Episode 200: Thyroid Recovery Truths: What 200 Episodes Reveal About Labs, Meds, and Real Healing

Episode Transcript
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Eric Balcavage (00:20):
Hey
everybody, it's Dr EricBalcavage, and we're back for
another episode of the thyroidAnswers podcast. And it's not
just another episode, it is the200th episode, and because of

(00:42):
that, my friend, my colleague,Dr Kelly Halderman, the co
author of the book The thyroiddebacle, is back on the thyroid
Answers podcast, and we're goingto talk about some of the big
questions that have come up overthe 200 episodes, 199 previous
episodes that we want to covertoday, like what we've talked

(01:03):
about, what we've learned, andwhat that what are the hot
topics, and maybe some thoughtson some of the hot topics that
are going on today. So Kelly,welcome back to the thyroid
Answers podcast. How are youtoday?

Kelly Halderman (01:15):
I am great, and congratulations. Dr Eric, 200
episodes. I mean, time flies,right, but like, what an
accomplishment. So I first, Iwant to congratulate you,
because you have offered so muchinformation in these 200
episodes. So this is a shout outto you and the podcast and all
the hard work that you've done.I appreciate you, and all the

(01:38):
listeners appreciate you. And sothis is so cool that you invited
me to sit down and go throughsome, like you said, some hot
topics. But when you startedthis podcast, let's rewind. Did
you ever imagine we'd be heretalking about a thyroid
recovery, recover, recoveryrevolution, because that's what
it is.

No, you know, initially we just, we started
doing the podcast just to havean outlet to have a discussion
about what, how I was thinkingabout thyroid differently than,
maybe a lot in in our functionalmedicine space, and definitely
different than the allopathicprofession. And honestly, I
didn't know where this processwas going to go. But obviously

(02:20):
there's enough listenership andenough people following the
podcast to have kept it going,but it's been a blast. I've
learned a lot. I've changed alot in some of the things I
think about and maybe thedirection I think things are
heading, but I do think that thebig message is, and I think

(02:43):
people really want that, is theywant to stop managing their
thyroid physiology with labvalue, you know, managing the
lab values and managing withMed, and start really asking,
How do I recover from thisprocess? Because nobody's really
focused on that. Now, apathicmedicine, it's all about
management. And even in thefunctional medicine space, to a
large degree, the focus is stillon management and not

(03:05):
necessarily recovery,

Right, It just feels intuitively wrong. I mean
being a person who learned theallopathic model and then, you
know, ended up getting diagnosedwith a terrible neurological
disease, and knowing that thissymptom management, it's, it
doesn't cut it, it doesn't, itdoesn't really improve the
quality of life. It cansometimes, you know, that's, you

(03:30):
know, kind of interesting. We'llgo into that. But really, you
know, looking at the therevolution of this, again, it's,
it's just something tocongratulate you that you didn't
see coming, but that, again,intuitively we know as patients,
and you had Hashimotos as well,is that, you know, being handed
some medications and thingswe're not getting at the root

(03:51):
cause. It doesn't make itdoesn't make sense. And so
you've really empowered peopleover, including myself, over the
200 episodes.
And I get the question I havefor you is what's the most
surprising thing you've learnedfrom your, you know, erudite
listeners over these 200episodes.

I think one of the biggest things I I've
learned, and continue to learn,is that there's just a lot of
frustration with what we'rebeing told and the strategies
that are being provided, and yetso many people are still stuck

(04:28):
in thyroid purgatory, likethey're better than they were
without medication, but they'renot where they want to be with
the medication, and so theydon't know What to do. And the
messages are confusing, and Ithink even after 200 episodes,
there's still confusion,especially from the model we

(04:50):
talked about in the book that,hey, this is not broken
physiology. It is an adaptiveresponse to an excessive stress,
load and putting more medicationinto the system. Can manage lab
values, it can manage symptoms,but it not. It will not often

(05:11):
lead to recovery. And recoverymeans different things for
different individuals.Obviously, if they didn't have a
thyroid gland, they're going toneed thyroid hormone
replacement. For someindividuals, it's going to mean
I need some thyroid medication,but it actually works. I'm not
just stuck in Purgatory. Iactually feel better. I function

(05:31):
better. My metabolism is better.I don't have all the chronic
signs and symptoms. And then fora lot of people, not only do
they maybe need a lot lessmedication than they were
provided, but a lot of myclients wind up not needing
medication over time. That'srecovery, but you could be
recovering any one of thosemodels, but where most people

(05:53):
are is they're stuck inPurgatory.

Yeah, I totally agree. So if you look back from
episode one to now, what's thebiggest shift you've seen in how
people talk about thyroid healthon social media?

I wish the story was different. I'm not a huge
social media person, but fromwhat I I get when I'm on there.
I wish we'd move actually wishwe'd move the needle further
along in not talking aboutoptimism, optimization of labs

(06:28):
with medication, but the optimoptimization of thyroid
physiology and labs with theappropriate strategies to reduce
the overall stress load shiftfrom somebody from allostasis
back to homeostasis, wherecommunication can reconnect,
inflammatory mechanisms aredown, regulated, metabolism

(06:51):
starts to improve. Then, I don'tthink we're there yet. I think
it's, you know, we still have topush this model and and try and
get it out there into the intothe wide web and ether, so that
more people start to say, Huh,there is another option other
than what's being donetraditionally in allopathic

(07:12):
medicine and the managementmodel in functional and
integrative medicine.

So would you say people are asking better
questions now? Or do we?

I think people are starting to ask. I think
people are asked starting to askbetter questions because of the
information that's going outthere. The problem is there
aren't as many people answeringthe questions, because I don't
think as many people in thisspace are, are thinking from the
from the same paradigm, right,like we wrote a book the thyroid

(07:46):
debacle, based on a paradigmthat we look through the lens of
the cell danger response insteadof broken physiology, adaptive.
And people hear the message.They read the book. I get
messages all the time. I haveyour book. I read your book.
People listen to the podcast, Iget messages about the podcast.
The challenge is that they go totheir practitioner who's

(08:08):
providing t4 or t3 orcombination, and they try and
explain what they're hearing,but that clinician or
practitioner is not in the sameparadigm. So they're like, I
don't know. So now the person'sconfused. They resonate with
what we're saying. That's one ofthe big things I hear from
people, is I really resonatewith what you guys wrote in the

(08:29):
book. I really resonate withwhat you talk about on the
podcast and on your thyroidThursdays in your post. But how
do I how do I get my clinicianto understand what you're
saying. So, but I think peopleare more. People are coming,
asking the question and lookingfor recovery. So I think that
part's good. The confusion is,how do we get there?

Right, and we are going to talk about the
practitioner certificationcourse that you are, you have in
the works. So to really look atthat, that need, where you're
providing the information, it'sresonating, then they go to
their provider who doesn't speakthat same language. And so when

(09:12):
you're telling something to apractitioner that is not aware,
it's not their fault, they'rejust not aware of this, this
paradigm. And then again, thenyou have that, that frustration.
So you're going to fix thatproblem too. So, you know, on
your next celebratory, you know,maybe 300 episodes we'll have.
You know more of you out there,of the practitioners who can

(09:33):
understand this? And I thinkagain, that's where the building
bridges. We're here to buildbridges. And again, I was
trained in the allopathic model.That's okay, but I knew that
again, that it really wasn'thelping me. And you kind of have
that idea of it being again,that that intuitive feeling
where you know, the medication,yes, okay, it's it's here to

(09:56):
help and but sometimes it's not,it's not doing its job.
Up, and so that's great. We'llget into that, but let's kind of
do a deep dive. Let's, let's,let's go through some of the the
data behind recovery. If you'recool with that.

Sure, absolutely

okay. So Dr, Eric, you mentioned that about
70% of your patients experiencerecovery. But I know people
listening or thinking like, whatdoes recovery actually look
like, right? So can you paintthat picture for us?

Yeah, so we did a little assessment of this a
year or so ago, and I went backand looked over the last three
years like, what's How didpatients change? And so over a
six month initial process ofworking with clients, my average
client improved their symptoms,that they came out, their

(10:48):
primary complaints. The averageimprovement was 71% improvement
of patients in that six monthperiod of time, while reducing,
in many cases, the load ofthyroid medication and other
medications, reducing theirsupplementation load and
improving their labs. And soagain, when I talk about

(11:10):
recovery, somebody might say,Well, I'm always going to need
thyroid medication. It'spossible, if you've had a lot of
atrophy, if you've had a lot ofatrophy of your gland, your
gland has been destroyed. Youprobably you might need some and
that you can still haverecovery, because if you take,
if you need 88 micrograms of t4,and five to 10 micrograms of t3

(11:31):
to replace what a dysfunctionalgland or remove gland can no
longer make. But you convertthat t4 to t3 appropriately.
Your levels of circulating t4and t3 are appropriate. Your
reverse t3 is not too high. Youdon't have patterns of tissue
hypothyroidism and signs andsymptoms. That's still in my

(11:52):
model, a recovery model, if youcan still be a person who needs
you know what my thyroid glandhas been damaged over the last
decade and a half, and I need 40micrograms or 50 micrograms of
t4 and I feel good. I functiongood, I converted good. I don't
have patterns of hypothyroidismin my general labs. That's

(12:14):
Recovery to me. And so there arepeople who, in time, may no
longer need thyroid hormonereplacement. If we actually
address the root issues, restorehomeostasis, then their glands,
and many times, can start torecover. It takes time for based
on each individual, but reallythe most important is if we

(12:38):
provide them with enough thyroidhormone t4 between their gland
and the medication. Can theyconvert it appropriately? If
they can, that's still recovery,

Right. Exactly. So how is that different from
what most people experience withtraditional thyroid care in
traditional allopathic model?

The focus is on optimizing a TSH. And so the
it's generally thought that wejust provide enough t4 to bring
TSH into somebody's range.Whatever that clinicians range
is, it may be within the labreference range. It may be less
than two, less than three, lessthan one, you know, each there's

(13:18):
standards in the guidelines. Andthis, you know, where we think
people should be, but clinicianshave really their own set points
many times, just based on theirclinical experience. But the
general belief is that we'retreating people who are in
homeostasis. The only issue istheir glands stopped working,
and that everything elsedownstream is in a homeostatic

(13:41):
state. But the reality is, thepatients aren't, and that's why
I it's why patients struggle inthat model, the doctor has done
the job. He's been taught. Youwere in this model. You if
somebody's TSH is lab high andtheir free t4 is normal, they're
subclinical. We don't treat themyet, because if we give them too

(14:03):
much thyroid hormone too soon,it can create problems. They
wait until TSH is lab high, manytimes above six, above 10,
before they really startprescribing. And the goal in
many models isn't even torestore t4 it is to restore TSH.
And there's way too many thingsthat can influence TSH that make
it less valid.

(14:25):
But that's their model, and it'sfor some people, it works fine.
They're good enough, right?Whether they feel well or
they're in Purgatory, but it'sgood enough that model works for
them. In the functional space.You know, we tend to say, Okay,
there's more to thyroidphysiology than TSH and free t4

(14:46):
and we've shifted to justlooking at free t3 and reverse
t3 as well, and antibodies andthe goal tends to be in a lot of
not everybody, but a lot ofpeople in the functional and
integrative spaces optimizing t3to what they feel is an
appropriate set point. So if wecan get t3 into an optimal range
in the blood, they believe thatrestores Cellular Physiology.

(15:10):
And that's assuming, again, thatthe body is broken and it forgot
how to convert t4 to t3somewhere along the line, and
there's and and so they thinkthat if they give t3 it will
restore Cellular Physiology, andit might help somebody change
signs and symptoms. If they arein homeostasis, providing some

(15:33):
t3 especially if the glandsdysfunctional, can be
beneficial. But if they're notin homeostasis, there is they
can optimize a blood levelwithout optimizing the cells and
the tissues. And there'simplications from both models
that providing too much thyroidhormone in a person with

(15:56):
allostasis, Allostaticregulation, the stressed
physiology, while it cantemporarily change some
symptoms, there's a potentialcascade of problems that can
develop.

Definitely. So that segues perfectly into my
next question, because I knowyou see this on social media,
Instagram and Facebook, thequestion of my labs are normal,
but I still feel terrible.What's wrong with me? You know?
So it's out there that's common.We just talked about that we're
optimizing numbers, and thepatient is not in homeostasis.

(16:33):
They're in allostasis. So whatdo you tell these people?

I tell them, if they have normal blood work,
they have hypothyroid signs andsymptoms, and they're not on
medication, then we need to notjust look at where, what, what
the value is, the set value, butwe have to look at how well
you're converting the activehor, the inactive hormone, to

(17:00):
the active hormone t4, to t3,what does your cells and tissues
favor? And then your Are therepatterns, even though the
thyroid panel is looks normal.If that conversion is not very
not optimal, then we want tolook to see if there's evidence
with that as signs and symptoms,but as abnormal lab values or

(17:26):
patterns of tissuehypothyroidism in other aspects
of their labs, not just athyroid panel, but if somebody
feels and functions hypothyroidand their labs are normal, it's
inappropriate.
Right. And so we still need tofigure out why, and it's usually
the thyroid physiology is notthe problem. In many cases, it

(17:50):
is the alarm, it is the signal.Just like inflammation gets
blamed as being the problem,inflammation is the adaptive
response. It is the defensiveresponse. And yes, inflammation
doesn't make us feel good, justlike reduced conversion of t4 to
TD three and low circulating t3but suppressing the immune

(18:11):
system, while it may feel goodtemporarily, doesn't fix the
underlying issue. Our job, andwe talked about this in the
thyroid debacle was what'scontributing to the excessive
stress load for this individual,not based on a set protocol, but
based on this individual. Andhow do we reduce or eliminate

(18:32):
that load? And when we do that,that's that's the secret sauce
to restoring them back tohomeostatic thyroid regulation.

And you may have touched on this, but why do
you think that disconnectbetween the labs and symptoms is
just so common?

I think the big disconnect is how we were all
raised in medicine, from a froma clinician standpoint, we were
kind of raised that this is therange. If we're in that range,
the values in that range,everything's good, but a lab
value could be normal andappropriate. It could be normal

(19:10):
and inappropriate. It could beabnormal and appropriate, and it
could be abnormal andinappropriate. We need to
interpret too many cliniciansare too busy reading and from
the client standpoint or thepatient standpoint, they've been
sold a bill of goods in allaspects of medicine where we've
said, If we optimize something,we've restored well being. And

(19:32):
that's just not true. It's nottrue if you have high blood
pressure, and we give you bloodpressure medication, we did, we
we normalize your blood pressureor or returned it to a maybe
safer range, but we didn't touchwhat caused the high blood
pressure to begin with. Wedidn't see. Is it a magnesium
deficiency? Is it emotionalstress issue? Is there blockages

(19:53):
of the arteries somewhere? Is itwhat like? What is it why? What
is the cause? We manipulate itjust like Statins like, you
know, like, close to 50% of theUS population is on a statin.
Just because we lower thecholesterol levels doesn't mean
we address the reasoncholesterol was elevated to
begin with, and in much of theliterature, it shows that we

(20:14):
didn't even reduce the riskassociated with cholesterol
getting oxidized, because we'relooking at markers that don't
really relate to what's going onin the physiology. So we've been
sold this set, this falseinformation that manipulating
lab values into range so thatthe blood value is appropriate

(20:37):
correlates with optimal cellularhealth, and it just doesn't

Right. So let's, let's switch gears a
little bit, but obviously righton this the topic, but let's
talk specifically about yourcellular hypothyroidism
approach. So if someone'shearing this for the first time,
how do you explain why theircells might not be using the
thyroid hormone appropriatelyand properly.

Yeah, and this is all really based on the work
of a of a gentleman named DrRobert Naviaux, who wrote the
cell danger response papers, andhe kind of outlined a whole
bunch of danger theorieshypotheses, and kind of compiled
them all into one big modelcalled the cell danger response.

(21:25):
And so for somebody who's new towhat we're talking about, we
typically operate in one of two,say, sets, our cells, our
tissues, our body, in general,in one of two states. We're
either in homeostasis, which isa state where I make enough
energy from the food I bring into run all of the cells of my

(21:47):
body, all the tissues, all thesystems of my body, optimally
under my given load of stress,right? Because everybody thinks,
Well, I can't have any stress tobe healthy. No, when we're
healthy and in homeostaticregulation, we can manage a ton
of stress on our physiology andstill recover and still be fine
and still function.

(22:08):
But when there's an excessivelevel of stress, and that can be
triggered by just generaleveryday life, chronically
building up over time, our dietor nutrition or relationships or
life stress or it can betriggered by an or an infection,
an organism, a tox and an acutesituation.

(22:29):
Once the cells and the cellshave sensors in them that sense
a threat or danger or a lack ofresources, they activate this
state called Allostaticregulation, where they say,
Whoa, there's not enough energyto run all the systems of the
body, because I got this newthreat that I got to deal with,

(22:51):
and that's going to take a bunchof energy. So because I have a
limited amount of energy, I'mgoing to slow down regular
metabolism, the things thataren't important for survival
and I'm going to down regulatethose, and I'm going to up
regulate the immune and theinflammatory system to go out
and find and get rid of thethreat, which is great. We've

(23:12):
all experienced it, right? Ifyou have a viral infection or
bacterial infection, or you havea really severe stressor where
it just the body goes intorecovery like danger mode. I'm
going to find it, I'm going tokill it, I'm going to get rid of
it. And then we go into recoverymode, and we come back to our
homeostatic regulation.

(23:33):
But when we're in this celldanger response, this Allostatic
regulation, the shift you'regoing to be symptomatic, you're
going to have decreaseddigestion, you're going to have
decreased hormone regulation,you're going to have decreased

(23:54):
detoxification, you're going tohave decreased glucose
regulation. All of those systemsare going to be down regulated
to a degree, so that, becausethe body's saying those things
right now aren't important, Ineed to survive. So we ramp up
the immune system, we ramp upthe inflammatory system, we
increase blood flow topotentially brain and big muscle
tissue, and we ramp up thesympathetic nervous system. Be
like, I am ready. And so we thenstart to, unfortunately
experience systems in theseother systems that aren't as

(24:18):
important for survival. And wewe start to have symptoms as
well from the systems that arebeing overly upregulated. Brain
number one, right? So we startramping up the brain we have
anxiousness, anxiety,irritability, insomnia in time
with as it's ramped up, we getbrain fog and we get this
overall fatigue. Our muscles canstart to have some challenges

(24:40):
and problems, like our bigmuscles, because under stress
and danger, we're designed tofight and and flee and try and
get away. And so we getincreased muscle tension,
increased muscle tone, 10 spasmsand things in the musculature,
weakness of the musculature,because we're like this, and
that's the Response that mostpeople in.

(25:01):
And I think the reason it'simportant for people to
understand that is that whenwe're in this Allostatic state,
you shouldn't be surprised thatyour digestion is compromised.
You shouldn't be surprised thatyour sleep is compromised, your
rest, your recovery, that you'reanxious or depressed, these are

(25:23):
all the consequences of being inthis cellular stress state, and
along with that, they need tounderstand that well intentioned
medication may normalize a bloodvalue, but it won't optimize a
cell and tissue level if you'restuck in that state which most
people are. And one more caveatto that is well intended.

(25:46):
Supplementation strategies maynot work the way you want them
to. They can manage signs andsymptoms just like medication
might, but you're never going torestore gut physiology if you're
in a chronic state of your ifyour physiology is in stuck in
this chronic, Allostatic state,you can do any number of gut

(26:07):
protocols, and that may changesigns and symptoms temporarily,
but it's not going to recoverlike you finish that support
supplement protocol, and you go,I was good when I was better
when I was doing it, but now I'mnot doing it, and the symptoms
are coming back, right becauseyou're still in this stress
state. And so it's not thatsupplementation can't work, it's
not that medications can't work,but when we try and force them

(26:29):
into a system that can't usethem at a cellular level
appropriately, it it looks likefailure, and it actually can be
more symptomatic and moreproblematic in time.

Yeah, totally agree. Would you say that
allostasis, the synonym would besympathetic overload. Or can you
kind of tie that together? Youknow, people are kind of aware
of parasympathetic, rest anddigest, sympathetic run from the
tiger. Can you kind of give usthe the similarities between

(27:05):
homeostasis and allostasis, orhow they're similar, how they're
different? Because I that justcame up in my mind, maybe
someone else too.

So I think when people think about these terms,
they're they're terms that arekind of kind of big, Goofy,
like, I don't even know whatthat means, but when you're in
homeostasis, think I'm incellular connection mode. My
cells are connecting. My cellsare communicating. I'm in muscle
building, I'm in hormonecreating. I'm in detoxing mode.

(27:32):
So when we're in homeostasis,you're in cell healing, cell
restoration, cell connection andcommunication mode, which is
critical. When you're inallostasis, your cells are in
defense mode. They're not incommunication. They're not in
cell they're not in connectionmode. You're not in healing mode
in that situation. So when wethink about cellular

(27:54):
homeostasis, we think life isgood. There's a party. I'm
making, everything I need tomake I'm feeling good. My cells
are communicating, just likeCOVID is a perfect like example
of this, when COVID came out,right, everybody went into
defense mode, right? They wentinto their homes. They didn't
communicate with other people.They just stayed in their little

(28:19):
hole, and they lostcommunication with everybody.
You couldn't, you couldn't. Andpeople were losing their health
in that process, because they'velost the communication with the
people they care about, thepeople they work with, the
people they love. And thatcreates a lot of stress and
tension on the physiology. You'dsee marriages broke up. You
know, relationships aredestroyed and damaged because we

(28:42):
lost this communication with thebigger community,and we need to
be in communication with peoplein our community, our friends,
our family members, our lovedones. And when we have that
communication and face to faceinteraction, we're a healthier
society. But during COVID, wewent from, hey, having that

(29:04):
homeostatic relationship witheverybody in our community to
now being in a silo, noncommunicating in defense, and it
created a whole host of healthissues. So I'm not sure if I
tied that to what the point youwere, but I think it was a it's
just, you know, that's what Ithink about when I think about
Alice state. How can we relatethat to everyday life? How were

(29:27):
you when you were before COVID?How were you during COVID? And
how have you know, for as peoplebroke out of that, like, I'm
getting outside. I'm not wearingthe match. I'm going to cut go
talk to my friends. I'm going togo hang out with them. People,
their their personalities cameback. Their joy came back. Their
health started coming back,because they were now

(29:47):
communicating and connectingwith others.

That's great. That's great. Okay, so you
mentioned there are a plethoraof of cellular stressors that
you can see, like blockingthyroid function.And will you
talk about in your experience,what are the most common
cellular stresses, stressorsthat you see that are like
blocking that thyroid function?

I think my mind has changed on these things a
bit, but I think there's thefoundational five things are, to
me, the most important things tofor everybody to consider,
what's my mindset? And you haveto have a healthy mindset. And

(30:34):
this is a little bit differentfrom emotional fitness. I'm
talking about mindset fitness. Ican be sad, I can be angry, I
can depress, be depressed. Thoseare emotional responses to the
environment. But if somebody hasa mindset that I'm sick, I can't
get well. My immune system isattacking me. Nothing works.

(30:58):
That is one of the biggesthurdles for us as clinicians to
help them overcome, and if theywe don't make that if you have a
belief that you're going to besick, that you can't recover,
that your body's attacking youand there's no way out, it's
hard to get those people better.I mean, we both know Bruce

(31:23):
Lipton and have heard Brucetalk, right? And you know, this
was the Biology of Belief thathe talked about almost three
decades ago. And it was like, atthat time, it sounded woo, woo.
But now today, it's like, yeah,if I believe something, it
doesn't mean just because Ibelieve it, it's going to
happen. But if I don't believethat I can get healthy, and if I
don't believe I can get better,and I don't believe, or I

(31:45):
believe I've done everything andnothing works, that's a person
who's going to have a hard timegetting better. So that's
foundationally. For me. We haveto work on somebody's mindset.
Number two, there's the, youknow, there's lots of
disagreements about what we eat,but foundationally, and we've
talked about this multipletimes, eat the closest to a

(32:05):
whole food based diet, as youcan you, you feed you, you feed
your gut flora. What you'reputting in is either going to
have a positive or negativeeffect on your overall health
and what you eat. And when youcan't stress about every little,
teeny, tiny thing you eat, like,oh my gosh, I can have a toxic
Oh my gosh. This could havethat. Oh my gosh, this has this.

(32:27):
But think big picture 80% of thetime. Am I eating a whole food
based diet? If you are, takepause, chill. If you're not,
just start doing that right.Start reducing the crap, some of
the crappy processed foods thatare out there. So that's a
really important point.

(32:47):
Physical fitness, I think you'dagree with me, that is, is
critically important. If youdon't move, you're
deteriorating. And exercise doesa lot if it's not if it's not
excessive, but you got to dosome and you can do more as you
become more resilient, as youstart to get healthier, but you
have to have some level ofphysical activity on a daily

(33:11):
basis. And a lot of people, theythink they have physical
activity, but then when theyreally look at it, they don't
move much.
And then I would say sleep iscritically important. And a lot
of us take that for granted. Iknow I used to take it for
granted, you know, four hours ofsleep at night. I thought that
was a badge of honor, like, I'mtough, because I can do it, and

(33:31):
then you wind up that's probablycontributing to my illness.
And then the last of the foundational things
that are really important is isreally just start looking at the
habits that you have, the thingsyou do down a daily basis. So
many people are worried aboutthe bug, the organism, the
toxin. I'm like, what? What'syour like? What's your habit

(33:52):
like? What do you do every day?Well, I get up and they, you
know, I I go right to my email,and then I have a cup of coffee,
and then I'm tired, so I have asecond cup of coffee. And if you
just look at their habitsthrough the day, you could,
like, Look before you worryabout the organisms, before you
or worry about the toxins, startlooking at the habits. Do you

(34:16):
have a habit of exercise? Do youhave a habit of eating healthy
most of the time? Do you have ahabit of getting a good sleep
system and pattern and habit inplace? Do you have a healthy
mindset habit like, what areyour habits? Many times people
never really think about whattheir habits are. Like. Why
don't have habits? Yes, you do,but you don't. You're not aware

(34:40):
of them until you actually writethem down and go, Oh, is that a
healthy habit? No, okay, whatcan I replace that unhealthy
habit with? I'm on social mediasix hours of the day? Oh, that's
probably not contributing toyour overall health and well
being. What could you take anhour out of that and and add a
healthy. Habit or healthylifestyle factor. Could you work

(35:04):
on your breathing? Could youwork on your quiet time like
mindset? Could you just take anhour out of that? Yeah, I think
many times it's the things wejust don't realize we do or
don't do every day that sets thestage for chronic health issues.
There's a lot of other things,and there's a lot of discussion,

(35:24):
and I think we micromanage. Isit Lyme? Is it mold? Is it this?
Is it that if it was just theorganisms, and for some people,
it can be, but other people areliving in those same
environments, other people getsome of those things and able to
get it and recover. So what'sthe difference? It's their state
they're likely in at the timethey experience those things

(35:48):
that determines how they respondto them, you know? So I think
that's how I would answer that question.

Great.
What's your thought?
Yeah, definitely. I think that you
said it all. I totally agreewith you. And as much as humans,
I think we want something verysimple. We want here's this
supplement, or here's this pill,and then we don't have to change
a darn thing, or we don't haveto evaluate ourselves. It's like

(36:16):
tough love. But you know, that'swhat's going to move the needle.
You you can't skip over all thethings that doctor just said, we
can't skip over them and thenexpect to have this perfect
health I think that it reallyisn't, you know, even for me
being a patient, it wasrecognizing that I can't get
around these and the only wayout is through. And so

(36:40):
evaluating those those habits,evaluating was I getting enough
sleep, all of those things, itall makes the biggest
difference.
And so I totally agree with you,Eric, and something I also agree
with you about is the optimallab ranges, and really looking
at how you've moved away fromthem, and that's popular. Now,

(37:04):
functional medicine now hastheir own optimal ranges, so
we're moving in the rightdirection, but it's still
controversial. Can you explainyour reasoning? Why you don't
just focus on the highs and lowsin that optimal range level?

Yeah, I think we generally when we were in the
early phases of functionalmedicine, training and practice,
you know, we're looking atpeople in the lab range and
saying they're still within thislab reference range, but they're
symptomatic, so that maybe thatrange is too wide. So we said,

(37:42):
instead, or instead of twostandard deviations away from
the midline, maybe half astandard deviation or a one
standard deviation would be ahealthier range. And it sounded
good on paper.
But as you start to do that, andthis happens a lot in the
thyroid world, where we feellike, okay, the range the lab
value, the lab range that yourmy medical doctors looking at,

(38:06):
is really wide. This person'sgot a free t3 at 2.8 that's
below or that's within the labreference range, but they still
have hypothyroid signs andsymptoms, so we'll just give
them thyroid medication and keepgiving it to them until we get
them into a range where theysay, Okay, I feel better. Okay,

(38:28):
now we're going to set that asour new range. People start to
feel better in here if I givethem too much, then they then we
see t3 at this level. Maybethat's symptomatic, so we'll
dial it in. But it made senseinitially, but when we really
think aboutit, the lab valuesare just a picture in time, and

(38:52):
really looking at an individuallab value out of context with
the whole big picture doesn'treally tell us the story. It's a
page in the story, but it's notthe story.
And so I think we have to do abetter job interpreting labs as
a whole, especially in thefunctional medicine community,
to say, even if a value is high,let's say a TSH is functionally

(39:20):
high, or even lab high at six,is that the problem? And the
answer is often no. It is notthat value is abnormal, but it's
might be appropriate for theperson sitting in front of me,
and if I force that value into alab reference range is the

(39:44):
person healthier, and oftentimesthey're not healthier. We've
manipulated into range, but ithasn't really changed the
physiology. So I look at some ofthe times where I've said it,
and I listen when we even whenwe talked about the book. We put
it in the book like here's themaybe what optimal ranges should
be. If you feel well and youfunction well, you might be in

(40:07):
that optimal range. But justbecause you're in the optimal
range doesn't mean your CellularPhysiology is working. You could
have inflammation that'ssuppressing a TSH into an
optimal range, and you stillhave tissue or cellular
hypothyroidism, you could betaking excessive amounts of t3
to optimize it, and it'ssuppressing TSH. But if you

(40:29):
don't care about TSH, or yourdoctor doesn't care, because
they're they're only worriedabout t3 they may not be aware
that, yes, I've optimized onevalue into a range, but I've
actually thrown other lab valuestotally out of range, but we,
we've siloed down thyroid panelsand said, Okay, we're going to
look at just this piece that Icare about, and I'm not as

(40:51):
worried about what's going onthat will consider that
something else. But that's,that's what allopathic medicine
does, and we give them a hardtime, and we're doing it in this
functional space, saying we'dhave to jam the values.
I think, for the for thepatients, the the most important
thing to understand, a couplemost important things to
understand your lab values arerarely ever the actual problem,

(41:15):
where, if you just if yoursodium is low, just take more
sodium. That's not the issue.The labs tell an astute
practitioner the story of what'sgoing on with your physiology. A
somebody who's work, who'sfocused on management, they they
want to see just a marker or twothat they care about and not

(41:36):
look at the big picture, becausethey're they're trying to
optimize a lab value in a a whatI think a true functional
practitioner with a functionalmindset, doesn't matter what
they call themselves, but ifthey're looking at labs and
saying that's elevated, let meask the question, why is that
out act? Why is that lab valueapp elevated, and is that

(41:58):
appropriate for my patient? Yes,then why would I suppress that?
If TSH in a person who's gotthyroid issues is elevated
because they have decreasedconversion of t4 to t3 that
should tell an astute,functionally based practitioner
the body is raising TSH becausethe conversion is bad or it's

(42:19):
down regulated. They have achoice if that's the case, and
that is an adaptive response,does giving them more t3 fix it,
or does it just suppress thevalue? If they say, You know
what that TSH is, is high, yourt4 is normal. There is enough t4
in the system, but your cellsand tissues aren't converting

(42:39):
it. Now we need to figure outwhy I think that's really what
we should be doing from afunctional medicine standpoint.
And so you can have values outof the functional range and
you're perfectly healthy. Youcan have values all in the
optimal range and you're totallyunhealthy. So the range is is
kind of a guide, but it's notabsolute,

Exactly. And I think there's a lot of
functional medicinepractitioners who are, you know,
maybe they've moved over andthey used to be more
traditional, or maybe theystarted off in their functional
and they do these reports,right? Like they get this blood
labs back, and they have thesereports, and sometimes there's
supplements connected to thereport. And so I see it almost

(43:26):
like what you're saying going inand asking the question, why?
They're not even asking. It'slike, Oh, your iron is low. So
here's your iron product. Whenit's like, why don't we ask the
question, Why? Why is the ironlow? Is there gut dysfunction?
Or, you know, your b6 is low.Here's a bunch of b6 and so
that's just kind of word ofcaution. Is that we we can do
better. We know better. We cando better. And what Dr Eric is

(43:50):
saying is that, you know,reading the highs and lows even
in a functional medicine report,and then just supplementing,
without asking the questions,without digging deeper, is
really a disservice. And sothat's just my stance on on that
is that the highs and lows,again, we're kind of just like
we talked about greenwashing ofmedicine, where we're looking at

(44:12):
some things may be appropriate.Like a patient, for example, had
a higher TSH, and she's in her70s, and her doctor wanted,
despite the fact her, her freet4 was fine, wanted to put her
on medication. And you hadexplained to me that if you're
older, you need that TSH to pushto make that conversion. So

(44:33):
again, it's like, if you take itone step further, if we're
learning from Dr Eric andreading the thyroid debacle,
we're going step further thatactually, again, will will help
you not just mass symptoms, notjust take more more medications,
more supplements. So I thinkthat that's excellent, Eric.

I do want to say one thing on this point. Kelly,
though, sorry to interrupt you,but I want to make sure that
people understand that eventhough I come off like a hammer
sometimes. Yeah and say stuff, Idon't think there's bad intent.
I don't think anybody has badintent. Everybody's working from
within their own lens and theirown paradigm. And what I

(45:12):
probably need to do a better jobof is, is for especially in the
functional medicine space, isacknowledging that everybody's
got a strategy, and for somepeople, that strategy is
working, and just provide thatunderstanding that there,
there's something else going onhere, if you're interested, so
that I can help thepractitioners not feel like

(45:34):
they're getting beat up by mesaying, well, that's wrong,
right? Because they're doing itin they're doing their best
under the model that theyunderstand. This is a much
different model than what you'regetting in allopathic medicine,
and to a large degree in, tosome degree in the functional
medicine space. And that's,that's my that's where I need to

(45:55):
kind of, how do I helppractitioners? But I don't think
your practitioners doing thelike, doing it with bad intent,
like, I'm gonna really get thisperson. They're trying to make
you feel better. They just may,may not understand the paradigm
from which we're looking throughand which science really seems
to be moving towards. Is this,hmm, something's happening,

(46:20):
these mitochondria, theseengines inside your cells are
sensing danger, and I thinkNaviaux's work that came out
maybe, is it 10 years ago now,was kind of like, ah, but I
think it's it is gaining moreand more traction, just like
some of the models ofautoimmunity have, are starting
to lose favor and Starting we'restarting to see a shift, and

(46:42):
what we think triggers immuneissues and autoimmunity,

Yeah, and I think you do a very eloquent job
of, you're not judging. You'reliterally taking any
practitioner, anyone wherethey're at, and you're again,
you're providing information. SoI too, I think that people are,
where they're at. They have nobad intentions whatsoever, and
that helps a lot of theirpatients. But I do see where we

(47:07):
can level up all together,right? We can level up and start
to just dig into what else couldbe going on here. And I think
that's what you provide, and youprovide it in a nice, gentle
manner. So keep you know we'relike this podcast right now. I
think that it's just greatinformation, and it's we're all

(47:28):
just trying to evolve, like yousaid, as the science evolves. So
let's, let's put a bow on thatone and move on to some hot
topics in social media. If youdon't mind.

sure. Yep.

So gut thyroid connection is everywhere on
social media right now, rightpeople are posting about their
SIBO, their leaky gut, theirfood sensitivities. Where should
someone actually start?

Yeah, I think for the vast majority of people,
it starts with thosefoundational things we talked
about before, and for the personwho's doing all those things,
because I get them, the peoplethat come to see me, I'm eating
a whole food based diet, I'mexercising, I'm doing all the
things that I'm aware of, Iwould say the big thing to think

(48:17):
about is one make, let's makesure we're not over medicated.
And I did. I've done a couple ofthyroid Thursdays in a couple,
and I maybe a thyroid shortspodcast on gut function, thyroid
medication, how too much toolittle, has an impact on what
goes on in the gut, from adysbiosis, a digestive
standpoint, a GLP, onestandpoint, which is the craze
today. But if you've tried a lotof things and nothing's working

(48:41):
to move the needle, I think wehave to start thinking. And this
was really a bit woo for me, butKelly actually introduced me to
this idea of something we talkedabout in the book, and that was
really the subconscious piece,the the and the map method. And
for a lot of people who arestruggling to make positive

(49:04):
changes with their immunesystem, with the conversion of
t4 to t3 with gut function, gutphysiology, whatever the
condition is,what goes on inyour mind, consciously or
subconsciously, is going to haveA massive impact on your gut
physiology.
And so if you're a person, andit's I've had a couple

(49:25):
conversations this week withpatients who, in the beginning,
you know, there's a lot ofmental, emotional, mindset
issues going on, but they're notnecessarily ready to hear that
voice or hear that message. ButI've had a number of clients who
are like they finally come tothe realization that the

(49:49):
elephant in the room is theirrelationship with their spouse,
their relationship with what hapthey hate, their.
Drop they they're what happenedto them in the past, and
consciously or subconsciously,it that program is continually

(50:10):
running in their brain. It iscausing chronic danger signals.
There's no it's not a bacteria,it's not a virus, it's not a
toxin, it's the mind, and peoplego, Oh, so it's all in my head.
It's in your head, but it's notin your head. It's happening in
your mind. And what we thinkabout the physiology adapts to

(50:34):
so if we're if our if we'reconscious or subconscious,
thoughts are telling your mindthat I'm in danger. I'm fearful
I'm in trouble.
You're going to get downregulation of gut physiology,
down regulation of t4 to t3conversion. You're going to have
inflammation. So I know thecraze today is, Oh, you got to

(50:58):
take my GLP one antibiotic, orI've got the secret antibiotic
or probiotic that's going tohelp you, or this is the drug
this is going to get you there.All of these things have the
potential to change yourphysiology short term. They all
have consequences with them. Andif you don't deal with the
elephant in the room, whichisn't a 16th gut protocol, it's

(51:22):
usually something else, andthat's why we wrote when we
wrote the thyroid debacle, wetalked about this in writing it,
we didn't put a supplementsection in there on purpose. I
know people ask me, like, whywouldn't you guys put what are
the best supplements? Because Idon't know what the best
supplement is for you. And whatmost people do is they go pick

(51:43):
up the book, then they go towhatever the supplement section
is, and they start taking them.But I think we were in pretty
much agreement that thefoundational things were the
most important. And you, I knowyou said you you really had a
positive change in yourphysiology when you did some of

(52:05):
the map work with with MadelineLowry, and as much as I was like
Kelly, come on. But I have sentor introduced lots of my clients
to Madeline, and they have donedramatically better because of
the mindset work.
So I think it's a huge piece. Imean, Joe Dispenza is out there

(52:29):
changing people's lives in aweek by getting them to change
their mind and their mindset.And so I know you were specific
about the sexiness of what'sgoing on in the gut,but I think
that's the result of, in manycases, and not the problem. It
contributes to a problem. But Idon't think the gut problem is

(52:50):
usually the starting point.Unless I went to Mexico, I drank
the water, I got a parasite.Like, okay, that's the that's
the beginning part. But for toomany people, they're carrying
around all of their lifestressors like a heavy rucksack
through life, and it is weighingthem down, driving the cell

(53:12):
stress response down, regulatingtheir gut physiology, creating
low stomach acid production andpancreatic enzymes, leading to
dysbiosis, and that'scontributing to their chronic
gut issues and obesity issuesand inflammatory issues. So
that's, that's how I'd answerit.

I love that, yeah, and I, too, was a skeptic
when it came to map. I mean, Ilike science. I like data, and
so, you know, you're talkingabout quantum energy and things.
So I was like, I'll try it,right? So there's no placebo
here, because I was like, How inthe world, is going to work? But
I had a change in my my ouraring data. I had subjective

(53:51):
changes. And I will add in 2025,I started to do Emotion Code,
which, again, is, is treating,not the physiology, but the
emotional aspects. Because if Idon't, I just figure if I if I'm
leaving something behind. Icould take every supplement in
the world. I can do everythingright. I can. I can eat a

(54:13):
perfect diet. But just like DrEric said, those are going to
take you down. They're theelephant in the room. So wanted
to add that's another one of mynew woo, woo tools that I've
that I'm using, and I'm gettinga good response out of that.

And there's lots of techniques, right? There's
lots of techniques everybody'sgoing to need to find the one
that resonates with them. Butdon't discount what's going on
up here. I have a client, arelatively new client who's been
through a lot of functionalpractitioners and has had severe
anxiety since they were a youngchild. And everybody's

(54:49):
optimizing their this. They'reoptimizing that. And she's still
anxious, and she's like, well,you know, one of the
conversations, why do I havechronic reflux? And I'm like,
because.Is you're in a state offight or flight chronically for
two decades or more. You're notYou're always unless you fix
that piece that's wound yourlimbic system up like the

(55:11):
biggest bicep muscle you've everseen. There's no way your gut is
ever going to restorephysiology. You're not going to
restore conversion. You can takeall the thyroid hormone in the
world just going to make youmore anxious and more edgy. You
got to calm down and unpack thatwhat's been driving the anxiety
for so long. You gotta and realstuff happens to people, so I'm

(55:32):
not making light of it. I knowyou, you wouldn't, you would
never do that either, but youhave to somehow. You got to man
it. You have to be do a betterjob of reframing it and and
either leave it, go reframe itand leave it, go and move on and
just say, hey, that was that wasa time in my life. I learned a
lesson from that. I'm going tomake changes moving forward or

(55:54):
but find a strategy so thatyou're not dragging all of that
with you constantly, and eventhough you say, but it's been
that way my whole life. Itdoesn't have to be your
future,right?

Exactly.
Okay, great. So let's move on tothe medication debates, if
you're good with Yeah, okay, somedication debates, they're so
intense online t4, versus t3,combination using natural
desiccated thyroid. People, itseems like they're switching all

(56:30):
the time trying to find thesweet spot. You know, following
this influencer or this doctorand their protocol. You know,
what would you want them tofocus on instead,

I think, for the for the person who's interested
in a recovery process and not amanagement process, the number
one thing that they need Toconsider regarding medication
is, Do I have enough T4 and freeT4 in the system in circulation

(57:09):
to be available to convertbetween my thyroid gland and my
medication? Be less worriedabout the TSH, be less worried
about the t3 and free T whenyou're thinking about medication
focus, unless you've had yourgland totally removed, or you're
on a full replacement, likeyou've totally shut off the

(57:32):
gland. In those situations, Iwould say yes, you may need five
to 10 micrograms of t3 becauseyou're not getting any of that
from the gland. The glandusually makes five to 10
micrograms, and myrecommendation, typically for
clients, is don't take it in onedose. Take that in a split dose,
because that'll ride the highsand lows. But if you're taking
75 micrograms of t4 it may betoo much. It may be too little,

(57:59):
it might be just right. Ifyou're have enough t4 let's say
your total t4 is 6.57 but yourTSH is still elevated. You don't
need more to suppress TSH if youwant recovery, you just need to
know have enough t4 and peoplemight say, but my reverse t3 is
high, though, okay, well, or myt3 and my free t3 are low. Yeah,

(58:22):
that's the story we need touncover. We don't need to hide
it. We need to say you haveenough T for your body. Knows
how to convert it if it wantsto, it doesn't want to, because
there's some type of stressresponse going on. So make sure
there's enough t4 in the system.Not excessive, not too much, not

(58:42):
too little, but enough. And ifyou want to talk about optimal
ranges, yeah, okay, is thereenough in the is it in the
optimal range of t4 or free t4but I don't, I should, I
shouldn't even said that, maybe.But is there enough? So you look
at the lab reference range, youlook at the in the optimal
range, maybe. But is thereenough T for available? If

(59:03):
there's enough t4 available, andyou want recovery, don't force,
don't take so much to force theTSH into into a lab range. And
if you're a person who's takent3 this is my opinion,
everybody's got a differentopinion. If you're, if you're
taking less than a full dose ofthyroid medication to fully

(59:25):
replace the T4 the gland wouldmake don't and your t3 is low,
you don't need to keep trying totake t3 medication to optimize
the t3.
you feel better and then youfeel better and it doesn't last,
and there's issues that go withit, but I don't think in in my

(59:47):
world, the average person shouldprobably need more than five to
10 micrograms of t3 because myfocus is, let's make sure if the
person has a dysfunctionalgland, we replace with that this
functional gland can't make. Andthen if there's still reduced
conversion of t4 to t3 or stilllow t3 or free t3 then that's

(01:00:11):
what our job is to fix. Helpthem fix is find out why it's
not converting, not manipulateit.
That's what I would tell mostpeople like because and don't be
worried if you're, if your t3 is2.8 and somebody says, well, the
optimal range is 3.5 to 4.5that's if you were optimally
healthy. That's if you're inhomeostasis. You are not if

(01:00:34):
you're, if you were inhomeostasis, you would need the
t3 because the body wouldconvert it anyway. So that's

Kelly Halderman (01:00:40):
Yeah, I think that's great. I think the way
where I would put it.
you explained it, it reallyhelps patients understand that
medication isn't the magicbullet. It's really like Not,
you know, putting more in thesystem isn't just going to
magically tell your cells thatare in that lockdown mode that,
you know, we should beconverting it. So I think
that's, that's a great way that,when we talked about that

(01:01:01):
analogy too, is that more isn'tbetter. I know we're Americans,
and we think more is better,and, you know, we're gonna,
we're gonna force it, but Ithink that, you know, you really
did a great job of of talkingabout why, you know, you just
keep chasing and switchingmedications. It's, it's not the
answer. That's not the answer.

Eric Balcavage (01:01:18):
Listen, I wish it was, but for the vast, you
know, for a lot of people, theycan't find it. They're just keep
chasing this mythical dose.That's gonna work. But if you,
if you, if you're inhomeostasis, five or 10
micrograms of t3 to replace whatthe gland would have made,

(01:01:38):
appropriate levels of t4 tocompensate for what the gland
can't make. That should work,and it should work fine. You
should feel good. You shouldfunction good. Your lab should
look good, all of the labs ingeneral.

Okay, let's talk about a Facebook issue or
even Instagram issue. I knowtoo. I see people posting their
lab results in Facebook groupsand asking strangers to
interpret them, or even likeasking chat GPT to interpret
them. So, you know, that's aslippery slope in danger. It can
be, you know, misleading aswell. So what questions should

(01:02:15):
they be asking their doctorsinstead of strangers and
computers instead?

Well, I think the I think person who's going
on medication should ask thequestion, what are we trying to
achieve? Like, what am I tryingto what are we achieving with
this therapy? Are you optimizinga lab value, or are we fixing
what caused this? Like, are wedoing a management strategy, or

(01:02:44):
what we doing allowing me torecover my thyroid physiology?
What are we trying toaccomplish? If they say, Well,
I'm trying to optimize a labvalue, because that's going to
restore your, your CellularPhysiology. How are we going to
determine that?
Well, because the TSH will benormal, or the t3 it'll be in

(01:03:05):
the optimal range, but you'remanipulating that into range. So
how do we know that we'verestored cellular thyroid
physiology and the other and thesee what they say, right? If
they say we're just gonna but ifthey just say, well, we're just
gonna look at this lab value andthat's it, then you're not on a

(01:03:26):
recovery strategy. You're on amanagement strategy. If they're
not gonna look at other labvalues, other than a thyroid
panel to see how that thyroidmedication is actually working
in the cells and tissues, thenyou're on a management path. And
if that's not what you want, youneed to find somebody who's
going to help you recover? Ifsomebody says you can't recover
from thyroid physiology, fromhypothyroidism, Hashimotos
hypothyroidism, you're not on arecovery path. You're on a

(01:03:46):
management path, because thatperson doesn't believe you can
recover in the first place. AndI've been doing this 30 years.
At this point, I've had plentyof people recover their thyroid
concerned,
And then I think the otherquestion is,
physiology, hundreds, way morethan that, probably, and like,
again, based on the model, lotof people don't need thyroid

(01:04:07):
medication. And the other thing,andI know you understand this
part and realize this too, thatmany times that people are put
on thyroid medication with goodintent, they see an less than
optimal lab value, and they'resymptomatic, and somebody puts
them on the medication, and thatstarts the road to more

Yeah, that's great. That's great. And I think
problems, because it just windsup on more and more because the
body's trying to get rid of itwhat it didn't want. And once
people start once somebody doesdo a good job in interpreting
the labs and making the shift toa more appropriate dose for
recovery, what clients oftenfind out is, man, I'm starting

(01:04:49):
to feel better with less of thisstuff. I'm not as anxious, I'm
not as I don't have as muchinsomnia. I'm sleep. Better at
night. I still don't feel great,but I don't feel like I'm wired
and tired at the same time. Andyou there's a lot of these
clients, and I don't prescribe,but I give the recommendations

(01:05:10):
to their clinicians and tellthem why. But as we get down, we
often find that a lot of theseBP, a lot of the people never
needed thyroid medication. Theirgland can make it, but they were
prescribed it because of theconversion issue, or an elevated
TSH because of reducedconversion. And then once

(01:05:30):
they're off the medication,they're dramatically better. And
now they're like, but I'm stillsymptomatic. I still have some
signs and symptoms, right? Yourthyroid gland makes enough
thyroid hormone now you need touse that low t3 without the
medication manipulating it, themedications out of the way if

(01:05:51):
they've been able to come off ofit and get weaned down. Now
let's go back what iscontributing to that load that's
causing this reduced conversion.But that's a different model.
And so after you have to askyour your clinician, are you is
this a management strategy or arecovery strategy? And see what

(01:06:11):
they say.

(01:06:35):
that that gives patients a voiceso they can advocate for

(01:07:11):
themselves and be clear aboutwhat they want. Do they want a
recovery strategy? Do they wantjust that management, you know,
and really, really look forthemselves like, what are they?
What are they searching for,right? Because they're two
different strategies. I mean,you've helped me recover, right?
And so I've been able to get offmy thyroid meds altogether. We

(01:07:32):
addressed all the cellularstress. You know, it takes a
while, but that's what I wantedfor myself. And so, you know, we
can, we can work together toagain, give, give patients, the
give people the words to to helpthem understand more. Again,
take control of their healthcare. Because health care
really, you know, primary carestarts with the care we give

(01:07:54):
ourselves.
And that rolls into my nextquestion about stress. Stress
Management. Content is huge. Youknow, every time I open up my
social media, it can be all theoptions of, you know, there's
devices that can help withstress, there's meditation apps,
there's just breath works. Wecould do cold pleasures and
saunas, but I feel like I myselfand maybe some other listeners,

(01:08:18):
I get stressed out of be aboutbeing stressed because I'm
trying to manage it. So what'swhat's your advice for me and
for the listener about how wecan prioritize this and help
tackle stress and not getstressed about being stressed?

I think there's a couple simple things you can
do. One is you've got to be it'sthis sounds but you got to set
your intention for the day andyour schedule for the day, and
you have to learn to stick toit. Like, what's the plan for
the day? If you don't have aplan, then you're taking on

(01:08:54):
everybody else's burden as yourpriority. So you have to have a
plan and a script for the day,like, what am i What's my goals
for the day? What are the plans?How am I going to do the day, at
least the the vast majority ofthe days a week I could see,
like on the weekend? Hey, I'moff. We're going to just kind of
free flow, flow through theweekend. Great. But in general,
how do you reduce the stress yougot to schedule your life and

(01:09:15):
your time for health, not foreverybody else's priorities? So
I'd say that is one of the firstplaces to start.
Number two, most people don'tneed any type of device to
manage stress better, and Ithink we talk about stress as
it's a terrible thing. We needstress for growth and

(01:09:37):
development. So it's not aboutstress, it's about your
resiliency. So when thingshappen, if you've you have to be
okay with saying no, you have tobe okay with scheduling your day
so that you load it with all thework that needs to again get
done as a priority, plusincludes your health. Health

(01:10:00):
habits. And one of those isjust, I fully believe, is having
time, carve out time foryourself, quiet time for
yourself, not social media, noteverything else, just quiet time
for yourself, where you canlisten to the noise that's going
on in your head. And that is,that's a huge thing. And then

(01:10:21):
when you start to hear whatthose messages are going on in
your head, then you have tostart reframing them or asking
better questions. Is this reallymy problem? Is this really
something I need to do today? Isthat somebody else's issue? Is
this something that's a priorityfor me, and if it is, then it

(01:10:45):
gets put on your priority list.
If it's not, you have to be okaywith saying that's not my
priority, right? Well, my kidsneed they need me to make their
their their lunch for school.No, they don't. You do your kid
can make their lunch. You needto teach them how to make their
lunch, but they can make theirlunch, and that just freed up 10
minutes of your time that youcould do something that's more

(01:11:06):
productive for you. You're notbeing selfish. You're actually
teaching them a life skill. Ihave to do the wash. Just wash
all the way. No, you don't. Youcan teach your kids how to do
that. You can teach your spousehow to do it.
Now, everybody has differentroles in the house, but we make
excuses many times for that, weor I have to do it all, but you
don't. And if you, and I thinksometimes, that's a defense

(01:11:28):
strategy. So you don't actuallyhave to listen to the noise
that's going on in your head.You you fill your life with
everybody else's busy stuff. Soyou don't actually have to
listen to the noise that's goingon in your head.
And then the last once you startlistening to those messages, and
you start thinking about and youhave that quiet time to really
reflect you, you need to start,I think we need to all learn how

(01:11:52):
to start reframing thesituations. We've all had,
terrible situations that havehad happened to us in life. And
you know, I I've said this manytimes in the podcast, you know,
my own personal life, I've had alot of things that happen that
are very negative things on mylife, and early on, they
contributed to my excessivestress load and some of my
health challenges early on, butin time, I started learning how

(01:12:18):
to just reframe the situations,bad relationship with my with my
parents. You know, surprisingly,they just showed up the other
day, and I hadn't talked to him,and like, really had a
conversation with him in 10years. But I was dragging their
their challenges, theirproblems, their dysfunction,
along with me and all of thethings that happened.

(01:12:40):
But at some point along the way,I said, I'm not responsible for
them, their behaviors, theiractions. I don't have to bring
them into my world and beresponsible for it. And their
thoughts about me and theirbeliefs about how I should be
and how I should behave, aretheir issues, their problems.
And I took the issues some ofthose really negative

(01:13:01):
consequences, and I just reframethem like some of the net,
really negative and traumaticthings that happened. You can
look at those and carry thosearound and and worry and in and
just kind of keep thinking abouthow terrible it was. But what I
had to do for my own health andwell being was saying that was a

(01:13:21):
terrible situation. I didn'tenjoy it, but I am who I am
today because I learned fromthat experience. I think I'm a
better parent today than I maybeI would have been because of how
my parents raised me. I'm takingthe good stuff and the bad

(01:13:43):
stuff, and I'm changing thedirection of my my personal
life, my fitness life, mydietary life, my social life, my
relationship with my wife andkids. I see what wasn't good,
and I'm it's allowing me tochange.
So while there was a lot oftrauma and those things, and I'm
not dumping everybody's got aworse story than somebody else,

(01:14:05):
but I had to reframe it.Otherwise it was tanking my
health. And once I startedreframing all these bad
experiences into how can I learnfrom that and turn it into a
positive for my life goingforward? Man, that was huge, and
I just had a conversation withwith my brother recently, and he
said, You know, when people hearthe stories, they're amazed that

(01:14:28):
we came out this way, but that'sbecause I think we've one of the
things it did for us in ourfamily. I've got a brother and a
sister, and we probably growingup, we weren't as close as we
could have been, but we are asclose as siblings could be, and
our families are that close, butbecause of the chaos of growing

(01:14:52):
up, we had to circle the wagonsand protect each other and that
bad relationship. Has turnedinto three siblings who have
very tight relationship andwho's all of kid all the kids
have that's have a very goodrelationship and see the benefit

(01:15:12):
of family and communication.They look at what my parents
missed out on. They're like, howcould they do that? But they see
what's happening here. So Ijust, I would argue with
everybody, yes, you have a storyto tell. Yes, it was traumatic,
yes, it was terrible, but find away to reframe the situation,

(01:15:34):
because that then impacts yoursubconscious, to move you
forward in life and leave go andforgive, right? It's not you
like, it's not like you forget,but you can forgive them. They
have their issues, their owndemons, but I got to deal with
me and my life, and how can Itake these experiences good and

Right? I love that, and I just heard yesterday
that one of the best bio hacksthat we that we really should
use more often is forgiveness.And I was like, Whoa. That hit
me like a ton of bricks. Andlike you were saying, there's an
element of of turning thatmisery into your mission, you

(01:16:15):
know, breaking the cycle, makingsure that you you're seeing not
just this as like all thishappened to me and that victim
mentality, but like turning itand seeing like the the gift in
it, like this is what I want tobe, in contrast to what I went
through. And the forgiving is,is for the Forgiver. And so I

(01:16:35):
just think that is one of themost powerful bio hacks, is
reframing and and seeing thegift in some of our the trauma,
and not just carrying it aroundand having us weigh us down, and
then the of course, like justjust using it to upgrade
yourself, and not, like havingit be that subconscious, that
thing that's driving you down,and we see that all the time,

(01:16:56):
and it's not just like, Oh, I'veforgiven everyone one and done.
It's like this is life, right?Like things happen to us all,
all the time, and so it's just aconstant reminder of what we can
do with situations that may, mayseem like they're there to take
us down. We can, we can reallylevel up again from them. So
really nicely put Eric,

and I think that we should touch on that one
more. It just because youforgive them doesn't mean those
people need to come back intoyour life.

No, exactly right.

Like, we've had conversations where, like, I'm a
very black and white person, ifyou're good to me, I will do
everything I can for you, butthe moment that I feel somebody
crosses me, I'm done, right? AndI, I lost a really good friend a
number of years ago because ofsomething that they did. And I

(01:17:48):
had friends say, you know, like,can't you just forgive them? I'm
like, I did forgive them, but Idon't need that type of
personality behavior in my life.It's not healthy for me to be
around that. So I cherish, yeah,I cherish the time we spent
together. We had fantastictimes, but the minute somebody

(01:18:10):
shows you who they are, trustthem, right? And if that's not
congruent with where you want tobe, who you are or where you
want to be it's okay to leavethem behind.

Unknown (01:18:25):
That's right. What do they say? Fool me. Fool me once,
shame on you. Fool me twice,shame on me. Yeah. So that's
kind of how I learned my lessonis like, I'm forgiving, and then
I'd let the person back into mylife when they've shown me who
they are, just as going tohappen, happen again. So again,
like you said, like, forgivingdoesn't mean again, letting that
stress and that being a doormatcome back in on you. I think

(01:18:48):
that's really healthy to to givethanks for. Like, we had some
great times. It was great. Butthen this is where I draw the
line. Those are good boundaries.And a lot of your listeners are
women, and we need betterboundaries, ladies, we really do
and so great point there.

Awesome. We got to start wrapping this puppy
out.

We do? We do? Can we? Can we? Can we hit on a
little bit of nutrition? Yeah,let's go. Okay, lots of advice
out there, conflicting. Do keto,don't do keto. Do iodine. Don't
touch iodine. You know,goitrogens, like back and forth.
How do you cut through the noisewe kind of already talked about?

Any, yeah, any, any diet can change your
physiology temporarily, right?But ultimately, don't. Don't
fall trap to any one of the foodfads, food religions, the
primary focus for everybody isstart with a whole food based
diet. 80, 85% of the time. Somepeople would say, well, you

(01:19:56):
should do it all the time. Ithink it. Especially our
industry, has created a lot offear around food. You can't eat
gluten, you can't eat rice,can't eat dairy, can't eat this,
can't have eggs, can't do this.And just the fear that some food
is going to poison you createspart of the stress load. So just

(01:20:20):
focus on a whole food baseddiet. I had a disagreement with
somebody the other day. We'relike, but shouldn't it all be
organic? Shouldn't it all be Didyou know what's in some of those
foods there, they could stillhave toxins. I'm like, Look, we
could make that argument aboutevery single freaking thing. And
where do we go? Nowhere, and wejust frustrate people. So eat

(01:20:46):
whole food based diet. Try to,I'm a believer, try to eat in
season when you can locallygrown, if you can buy it
organic, and it makes sense froman organic standpoint, great.
But there's all kinds of noisethat even the stuff that's
organic and what's put on, thosecan be challenges and problems.
So just focus on eating a wholefood based diet. 80 85% of the

(01:21:09):
time. You can say, Well, whatabout what about pasta? What
about this? When I say wholefood based diet, eat the food as
close to net as it came out ofthe ground, off the tree, out of
the water or out of, you know,off the ground, whatever it is,
but just see as close to naturalas you can right? If it's if it
has to be processed, it'sprobably not on your 85% of the

(01:21:32):
foods I want to eat on a regularbasis.

Unknown (01:21:35):
Awesome, perfect. Okay, so a lot of people are sharing
transformational stories, but wedo hear a lot of people sharing
that they've tried everythingand nothing's working. And we
did talk about this kind ofearlier on the podcast, but just
to kind of recap, like, whatseparates those who recover from
those who stay stuck? And wedid, you know, talk about
emotion and other things, but ifyou just kind of want to

(01:21:56):
summarize that again, I thinkthat's such an important point.

Well, I think, you know, I hear that all the
time. When people come to seeme, they're like, All right,
I've done everything and nothingworks. I've seen a lot of people
and nothing works. What are yougoing to do different? And I'm
going to say there's a couplethings. One, you have a belief
that you've done everything,that you're aware of. The

(01:22:21):
biggest thing that has probablynot occurred is somebody hasn't
really worked with you toidentify your state, the state
you're in. Are you inhomeostasis or Alice states? If
you've done everything andnothing works, you're not in
homeostasis. There's no wayyou're you, or you would or you
you'd be fine. So you're in anAllostatic state, and you're

(01:22:44):
doing everything you're aware ofand your doctor's aware of but
you're probably treatingyourself with support, and your
clinicians are trying to supportyou as if you are in Al, in
homeostasis, and you are not. Ifyou want to succeed, you have to
believe that there's somethingthere's another option out

(01:23:05):
there. There's something I'm notuncovering. And I think you have
to stand from the come fromthis, from a point where my body
is not broken, it's not tryingto kill me. I just need to
identify what's creating thatstress. And for so many people,
it is their mind and theirmindset and the emotion, the
emotion that's winding up theirlimbic system that's not getting

(01:23:28):
them or allowing them to getinto a system where we can shift
from cell danger, right? Thisthe allostatic regulation to
cell communication andconnection and repair and heal.
And I I just, I've, I can't tellyou how many discovery calls
where I have people tell methat, and when I tell them, I'm
like, Look, we got to look atyour life, your lifestyle

(01:23:49):
factors. Got to make sure you'renot over medicating, over
supplementing. But there'ssomething here, and many times
it is. They're they're notdealing with the elephant in the
room. They're not, they're notready to discuss it. Just I had
just recently had a client, andshe's like, You know what? I
think it's my relationship withmy spouse. I'm like, we talked

(01:24:13):
about it before, and it wasn'tan issue. It is. Yeah, well, if
you're living with that personday in day out, and you're
subconsciously angry and upsetabout them, day in, day out,
you've done everything. You'resensitive to supplements. You
don't you don't toleratemedications. Well, like it was
never the supplement or themedication, it was always the

(01:24:36):
elephant in the room. That wasthe biggest thing you needed to
tackle, which is what's going onwith my relationship, that it's
creating fear danger for me, andsometimes people aren't even
aware, but there's somethingthere, and you have to believe
that there's still somethingthat needs to be uncovered, and

(01:24:57):
you have to be open to the idea.Life that you aren't doing
everything. That's what I'd say.

Unknown (01:25:06):
All right, so let's wrap up by talking about the
future of thyroid care. So basedon everything you've seen, Eric,
over 200 episodes, 20 years ofexperience in your practice,
where do you see thyroid careheading in the next five years?
And what gives you the most hopeabout the future of thyroid

I'm hopeful that we'll start to see see thyroid
treatment?
physiology and health in generalfrom this, this model that I'm
that I'm proposing that thismodel that Dr Naviaux and others
are proposing, that we're notbroken right, that there's the

(01:25:48):
body's responding, read,adapting to something, and I'm
hoping that, with the help ofother functional medicine
practitioners who think like Ido, will stop trying to
manipulate labs for the peoplewho truly want a recovery
strategy, will stop trying tooptimize labs and manipulate

(01:26:09):
them into range, and call thathealthcare. And instead, we'll
say, look, there's enoughhormone. There's enough hormone
in here. We've got to get busyidentifying what's created,
contributing to your excessivestress load. So we'll do less
management, more recovery. And Ithink that's how, not only do we
move thyroid care forward in thefuture, but we'll move

(01:26:32):
healthcare forward in thefuture, and with people like you
and other people with like mind,we need to start, or continue to
get this model out there in away that people who already feel
like they are this is it that wecan get them to start opening
their eyes and take andpotentially, kind of pull the

(01:26:54):
blinders back a little bit likethere's something else, there's
an other way. There's anotherway to tackle this process, and
it's more beneficial for theclient, it's more beneficial for
overall healthcare. It's morebeneficial for you as the
clinician, because you're notjust focused on manipulating

(01:27:15):
values, but you're actuallyproviding true healthcare, both
in allopathic and functionalmedicine.

Unknown (01:27:21):
Yeah, and you're developing that certification
program to train otherpractitioners. And I was going
to ask you, what's driving thatdecision, but you really kind of
laid it out, and the need forit, the need for that education,

yeah. I mean, like, I can't see everybody, and
I need more. I need more of aclinician community who can help
move that model forward like Idon't. I'm not the be all, end
all. I'm always working to tryand figure out why this couldn't
work or shouldn't work, or whyit could be wrong. But if I, if

(01:27:58):
I get more like minded people tostart to see this as an adaptive
physiology model versus a brokenmodel, then their collective
minds, your collective mind, thecollective intelligence of this
whole group, can start to reallycreate the movement that changes
how we address health care inThis country and others. I mean,

(01:28:21):
we've got, right now, they'rethey're trying to make changes
to some degree in what'shappening with the healthcare
crisis in this country, butreally, we have to change the
thinking from diseasedysfunction disease broken to
adaptation is the initial issue,which then can become
dysfunction and disease if wedon't ever address what we're

(01:28:44):
adapting to. But that's themodel we need to change if we're
really going to move healthcareforward. That's real. That's
really how we're going to do it.
So I, I need, I'm in the processof putting that together. I
haven't announced this yet, butwe're probably going to, I'm
probably going to just startdoing some, what did you call it
open rounds or something? I haveprobably allow some clinicians,

(01:29:08):
we'll just do, like, maybe oncea month, do open rounds where
people could, clinicians couldput their they can sign up and
for the open round, and we canjust hash out labs. Okay, here's
the labs. What would you howwould you interpret? How would
you interpret? How would Iinterpret it? Okay, this is give
somebody start helpingclinicians learn a little bit

(01:29:30):
differently in the future. Yeah,I really do want to have the
certification process of thisthinking process, it's really
all going to be built on thekind of the cell danger model,
this Allostatic homeostaticsystem, and hopefully we can
then train clinicians to helpthem in this journey. Because

(01:29:54):
it's taken me 10 years ofworking through the process and
all the time, and. Literatureresearch and making these
arguments for myself and againstdifferent things to really get
this and you know, it the way weprogress forward is having more
people. So when people say, hey,I need somebody in my area. Who

(01:30:16):
is it? I don't say, I don'tknow. I can say, it's Joe, it's
Kelly. It's so and so. It's soand so. And I think that's the
way I make the bigger stamp onon this movement is not by as
much as I love saying, seeingpatients one on one, the bigger,
the bigger way I can affecthumanity is by helping change

(01:30:39):
the model.

Unknown (01:30:42):
Gotcha, so what can listeners expect from the next
200 episodes of the thyroidAnswers podcast? Yeah,

well, I think we're going to continue the
thyroid shorts episodes, becausethat seems like it's getting
some traction. So those are like2030, minute episodes where I
just cover one topic, right?Don't get into too much stuff.
Just dig in deep on one topicand get them covered. I have not
asked you, but I would like toget you back on the podcast on a
more regular basis for maybe oneepisode in a month, to talk do

(01:31:14):
like this kind of format wherewe do more thyroid specific
stuff. And I think the focusreally of the of the podcast
going forward, the next twomonths, is really going to be to
bring in people who who thinkalong the what lines of this

(01:31:34):
cell danger model, thisAllostatic regulation, and kind
of marry up with some of theprinciples we talk about in the
book, and then also people whohave different and unique
strategies for improving thelevel of fitness, and what we
call those fitness factors. Sookay, how do I improve mindset

(01:31:56):
fitness? Well, then let's justhave if we're gonna have a
guest, let's have a guest who'sgonna talk about here's
strategies that I've, that I'veseen and I've worked through
with clients, that improve theirmindset fitness, that improve
their habitual fitness, thatimprove their physical fitness,
that improve their emotionalfitness. Talk and we can, we're
going to talk about thosethings. So not only can they

(01:32:18):
pick up a book or get thethyroid recovery blueprint,
course, but there, there you canlisten to the podcast. It's all
going to be really focused onmoving this, this thought
process, forward. So in thepast, I've had some fantastic
guests, but their beliefprocesses in mind were

(01:32:38):
different, and sometimes thatcreates question like, I don't
want to say uncomfortablepodcast, but I I have a tendency
to question somebody when theysay, this is this. I It's my
tendency to do it, and I know itdoesn't resonate with some
people. Some people love thatfact that I'm challenging

(01:32:59):
people, but I want to move thismovement forward, and so I'm
going to everything about thepodcast over the next 200 200
episodes is going to be focusedon, how do we educate and move
this movement forward, so thatwhen people come to this podcast
on a regular basis, they have Abetter understanding of their

(01:33:21):
own physiology, and then theycan share that message, and
they'll have the skills thelanguaging of how to talk to
their physicians, how to talk totheir family members, how to
talk to their friends, how totalk to their health coach to
make sure that they're on a pathfor thyroid and health recovery
and not just Management.

Unknown (01:33:39):
Awesome. And then lastly, but not least, any final
thoughts on someone who hasfollowed your work and they're
now ready to take the next stepsin their thyroid recovery
journey.

Yeah, make a decision that you're going to do
it. So step one, I can't workwith everybody. So number one,
if you have an interest inpotentially working with me,
they can always go to mywebsite. To my website and
schedule a complimentarydiscovery call, and we can talk
about what's going on and whatthey're trying to accomplish. If
you're if you're a person who'sreally looking for a management
strategy, that's not me. Ifyou're looking for a recovery

(01:34:15):
strategy, it may be me. And thenwe the options for working with
me at this point is we have forthe person who wants more of a
self guided process, I've puttogether the thyroid recovery
blueprint, which walks themthrough how to self assess for
these 18 fitness factors. Now,what are the how do I evaluate

(01:34:36):
myself? What are the strategiesthat I can do to start improving
those things? The thyroidrecovery blueprint is on the
website. They can do that ifthey want to work with me, then
we'll have that. That'll be aone on one type of situation
where we'll take you to a morestructured, more one on one
process to help you start torecover your. Your thyroid

(01:35:00):
physiology and your health. Andthen sometime in the future,
hopefully we've got moreclinicians that think and
practice the way similar to howI do from that same model. And
so in the future, it might belike, Oh, here's Kelly. She's
practicing this model. She'slocal to you. Go see her. Here's

(01:35:20):
Jane over here. Go see her andfind the one that resonates with
you. Doesn't mean just becausethey're in the program, it's the
one for you, but find the onethat resonates with you. So
that's the that's what's comingup. I hope

Unknown (01:35:31):
Awesome. Well, congratulations again on 200
episodes. You're a wealth ofknowledge. You're an amazing and
brilliant clinician, and justthankful for you and all you do

well. Thank you, Kelly, and I'm super
appreciative that of you that wegot to meet, become friends,
that you join me in writing thethe thyroid debacle book, and
hopefully be a big Part of wherewe go from here.

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}Episode 200: Thyroid Recovery Truths: What 200 Episodes Reveal About Labs, Meds, and Real Healing