April 1, 2025 • 30 mins
Slips, trips, and falls are a persistent problem across industries. Despite extensive studies, detailed recommendations, and countless safety initiatives, these incidents continue to rank as the number one cause of workplace injuries. Learn how these safety risks can be symptoms of an unhealthy company safety culture with Tim Wilson, Safety and Risk Services Regiona Manager at MEM.
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Episode Transcript
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(00:04):
Hello.
Welcome to the WorkSafe podcast.
On each episode, we share conversationsabout workplace safety strategies,
work comp expertise and storiesto help you on your journey
to a safe, healthy and strong workplace.
The WorkSafe podcast is brought to youby MNM.
Before we begin, today,we want to thank you all for listening
(00:25):
and ask a favor.
We are always workingto reach more people.
So if you find our content valuable,we would appreciate it
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and give us a rating or reviewon your favorite podcast platform.
With that, let's get today's conversationstarted.
Here's our host, Heather Carl.
(00:46):
Welcome to today's episode.
Todaywe're diving into a workplace safety topic
that's been a top concern for decades.
Slips, trips and falls.
Despite extensive studies, detailedrecommendations, and countless safety
initiatives, these incidentscontinue to rank
as the number onecause of workplace injuries.
(01:09):
So why is this problem so persistent?
And what can we do toactually make real progress?
To help us unpack this critical issue.
We're joined by Tim Wilson.
Tim is an MEM's safety and risk servicesregional manager.
He has more than 20 years of workplacesafety and risk management
experience, and we're gratefulto have him on the show.
(01:31):
Thanks for joining us, Tim.
Thank you for having me.
Well, as we just mentioned in the intro,slips, trips and falls
have been an issuefor as long as any of us can remember.
So I'm wondering why,despite all the research and safety
initiatives, does this problem continue
(01:52):
to be the lead workplace injury caused?
Yeah, that's a good question.
And it's it's a big question.
When you think aboutall the different circumstance sources
that can lead to a slip, a trip or a fall.
Add to that the fact that every workplacehas exposures to slips, trips and falls
(02:12):
to some degree, and we could spend hourspeeling back the layers of the onion.
But if I had to point my fingerat one particular topic
that contributes the most to the trending,
it would be a culture of complacencyat all levels of the organization.
So upper management not developingor fully supporting expectations,
(02:32):
middle managementnot training or enforcing expectations.
Then your frontline employeesnot following the expectations,
not paying attention to their surroundings
or considering the consequences of unsafebehaviors.
We've talkedabout the issue of complacency
many times on the podcast,and I think it's interesting that
(02:53):
that was your go to as far aswhat's really at the root of the problem,
and it seems to beat the root of many safety problems.
So it doesn't completely surprise me.
And it's not changed over the years.
You know, the causes of these problemshas stayed the same.
It's just a matter ofwhy are we not actually addressing them
in an effective manner? Yeah, absolutely.
(03:15):
And those those physical hazardsare easy to correct.
It's the cultural side of thingsthat's more difficult.
And that's when you are ableto rectify things on that end.
That's when you have your longestlasting and most fruitful
workplace advancements and safety.
Well, I appreciate that becausewe also talk about culture and workplace
(03:37):
safety cultures and all of those thingsand how they can impact
a business's, you know, rate of injuryin those types of things.
So would you say thathuman behavior was workplace culture
or the physical environmentthat an employee works in?
Create the biggest challenge.
Yeah.
So the answer is almost always
(04:00):
the synergistic relationshipbetween culture and behavior.
And unfortunately,there's no switch that can be thrown
that fixes your culture or correctsall of your behaviors.
Turns out that it's a process, sometimesa slow process of continual improvement.
And as one of those aspects, cultureor behavior improves or degrades,
(04:21):
it tends to drag the otherin the same direction.
And when that momentumis in the negative direction,
then you could say thatthe culture is less healthy
and there will be symptomsfrom this perspective.
Uncontrolledhazards are symptoms of deeper problems.
And what I mean by all this is that bybuilding a safety conscious culture,
(04:44):
we encourage those safe behaviorsat all levels of the organization,
which over time helps to fortifyyour organization against the fallout
from that culture of complacencythat we talked about earlier.
Well, several yearsago, EMS started our safety grants program
to kind of helpwith some of the different barriers
(05:04):
that we just mentionedand some of those challenges as to what
why don't slips and trips and falls getbetter, you know, those types of things.
And so the idea behind the grantsprogram was to help our policy holders
with obtaining equipmentthat they need to help
keep their employees safeand encourage them to look for
even new advancementsin technology around, you know, what?
(05:30):
What can we do differently?
And giving our policy holdersan opportunity to try some of these
different types of approachesto reducing their injuries?
Can you share with us a little bit about,in your experience,
what types of advancements in technologyor just safety practices
that you've seenthat actually have been somewhat effective
(05:53):
in addressing the issue of slips, tripsand falls?
Yeah, yeah.
So thanks for bringing up the safetygrant program.
It's been a wildly successful programfor us and helping policyholders
purchase equipment to better controltheir hazards
and applications,requesting equipment for addressing
slips, trips and falls are amongsome of the most commonly awarded.
(06:14):
In fact, they accountfor about a quarter of the volume
of grants awarded and a quarterof the dollars that have been spent
in that regard concerningtechnological advancements.
Every year we see incremental improvementsin new products for securing ladders
to rooftops or personal fall protectionor floor treatments, and so on.
(06:36):
We're also seeing advancementsin AI enabled products,
such as software that monitorsyour existing surveillance cameras
and can identify and send alertswhen employees have fallen,
or even they can even identify and report
hazards such as liquid spillsor housekeeping issues.
Pretty cool stuff.
(06:58):
We also see a great deal of effortbeing put towards smart products,
ladders being one example,and as sensor technology and the Internet
of Things continues to improve,we need to keep our eyes on this space.
But the basics are still the basics.
And when it comes to operations,facilities and equipment,
(07:20):
I would encourage folksto entertain the new tech,
but to focus on the basics,which are engineering out the hazards
whenever possible, maintainingyour walkways, ensuring adequate
lighting in encouraging,really fostering situational awareness.
That's absolutely huge,
and then providing the proper equipmentto our folks that are working at heights.
(07:40):
And this means keeping them off laddersas much as possible.
So using those lifts and ensuringthat we got to use that fall protection,
that you're providing themthe right equipment
that's adequate for the joband that it's consistently being used.
I think that's a great wayto break down ways to approach it.
And so one of the piecesthat you mentioned, there were ladders.
(08:02):
And obviouslypeople can fall from ladders.
That's an easy one.
But I know we did a campaign
a few years ago that really kind of talkedabout using ladders
last kind of as a last resort,looking at your other options first.
And you know why that's important?
Because I know we see a lot of falls
from from ladders at various differentheights and those types of things.
(08:24):
So I was wondering if you could expanda little bit more for our listeners,
what industries do we see the most?
Slips, trips and falls.
And now I'm assuming we're going to saysomething that involves ladders,
but I'd be interested here to seeany other of the top contenders there too.
Well, it really depends on slips.
(08:44):
Trips and falls is such a broad category.
If so, I'll break it intointo two different two different buckets
here, same levelevents and falls from heights.
And when it comes to the same levelevents, well, that's everybody
has exposure to this because everybodyhas people walking right now.
You're industries that are going to bemore problematic are going to be
(09:06):
those that expose folks moreso to walking in hazardous situations.
So think of walking outside in inclementweather, on ice, working
in, say, a cafeteria where you're likelyto have green beans spilled on the floor.
That's where you're most likelyto see those types of slips, trips,
same level events.
You can also experience them outin your job sites.
(09:28):
If you think about a house being builtand the ground around that house,
it's never level, so they're constantlyhaving to negotiate uneven terrain.
Once again, I talked about it earlier, but
a situational awarenessis absolutely key there.
And then you've got those fallfrom heights and you're going to see those
from your, youryour roofers, your tree trimmers,
(09:52):
folks that are putting up holidaylights on buildings.
They can they can come from all sortsof different industries and oftentimes
industries that you wouldn'tthink of having fall
from heights, exposures,especially if it's just ladders,
because just about every typeof a business out
there has a ladder out in the shopsomewhere, and they have it for a reason.
They need it every nowand then to do something.
(10:13):
So but you're absolutely right.Ladders are huge.
And we had that push a few years back.
Ladders last.
That'sstill a motto that we try to live by.
And being a long time member of the safetyGrant Review Committee.
So reviewing those safety grantsas they come in, any time we see one
that is minimizing the use of ladders,
(10:35):
our ears perk up and we get excitedbecause we
we know that the return on investmentis going to be there.
Yeah, I love that.
I mean, it not only is it kind of catchy,right ladders last, but it really
it makes a lot of sense.
And obviously sometimes
you do have to use onethat might be the right tool for the job,
but when you have access to other optionsthat are more stable
(10:59):
and you know those types of things,it sure makes sense to invest in them
or at least use what you have for sure.
Absolutely.
So, you know,
sometimes the ladder is the only optionthat'll work for the situation.
But that doesn't meanwe throw the baby out with the bathwater.
So use those lifts,like you say whenever you can,
and minimizethe ladder usage as much as possible.
(11:21):
I know we've talked before about fallingjust from all kinds of different heights.
Right?
And so I think sometimes people also
only relate falling from heights
to a roof or somewhere even, you know,higher than a roof or something like that.
And so what's interesting is when we lookat our statistics and claims numbers
(11:44):
and all of those things, is thatyou can get hurt, you know, just as badly
from just a small ladder that you havewhen you used to work around
your house on the guttersor painting or something like that.
And I think that's something peopledon't really think about.
They consider it
an occupational hazard for peoplemaybe that work at great heights.
(12:04):
But it's not just that.
Oh, absolutely.
When I was a very young consultantin the field, one of the first
fatality investigations that I ever wasever charged with investigating
was a fall from a ladder.
It was a five foot fall,
24 year old and he's no longer with us.
It doesn't take much.
The human body can be very resilient,but it can also be very fragile.
(12:29):
Yeah, that's a greatthat's a great reminder, Tim.
I think even if you're someonethat doesn't work on them, work
with a ladder normallyor from a very tall height,
it's important to remember how you knowyou hit the right way.
You hit on the right, the right type of surface.
Any of those things, it can.It can be life changing.
And so another piece that you mentionedwas situational awareness.
(12:52):
You've mentioned it a couple timesand that to me is something that
is one of those things where we thinkabout, well, come on people,
just pay attention to where you areand what's around you and all the things.
And it's really easy to say that.
But then again,every time you go somewhere,
whether it's a walk in your neighborhoodor the grocery store or crossing
(13:14):
the street, people are on devices andand they're not paying attention
to where they are.So it's not just when you're in a car.
They're, you know, they're walking aroundand not paying attention.
And, you know, you could be in a settinglike health care or school
or something like that,
where you have a lot of different typesof liquids and things
like that, that a restaurant oftenend up on the floor.
(13:36):
You could easily slip inor tripping over a cord.
Things like that are usuallybecause someone's distracted in one way
shape or form.
Can you talk a little bit moreabout how we approach some,
you know, pretty practical waysto help people avoid those,
those types of things where at thethey're like you mentioned before,
it's not from heights, but it's from,you know, basically the ground, right?
(13:58):
You're on one,one surface, one level surface.
Yeah.
So I'm going to I'm going to divertback to the basics time and time again.
It's developing expectationsand if you're one of those expectations
may be limited.
Use of mobile devicesunder certain situations
(14:18):
give you a good examplefor the end of the school day,
the teachers and the aides are outguiding the children to the busses.
Probably not the time to be on your phone.
There's your know how many claimsI've seen in that exact situation,
just stepping off of the curband twisting the ankle wrong.
So it's setting those expectations.
It's training on them.
(14:39):
And in the trainingyou've got to show examples,
show them what the consequencesare of not paying attention
to this, to this hazard,this hazard that we negotiate every day
and we get very comfortable
with the comfortable comfortabilityleads to complacency.
So trying to get through to them,why are we stressing this.
(15:02):
And then enforcement enforcement.
So supervisors but also those frontlineemployees just watching out
for each other.
Hey Bob, now'sprobably not the time to be on your phone
watching out for each other.
The basics remain the keys.
Well, speaking of training,
I know we always encourage policyholders
(15:23):
to have a variety of trainings availableand so that may include
an onboarding process for new hires.
It may include regular safety meetings
or having meetingsin different types of formats.
Because some people learn more visually,some people audio,
you know, those types of thingslike being able to kind of really engage
(15:44):
personally with your employeesand not just maybe sending an email
that says, do these five things or,you know,
putting up a posteror something like that,
but really actuallyhaving that communication.
And I was wondering if in your experience,you could tell us how effective training
has been in reducing slips, tripsand falls over the years?
(16:06):
Well, it's it'sone of the absolute key components.
And you heard me give this list earlier,but the key components for any safety
program is developing your strategies,your policies, your rules, whatever
you want to call them, your expectationsof how you want to control the hazard,
and training on those expectationsand enforcing those expectations.
So a failure at anyone of those three points
(16:29):
significantly erodes the effectivenessof the entire the entire effort.
And when it comes to training,there's just so many
quality strategies out therethat we don't need to automatically defer
to the standard boring training timeafter time after time.
Mix it up, make it interesting,try to get them involved.
(16:50):
Ask them questions.
Have some of the frontline employeeshelp with the training.
Get them to have some ownership in it
and look for different training formats,
whether it's videos or handoutsor whatever it may be.
But when it comes to common gaps
that we seewhen when it comes to training,
(17:11):
you touched on this a little bit earlier,but that new hire training,
that's a absolutely huge one.
But not only the new hard trainingfollowing up on it
when you start a new jobthat first six months,
that first few months, it'sjust a whirlwind of information.
And part of that is the safety training.
You need to go back to themat a later date and follow up on it
(17:33):
to touch that that on those topics again.
And that's a that's a common gapthat we see missing in training programs
and then not holding supervisorsaccountable for enforcing policy.
It's so hard to take your training seriouswhen you know, at the end of the day,
you're not going tobe held accountable for it.
And both of those gaps
(17:55):
ultimately are symptomaticof that culture of complacency.
We talked about.
Well, I'm glad you circled back to that,because I wanted to kind of ask you
a little bitmore about a good safety culture and,
you know,you kind of hear it from everywhere
when people talk about that topic,that it starts with the top down.
And that's very true and in a lot of ways.
(18:15):
So I wondered if you could expanda little bit about what role leadership
and the overall company culture play
in kind of mitigatingthese types of hazards
and how leaders can really ensurethat safety
isn't just a policy or a set of policies,
but it's definitely a priority.
(18:37):
Yeah. Great question.
And leadership engagement and support
are absolutely vitalto effectively controlling any hazard.
If you think about it, they setthe expectations are set by them, training
is required by them, and accountabilityenforcement is held by them.
And it's one of the first thingsthey can do.
(18:58):
One of the most important thingsthey can do
is to walk the walk and lead by example.
When you're out on the productionfloor, doesn't matter
if you're the president or CEO,you have your safety glasses on.
If you don't have your safety glasses onand one of your
your team members says something to you,you thank them
and you go get a pair of safety glassesand you put it on and you reinforce that
(19:22):
that culture where everyone is, is,is willing to
and committed to the safety of themselvesas well as their coworkers,
even if it's the boss, the head boss.
So ultimately, building that safetyculture, it absolutely starts
with leadership.
Not that they have to haveall the answers up front.
(19:42):
Not that, like I said earlier,there's no magic lever.
They can pull.
It takes a committed effortsometimes over the course
of years, to get culturesreally turned around
and really seeing the full ramificationsout outflow
of getting everybody on boardwith that safety, that safety life.
Yeah.
You know, we hear,
a lot of different ways that businessestry to incentivize safety as well.
(20:08):
You know, and looking at that as a toolthat may reach some employees
that simply just talking about itor training on it or even walking
the walk as a leader,sometimes that extra an incentive,
whatever, whether it'sfinancial or recognition or whatever
that may look like, can really,you know, make a difference
(20:28):
in stuff that people justtake for granted every day.
Yeah, yeah.
One of the most powerful messages,I think, that you can,
you can use in getting your, your,
your managementand your frontline employees on board
is to get the message through to themthat it's not about them,
that there's somebody out therethat needs them, that relies on them,
(20:50):
that loves them,and they need them to come home,
and they need them to come homewith complete bodies and full capacity.
And, that it's that it's not always about you.
It's about them as well.
So look after yourselfbecause you're needed.
That's a great reminder to him.
And I appreciate you sharing that.
I know we've also talked about thatquite a bit as well on the podcast.
(21:11):
And, you know, that kind of leads meto another question I have is
if you have any examples of industriesor businesses
that have actually moved the needlein decreasing the occurrence of slips,
trips and falls,
and I know that can be donein a variety of ways,
but I'd love itif you could share some examples
(21:32):
with us of thingsthat you've seen that actually work.
Yeah.
So at the industry level,the it tends to be
those folks are who are more heavilyregulated.
So your health care,your large commercial contractors,
those are the folks that tendto have their ducks in a row.
They tend to have the the resources to buy
the latest equipmentand be really well set in that regard.
(21:55):
At the organizational level,we find a subset of employers
that are there that are proactivelyrealizing and internalizing
and have built a culture on the factthat safety pays and we see them.
Yeah, it's across
a broad spectrum of industries.
While it's not a huge group,
they are across the broadspectrum of industries.
And then we seewe finally see those that see the light,
(22:19):
but only after having experienceda large loss.
So in these industries and the typesof companies or businesses that you just
mentioned that are actually that
we see being successfulin making a difference
in regard to slips, trips and falls.
Can you maybe talk a little bitabout how they've done that?
(22:43):
So I know early on in the conversation youmentioned things like floor treatments.
We talked about situational awareness,but also engineering,
you know, around hazards andtrying to make sure those things are gone.
Are there some things that you seepretty consistently that have helped
a lot of our policyholdersin reducing those claims?
(23:06):
Yeah.
So as I in preparation for today's
conversation, I was searchingmy memory banks about policyholders
who have had success storiesand a couple of them that come to mind.
To answer your question,I think of a trucking operation,
pretty large operationback in the 2018, 2020 timeframe.
They had a series of slips
(23:28):
and trips or slips on ice,and they were pretty, pretty significant.
When you looked at the
the claim dollars, and they ended upworking with one of our consultants
and developed an action planwhich involved hazard awareness training
and providingand requiring the use of ice cleats.
And since that time,they've had a wonderful turnaround. And,
(23:52):
they have not had any slips on icesince then.
So we consider that, you know, a successstory, I think, of a roofing contractor
that was a medium sizedcommercial roofing contractor.
These folks,
I knew them back when I was a consultant,and they have just always been top notch.
They've always been proactive,and they really focused early on
(24:13):
on developing their safety policies andmaking sure that they were up to snuff,
making sure that they trainand that they keep the training fresh
and they're constantly retraining.
It's just a part of the of the process.
And they really, reallyhold their supervisors,
their foremen, accountablefor enforcing those safety policies.
(24:34):
Those folks actuallylast year were awarded a safety grant
for a piece of equipment.
I want to say
it was a scissor lift, that, of course,scissor lifts, keeping folks up ladders
that directlyaddresses that loose ball from heights.
And then finally, I think ofI think of a large
it was a it's a religious organizationthat we insure.
(24:55):
And for yearsthey battled same level events.
So slips and trips on the samelevels, stairways and that sort of thing.
They started working withone of our consultants a few years back
and really focused in on general hazardawareness
via training, posters, safety handouts,
(25:16):
inclement weather announcements,you know, reminders.
We're going to have snow,we're going to have ice.
Let's watch, you know, where we're puttingour feet and walk slowly and so on.
And quite a few hazard inspections.
And so far the strategy'sbeen very successful for them.
We've seen a significant drop in the volume of claims over the last three years. So
(25:38):
from thosethree examples, what I pull from that.
Well, the big one for meis that each of them sought help
in this, this particular case,it was help from our safety
and risk services department.
And they worked with their consultantsand they tailored a custom plan to suit
their needs that the consultantand the policyholder felt
(26:00):
would would best servethe needs of the situation at hand.
And they both they committed themselvesto this action plan.
And sometimes it took a yearto see the full ramifications.
But it's it's that commitmentto changing things.
And the magic equation for you
is going to be slightly differentthan everybody else.
(26:22):
Well, I think those are great examples
and just ways to startframing up the conversation.
If you don't already have a plan in placeor a policy or policies in place
in your business that address these typesof these types of incidents.
So anything that could be considereda slip, trip or fall.
And it is interesting to think abouthow we really all definitely encounter
(26:48):
those, those same level surface thingson a daily basis, no matter what you do.
And so it's importantto take a look at it.
As we wrap up today,we like to leave our listeners
with something that they can take awayand really start working towards
making a difference,
you know, just from this conversation,at least some ideas and, and,
and things like that,that they can begin working through.
(27:09):
So I was wonderingif you could share with us.
I know we talked about a lot,but you're the top two things
that you think an employer can do to help
employeesreduce these types of incidents and make,
you know, this year,a turning point for safety.
Okay.
All right.
Well, my my top two lists,they tend to morph into 2 or 3.
(27:32):
So we'll see how it goes.
But through the lens of slipstrips and falls,
once you've committed yourselfto fostering that safety culture,
then I would encourage folksto take a two pronged approach.
If you're struggling with those same levelevents,
focus your efforts on housekeeping,preventative maintenance,
and enhancing that situational awareness.
(27:55):
If you find yourself dealing with fallsfrom heights,
then you have to draw this linein the sand
and commit yourselfto developing those safe expectations,
training on those expectations,enforcing those expectations.
And why do I saydraw a line in the sand here?
Because falls from heights.
They change lives.
They take livesand they absolutely crush profitability.
(28:18):
Oh, I told you I'd be 3 or 4.
Don't forget your instant investigations.
Even for those same level events,which oftentimes get overlooked
when it comes to instant investigation,near-miss investigations,
they're absolutely vital for itbecause otherwise
you're not going to knowwhat your root causes are.
And if you don't knowwhat your root causes are,
you don't know what the changes
to make to minimizethe likelihood of future occurrences.
(28:42):
And finally, I'd like to remind everyone
that EMS, Safety and Risk Servicescan provide expert consultation
on slips, trips and falls,or any other hazards
that you may find yourselfstruggling with.
Well, thank you Tim.
And yes,your top four is definitely allowed.
We're not going to cut any of that out.
It's all good stuff.
So so I appreciate that.
(29:03):
We appreciate you.
And I know our listeners are goingto benefit from this conversation
and you justsharing your insights with us.
That was my pleasure.
And I'd like to thank our listenersfor tuning in.
We'll see you nexttime on the WorkSafe podcast.
(29:28):
Thank you for listening to the WorkSafepodcast.
Brought to you by MEM.
If you like this episode,be sure to subscribe
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We love to connect with our listeners.
If you have comments, questions,or suggestions for topics, please
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(29:53):
For even more resourcesand industry insights,
visit us at MEM-INS.com.
Hello.
Welcome to the WorkSafe podcast.
On each episode, we share conversationsabout workplace safety strategies,
work comp expertise and storiesto help you on your journey
to a safe, healthy and strong workplace.
The WorkSafe podcast is brought to youby MNM.
Before we begin, today,we want to thank you all for listening
(00:25):
and ask a favor.
We are always workingto reach more people.
So if you find our content valuable,we would appreciate it
if you would share our show with others
and give us a rating or reviewon your favorite podcast platform.
With that, let's get today's conversationstarted.
Here's our host, Heather Carl.
(00:46):
Welcome to today's episode.
Todaywe're diving into a workplace safety topic
that's been a top concern for decades.
Slips, trips and falls.
Despite extensive studies, detailedrecommendations, and countless safety
initiatives, these incidentscontinue to rank
as the number onecause of workplace injuries.
(01:09):
So why is this problem so persistent?
And what can we do toactually make real progress?
To help us unpack this critical issue.
We're joined by Tim Wilson.
Tim is an MEM's safety and risk servicesregional manager.
He has more than 20 years of workplacesafety and risk management
experience, and we're gratefulto have him on the show.
(01:31):
Thanks for joining us, Tim.
Thank you for having me.
Well, as we just mentioned in the intro,slips, trips and falls
have been an issuefor as long as any of us can remember.
So I'm wondering why,despite all the research and safety
initiatives, does this problem continue
(01:52):
to be the lead workplace injury caused?
Yeah, that's a good question.
And it's it's a big question.
When you think aboutall the different circumstance sources
that can lead to a slip, a trip or a fall.
Add to that the fact that every workplacehas exposures to slips, trips and falls
(02:12):
to some degree, and we could spend hourspeeling back the layers of the onion.
But if I had to point my fingerat one particular topic
that contributes the most to the trending,
it would be a culture of complacencyat all levels of the organization.
So upper management not developingor fully supporting expectations,
(02:32):
middle managementnot training or enforcing expectations.
Then your frontline employeesnot following the expectations,
not paying attention to their surroundings
or considering the consequences of unsafebehaviors.
We've talkedabout the issue of complacency
many times on the podcast,and I think it's interesting that
(02:53):
that was your go to as far aswhat's really at the root of the problem,
and it seems to beat the root of many safety problems.
So it doesn't completely surprise me.
And it's not changed over the years.
You know, the causes of these problemshas stayed the same.
It's just a matter ofwhy are we not actually addressing them
in an effective manner? Yeah, absolutely.
(03:15):
And those those physical hazardsare easy to correct.
It's the cultural side of thingsthat's more difficult.
And that's when you are ableto rectify things on that end.
That's when you have your longestlasting and most fruitful
workplace advancements and safety.
Well, I appreciate that becausewe also talk about culture and workplace
(03:37):
safety cultures and all of those thingsand how they can impact
a business's, you know, rate of injuryin those types of things.
So would you say thathuman behavior was workplace culture
or the physical environmentthat an employee works in?
Create the biggest challenge.
Yeah.
So the answer is almost always
(04:00):
the synergistic relationshipbetween culture and behavior.
And unfortunately,there's no switch that can be thrown
that fixes your culture or correctsall of your behaviors.
Turns out that it's a process, sometimesa slow process of continual improvement.
And as one of those aspects, cultureor behavior improves or degrades,
(04:21):
it tends to drag the otherin the same direction.
And when that momentumis in the negative direction,
then you could say thatthe culture is less healthy
and there will be symptomsfrom this perspective.
Uncontrolledhazards are symptoms of deeper problems.
And what I mean by all this is that bybuilding a safety conscious culture,
(04:44):
we encourage those safe behaviorsat all levels of the organization,
which over time helps to fortifyyour organization against the fallout
from that culture of complacencythat we talked about earlier.
Well, several yearsago, EMS started our safety grants program
to kind of helpwith some of the different barriers
(05:04):
that we just mentionedand some of those challenges as to what
why don't slips and trips and falls getbetter, you know, those types of things.
And so the idea behind the grantsprogram was to help our policy holders
with obtaining equipmentthat they need to help
keep their employees safeand encourage them to look for
even new advancementsin technology around, you know, what?
(05:30):
What can we do differently?
And giving our policy holdersan opportunity to try some of these
different types of approachesto reducing their injuries?
Can you share with us a little bit about,in your experience,
what types of advancements in technologyor just safety practices
that you've seenthat actually have been somewhat effective
(05:53):
in addressing the issue of slips, tripsand falls?
Yeah, yeah.
So thanks for bringing up the safetygrant program.
It's been a wildly successful programfor us and helping policyholders
purchase equipment to better controltheir hazards
and applications,requesting equipment for addressing
slips, trips and falls are amongsome of the most commonly awarded.
(06:14):
In fact, they accountfor about a quarter of the volume
of grants awarded and a quarterof the dollars that have been spent
in that regard concerningtechnological advancements.
Every year we see incremental improvementsin new products for securing ladders
to rooftops or personal fall protectionor floor treatments, and so on.
(06:36):
We're also seeing advancementsin AI enabled products,
such as software that monitorsyour existing surveillance cameras
and can identify and send alertswhen employees have fallen,
or even they can even identify and report
hazards such as liquid spillsor housekeeping issues.
Pretty cool stuff.
(06:58):
We also see a great deal of effortbeing put towards smart products,
ladders being one example,and as sensor technology and the Internet
of Things continues to improve,we need to keep our eyes on this space.
But the basics are still the basics.
And when it comes to operations,facilities and equipment,
(07:20):
I would encourage folksto entertain the new tech,
but to focus on the basics,which are engineering out the hazards
whenever possible, maintainingyour walkways, ensuring adequate
lighting in encouraging,really fostering situational awareness.
That's absolutely huge,
and then providing the proper equipmentto our folks that are working at heights.
(07:40):
And this means keeping them off laddersas much as possible.
So using those lifts and ensuringthat we got to use that fall protection,
that you're providing themthe right equipment
that's adequate for the joband that it's consistently being used.
I think that's a great wayto break down ways to approach it.
And so one of the piecesthat you mentioned, there were ladders.
(08:02):
And obviouslypeople can fall from ladders.
That's an easy one.
But I know we did a campaign
a few years ago that really kind of talkedabout using ladders
last kind of as a last resort,looking at your other options first.
And you know why that's important?
Because I know we see a lot of falls
from from ladders at various differentheights and those types of things.
(08:24):
So I was wondering if you could expanda little bit more for our listeners,
what industries do we see the most?
Slips, trips and falls.
And now I'm assuming we're going to saysomething that involves ladders,
but I'd be interested here to seeany other of the top contenders there too.
Well, it really depends on slips.
(08:44):
Trips and falls is such a broad category.
If so, I'll break it intointo two different two different buckets
here, same levelevents and falls from heights.
And when it comes to the same levelevents, well, that's everybody
has exposure to this because everybodyhas people walking right now.
You're industries that are going to bemore problematic are going to be
(09:06):
those that expose folks moreso to walking in hazardous situations.
So think of walking outside in inclementweather, on ice, working
in, say, a cafeteria where you're likelyto have green beans spilled on the floor.
That's where you're most likelyto see those types of slips, trips,
same level events.
You can also experience them outin your job sites.
(09:28):
If you think about a house being builtand the ground around that house,
it's never level, so they're constantlyhaving to negotiate uneven terrain.
Once again, I talked about it earlier, but
a situational awarenessis absolutely key there.
And then you've got those fallfrom heights and you're going to see those
from your, youryour roofers, your tree trimmers,
(09:52):
folks that are putting up holidaylights on buildings.
They can they can come from all sortsof different industries and oftentimes
industries that you wouldn'tthink of having fall
from heights, exposures,especially if it's just ladders,
because just about every typeof a business out
there has a ladder out in the shopsomewhere, and they have it for a reason.
They need it every nowand then to do something.
(10:13):
So but you're absolutely right.Ladders are huge.
And we had that push a few years back.
Ladders last.
That'sstill a motto that we try to live by.
And being a long time member of the safetyGrant Review Committee.
So reviewing those safety grantsas they come in, any time we see one
that is minimizing the use of ladders,
(10:35):
our ears perk up and we get excitedbecause we
we know that the return on investmentis going to be there.
Yeah, I love that.
I mean, it not only is it kind of catchy,right ladders last, but it really
it makes a lot of sense.
And obviously sometimes
you do have to use onethat might be the right tool for the job,
but when you have access to other optionsthat are more stable
(10:59):
and you know those types of things,it sure makes sense to invest in them
or at least use what you have for sure.
Absolutely.
So, you know,
sometimes the ladder is the only optionthat'll work for the situation.
But that doesn't meanwe throw the baby out with the bathwater.
So use those lifts,like you say whenever you can,
and minimizethe ladder usage as much as possible.
(11:21):
I know we've talked before about fallingjust from all kinds of different heights.
Right?
And so I think sometimes people also
only relate falling from heights
to a roof or somewhere even, you know,higher than a roof or something like that.
And so what's interesting is when we lookat our statistics and claims numbers
(11:44):
and all of those things, is thatyou can get hurt, you know, just as badly
from just a small ladder that you havewhen you used to work around
your house on the guttersor painting or something like that.
And I think that's something peopledon't really think about.
They consider it
an occupational hazard for peoplemaybe that work at great heights.
(12:04):
But it's not just that.
Oh, absolutely.
When I was a very young consultantin the field, one of the first
fatality investigations that I ever wasever charged with investigating
was a fall from a ladder.
It was a five foot fall,
24 year old and he's no longer with us.
It doesn't take much.
The human body can be very resilient,but it can also be very fragile.
(12:29):
Yeah, that's a greatthat's a great reminder, Tim.
I think even if you're someonethat doesn't work on them, work
with a ladder normallyor from a very tall height,
it's important to remember how you knowyou hit the right way.
You hit on the right, the right type of surface.
Any of those things, it can.It can be life changing.
And so another piece that you mentionedwas situational awareness.
(12:52):
You've mentioned it a couple timesand that to me is something that
is one of those things where we thinkabout, well, come on people,
just pay attention to where you areand what's around you and all the things.
And it's really easy to say that.
But then again,every time you go somewhere,
whether it's a walk in your neighborhoodor the grocery store or crossing
(13:14):
the street, people are on devices andand they're not paying attention
to where they are.So it's not just when you're in a car.
They're, you know, they're walking aroundand not paying attention.
And, you know, you could be in a settinglike health care or school
or something like that,
where you have a lot of different typesof liquids and things
like that, that a restaurant oftenend up on the floor.
(13:36):
You could easily slip inor tripping over a cord.
Things like that are usuallybecause someone's distracted in one way
shape or form.
Can you talk a little bit moreabout how we approach some,
you know, pretty practical waysto help people avoid those,
those types of things where at thethey're like you mentioned before,
it's not from heights, but it's from,you know, basically the ground, right?
(13:58):
You're on one,one surface, one level surface.
Yeah.
So I'm going to I'm going to divertback to the basics time and time again.
It's developing expectationsand if you're one of those expectations
may be limited.
Use of mobile devicesunder certain situations
(14:18):
give you a good examplefor the end of the school day,
the teachers and the aides are outguiding the children to the busses.
Probably not the time to be on your phone.
There's your know how many claimsI've seen in that exact situation,
just stepping off of the curband twisting the ankle wrong.
So it's setting those expectations.
It's training on them.
(14:39):
And in the trainingyou've got to show examples,
show them what the consequencesare of not paying attention
to this, to this hazard,this hazard that we negotiate every day
and we get very comfortable
with the comfortable comfortabilityleads to complacency.
So trying to get through to them,why are we stressing this.
(15:02):
And then enforcement enforcement.
So supervisors but also those frontlineemployees just watching out
for each other.
Hey Bob, now'sprobably not the time to be on your phone
watching out for each other.
The basics remain the keys.
Well, speaking of training,
I know we always encourage policyholders
(15:23):
to have a variety of trainings availableand so that may include
an onboarding process for new hires.
It may include regular safety meetings
or having meetingsin different types of formats.
Because some people learn more visually,some people audio,
you know, those types of thingslike being able to kind of really engage
(15:44):
personally with your employeesand not just maybe sending an email
that says, do these five things or,you know,
putting up a posteror something like that,
but really actuallyhaving that communication.
And I was wondering if in your experience,you could tell us how effective training
has been in reducing slips, tripsand falls over the years?
(16:06):
Well, it's it'sone of the absolute key components.
And you heard me give this list earlier,but the key components for any safety
program is developing your strategies,your policies, your rules, whatever
you want to call them, your expectationsof how you want to control the hazard,
and training on those expectationsand enforcing those expectations.
So a failure at anyone of those three points
(16:29):
significantly erodes the effectivenessof the entire the entire effort.
And when it comes to training,there's just so many
quality strategies out therethat we don't need to automatically defer
to the standard boring training timeafter time after time.
Mix it up, make it interesting,try to get them involved.
(16:50):
Ask them questions.
Have some of the frontline employeeshelp with the training.
Get them to have some ownership in it
and look for different training formats,
whether it's videos or handoutsor whatever it may be.
But when it comes to common gaps
that we seewhen when it comes to training,
(17:11):
you touched on this a little bit earlier,but that new hire training,
that's a absolutely huge one.
But not only the new hard trainingfollowing up on it
when you start a new jobthat first six months,
that first few months, it'sjust a whirlwind of information.
And part of that is the safety training.
You need to go back to themat a later date and follow up on it
(17:33):
to touch that that on those topics again.
And that's a that's a common gapthat we see missing in training programs
and then not holding supervisorsaccountable for enforcing policy.
It's so hard to take your training seriouswhen you know, at the end of the day,
you're not going tobe held accountable for it.
And both of those gaps
(17:55):
ultimately are symptomaticof that culture of complacency.
We talked about.
Well, I'm glad you circled back to that,because I wanted to kind of ask you
a little bitmore about a good safety culture and,
you know,you kind of hear it from everywhere
when people talk about that topic,that it starts with the top down.
And that's very true and in a lot of ways.
(18:15):
So I wondered if you could expanda little bit about what role leadership
and the overall company culture play
in kind of mitigatingthese types of hazards
and how leaders can really ensurethat safety
isn't just a policy or a set of policies,
but it's definitely a priority.
(18:37):
Yeah. Great question.
And leadership engagement and support
are absolutely vitalto effectively controlling any hazard.
If you think about it, they setthe expectations are set by them, training
is required by them, and accountabilityenforcement is held by them.
And it's one of the first thingsthey can do.
(18:58):
One of the most important thingsthey can do
is to walk the walk and lead by example.
When you're out on the productionfloor, doesn't matter
if you're the president or CEO,you have your safety glasses on.
If you don't have your safety glasses onand one of your
your team members says something to you,you thank them
and you go get a pair of safety glassesand you put it on and you reinforce that
(19:22):
that culture where everyone is, is,is willing to
and committed to the safety of themselvesas well as their coworkers,
even if it's the boss, the head boss.
So ultimately, building that safetyculture, it absolutely starts
with leadership.
Not that they have to haveall the answers up front.
(19:42):
Not that, like I said earlier,there's no magic lever.
They can pull.
It takes a committed effortsometimes over the course
of years, to get culturesreally turned around
and really seeing the full ramificationsout outflow
of getting everybody on boardwith that safety, that safety life.
Yeah.
You know, we hear,
a lot of different ways that businessestry to incentivize safety as well.
(20:08):
You know, and looking at that as a toolthat may reach some employees
that simply just talking about itor training on it or even walking
the walk as a leader,sometimes that extra an incentive,
whatever, whether it'sfinancial or recognition or whatever
that may look like, can really,you know, make a difference
(20:28):
in stuff that people justtake for granted every day.
Yeah, yeah.
One of the most powerful messages,I think, that you can,
you can use in getting your, your,
your managementand your frontline employees on board
is to get the message through to themthat it's not about them,
that there's somebody out therethat needs them, that relies on them,
(20:50):
that loves them,and they need them to come home,
and they need them to come homewith complete bodies and full capacity.
And, that it's that it's not always about you.
It's about them as well.
So look after yourselfbecause you're needed.
That's a great reminder to him.
And I appreciate you sharing that.
I know we've also talked about thatquite a bit as well on the podcast.
(21:11):
And, you know, that kind of leads meto another question I have is
if you have any examples of industriesor businesses
that have actually moved the needlein decreasing the occurrence of slips,
trips and falls,
and I know that can be donein a variety of ways,
but I'd love itif you could share some examples
(21:32):
with us of thingsthat you've seen that actually work.
Yeah.
So at the industry level,the it tends to be
those folks are who are more heavilyregulated.
So your health care,your large commercial contractors,
those are the folks that tendto have their ducks in a row.
They tend to have the the resources to buy
the latest equipmentand be really well set in that regard.
(21:55):
At the organizational level,we find a subset of employers
that are there that are proactivelyrealizing and internalizing
and have built a culture on the factthat safety pays and we see them.
Yeah, it's across
a broad spectrum of industries.
While it's not a huge group,
they are across the broadspectrum of industries.
And then we seewe finally see those that see the light,
(22:19):
but only after having experienceda large loss.
So in these industries and the typesof companies or businesses that you just
mentioned that are actually that
we see being successfulin making a difference
in regard to slips, trips and falls.
Can you maybe talk a little bitabout how they've done that?
(22:43):
So I know early on in the conversation youmentioned things like floor treatments.
We talked about situational awareness,but also engineering,
you know, around hazards andtrying to make sure those things are gone.
Are there some things that you seepretty consistently that have helped
a lot of our policyholdersin reducing those claims?
(23:06):
Yeah.
So as I in preparation for today's
conversation, I was searchingmy memory banks about policyholders
who have had success storiesand a couple of them that come to mind.
To answer your question,I think of a trucking operation,
pretty large operationback in the 2018, 2020 timeframe.
They had a series of slips
(23:28):
and trips or slips on ice,and they were pretty, pretty significant.
When you looked at the
the claim dollars, and they ended upworking with one of our consultants
and developed an action planwhich involved hazard awareness training
and providingand requiring the use of ice cleats.
And since that time,they've had a wonderful turnaround. And,
(23:52):
they have not had any slips on icesince then.
So we consider that, you know, a successstory, I think, of a roofing contractor
that was a medium sizedcommercial roofing contractor.
These folks,
I knew them back when I was a consultant,and they have just always been top notch.
They've always been proactive,and they really focused early on
(24:13):
on developing their safety policies andmaking sure that they were up to snuff,
making sure that they trainand that they keep the training fresh
and they're constantly retraining.
It's just a part of the of the process.
And they really, reallyhold their supervisors,
their foremen, accountablefor enforcing those safety policies.
(24:34):
Those folks actuallylast year were awarded a safety grant
for a piece of equipment.
I want to say
it was a scissor lift, that, of course,scissor lifts, keeping folks up ladders
that directlyaddresses that loose ball from heights.
And then finally, I think ofI think of a large
it was a it's a religious organizationthat we insure.
(24:55):
And for yearsthey battled same level events.
So slips and trips on the samelevels, stairways and that sort of thing.
They started working withone of our consultants a few years back
and really focused in on general hazardawareness
via training, posters, safety handouts,
(25:16):
inclement weather announcements,you know, reminders.
We're going to have snow,we're going to have ice.
Let's watch, you know, where we're puttingour feet and walk slowly and so on.
And quite a few hazard inspections.
And so far the strategy'sbeen very successful for them.
We've seen a significant drop in the volume of claims over the last three years. So
(25:38):
from thosethree examples, what I pull from that.
Well, the big one for meis that each of them sought help
in this, this particular case,it was help from our safety
and risk services department.
And they worked with their consultantsand they tailored a custom plan to suit
their needs that the consultantand the policyholder felt
(26:00):
would would best servethe needs of the situation at hand.
And they both they committed themselvesto this action plan.
And sometimes it took a yearto see the full ramifications.
But it's it's that commitmentto changing things.
And the magic equation for you
is going to be slightly differentthan everybody else.
(26:22):
Well, I think those are great examples
and just ways to startframing up the conversation.
If you don't already have a plan in placeor a policy or policies in place
in your business that address these typesof these types of incidents.
So anything that could be considereda slip, trip or fall.
And it is interesting to think abouthow we really all definitely encounter
(26:48):
those, those same level surface thingson a daily basis, no matter what you do.
And so it's importantto take a look at it.
As we wrap up today,we like to leave our listeners
with something that they can take awayand really start working towards
making a difference,
you know, just from this conversation,at least some ideas and, and,
and things like that,that they can begin working through.
(27:09):
So I was wonderingif you could share with us.
I know we talked about a lot,but you're the top two things
that you think an employer can do to help
employeesreduce these types of incidents and make,
you know, this year,a turning point for safety.
Okay.
All right.
Well, my my top two lists,they tend to morph into 2 or 3.
(27:32):
So we'll see how it goes.
But through the lens of slipstrips and falls,
once you've committed yourselfto fostering that safety culture,
then I would encourage folksto take a two pronged approach.
If you're struggling with those same levelevents,
focus your efforts on housekeeping,preventative maintenance,
and enhancing that situational awareness.
(27:55):
If you find yourself dealing with fallsfrom heights,
then you have to draw this linein the sand
and commit yourselfto developing those safe expectations,
training on those expectations,enforcing those expectations.
And why do I saydraw a line in the sand here?
Because falls from heights.
They change lives.
They take livesand they absolutely crush profitability.
(28:18):
Oh, I told you I'd be 3 or 4.
Don't forget your instant investigations.
Even for those same level events,which oftentimes get overlooked
when it comes to instant investigation,near-miss investigations,
they're absolutely vital for itbecause otherwise
you're not going to knowwhat your root causes are.
And if you don't knowwhat your root causes are,
you don't know what the changes
to make to minimizethe likelihood of future occurrences.
(28:42):
And finally, I'd like to remind everyone
that EMS, Safety and Risk Servicescan provide expert consultation
on slips, trips and falls,or any other hazards
that you may find yourselfstruggling with.
Well, thank you Tim.
And yes,your top four is definitely allowed.
We're not going to cut any of that out.
It's all good stuff.
So so I appreciate that.
(29:03):
We appreciate you.
And I know our listeners are goingto benefit from this conversation
and you justsharing your insights with us.
That was my pleasure.
And I'd like to thank our listenersfor tuning in.
We'll see you nexttime on the WorkSafe podcast.
(29:28):
Thank you for listening to the WorkSafepodcast.
Brought to you by MEM.
If you like this episode,be sure to subscribe
on your favorite podcast platformand leave us a review!
We love to connect with our listeners.
If you have comments, questions,or suggestions for topics, please
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(29:53):
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