September 22, 2025 • 26 mins
In this episode, we’ll be exploring the “Foundation of the Grey Havens and of Lindon” in Year 1 of the Second Age. Topics include the overthrow of Morgoth, Thranduil (father of Legolas), Gil-galad, Galadriel, Celeborn, Elrond, and Elros. Join us!
If you’ve ever been curious about the rise and tragic downfall of Tolkien’s greatest kingdom — and how it ties into the Rings of Power and the epic drama of the Second Age — you won’t want to miss this.
And here’s the really exciting part: I’ve got a brand-new book on the way, Tolkien’s Tragedy: Concerning Númenor, The Rings of Power, and the Second Age. It’s the culmination of years of study, and I believe it’ll change the way you look at Tolkien’s legendarium.
If you’re enjoying this series, make sure you head over to tolkienroad.substack.com and subscribe.
Read Tolkien's Tragedy: https://tolkienroad.substack.com/
That’s where you’ll get early chapters of Tolkien’s Tragedy and all the behind-the-scenes insights I only share with my readers.
Episode Link: https://www.tolkienroad.com/e0328/
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Video of this episode: https://youtu.be/ihNUr7WQokY
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Buy Tolkien Road merch @ True Myths Press
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If you’ve ever been curious about the rise and tragic downfall of Tolkien’s greatest kingdom — and how it ties into the Rings of Power and the epic drama of the Second Age — you won’t want to miss this.
And here’s the really exciting part: I’ve got a brand-new book on the way, Tolkien’s Tragedy: Concerning Númenor, The Rings of Power, and the Second Age. It’s the culmination of years of study, and I believe it’ll change the way you look at Tolkien’s legendarium.
If you’re enjoying this series, make sure you head over to tolkienroad.substack.com and subscribe.
Read Tolkien's Tragedy: https://tolkienroad.substack.com/
That’s where you’ll get early chapters of Tolkien’s Tragedy and all the behind-the-scenes insights I only share with my readers.
Episode Link: https://www.tolkienroad.com/e0328/
To support our work here, please visit Patreon.com/TolkienRoad.
OTHER LINKS:
Video of this episode: https://youtu.be/ihNUr7WQokY
Watch AD-FREE: https://www.patreon.com/posts/139352101
Listen AD-FREE: https://www.patreon.com/posts/79198589/
Buy Tolkien Road merch @ True Myths Press
Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/the-tolkien-road--5222755/support.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hey there, fellow travelers, Welcome to the Tolkien Road. In
this episode, we continue our journey through the fall of
Numenor with the foundation of the Gray Havens and of Leandon,
which concerns the major events that kick off the Second
Age of Middle Earth. And as a reminder, I've got
a brand new book on the way, Tolkien's Tragedy concerning Numenor,
the Rings of Power and the Second Age. It's the
culmination of years of study, and I believe it'll change
(00:22):
the way you look at Tolkien's legendarium. If you're enjoying
this series, make sure you head over to Tolkienroad dot
substack dot com and subscribe. That's where you'll get the
early chapters of Tolkien's Tragedy and all the behind the
scenes insights I only share with my readers. All right,
let's dive in. Hey there, fellow travelers, Welcome to the
Tolkien Road, Episode three twenty eight. In this episode, we'll
(00:44):
be exploring the foundation of the Gray Havens and of
Lindon and year one of the Second Age. Before I
get started, I'd like to give a double up AAR
five to our amazing fellowship. Stick them up three two
one WHOOPSHT special thanks to this episode executive producers John R.
Caitlin of T with Tolkien, Jacob Blockom, John H and AERW.
(01:08):
Twenty seven. Also a shout out to those celebrating their
fellowship anniversary in February of twenty twenty three, Ish of
the Hammer, Jacob Blockum, Robert H. Asia V, Eric B,
John R, Andrew M, Shane Wise, Lucas W, Sean S,
Sarah W, John R, David Bigwood, kat El, Sarah M,
and Eric B. Thank you all so much for sticking
(01:29):
with us over the last year. Join the fellow Ship
of the Road by visiting patreon dot com slash Tolkien Road.
When you join the Fellowship of the Road, it helps
us to keep on evering on and lend you some
cool perks along the way. Learn more at patreon dot
com slash Tolkien Road YouTube. Hit that like button, don't
forget to subscribe, and let us know what's on your
(01:50):
mind in the comments below. All right, So on this episode,
we are looking at the year one of the second
Age of the Fall of Numenor that is, of course,
this amazing book right here, beautiful beautiful artifact that it is,
and we're finally getting into the substance right to the meat,
(02:13):
to the actual history of the fall of numenor all
thirty five hundred years of it. And in this episode
we're covering the first year Second Age one. This section
pulls from several different sources in order to compile its material.
Among these are the Lord of the Rings, the appendices
of the Lord of the Rings, the Silmrillion, History of
(02:36):
Middle Earth in particular, the last volume of the History
of Middle Earth, Volume twelve Unfinished Tales, and Tolkien's Letters.
So pulling from a lot of different sources to lay
the groundwork of this whole history of Numenor that we're
about to embark on. And it begins by telling us
a little bit about the end of the First Age.
(02:58):
So let's look at the text itself here and so
foundation of the Gray havens end of lean Don. This said,
the Second Age picks up continuous from where the Silmarillion ends.
And so the Silmarillion ends with the destruction of Agbond,
(03:21):
the overthrow of more Goth and the upheaval of the
land of this really subcontinent of Bealariond. And so it's
depicted in the image the main image of this chapter,
which you see right here. This image is bi Albanly
and entitled the Host of the Valor Descendant Agbond, and
(03:42):
you can kind of see right here right you can
see the Host of the Valor descending down into this
kind of dungeness appearing place. That's what's being depicted is
the the final assault on more Goth's stronghold at the
end of the First Age, so that's what we have.
It picks up and that's where it all ends, the
(04:03):
Silm Million. That's the very end of the Silm Million.
And now we're beginning into the Second Age year one.
The first thing the chapter really talks about is the
elves and what becomes of the elves at the end
of the First Age and beginning with the Second Age,
we hear some about this area called Leandon, and Leandon
(04:26):
is what we would probably think of as the northwest
of Middle Earth in the Third Age. Leandon is this area.
So you know, just to kind of give you your bearings,
here we have you can see here if I zoom
in a little bit, you can see that we've got
(04:48):
Brie right here, We've got the Shire right here, we've
got Rivendell kind of faintly right there. And if you
keep going this way, you see the Gray Havens, right
you see the Tower Hills. And this region to the
west of the Blue Mountains is the region of Lindon
right for Landon on the north, Harlandon on the south.
(05:12):
And if you imagine for yourself this whole area to
the west, really we see a little island over here,
the Tolfuen. This region over here used to be the continent,
the subcontinent of Belleriond. And if you look at the
map of the First Age that's included in the Selmarillion,
you'll see how this all makes sense. The Blue Mountains
(05:33):
are on the eastern border of Belleriond, and now they
are the western border of the region that we're most
familiar with of ariad Or. So this is where a
lot of the elves that were involved in the intrigues
and the wars of the First Age, the ones who survived,
a lot of them settled in this region initially at
(05:54):
the beginning of the Second Age, and these elves are
summoned to the Gray Haye to make the travel to
the Blessed, to make the journey to the Blessed realm
back to the Blessed Realm. So many of them had left,
had had self exiled from from the Blessed Realm at
the beginning of the First Age, and now they were
(06:16):
headed back to the Blessed Realm. And let's look at
the reason for this, because it's kind of interesting and
it tells us a little bit about what was going on,
and even informs our understanding of the rings of power.
So Tolkien says, there was nothing wrong, essentially in the
elves lingering against Council, still sadly with the mortal lands
(06:38):
of their old heroic deeds. But they wanted to have
their cake without eating it. They wanted the peace and
bliss and perfect memory of the West, and yet to
remain on the ordinary Earth, where their prestige is the
highest people above wild elves, dwarfs and men, was greater
than at the bottom of the hierarchy of Aleanor So
there was nothing wrong, according to Tolkien, per se with
the elves wanting to stay. It was just that they
(07:00):
had mixed They had mixed motives. They wanted to create
their own blessed realm within Middle Earth. But the good
thing about being creating their own blessed realm, there for
them was in their minds that, well, we get to
be in charge over here because we have the greatest
prestige where obviously these immortal beings amongst all these mortal creatures,
(07:21):
you know, we we we know the things of the
blessed realm. We've learned from the gods the valor, and
now we're going to create our own little blessed realms
over here. That in their mind was better than going
back to the blessed realm and kind of being at
the bottom of the pecking order if you will not
you know, it's a blessed realm, So how much of
a pecking order can there really be? But there was.
There is a hierarchy, right, there is a hierarchy, and
(07:43):
as blessed as that hierarchy may be, maybe they still
viewed it as being, you know, over here we can
at least be in charge of our own destinies. So
there's a little bit of an independent mindset right going
on with the elves that chose to stay behind. So
many of them, some some do eventually make the journey,
but many of them stay behind and continue to do
(08:04):
elvish things right in the best sense of the word.
In Middle Earth and create these beautiful little kingdoms. We
think of somewhere like Rivendell, we think of somewhere like Laurian,
like leth Lurian. Eventually, right, these are kingdoms that are
where the elves do their best work and create their
own sorts of little blessed realms within the unblessed realm
(08:26):
of Ariador and of the wider regions of Middle Earth.
So the chapter also speaks of some important elves. Among
these are are several familiar names. The first may not
be too familiar to you, but you've likely heard of it,
and once I make the connection, it will all make sense.
(08:46):
The first they mentioned is Thron Douwill. So Thron do
Will you'll probably recognize. If you've seen Peter Jackson's Hobbit movies,
you would recognize him as one of the characters. And
there he is the father of legalists, the King of Mirkwood, right,
the Elvish King of Mirkwood. He's portrayed as kind of
this haughty figure in that movie. He migrates east here
(09:08):
early on in the second Age, migrates east even over
the misty mountains. Right, go back to our map here
just kind of give you the lay of the land.
He migrates east back all the way from here across Eriador,
over the Blue Mountains to Greenwood the Great, as it's
known back then. Of course, we know it later on
(09:29):
as the Misty Mountains. Let me zoom out a little
bit so you can see the whole thing, all right,
So you see there, this is Mirkwood over here, Greenwood
the Great in the second Age, and he migrates over
there and makes his own kingdom over there. So thronduwell, yes,
he is the father of Legols, and his story, his
lifetime exit, extends all the way back into the first age.
(09:53):
So interesting. Note if you didn't already know that about
Throndu will Another elf that you've likely heard of and
actually features in the Rings of Power TV show is Gilgalad.
He is the high king of the Nold or so.
You might be wondering, who are the Nold or you
may have heard this name before. It's not really spelled
out for us in a lot of detail in the
(10:15):
Lord of the Rings. Maybe we've heard a little I
can't remember if we've heard some about it in the
TV show Rings of Power. Nevertheless, the noldor are the
main group of elves that self exile from the Blessed Realm.
In the first age, they journey from the Blessed Realm
back to Belleriond and they take on more goth and
(10:36):
they're the ones that really are obsessed with obtaining the summerles.
They're led by fan Or. Initially, fan Or dies and
there are other people other nold Or who become the
high King of the Noldor, and eventually in the second
age it is Gilgalad who is the high King of
the nold Or. So that's who the nold Or are.
They're one of these three groups of the early elves
(10:57):
who are summoned to valen Or and they make that
final journey, and they're amongst these blessed elves, but they
fall and they reject that blessedness in order to get
their vengeance against Morgoth and obtain for themselves the seer Els.
Other elves that are mentioned are Gladriel and Kelliborne, so
we all know who Gladriel is most likely, and Gladri
(11:22):
and then Kelliborne is of course her her husband. You'll
know him from especially from the Lord of the Rings.
He has not been in the Rings of Power yet,
he was not in the Rings of Power of Season one.
Was mentioned at one point in passing it's being dead,
we'll see. I doubt he's actually dead. Sorry for any spoilers,
but he is most definitely in the Lord of the Rings.
(11:45):
So let's read a little bit about the description of Galadriel. Here.
In the Second Age of Gladriel, it is said that
she was strong of body, mind and will, a match
for both the law masters and the athletes of the
elder in the days of their youth. Even among the Elders,
she was accounted beautiful, and her golden hair was held
a marvel unmatched, and the Eldar said that the light
(12:07):
of the two trees Laureline and Telperion had been snared
in her tresses from her earliest years. She had a
marvelous gift of insight into the minds of others, but
judged them with mercy and understanding. So Gladrail is a
you know, you can kind of think of it as
let me actually switch my camera there, there we go.
You can kind of think of Gladrail as being one
(12:28):
of probably Tolkien's proudest creations. He really like, he didn't
she actually was a later introduction as an elf into
the legendarium. But after he introduced her, he really like
spent a lot of time on her backstory and developing
her her participation in the history, even going back and
kind of injecting her into the stories of the First Age,
and she really does. She's a very important character. She
(12:50):
was obviously a very important character in Tolkien's mind. And
you know, she was pretty amazing as he has her
described right here. I want to highlight though, the how
he talks about her hair here, So it says she
was accounted beautiful and her golden hair was held a
marble unmatched. They said that Eldar, the other elves said
(13:11):
that the light of the two trees Laura Lene until
Perryon had been snared in her tresses. This is an
important little note here, a really interesting note, if you will,
because the silmles were the same thing was said of
the silmrles right, that the light of the sum of
the two trees was captured within the silm roles, and
that's why they gave off this beautiful, this beautiful radiance. Well,
the only thing otherwise that captured that same quality of
(13:36):
the two trees, that light of the two Trees was
apparently the hair of Gladrail, right, so that says something
to us about her beauty, about maybe her stature as well.
And it's just something that's very interesting to note because
of the role that the silver Allion's playing the Legendarium,
and that Gladriel's hair is compared to the silm Marillion
and the Silmurles and the two Trees in this way,
(13:59):
all right, And then the the the last couple of
Elves I wanted to highlight are actually not full Elves.
They are half Elvin, l Rond and l Ros. Now.
L Ros chooses a path that rejects his elf heritage,
if you will, or the uh the immortality right, the
immortality aspect. Of course, he remains descendant, having Elvish blood
(14:22):
within him, but he chooses the path of mortality and
becomes the first King of Numanor. L Rond is referred
to frequently as the half Elvin, and he is the
of these two brothers, the children of Arendel and el Wing.
They l Rond is the one that chooses to follow
the Elvish path and chooses immortality instead. So they are
(14:46):
important figures and will be very important figures in the
stories of the second Age. Why were they half Elvin?
And let's let's talk a little bit. This is really interesting.
Let's talk a little bit about why the term half
Alvin isn't actually super precise when it comes to them.
All right, So going over to Tolkien Gateway, the ever
(15:07):
useful Tolkien gateway, this is the family tree of l
Rond and el Ros here. So let me scroll down
a little bit so you can get a good picture.
All right. So here's l Rond in the center of it,
l Ros over here. You see they're both descended from
Airindil and el Wing. Well, we'll look at Aarendel's side first.
(15:27):
So Airendel is the son of Tuor and Idril. Tuor
was a man fully man one man. Idril was an
Elf maiden. So Airendel was indeed half Elvin, right, he
was indeed half Helven. El Wing, on the other hand,
is not exactly half Helven. So his followed the family
(15:48):
tree back up. Okay, So nim Loth nim loth Elf
full Elf. El Wing's mother full Elf descended from galathiel
or here uh, so full Elf on her mother's side,
but on her father's side, her father is Dior You
might remember we talked a little about Dior in the
last episode. Well, Dior is descended from Baron and Luthian
(16:12):
Baron was full man. Okay, Luthian. Luthian was half elf
and half goddess, half Maya Melian. Her mother was a Maya,
was was an actual goddess, and her father was an elf.
So this kind of follow this through Luthian, half elf,
(16:34):
half Maya, Baron, full man Dior. What does that make him, Well,
it makes him half man, quarter elf, quarter Mayar. Okay.
So el Wing, what does that make el Wing? Let's see,
let's do the math here, so full elf on her
mother's side, and then it gets complicated over here on
(16:54):
dior side. I think I think it essentially adds up
to I have eighths elf for el Wing, one eighth
no wait, I'm sorry, one yeah, one eighth Mayr and
three eighths man for el Wing, okay, And then you
(17:14):
can only imagine from there it gets complicated. But the
important thing you know in all of this, without doing
all of the math and all of that, for how
much you know how much Maya blood is there and
for l Ron and l Ros, is that we go
down the family tree, and there is a strain, this
divine strain, right, that exists within the the heritage of
(17:35):
l Rond and l Ros, right within their lines. So
we can kind of look at this and say, oh,
that's interesting. We've got ad Gorn, right, It's eventually descended
way down the history is eventually descended from l Ros.
So Ara Gorn actually has some of this maya blood
within him, right, small strain, but nevertheless it's there. Same
can be said of Arwin, right. So just an interesting
(17:57):
little detail, and it tells us again how important the
story of Baron Luthian is to you know, understanding and
kind of seeing how all of this is so beautifully
woven together by Tolkien. All right. The last thing I
want to mention is the founding of the Gray Havens.
You know, we know the Grey Havens from Lord of
the Rings, and this is where the elves are summoned
(18:18):
from right to make that trip back to the blessed
blessed Realm. All right, So let's look at this passage
about the Gray Havens. Upon the shores of the Gulf
of Loom, the elves built their havens and named them Mythland,
and there they held many ships, for the harborridge was good.
From the Gray Havens, the Eldar, ever and Anon set
(18:38):
sail fleeing from the darkness of the days of Earth,
for by the mercy of the Valalar, the firstborn could
still follow the straight road and return if they would,
to their kindred and Nowisea and Valenor beyond the encircling seas.
So the Gray Havens were set up as for this
departure point to the Blessed Realm for the elves. Of course,
later on figures other figures depart from there to Blessed
(19:00):
Realm as well. All right, Well, next time we'll be
looking at your beginning, our look at year thirty two,
which will probably take us a couple of episodes, because
there's a lot in that year to talk about, especially
with regard to Numenor, but it's essentially the founding of Numenor.
So it'll be taking a close look at the founding
of Numenor over the next several episodes, and just more
about what Tolien had to say about the island of
(19:21):
nu Minor and what it was like. All right, well,
let's look at some correspondence, how about that? All right? Well,
this week we're gonna look at an instant question from a patron.
Andrew m that he sent this on January ninth. So
Andrew's question has to do with the fate of Sarramon.
(19:42):
Andrew points out that there's this passage in the return
of the King to the dismay of those that stood
by about the body of Saramon, a gray mist gathered
and rising slowly to a great height, like smoke from
a fire. As a pale shrouded figure, it loomed over
the hill for a moment it wavered, looking to the west,
but out of the west came a cold wind, and
it bent away and with a side, dissolved into nothing.
(20:03):
Andrews says, we assume that means the Valur rejected his
spirit in returning to the west and the halls of
Mando's to be judged. So what happens to him nothing?
The void barrow White maybe roam Middle Earth as a spirit.
There's more than likely something I haven't read, but I
haven't seen it or heard about it, and I am
real curious. Thank you. It's a great question, and I'm
(20:25):
not exactly sure you know what the best answer is
to this question. But the thing that strikes me is
that Saraman's fate is very similar to Sauron's fate is
depicted in Lord of the Rings. So let me read
what it says about Suron's fate in the Lord of
the Rings. The realm of Sorrown is ended, said Gandalf.
The ring bearer has fulfilled his quest. And as the
(20:46):
captain's gaze south to the land of Mordor, it seemed
to them that black against the pall of cloud, there
rose a huge shape of shadow, impenetrable, lightning crown filling
all the sky, enormous. It reared above the world and
stretched out towards them, a vast, threatening and terrible, but impotent.
For even as it leaned over them, a great wind
took it, and it was all blown away and passed,
(21:07):
and then a hush fell. So, you know, I look
at the fate of Solermon and it's very similar to
me of what happens to Sourn. Right. It's kind of
this initial leap, you know, this smoke, angry smoke kind
of rising up and it looks ominous, and it looks
like it's going to do something else, and then it's
just kind of blown away, right, Now in Saramon's case,
he looks towards the west. It almost it describes him.
It almost sounds like he's kind of like longing, like
(21:28):
almost repentant, wanting to go there sourn not so much, right,
Sararen looks like he's ready to strike another blow and
then he gets blown away, right, just like this, this
myst that vanishes. Yeah, you know, why wouldn't they return
to the halls of Mondo's to be judged. Well, I
don't know that that was the fate of these divine
beings to be judged by Mondos. Necessarily, I know that
(21:51):
that was the fate of the elves. The elves were
when they died, they would pass to the halls of
Mondos and uh and there they would they would reside
to be judged. And I could be wrong about this,
but I'm not sure. You know, we don't really get
that precedent for for Valor and Maya because in theory,
(22:11):
like nothing like that should happen to them, because they're
not tied to their bodies in the same way that
elves and men are tied to their bodies. Right, they
put on bodies as if they were just like kind
of clothing, like we might put on clothing and they
can take take that clothing off if they want. Now,
there's something to be said about what happens to these
figures as they do more evil in the guys and
(22:35):
like kind of in their bodies, and it kind of
becomes more and more a part of them in that way.
But even then, you know, I'm not really sure that
that was we We just don't have much precedent for
saying that, like they that that's what's going to happen
to them. For example, more Goth, we know he's shut
beyond the walls of the world at the end of
the First Age. You know exactly what that looks like.
(22:56):
We're not sure, but that's what happens to him. So
I don't know that it was up to Mando's necessarily
to judge these divine beings. It almost makes me wonder that,
like think that for the divine beings that their judgment
was ultimately in the hands of Eluvatar himself, right, So
it could be that that with Souron and Suraman, they're
(23:18):
they're kind of the essence of who they were is
kind of like dissipated, you know, throughout the world so
I guess I prefer sort of a an idea of
that they're just they're dissipated, right, Their power is dissipated. Now,
maybe they've got some kind of like you know, vastly
reduced ability to still do evil throughout the world, but
(23:39):
it's very it's not concentrated in the in the same
power that it was before. Necessarily they're almost like, you know,
like like kind of the barrel Whites or like these
Raithist figures right now that that answer seems to make
a lot of sense to me, like they're just kind
of this missed, this further disembodied myst that's floating throughout
the world. I don't make too much of the word
(24:02):
nothing there. I think nothing is just you know, kind
of how it's perceived. Right, But the important thing is
that neither of them really have any power on the
level that they did before. Right, both of these figures
souron Sururmon, both being very powerful figures, no longer having
the power on the level that they did before. So
that's my take on it. Andrew, It's a really interesting question,
(24:24):
you know, It's one of those I'd love to ask
Tolkien if he was available to us to ask UH.
But I think, you know, I feel pretty I feel
pretty good about that answer. You know that they're not
that they're not necessarily faded to go to Mondo's for
judgment like elves would be. Now again, maybe I'm wrong,
could be a big could be a big legendarium fail
(24:47):
right there. But that's my take on it. So let
me know if anybody has further feedback. Would love to
UH to be shown further information that would help get
to the bottom of this question. Thanks a lot, Andrew
really appreciate you. All right, Well, that's it for this episode.
Please leave us a five star rating wherever you listen
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(25:08):
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Zeke F, James L, Chris L, Chuck f igive Ish
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Hey there, fellow travelers, Welcome to the Tolkien Road. In
this episode, we continue our journey through the fall of
Numenor with the foundation of the Gray Havens and of Leandon,
which concerns the major events that kick off the Second
Age of Middle Earth. And as a reminder, I've got
a brand new book on the way, Tolkien's Tragedy concerning Numenor,
the Rings of Power and the Second Age. It's the
culmination of years of study, and I believe it'll change
(00:22):
the way you look at Tolkien's legendarium. If you're enjoying
this series, make sure you head over to Tolkienroad dot
substack dot com and subscribe. That's where you'll get the
early chapters of Tolkien's Tragedy and all the behind the
scenes insights I only share with my readers. All right,
let's dive in. Hey there, fellow travelers, Welcome to the
Tolkien Road, Episode three twenty eight. In this episode, we'll
(00:44):
be exploring the foundation of the Gray Havens and of
Lindon and year one of the Second Age. Before I
get started, I'd like to give a double up AAR
five to our amazing fellowship. Stick them up three two
one WHOOPSHT special thanks to this episode executive producers John R.
Caitlin of T with Tolkien, Jacob Blockom, John H and AERW.
(01:08):
Twenty seven. Also a shout out to those celebrating their
fellowship anniversary in February of twenty twenty three, Ish of
the Hammer, Jacob Blockum, Robert H. Asia V, Eric B,
John R, Andrew M, Shane Wise, Lucas W, Sean S,
Sarah W, John R, David Bigwood, kat El, Sarah M,
and Eric B. Thank you all so much for sticking
(01:29):
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(01:50):
mind in the comments below. All right, So on this episode,
we are looking at the year one of the second
Age of the Fall of Numenor that is, of course,
this amazing book right here, beautiful beautiful artifact that it is,
and we're finally getting into the substance right to the meat,
(02:13):
to the actual history of the fall of numenor all
thirty five hundred years of it. And in this episode
we're covering the first year Second Age one. This section
pulls from several different sources in order to compile its material.
Among these are the Lord of the Rings, the appendices
of the Lord of the Rings, the Silmrillion, History of
(02:36):
Middle Earth in particular, the last volume of the History
of Middle Earth, Volume twelve Unfinished Tales, and Tolkien's Letters.
So pulling from a lot of different sources to lay
the groundwork of this whole history of Numenor that we're
about to embark on. And it begins by telling us
a little bit about the end of the First Age.
(02:58):
So let's look at the text itself here and so
foundation of the Gray havens end of lean Don. This said,
the Second Age picks up continuous from where the Silmarillion ends.
And so the Silmarillion ends with the destruction of Agbond,
(03:21):
the overthrow of more Goth and the upheaval of the
land of this really subcontinent of Bealariond. And so it's
depicted in the image the main image of this chapter,
which you see right here. This image is bi Albanly
and entitled the Host of the Valor Descendant Agbond, and
(03:42):
you can kind of see right here right you can
see the Host of the Valor descending down into this
kind of dungeness appearing place. That's what's being depicted is
the the final assault on more Goth's stronghold at the
end of the First Age, so that's what we have.
It picks up and that's where it all ends, the
(04:03):
Silm Million. That's the very end of the Silm Million.
And now we're beginning into the Second Age year one.
The first thing the chapter really talks about is the
elves and what becomes of the elves at the end
of the First Age and beginning with the Second Age,
we hear some about this area called Leandon, and Leandon
(04:26):
is what we would probably think of as the northwest
of Middle Earth in the Third Age. Leandon is this area.
So you know, just to kind of give you your bearings,
here we have you can see here if I zoom
in a little bit, you can see that we've got
(04:48):
Brie right here, We've got the Shire right here, we've
got Rivendell kind of faintly right there. And if you
keep going this way, you see the Gray Havens, right
you see the Tower Hills. And this region to the
west of the Blue Mountains is the region of Lindon
right for Landon on the north, Harlandon on the south.
(05:12):
And if you imagine for yourself this whole area to
the west, really we see a little island over here,
the Tolfuen. This region over here used to be the continent,
the subcontinent of Belleriond. And if you look at the
map of the First Age that's included in the Selmarillion,
you'll see how this all makes sense. The Blue Mountains
(05:33):
are on the eastern border of Belleriond, and now they
are the western border of the region that we're most
familiar with of ariad Or. So this is where a
lot of the elves that were involved in the intrigues
and the wars of the First Age, the ones who survived,
a lot of them settled in this region initially at
(05:54):
the beginning of the Second Age, and these elves are
summoned to the Gray Haye to make the travel to
the Blessed, to make the journey to the Blessed realm
back to the Blessed Realm. So many of them had left,
had had self exiled from from the Blessed Realm at
the beginning of the First Age, and now they were
(06:16):
headed back to the Blessed Realm. And let's look at
the reason for this, because it's kind of interesting and
it tells us a little bit about what was going on,
and even informs our understanding of the rings of power.
So Tolkien says, there was nothing wrong, essentially in the
elves lingering against Council, still sadly with the mortal lands
(06:38):
of their old heroic deeds. But they wanted to have
their cake without eating it. They wanted the peace and
bliss and perfect memory of the West, and yet to
remain on the ordinary Earth, where their prestige is the
highest people above wild elves, dwarfs and men, was greater
than at the bottom of the hierarchy of Aleanor So
there was nothing wrong, according to Tolkien, per se with
the elves wanting to stay. It was just that they
(07:00):
had mixed They had mixed motives. They wanted to create
their own blessed realm within Middle Earth. But the good
thing about being creating their own blessed realm, there for
them was in their minds that, well, we get to
be in charge over here because we have the greatest
prestige where obviously these immortal beings amongst all these mortal creatures,
(07:21):
you know, we we we know the things of the
blessed realm. We've learned from the gods the valor, and
now we're going to create our own little blessed realms
over here. That in their mind was better than going
back to the blessed realm and kind of being at
the bottom of the pecking order if you will not
you know, it's a blessed realm, So how much of
a pecking order can there really be? But there was.
There is a hierarchy, right, there is a hierarchy, and
(07:43):
as blessed as that hierarchy may be, maybe they still
viewed it as being, you know, over here we can
at least be in charge of our own destinies. So
there's a little bit of an independent mindset right going
on with the elves that chose to stay behind. So
many of them, some some do eventually make the journey,
but many of them stay behind and continue to do
(08:04):
elvish things right in the best sense of the word.
In Middle Earth and create these beautiful little kingdoms. We
think of somewhere like Rivendell, we think of somewhere like Laurian,
like leth Lurian. Eventually, right, these are kingdoms that are
where the elves do their best work and create their
own sorts of little blessed realms within the unblessed realm
(08:26):
of Ariador and of the wider regions of Middle Earth.
So the chapter also speaks of some important elves. Among
these are are several familiar names. The first may not
be too familiar to you, but you've likely heard of it,
and once I make the connection, it will all make sense.
(08:46):
The first they mentioned is Thron Douwill. So Thron do
Will you'll probably recognize. If you've seen Peter Jackson's Hobbit movies,
you would recognize him as one of the characters. And
there he is the father of legalists, the King of Mirkwood, right,
the Elvish King of Mirkwood. He's portrayed as kind of
this haughty figure in that movie. He migrates east here
(09:08):
early on in the second Age, migrates east even over
the misty mountains. Right, go back to our map here
just kind of give you the lay of the land.
He migrates east back all the way from here across Eriador,
over the Blue Mountains to Greenwood the Great, as it's
known back then. Of course, we know it later on
(09:29):
as the Misty Mountains. Let me zoom out a little
bit so you can see the whole thing, all right,
So you see there, this is Mirkwood over here, Greenwood
the Great in the second Age, and he migrates over
there and makes his own kingdom over there. So thronduwell, yes,
he is the father of Legols, and his story, his
lifetime exit, extends all the way back into the first age.
(09:53):
So interesting. Note if you didn't already know that about
Throndu will Another elf that you've likely heard of and
actually features in the Rings of Power TV show is Gilgalad.
He is the high king of the Nold or so.
You might be wondering, who are the Nold or you
may have heard this name before. It's not really spelled
out for us in a lot of detail in the
(10:15):
Lord of the Rings. Maybe we've heard a little I
can't remember if we've heard some about it in the
TV show Rings of Power. Nevertheless, the noldor are the
main group of elves that self exile from the Blessed Realm.
In the first age, they journey from the Blessed Realm
back to Belleriond and they take on more goth and
(10:36):
they're the ones that really are obsessed with obtaining the summerles.
They're led by fan Or. Initially, fan Or dies and
there are other people other nold Or who become the
high King of the Noldor, and eventually in the second
age it is Gilgalad who is the high King of
the nold Or. So that's who the nold Or are.
They're one of these three groups of the early elves
(10:57):
who are summoned to valen Or and they make that
final journey, and they're amongst these blessed elves, but they
fall and they reject that blessedness in order to get
their vengeance against Morgoth and obtain for themselves the seer Els.
Other elves that are mentioned are Gladriel and Kelliborne, so
we all know who Gladriel is most likely, and Gladri
(11:22):
and then Kelliborne is of course her her husband. You'll
know him from especially from the Lord of the Rings.
He has not been in the Rings of Power yet,
he was not in the Rings of Power of Season one.
Was mentioned at one point in passing it's being dead,
we'll see. I doubt he's actually dead. Sorry for any spoilers,
but he is most definitely in the Lord of the Rings.
(11:45):
So let's read a little bit about the description of Galadriel. Here.
In the Second Age of Gladriel, it is said that
she was strong of body, mind and will, a match
for both the law masters and the athletes of the
elder in the days of their youth. Even among the Elders,
she was accounted beautiful, and her golden hair was held
a marvel unmatched, and the Eldar said that the light
(12:07):
of the two trees Laureline and Telperion had been snared
in her tresses from her earliest years. She had a
marvelous gift of insight into the minds of others, but
judged them with mercy and understanding. So Gladrail is a
you know, you can kind of think of it as
let me actually switch my camera there, there we go.
You can kind of think of Gladrail as being one
(12:28):
of probably Tolkien's proudest creations. He really like, he didn't
she actually was a later introduction as an elf into
the legendarium. But after he introduced her, he really like
spent a lot of time on her backstory and developing
her her participation in the history, even going back and
kind of injecting her into the stories of the First Age,
and she really does. She's a very important character. She
(12:50):
was obviously a very important character in Tolkien's mind. And
you know, she was pretty amazing as he has her
described right here. I want to highlight though, the how
he talks about her hair here, So it says she
was accounted beautiful and her golden hair was held a
marble unmatched. They said that Eldar, the other elves said
(13:11):
that the light of the two trees Laura Lene until
Perryon had been snared in her tresses. This is an
important little note here, a really interesting note, if you will,
because the silmles were the same thing was said of
the silmrles right, that the light of the sum of
the two trees was captured within the silm roles, and
that's why they gave off this beautiful, this beautiful radiance. Well,
the only thing otherwise that captured that same quality of
(13:36):
the two trees, that light of the two Trees was
apparently the hair of Gladrail, right, so that says something
to us about her beauty, about maybe her stature as well.
And it's just something that's very interesting to note because
of the role that the silver Allion's playing the Legendarium,
and that Gladriel's hair is compared to the silm Marillion
and the Silmurles and the two Trees in this way,
(13:59):
all right, And then the the the last couple of
Elves I wanted to highlight are actually not full Elves.
They are half Elvin, l Rond and l Ros. Now.
L Ros chooses a path that rejects his elf heritage,
if you will, or the uh the immortality right, the
immortality aspect. Of course, he remains descendant, having Elvish blood
(14:22):
within him, but he chooses the path of mortality and
becomes the first King of Numanor. L Rond is referred
to frequently as the half Elvin, and he is the
of these two brothers, the children of Arendel and el Wing.
They l Rond is the one that chooses to follow
the Elvish path and chooses immortality instead. So they are
(14:46):
important figures and will be very important figures in the
stories of the second Age. Why were they half Elvin?
And let's let's talk a little bit. This is really interesting.
Let's talk a little bit about why the term half
Alvin isn't actually super precise when it comes to them.
All right, So going over to Tolkien Gateway, the ever
(15:07):
useful Tolkien gateway, this is the family tree of l
Rond and el Ros here. So let me scroll down
a little bit so you can get a good picture.
All right. So here's l Rond in the center of it,
l Ros over here. You see they're both descended from
Airindil and el Wing. Well, we'll look at Aarendel's side first.
(15:27):
So Airendel is the son of Tuor and Idril. Tuor
was a man fully man one man. Idril was an
Elf maiden. So Airendel was indeed half Elvin, right, he
was indeed half Helven. El Wing, on the other hand,
is not exactly half Helven. So his followed the family
(15:48):
tree back up. Okay, So nim Loth nim loth Elf
full Elf. El Wing's mother full Elf descended from galathiel
or here uh, so full Elf on her mother's side,
but on her father's side, her father is Dior You
might remember we talked a little about Dior in the
last episode. Well, Dior is descended from Baron and Luthian
(16:12):
Baron was full man. Okay, Luthian. Luthian was half elf
and half goddess, half Maya Melian. Her mother was a Maya,
was was an actual goddess, and her father was an elf.
So this kind of follow this through Luthian, half elf,
(16:34):
half Maya, Baron, full man Dior. What does that make him, Well,
it makes him half man, quarter elf, quarter Mayar. Okay.
So el Wing, what does that make el Wing? Let's see,
let's do the math here, so full elf on her
mother's side, and then it gets complicated over here on
(16:54):
dior side. I think I think it essentially adds up
to I have eighths elf for el Wing, one eighth
no wait, I'm sorry, one yeah, one eighth Mayr and
three eighths man for el Wing, okay, And then you
(17:14):
can only imagine from there it gets complicated. But the
important thing you know in all of this, without doing
all of the math and all of that, for how
much you know how much Maya blood is there and
for l Ron and l Ros, is that we go
down the family tree, and there is a strain, this
divine strain, right, that exists within the the heritage of
(17:35):
l Rond and l Ros, right within their lines. So
we can kind of look at this and say, oh,
that's interesting. We've got ad Gorn, right, It's eventually descended
way down the history is eventually descended from l Ros.
So Ara Gorn actually has some of this maya blood
within him, right, small strain, but nevertheless it's there. Same
can be said of Arwin, right. So just an interesting
(17:57):
little detail, and it tells us again how important the
story of Baron Luthian is to you know, understanding and
kind of seeing how all of this is so beautifully
woven together by Tolkien. All right. The last thing I
want to mention is the founding of the Gray Havens.
You know, we know the Grey Havens from Lord of
the Rings, and this is where the elves are summoned
(18:18):
from right to make that trip back to the blessed
blessed Realm. All right, So let's look at this passage
about the Gray Havens. Upon the shores of the Gulf
of Loom, the elves built their havens and named them Mythland,
and there they held many ships, for the harborridge was good.
From the Gray Havens, the Eldar, ever and Anon set
(18:38):
sail fleeing from the darkness of the days of Earth,
for by the mercy of the Valalar, the firstborn could
still follow the straight road and return if they would,
to their kindred and Nowisea and Valenor beyond the encircling seas.
So the Gray Havens were set up as for this
departure point to the Blessed Realm for the elves. Of course,
later on figures other figures depart from there to Blessed
(19:00):
Realm as well. All right, Well, next time we'll be
looking at your beginning, our look at year thirty two,
which will probably take us a couple of episodes, because
there's a lot in that year to talk about, especially
with regard to Numenor, but it's essentially the founding of Numenor.
So it'll be taking a close look at the founding
of Numenor over the next several episodes, and just more
about what Tolien had to say about the island of
(19:21):
nu Minor and what it was like. All right, well,
let's look at some correspondence, how about that? All right? Well,
this week we're gonna look at an instant question from a patron.
Andrew m that he sent this on January ninth. So
Andrew's question has to do with the fate of Sarramon.
(19:42):
Andrew points out that there's this passage in the return
of the King to the dismay of those that stood
by about the body of Saramon, a gray mist gathered
and rising slowly to a great height, like smoke from
a fire. As a pale shrouded figure, it loomed over
the hill for a moment it wavered, looking to the west,
but out of the west came a cold wind, and
it bent away and with a side, dissolved into nothing.
(20:03):
Andrews says, we assume that means the Valur rejected his
spirit in returning to the west and the halls of
Mando's to be judged. So what happens to him nothing?
The void barrow White maybe roam Middle Earth as a spirit.
There's more than likely something I haven't read, but I
haven't seen it or heard about it, and I am
real curious. Thank you. It's a great question, and I'm
(20:25):
not exactly sure you know what the best answer is
to this question. But the thing that strikes me is
that Saraman's fate is very similar to Sauron's fate is
depicted in Lord of the Rings. So let me read
what it says about Suron's fate in the Lord of
the Rings. The realm of Sorrown is ended, said Gandalf.
The ring bearer has fulfilled his quest. And as the
(20:46):
captain's gaze south to the land of Mordor, it seemed
to them that black against the pall of cloud, there
rose a huge shape of shadow, impenetrable, lightning crown filling
all the sky, enormous. It reared above the world and
stretched out towards them, a vast, threatening and terrible, but impotent.
For even as it leaned over them, a great wind
took it, and it was all blown away and passed,
(21:07):
and then a hush fell. So, you know, I look
at the fate of Solermon and it's very similar to
me of what happens to Sourn. Right. It's kind of
this initial leap, you know, this smoke, angry smoke kind
of rising up and it looks ominous, and it looks
like it's going to do something else, and then it's
just kind of blown away, right, Now in Saramon's case,
he looks towards the west. It almost it describes him.
It almost sounds like he's kind of like longing, like
(21:28):
almost repentant, wanting to go there sourn not so much, right,
Sararen looks like he's ready to strike another blow and
then he gets blown away, right, just like this, this
myst that vanishes. Yeah, you know, why wouldn't they return
to the halls of Mondo's to be judged. Well, I
don't know that that was the fate of these divine
beings to be judged by Mondos. Necessarily, I know that
(21:51):
that was the fate of the elves. The elves were
when they died, they would pass to the halls of
Mondos and uh and there they would they would reside
to be judged. And I could be wrong about this,
but I'm not sure. You know, we don't really get
that precedent for for Valor and Maya because in theory,
(22:11):
like nothing like that should happen to them, because they're
not tied to their bodies in the same way that
elves and men are tied to their bodies. Right, they
put on bodies as if they were just like kind
of clothing, like we might put on clothing and they
can take take that clothing off if they want. Now,
there's something to be said about what happens to these
figures as they do more evil in the guys and
(22:35):
like kind of in their bodies, and it kind of
becomes more and more a part of them in that way.
But even then, you know, I'm not really sure that
that was we We just don't have much precedent for
saying that, like they that that's what's going to happen
to them. For example, more Goth, we know he's shut
beyond the walls of the world at the end of
the First Age. You know exactly what that looks like.
(22:56):
We're not sure, but that's what happens to him. So
I don't know that it was up to Mando's necessarily
to judge these divine beings. It almost makes me wonder that,
like think that for the divine beings that their judgment
was ultimately in the hands of Eluvatar himself, right, So
it could be that that with Souron and Suraman, they're
(23:18):
they're kind of the essence of who they were is
kind of like dissipated, you know, throughout the world so
I guess I prefer sort of a an idea of
that they're just they're dissipated, right, Their power is dissipated. Now,
maybe they've got some kind of like you know, vastly
reduced ability to still do evil throughout the world, but
(23:39):
it's very it's not concentrated in the in the same
power that it was before. Necessarily they're almost like, you know,
like like kind of the barrel Whites or like these
Raithist figures right now that that answer seems to make
a lot of sense to me, like they're just kind
of this missed, this further disembodied myst that's floating throughout
the world. I don't make too much of the word
(24:02):
nothing there. I think nothing is just you know, kind
of how it's perceived. Right, But the important thing is
that neither of them really have any power on the
level that they did before. Right, both of these figures
souron Sururmon, both being very powerful figures, no longer having
the power on the level that they did before. So
that's my take on it. Andrew, It's a really interesting question,
(24:24):
you know, It's one of those I'd love to ask
Tolkien if he was available to us to ask UH.
But I think, you know, I feel pretty I feel
pretty good about that answer. You know that they're not
that they're not necessarily faded to go to Mondo's for
judgment like elves would be. Now again, maybe I'm wrong,
could be a big could be a big legendarium fail
(24:47):
right there. But that's my take on it. So let
me know if anybody has further feedback. Would love to
UH to be shown further information that would help get
to the bottom of this question. Thanks a lot, Andrew
really appreciate you. All right, Well, that's it for this episode.
Please leave us a five star rating wherever you listen
to podcasts and drop us a line. You can correspond
(25:08):
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All right, Thank you to our amazing patrons, especially the following.
John R. Caitlin of t with Tolkien, Jacob Blockom, John
h AIREW twenty seven, Emilia P, Jonathan D, Mike M,
(25:30):
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Richard K, Matt R. Matthew W. Garrett P. Chris K,
John W. Eugene D, Chris B, Daniel S, SEB M,
Shane Supreme mis Anonymous, Andrew T. Redhawk, Shannon S. Brian O,
Zeke F, James L, Chris L, Chuck f igive Ish
of the Hammer, Teresa C. David of Pines with Jack,
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