33):
you know, hope you guys are doing well. Let us
know if there's anything we can do to help out.
Also give us back to the Silmrel, We'll probably kill you, right.
Kind of interesting little dynamic there. So the sons of
fan Or, and of course you know el Wing and
the people of the mouths of Syrian won't yield the
jewel to Mythros and his brothers, his remaining brothers. So
(09:56):
the sons of fan Or attack the exiles of Syrian
for the Selmrell of Aaron and Luthian Greta. Do you
want to read this passage?
Speaker 3 (10:02):
Sure? For the sons of Feynor that yet lived, came
down suddenly upon the exiles of Gondolin and the remnant
of Doriath and destroyed them. In that battle, some of
their people stood aside, and some few rebelled and were
slain upon the other part, aiding Elwing against their own lords.
For such was the sorrow and confusion in the hearts
of the Eldar in those days. But Maethros and Magalore
(10:25):
won the day, though they alone remained thereafter of the
sons of Feyenor, for both Amrad and Amros were slain
too late, the ships of Kyirdon and Gilglad. The High
King came hastening to the aid of the elves of Syrion,
and Elwing was gone, and her sons then such few
of that people as did not perish, and the assault
joined themselves to Gilgalad and went with him to Balar,
(10:48):
And they told that Elros and Elrond were taken captive,
but Elwing, with the silmarle upon her breast, had cast
herself into the sea. Thus Maethros and Magalore gained not
the jewel, but it was not lost, for Alma bore up,
eling out of the waves, and he gave her the
likeness of a great white bird, and upon her breast
there shone as a star of the silmarill as she
(11:09):
flew over the water to seek Eruindil, her beloved. On
a time of night, Erundel, at the helm of his ship,
saw her come towards him as a white cloud, exceeding
swift beneath the moon, as a star over the sea,
moving in the moving in strange course, a pale flame
on wings of storm. And it is sung that she
fell from the air upon the timbers of Vingelot in
(11:31):
a swoon, nigh unto death, for the urgency of her speed,
and Erundil took her to his bosom. But in the morning,
with marveling eyes, he beheld his wife in her own
form beside him, with her hair upon his face, and
she slept.
Speaker 1 (11:45):
Yeah. Yeah, so, so some interesting stuff going on here.
First of all, you know, will note that el Ros
and Elrond, the sons of Erindil and el Wing, are
taken captive by the sons of fan Or. We do
find out later that they are okay. They fall into
(12:08):
the hands of Maglore, and Maglore, of all the sons
of fan Or, turns out to maybe be the kindest
of all of them, if any one of them can
said to be particularly kind. He actually seems to have
something of a conscience and is the one that, you know,
unfortunately maybe the weakest wild of them all, but is
the one that's always kind of being like, maybe there's
(12:29):
a better way to do this. It doesn't evolve so
much killing and violence. So and we'll come back to
that a little later in this chapter. But we have
this image of el Wing throwing herself into the sea
with the silmurle upon her breast, and and then Olmo,
good old Olmo, always always there to help, always there
(12:49):
to help in whatever way they will allow him. To
write meaning meaning like the other the other valor. Right,
it's like almost just funny to me. It seems like
he's he's this guy who just wants to like wants
to help like all the time. And the rest of
the valor are like, they're like, you know, almost stop
helping them, right, and almost like like, look, what's happening
(13:10):
to them? Come on, why can't I help them? Like
he's just and he's he's like looking to see if
they're watching. And then he's like, all right, here you go,
here's some help, right, you know, here's twenty here's twenty
bucks here. Don't don't don't tell the rest of the valor.
I gave you this, right. Actually, I don't think he cares.
I think he's just gonna do his own thing. Because
he's Almo. He is one of the three most you know,
most powerful, I guess you could say. But and I
mean he's the you know, he's the lord of the
(13:33):
sea right, so of the oceans, so you know, kind
of kind of a awesome dude.
Speaker 2 (13:40):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (13:40):
Anyway, he lifts up l wing out of the sea
and basically turns her into a bird, right, and she
is able to go and as this in this bird
form greet Vingolot right to fly to Vingolot, which is
still out at sea, and uh and Dale of course
(14:05):
takes her, and uh he finds that this bird that
he that flew to him is in fact his wife.
Speaker 2 (14:13):
So it's really beautiful imagery.
Speaker 3 (14:15):
I feel like this is just like so token right
here the way he describes Oweing where he says, on
a time of night, Arundale at the helm of his ship,
saw her come towards him as a white cloud, exceeding
swift beneath the moon, as a star over the sea,
moving in strange course, a pale flame on wings of storm.
Speaker 2 (14:38):
This is beauty. It's just beautiful.
Speaker 1 (14:40):
Yeah, yeah, it is very beautiful, beautiful imagery. You can
you can kind of picture that in your own mind's eye.
He totally describes it. Yeah, good stuff.
Speaker 2 (14:50):
Absolutely.
Speaker 1 (14:52):
Sod sets out once again for the West, this time
with the soumrile. Right, so bef for he did not
have the silm role. Now he has the film role.
Speaker 2 (15:02):
So he had turned back around m hm.
Speaker 3 (15:05):
And now he's turning back back around now knowing the
way he was originally, you.
Speaker 1 (15:09):
Know, because he finds out from l Wing that it's
kind of like all hopes lost right back in back
in Middle Earth, right back in Valerion at this point, right,
the sons of fan Or have done their thing, and
I mean they've they've attacked these people who are already
like on like just trying to survive at this point,
right against all hope, and you know, fellow elves have
(15:29):
come and attacked them, and so, uh, I can't reader
we bring I can't remember if we brought this up
in that passage that we just read, but yeah, Amrod, Yeah,
so you read that Amrod and Amras are both slain.
So there's only two surviving sons of fan Or now, right,
may the rose mather Ros and Maglore. Right, So but
(15:55):
you know they've nevertheless this, the sons of fan Or
and whatever there armies consist of, right have have done this,
and you know, I mean they basically attacked like it's
almost like attacking a refugee camp or something like that.
You know, it's pretty low, pretty low, and it's you know,
it's the third kin slaying is really what it is, right,
because because you know they've these are ken right, They're
(16:19):
they're all they're they're an old or or if they're
not an old or they're closely related Elves right, so.
Speaker 2 (16:26):
Tooks right.
Speaker 1 (16:28):
Yes, they took l Rondon el Ros, but like I
said before, h fortunately l Rond and el Ros are safe,
relatively safe in the hands of Mogula, right, so that's good.
Speaker 3 (16:40):
It's only the least sketch of all the son maybe.
Speaker 1 (16:45):
Right, Yeah, yeah, he's the he's the nice son of
fan or yeah right, which isn't saying which isn't saying much,
but he is nevertheless the If you're going to fall
into the hands of any one of them, you probably
want to fall into the hands of Maga. So yes,
we got Aarendel setting out once more for the west,
this time with the summer ell. He makes it to
the Immortal Shores first of mortal men, it's pretty quiet,
(17:08):
and the Blessed Realm.
Speaker 2 (17:08):
When he arrives, I think they're partying.
Speaker 1 (17:11):
Well it's one of these Yeah, It's like it's like
I feel like all whenever big stuff happens in the
Blessed Realm, it's because they're like having a festival, a feast. Yeah, yep,
the Valar. You know, you think at some point they
learned a lesson, like about you know, maybe we need
to keep more people on guard when we're having a feast,
right than just kind of like the bare minimum. But
nevertheless they're it's just you know, this is this is
(17:34):
at least not more Goth or something like that coming
to attack them, right. This is just a mere mortal
who's looking for help, right, or mere half Alvin who's
looking for help. So this is what we read about Aarundel.
When he arrives. Then Airandel said to el Wing, await
me here, for one only may bring the message that
it is my fate to bear. And he went up
(17:55):
alone into the land and came into the Calakyria, and
it seemed to him empty and silent, for even as
mor Goth and Ungolian came in ages past. So now
Erindal had come at a time of festival, and well
nigh all the Elvin folk were gone to Valemar, or
were gathered in the halls of Manwey upon Tnequetel, and
few were left to keep watch upon the walls of Tyrion.
(18:16):
But some there were who saw him from Afar and
the great light that he bore, and they went in
haste to Valemar. But Erindil climbed the green hill of Tuna,
and found it bare. And he entered into the streets
of Tyrion, and they were empty, and his heart was heavy,
for he feared that some evil had come even to
the blessed Rome. He walked in the deserted ways of Tyrion,
(18:36):
and the dust upon his raiment and his shoes was
a dust of diamonds. And he shone and glistened as
he climbed the long white stairs. And he called aloud
in many tongues, both of elves and men, but there
were none to answer him. Therefore he turned back at
last towards the sea. But even as he took the
shoreward road, once stood upon the hill and called to
him in a great voice, crying, hail Erandil of Mariner's
(18:59):
most renowned that looketh he the looked for, that cometh
that unawares the longed forour that cometh beyond hope. Hail Aerendale,
bearer of light before the sun and moon, splendor of
the children of Earth, star in the darkness, jewel in
the sunset, radiant in the morning. That voice was the
voice of Aonwi Harald of Manwey, And he came from
(19:19):
Valemar and summoned Erindil to come before the powers of
Varda and Airindil went into Valinor, into the halls of Valomar,
and never again set foot upon the lands of men.
Then the Valar took counsel together, and they summoned Olmo
from the deeps of the sea, and Aarendil stood before
their faces and delivered the errand of the two kindreds. Pardon.
He asked for the noldor and pity for their great sorrows,
(19:42):
and mercy upon men and elves, and succor and their need.
And his prayer was granted. So and I'll have you
read Manway's judgment here Greta.
Speaker 2 (19:56):
Okay.
Speaker 3 (19:57):
But when all was spoken, Manway gave judgment, and he said,
in this matter, the power of doom is given to me.
The peril that he ventured for love of the two
kindreds shall not fall upon Eruindil, nor shall it fall
upon Elwing, his wife, who entered into peril for love
of him. But they shall not walk again ever among
elves or men in the outer lands. And this is
(20:17):
my decree concerning them, to Erindil and to Elwing, and
to their sons shall be given, shall be given leave
each to choose freely to which kindred their fate shall
be joined, and under which kindred they shall be judged.
Speaker 1 (20:30):
Yeah, so this is where we have the the you
know what comes later with Elrond and el Rose at
the beginning of the second Age. Right. So Elrond, even
though he's half Elvin, he chooses to have his fate
you know, aligned with the elves, right, so you know,
he can almost be considered you know fully elf in
that way, whereas his brother el Rose chooses to have
(20:51):
his fate aligned with with the fate of men, right. Yeah,
and uh, and Erundel and Elwing both choose the fate
of the elves. And uh and actually I'm kind of
jumping ahead of myself a little bit because I wanted
to read that quote, but they do.
Speaker 2 (21:12):
And can we ask something super quick?
Speaker 1 (21:15):
Well, let me make a one point and hold I thought,
hold that thought before I forget this thing. So I
find it interesting that we didn't read this part. But
Mondos he's kind of the one that pushes the issue,
Like he says, shehall mortal man step living upon the
undying lands and yet live. And of course it's Almo
who like kind of has the good things for these
this he was born into the world and saying to
(21:35):
me whether you know he's so Almo of course again
being our friend, right, almost our friend, almost our friend.
He likes it, he loves us, right, he's our friend.
But I think it's really interesting that Arendo is unable
to please Mondos or like kind of have Mondos think
kind of favorably of him, right, But Luthian and the
(22:00):
Baron Luthian chapter at the end, she's the one that's
able to plead on before the inexorable Mandos, right, Mondos
for the restoration of Baron's life. Right, So it's really
interesting to me that that kind of lifts up Luthian
even greater. Right, is to say, like not even Airendel
can like, you know, make Mondos Mondos being the master's
(22:22):
master of fates, right, master of doom. Right, he's kind
of like you know, what's do is do right, that's
kind of how he is. And it's only Luthian, I guess,
even even beyond Aarendel who's able to you know, I
guess obtain his.
Speaker 3 (22:38):
Pity way his judgment maybe a little bit well I mean,
I don't know for sure, but something tells me Luthian
was maybe just a tad more charming than Eruindil well
and maybe probably more beautiful.
Speaker 1 (22:53):
Well, you know, she's the most beautiful among the the
children of a Lubitar, right, So yeah, absolutely, I.
Speaker 3 (23:01):
Mean she Arondila was definitely a disadvantage in both of
those respects.
Speaker 1 (23:07):
Although he is uh he descended from I.
Speaker 3 (23:11):
Mean, I'm not saying he's bad looking, but he's not
the most beautiful and he's also not a charming lady.
Speaker 1 (23:16):
So yeah, no, it's it's true. I mean, you know
what uh you what you are alluding to is a
is a true is a true thing.
Speaker 2 (23:29):
Even among the Valor?
Speaker 1 (23:30):
Yes?
Speaker 3 (23:30):
Yes, So my question is, did Eron Dill when he
set off on this errand to valen Or, do you
think he expected like never to leave, Like, did he
realize that that would be part of part of the
sacrifice he was.
Speaker 1 (23:48):
Making, that he'd never be able to come back.
Speaker 2 (23:50):
Yeah, that he basically have to stay there, stay in
valen Or.
Speaker 1 (23:54):
I mean, I don't know if he I don't know
if he knew it for certain, he might have had
an idea, but at the same time, like I think
he was. I think it when he when they went
the second time, right, He's like, there's nothing left for.
Speaker 2 (24:06):
Me here, right, right.
Speaker 1 (24:08):
I Mean the only thing I can think is that,
you know, maybe he had some hope that he would
be able to go back and see his sons again,
right el Rondon el Rose, because that's really all I mean,
he has l Wing with him at this point, right, right,
And so the only thing that you know, I think
would be major enough for him to want to go
back would be El Rondon l Rose right, to see
(24:30):
his like to rescue his sons. So that may have
been that makes sense, you know, a sacrifice on his part.
Speaker 3 (24:37):
Yeah, it just seems it just seems like I remember
when I read it the first time, I remember thinking
that that's like it's it's like it seems appropriate, right,
I mean, like like Mondo says, like, shall mortal men
step living on upon the undying lands.
Speaker 2 (24:52):
And yet live?
Speaker 3 (24:53):
Like, yeah, of course, But at the same time, it
just seems like kind of extreme, Yeah, to be like,
I mean, he he's doing this, like he's not going
because oh I just want to go see the Valor
and check out Valinori, right, I mean he's going to,
you know, for the good of others, right, right, to
try to restore peace and friendship and reconciliation. So it
(25:18):
just it just seemed like a drastic measure, I guess.
Speaker 2 (25:23):
But you're right.
Speaker 3 (25:24):
I mean, given the turn of events, and he's with
his wife, so it's probably not all bad.
Speaker 1 (25:31):
Yeah, yeah, well, I mean it certainly could be worse.
As you were talking, I was thinking about the circumstances
of this. I was kind of thinking of Frodo's choice,
you know, And it's like, at some point, I think
people put into great situations of self sacrifice like that
realize like there's nothing like the other the choice not
(25:53):
to do this isn't really much of a choice, right
even even so right, like like I could choose that,
but like, you know, but there's really nothing for me
behind and somebody had, you know, somebody has to do this,
and it looks like it's fallen to me to do it, right,
So I don't know, it's almost kind of like the
the soldier's choice, if you will, all right, the soldier's fate, right,
(26:16):
Like yeah, you know, it's like, yes, I could choose
not to, but there's nothing there's nothing for me or
anybody else in that right, and somebody has to do this, right. Yeah,
so now of course he is going to the blessed realm.
But you know this, this, this like the wrath of
the Valor, seems to be something that they do. They
(26:36):
do fear, right, So you know, especially somebody like Arendel,
who would have never actually lived in Valenor before, nor
el Wing, right, they they both were born after the
the exile of the Noldor right. Yeah, yeah, so they've
never been to Vallenor before. It's only this thing that
they've heard of. And they know that when their people
(26:58):
left val Or, they really made the people who are
in charge of ellen Or really mad or they they
defied them, right, so they expect them to not be
happy with them. I guess you could.
Speaker 2 (27:10):
Say, yeah, that makes sense, Yeah, makes sense.
Speaker 3 (27:12):
So and it also appears at Paul Simon, maybe a
Tolkien fan, because I'm wondering if it's his shoes, and
his shoes was a dust of diamonds.
Speaker 1 (27:23):
You know, he's a rich man. Don't try to dimond
Yeah that diamonds soles of her shoes. Yeah, it's a
rich girl. She don't try to hide it. It's got
diamonds on the banana. So we're just gonna turn.
Speaker 3 (27:41):
This all right, Yes, I just I mean it was
I mean like it was just kind of a funny
like mental picture as you were reading, like they can
just put your air and no, like wandering around the
breast blessed around like hello, hello.
Speaker 2 (27:56):
Anybody here?
Speaker 1 (27:57):
There's anybody home in.
Speaker 3 (27:58):
The meantime, Like he's like covered in diamond dust and
it's just I don't know, I'm like, yeah, could be worse,
Like we said.
Speaker 1 (28:06):
Yeah, well, Froto was like you get to go to Mordor, right,
you know, yeah, oh boy, Yeah, it's like you get
to go to the blessed realm. Yeah, you might get
zapped by the valor because they're just not happy to
see you, but at least it'll be beautiful on the
way there, right, and they're probably even in taking out
their wrath on you, A're probably gonna be kind of
nice to you because they're good. Right.
Speaker 3 (28:25):
If they don't look well, they probably could look scary,
and so they don't look as scary.
Speaker 2 (28:28):
But there's only more be more light there.
Speaker 1 (28:30):
You know. I hope the first time I see like,
you know, a a godlike figure, you know, face to
face that it is kind of intimidating because it'll be
a little disappointing if it's not you know.
Speaker 2 (28:43):
Yeah, yeah, I fear that intimidating, but like maybe.
Speaker 1 (28:48):
Well hopefully it's hopefully it's a hopefully it's a benevolence,
you know, godlike figure. Yeah, yeah, so that you know,
it's like it's like, oh, be not afraid, right right, Yeah,
that would be nice instead of.
Speaker 2 (29:00):
Like aspiring but not scary.
Speaker 1 (29:04):
Yeah, exactly. Yes, all right. So, uh, as I previously mentioned, Adal,
el Wing and their offspring get to choose their fate.
So we know that Aerdal and el Wing choose choose
to side, you know, with the elves, right.
Speaker 2 (29:25):
So could they have chosen otherwise?
Speaker 1 (29:27):
I mean, there's let's read this passage. Let's read this passage, right,
I'll start, Yeah, I'll go and read this one. Then
Adal said to el Wing, choose thou for now, I
am weary of the world. And el Wing chose to
be judged among the firstborn children of a Lebatar because
of Luthian and for her sake. Erindale chose alike, though
his heart was rather with the kindred of men. The
(29:48):
people of his father. Then at the bidding of the
so Aarondil chooses. His heart was was with the people
of his father, Metuor, who was a man, but he
chose because of his love for Elwing. He chose to
side on the side that she chose. Then, at the
bidding of the Valar, aon Wi went to the shores
(30:09):
of Aman, where the companions of Erindil still remained awaiting tidings.
And he took a boat, and the three mariners were
set therein and the Valar drove them away into the
east with a great wind. But they took Vingelot and
hallowed it, and bore it away through Valinor to the
uttermost rim of the world. And there it passed through
the door of night and was lifted up even into
the oceans of heaven. Now fair and marvelous was that
(30:31):
vessel made, And it was filled with a wavering flame,
pure and bright. And there Indel the mariner sat at
the helm, glistening with dust of elven gems, and the
Silmarilla was bound upon his brow. Far he journeyed in
that ship even into the starless voids. But most often
was he seen at morning or at evening glimmering in
sunrise or sunset as he came back to Valinor from
(30:53):
voyages beyond the confines of the world. So again, awesome image.
There becomes the Star Sailor, right, and uh, he's you know,
he's lifted up into the heavens along with his ship Vingolot. Right,
it's hallowed, lifted up there along with the sel marillion,
(31:13):
the selm Marillion of Baron and Luthian, right, Which don't
you just love how all this stuff is weave together,
right like that they Baron and Luthian and that amazing
story they obtained this this somrle from the iron crown
of Morgoth. It's passed on and it becomes it becomes
the jewel that's upon this ship. This this ship that's
lifted into the heavens, hallowed, lifted into the heavens ving
(31:35):
a lot along with the Star Sailor. Right. So little
side note that just occurred to me. All right, So
I thought this was really interesting. So I'm reading currently
reading when I'm not reading Tolkien, which there's not a
lot of time I have to read when I'm not
reading Tolkien. But I'm currently reading Midnight in the Garden
of Good and Evil and which you've read, Gretta, and
(31:58):
some of you might have read as well well. But
there there's something really cool in there where he's talking
about this poet Conrad Aiken, who lived in who I
guess grew up and who was from Savannah, and and
he he talks about this thing where I think it
may have been like what Conrad Aiken put upon his
tombstone or something like that. And he basically he was
(32:21):
in the habit of like looking at the different ships
that were coming into Savannah, which is, you know, this
port on the southern coast on the on the coast
of Georgia, right in the United States, and he's like
looking at he finds these two names of ships, right
that are going to be in the port during that
period of time, and it's one of them is Cosmos
(32:43):
Mariner and the other one is Destination Unknown. And so
he put those two together and it became I think
he made it. I think he made it his the
epitaph on his tombstone. Right, So Cosmos Mariner Destination Unknown. Right,
But that made me think of Arundel, right, I mean,
you think of Airendel right there, right, Cosmos mariner, destination unknown.
(33:04):
And that's that's just that's about as cool of a
you know, of an epitaph as you can put on
a tombstone right there. So if it was in fact
his epitaph.
Speaker 2 (33:14):
Yeah, so.
Speaker 1 (33:17):
I also I didn't look this up, But there is
like this name Aarendil is a really it's not one
that Tolkien came up with himself, right, it's actually it
actually goes way back before Tolkien's own writing. And let
me see, maybe this has to maybe this has to
do with it. Tolkien used the original Old English name
(33:39):
Aarendel for all drafts previous to the Lord of the Rings,
and first he related it with the Elvish words ai
eagle and aarn i r. But the exact meaning of
the name remained unclear within the legendarium until he made
the name into Quenya to Airendil.
Speaker 2 (33:55):
But you're saying he didn't make up the name.
Speaker 1 (33:57):
The name Aarendel is goes back into Old English, right,
And it's actually there's really there's some kind of beautiful
old poetry that alludes to that that talks about Arendil.
And let's see here is this it? Okay, it's one
(34:20):
of his earliest it's one of Tolkien's earliest poems. But
then there's I believe there's like a poem that goes
way back in history, like well before Tolkien's life that
has to do with this. And it's as I remember
it again, I didn't look any of this up before.
I'm going searching back to my memory from several years
ago when I was teaching about this poem. But this
poem has to do with kind of this. It's almost
(34:43):
like an allusion to Christ right as the you know
as this star right, so this hoped for looked for
star right hopeful star kind of kind of deal. So anyway,
that was a very nebulous allusion to something that I'm
pretty sure or exists. But do without what you will. Okay,
(35:07):
back to the Silmarillion, the silm Marillion in the Sky.
Let's read a little bit about this and how when
it first when when Arundel and Binglota first raised up
into the sky, how it's seen in back in BALERIOND. So, Greta,
can you read this?
Speaker 2 (35:23):
Yes? Now? When first I'll start over.
Speaker 3 (35:28):
Now, when first Vingolott was set to sail in the
seas of heaven, it rose unlooked for, glittering and bright,
and the people of Middle Earth beheld it from afar
and wondered, and they took it for a sign and
called it gil Estel, the star of high Hope. And
when this new star was seen at evening, Methros spoke
to Magalore, his brother, and he said, surely that is
(35:49):
a silmurle that shines now in the west. And Magalore answered,
if it be truly the silm Morle which we saw
cast into the sea, that rises again by the power
of the Valar, then let us be glad, for its
glory is seen now by many, and is yet secure
from all evil. Then the elves looked up and despaired
no longer, but more Goth was filled with doubt.
Speaker 1 (36:11):
Yeah, so again, you know Maglore, like, you know, you
can't help, but just like like Maglore a little bit
and feel kind of bad for him, right, like, because
he truly seems like he's a good soul and he's
just been you know, by birth, he's been loupten with
all these guys that are that are just kind of jerks,
right and I mean he's like he's basically like, isn't
it wonderful? Then? Now everybody gets to see this film.
Speaker 2 (36:32):
Rule and it's protected from evil.
Speaker 1 (36:35):
And all of his other brothers would have been like, no,
it's ours, right, you know, you know, nobody else has
a right to see. Yeah.
Speaker 3 (36:43):
Anyway, I wonder what it was about it that made
that made may Throws like recognize it.
Speaker 2 (36:50):
I think just it's brilliant, or.
Speaker 1 (36:52):
I think they would have just known, right, like like
probably the light of it was was unlike any other light,
you know, Yeah, that makes sense. Yeah, so if it
be truly the summer el Yeah. So and then it
says more Goth sees it and is filled with doubt. Right,
so he's like, uh, this doesn't look good. Why is
(37:14):
that up there?
Speaker 3 (37:15):
Yeap?
Speaker 1 (37:16):
And it is the I guess star rising that portends
the War of Wrath. Right, so we finally arrived at
this climactic battle of the First Age, right, the ultimate
final battle of the First Age, where all the North
is a flame with war. So, yeah, a couple of
(37:39):
paragraphs here. The meeting of the hosts of the West
and of the North is named the Great Battle and
the War of Wrath. There was marshaled the whole power
of the Throne of more Goth and it had become
great beyond count so that anfaluglyth could not contain it,
and all the north was a flame with war, but
it availed him not. The ball Rogs were destroyed, save
(37:59):
some few that fled and hid themselves, and caverns inaccessible
at the roots of the earth. And the uncounted legions
of the Orcs perished like straw and a great fire,
or were swept like shriveled leaves before a burning wind.
Few remained to trouble the world for long years after,
and such few as were left of the three houses
of the alf friends fathers of men fought upon the
(38:20):
part of the Valar, and they were avenged in those days,
for Baragund and Barrahir, Galdoor and Gundor, Huor and Hurun,
and many other of their lords. But a great part
of the sons of men, whether of the people of
oldor or others new, come out of the east marched
with the enemy. And the elves do not forget it. Then,
seeing that his hosts were overthrown and his power dispersed, more,
(38:43):
Goth quailed, and he dared not to come forth himself,
But he loosed upon his foes the last desperate assault
that he had prepared, and out of the pits of
Agband there issued the winged dragons that had not been seen,
not before been seen. And so sudden in ruinous was
the onset of that dreadful fleet that the host of
the Valar was driven back, for the coming of the
dragons was with great thunder and lightning and a tempest
(39:06):
of fire. So massive, massive battle. You know, it's so
large that not even that battle plane that on fog Lith,
the gasping dust right outside of Angban, it's I mean,
it's it's larger than even that huge battlefield, right for
all the forces that are allied here. I didn't read
this passage, but you know you can read about the
forces that are coming from Valanar for this voyage. It's
(39:28):
interesting that Tallarry don't don't themselves participate in the battle,
but they they basically agree to give transport and they don't.
They don't participate in the battle because they're still upset
about the kin sling, right, But they do give transport
on their ships uh to the van Yard and to
the Noldor who remained behind led by Phenarfin and and
(39:50):
then a host of you know, what I assume are
kind of mayar sorts of force, you know forces. So
we know at least a comes and uh, and you
know there's this massive host, right, kind of a d
day sort of force here going on. Right, So the
(40:12):
what we you know, what we learned through all of this.
There's a destruction of many ball rocks, though some fled
to the roots of the earth. The old friends, fathers
of men made the hosts of Valar, but not all
men do. Winged dragons are unleashed and the host of
the Valor are driven back. Aarendil and eagles take on
the dragons, and on Kalagon the Black is slain by Erendil. Right,
(40:34):
so we have this battle between Aarendel and his and
his envingelot there in the heavens, and Airindil slays this
on Kalagon the Black and then angband is raided and
Morgoth taken captive, and the last two sommarles recovered. So, Greta,
do you want to read this, Blue Passenger?
Speaker 3 (40:54):
Then the sun rose and the hosts of the Valar prevailed,
and well nigh all the dragons were destroyed and all
the pits of Morgoth were broken and unroofed, and the
might of the valor descended into the deeps of the earth.
There more Goths stood at last at bay, And yet unvaliant,
he fled into the deepest of his minds and sued
for peace and pardon. But his feet were hewn from
(41:14):
under him, and he was hurled upon his face. Then
he was bound with the chain of guy Noor, which
he had worn for time, and his crown, and his
iron crown. They beat into a collar for his neck,
and his head was bowed upon his knees. And the
two silmurils which remained to Morgoth were taken from his crown,
and they shone, unsullied, beneath the sky, and aon Way
(41:38):
took them and guarded them.
Speaker 1 (41:40):
Yeah, so more Gooth is defeated. More Goth is defeated,
and uh they really you know, it's the first time
he was defeated. You know, wash was bad enough for him.
This time it's going to be even worse, right, because
he fooled them, right, it's full fooled me once. Shame
(42:00):
on you, fool me twice, Shame on me. Right, They're
they're not going to be fooled again by more goth yep,
I mean they hew his feet out from under him.
That's got to be pretty awful even for a even
for a god.
Speaker 3 (42:12):
Right, yeah, and just having a collar put on you,
I mean so like degrading.
Speaker 1 (42:18):
Well, and it's and the symbolism of being his iron crown,
yeah right, that was what was his iron crown, right
with the swere else like kind of the you know,
the image the symbol of his glory, right and of
his evil glory, I guess you could say. And he's
had this collar, you know, it's beaten to a collar
and put around his neck, right, just a little adding
(42:40):
some insult to injury there for sure.
Speaker 3 (42:42):
Yeah, yeah, definitely showing that I think that, you know
what he thought that crown being his his uh crowning glory, right,
the source of his power, a symbol of his power,
was truly what was you know, is now a symbol
of his captivity.
Speaker 1 (43:01):
Yeah. Yeah. It should also be mentioned that we learn
here why you know, for those of you who pick
up the Silmarillion for the first time and our second
or third time and you're looking at that map in
there and you're like, this doesn't look like Middle Earth,
you know it? I guess it kind of looks like
Middle Earth, but it doesn't really look like the Middle Earth.
(43:21):
It's in Lord of the Rings. Well, now you learn why,
right now you learn exactly why. So through all of
this great cataclysmic battle, it says, for so great was
the fury of those adversaries, that the northern regions of
the western world were rent asunder, and the sea roared
in through many chasms, and there was confusion and great noise,
and rivers perished or found new paths, and the valleys
(43:43):
were upheaved, and the hills trod down, and Syrion was
no more. So this whole region of Bellerion is basically
thrust under the waves, right thrust under the sea in
the cataclysm of this battle. So that's why when you
look at the map of the Third Age, all of
that area to the west right, very little of that
(44:05):
still remains in the Third very little of what you
see kind of to the west of that area. I
should say right there that that's where Bellerian would be,
But it's beneath the sea and the Third Age, right,
this kind of area right here, all right, So that's
why there's no more Belarion. And a way say summons
(44:29):
the elves of Bellerion to return to Valenor, and Mythros
and Magloa refuse and have this conversation about whether the
oath is still valid. Excuse me all right, then, aon
Way is herald of the elder king. Some in the
elves of Blarion to depart from Middle Earth. But Mythros
and Magloa would not hearken, and they prepared, though now
(44:51):
with weariness and loathing, to attempt and despair the fulfillment
of their oath, for they would have given battle for
the Silmariles were they withheld even against the victorious to Valenor,
even though they stood alone against all the world. And
they send a message therefore to Aonway, bidding him yield
up now those jewels which of old fan Or their
father made, and more Goth stole from him. But aon
(45:13):
Wi answer that the right to the work of their father,
which the sons of fan Or formally possessed, had now
perished because of their many and merciless deeds, being blinded
by their oath, and most of all because of their
slaying of Dior and the assault upon the havens. The
light of the simm rules should go now into the west,
whence it came in the beginning, And to Valanars, must
(45:34):
Mithros and Maglor return and there abide the judgment of
the Valar, by whose decree alone would away yield the jewel,
yield the jewels from his charge. Then Maglor desired, indeed
to submit, for his heart was sorrowful, and he said,
the oath says not that we may not bide our time,
And it may be that in Valenor all shall be
forgiven and forgot, and we shall come into our own
in peace. But Mythros answered that if they returned to Aman,
(45:58):
but the favor of the Valar were worth held from them,
then their oath would still remain, But its fulfillment be
beyond all hope. And he said, who can tell to
what dreadful doom we shall come if we disobey the
powers in their own land, or purpose ever to bring
war again into their holy realm. Yet Maglar still held back, saying,
if Manuey and Varda themselves deny the fulfillment of an
(46:18):
oath to which we named them in witness, is it
not made void? And Mythros answered, but how shall our
voices reach to a Lubatar beyond the circles of the world,
And by a Lubatar we swore in our badness and
called the everlasting darkness upon us if we swept, if
we kept not our word, who shall release us? If
none can release us, said Maglore. Then indeed the everlasting
(46:40):
darkness shall be our lot, whether we keep our oath
or break it. But less evil shall we do in
the breaking. So you know, again we have this image.
I mean, it's a great dialogue right here, it really is.
It's just great. But you know, again, Maglore, you're just
like like, oh, Magalore, I feel for you man, and
(47:03):
you know you got to deal with He's like really
stubborn Kensman, right, and he's basically just looking for any
way out, right. He wants any way out. He's like, look,
we you know, maybe we'll go back and they'll give us,
you know, they'll give us the jewels, right, And Mythros
is like, yes, but if we go back and we
don't and they don't, then you know we're in a
(47:25):
bad spot because we can no longer we no longer
have any way to obtain the jewels for ourselves. And
and he says like, well, we named man Way and
vardas witness right of our oath. So if they if
they deny the fulfillment of the oath, then like, what
you know, isn't that releasing us from the oath? And
(47:45):
then Mythros is like, but what about Alubatar?
Speaker 3 (47:48):
Right?
Speaker 1 (47:49):
We know, how how will we obtain the forgiveness of
a Lubatar for all this? Right? And It's like, well, mon,
you know you wouldn't be like, well, Manway like he's
the one that talks to Alubatar, so if you're nice
enough to him, maybe he can help you out right,
And Moglar is like, well, at least even if we
don't fulfill the oath, at least we don't have to
(48:10):
do more evil right in the process. And it's ultimately
my throws wins out. You know, poor Maglore, he just
can't like, oh, you just want to give him a hug.
You're like, oh, man, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, you got
loop you got looped in with this lot that really
stinks for you. He he, he wants so badly to
just be done with this oath right and to find
some way out of it, and he's unable, you know,
(48:33):
he's well, see, I think any one of those ways
might have worked, right, but my throws just the stubbornness
ingrained in these various figures my Throws and uh, and
then the other sons of fan Or who are gone
Fan or himself, it just won't give It won't give way.
(48:53):
So I don't know any thoughts on all that, Greta, No.
Speaker 3 (48:59):
I mean, it's uh, it's a tough spot, you know,
I mean it's really I mean, you kind of understand
this was an oath they made with their dad, right,
and it was obviously like, you know, they've done so
much in the name of it, already, so much evil.
Speaker 2 (49:18):
Yeah, at one.
Speaker 3 (49:20):
Point you're kinda like, you know, the one side, I
guess I can see both sides. Right On one side,
it's like, well, we've already like countless lives have been sacrificed,
and you know, we've done.
Speaker 1 (49:34):
All these things, we've gone this far, we've.
Speaker 3 (49:36):
Gone this far exactly, what's just one more? You know,
like honor our father? Right, I mean that's kind of
the argument.
Speaker 1 (49:44):
Well, you know that in the doing of great evil,
like at some point, that's the calculus, right, That's that's
the calculus that feels like it remains to you, right,
Like it's like, well, I've already done this. There's really
really no going back at this point. Right. But that's
the thing I can't help it. Rereminded in this in
this dialogue of what I think of is like the
(50:06):
the archetypes of of forgiveness in the Gospels, right, And
it's you got Peter and you got Judas, right and
maglre uh And I've always thought of them like they
both commit these horrible sins associated with the crucifixion of Christ, right,
the crucifixion of their of their master right. And ultimately
(50:28):
the difference between the two of them is that because
I don't believe for a second the Judas the forgiveness
wasn't available to Judas, right, But Judas chooses this path
of despair, right, which ultimately my Throst is advocating for
right here, right. And because in the end, even if
they get the somewhere else, they're still like they've done evil,
Like they've just done more evil.
Speaker 2 (50:49):
Right, and you know, no good it's gonna come up in.
Speaker 1 (50:52):
No good, Yeah, you know, no good's gonna come of it. It's
like when do you stop choosing that path?
Speaker 2 (50:55):
Right?
Speaker 1 (50:56):
But and then Maglare is like, you know, the Peter path, right,
he chooses even though he's you know, Peter denied Christ
three times in his in his most dire situation. But
Christ offers forgiveness to him and he receives the forgiveness, right,
And maglor is like kind of advocating for that path,
but unfortunately that path doesn't went out here, right you know,
(51:20):
so you know you have you just have this image
of like, we we've gone down this road already so far,
what really could be available to us anymore? And it's
like extreme forgiveness, right, maybe it does actually, maybe it
is actually a thing. Maybe you should explore that option
instead of continuing to do more evil, right, because it's
the evil that you do. You do it to others,
(51:41):
but and ultimately you do it to yourself. Right.
Speaker 3 (51:44):
And you know, Erindel is like proof himself that these
soil morels could be used for good, right, I mean
he's he comes to be known as the star of
high hope, right, that soil morale that's in the sky.
So it's like they don't you know, they don't have
to be associated with the evil.
Speaker 1 (52:02):
You know that that made me think of something that's really,
that's really good. And they might have known that the Valor, right, Like,
what did they do? They put the they put the
silmarill that they had that they obtained from Airendil. They
didn't keep it for themselves, right, they used it unselfishly.
They put it in the sky. Is this is this
(52:23):
sign of hope? Right? And the people of Middle Earth? Right,
they gave it back to all the people of Middle Earth. Right. Yeah.
So if they had just kind of thought about that
for a minute and said in themselves, right that maybe
you know, maybe these Valor are actually more benevolent than
we realize.
Speaker 3 (52:40):
Right, Yeah, that's a great point, you know. I mean
what they did was the opposite, you know, the opposite
of selfish, right, yeah, I mean yeah, yeah, I mean
that it would have been nice if they realized that,
oh okay, maybe you could share this and everybody wins,
right yeah.
Speaker 1 (52:59):
Yeah. Well, and and ultimately at this point, like myglore
just sounds spent. He's like he sounds like he doesn't
even want the silm rules anymore, really, right, And but
my throat maybe still has some of that some of
that hunger within him. Right for them? Well, again, like
that's that to me, it was a really great passage
(53:20):
and there's a lot. There's a lot going on there,
I feel like, mm hmm for sure. So what we
do learn is that they go, they go down the
path that my Throat is kind of mapping out for them,
and they do manage to obtain the silm rules. My
throws is agonized by his and cast himself into a
pit of fire right and kind of into the heart
of the earth. And uh so that's the end of
(53:42):
my Throats. And then Maglore casts his into the sea, right,
he's just done with it, and he casts it into
the sea, and and then he just wanders upon the shores.
So my Throas we know his fate. He dies here
at the end of the first Age, and Maglore we
don't know his fate. All we know is these this
one ring man of you Elf of song right, So
(54:04):
kind of a kind of an interesting image fate, unknown
fate for Maglore.
Speaker 2 (54:09):
There so not a happy one though, it sounds.
Speaker 1 (54:12):
I don't think so. He sounds like he's the sad
elf wondering the shores, right, the sad song singing the
sad song of the sea, right for for all of
history seem and that's.
Speaker 3 (54:25):
How it came that one simhearls in the heavens one
and the fires the heart. And we talked about this
a little bit too, didn't we when we were talking
about the show.
Speaker 1 (54:36):
Yeah, yeah, we do know one resides in the heart
of the earth. And there was some illusion on the
show that maybe, you know, with the when they kind
of talk about how n Thrill came about that that
maybe that had something to do Silmarle somehow brought you know,
had something to do with that that's in the heart
of the earth, but that wasn't specified.
Speaker 2 (54:55):
So and there's one obviously in the deep waters.
Speaker 1 (54:58):
That's right, yep, that's right. The elves, the remaining elves
are bidden to return to Valenor, and many of them do,
but cured on Caliborne, Galadriel, Gilgalad and Elrond, don't It
says when they came into the west, the elves of
Bellerion dwelt upon tol Ercea, the lonely isle that looks
(55:18):
both west and east, whence they might come even to Valenor.
They were admitted again to the love of Manwey and
the pardon of the Valar, and the Tilari forgave their
ancient grief, and the curse was laid to rest. Yet
not all the Adalier were willing to forsake the hitherlands,
where they had long suffered and long dwelt, and some
lingered many an age in Middle Earth. Among those were
(55:38):
cured on the Shipwright Caliborne of Doriath, with Galadriel his wife,
who alone remained in those of those who led then
Oldor to exile in belleriond and Middle Earth dwelt. Also Gilgalad,
the High King, and with him was Helrond half Elvin,
who chose, as was granted to him, to be numbered
among the Eldar. But Elros's brother chose to abide with men.
And from these brethren alone has come among men the
(55:59):
blood of the first born in a strain of the
spirits divine that were before Arda. For they were the
sons of Elwing Dior's daughter, Luthian's son child of Thingle
and Melion and Arendel. Their father was the son of
Idriel calibrindl Torgon's daughter of Gondolin. But Morgoth himself the
Valar thrust through the door of night beyond the walls
(56:19):
of the world into the timeless void, and a guard
is set forever on those walls, and Arndil keeps watch
upon the ramparts of the sky. Yet the lies that Melchor,
the mighty and accursed mor Goth Boghlier, the power of
terror and of hate sowed in the hearts of elves
and men, or a sea that does not die and
cannot be destroyed, and ever and and on it sprouts
anew and will bear dark fruit even unto the latest days.
(56:41):
So mor Goth is thrust beyond the walls of the world.
Arundel Kin keeps him out out there. But we have
this note that the seeds he sowed, right, the seeds
he sowed in the hearts of elves and men, they
persist right, They are still with us even to this day.
(57:05):
So it's the final note. Here Here ends the silm million.
If it has passed from the end, from the high
and the beautiful, to darkness and ruin that was of old,
the fate of Ardemard. And if any change shall come
and the marring be amended, Manway and Varda may know,
but they have not revealed it, and it is not
declared in the dooms of Mandos. So that ends the
film million proper, the end of the film million. Yeah,
(57:27):
any final thoughts there, Greta on those. I know, this
chapter is really good. It's really so much happens in it,
and I feel like this alone could be like a
three volume book, you know, like yeah, you know, if
you you know, just flesh flesh, the whole thing out.
And I believe it was of the Three Great Tales.
(57:47):
This was actually kind of the fourth grade tale that
was in you know, Tolkien intended to be a longer,
longer poem, longer poetic work, kind of epic poem, and
as we there are there are parts of that in
various parts of the history of Middle Earth. But yeah,
and it wraps everything up really well, but at the
same time leaves the future open for the other stories
(58:09):
that would come later, right yep. And but it's just
pretty marvelous to me. I think the thing that's that's
greatest about it is the way that that he truly
makes this the story of the Silmarills, right, like the
whole this whole first age is like, you know, you
think about Lord of the Rings and it's like, what's
Borimir's famous line, and when they're in the Council of Valrondom.
He's you know, he basically says, like it's such a
(58:32):
strange thing that that there's all of this fuss about
such a small thing, right, And I'm paraphraid that's a
very poorly way of putting what Borimir said, But it's
kind of the same thing, these three small things and
this is such a huge fuss about all of this.
Speaker 2 (58:45):
Well may have the light of valinor in them, so yeah, I.
Speaker 1 (58:49):
Mean, well, and this is like the ultimate like you
could you catastrophe, you know, you think about it all right,
like this you just think of like like cinematically, like
the star arising Ahrendil's the simmer A rising above the
earth and like pretending this like just huge, like the greatest,
the greatest force that the world will ever see, like
coming to uh to do war upon more goth and
(59:09):
his forces for one last time. Right yeah, uh, you know,
unlooked for this, unloked for hope, right against all hope.
Speaker 3 (59:17):
Ye.
Speaker 1 (59:18):
All right, Well, make sure to check out Tolkien Road
dot com for show notes and a whole bunch of
other very helpful links. All right, Greta Haiku time, let's
do it, paper scissors shoot, all right, you go first.
Speaker 2 (59:34):
Okay, I gotta pull it up. Hey, okay, the Star
of high Hope, heaven bound among the birds, a curse
laid to rest.
Speaker 1 (59:50):
Nice. That's really good.
Speaker 2 (59:52):
Thanks nice, appreciate it all right.
Speaker 1 (59:56):
Here's mine age ended, ageless Sorry, age ended, ageless tale
told beneath starry Skies, vast Lands, blessed Rome.
Speaker 2 (01:00:08):
Nice.
Speaker 1 (01:00:08):
Thank you better?
Speaker 2 (01:00:10):
Oh oh you said it? I agree?
Speaker 1 (01:00:13):
Yeah, good. Here's good too, though, Well, thank you, thank you.
Speaker 2 (01:00:17):
You're welcome.
Speaker 1 (01:00:18):
Hey, subscribe rate and reviews on iTunes with a platform
of your choice. If you're a five star fan of
the Tolkien Road, you can really help us out by
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Tolkien Road, which helps us to keep on, everring on,
and drop us a line wherever you can find us.
We'll do our best to respond to you somehow at
some point. All right, Well, thanks for joining us on
(01:00:40):
this journey through the silm Million. Proper, we still have
a couple of more passages or chapters from the Silmar
Willion to go a kalab Ethan of the Rings of
Power in the Third Age, and those will be coming
up very soon, so stay with us here on the
Tolkien Road. Thank you to our amazing patrons, especially the following,
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You all so much, and a shout out to those
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