Silmarillion 2025 » Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age

Our 2025 Silmarillion journey concludes with Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age!
The last chapter of The Silmarillion is a synoptic account of the Second and Third Ages which focuses upon the legends of the Rings of Power, all the way through the events of the late Third Age depicted in The Hobbit and The Lord of the Rings. It's something like a 50,000 foot view of the whole mass of Middle-earth's history after the First Age, right on through the story of Frodo and the Fellowship.
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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hey there, fellow travelers. Our twenty twenty five Silmarillion journey
concludes with of the Rings of Power and the Third Age.
The last chapter of the Selm Million is a synoptic
account of the Second and Third Ages, which focuses upon
the legends of the Rings of Power all the way
through the events of the late Third Age depicted in
The Hobbit and the Lord of the Rings. It's something
like a fifty thousand foot view of the whole mass

(00:21):
of Middle Earth's history after the First Age, right on
through the story of Frodo and the Fellowship. While you're listening,
check out Silmguide dot com. That's silmguide dot com for
guides to individuals Silmarillion chapters. You can find that link
in the show notes. To support our work on the
Tolkien Road, please visit Patreon dot com slash Tolkien Road Enjoy.

(00:43):
Hey there, fellow travelers, Welcome to the Tolkien Road, Episode
three point fifteen. Greta, You ready to wrap up our
SLM million twenty twenty two journey.

Speaker 2 (00:55):
I think so, Yeah, I think so. It's it's been
a long time coming. Yeah, you know, we had a
lot of stuff kind of in the middle of it.
It wasn't a straight shot.

Speaker 1 (01:08):
In particular the Rings of Power.

Speaker 2 (01:10):
Yeah, which we will kind of be talking.

Speaker 1 (01:13):
About, which we're going to be discussing today. Yeah. You know,
as we were reading this chapter, I was thinking to
myself that this show is really you know, I don't
think they had the rights to any of this in
terms of, you know, the TV rights to it, but
it's almost you know, it feels like a lot of
it is is very taken from this chapter.

Speaker 3 (01:33):
It does.

Speaker 2 (01:33):
Yeah, I was thinking the same thing.

Speaker 1 (01:34):
And honestly, if they were going to make them, if
they were going to make that show, then I wish
they had the rights to this so they could use
all this stuff in here. But anyway, that's I don't
want to make this TV Rings of Power TV show episode,
all right. In this episode, we will be discussing of
the Rings of Power and the Third Age, this synoptical
saga of Middle Arst history through the Second and Third Ages,

(01:55):
and the last chapter of the Selm Million. Before we
get started, we'd like to of a double up bear
five to our patrons. Three two one nice good? Oh?
What was that good?

Speaker 2 (02:12):
One?

Speaker 1 (02:12):
Oh? I thought you said? Oh, I was like special.
Thanks to this episode's executive producers John R. Kate left
with Tolkien, Jacob Blockham, John H. Scotchy, Bobo and Aeru
twenty seven. Thank you will so much. Thank you to
all of our patrons. If you would like to become
a patron by visiting Patreon, you can become a patron

(02:32):
by visiting patreon dot com slash Tolkien Road. Your financial
sport helps the Tolkien Road to keep on everring on
and land you some cool perks along the way. Learn
more at patreon dot com slash Tolkien Road YouTube. Hit
that like button, don't forget to subscribe, and let us
know what's on your mind in the comments below. Okay,
so our quote of the week comes from Christopher Tolkien's

(02:55):
forward to the Selm Million, in which he says a
kalaba and of the rings of power in the Third
Age are included according to my father's explicit explicit intention,
and by their inclusion, the entire history is set forth
from the music of the Ainure in which the world began,
to the passing of the ring bearers from the havens
of Mythland at the end of the Third Age. So

(03:17):
this is the one section that will actually feel pretty
familiar to you if you've only read The Hobbit and
The Lord of the Rings. Lots of Gandalf actually involved
in this one toward in the second half of it,
you know, and reading that it really made me realize,
like one thing it probably would have been good to
say at the very beginning of all this, but you know,
I guess it's just an overall insight of having gone

(03:40):
through the Silm Million again this year, This this Selm Merillion,
the book, the Selm Mirillion is really like you could
almost think of it. It's like it's like your one
stop shop for all things middle Earth, right, because it
contains you know, we think of Lord of the Rings
and The Hobbit being the primary works of middle Earth.
But really like this film Million as it is, is

(04:01):
the from the very beginning to the very end, the
whole history of Middle Earth in one book, right. And
it doesn't mean it's like all the details of those
of those histories necessarily, but it's kind of like you
could almost use it as a jumping off point, right,
or you know, you can kind of read these different,
you know, short versions of these stories and then jump

(04:23):
off into longer versions of them. In many cases, so
in this case jumping off into Lord of the Rings.
In the case of a lot of the stories in
Quintus Silm Million, you have longer versions that have since
been published. So anyways, it's kind of like an yeah,
yeah in a lot of ways. So yeah, So you know,

(04:45):
if you're a Tolkien fan, hopefully by now you realize
that The Silm Million belongs on your bookshelf. So all right,
let's dive into of the Rings of Power in the
third age. So this final chapter of The Silm Million
is really something completely separate from the rest of the book,
an age spanning synopsis of the events leading up to
and including the Hobbit and the Lord of the Rings.

(05:06):
With this chapter, Tolkien connects the legends of the Silm
Million with the events of the Lord of the Rings,
and we learned a great deal of the historical background
to Tolkien's magnum opis. So yeah, and you know, synopsis,
what does that mean, Well, it just means like a summary,
so you're you know, you're summarizing if Calibate was a
summary of three thousand years with the Fall of numenor

(05:28):
this actually takes it, and it talks about the fall
of numenor, but it's the focus is more on what's
happening back in Middle Earth during that same period and
then after the fall of numenor everything that's happening for
the next three thousand years up to and in through
and through the Lord of the Rings. All right, So
this in short, this bad Boy spans like six thousand

(05:49):
years of Middle Earth history, right, three thousand years for
a calibaate six thousand years plus. Here once again Appendix
B of Lord of the Rings as your friend. So
look at you know, if you'd kind of take Appendix
BE of Lord of the Rings, got those nice timetables
in there. You get the second age timetable and you
get the Third Age timetable as well, So those can
be handy companions for understanding when things are happening as well.

(06:12):
The other thing I'll say is this is a great
lore chapter. As I was rereading it and then earlier
this week and then re listening to it today, I
was just struck by how much background, how much, how
much how far you uh, how much of the lore

(06:33):
that isn't explained necessarily in as much detail, And like
Lord of the Rings is actually explained in a good
bit more detail here. So for example, like you know,
you learn a good bit more about the Rings of
Power and how they came to be, and how the
Nascual came to be. You learn more about Sourn, you
learn about the Pallentii, you learn how Minus Ethyl became

(06:54):
Minus Morgal. You get more background on the Astari, you know,
and off in Sarman and Rodagaest. We get a lot
more info on Dolgeldour and the White Council. I mean,
there's just there's and I could go on, right, there's
there's a lot of things in here like this. So
it's a really interesting chapter, really enjoyable chapter from a
low perspective, just knowing more about like some of these

(07:16):
open ended questions that you don't necessarily get answered in
Lord of the Rings. All right, so you know, let's
hit the high points of this chapter and some of
the key key passages here, Greta, would you read this
passage about Sauron's Souron's kind of story that leads up
to this.

Speaker 2 (07:37):
But it was not within the power of Aonwy to
pardon those of his own order, and he commanded Saarn
to return to a Mom and there receive the judgment
of Manwei. Then Saarn was ashamed, and he was unwilling
to return in humiliation and to receive from the Valura
sentence it might be of long servitude and proof of
his good faith. For under Morgoth his power had been great. Therefore,

(08:00):
when Aonway departed, he hid himself in Middle Earth, and
he fell back into evil, for the bonds that more
Goth had laid upon him were very strong.

Speaker 1 (08:10):
Yeah, I mean this and this one passage in it
of itself feels like it could be a whole long story,
you know, yeah, what happened with Sauron, And you know,
Saron was a really, really bad dude. In the first age,
he did a lot of truly horrendous, awful things in
the service of more Goth. And but it's interesting that,

(08:35):
like I feel like it, there was part of this
passage we didn't read that says that there was a
lot of people that really thought that Saron was truly
truly sorry, right, that he was truly sorry for the
things that he had done, that he that he was
truly willing to repent. But it's apparently just this unwillingness
to humble himself, you know, that was in question here,

(09:01):
you know, which gets into really interesting dynamics of like,
you know, first, on one hand, what does it mean
to be truly sorry? Or you know, especially if you've
done really awful things like he did, shouldn't you be
willing to do just about anything right within you know,
within within reason, right, shouldn't you be like I deserve
humiliation right for what I did? But it also kind

(09:26):
of actually on the flip side of that, it's like,
should somebody, like aon Way or Manway be like give
him more freedom to work it out in terms of saying,
like I believe you're truly sorry, Now prove you're truly sorry. Right,
It's kind of like almost like a instead of having
to come before the valor, it's like almost like probation

(09:48):
or something like that right now that may you know,
I'm sure there were people that argue that that's way
too soft, right for all the things that he did.
But at the very least, you know, this is the
kind of thing that I feel, like Tolkien, this is
story I could have seen Tolkien writing a longer like
unfinished tale on right, a story that just kind of
stands alone and belongs in unfinished tales you know, the
repentance of sourn Or, you know Sourn's sorrow, and it's

(10:13):
just like a study, you know, and in the dynamics
of like being sorry when you've done something really awful.
So anyway, it's a question mark, it is it does
seem to be a question mark. Here was Souron, Uh,
you know, with Sarron at a point where he truly
was wanting to turn things around and be good and

(10:33):
uh and if if that is the case, then exactly
what happened.

Speaker 2 (10:37):
So yeah, that's a good point, all right.

Speaker 1 (10:42):
So we learned a little bit later that Sourn you know,
of of Surron's involvement in the creation of the rings
of power. So this is a little bit of a
longer passage. Greta will go back and forth and reading this.
I'll get it, I'll start it, and then we'll switch paragraphs.
It was in a region that the councils of Salaron
were most gladly received, for in that land the Nuldor desired,

(11:05):
ever to increase the skill and subtlety of their works. Moreover,
they were not at peace in their hearts, since they
had refused to return into the West, and they desired
both to stay in Middle Earth, which indeed they loved,
and yet to enjoy the bliss of those that had departed.
Therefore they hearkened to Sauran, and they learned of him
many things, for his knowledge was great. In those days,

(11:26):
the smiths of austin Etheil surpassed all that they had
contrived before, and they took thought, and they made rings
of power. But Sauron guided their labors, and he was
aware of all that they did, for his desire was
to set a bond upon the elves and to bring
them under his vigilance.

Speaker 2 (11:42):
Now that the elves made many rings, but secretly Saaran
made one ring to rule all the others, and their
power was bound up with it, to be subject wholly
to it, and to last only so long as it,
too should last. And much of the strength and will
of Saaran passed into that one ring. For the power
power of the elven rings was very great, and that

(12:02):
which should govern them must be a thing of surpassing potency.
And Tsaron forged it in the Mountain of Fire, in
the land of Shadow. And while he wore the one ring,
he could perceive all the things that were done by
means of the lesser rings, and he could see and
govern the very thoughts of those that wore them.

Speaker 1 (12:21):
But the elves were not so lightly to be caught.
As soon as Sauron set the one ring upon his finger,
they were aware of him, and they knew him, and
perceived that he would be master of them and of
all that they wrought. Then, in anger and fear, they
took off their rings. But he, finding that he was
betrayed and that the elves were not deceived, was filled
with wrath, and he came against them with open war,

(12:41):
demanding that all the rings should be delivered to him,
since the Elvin smiths could not have attained to their
making without his lore and counsel. But the elves fled
from him, and three of their rings they saved, and
bore them away and hid them.

Speaker 2 (12:53):
Now these were the three that had been that had
last been made, and they possessed the greatest powers Nenya
and Vilia. They were named the rings of fire and
of water and of air, set with ruby and adamant
and sapphire. And of all the elviin rings, saar On
most desire to possess them, for those who had them

(13:14):
in their keeping could ward off the decays. Of time
and postpone the weariness of the world. But Saarron could
not discover them, for they were given into the hands
of the Wise, who concealed them and never again used
them openly, while Saarron kept the ruling Ring. Therefore, the
three remained unsullied, for they were forged by kilibrim boor alone,
and the hand of Saarron had never touched them. Yet

(13:36):
they also were subject to the one.

Speaker 1 (13:38):
Now I have to point out again reference you know,
and I will make some references to Rings of Power
where its appropriate. The three rings, it says clearly they
were made last, and in the show they're clearly made. First.
You might say, well, maybe Salarn already me the ring. No,
he couldn't, because the ring is the one ring is
forged in the fires of Mountain Doom, and mounta Doom
had literally just been created in the story of the show.

(14:01):
So Lord fail there for Rings of Power. All right, Yeah,
But I just love passages like these because it really
it really has you pondering, like what does it mean that,
like like kind of how would that work? That suron?

(14:22):
With this one ring is able to view the minds
of all the of these other individuals and you and
you overlap you overlap that too with the idea of
the Pallentiri and the seeing stones that the Newmnorians had
been given, and h it's it's just it's interesting to

(14:43):
think about, like, first, like you have Souron like pouring
himself his own power into the into the one ring,
and you harken back to more goth and think about
him pouring himself into all of his kind of vile
manipulations like that aren't white subcreations, They're like you know,
they're they're like evil subcreations, right, And how that like

(15:07):
makes him sort of his power diffuse, Right, He's like
put his power into this other thing, into these other things,
and that makes him on an individual basis less powerful
apart from them. Right, It's like the yeah, yeah, yeah,
And so there there's just a lot to be pondered
here about the I guess the metaphysics, if you will,

(15:30):
of the rings, right, what makes them? What makes them work?
What is what is Tolkien getting at with using this
idea of having a one ring and all these other
rings and this one ring that governs them all, the
idea that the three Elven rings somehow help preserve the
beauty of what elves are capable of doing, right, like,

(15:53):
of what elves do for the world, and how when
the one ring we learn later, when the one Ring
is destroyed, it kind of like destroys the power of
the other rings as well, right right, Yeah, I mean
there's just a lot of like there's a lot of
deep thought that should be going on with this and
trying to, you know, kind of recover what Tolkien had
in mind here, and you know, I don't know of

(16:15):
any like really, there are probably some really good explorations
of this, of these ideas, but I've never really read
any that. I'm like, that's a really interesting exploration of
like the metaphysics of the rings, right, of the rings
of power, like how they work. Because I don't believe
for a second that Tolkien hadn't thought deeply about this himself.

Speaker 2 (16:35):
I mean, how could he not have. I Mean, it's
basically like the it's I mean, it's called the Lord
of the Rings, right, I mean, yeah, it's the it's
the core of his you know, most famous work. What
I think is really kind of jumped out to me
in this passage was that it was.

Speaker 3 (16:56):
The elves who.

Speaker 2 (16:58):
Were who were aware of Sarn, Like as soon as
he put that ring upon his finger, they were aware
of him. It doesn't mention that anybody else was, right,
just the elves, right, So there's obviously some kind of
connection right between the elves and the you know, whatever

(17:21):
power is kind of embedded in the one ring that
that they would be able to recognize it.

Speaker 1 (17:29):
Yeah, yeah, Well when we see that as well, kind
of compare contrast with the with the Rings of Power show,
it says those who had the the elven rings and
their keeping could ward off the decay of time and
postpone the weariness of the world. And if I remember
from the Rings of Power, the way they had put
it was, it's almost like life or death for the elves, right,

(17:53):
And I just don't like, I think there's something similar,
but it's almost like that's it's not it's not quite
the same thing to me. So I don't want and
again I don't want to really dwell on that right now.
But you know, warding off the decays of time and
postponing the weariness of the world. This is not necessarily
like we're all gonna die like if we don't, if

(18:17):
we don't do something, you know if we don't harness
this mythrill, right, and you know, to to help us
out here.

Speaker 2 (18:24):
I never mentioned Smith Roll here either.

Speaker 1 (18:26):
Yeah, I think you're right. I think you're right.

Speaker 3 (18:28):
So well, no, we're done.

Speaker 2 (18:32):
This is not going to turn into a rag on
the Rings of Power show.

Speaker 1 (18:35):
Well again, I just I just want to compare in
contrast where it's appropriate, because we did just watch the
whole first season, and and we're reading this past this
chapter right now, and it and so much of it
is top so much of it is related to what's
in that show.

Speaker 2 (18:47):
So I did find it very interesting though, that it
does say that the rings are tied to, like you said,
to the kind of the the well spring of life
in the elves, right, that they do in a way
keep them from fading.

Speaker 1 (19:04):
Yeah, but yeah, I mean it's it gets back to
that whole you know, you go back to the Waldman letter,
and it's a machine slash magic, right, that Souron somehow
devised a mechanism. And maybe it's not important that we
understand the mechanism necessarily of how he did this, but

(19:27):
I do feel like there's something here that I am
not capable of really addressing, right, You know, but that
there's like maybe an ancient view of the world and
of like, you know, kind of the the alchemist view
of the world, right, a pre modern view of the
way of like harnessing, harnessing natural forces to one's own,

(19:50):
you know, to one's own ends, right, to you know,
even to evil ends. Right, people did that even before
the modern age. Right, we're maybe more efficient at it
in certain ways and better at it, and we've built
crazy technology kind of off the idea of machines and magic.
But Tolkien closely relates those two ideas, and he's talking

(20:13):
about the rings when he talks about Sourn's obsession with
magic in the machine.

Speaker 3 (20:21):
So how can it be though that?

Speaker 2 (20:22):
I mean, it says clearly there that the three remained
unsullied where they were forged by Kelbermbor alone, and the
hand of Sarron never touched them, yet they were also
subject to the one. Like how that that in and
of itself just seems to contradict itself, right, Like, if
they were unsullied and the hand of Sarron had never

(20:43):
touched them, how are they still connected and subject to
the one?

Speaker 1 (20:48):
Well, I think that Sourn, if my understanding is that
surn taught them about the making of the rings, right,
like kind of taught them the the kind of the art,
like the theory behind it maybe, And so maybe in
the in sort it's liking it to, I'll try to

(21:08):
liken it to something new, right all right, So something
like that. Maybe it's easier for us to relate to
these days, especially for me because I do this for
a living. But I think about, like, I build a
lot of websites, right, and I use all of the
technology that goes along with building websit, which is basically code.
Right now, I am not you're I am not a

(21:32):
like mastermind, uh you know, one of these like trail
blazers when it comes to building like websites, right, Like,
I wasn't there for the birth of HTML and JavaScript
and CSS for all the geniuses that thought these things
up in the first place, right, But I've learned a

(21:53):
lot about it along the way, right And I have
a pretty good grasp of how to build a website, right,
built many of them. So you can kind of think
about like the masterminds in that case who like thought
up these things originally, they could probably like I could
probably think, like build a website and be like, Oh,
this thing's super secure. I've got all the right securities

(22:13):
in place. And then these guys can come along and
be like, have no fifteen different ways to actually get
around the security I thinks in place, and there not
many people can do that. But because they understand like
the vulner they truly understand like the vulnerabilities that exist, right,
because they invented the technology. Right, Maybe that's a way

(22:37):
to think about it. Yeah, you know that it's like
the genius that invents the and Saron, I mean, he's
kind of the genius that invented this technology of the
rings of power, right, And he worked with some other
geniuses for sure, and taught them a lot of things,
but he wasn't involved in the actual so he can
be like he taught he maybe he taught them lots
of things, but then they went made these things, and

(22:58):
he's like, excellent, they're doing exactly what I wanted them. Two,
they're using my theory to do it, and now I
can exploit it. Right now, I know I have all
the back doors into these things, right, I know all
the back doors into these things because I created the
technology in the first place. So anyway, it's a really
it's a really fascinating sort of thing to another fascinating
thing to do a deep dive. And again, you know,

(23:20):
who knows how long we'll keep doing the show, and
maybe one of these days we'll get to that point
where we do a deep dive on it, or maybe
I'll you know, put it into a future book I
write or something like that. Explore that. Yeah, okay, yeah,
So let's talk about men. And so we've talked a
little bit about the elves and this actually there's a
little bit about dwarves in here as well, actually a

(23:41):
decent amount about dwarves, and they're involvement in the Rings
of Power. And it's funny. The dwarves are kind of
like Souron. It's not like they try to hide from sourn,
but it's like Suron can't read their minds, so he
has to kind of go about like controlling them in
a different way. But here's what it says about men. Men,
I mean, we kind of we're kind of weak compared
to the dwarves and the elves when it comes to
these the power these rings. So gret you want to
read this passage.

Speaker 2 (24:02):
Men proved easier to ensnare those who used the Nine
Rings became mighty in their day, kings, sorcerers and warriors
of old. They obtained glory and great wealth, yet it
turned to their undoing. They had, as it seemed, unending life,
yet life became unendurable to them. They could walk, if
they would, unseen by all eyes in this world beneath

(24:25):
the sun, and they could see things in worlds invisible
to mortal men. But too often they beheld only the
phantoms and delusions of Sauron, And one by one, sooner
or later, according to their native strength and the end
to the good or evil of their wills. In the beginning,
they fell under the thraldom of the ring that they bore,
and under the domination of the one which was Saurans,

(24:47):
and they became forever invisible save to him that wore
the ruling ring. And they entered into the realm of shadows.
The nause ghoul were they, the ring raiths, the enemy's
most terrible servants. Dark just went with them, and they
cried with the voices of death.

Speaker 1 (25:04):
Yeah, so we see Surron's manipulation of the of of
the Nine Men in this case. You know, it has
to do with the same things in the ways he
manipulated the new Menorians, right, and deceive them this this
promise of of of immortality, right, when when we see
that that's really a bad thing for men. Right, that's
not a good thing for men. Our mortality are not

(25:27):
being bound to this world for the duration of this
world is actually a gift, and when we seek to
circumvent that gift, it actually becomes uh, you know, sort
of a living death. Right, So not a pleasant thing,
not a pleasant thing to think about. And again this
just gives me a little more fodder for what we
were talking about before. You know, it's it's interesting to

(25:51):
think about, like the idea, like all these spiritual ideas
sort of being bound up within these rings as well.
So and we and and you know, let's stop there
for a minute, because we think we talk about spiritual things,
and we we automatically want to go to thinking that
those are just ideas, that that's all they are. They're
just mental conceptions that we have, and that the only

(26:12):
things that really matter are material But that's not the
underlying metaphysic that underlies what Tolkien's thinking about anything.

Speaker 4 (26:23):
Right.

Speaker 1 (26:23):
Tolkien believed in a very real spiritual world and this
can be a little bit jarring when you realize when
you realize this, if you're coming at it, like we
all are as moderns, right, because we we do think
more in material terms, even those of us who who
profess to believe in, you know, a very real spiritual world.
Like we still tend to think of like ideas like

(26:45):
prestige and these sorts of things as being just ideas.
But but you think about Souron and what it says
about him pouring himself into this one ruling ring, right,
and you think about like like Salron is a spirit, right,
he is. He's an embodied spirit, but he his his
bodies don't have His body does not is not actually

(27:09):
a part of him in a in a in like
a final way, right like our bodies are. Right. He
is a pure spirit just like the other mayar, just
like the valor. He puts on different guyses to make
himself appear as he wants to appear, right, just like

(27:30):
we might put on clothes, you know, to appear as
we want to appear. Right. But he's pure spirit, and
so when he puts if he's putting in these ideas
you know of like prestige, you know, immortality, unending life. Uh,
you know, just kind of the things like you know,

(27:52):
think about like the political sorts of ways that people
in political power use their skills to control people, right,
you know, they'll they'll just all again, I can't go
into this, and I feel like I'm kind of bumbling
over myself as I try to explain this. But you

(28:12):
think about all of you think about all the ways
in which politicians they kind of sometimes you just how
does this person stay there? Right? How does this person
stay in power? Right? Like they've been at it so long?
What is it about them? And the more time you
think about it, you're just like they really understand like
how to how to how to just like wield power

(28:33):
and manipulate people, and kind of they see this person
over here and they're like, I can put them against
this person. And there's there's a lot of things that
go on like that. And so it's like Surn puts
all of those skills that he has into this one ring, right,
and those and that one ring has that back door
into all of these other rings of power, right, and

(28:54):
maybe think of it as like rings of powers, right
of all of these powers of control, right of domination right,
and he is, through his one ring, controlling all of
these others. So the mechanism is there, and it's the rings, right,
the ring, the ring and the rings right, and the

(29:19):
will and the spiritual aspect of it is bound up
in there as well. So anyway, I don't know if
any of that is making a bit of sense. It's
starting to make more sense to me as I talk
about it out loud, so maybe one of these days
I'll be able to explain it really well. So stay
tuned and Patreon dot com slash Tolkien Road so you
can give me more time to think about it, all right,
So gotta any more thoughts on this passage, No, I'm.

Speaker 2 (29:43):
Just I'm just kind of stuck kind of on this,
on the whole thing about the ring making people invisible
and being able to walk, you know, to walk unseen
then see things in worlds that are invisible to just

(30:04):
regular men, So it's like they're entering into this spiritual
universe almost, right, Like yeah, And I don't know, I
was just kind of thinking about that and in relation
to our discussion about Sarn being a spirit, so it's
almost like by putting the ring on and becoming invisible,

(30:25):
like they're in their likeness, they're becoming more like him
in the fact that you know, spirits are invisible, right,
so it's like they're losing that kind of connection to
their you know, to their body, to what makes them men,
and they're becoming more in likeness to him, which obviously

(30:49):
would make him more able to kind of mold them.

Speaker 1 (30:53):
Yes, as will Well, that's I mean, see, I think
we're kind of on the same wavelengths. We may just
not realize that that there's something very like very deep
in and and insightful going on with all of this. Yeah,
and and and that's why I'm kind of like and
maybe at some point we just need to like I
don't know, I feel like I know some people that
are like really really like like deep like philosophers and theologians,

(31:19):
and I feel like I need to get them on here,
and we need to like just figure out that figure
this all out, how this all works. But I think,
you know, you think about like the ring Raiths, right,
their race, like they at some point they lose their
bodies completely, but they still exist in the world, right,
They still exist in the world. And it's like sourn
is like through the rings, he's able to pour himself

(31:41):
directly into these people, right, he's until they they still exist,
but their will, their agency is gone, right, Well, they
are utterly direct slaves of his will. Right And and
you see how that kind of relates to what I
was saying before, too, right, you know when I mean,

(32:03):
I'm just so averse on a personal level, I'm so
averse to like giving giving like other people, uh, control
over over me in very in various ways, right and
like in like I I can sense when when something
is happening where somebody is trying to get control over me,

(32:24):
and I see it happen. And I'm not trying to
say sometimes I think I need to be a little
more willing to let people, you know, deal with me.
So but but uh, I see it happened to so
many people where whatever you want to call it, they
sell out. They just give themselves over, They give themselves

(32:44):
over to being manipulated by somebody who's more powerful than them.
And there's a but there's a trade off, and they
perceive that there's a good trade off for them, right,
But in the end, they end up getting thrown under
the bus, right, They they end up getting thrown under
the Bus. A great I mean a great, A great
TV show that explores this whole concept is The House
of Cards, right, I mean that that show was so

(33:05):
good at like showing how all of this, you know, manipulation,
manipulation works, and how people lose themselves and they're being
when they're being kind of influenced and promised things by
these more powerful people, right, who are just using them
to get more power. Right. So at the end of
the day, it's it's rings of powers, rings of power, right,

(33:28):
ultimately the idea of the capital P power, right, just
overall domination, which was the more goth thing in the
very beginning, but then it's like, but they're also rings
of powers, Like they give different powers and those are
the things that are promised. But in the end, it's
about the overall capital P power, the domination, right, and
that's what Saluron is trying to achieve in all of

(33:48):
these things. I'm going to promise you powers, yeah, right,
to preserve things, to do the things that you'd like
to do. Overall, I am going to be controlling you
exactly exactly.

Speaker 2 (34:02):
Yeah, It's it's a total mind game, right, It's like
I will give you these powers but they are going
to be subject to my power. Right, which goes back
to what we were talking about. Why he refused to
go before the Valor in the first place, right, is
because that's what he wanted. He wanted that domination, and
making himself subject to the Valor and to their sentencing

(34:26):
would take that away from him.

Speaker 1 (34:28):
Yeah. Yeah, think about these bad boys, right, I mean,
like it's a perfect example, right, So much we can
do with those with these devices, right, A.

Speaker 4 (34:42):
Lot of good too with our phones, a lot of
good things. Yeah, yeah, well a lot of good things.
But the longer we go, the more we realize, oh
my gosh, it's opening me up to so many bad things,
and like to surveillance, right, Like literally, if somebody wants
to know where I am, there's a way to know
where I am at any given time. Right.

Speaker 1 (35:04):
Nobody in history has ever had to live with that
until these things came along. Right, It's that's what we're
talking I mean, that is a that is the magic
machine thing. That's the magic machine aspect of this. Right,
you get some powers, but you're giving up other powers.

(35:24):
And so now you think about what is Tom Bombadil
all about? Now you're starting to see you think about
Tom Bombadil, what's he all about. He's utterly free, right,
living in the woods by himself with goldberry, right in
the little house in the old forest. And he's not
subject to manipulation because he's spiritually free. Right, He's spiritually free. Okay, Well,

(35:46):
this is a really fascinating discussion the morning into it.
But we're going to move along because this is we're
trying to get through this whole chapter here, all right,
So wars lead to the fall of numen Or, Arnaer
and Gondor are established, and Sauron returns to Mordor, which
leads to the Last Alliance of men and elves. So
another several paragraph passage here will go back and forth Greta.

(36:08):
All right, Now, Elindale and Gilgalad took council together, for
they perceived that Sauron would grow too strong and would
overcome all his enemies one by one if they did
not unite against him. Therefore they made that league, which
is called the Last Alliance. And they marched east into
Middle Earth, gathering a great host of elves and men,
and they halted for a while at Imladris. It is

(36:29):
said that the host that was there assembled was fairer
and more splendid in arms than any that has since
been in Middle Earth, and none greater has been mustered
since the host of the Valor went against Thanglorodrm.

Speaker 2 (36:40):
From Imaldus, they crossed the misty mountains by many passes,
and marched down the river Onduin, and so came out
last upon the host of Sauron on dagor Lad, the
battle plain which lies before the gate of the Black Land.
All living things were divided in that day, and some
of every kind, even of beasts and birds, were found

(37:00):
in either hosts, save the elves. Only they alone were undivided,
and followed Gilgalad of the dwarfs. Few fought upon either side,
but the kindred of Dorian of Moria fought against Saarm.

Speaker 1 (37:13):
The host of Gilgalad, and Elendil had the victory. For
the might of the elves was still great in those days,
and the Newmonorians were strong and tall and terrible in
their wrath. Against Aeglos the sphere of Gilgalad, none could stand.
I'm sorry this should be. Against Aglos the sphere of Gilgalad,
none could stand. And the sword of Elindale filled Orcs
and men with fear, for it shone with the light

(37:33):
of the sun and of the moon, and it was
named Narcil.

Speaker 2 (37:36):
Then Gilgalad and Ellendil passed into Mordor and encompassed the
stronghold of Saarum, and they laid siege to it for
seven years and suffered grievous loss by fire and by
the darts and bolts of the enemy, And Sauron sent
many sordies against them.

Speaker 3 (37:51):
There in the.

Speaker 2 (37:52):
Valley of Gorgoroth Anarion, son of Elindil, was slain, and
many others. But at the last this was so straight
that Saron himself came forth, and he wrestled with Gilgalad
and Ellendil Ellendil, and they both were slain, and the
sword of Ellendil broke under him as he fell, But

(38:13):
Sarn also was thrown down, and with the hilt shard
of Narcial Eieseldor cut the ruling ring from the hand
of Saron and took it for his own. Then Saron
was for that time vanquished, and he forsook his body,
and his spirit fled far away and hid in waste places,
and he took no visible shape again for many long years.

Speaker 1 (38:32):
Yeah, so this ends the second age, Salaran is vanquished
at the last alliance of men and elves, and and
so seems like a happy ending quickly, not so much
a happy ending thereafter, but at least Salon for this time,
for the time being and for a long time, is disembodied,

(38:53):
and he is kind of the spirit that dwells in
waste places and doesn't seem to have a lot of
influence over the events of Middler for a while. Of course,
we all we all kind of know from reading Lord
of the Rings the story of is Sildor's folly. He
wants to hold on to the one ring as where

(39:14):
guild because obviously Salon killed his father and uh and
his brother and he is you know, and also he's
like and he also destroyed my home right newman or,
right in the home of so many others. So you know,
I was and I was thinking about this. I was like,

(39:35):
I was like, what what is why did he want
to do that? And and like why he has it
because it seems like if I if remember recalled Ank,
it is I think it is canonical that you know,
uh l Rond is urging him to throw the ring
into Mount Doom right to undo to undo the ring,

(39:56):
right to destroy the one ring? And yeah it does right, So, uh,
sometimes I just have to check myself in my like,
am I just remembering that from Peter Jackson's movie? Or
is that actually in the book? All right? So I
thought it was in the book. So elronicicured on. They
try to urge him to destroy the one ring, and
he refuses to do so. And and his justification is,

(40:16):
you know, is what I just laid out, and he
wants to keep this is where guild and to become
an heirloom.

Speaker 3 (40:21):
You need to find that word for me.

Speaker 2 (40:22):
Where guild.

Speaker 1 (40:23):
Well, let's let's look it up here.

Speaker 2 (40:25):
Where guild this I will have as where guild for
my father's death and my brother's.

Speaker 1 (40:32):
The amount of compensation paid by a person committing an
offense to the injured party or in case of death,
to his family. Yeah, so it's like, here's compensation. You know,
it's compensation for his uh father and his brother's deaths. Right, Okay, Yeah,
I don't know that to me as I was listening

(40:52):
to it this time, you know, Uh, while I was
mowing the grass, I started thinking about that. I had
some good thoughts. Unfortunately, I can't recall him right now,
and I feel like I've already stumbled over myself enough
in this episode. But I feel like there is something
really interesting on a spiritual level there as well that
goes just beyond the idea that the ring is manipulating
a sealed door. Obviously there's you know, some aspect of
it doing that, but this idea again, Tolkien operates in

(41:15):
some and a lot of ancient concepts that don't necessarily
make as much sense to us on a modern level immediately,
and so it's worth spending time understanding those in a
lot of cases. But his justification at least is that
he's going to keep it because it's where Guild. It's
kind of an heirloom. It can be passed down as
a reminder of the sacrifice of Ellendel and of an

(41:40):
Arian right and honor them in that way, right, you know,
keep their memory alive.

Speaker 2 (41:47):
Yeah, I think maybe some of the some like the
crux of it here is it's interesting or like you
see the progression of his thought where it's like where Guild, right,
it's like a memorial to the people, the loved one
he lost. But then that very next second sentences was
it not I that dealt the enemy his death blow.

(42:09):
Like you know, you can just see that whole idea
of pride like kind of starting to kind of eat
away at him there, like I'm the one that killed him,
Like I'm entitled to this, right, So not only is
it a memorial of his father and brother's death, but
it's like it's like a trophy for him in a way, right,

(42:30):
And and I think that that's all. That's all it
really needs to really start doing its work.

Speaker 1 (42:36):
Yeah, it's interesting because I was thinking about it, like
this concept of wear guild as being like financial compensation
for the death. And we all get that, right if
somebody if like you know, if if you're you know, brother, parent, whatever,
is killed in a in a car accident for somebody

(42:57):
who's reckless, recklessly driving, you get the you get the
idea of, uh, you know, financial compensation for that, right,
I mean, you know there's on a number of levels, right,
and the damages of that. Now, you can never actually
put a dollar price on any human life, right, so
there's it's not really possible, but but at the very
least it's supposed to kind of be some compensation, you know,

(43:21):
maybe to help with some of the expenses associated with
burying that person, hospital bills, whatever, and then just the
emotional damages, the loss of income maybe if a person
was helping with Like, there's just so many levels on
which you can argue for this being a good thing,
but those are all very like practical levels to help
you kind of get back on your feet and move on.

(43:41):
This is for a sill door. It's like a it's
a trophy, right, it's a it becomes more of a
of a family family pride kind of thing. And and again,
you know, it's like I can see l Rond and
and keered on trying to plead with him and being like,
the best thing you can do to honor the memory
of your father and your brother is destroy the ring,

(44:03):
because that will destroy sourn once and for all. Right,
But yeah, there's something that's calling to his cyll door
and it's and it and it's finally ends that was
it not I that dwelt the enemy his death blow? Right?
I did this right? So it's a pride thing. It's
not actually even about his brother, his brother and his father.
It's about a pride thing. That's what I just said. No, interesting,

(44:25):
I'm just echoing it. I'm not taking away any credit
from you.

Speaker 2 (44:27):
No, No, I think it's I mean, clearly it's the
it's just that's.

Speaker 1 (44:33):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (44:33):
You can just see his slow descent into you know,
and like letting that pride take control. And then he starts,
you know, he said, well, it's also exceedingly fair to
look on.

Speaker 3 (44:45):
Right, He's like, oh, it would.

Speaker 2 (44:46):
Be a shame to to get rid of this.

Speaker 3 (44:49):
It's beautiful, you know.

Speaker 2 (44:50):
So it's just starting to kind of eat away.

Speaker 1 (44:53):
Yeah, it's magic. He's finding all the reasons not to
destroy it, not to destroy it, all right. So the
fates of Arnor and Gondor, right, So Arnoor and Gondor
they're established here kind of concurrently with the last alliance
of men and elves, and Arnor being the northern kingdom.
Arnore is where in the Third Age, it's kind of

(45:14):
like it's the ancient kingdom in the ancient realm where
the shire is actually located, right, and it grows up.
The shire kind of springs out of the remnants of
this northern kingdom of Arnor, right, and it's actually the
kingdom that where the main seat of the of the
of Atergorn ends up being right in later times, right

(45:36):
in Arnor. But we have Arnor and northern Kingdom and
Gondor in their southern kingdom. Now they're not divided kingdoms.
They are one kingdom, but they're just two different It's
a large area, so it's just two different realms, right,
but not politically divided. So let's read a little bit
about their fates as the Third Age progresses. Valendil took

(45:57):
up his abode in a Numinas, but his folk, and
so Valandiel is the son is the only surviving son
of Isildur. Valandil took up his abode in Anumenas, but
his folk were diminished. And of the new Manorians and
of the men of Eriador, there remained now too few
to people the land, or to maintain all the places
that Elindale had built, and Dagor Laud and a Mordor,
and upon the gladden fields, many had fallen. And it

(46:19):
came to pass after the days of Ehrendur, the seventh
king that followed Valendil, that the men of Westerness, the
Dunadine of the north, became divided into petty realms and lordships,
and their foes devoured them one by one. Ever, they
dwindled with the years, until their glory passed, leaving only
green mounds in the grass. At length, not was left
to them but a strange people wandering secretly in the wild,

(46:40):
and other men knew not their homes nor the purpose
of their journeys. And save in Imladris in the house
of Elrod, their ancestry was forgotten. Yet the shards of
the sword were cherished during many lives of men by
the heirs of Isildur, and their line from father to
son remained unbroken.

Speaker 2 (46:56):
In the south, the realm of Gondor endured, and for
a time its splendor grew, until it recalled the wealth
and majesty of Nu minor Ere. It fell high towers,
the people of Gondor built in strong places and havens
of many ships, and the winged crown of the kings
of Men was held in awe by people of many
lands and tongues. For many a year. The white tree

(47:16):
grew before the King's house and minas honor. The seed
of that tree, which ethel door, brought out of the
deeps of the sea from New Minor, and the seed
before that came from Avellane, before that from Vallenor in
the day before days, when the world was young.

Speaker 1 (47:32):
So Arnor over the course of the Third Age really
dissolves from being anything. And it's really by the time
we get to Lord of the Rings that no longer
really exists as anything. Gondor, of course, does still exist,
but at some point it loses even it's kind of
the royal house, right because of and that's why we

(47:53):
have the stewards of Gondor as the ones who were
ruling in the place of the actual king. It is
interesting because we put so much emphasis on Gondor, but
it's interesting to know that Arnor was really like of
the same level, or even of a greater level. Right.
Arnore was the seat of Elyndale when he was still alive, right,
And it's in the northern kingdom. Gondor is more of

(48:15):
like the frontier kingdom, uh there to you know, hold
off hold off mortor, hold off Salon there.

Speaker 2 (48:23):
How much of that do you think has to do
with the fact that Gondor had the White Tree and
and Arnor did not.

Speaker 1 (48:30):
Really interesting thought, I don't know, it's.

Speaker 2 (48:33):
Occurred to me because that's a great point. Well, you
know why the success of one and not the other.
And that's really kind of a big thing.

Speaker 1 (48:42):
They had and that you know, well, and I was
thinking too, it's really interesting that. So I think that's
an interesting note. And to go along with it, Gondor
is the one that's closest to all of these enemies, right,
And Gondor is right there next to Mordor, right, And
it's it's right on the frontier of all these southern

(49:04):
peoples that supposedly hate hate Gondor and hate Arnor. Right,
But somehow it holds together over all this time, right,
you know, it's it's seen better days by the time
we get to Lord of the Rings, but it's still
holding together, whereas Arnor just dissolves into a bunch of like, right,
petty petty fiefdoms exactly.

Speaker 2 (49:22):
Yeah, it says petty. They became divided into petty realms
and lordships. And it just made me think about, you
know what we've talked about before, about how that tree
was kind of a memorial of their ancestry, like where
they came from. It harkened back to Vallenor, right, yeah,
and their relationship with the elves, and there is a
kinship there, there was a camaraderie.

Speaker 3 (49:43):
So even just having that symbol.

Speaker 2 (49:44):
There as a daily reminder of where you come from,
I think probably goes a long way to establishing the
success of a kingdom.

Speaker 1 (49:52):
Well, And that's what I was getting at, is that
I think the the constant pressure they were under from
these from Mordor and from the south also lent itself
to keeping that camaraderie in place, right, because it's always
like it's gond Or against Gondor against the world, right exactly.
And it's like we're the we're the realm of the
white Tree, even if we're not entirely sure what the
white tree is all about anymore. Yeah, right, we're still

(50:14):
the realm of the White Tree, right, And we know
that's again, and we know that's a good thing. We
know about the ancient deeds of many of our ancestors,
and we got to hold together because we don't have
any choice, right, you know, we we can't dissolve into
all these little petty, uh you know, petty lordships because
we're constantly under attack from.

Speaker 3 (50:32):
Outside and they have a common enemy.

Speaker 1 (50:34):
Yeah yeah, yeah, good stuff. All right. Meanwhile, el Rond,
all right, so let's catch up with l Rond in
the Third Age and all the days of the Third Age,
after the fall of Gilgalad, Master l Ronde abode in Imlaarris,
and he gathered there many elves and other folk of
wisdom and power from among all the kindreds of Middle Earth.
And he preserved through many lives of men the memory

(50:56):
of all that had been fair. And the house of
l Rond was a refuge for the weary and the pressed,
and a treasury of good counsel and wise lore. In
that house were harbored the heirs of a Sildor in
childhood and old age, because the king the kinship of
their blood with el Rond himself, because of the kinship
of their blood with Elrond himself, and because he knew
in his wisdom that one should come of their line,

(51:16):
to whom a great part was appointed in the last
deeds of that age, And until that time came, the
shards of Alendeal's sword were given into the keeping of Elrond.
When the days of the Dunodyne darkened and they became
a wandering people.

Speaker 2 (51:30):
So.

Speaker 1 (51:32):
L Rond is, you know. That's that's how Aragorn really
comes to become associated. Early on in Lord of the Rings.
Why he's associated with Rivendell, and he's kind of inhabiting
this northern realm so far away from Gondor when supposedly
he's the heir of Gondor. Right, he was, and he

(51:54):
was part of this line of the true errors to
the throne of is Sildor, right who. Uh, We're taken
in by l Ron and kind of raised within his house,
and so that's the that's the story on that.

Speaker 2 (52:09):
When I was reading this, I began thinking, I was like,
I want my house to be like Elron's house where
talked about like a refuge for the weary and the oppressed,
the treasury of good counsel and wise lore. I was like, Oh,
that's just that's something to aspire to.

Speaker 1 (52:23):
Yeah, right, I mean, well, it sounds like, you know,
it sounds like a monastery, right, you know, like kind
of peaceful, peaceful place in the middle of nowhere, beautiful,
sort of natural, peaceful place in harmony with the natural
world around it. Right, sounds like a pretty nice place
to be for sure.

Speaker 3 (52:41):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (52:41):
Yeah, could you use one of.

Speaker 2 (52:43):
Those preserved from all that craziness that's happening, you know
outside of it?

Speaker 1 (52:47):
Yeah, it just sounds like the world's greatest retreat house.

Speaker 3 (52:50):
You know, it really does, for sure, all right.

Speaker 1 (52:53):
So a little bit more about the fates of the rings.

Speaker 2 (52:56):
You read this passage, and so indeed it has since befallen.
The One, and the Seven and the nine are destroyed,
and the three have passed away, and with them the
third Age is ended, and the tails of the Eldar
and Middle Earth draw to their clothes.

Speaker 3 (53:10):
Those were the.

Speaker 2 (53:11):
Fading years, and in them the last flowering of the
elves east of the sea came to its winter. In
that time, the Noldor walked still in the hither lands,
mightiest and fair. So the children of the world and
their tongues were still heard by mortal ears. Many things
of beauty and wander remained on Earth in that time,
and many things also of evil and dread orcs there

(53:31):
were in trolls and dragons, and fell beasts, and strange
creatures old and wise in the woods whose name are
whose names are forgotten. Dwarfs still labored in the hills
and wrought with patient craft works of metal and stone
that none now can rival. But the dominion of men
was preparing, and all things were changing, until at last
the Dark Lord arose in Workwood again.

Speaker 1 (53:54):
So we kind of, uh, you know, fast forward to
the end of the Age. Here there's still there's still
you know, some some topics to cover, but we we
find out the fates of the Rings when the One
Ring is eventually destroyed at the end of the Third Age,
the Seven and the Nine are also destroyed as well.
In the three pass away over you know, over the
seas and and and what. What really all of this,

(54:19):
all of this history of Middle Earth is leading up
to after the Third Age is the dominion of men,
right It's you can almost think of this as like, uh,
you know, the stories of Middle Earth is like the
prehistory of civilization before really men come into their own right.
Every the elves are passing away. The elves are passing away,

(54:41):
dwindling from this world, and you know, and their their
physical presence in this world, right though, they still have connection.
And it's interesting to think about like sort of the
the idea of uh, you know, Tolkien associating there with
like you know, fairies and just kind of like these
like you know, femeral spirits in our own time that

(55:03):
they've just kind of you know, they're still tied to
the world. But they're kind of they're kind of dimmed,
and they're no longer very corporeal, right, They're just all
they can do is fade and continue to fade, right,
And their power is not nearly what it was, you know,
many thousands of years ago. So okay, a little bit

(55:23):
on wizards and mithrounder and the likeness of men. They
appeared old, bit vigorous, and they changed little with the
years and aged, but slowly though great cares lay on them.
Great wisdom they had, and many powers of mind and hand.
Long they journeyed far and wide among elves and men,
and held converse also with beasts and with birds. And
the peoples of Middle Earth gave to them many names.

(55:44):
For their true names they did not reveal. Chief among
them were those whom the elves called Mithrondir and Kurnir,
but men in the north named Gandalf and Saramon. Of these,
Kurunir was the eldest and came first, and after him
came Mithrondir and Radagast, and others of the Ystari who
went into the east of Middle Earth and do not
come into these tales. Radagast was the friend of all

(56:04):
beasts and birds. But Kournier went most among men, and
he was subtle in speech and skilled in all the
devices of smithcraft. Myth Rondeider was closest in council with
al Rod and the Elves. He wandered far in the
north and west, and made never in any land any
lasting abode. But Kournier journeyed into the east, and when
he returned he dwelt at Orthank and the Ring of Eingarde,

(56:26):
which the Newminorians made in the days of their power.

Speaker 2 (56:29):
Ever, most vigilant was myth Rondir, and he it was
that most doubted the darkness and mirkwood, for though many
deemed that it was wrought by the ring Raiths, he
feared that it was indeed the first shadow of Sauran returning.
And he went to Dougaldore, and the Sorcerer fled from him,
and there was a watchful peace for a long while.
But at length the shadow return and its power increased,

(56:52):
And in that time was first made the Council of
the Wise, that is called the White Council. And therein
were Elrond and Galadriel, and Kirden and other lords of
the Elder, and with them were mith Thronder and Kurunir
and Kurner. That was Sarmon the White was chosen to
be their chief, for he had most studied the devices
of Sorrown of old Galadriel indeed had wished that myth

(57:14):
Throndire should be the head of the council. And Saramon
begrudged them, begrudged them that, for his pride and desire
of mastery was grown great. But myth Throndier refused the office,
since he would have no ties and no allegiance save
to those who sent him, and he would abide in
no place nor be subject to any summons. But Saramon

(57:34):
now began to study the lore of the Rings of Power,
their making, and their history.

Speaker 1 (57:39):
Yeah, so this gives us a little bit of just
some of the background on the wizards and their rules
and and and again this is you know, this is
history that that we just read about here is actually
history that very that predates the Hobbed and Lord of
the Rings by several centuries. Right, So there's a lot
of history to go before all of this, and we

(58:00):
that Sauron is really he's already operating and returning, you know,
working to operate, and you know, much earlier in the
third Age than what we get in the Hobbit and
the Lord of the Rings. Okay, I like to call
this section the Lord of the Rings and four paragraphs,
So uh yeah, we'll go with this one. But those

(58:23):
who saw the things that were done in that time
deeds of valor and wonder, have elsewhere told the tale
of the War of the Ring, and how it ended,
both in victory and looked for, and in sorrow long
and long foreseen. Here let it be said that in
those days the air of a seal door arose in
the north, and he took the shords, the shards of
the Sword of Elndil, and in Imladris they were reforged,
and he went then to war a great captain of men.

(58:45):
He was Autigorne's son of Odathorne, the nine and thirtieth,
heir to the right line from a seal door, and
yet more like to Elindal than any before him. Battle
there was in Rohan and Kuranir the trader was thrown down,
and eis guarded broken, And before the city of God
a great field was fought, and the Lord of Morgul,
captain of Sauron. There passed into darkness, and the air

(59:07):
of Isildor led the host of the west to the
black gates of Mortardor.

Speaker 2 (59:11):
In that last battle were Mithrondir and the sons of Elrond,
and the King and the King of Rohan, and lords
of Gondor, and the Heir of Isildur, with the Dunidine
of the north. There at the last they looked upon
death and defeat, and all their valor was in vain,
for Sauron was too strong. Yet in that hour was
put to the proof that which Methrondiir had spoken, and

(59:33):
help came from the hands of the week when the
wise faltered. For as many songs have since sung, it
was the peri, the little people, dwellers in hillsides and meadows,
that brought them deliverance.

Speaker 1 (59:47):
For Frodo the Hafling, it is said, at the bidding
of Methrondir took on himself the burden, and alone with
his servant, he passed through peril and darkness, and came
at last in Saurn's despite even to Mount Doom, and
there into the fire where it was row he cast
the great ring of power, and so at last it
was unmade and it's evil consumed.

Speaker 2 (01:00:04):
Then Sauron failed and he was utterly vanquished and passed
away like a shadow of malice. And the towers of
Baradur crumbled and ruined, and at the rumor of their fall,
many lands trembled. Thus peace came again, and a new
spring opened on earth, and the air of eel Door
was crowned king of Gondor and Arnor, and the might
of the Dunadine was lifted up in their glory renewed

(01:00:26):
in the courts of Minas Honor. The White tree flowered again,
for a steed lean was found by Mithran Deer in
the snows of.

Speaker 1 (01:00:36):
Mendo Luin that.

Speaker 2 (01:00:38):
Rose tall and white above the city of Gondor. And
while it still grew there, the elder days were not
wholly forgotten in the hearts of the kings.

Speaker 1 (01:00:46):
Yeah, so right there, Lord of the Rings, four paragraphs.
My biggest grip, my biggest s gripe is that Sam
gets Sam gets no love. He just called the servant
of Frodo.

Speaker 3 (01:00:57):
So yeah, I thought that was a little low.

Speaker 1 (01:00:59):
Yeah. They could have at least said in his servant
Sam Sam wise right.

Speaker 2 (01:01:03):
Or Sam the what is he called Sam the stout hearted.

Speaker 1 (01:01:08):
Yeah, it makes me wonder, you know, because often Tolkien
would have an explanation for like where, like on a
legendarium level, where certain accounts came from. So it makes
me wonder, like who is responsible for this account? And
maybe maybe we find out it was Sam. Maybe Sam
wrote that particular account and that's why he didn't put
himself in there.

Speaker 2 (01:01:26):
That seems very fitting, it seems Sam's character.

Speaker 1 (01:01:30):
That's just speculation. If anybody knows if Tolkien ever spoke
about that directly, that would be interesting. But we know
that that Sam kept the Red Book of West March
after after Frodo, so it's possible, Yeah, that that Sam edited,
you know, or wrote wrote this final account and uh,

(01:01:53):
and he was he was content with just being anonymous
as the servant of Frodo, so which seems very fitting
for Sam. This thing's very fitting for Sam wise. Yeah,
so uh, and then we find out the end of
the Eldar, so that you know, the end of the
Third Age is really the is really the beginning of
the dominion of men, but it's also the end of

(01:02:13):
the Eldar really having a major significance in our world, right,
gott do you want to read this.

Speaker 2 (01:02:21):
But when all these things were done, and the Air
of Eildor had taken up the lordship of men, and
the dominion of the West had passed to him, then
it was made plain that the power of the Three
Rings also was ended, and to the first born the
world grew old and gray. In that time, the last
of the Gnoldor set sail from the havens and left
Middle Earth forever, and latest of all the keepers of

(01:02:42):
the Three Rings rowed to the sea, and Master el
Ron took there the ship that Kiredon had made ready,
and the Twilight of Autumn sailed out to Mithland, until
the seas of the bent world fell away beneath it,
and the winds of the round sky troubled it no more,
and borne upon the high airs above the mists of
the world, passed into the ancient West, and an end

(01:03:05):
was come for the Elder of story.

Speaker 3 (01:03:07):
End of song.

Speaker 1 (01:03:09):
Yeah, so that is a rap on the Selmarllion. So yeah,
you know, the elves they pass out of this world
right and in this case, and and that you know
that we know that there are elves that remain behind.
But I think you know this is really speaking to
a lot of those more significant elves of the elves

(01:03:30):
that remain behind, you know, I think those are the
ones that maybe you know, Tolkien would have speculated like
that kind of become these like you know, they just
continue to fade until they're almost like nothing to us, right,
And you know that's kind of associated with the whole
idea of like, you know, going into a forest and
like just having a sense of like things around you
and sort of you know, and that kind of thing,
and like, oh maybe they're fairies, right, you know, like

(01:03:52):
kind of the the lore of ancient or of Old
England and that kind of thing. But anyway, the you know,
it's kind of interesting mental image to think about, like,
you know, the ships that they're there as they're passing
away from the Great Havens, they're kind of going up.
At a certain point, they kind of take off from
the seas and go up into the air, right, And

(01:04:14):
that's how they arrive at a valan Or in this time,
because valen Or is no longer a part of our world, right.
It's kind of after the end of the Second Age
is broken away and the road is bent, as they say, right,
there is no straight road to the Blessed.

Speaker 2 (01:04:28):
Realm, so what was it that caused like the power
of the three rings to end.

Speaker 1 (01:04:36):
I think it was because the power of the of
the one ring. So maybe and again this gets in
I was.

Speaker 2 (01:04:41):
Gonna say, it kind of harkens back to our whole
discussion of like the metaphysical properties and power of the
one ring.

Speaker 1 (01:04:47):
And maybe the way we should think about the ring
is like the one ring is that it's kind of
like the overall it's like the embodiment of all of
the of the mechanism itself. So maybe, like the ring,
you kind of think about the you know, the phone,
like you know, this is one of the one of
the rings of power, right, But the one ring is
like the Internet. Right, Anyway, once upon a time the

(01:05:10):
Internet did not exist and it came to be, right,
and so it's this it's this whole ecosystem that involves
all of these things, right, And if the Internet were
to break, like that's the idea is that this this
thing would would pretty much be useless at that point, Right,
if this whole world wide Web were to just no

(01:05:33):
longer work for whatever reason, right, that thing would be
useless at that point. It would no longer have the
functionality that that makes it something that you want to
keep with you all the time. So that's that's how
i'd explain it. That's how i'd explain it. Yeah. But
but again, like you can't just think about it. It's
like technology on the level that we tend to think

(01:05:55):
about technology. There there is a there's a deeper spiritual
element going on here. Honestly, with these things, there's a
deeper spiritual element going on too. It's like Tolkien would
definitely say that, I have no doubt in his mind.
He would say, like this, this thing has has spiritual
qualities to it. Right, you put something of yourself into

(01:06:20):
this as you interface with it. Right, these you have
power over things because of that, You have efficiencies over
things because of that. Right, those are spiritual qualities. So anyway,
like it's not to say like this represents this. It's
to say, like Tolkien's writing a story that seems very

(01:06:40):
different from our own world, but it actually the ideas
are still the same and they're very applicable in our
own world. So Okay, well, good discussion, really good discussion
to Yeah, I hope you all enjoyed it as well.
So hey, now that we're done with so million what's next,

(01:07:00):
So just just kind of give you an idea of where.
You know, we got a couple more episodes left in
twenty twenty two. We need to do some mail bag.
We haven't done a mail bag episode in a while,
and you know, we probably need to do at least two,
one maybe on the Rings of Power reactions and one
on the selmrillion. You know, thank you for everybody it rights,

(01:07:21):
and there's been so many people who are written in.
We just you know, been very busy and it's not
always possible to respond to everybody. The quickest way to
get a response is usually via YouTube, but even then
I'm like pretty behind on a lot of those. So
we're gonna do a mail bag probably focused specifically, you know,
especially on some of the longer notes we've gotten from
folks and uh and expect those in the coming weeks.

(01:07:46):
I plan to get to authro Beth Fenrada Andreth this
year and do a discussion of that one, because that
is actually the one, the one work of Tolkiens that
maybe should have been included in the Silm Million, and
he may have wanted included in the sil Marine, but
not gett included here. So I kind of feel like
it's fitting to go ahead and do that one in
the same year we did the Selm Million. Also want

(01:08:07):
to do a non Middle ear story, so maybe Farmer
Giles of ham Smith of wooton Major Roverandom one of
those one of these stories that we haven't actually discussed
on the podcast before, hopefully an interview or two. I've
got some folks that have been meaning to interview for
a while and and some things fell through earlier in
the year, and so I want to get back to those,

(01:08:29):
and you know, maybe we'll get some of those out
as well this year, and then we'll also do an announcement,
you know, about our plans for twenty twenty three, and
you know, just share with you kind of the exciting
things that we've got planned coming up there. So very
excited about that, you know, we do. I have a
pretty clear idea what we're gonna be doing in twenty
twenty three, so stay tuned for more about that. And

(01:08:52):
you know, I am working on some new potential books.
Two books actually, as far as things Tolkien, so next
after Coming Next after Tolkiens Reckquaim and Tolkien's over Tour.
Early stages of those two things, but hope to make
a lot of progress on them in twenty twenty three,
and who knows, maybe even get one of them out
towards the end of the year.

Speaker 3 (01:09:10):
So that's awesome.

Speaker 1 (01:09:12):
Yeah, yeah, so a lot more to come, a lot
more to come, all right, Greta, shall we do haiku?

Speaker 3 (01:09:18):
Let's do it?

Speaker 1 (01:09:18):
All right? Rock paper scissors? Shoot, you can go first,
today's tragedies, Tomorrow's victories ages as shadows.

Speaker 2 (01:09:33):
Mm.

Speaker 1 (01:09:34):
I think my second line actually was only six syllables.
It is you cheated, Tomorrow's victories is victories. There you go.

Speaker 3 (01:09:45):
That's good, you think that.

Speaker 2 (01:09:46):
I like the literation in the first line.

Speaker 3 (01:09:49):
All right, here's mine.

Speaker 2 (01:09:51):
Of story and song and end hands of the week?
Help when the whyse falter?

Speaker 1 (01:09:58):
Nice? Nice, good stuff.

Speaker 2 (01:10:01):
Yeah, gosh, I can't believe it's over for the second time.

Speaker 1 (01:10:06):
I know, I know, done the Silmarillion.

Speaker 3 (01:10:07):
It's crazy sauce.

Speaker 1 (01:10:08):
Well, probably won't be doing it again until at least
twenty twenty seven, so you know, five years since we
finished it last. We did it, you know, did it
in one year this time. But honestly, I don't know,
who knows if we'll ever come back to it on
this on this podcast. I mean many other well there's
so many other things. And if we're going to reread anything,
I mean it's like I'd want to go back and
reread Lord of the Rings, which would probably take us

(01:10:30):
like three years because I would want to do it
like way deeper than we did it last time. And
who knows, But who knows. We got a lot more,
you know, the road goes ever on, right, so lots more,
lots more to come that we haven't even touched yet
in terms of Tolkien's works. Looking forward to all that
for sure. All Right, Well, thanks everybody, thanks for going

(01:10:53):
with us on this journey this year.

Speaker 3 (01:10:54):
Thank you.

Speaker 1 (01:10:55):
Thank you to our amazing patrons, especially the following. John R.

Speaker 2 (01:10:58):
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Speaker 3 (01:11:09):
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Speaker 1 (01:11:12):
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Speaker 1 (01:11:22):
John W.

Speaker 3 (01:11:23):
And Eugene D.

Speaker 1 (01:11:25):
As well as those celebrating their patron anniversary in November
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Speaker 3 (01:11:29):
And Matthew F.

Speaker 1 (01:11:31):
Thank you all so much for your support. Thank you
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everybody for listening. We'll talk at you next time. Bye y'all,
Bye bye,