May 9, 2025 • 46 mins
🎨 What happens when creativity collides with purpose? In this episode, we sit down with Jason Garrett — the powerhouse designer behind projects for the Cleveland Cavaliers, the NBA’s Kareem Abdul-Jabbar trophy, and now the Marcus Graham Project — to talk about storytelling that actually moves people.
From his days as a photography major to mentoring the next wave of diverse creatives, Jason shares how he’s using his talents to uplift small and Black-owned businesses, spark civic engagement, and reshape culture through design. We dive into the magic of collaboration, how AI fits into the creative process, and why storytelling is your business’s superpower.
If you're a creator, entrepreneur, or just someone who knows your work has meaning, this episode will light a fire under you.🔥
Connect with Jason here:Â
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/jayg713?utm_source=ig_web_button_share_sheet&igsh=ZDNlZDc0MzIxNw==
Email: jason@marcusgrahamproject.org
Thank you again for tuning into another episode of the Vicki Kotris Podcast! I want to support you, cheer you on a HYPE you up!! If you're celebrating anything (and I mean ANYTHING), send me a DM and let me highlight you on a recent episode.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:48):
Today's episode is all aboutcreativity with purpose, and I
couldn't think of a better guestto dive into that topic than
with Jason Garrett.
Jason is a powerhouse graphicdesigner and creative director
whose work blends culture,strategy, and storytelling in a
way that actually moves people.
He's worked with brands like theCleveland Cavaliers and helped
(01:09):
design the Kareem Abdul-Jabbartrophy for the NBA.
What really sets Jason apart ishow he uses his talent to
elevate small and black ownedbusinesses to drive civic
engagement and mentor the nextgeneration of creatives.
Now working with the MarcusGraham Project, a nonprofit
dedicated to building diversityand marketing and advertising,
Jason is focused on creating forculture and helping others do
(01:32):
the same.
We first met during anaccelerator program where we
competed in a pitch competition.
I really got to witness Jason'smagic when he designed the logo
and brand essence for a companythat I co-founded and recently
sold.
And I am so excited for you tohear his insights on turning
creativity into real impact.
So let's get into it.
(01:53):
Jason, how are you?
What's up?
What's up?
I'm, I'm gonna use that.
I'm gonna find a way to likepull that audio.
Like use it for when I go up onstage or something that got me
hyped.
What's up?
Well, you know, I can be rentedout for other public speaking
engagements just as yourpersonal hype woman.
Whenever you need me, say less,let's do.
(02:15):
Awesome.
So I know what's somethingthat's really important for you
is this idea of creating forculture.
And I don't think that it'salways that apparent to people
of what that actually means andwhat that drives, what that can
create.
So I wanna know for you, likewhat does that mean specifically
to you and how have you embodiedthat in some of the work that
(02:36):
you've recently created?
Yeah, I think, um, you know,culture is a word a lot of times
in my opinion.
I think people use the wordculture, but they don't really.
Oftentimes dissect what cultureis and and how it's built and
where it comes from.
And so anytime I think aboutculture, I think about the food,
the art, the language, the styleof a certain place or a certain
(03:00):
people.
And I think I.
When you go a step behind that,a lot of that is built by
creatives.
You know, a lot of that, youknow, from a food standpoint, it
is the chefs, it is the singlemothers who are, are creating
dishes in, in their kitchen.
Uh, when you think about an artstandpoint, you know, obviously
you have creatives driving theforce behind that.
(03:21):
And so for me, when we talkabout cre, creating the culture
or.
C um, creativity and culture.
It really is a full immersion oflike the decisions we make as
designers, as artists, and howthey impact and, and.
Create the culture literally.
Yeah, absolutely.
And you've done so much of it inyour career and I think it, it
would be helpful to kind of talka little bit about what got you
(03:43):
from being a, what started offas kind of a photography major
and graphic design to now beingthis creative director with the
Marcus Graham project and doingsome really.
Interactive and experientialwork.
So, and that's so rooted inculture.
So maybe talk a little bit aboutyour background there of what
(04:04):
took you down that path ofstarting just with photography
or just with design and thenopening up to this like greater,
impactful movement.
Yeah, I think a lot of times,you know, even from very, the
very beginning, we like to putourselves in boxes, right?
We like to put labels on things.
I went to school and studiedthis and now I professionally do
(04:26):
this and my job is this.
And I think, you know, I thinkabout creativity a little bit
different.
Mm-hmm.
Um, you mentioned that I didstart kind of in the photography
graphic design realm.
Initially I studied classicallyat Kent State University.
Shout out to Kent.
Um, um, but.
I think what I quickly realizedwas in order to truly kind of
(04:48):
bring certain visions to lifeand really serve my clients and
my community in the way that Isaw it, I needed to have like
this hybrid skillset.
Um, and it, it really becamekind of this, this utility knife
of skills that really helped mereally reimagine what creativity
was in, in my toolbox.
Mm-hmm.
Um, and so it started asphotography, right?
(05:10):
I did a lot of like.
Um, weddings actually.
And, um, I, I was doing weddingphotography and then like event
portraits and stuff like that,and I, I got to this point where
I was like, all right, you know,I'm, I'm not a master of
anything, but I'm dangerousenough and just about anything
that love it.
I can create anything.
Like, and I started to like notsay no to really anything.
(05:33):
So if someone brought somethingto me.
And I thought that there was acreative way to solve it.
I'm like, alright, cool.
Well let's figure out how to dothis or how to do that.
And I think what ended uphappening was I took what was
supposed to be just a thing,just graphic design or just
photography.
And really, I.
Um, started to look at ways thatyou could really build on those.
(05:54):
Um, and so I did a lot ofcampaign development.
I started working in theadvertising industry, um, and
then I started to understandlike, you can really use this
creative utility toolkit toreally create solutions for
small businesses, fornonprofits.
And it, it created a, anopportunity for me to kind of
really emerge as a differenttype of creator.
(06:15):
Um.
A lot of times we talk nowabout, again, a title a creative
director.
Right.
But I think that even more thanthat, I like to call myself a
creative solutionist, um,someone who can just solve
problems, right?
And I think that there's alwaysa creative solution to answer or
a solve to a business challenge,a, a community problem that, you
(06:38):
know, I can see myselfpositioned in a way to do it
with one of the many skills thatI've acquired over the time.
Totally.
I, I, I connect with that somuch because as I've gotten
older, and I think this is whatinspired me to start my first
business, is that idea of kindof boxing yourself in, of only
being one particular thing.
(06:59):
And a lot of people do that andthat's why they stay in cubicles
for their entire lives and getone vacation and then retire and
say, I want to do all thesethings.
And there's simply not enoughtime, you know?
Right.
There's not enough time orenergy.
Left and, and it's all of theseyears of like unused creativity.
So I, that's why I love creativeso much because it's almost
(07:20):
planning your flag in a way andsaying like, I don't.
Uh, like take away all of thelabels.
Take away what you are, what'son your resume, what's on your
business card, what you got yourdegree in, and just what is
something you can lean into andsolve a problem with, or story
tell with.
And those are just, I think thatthat magic happens when you lean
(07:42):
into that and you're okay withjust kind of sucking for a
little bit and then going fromthere.
Yeah, I, I had, you know, thequote, like, a jack of all
trades is a master of none.
Yeah.
So I heard someone say, or I endup looking it up and, and fact
checking it.
The, the entire tee of thatphrase is, um, a jack of all
(08:04):
trades is a master of none.
And then it goes on to say, butoften still better.
Then, um, someone who focuses onone.
You know what I mean?
Yeah.
It goes on to talk about, inthat phrase, we only, we only
have in community digested halfof it, which is the negative
connotation of like just beinggood enough or just being
(08:25):
dangerous in the words of BakerMayfield.
Mm-hmm.
Uh, just dangerous enough to, tosomething about it.
Yeah.
And for me, I oftentimes like.
How, what can I touch?
What can I figure out next andhave just a little piece of
understanding in before someoneelse that can expose my clients
or my community to a, a way ofthinking.
(08:46):
Yeah.
Um, makes them dangerous ormakes them able to solve just a
little piece of the solution.
So that's how I think about it.
Yeah, I totally agree.
And you've talked a lot aboutthe idea of using art and
creativity as storytelling, andI know you do that a lot with
Marcus Graham.
So, um, I'm curious, what hasbeen your most favorite project
(09:06):
that you have been able to?
Story tell and it doesn't like,it doesn't even have to be
anything related to MarcusGraham, but just in your career,
what was something that you werereally excited to be able to
convey that in a creative wayand then talk about what you
did?
Yeah, I think storytelling is sovital, right?
Like it, it is.
The, the foundation ofcreativity in, in my opinion,
(09:30):
um, you, you make peopleinvested.
You make people understand, youmake people connected by telling
stories.
Um, and so storytelling hasalways been a, um, such an
important part of how I approachcreativity.
Um, and if you think about it,like even from way back, like
right, we had.
Our first language languageswere stories.
(09:52):
They were pictures on the wallsthat told hieroglyphics, that
told the stories and narrativesof what was going on.
And we look at like, you know,the Bibles we read and the
ancient ways that we've learnedabout things.
A lot of it is storytelling.
And so the best creators and,and communicators of today do a
great job of telling stories.
Mm-hmm.
(10:12):
Um, my favorite story today thatI have told.
Um, we use the big, uh, project,the Cream Abdul-Jabbar trophy
you talked about in the opening.
Yeah.
I think that, you know, we usethe moment to create really a
art piece.
I would say more so for context.
We, we, uh, designed the CreamAbdul-Jabbar Social Justice
(10:35):
Award, which is a trophy givingaway to one NBA player who, um.
Services comm his community andshows social action, um, through
their work off the court.
Um, and you know, the, when wegot the project brief, the first
thing you instantly thought wasbasketball, right?
Because it's an NBA trophy.
(10:55):
It's like, and, and atraditional trophy model.
And we started to really justdeep dive on like what does that
mean, right?
Like what is the challenge orcharge to a personal athlete
mean when they all of a suddenare doing something at the
highest level that they alwayswanted to do, that they're
passionate about, and now theyhave cash flow to help and
(11:18):
support others and, and they canbring certain things to their
community.
And we came up with this thoughtabout the freedom to dream.
And the entire piece, while itis centered around basketball,
it is centered around the ideaof what a platform like being an
NBA player can provide and howthat that can be translated to
(11:40):
others.
And so we created the, uh, thisidea of freedom to dream, which
was, uh, Kareem Abdul Jabbar'shands, like holding this crystal
basketball.
And it was like a symbologymoment of like the care that
obviously is crystal, but thecare you have to take with it.
But also like the magic of thegame, like the magic of what
(12:01):
basketball has created forsocial justice champions that
gives them the ability to, tohold on to this game.
And, and the ball also had the,uh, the world, um, etched on top
of it.
And so it, it showed like thecare it took, but also like how
the game of basketball canaffect the, the world.
Wow.
And to me, it was just abeautiful, like I said, art
(12:22):
piece at this point.
Um, and now it's a staple in theNBA trophy lineup, which is also
cool.
That is amazing.
I mean, it, that will, that'syour legacy right there, you
know, it's, that's cool.
Creating that representation ofwhat it means.
And I think it's so true.
It's, it's like that deeperlayer of what it.
What the project is all about,because you could have created
(12:43):
anything, you know, you couldhave just created like his face
on a heart or something.
Mm-hmm.
And just called it the, thetrophy or what, you know,
whatever the, for like you thatyou were honoring.
But instead there's like trueintentionality that goes into it
and what this means.
And that is where the legacypart comes in.
And that's where the creativitycomes in too.
Right?
Because when you have that trueintentionality, you know what
(13:06):
decisions to make, like.
You know how to choose the themedium.
Like I said, we talked aboutgentleness and care and so
that's why we went with Crystalinstead of like all gold.
It was like it create thatintentionality helps you make
creative decisions.
Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
I wanna segue,'cause we'retalking about Marcus Graham
(13:27):
project diversity, your goal ofempowering black and brown
entrepreneurs and creatives.
And I'm curious like whatmotivates you?
For that to make sure thatthere's always opportunities for
people and voices to be heardand different avenues of
creativity to be explored.
Like what speaks to you the mostabout that and how have you been
(13:48):
involved in empowering others?
I.
Um, I mean, I, I think it's atwofold approach.
I think one, like I always wantto be what I was looking for at
the time in the instance of it'shard to emerge as a creative or,
or start it, start a smallbusiness or, or use what you
have as your personal talentsand, and put that forward in, in
(14:10):
something that you can believein.
That's tough.
Yeah.
And so like.
Setting this, not, not thestandard, but something to look
at or something to aspire to hasalways been important to me, but
also creating the pathways forothers to easily access that.
You know, I think a lot of timesthat it's just so hard to to
explore our passions and to becreative because I.
(14:30):
Money's in the way or time orall these things.
So I always wanted to try and,um, break down as many of those
barriers as I could.
And so that's why mentorship andexposure is so important to me.
Um, but on the second hand ofthat question, I think that like
diversity.
Its true, meaning is a bigdriver of why I think it's
(14:51):
important.
Um, I've always seen that thebest ideas come when you have a,
a wealth of talent and thoughtin the room, um, and not just
your own.
And I think that when we, I.
Get past all the barriers thatare obvious, and we really think
about diversity of, of thought,diversity, of perspective,
(15:12):
diversity, of, of effort andskill sets.
That's when the true magichappens.
I remember earlier in my career,I worked on so many projects
just by myself.
I'm cranking it away.
Um, and it wasn't that I reallysaw the magic in the work and,
and, and my ideas get bigger andbetter until I started
collaborating with other, othercreatives and bringing other
people in.
(15:32):
Um, and I think that it is thatdiversity of thought that really
makes, I.
Something beautiful andsomething, a story that everyone
can understand and everyone cansee themselves represented and
engaged in.
And that's what makes true,powerful creative work and
creative solutions is when youhave that, that true, uh,
diverse range of, of all ofthat, not just what you think by
(15:55):
yourself.
Yeah, I, I, I buy into thatwholeheartedly.
And I think when we firststarted our business, that was
the same thi same kind ofapproach that we took.
And again, you know, likeleaning into the creativity side
is knowing that there are peoplewho are doing so many cool
things in this world thatcompliment what you are doing
that give you mm-hmm differentperspective, challenge you to
(16:17):
think differently, which wassomething kind of new.
And my experience is a littledifferent'cause I came from a
corporate world where I felt.
Not challenged.
I felt like everyone was roboticin the way of thinking, and it's
just like, this is the way it'salways been done.
But when you are open to thatkind of, I guess, vulnerability,
really, you know, if you'redoing projects by yourself for
(16:40):
so long and then you welcome innew ideas, new voices, there's a
level that's like, oh shit, youknow, I, I have to level up too.
Or I'm not gonna get better, orI'm not gonna make this
experience what it should be.
And so we, I sought out thesame, I was like, there's so
many business owners and peoplewith more knowledge than I have
in the city.
(17:01):
Why would I not collaborate withthem?
Or why would I not, you know,ask for an opinion?
And it's, it's worked out somuch and now I've just kind of
built it into my psyche and justrunning a business is always
seeking.
Other people's advice or youknow, just like ways to
collaborate for sure.
Was there one collaboration youdid that inspired you the most?
(17:24):
Or that was like, wow, this isawesome?
I would say, um, it was actuallya bad experience.
Oh, talk about it.
And so.
You, you, you spoke about theMarcus Grand Project.
I'll give like a a 32nd contextabout that.
So the Marcus Grand Project is,uh, nonprofit organizations that
helps underrepresented talentbreak into the industry of
(17:46):
advertising, marketing, media,and sports.
They have a couple differentprograms.
They have a.
A workshop that like exposes youto the business of sports and
allows you to pitch ideas to asports team.
And then they have a bigger, uh,program that's a bootcamp.
It's like 12 weeks.
You get with the top 12 toppeople from across the country
and it's like a real worldsituation.
You live together, worktogether, form an advertising
(18:07):
agency and pitch to like hugeclients.
So this is where my badexperience happens.
Okay, so.
I told you I'm in the midst of alot of times like doing projects
by myself or maybe one moreperson, um, kind of all in my
own way, um, doing great work.
No, it, it is good work.
It, it earned me one of thespots on the 12 team, but it is
(18:29):
a, a very like tunnel vision wayof thinking about it, of
understanding it.
And so the bad experiencehappens when I start to
collaborate with these other 12folks who are.
Geniuses, right?
Geniuses in their spaceunderstand things better than
just my little jack of alltrades.
I just know a little bit.
(18:50):
They know all of it, right?
They, they poured the 10,000hours in, um, and it was like a,
a, a high tension moment, right?
Like there were, there weretimes where I was very, very
strong.
On how I felt about it, how Isaw it, and I just didn't have
(19:10):
the skin really to collaboratein that manner yet with, and I
didn't understand the potentialthat was on, on, on the table
because I was, I had a big ego,I guess you could say.
Uh, and so.
S the bad experience taught mesomething because what ended up
happening was, uh, I got kickedoff the project.
(19:32):
Right.
I, we had three projects thatsummer and this project was for
a Revolt network, which is a,um, a media company.
Okay.
And I had kicked off the Revoltproject and I had an attitude
like for a couple days, and Iended up picking up another
piece of work we were workingon.
And then I came back and checkedon that group like three days
(19:54):
later.
Like positive that the, thecastle had crumbled and Yep.
They were nothing without me.
And the work that they wereproducing was amazing and it, it
still implemented my creativity,the things that I had done on
the project, but I was the blockin allowing that project to, to
(20:16):
get to the level it got to and,and how we ended up presenting
it.
And it was my fault.
And so like, being removed,being pulled out, like having to
check my ego and, and realizinglike how important collaboration
and allowing people to do whatthey do well, um, yeah, can help
you do what you do well.
Uh, was really like a, a changeof the guard for me.
(20:37):
And ever since it is like Iapproach work so much
differently.
Like, it, it's all about likecollaborating and creating space
for people to, to do them andbring themselves to the project,
not just collaborating because.
I wanna say that I, I've gotmore teammates, but like true
collaboration.
Jason, I am so glad that youshared that because that is, the
(20:58):
ego part is it's really tough.
Yeah.
It's really tough to have to ownyour idea and have, and as a
creative person to finally getcomfortable with sharing.
The things that you wanna shareand cre and having a voice and
you're like, wait, I'm doing allthese things.
Like that's what people say isspeak up, like, stand up for
(21:20):
yourself and show the world whatyou got.
And then you get into asituation you're like, that
you're, you're like, I am, butit's not working and I'm the
problem.
So I think it takes such a big,that's such a awesome learning
moment, but it's also takes sucha big like.
Just, I guess like weight offyour shoulders to say, you know
(21:42):
what?
I realize that I'm not gonna belike the best and I have to just
accept it and move on and seehow this makes me better for the
next time.
Yeah, so much so, so much So,yeah, I think ego gets in the
way for so many people, andobviously it's not, it's not a,
it is not a great.
Thing to have in a collaborativeenvironment because you really
(22:02):
close yourself off to to othersbecause you're only looking
through the way you see it.
And for me, perspective is such,such a key ingredient in, in
great work.
And if you're only looking atone perspective, then you're
only solving one half of theproblem.
You know what I mean?
So you need these otherperspectives and ideas and
(22:23):
contributions to really have afull thought on something.
Um, so yeah.
Drop the ego folks.
Drop it.
You heard it here first, as asyou can.
So I wanna segue into being abusiness owner and running your
own show and what thatexperience has been like for
you, because I know that that isat times what stops people from.
(22:47):
C continuing, you know, like,like at any kind of creative
pursuit, it's like how would Imanage that business side?
And so like I know you and I aresimilar, that it's not like we
have business degrees or likewe've run businesses before.
We just, everything was trial byfire and we learned how to
operate.
So what was like that turningpoint for you or the aha moment
(23:10):
that.
Was like, no, I can do this.
Like, I'm not just doing acreative exploration, but I'm
making this my career and myjob.
Um, I I have two answers and,and one is kind of left field.
I think one is a, a beliefsystem, right?
Um, so I, I, I talk about this alot, about stackable evidence,
(23:34):
and I think that stackableevidence is so important.
It is, it is your groundwork forwhat.
Gives you the ability to say youare who you say you are, or you,
you, you have the abilities todo the things you do.
And when you talk about thebusiness side of things, I think
a lot of that is rooted instackable evidence, right?
(23:55):
I think if you start to look atall the things you've done,
whether that is what you'vesold, what you've told, what
you've made, um, there'sevidence there to prove that.
People like it.
People find value in it thatit's worth money, that the time
you've invested in it pays off.
Like that stackable evidenceproves that you are who you say
(24:17):
you are, or that you are in, inthis case, a designer.
Um, I have this stackableevidence that says I have the
ability to design and people arewilling to pay.
For this work, and I think thatwas a aha moment for me as a
business owner or in my earlystages, was that like, it wasn't
just something I was saying,right?
(24:39):
It was like there was evidencebehind the fact that I created
this for someone.
They loved it and it impactedtheir business in this way.
And that started to happen overand over and over again.
And I think.
Like anything, any businessmind, it starts to say, wait,
wait a minute, wait a minute.
Like I could, I could do thisand I could build the systems
(25:02):
and the formalities around it tooperate it like a business, not
just in hobby or not just askillset.
Yeah.
And I think that there's so manyareas of opportunity, um, not
just in creativity, but for somany people to monetize things
that they.
Do or have passion around.
Uh, so that was a huge ahamoment for me was when people
(25:22):
consistently started to like,find value and, and, and I could
actually see the impact of thework.
It was like, okay, this issomething I could build a
business around.
And then the second part of itgoes back to collaboration.
Um, my first company, I startedwith a business person and we
were like, because you're right,creatives like business is not.
(25:45):
It is not our thing.
Intuitive.
Yeah.
A lot of times we're in theclouds where you're expecting us
to do so many different things.
Uh, but I was able to see howshe, um, I won't say leverage,
leverage isn't the right word,but built the business and the
infrastructure around uscreatives.
Uh, we had several creatives onour team and it really helped me
(26:08):
to see the functions and modesof businesses of business that.
As a creative, you just kind ofignore simple things like
contracting and invoicing.
Totally.
Things like, I, I remember thefirst person we hired was, um,
an account person, and their jobwas basically just to call
people.
Just say, Hey, how's it going?
Do you have any work?
(26:29):
Hey, how's your project going?
Here's the updates.
And I, I was sitting there as acreative, like, this person
isn't going to help us.
Yeah.
Like this person, I don't seehow this works, but.
Our clients were so happy.
Like our clients loved usbecause they had a, a best
friend and this guy Yeah.
Who was calling and checking andfiguring out and making sure
(26:51):
nothing was late and keepingthings on schedule.
And that was nothing I would'vedone as a creative.
I would've never hired thatperson.
Totally.
Um, and I got the opportunity tofirsthand see how business and
creativity intermingle.
And how much they impact eachother.
And I think, uh, I just startedto absorb some of those skillset
because they're so vital and,and now I'm kind of like pegged
(27:15):
as being known to be one ofthose creatives who can actually
work on the business side too.
Mm.
Um, and it's a huge advantagebecause so many of us are just
not good.
Totally.
At the simple business stuff,you know what I mean?
Like, we look at what we do at,at.
As fun and as passion and a lotof times, like we sell ourselves
short because, and I'm stillguilty of selling myself short
(27:38):
because we don't understand thebusiness of it.
Yeah.
Um, and so I would say one wasawareness and two was, again,
through collaboration and havingthe exposure to business.
Um, and so I would say as apiece of advice to any of my
creatives out there is.
Go spend some time in thebusiness world.
You know, like there is abusiness of creativity, whether
(28:01):
that's finding a friend or amentor or a collaborator that is
heavy in business andunderstands all that stuff, or
whether that is an actually I.
Learning and taking likecoursework or classwork to
understand just the basics.
'cause they go a long, long way.
I totally agree with that.
And me, I've have never had aninterest in taxes, payroll,
(28:24):
learning, any of that.
But when you, I.
See how valuable it is, or likewhen I tell people that I am
lucky enough to have a partnerwho knows that it's like, oh my
gosh.
Like that is just so useful.
'cause it is, it's either youlearn it, you spend time or you
spend money.
There's, there's only twoanswers to this spending time or
spending money to be able to dothat.
And that is what creates thefoundation for business to go on
(28:47):
for a long, long time.
It just can't be like.
Free willy-nilly, but I lovethat you shared that, that kind
of came through just experienceoverall.
Because I, I think there's highexpectations for people who
have, especially creatives.
It's like, oh, I've done thisfor so long, or I've worked in
an agency, or I've worked in acreative department and I am now
(29:07):
gonna move into a freelancerole.
Like, it'll be so easy and like,I'll flip a switch and I'll just
know how to do all these thingsand it's just not realistic.
So I like that you said thatfrom your perspective.
I'll add on to that too.
Like I think a lot of people, Imean this is my opinion, this
isn't bible or industry, but Ithink a lot of people, a lot, a
(29:28):
lot of times are too rigid inbusinesses and end up ruining
creativity.
Yeah.
And so like a lot of times I'llsee early businesses who just
don't understand like, you knowwhat I mean?
Don't understand the flow of acorporate client or the flow of.
Um, a big project well enoughand it becomes so hard to work
(29:51):
with them that.
Business kind of starts to getshaky.
Yeah.
And so I, what I, I ultimatelyam trying to say is, this is a
learned thing over time.
Like it is a thing that, likeyou start to learn the game as,
as people call it a, a business.
I.
You start to understand what,what the pieces and the players
(30:11):
and the parts are and, and it issomething that is just not
overnight.
Yeah.
And so don't, don't go too hardup front also, don't go and do
nothing.
You know what I mean?
Slowly progress and build at, ata solid pace and you'll get
there really quick.
Yeah.
Something that it, this is alittle bit of a segue into this,
but you were just saying likesometimes too much, too much.
(30:34):
Kind of like structure or toomuch of the business side can
ruin a creative project or thedirection of something, and I'm
gonna use that for this nextquestion of something else that
I hear buzzing so much of whatruins creativity, which is the
use of ai.
So I wanna hear your opinion onusing AI in business and in your
(30:54):
creative process and where youthink we can go with it.
And is it ruining creativity asa whole?
Um, I'm on both sides of theargument.
Um, I personally use AI a ton.
Um, it is every day for me andmy business.
(31:14):
And, and honestly, what I do useit for is the structure.
Like is the, the, I like tothink of AI as like thinking
partners, right?
Like it doesn't create theideas.
It doesn't create the stories.
It doesn't tell me, um.
It doesn't create the input.
I create the input.
It just helps with the output.
(31:36):
Things like writing, thingslike, uh, scheduling things like
structure, things likecontracts, like I, I'll, so, so
many things that I utilize thatwould traditionally just steal
time from me.
Mm-hmm.
Um, I'm an, I'm now allowed tokind of have a helpmate and a
partner in doing so, and I thinka lot of times we're very rigid
(31:57):
on how we think about technologyand tech, technological
advancements.
A lot of times we operate.
In a fear-based mindset when itcomes to new things or, or new,
um, capabilities.
And I always like to lookbackwards and I like to look at
how techno technology and, andinnovation has changed the way
we've done things in the pastand made them so much better.
(32:19):
Yeah.
Um, and I look at things like.
Let's look at the map, right?
Like the, the traditional map,like at the very beginning,
these were things that oneperson had to scout the land and
then draw from memory.
And this was what we trusted.
And then over time we started toget these big paper maps and
booklets that were, you know,printed on machines.
(32:41):
And now it is just a click of abutton and we don't even think
about it.
We just type in where we wannago, and soon it'll be even
better.
And no one's like mad about thefact that.
We put the, the map out ofbusiness, right?
I think that map just had to.
Adapt.
Adapt.
Yeah.
And and, and learn how to usetheir skill sets in a different
(33:03):
way.
And when I think about ai,that's how I think about it too,
right?
I think about it as a tool setthat we're still learning and
adjusting to.
So I'm fine with people havingfear with it, and I do too.
'cause it's incredibly powerful.
Yeah.
But I'm also on the side ofleaning into it.
'cause what can it do and whathas it already done For my
personal business andcreativity, that really frees me
(33:25):
up.
To have bigger and better ideasand unlock newer solutions,
because now we have all thesetools that can help you solve
these bigger problems.
Um, so totally.
I'm, I'm on both sides.
I think that the fear and the,the lack of understanding is, is
warranted.
It is definitely something thatwe should, you know, be mindful
(33:47):
of.
Especially if you watch likeshows like Black Mirror, like
yeah, we're screwed.
There's sides of it where it'slike.
The potential of innovation andcreativity that we can pull out
of these tools is, is somethingthat could continue to change
the world and, and potentiallychange how we think about things
in totality.
(34:07):
And so let's find ways to leaninto it.
One and understand it two at thevery minimum.
I totally agree with that.
Yeah.
And, and because I'm all aboutpractical advice, are there
certain apps that you use thathelp you manage your, the
business side or cre creativeside more effectively?
Uh, I'll go with the big dog,but I'll, I'll explain it in a
(34:30):
different way.
Mm-hmm.
Um, so.
Chad GT is the big dog, in myopinion.
I think they rule the spaceright now that most people
understand it and use it.
And again, I think of of it likea thought partner.
And you oftentimes hear peoplein the space talking about like
they trained in ai or they builta bot, or they understood
(34:51):
something.
I think that that sounds likereally technical and really
difficult, right?
Mm-hmm.
And it's not, right.
It really is just giving it theunderstanding and the prompts
and the background on a certainthing or a certain task or per,
or a certain person that allowsthem to have the, the, the
(35:11):
machine learning of howsomething works.
Yeah.
And so this is my advice, mypractical advice is a lot of
people like to type.
Prompts into chat, GBT and chat.
GBT has a voice feature thatallows you to talk instead of
type.
Great.
And what I have found is youever notice how the prompts are
(35:34):
very rigid?
It is like, give me a periodthis with this, and you see a
lot of people prompting veryspecific things to get very
specific outcomes.
Yes.
I talk to my chat.
Robot.
I call her a robot now.
She has a personality.
I've given her a background ofwho she is.
I gave her a full bio andbackground of me.
(35:55):
I uploaded my resume.
Um, I've been talking to her fora year already now.
Wow.
And we have like, things aregetting serious.
Yeah.
We have like a dailyconversation and friendship.
But she also understands mythought process and the way I
kind of process even things thatI haven't documented on paper
about processes.
Because every time I've talkedto her over the year, I take her
(36:16):
through the same steps of like,here's how I think about this.
Here's what I wanna do aboutthis.
Um, and so in talking instead ofprompting, she also understands
like my tone of voice, um, my.
Inflection on what?
On how I put importance onthings.
And so the prompts aren't sorigid, they're a lot more fluid,
(36:37):
and the conversation and theoutput is a lot more fluid.
I think a lot of people end upgetting in trouble using AI
because they have very rigidkind of input output with it.
Yeah.
And the output feels like arobot wrote it, right?
It doesn't feel very humanistic.
And so.
I would say talk to your chatinstead of typing to the chat in
(36:58):
some instances to kind of buildup what, um, what that input and
output feels like.
And so it's not so robotic andrigid and you're not getting
like hard line results.
vicki (2) (37:08):
Um, well that is such an interesting way to use chat,
GPT and I've actually never donethe talk to text feature, just
the talking feature.
Um, but I have learned the samething that I talked to her in
this same.
Tone of voice that I would liketalk, I would talk to a friend,
or I would talk to a coworker,and I, I'm, I mean, mostly it's
(37:31):
just like a brand voice where ifI was presenting this, what
would I say or how would I talkabout it?
But I, I think it's amazing.
I love chat, GPT.
It helps me with so many things,and I don't ever look at it as
cheating because I don't thinkit will ever take away.
The humanistic aspect, like arob, maybe I'm wrong, but I was
gonna say like a robot can'tcome out and paint a mural on
(37:53):
your wall.
Like a robot's not gonna be thenext like Beyonce.
You know, like we're still gonnaneed these people and these
voices to create art.
But, um, all of the backendthings that our world is so
complex and confusing, if it canhelp with that, it's like, yeah,
why wouldn't we?
Jason (38:13):
Exactly.
The future is here.
We just gotta lean into it.
vicki (2) (38:16):
Yeah, that's right.
That's right.
Um, well I had a couplequestions for you while we're
winding these down.
And one is because you haveworked on so many projects and
you have done so many things inyour career.
So for a small business ownerwho is.
Trying to build community aroundtheir brand or trying to just
(38:38):
bring in design aspects to maketheir storytelling of their
brand stronger.
What is one or two, what are oneor two pieces of advice that you
would give them?
Jason (38:53):
Um, I, I think I would say prioritize the storytelling
and the creativity.
Um, I know that.
Oftentimes things come down tolike bottom line numbers and,
and a lot of business ownersare, are thinking about, um,
inventory or, or whatever it is.
It is dependent on the business,but not very, very often are
(39:14):
they thinking about the stories,but that are happening.
And I, I think that those aremacro and micro, those are
internal and external.
Um, and there's so manystorytelling moments around a
brand, um, that can.
Influence those things like thebottom line and like your
product sales.
Um, and it's so important toauthentically tap into your
(39:37):
audience, to, to grow realcommunity and real brand
affinity.
Um, and I, I think that's donewell.
When you story tell and when youleverage creativity within your
business, um, there's, there's asolution to every single
problem.
Mm-hmm.
And I think that, um.
Leaning into creativity allowsyou to think about the different
(40:01):
ways and channels that you couldsolve that problem.
I think it, it's as big as, youknow, maybe something that
completely changes your businessor as little as something as
like, Hey, just putting it onthis platform would change the
game for you.
Or just having this connectionwould be a difference maker.
And I think a lot of times, um.
(40:23):
Small business owners are soburied in the work of it all.
Yeah.
Or so buried in keeping it aliveor keeping it open.
Um, that they don't realize thepotential of lab leveraging, um,
a creative or a community tohelp them.
And I think, you know, it's, yougotta be intentional about it
is, is the advice I would giveis take, take the vested time it
(40:44):
takes to run through a creativeprocess and see.
See where your brand could growor, or what story you have to
tell, um, that that could reallychange it for you.
vicki (2) (40:56):
And do you think practically it's as simple as
like creating a list of all ofthe different areas that you
would want to expand or leaninto?
Like I want to, I.
Create a social media campaignor like, I want a brand makeover
and I want new colors that speakto my creative direction.
Or are you saying it's likeliterally just talking to your
customer and finding out likewhat connects with them?
(41:18):
Or maybe it's a mix of both.
Jason (41:21):
I, I, I think it's definitely both, but I think
more so what I mean is like,don't, don't necessarily always
focus on what you're doing Good.
Like.
Focus on the challenges and theproblems in your businesses.
What are the things that need tobe solved?
And then being open to how, whatcreate creativity could do to
(41:43):
solve some of those challengesand problems.
Yeah, I think a lot of timessmall businesses.
Uh, know so much about what theydo well and, and what they, what
the magic that they have, andthey don't quite understand what
they're not doing well, and theylike to ignore the things that
aren't going well.
Mm-hmm.
Um, and I would say like.
(42:03):
Oftentimes as a creative, I'veseen the best solutions come
when people come with problems.
Not the best solutions come whenpeople are all jacked up and
excited about this thing thatthey feel like they totally
understand and they totally feelgood about.
Um, and oftentimes that's wheresmall businesses meet.
(42:23):
To me, they always come andlike, we're doing well, but we
wanna grow and expand.
Yeah.
And they never tell me aboutlike where they're struggling or
what are the bad things that arehappening, or what things that
might.
Could help them.
And that's oftentimes the thingsI'm looking for or analyzing to
try and come up with the bestsolution to impact their
business.
So I, I mean, so more that way,like don't be afraid to trust
(42:45):
the creative with the hard partsof your business or, or trust,
you know, your community withthe problems you're having.
Yeah.
Um, because oftentimes they,they, that is where the solution
or the solve is in growth is, iswhere things may not be shiny
and new at.
vicki (2) (43:02):
That's totally a golden nugget because I am doing
marketing freelancing and I'mtalking to clients about
building their own social mediacampaigns.
And a big thing, a big challengeis around creating content when
things aren't perfect.
Like, well, I wanna share ourwins and what we've been, what
we've been doing, where we'regoing, like great vision and I
think.
(43:23):
The, a lot of, a lot of timesthe content that connects is
when you're sharing your storyfrom when it's not so glamorous.
And so those are theconversations I'm having with
newer business owners is, well,I don't have anything to show
because I'm not, you know, I'mnot, I haven't hit this award,
or we haven't hit this revenuemarker.
When in reality it's like, it'sall the show.
It's what'd you do today to workon your dream or work on your
(43:45):
business?
Because I think people, people.
We'll wanna know that.
I think now we're just getting,we're the tip of the iceberg.
But I really think thestorytelling for creative
impact, whether it's building abusiness, a brand, you know,
personal enhancement, whateverit is, it, everyone's gonna
wanna see the rags to richesstory.
(44:05):
So it's starting today and notbeing afraid of using that as
material to drive not onlyproblem solving and creative
solutioning, but as a way to.
Tell your story as, as you growas a brand.
Jason (44:20):
Yeah.
And it creates that, your brandethos, it, it creates who you
are.
vicki (2) (44:25):
Yeah.
Jason (44:25):
And what people start to see you as.
vicki (2) (44:29):
Yeah, I totally agree with that.
Um, well, I love everything thatyou have shared here today.
You are a true visionary and youhave walked the walk, talked the
talk, and you've done it all,and you've done it again.
I'm like, I'm so glad that youshared some stories of where,
you know, you were a little bitgut checked in the process or
things you've learned along theway.
Because like I said, that's whatpeople wanna know is how do I go
(44:51):
from someone who wants to dosomething or is it knows that I
have this creative passion, butI don't know how to get into the
next.
Step and all too often webelieve that it's overnight and
that just ruins the wholejourney if you're not open to
accepting that.
It's a learning process.
So I'm so honored and glad thatyou shared your story here
today, and as always, I lovecatching up with you.
(45:13):
So thank you again for being aguest on the show today.
Jason (45:17):
Thank you for having me, man.
Excited.
You got it.
Today's episode is all aboutcreativity with purpose, and I
couldn't think of a better guestto dive into that topic than
with Jason Garrett.
Jason is a powerhouse graphicdesigner and creative director
whose work blends culture,strategy, and storytelling in a
way that actually moves people.
He's worked with brands like theCleveland Cavaliers and helped
(01:09):
design the Kareem Abdul-Jabbartrophy for the NBA.
What really sets Jason apart ishow he uses his talent to
elevate small and black ownedbusinesses to drive civic
engagement and mentor the nextgeneration of creatives.
Now working with the MarcusGraham Project, a nonprofit
dedicated to building diversityand marketing and advertising,
Jason is focused on creating forculture and helping others do
(01:32):
the same.
We first met during anaccelerator program where we
competed in a pitch competition.
I really got to witness Jason'smagic when he designed the logo
and brand essence for a companythat I co-founded and recently
sold.
And I am so excited for you tohear his insights on turning
creativity into real impact.
So let's get into it.
(01:53):
Jason, how are you?
What's up?
What's up?
I'm, I'm gonna use that.
I'm gonna find a way to likepull that audio.
Like use it for when I go up onstage or something that got me
hyped.
What's up?
Well, you know, I can be rentedout for other public speaking
engagements just as yourpersonal hype woman.
Whenever you need me, say less,let's do.
(02:15):
Awesome.
So I know what's somethingthat's really important for you
is this idea of creating forculture.
And I don't think that it'salways that apparent to people
of what that actually means andwhat that drives, what that can
create.
So I wanna know for you, likewhat does that mean specifically
to you and how have you embodiedthat in some of the work that
(02:36):
you've recently created?
Yeah, I think, um, you know,culture is a word a lot of times
in my opinion.
I think people use the wordculture, but they don't really.
Oftentimes dissect what cultureis and and how it's built and
where it comes from.
And so anytime I think aboutculture, I think about the food,
the art, the language, the styleof a certain place or a certain
(03:00):
people.
And I think I.
When you go a step behind that,a lot of that is built by
creatives.
You know, a lot of that, youknow, from a food standpoint, it
is the chefs, it is the singlemothers who are, are creating
dishes in, in their kitchen.
Uh, when you think about an artstandpoint, you know, obviously
you have creatives driving theforce behind that.
(03:21):
And so for me, when we talkabout cre, creating the culture
or.
C um, creativity and culture.
It really is a full immersion oflike the decisions we make as
designers, as artists, and howthey impact and, and.
Create the culture literally.
Yeah, absolutely.
And you've done so much of it inyour career and I think it, it
would be helpful to kind of talka little bit about what got you
(03:43):
from being a, what started offas kind of a photography major
and graphic design to now beingthis creative director with the
Marcus Graham project and doingsome really.
Interactive and experientialwork.
So, and that's so rooted inculture.
So maybe talk a little bit aboutyour background there of what
(04:04):
took you down that path ofstarting just with photography
or just with design and thenopening up to this like greater,
impactful movement.
Yeah, I think a lot of times,you know, even from very, the
very beginning, we like to putourselves in boxes, right?
We like to put labels on things.
I went to school and studiedthis and now I professionally do
(04:26):
this and my job is this.
And I think, you know, I thinkabout creativity a little bit
different.
Mm-hmm.
Um, you mentioned that I didstart kind of in the photography
graphic design realm.
Initially I studied classicallyat Kent State University.
Shout out to Kent.
Um, um, but.
I think what I quickly realizedwas in order to truly kind of
(04:48):
bring certain visions to lifeand really serve my clients and
my community in the way that Isaw it, I needed to have like
this hybrid skillset.
Um, and it, it really becamekind of this, this utility knife
of skills that really helped mereally reimagine what creativity
was in, in my toolbox.
Mm-hmm.
Um, and so it started asphotography, right?
(05:10):
I did a lot of like.
Um, weddings actually.
And, um, I, I was doing weddingphotography and then like event
portraits and stuff like that,and I, I got to this point where
I was like, all right, you know,I'm, I'm not a master of
anything, but I'm dangerousenough and just about anything
that love it.
I can create anything.
Like, and I started to like notsay no to really anything.
(05:33):
So if someone brought somethingto me.
And I thought that there was acreative way to solve it.
I'm like, alright, cool.
Well let's figure out how to dothis or how to do that.
And I think what ended uphappening was I took what was
supposed to be just a thing,just graphic design or just
photography.
And really, I.
Um, started to look at ways thatyou could really build on those.
(05:54):
Um, and so I did a lot ofcampaign development.
I started working in theadvertising industry, um, and
then I started to understandlike, you can really use this
creative utility toolkit toreally create solutions for
small businesses, fornonprofits.
And it, it created a, anopportunity for me to kind of
really emerge as a differenttype of creator.
(06:15):
Um.
A lot of times we talk nowabout, again, a title a creative
director.
Right.
But I think that even more thanthat, I like to call myself a
creative solutionist, um,someone who can just solve
problems, right?
And I think that there's alwaysa creative solution to answer or
a solve to a business challenge,a, a community problem that, you
(06:38):
know, I can see myselfpositioned in a way to do it
with one of the many skills thatI've acquired over the time.
Totally.
I, I, I connect with that somuch because as I've gotten
older, and I think this is whatinspired me to start my first
business, is that idea of kindof boxing yourself in, of only
being one particular thing.
(06:59):
And a lot of people do that andthat's why they stay in cubicles
for their entire lives and getone vacation and then retire and
say, I want to do all thesethings.
And there's simply not enoughtime, you know?
Right.
There's not enough time orenergy.
Left and, and it's all of theseyears of like unused creativity.
So I, that's why I love creativeso much because it's almost
(07:20):
planning your flag in a way andsaying like, I don't.
Uh, like take away all of thelabels.
Take away what you are, what'son your resume, what's on your
business card, what you got yourdegree in, and just what is
something you can lean into andsolve a problem with, or story
tell with.
And those are just, I think thatthat magic happens when you lean
(07:42):
into that and you're okay withjust kind of sucking for a
little bit and then going fromthere.
Yeah, I, I had, you know, thequote, like, a jack of all
trades is a master of none.
Yeah.
So I heard someone say, or I endup looking it up and, and fact
checking it.
The, the entire tee of thatphrase is, um, a jack of all
(08:04):
trades is a master of none.
And then it goes on to say, butoften still better.
Then, um, someone who focuses onone.
You know what I mean?
Yeah.
It goes on to talk about, inthat phrase, we only, we only
have in community digested halfof it, which is the negative
connotation of like just beinggood enough or just being
(08:25):
dangerous in the words of BakerMayfield.
Mm-hmm.
Uh, just dangerous enough to, tosomething about it.
Yeah.
And for me, I oftentimes like.
How, what can I touch?
What can I figure out next andhave just a little piece of
understanding in before someoneelse that can expose my clients
or my community to a, a way ofthinking.
(08:46):
Yeah.
Um, makes them dangerous ormakes them able to solve just a
little piece of the solution.
So that's how I think about it.
Yeah, I totally agree.
And you've talked a lot aboutthe idea of using art and
creativity as storytelling, andI know you do that a lot with
Marcus Graham.
So, um, I'm curious, what hasbeen your most favorite project
(09:06):
that you have been able to?
Story tell and it doesn't like,it doesn't even have to be
anything related to MarcusGraham, but just in your career,
what was something that you werereally excited to be able to
convey that in a creative wayand then talk about what you
did?
Yeah, I think storytelling is sovital, right?
Like it, it is.
The, the foundation ofcreativity in, in my opinion,
(09:30):
um, you, you make peopleinvested.
You make people understand, youmake people connected by telling
stories.
Um, and so storytelling hasalways been a, um, such an
important part of how I approachcreativity.
Um, and if you think about it,like even from way back, like
right, we had.
Our first language languageswere stories.
(09:52):
They were pictures on the wallsthat told hieroglyphics, that
told the stories and narrativesof what was going on.
And we look at like, you know,the Bibles we read and the
ancient ways that we've learnedabout things.
A lot of it is storytelling.
And so the best creators and,and communicators of today do a
great job of telling stories.
Mm-hmm.
(10:12):
Um, my favorite story today thatI have told.
Um, we use the big, uh, project,the Cream Abdul-Jabbar trophy
you talked about in the opening.
Yeah.
I think that, you know, we usethe moment to create really a
art piece.
I would say more so for context.
We, we, uh, designed the CreamAbdul-Jabbar Social Justice
(10:35):
Award, which is a trophy givingaway to one NBA player who, um.
Services comm his community andshows social action, um, through
their work off the court.
Um, and you know, the, when wegot the project brief, the first
thing you instantly thought wasbasketball, right?
Because it's an NBA trophy.
(10:55):
It's like, and, and atraditional trophy model.
And we started to really justdeep dive on like what does that
mean, right?
Like what is the challenge orcharge to a personal athlete
mean when they all of a suddenare doing something at the
highest level that they alwayswanted to do, that they're
passionate about, and now theyhave cash flow to help and
(11:18):
support others and, and they canbring certain things to their
community.
And we came up with this thoughtabout the freedom to dream.
And the entire piece, while itis centered around basketball,
it is centered around the ideaof what a platform like being an
NBA player can provide and howthat that can be translated to
(11:40):
others.
And so we created the, uh, thisidea of freedom to dream, which
was, uh, Kareem Abdul Jabbar'shands, like holding this crystal
basketball.
And it was like a symbologymoment of like the care that
obviously is crystal, but thecare you have to take with it.
But also like the magic of thegame, like the magic of what
(12:01):
basketball has created forsocial justice champions that
gives them the ability to, tohold on to this game.
And, and the ball also had the,uh, the world, um, etched on top
of it.
And so it, it showed like thecare it took, but also like how
the game of basketball canaffect the, the world.
Wow.
And to me, it was just abeautiful, like I said, art
(12:22):
piece at this point.
Um, and now it's a staple in theNBA trophy lineup, which is also
cool.
That is amazing.
I mean, it, that will, that'syour legacy right there, you
know, it's, that's cool.
Creating that representation ofwhat it means.
And I think it's so true.
It's, it's like that deeperlayer of what it.
What the project is all about,because you could have created
(12:43):
anything, you know, you couldhave just created like his face
on a heart or something.
Mm-hmm.
And just called it the, thetrophy or what, you know,
whatever the, for like you thatyou were honoring.
But instead there's like trueintentionality that goes into it
and what this means.
And that is where the legacypart comes in.
And that's where the creativitycomes in too.
Right?
Because when you have that trueintentionality, you know what
(13:06):
decisions to make, like.
You know how to choose the themedium.
Like I said, we talked aboutgentleness and care and so
that's why we went with Crystalinstead of like all gold.
It was like it create thatintentionality helps you make
creative decisions.
Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
I wanna segue,'cause we'retalking about Marcus Graham
(13:27):
project diversity, your goal ofempowering black and brown
entrepreneurs and creatives.
And I'm curious like whatmotivates you?
For that to make sure thatthere's always opportunities for
people and voices to be heardand different avenues of
creativity to be explored.
Like what speaks to you the mostabout that and how have you been
(13:48):
involved in empowering others?
I.
Um, I mean, I, I think it's atwofold approach.
I think one, like I always wantto be what I was looking for at
the time in the instance of it'shard to emerge as a creative or,
or start it, start a smallbusiness or, or use what you
have as your personal talentsand, and put that forward in, in
(14:10):
something that you can believein.
That's tough.
Yeah.
And so like.
Setting this, not, not thestandard, but something to look
at or something to aspire to hasalways been important to me, but
also creating the pathways forothers to easily access that.
You know, I think a lot of timesthat it's just so hard to to
explore our passions and to becreative because I.
(14:30):
Money's in the way or time orall these things.
So I always wanted to try and,um, break down as many of those
barriers as I could.
And so that's why mentorship andexposure is so important to me.
Um, but on the second hand ofthat question, I think that like
diversity.
Its true, meaning is a bigdriver of why I think it's
(14:51):
important.
Um, I've always seen that thebest ideas come when you have a,
a wealth of talent and thoughtin the room, um, and not just
your own.
And I think that when we, I.
Get past all the barriers thatare obvious, and we really think
about diversity of, of thought,diversity, of perspective,
(15:12):
diversity, of, of effort andskill sets.
That's when the true magichappens.
I remember earlier in my career,I worked on so many projects
just by myself.
I'm cranking it away.
Um, and it wasn't that I reallysaw the magic in the work and,
and, and my ideas get bigger andbetter until I started
collaborating with other, othercreatives and bringing other
people in.
(15:32):
Um, and I think that it is thatdiversity of thought that really
makes, I.
Something beautiful andsomething, a story that everyone
can understand and everyone cansee themselves represented and
engaged in.
And that's what makes true,powerful creative work and
creative solutions is when youhave that, that true, uh,
diverse range of, of all ofthat, not just what you think by
(15:55):
yourself.
Yeah, I, I, I buy into thatwholeheartedly.
And I think when we firststarted our business, that was
the same thi same kind ofapproach that we took.
And again, you know, likeleaning into the creativity side
is knowing that there are peoplewho are doing so many cool
things in this world thatcompliment what you are doing
that give you mm-hmm differentperspective, challenge you to
(16:17):
think differently, which wassomething kind of new.
And my experience is a littledifferent'cause I came from a
corporate world where I felt.
Not challenged.
I felt like everyone was roboticin the way of thinking, and it's
just like, this is the way it'salways been done.
But when you are open to thatkind of, I guess, vulnerability,
really, you know, if you'redoing projects by yourself for
(16:40):
so long and then you welcome innew ideas, new voices, there's a
level that's like, oh shit, youknow, I, I have to level up too.
Or I'm not gonna get better, orI'm not gonna make this
experience what it should be.
And so we, I sought out thesame, I was like, there's so
many business owners and peoplewith more knowledge than I have
in the city.
(17:01):
Why would I not collaborate withthem?
Or why would I not, you know,ask for an opinion?
And it's, it's worked out somuch and now I've just kind of
built it into my psyche and justrunning a business is always
seeking.
Other people's advice or youknow, just like ways to
collaborate for sure.
Was there one collaboration youdid that inspired you the most?
(17:24):
Or that was like, wow, this isawesome?
I would say, um, it was actuallya bad experience.
Oh, talk about it.
And so.
You, you, you spoke about theMarcus Grand Project.
I'll give like a a 32nd contextabout that.
So the Marcus Grand Project is,uh, nonprofit organizations that
helps underrepresented talentbreak into the industry of
(17:46):
advertising, marketing, media,and sports.
They have a couple differentprograms.
They have a.
A workshop that like exposes youto the business of sports and
allows you to pitch ideas to asports team.
And then they have a bigger, uh,program that's a bootcamp.
It's like 12 weeks.
You get with the top 12 toppeople from across the country
and it's like a real worldsituation.
You live together, worktogether, form an advertising
(18:07):
agency and pitch to like hugeclients.
So this is where my badexperience happens.
Okay, so.
I told you I'm in the midst of alot of times like doing projects
by myself or maybe one moreperson, um, kind of all in my
own way, um, doing great work.
No, it, it is good work.
It, it earned me one of thespots on the 12 team, but it is
(18:29):
a, a very like tunnel vision wayof thinking about it, of
understanding it.
And so the bad experiencehappens when I start to
collaborate with these other 12folks who are.
Geniuses, right?
Geniuses in their spaceunderstand things better than
just my little jack of alltrades.
I just know a little bit.
(18:50):
They know all of it, right?
They, they poured the 10,000hours in, um, and it was like a,
a, a high tension moment, right?
Like there were, there weretimes where I was very, very
strong.
On how I felt about it, how Isaw it, and I just didn't have
(19:10):
the skin really to collaboratein that manner yet with, and I
didn't understand the potentialthat was on, on, on the table
because I was, I had a big ego,I guess you could say.
Uh, and so.
S the bad experience taught mesomething because what ended up
happening was, uh, I got kickedoff the project.
(19:32):
Right.
I, we had three projects thatsummer and this project was for
a Revolt network, which is a,um, a media company.
Okay.
And I had kicked off the Revoltproject and I had an attitude
like for a couple days, and Iended up picking up another
piece of work we were workingon.
And then I came back and checkedon that group like three days
(19:54):
later.
Like positive that the, thecastle had crumbled and Yep.
They were nothing without me.
And the work that they wereproducing was amazing and it, it
still implemented my creativity,the things that I had done on
the project, but I was the blockin allowing that project to, to
(20:16):
get to the level it got to and,and how we ended up presenting
it.
And it was my fault.
And so like, being removed,being pulled out, like having to
check my ego and, and realizinglike how important collaboration
and allowing people to do whatthey do well, um, yeah, can help
you do what you do well.
Uh, was really like a, a changeof the guard for me.
(20:37):
And ever since it is like Iapproach work so much
differently.
Like, it, it's all about likecollaborating and creating space
for people to, to do them andbring themselves to the project,
not just collaborating because.
I wanna say that I, I've gotmore teammates, but like true
collaboration.
Jason, I am so glad that youshared that because that is, the
(20:58):
ego part is it's really tough.
Yeah.
It's really tough to have to ownyour idea and have, and as a
creative person to finally getcomfortable with sharing.
The things that you wanna shareand cre and having a voice and
you're like, wait, I'm doing allthese things.
Like that's what people say isspeak up, like, stand up for
(21:20):
yourself and show the world whatyou got.
And then you get into asituation you're like, that
you're, you're like, I am, butit's not working and I'm the
problem.
So I think it takes such a big,that's such a awesome learning
moment, but it's also takes sucha big like.
Just, I guess like weight offyour shoulders to say, you know
(21:42):
what?
I realize that I'm not gonna belike the best and I have to just
accept it and move on and seehow this makes me better for the
next time.
Yeah, so much so, so much So,yeah, I think ego gets in the
way for so many people, andobviously it's not, it's not a,
it is not a great.
Thing to have in a collaborativeenvironment because you really
(22:02):
close yourself off to to othersbecause you're only looking
through the way you see it.
And for me, perspective is such,such a key ingredient in, in
great work.
And if you're only looking atone perspective, then you're
only solving one half of theproblem.
You know what I mean?
So you need these otherperspectives and ideas and
(22:23):
contributions to really have afull thought on something.
Um, so yeah.
Drop the ego folks.
Drop it.
You heard it here first, as asyou can.
So I wanna segue into being abusiness owner and running your
own show and what thatexperience has been like for
you, because I know that that isat times what stops people from.
(22:47):
C continuing, you know, like,like at any kind of creative
pursuit, it's like how would Imanage that business side?
And so like I know you and I aresimilar, that it's not like we
have business degrees or likewe've run businesses before.
We just, everything was trial byfire and we learned how to
operate.
So what was like that turningpoint for you or the aha moment
(23:10):
that.
Was like, no, I can do this.
Like, I'm not just doing acreative exploration, but I'm
making this my career and myjob.
Um, I I have two answers and,and one is kind of left field.
I think one is a, a beliefsystem, right?
Um, so I, I, I talk about this alot, about stackable evidence,
(23:34):
and I think that stackableevidence is so important.
It is, it is your groundwork forwhat.
Gives you the ability to say youare who you say you are, or you,
you, you have the abilities todo the things you do.
And when you talk about thebusiness side of things, I think
a lot of that is rooted instackable evidence, right?
(23:55):
I think if you start to look atall the things you've done,
whether that is what you'vesold, what you've told, what
you've made, um, there'sevidence there to prove that.
People like it.
People find value in it thatit's worth money, that the time
you've invested in it pays off.
Like that stackable evidenceproves that you are who you say
(24:17):
you are, or that you are in, inthis case, a designer.
Um, I have this stackableevidence that says I have the
ability to design and people arewilling to pay.
For this work, and I think thatwas a aha moment for me as a
business owner or in my earlystages, was that like, it wasn't
just something I was saying,right?
(24:39):
It was like there was evidencebehind the fact that I created
this for someone.
They loved it and it impactedtheir business in this way.
And that started to happen overand over and over again.
And I think.
Like anything, any businessmind, it starts to say, wait,
wait a minute, wait a minute.
Like I could, I could do thisand I could build the systems
(25:02):
and the formalities around it tooperate it like a business, not
just in hobby or not just askillset.
Yeah.
And I think that there's so manyareas of opportunity, um, not
just in creativity, but for somany people to monetize things
that they.
Do or have passion around.
Uh, so that was a huge ahamoment for me was when people
(25:22):
consistently started to like,find value and, and, and I could
actually see the impact of thework.
It was like, okay, this issomething I could build a
business around.
And then the second part of itgoes back to collaboration.
Um, my first company, I startedwith a business person and we
were like, because you're right,creatives like business is not.
(25:45):
It is not our thing.
Intuitive.
Yeah.
A lot of times we're in theclouds where you're expecting us
to do so many different things.
Uh, but I was able to see howshe, um, I won't say leverage,
leverage isn't the right word,but built the business and the
infrastructure around uscreatives.
Uh, we had several creatives onour team and it really helped me
(26:08):
to see the functions and modesof businesses of business that.
As a creative, you just kind ofignore simple things like
contracting and invoicing.
Totally.
Things like, I, I remember thefirst person we hired was, um,
an account person, and their jobwas basically just to call
people.
Just say, Hey, how's it going?
Do you have any work?
(26:29):
Hey, how's your project going?
Here's the updates.
And I, I was sitting there as acreative, like, this person
isn't going to help us.
Yeah.
Like this person, I don't seehow this works, but.
Our clients were so happy.
Like our clients loved usbecause they had a, a best
friend and this guy Yeah.
Who was calling and checking andfiguring out and making sure
(26:51):
nothing was late and keepingthings on schedule.
And that was nothing I would'vedone as a creative.
I would've never hired thatperson.
Totally.
Um, and I got the opportunity tofirsthand see how business and
creativity intermingle.
And how much they impact eachother.
And I think, uh, I just startedto absorb some of those skillset
because they're so vital and,and now I'm kind of like pegged
(27:15):
as being known to be one ofthose creatives who can actually
work on the business side too.
Mm.
Um, and it's a huge advantagebecause so many of us are just
not good.
Totally.
At the simple business stuff,you know what I mean?
Like, we look at what we do at,at.
As fun and as passion and a lotof times, like we sell ourselves
short because, and I'm stillguilty of selling myself short
(27:38):
because we don't understand thebusiness of it.
Yeah.
Um, and so I would say one wasawareness and two was, again,
through collaboration and havingthe exposure to business.
Um, and so I would say as apiece of advice to any of my
creatives out there is.
Go spend some time in thebusiness world.
You know, like there is abusiness of creativity, whether
(28:01):
that's finding a friend or amentor or a collaborator that is
heavy in business andunderstands all that stuff, or
whether that is an actually I.
Learning and taking likecoursework or classwork to
understand just the basics.
'cause they go a long, long way.
I totally agree with that.
And me, I've have never had aninterest in taxes, payroll,
(28:24):
learning, any of that.
But when you, I.
See how valuable it is, or likewhen I tell people that I am
lucky enough to have a partnerwho knows that it's like, oh my
gosh.
Like that is just so useful.
'cause it is, it's either youlearn it, you spend time or you
spend money.
There's, there's only twoanswers to this spending time or
spending money to be able to dothat.
And that is what creates thefoundation for business to go on
(28:47):
for a long, long time.
It just can't be like.
Free willy-nilly, but I lovethat you shared that, that kind
of came through just experienceoverall.
Because I, I think there's highexpectations for people who
have, especially creatives.
It's like, oh, I've done thisfor so long, or I've worked in
an agency, or I've worked in acreative department and I am now
(29:07):
gonna move into a freelancerole.
Like, it'll be so easy and like,I'll flip a switch and I'll just
know how to do all these thingsand it's just not realistic.
So I like that you said thatfrom your perspective.
I'll add on to that too.
Like I think a lot of people, Imean this is my opinion, this
isn't bible or industry, but Ithink a lot of people, a lot, a
(29:28):
lot of times are too rigid inbusinesses and end up ruining
creativity.
Yeah.
And so like a lot of times I'llsee early businesses who just
don't understand like, you knowwhat I mean?
Don't understand the flow of acorporate client or the flow of.
Um, a big project well enoughand it becomes so hard to work
(29:51):
with them that.
Business kind of starts to getshaky.
Yeah.
And so I, what I, I ultimatelyam trying to say is, this is a
learned thing over time.
Like it is a thing that, likeyou start to learn the game as,
as people call it a, a business.
I.
You start to understand what,what the pieces and the players
(30:11):
and the parts are and, and it issomething that is just not
overnight.
Yeah.
And so don't, don't go too hardup front also, don't go and do
nothing.
You know what I mean?
Slowly progress and build at, ata solid pace and you'll get
there really quick.
Yeah.
Something that it, this is alittle bit of a segue into this,
but you were just saying likesometimes too much, too much.
(30:34):
Kind of like structure or toomuch of the business side can
ruin a creative project or thedirection of something, and I'm
gonna use that for this nextquestion of something else that
I hear buzzing so much of whatruins creativity, which is the
use of ai.
So I wanna hear your opinion onusing AI in business and in your
(30:54):
creative process and where youthink we can go with it.
And is it ruining creativity asa whole?
Um, I'm on both sides of theargument.
Um, I personally use AI a ton.
Um, it is every day for me andmy business.
(31:14):
And, and honestly, what I do useit for is the structure.
Like is the, the, I like tothink of AI as like thinking
partners, right?
Like it doesn't create theideas.
It doesn't create the stories.
It doesn't tell me, um.
It doesn't create the input.
I create the input.
It just helps with the output.
(31:36):
Things like writing, thingslike, uh, scheduling things like
structure, things likecontracts, like I, I'll, so, so
many things that I utilize thatwould traditionally just steal
time from me.
Mm-hmm.
Um, I'm an, I'm now allowed tokind of have a helpmate and a
partner in doing so, and I thinka lot of times we're very rigid
(31:57):
on how we think about technologyand tech, technological
advancements.
A lot of times we operate.
In a fear-based mindset when itcomes to new things or, or new,
um, capabilities.
And I always like to lookbackwards and I like to look at
how techno technology and, andinnovation has changed the way
we've done things in the pastand made them so much better.
(32:19):
Yeah.
Um, and I look at things like.
Let's look at the map, right?
Like the, the traditional map,like at the very beginning,
these were things that oneperson had to scout the land and
then draw from memory.
And this was what we trusted.
And then over time we started toget these big paper maps and
booklets that were, you know,printed on machines.
(32:41):
And now it is just a click of abutton and we don't even think
about it.
We just type in where we wannago, and soon it'll be even
better.
And no one's like mad about thefact that.
We put the, the map out ofbusiness, right?
I think that map just had to.
Adapt.
Adapt.
Yeah.
And and, and learn how to usetheir skill sets in a different
(33:03):
way.
And when I think about ai,that's how I think about it too,
right?
I think about it as a tool setthat we're still learning and
adjusting to.
So I'm fine with people havingfear with it, and I do too.
'cause it's incredibly powerful.
Yeah.
But I'm also on the side ofleaning into it.
'cause what can it do and whathas it already done For my
personal business andcreativity, that really frees me
(33:25):
up.
To have bigger and better ideasand unlock newer solutions,
because now we have all thesetools that can help you solve
these bigger problems.
Um, so totally.
I'm, I'm on both sides.
I think that the fear and the,the lack of understanding is, is
warranted.
It is definitely something thatwe should, you know, be mindful
(33:47):
of.
Especially if you watch likeshows like Black Mirror, like
yeah, we're screwed.
There's sides of it where it'slike.
The potential of innovation andcreativity that we can pull out
of these tools is, is somethingthat could continue to change
the world and, and potentiallychange how we think about things
in totality.
(34:07):
And so let's find ways to leaninto it.
One and understand it two at thevery minimum.
I totally agree with that.
Yeah.
And, and because I'm all aboutpractical advice, are there
certain apps that you use thathelp you manage your, the
business side or cre creativeside more effectively?
Uh, I'll go with the big dog,but I'll, I'll explain it in a
(34:30):
different way.
Mm-hmm.
Um, so.
Chad GT is the big dog, in myopinion.
I think they rule the spaceright now that most people
understand it and use it.
And again, I think of of it likea thought partner.
And you oftentimes hear peoplein the space talking about like
they trained in ai or they builta bot, or they understood
(34:51):
something.
I think that that sounds likereally technical and really
difficult, right?
Mm-hmm.
And it's not, right.
It really is just giving it theunderstanding and the prompts
and the background on a certainthing or a certain task or per,
or a certain person that allowsthem to have the, the, the
(35:11):
machine learning of howsomething works.
Yeah.
And so this is my advice, mypractical advice is a lot of
people like to type.
Prompts into chat, GBT and chat.
GBT has a voice feature thatallows you to talk instead of
type.
Great.
And what I have found is youever notice how the prompts are
(35:34):
very rigid?
It is like, give me a periodthis with this, and you see a
lot of people prompting veryspecific things to get very
specific outcomes.
Yes.
I talk to my chat.
Robot.
I call her a robot now.
She has a personality.
I've given her a background ofwho she is.
I gave her a full bio andbackground of me.
(35:55):
I uploaded my resume.
Um, I've been talking to her fora year already now.
Wow.
And we have like, things aregetting serious.
Yeah.
We have like a dailyconversation and friendship.
But she also understands mythought process and the way I
kind of process even things thatI haven't documented on paper
about processes.
Because every time I've talkedto her over the year, I take her
(36:16):
through the same steps of like,here's how I think about this.
Here's what I wanna do aboutthis.
Um, and so in talking instead ofprompting, she also understands
like my tone of voice, um, my.
Inflection on what?
On how I put importance onthings.
And so the prompts aren't sorigid, they're a lot more fluid,
(36:37):
and the conversation and theoutput is a lot more fluid.
I think a lot of people end upgetting in trouble using AI
because they have very rigidkind of input output with it.
Yeah.
And the output feels like arobot wrote it, right?
It doesn't feel very humanistic.
And so.
I would say talk to your chatinstead of typing to the chat in
(36:58):
some instances to kind of buildup what, um, what that input and
output feels like.
And so it's not so robotic andrigid and you're not getting
like hard line results.
vicki (2) (37:08):
Um, well that is such an interesting way to use chat,
GPT and I've actually never donethe talk to text feature, just
the talking feature.
Um, but I have learned the samething that I talked to her in
this same.
Tone of voice that I would liketalk, I would talk to a friend,
or I would talk to a coworker,and I, I'm, I mean, mostly it's
(37:31):
just like a brand voice where ifI was presenting this, what
would I say or how would I talkabout it?
But I, I think it's amazing.
I love chat, GPT.
It helps me with so many things,and I don't ever look at it as
cheating because I don't thinkit will ever take away.
The humanistic aspect, like arob, maybe I'm wrong, but I was
gonna say like a robot can'tcome out and paint a mural on
(37:53):
your wall.
Like a robot's not gonna be thenext like Beyonce.
You know, like we're still gonnaneed these people and these
voices to create art.
But, um, all of the backendthings that our world is so
complex and confusing, if it canhelp with that, it's like, yeah,
why wouldn't we?
Jason (38:13):
Exactly.
The future is here.
We just gotta lean into it.
vicki (2) (38:16):
Yeah, that's right.
That's right.
Um, well I had a couplequestions for you while we're
winding these down.
And one is because you haveworked on so many projects and
you have done so many things inyour career.
So for a small business ownerwho is.
Trying to build community aroundtheir brand or trying to just
(38:38):
bring in design aspects to maketheir storytelling of their
brand stronger.
What is one or two, what are oneor two pieces of advice that you
would give them?
Jason (38:53):
Um, I, I think I would say prioritize the storytelling
and the creativity.
Um, I know that.
Oftentimes things come down tolike bottom line numbers and,
and a lot of business ownersare, are thinking about, um,
inventory or, or whatever it is.
It is dependent on the business,but not very, very often are
(39:14):
they thinking about the stories,but that are happening.
And I, I think that those aremacro and micro, those are
internal and external.
Um, and there's so manystorytelling moments around a
brand, um, that can.
Influence those things like thebottom line and like your
product sales.
Um, and it's so important toauthentically tap into your
(39:37):
audience, to, to grow realcommunity and real brand
affinity.
Um, and I, I think that's donewell.
When you story tell and when youleverage creativity within your
business, um, there's, there's asolution to every single
problem.
Mm-hmm.
And I think that, um.
Leaning into creativity allowsyou to think about the different
(40:01):
ways and channels that you couldsolve that problem.
I think it, it's as big as, youknow, maybe something that
completely changes your businessor as little as something as
like, Hey, just putting it onthis platform would change the
game for you.
Or just having this connectionwould be a difference maker.
And I think a lot of times, um.
(40:23):
Small business owners are soburied in the work of it all.
Yeah.
Or so buried in keeping it aliveor keeping it open.
Um, that they don't realize thepotential of lab leveraging, um,
a creative or a community tohelp them.
And I think, you know, it's, yougotta be intentional about it
is, is the advice I would giveis take, take the vested time it
(40:44):
takes to run through a creativeprocess and see.
See where your brand could growor, or what story you have to
tell, um, that that could reallychange it for you.
vicki (2) (40:56):
And do you think practically it's as simple as
like creating a list of all ofthe different areas that you
would want to expand or leaninto?
Like I want to, I.
Create a social media campaignor like, I want a brand makeover
and I want new colors that speakto my creative direction.
Or are you saying it's likeliterally just talking to your
customer and finding out likewhat connects with them?
(41:18):
Or maybe it's a mix of both.
Jason (41:21):
I, I, I think it's definitely both, but I think
more so what I mean is like,don't, don't necessarily always
focus on what you're doing Good.
Like.
Focus on the challenges and theproblems in your businesses.
What are the things that need tobe solved?
And then being open to how, whatcreate creativity could do to
(41:43):
solve some of those challengesand problems.
Yeah, I think a lot of timessmall businesses.
Uh, know so much about what theydo well and, and what they, what
the magic that they have, andthey don't quite understand what
they're not doing well, and theylike to ignore the things that
aren't going well.
Mm-hmm.
Um, and I would say like.
(42:03):
Oftentimes as a creative, I'veseen the best solutions come
when people come with problems.
Not the best solutions come whenpeople are all jacked up and
excited about this thing thatthey feel like they totally
understand and they totally feelgood about.
Um, and oftentimes that's wheresmall businesses meet.
(42:23):
To me, they always come andlike, we're doing well, but we
wanna grow and expand.
Yeah.
And they never tell me aboutlike where they're struggling or
what are the bad things that arehappening, or what things that
might.
Could help them.
And that's oftentimes the thingsI'm looking for or analyzing to
try and come up with the bestsolution to impact their
business.
So I, I mean, so more that way,like don't be afraid to trust
(42:45):
the creative with the hard partsof your business or, or trust,
you know, your community withthe problems you're having.
Yeah.
Um, because oftentimes they,they, that is where the solution
or the solve is in growth is, iswhere things may not be shiny
and new at.
vicki (2) (43:02):
That's totally a golden nugget because I am doing
marketing freelancing and I'mtalking to clients about
building their own social mediacampaigns.
And a big thing, a big challengeis around creating content when
things aren't perfect.
Like, well, I wanna share ourwins and what we've been, what
we've been doing, where we'regoing, like great vision and I
think.
(43:23):
The, a lot of, a lot of timesthe content that connects is
when you're sharing your storyfrom when it's not so glamorous.
And so those are theconversations I'm having with
newer business owners is, well,I don't have anything to show
because I'm not, you know, I'mnot, I haven't hit this award,
or we haven't hit this revenuemarker.
When in reality it's like, it'sall the show.
It's what'd you do today to workon your dream or work on your
(43:45):
business?
Because I think people, people.
We'll wanna know that.
I think now we're just getting,we're the tip of the iceberg.
But I really think thestorytelling for creative
impact, whether it's building abusiness, a brand, you know,
personal enhancement, whateverit is, it, everyone's gonna
wanna see the rags to richesstory.
(44:05):
So it's starting today and notbeing afraid of using that as
material to drive not onlyproblem solving and creative
solutioning, but as a way to.
Tell your story as, as you growas a brand.
Jason (44:20):
Yeah.
And it creates that, your brandethos, it, it creates who you
are.
vicki (2) (44:25):
Yeah.
Jason (44:25):
And what people start to see you as.
vicki (2) (44:29):
Yeah, I totally agree with that.
Um, well, I love everything thatyou have shared here today.
You are a true visionary and youhave walked the walk, talked the
talk, and you've done it all,and you've done it again.
I'm like, I'm so glad that youshared some stories of where,
you know, you were a little bitgut checked in the process or
things you've learned along theway.
Because like I said, that's whatpeople wanna know is how do I go
(44:51):
from someone who wants to dosomething or is it knows that I
have this creative passion, butI don't know how to get into the
next.
Step and all too often webelieve that it's overnight and
that just ruins the wholejourney if you're not open to
accepting that.
It's a learning process.
So I'm so honored and glad thatyou shared your story here
today, and as always, I lovecatching up with you.
(45:13):
So thank you again for being aguest on the show today.
Jason (45:17):
Thank you for having me, man.
Excited.
You got it.
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