March 26, 2025 • 48 mins
In this podcast episode, meet Kelly Kumler, a former elementary school teacher who transformed her side hustle of designing digital resources into a full-time career. After discovering her passion for design, particularly in the wedding industry, she founded Kelly Ryan Co., where she helps creatives such as florists, wedding planners, and photographers build premium brands, stunning websites, and SEO-driven content.
Through her journey from burnout to thriving business owner, Kelly shares valuable insights on transitioning careers, finding your niche, the importance of storytelling in branding, and practical tips on SEO and website design. Whether you're a new business owner or looking to elevate your brand, this episode offers golden nuggets of advice on navigating the entrepreneurial landscape.
Connect with Kelly on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/kellyryannco/
Learn more about Kelly's services here: https://kellyryann.com/
Thank you again for tuning into another episode of the Vicki Kotris Podcast! I want to support you, cheer you on a HYPE you up!! If you're celebrating anything (and I mean ANYTHING), send me a DM and let me highlight you on a recent episode.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Kelly Kumler (00:48):
Good.
Vicki (00:55):
all too well.
Meet Kelly, a show it fanatic,font obsessed designer, and full
blown SEO nerd who transformedher burnout into a thriving
brand and web design business.
After seven years as anelementary school teacher, Kelly
started designing digitalresources, first for herself,
then for her fellow educators,and finally for small businesses
(01:16):
in the wedding industry.
What started as a side projectsoon became her full time
passion, helping creativesattract and book their dream
clients.
Now, as the founder of KellyRyan Co., she's all about
helping florists, weddingplanners, and photographers
Build premium brands, stunningwebsites, and SEO driven content
that gets results.
(01:37):
If you're ready to level up youronline presence and turn clicks
into clients, stick aroundbecause this is the episode for
you.
So let's dive in.
Hey, Kelly.
How are you?
Kelly Kumler (01:47):
How are you?
Vicki (01:48):
Great.
I'm so happy to have you here.
Kelly Kumler (01:51):
Yeah.
Thank you so much for having me.
I'm excited.
Vicki (01:54):
Absolutely.
Something that inspires me andhas always inspired me as I've
started multiple businesses inthe past seven or eight years is
the stories of.
Those who have kind of listenedto their intuition and said I
know there's something differentthat I meant to do and your
story is no different than that.
(02:16):
So you started as a teacher, youhave since left the education
field and I want to know whenthat happened for you, what was
the turning point that made yousay, you know what, I don't feel
connected to this and I want totry something different.
Kelly Kumler (02:32):
Yeah, so I had started, like you said, like,
started creating digitalresources, um, kind of as this,
like, side hustle to teaching,which is so common in the
teaching world.
Like, almost every teacher Iknew had some kind of, like,
side income, right?
Um, and so I started doing thatprobably a year three of
(02:52):
teaching.
Um, but I never really thoughtlike, oh, I would take this and
leave the classroom with it.
Um, but then as I had my firstson in 2021 and like really
started to understand thatbalance or lack thereof between
like trying to be a mom andtrying to be a good teacher and
(03:15):
I just kept feeling that itchgot stronger to be like what
there's got to be something moreout there um something where I
can actually Live a life and doboth because I knew I didn't
want
Vicki (03:29):
Yeah.
Kelly Kumler (03:30):
stay at home mom.
Um, so I was trying to figureout like what that was going to
be.
So took my, you know, creativeexperience from teaching and
turned it into my, my full timegig now.
Vicki (03:45):
So, when you were doing this on the side, like you said
you were teaching, what weresome of the things that you were
doing when it was solely a sidehustle?
Kelly Kumler (03:52):
So I started by making resources for a website
called Teachers Pay Teachers,um, so you like, I, I'm like, if
you're familiar with it,
Vicki (04:00):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Kelly Kumler (04:02):
different resources that teachers can buy
and then use in their classroom,and through that, I kind of
built this whole following of,um, other online teacherpreneurs
and started then making logosfor these teachers for their
teachers pay teachers shops.
So that's where I startedgetting into the understanding
(04:22):
of like, why a logo matters anddesign and like, how do you even
do these design things online?
Um, and started making thoseconnections through that while I
was still teaching.
Vicki (04:37):
There are two things about what you just shared that
I really love.
Number one is, and I, and I'llask you because I do want to get
clarification for the audiencelistening is, did you have
design background?
Did you graduate with like agraphic design degree in
addition to education or wasthis something you just taught
yourself?
Kelly Kumler (04:56):
Yeah, no, I, um, was a psychology major, and then
went on and got my master's ineducation, so there was no
formal design experience.
I do remember, like, in highschool, I would sit there, like,
doodling, particularly words andletters.
Like, I was obsessed with likefonts and typography.
And I thought from then, likeI'm going to be a graphic
(05:18):
designer one day, but it waslike
Vicki (05:20):
Yeah.
Kelly Kumler (05:21):
things that felt so unattainable.
Like I'm not artistic enough.
I can't make that
Vicki (05:25):
Mm.
Kelly Kumler (05:26):
Um, and so then it kind of took, know, like 15
years for it to come back
Vicki (05:32):
Yeah, yeah, it's, it's that trapped idea that we
unfortunately live in that youneed some kind of formal
training or education to beconsidered an expert instead of
putting the emphasis on thedoing and I think we see that a
lot with the student loan crisisand people who were like, I
(05:52):
graduated with 120, 000 ofstudent loan debt, and I still
have no idea what I want to do.
And, but maybe I'll go to gradschool or maybe I'll get my
doctorate and not having adirection to back that up.
Not that we don't need doctorsand like, you know, people with
master's degrees in the worldbecause we do.
But I think a lot of timespeople are waiting for that to
(06:16):
be their permission slip ofexpertise instead of saying, why
don't I just.
Try this, because I like it, andmaybe it can turn into
something.
Kelly Kumler (06:26):
Yeah, absolutely.
It's so, like, it's such amental block, I think, where we,
if you, like, go back tothinking what were the things
you wanted to do when you wereyounger, and then, like, what
stopped you from doing it?
doing those things.
Like, some
Vicki (06:40):
Yeah.
Kelly Kumler (06:41):
it's like, well, I don't want to do that at all
anymore.
But, um,
Vicki (06:45):
Yeah.
Kelly Kumler (06:46):
those ideas were there at one point because you
felt some kind of calling tothem.
Vicki (06:52):
Yes.
I believe in that so strongly.
And, so, did you have thatmoment of shedding your mental
block to get into that new phaseof, you know, like how Stella
got her groove back?
How'd you get your groove intothinking, this is, this is who I
am now?
Kelly Kumler (07:07):
Yeah, I mean, I think it started because I had
it as a side hustle.
I wasn't relying on it as a formof income.
It was just kind of like anextra fun thing to do.
And it's like so funny to thinklike the first logos that I
made, first of all, the firstones were free.
Like I was like reaching out topeople like, can I do this for
you for free?
(07:28):
then, um, I started charginglike 25, you know, 40, which now
is like
Vicki (07:35):
Yeah.
Mm hmm.
Mm hmm.
Kelly Kumler (07:41):
It kind of like just took over time for me to
understand that and I think thelike biggest jump when I had to
like really shed that previousmindset of like I can't do this
Vicki (07:53):
Mm hmm.
Hmm.
Yeah.
Kelly Kumler (08:18):
it.
I'm going to figure it out.
So
Vicki (08:20):
Yeah.
Kelly Kumler (08:21):
like the biggest.
I have to moment.
Vicki (08:24):
Yeah, yeah, and you, it sounds like you kind of leveled
up along the way, which it is,it is very humbling to do a lot
of work for free, and I've doneit in every single business that
I've started, and this is mythird, where you, You
depressurize the situation and,um, and I think if there's good
(08:47):
and bad things, it helps youhone in on the things that
you're good at while you cantake the pressure off.
But I do think sometimes it setsthe tone of like, oh, the person
you're working for maybe doesn'ttake it as seriously when
Really, you know, this workingin a, in a professional services
environment, like both peoplehave to be invested, but I, it,
(09:09):
there is a time and a placebecause I'm sure at each level,
it's like, I charge 25, then Icharge 500 and now for a
website, 5, 000, like whateverthat range is that you go up,
it's your skills are increasingas you are charging more.
So I think there's a reallygreat strategy to that.
(09:30):
And.
And being really mindful withyour overall experience.
Kelly Kumler (09:37):
Yeah.
I think that there's definitelylike different schools of
thought on that specifically,you know, some people are like,
no charge your worth, likeimmediately,
Vicki (09:47):
Yeah.
Kelly Kumler (09:47):
I personally am definitely more of like, uh, let
me like inch things up over timeand kind of see where that line
is, um, to where like my idealclient meets.
My services and value.
Um, but it can definitely, youcan have different ways of going
about it for sure.
Vicki (10:08):
Yeah.
I agree.
I agree.
So when you decided that you'regonna do this full time, like
you're a new mom You are feelingthe pressures of going back to
work full time, which I'm anewer mom to and I feel the same
way.
And just being, it's such an eyeopening experience of being sold
(10:29):
kind of a bill of goods that youcan do everything.
You can be the best mom and havea great career and still do
things at home.
And unfortunately, like, Thereis a lot of that silent work
that falls on being a mom andbeing a woman.
And I think, I learned that veryearly as trying to juggle it
(10:52):
all.
It just creates more of anemotional and mental pain,
frankly, you know?
Like you're just in this placewhere you're overthinking
everything.
And so I'm curious, since thatseems to be the catalyst for
you, is when in that When inthat period of your, of time did
you say I'm gonna do this fulltime and maybe you're not doing
(11:14):
it full time too So I'd beinterested to know was this
something you chose to do simplybecause it wasn't 40 hours
required to sit in a classroomfrom 7 to 3 or whatever.
Kelly Kumler (11:25):
Yeah, so I, I would call this my full time
gig, but, um, I really workbetween the hours of like 9 a.
m.
and like 2 p.
m., um, because I still do dropoff and pick up most days for
the kids.
My
Vicki (11:40):
Yeah.
Kelly Kumler (11:41):
too, but, um, so it's like.
My full time job, but stillnothing compared to like the
hours I put in while teaching,but that
Vicki (11:49):
Yeah.
Kelly Kumler (11:49):
right?
Like to have that option to like
Vicki (11:53):
Yeah
Kelly Kumler (11:54):
own schedule.
Um, but yeah, I was really, I,so my son was born in July, so
he's a summer baby and I wentback to teaching that year.
And it was by January that myhusband and I were like, this is
not working.
Like I am getting called out ofclass.
weekly and keep in mind this was2021 so like COVID was
Vicki (12:17):
Yeah
Kelly Kumler (12:17):
going and daycares were still getting shut down
because of COVID exposures andthings like so I was being
pulled in so many directionsthat I was just like this is not
I can't even enjoy being a mom Ican't enjoy being a teacher I
was so overwhelmed andoverworked that there was like
nothing that I could like pointto and be like oh this is going
(12:38):
well you know
Vicki (12:39):
Yeah.
Mhm.
At least I have this.
Kelly Kumler (12:42):
Yes.
Yeah.
It was like, Oh my gosh, thereis none of that.
So yeah, it was, um, by Januaryand initially we, I had started
applying to other jobs, like,okay, I'll just
Vicki (12:52):
Okay.
Bye.
Kelly Kumler (12:53):
remote and I'll do that.
then after spending so much timeapplying to jobs, you know, you
just like apply to everything.
And getting really like nothingback, like no traction, barely
any even emails back.
I
Vicki (13:06):
Yeah.
Kelly Kumler (13:07):
why am I wasting my time doing this when I should
just be working for myself?
And fortunately, my husband'slike the hype person for me.
And he's like, you should, you
Vicki (13:18):
Amazing.
Kelly Kumler (13:19):
business owner.
So
Vicki (13:21):
Aw.
Kelly Kumler (13:21):
he really like pushed me into giving it a shot.
So,
Vicki (13:26):
And how long was that period of time where you started
making your own designs onTeachers Pay Teachers to fast
forward to 20, at this point,2022, where you're, you know,
leaning into this full time?
Kelly Kumler (13:39):
Yeah, um, let's see, I think I started making
resources for Teachers PayTeachers in probably 2018.
I think I actually opened myshop, I started making things
for my own class 2018 and then Iopened my own like Teachers Pay
Teachers shop in 2019.
Vicki (13:58):
Wow.
Kelly Kumler (13:58):
then it probably was like a year of doing that
before I actually got into likethe logo design side of things.
Vicki (14:04):
Mm hmm.
Kelly Kumler (14:06):
it was definitely like a gradual.
progression.
Vicki (14:10):
Wow.
I mean, that's not that long ofa time, honestly, to, to say, I
want to move into this.
And I, I, the reason why I wantto point it out is something
that I've dealt with in my ownpath is thinking that this work
has to be a grind and you haveto do it for years and years and
years instead of building areally mindful goal.
(14:34):
process, which is, I'm going todo this, uh, part time.
I'm going to do this as my sidehustle.
Okay, I have the confidence nowthat I know I can turn this into
a full time venture for myself.
So, I'm glad that you sharedthat, because honestly, even
though you have built thisreally strategically, I think it
helps other people who mightthink that it's a lot longer of
(14:56):
a transition before you canstart working for yourself full
time.
Kelly Kumler (15:00):
Yeah.
And I will say that, like, I wasdefinitely not like making,
replacing my income by thatpoint.
Vicki (15:06):
Yeah.
Kelly Kumler (15:07):
but it was just this moment of like, I have to
do this now, so I better find away to replace my income.
Um,
Vicki (15:15):
Yeah.
Kelly Kumler (15:16):
even, even in that like full time, it's taken time
to build that revenue.
Um, but it was, it was more oflike the emotional feeling
behind it that I was like, youknow, I wasn't ready in the
sense that I had the incomecoming in from this side hustle,
(15:38):
I had to do it at that time.
Vicki (15:40):
Yeah, yeah, that's the thing.
That's that's opening your mindto the fact that you it's not a
equal exchange.
Sometimes it's not a one for oneand you wait.
I mean, there are people whocould wait.
You literally could wait decadesto say I'm going to wait until
this side hustle or whatever itis replaces my full income at
this corporate job that youhate.
(16:01):
So you could wait and waste allthose years disliking something,
or you could make that change,realize and accept that okay,
I'm earning less, but I have somuch more time to figure out how
to earn more, how to level up,how to move into that next
stage.
So I'm glad that you shared thatbecause I don't think, um, I
think that's what holds a lot ofpeople back from take, leaning
(16:25):
into something more full time ormore seriously.
Kelly Kumler (16:27):
Yeah.
Vicki (16:29):
And I'm curious, what would you say is the biggest
skill that you took away fromyour teaching career that you
use every day in yourentrepreneur life?
Kelly Kumler (16:40):
Oh my gosh.
That's such a hard one becauseit feels so different even
though I know
Vicki (16:45):
Yeah.
Kelly Kumler (16:45):
So connected, uh, it's probably just my ability to
like organize my time, honestly,um, you know, within teaching,
it's like, you have 5 millionthings that need to be
accomplished
Vicki (16:59):
Yeah.
Kelly Kumler (16:59):
the year.
And sometimes you are inpositions at different schools
or with different teams thathave that like really organized,
like, okay, we're going to hitthis during this period and this
during this period and whatever.
But sometimes it's like, Thishas to be accomplished by the
end of the year, welcome toAugust, figure
Vicki (17:17):
Uh huh.
Kelly Kumler (17:17):
going to go.
Um, and so then that has reallylike helped me figure out, know,
working on client projects, liketogether scope and sequence and
what is going to make sense ofwhat needs to happen before they
get to me and what I need to dobefore they can move on to
someone else.
Um, and just kind of the wholelike process of a project.
Vicki (17:42):
Amazing, yeah.
I, this is a question that comesup a lot, and it comes up as I
continue to talk to clients, um,in being more of a marketing
freelancer.
And it's, how do you transitionfrom Um, kind of taking projects
one on one as they come whereyou're not as dependent on
(18:05):
having, you know, regular incomeor taking on regular projects.
And so what I'm getting at andI, um, what I'm getting at is
that sales strategy behindfinding your people and now you
specialize in a, in a specificindustry, which I want to talk
about in detail in just a fewminutes.
But I'm curious for you, whathas been the best path in
(18:27):
finding clients and maybe doingrepeat projects or getting
referrals and things like that?
Kelly Kumler (18:33):
Yeah, so I know some people, you know, really
rely on retainers versusprojects or a mix of both.
Um, I really do like a perproject basis.
It's just, I have found that'slike the way that my brain works
the best is like, I like a startdate.
I like an end date and we'removing on.
Um, but I have had.
(18:54):
know, clients that come back,either they come to me for a
brand and then they come backlater for a website or some of
my clients are also multibusiness owners, you know, like
yourself, where it's like,they'll come to me for one
business and then later they'relike, Hey, actually there's
other business needs thismakeover.
Vicki (19:12):
Yeah.
Kelly Kumler (19:13):
and so I think there's like so many.
Um, you know, obviously so manydifferent ways that you can go
about it, but for me, I thinkhaving like a strong client
experience, um, really helps inmaking sure that people are
referring you to
Vicki (19:29):
Yeah.
Kelly Kumler (19:30):
and family.
Um, and also that they wouldcome back to you if they need
additional work.
Um, so probably like my biggestsource of clients is actually
Instagram
Vicki (19:42):
Okay.
Kelly Kumler (19:42):
um, referrals or like repeats.
Vicki (19:45):
Amazing.
Okay, great.
I want to talk about how you usesocial in your business too.
Specifically Instagram, butbefore we do, um I I do want to
dive into how you found yourniche.
So you work with specificallywedding professionals.
It's a, that's a leap, right?
From your, your education nichethat you used to be in.
(20:08):
So did you pick that kind ofnaturally?
Did you, were you moreintentional?
Was it an accident?
Like, how did you come to pickyour niche and, and how has that
helped you in just, uh, youknow, how you build your
services?
Kelly Kumler (20:21):
Yeah, so I, um, again, like another little side
hustle I picked up whileteaching, um, I started, um,
designing wedding stationery andjust like putting it on Etsy.
and this was while I wasengaged, so I was like, oh, you
know.
This is a fun thing and justkind of again like had some of
the design experience so I kindof paired it with this
(20:44):
stationery world, um, andthrough that just sort of
connecting with people again onInstagram that were in like my
local wedding.
community.
and so that business did notlast long.
COVID came around literallythree months after I started the
business, COVID hit.
And so I was just kind of like,eh, I don't really love this
(21:05):
that much anyways.
Vicki (21:06):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Kelly Kumler (21:30):
I did, like, language and speech
pathologists.
I did, um, uh, lawyers.
Um, and then like from thatfirst year of clients, though,
almost all of them were withinthe wedding industry.
You know, I had these like fewoutliers, but still like there
(21:50):
was kind of this common thread.
So from that point, I was justlike, you know, I might as well
like lean into this a littlebit.
And.
understand the industry so thatI can give people the best,
advice and as they're buildingtheir marketing.
Um, and so it was kind of justlike a natural fit and I like
(22:11):
working with creative people.
So it worked
Vicki (22:14):
Yeah.
That's amazing.
I love that there's all of theselittle pockets in your story
too, Kelly, of you just goingfor it.
It's not like I just spent thistime like designing for years
and years.
It's like, no, I design thisstationary.
Stationary.
I tried it out.
I network with people who werein the wedding industry, which.
(22:34):
I truly believe everything isconnected, like every step that
you take, everything you learn,anyone you meet is all someone
that can come back around andjust be there for that next
phase or for that, you know,like a networking opportunity I
think is incredible because youdon't know when the Someone's
going to help you out or whenyou'll have the ability to help
someone or serve someone in anew way So I love that you just
(22:57):
jumped into that And youmentioned something of like
being Very connected to justcreatives that are in the
wedding industry and you actingas a creative what you know What
I know to be true is it would begreat if running a business is
all about like bright colors andideas and like picking fonts.
(23:18):
We know that there's so muchmore to that.
So when it comes to running thebusiness side, like when do I
pay my taxes or how to set up asystem to invoice and have
contracts so that everyone knowsthere's a start date, there's an
end date, what helped you on thebusiness side the most as you
(23:39):
were kind of figuring that outin your entrepreneur role?
Kelly Kumler (23:43):
Yeah, I really, it became like from my time of
doing all of this in a
Vicki (23:50):
Yeah.
Kelly Kumler (23:51):
um, you know, I learned a lot about marketing
from my teacher's paid teacher'sum, and just like how to market
these products I was making.
Um, I also learned so much aboutthe actual, like behind the
scenes of a business in my justfew months in wedding
Vicki (24:11):
Yeah.
Kelly Kumler (24:12):
because it was during COVID, you know, I ended
up having some free time.
So I
Vicki (24:18):
Yeah.
Kelly Kumler (24:19):
going through, you know, business courses and just
like, I would listen to mybusiness podcasts and like
trying to learn what the heckmarketing even was while I
Vicki (24:30):
Yeah.
Kelly Kumler (24:31):
the room with my newborn baby who would not sleep
by himself and would only sleepon me.
So I've been like, put in myAirPods and just like, sit there
holding the baby and learning
Vicki (24:40):
It's a great trick.
Kelly Kumler (24:42):
Yeah.
Vicki (24:42):
I love that.
Kelly Kumler (24:43):
you just can't get any, and I'm such a, like, I'm
such an Enneagram three, likeI'd have to do, keep doing
something.
So that was such a hard case forme.
I was like, what?
I just sit in this room and holdthis baby and don't do anything.
You know, And so probably like atoxic trait, but that's where I,
you know, popped in the AirPodsand made some
Vicki (25:03):
Yeah.
Do you have any favorites or anysuggestions of the podcasts you
listen to or any business booksthat really, like, stuck out to
you as being really helpful?
Kelly Kumler (25:14):
Yeah, um, gosh, there's like so many podcasts
that I have listened to likesingle episodes of over time,
but there are
Vicki (25:21):
Yeah.
Kelly Kumler (25:22):
books that I love and like go back to.
And one is, um,
Vicki (25:28):
Okay.
Kelly Kumler (25:29):
So that is like.
setting up, you know, yourbanks, your bank accounts and
your money to make sure that youare paying yourself.
Because was something I was soforeign to, like, how do I pay
myself?
What does that mean?
And really, you know, ultimatelyI was leaving my career to take
this job so that I could paymyself in a way that was life.
(25:52):
So that one I
Vicki (25:53):
Yeah.
Kelly Kumler (25:54):
The other is, um, building a story brand.
So that is all about like, it'sreally like the basis of your
marketing and just your
Vicki (26:04):
Okay.
Kelly Kumler (26:05):
needs to have a story to it and like
Vicki (26:08):
Transcripts provided by Transcription Outsourcing, LLC.
Kelly Kumler (26:15):
all the touch points where
Vicki (26:16):
Yeah, I love that.
I love that.
And the, I couldn't agree moreabout storytelling, and it's
something that I think has, Ididn't know it at the time, but
has always come really naturalto me, like picking pieces out
of my life and thinking, Oh,this is how I, Get that this
connects or this is how I canpush this thing forward and uh,
(26:40):
like my example is that when I Idid an accelerator program like
five years ago, it was rightbefore kovat and They had this
huge pitch competition at theend.
So you spent like 12 weeks or solearning all these different
areas of business and one bigarea was marketing and branding.
(27:02):
And so they were training us onlike how you do a proper pitch,
which I had never done before inasking for money or anything
like that.
So, um, that, that emphasis onthe emotional connection that is
in your brand and every singlebusiness that was in this
accelerator program had one.
I mean, we were in there forselling cookie dough for God's
(27:24):
sakes, like finding an emotionalconnection with cookie dough.
It's not.
It wasn't like so topical thatyou could find it, but I found
that I was really good at kindof uncovering that.
And so that's really what Ipreach now when I talk to my
clients is that your socialmedia, your emails, everything
needs to be fed with that.
(27:47):
The thread of your storyline.
What is it like?
What inspired you to leave yourcorporate job and start this
business?
Because that is that's thestorytelling that you want that
people will really connect to.
Kelly Kumler (27:59):
Mm
Vicki (27:59):
So I, um, I'm glad that you found that too, because
it's.
It is something that's so oftenoverlooked, um, when you're a
solopreneur or a small businessowner that doesn't have a team
that, that comes natural to.
You know, you really have tostart to like pluck out those
details to make it make sense toyour audience and ultimately why
someone would buy from you.
Kelly Kumler (28:21):
Yeah, and I think especially, like, it's so hard
to do for yourself, like, youknow,
Vicki (28:28):
Mm hmm.
Kelly Kumler (28:29):
trying to look at your own story and get that out
could be So like you get sooverwhelmed by it.
I mean,
Vicki (28:36):
Yeah.
Kelly Kumler (28:37):
a rebrand and obviously like that's something
that I do and I hired someoneelse because I was like, I am
too close to it.
Like I'm going to overthinkevery step of this way.
Like for client work, I can noproblem put these things
together.
But like when it
Vicki (28:52):
Yeah.
Kelly Kumler (28:52):
my own business, I overthink it and I get way too
like stuck in my head.
And I think so many of us aslike, So entrepreneurs or like
small business owners do thesame thing where it's hard to
like inside at your own story.
Vicki (29:08):
Yeah.
So what did that teach you nowthat you're going through a
rebrand?
What did you learn fromoutsourcing and bringing in
basically a you to do that sameexercise for yourself?
Kelly Kumler (29:18):
Yeah, I mean, fortunately, I worked with
people, like almost everyone,because I hired multiple people
for different parts of thisrebrand, um,
Vicki (29:26):
Okay.
Kelly Kumler (29:26):
almost everyone that I hired is someone I had
worked with previously, so Iknew they were going to be
great, um, and I didn't have to,like, over that and, like,
Vicki (29:39):
Yeah.
Kelly Kumler (29:39):
oh my gosh, it's what if it's not as great as I
would do it?
Like I was not
Vicki (29:43):
Yeah.
Kelly Kumler (29:44):
because I already knew that I would like overpick
every little thing Myself and
Vicki (29:50):
Okay.
Kelly Kumler (29:50):
these external idea thinker people
Vicki (29:55):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Kelly Kumler (29:59):
Yeah, and it was just like if you were going to
any time that you're trying tolike outsource anything And like
obviously look at their work,but then also like try and get
to know them first.
You know, you're not alwaysgoing to have the luxury that I
had of like having worked withthese people before on like
Vicki (30:16):
Yeah.
Kelly Kumler (30:17):
or like client projects.
Um, but in, this case like thatgoing into it, knowing how each
of them worked and like theirstyle and what I could expect
out of it was so big.
Vicki (30:34):
That's amazing.
And to have someone that youtrust and that you can validate
their work.
And I think it's also taking alittle bit of yourself out of it
and saying, I'm going to trustthe process and I know how to
guide these people, but I'mgoing to give creative freedom
to make it make sense.
And I think this is kind of agood.
(30:55):
Segway into the next part of ourinterview, which is giving some
really practical tips and tipsthat are, I would say, like
guides that small businesses orsolopreneurs can use as they
develop their own brandingstrategy.
And I like to be fair that noteveryone.
Um, is either focusing onbranding or can afford a, uh,
(31:19):
you know, a big rebrand package.
A lot of times, and you knowthis too, when you start your
business, you're doing so manythings on your own.
So maybe you can talk about thatfrom the lens of someone who
they're not ready to do a fullinvestment, but they still are.
wanting to show up in the rightway to connect with their
(31:39):
dreamiest clients.
So if we just say from a baselevel, like what are two or
three things that you would sayyou have to have as you're
building your brand as a new,we'll say newer business owner?
Kelly Kumler (31:52):
Yeah, I think the very first thing is really
understand who you want to workwith your ideal client, your
ideal audience, and really tryand put together like as much
information about this person orgroup of people as you can.
And I know that at first thatseems so weird because you're
(32:13):
like, this is just like a madeup person.
But you want to try andunderstand everything about
them.
Like where are they spendingtheir time?
Are they on Instagram?
Are they going to be at morelike in person events?
You know, this is all thenleading to how are you going to
be marketing your business?
Vicki (32:30):
Mm hmm.
Okay.
Kelly Kumler (32:34):
Client is always my suggested first step.
Um, another thing that Irecommend for anyone that's in
that, like through therebranding, or I mean, maybe
even just establishing yourbrand to begin with, um, is
trying to, um, understand likewhere.
(32:55):
How you're different.
So this is one area that I likelove to turn to Chat GPT or AI
Vicki (33:03):
Yeah.
Kelly Kumler (33:03):
I will literally go and I do this for clients,
too Like I have my clients giveme their top competitors and
then I will go collect thosecompetitors you know, social
media accounts, their websites,any bit
Vicki (33:16):
Okay.
Wow.
Kelly Kumler (33:37):
yourself and you kind of need that outside
perspective,
Vicki (33:41):
Yeah.
Kelly Kumler (33:42):
know, use the robots.
Vicki (33:44):
Oh, I love it.
And ChatGPT, yes, should beeveryone's best friend.
I personally don't think thatit's going to replace the jobs
of creatives because there is,there are limitations that
anyone who has used it.
Often knows, um, but the jolt ofinspiration that you get from
(34:05):
using AI in that exact way, it'sunmatched.
I mean, it is, it's phenomenaland I, that's what I recommend
to business owners all the time.
Um, if you're feeling stuck, ifyou need to create a content
strategy, that's such a goodplace to start.
It doesn't mean you rely on itfor everything, but you're
right.
Positioning is such a goodexample because you don't have
(34:26):
time to do.
Marketing analytics on everysingle one of your cust or, uh,
your competitors, like you'renot Target, you know, you are
someone who is doing a millionthings, so make it easier for
yourself.
Kelly Kumler (34:39):
Yeah, absolutely.
And yes, of course, like when Iam doing it for my own clients,
I'm not like, you know, spit itout and then just copy paste
into a document and send tothem.
Vicki (34:49):
Yeah,
Kelly Kumler (34:49):
so much more analysis behind it, right?
But like, if you are doing it onyour own, that's such a good
starting point just to
Vicki (34:56):
yeah.
Kelly Kumler (34:57):
the things that you don't even recognize.
You know, you are surrounded byyour competitors all the time.
Um, especially if you're in likea local market, like, um, like a
lot of my clients in the weddingindustry, you know, most of
their competitors are local tothem.
And so they're like seeing theircontent all the time.
They're seeing their work allthe time.
And it's hard to then like putyourself away from it and be
(35:20):
like, Oh, but look, they dothat.
And you do this and
Vicki (35:24):
Yeah.
Kelly Kumler (35:25):
out.
Vicki (35:26):
I think that's really true.
What is one common mistake thatyou see small business owners
make when it comes to theirwebsites specifically?
And how do you help them rightthat wrong?
Yeah.
Yeah.
Kelly Kumler (35:48):
about what they do.
So oftentimes it's like, welcometo my website.
Um, or like, welcome to mybusiness name.
And that doesn't really tell thevisitor anything about who you
are.
You're assuming that theyalready know who you are when
they get to your website.
If you're, you know, having somekind of headline like that.
(36:09):
Whereas I recommend one, yourheadline is like the best chance
to include keywords for SEO.
Um, but also to really likeimmediately call out who you
are, what you do, where you doit, like photographer based in
Boise, Idaho.
What like something so simplelike that doesn't need to be a
(36:30):
paragraph.
It's just like a line, but itimmediately tells people who you
are and what you do.
Vicki (36:37):
That's amazing.
Okay, and then from a designperspective, what insights do
you have for just a website nono?
Like, take this out of yourwebsite right now.
Kelly Kumler (36:47):
Um, probably the websites I see that are built
like the, they have like oneformat the whole way down the
page.
It's like
Vicki (36:58):
Mm,
Kelly Kumler (36:58):
image on the right, text on the left, the
whole way down.
Um,
Vicki (37:02):
okay,
Kelly Kumler (37:03):
gets really clunky for the human eye.
And we like to see.
Skim things, you know, that'slike our natural thing is to
like go through and skim first,and then if we see
Vicki (37:12):
yeah.
Kelly Kumler (37:13):
that we find useful, then we'll stop and read
it.
So if you have just likeparagraphs of text, no one's
gonna stop and read that.
You need to like split thoseparagraphs up into different
digestible sections.
Vicki (37:28):
Okay.
Okay, great.
And I, I know this from yourstory that you kind of soon
learned after you starteddesigning websites that SEO is
really important to yourclients, and so you leaned into
that in offering it as anadditional service.
So, again, for those newer SEO,search engine optimization, So
(37:49):
for those that are not supertechie like myself, um, what,
what are some very simple SEOtechniques that you can build
into your website, but also intoyour overall branding strategy?
So maybe how is SEO important tosocial media or anything else
that, that we might be using?
Kelly Kumler (38:08):
Yeah.
So SEO really, um, starts withkeyword research and
understanding what keywordspeople are actually looking for.
And so once you do some of thatresearch, you can use those
keywords in your website, onyour Instagram and Pinterest
really all over because peopleare looking for those same
keywords and all of thesedifferent platforms.
(38:31):
Um, Keyword research is like,you know, you could go into a
whole, like 12 step process ofhow to go about it.
But I will say that my favoritetool to use is called Uber
Suggest and they do have a freeversion.
So if you are interested in liketrying to get into keyword
research and just finding somekeywords that should be used
(38:52):
within your website or in yourcontent, I always recommend
starting there.
Vicki (38:57):
Amazing.
I think that's, I'm glad thatyou brought that up because that
was going to be one of my nextquestions is, um, without having
a 12 page document of whatkeywords work best, is there an
easier way to, to do that?
So it sounds like Ubersuggest isa really great tool to just
start from a basic level.
Kelly Kumler (39:12):
Yeah, and they're going to tell you like, it's
probably again, like if you'renot familiar with it, it might
feel overwhelming, but if youput in a keyword, it's going to
spit out some information and Isay pay attention to the two
numbers, which is volume and SEOdifficulty.
So that is just how many peopleare searching for that keyword
each month.
How hard is it to rank for thatword?
Vicki (39:32):
Mm.
Okay.
Okay.
That's great.
Um, and then you, so do you docopywriting for your clients, or
do you suggest that people workwith a copywriter to help them
kind of bring all of thistogether?
Kelly Kumler (39:45):
Yeah, I do not write copy myself.
That is just not my strength.
So I
Vicki (39:50):
Okay.
Kelly Kumler (39:51):
tell people ahead of time, you know, do you plan
to write your own copy or doyou, are you going to work with
a copywriter?
Do you need a referral to acopywriter?
Um, because yes, I do.
I am a firm believer in Like,copy comes before design.
Um, I think, like, in my idealworld, it would be, like, brand,
copy, and then website design.
(40:12):
Um, because I think it kind of,like, helps everything flow
together.
Vicki (40:15):
Hello, yeah.
Okay.
Kelly Kumler (40:18):
typically refer people out to other copywriters
unless they plan to write itthemselves.
Vicki (40:25):
Okay.
Okay.
And just curious, because again,all of these things kind of work
together, and they're not.
They're not as obvious to smallbusiness owners that all these
pieces can be kind of parceledtogether to create your message,
which I, it's funny because fora very long time when I first
started my business, I didn'tput a huge emphasis on building
(40:45):
our website and it's changed andthere's been iterations along
the way, but something that I dolike to look.
Acknowledge is that they're inmarketing.
I see this happen a lot.
Just the over analyzing the likeI'm I'm more focused on.
Let's demystify the process sothat it works for everyone.
(41:06):
And I'm curious what your takeis.
If I were to say, Kelly, how dowe demystify the idea of having
a really effective website Forany business.
What what's your take on that?
Kelly Kumler (41:21):
I think it just comes down to like, again, kind
of that overthinking it, like wetend to overthink our own
things, but it's really like goback to making it simple.
Like what is the goal of yourwebsite?
What do you want people to getout of it?
then prioritize that your copymeets that goal and that the
(41:43):
design supports that copy andthat goal.
Um, so it's
Vicki (41:48):
Yeah
Kelly Kumler (41:49):
to, we make it such this like big thing in our
heads, but it really comes downto, are you trying to get more
people to the website?
Are you trying to lead people toa certain page on your website?
Are you trying to lead people toinquire?
Is there a direct purchase link?
You know, like, what do you
Vicki (42:06):
Yep.
Kelly Kumler (42:07):
to do when they get to your site?
Vicki (42:10):
Yes, yeah, I have a lot of conversations about that.
And that's something that I'mspecializing in as a growth
manager is just how can you I.
I think a lot of people that Italk to on a general basis are
like, I want to post on socialmedia, or I know I need a
website, or I know I need thison Google, and blah, blah, blah.
And it's kind of asking thatquestion, well, why?
(42:31):
What are you going to do withit?
So I, I, I agree with you somuch on the idea of building a
customer journey.
Or a, you know, sales peoplecall it funnel, like you can
call it whatever you want, butit's really just answering that
question as directly as you justasked it is, what do you want
people to do when they find you?
Do you want them to, how do youwant them to engage with you?
(42:54):
So it's you, the fun part andthe great part about this is you
get to decide, how are theygoing to interact?
Do you want them to schedule acall with you?
You want them to follow you onsocial?
You want them to download yourfree resource, like what do you
want them to do?
Kelly Kumler (43:06):
hmm.
Vicki (43:07):
so I like your, your demystification suggestion.
Kelly Kumler (43:12):
Just keep it simple.
Yeah.
Vicki (43:17):
used that.
I was talking to some highschoolers and I said something
about kiss and I was like, youknow, keep it simple, stupid.
And then I thought, probablyshouldn't call high school kids
stupid but But they liked theanalogy.
They liked it.
Um, okay.
So that's amazing.
So I know we talked a little bitabout.
Um, like business owners who arenewer to the game are just
starting out.
(43:38):
Um, but let's talk about thatnext step, like the ones who are
up leveling and the ones thatyou particularly work with that
are saying, I know I needsomething different.
What is that?
Where, where do you get to inyour business that then you
decide, you know what, I need towork with Kelly because I need
to show up in a different way.
Like what is that stage thatthose business owners are in
(43:58):
that typically call on you tohelp them with that growth.
Kelly Kumler (44:02):
most of the clients that I work with, they
have been in business for maybea couple of years, you know,
like I would say three to fiveyears is kind of like that sweet
spot where they
Vicki (44:12):
Okay.
Kelly Kumler (44:13):
DIY things up until this point and it has
worked enough.
You know, everything is goodenough.
Vicki (44:19):
Yeah.
Kelly Kumler (44:20):
at this point where it's like, okay, well, I
want to raise my prices or Iwant to start offering these
grander packages, whatever itmay
Vicki (44:29):
Yeah.
Yes.
Yeah.
Kelly Kumler (44:47):
representation as well as the, you know, brand
personality that goes behind it.
Um, and how you can really showup online to, you know, these,
you know, new clients that youwant to be attracting that you
are ready for them.
Vicki (45:05):
Yeah, okay.
Okay, great.
And I asked this earlier, um,but I didn't get too deep into
it, but you were saying that oneof a, a big way that you find
your clients is throughInstagram.
So what is, what has been yourcontent strategy in connecting
with people that, that need yourservices, that, that need, you
(45:26):
know, what, what you'reoffering?
Kelly Kumler (45:28):
Yeah.
I mean, I think initially it waslike, I'm just going to go
follow a bunch of people andthen they follow me back.
And then like,
Vicki (45:36):
Yeah.
Kelly Kumler (45:37):
go.
And got a few clients that way,but it certainly has evolved
over time.
Um, I do, I actually work with,um, someone that helps.
me plan my content.
So she is definitely
Vicki (45:48):
Okay.
Kelly Kumler (45:48):
behind my strategy because I was so like burnt out
from that.
Like, what do I think of next?
What am I saying next?
Um,
Vicki (45:56):
Yeah.
Kelly Kumler (45:56):
ultimately I try and pair like, you know, free
tips, um, with like some salesin there and really just like
trying to make connections.
Um, it is like the biggest thingthat I've learned from, I think,
especially from.
Like my Instagram marketing isthat marketing isn't about like,
(46:19):
look at me, look at me, buythis.
It's about like, when you thinkof this, you're going to think
of me.
Um,
Vicki (46:26):
Um,
Kelly Kumler (46:27):
our approach to
Vicki (46:29):
Yeah, another demystification.
I love it.
(46:50):
You don't need to have thesesuper fancy edited.
Reels with like super salesyscripty stuff.
It's just sharing yourknowledge.
How can you be of service andYou know being a resource to
whoever is gonna find you
Kelly Kumler (47:09):
absolutely.
Vicki (47:10):
Yeah, well, I love this, Kelly.
You've shared so many, like,golden nuggets in this interview
today, of things that are suchgreat takeaways to someone who
is looking to turn a side hustleinto their own business, for
business owners who want to bemore thoughtful about their
branding and their websites thatthey're putting out there, which
(47:31):
ultimately helps them grow theirbusiness, but also, but make
really better connections withthe customers that need them
badly.
So I'm so grateful for your timetoday and so thankful for
everything that you shared.
I will drop all of Kelly'sinformation in the episode
description.
So if you are looking to levelup your website, if you want to
(47:52):
talk about SEO expertise, shewould be the one to talk to and
I want to make sure that I canbe that conduit, conduit to
connect you.
Kelly Kumler (47:59):
Yeah.
Thank you so much for having me.
This was very fun.
Vicki (48:03):
Thanks again for listening to another episode of
the Vicki CORIs podcast.
I am so honored that you chooseto spend an hour of your week
with me every week.
If you like what you hear, youwanna continue listening, it
would mean so much if youdropped a review wherever it is
that you're listening topodcasts and subscribe on what.
Ever platform that suits youbest.
(48:25):
Thank you so much again, and ifyou want more content being part
of the community, you can headover to vicki coris.com,
subscribe to my newsletter, andstay in touch that way.
I hope you have an amazing week,and I will see you back next
week.
Good.
Vicki (00:55):
all too well.
Meet Kelly, a show it fanatic,font obsessed designer, and full
blown SEO nerd who transformedher burnout into a thriving
brand and web design business.
After seven years as anelementary school teacher, Kelly
started designing digitalresources, first for herself,
then for her fellow educators,and finally for small businesses
(01:16):
in the wedding industry.
What started as a side projectsoon became her full time
passion, helping creativesattract and book their dream
clients.
Now, as the founder of KellyRyan Co., she's all about
helping florists, weddingplanners, and photographers
Build premium brands, stunningwebsites, and SEO driven content
that gets results.
(01:37):
If you're ready to level up youronline presence and turn clicks
into clients, stick aroundbecause this is the episode for
you.
So let's dive in.
Hey, Kelly.
How are you?
Kelly Kumler (01:47):
How are you?
Vicki (01:48):
Great.
I'm so happy to have you here.
Kelly Kumler (01:51):
Yeah.
Thank you so much for having me.
I'm excited.
Vicki (01:54):
Absolutely.
Something that inspires me andhas always inspired me as I've
started multiple businesses inthe past seven or eight years is
the stories of.
Those who have kind of listenedto their intuition and said I
know there's something differentthat I meant to do and your
story is no different than that.
(02:16):
So you started as a teacher, youhave since left the education
field and I want to know whenthat happened for you, what was
the turning point that made yousay, you know what, I don't feel
connected to this and I want totry something different.
Kelly Kumler (02:32):
Yeah, so I had started, like you said, like,
started creating digitalresources, um, kind of as this,
like, side hustle to teaching,which is so common in the
teaching world.
Like, almost every teacher Iknew had some kind of, like,
side income, right?
Um, and so I started doing thatprobably a year three of
(02:52):
teaching.
Um, but I never really thoughtlike, oh, I would take this and
leave the classroom with it.
Um, but then as I had my firstson in 2021 and like really
started to understand thatbalance or lack thereof between
like trying to be a mom andtrying to be a good teacher and
(03:15):
I just kept feeling that itchgot stronger to be like what
there's got to be something moreout there um something where I
can actually Live a life and doboth because I knew I didn't
want
Vicki (03:29):
Yeah.
Kelly Kumler (03:30):
stay at home mom.
Um, so I was trying to figureout like what that was going to
be.
So took my, you know, creativeexperience from teaching and
turned it into my, my full timegig now.
Vicki (03:45):
So, when you were doing this on the side, like you said
you were teaching, what weresome of the things that you were
doing when it was solely a sidehustle?
Kelly Kumler (03:52):
So I started by making resources for a website
called Teachers Pay Teachers,um, so you like, I, I'm like, if
you're familiar with it,
Vicki (04:00):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Kelly Kumler (04:02):
different resources that teachers can buy
and then use in their classroom,and through that, I kind of
built this whole following of,um, other online teacherpreneurs
and started then making logosfor these teachers for their
teachers pay teachers shops.
So that's where I startedgetting into the understanding
(04:22):
of like, why a logo matters anddesign and like, how do you even
do these design things online?
Um, and started making thoseconnections through that while I
was still teaching.
Vicki (04:37):
There are two things about what you just shared that
I really love.
Number one is, and I, and I'llask you because I do want to get
clarification for the audiencelistening is, did you have
design background?
Did you graduate with like agraphic design degree in
addition to education or wasthis something you just taught
yourself?
Kelly Kumler (04:56):
Yeah, no, I, um, was a psychology major, and then
went on and got my master's ineducation, so there was no
formal design experience.
I do remember, like, in highschool, I would sit there, like,
doodling, particularly words andletters.
Like, I was obsessed with likefonts and typography.
And I thought from then, likeI'm going to be a graphic
(05:18):
designer one day, but it waslike
Vicki (05:20):
Yeah.
Kelly Kumler (05:21):
things that felt so unattainable.
Like I'm not artistic enough.
I can't make that
Vicki (05:25):
Mm.
Kelly Kumler (05:26):
Um, and so then it kind of took, know, like 15
years for it to come back
Vicki (05:32):
Yeah, yeah, it's, it's that trapped idea that we
unfortunately live in that youneed some kind of formal
training or education to beconsidered an expert instead of
putting the emphasis on thedoing and I think we see that a
lot with the student loan crisisand people who were like, I
(05:52):
graduated with 120, 000 ofstudent loan debt, and I still
have no idea what I want to do.
And, but maybe I'll go to gradschool or maybe I'll get my
doctorate and not having adirection to back that up.
Not that we don't need doctorsand like, you know, people with
master's degrees in the worldbecause we do.
But I think a lot of timespeople are waiting for that to
(06:16):
be their permission slip ofexpertise instead of saying, why
don't I just.
Try this, because I like it, andmaybe it can turn into
something.
Kelly Kumler (06:26):
Yeah, absolutely.
It's so, like, it's such amental block, I think, where we,
if you, like, go back tothinking what were the things
you wanted to do when you wereyounger, and then, like, what
stopped you from doing it?
doing those things.
Like, some
Vicki (06:40):
Yeah.
Kelly Kumler (06:41):
it's like, well, I don't want to do that at all
anymore.
But, um,
Vicki (06:45):
Yeah.
Kelly Kumler (06:46):
those ideas were there at one point because you
felt some kind of calling tothem.
Vicki (06:52):
Yes.
I believe in that so strongly.
And, so, did you have thatmoment of shedding your mental
block to get into that new phaseof, you know, like how Stella
got her groove back?
How'd you get your groove intothinking, this is, this is who I
am now?
Kelly Kumler (07:07):
Yeah, I mean, I think it started because I had
it as a side hustle.
I wasn't relying on it as a formof income.
It was just kind of like anextra fun thing to do.
And it's like so funny to thinklike the first logos that I
made, first of all, the firstones were free.
Like I was like reaching out topeople like, can I do this for
you for free?
(07:28):
then, um, I started charginglike 25, you know, 40, which now
is like
Vicki (07:35):
Yeah.
Mm hmm.
Mm hmm.
Kelly Kumler (07:41):
It kind of like just took over time for me to
understand that and I think thelike biggest jump when I had to
like really shed that previousmindset of like I can't do this
Vicki (07:53):
Mm hmm.
Hmm.
Yeah.
Kelly Kumler (08:18):
it.
I'm going to figure it out.
So
Vicki (08:20):
Yeah.
Kelly Kumler (08:21):
like the biggest.
I have to moment.
Vicki (08:24):
Yeah, yeah, and you, it sounds like you kind of leveled
up along the way, which it is,it is very humbling to do a lot
of work for free, and I've doneit in every single business that
I've started, and this is mythird, where you, You
depressurize the situation and,um, and I think if there's good
(08:47):
and bad things, it helps youhone in on the things that
you're good at while you cantake the pressure off.
But I do think sometimes it setsthe tone of like, oh, the person
you're working for maybe doesn'ttake it as seriously when
Really, you know, this workingin a, in a professional services
environment, like both peoplehave to be invested, but I, it,
(09:09):
there is a time and a placebecause I'm sure at each level,
it's like, I charge 25, then Icharge 500 and now for a
website, 5, 000, like whateverthat range is that you go up,
it's your skills are increasingas you are charging more.
So I think there's a reallygreat strategy to that.
(09:30):
And.
And being really mindful withyour overall experience.
Kelly Kumler (09:37):
Yeah.
I think that there's definitelylike different schools of
thought on that specifically,you know, some people are like,
no charge your worth, likeimmediately,
Vicki (09:47):
Yeah.
Kelly Kumler (09:47):
I personally am definitely more of like, uh, let
me like inch things up over timeand kind of see where that line
is, um, to where like my idealclient meets.
My services and value.
Um, but it can definitely, youcan have different ways of going
about it for sure.
Vicki (10:08):
Yeah.
I agree.
I agree.
So when you decided that you'regonna do this full time, like
you're a new mom You are feelingthe pressures of going back to
work full time, which I'm anewer mom to and I feel the same
way.
And just being, it's such an eyeopening experience of being sold
(10:29):
kind of a bill of goods that youcan do everything.
You can be the best mom and havea great career and still do
things at home.
And unfortunately, like, Thereis a lot of that silent work
that falls on being a mom andbeing a woman.
And I think, I learned that veryearly as trying to juggle it
(10:52):
all.
It just creates more of anemotional and mental pain,
frankly, you know?
Like you're just in this placewhere you're overthinking
everything.
And so I'm curious, since thatseems to be the catalyst for
you, is when in that When inthat period of your, of time did
you say I'm gonna do this fulltime and maybe you're not doing
(11:14):
it full time too So I'd beinterested to know was this
something you chose to do simplybecause it wasn't 40 hours
required to sit in a classroomfrom 7 to 3 or whatever.
Kelly Kumler (11:25):
Yeah, so I, I would call this my full time
gig, but, um, I really workbetween the hours of like 9 a.
m.
and like 2 p.
m., um, because I still do dropoff and pick up most days for
the kids.
My
Vicki (11:40):
Yeah.
Kelly Kumler (11:41):
too, but, um, so it's like.
My full time job, but stillnothing compared to like the
hours I put in while teaching,but that
Vicki (11:49):
Yeah.
Kelly Kumler (11:49):
right?
Like to have that option to like
Vicki (11:53):
Yeah
Kelly Kumler (11:54):
own schedule.
Um, but yeah, I was really, I,so my son was born in July, so
he's a summer baby and I wentback to teaching that year.
And it was by January that myhusband and I were like, this is
not working.
Like I am getting called out ofclass.
weekly and keep in mind this was2021 so like COVID was
Vicki (12:17):
Yeah
Kelly Kumler (12:17):
going and daycares were still getting shut down
because of COVID exposures andthings like so I was being
pulled in so many directionsthat I was just like this is not
I can't even enjoy being a mom Ican't enjoy being a teacher I
was so overwhelmed andoverworked that there was like
nothing that I could like pointto and be like oh this is going
(12:38):
well you know
Vicki (12:39):
Yeah.
Mhm.
At least I have this.
Kelly Kumler (12:42):
Yes.
Yeah.
It was like, Oh my gosh, thereis none of that.
So yeah, it was, um, by Januaryand initially we, I had started
applying to other jobs, like,okay, I'll just
Vicki (12:52):
Okay.
Bye.
Kelly Kumler (12:53):
remote and I'll do that.
then after spending so much timeapplying to jobs, you know, you
just like apply to everything.
And getting really like nothingback, like no traction, barely
any even emails back.
I
Vicki (13:06):
Yeah.
Kelly Kumler (13:07):
why am I wasting my time doing this when I should
just be working for myself?
And fortunately, my husband'slike the hype person for me.
And he's like, you should, you
Vicki (13:18):
Amazing.
Kelly Kumler (13:19):
business owner.
So
Vicki (13:21):
Aw.
Kelly Kumler (13:21):
he really like pushed me into giving it a shot.
So,
Vicki (13:26):
And how long was that period of time where you started
making your own designs onTeachers Pay Teachers to fast
forward to 20, at this point,2022, where you're, you know,
leaning into this full time?
Kelly Kumler (13:39):
Yeah, um, let's see, I think I started making
resources for Teachers PayTeachers in probably 2018.
I think I actually opened myshop, I started making things
for my own class 2018 and then Iopened my own like Teachers Pay
Teachers shop in 2019.
Vicki (13:58):
Wow.
Kelly Kumler (13:58):
then it probably was like a year of doing that
before I actually got into likethe logo design side of things.
Vicki (14:04):
Mm hmm.
Kelly Kumler (14:06):
it was definitely like a gradual.
progression.
Vicki (14:10):
Wow.
I mean, that's not that long ofa time, honestly, to, to say, I
want to move into this.
And I, I, the reason why I wantto point it out is something
that I've dealt with in my ownpath is thinking that this work
has to be a grind and you haveto do it for years and years and
years instead of building areally mindful goal.
(14:34):
process, which is, I'm going todo this, uh, part time.
I'm going to do this as my sidehustle.
Okay, I have the confidence nowthat I know I can turn this into
a full time venture for myself.
So, I'm glad that you sharedthat, because honestly, even
though you have built thisreally strategically, I think it
helps other people who mightthink that it's a lot longer of
(14:56):
a transition before you canstart working for yourself full
time.
Kelly Kumler (15:00):
Yeah.
And I will say that, like, I wasdefinitely not like making,
replacing my income by thatpoint.
Vicki (15:06):
Yeah.
Kelly Kumler (15:07):
but it was just this moment of like, I have to
do this now, so I better find away to replace my income.
Um,
Vicki (15:15):
Yeah.
Kelly Kumler (15:16):
even, even in that like full time, it's taken time
to build that revenue.
Um, but it was, it was more oflike the emotional feeling
behind it that I was like, youknow, I wasn't ready in the
sense that I had the incomecoming in from this side hustle,
(15:38):
I had to do it at that time.
Vicki (15:40):
Yeah, yeah, that's the thing.
That's that's opening your mindto the fact that you it's not a
equal exchange.
Sometimes it's not a one for oneand you wait.
I mean, there are people whocould wait.
You literally could wait decadesto say I'm going to wait until
this side hustle or whatever itis replaces my full income at
this corporate job that youhate.
(16:01):
So you could wait and waste allthose years disliking something,
or you could make that change,realize and accept that okay,
I'm earning less, but I have somuch more time to figure out how
to earn more, how to level up,how to move into that next
stage.
So I'm glad that you shared thatbecause I don't think, um, I
think that's what holds a lot ofpeople back from take, leaning
(16:25):
into something more full time ormore seriously.
Kelly Kumler (16:27):
Yeah.
Vicki (16:29):
And I'm curious, what would you say is the biggest
skill that you took away fromyour teaching career that you
use every day in yourentrepreneur life?
Kelly Kumler (16:40):
Oh my gosh.
That's such a hard one becauseit feels so different even
though I know
Vicki (16:45):
Yeah.
Kelly Kumler (16:45):
So connected, uh, it's probably just my ability to
like organize my time, honestly,um, you know, within teaching,
it's like, you have 5 millionthings that need to be
accomplished
Vicki (16:59):
Yeah.
Kelly Kumler (16:59):
the year.
And sometimes you are inpositions at different schools
or with different teams thathave that like really organized,
like, okay, we're going to hitthis during this period and this
during this period and whatever.
But sometimes it's like, Thishas to be accomplished by the
end of the year, welcome toAugust, figure
Vicki (17:17):
Uh huh.
Kelly Kumler (17:17):
going to go.
Um, and so then that has reallylike helped me figure out, know,
working on client projects, liketogether scope and sequence and
what is going to make sense ofwhat needs to happen before they
get to me and what I need to dobefore they can move on to
someone else.
Um, and just kind of the wholelike process of a project.
Vicki (17:42):
Amazing, yeah.
I, this is a question that comesup a lot, and it comes up as I
continue to talk to clients, um,in being more of a marketing
freelancer.
And it's, how do you transitionfrom Um, kind of taking projects
one on one as they come whereyou're not as dependent on
(18:05):
having, you know, regular incomeor taking on regular projects.
And so what I'm getting at andI, um, what I'm getting at is
that sales strategy behindfinding your people and now you
specialize in a, in a specificindustry, which I want to talk
about in detail in just a fewminutes.
But I'm curious for you, whathas been the best path in
(18:27):
finding clients and maybe doingrepeat projects or getting
referrals and things like that?
Kelly Kumler (18:33):
Yeah, so I know some people, you know, really
rely on retainers versusprojects or a mix of both.
Um, I really do like a perproject basis.
It's just, I have found that'slike the way that my brain works
the best is like, I like a startdate.
I like an end date and we'removing on.
Um, but I have had.
(18:54):
know, clients that come back,either they come to me for a
brand and then they come backlater for a website or some of
my clients are also multibusiness owners, you know, like
yourself, where it's like,they'll come to me for one
business and then later they'relike, Hey, actually there's
other business needs thismakeover.
Vicki (19:12):
Yeah.
Kelly Kumler (19:13):
and so I think there's like so many.
Um, you know, obviously so manydifferent ways that you can go
about it, but for me, I thinkhaving like a strong client
experience, um, really helps inmaking sure that people are
referring you to
Vicki (19:29):
Yeah.
Kelly Kumler (19:30):
and family.
Um, and also that they wouldcome back to you if they need
additional work.
Um, so probably like my biggestsource of clients is actually
Vicki (19:42):
Okay.
Kelly Kumler (19:42):
um, referrals or like repeats.
Vicki (19:45):
Amazing.
Okay, great.
I want to talk about how you usesocial in your business too.
Specifically Instagram, butbefore we do, um I I do want to
dive into how you found yourniche.
So you work with specificallywedding professionals.
It's a, that's a leap, right?
From your, your education nichethat you used to be in.
(20:08):
So did you pick that kind ofnaturally?
Did you, were you moreintentional?
Was it an accident?
Like, how did you come to pickyour niche and, and how has that
helped you in just, uh, youknow, how you build your
services?
Kelly Kumler (20:21):
Yeah, so I, um, again, like another little side
hustle I picked up whileteaching, um, I started, um,
designing wedding stationery andjust like putting it on Etsy.
and this was while I wasengaged, so I was like, oh, you
know.
This is a fun thing and justkind of again like had some of
the design experience so I kindof paired it with this
(20:44):
stationery world, um, andthrough that just sort of
connecting with people again onInstagram that were in like my
local wedding.
community.
and so that business did notlast long.
COVID came around literallythree months after I started the
business, COVID hit.
And so I was just kind of like,eh, I don't really love this
(21:05):
that much anyways.
Vicki (21:06):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Kelly Kumler (21:30):
I did, like, language and speech
pathologists.
I did, um, uh, lawyers.
Um, and then like from thatfirst year of clients, though,
almost all of them were withinthe wedding industry.
You know, I had these like fewoutliers, but still like there
(21:50):
was kind of this common thread.
So from that point, I was justlike, you know, I might as well
like lean into this a littlebit.
And.
understand the industry so thatI can give people the best,
advice and as they're buildingtheir marketing.
Um, and so it was kind of justlike a natural fit and I like
(22:11):
working with creative people.
So it worked
Vicki (22:14):
Yeah.
That's amazing.
I love that there's all of theselittle pockets in your story
too, Kelly, of you just goingfor it.
It's not like I just spent thistime like designing for years
and years.
It's like, no, I design thisstationary.
Stationary.
I tried it out.
I network with people who werein the wedding industry, which.
(22:34):
I truly believe everything isconnected, like every step that
you take, everything you learn,anyone you meet is all someone
that can come back around andjust be there for that next
phase or for that, you know,like a networking opportunity I
think is incredible because youdon't know when the Someone's
going to help you out or whenyou'll have the ability to help
someone or serve someone in anew way So I love that you just
(22:57):
jumped into that And youmentioned something of like
being Very connected to justcreatives that are in the
wedding industry and you actingas a creative what you know What
I know to be true is it would begreat if running a business is
all about like bright colors andideas and like picking fonts.
(23:18):
We know that there's so muchmore to that.
So when it comes to running thebusiness side, like when do I
pay my taxes or how to set up asystem to invoice and have
contracts so that everyone knowsthere's a start date, there's an
end date, what helped you on thebusiness side the most as you
(23:39):
were kind of figuring that outin your entrepreneur role?
Kelly Kumler (23:43):
Yeah, I really, it became like from my time of
doing all of this in a
Vicki (23:50):
Yeah.
Kelly Kumler (23:51):
um, you know, I learned a lot about marketing
from my teacher's paid teacher'sum, and just like how to market
these products I was making.
Um, I also learned so much aboutthe actual, like behind the
scenes of a business in my justfew months in wedding
Vicki (24:11):
Yeah.
Kelly Kumler (24:12):
because it was during COVID, you know, I ended
up having some free time.
So I
Vicki (24:18):
Yeah.
Kelly Kumler (24:19):
going through, you know, business courses and just
like, I would listen to mybusiness podcasts and like
trying to learn what the heckmarketing even was while I
Vicki (24:30):
Yeah.
Kelly Kumler (24:31):
the room with my newborn baby who would not sleep
by himself and would only sleepon me.
So I've been like, put in myAirPods and just like, sit there
holding the baby and learning
Vicki (24:40):
It's a great trick.
Kelly Kumler (24:42):
Yeah.
Vicki (24:42):
I love that.
Kelly Kumler (24:43):
you just can't get any, and I'm such a, like, I'm
such an Enneagram three, likeI'd have to do, keep doing
something.
So that was such a hard case forme.
I was like, what?
I just sit in this room and holdthis baby and don't do anything.
You know, And so probably like atoxic trait, but that's where I,
you know, popped in the AirPodsand made some
Vicki (25:03):
Yeah.
Do you have any favorites or anysuggestions of the podcasts you
listen to or any business booksthat really, like, stuck out to
you as being really helpful?
Kelly Kumler (25:14):
Yeah, um, gosh, there's like so many podcasts
that I have listened to likesingle episodes of over time,
but there are
Vicki (25:21):
Yeah.
Kelly Kumler (25:22):
books that I love and like go back to.
And one is, um,
Vicki (25:28):
Okay.
Kelly Kumler (25:29):
So that is like.
setting up, you know, yourbanks, your bank accounts and
your money to make sure that youare paying yourself.
Because was something I was soforeign to, like, how do I pay
myself?
What does that mean?
And really, you know, ultimatelyI was leaving my career to take
this job so that I could paymyself in a way that was life.
(25:52):
So that one I
Vicki (25:53):
Yeah.
Kelly Kumler (25:54):
The other is, um, building a story brand.
So that is all about like, it'sreally like the basis of your
marketing and just your
Vicki (26:04):
Okay.
Kelly Kumler (26:05):
needs to have a story to it and like
Vicki (26:08):
Transcripts provided by Transcription Outsourcing, LLC.
Kelly Kumler (26:15):
all the touch points where
Vicki (26:16):
Yeah, I love that.
I love that.
And the, I couldn't agree moreabout storytelling, and it's
something that I think has, Ididn't know it at the time, but
has always come really naturalto me, like picking pieces out
of my life and thinking, Oh,this is how I, Get that this
connects or this is how I canpush this thing forward and uh,
(26:40):
like my example is that when I Idid an accelerator program like
five years ago, it was rightbefore kovat and They had this
huge pitch competition at theend.
So you spent like 12 weeks or solearning all these different
areas of business and one bigarea was marketing and branding.
(27:02):
And so they were training us onlike how you do a proper pitch,
which I had never done before inasking for money or anything
like that.
So, um, that, that emphasis onthe emotional connection that is
in your brand and every singlebusiness that was in this
accelerator program had one.
I mean, we were in there forselling cookie dough for God's
(27:24):
sakes, like finding an emotionalconnection with cookie dough.
It's not.
It wasn't like so topical thatyou could find it, but I found
that I was really good at kindof uncovering that.
And so that's really what Ipreach now when I talk to my
clients is that your socialmedia, your emails, everything
needs to be fed with that.
(27:47):
The thread of your storyline.
What is it like?
What inspired you to leave yourcorporate job and start this
business?
Because that is that's thestorytelling that you want that
people will really connect to.
Kelly Kumler (27:59):
Mm
Vicki (27:59):
So I, um, I'm glad that you found that too, because
it's.
It is something that's so oftenoverlooked, um, when you're a
solopreneur or a small businessowner that doesn't have a team
that, that comes natural to.
You know, you really have tostart to like pluck out those
details to make it make sense toyour audience and ultimately why
someone would buy from you.
Kelly Kumler (28:21):
Yeah, and I think especially, like, it's so hard
to do for yourself, like, youknow,
Vicki (28:28):
Mm hmm.
Kelly Kumler (28:29):
trying to look at your own story and get that out
could be So like you get sooverwhelmed by it.
I mean,
Vicki (28:36):
Yeah.
Kelly Kumler (28:37):
a rebrand and obviously like that's something
that I do and I hired someoneelse because I was like, I am
too close to it.
Like I'm going to overthinkevery step of this way.
Like for client work, I can noproblem put these things
together.
But like when it
Vicki (28:52):
Yeah.
Kelly Kumler (28:52):
my own business, I overthink it and I get way too
like stuck in my head.
And I think so many of us aslike, So entrepreneurs or like
small business owners do thesame thing where it's hard to
like inside at your own story.
Vicki (29:08):
Yeah.
So what did that teach you nowthat you're going through a
rebrand?
What did you learn fromoutsourcing and bringing in
basically a you to do that sameexercise for yourself?
Kelly Kumler (29:18):
Yeah, I mean, fortunately, I worked with
people, like almost everyone,because I hired multiple people
for different parts of thisrebrand, um,
Vicki (29:26):
Okay.
Kelly Kumler (29:26):
almost everyone that I hired is someone I had
worked with previously, so Iknew they were going to be
great, um, and I didn't have to,like, over that and, like,
Vicki (29:39):
Yeah.
Kelly Kumler (29:39):
oh my gosh, it's what if it's not as great as I
would do it?
Like I was not
Vicki (29:43):
Yeah.
Kelly Kumler (29:44):
because I already knew that I would like overpick
every little thing Myself and
Vicki (29:50):
Okay.
Kelly Kumler (29:50):
these external idea thinker people
Vicki (29:55):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Kelly Kumler (29:59):
Yeah, and it was just like if you were going to
any time that you're trying tolike outsource anything And like
obviously look at their work,but then also like try and get
to know them first.
You know, you're not alwaysgoing to have the luxury that I
had of like having worked withthese people before on like
Vicki (30:16):
Yeah.
Kelly Kumler (30:17):
or like client projects.
Um, but in, this case like thatgoing into it, knowing how each
of them worked and like theirstyle and what I could expect
out of it was so big.
Vicki (30:34):
That's amazing.
And to have someone that youtrust and that you can validate
their work.
And I think it's also taking alittle bit of yourself out of it
and saying, I'm going to trustthe process and I know how to
guide these people, but I'mgoing to give creative freedom
to make it make sense.
And I think this is kind of agood.
(30:55):
Segway into the next part of ourinterview, which is giving some
really practical tips and tipsthat are, I would say, like
guides that small businesses orsolopreneurs can use as they
develop their own brandingstrategy.
And I like to be fair that noteveryone.
Um, is either focusing onbranding or can afford a, uh,
(31:19):
you know, a big rebrand package.
A lot of times, and you knowthis too, when you start your
business, you're doing so manythings on your own.
So maybe you can talk about thatfrom the lens of someone who
they're not ready to do a fullinvestment, but they still are.
wanting to show up in the rightway to connect with their
(31:39):
dreamiest clients.
So if we just say from a baselevel, like what are two or
three things that you would sayyou have to have as you're
building your brand as a new,we'll say newer business owner?
Kelly Kumler (31:52):
Yeah, I think the very first thing is really
understand who you want to workwith your ideal client, your
ideal audience, and really tryand put together like as much
information about this person orgroup of people as you can.
And I know that at first thatseems so weird because you're
(32:13):
like, this is just like a madeup person.
But you want to try andunderstand everything about
them.
Like where are they spendingtheir time?
Are they on Instagram?
Are they going to be at morelike in person events?
You know, this is all thenleading to how are you going to
be marketing your business?
Vicki (32:30):
Mm hmm.
Okay.
Kelly Kumler (32:34):
Client is always my suggested first step.
Um, another thing that Irecommend for anyone that's in
that, like through therebranding, or I mean, maybe
even just establishing yourbrand to begin with, um, is
trying to, um, understand likewhere.
(32:55):
How you're different.
So this is one area that I likelove to turn to Chat GPT or AI
Vicki (33:03):
Yeah.
Kelly Kumler (33:03):
I will literally go and I do this for clients,
too Like I have my clients giveme their top competitors and
then I will go collect thosecompetitors you know, social
media accounts, their websites,any bit
Vicki (33:16):
Okay.
Wow.
Kelly Kumler (33:37):
yourself and you kind of need that outside
perspective,
Vicki (33:41):
Yeah.
Kelly Kumler (33:42):
know, use the robots.
Vicki (33:44):
Oh, I love it.
And ChatGPT, yes, should beeveryone's best friend.
I personally don't think thatit's going to replace the jobs
of creatives because there is,there are limitations that
anyone who has used it.
Often knows, um, but the jolt ofinspiration that you get from
(34:05):
using AI in that exact way, it'sunmatched.
I mean, it is, it's phenomenaland I, that's what I recommend
to business owners all the time.
Um, if you're feeling stuck, ifyou need to create a content
strategy, that's such a goodplace to start.
It doesn't mean you rely on itfor everything, but you're
right.
Positioning is such a goodexample because you don't have
(34:26):
time to do.
Marketing analytics on everysingle one of your cust or, uh,
your competitors, like you'renot Target, you know, you are
someone who is doing a millionthings, so make it easier for
yourself.
Kelly Kumler (34:39):
Yeah, absolutely.
And yes, of course, like when Iam doing it for my own clients,
I'm not like, you know, spit itout and then just copy paste
into a document and send tothem.
Vicki (34:49):
Yeah,
Kelly Kumler (34:49):
so much more analysis behind it, right?
But like, if you are doing it onyour own, that's such a good
starting point just to
Vicki (34:56):
yeah.
Kelly Kumler (34:57):
the things that you don't even recognize.
You know, you are surrounded byyour competitors all the time.
Um, especially if you're in likea local market, like, um, like a
lot of my clients in the weddingindustry, you know, most of
their competitors are local tothem.
And so they're like seeing theircontent all the time.
They're seeing their work allthe time.
And it's hard to then like putyourself away from it and be
(35:20):
like, Oh, but look, they dothat.
And you do this and
Vicki (35:24):
Yeah.
Kelly Kumler (35:25):
out.
Vicki (35:26):
I think that's really true.
What is one common mistake thatyou see small business owners
make when it comes to theirwebsites specifically?
And how do you help them rightthat wrong?
Yeah.
Yeah.
Kelly Kumler (35:48):
about what they do.
So oftentimes it's like, welcometo my website.
Um, or like, welcome to mybusiness name.
And that doesn't really tell thevisitor anything about who you
are.
You're assuming that theyalready know who you are when
they get to your website.
If you're, you know, having somekind of headline like that.
(36:09):
Whereas I recommend one, yourheadline is like the best chance
to include keywords for SEO.
Um, but also to really likeimmediately call out who you
are, what you do, where you doit, like photographer based in
Boise, Idaho.
What like something so simplelike that doesn't need to be a
(36:30):
paragraph.
It's just like a line, but itimmediately tells people who you
are and what you do.
Vicki (36:37):
That's amazing.
Okay, and then from a designperspective, what insights do
you have for just a website nono?
Like, take this out of yourwebsite right now.
Kelly Kumler (36:47):
Um, probably the websites I see that are built
like the, they have like oneformat the whole way down the
page.
It's like
Vicki (36:58):
Mm,
Kelly Kumler (36:58):
image on the right, text on the left, the
whole way down.
Um,
Vicki (37:02):
okay,
Kelly Kumler (37:03):
gets really clunky for the human eye.
And we like to see.
Skim things, you know, that'slike our natural thing is to
like go through and skim first,and then if we see
Vicki (37:12):
yeah.
Kelly Kumler (37:13):
that we find useful, then we'll stop and read
it.
So if you have just likeparagraphs of text, no one's
gonna stop and read that.
You need to like split thoseparagraphs up into different
digestible sections.
Vicki (37:28):
Okay.
Okay, great.
And I, I know this from yourstory that you kind of soon
learned after you starteddesigning websites that SEO is
really important to yourclients, and so you leaned into
that in offering it as anadditional service.
So, again, for those newer SEO,search engine optimization, So
(37:49):
for those that are not supertechie like myself, um, what,
what are some very simple SEOtechniques that you can build
into your website, but also intoyour overall branding strategy?
So maybe how is SEO important tosocial media or anything else
that, that we might be using?
Kelly Kumler (38:08):
Yeah.
So SEO really, um, starts withkeyword research and
understanding what keywordspeople are actually looking for.
And so once you do some of thatresearch, you can use those
keywords in your website, onyour Instagram and Pinterest
really all over because peopleare looking for those same
keywords and all of thesedifferent platforms.
(38:31):
Um, Keyword research is like,you know, you could go into a
whole, like 12 step process ofhow to go about it.
But I will say that my favoritetool to use is called Uber
Suggest and they do have a freeversion.
So if you are interested in liketrying to get into keyword
research and just finding somekeywords that should be used
(38:52):
within your website or in yourcontent, I always recommend
starting there.
Vicki (38:57):
Amazing.
I think that's, I'm glad thatyou brought that up because that
was going to be one of my nextquestions is, um, without having
a 12 page document of whatkeywords work best, is there an
easier way to, to do that?
So it sounds like Ubersuggest isa really great tool to just
start from a basic level.
Kelly Kumler (39:12):
Yeah, and they're going to tell you like, it's
probably again, like if you'renot familiar with it, it might
feel overwhelming, but if youput in a keyword, it's going to
spit out some information and Isay pay attention to the two
numbers, which is volume and SEOdifficulty.
So that is just how many peopleare searching for that keyword
each month.
How hard is it to rank for thatword?
Vicki (39:32):
Mm.
Okay.
Okay.
That's great.
Um, and then you, so do you docopywriting for your clients, or
do you suggest that people workwith a copywriter to help them
kind of bring all of thistogether?
Kelly Kumler (39:45):
Yeah, I do not write copy myself.
That is just not my strength.
So I
Vicki (39:50):
Okay.
Kelly Kumler (39:51):
tell people ahead of time, you know, do you plan
to write your own copy or doyou, are you going to work with
a copywriter?
Do you need a referral to acopywriter?
Um, because yes, I do.
I am a firm believer in Like,copy comes before design.
Um, I think, like, in my idealworld, it would be, like, brand,
copy, and then website design.
(40:12):
Um, because I think it kind of,like, helps everything flow
together.
Vicki (40:15):
Hello, yeah.
Okay.
Kelly Kumler (40:18):
typically refer people out to other copywriters
unless they plan to write itthemselves.
Vicki (40:25):
Okay.
Okay.
And just curious, because again,all of these things kind of work
together, and they're not.
They're not as obvious to smallbusiness owners that all these
pieces can be kind of parceledtogether to create your message,
which I, it's funny because fora very long time when I first
started my business, I didn'tput a huge emphasis on building
(40:45):
our website and it's changed andthere's been iterations along
the way, but something that I dolike to look.
Acknowledge is that they're inmarketing.
I see this happen a lot.
Just the over analyzing the likeI'm I'm more focused on.
Let's demystify the process sothat it works for everyone.
(41:06):
And I'm curious what your takeis.
If I were to say, Kelly, how dowe demystify the idea of having
a really effective website Forany business.
What what's your take on that?
Kelly Kumler (41:21):
I think it just comes down to like, again, kind
of that overthinking it, like wetend to overthink our own
things, but it's really like goback to making it simple.
Like what is the goal of yourwebsite?
What do you want people to getout of it?
then prioritize that your copymeets that goal and that the
(41:43):
design supports that copy andthat goal.
Um, so it's
Vicki (41:48):
Yeah
Kelly Kumler (41:49):
to, we make it such this like big thing in our
heads, but it really comes downto, are you trying to get more
people to the website?
Are you trying to lead people toa certain page on your website?
Are you trying to lead people toinquire?
Is there a direct purchase link?
You know, like, what do you
Vicki (42:06):
Yep.
Kelly Kumler (42:07):
to do when they get to your site?
Vicki (42:10):
Yes, yeah, I have a lot of conversations about that.
And that's something that I'mspecializing in as a growth
manager is just how can you I.
I think a lot of people that Italk to on a general basis are
like, I want to post on socialmedia, or I know I need a
website, or I know I need thison Google, and blah, blah, blah.
And it's kind of asking thatquestion, well, why?
(42:31):
What are you going to do withit?
So I, I, I agree with you somuch on the idea of building a
customer journey.
Or a, you know, sales peoplecall it funnel, like you can
call it whatever you want, butit's really just answering that
question as directly as you justasked it is, what do you want
people to do when they find you?
Do you want them to, how do youwant them to engage with you?
(42:54):
So it's you, the fun part andthe great part about this is you
get to decide, how are theygoing to interact?
Do you want them to schedule acall with you?
You want them to follow you onsocial?
You want them to download yourfree resource, like what do you
want them to do?
Kelly Kumler (43:06):
hmm.
Vicki (43:07):
so I like your, your demystification suggestion.
Kelly Kumler (43:12):
Just keep it simple.
Yeah.
Vicki (43:17):
used that.
I was talking to some highschoolers and I said something
about kiss and I was like, youknow, keep it simple, stupid.
And then I thought, probablyshouldn't call high school kids
stupid but But they liked theanalogy.
They liked it.
Um, okay.
So that's amazing.
So I know we talked a little bitabout.
Um, like business owners who arenewer to the game are just
starting out.
(43:38):
Um, but let's talk about thatnext step, like the ones who are
up leveling and the ones thatyou particularly work with that
are saying, I know I needsomething different.
What is that?
Where, where do you get to inyour business that then you
decide, you know what, I need towork with Kelly because I need
to show up in a different way.
Like what is that stage thatthose business owners are in
(43:58):
that typically call on you tohelp them with that growth.
Kelly Kumler (44:02):
most of the clients that I work with, they
have been in business for maybea couple of years, you know,
like I would say three to fiveyears is kind of like that sweet
spot where they
Vicki (44:12):
Okay.
Kelly Kumler (44:13):
DIY things up until this point and it has
worked enough.
You know, everything is goodenough.
Vicki (44:19):
Yeah.
Kelly Kumler (44:20):
at this point where it's like, okay, well, I
want to raise my prices or Iwant to start offering these
grander packages, whatever itmay
Vicki (44:29):
Yeah.
Yes.
Yeah.
Kelly Kumler (44:47):
representation as well as the, you know, brand
personality that goes behind it.
Um, and how you can really showup online to, you know, these,
you know, new clients that youwant to be attracting that you
are ready for them.
Vicki (45:05):
Yeah, okay.
Okay, great.
And I asked this earlier, um,but I didn't get too deep into
it, but you were saying that oneof a, a big way that you find
your clients is throughInstagram.
So what is, what has been yourcontent strategy in connecting
with people that, that need yourservices, that, that need, you
(45:26):
know, what, what you'reoffering?
Kelly Kumler (45:28):
Yeah.
I mean, I think initially it waslike, I'm just going to go
follow a bunch of people andthen they follow me back.
And then like,
Vicki (45:36):
Yeah.
Kelly Kumler (45:37):
go.
And got a few clients that way,but it certainly has evolved
over time.
Um, I do, I actually work with,um, someone that helps.
me plan my content.
So she is definitely
Vicki (45:48):
Okay.
Kelly Kumler (45:48):
behind my strategy because I was so like burnt out
from that.
Like, what do I think of next?
What am I saying next?
Um,
Vicki (45:56):
Yeah.
Kelly Kumler (45:56):
ultimately I try and pair like, you know, free
tips, um, with like some salesin there and really just like
trying to make connections.
Um, it is like the biggest thingthat I've learned from, I think,
especially from.
Like my Instagram marketing isthat marketing isn't about like,
(46:19):
look at me, look at me, buythis.
It's about like, when you thinkof this, you're going to think
of me.
Um,
Vicki (46:26):
Um,
Kelly Kumler (46:27):
our approach to
Vicki (46:29):
Yeah, another demystification.
I love it.
(46:50):
You don't need to have thesesuper fancy edited.
Reels with like super salesyscripty stuff.
It's just sharing yourknowledge.
How can you be of service andYou know being a resource to
whoever is gonna find you
Kelly Kumler (47:09):
absolutely.
Vicki (47:10):
Yeah, well, I love this, Kelly.
You've shared so many, like,golden nuggets in this interview
today, of things that are suchgreat takeaways to someone who
is looking to turn a side hustleinto their own business, for
business owners who want to bemore thoughtful about their
branding and their websites thatthey're putting out there, which
(47:31):
ultimately helps them grow theirbusiness, but also, but make
really better connections withthe customers that need them
badly.
So I'm so grateful for your timetoday and so thankful for
everything that you shared.
I will drop all of Kelly'sinformation in the episode
description.
So if you are looking to levelup your website, if you want to
(47:52):
talk about SEO expertise, shewould be the one to talk to and
I want to make sure that I canbe that conduit, conduit to
connect you.
Kelly Kumler (47:59):
Yeah.
Thank you so much for having me.
This was very fun.
Vicki (48:03):
Thanks again for listening to another episode of
the Vicki CORIs podcast.
I am so honored that you chooseto spend an hour of your week
with me every week.
If you like what you hear, youwanna continue listening, it
would mean so much if youdropped a review wherever it is
that you're listening topodcasts and subscribe on what.
Ever platform that suits youbest.
(48:25):
Thank you so much again, and ifyou want more content being part
of the community, you can headover to vicki coris.com,
subscribe to my newsletter, andstay in touch that way.
I hope you have an amazing week,and I will see you back next
week.
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