In this episode:
At the commencement speech for Dartmouth College's graduates in June of this year, Roger Federer spoke eloquently on the power of positive thinking and how it enabled him to win close to 80% of his matches over the course of his career despite having lost almost half of the points that he played in those matches. Can athletes in other sports learn from his example and is there evidence to support this notion that being positive can affect outcomes? We discuss in the Medical Mailbag. Also, a conversation with Michelle Bond, a kinesiologist and researcher on the importance of understanding the fascia and how as athletes we can leverage that understanding to improve our performance and recovery.
Segments:
[08:36]- Medical Mailbag:
[38:00]- Interview: Michele Bond
Links
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Now, you cannot separatemuscle and fascia, but the idea is
to perform certain movements with
certain load in a certain way to
address just the fascia, because
ittruly helps muscle.
It's not muscle that'snecessarily stretching, it's the
fascial component.
(00:21):
And when it's conditioned, ithelps with force transmission.
Hello and welcome to theOctober 4, 2024 edition of the Tri
Dock podcast.
I'm your host, Jeff Sankoff,the Tri doc, an emergency physician,
triathlon coach, and multiple Ironman
finisher coming to you as always
frombeautiful, sunny Denver, Colorado.
(00:48):
Since the last episode of thisprogram published, we have seen in
a very short time the women's Ironman
world championship raced in Nice,
France, and most recently the latest
of the t 100 events that was held
inIbiza, Spain.
Now, both of those events beardiscussion, as does some other interesting
stories that have taken place in
our multi sport world.
(01:09):
However, what I really want totalk about in the few minutes that
Ihave before I launch into the substance
of this program is the other major
event that took place in Europe on
Sunday.
Because I believe, not just asan avid fan of cycling, but as a
student of sports history as well,
that it was the UCI mens road race
for the world championship that arguably
will be the thing that will have
themost significant impact on this and
on generations to come.
(01:35):
Now, if you've been under arock for the last few days and have
not heard about the incredible 100
kilometer attack of 26 year old slovenian
rider Tade Pugatcha, including a
heretofore unheard of 50 1 km solo
ride at the front to victory, then
Iurge you, go read about it.
Or better yet, find a video onYouTube and you can watch it.
(01:57):
But even if you somehow missedit, I know many of you will already
bewell versed in his incredible rise.
But lets take a step back justfor a second in order to truly appreciate
the brilliance of what this guy has
done to this point.
Because quite frankly, we arewitnessing something really, really
special.
Tadi Pugachas story isnt justabout winning, its also about how
he wins, the sheer audacity and dominance
he brings to the sport.
(02:24):
His 2020 Tour de Francevictory at just 21 years of age is
already legendary.
That iconic stage 20 timetrial on laden la planche des belle
filles wasnt just a coup.
It was a seismic moment in cycling.
Think about it.
Heres this young, relativelyunknown rider in his second grand
Tour event ever, flipping the entire
race on its head, taking the yellow
jersey from Primus Roglic in one
ofthe most dramatic finishes in Tour
history.
(02:52):
And it wasnt just that he won,its how he destroyed the rest of
the field and expectations.
On that day.
He didnt just inch Roglic outby a handful of seconds.
He blew the competition away.
It was the kind of performancethat transcends the sport and enters
into cycling folklore.
And if you thought that 2020was just a flash in the pan, Pugacha
quickly proved he wasnt done.
(03:16):
In 2021, he returned evenstronger, becoming only the youngest
rider since the 1970s to win back
toback Tour de France titles.
His ride was nothing short ofa masterclass that year, especially
hisbrutal attacks in the mountains.
But what makes Pugacha trulyremarkable is his versatility.
Its not uncommon to seedominant climbers, strong time trialists
or fast sprinters, but to see someone
excel in all of those aspects, thats
really rare.
(03:44):
Pugacha is the ultimate all rounder.
He can dance up the steepestmountains with the best of the climbers,
grind out power in time trials like
a specialist, and still punch hard
in classic style races.
Hes won the Tour de Franceagain this past year in 24 in unbelievable
style with out competition.
Hes won some of the monumentslike Liege, Bastogne Liege, the Tour
of Flanders and more.
(04:09):
And lets not forget hisvictory at the 2021 Strade Bianchi,
where he attacked solo 50 km from
the finish and did so, making it
look effortless.
Beyond his versatility, itshis racing mentality that stands
out.
Pugacha doesnt ridedefensively or play it safe.
Like so many GC contenders, heraces to win from the front, launching
attacks that others would hesitate
to make.
(04:33):
Rider who createsopportunities, not one who waits
forthem to come.
His audacious style hasreignited the passion for aggressive
racing at the highest level.
And crucially, he races withan instinct that's almost impossible
to coach.
He reads the race perfectly,knows exactly when to make his move,
and when he goes, there's little
anyone can do to stop him.
(04:55):
For fans like me, it's thisblend of tactical brilliance, physical
dominance and fearless racing that
has made a pugacha a rider.
I can't take my eyes off.
And on top of it, his demeanorof youthful exuberance and joy, of
good sportsmanship when he doesn't
win,and even better sportsmanship than
he does, he brings an old school
flairto a sport that's increasingly dominated
by numbers, wattage and marginal
gains.
(05:20):
And there's somethingrefreshing about a rider who races
oninstinct and guts, even as he rides
with the legs of a generational talent.
With that little tuft of hairsticking out from his helmet.
In many ways, Pugacha is athrowback to the legends of cycling,
riders who could win any race on
any terrain.
But with the cutting edgeconditioning and preparation of modern
sport, we saw that amplified this
past weekend when he became the first
rider in almost 40 years to win cycling's
triple crown, the Giro d'Italia,
the Tourde France, and the world championships,
all inone season.
(05:54):
And the scary part?
He's still only in his mid twenties.
The dominance we've seen sofar could just be the beginning.
So whether you're a hardcorefan of the sport or a newcomer, it's
impossible to ignore what Tadi Pugacha
is doing.
He's not just winning races,he's redefining what's possible in
modern cycling.
We're lucky to witness hiscareer in real time.
(06:15):
In most circumstances, no onereally knows when they are in the
presence of a mozart or a Picasso
untillong after they are gone.
If you are still not followingthe sport of cycling, I urge you
todo so and bear witness to a talent
ofthat kind of caliber while you still
can and sit back and just Marvel
and enjoy.
(06:35):
On the show today, JulietHockman and I are going to discuss
apopular reel thats been making the
rounds on social media for a little
while now.
Its a video of thecommencement speech that was given
byRoger Federer at Dartmouth College
acouple of years ago, and in it he
speaks rather eloquently on the power
of positive thinking to affect performance
in sport.
On the medical mailbag, wewill look at the science that supports
this idea and discuss how we use
itas athletes and as coaches to get
the best from ourselves and from
those who we coach.
(07:04):
That's coming up in just acouple of minutes.
Later, I'm joined bykinesiologist Michel Bond.
Michel has done a lot ofresearch into how to help athletes
byleveraging an understanding of how
to improve fascial connections.
We are going to discuss whatthe fascia is, why it's important,
and howyou can use what she has learned
toimprove your own injury resilience
and recovery.
(07:26):
And that's going to be comingup in just a short while.
Before all of that, I want totake a moment to thank again all
ofmy Patreon supporters of this podcast
who have decided that for about the
price of a cup of coffee per month,
they could sign up to support this
program and in doing so, get access
tobonus interviews and other segments
thatcome out about every month or so.
The next of those bonusepisodes will be released next week
and will feature a detailed medical
segment on some new research that
shows how much efficiency in cycling
isunaffected by aging.
(07:56):
This is a surprising findingand has some important implications
for allof us as we train and race into our
older age groups.
That bonus episode and otherslike it are available on a private
feedfor all of my subscribers.
Plus, for north americansubscribers who sign up at the ten
dollar per month level of support,
theyreceive a special thank you gift
inthe form of a Boco Tridoc podcast
running hat.
(08:18):
So visit my Patreon sitetoday@patreon.com tridoc podcast
andbecome a supporter so that you too
can get access to these bonus episodes.
And maybe the cool gift as well.
And as always, thanks so muchin advance just for considering.
It'S time again for themedical mailbag, which means I'm
joined by my friend and colleague,
Juliette Hockman.
(08:41):
Juliet is traveling.
You're in Washington, DC, right?
I am.
I'm here in DC visiting my family.
Yes.
So from one Washington to the other.
And that's right, last time wewere about to be.
That's right.
Just a week ago I was inWashington state with you.
Yeah, exactly.
Before we get to the subjectat hand, I do want to do some housekeeping.
(09:02):
In the last episode, Iinterviewed Fiona Moriarty and we
were discussing the location of the
2024 world championships for the
70.3 distance.
I was quite adamant, havingvisited New Zealand previously, my
brother, having lived in New Zealand,
that the location for this year's
world championships is Taupo, New
Zealand.
(09:25):
She had said it was taup, new Zealand.
I had never heard it said thatway, and I was quite sure assured
of myself.
I'm never.
Yeah, exactly.
Longtime listener friend ofboth of our, Stephanie van Beber
reached out to me and said that she
too, thought it might be Topah.
(09:46):
And she said every once in awhile I might be wrong.
And I said, no, not possible.
But I decided to reach out toan expert.
So here, have a listen.
This is my conversation withNew Zealand resident and Akiwi, who's
actually also in Washington, DC right
now.
Nikki Sweetbrunna.
Nikki, how do you pronouncethe name of the city or town where
the 70.3 world championships are
going to be held this december in
New Zealand?
(10:17):
So you are both right.
The correct pronunciation is topaw.
And while I might not think Ihave an accent, apparently I do.
The best way to explain how topronounce it is to say to, as in
toe on your feet.
And paw, as in paw of a cat.
So if you can say taup, you'repretty much fang on how the local
mori pronounce it.
(10:43):
Some of us, like myself and myfamily, we call it Taupo.
But no one is going to greetyou either way you say it.
So when I was there, I neverheard Taup.
That was something brand newto me when Fiona mentioned it during
our interview.
And in all of the years thatI've been referring to the places
Ivisited in New Zealand, I would always
say Taupo is Taupo how you and other
people in New Zealand will refer
to it.
(11:10):
And is that considered an affront?
Do the Maori get or it's not okay?
Absolutely not.
So whether you want to call itTaupo, which I call it Taupo, or
you want to call it taup, every way
you feel most comfortable is absolutely
fine.
There are a lot of place nameswithin New Zealand where you can
say them both way.
(11:32):
And I think probably over thelast few years, a lot more people
aregetting more comfortable pronouncing
itprobably the correct way.
But as I say, no one is goingto look at you twice.
And probably the majority ofpeople still call it helper.
So there you have it.
We're both right.
But I definitely owe Fiona an apology.
I'm going to apologize again, Fiona.
(11:54):
I'm so sorry.
But also, I'm going to sendher an email to make sure that she
hears.
And if I was overly stridentin my belief in how it should be
said, we have a really interesting
subject today.
The subject of the medicalmailbag is a Instagram reel that
Isaw, actually.
It's funny because I saw itafter pretty much everybody else
did.
(12:16):
And I sent it to you at thetime, and I thought, wow, what a
great subject for a medical mailbag.
And you agreed that you saidyou'd seen it.
And that Instagram reel isprobably something everybody who
islistening to this has seen.
It was the video of RogerFederer giving the commencement speech
at Dartmouth.
Was it 2022?
Do you remember what year it was?
I think it was more recentlythan that because we knew some people
in that class.
(12:38):
So I want to say it was 2023.
Okay.
It was within the last coupleof years, Roger Federer was giving
thecommencement address, and he spoke
just really beautifully about the
power of positive thinking in its
ability to influence performance
in sport,but also in how it can be adapted
toplay a role in your everyday life
and in your ability to succeed.
(13:03):
And I'm not going to play thewhole thing here, but I do want to
play what I think is a really important
segment and what really got us talking.
So have a listen to it here.
In tennis, perfection is impossible.
In the 1526 singles matches Iplayed in my career, I won almost
80%of those matches.
(13:24):
Now, I have a question for you.
What percentage of points doyou think I won in those matches?
Only 54%.
In other words, even topranked tennis players win barely
morethan half of the points they play.
When you lose every secondpoint on average, you learn not to
dwell on every shot.
(13:47):
You teach yourself to think,okay, I double faulted.
It's only a point.
Okay, I came to the net and Igot past again.
It's only a point.
Even a great shot, an overheadbackhand smash that ends up on ESPN's
top ten playlist, that, too, is just
a point.
So here's why I'm telling you this.
When you're playing a point,it has to be the most important thing
in the world.
(14:09):
And it is.
But when it's behind you, it'sbehind you.
This mindset is really crucialbecause it frees you to fully commit
to the next point and the next point
after that with intensity, clarity
and focus.
The truth is, whatever gameyou play in life, sometimes you're
going to lose a point, a match, a
season, a job.
(14:34):
It's a rollercoaster with manyups and downs.
And it's natural when you'redown, to doubt yourself and to feel
sorry for yourself.
And by the way, your opponentshave self doubt, too.
Don't ever forget that.
But negative energy is wasted energy.
So that's really the crux of it.
This idea, I've always.
(14:54):
When I first heard him speakand he talked about this notion that
he only won 54% of his points.
I know.
Isn't that incredible?
Just blew me away.
And this idea that thedifference between the top players
andthe players who aren't at the top
is just their whole mental attitude,
their ability to just play every
point like it's the most important
pointof their career.
(15:15):
But the second it'soverdeveloped, you have to move on.
You have to be able todispense with failure and move on
with positive thinking to the next
point, no matter what just happened
right now.
He referenced this idea thatthere was a study, and I couldn't
find it.
Neither could Cosette Rhodes,who was the intern who worked on
this segment.
(15:37):
We were unable to find a studythat he was referencing.
And there's another gentlemanwho is on Instagram who also famously
quotes the study, and he actually
talksabout how he did the study.
He's a psychologist, he's apublic speaker, he does a lot of
work with athletes.
And he talks about this studyin South Florida on professional
tennisplayers in the top 25.
(15:57):
We cannot find a study, andthat doesn't mean it wasn't done,
just means it wasn't published in
the peer reviewed literature.
It also just means I can'tcomment on it.
But I find myself questioning,at least with tennis players, how
much positive thinking can really
influence that.
If tennis player like RogerFederer is only going to win 54%
ofhis points in order to win, have
acareer like he did, what about the
bad boys like John McEnroe?
(16:24):
What about Jimmy Connors?
Those guys were notorious forfreaking out after losing points.
They did it, I think, not somuch because they had a bad attitude,
butbecause they were probably trying
toinfluence the guy on the other side
of the court, I'm guessing.
But hang on.
I think that the power of whatFederer was saying in the study that
he or the so called study that he
was referencing wasn't so much the
outward behavior that was demonstrated
aftera poor point or after losing a point.
(16:53):
It was the internal ability toabsolutely leave it behind and move
on to the next point as the most
important point in the game.
So if you lost a point,instead of dwelling on it and oh
my gosh, I suck, I'm a bad player,
Ishould have gotten that one.
I failed.
It's more, give me the next one.
(17:14):
I'm powerful, I'm strong, I'msmart, I'm a great player, I'm going
to kill the next one.
And I think that and whetheror not you agree with sort of McEnroe's
poor behavior on the courts, he may
have been doing that internally.
In fact, he probably was.
Well, I 100% think there'ssomething to what he's saying.
I guess what I'm pushing backwith a little bit is that.
(17:37):
I'll give you an example.
I found some evidence.
I did find one study on tennisplayers, and this study on tennis
players said that mental techniques
andpositive thinking actually had an
impact on the ability of players
to gettheir first serve in.
So when you gave players asort of, you gave them coaching for
positive thinking and they implemented
thatpositive thinking, their first serve
percentage went up.
(18:07):
And I thought that was really interesting.
What else can get your firstserve percentage up is lowering the
serve velocity.
If somebody hits the ball lesshard, they can get their first serve
percentage 100%, but they're going
toget blown out.
Right.
They're going to lose every point.
So great.
They're very positive.
They're going to get a greatserve percentage, but that doesn't
necessarily translate to winning
allthe points.
(18:32):
There is definitely the factthat Federer, sure, he's positive
mindset.
He's able to deal with hisfailure, move to the next point,
buthe's still, still, that he's still
Roger Federer.
I think that there's probablymore to the fact that he's Roger
Federer and that the mindset aspect
ofit maybe took him to that other level.
I think that his message,though, going away from tennis player,
his message of being able to look
atfailure as something not to beat
yourself down on, but rather to grow
from and to learn from and also this
idea to just leave it behind you
and immediately move on to the next
thing in a positive mindset.
(19:11):
That to me is something thatwe can all learn from, not just in
sport, but in life.
No, 100%.
And it's interesting.
You and I just came off thiswonderful weekend where we had, we
raced ourselves and we also had 22
of our athletes there.
And one of the things that Iwill often counsel athletes on before
a big race, particularly if it's
their a race and particularly if
they're new to racing with lots and
lots of people, and it's a much bigger
show.
(19:37):
If you go to an Ironman race,for example, or a challenge race,
it's a much bigger show than a local
race is that something will go wrong.
Right.
It's almost inevitable that insuch a complex day as a triathlon,
to be along course triathlon, something
will go wrong.
And my advice is identify whatthe problem is, fix the problem and
move on.
(20:00):
It's not going to ruin your day.
It's not going to.
Don't dwell on the problem,don't worry about it.
Don't keep repeating the problem.
Just move on.
Move completely on from it andto whatever the next thing is, task
is that you have to do.
And because it's so easy toget derailed mentally and emotionally,
particularly if you're newer to the
sport, right.
(20:20):
You think, oh, there goes thewhole day and I'm terrible.
And you just go down therabbit hole.
The ability to recover whenall of these hiccups happen, which
they happen multiple times over a
race.
And we see that with theprofessionals, too, in our sport.
Professionals for athletes as well.
Yeah, I couldn't agree more.
I think as a coach, one of thethings that I try to imbue my athletes
with is that kind of adaptability
and thatkind of attitude of, you know, I've
said it on this podcast many times,
focus on the things you can control.
(20:48):
Be prepared for all thedifferent eventualities that can
come up.
And if they do come up, thenyou're ready to go.
You've got your plan, and it'snot as much of a surprise or a stress,
but then also whatever it is, a flat
tire is the most common thing, right?
You get a flat on the bike, fine.
You just deal with thatproblem, you fix it, and then you
forget about it.
(21:08):
Because the most commonmistake I think athletes make is
they think about all the time they
lost.
Oh, they exaggerate the time.
They think, oh, it took me 20minutes to fix that flat when in
reality, it was maybe five.
And then they go out on thebike and they blow themselves up
trying to make up that 20 minutes
time.
And I made that mistake as anewer athlete and recognized.
(21:30):
And so the next time I got aflat, I was like, no, that's time
lost.
I can't make up for it.
I need to continue executingthe plan that I was on and just that
I can't do anything about what's
inthe past, but I can control how I
react and how I move forward.
And that's a good example ofhow I had a failure, because something
came up and I didn't respond well
toit, and I blew myself up and didn't
have a good race.
(21:51):
And so I.
Instead of taking that failureas a sign that, oh, I'm terrible
and Ican't do this sport, instead, I looked
back at it, and I really took something
from it.
I speak of adam all the time.
I'm sorry.
Constantly bringing him up,but I tell adam, after every single
race, there's always something you
can find in every single race that
you could have done better.
No matter if it's your prrace, no matter what it is, there's
always something.
(22:14):
Find something in the racethat you think that you could have
done better from.
Don't dwell in it, but learnfrom it.
And then look for.
And then in a race where youdon't think it went, it's not your
favorite race, there's always something
positive you can find.
So I tell them, find thepositive thing, dwell on that, find
the negative thing, learn from that,
and move forward.
And I try to tell my athletesall the same kinds of things.
(22:37):
I found some evidence to showthat this positive thinking actually
works, and I think it's worth discussing
just briefly.
One of the studies comes outof iranian taekwondo athletes, which
is an interesting subset of athletes.
Unfortunately, its a verysmall study, but the findings were
pretty interesting.
And basically, the takeawaysfrom this study was pretty simple.
It was that of many differenttraits that they looked at trying
toimbue these athletes with optimism
wasthe only one significantly associated
withvo two peak and heart rate max.
(23:10):
They could actually see vo twopeak go up and heart rate max go
up, and social skills and control
werecorrelated with relative peak power.
So if you improved athletesability to have good social lives,
andlet's face it, triathletes are very
social people and being able to control
their circumstances.
So focusing on the things youcan control, like I just said.
(23:32):
So now, very small study, onlyten athletes in the study.
So it's hard to really knowwhat to take out of it.
But I think it's a reallyinteresting finding that again, as
you and I have both talked about,
yourmental outlook as you go into competition,
as you go into training is so important.
I've talked about my own experiences.
You've talked about yours.
Tell us about what one of thesort of big things you took away.
(23:54):
I know you've talked a lotabout your experience as a rower
andthe importance of the boathouse.
What are some of the thingsthat the boathouse gave you for being
able to cope with setbacks and being
able to focus on positivity?
The thing that we've saidseveral times already is just understand
what you can control and what you
can't control, and the things you
can control.
(24:20):
Work on those elements thevery best you can.
So that when you go into,whether it's a rowing race or a triathlon,
you feel that you are as best possible
prepared as you can be for that day,
for that event, on that day, right.
And what I tell my athletes,and I constantly tell myself, and
we've talked about this as well,
isyou want to be standing in that swim
shoe, really believing in your heart
of hearts that you've done everything
youpossibly could to get there right,
tobe there healthy, and to be there
fast and fit and everything else,
given whatever life was throwing
at youin the preceding six months.
(24:53):
And then you want to get tothe finish line believing that you
did absolutely everything you could
in the previous whatever it is, four
and a half, five and a half, six
and a half hours to execute the very
best race you could, given the circumstances
that the day gave you.
And I think we can both talkabout our experiences.
Last Sunday, you came burningby me with 1 mile to know on that
run and I knew you were giving it
everything you could so that you
could feel really satisfied as you
came across the finish line.
(25:21):
You were as far up that podiumas you could be.
Similar to me.
I had a very similarexperience, and we both made mistakes
during the race.
My mistake, I actually took awrong turn on the ride.
I was riding completely by myself.
There wasn't anybody around me.
Incredibly lonely out there.
I lost on space, and I turnedright when I should have gone straight.
And so for about 10 seconds,I'm like, wow, juliette, that was
aridiculously stupid thing to do.
(25:43):
Wake up.
Come on.
I think I even yelled at myself.
Come on, get with me.
Got myself back on course, letmyself ride hard for about the time
I'd lost, which is probably 20 seconds,
and then settled back in and finished
the race.
It's having the confidencethat things will go wrong, and you
can handle them when they go wrong.
(26:04):
And solving the problem whenyou're in it and just not letting
it rock.
Your day, that's one of thethings I've.
That's one of the things I'velearned from you, that.
That idea of making sure whenyou show up on the start that you
feel satisfied that you did everything
youcould have.
And that was something that,for a long time, I would show up
on start lines just.
(26:26):
And I don't do that anymore now.
I don't miss workouts.
If I miss a workout, it'sbecause, like, I did this week or
where I have Covid and I just physically
was unable to do a workout.
But otherwise, I will do whatI have to make sure that I get my
workouts in and without impact.
I do what I need to make sure.
When I say that, I want to be clear.
I'm not saying I'm going to domy workouts at the expense of any.
(26:48):
Everything else.
What I'm doing is I am makingsure that I accommodate for the fact
that I have a workout, and I know
it's important to me, and I'm going
to get it done around all my other
responsibilities.
And that was something thatwas really impactful the first time
you said that to me, and it added
tothe mental strategies that I have.
I want to always show up at arace, and I want to always be standing
there in the start confident that
Idid everything I could.
(27:15):
I was going to say, let's bereally clear here.
That doesn't mean yourpreparation is perfect.
I mean, going into the racelast weekend, because of injuries,
my runwas completely undercooked.
But it was the best I coulddo, given what I was working with
atthe time.
You know, maybe once in ourlife, we all get to put together
a racewhere our preparation is perfect
aswell as executing all the pieces.
(27:38):
But ren, talking about justgiven the circumstances that you're.
Given, that you did everythingyou possibly could.
So.
And your reference to my,like, going as hard as I could in
the last mile is, again, from learning
from failures.
I have called you from raceswhere I was passed in the last 500
meters and ended up losing a podium
spot by less than a second.
(28:03):
And I have learned the hardway that I just do not want to ever
have that happen because I didn't
giveeverything in the last little bit.
That's how I approach all myraces unless I have the information
that Ihave a big gap or anything like that,
which I did not have in this case.
And, yeah, so there's someother stuff here that I think is
worthwhile reviewing.
(28:26):
We found a study that talkedabout effects of psychological and
psychosocial interventions on sport
performance.
This is a meta analysis of 35different papers looking at psychological
andpsychosocial interventions and whether
or not they actually were impactful
onathletes and their performance.
And basically it found thatthere really is a very strong correlation,
not clear causation, but a very strong
correlation showing a positive effect.
(28:56):
When you have these kinds ofinterventions, when you get athletes,
when you give athletes tools to be
positive, to have means of dealing
withfailures, we're calling them failures,
but maybe not setbacks.
Setbacks.
Thank you.
Then they do better overall.
But what I found mostinteresting in this study, the most
interesting finding, was who it was
that was the most effective provider
ofthose interventions.
(29:22):
It wasn't practitioners likesports psychologists.
It wasn't researchers, itwasn't the individuals or equipment
managers.
It was coaches.
Coaches like you and me.
It was when the coaches whoprovided the athletes with the strategies,
the athletes really took them in
most efficiently, most effectively,
andactually had the best success, which
I thought was pretty darn fascinating,
andgoes again to reinforce the importance
ofhaving a coach, of having a coach
whobelieves in you and who is going
toteach you how to do all of these
different mental skills of things
likevisualization, things like rehearsals,
things like.
(30:05):
We talked, when I spoke toDaya Grant, we talked about getting
into flow state and clutch state,
andhow you can practice those kinds
ofthings in your training.
These are all skills thatcoaches can provide you with and
that Juliette provides her athletes
with.
And I work with my athletes onin order to try and give our athletes
the best chances of success.
I feel like we, a few minutesago, moved away a little bit from
the topic of conversation that we
want this discussion to pursue in
that what the center talk was really
talking about was even in the face
of losing points, in the face of
these many failures that take place
throughout the tennis match, of returning
to that positive internal voice,
thatthe next point will be better, that
I am a good athlete, that I'm a good
tennis player, that I can win this,
that I'm better than my opponent,
whatever.
(30:57):
And I think that those veryvisceral voices, if you will, that
have to exist in an athlete's head.
They come from the athlete.
Yes.
They can also come from a coach.
Absolutely.
I think you and I both had theexperience through our athletic career
where we see a workout or we, our
coach tells us what they expect our
race performance is going to be,
and we're like, I can't push those
watts, or I can't run that fast,
orwhatever there is.
(31:29):
And then, of course, we do.
And that, of course, beliefcomes from the coach and the coach
basically holding us up to a standard
that we didn't know we could attain.
And by having someone elsetell us, we begin to believe it.
And I know that I've certainlytold athletes, yes, you can do a
70.3, and they'll say, no, I can't.
I've only ever done a sprint,and I said, no, in six months you
can do a 70.3, let's sign up for
one, or whatever it is, putting that
out there saying, yes, I believe
you,athlete can do what's.
(31:58):
And then they begin to believeit, and they believe it more and
more.
Right?
So there is the belief thatcomes from externally, where a coach's
voice is saying, yes, you can do
this goal, whatever it is.
But I think that the bulk ofthis really does have to come from
the athlete.
And I do think it is, maybepart of it is internally learned,
but Ialso think it is a learned skill
onhow to push yourself along when things
don't go right.
(32:31):
We've talked about this beforeon this podcast about having that
kind of mental toolkit of, this is
what I'm going to say to myself when
my goggles get knocked off, or when
I'm way off the pack, or when I'm
under shooting my power, or when
myrun paces off, or when someone comes
find me who I know is in my age group,
this is what I'm going to say to
myself.
(32:51):
And being able to rummagearound in that bag of tricks and
come out with.
I have all kinds of thingsthat I say to myself that are raised
and some of them are worse.
To say them outside of racistsituation are ridiculous.
Right?
They sound absurd.
And I remember learning thisas a young rower, as a young Olympian.
I would say things to myselfthat, again, were absurd within the
context.
But in the moment you believethem and it inspires you and it moves
you along and it takes you to the
next level and it has you continuing
tobelieve that, get out of my way.
(33:23):
I'm coming for you.
Get out of my way.
Yeah.
And that, I think, is what.
And maybe whether you'recompeting for a podium spot or not,
maybe you're just.
You just need to keep going onthe run.
It might be a slightlydifferent voice, but it is.
I am powerful, I am strong, Iam kicking ass.
I am feeding these hills for breakfast.
I am whatever it is.
But athletes have to practicethat and have to have that.
(33:46):
It doesn't just happen.
Right?
And I think we're saying thesame thing.
I think all I was saying wasthat in some cases, I know for myself,
I've developed some of these things
by myself.
Some of the mantras I havecame from me, but a lot of it has
come from external places.
Some of it has come from coaches.
Some of it has come from my,my friends who, like yourself and
Benny and Kelly, who are such phenomenal
successes, who I learn from by hearing
what you tell yourself.
(34:13):
And I start doing that, Istart picking up those habits.
Hanging around with otherpeople who are amazing athletes really
rubs off.
So I think that and having acoach who has succeeded and has done
well, I think also is really helpful
ifyou want to succeed, because then
you can learn from what they've done.
And it doesn't mean that youhave to want to be a world champion.
(34:37):
It doesn't mean that you haveto want to get on the podium, but
you could still benefit from learning
how to incorporate some of those
skills because it will help you achieve
whatever your goals are.
And I guess that's all I wassaying, because exactly like you're
saying, you have to practice them.
You have to practice positivethinking in your everyday life.
You have to practice it.
(34:57):
Finding those failures, thoselittle micro failures that happen
andlearning to see them as opportunities.
And every time you see it asan opportunity, as a way to grow
andget better, you've succeeded.
And you're just going to makeyourself propel along that pathway
towards the goal that you have.
You know, there's anotherwonderful story, another wonderful
penetrated story that I learned.
(35:20):
So Serena Williams, I don'tknow if she's still coached or exactly
what time period she was coached
bythis french guy named Patrick.
His last name is unusual, so Idon't remember it, but his name was
Patrick.
He was a french guy.
And I guess there was oneWimbledon, and Serena was playing
incredibly badly and every time she
came to net, she lost the point.
And so she's getting extremely frustrated.
(35:40):
And between matches, her coachin this, if you can imagine this,
with sort of a french accent and
the whole thing she said, he said,
serena, I'm watching you play, and
every time you come to met, I just
sit back in my chair and relaxed
and Iknow you're going to win the point.
And Serena looks at him andsays, really?
I thought I was blowing it.
Every time I came to net, Ithought I was losing all the points
to net.
(36:03):
I'm so frustrated.
He goes, no, every time youcome to net, the percentages are
unbelievable.
You're winning the huge numberof points where you come to net.
Of course, next game, nextmatch, Serena goes out.
She comes to net more often.
She's killing it pretty muchall the time she comes to net, she's
winning the point.
And it was just, again, thatsort of affirmation even.
(36:24):
Oh, and then the interviewersays to this guy, this coach Patrick.
So you lied to her.
And of course, you have toimagine this french guy going, was
it a lie?
I don't know.
It's a wonderful interview.
But again, it was, this guytold her he believed in her and she
was a great tennis player and she's
agood net player.
(36:46):
And the next game she went outand believed it herself.
Did a phenomenal job.
So again, whether it's anexternal voice or there's an internal
voice, there's a lot of power in
believing in your own strength and
power and confidence and everything
else.
Yeah, that's a great anecdote.
I want to leave it therebecause I think starting with tennis,
ending with tennis, it's a good little
bow to put on it.
(37:08):
This has been another greattopic of conversation.
We have listener submittedquestions coming up on the next couple
of medical mailbags.
But if you have a questionthat you would like to have us answer
on the medical mailback, I hope that
you'll send it in to us.
You can email me at tridocloud.com, or you can join the
private Facebook group for this podcast.
(37:31):
You can search for Tridocpodcast on that platform, answer
thethree easy questions.
I will grant you.
Admittance and you couldsubmit your questions there or just
join the conversation.
What did you think about this segment?
What do you think about theshow in general?
All of those things are fairgame in that private group.
Juliette, thanks so much forjoining me.
Enjoy the rest of yourvacation and we will chat again on
the next medical mailbag in a couple
of weeks.
(37:53):
Thank you Jeff.
Looking forward to it.
My guest on the podcast todayis Michelle Bond.
Michelle is a kinesiologistwho has been serving clients since
1999 and is at the top of her field
by no other means than hard work,
study and gaining the trust of the
over 1200 clients that she's worked
with.
(38:15):
She holds a master's degree inkinesiology from the University of
Texas with advanced coursework in
sports psychology and cardiovascular
disease.
She's a published researcherin the area of strength and connective
tissue and is a fascia Research society
author and contributor.
Michelle is a NASM that Ibelieve is the north american sports
medicine.
Is that correct, Michelle?
(38:36):
National association of Sports Medicine.
I was so close.
Certified Corrective Academycertified corrective exercise specialist
and holds a level two fascia specialist
certification from the international
team of researchers.
She uses her proprietarymovement assessment and corrective
exercise system to program exercise
forpeople who are truly looking to connect,
ha, no pun intended, with how their
body works and stick to a lifetime
ofhealthy movement.
(39:03):
It's my pleasure to introduceBond, Michelle Bond as my guest today.
Michelle, thanks so much forbeing here on the Tri Dog podcast.
Thank you so much.
I really appreciate thisopportunity you gave me.
Thank you for that wonderful introduction.
I want to begin first justwith this whole notion of fascia.
I think that a lot of mylisteners will probably be familiar
withthe concept or the word, but they
probably don't really know what it
means.
(39:31):
So help my listenersunderstand what fascia is and why
they should care.
That is great idea, becauseout in the mainstream arena there
aresome great definitions and some are
very less weighted, let's say, and
I will just say this to your listeners,
you're going to be on the upside
ofknowledge here.
(39:52):
In fact, there's anomenclature committee right now,
meaning we are continuing to develop
the definition of fascia in real
time.
So what does that mean for allof us?
It means that some disciplinesinclude some structures because they're
anatomists and surgeons, and other
people include other definitions
orphilosophies because they are movement
practitioners or hands on practitioners.
(40:19):
So for us today, we're goingto include things like ligaments,
tendons.
It's this unified web.
I guess I should say tensionalsystem that I'll describe later that
surrounds and penetrates every single
thing.
So that's nerves, vessels,bone, muscle, your organs, everything.
(40:44):
And so the idea is we're goingto include those structures again,
thedefinition, you'll see if you read
research or listen to different practitioners,
there are different definitions based
on the kind of practice they are
involved in.
So for us, as movement peopleor people enjoying exercise and sport,
we have to include this.
(41:12):
This whole idea of, eventhough ligaments and tendons have
adifferent definition to some people,
weare going to include that because
thatis a part of the system.
So, again, it's thisubiquitous system, this tensional
netthrough the entire body.
Yeah, I think of it as aconnective tissue that kind of binds
all the stuff together.
(41:33):
That kind of holds everythingwithin the organism from just being
otherwise a gelatinous mess.
Is that kind of a way ofthinking about it?
Yes, and that's a great point,because there's two main layers,
thesuperficial layer, which is becoming
allthe rage now, but we're not going
todeal with that right now.
We're dealing with the deeper layer.
(41:53):
So there's.
Within the deeper layer,there's this layer that's right under
the superficial layer and some fat
layers that is like this elastic,
as they.
The researchers call it, theelastic bodysuit.
So it is connecting us fromhead to toe with this connection.
Not just connection formovement, like movement and force
transmission.
(42:15):
Okay?
But under that suit, then youhave the layers of fascia that are
invested in the muscle and other
structures.
So the deeper layer, to me, asa movement professional, is divided
into sort of two different layers
inthat deeper layer.
So we can talk about that suitand then what's going on with the
muscle and bone.
(42:38):
All right?
So, as athletes, why do weneed to know about this?
Why do we need to even bother?
Why is it important?
Oh, this is my favorite part.
To start, I did a presentationabout the embryology of fascia.
So it's truly muscle's partner.
And as athletes andrecreational enthusiasts, we think
about muscle and how our bones are
maybe.
(43:03):
But this fascial concept trulyis muscles partner within, let's
say,five or six days in your mother's
womb.
Yes.
We're going all the way back there.
There's this spewing of fineweb, and that is the beginning of
the fascia system.
And guess what?
The muscle tissue grows intothat layer or that direction.
(43:28):
So what I say to people is, ifit's that important, then it's got
to be that important here in our
bodies as adults or young adults
outthere in the world doing exercise.
So it truly is musclespartner, and it's.
And conditioning it separatelyis very important.
(43:50):
Now, you cannot separatemuscle and fascia, but the idea is
to perform certain movements with
certain load in a certain way to
address just the fascia, because
ittruly helps muscle.
It's not muscle that'snecessarily stretching.
It's the fascial component.
(44:12):
And when it's conditioned, ithelps with force transmission.
So let's say you're a runner,you're swimming, you're biking, your
triathlon, and let's say, in your
thigh muscle, the actual spindles
ofmuscle fiber do not reach from one
joint to the other.
What's helping is that fascialnet, that communication within the
muscle.
(44:37):
So it's truly helping force production.
That's why I think it's so important.
Okay, so you talked about howwe have to condition the fascia as
much as we are conditioning the muscle.
What can somebody do in orderto do that?
The thing is, like I said, youcan't separate the two tissues.
You just cannot.
(44:57):
But it's the load or the typeof movement.
So, for example, somethingthat fascia responds to.
I call it different categoriesof movement.
So we have maybe slow, deepfoam rolling for hydration.
We think of.
There's fast foam rolling thatyou would do prior to competition
to wakeup the sensory or proprioception
where you arein space and help with circulation.
(45:25):
Okay.
Deeper, slow rolling withdirectional changes is for hydration.
Okay, that's.
People are familiar with foam rolling.
And I can answer morequestions about that if you want
to,but types of movement.
So let's say I want toincrease the elastic capability of
my fascia.
Something you could do islight hopping.
(45:46):
People will say, but I'm usingmy muscle.
I'm still using my muscle.
Yes, you are using your muscle.
Okay.
But the idea is to get in tunewith what this collagenous tissue
cando for this spring like motion.
So there's certain categoriesof movement, whether it's sensory
refinement, slowing movement down
this spring like quality, with different
exercises you can do, there's slow
directional changes.
(46:14):
So, for example, instead ofjust standing in a calf stretch like
we do for 30 to 40 seconds, there's
other techniques to embellish this
tissue, whether it's holding at the
end range of motion and doing slight
pulsing movements.
There's different kind ofreceptors in the fascia.
So you want to do movementsthat stimulate all these kinds of
receptors.
(46:38):
When you're stretching, forexample, instead of just one muscle,
wewant to stretch in long muscle chains.
We want to perform fluidmovements that are elegant.
Now, you're wondering, wherecan I get all this information?
Hopefully, by the end ofAugust, I will have my fascial program
done and ready for you to take a
look at, because, again, you can't
separate the tissue.
(47:00):
But I just finished doing aten week mentorship with some of
the researchers, and there's different
categories of movement that embellish
andaccentuate how this, this tissue
canoperate optimally.
So while phone rolling andstatic stretching and warming up
is good, there are some other categories
of movement that can be performed,
andthey don't take a lot of time.
(47:24):
That's the beauty of it.
So it sounds to me, like yousaid, you can't separate muscle from
the fascia.
You can't separate fascia fromthe muscle, but you can accentuate
thebenefits to the fascia by doing a
different kind of movement, different
kind of activity that is going to
accentuate the benefits to the fascia,
even though you're still using the
muscle.
(47:47):
And I heard you mentionhopping, and I've heard a couple
ofdifferent times, people advocating
thingslike jump rope, that jumping rope
isa really good activity that not only
benefits the muscles, but also is
one of these activities that, from
listening to you, is, I'm guessing,
couldbe one of those things that could
benefit tendons and ligaments and
also some of these fascial components.
(48:10):
Be an accurate assessment?
Absolutely.
It's just, the thing is, it'sincreasing load over time.
So I just, this is so perfect timing.
I finished this mentorshipbecause we were talking about hopping
or jumping rope.
When you get to a point whereyou start feeling your calf muscle,
stop, because now you're using muscle
and not the recoil property of the
fascia.
(48:32):
So that means don't jump ropefor half an hour, do it for literally
30seconds or a minute, and work your
way up to this place where you can
be light and springy.
I once did this on atreadmill, training for a marathon
whereI got my brain into my Achilles tendon
and my calf muscle, and I said, stop
contracting, be light and springy.
(48:56):
And the only way that you canpractice that is to literally do
that thing.
So it's something that takespractice, but the muscle, when walking,
like for walking, running a little
bit, but walking especially, you're
using more of the elastic properties
ofthe fascia, not so much the muscle
contraction.
(49:16):
So this is an idea you can use?
Yeah, no, I got you.
And then what about for recovery?
You mentioned that it'simportant to help the fascia.
Just the way we do with muscles.
A massage, for example, is,I'm assuming, one of those things
thatyou can do.
What are things that you coulddo to accentuate recovery of the
fascia after.
(49:39):
A hard effort, hands ontherapy will always be number one,
especially from somebody who understands
the delicate layers of the superficial
fascia and deep fascia.
A lot of times, people willsay, I'm so sore.
Dig in.
Oh, the research is showing,no, don't dig in.
(50:01):
Hands again.
Hands on therapy, whether it'smassage or other.
I will also be an advocate foracupuncture, because one of the main
researchers who works at the Harvard
Alternative Medical School there,
she's not only MD, but she's an acupuncturist.
And she did some fabulousresearch showing that when the acupuncture
needle is in, the fascia jumps and
grabs onto the needle.
(50:26):
Pretty cool.
So that is this circulatory effect.
If you do not have access tothat, then the next best thing would
be tools like a foam roller.
If you're not able to get onthe ground, a lot of times you can
use, I use a spiky massage ball against
the wall with some of my clients,
orthey're on a table and they have
their leg up on a table using the
ball.
(50:52):
But for the sake of discussionhere, we'll talk about the foam roller.
And that's when I mentionedearlier, was the.
This deeper, slow phone rolling.
It's, I'm going to say my veryfamous line, everyone knows, or you'll
know now, annoyingly slow.
So if you're foam rolling thecalf, let's just take that for an
example.
(51:12):
From the ankle towards theknee, not under the knee, but just
the belly of the calf.
What you're trying to do is goone direction, especially there,
because there's one way valves, and
we just want to go one way.
And you're literally goingsuper slow rolling left to right,
andthat is it.
You're going to do that onlyone time and leave maybe two to three
days in between that body part.
(51:36):
Because what we're finding isthat type of pressure is very similar
to hands on therapy.
And we found in the lab thatthere's collagen degradation, meaning
it's going away.
The collagen is being degradedin the body, and in that area, it
needs a chance to build that up back
up.
So that would be a very directway to recover in terms of direct
input through pressure.
(52:06):
Other recovery would be, asyou probably always tell your clients
as well, drinking plenty of good,
clean water, actual rest.
Or it could be, if you arereally sore because you overloaded
it,which I can talk about.
Eccentric training and whatthat does to fascia.
Don't sit all day long.
(52:28):
Try to just move.
My first marathon was a dare.
Okay.
I trained one week.
That's it.
I did all 26 miles.
I could only walk 1.1 mile anhour on the treadmill for five days,
but I didn't sit down.
That's what your fascia wants.
Unless you are severelyinjured and the doctor says, sit,
but generally speaking, do not sit.
(52:53):
This is a huge thing for recovery.
You gave me a lot to thinkabout there, and it all got jammed
inmy frontal lobe trying to decide
howto respond.
So the foam rolling.
I think we all know that kindof discomfort from the foam roller,
andyou're giving us license to not do
it every day, which I think we are
all going to be very happy about.
(53:19):
So only to do it once everytwo to three days, because that discomfort
we're feeling is genuine.
The foam roller is not themost comfortable thing to be doing,
and there's a reason for that.
I'm getting the sense it'sbecause we're actually causing some
almost damage, if you will, to the
fascia, which is necessary for rebuilding
it to be stronger.
(53:40):
Is that an accurate kind ofstatement, actually?
What sort of.
If you're training too hard,the fascia is going to respond in
a negative way, which means it's
natural to overtrain or try something
toosoon in loading, let's just say.
But the foam rolling, I'm gladyou brought that up.
The foam rolling shouldn't be painful.
(54:02):
If it is, you got to eitherlighten up or get a different roller.
Or if you only have a superhard roller, put a towel.
This is what is going on.
If you are in pain when you'rerolling, what's going to happen is
some of those receptors that deal
with pain are going to get called
oninto action.
We do not want to ask them tobe in pain all the time.
(54:23):
We want to suppress that nose deception.
We need to suppress that.
We don't want to knock on its door.
So phone rolling.
When I first started doingthat with people in 2004, people
wereturning purple, and we thought, oh,
this is great.
It's not.
It needs to be comfortable.
Even the slower rolling.
(54:44):
If you come upon an area thatis particularly painful, you would
pause and then maybe do a little
shearing motion, like back and forth.
I call it the cheese grater.
But, yeah, I'm glad youbrought that up.
We do not want excessive, uncomfortable.
Yeah, the cheese graterdoesn't sound any more comfortable
than thefoam roller.
I know what you mean, but,yeah, I don't know anybody who thinks
the foam roller is particularly a
comfortable implement.
(55:11):
But it's an interesting ideato do it in a way that makes it more
comfortable.
And then what else can we doto try and maintain a healthy fascia?
You've mentioned some ways tostrengthen it, to make it more robust,
to help it recover.
You mentioned drinkingadequate amounts of water.
Is there anything else that wecould do to try and encourage a healthy
fascia?
Because again, I really, thisthought of how it works in conjunction
withour muscles, and I know for myself
Idefinitely can think of the tendon
tothe ligament, to the muscle, to the
fascia within the muscle, as all
one big unit.
(55:47):
We think that we're trainingour muscles when, of course, we're
training that entire unit together
allat once.
But when we're actuallytraining for endurance and consuming
oxygen and dealing with energy, that's
truly the muscle cells.
But we need to really considerways to make the fascia healthier.
So what are things that wecould do just on a day to day basis
besides just better nutrition and
hydration?
(56:13):
Is there anything that we canbe thinking about on a day to day
basis to try and encourage just an
overall improvement in our fascial
health?
Yes.
First, think about it.
Look at a book, look at sometype of picture about it, and get
it in your mind of what it really
is.
(56:34):
And then understand that it'sthinking on your behalf 24/7 so every
position you're in on a long airplane
flight, you will get up, try to sit
in the aisle.
Okay.
What happens is when we sittoo long, the collagen fibers actually
start to go.
This person is in this position.
(56:56):
We need to support it.
That's why when you get up outof a chair, out of.
If you've been in a meeting ora long movie or whatever, for 3 hours,
you feel creaky, maybe.
And so when you condition yourfascia, you'll feel less creaky getting
out of these long situations.
So your job, besides doing allthis other stuff I mentioned, is
think about it.
(57:21):
It is thinking on your behalf24/7 its output is only as good as
its input.
So if you're carrying abackpack, if you're carrying a child,
if you're pushing groceries, if you're
filling a gas tank, if whatever it
is, your fascia is thinking about
this posture.
Just also try to be moreelegant in your everyday life.
(57:42):
I know on social media I havea few posts of me dancing in the
kitchen.
Rather than clumping to therefrigerator and clumping over here,
I put myself, let me print over to
the refrigerator and then print sounds
silly.
I'm gonna be 55 in a few days,and I'm telling you, I feel 30 years
younger.
(58:04):
I'm not kidding.
I feel springy in my body suit.
All of these researchers arewell into their sixties and some
intheir seventies, and they can do
way more than I can.
So it's about thinking,visualizing this springy bodysuit.
Even if you don't think you'reelegant in moving in everyday life,
just think it and move that way.
(58:29):
Whether it's reaching to turnon a light instead of going, ah,
turn on the light.
Reach slowly maybe, and turnon the light maybe just once a day.
It's the thought.
First, it's believing in yourself.
Second, you can do this.
And third, it's everythingthat you do all day long because
it'salways thinking.
(58:51):
So it's really beingintentional with movement.
It's being intentional withmovement, avoiding being static for
long periods of time.
You mentioned try not to sitfor too long.
All of that resonates with me,and all of that makes a lot of sense,
especially as we get older.
I think we all feel that thelonger we stay seated, that, like
you said, the creakiness as we get
up.
(59:13):
And I really like that idea oftrying to be more elegant in our
movements.
I know also as we get older,when sudden movements tend to have
negative consequences much more frequently.
And I think if you can beintentional about your movements,
youprobably go a long way towards avoiding
those kinds of adverse effects or
adverse kinds of unintentional kinds
of things.
(59:36):
Being intentional in thoughtand intentional and purpose probably
goes a long way towards helping all
of this and helping you be able to
stay healthy and be able to continue
todo the things that we love and keep
moving.
And as you said, be youthful,both in body and mind.
Yes, it's just try differenttypes of movements.
(59:57):
Don't.
Like I said, the kitchendancing thing everybody loved, or
getting in the car, you're getting
init slowly, reaching for the door.
It makes a difference.
Take a dance class.
That's what I tell all triathletes.
Once in a while, move in allthe directions and stay springy.
We hear a lot about yoga, andI'm curious on your opinion of yoga.
(01:00:19):
Is yoga a positive thing orpotentially negative?
I personally, I'm agnostic.
I know a lot of people love yoga.
I have not.
I just don't.
My own time limitations haveprevented me from being able to incorporate
it.
But I have given a lot ofthought to trying to get it involved,
especially this office season that's
going to come up in the fall.
(01:00:40):
I don't want to think aboutthe fall.
I'm enjoying the summer.
But anyways.
But anyways, what are yourthoughts about yoga as a means of
supporting fascial health?
Yoga has been included veryoften in all of our research papers
and textbooks.
Now, in my interpretation ofyoga is there's several kinds of
yoga.
(01:01:03):
Some is very fast paced, whichis great because it's just moving
youin different positions.
You should do it at your paceand at your depth of range of motion.
But if we're going to talkabout what a lot of people think
ofslow melting yoga, it depends on
the person.
(01:01:25):
If we think about stretchingor holding poses, we have to think
about while there's a lot of research
about yoga and where it actually
comesfrom as a discipline, not just physically,
but mentally, and some spiritually,
andanytime you hold a pose or stretch,
you're still inputting to the body.
(01:01:45):
So if you're stretching anarea that shouldn't be stretched,
thenwhat's happening is you're taking
awaythat optimal push and pull.
I forgot to mention thatalready, biotensegrity, it's this
optimal push and pull in the body.
So if you become too supple inone area, that might restrict how
much strength you can build, either
inthat area or another area.
(01:02:08):
So I think if you're gettinginto slow, melty stretches, go in
with the idea that you're going to
go into it conservatively.
And for people that do it thatare already really bendy, I would
tryto do those poses for more clearing
themental space and hold a stretch if
we were going to categorize the load.
(01:02:33):
I'm working on that right nowwith the research project.
Is categorizing the load at athree or four on the stretch scale
out of ten.
So you're feeling it, but not really.
The only way to really knowwhat you should be stretching is
to have a biomechanical assessment.
That's something I do.
So yoga, as far as beingaround other people and getting in
different positions of the body,
Ithink is great.
(01:03:00):
Just don't overdo it and don'tdo anything that causes discomfort.
And if you're already bendy,be aware of that.
Just understand you don't wantto get extra bendy.
The epitome of flexibility isnot being able to do the splits or
have seated with your legs wide and
your whole chest can go to the floor.
That's great.
(01:03:21):
But that's not the epitome of,say, we all have to attain that to
be great athletes.
That's not true.
All right, I think that's aperfect place to close as opposed
tobeing open.
As you mentioned, MichelleBond is a kinesiologist who specializes
inthe research and assessment of connective
tissue, specifically the fascia,
andtalks, or has her own proprietary
movementassessment and corrective exercise
system that she works with both athletes
and non athletes.
(01:03:51):
And I am going to put links towhere you could find Michelle and
all of the things that she has done
in this vein and you'll be able to
find that in the show notes Michelle
Bond thank you so much for joining
meon the Tridar podcast today for this
very interesting and I think enlightening
conversation.
Thank you so much.
I really appreciate it.
(01:04:15):
What's up everybody?
My name is Joe Wilson and I'ma proud supporter of the Tri Dark
podcast.
The Tri Dark podcast isproduced and edited by Jeff Sankoff,
oneof my good friends, along with his
amazing interns, Cosette Rhodes and
Nina Takashima.
You can find the show notesfor everything discussed on the show
today, as well as the archives of
previous episodes at www.trythpodcast.com.
(01:04:38):
do you have any questionsabout any of the issues discussed
on thisepisode or do you have a question
forconsideration to be answered on a
future episode?
Send Jeff an email at try docloud.com.
if you are interested incoaching services, you should really
reach out to jeff@tridoccoaching.com
or livesfourcoaching.com where you can find
a lot of information about Jeff and
the services that he provides.
(01:05:03):
You can also follow Jeff onthe Tri Dark podcast Facebook page,
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And don't forget to join theTridark podcast private Facebook
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Search for it and request tojoin today.
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show whenever you download it.
(01:05:25):
And of course, there's alwaysthe option of becoming a supporter@patreon.com.
the music heard at thebeginning and the end of the show
isradio by empty hours and is used
with permission.
This song and many others likeit can be found at www.reverbnation.com,
where I hopethat you will visit and give a small,
independent fans a chance.
(01:05:49):
The Tridark podcast will beback soon with another medical question
and answer it in another interview
withsomeone in the world of multisport.
Until then, train hard, train healthy.
Now, you cannot separatemuscle and fascia, but the idea is
to perform certain movements with
certain load in a certain way to
address just the fascia, because
ittruly helps muscle.
It's not muscle that'snecessarily stretching, it's the
fascial component.
(00:21):
And when it's conditioned, ithelps with force transmission.
Hello and welcome to theOctober 4, 2024 edition of the Tri
Dock podcast.
I'm your host, Jeff Sankoff,the Tri doc, an emergency physician,
triathlon coach, and multiple Ironman
finisher coming to you as always
frombeautiful, sunny Denver, Colorado.
(00:48):
Since the last episode of thisprogram published, we have seen in
a very short time the women's Ironman
world championship raced in Nice,
France, and most recently the latest
of the t 100 events that was held
inIbiza, Spain.
Now, both of those events beardiscussion, as does some other interesting
stories that have taken place in
our multi sport world.
(01:09):
However, what I really want totalk about in the few minutes that
Ihave before I launch into the substance
of this program is the other major
event that took place in Europe on
Sunday.
Because I believe, not just asan avid fan of cycling, but as a
student of sports history as well,
that it was the UCI mens road race
for the world championship that arguably
will be the thing that will have
themost significant impact on this and
on generations to come.
(01:35):
Now, if you've been under arock for the last few days and have
not heard about the incredible 100
kilometer attack of 26 year old slovenian
rider Tade Pugatcha, including a
heretofore unheard of 50 1 km solo
ride at the front to victory, then
Iurge you, go read about it.
Or better yet, find a video onYouTube and you can watch it.
(01:57):
But even if you somehow missedit, I know many of you will already
bewell versed in his incredible rise.
But lets take a step back justfor a second in order to truly appreciate
the brilliance of what this guy has
done to this point.
Because quite frankly, we arewitnessing something really, really
special.
Tadi Pugachas story isnt justabout winning, its also about how
he wins, the sheer audacity and dominance
he brings to the sport.
(02:24):
His 2020 Tour de Francevictory at just 21 years of age is
already legendary.
That iconic stage 20 timetrial on laden la planche des belle
filles wasnt just a coup.
It was a seismic moment in cycling.
Think about it.
Heres this young, relativelyunknown rider in his second grand
Tour event ever, flipping the entire
race on its head, taking the yellow
jersey from Primus Roglic in one
ofthe most dramatic finishes in Tour
history.
(02:52):
And it wasnt just that he won,its how he destroyed the rest of
the field and expectations.
On that day.
He didnt just inch Roglic outby a handful of seconds.
He blew the competition away.
It was the kind of performancethat transcends the sport and enters
into cycling folklore.
And if you thought that 2020was just a flash in the pan, Pugacha
quickly proved he wasnt done.
(03:16):
In 2021, he returned evenstronger, becoming only the youngest
rider since the 1970s to win back
toback Tour de France titles.
His ride was nothing short ofa masterclass that year, especially
hisbrutal attacks in the mountains.
But what makes Pugacha trulyremarkable is his versatility.
Its not uncommon to seedominant climbers, strong time trialists
or fast sprinters, but to see someone
excel in all of those aspects, thats
really rare.
(03:44):
Pugacha is the ultimate all rounder.
He can dance up the steepestmountains with the best of the climbers,
grind out power in time trials like
a specialist, and still punch hard
in classic style races.
Hes won the Tour de Franceagain this past year in 24 in unbelievable
style with out competition.
Hes won some of the monumentslike Liege, Bastogne Liege, the Tour
of Flanders and more.
(04:09):
And lets not forget hisvictory at the 2021 Strade Bianchi,
where he attacked solo 50 km from
the finish and did so, making it
look effortless.
Beyond his versatility, itshis racing mentality that stands
out.
Pugacha doesnt ridedefensively or play it safe.
Like so many GC contenders, heraces to win from the front, launching
attacks that others would hesitate
to make.
(04:33):
Rider who createsopportunities, not one who waits
forthem to come.
His audacious style hasreignited the passion for aggressive
racing at the highest level.
And crucially, he races withan instinct that's almost impossible
to coach.
He reads the race perfectly,knows exactly when to make his move,
and when he goes, there's little
anyone can do to stop him.
(04:55):
For fans like me, it's thisblend of tactical brilliance, physical
dominance and fearless racing that
has made a pugacha a rider.
I can't take my eyes off.
And on top of it, his demeanorof youthful exuberance and joy, of
good sportsmanship when he doesn't
win,and even better sportsmanship than
he does, he brings an old school
flairto a sport that's increasingly dominated
by numbers, wattage and marginal
gains.
(05:20):
And there's somethingrefreshing about a rider who races
oninstinct and guts, even as he rides
with the legs of a generational talent.
With that little tuft of hairsticking out from his helmet.
In many ways, Pugacha is athrowback to the legends of cycling,
riders who could win any race on
any terrain.
But with the cutting edgeconditioning and preparation of modern
sport, we saw that amplified this
past weekend when he became the first
rider in almost 40 years to win cycling's
triple crown, the Giro d'Italia,
the Tourde France, and the world championships,
all inone season.
(05:54):
And the scary part?
He's still only in his mid twenties.
The dominance we've seen sofar could just be the beginning.
So whether you're a hardcorefan of the sport or a newcomer, it's
impossible to ignore what Tadi Pugacha
is doing.
He's not just winning races,he's redefining what's possible in
modern cycling.
We're lucky to witness hiscareer in real time.
(06:15):
In most circumstances, no onereally knows when they are in the
presence of a mozart or a Picasso
untillong after they are gone.
If you are still not followingthe sport of cycling, I urge you
todo so and bear witness to a talent
ofthat kind of caliber while you still
can and sit back and just Marvel
and enjoy.
(06:35):
On the show today, JulietHockman and I are going to discuss
apopular reel thats been making the
rounds on social media for a little
while now.
Its a video of thecommencement speech that was given
byRoger Federer at Dartmouth College
acouple of years ago, and in it he
speaks rather eloquently on the power
of positive thinking to affect performance
in sport.
On the medical mailbag, wewill look at the science that supports
this idea and discuss how we use
itas athletes and as coaches to get
the best from ourselves and from
those who we coach.
(07:04):
That's coming up in just acouple of minutes.
Later, I'm joined bykinesiologist Michel Bond.
Michel has done a lot ofresearch into how to help athletes
byleveraging an understanding of how
to improve fascial connections.
We are going to discuss whatthe fascia is, why it's important,
and howyou can use what she has learned
toimprove your own injury resilience
and recovery.
(07:26):
And that's going to be comingup in just a short while.
Before all of that, I want totake a moment to thank again all
ofmy Patreon supporters of this podcast
who have decided that for about the
price of a cup of coffee per month,
they could sign up to support this
program and in doing so, get access
tobonus interviews and other segments
thatcome out about every month or so.
The next of those bonusepisodes will be released next week
and will feature a detailed medical
segment on some new research that
shows how much efficiency in cycling
isunaffected by aging.
(07:56):
This is a surprising findingand has some important implications
for allof us as we train and race into our
older age groups.
That bonus episode and otherslike it are available on a private
feedfor all of my subscribers.
Plus, for north americansubscribers who sign up at the ten
dollar per month level of support,
theyreceive a special thank you gift
inthe form of a Boco Tridoc podcast
running hat.
(08:18):
So visit my Patreon sitetoday@patreon.com tridoc podcast
andbecome a supporter so that you too
can get access to these bonus episodes.
And maybe the cool gift as well.
And as always, thanks so muchin advance just for considering.
It'S time again for themedical mailbag, which means I'm
joined by my friend and colleague,
Juliette Hockman.
(08:41):
Juliet is traveling.
You're in Washington, DC, right?
I am.
I'm here in DC visiting my family.
Yes.
So from one Washington to the other.
And that's right, last time wewere about to be.
That's right.
Just a week ago I was inWashington state with you.
Yeah, exactly.
Before we get to the subjectat hand, I do want to do some housekeeping.
(09:02):
In the last episode, Iinterviewed Fiona Moriarty and we
were discussing the location of the
2024 world championships for the
70.3 distance.
I was quite adamant, havingvisited New Zealand previously, my
brother, having lived in New Zealand,
that the location for this year's
world championships is Taupo, New
Zealand.
(09:25):
She had said it was taup, new Zealand.
I had never heard it said thatway, and I was quite sure assured
of myself.
I'm never.
Yeah, exactly.
Longtime listener friend ofboth of our, Stephanie van Beber
reached out to me and said that she
too, thought it might be Topah.
(09:46):
And she said every once in awhile I might be wrong.
And I said, no, not possible.
But I decided to reach out toan expert.
So here, have a listen.
This is my conversation withNew Zealand resident and Akiwi, who's
actually also in Washington, DC right
now.
Nikki Sweetbrunna.
Nikki, how do you pronouncethe name of the city or town where
the 70.3 world championships are
going to be held this december in
New Zealand?
(10:17):
So you are both right.
The correct pronunciation is topaw.
And while I might not think Ihave an accent, apparently I do.
The best way to explain how topronounce it is to say to, as in
toe on your feet.
And paw, as in paw of a cat.
So if you can say taup, you'repretty much fang on how the local
mori pronounce it.
(10:43):
Some of us, like myself and myfamily, we call it Taupo.
But no one is going to greetyou either way you say it.
So when I was there, I neverheard Taup.
That was something brand newto me when Fiona mentioned it during
our interview.
And in all of the years thatI've been referring to the places
Ivisited in New Zealand, I would always
say Taupo is Taupo how you and other
people in New Zealand will refer
to it.
(11:10):
And is that considered an affront?
Do the Maori get or it's not okay?
Absolutely not.
So whether you want to call itTaupo, which I call it Taupo, or
you want to call it taup, every way
you feel most comfortable is absolutely
fine.
There are a lot of place nameswithin New Zealand where you can
say them both way.
(11:32):
And I think probably over thelast few years, a lot more people
aregetting more comfortable pronouncing
itprobably the correct way.
But as I say, no one is goingto look at you twice.
And probably the majority ofpeople still call it helper.
So there you have it.
We're both right.
But I definitely owe Fiona an apology.
I'm going to apologize again, Fiona.
(11:54):
I'm so sorry.
But also, I'm going to sendher an email to make sure that she
hears.
And if I was overly stridentin my belief in how it should be
said, we have a really interesting
subject today.
The subject of the medicalmailbag is a Instagram reel that
Isaw, actually.
It's funny because I saw itafter pretty much everybody else
did.
(12:16):
And I sent it to you at thetime, and I thought, wow, what a
great subject for a medical mailbag.
And you agreed that you saidyou'd seen it.
And that Instagram reel isprobably something everybody who
islistening to this has seen.
It was the video of RogerFederer giving the commencement speech
at Dartmouth.
Was it 2022?
Do you remember what year it was?
I think it was more recentlythan that because we knew some people
in that class.
(12:38):
So I want to say it was 2023.
Okay.
It was within the last coupleof years, Roger Federer was giving
thecommencement address, and he spoke
just really beautifully about the
power of positive thinking in its
ability to influence performance
in sport,but also in how it can be adapted
toplay a role in your everyday life
and in your ability to succeed.
(13:03):
And I'm not going to play thewhole thing here, but I do want to
play what I think is a really important
segment and what really got us talking.
So have a listen to it here.
In tennis, perfection is impossible.
In the 1526 singles matches Iplayed in my career, I won almost
80%of those matches.
(13:24):
Now, I have a question for you.
What percentage of points doyou think I won in those matches?
Only 54%.
In other words, even topranked tennis players win barely
morethan half of the points they play.
When you lose every secondpoint on average, you learn not to
dwell on every shot.
(13:47):
You teach yourself to think,okay, I double faulted.
It's only a point.
Okay, I came to the net and Igot past again.
It's only a point.
Even a great shot, an overheadbackhand smash that ends up on ESPN's
top ten playlist, that, too, is just
a point.
So here's why I'm telling you this.
When you're playing a point,it has to be the most important thing
in the world.
(14:09):
And it is.
But when it's behind you, it'sbehind you.
This mindset is really crucialbecause it frees you to fully commit
to the next point and the next point
after that with intensity, clarity
and focus.
The truth is, whatever gameyou play in life, sometimes you're
going to lose a point, a match, a
season, a job.
(14:34):
It's a rollercoaster with manyups and downs.
And it's natural when you'redown, to doubt yourself and to feel
sorry for yourself.
And by the way, your opponentshave self doubt, too.
Don't ever forget that.
But negative energy is wasted energy.
So that's really the crux of it.
This idea, I've always.
(14:54):
When I first heard him speakand he talked about this notion that
he only won 54% of his points.
I know.
Isn't that incredible?
Just blew me away.
And this idea that thedifference between the top players
andthe players who aren't at the top
is just their whole mental attitude,
their ability to just play every
point like it's the most important
pointof their career.
(15:15):
But the second it'soverdeveloped, you have to move on.
You have to be able todispense with failure and move on
with positive thinking to the next
point, no matter what just happened
right now.
He referenced this idea thatthere was a study, and I couldn't
find it.
Neither could Cosette Rhodes,who was the intern who worked on
this segment.
(15:37):
We were unable to find a studythat he was referencing.
And there's another gentlemanwho is on Instagram who also famously
quotes the study, and he actually
talksabout how he did the study.
He's a psychologist, he's apublic speaker, he does a lot of
work with athletes.
And he talks about this studyin South Florida on professional
tennisplayers in the top 25.
(15:57):
We cannot find a study, andthat doesn't mean it wasn't done,
just means it wasn't published in
the peer reviewed literature.
It also just means I can'tcomment on it.
But I find myself questioning,at least with tennis players, how
much positive thinking can really
influence that.
If tennis player like RogerFederer is only going to win 54%
ofhis points in order to win, have
acareer like he did, what about the
bad boys like John McEnroe?
(16:24):
What about Jimmy Connors?
Those guys were notorious forfreaking out after losing points.
They did it, I think, not somuch because they had a bad attitude,
butbecause they were probably trying
toinfluence the guy on the other side
of the court, I'm guessing.
But hang on.
I think that the power of whatFederer was saying in the study that
he or the so called study that he
was referencing wasn't so much the
outward behavior that was demonstrated
aftera poor point or after losing a point.
(16:53):
It was the internal ability toabsolutely leave it behind and move
on to the next point as the most
important point in the game.
So if you lost a point,instead of dwelling on it and oh
my gosh, I suck, I'm a bad player,
Ishould have gotten that one.
I failed.
It's more, give me the next one.
(17:14):
I'm powerful, I'm strong, I'msmart, I'm a great player, I'm going
to kill the next one.
And I think that and whetheror not you agree with sort of McEnroe's
poor behavior on the courts, he may
have been doing that internally.
In fact, he probably was.
Well, I 100% think there'ssomething to what he's saying.
I guess what I'm pushing backwith a little bit is that.
(17:37):
I'll give you an example.
I found some evidence.
I did find one study on tennisplayers, and this study on tennis
players said that mental techniques
andpositive thinking actually had an
impact on the ability of players
to gettheir first serve in.
So when you gave players asort of, you gave them coaching for
positive thinking and they implemented
thatpositive thinking, their first serve
percentage went up.
(18:07):
And I thought that was really interesting.
What else can get your firstserve percentage up is lowering the
serve velocity.
If somebody hits the ball lesshard, they can get their first serve
percentage 100%, but they're going
toget blown out.
Right.
They're going to lose every point.
So great.
They're very positive.
They're going to get a greatserve percentage, but that doesn't
necessarily translate to winning
allthe points.
(18:32):
There is definitely the factthat Federer, sure, he's positive
mindset.
He's able to deal with hisfailure, move to the next point,
buthe's still, still, that he's still
Roger Federer.
I think that there's probablymore to the fact that he's Roger
Federer and that the mindset aspect
ofit maybe took him to that other level.
I think that his message,though, going away from tennis player,
his message of being able to look
atfailure as something not to beat
yourself down on, but rather to grow
from and to learn from and also this
idea to just leave it behind you
and immediately move on to the next
thing in a positive mindset.
(19:11):
That to me is something thatwe can all learn from, not just in
sport, but in life.
No, 100%.
And it's interesting.
You and I just came off thiswonderful weekend where we had, we
raced ourselves and we also had 22
of our athletes there.
And one of the things that Iwill often counsel athletes on before
a big race, particularly if it's
their a race and particularly if
they're new to racing with lots and
lots of people, and it's a much bigger
show.
(19:37):
If you go to an Ironman race,for example, or a challenge race,
it's a much bigger show than a local
race is that something will go wrong.
Right.
It's almost inevitable that insuch a complex day as a triathlon,
to be along course triathlon, something
will go wrong.
And my advice is identify whatthe problem is, fix the problem and
move on.
(20:00):
It's not going to ruin your day.
It's not going to.
Don't dwell on the problem,don't worry about it.
Don't keep repeating the problem.
Just move on.
Move completely on from it andto whatever the next thing is, task
is that you have to do.
And because it's so easy toget derailed mentally and emotionally,
particularly if you're newer to the
sport, right.
(20:20):
You think, oh, there goes thewhole day and I'm terrible.
And you just go down therabbit hole.
The ability to recover whenall of these hiccups happen, which
they happen multiple times over a
race.
And we see that with theprofessionals, too, in our sport.
Professionals for athletes as well.
Yeah, I couldn't agree more.
I think as a coach, one of thethings that I try to imbue my athletes
with is that kind of adaptability
and thatkind of attitude of, you know, I've
said it on this podcast many times,
focus on the things you can control.
(20:48):
Be prepared for all thedifferent eventualities that can
come up.
And if they do come up, thenyou're ready to go.
You've got your plan, and it'snot as much of a surprise or a stress,
but then also whatever it is, a flat
tire is the most common thing, right?
You get a flat on the bike, fine.
You just deal with thatproblem, you fix it, and then you
forget about it.
(21:08):
Because the most commonmistake I think athletes make is
they think about all the time they
lost.
Oh, they exaggerate the time.
They think, oh, it took me 20minutes to fix that flat when in
reality, it was maybe five.
And then they go out on thebike and they blow themselves up
trying to make up that 20 minutes
time.
And I made that mistake as anewer athlete and recognized.
(21:30):
And so the next time I got aflat, I was like, no, that's time
lost.
I can't make up for it.
I need to continue executingthe plan that I was on and just that
I can't do anything about what's
inthe past, but I can control how I
react and how I move forward.
And that's a good example ofhow I had a failure, because something
came up and I didn't respond well
toit, and I blew myself up and didn't
have a good race.
(21:51):
And so I.
Instead of taking that failureas a sign that, oh, I'm terrible
and Ican't do this sport, instead, I looked
back at it, and I really took something
from it.
I speak of adam all the time.
I'm sorry.
Constantly bringing him up,but I tell adam, after every single
race, there's always something you
can find in every single race that
you could have done better.
No matter if it's your prrace, no matter what it is, there's
always something.
(22:14):
Find something in the racethat you think that you could have
done better from.
Don't dwell in it, but learnfrom it.
And then look for.
And then in a race where youdon't think it went, it's not your
favorite race, there's always something
positive you can find.
So I tell them, find thepositive thing, dwell on that, find
the negative thing, learn from that,
and move forward.
And I try to tell my athletesall the same kinds of things.
(22:37):
I found some evidence to showthat this positive thinking actually
works, and I think it's worth discussing
just briefly.
One of the studies comes outof iranian taekwondo athletes, which
is an interesting subset of athletes.
Unfortunately, its a verysmall study, but the findings were
pretty interesting.
And basically, the takeawaysfrom this study was pretty simple.
It was that of many differenttraits that they looked at trying
toimbue these athletes with optimism
wasthe only one significantly associated
withvo two peak and heart rate max.
(23:10):
They could actually see vo twopeak go up and heart rate max go
up, and social skills and control
werecorrelated with relative peak power.
So if you improved athletesability to have good social lives,
andlet's face it, triathletes are very
social people and being able to control
their circumstances.
So focusing on the things youcan control, like I just said.
(23:32):
So now, very small study, onlyten athletes in the study.
So it's hard to really knowwhat to take out of it.
But I think it's a reallyinteresting finding that again, as
you and I have both talked about,
yourmental outlook as you go into competition,
as you go into training is so important.
I've talked about my own experiences.
You've talked about yours.
Tell us about what one of thesort of big things you took away.
(23:54):
I know you've talked a lotabout your experience as a rower
andthe importance of the boathouse.
What are some of the thingsthat the boathouse gave you for being
able to cope with setbacks and being
able to focus on positivity?
The thing that we've saidseveral times already is just understand
what you can control and what you
can't control, and the things you
can control.
(24:20):
Work on those elements thevery best you can.
So that when you go into,whether it's a rowing race or a triathlon,
you feel that you are as best possible
prepared as you can be for that day,
for that event, on that day, right.
And what I tell my athletes,and I constantly tell myself, and
we've talked about this as well,
isyou want to be standing in that swim
shoe, really believing in your heart
of hearts that you've done everything
youpossibly could to get there right,
tobe there healthy, and to be there
fast and fit and everything else,
given whatever life was throwing
at youin the preceding six months.
(24:53):
And then you want to get tothe finish line believing that you
did absolutely everything you could
in the previous whatever it is, four
and a half, five and a half, six
and a half hours to execute the very
best race you could, given the circumstances
that the day gave you.
And I think we can both talkabout our experiences.
Last Sunday, you came burningby me with 1 mile to know on that
run and I knew you were giving it
everything you could so that you
could feel really satisfied as you
came across the finish line.
(25:21):
You were as far up that podiumas you could be.
Similar to me.
I had a very similarexperience, and we both made mistakes
during the race.
My mistake, I actually took awrong turn on the ride.
I was riding completely by myself.
There wasn't anybody around me.
Incredibly lonely out there.
I lost on space, and I turnedright when I should have gone straight.
And so for about 10 seconds,I'm like, wow, juliette, that was
aridiculously stupid thing to do.
(25:43):
Wake up.
Come on.
I think I even yelled at myself.
Come on, get with me.
Got myself back on course, letmyself ride hard for about the time
I'd lost, which is probably 20 seconds,
and then settled back in and finished
the race.
It's having the confidencethat things will go wrong, and you
can handle them when they go wrong.
(26:04):
And solving the problem whenyou're in it and just not letting
it rock.
Your day, that's one of thethings I've.
That's one of the things I'velearned from you, that.
That idea of making sure whenyou show up on the start that you
feel satisfied that you did everything
youcould have.
And that was something that,for a long time, I would show up
on start lines just.
(26:26):
And I don't do that anymore now.
I don't miss workouts.
If I miss a workout, it'sbecause, like, I did this week or
where I have Covid and I just physically
was unable to do a workout.
But otherwise, I will do whatI have to make sure that I get my
workouts in and without impact.
I do what I need to make sure.
When I say that, I want to be clear.
I'm not saying I'm going to domy workouts at the expense of any.
(26:48):
Everything else.
What I'm doing is I am makingsure that I accommodate for the fact
that I have a workout, and I know
it's important to me, and I'm going
to get it done around all my other
responsibilities.
And that was something thatwas really impactful the first time
you said that to me, and it added
tothe mental strategies that I have.
I want to always show up at arace, and I want to always be standing
there in the start confident that
Idid everything I could.
(27:15):
I was going to say, let's bereally clear here.
That doesn't mean yourpreparation is perfect.
I mean, going into the racelast weekend, because of injuries,
my runwas completely undercooked.
But it was the best I coulddo, given what I was working with
atthe time.
You know, maybe once in ourlife, we all get to put together
a racewhere our preparation is perfect
aswell as executing all the pieces.
(27:38):
But ren, talking about justgiven the circumstances that you're.
Given, that you did everythingyou possibly could.
So.
And your reference to my,like, going as hard as I could in
the last mile is, again, from learning
from failures.
I have called you from raceswhere I was passed in the last 500
meters and ended up losing a podium
spot by less than a second.
(28:03):
And I have learned the hardway that I just do not want to ever
have that happen because I didn't
giveeverything in the last little bit.
That's how I approach all myraces unless I have the information
that Ihave a big gap or anything like that,
which I did not have in this case.
And, yeah, so there's someother stuff here that I think is
worthwhile reviewing.
(28:26):
We found a study that talkedabout effects of psychological and
psychosocial interventions on sport
performance.
This is a meta analysis of 35different papers looking at psychological
andpsychosocial interventions and whether
or not they actually were impactful
onathletes and their performance.
And basically it found thatthere really is a very strong correlation,
not clear causation, but a very strong
correlation showing a positive effect.
(28:56):
When you have these kinds ofinterventions, when you get athletes,
when you give athletes tools to be
positive, to have means of dealing
withfailures, we're calling them failures,
but maybe not setbacks.
Setbacks.
Thank you.
Then they do better overall.
But what I found mostinteresting in this study, the most
interesting finding, was who it was
that was the most effective provider
ofthose interventions.
(29:22):
It wasn't practitioners likesports psychologists.
It wasn't researchers, itwasn't the individuals or equipment
managers.
It was coaches.
Coaches like you and me.
It was when the coaches whoprovided the athletes with the strategies,
the athletes really took them in
most efficiently, most effectively,
andactually had the best success, which
I thought was pretty darn fascinating,
andgoes again to reinforce the importance
ofhaving a coach, of having a coach
whobelieves in you and who is going
toteach you how to do all of these
different mental skills of things
likevisualization, things like rehearsals,
things like.
(30:05):
We talked, when I spoke toDaya Grant, we talked about getting
into flow state and clutch state,
andhow you can practice those kinds
ofthings in your training.
These are all skills thatcoaches can provide you with and
that Juliette provides her athletes
with.
And I work with my athletes onin order to try and give our athletes
the best chances of success.
I feel like we, a few minutesago, moved away a little bit from
the topic of conversation that we
want this discussion to pursue in
that what the center talk was really
talking about was even in the face
of losing points, in the face of
these many failures that take place
throughout the tennis match, of returning
to that positive internal voice,
thatthe next point will be better, that
I am a good athlete, that I'm a good
tennis player, that I can win this,
that I'm better than my opponent,
whatever.
(30:57):
And I think that those veryvisceral voices, if you will, that
have to exist in an athlete's head.
They come from the athlete.
Yes.
They can also come from a coach.
Absolutely.
I think you and I both had theexperience through our athletic career
where we see a workout or we, our
coach tells us what they expect our
race performance is going to be,
and we're like, I can't push those
watts, or I can't run that fast,
orwhatever there is.
(31:29):
And then, of course, we do.
And that, of course, beliefcomes from the coach and the coach
basically holding us up to a standard
that we didn't know we could attain.
And by having someone elsetell us, we begin to believe it.
And I know that I've certainlytold athletes, yes, you can do a
70.3, and they'll say, no, I can't.
I've only ever done a sprint,and I said, no, in six months you
can do a 70.3, let's sign up for
one, or whatever it is, putting that
out there saying, yes, I believe
you,athlete can do what's.
(31:58):
And then they begin to believeit, and they believe it more and
more.
Right?
So there is the belief thatcomes from externally, where a coach's
voice is saying, yes, you can do
this goal, whatever it is.
But I think that the bulk ofthis really does have to come from
the athlete.
And I do think it is, maybepart of it is internally learned,
but Ialso think it is a learned skill
onhow to push yourself along when things
don't go right.
(32:31):
We've talked about this beforeon this podcast about having that
kind of mental toolkit of, this is
what I'm going to say to myself when
my goggles get knocked off, or when
I'm way off the pack, or when I'm
under shooting my power, or when
myrun paces off, or when someone comes
find me who I know is in my age group,
this is what I'm going to say to
myself.
(32:51):
And being able to rummagearound in that bag of tricks and
come out with.
I have all kinds of thingsthat I say to myself that are raised
and some of them are worse.
To say them outside of racistsituation are ridiculous.
Right?
They sound absurd.
And I remember learning thisas a young rower, as a young Olympian.
I would say things to myselfthat, again, were absurd within the
context.
But in the moment you believethem and it inspires you and it moves
you along and it takes you to the
next level and it has you continuing
tobelieve that, get out of my way.
(33:23):
I'm coming for you.
Get out of my way.
Yeah.
And that, I think, is what.
And maybe whether you'recompeting for a podium spot or not,
maybe you're just.
You just need to keep going onthe run.
It might be a slightlydifferent voice, but it is.
I am powerful, I am strong, Iam kicking ass.
I am feeding these hills for breakfast.
I am whatever it is.
But athletes have to practicethat and have to have that.
(33:46):
It doesn't just happen.
Right?
And I think we're saying thesame thing.
I think all I was saying wasthat in some cases, I know for myself,
I've developed some of these things
by myself.
Some of the mantras I havecame from me, but a lot of it has
come from external places.
Some of it has come from coaches.
Some of it has come from my,my friends who, like yourself and
Benny and Kelly, who are such phenomenal
successes, who I learn from by hearing
what you tell yourself.
(34:13):
And I start doing that, Istart picking up those habits.
Hanging around with otherpeople who are amazing athletes really
rubs off.
So I think that and having acoach who has succeeded and has done
well, I think also is really helpful
ifyou want to succeed, because then
you can learn from what they've done.
And it doesn't mean that youhave to want to be a world champion.
(34:37):
It doesn't mean that you haveto want to get on the podium, but
you could still benefit from learning
how to incorporate some of those
skills because it will help you achieve
whatever your goals are.
And I guess that's all I wassaying, because exactly like you're
saying, you have to practice them.
You have to practice positivethinking in your everyday life.
You have to practice it.
(34:57):
Finding those failures, thoselittle micro failures that happen
andlearning to see them as opportunities.
And every time you see it asan opportunity, as a way to grow
andget better, you've succeeded.
And you're just going to makeyourself propel along that pathway
towards the goal that you have.
You know, there's anotherwonderful story, another wonderful
penetrated story that I learned.
(35:20):
So Serena Williams, I don'tknow if she's still coached or exactly
what time period she was coached
bythis french guy named Patrick.
His last name is unusual, so Idon't remember it, but his name was
Patrick.
He was a french guy.
And I guess there was oneWimbledon, and Serena was playing
incredibly badly and every time she
came to net, she lost the point.
And so she's getting extremely frustrated.
(35:40):
And between matches, her coachin this, if you can imagine this,
with sort of a french accent and
the whole thing she said, he said,
serena, I'm watching you play, and
every time you come to met, I just
sit back in my chair and relaxed
and Iknow you're going to win the point.
And Serena looks at him andsays, really?
I thought I was blowing it.
Every time I came to net, Ithought I was losing all the points
to net.
(36:03):
I'm so frustrated.
He goes, no, every time youcome to net, the percentages are
unbelievable.
You're winning the huge numberof points where you come to net.
Of course, next game, nextmatch, Serena goes out.
She comes to net more often.
She's killing it pretty muchall the time she comes to net, she's
winning the point.
And it was just, again, thatsort of affirmation even.
(36:24):
Oh, and then the interviewersays to this guy, this coach Patrick.
So you lied to her.
And of course, you have toimagine this french guy going, was
it a lie?
I don't know.
It's a wonderful interview.
But again, it was, this guytold her he believed in her and she
was a great tennis player and she's
agood net player.
(36:46):
And the next game she went outand believed it herself.
Did a phenomenal job.
So again, whether it's anexternal voice or there's an internal
voice, there's a lot of power in
believing in your own strength and
power and confidence and everything
else.
Yeah, that's a great anecdote.
I want to leave it therebecause I think starting with tennis,
ending with tennis, it's a good little
bow to put on it.
(37:08):
This has been another greattopic of conversation.
We have listener submittedquestions coming up on the next couple
of medical mailbags.
But if you have a questionthat you would like to have us answer
on the medical mailback, I hope that
you'll send it in to us.
You can email me at tridocloud.com, or you can join the
private Facebook group for this podcast.
(37:31):
You can search for Tridocpodcast on that platform, answer
thethree easy questions.
I will grant you.
Admittance and you couldsubmit your questions there or just
join the conversation.
What did you think about this segment?
What do you think about theshow in general?
All of those things are fairgame in that private group.
Juliette, thanks so much forjoining me.
Enjoy the rest of yourvacation and we will chat again on
the next medical mailbag in a couple
of weeks.
(37:53):
Thank you Jeff.
Looking forward to it.
My guest on the podcast todayis Michelle Bond.
Michelle is a kinesiologistwho has been serving clients since
1999 and is at the top of her field
by no other means than hard work,
study and gaining the trust of the
over 1200 clients that she's worked
with.
(38:15):
She holds a master's degree inkinesiology from the University of
Texas with advanced coursework in
sports psychology and cardiovascular
disease.
She's a published researcherin the area of strength and connective
tissue and is a fascia Research society
author and contributor.
Michelle is a NASM that Ibelieve is the north american sports
medicine.
Is that correct, Michelle?
(38:36):
National association of Sports Medicine.
I was so close.
Certified Corrective Academycertified corrective exercise specialist
and holds a level two fascia specialist
certification from the international
team of researchers.
She uses her proprietarymovement assessment and corrective
exercise system to program exercise
forpeople who are truly looking to connect,
ha, no pun intended, with how their
body works and stick to a lifetime
ofhealthy movement.
(39:03):
It's my pleasure to introduceBond, Michelle Bond as my guest today.
Michelle, thanks so much forbeing here on the Tri Dog podcast.
Thank you so much.
I really appreciate thisopportunity you gave me.
Thank you for that wonderful introduction.
I want to begin first justwith this whole notion of fascia.
I think that a lot of mylisteners will probably be familiar
withthe concept or the word, but they
probably don't really know what it
means.
(39:31):
So help my listenersunderstand what fascia is and why
they should care.
That is great idea, becauseout in the mainstream arena there
aresome great definitions and some are
very less weighted, let's say, and
I will just say this to your listeners,
you're going to be on the upside
ofknowledge here.
(39:52):
In fact, there's anomenclature committee right now,
meaning we are continuing to develop
the definition of fascia in real
time.
So what does that mean for allof us?
It means that some disciplinesinclude some structures because they're
anatomists and surgeons, and other
people include other definitions
orphilosophies because they are movement
practitioners or hands on practitioners.
(40:19):
So for us today, we're goingto include things like ligaments,
tendons.
It's this unified web.
I guess I should say tensionalsystem that I'll describe later that
surrounds and penetrates every single
thing.
So that's nerves, vessels,bone, muscle, your organs, everything.
(40:44):
And so the idea is we're goingto include those structures again,
thedefinition, you'll see if you read
research or listen to different practitioners,
there are different definitions based
on the kind of practice they are
involved in.
So for us, as movement peopleor people enjoying exercise and sport,
we have to include this.
(41:12):
This whole idea of, eventhough ligaments and tendons have
adifferent definition to some people,
weare going to include that because
thatis a part of the system.
So, again, it's thisubiquitous system, this tensional
netthrough the entire body.
Yeah, I think of it as aconnective tissue that kind of binds
all the stuff together.
(41:33):
That kind of holds everythingwithin the organism from just being
otherwise a gelatinous mess.
Is that kind of a way ofthinking about it?
Yes, and that's a great point,because there's two main layers,
thesuperficial layer, which is becoming
allthe rage now, but we're not going
todeal with that right now.
We're dealing with the deeper layer.
(41:53):
So there's.
Within the deeper layer,there's this layer that's right under
the superficial layer and some fat
layers that is like this elastic,
as they.
The researchers call it, theelastic bodysuit.
So it is connecting us fromhead to toe with this connection.
Not just connection formovement, like movement and force
transmission.
(42:15):
Okay?
But under that suit, then youhave the layers of fascia that are
invested in the muscle and other
structures.
So the deeper layer, to me, asa movement professional, is divided
into sort of two different layers
inthat deeper layer.
So we can talk about that suitand then what's going on with the
muscle and bone.
(42:38):
All right?
So, as athletes, why do weneed to know about this?
Why do we need to even bother?
Why is it important?
Oh, this is my favorite part.
To start, I did a presentationabout the embryology of fascia.
So it's truly muscle's partner.
And as athletes andrecreational enthusiasts, we think
about muscle and how our bones are
maybe.
(43:03):
But this fascial concept trulyis muscles partner within, let's
say,five or six days in your mother's
womb.
Yes.
We're going all the way back there.
There's this spewing of fineweb, and that is the beginning of
the fascia system.
And guess what?
The muscle tissue grows intothat layer or that direction.
(43:28):
So what I say to people is, ifit's that important, then it's got
to be that important here in our
bodies as adults or young adults
outthere in the world doing exercise.
So it truly is musclespartner, and it's.
And conditioning it separatelyis very important.
(43:50):
Now, you cannot separatemuscle and fascia, but the idea is
to perform certain movements with
certain load in a certain way to
address just the fascia, because
ittruly helps muscle.
It's not muscle that'snecessarily stretching.
It's the fascial component.
(44:12):
And when it's conditioned, ithelps with force transmission.
So let's say you're a runner,you're swimming, you're biking, your
triathlon, and let's say, in your
thigh muscle, the actual spindles
ofmuscle fiber do not reach from one
joint to the other.
What's helping is that fascialnet, that communication within the
muscle.
(44:37):
So it's truly helping force production.
That's why I think it's so important.
Okay, so you talked about howwe have to condition the fascia as
much as we are conditioning the muscle.
What can somebody do in orderto do that?
The thing is, like I said, youcan't separate the two tissues.
You just cannot.
(44:57):
But it's the load or the typeof movement.
So, for example, somethingthat fascia responds to.
I call it different categoriesof movement.
So we have maybe slow, deepfoam rolling for hydration.
We think of.
There's fast foam rolling thatyou would do prior to competition
to wakeup the sensory or proprioception
where you arein space and help with circulation.
(45:25):
Okay.
Deeper, slow rolling withdirectional changes is for hydration.
Okay, that's.
People are familiar with foam rolling.
And I can answer morequestions about that if you want
to,but types of movement.
So let's say I want toincrease the elastic capability of
my fascia.
Something you could do islight hopping.
(45:46):
People will say, but I'm usingmy muscle.
I'm still using my muscle.
Yes, you are using your muscle.
Okay.
But the idea is to get in tunewith what this collagenous tissue
cando for this spring like motion.
So there's certain categoriesof movement, whether it's sensory
refinement, slowing movement down
this spring like quality, with different
exercises you can do, there's slow
directional changes.
(46:14):
So, for example, instead ofjust standing in a calf stretch like
we do for 30 to 40 seconds, there's
other techniques to embellish this
tissue, whether it's holding at the
end range of motion and doing slight
pulsing movements.
There's different kind ofreceptors in the fascia.
So you want to do movementsthat stimulate all these kinds of
receptors.
(46:38):
When you're stretching, forexample, instead of just one muscle,
wewant to stretch in long muscle chains.
We want to perform fluidmovements that are elegant.
Now, you're wondering, wherecan I get all this information?
Hopefully, by the end ofAugust, I will have my fascial program
done and ready for you to take a
look at, because, again, you can't
separate the tissue.
(47:00):
But I just finished doing aten week mentorship with some of
the researchers, and there's different
categories of movement that embellish
andaccentuate how this, this tissue
canoperate optimally.
So while phone rolling andstatic stretching and warming up
is good, there are some other categories
of movement that can be performed,
andthey don't take a lot of time.
(47:24):
That's the beauty of it.
So it sounds to me, like yousaid, you can't separate muscle from
the fascia.
You can't separate fascia fromthe muscle, but you can accentuate
thebenefits to the fascia by doing a
different kind of movement, different
kind of activity that is going to
accentuate the benefits to the fascia,
even though you're still using the
muscle.
(47:47):
And I heard you mentionhopping, and I've heard a couple
ofdifferent times, people advocating
thingslike jump rope, that jumping rope
isa really good activity that not only
benefits the muscles, but also is
one of these activities that, from
listening to you, is, I'm guessing,
couldbe one of those things that could
benefit tendons and ligaments and
also some of these fascial components.
(48:10):
Be an accurate assessment?
Absolutely.
It's just, the thing is, it'sincreasing load over time.
So I just, this is so perfect timing.
I finished this mentorshipbecause we were talking about hopping
or jumping rope.
When you get to a point whereyou start feeling your calf muscle,
stop, because now you're using muscle
and not the recoil property of the
fascia.
(48:32):
So that means don't jump ropefor half an hour, do it for literally
30seconds or a minute, and work your
way up to this place where you can
be light and springy.
I once did this on atreadmill, training for a marathon
whereI got my brain into my Achilles tendon
and my calf muscle, and I said, stop
contracting, be light and springy.
(48:56):
And the only way that you canpractice that is to literally do
that thing.
So it's something that takespractice, but the muscle, when walking,
like for walking, running a little
bit, but walking especially, you're
using more of the elastic properties
ofthe fascia, not so much the muscle
contraction.
(49:16):
So this is an idea you can use?
Yeah, no, I got you.
And then what about for recovery?
You mentioned that it'simportant to help the fascia.
Just the way we do with muscles.
A massage, for example, is,I'm assuming, one of those things
thatyou can do.
What are things that you coulddo to accentuate recovery of the
fascia after.
(49:39):
A hard effort, hands ontherapy will always be number one,
especially from somebody who understands
the delicate layers of the superficial
fascia and deep fascia.
A lot of times, people willsay, I'm so sore.
Dig in.
Oh, the research is showing,no, don't dig in.
(50:01):
Hands again.
Hands on therapy, whether it'smassage or other.
I will also be an advocate foracupuncture, because one of the main
researchers who works at the Harvard
Alternative Medical School there,
she's not only MD, but she's an acupuncturist.
And she did some fabulousresearch showing that when the acupuncture
needle is in, the fascia jumps and
grabs onto the needle.
(50:26):
Pretty cool.
So that is this circulatory effect.
If you do not have access tothat, then the next best thing would
be tools like a foam roller.
If you're not able to get onthe ground, a lot of times you can
use, I use a spiky massage ball against
the wall with some of my clients,
orthey're on a table and they have
their leg up on a table using the
ball.
(50:52):
But for the sake of discussionhere, we'll talk about the foam roller.
And that's when I mentionedearlier, was the.
This deeper, slow phone rolling.
It's, I'm going to say my veryfamous line, everyone knows, or you'll
know now, annoyingly slow.
So if you're foam rolling thecalf, let's just take that for an
example.
(51:12):
From the ankle towards theknee, not under the knee, but just
the belly of the calf.
What you're trying to do is goone direction, especially there,
because there's one way valves, and
we just want to go one way.
And you're literally goingsuper slow rolling left to right,
andthat is it.
You're going to do that onlyone time and leave maybe two to three
days in between that body part.
(51:36):
Because what we're finding isthat type of pressure is very similar
to hands on therapy.
And we found in the lab thatthere's collagen degradation, meaning
it's going away.
The collagen is being degradedin the body, and in that area, it
needs a chance to build that up back
up.
So that would be a very directway to recover in terms of direct
input through pressure.
(52:06):
Other recovery would be, asyou probably always tell your clients
as well, drinking plenty of good,
clean water, actual rest.
Or it could be, if you arereally sore because you overloaded
it,which I can talk about.
Eccentric training and whatthat does to fascia.
Don't sit all day long.
(52:28):
Try to just move.
My first marathon was a dare.
Okay.
I trained one week.
That's it.
I did all 26 miles.
I could only walk 1.1 mile anhour on the treadmill for five days,
but I didn't sit down.
That's what your fascia wants.
Unless you are severelyinjured and the doctor says, sit,
but generally speaking, do not sit.
(52:53):
This is a huge thing for recovery.
You gave me a lot to thinkabout there, and it all got jammed
inmy frontal lobe trying to decide
howto respond.
So the foam rolling.
I think we all know that kindof discomfort from the foam roller,
andyou're giving us license to not do
it every day, which I think we are
all going to be very happy about.
(53:19):
So only to do it once everytwo to three days, because that discomfort
we're feeling is genuine.
The foam roller is not themost comfortable thing to be doing,
and there's a reason for that.
I'm getting the sense it'sbecause we're actually causing some
almost damage, if you will, to the
fascia, which is necessary for rebuilding
it to be stronger.
(53:40):
Is that an accurate kind ofstatement, actually?
What sort of.
If you're training too hard,the fascia is going to respond in
a negative way, which means it's
natural to overtrain or try something
toosoon in loading, let's just say.
But the foam rolling, I'm gladyou brought that up.
The foam rolling shouldn't be painful.
(54:02):
If it is, you got to eitherlighten up or get a different roller.
Or if you only have a superhard roller, put a towel.
This is what is going on.
If you are in pain when you'rerolling, what's going to happen is
some of those receptors that deal
with pain are going to get called
oninto action.
We do not want to ask them tobe in pain all the time.
(54:23):
We want to suppress that nose deception.
We need to suppress that.
We don't want to knock on its door.
So phone rolling.
When I first started doingthat with people in 2004, people
wereturning purple, and we thought, oh,
this is great.
It's not.
It needs to be comfortable.
Even the slower rolling.
(54:44):
If you come upon an area thatis particularly painful, you would
pause and then maybe do a little
shearing motion, like back and forth.
I call it the cheese grater.
But, yeah, I'm glad youbrought that up.
We do not want excessive, uncomfortable.
Yeah, the cheese graterdoesn't sound any more comfortable
than thefoam roller.
I know what you mean, but,yeah, I don't know anybody who thinks
the foam roller is particularly a
comfortable implement.
(55:11):
But it's an interesting ideato do it in a way that makes it more
comfortable.
And then what else can we doto try and maintain a healthy fascia?
You've mentioned some ways tostrengthen it, to make it more robust,
to help it recover.
You mentioned drinkingadequate amounts of water.
Is there anything else that wecould do to try and encourage a healthy
fascia?
Because again, I really, thisthought of how it works in conjunction
withour muscles, and I know for myself
Idefinitely can think of the tendon
tothe ligament, to the muscle, to the
fascia within the muscle, as all
one big unit.
(55:47):
We think that we're trainingour muscles when, of course, we're
training that entire unit together
allat once.
But when we're actuallytraining for endurance and consuming
oxygen and dealing with energy, that's
truly the muscle cells.
But we need to really considerways to make the fascia healthier.
So what are things that wecould do just on a day to day basis
besides just better nutrition and
hydration?
(56:13):
Is there anything that we canbe thinking about on a day to day
basis to try and encourage just an
overall improvement in our fascial
health?
Yes.
First, think about it.
Look at a book, look at sometype of picture about it, and get
it in your mind of what it really
is.
(56:34):
And then understand that it'sthinking on your behalf 24/7 so every
position you're in on a long airplane
flight, you will get up, try to sit
in the aisle.
Okay.
What happens is when we sittoo long, the collagen fibers actually
start to go.
This person is in this position.
(56:56):
We need to support it.
That's why when you get up outof a chair, out of.
If you've been in a meeting ora long movie or whatever, for 3 hours,
you feel creaky, maybe.
And so when you condition yourfascia, you'll feel less creaky getting
out of these long situations.
So your job, besides doing allthis other stuff I mentioned, is
think about it.
(57:21):
It is thinking on your behalf24/7 its output is only as good as
its input.
So if you're carrying abackpack, if you're carrying a child,
if you're pushing groceries, if you're
filling a gas tank, if whatever it
is, your fascia is thinking about
this posture.
Just also try to be moreelegant in your everyday life.
(57:42):
I know on social media I havea few posts of me dancing in the
kitchen.
Rather than clumping to therefrigerator and clumping over here,
I put myself, let me print over to
the refrigerator and then print sounds
silly.
I'm gonna be 55 in a few days,and I'm telling you, I feel 30 years
younger.
(58:04):
I'm not kidding.
I feel springy in my body suit.
All of these researchers arewell into their sixties and some
intheir seventies, and they can do
way more than I can.
So it's about thinking,visualizing this springy bodysuit.
Even if you don't think you'reelegant in moving in everyday life,
just think it and move that way.
(58:29):
Whether it's reaching to turnon a light instead of going, ah,
turn on the light.
Reach slowly maybe, and turnon the light maybe just once a day.
It's the thought.
First, it's believing in yourself.
Second, you can do this.
And third, it's everythingthat you do all day long because
it'salways thinking.
(58:51):
So it's really beingintentional with movement.
It's being intentional withmovement, avoiding being static for
long periods of time.
You mentioned try not to sitfor too long.
All of that resonates with me,and all of that makes a lot of sense,
especially as we get older.
I think we all feel that thelonger we stay seated, that, like
you said, the creakiness as we get
up.
(59:13):
And I really like that idea oftrying to be more elegant in our
movements.
I know also as we get older,when sudden movements tend to have
negative consequences much more frequently.
And I think if you can beintentional about your movements,
youprobably go a long way towards avoiding
those kinds of adverse effects or
adverse kinds of unintentional kinds
of things.
(59:36):
Being intentional in thoughtand intentional and purpose probably
goes a long way towards helping all
of this and helping you be able to
stay healthy and be able to continue
todo the things that we love and keep
moving.
And as you said, be youthful,both in body and mind.
Yes, it's just try differenttypes of movements.
(59:57):
Don't.
Like I said, the kitchendancing thing everybody loved, or
getting in the car, you're getting
init slowly, reaching for the door.
It makes a difference.
Take a dance class.
That's what I tell all triathletes.
Once in a while, move in allthe directions and stay springy.
We hear a lot about yoga, andI'm curious on your opinion of yoga.
(01:00:19):
Is yoga a positive thing orpotentially negative?
I personally, I'm agnostic.
I know a lot of people love yoga.
I have not.
I just don't.
My own time limitations haveprevented me from being able to incorporate
it.
But I have given a lot ofthought to trying to get it involved,
especially this office season that's
going to come up in the fall.
(01:00:40):
I don't want to think aboutthe fall.
I'm enjoying the summer.
But anyways.
But anyways, what are yourthoughts about yoga as a means of
supporting fascial health?
Yoga has been included veryoften in all of our research papers
and textbooks.
Now, in my interpretation ofyoga is there's several kinds of
yoga.
(01:01:03):
Some is very fast paced, whichis great because it's just moving
youin different positions.
You should do it at your paceand at your depth of range of motion.
But if we're going to talkabout what a lot of people think
ofslow melting yoga, it depends on
the person.
(01:01:25):
If we think about stretchingor holding poses, we have to think
about while there's a lot of research
about yoga and where it actually
comesfrom as a discipline, not just physically,
but mentally, and some spiritually,
andanytime you hold a pose or stretch,
you're still inputting to the body.
(01:01:45):
So if you're stretching anarea that shouldn't be stretched,
thenwhat's happening is you're taking
awaythat optimal push and pull.
I forgot to mention thatalready, biotensegrity, it's this
optimal push and pull in the body.
So if you become too supple inone area, that might restrict how
much strength you can build, either
inthat area or another area.
(01:02:08):
So I think if you're gettinginto slow, melty stretches, go in
with the idea that you're going to
go into it conservatively.
And for people that do it thatare already really bendy, I would
tryto do those poses for more clearing
themental space and hold a stretch if
we were going to categorize the load.
(01:02:33):
I'm working on that right nowwith the research project.
Is categorizing the load at athree or four on the stretch scale
out of ten.
So you're feeling it, but not really.
The only way to really knowwhat you should be stretching is
to have a biomechanical assessment.
That's something I do.
So yoga, as far as beingaround other people and getting in
different positions of the body,
Ithink is great.
(01:03:00):
Just don't overdo it and don'tdo anything that causes discomfort.
And if you're already bendy,be aware of that.
Just understand you don't wantto get extra bendy.
The epitome of flexibility isnot being able to do the splits or
have seated with your legs wide and
your whole chest can go to the floor.
That's great.
(01:03:21):
But that's not the epitome of,say, we all have to attain that to
be great athletes.
That's not true.
All right, I think that's aperfect place to close as opposed
tobeing open.
As you mentioned, MichelleBond is a kinesiologist who specializes
inthe research and assessment of connective
tissue, specifically the fascia,
andtalks, or has her own proprietary
movementassessment and corrective exercise
system that she works with both athletes
and non athletes.
(01:03:51):
And I am going to put links towhere you could find Michelle and
all of the things that she has done
in this vein and you'll be able to
find that in the show notes Michelle
Bond thank you so much for joining
meon the Tridar podcast today for this
very interesting and I think enlightening
conversation.
Thank you so much.
I really appreciate it.
(01:04:15):
What's up everybody?
My name is Joe Wilson and I'ma proud supporter of the Tri Dark
podcast.
The Tri Dark podcast isproduced and edited by Jeff Sankoff,
oneof my good friends, along with his
amazing interns, Cosette Rhodes and
Nina Takashima.
You can find the show notesfor everything discussed on the show
today, as well as the archives of
previous episodes at www.trythpodcast.com.
(01:04:38):
do you have any questionsabout any of the issues discussed
on thisepisode or do you have a question
forconsideration to be answered on a
future episode?
Send Jeff an email at try docloud.com.
if you are interested incoaching services, you should really
reach out to jeff@tridoccoaching.com
or livesfourcoaching.com where you can find
a lot of information about Jeff and
the services that he provides.
(01:05:03):
You can also follow Jeff onthe Tri Dark podcast Facebook page,
Tridar coaching on Instagram, and
the Tridark YouTube channel.
And don't forget to join theTridark podcast private Facebook
group.
Search for it and request tojoin today.
If you enjoy this podcast, Ihope you would consider leaving a
rating interview as it helps the
show as well as subscribe to the
show whenever you download it.
(01:05:25):
And of course, there's alwaysthe option of becoming a supporter@patreon.com.
the music heard at thebeginning and the end of the show
isradio by empty hours and is used
with permission.
This song and many others likeit can be found at www.reverbnation.com,
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independent fans a chance.
(01:05:49):
The Tridark podcast will beback soon with another medical question
and answer it in another interview
withsomeone in the world of multisport.
Until then, train hard, train healthy.
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