March 13, 2025 • 42 mins
Dr. Emily Kiberd discusses the innovative concept of palm cooling and its transformative effects on Hashimoto's, perimenopause, and menopause workouts with Ariel and Evie from Apex Cool Labs. This episode of the Thyroid Strong Podcast delves into the science behind palm cooling, how it can help women push harder, recover faster, break through workout plateaus, and avoid exercise-induced fatigue. Ariel and Evy explain their backgrounds, the research backing palm cooling, practical applications, and personal experiences. They also address its potential in managing hot flashes and night sweats. Tune in to discover how this tool can elevate both physical and mental health.
00:00 Introduction to Exercise Fatigue in Hashimoto's
01:15 Discovering Palm Cooling
01:48 Meet the Innovators: Apex Cool Labs
02:39 The Science Behind Palm Cooling
07:13 Real-Life Applications and Success Stories
09:59 Understanding the Mechanisms and Benefits
19:22 Palm Cooling for Autoimmune Conditions
20:00 Palm Cooling for Exercise Intolerance
22:17 Mechanism of Palm Cooling
23:42 Optimal Conditions for Palm Cooling
24:24 Practical Applications and Benefits
26:16 Personal Experiences and Recommendations
30:13 Advanced Palm Cooling Technology
34:22 Potential Health Applications for Women in menopuase
36:21 Excitement and Future of Palm Cooling
Find the Narwhals from Apex Cools Labs here.
If you are looking to lose weight with Hashimoto's, check out Thyroid Strong Elite. You get thyroid friendly workouts customized to you and personalized calories and macros to get you to the body of your dreams.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Ladies, Dr.
Emily Kiberd here.
We are going to talk about somethingtoday that no one else in the
Hashimoto's world is talking about.
It's pretty cool, actually.
If you've ever felt like you'vebeen doing everything right in your
workouts, but you're still hittingthat exercise fatigue wall, or that
exercise intolerance wall, I see you.
I've been there too.
(00:21):
You lace up your sneakers.
You grab your kettlebell.
You start your workout.
You feel completelygassed halfway through.
Your heart is pounding.
Your muscles are burning.
That wave of fatigue that feelsall too familiar starts to set in.
Or maybe it's even after your workout.
And let's get real.
When you have Hashimoto's, thatkind of exhaustion doesn't just
(00:42):
disappear after a quick rest.
It lingers.
It keeps you stuck.
It makes progress feel impossible.
What if I told you there was a way topush harder, recover Faster and actually
see the results you're going for abang and body tone, definition, muscle
(01:05):
tissue, flat tummy, all those things.
But if you actually saw those resultsand we're able to get those results
without that Hashimoto's crash.
This is where palm cooling comes in.
That's right.
I'm talking about the palm of yourhand, cooling it, not just sticking
it in a container of ice water.
(01:25):
A very specific device to cool your palm.
This is a game changer.
I've been using this for strengthtraining, for endurance training, for
recovery, especially for the Hashi ladies.
And dare I say, even for the womenin perimenopause or in menopause
that are having hot flashes.
This is a very specific, veryinteresting tool to use today.
(01:48):
I'm sitting down with the brilliantminds behind apex cool labs, the
innovators making cutting edge palmcooling technology accessible to
everyday ladies with Hashimoto's withautoimmune diseases in perimenopause
or menopause, just like us.
We are going to break down thescience behind how the cooling of
your palms can help you lift heavier.
(02:11):
How the cooling of your palmscan make you work out longer.
How the cooling of your palmscan help you break through those
frustrating workout plateaus.
Without sending your body intoa full blown Hashi flare up.
I know you've been there.
I've been there too.
So, if you're looking for a wayto train smarter And maybe harder.
(02:35):
I know I am.
This episode is for you.
Let's dive in.
Ariel and Evie, welcometo Thyroid Strong Podcast.
Excited to have you here.
We're gonna talk about somethingthat I think is new and up and
coming, maybe not in your world,but I think for the world at large.
Thank you.
We're excited to be here.
Can you guys give a littlebit of your background?
I know Ariel, you are.
(02:56):
A science PhD, researcher at heart.
Can you both give a little bit ofyour background and how you got
into this field of palm cooling?
Yeah, absolutely.
so I am a marketer by trade.
Up until recently I was thechief marketing officer for
Tracker, software platform.
(03:16):
I've been in software most of my life.
But I am truly passionate about fitness.
I like to say that, I treat life likea sport and train like an athlete so
I can stay in this game as long aspossible I really am passionate about.
Inspiring more women to startresistance training because
it's been so powerful for me.
In that quest to get stronger Idiscovered, palm cooling on a podcast.
(03:41):
Ariel happened to listen to thesame podcast and I was like,
what is this palm cooling thing?
And, and, and basically, likewent on this quest to figure out
how, how to access the potential.
And through that met aerial.
And created, apex Cool Labs with him.
And it was over a tweetYou guys met, right?
(04:01):
Yes.
Can you tell us about this tweet?
Yeah, absolutely.
So basically I, I, I listenedto this podcast and I, and I was
trying to understand how to hackthis protocol of palm cooling.
In the process I was running myhands through a bucket of water and
I made this very embarrassing video.
I think I'm wearing aBroncos, winter hat in my gym.
(04:23):
I posted it out there saying,Hey, internet, help me.
Am I doing this right?
And crickets like nobody has any answers.
Until three months later I get thisreply from Ariel, who, needs to
introduce himself but because ofhis background was hacking this in
a much smarter way and happened tobe just 45 minutes away from me.
So I drove over to Boulder andtested out this prototype in
(04:46):
his basement and was blown away.
About eight weeks later had managedto increase my pull up volume by 50%.
Thanks to this early prototype, Ariel,I think you should introduce yourself
and share a little bit about howyou got into this and the amazing,
prototype you built that led us to meet.
We like to say the first time EVand I met, she did pushups in my
(05:09):
basement, which is very on brand.
I heard about this protocol on AndrewHuber's podcast, and the results
that were being discussed justseemed very difficult to believe.
So, you know, they're talking aboutbasically first time you're trying
this on dips or pushups, you'renearly doubling your work volume.
(05:32):
It's not making you stronger,but being able to do more work.
That podcast, described results,but didn't get into the nitty
gritty of what the parameters youare, you need to do palm cooling.
So, We'll obviously get into thescience of how this works later, with
my background, I'm a PhD physicist.
(05:53):
Yes.
But I love to tinker.
I love to build.
So I went out after that podcast andfound their papers from Stanford, from Dr.
Heller's lab and started to read, what arethe parameters you need to hit to Palm?
Cool.
Correctly, and.
Found that, they're using atemperature of something you're
touching that's about 55 degrees.
(06:15):
It was pretty clear you needed somethingthat was whisking away a lot of heat.
So I went out to McGuckin's,our local hardware store.
Bought some plumbing supplies.
Put some copper pipes togetherwith a recirculating pump, got
water the right temperature.
And literally the first time I triedthis doubled my volume on bench press.
So then I started looking aroundon the internet like, well, there
(06:36):
are other people trying this.
And I happened to see Evie's tweet andthen when I noticed she wasn't that far
away, I said, why don't you come over?
She didn't know me yet.
She came over with her husband.
She and I hung out upstairs and I solderedtogether one of these very initial
prototypes for her while she was tryingout my prototype in the basement and was
(06:58):
noticing, wow, this is really working.
So she took home one of these versions.
Before we had this portabledevice that we have now, and.
After some time started torealize, hey, we get along,
maybe we should start a business.
Love it.
So great.
Over one tweet, love offitness and increasing our
recovery and volume capacity.
(07:19):
Can you explain for the people listeningwho have no idea what palm cooling is, the
basic science, as well as the benefits?
Absolutely.
Ariel, do you wanna take the science.
Yeah, so let's start high leveland drill down, when we work out,
whether that's aerobic or resistancetraining, we're going to produce heat.
(07:42):
Our muscles are about 20 to 30% efficient.
So however much energy goes intomovement, about three to four times
more gets dumped into heat in your body.
That's raising your core body temperatureand locally heating your muscles.
Heat can be inhibitory,can create fatigue.
So if we can cool down, we can coolour muscles, we can do more work.
(08:06):
The best way to cool your musclesis actually to cool your blood.
Your skin, your fascia, your muscles,fat layers, they're all good insulators.
So that heat stays within youvery, very effectively in a sense.
And when we're trying to get rid ofit, we wanna be able to cool our blood.
Turns out one of the best ways tocool your blood is to cool your palms.
(08:28):
And the reason for that,let's talk about that first.
So what's special about your palm?
So we're mammals.
Palms of our hands, souls of ourfeet and our upper cheeks and upper
face region are places where weactually have no hair on our skin.
That tissue is called glamorous tissue,and in that tissue underneath is
(08:51):
special vasculature, which is directconnections between arteries and veins.
So normally you've got arteries,go to capillaries, go back to
capillaries, go back to veins.
So there's not veryefficient exchange of blood.
But in glamorous tissue, theexchange of blood can be up to 10
times more than in other parts ofyour skin when you are cooling.
(09:15):
So in those portions of the skin, ifyou are cooling or warming, there's
just very efficient exchange of heat.
So we've all had the experience.
Something like laying in bed at night.
warm under the covers.
You put your foot outfrom under the covers.
You do that instinctivelybecause these places in your body
are basically like radiators.
(09:36):
Or if you are cold and youwalk up to a fire, what's one
of the first things you do?
You put your hands towards the fire.
You do this instinctively.
So we can get a little moreinto the science of what's
going on with cooling down, but.
That's why palm cooling, because that'sa place where you can really efficiently
(09:56):
exchange the heat through your blood.
When would I do this?
And obviously you guys shared a littlebit of increasing volume or prs, what
would be some applications of this?
Yeah, that's a great question.
So palm cooling is incredibly wellsuited to any sort of physical activity
where there is built in rest, which isoften the case when we're exercising.
(10:21):
So that can be resistancetraining in between your sets.
That can be when you're doingcardio intervals, and you're
taking that break in between.
Your intervals.
, it can also be during, competition or ifyou're playing a sport, if you are into
tennis or pickleball, which I'm learning.
, the, these are all, theseall have built-in rest, right?
(10:42):
You're gonna go take a break,grab some water, you can hold
onto something, you can cool yourpalms during that time period.
Palm cooling to be effective is,you basically, you need about 90
seconds to three minutes of cooling.
When you're taking that break.
So again, it's, really well suitedto any sort of physical activity
(11:03):
where there's that built-in rest.
It can be used, it sounds like, from acardiovascular perspective as well as
a strength hypertrophy phase as well.
Yes.
Can you give some case studies that youhave found for people who have used Apex
Schools, the Narwals, you guys call them.
I'm lucky to know herein Boulder, we have.
(11:27):
Amazing athletes just walking around,multiple Olympians, things like that.
So crazy, crazy.
Really.
A friend I know in my neighborhood whoI've known through walking my dog for
years is a world champion triathlete,and had been in the Olympics as well
for a triathlon, just an extremelystrong fit athlete who these days has.
(11:50):
A nasty autoimmune disorder thatmakes it very difficult for her to
exercise, but she has to still exercise.
So when I was first getting into thisand building some of these initial
prototypes, she liked to still rideher Peloton, but her particular.
Disorder called F M F makes it veryhard to regulate her body temperature.
(12:13):
So she was noticing that even though, herfitness was, was quite down from what it
used to be, that she just felt like shewasn't able to get the watts that she
should be able to get on her peloton.
So, rigged up a bit of a setupwith, again, copper pipes and
some tubing and a recirculatingpump on her Peloton directly.
And she was basically coolingcontinuously while riding, and it was
(12:34):
making an enormous difference for herability to still exercise at the level
she wanted to because it was helpingher regulate her temperature better.
Basically, she has things likepots, she has things like, basically
that difficulty in regulating her.
her core body temperature.
So this was really helpingher stay at a reasonable level
(12:54):
while exercising on her peloton.
Yeah.
Can you give some other examplesof, I know you work with some
climbers as well as maybe some of thefemale lifters you've worked with.
Yeah.
We work with power lifters.
We also work with CrossFitters.
We work with.
Climbers I'm trying tothink of, we hockey players.
(13:15):
Oh, for sure.
Hockey players.
Hockey's been a big one.
Yeah.
It's really interesting.
In hockey, I didn't realizethis until recently, that hockey
players are wearing upwards of40 pounds of gear while skating.
Very for long periods of time.
So that heat, obviously that Arielwas talking about, not only is that
trapped by our muscles and skin,but then trapped by that gear.
(13:37):
So another great application ifyou are wearing heavy gear and
need to cool during your sport.
That's also an application.
But yeah, definitely see a lot of,we have a lot of women who are.
pushing their, their numbers up.
We see, PRS practically every weekfrom the folks personal records every
week from the folks using the narwhals,which is incredibly exciting to see.
(14:00):
Yeah.
Can I know you guys love research.
Can you share some of thelab out of Stanford had found
with using palm cooling?
Yeah, absolutely.
there was actually a coupleof studies out of there.
Arrow, do you wanna take this one?
Sure.
So one of the initial studiesthey did was with aerobic.
(14:20):
So they basically had people walk ina hot room, over a hundred degrees
on an incline treadmill till theybasically said, I can't walk any longer.
And then they cooled them.
I don't remember exactly how long, butI think it was in that sort of three,
four minute range with palm cooling.
And then they'd see how muchlonger they could go, and
usually they could go somewherebetween 20 and 30 minutes longer.
(14:42):
After that sort of point of exhaustion.
So that was one of those first pieceof evidence they had that said, this is
really helping out, because that was thatpiece, that's that core body temperature.
So helping bring your core bodytemperature back down also,
it's well understood that.
Heart rate is well correlatedto core body temperatures.
So palm cooling has been well shownto help with heart rate recovery and
(15:05):
especially with the hockey coaches.
We've worked with the strengthand conditioning hockey coaches.
They've seen this with heart ratemonitors, people doing skating
that, really helps bring thatheart rate back down quickly.
So that's why it's so nicefor interval type training.
Then one of the next big studiesthat Stanford put out was on.
resistive training, and it talkedabout two main things, pull-ups
(15:30):
and bench press that they showed.
So they were trying to showboth for work volume and for
true just strength increases.
So for that study, what they did wasthey did about an eight week study
for the pull-ups where they had peopledoing, A set of pull-ups tell near
failure cooling for about three minutes.
(15:51):
Set of pull-ups tell near failure.
And most people in that study aboutdoubled their work volume in eight weeks.
They had one crazy outlier they oftenquote, which was doing over 600 pull-ups
in an hour, but that's an outlier.
So most of the people were doing, ifthey could do about 60 pull-ups in,
in that full hour, they were doingabout 120 at the end of the study.
(16:13):
Then they also had a benchpress study where they were
doing a pyramid type workout.
And what they did in that, the studydesign was, they did about, these were
trained lifters, so they was, therewere people who could bench about 2
25 and for the first four weeks theyhad 'em doing this pyramid without
palm cooling, rest in between.
And that was, again, three minutes rest.
(16:34):
It was about a, a six.
Set pyramid going up to a top set.
And if you finish the whole pyramid,the next week or the next session,
you added five pounds to each set.
So what they showed in that was firstfour weeks, no cooling protocol,
next six weeks, cooling protocol.
(16:54):
And what they noticed wasabout basically no gains basic
plateau in the first four weeks.
And then, then in the next sixweeks, they had an average of 20%.
Strength gain.
So top one rep max going up byabout 20% in that six weeks.
That's one of the initial things I tried.
(17:15):
So I'm 45 now, I guessI was 44 at the time.
I tried this same thing with my initialprototype and saw similar gains.
Basically I'd never been able to bench 225 in my life and was able to bench over
2 25 using that same pyramid protocol.
Yeah, amazing.
Not only does it help increasework volume, does it help with any
sort of recovery in terms of dos,delayed onset muscle soreness?
(17:40):
Yeah, that's a great question.
And it, it has definitely been discussedin, some of the conversations around
palm cooling, but it hasn't, thereisn't necessarily one study on delayed
onset muscle soreness that has,that we have, that we're aware of.
We have personally experienced a reductionin DOMS from this work, especially
in the cases where you're workingon muscle endurance in the pushups
(18:04):
or pullups or dips use case where.
This morning I did seven sets of maxrep pushups and I've been doing this
now week over week, and you wouldexpect to not be able to move your
arms or lift your arms the next day.
And I, I just don't have that.
I do have some soreness, but noton par with what I normally feel.
I know Ariel, you've hada similar experience.
(18:25):
Yeah.
And we should note, so there is not,for the muscular endurance piece,
there's a well understood mechanism.
the reduction in DOMS has beenreported anecdotally by many people.
It's been discussed onthat huberman Lab podcast.
We were looking in the literature andthey don't specifically discuss this,
but even on that podcast, the Stanfordresearchers say that mechanism is not well
(18:48):
understood why this would reduce doms.
But one thing we've certainlynoticed in terms of protocol is.
It works especially well if you do alonger session of cooling at the very end.
So what I'll normally do, if I'm gonnado some long muscular endurance, many
sets, something like pull-ups or, orsome other resistive exercise, then at
(19:08):
the very end I may do five, six, evenseven minutes of cooling at the very end.
And that seems to have a really niceeffect on the reduction of doms.
But that's something that,again, the mechanism is just
not that well understood.
Yeah, let's bring it to this audience.
So this audience is autoimmune Women, theyoften experience exercise intolerance.
(19:30):
Part of exercise intolerance not onlyis fatiguing quickly, not wanting to get
our heart rate up too high, but also.
What we mentioned before, which is POTSis feeling like you're gonna faint.
Oftentimes these womenhave low blood pressure.
Is there, is there an application ofpalm cooling for this audience of women
with autoimmune conditions who havea hard time maintaining their muscle
(19:51):
mass, but need to lift weights tomaintain it, but then also struggle with
this balance of exercise intolerance.
Yeah, absolutely.
I think there's a, a very clearuse case for palm cooling, as a
treatment for exercise intolerance.
And so there is a, a study,it's not peer reviewed.
It, was a, a poster presentation, butthat it looked at, and this is, this
(20:15):
is different, but it's interestingbecause it was, it was looking
at, the impact of palm cooling on.
Exercise tolerance in obese women.
And what they found was thatcooling enabled these women to do
to, to, to work out more and bemore comfortable, basically kind
(20:35):
of regulate some of that thermaldiscomfort is how they talked about it.
So just that heat that it starts toprevent, your ability to work out and,
and the women who went, who used palmcooling saw much better gains in, in terms
of improvements in their blood pressure.
In their resting heart rate,in their waist circumference.
in their aerobic capacity, basically, theywere able to do more work and get more
(20:58):
benefit from the work they were able todo than the women who were not cooling.
So I think this is a great, again,more research is needed, but this seems
like a really great application foranybody who is suffering from exercise
intolerance, where that heat just reallybecomes prohibitive and you can't do
the volume of work that you need todo to build or maintain muscle mass.
(21:19):
that is tremendous to be able toallow someone to pick up a weight.
They may be already scared of it, but theyknow they need to maintain their muscle
and then to give them a tool that is.
Really simple to access.
They don't have to like change theirclothes and jump in a cold PL or anything
like that to then be able to increasetheir capacity and start to see progress.
(21:42):
Cuz I think a lot of times women,when they do have that exercise
intolerance, it's very Defeating.
They don't wanna exercise again.
They're may be scared ofhaving like a drop attack.
So really tremendous application.
I'm gonna ask some questions that I thinkmight come to the listener's mind that
I would love for you guys to debunk.
So for example, Ariel, when youwere like, yeah, when I was first
(22:04):
starting, I was switching my hands ina bucket of cold water with some ice.
Why can't someone just put their handsin ice, like in a bucket of ice with some
water to potentially get the same effect?
the big deal is, like we said,you've got these connections between
arteries and veins, your arterialvenous anastomosis as they're called,
(22:27):
what those that are there for.
They really serve two purposes, right?
They're radiators, but also if you thinkabout it, look, they're in the palms of
your hands and the souls of your feet.
They're where the arteries andveins turn around, and those big
connections are sort of muscular.
They can open or close, and whatthat allows your body to do is
(22:48):
when you are very, very cold,you know that your extremities.
Get colder first.
The way your body does thatis it shunts the blood.
It squeezes those, thoseconnections down and stops blood
from flowing to your extremities.
That's the way, that's themechanism it uses to cons control
(23:09):
blood flow to your extremities.
So if you put your hands in ice water,those connections will squeeze down
the, what we call vasoconstrict,and then you'll no longer get
blood flow through your hands.
In that same way, so then you'renot exchanging the heat well.
You're the blood is not getting thatcoolness to it because you're not
(23:33):
getting the blood flow through there.
If those connections are nice and wideopen, you're getting that very high
blood flow through that's allowingyou to exchange the heat well.
So the big key here, the secretsauce to palm cooling, which they
didn't talk about at first, wasthe right temperature to do it at.
Which is you need to be cool, not cold.
So different people are a littledifferent, but overall, human skin
(23:56):
basically vasoconstricts around 55degrees Peron, that's gonna be a about
the right temperature for most people.
Some people if havetolerance to going colder.
I think there are actually someathletes who, if they're big and really
are good at dumping heat, there aresome people who can go quite cold.
We've heard of one or two peoplethat literally use an ice bucket.
(24:17):
But that is very rare.
Most people, if you put your hands inice water, you're gonna vasoconstrict.
It's not gonna work.
Yeah.
Is there also a sweet spot?
I know you mentioned 90 secondsto three minutes in terms of
how long you're holding them.
all of the Stanford researchwas done at about three minutes,
and that was, we should mentionthat was with a single hand.
(24:37):
They were doing that with.
So it turns out that if you're usingboth hands, intuitively might think it's
about double the effect and it's not.
The research shows it's about 1.6
times the effect if you're using bothhands, but so you can go potentially
a little less than three minutes.
The reason Stanford shows three minutesis that, is if you look at the curve
(24:58):
of how much heat you're taking out.
You get diminishing returnsafter about three minutes.
So three minutes is getting youthe bulk of the curve, if you will,
of how much heat you're removing.
But you can go a little bit less, EVcan tell you some of the protocols
she's doing where she uses three minutesfor some exercises and less problems.
(25:19):
when I'm doing compound liftslike squatting or deadlifting.
Just like I would normally withoutpalm cooling, I want that longer rest.
So three minutes is great when Iam getting later into my workout
and both time constraints as wellas, upper body muscles are smaller.
(25:40):
I would imagine less heat and aerial cancorrect me, but, I'll reduce that rest
to maybe two or two and a half minutes.
I, I have found even 90 secondsworking for me when I am doing interval
training, so that's really nice.
If you're trying something likea 32nd sprint, 92nd rest, which
is a lovely, one to three.
Work grasp ratio, which is fantastic.
(26:03):
that's the shortest I'll go.
within those parameters, 90 seconds tothree minutes, you are getting a benefit.
you will notice a benefit and Ithink it's something too that's
personal and you need to figure outwhat feels, what feels right to you.
Yeah.
And I'll circle back to one piecethat you were talking about with
exercise intolerance from justa psychological point of view.
(26:24):
One of the things that people reportto us all the time is this sort of
what you might refer to as a first setfeeling where you, you go into a set
and you feel fresh for the next set.
And that may be a combination of both.
One of the removal of some ofthe heat from your muscles, but
also that heart rate recovery.
You're just feelingfresher for the next set.
(26:45):
So if you have some of that exerciseintolerance, if it just doesn't
feel worn out, For that next set,you're gonna keep that motivation.
So I think there is that,that psychological piece too,
of just how you're feelingfor that next set each night.
Can you speak to application, so togive women a visual, are you palm
(27:07):
cooling between every set or is itafter a circuit moving onto your
next circuit, how do you guys find itto be most efficient and effective?
Yeah, I typically will not be coolingas I'm doing my warmup sets, you want
the body to get a little bit warmand get ready for physical activity.
I will typically start coolingas I'm either approaching
(27:30):
or starting my working sets.
So those sets that are at that targetweight I'm aiming for in the day.
so that's, if I'm weightlifting,if I'm doing a circuit.
going from maybe box jumps to kettle bellswings to pushups or something like that.
What I like to do is constructit in such a way that I get a two
(27:51):
minute rest between, between rounds.
And it's exactly what Ariel said.
It's this first round feelingevery time you just come back and
you can put so much more effortinto it and you don't feel this.
I gotta take a break and then,my next set of pedal, bell
swings, or something like that.
it really fits in nicely, in, in most,in, in most of the ways that you are
going to construct your fitness program.
(28:15):
I love that.
So very cool experience.
Um, Ariel, what were you gonna say?
Well, I, I was gonna say, you know, Ithink if you're doing something like
Imam m it's not a great fit, right?
Because you just don't havequite enough rest in that.
In that little bit to geta good effect from it.
So, you know, if you're doing kettlebellswings, Imam, you'd go, oh, you know, I've
(28:36):
got 20 seconds maybe before my next set.
That's just not quite a great fit.
But I, I personally, you know, if I'm justdoing, I, I really enjoy high volume stuff
now, I'm gonna just do a bunch of setsof shoulder press, something like that.
I'm basically cooling betweenevery single set or I really
like these for the climbing gym.
(28:56):
So if.
You do something like going anddoing a climbing route after maybe
my first climbing route, where again,I feel warmed up after that, I'm
basically using them between each one.
Cause you're really getting thatintense burn, that intense pump.
It's really great for that, forfeeling fresh for your next climb.
Huberman spoke to having an open palm.
(29:17):
Right?
And so I think the one out of Stanfordis like this big machine with tubes and
this mit and it's like cumbersome, right?
You're not necessarily takingthat to the climbing gym.
Is there a difference between thiskind of open palm versus a slight
closed palm where you're holdingthe copper piping of the narwhal?
(29:38):
Yes.
So what you need to be carefulof is, One thing we try to make
very clear to any users of ourdevice is you just need to hold.
You don't need to grip,you don't need to squeeze.
If you squeeze, you BA are constrict.
Same, same idea.
So Stanford does this open palm ontheir device for I think two reasons,
(29:59):
just trying to get good surface areaand yeah, you're making sure then
that people are not gripping, butbasically if you just pick up the
narwhals and you're making good thermalcontact and you're not squeezing them.
You're fine.
There's, there's no problem with that.
So it's a great question.
Can you speak to the copper pipingbecause I, when we met in person, in
terms of not only cooling the palm, butpulling the heat away from the palm in
(30:22):
terms of the design of the copper piping.
Yeah.
So what you see out there is a lotof what I'll call misinformation.
So it's, there's two basic parameters.
Well, we'll say there's threebasic parameters you want to
hit for good palm cooling.
And this is, I think one of the reasonswhy there's a lot of skepticism is
(30:43):
if you don't hit those parameters,it doesn't really work very well.
So you need the right surface temperature.
So that's one thing.
So you're not, valves areconstricting and it's cool enough
that you're exchanging heat.
Well, you need to be holding somethingwith good thermal conductivity.
And so what we mean by that is, Theexperiment I like to have people
do is go to your refrigerator.
(31:03):
If you open your refrigerator, everythingin there should be the same temperature,
but try touching different surfaces.
If you touch the walls ofthe fridge, they're plastic.
Try touching maybe something that'splastic, glass bottle in your fridge, and
then try touching an aluminum bottle eventhough they're all the same temperature.
Different items are gonna feelcolder, and a part of that is
(31:25):
their thermal conductivity.
So the more heat that's flowingfrom your hand, the colder an
object's gonna feel, right?
It's why we make a sauna out of wood.
Wood does not have a very goodthermal conductivity, so you can
sit on that and it's not flowinga lot of heat into you, right?
So, You need something withgood thermal conductivity.
So you even hear huberman talkedabout grabbing a cold glass of water.
(31:49):
That is not gonna work very well becauseglass has a poor thermal conductivity.
So even though it feels at the righttemperature, it's not gonna be drawing,
allowing the heat to flow from yourhand very effectively, cuz it doesn't
have a good thermal conductivity.
And the next thing, which is a littlemore subtle, but if you've done some
cold plunging, you know about, thisis what we call a thermal barrier.
If you get in a cold plunge and stayvery still, It's not so bad, right?
(32:14):
Because you get a thermal barrier,you get the water right near your
skin, warming up, and then youhave a bit of an insulating layer.
But if you kind of agitate right,or you get in a cold shower, it's
very different because the, the coldis continually washing over you.
So you need some sort ofmechanism where the cold is
being whisked away, if you will.
(32:35):
So in the Stanford device called the Coolmit, they have a cold water loop that's
being recirculated through that mit.
In my original very thing I madethat every tried it was some copper
pipes with the recirculating pumpwhere we have water running through.
And what we're using in the narwhals isthis amazing technology called heat pipes.
Heat pipes you can find in your computer,you can find, find in your phone.
(32:59):
They're a passive device with nomoving parts that whis away heat.
I'll try to make the simple explanation.
They're a hollow copper tube that'sclosed at both end and inside
there's a little bit of water.
And the copper tube that's hollowhas been pulled down to a vacuum.
So we know here in boulder waterboils at a lower temperature.
(33:21):
We're at a higheraltitude, lower pressure.
If you keep bringing thatpressure down, water will boil
at a lower and lower temperature.
So with something like a heat pipe,because of the water in there under
vacuum, your hand is warm enoughto evaporate the water in there.
So in that heat pipe, youhold it, it's warm enough to
(33:42):
evaporate the water that's inside.
That water moves as a vapor hitsinside the narwhal drops its heat.
And then there's a wickingstructure on the walls.
So by capillary action, thewater goes back up, the walls re
evaporates, moves as a vapor hits,and so it's a no moving parts heat
pump, it's a completely closed loop.
(34:02):
Heat pump and copper pipes likethat, what we call heat pipes, have
about a hundred times the thermalconductivity of a normal piece of copper.
So they're extremely good at moving theheat away from your hand continuously.
I love the nuances and the thoughtput into your narwhal device.
It is like next level.
I love it.
(34:22):
other than exercise intoleranceas well as building volume,
potentially decreasing doms, canyou, share any other applications
in particular or for women's health?
Cuz basically everyone listeningto this podcast is a woman with an
autoimmune condition, any specific palmcooling applications just for women.
Struggling with their health andthose health conditions can be vast.
(34:45):
Absolutely.
I think one area that we're really excitedabout, but that has not been studied, so
we would love to partner with folks to dothis and understand it, is the application
of palm cooling for hot flashes.
So something that we all will.
Potentially experience in our lives.
your core body temperatureis increasing, That creates a
(35:08):
very uncomfortable condition.
It can happen during the day.
It can happen at night and night sweatsand be very, just very disturbing.
And we think that palm coolinghas a potential, it makes
sense that it could reduce the.
The severity of hot flashsymptoms as well as night sweats.
And I think what's really interestingtoo about the narwhals and why we
(35:29):
would love to test this out if thereare women who are suffering from hot
flashes is because the way that Arielbuilt the narwhal it, if you're not
touching the device, it's not reallylosing its cooling power, if you will.
It's a very, very insulated thermal.
Reservoir.
And so if you're not touching it andputting your heat into the, into the heat
(35:50):
pipes, into the device, it stays cool.
So you could fill these up at night,before you go to bed, put them by
on your nightstand and if you arewaking up with a, a night sweat,
grab them and potentially reduce the,the severity of that night sweat.
So I think both for hot flashes and,and night sweats, it's a, there's
something that we would love to diginto a little bit more there For sure.
(36:13):
Yeah.
And the nice sweats are typically fromwomen going through perimenopause or
menopause, which basically every woman onthe planet's eventually gonna go through.
why are you guys soexcited about palm cooling?
you guys connected over this,funny sweet tweet and I think the
application is tremendous and theresearch is just starting, right?
(36:35):
It'll be so, it would be so greatif there was like palm cooling
in menopause and double blindrandomized control studies on that.
But, why are you guys soexcited about palm cooling?
fundamentally, I foundfitness later in life.
I used to smoke a pack a day.
I used to drink too much.
And about 10, 12 years ago, discoveredthis amazing world of fitness and
(36:57):
just threw myself, into it and.
Not only, what was really amazingto me was that the stronger
that I got physically, thestronger I got emotionally, the
stronger I got professionally.
I just, it like totally changed my life.
Fitness completely changed my life.
I became so much more confident and.
I was like, I want more womento, to experience this, uh,
(37:20):
truly game changing for me.
And in that journey, I'm now 42 and Idon't think I'm anywhere close to my
potential, and I don't think most peoplein their forties or fifties or sixties,
I think the, the definition of what.
Is possible for a, a human to dophysically has, we're not even close.
(37:41):
Right?
And so I, whether it's, for a long timeit was just how, how can I learn more
about fitness and nutrition and justget myself into this amazing place?
How can I inspire others to notbe afraid of these heavy weights,
to not be afraid of a squat rack?
the, these types of thingsare just super exciting to me.
And then to discover.
That there are protocols, there aremechanisms that are natural and safe
(38:03):
that I can use to get even stronger.
It was like, sign me up.
and to me that is probably, it's just themost exciting thing about palm cooling
is this, we don't know just how far.
Human performance can go.
We don't know how strong wecan be in our later years.
And I think that everybodyhas the potential to live
(38:25):
this incredible, strong life.
Palm Cool can help liketake it up a notch.
Yeah, so that's what I'm so excited about.
And I know Ariel, you share thatsame excitement, but I think you
have your own spin on that too.
Yeah.
I think for me, one thing's veryinteresting is, There's a big theme of
thermal regulation that's been comingout there as a big lever to pull in
(38:49):
the health and fitness world, right?
I'm 45, and I think as you grit older, ifyou're into fitness and into optimizing
your health, you're looking for differentlevers to pull, oh, my nutrition, oh my
sleep, all these different things, and.
Whether it's just from podcasts, makingit popular, thermal regulation's been
a big one right where you go, oh, whenwe stress your thermal regulation,
(39:12):
be it with cold exposure for uppingyour dopamine, being it for the health
benefits of heat exposure in as sauna.
This is a big emerging theme thatI think a lot of people who are
interested in their health, it's,it's this nice lever you can pull that
has clear, benefits in many places.
So palm cooling falls into that realm.
And just like Evie said, I thinkthat's that safety and natural aspect.
(39:34):
Because yeah, as you getolder, you could go pull some
levers, which are nasty, right?
You could go, oh, I'm gonna take steroids.
Oh, I'm gonna go takehuman growth hormone.
But there's a lot of us that have nointerest in doing those things, right.
What we'd rather do is whatare things I can do that are
natural, that are safe, that arecompletely zero consequence, right?
So Palm Cooling's one of these thingswhere there's no downside to it.
(39:57):
You can't hurt yourself by palm cooling.
So it, it has that side of it that's like,wow, this is something I can just do.
I can leverage this naturalpiece of my physiology and do
better in my fitness goals.
So, That's very exciting.
I also, from a very personal take,this literally started completely as a
(40:19):
passion project and was just, I like tobuild, I like to tinker and r finding
out and realizing these differenttechnologies I could use to actually
make some portable device you actuallycould take to the gym and works.
So that's very, very satisfying and.
we literally had narwhals being used byN H L teams in the Stanley Cup playoffs.
(40:40):
That's kind of cool.
From a year ago, I was in my basementwhacking together plumbing parts to, a few
weeks ago there were literally world-classathletes using this in their competition.
That's just a really neat feeling.
When you talk about levers topull is this idea of mindset.
When women are, especially for women firstgetting into exercise first, getting into
(41:02):
picking up a weight, it can be very scary.
They worry about injury, they worryabout if they have an autoimmune
condition, creating a flareup, andthen to give them this tool to.
Really shift that mindset ofa fixed mindset or one that is
fearful to, one that is of growthand really elevating their health.
(41:25):
So, cuz I know when I am hot andsweaty and I'm like, oh God, I
do not wanna do this next set,like there's a potential tool to.
Shift that mindset versus I think aswomen who push, push, push, we think we
just have to from a mindset perspective,push some more to get the volume
or hit the pr, get our next set in.
(41:45):
And I think it's, not only creatingphysical transformation, but
also this mindset transformation.
thank you guys so much.
Where can people find you?
Where can people find the company andwhere can people find the normals?
Yeah, we are@apexcoollabs.com.
We are on Instagram Apex.
(42:05):
Cool Labs as well.
We are on YouTube, Twitter, and alwayshappy to answer direct questions to, if
you wanna talk to us, you can DM us onany of those channels and we'd be happy
to answer answer questions as well.
Yeah, and it is, you guys,you guys are the company.
Yes.
Yeah.
When you TM us, you talk to us.
(42:25):
I love
It's funny we had some people,early on, oh, can we talk to a rep?
You're talking to him.
Amazing.
Thank you guys much.
Such important work to put oninto the world, not only for
physical transformation, butalso for that mental component.
Thank you.
Ladies, Dr.
Emily Kiberd here.
We are going to talk about somethingtoday that no one else in the
Hashimoto's world is talking about.
It's pretty cool, actually.
If you've ever felt like you'vebeen doing everything right in your
workouts, but you're still hittingthat exercise fatigue wall, or that
exercise intolerance wall, I see you.
I've been there too.
(00:21):
You lace up your sneakers.
You grab your kettlebell.
You start your workout.
You feel completelygassed halfway through.
Your heart is pounding.
Your muscles are burning.
That wave of fatigue that feelsall too familiar starts to set in.
Or maybe it's even after your workout.
And let's get real.
When you have Hashimoto's, thatkind of exhaustion doesn't just
(00:42):
disappear after a quick rest.
It lingers.
It keeps you stuck.
It makes progress feel impossible.
What if I told you there was a way topush harder, recover Faster and actually
see the results you're going for abang and body tone, definition, muscle
(01:05):
tissue, flat tummy, all those things.
But if you actually saw those resultsand we're able to get those results
without that Hashimoto's crash.
This is where palm cooling comes in.
That's right.
I'm talking about the palm of yourhand, cooling it, not just sticking
it in a container of ice water.
(01:25):
A very specific device to cool your palm.
This is a game changer.
I've been using this for strengthtraining, for endurance training, for
recovery, especially for the Hashi ladies.
And dare I say, even for the womenin perimenopause or in menopause
that are having hot flashes.
This is a very specific, veryinteresting tool to use today.
(01:48):
I'm sitting down with the brilliantminds behind apex cool labs, the
innovators making cutting edge palmcooling technology accessible to
everyday ladies with Hashimoto's withautoimmune diseases in perimenopause
or menopause, just like us.
We are going to break down thescience behind how the cooling of
your palms can help you lift heavier.
(02:11):
How the cooling of your palmscan make you work out longer.
How the cooling of your palmscan help you break through those
frustrating workout plateaus.
Without sending your body intoa full blown Hashi flare up.
I know you've been there.
I've been there too.
So, if you're looking for a wayto train smarter And maybe harder.
(02:35):
I know I am.
This episode is for you.
Let's dive in.
Ariel and Evie, welcometo Thyroid Strong Podcast.
Excited to have you here.
We're gonna talk about somethingthat I think is new and up and
coming, maybe not in your world,but I think for the world at large.
Thank you.
We're excited to be here.
Can you guys give a littlebit of your background?
I know Ariel, you are.
(02:56):
A science PhD, researcher at heart.
Can you both give a little bit ofyour background and how you got
into this field of palm cooling?
Yeah, absolutely.
so I am a marketer by trade.
Up until recently I was thechief marketing officer for
Tracker, software platform.
(03:16):
I've been in software most of my life.
But I am truly passionate about fitness.
I like to say that, I treat life likea sport and train like an athlete so
I can stay in this game as long aspossible I really am passionate about.
Inspiring more women to startresistance training because
it's been so powerful for me.
In that quest to get stronger Idiscovered, palm cooling on a podcast.
(03:41):
Ariel happened to listen to thesame podcast and I was like,
what is this palm cooling thing?
And, and, and basically, likewent on this quest to figure out
how, how to access the potential.
And through that met aerial.
And created, apex Cool Labs with him.
And it was over a tweetYou guys met, right?
(04:01):
Yes.
Can you tell us about this tweet?
Yeah, absolutely.
So basically I, I, I listenedto this podcast and I, and I was
trying to understand how to hackthis protocol of palm cooling.
In the process I was running myhands through a bucket of water and
I made this very embarrassing video.
I think I'm wearing aBroncos, winter hat in my gym.
(04:23):
I posted it out there saying,Hey, internet, help me.
Am I doing this right?
And crickets like nobody has any answers.
Until three months later I get thisreply from Ariel, who, needs to
introduce himself but because ofhis background was hacking this in
a much smarter way and happened tobe just 45 minutes away from me.
So I drove over to Boulder andtested out this prototype in
(04:46):
his basement and was blown away.
About eight weeks later had managedto increase my pull up volume by 50%.
Thanks to this early prototype, Ariel,I think you should introduce yourself
and share a little bit about howyou got into this and the amazing,
prototype you built that led us to meet.
We like to say the first time EVand I met, she did pushups in my
(05:09):
basement, which is very on brand.
I heard about this protocol on AndrewHuber's podcast, and the results
that were being discussed justseemed very difficult to believe.
So, you know, they're talking aboutbasically first time you're trying
this on dips or pushups, you'renearly doubling your work volume.
(05:32):
It's not making you stronger,but being able to do more work.
That podcast, described results,but didn't get into the nitty
gritty of what the parameters youare, you need to do palm cooling.
So, We'll obviously get into thescience of how this works later, with
my background, I'm a PhD physicist.
(05:53):
Yes.
But I love to tinker.
I love to build.
So I went out after that podcast andfound their papers from Stanford, from Dr.
Heller's lab and started to read, what arethe parameters you need to hit to Palm?
Cool.
Correctly, and.
Found that, they're using atemperature of something you're
touching that's about 55 degrees.
(06:15):
It was pretty clear you needed somethingthat was whisking away a lot of heat.
So I went out to McGuckin's,our local hardware store.
Bought some plumbing supplies.
Put some copper pipes togetherwith a recirculating pump, got
water the right temperature.
And literally the first time I triedthis doubled my volume on bench press.
So then I started looking aroundon the internet like, well, there
(06:36):
are other people trying this.
And I happened to see Evie's tweet andthen when I noticed she wasn't that far
away, I said, why don't you come over?
She didn't know me yet.
She came over with her husband.
She and I hung out upstairs and I solderedtogether one of these very initial
prototypes for her while she was tryingout my prototype in the basement and was
(06:58):
noticing, wow, this is really working.
So she took home one of these versions.
Before we had this portabledevice that we have now, and.
After some time started torealize, hey, we get along,
maybe we should start a business.
Love it.
So great.
Over one tweet, love offitness and increasing our
recovery and volume capacity.
(07:19):
Can you explain for the people listeningwho have no idea what palm cooling is, the
basic science, as well as the benefits?
Absolutely.
Ariel, do you wanna take the science.
Yeah, so let's start high leveland drill down, when we work out,
whether that's aerobic or resistancetraining, we're going to produce heat.
(07:42):
Our muscles are about 20 to 30% efficient.
So however much energy goes intomovement, about three to four times
more gets dumped into heat in your body.
That's raising your core body temperatureand locally heating your muscles.
Heat can be inhibitory,can create fatigue.
So if we can cool down, we can coolour muscles, we can do more work.
(08:06):
The best way to cool your musclesis actually to cool your blood.
Your skin, your fascia, your muscles,fat layers, they're all good insulators.
So that heat stays within youvery, very effectively in a sense.
And when we're trying to get rid ofit, we wanna be able to cool our blood.
Turns out one of the best ways tocool your blood is to cool your palms.
(08:28):
And the reason for that,let's talk about that first.
So what's special about your palm?
So we're mammals.
Palms of our hands, souls of ourfeet and our upper cheeks and upper
face region are places where weactually have no hair on our skin.
That tissue is called glamorous tissue,and in that tissue underneath is
(08:51):
special vasculature, which is directconnections between arteries and veins.
So normally you've got arteries,go to capillaries, go back to
capillaries, go back to veins.
So there's not veryefficient exchange of blood.
But in glamorous tissue, theexchange of blood can be up to 10
times more than in other parts ofyour skin when you are cooling.
(09:15):
So in those portions of the skin, ifyou are cooling or warming, there's
just very efficient exchange of heat.
So we've all had the experience.
Something like laying in bed at night.
warm under the covers.
You put your foot outfrom under the covers.
You do that instinctivelybecause these places in your body
are basically like radiators.
(09:36):
Or if you are cold and youwalk up to a fire, what's one
of the first things you do?
You put your hands towards the fire.
You do this instinctively.
So we can get a little moreinto the science of what's
going on with cooling down, but.
That's why palm cooling, because that'sa place where you can really efficiently
(09:56):
exchange the heat through your blood.
When would I do this?
And obviously you guys shared a littlebit of increasing volume or prs, what
would be some applications of this?
Yeah, that's a great question.
So palm cooling is incredibly wellsuited to any sort of physical activity
where there is built in rest, which isoften the case when we're exercising.
(10:21):
So that can be resistancetraining in between your sets.
That can be when you're doingcardio intervals, and you're
taking that break in between.
Your intervals.
, it can also be during, competition or ifyou're playing a sport, if you are into
tennis or pickleball, which I'm learning.
, the, these are all, theseall have built-in rest, right?
(10:42):
You're gonna go take a break,grab some water, you can hold
onto something, you can cool yourpalms during that time period.
Palm cooling to be effective is,you basically, you need about 90
seconds to three minutes of cooling.
When you're taking that break.
So again, it's, really well suitedto any sort of physical activity
(11:03):
where there's that built-in rest.
It can be used, it sounds like, from acardiovascular perspective as well as
a strength hypertrophy phase as well.
Yes.
Can you give some case studies that youhave found for people who have used Apex
Schools, the Narwals, you guys call them.
I'm lucky to know herein Boulder, we have.
(11:27):
Amazing athletes just walking around,multiple Olympians, things like that.
So crazy, crazy.
Really.
A friend I know in my neighborhood whoI've known through walking my dog for
years is a world champion triathlete,and had been in the Olympics as well
for a triathlon, just an extremelystrong fit athlete who these days has.
(11:50):
A nasty autoimmune disorder thatmakes it very difficult for her to
exercise, but she has to still exercise.
So when I was first getting into thisand building some of these initial
prototypes, she liked to still rideher Peloton, but her particular.
Disorder called F M F makes it veryhard to regulate her body temperature.
(12:13):
So she was noticing that even though, herfitness was, was quite down from what it
used to be, that she just felt like shewasn't able to get the watts that she
should be able to get on her peloton.
So, rigged up a bit of a setupwith, again, copper pipes and
some tubing and a recirculatingpump on her Peloton directly.
And she was basically coolingcontinuously while riding, and it was
(12:34):
making an enormous difference for herability to still exercise at the level
she wanted to because it was helpingher regulate her temperature better.
Basically, she has things likepots, she has things like, basically
that difficulty in regulating her.
her core body temperature.
So this was really helpingher stay at a reasonable level
(12:54):
while exercising on her peloton.
Yeah.
Can you give some other examplesof, I know you work with some
climbers as well as maybe some of thefemale lifters you've worked with.
Yeah.
We work with power lifters.
We also work with CrossFitters.
We work with.
Climbers I'm trying tothink of, we hockey players.
(13:15):
Oh, for sure.
Hockey players.
Hockey's been a big one.
Yeah.
It's really interesting.
In hockey, I didn't realizethis until recently, that hockey
players are wearing upwards of40 pounds of gear while skating.
Very for long periods of time.
So that heat, obviously that Arielwas talking about, not only is that
trapped by our muscles and skin,but then trapped by that gear.
(13:37):
So another great application ifyou are wearing heavy gear and
need to cool during your sport.
That's also an application.
But yeah, definitely see a lot of,we have a lot of women who are.
pushing their, their numbers up.
We see, PRS practically every weekfrom the folks personal records every
week from the folks using the narwhals,which is incredibly exciting to see.
(14:00):
Yeah.
Can I know you guys love research.
Can you share some of thelab out of Stanford had found
with using palm cooling?
Yeah, absolutely.
there was actually a coupleof studies out of there.
Arrow, do you wanna take this one?
Sure.
So one of the initial studiesthey did was with aerobic.
(14:20):
So they basically had people walk ina hot room, over a hundred degrees
on an incline treadmill till theybasically said, I can't walk any longer.
And then they cooled them.
I don't remember exactly how long, butI think it was in that sort of three,
four minute range with palm cooling.
And then they'd see how muchlonger they could go, and
usually they could go somewherebetween 20 and 30 minutes longer.
(14:42):
After that sort of point of exhaustion.
So that was one of those first pieceof evidence they had that said, this is
really helping out, because that was thatpiece, that's that core body temperature.
So helping bring your core bodytemperature back down also,
it's well understood that.
Heart rate is well correlatedto core body temperatures.
So palm cooling has been well shownto help with heart rate recovery and
(15:05):
especially with the hockey coaches.
We've worked with the strengthand conditioning hockey coaches.
They've seen this with heart ratemonitors, people doing skating
that, really helps bring thatheart rate back down quickly.
So that's why it's so nicefor interval type training.
Then one of the next big studiesthat Stanford put out was on.
resistive training, and it talkedabout two main things, pull-ups
(15:30):
and bench press that they showed.
So they were trying to showboth for work volume and for
true just strength increases.
So for that study, what they did wasthey did about an eight week study
for the pull-ups where they had peopledoing, A set of pull-ups tell near
failure cooling for about three minutes.
(15:51):
Set of pull-ups tell near failure.
And most people in that study aboutdoubled their work volume in eight weeks.
They had one crazy outlier they oftenquote, which was doing over 600 pull-ups
in an hour, but that's an outlier.
So most of the people were doing, ifthey could do about 60 pull-ups in,
in that full hour, they were doingabout 120 at the end of the study.
(16:13):
Then they also had a benchpress study where they were
doing a pyramid type workout.
And what they did in that, the studydesign was, they did about, these were
trained lifters, so they was, therewere people who could bench about 2
25 and for the first four weeks theyhad 'em doing this pyramid without
palm cooling, rest in between.
And that was, again, three minutes rest.
(16:34):
It was about a, a six.
Set pyramid going up to a top set.
And if you finish the whole pyramid,the next week or the next session,
you added five pounds to each set.
So what they showed in that was firstfour weeks, no cooling protocol,
next six weeks, cooling protocol.
(16:54):
And what they noticed wasabout basically no gains basic
plateau in the first four weeks.
And then, then in the next sixweeks, they had an average of 20%.
Strength gain.
So top one rep max going up byabout 20% in that six weeks.
That's one of the initial things I tried.
(17:15):
So I'm 45 now, I guessI was 44 at the time.
I tried this same thing with my initialprototype and saw similar gains.
Basically I'd never been able to bench 225 in my life and was able to bench over
2 25 using that same pyramid protocol.
Yeah, amazing.
Not only does it help increasework volume, does it help with any
sort of recovery in terms of dos,delayed onset muscle soreness?
(17:40):
Yeah, that's a great question.
And it, it has definitely been discussedin, some of the conversations around
palm cooling, but it hasn't, thereisn't necessarily one study on delayed
onset muscle soreness that has,that we have, that we're aware of.
We have personally experienced a reductionin DOMS from this work, especially
in the cases where you're workingon muscle endurance in the pushups
(18:04):
or pullups or dips use case where.
This morning I did seven sets of maxrep pushups and I've been doing this
now week over week, and you wouldexpect to not be able to move your
arms or lift your arms the next day.
And I, I just don't have that.
I do have some soreness, but noton par with what I normally feel.
I know Ariel, you've hada similar experience.
(18:25):
Yeah.
And we should note, so there is not,for the muscular endurance piece,
there's a well understood mechanism.
the reduction in DOMS has beenreported anecdotally by many people.
It's been discussed onthat huberman Lab podcast.
We were looking in the literature andthey don't specifically discuss this,
but even on that podcast, the Stanfordresearchers say that mechanism is not well
(18:48):
understood why this would reduce doms.
But one thing we've certainlynoticed in terms of protocol is.
It works especially well if you do alonger session of cooling at the very end.
So what I'll normally do, if I'm gonnado some long muscular endurance, many
sets, something like pull-ups or, orsome other resistive exercise, then at
(19:08):
the very end I may do five, six, evenseven minutes of cooling at the very end.
And that seems to have a really niceeffect on the reduction of doms.
But that's something that,again, the mechanism is just
not that well understood.
Yeah, let's bring it to this audience.
So this audience is autoimmune Women, theyoften experience exercise intolerance.
(19:30):
Part of exercise intolerance not onlyis fatiguing quickly, not wanting to get
our heart rate up too high, but also.
What we mentioned before, which is POTSis feeling like you're gonna faint.
Oftentimes these womenhave low blood pressure.
Is there, is there an application ofpalm cooling for this audience of women
with autoimmune conditions who havea hard time maintaining their muscle
(19:51):
mass, but need to lift weights tomaintain it, but then also struggle with
this balance of exercise intolerance.
Yeah, absolutely.
I think there's a, a very clearuse case for palm cooling, as a
treatment for exercise intolerance.
And so there is a, a study,it's not peer reviewed.
It, was a, a poster presentation, butthat it looked at, and this is, this
(20:15):
is different, but it's interestingbecause it was, it was looking
at, the impact of palm cooling on.
Exercise tolerance in obese women.
And what they found was thatcooling enabled these women to do
to, to, to work out more and bemore comfortable, basically kind
(20:35):
of regulate some of that thermaldiscomfort is how they talked about it.
So just that heat that it starts toprevent, your ability to work out and,
and the women who went, who used palmcooling saw much better gains in, in terms
of improvements in their blood pressure.
In their resting heart rate,in their waist circumference.
in their aerobic capacity, basically, theywere able to do more work and get more
(20:58):
benefit from the work they were able todo than the women who were not cooling.
So I think this is a great, again,more research is needed, but this seems
like a really great application foranybody who is suffering from exercise
intolerance, where that heat just reallybecomes prohibitive and you can't do
the volume of work that you need todo to build or maintain muscle mass.
(21:19):
that is tremendous to be able toallow someone to pick up a weight.
They may be already scared of it, but theyknow they need to maintain their muscle
and then to give them a tool that is.
Really simple to access.
They don't have to like change theirclothes and jump in a cold PL or anything
like that to then be able to increasetheir capacity and start to see progress.
(21:42):
Cuz I think a lot of times women,when they do have that exercise
intolerance, it's very Defeating.
They don't wanna exercise again.
They're may be scared ofhaving like a drop attack.
So really tremendous application.
I'm gonna ask some questions that I thinkmight come to the listener's mind that
I would love for you guys to debunk.
So for example, Ariel, when youwere like, yeah, when I was first
(22:04):
starting, I was switching my hands ina bucket of cold water with some ice.
Why can't someone just put their handsin ice, like in a bucket of ice with some
water to potentially get the same effect?
the big deal is, like we said,you've got these connections between
arteries and veins, your arterialvenous anastomosis as they're called,
(22:27):
what those that are there for.
They really serve two purposes, right?
They're radiators, but also if you thinkabout it, look, they're in the palms of
your hands and the souls of your feet.
They're where the arteries andveins turn around, and those big
connections are sort of muscular.
They can open or close, and whatthat allows your body to do is
(22:48):
when you are very, very cold,you know that your extremities.
Get colder first.
The way your body does thatis it shunts the blood.
It squeezes those, thoseconnections down and stops blood
from flowing to your extremities.
That's the way, that's themechanism it uses to cons control
(23:09):
blood flow to your extremities.
So if you put your hands in ice water,those connections will squeeze down
the, what we call vasoconstrict,and then you'll no longer get
blood flow through your hands.
In that same way, so then you'renot exchanging the heat well.
You're the blood is not getting thatcoolness to it because you're not
(23:33):
getting the blood flow through there.
If those connections are nice and wideopen, you're getting that very high
blood flow through that's allowingyou to exchange the heat well.
So the big key here, the secretsauce to palm cooling, which they
didn't talk about at first, wasthe right temperature to do it at.
Which is you need to be cool, not cold.
So different people are a littledifferent, but overall, human skin
(23:56):
basically vasoconstricts around 55degrees Peron, that's gonna be a about
the right temperature for most people.
Some people if havetolerance to going colder.
I think there are actually someathletes who, if they're big and really
are good at dumping heat, there aresome people who can go quite cold.
We've heard of one or two peoplethat literally use an ice bucket.
(24:17):
But that is very rare.
Most people, if you put your hands inice water, you're gonna vasoconstrict.
It's not gonna work.
Yeah.
Is there also a sweet spot?
I know you mentioned 90 secondsto three minutes in terms of
how long you're holding them.
all of the Stanford researchwas done at about three minutes,
and that was, we should mentionthat was with a single hand.
(24:37):
They were doing that with.
So it turns out that if you're usingboth hands, intuitively might think it's
about double the effect and it's not.
The research shows it's about 1.6
times the effect if you're using bothhands, but so you can go potentially
a little less than three minutes.
The reason Stanford shows three minutesis that, is if you look at the curve
(24:58):
of how much heat you're taking out.
You get diminishing returnsafter about three minutes.
So three minutes is getting youthe bulk of the curve, if you will,
of how much heat you're removing.
But you can go a little bit less, EVcan tell you some of the protocols
she's doing where she uses three minutesfor some exercises and less problems.
(25:19):
when I'm doing compound liftslike squatting or deadlifting.
Just like I would normally withoutpalm cooling, I want that longer rest.
So three minutes is great when Iam getting later into my workout
and both time constraints as wellas, upper body muscles are smaller.
(25:40):
I would imagine less heat and aerial cancorrect me, but, I'll reduce that rest
to maybe two or two and a half minutes.
I, I have found even 90 secondsworking for me when I am doing interval
training, so that's really nice.
If you're trying something likea 32nd sprint, 92nd rest, which
is a lovely, one to three.
Work grasp ratio, which is fantastic.
(26:03):
that's the shortest I'll go.
within those parameters, 90 seconds tothree minutes, you are getting a benefit.
you will notice a benefit and Ithink it's something too that's
personal and you need to figure outwhat feels, what feels right to you.
Yeah.
And I'll circle back to one piecethat you were talking about with
exercise intolerance from justa psychological point of view.
(26:24):
One of the things that people reportto us all the time is this sort of
what you might refer to as a first setfeeling where you, you go into a set
and you feel fresh for the next set.
And that may be a combination of both.
One of the removal of some ofthe heat from your muscles, but
also that heart rate recovery.
You're just feelingfresher for the next set.
(26:45):
So if you have some of that exerciseintolerance, if it just doesn't
feel worn out, For that next set,you're gonna keep that motivation.
So I think there is that,that psychological piece too,
of just how you're feelingfor that next set each night.
Can you speak to application, so togive women a visual, are you palm
(27:07):
cooling between every set or is itafter a circuit moving onto your
next circuit, how do you guys find itto be most efficient and effective?
Yeah, I typically will not be coolingas I'm doing my warmup sets, you want
the body to get a little bit warmand get ready for physical activity.
I will typically start coolingas I'm either approaching
(27:30):
or starting my working sets.
So those sets that are at that targetweight I'm aiming for in the day.
so that's, if I'm weightlifting,if I'm doing a circuit.
going from maybe box jumps to kettle bellswings to pushups or something like that.
What I like to do is constructit in such a way that I get a two
(27:51):
minute rest between, between rounds.
And it's exactly what Ariel said.
It's this first round feelingevery time you just come back and
you can put so much more effortinto it and you don't feel this.
I gotta take a break and then,my next set of pedal, bell
swings, or something like that.
it really fits in nicely, in, in most,in, in most of the ways that you are
going to construct your fitness program.
(28:15):
I love that.
So very cool experience.
Um, Ariel, what were you gonna say?
Well, I, I was gonna say, you know, Ithink if you're doing something like
Imam m it's not a great fit, right?
Because you just don't havequite enough rest in that.
In that little bit to geta good effect from it.
So, you know, if you're doing kettlebellswings, Imam, you'd go, oh, you know, I've
(28:36):
got 20 seconds maybe before my next set.
That's just not quite a great fit.
But I, I personally, you know, if I'm justdoing, I, I really enjoy high volume stuff
now, I'm gonna just do a bunch of setsof shoulder press, something like that.
I'm basically cooling betweenevery single set or I really
like these for the climbing gym.
(28:56):
So if.
You do something like going anddoing a climbing route after maybe
my first climbing route, where again,I feel warmed up after that, I'm
basically using them between each one.
Cause you're really getting thatintense burn, that intense pump.
It's really great for that, forfeeling fresh for your next climb.
Huberman spoke to having an open palm.
(29:17):
Right?
And so I think the one out of Stanfordis like this big machine with tubes and
this mit and it's like cumbersome, right?
You're not necessarily takingthat to the climbing gym.
Is there a difference between thiskind of open palm versus a slight
closed palm where you're holdingthe copper piping of the narwhal?
(29:38):
Yes.
So what you need to be carefulof is, One thing we try to make
very clear to any users of ourdevice is you just need to hold.
You don't need to grip,you don't need to squeeze.
If you squeeze, you BA are constrict.
Same, same idea.
So Stanford does this open palm ontheir device for I think two reasons,
(29:59):
just trying to get good surface areaand yeah, you're making sure then
that people are not gripping, butbasically if you just pick up the
narwhals and you're making good thermalcontact and you're not squeezing them.
You're fine.
There's, there's no problem with that.
So it's a great question.
Can you speak to the copper pipingbecause I, when we met in person, in
terms of not only cooling the palm, butpulling the heat away from the palm in
(30:22):
terms of the design of the copper piping.
Yeah.
So what you see out there is a lotof what I'll call misinformation.
So it's, there's two basic parameters.
Well, we'll say there's threebasic parameters you want to
hit for good palm cooling.
And this is, I think one of the reasonswhy there's a lot of skepticism is
(30:43):
if you don't hit those parameters,it doesn't really work very well.
So you need the right surface temperature.
So that's one thing.
So you're not, valves areconstricting and it's cool enough
that you're exchanging heat.
Well, you need to be holding somethingwith good thermal conductivity.
And so what we mean by that is, Theexperiment I like to have people
do is go to your refrigerator.
(31:03):
If you open your refrigerator, everythingin there should be the same temperature,
but try touching different surfaces.
If you touch the walls ofthe fridge, they're plastic.
Try touching maybe something that'splastic, glass bottle in your fridge, and
then try touching an aluminum bottle eventhough they're all the same temperature.
Different items are gonna feelcolder, and a part of that is
(31:25):
their thermal conductivity.
So the more heat that's flowingfrom your hand, the colder an
object's gonna feel, right?
It's why we make a sauna out of wood.
Wood does not have a very goodthermal conductivity, so you can
sit on that and it's not flowinga lot of heat into you, right?
So, You need something withgood thermal conductivity.
So you even hear huberman talkedabout grabbing a cold glass of water.
(31:49):
That is not gonna work very well becauseglass has a poor thermal conductivity.
So even though it feels at the righttemperature, it's not gonna be drawing,
allowing the heat to flow from yourhand very effectively, cuz it doesn't
have a good thermal conductivity.
And the next thing, which is a littlemore subtle, but if you've done some
cold plunging, you know about, thisis what we call a thermal barrier.
If you get in a cold plunge and stayvery still, It's not so bad, right?
(32:14):
Because you get a thermal barrier,you get the water right near your
skin, warming up, and then youhave a bit of an insulating layer.
But if you kind of agitate right,or you get in a cold shower, it's
very different because the, the coldis continually washing over you.
So you need some sort ofmechanism where the cold is
being whisked away, if you will.
(32:35):
So in the Stanford device called the Coolmit, they have a cold water loop that's
being recirculated through that mit.
In my original very thing I madethat every tried it was some copper
pipes with the recirculating pumpwhere we have water running through.
And what we're using in the narwhals isthis amazing technology called heat pipes.
Heat pipes you can find in your computer,you can find, find in your phone.
(32:59):
They're a passive device with nomoving parts that whis away heat.
I'll try to make the simple explanation.
They're a hollow copper tube that'sclosed at both end and inside
there's a little bit of water.
And the copper tube that's hollowhas been pulled down to a vacuum.
So we know here in boulder waterboils at a lower temperature.
(33:21):
We're at a higheraltitude, lower pressure.
If you keep bringing thatpressure down, water will boil
at a lower and lower temperature.
So with something like a heat pipe,because of the water in there under
vacuum, your hand is warm enoughto evaporate the water in there.
So in that heat pipe, youhold it, it's warm enough to
(33:42):
evaporate the water that's inside.
That water moves as a vapor hitsinside the narwhal drops its heat.
And then there's a wickingstructure on the walls.
So by capillary action, thewater goes back up, the walls re
evaporates, moves as a vapor hits,and so it's a no moving parts heat
pump, it's a completely closed loop.
(34:02):
Heat pump and copper pipes likethat, what we call heat pipes, have
about a hundred times the thermalconductivity of a normal piece of copper.
So they're extremely good at moving theheat away from your hand continuously.
I love the nuances and the thoughtput into your narwhal device.
It is like next level.
I love it.
(34:22):
other than exercise intoleranceas well as building volume,
potentially decreasing doms, canyou, share any other applications
in particular or for women's health?
Cuz basically everyone listeningto this podcast is a woman with an
autoimmune condition, any specific palmcooling applications just for women.
Struggling with their health andthose health conditions can be vast.
(34:45):
Absolutely.
I think one area that we're really excitedabout, but that has not been studied, so
we would love to partner with folks to dothis and understand it, is the application
of palm cooling for hot flashes.
So something that we all will.
Potentially experience in our lives.
your core body temperatureis increasing, That creates a
(35:08):
very uncomfortable condition.
It can happen during the day.
It can happen at night and night sweatsand be very, just very disturbing.
And we think that palm coolinghas a potential, it makes
sense that it could reduce the.
The severity of hot flashsymptoms as well as night sweats.
And I think what's really interestingtoo about the narwhals and why we
(35:29):
would love to test this out if thereare women who are suffering from hot
flashes is because the way that Arielbuilt the narwhal it, if you're not
touching the device, it's not reallylosing its cooling power, if you will.
It's a very, very insulated thermal.
Reservoir.
And so if you're not touching it andputting your heat into the, into the heat
(35:50):
pipes, into the device, it stays cool.
So you could fill these up at night,before you go to bed, put them by
on your nightstand and if you arewaking up with a, a night sweat,
grab them and potentially reduce the,the severity of that night sweat.
So I think both for hot flashes and,and night sweats, it's a, there's
something that we would love to diginto a little bit more there For sure.
(36:13):
Yeah.
And the nice sweats are typically fromwomen going through perimenopause or
menopause, which basically every woman onthe planet's eventually gonna go through.
why are you guys soexcited about palm cooling?
you guys connected over this,funny sweet tweet and I think the
application is tremendous and theresearch is just starting, right?
(36:35):
It'll be so, it would be so greatif there was like palm cooling
in menopause and double blindrandomized control studies on that.
But, why are you guys soexcited about palm cooling?
fundamentally, I foundfitness later in life.
I used to smoke a pack a day.
I used to drink too much.
And about 10, 12 years ago, discoveredthis amazing world of fitness and
(36:57):
just threw myself, into it and.
Not only, what was really amazingto me was that the stronger
that I got physically, thestronger I got emotionally, the
stronger I got professionally.
I just, it like totally changed my life.
Fitness completely changed my life.
I became so much more confident and.
I was like, I want more womento, to experience this, uh,
(37:20):
truly game changing for me.
And in that journey, I'm now 42 and Idon't think I'm anywhere close to my
potential, and I don't think most peoplein their forties or fifties or sixties,
I think the, the definition of what.
Is possible for a, a human to dophysically has, we're not even close.
(37:41):
Right?
And so I, whether it's, for a long timeit was just how, how can I learn more
about fitness and nutrition and justget myself into this amazing place?
How can I inspire others to notbe afraid of these heavy weights,
to not be afraid of a squat rack?
the, these types of thingsare just super exciting to me.
And then to discover.
That there are protocols, there aremechanisms that are natural and safe
(38:03):
that I can use to get even stronger.
It was like, sign me up.
and to me that is probably, it's just themost exciting thing about palm cooling
is this, we don't know just how far.
Human performance can go.
We don't know how strong wecan be in our later years.
And I think that everybodyhas the potential to live
(38:25):
this incredible, strong life.
Palm Cool can help liketake it up a notch.
Yeah, so that's what I'm so excited about.
And I know Ariel, you share thatsame excitement, but I think you
have your own spin on that too.
Yeah.
I think for me, one thing's veryinteresting is, There's a big theme of
thermal regulation that's been comingout there as a big lever to pull in
(38:49):
the health and fitness world, right?
I'm 45, and I think as you grit older, ifyou're into fitness and into optimizing
your health, you're looking for differentlevers to pull, oh, my nutrition, oh my
sleep, all these different things, and.
Whether it's just from podcasts, makingit popular, thermal regulation's been
a big one right where you go, oh, whenwe stress your thermal regulation,
(39:12):
be it with cold exposure for uppingyour dopamine, being it for the health
benefits of heat exposure in as sauna.
This is a big emerging theme thatI think a lot of people who are
interested in their health, it's,it's this nice lever you can pull that
has clear, benefits in many places.
So palm cooling falls into that realm.
And just like Evie said, I thinkthat's that safety and natural aspect.
(39:34):
Because yeah, as you getolder, you could go pull some
levers, which are nasty, right?
You could go, oh, I'm gonna take steroids.
Oh, I'm gonna go takehuman growth hormone.
But there's a lot of us that have nointerest in doing those things, right.
What we'd rather do is whatare things I can do that are
natural, that are safe, that arecompletely zero consequence, right?
So Palm Cooling's one of these thingswhere there's no downside to it.
(39:57):
You can't hurt yourself by palm cooling.
So it, it has that side of it that's like,wow, this is something I can just do.
I can leverage this naturalpiece of my physiology and do
better in my fitness goals.
So, That's very exciting.
I also, from a very personal take,this literally started completely as a
(40:19):
passion project and was just, I like tobuild, I like to tinker and r finding
out and realizing these differenttechnologies I could use to actually
make some portable device you actuallycould take to the gym and works.
So that's very, very satisfying and.
we literally had narwhals being used byN H L teams in the Stanley Cup playoffs.
(40:40):
That's kind of cool.
From a year ago, I was in my basementwhacking together plumbing parts to, a few
weeks ago there were literally world-classathletes using this in their competition.
That's just a really neat feeling.
When you talk about levers topull is this idea of mindset.
When women are, especially for women firstgetting into exercise first, getting into
(41:02):
picking up a weight, it can be very scary.
They worry about injury, they worryabout if they have an autoimmune
condition, creating a flareup, andthen to give them this tool to.
Really shift that mindset ofa fixed mindset or one that is
fearful to, one that is of growthand really elevating their health.
(41:25):
So, cuz I know when I am hot andsweaty and I'm like, oh God, I
do not wanna do this next set,like there's a potential tool to.
Shift that mindset versus I think aswomen who push, push, push, we think we
just have to from a mindset perspective,push some more to get the volume
or hit the pr, get our next set in.
(41:45):
And I think it's, not only creatingphysical transformation, but
also this mindset transformation.
thank you guys so much.
Where can people find you?
Where can people find the company andwhere can people find the normals?
Yeah, we are@apexcoollabs.com.
We are on Instagram Apex.
(42:05):
Cool Labs as well.
We are on YouTube, Twitter, and alwayshappy to answer direct questions to, if
you wanna talk to us, you can DM us onany of those channels and we'd be happy
to answer answer questions as well.
Yeah, and it is, you guys,you guys are the company.
Yes.
Yeah.
When you TM us, you talk to us.
(42:25):
I love
It's funny we had some people,early on, oh, can we talk to a rep?
You're talking to him.
Amazing.
Thank you guys much.
Such important work to put oninto the world, not only for
physical transformation, butalso for that mental component.
Thank you.
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