On Finding Awe and Being a Human in the Cosmos with Sasha Sagan

The COVID-19 pandemic forced many of us individually and as a global cohort to reassess how and why we live the ways that we do and what really matters to us. Through the pandemic, we may have also felt moments of awe at the natural world and questioned our place in it.

In moments like these, we’re afforded glimpses into how we choose to operate in the world and understand our place in relation to everything else. Rituals play a key role in helping us make sense of the world around us, yet we often forget that they’re even there. Today’s guest, Sasha Sagan, picks up on this thread through her writing and podcast work.

Daughter of “Cosmos” co-writer Ann Druyan and astronomer Carl Sagan, Sasha talks with host Adam Gamwell about the power of ritual for making meaning across life, death, nature, and more. She also shares how she learned to ask questions, the value of finding awe in the most mundane of rituals, and how turning our attention anew to the natural world can help us add wonder back into our lives.

Show Highlights:

• [06:53] What inspired Sasha to create her podcast “Strange Customs”
• [13:04] How Sasha’s parents taught her to love and ask questions
• [21:30] How parents may inadvertently teach their children to stop asking questions
• [29:33] Our beliefs and customs around language and communication
• [37:56] How Sasha thinks about different media as different methods for storytelling
• [47:56] How we dress up scientific phenomena in beliefs and customs
• [59:19] Why people are getting more creative with how they tackle life-defining moments
• [01:00:45] How we can demonstrate anthropology’s value
• [01:03:37] How we can add awe back into our lives

Links and Resources:

• Strange Customs with Sasha Sagan
• For Small Creatures Such as We: Rituals for Finding Meaning in Our Unlikely World by Sasha Sagan (Anthrocurious' Bookstore Affiliate Link - purchasing here supports the show!)
• Check out Sasha Sagan’s website
• Connect with Sasha Sagan via Twitter or Instagram
• Connect with Adam Gamwell via email, LinkedIn, or Twitter
• Subscribe to the This Anthro Life newsletter

Episode Transcript

(00:02):
Hello, and welcome to This anthroLife, a podcast about the little things
we do as people that shape thecourse of humanity. I'm your host,
Adam Gamwell. I got a questionfor you. When you were a kid,
what was your favorite activity to dooutside involving nature? Did you like
to crunch leaves after collecting them ina big pile during the fall. Or
were you a summer baby that lovedwatching fireflies after a warm sunset. Maybe

(00:24):
you even caught a few in ajar or two, you know. I
remember marveling at the stars as akid from the Burbs. I thought it
was so cool that you could seeOrion's belt and the Big Dipper and recognize
the different patterns and constellations. Andas I would come to find out,
the stars were so far away,nature was huge. It's funny that scientific
thinking only becomes more pervasive in oureveryday lives as we get older. Think

(00:48):
about this. Many of us brushour teeth every day. In fact,
it's so wrote that we don't giveit much thought. But behind this little
ritual is knowledge about tooth enamel andbiology, diet genetics, and physiology.
And I'm sure some marketing. Imean, I want freshmanty breath and white
teeth too. There's just so muchgoing on behind this little simple ritual,
and I literally never think about it. Now, if we move up on

(01:12):
scale, most of us notice andhave a sense of awe and wonder over
having a baby. We're more awareof the medical side of things, but
we also have baby showers and namingrituals and so so many other kinds of
customs, and if we take thingseven broader, the pandemic is forced many
of us, individually, as communitiesand as a global cohort to reassess how

(01:33):
we live the ways that we do, and why and what really matters to
us. We are reminded that natureisn't something that we can control, and
that our scientific knowledge, as greatas it is, does have limits.
Well more frightening and uncertain and shakenout of our everyday routines that often run
an autopilot. Through the pandemic,we may have also felt moments of awe
at the natural world and questions ourplace in it. In moments like these,

(01:56):
we are also afforded, even ifbriefly, glimpses of operating systems,
like how we choose to operate inthe world and understand our place and relation
to everything else. Rituals and customsare like programs in that operating system,
and they play such an important rolein our lives for helping us make meaning
more important moments or changes in tofeel in conversation with the rhythms of the
world around us. So isn't itkind of crazy then, that we often

(02:20):
forget that this operating system and ourknowledge of it are even there. So
I was absolutely delighted to come acrossa new podcast called Strange Customs that focuses
on these very human questions. Andnot only that, but the host of
this podcast is none other than SashaSagan. Now. Sasha has led a
life steeped in the exploration of what'sour place on this planet and well the

(02:40):
wider cosmos, as we'll talk aboutin the episode. She's also the daughter
of astronomer and astro physicist Carl Saganand producer Andruyen. Now. While most
of us know them from books likePale Blue Dot and TV shows like Cosmos
and movies like Contact, Sasha willshare how they as parents shaped her love
of deep and important questions around ourplace in the planet men. As you

(03:01):
can imagine the cosmos. She notonly knows how to ask a good question,
but also how to craft compelling narrativesin pursuit of answers, and already
an accomplished writer. In twenty nineteen, after becoming a mother, Sasha penned
the book for Small Creatures such asWe Rituals for Finding Meaning in Our Unlikely
World, in which she explores theprofound power of ritual for making meaning across

(03:23):
life and death, history and natureand more. The book is also a
wonderful blend of memoir, nonfiction,and human insights that serves as a palette
through which she paints the kind oflife that she would want to build for
her children. Her podcast, StrangeCustoms picks up on these threads through entertaining
and thought proving conversations with friends,writers, actors, poets, and scholars.

(03:44):
One of the cool things she doesis ask each guest on the podcast
what ritual they might reinvent for themselvesor their families. And as you'll see,
Sasha has an infectious energy that carriesthrough from her writing to podcast work.
In today's conversation, and this isno mistake. One of the major
themes of our conversation is how towrestle with our modernist tendencies to promote a
more disinterested attitude towards nature and naturalphenomenon, the sense of wonder and authus

(04:10):
so many of us felt as children, like watching a leaf fall or butterfly
emerge from a cocoon, or maybeeven thinking about brushing your teeth is often
socialized out of us. Once weknow how some kind of natural phenomenon works,
it somehow feels less special or allinducing to us. We forget the
magic of everyday life until something comesalong that disrupts that flow. Now,

(04:30):
you, dear listener of this anthorlife, maybe thinking not me, mister,
and I hear you not to worry, as we're going to discuss this
is a general tendency. It's notsomething that everybody does all the time,
but I do think it's pervasive enoughthat you probably recognize this too. Hey,
that's one of the reasons we needpodcasts like this, right, So
Sasha helps us get to the heartof this challenge, and I cannot wait
to share with you. So let'sdive on and right out for a quick
word from this episode. Sponsor,Sasha's so exciting to have you on the

(05:02):
podcast, and a huge admirer ofyour work, and just it's really exciting
to see, you know, sucha voice out there in terms of helping
us correct science and secularism and inspirituality and ways of adding wonder and awe
back to our lives. When evidencecan still be a part of the equation,
which I think is really cool.So thank you so much for joining
me on the show today. Oh, I'm delighted to be talking to you,
Adam. Thank you so much.Yeah, I think it's it's true

(05:25):
evidence. It can be part ofthe equation. It can be central to
the equation. And I think that, you know, that's something that we
have, this idea that if something'sprovable, that somehow lessons the magic of
it. And I guess we cansort of always get into the semantics of
what makes something magical, but Ijust think there's so much astonishing, thrilling

(05:48):
beauty that is totally evidence based,and it's just a matter of framing it
that way often, And actually thatquestion or the idea of framing it's actually
so important too as we find ourselvesin the early getting to sort of middle
part of the twenty first century nowtoo and you know, reflecting on what
is our place as humans as wefind ourselves spitting through the cosmos as it

(06:10):
were. And you know, oneof the projects that you've been worked on
recently that I'm excited to talk toyou about is your podcast Strange Custom.
And when I first saw the showand came across that, I was excited
because it's like, this is avery anthropological look at you know, what's
happening, Why why do we dothe weird things that we do? And
then thinking about the different ways thatyou come at and so I'd love to
talk a bit about that too,just in terms of like what inspired you

(06:30):
to make this show, and youknow, how do you pick your guests
in your topics? And we haveepisode of the language with episodes on identity,
so all these really great and importantand salient pieces. And then something
that you mentioned before we kicked offhere was like an episode in fashion would
be cool on day, which Iagree. The costumes that we were always
interesting. Yeah, Well, Ilove podcasts. I love audiobooks like I
really since childhood have loved that mediumof listening to someone tell you a story.

(06:54):
I think because my parents read tome a lot when I was little
on maybe just there's something almost biologicalabout you know, I'm not visual.
My ears work better than my eyesmaybe, And I mean really the real
inspiration, like going as far backas you can to this is like this
idea. I mean, my parentsraised me very much with this idea that

(07:16):
the more we understand about our placein the universe and how small we are,
and the possibility that maybe maybe maybesomewhere out there there might be some
other life form, maybe even intelligentlife, and the less that we think
of ourselves as the end all beall, the only way there what we

(07:36):
do seems kind of arbitrary and kindof funny, And we do talk about
quite big topics on strange customs,but we try to do it pretty lightheartedly
and with a sort of sense ofhumor about ourselves. And like each episode
starts pretty tongue in cheek with theidea of imagining some extraterrestrial studying our weird
behavior what would they make of us? But my parents, really, my

(08:00):
dad especially, really put these questionsto me in childhood of how would you
explain this strange thing we're doing orwhy do we do this this way?
And I think there's something parallel aboutbeing secular that kind of puts you on
the outside often in a culture.And I'm not just secular, but I'm
a secular Jew. So I'm notjust that I'm not a believer, but
I'm also not in the majority culturein this country. And so there's something

(08:26):
about that position that things that arevery common, very normal to maybe most
of the other people you know,don't seem so normal. They seem like
they require some explanation. And soI've wanted to do this podcast for a
couple of years and I'm so excitedto finally be doing it. And really,
in terms of each episode, firstI find a guest, some interesting

(08:48):
person who is a writer or anartist or an actor or you know,
any number of things like that,and ask them like, what do you
want to talk about that's in thegenre, What do you feel like is
weird? What do you think aboutin your own life? And ask yourself
what is this about? And fromthere we kind of build an episode that's
great too. I mean for anumber of reasons in terms of how do

(09:09):
we get people's passions to come outin story? Right, nothing is one
of the most powerful ways that wecan We can do that. You know
that we are the storytelling animal,you know, is an important part of
who we are. And then thebest part about that too is as you're
saying there, is that we doso many strange and wonderful things as this
species. And then I think alsojust like the power, I mean,
what I also enjoy about it toois is when you get to hear somebody

(09:31):
else's story and as they're thinking throughsomething that's like, I mean, it's
weird. Is to say, it'slike, oh, I use language,
I have an identity, right,I have parents that I've I've related to
in the past, and so it'slike these interesting questions of you know,
how do we connect with others,and so there's this kind of empathetic building
that can that can happen. That'san important part of thing. One of
the one of the things I rememberfrom one of the episodes first I listened
to is with Jedediah Jenkins, youknow, and the idea of taking a

(09:54):
road trips with your family was areally interesting idea. You know that this
notion of taking your mom on ona road trip late and as like I'd
never thought about doing that, I'mactually taking a road trip myself by myself,
you know, in actually in afew weeks and I was like,
I should actually get my mom tocouple of you know, that's so great,
right. It's like in most ofthe episodes we're talking about what is
a ritual that you would want tocreate around something? And Jededi Jenkins,

(10:18):
who's close friend of mine and awriter, really interesting person and really an
adventurous spirit, you know, worldtraveler. A lot of his writing is
about his travels, talked about hownow what he's working on is going on
these trips individually with each of hisparents and sort of either to a place
that you know, they grew upor to a place they always wanted to

(10:41):
go. It's almost like he's doinga little bit of anthropology and a very
small sample, you know, asstudying one very specific group, his two
parents, and trying to understand themmore deeply. And I think that,
you know, there's something really amazingabout that, you know, the way
we examine ourselves individually, the waywe examine the people who are closest to

(11:05):
us, most influential to us,and then try to take a step back
and examine our whole society or ourwhole species. There's some through line there
that I think it's something really valuableto do on all those levels. Yeah,
I agree to it. It makesme think about this broader idea.
You mentioned this a little bit before, about the kind of recognizing your own

(11:28):
positionality, you know, when itcomes to being a secular Jew in the
US, and and how that canmake what is quote unquote normal to other
people losts we might say, right, these white Anglish acts and Protestants you
know, stand out is all themore on one level, performative like I'm
trying to do something, you know, at the same time also like it
can be deeply personal and meaning meaningfulto folks, and you know, be

(11:50):
steeped in belief or steeped in superstition. It could be steeped into something that
I want to do. Right,But how you see that kind of from
your own, your own position.So I'd love to think about this too
in terms of you know, youryour own story obviously, you know you
have a very famous upbringing, andhow that kind of shaped how do we
learn to ask what is my positionplace? What is our place in this
pale blue dot? We might say, Yeah, I mean I think that

(12:11):
you know, in every case.It's like whatever you grow up with,
to some extent feels normal to you, you know what I mean. And
so whatever your family culture is,whatever your life is like when you're small,
sort of feels like it's how thingsare. You imagine, it's how
things are for most people. Andthen slowly as you start to step back

(12:33):
and see the world. I mean, it's very parallel to what we're doing
as we sort of come of ageas a species, where we sort of
see ourselves as the center of theuniverse, as children do, and then
you grow up a little bit andsort of see see a wider view of
things. And I mean, Iwas so lucky my upbringing. My dad

(12:54):
was the astronomer Carl Sagan, andmy mom is the writer producer Andreane.
And they raised me with so muchwonder and joy and such encouragement about asking
questions and such enthusiasm about learning,and you know, having really profound conversations
at the dinner table. And theywere both my mom still is. My

(13:18):
father was so gifted at explaining verycomplicated things to non experts. That is
evident in their work, their books, you know, Cosmos, television series.
Everything they did was so much aboutmaking things that can be hard to
understand accessible to more people in avery welcoming way. And it's that skill

(13:41):
set is really good for parents,and so I was really really benefited from
that growing up. And it's sortof, you know, one of those
things where as you get older,are the things that you were really lucky
to have become more clear because yourealize that not everyone got the same privilege.

(14:03):
And I feel like as I gointo the world, I'm a mom
now I have two little kids,I'm just trying to carry on that legacy
of making the world nature as revealedby science as thrilling and the source of
as much pleasure, not just information, but pleasure and connection and joy.

(14:28):
I think it's really powerful. AndI think we just have this fallacy often
that you know, facts are coldand hard and we don't like them,
and they don't feel good and theyare you know, generally unpleasant, and
things would be better if it wasjust you know, unicorns. Yeah,

(14:52):
I mean that would be cool too, Like people we get really excited about
unicorns, but there's like some reallycool animals that exists, and I just
feel like maybe there should be alittle bit more focus on how magical an
octopus is I don't know. Imean, I'm kind of drinking around,
But like, once we understand howsomething works, why something is the way
it is, we have this tendencyto lose the awe. And I think

(15:18):
there is a way to have both. And I think that there's a parallel
to when we're talking about all ouridiosyncratic behaviors as human beings, or as
Americans or as people in the twentyfirst century or whatever it is. I
think there's a way to say,like, wow, this is a really
peculiar, really kind of arbitrary thingwe do, maybe something that's even totally

(15:41):
vestigial, part of something that wedon't even think is true anymore, or
you know, is just a holdoverfrom like a whole bunch of beliefs that
we're ready to shake off and stillfind some poetry in it and not hold
on to the parts that don't standup to scrutiny. Let those fall away.

(16:03):
But maybe there are some little elementsof it that we can find real
beauty and purpose and value in.And if not, even if we're ready
to let go of some of theseold customs, still see them as a
kind of little poem about who weare or who we were and what we're
all about. You know. Istill think that there's something really revealing about

(16:27):
so much of what we do,and I think that our behaviors are elements
of us that are so specific tothis time and place in human history.
I still really relish understanding them andstill get a lot of pleasure out of
them, even when some of themysteries maybe falls away. It's kind of

(16:48):
like we place so much value onthe mystery itself, right, so when
we understand it, it's like,Okay, well the how I don't care
now, right, And it's likeour entire obsession with true crime. Right,
there's a macab event, but it'sreally about how it happened and who
did it, you know, Andthat's interesting, Yes, I mean that's
like, actually, that would bea really good episode of Strange Customs to
do about true crime. But yes, now, the mystery. We really

(17:10):
do almost fetishize this idea of amystery, and once we understand something,
we lose interest in it. Imean, the example that I always give
and that my whole life, nomatter what, this will never cease to
amaze me. There is a secretcode in your blood that connects you to
your ancestors, to everyone who everlived. It has information about you.

(17:32):
It can solve mysteries people who wereadopted, people who left their village somewhere
and went somewhere else, how pharaohswere related to one another, all of
these things that seemed lost to timeuntil very recently. There is a key
that can unlock countless mysteries inside yourbody. But by the time we learn

(17:56):
about DNA in like sixth grade anddo like a worksheet about alleles, we're
completely over it, you know whatI mean. And I just feel like
there's so many things like that whereif we presented them with this sense of
awe and astonishment that people felt whenit was first discovered or first understood,

(18:17):
and we could carry that forward,I just think it would be better.
I agree. It's funny, likeso, when I was in an undergraduate
I studied both religious studies and anthropology. Didn't know what direction I would go
in, and I always found thistension that I leaned towards the anthropologists,
that the more scientific, humanistic,scientific side, But I always found religious

(18:37):
texts and writing more alive and likethey actually were not afraid to be awe
inspired, especially if you're reading somethinglike Saint Augustine, or you know the
founders of different religions, or youknow texts from attributed to the Buddha.
But there's always this kind of backand forth. We're anthropologists of old and
still I think a little too muchtoday too tend to explain away the feeling
of awe right, And it's kindof like if you have a sense of

(18:59):
wonder, it's because you don't understandit. And if you understand it,
they have like if facts are kindof cold and hard, then like scientific
observation is also cold and hard,right, understanding is also So I think
that's a really interesting moment. Ithink we have a unique opportunity today,
even the way you're describing the again, how do we bring that all back?
How do we provide space for it? Because it's always there, right,
and we on one level attributed tochildren and then for some reason adults

(19:21):
are not supposed to feel that way. And then secondarily, the more quote
unquote no, the less all onefeels. And I think this is a
really interesting it's I mean, Iwant to sound overly dramatic. It's preticious
that like our culture, we tendto push that we shouldn't feel that way.
Oh, I don't think that's overdramatic. I think that's totally accurate.
And I think it's cool to beblase, you know what I mean,
ash Jack cool, blase, Yeah, exactly. Like it's just this
idea that somehow embarrassing to be HolyMolly, these very everyday things. And

(19:48):
I do think that children aren't likethat. I mean, when my daughter
was really little two and three,every time she saw the moon, she
would freak out and be like moonand we would be like, yeah,
the moon, moon spotter. That'swhat we'd call her moon spotter. And
it was like a celebration every timewe saw the moon. And like,
it's really easy to be like,yeah, the moon, Okay, let's

(20:11):
move it along, you know whatyou mean, it's bathtime. It's really
easy to just not be that enthusiasticabout the moon once you are in your
third decade of seeing the moon,you know. But I just think that
children get the message from adults thatit's not as exciting as it could be.

(20:33):
But really, the adults should begetting the message from the children this
is something to celebrate. This ismajestic and beautiful and just in and of
itself profound. And here we havethis natural satellite that orbits are planet and
changes over the course of the month. And imagine what it was like when

(20:53):
we had no electricity and even maybebefore we had domesticated fire, where if
the moon was not out, itwas complete darkness, and if the moon
was out you could see and justthink, you know, all these things,
all these little tributaries you can godown with a little kid or with
yourself as an adult or other adultsto really find this beauty. You know,

(21:15):
sometimes they feel like these kinds ofcelebrations, not in a formal sense,
but this kind of enthusiasm, weend up going down a road that's
a little bit more hippie crunchy.Maybe some questionable relationships with crystals and stuff
like that, and you know,stuff like that becomes unscientific. But I
think just the purely scientific elements ofit, like could we find a way

(21:38):
to just have that kind of wonderabout these things? And I think it's
just the same way that when childrengo through that phase where they say why
constantly, adults get self conscious ifthey don't know the answer, it brings
up their own questions sometimes when it'sa really deep, profound question and maybe

(22:00):
they're not sure how they feel,what happens when you die, what's God?
You know, all these things wherethey have to like wrestle with these
really profound questions, and maybe they'renot totally settled on how they feel,
or if it's sometimes questions if theyjust don't know the answer too, and
it's embarrassing and they feel like theycan't say, I don't know. We
have all these insecurities about what weknow and don't know, and kids sort

(22:22):
of get the message sometimes to stopasking those questions. But if there was
a way to keep that going andalso normalize that nobody knows everything and then
asking a really hard question is agood thing, I think we would be
better off right on. I meanin that I love this. I do
too, and I remember you talkabout this in your book. Also for
small creatures such as we is theencouragement you got from your family to ask

(22:45):
those hard questions and you kind ofgot a gold star when you were like,
that's a really hard question we don'tknow the answer to that. You
know, in imagining that for morefamilies, I think it is a really
powerful idea. I mean, thisdoesn't sound as sexy perhaps, but the
idea I think that there actually isa strange custom we have of needing to
know things in a way like ifyou don't know, you're wrong or stupid
or something. And so I wonderabout that absolutely, and I think that
you know, I talked about inmy book about looking things up and when

(23:08):
I was a little kid, becauseI'm forty, it was not on the
Internet. It was in the EncyclopediaBritannica. But this idea that that was
a ritual to look something up ina reference book was like seeking out an
answer in a holy text. Andit wasn't perfect, and it was a
very specific amount of information from toldfrom their perspective of a very specific group

(23:30):
of people at one time and place, but it was what we had available
and there was something about it thatwas really beautiful and special. But yeah,
I think you're right. I wasjust talking about this with someone today,
This idea of our fear of admittingwe don't know or admitting that we
were wrong in an interpersonal way butalso in a public way. It's really

(23:52):
hard for us, but it shouldbe celebrated. Science moves forward and human
beings move forward to say, oh, I really thought this thing. It
turns out it's not true. Ihave more data now and I can change
my perspective. I think that's heroic. He agree too, And I would
love to find more ways to kindof encourage that. It's funny because I'm
thinking about this in terms of,you know, folks that are applying for

(24:15):
a job, right, and ajob interview is like a war path of
like saying I know the answer,I can do this, and like you
know, you practiced hawn't judo anyquestion that you could ask. This is
interesting idea of these ritual reform likethe job interview, where you can't say
I don't know, I've heard nowlike there's more discussion of it's okay to
be like I'm the answer to that. But you know, thinking through these
these different customs that we have,right that we feel like we have to

(24:37):
demonstrate certain kinds of knowledge and ifyou don't then it's a no no.
But then it's interesting, yeah,like why why couldn't we kind of adding
this this idea of unknowing as partof it. I mean, we wasn't
an entire I forgot now that thegreat cloud of unknowing was a mystic tradition
I think out of ancient Judaism.Don't quote me on that. Yes,
well, I will say that's onething I do really connect to about Judius.
And even though theological elements and thereare other elements that I don't the

(25:00):
idea that asking questions and debate iscelebrated, and that there's this thing about
two rabbi's three opinions, that theidea that there is not a singular authority
and that it's debating deep ideas ispart of the tradition. I do really
like that. But yeah, Imean this thing about not knowing in a

(25:21):
job interview, like, but wouldn'tyou rather employ the person who will say
when they don't know the answer ratherthan make something up that's not better?
Yeah, totally right. It's againof like what is the we might say,
the unintended consequence of the customs thatwe have, whether we promote something
or not, then like, obviouslyit'll still have an effect, right,
It'll still alter the outcome of whatcomes what comes after that, So it
is an interesting question. Maybe it'spart of that is learning to ask,

(25:44):
Okay, what are the consequences ofthe way that I'm thinking that this should
go. And if we think aboutthat, I mean, it makes me
think also of self disclosure. I'ma burner. I go to burning man
and burning man type events. Andfor me, one of the things that
was most powerful about that as alsoa secular person was that it actually is
to me built on both community,which something that we need, that the
congregational aspect of being with others.And then there's a lot of playfulness in

(26:06):
awe and wondrous part of it,because it is large art sculptures on the
middle of either desert or beach,you know, and these these very weird
things, and people dressed up intheir actual costumes or Halloween costumes in opening
their true selves are putting out howyou'd read it. And so it's like,
it's all the things that I loveabout certain things again like Halloween,
and then about the idea of likethe congregational aspect of religious group. But

(26:26):
then to me comes in a veryweird you know, mad MAXI way.
But no, first of all,that's all social media totally now, and
I have to do an episode onthat too, good call, And yeah,
I mean the art element and Iwould put costumes, fashion in that
genre of art. I mean,that is so central to virtually every deeply
held belief system and iconography and allthese little symbols and ways we communicate and

(26:52):
signals we give each other through thatvisual art form is so so interesting,
and it really does. Is it'sso fascinating the way we manage to do
that, and how you can lookat these little elements of a costume that
are references to something and you justimmediately know, Okay, well that person
is dressed as tanker bell or whateverit is. I don't know. I

(27:15):
just I find that so interesting,all those non verbal, non written forms
of communication that we manage. Yeah, I agree to, And there's statistics
I've seen. I mean, Idon't again, I don't know how true
these are. But but just thisthis idea that the majority of actually how
we communicate is nonverbal, right,we use language, But obviously it's very
weird for a podcast to say this, right, because if you're just listening
to this, Okay, I don'tknow how you guys are signaling with your

(27:37):
hands, but just this this ideathat a lot of how we communicate,
right is think through dressed through bodylanguage, through the way that we I
mean, obviously intonation and inflection canmake a difference too, in addition to
the words we're saying the vocabulary.But then also this kind of notion,
right that there's so much more inother ways of communicating that I think is
also we're at this amazing time rightwhere we can hop on the internet and

(27:57):
then we can look at art,we can go to in our exhibition,
right, you know, we canhave the good fortune going to museum down
the road. I'm just curious too, because it's like there's been these shifting
conversations over the past few years withthe rise of things like the metaverse,
which I think is a BS termbecause it's already existed for the past twenty
years, they just didn't call itthat marketing, But just this notion too
of like what does connectivity mean andhow we can engage with one another in

(28:19):
digital spaces too. So I'm curiousabout this too, like how we might
think about what language can become andlike how can we learn to communicate as
our medium's changed too. So it'slike, I like the bigger theme we're
building around the idea of what beliefswe have, what customs we have and
how they can change over time.I love the idea you said to give
them like little poems, that they'rekind of a bit of who we were.
But then also as the mediums arechanging in radical ways in our lifetimes.

(28:40):
Obviously you know I'm in the sameage as you. But it's like,
of course, when our parents wouldtalk about, you know, well
we had a black and white TV, or didn't have a TV, or
your grandparents didn't have that either,and it's like the idea of like how
quickly our mediums have changed, youknow, what does that mean for us?
It's astonishing. I mean my dadhad me kind of late in life,
and so he was born in nineteenthirty four. When he said we
didn't have a television, we hada radio, I was, how did

(29:03):
you live? And it's funny nowdoing a podcast which is basically radio,
but I was just like, thatsounds terrible. And he died in nineteen
ninety six, and I think sooften about I've written about this as well.
If I could show him an iPhone, you know what I mean,
and just and talking about communication andshort of course, I don't need to

(29:23):
enumerate all the shortcomings of our momentin terms of technology and social media and
all the pitfalls and dangerous, butthe idea that you can talk to anyone
no matter what language they speak,you can communicate with them. I mean,
that is unbelievable to me. Andagain this is another kind of version

(29:47):
of like holding onto this awe wherelike I mean, even right now,
so for you listening, Adam andI can see each other while we're talking,
and a video call when I wasa little, when you were a
little that was really okay, Iget it. This takes place in the
future, so futuristic, so advanced, and now we do it all the
time, to the point where it'sis another zoom. It's kind of a

(30:08):
drag and it's magic. I mean, it really is astonishing. Of course,
when we were all stuck inside andzoom was the only way, it
was got old fast. But Igotta say, there were a lot of
conversations, and there are a lotof conversations that I have with people in
other places around the world or evenother cities in the United States that I

(30:30):
wouldn't get to have. And Ilearned from those conversations and I understand human
beings more deeply. The more ofthose conversations I can have and there is
something so profoundly beautiful about that,And there is something different about seeing someone's
face while you're talking to them thantying them on the phone. It's interesting

(30:52):
too because it's like, I don'tknow if it's the devil the angels advocate.
I mean the notion here too thatbecause of the pandemic really made us
get on him into your Yeah,it was like, both this this great
thing in the magic that we cando that, and then also obviously there
was the fatigue angle. But what'sreally interesting too is like another I think
really positive thing happened that we don'talways recognize, and that's we also then

(31:12):
learned to articulate why a phone callis helpful, Why when I don't have
to look at somebody's face or lookat myself basically on a little screen.
And like, I think that's interestingtoo because we also were like, say
what else matters? Like why isactually a phone call restorative? I can
just put this on a walk.That's really interesting also that we get both
we can both have the video magicand you can say, wait, this
is actually why I prefer to talkat this point, and I can go

(31:34):
do something else. You know,it's really powerful too. And this is
I think buzzing in my head asas we're saying this, you know,
because it's in the same vein oftrying to think about while we see a
lot of conversations about fatigue. Ithink you're right that there are such a
magic that we're able to do it, and then to have video chats,
to be able to comnique with anybodyto I mean, I can like talk
into my iPhone in English and haveit spit out Russian. It's amazing,

(31:55):
I mean, the whole thing.Not to mention, I have a question
what is the popular of the capitalof Estonia? And it's just a zero
amount of time has to pass beforeI can get the answer. That is
so different than everything that happened untilfive minutes ago. Yes, right,
the clock of human history, rightthat the last point zero zero three seconds.

(32:17):
If we can do that, yes, yes, exactly, but totally.
I mean asking questions at home wasan important and encouraged piece of being,
and so I'm just curious also howyour work you're writing, you know,
use a lot of memoir, useexpert interviews, you know, use
kind of back and forth kind ofengaging fun conversations in your podcast work,
Like how do you think through thesemediums as ways of telling stories is something

(32:38):
that I'm always fascinated about too.And disclaimer or transparency comes from my own
vulnerability as an anthropologist that like typicallyagain, I think we write very dryly,
you know, I think it's notvery accessible, And like you,
I'm actually do better listening. I'mI'm quite a slow reader, and so
I started podcasting as both a formof therapy but then also as a form
of I can then catch up becauseI can't read fast enough. I mean,

(33:00):
I listened to audiobooks on one pointfive depending on the narrator, and
I can get it, and Ican listen to them fold laundry at the
same time, and I read abook and I'm just a very slow reader
too totally. I mean writing.I do love writing because I love to
be able to move things around,not even just in a book, but

(33:21):
in an essay that's, you know, a few pages long. What really
helps me the most in writing wasthe idea of once I could really get
comfortable with the idea that the firstjob is to just get out every idea
or piece of information or little anecdotethat is related to this on the paper,
and don't worry if it makes sense, and don't worry if it's in

(33:44):
the right order, and don't worryif you've said the same thing three times.
Just get it all out and thenyou can organize it. A friend
of mine, he's an author andhe's writing a book, and he's like,
oh, well, I've written nineteentwenty two chapters in my next book,
and I'm like, you write yourafters in order? What a psychopathic
It's like, ah, I cannotimagine being like chapter one anyways, It's

(34:09):
just not how my brain works.He's brilliant, no shade. But I
was like, well, that soundshorrible. But I will say every time
one of my friends it says like, oh, how was like going with
the podcast? Oh my god?Talking is so much easier than writing for
me, Like, I really reallydo fine and listen. It's not perfect,
and I stammer, and I luckilyhave a wonderful producer who makes me

(34:32):
sound a little bit more linear.But it's not perfect. But it's also
I don't know, it just comesmore naturally. And I just love being
able to be the person who asksquestions. I love interviewing people, and
many years ago I worked in televisiona little bit and would write questions for
interview shows. I didn't host them, and someone else asked the questions,

(34:57):
but I loved that job. Andsometimes I try to put forth my ideas
or opinions about answers to questions likeI'm doing right now with you. But
I do feel like asking questions isso much more fun. I mean,
not no, this is really fun, don't get me wrong, But I
mean that there's something about being like, I'm going to come away from a

(35:21):
conversation with new information. And thisis very conversational, so I am getting
a lot of new information from you. But there's something about that being like
I'm going to learn something versus I'mgoing to tell someone something, you know
what I mean. And I thinkit's really really interesting that podcasts are so
popular and people love them so much, and that that form of media is

(35:45):
growing when a lot of other formsaren't. I think there's something really interesting
about that. That part of itis people have along commute or something.
You can't watch a movie while you'redriving car. But part of it is
I think that kind of like whatyou were saying about what's good about the
phone pacing around your house, tinkeringwith things. It's like when you're working

(36:07):
on something and you have to takea break to play wordle or whatever,
you know what I mean, Becauseit's like your brain can't just totally be
completely focused on one thing for verylong, and you need something else in
there. And I think that learningor listening or understanding or getting something out
of listening while you use your eyesto do something else is I don't know.

(36:30):
I think there's something really really valuableabout that. We're going to take
a quick break. Just wanted tolet you know that we're running ads to
support the show down. We'll beright back. I was pleasantly surprised when
I've I've done a lot of workand podcasting for a while now, and

(36:52):
I've had colleagues are going to NPRor other prs pull the radio stations and
exchanges. And one of the pieceof advice I was given a while ago
that really stood stuck with me wasthat podcasting is a distracted medium. People
are almost always doing something else whenthey're listening to you, like you're doing
your laundry, like and I justI've watched issues I podcast. I also

(37:13):
lost a commute because of a pandemic, and so I feel that time in
somewhere, you know. And soeven thinking about that of like how we
deliver, how we make sure thatwe are hopefully interesting and heard by by
audiences, and how do we connectwith them? And so it's like that
idea has stood with me, andthen I was surprised that I was.
I was talking with a journalist foranother project last year, and she also

(37:34):
said the same thing about writing fornewspapers to her is that, like the
audience is gonna be distract you haveto get to the point quick, put
it up top, you know,get your headline. I never thought about
news writing that way either, butthat also it makes sense. And I
was like, wait, are weever not distracted when we're consuming things?
Right? Well, maybe when you'rereading a novel in bad and everyone else
in the house is asleep. Sometimeswe have the TV on in the background.

(37:55):
But if we're watching a movie orart, you know what I mean,
Like let's say a film or likea really great series. Like my
husband and I we just watch.We don't do anything else. I'm like,
we pause if we have a comment, I mean, it's really annoying
for other people. If there wereother people watching this, I'm sure,

(38:15):
Well, I don't know. Ido feel like there are some mediums where
you really can't miss a shot,you know what I mean, if something
is really beautifully made and you knowthe director and the editor have put so
much thought into it. I reallydo respect those forms of art in a
way where I feel like you're gonnamiss something if you are kind of half

(38:38):
listening or half watching, but ittakes some energy to really focus and you
got to be in the right moodfor it. Totally. That's It's funny.
My wife does the same thing.She's like, pause, wait,
okay, hold on, okay,that character was actually related to this person,
right, and it's like yeah,yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah
yeah. Wait didn't he say thathe was the guy who went yeah no,
totally Like wait that was yes,yes, I have people watch with

(39:00):
those two ma we can watch together, be fine, but like other yes,
other people like stop pausing, Yes, totally sometimes you have you got
to break those down, you know, that's that's part of the work.
I think you know totally now,But that's I mean, very helpful to
think about too. In terms offor folks trying to get into creative spaces
or if they're if they're in them, or just thinking about does this work

(39:21):
or does it not work for me? Because it's one of those like I
always would I always want to bea writer. I know a lot of
people that also want to be writers. I'm guess that's a club of want
to be writers, right, youknow? But spoken word always worked better,
And so a bit of it islike how do we not fight the
tide of what works for us,you know, and like understanding what that
can be I'm curious about for you, for you in that process. Yeah,
oh no, I mean I feellike that's such a great point about

(39:42):
like not fighting the tide of whatworks for us in this whole conversation around
rituals and traditions and customs, andwe're so often feel beholden to this should
of what our ancestors did, orI don't want my grandmother to be mad
at me, or well, thisis how you do this thing when you
get marre, when you have ababy, or at Christmas time, versus

(40:04):
the idea that all of these traditionsare constantly changing. No one is doing
things the way that their ancestors weredoing them a thousand years ago. All
of these things have to mutate inorder to survive and evolve. And if
we have this war within ourselves betweengoing through the motions because we think we

(40:28):
should and doing something and sometimes creatingsomething new that actually represents what we believe
and what we enjoy, you know, I think that the more we can
just let go of that feeling ofwhat it should be this way in most
cases it's a totally artificial idea ofwhat these regulations are that we're supposed to

(40:52):
be following. But yeah, interms of writing versus talking in my own
work, I don't know. There'ssomething about a book. I do really
enjoy writing essays, and my bookis a little bit like a series of
essays, I think, and sothat was better for me. I think
I would have a pretty tough timewriting a novel, but non fiction relatively

(41:15):
concise, I hope chapters about theseexperiences. Each chapter, you know,
is some element of the spark withinall these shared customs around the world,
whether it's birth and coming of ageand death, or solstices and equinoxes and
the lunar cycles, all these thingsthat we've built these customs and beliefs around

(41:39):
the world. You know, inall these disparate cultures that had no contact,
we found often the same moments inour lives and in our annual cycles
to mark. And it's astonishing.I mean, it amazes me how when
you pull back this first layer ofthe costumes and the set and the lines,

(42:08):
we are celebrating the same things andmarking the same moments. It's almost
unsettling. It's so astonishing, andI think, I don't know's it's really
beautiful to me. And then thisthe amazing thing is so many of these
events are scientific phenomena, astronomical orbiological events, and we dress them up

(42:30):
when all these different beliefs, withall these different deities and all these different
myths, but it's really just thereis something deep down beneath the surface innately
reel, no totally. And it'sinteresting because like, as I'm thinking through
the different the ritual pieces that youexplore in your book, and I mean,

(42:51):
there's a ton to stick with me, but like what's top of mind
right now is actually the you know, you talk about the lunar cycle and
often believe we have that like thatmestro cycle is related to the lunar cycle,
and that's how do we find thatevidence or that we can't. But
then at the same time you alsomentioned in that chapter this importance that like,
as we get evidence, it doesn'tmake something else less transcendent, right,
and understanding those connections was so soimportant. On the other side of
this, I think from the theboth social impact and social justice angle that

(43:15):
one of the big shitty things abouthumanity is that we've always put down menstruation,
right, is this this separation moment? And we see this again to
your point to cross culturally, butyou said this one thing that I just
loved, where is this idea oflike what if we celebrated a period every
month and something that you get tonot not to have the period, which
it's like that you get to dosomething or this you added it's additive versus
woven like that. Really it wasreally sad with me. It's like,

(43:36):
what an important question and what ifwe could That's like it's a moment like
why can't we change it? Wecan we could change that that story in
that narrative in customs around that.Yeah, and I think a Mecva and
Judas I'm like, I mean,depends on the sect you're in if it's
a thing that's a celebration or somethingthat's like loo, but by and large
it's not considered a thing to bereally psyched about. And I just feel

(43:59):
like it's so amazing. I mean, it's so amazing. This is a
whole other topic, but just howwe get more people is so crazy,
and when you learn about it,it's astonishing and you can't even believe it,
and you're like, that seems notcorrect, and then over time it

(44:19):
becomes very normal idea and it sometimesbut I do think when you have a
new baby, you get a littlebit back in that astonishment awe situation where
you're like, there is a newperson, or you know somebody who has
a new baby. You meet ababy, there's a new person in the
world. Is wild. I mean, it is wild. There are so

(44:42):
many things like that where we geta little glimpse into how strange and wonderful
and astonishing and beautiful existence is,and then somehow we put it out of
our mind when the next thing comesalong and we have to do our errands
and reply to our emails and wego back to the ordinary. But I

(45:07):
think even in the ordinary, there'sa way there must be. I believe
there is a way to keep someof that on wonder in just the very
regular parts of life. I thinkyou're you're absolutely right. I'd like to
share something with you that this isa personal thing. But my wife is
a microbiologist, hardcore scientist. WhenI met her and still now so to

(45:30):
this day. Her family will kindof laugh at her because she'll stop and
look at a mushroom relief, youknow, when walking. So she's the
kind of person that is able tojust find that moment of all and let's
enjoy it. To growth her,we like to do that same thing,
so we go to the beach.We just go stare crabs or look at
the sand and remember the best thingis like, it's always all around us.
And it's a bit about finding thatthat capacity to remembering, I think

(45:52):
is really what it is too.Kids are born with it, right,
and it's like not socializing it awayand then remembering that we can do it.
One of the ways that she helpedme do this is that when we're
looking to get married, we weretalking about the whole process wedding valuity.
You know what's the right ritual activityto do, and so we end up
using in our in our wedding valuesa quote from from your mother Andrew in
around being beneficiaries of chance, becauseas a secular person likes it's how do

(46:15):
we actually understand the importance of relationshipsthat we have and the ephemerality of them,
you know, And so it's thatpure chance can be so generous and
so kind, and that we knowwe may not see each other we're getting
after this, but that is thepower them to see each other. Now,
it's to me, it's like oneof my favorite quotes of all time
too, So thank you, thankyour mom for first second, I will
pass that along to her for sure. That's so beautiful. And you know,

(46:37):
I have to say, first ofall, thank you for telling me
that that's so beautiful and so moving. And I do really believe that we
have this idea that it's too painfulto imagine that there's nothing after this.
We're here, we are talking,walking, doing our things, and whatever
it is, this animating thing goesaway and it's gone forever, the idea

(46:58):
of everybody who the person it's excruciatingto think about how that is. It's
finite but I really do believe pushingthrough the discomfort and pain of that to
the other side where we realize thatit's because it's finite, that it is
magnificent that we are here right now. And if you love someone, you

(47:20):
are close to their family, youhave a best friend, you have these
deep connections, these relationships that youcan experience right now. I think the
idea that it's not permanent actually makesit more beautiful and makes those bonds deeper.
And I think that you know,we're so afraid of the pain of

(47:40):
really reckoning with the brevity of ourlives, but I think it's more beautiful
because it's not forever. Also,I think in terms of like the wedding
planning, I'm curious what your thoughtsare on this as an anthropologist, but
there's something about when a baby isborn, when you get married, and
when you have to plan a funeral, to raise a child together, planning

(48:02):
to throw a wedding, and planningto have a funeral. Those are these
moments where people who often don't otherwisehave to think about what they believe,
what they value, what they thinkis true, what they think is not
true, what they hold sacred.You can go years and years without thinking

(48:22):
about any of that stuff, andthen those three moments I think bring up
these conversations that we tend to putoff often until those moments. And there's
something that is to me, especiallywith the wedding element, and I think
the other two as well. ButI think more and more we're seeing this

(48:45):
creativity come out where people are ageand younger who are sort of letting some
things fall away and not going throughthe motions because it's the should, and
finding other ways to celebrate the coreof someone's life after they're gone, the
core of a union between two people, the core of a new life in

(49:07):
the world, without just this sortof framework that we just have a worksheet
we fill out with all this formof this is the way we've always done
things. And I think that I'mcurious from your perspective if you feel like
there is more innovation in these areasof human life over the past decade or

(49:28):
two than there has been previously.Yes, I do think so. I
mean, this is something I've beenthinking about a lot too. And sample
size of one here, but okay, I'll give some numbers, right,
But the explosion of the wedding industryin terms of what services are offered,
is massively bigger than it was thirtyyears ago. The explosion of what people
where, how and where they'll doweddings, wedding size, family inclusion or

(49:49):
not, we are seeing a muchbigger configuration. To your point, and
who officiates the wedding, I kindof think that's the biggest thing. I
have one of theline what where it'scalled universalist mary or friends dot com or
whatever it is things just for thoseof you listening, don't go to marry
your friends that I have. Itis probably something weird, but you know
where you can get license. AndI've performed a wedding I'm a friend of

(50:13):
mine six years ago. And Ido feel like as people become less religious
and they so often you go toweddings now and it's this is the person
who introduced us, or this ismy kookie aunt or whatever, you know
what I mean, It's way morerepresentative of the couple than just the neighborhood

(50:35):
clergy person. Yeah, than theinstitution, right, Yeah, Yes,
I think I think that's exactly right. That's been this big shift. I
mean, to me, I likeit because I participated in that way.
It's this interesting question of that peopleare yearning for authenticity in their lives and
there's something about for some people likeI can lean on the institution and that
gives me that sense that's the realthing because it has a lineage, it's
it's one thousand years old. Forthe people that says that has no meaning

(50:58):
to me, like I actually dowhat feels like, I'm going to feel
grounded, connected to my community,and so I think there's been a loosening
of those bonds that it's okay tothen pursue what means something. People may
not say it that way, butthat's what I feel like we're seeing kind
of on both sides. I'm leantowards the institution or what's the new configuration,
especially for a second to the lastdecade, right, there's been a
massive proliferation of online world and massconsumerism, and so everything is manufactured,

(51:22):
it feels like, and so it'sI want something real and those the three
moments you mentioned too, of likebirth of a child, marriage and a
funeral are three moments you can't fake. I mean, you can most likely
take a wedding, I guess,but Martin that you're less likely to if
it's on a reality TV show,you can probably fake a winning, but
yes, the other two are reallyyeah, incontrovertible. Yeah, so I

(51:45):
wonder about that. I think it'sa great question. I also appreciate that
you're asking questions too. This isgreat because yeah, sorry, I confused
because I'm used to asking the questions. Now, were are my notes?
But yeah, I mean, Ido. I feel like I'm doing this
show that is a little bit alay person's attempt to answer apology and oh,

(52:07):
I should be asking you questions.But no, I mean, actually,
one of the things that we hadtalked about before is this is passe
now or is this a real thingthat anthropologists still go by, this idea
of making the strange familiar and thefamiliar strange. That when I first heard
that, however long ago, thatwas really just but emoji with the top

(52:29):
of the head up, mind blownemoji. Like I really feel like that
was my reaction because I do thinkthat there's something so powerful about that idea,
and I think that it really andthis is something that we talked about
a little bit in the JUDGEDI Adjenkinsepisode of Strange Customs. I do really
think that that idea can be theantidote to a lot of xenophobia and a

(52:54):
lot of prejudice. This idea thatwhat we're doing while which feels normal to
us because we've always done it,but what if you looked at it from
the outside, and then here's thisother thing that you never heard of anyone
doing, and maybe you even initiallyhave this a reaction to it that's whu
or seems like too strange to evenimagine, and slowly you can get closer

(53:15):
to it again, imagining that that'ssomething that is taught earlier. And more
wisely, what a world we couldhave. There are so many elements of
technology and this modern world where anindividual person can make the strange familiar in
their lives, and I think thatthat's got to be a good thing.

(53:36):
Totally totally agree. I'm glad thatthe familiar strange made its way here because
it's it's so true, right,and it's it's such an important aspect.
I mean, it's still the samethe first thing that you get taught in
anthropology one O one you know,good good That makes me happy. Yes,
So it's like I'm glad that itsticks around too, because I mean,
it's also like, that's it's goodpr for anthropology. But I also
agree with you. I've read morethan once that different otherpologies have said that

(54:00):
that idea is the antidote de zinophobia. To your point, like I think
it is, it's like by understandingthe customs of others from their own logical
standpoint, right, So it's notsaying you believe that that's weird, but
more like, here's why you thinkthat matters too, Here's why you think
that is what it is. Iknow, so that we're weird and that
we're weird too. Yes, Imean that's another really crucial part of it.
This is such a difficult thing,this idea that whatever you're doing is

(54:24):
normal and right and whatever Veronels doingis work like that is such a problem
in our society. I think itreally struggle with that in so many ways,
where this lack of imagination and lackof understanding, where if I think
there's something really really valuable about seeingyourself and your group as a little peculiar.

(54:47):
Yes, one final pin on thatpoint too, is it just that
as we think about what are ourour cultural heroes, as it were,
like who do we look up to? Who do who do we learn from.
Even the United States professes itself asa Christian nation, it's also like
we are largely a secular society andthat most of our gods or Iron Man,
you know, Darth Vader, whereI guess he's a bad guy,

(55:07):
but you know Pristan Lay and thattells us something too, like in terms
of like where we're getting these theseideas from, and like when we like
to have those kinds of stories.But then also, I think you're one
hundred percent right that there is Ithink a correlation between that and lack of
imagination, you know, in termsof like can we imagine what else could
be? This is actually something thatI did in my previous job. We're
doing some research with a client aboutwhat role does entertainment brands playing people's perceptions

(55:29):
of the world, And like,one of the things we found is that
we see folks on the internet digitalanthropology kind of talking about this threat of
ideas that it's we are only ableto imagine based on kind of the stories
that we're told. Most most commonlywe can of course imagine past those,
but theority of people are going justgoing to draw from what's right around them.
And because of that we are limitingourselves to everything is special outside of

(55:50):
me as a superhero and or somethingelse, like that we can tell other
stories because I think we're fiction issuper important. But then also to your
point, like nonfiction is actually muchmore instructive sometimes too, Like what are
people's lives like in China? Whatare people's lives like as farmers in Peru?
That we need to be able tolook at in that in that space,
and like there is such a valuein doing that. I mean it's
one of these I know there's aprivilege thing to say, but I also
think if more people can study abroador travel, that's that's great. Absolutely,

(56:13):
I mean this should be study abroad. I mean we talked about this
in the same episode that we keepmentioning if we couldn't make study abroad free
and mandatory or at least the socialnorm, what a country we could have
in twenty years. But it's true, I mean, this whole idea of
America as a Christian country, Andlike there's a great book by Andrew Sidal

(56:34):
that I recommend called Founding Myth thatreally explores this and has some fascinating insights
about all the ways in which itwas not meant to be a Christian country,
but certainly it's there's a lot ofcultural elements, and it's I think
in the superhero there's something about elementsof this idea of a good guy and
a bad guy. The bad guyis bad because he's bad, and the
good guy is good because this heroicstory and them battling without lay much nuanced

(57:00):
gray areas or ideas about the waysin which human beings are complex. I
think there are some parallels to someforms of monotheism of Christianity, in particular,
that those kinds of stories seemed tome, looking at both versions of
them from the outside, to havesome parallels. Yeah, and that is

(57:22):
a great example of using anthropological thinkingto say, okay, for looking at
two customs from the outside, whatis an interesting connecting thread between them,
and this is the type of narrativethat we' seeing. Yeah, I think
it's a fascinating question that. Yeah, I don't have an answer to either,
but it's it's definitely one that iswe need to find a middle guest
that will help us talk between thespace. Yes, devoutly evangelical Marvel super

(57:44):
fan got to be somewhere out thereright. Oh, I mean, yeah,
I'm sure there's thousands, but yeah, I think that that's really interesting.
And I feel like I have alittle imposter syndrome about doing this sort
of vaguely anthropological show with being ananthropologist. So I'm really grateful to have
this positive pre amporcement, right totally, And I one hundred percent you earn

(58:09):
it too, because I think theshow is great, and I and also
just appreciate the way because what youhelped me understand actually been thinking about this
too as an anthropologist, is like, how do I also think about making
the stories stay human? Because oftentimeswe can we can veer into theory land
and then it can be interesting butnot always helpful, right, and so
vice versa. I appreciate the workthat you're doing for all of these reasons
of like asking good questions but thenalso helping us think through people's stories,

(58:31):
right, And that's what that's whatwe need to do. And I'm also
saying this listeners, if you arean anthropologist social scientists who like it is
an encouragement to then think about alwaysthrough people's stories, and oftentimes non anthrows
do it better than we do forsome weird reason. So kudos to you.
Also, thank you so much.That's very kind. Well, Slasha,
thank you so much for joining meon the Podsitive. This has been
been super fun in enlightening conversations,so very much appreciate the dialogue and excited

(58:55):
to share your pod with listeners acommunity and hope can it again some time.
Absolutely, and please send me anyideas for weird stuff humans are doing
that we should do an episode on. I would love love, love love,
and for listeners to find me onsocial media, and I be delighted
to hear you know what I thinkis weird Thanksgiving? And here's why I

(59:16):
mean it is weird. Any littlecustoms, any little funny things we do.
I'm always eager to hear the stuffthat we experience in our lives that
makes us feel like a little bitlike an extraterrestrial. Thanks much again to
Sasha's Sagan for joining me on thepodcast today. You can check out Strange
Customs for book, small creatures suchas we and more of a writing through

(59:36):
links in our show notes. Oneof my takeaways from this conversation builds on
the antiplogual edage that we just discussedabout making the strange familiar and the familiar
strange. A Sasha pointed out,the more we deep dive specific rituals or
customs, the more we can seehuman universals echoing across them. In our
rich diversity, we can see unity, and in the traits that we all
share, like the need for ritualsand customs, we can see a beauty

(59:58):
of diverse approaches and pathways. AnAnthropology reminds us that another world is always
possible, and we don't have towait for major life events to question meaning
or what matters to us, orto find awe and wonder and the tiniest
or most mundane of rituals. It'sa challenge I offer you to think about
as always. I'd love to hearfrom you and what your takeaways are.
What were some of your favorite momentsor rituals from childhood that inspired awe in

(01:00:22):
you? And are those rituals thesame today? And in what ways are
you seeking to make meaning in yourlife today, whether for yourself, your
family, or a community. Andwhat else is Sasha got you thinking about?
Shoot me a message is always tothis anthro Life at gmail dot com,
or you get in contact through thecontact page on this anthro life dot
org. A huge thank you,dear listening for joining me once again,

(01:00:42):
your time and attention, our gifts, and I appreciate the time that we
get to spend together. So untilnext time, I hope you stay well,
healthy and happy and we will catchyou soon. I'm your host,
Adam Gamwell, and you're listening tothis anthro life