June 26, 2024 • 25 mins
Here's a stat you don't hear every day: over the course of his career (so far), Adam Leishman has helped move over 1.8 billion people. Billion. With a "b." I guess that's what happens when you've worked in three of the top transit cities in the world: London, Singapore, and Hong Kong.
In his conversation with host Paul Comfort, Adam talks about Hong Kong's transit model where transit companies operate as true commercial businesses that receive no support or subsidy from the government. Adam's experience working in transit from Australia to Europe to Asia has shown him the true value of transit to society, and one of the most important things we can do is just get people out of cars and onto buses and trains.
Paul and Adam also talk about:
- How the Hong Kong system works
- Adam's global transit career
- Adam's media business started in the midst of the pandemic which is now the second largest advertising agency in Hong Kong
- Living car free for nearly 10 years
You'll also learn about Adam's approach to leadership and where he sees transit needs to go in the future if it wants to be successful over the long term. This is one of those interviews where just when you think someone couldn't say more profound things, they do. Make sure you listen all the way to the end for Adam's transit vision.
Next week we have a holiday week special! Paul appeared on the Lunch with Leon podcast recently so we're going to bring that episode to you next week. On that episode Paul talks about his book with the host and one of the book's contributors, Simon Reed.
Transit Unplugged is brought to you by Modaxo https://www.modaxo.com
- Host: Paul Comfort
- Producer: Paul Comfort
- Editor and Writer: Tris Hussey
- Executive Producer: Julie Gates
Special thanks to:
- Brand design: Tina Olagundoye
- Social Media: Tatyana Mechkarova
- Marketing content, Transit Unplugged Newsletter, & transit puns: Tris Hussey
If you have a question or comment, email us at info@transitunplugged.com.
Follow us on social media: LinkedIn - Twitter - Threads- Instagram - Facebook
Sign up for the Transit Unplugged Newsletter
00:00 Introduction to Hong Kong's Unique Transit System
00:48 Meet Adam Leishman: CEO of Bravo Holdings
01:06 Hong Kong's Public Transit: A Deep Dive
03:12 Challenges and Innovations in Hong Kong's Transit
04:10 Understanding Hong Kong's Transit Operations
06:37 Revenue Models and Media Ventures
11:00 Global Transit Insights and Future Trends
13:50 Adam's Family Legacy in Public Transport
19:36 Final Thoughts and Closing Remarks
24:26 Coming up next week on Transit Unplugged
Disclaimer: The views and opinions expressed in this program are those of the guests, and do not necessarily reflect the views or positions of Modaxo Inc., its affiliates or subsidiaries, or any entities they represent (“Modaxo”). This production belongs to Modaxo, and may contain information that may be subject to trademark, copyright, or other intellectual property rights and restrictions. This production provides general information, and should not be relied on as legal advice or opinion. Modaxo specifically disclaims all warranties, express or implied,...
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Paul Comfort (00:05):
I'm Paul Comfort, and this is Transit Unplugged, the
world's leading transit executivepodcast, now in our seventh season.
How would you like to find out allabout how a public transit system in
one of the major cities in the worldtakes no subsidy from the government?
How do they do that?
We'll tell you today howit's done with Adam Leishman.
(00:25):
Adam has a great history.
He started out in Australia, with hisgrandfather's bus company, then moved
to London where he took over TowerTransit, and then they moved into
Singapore, and now he's been in HongKong living the car free lifestyle
for over eight years now, and talksto us about how public transportation
works in three of the world'sgreat public transportation cities,
London, Singapore, and now Hong Kong.
(00:48):
He is the CEO of Bravo Holdings,which is the owner of CityBus
and Bravo Media in Hong Kong.
Nine out of 10 trips taken in the Cityof Hong Kong are taken on public transit.
His operation, one of the threecompanies that operates under
contracts with the government,transports a million passengers a day.
Today, he's going to dive into how theyoperate their 1700 buses, how the whole
(01:10):
tender system works in Hong Kong, whatwe can learn from MTR, who operates
the rail system there, and how theyoperate with transit oriented development
that helps subsidize the train system.
So many things we're going todive into today in an area of
the world which we haven't talkedmuch about here on the podcast.
Join us on this adventurousconversation on Transit Unplugged.
Now, Adam Leishman.
(01:32):
I'm excited to talk about publictransportation in Hong Kong in particular.
We've never covered thaton Transit Unplugged.
You're our first guest from there.
And so thank you againfor sharing with us.
And why don't you open us up with,tell us some about Hong Kong.
Adam Leishman (01:45):
I moved to Hong Kong about three and a half years ago in
the middle of, COVID, which was aninteresting time to change countries.
And was part of a group that purchased thesecond largest bus operator in Hong Kong.
there's two large bus operators runningthe franchise bus services in Hong Kong.
and Hong Kong is, by many measures,considered the number one public
(02:07):
transport city in the world.
nine out of every ten trips In Hong Kongoccur on public transport, which as an
Australian, and in the U S very similarto Australia, you know, having nine out
of every 10 trips on public transportis kind of a bit, hard to comprehend.
so when I moved here and I moved fromLondon, actually, I was running buses
(02:28):
in London and Singapore previously, butit was a real, you know, eye opener,
the business that I'm responsiblefor here, Citybus moves about a
million people every day on 1, 700buses, with about 5, 000 staff here.
and, you know, it's just agreat system to be a part of.
the system is very unusual to alot of the systems I've been a
(02:50):
part of previously, and that isbecause it's a commercial system.
one of the few commercially runbus systems in the world, actually,
and particularly on the back ofCOVID, I don't think there's many
left, if any others at the moment,that aren't heavily subsidized.
We are, fully dependent on the farebox,and run as a commercial operation.
(03:12):
We took a big hit during COVID when,the ridership went down dramatically.
but we've weathered that stormand we've come through and now,
the future's looking a lot better.
but yeah, it's a commercial system, sothere's franchise operators, There's
three franchise holders of the buses,and then there's the MTR which runs
(03:33):
all the underground or the tube system.
So we as bus operators need to relyon the farebox, but we also have, you
know, a lot more say in how thingsare done here as opposed to if it's
under a contract model, for example.
So, you know, by way of an example, we'reresponsible for all the advertising,
we're responsible for, the bus sheltersand the bus poles and the marketing,
(03:56):
we're responsible, for the ticketing, theapp, so there's a broader responsibility
than you would find in a normal kindof contracted operating environment.
Paul Comfort (04:06):
That's interesting.
That's a lot of information, Adam.
Thanks.
I want to unpack it alittle bit if we can.
So you all operate as one of threeproviders, and then there's MTR does
the rail, is that what you said?
Adam Leishman (04:16):
Yes.
And there's minibuses as well, whichare operated by separate companies.
but overall, you know, betweenthe minibuses, the franchise
buses, the franchise buses aremostly double deck, I would say.
the public transport, andthere's a lot of ferries as well.
But let's say roughly 50 percentin the bus system, 50 percent in
the rail system of the trips taken.
Paul Comfort (04:35):
That's good.
You bid on this and the Hong Konggovernment selects you all for
like, what, five to seven yearcontracts or how does that work?
Adam Leishman (04:41):
no, so we renegotiated last year a new 10 year franchise.
Okay.
We have two contracts, which,both go for 10 years from last
year, so we're one year into that.
and it's generally renegotiated,each time that comes around,
same with the other operators.
And on the rail side,it's slightly different.
(05:02):
the MTR is, I think about 60 65percent owned by the government.
and that has a special relationshipwhere they are responsible for the
development of the MTR system, theunderground system, and it's also
attached to property rights around thestations, which is a very interesting
(05:23):
way and forward thinking way of fundinga lot of the rail infrastructure.
you see this fantastic rail systemthat's been funded by the development
of the stations where they'll buildretail and commercial and residential
and then have an ongoing income supplythat subsidizes the operation itself.
(05:43):
So it's a very interesting modelthat they've developed in Hong Kong.
Paul Comfort (05:46):
Yeah, it is.
It's really a model, I think, thatother countries are looking at.
I know here in the U.
S., there's been a lot ofstudies done on that model.
So, MTR also operates the Elizabeth line.
in London for Transport for London.
I've ridden on that.
We've interviewed the managingdirector, had him on our podcast before.
So, transit oriented development there.
(06:07):
So, is the rail system the same as buses?
It operates completely on, the revenuethey bring in from, retail and,
leases and, farebox and the governmentdoesn't have to directly subsidize it?
Adam Leishman (06:17):
Yeah, so the MTR and the buses are both, I guess
you'd say, commercial operations.
However, the big difference is theMTR has property rights and they're
able to, generate other income.
whereas the bus operation here, wehave limited other income sources,
which is something I'm exploring andlooking at, setting up other things.
And actually, we just set up a mediabusiness, which is going pretty well.
(06:40):
So, we have the opportunity to do otherthings to help support the operations
themselves because, even in Hong Kongwhere we've been commercial for 90
years, actually we've just celebrated90 years of buses in Hong Kong, it's at
a point where it has been challengingthe last few years and with COVID we
really, got tested, let's say, so it'sa time to kind of recalibrate, I think.
Paul Comfort (07:04):
Right.
Okay.
Let's switch back to buses then.
So you operate completelywithout government subsidy, but
you have, a franchise for likecertain routes in certain areas.
So you don't have competitor buscompanies coming in on your routes.
Is that right?
Or do you share stops and hubs?
Adam Leishman (07:19):
Actually, that sounds like a simple question.
So we have the exclusive rights onparticular routes, with a few exceptions.
There's some routes across the harbour.
So Hong Kong, from a geographicperspective, is, there was an island.
where we kind of historicallydominated and provided the operation
(07:41):
on the island, and then there wasthe Mainland that's kind of attached
to China, but is Hong Kong.
Now the tunnels, there's kind of like,we, cross over and go either side.
So some of those tunnelcrossings, we operate 50 50.
So you have the one route number,but actually we do half of it and
KMB does the other half of it.
but most of the routes will have likeour routes and they'll have their routes.
(08:03):
In addition to that, however, there'sa minibus network that emerged over the
years, and the minibus has, think ofit like a demand responsive service,
that before demand responsive was evenbeing talked about with technology,
that's the minibus system in Hong Kong.
So, there is a bit of competitionbetween the big double deck
buses and the minibuses.
(08:23):
There are some routes thatthe big buses can't go, the
minibuses can, which makes sense.
But then there's there's also competitionand has been historically between
the rail network and the bus network.
As you can imagine, with a fullcommercial system, where initially buses
dominated, as the rail system expanded,they were taking away customers from
the bus system, and of course, the busoperators, which were privately held,
(08:46):
saw them as a competitor, as a threat,so what emerged over time was almost
two competing systems or networks, oneon the road and one on the rail system,
and of course, where we are today,looking at the environment, looking at
congestion, looking at all these otherthings, since we've got here, we've
tried to kind of coordinate that a lotmore between the modes because actually
(09:10):
You don't want buses and rail competing.
You want them working together andcomplementing each other as a body.
So we've been taking some stepsto try to help that happen.
Paul Comfort (09:20):
this is so interesting to me because it's such a different model.
So Adam, one other source of revenuethat you've mentioned to me that you
all have been able to do to kind of helpyour company is you have a media company.
What's that about?
Adam Leishman (09:30):
two and a half years ago, during COVID, we had a challenge
with the advertising on the buses.
Having experienced in London whatwas possible and the tremendous job
that's done there, I just wasn'thappy with the quality that we
were getting, nor the innovation.
So we set up a media business andstarted doing it ourselves on the
buses, really pushing the limits whenit came to creativity and Ensuring
(09:55):
that the quality was second to none.
our competitor, the MTR, because rememberthe buses and the trains we kind of
compete, but we kind of work together.
and I've been trying to get as muchcloser and, you know, we've done some good
things together because, we grow the pie,let's say together, it's much smarter.
they were obviously impressed with whatwe'd been doing on the buses and asked
us to bid in their upcoming tender.
(10:15):
And we won 20 percent of their system.
So we're now advertising onthe train stations and the
trains and the light rail.
that business in the space of two anda half years has, become the second
largest advertising agency in Hong Kong.
And we're happy to host Outof Home Advertising, Congress
tomorrow, in Hong Kong.
So that's been a reallywild ride, very exciting.
(10:36):
And I would have never guessed thatI'd be moving into advertising,
but it's been fantastic.
Paul Comfort (10:40):
It reminds me of, Sir Richard Branson.
I'm listening to his lifestory now, his autobiography
and listening to him read it.
And that's kind of the way he was, youknow, he just continued to look for
vertical expansion opportunities, right?
Adam Leishman (10:52):
and I guess in many ways, like, I got into the transport
space because my family was in it,but I had a career before that.
And I guess deep down I'm anentrepreneur that happens to be
in transport and now I've grown tolove and see the value of it, but
I always see opportunities as well.
Paul Comfort (11:10):
That's amazing, man.
So, here in the U.
S., you have another company,right, that you founded?
Tell us about that company.
Adam Leishman (11:16):
Yeah, so Ascendal, my company, which has an interest in Hong
Kong, but has other operations in the U.
K., Chile.
And last year, we bought a very smallbusiness in the East Coast of the U.
S.
we've got, three contracts, soon to befour contracts in Florida and Georgia.
we've had a presence in the U.
S.
for going on five years now, doinga bit of consulting work for various
(11:37):
authorities and operators, specializingin BRT and strategies around property
around BRT, and, various other things,hydrogen, but it's nice to put the toe
in the water when it comes to operations,which is really our core business.
And that's going really well.
it is good to get a more in depthunderstanding of how things work in
(11:58):
the US market, which is probably moresimilar to what I'm used to from my time
in Australia and London and Singapore.
Hong Kong's really the exception.
It's quite unique.
So, so yeah, it's really excitingto put the toe in the water and
you know, things are going well.
Paul Comfort (12:13):
is your ridership back up to, like, 2019 levels pre pandemic,
do you know, on your system, or close?
Yeah,
Adam Leishman (12:20):
I think things have changed a little bit.
We're probably like 7 8 percentdown on where we were pre pandemic.
Paul Comfort (12:26):
Okay, well that's not too bad.
Adam Leishman (12:27):
It's not too bad, but I think there's been a bit
of change in travel patterns.
There's also been a bit ofrationalization of services.
So it's hard to put the, you know,exactly what the breakup of that is.
And then also the airport is still,recovering, I mean, it was one
of the, I think it was the numberone visited city in the world.
I think we had something like60 million visitors a year.
(12:48):
and, you know, we're not quiteback up to those levels yet either.
So we also have the exclusive rightsfrom the airport to Hong Kong Island and
Kowloon South, so we're susceptible to,what's happening at the airport as well.
Paul Comfort (13:01):
But with nine out of 10 trips happening, riding the
bus, I mean, that's amazing, Adam.
the population reallyis into public transit.
Adam Leishman (13:10):
Oh, I mean, some of our buses, you're getting, 60, 70, even
up to 80 percent occupancy on average.
You know, sometimes whenyou're in business, you forget
about why you're in business.
and I think public transport and busesare such a critical part of society,
and we make such an impact in not onlythe people we serve, but also the people
that work for us and their families.
(13:31):
And, you know, my father and mygrandfather, our family's been in buses
in Australia for over 50 years now, and,that's something I learned from watching
my father is, how important it is tolook after the people that work for
you, and to always remember why you'redoing what you're doing, so, you know.
I think we play such animportant role in society,
Paul Comfort (13:50):
And so, since we're on that topic, I did want to dive into
that a little bit, delve into yourbackground and history and your families.
You have a rich history.
Why don't you tell us more about that?
Adam Leishman (13:59):
Yeah, yeah.
So my grandfather, 50 years ago,bought a business that was struggling.
my father left collegeto go help him fix it.
They did.
This was in, just northof Sydney in Australia.
my father in 96 started a company withthe first contracted out service in Perth
in Western Australia, and, did very well.
(14:19):
I was growing up around a depot.
I was seeing how the busesoperate from a young, young age
and learn a lot from my father.
And, you know, I think compassionis a good word you used before.
But also leadership, you know, the wayhe respected his people and treated
them very well, I think, is one ofthe reasons he was so successful
and I've tried to emulate that.
Paul Comfort (14:40):
And then what happened to, how long were you there?
Where did you go from there?
And cause you were involved inTower Transit for a while, right?
walk us through your career path.
Adam Leishman (14:48):
Okay.
So Transit Systems was the nameof the company in Australia.
I helped to set up a head office andgrow that business in Australia and
then in 2013, an opportunity came up forus to expand, back to the motherland,
let's say, and, we went to London andwe bought a business there that was
running 500 red buses, double deckmostly, for Transport for London.
(15:10):
And, I relocated to run that business,became the CEO of Tower Transit, and
absolutely had my eyes opened, comingfrom Australia to London, London Red
Buses, the iconic buses, what othercity in the world is, the icon is a bus.
and it was just an amazingsystem to be a part of.
I learned so much from Transportfor London and the people
there, they treated me so well.
(15:32):
And, you know, I was able to, well, we,the team I was with were, were able to
turn around what was a struggling businessat the time, turn it into one of the
top operators in London, and includingrunning hydrogen buses and various
things, which I can talk about later.
And then in 2015, you know, I spenta lot of time with the Singapore
(15:53):
government, giving them, you know, somethoughts around the optimal structure
when it comes to governance of buses,and they opened up their market to
international competition in 2015.
There were 11 bidders.
for a 400 bus contract, the firstone, and we were very lucky to be
successful in winning that one.
so, you know, that's kind of, when theglobal operators, Stood up and said,
(16:17):
who are these guys that have just poppedup and won this contract in Singapore?
but that was a life changing experiencefor me and that really where, I realized
the true value of public transportto a city and what it can unleash and
the value it can create for the peoplethat live there in so many areas.
You know, if you, ask me, what's somethingthat can help with the environment,
(16:39):
that can help with congestion, thatcan help with health, that can help
with economic development, help with,lifestyle, and the list goes on and on
and on, and I would say, well, there'snothing that can do all of that.
But actually, public transport helpsall of those things, and it's quite
extraordinary when you put it in thatcontext, that public transport done well
(16:59):
can really transform an entire city.
And so I saw that kind of firsthand.
Singapore was already a great citywhen it came to public transport.
But they aspired to be even greater.
And so they really transformedtheir bus system at that time.
New buses came in, the networkexpanded, new depots were built,
the customer experience was broughtto another level, the information
(17:22):
availability, just everything.
we were at the forefront of that,I even remember at one point it
was just a surreal experience.
I got into an Uber and the driver realizedthat I was the CEO of Tower Transit and we
had such a profile in Singapore because,you know, the buses meant so much to the
city and there was so much attention.
I mean, this guy, you know, he wassquealing with excitement that I was in
(17:43):
his car and I'm just like, this is weird,you know, but it was a great experience.
and really, at that point, I realisedI want to dedicate my career to this
because, you know, if I can takethese learnings and transpose them
into other cities, the impact wecan have is dramatic, is dramatic.
And particularly when you overarchthat with a rethinking of how we
(18:04):
do planning and urban development.
And I saw some great examplesin London, like King's Cross,
for example, where you turn intransport hubs into community hubs.
And where people want to live andbe because it's the exciting place,
it's connected, you don't need a car.
and you can turn really downand out places in a city.
All of a sudden they become the place youwant to be because you don't need a car.
(18:27):
You've got all the action thatyou need and walking distance.
And if you need to go further, you've gotevery transport mode at your availability.
So yeah, very exciting journey.
I sold that business in 2018, Ascend,Tower Transit, back to the partners so
that they could then, roll Tower Transitback into the Australian company and
they did a deal with a listed company andthat's how they became a listed company.
(18:51):
At the time I didn't reallywant to work in a listed company
environment so I formed a Sendleand then the Hong Kong opportunity
came up and the rest is history.
Paul Comfort (19:00):
What a story, Adam.
And you know, I was thinking whileyou were talking, you have worked
in senior positions in three of theworld's greatest transit cities.
London, Singapore, and Hong Kong.
Adam Leishman (19:10):
It has been amazing.
I pinched myself some days, andnot only worked in, I was the
CEO of companies running busesin each three of those cities.
And I did some maths the otherday and worked out that in the
last 10 years I've moved over1.8 billion people, which, Adam.
If you had asked me that 10years ago, I would have never
(19:31):
predicted what I would have done.
Paul Comfort (19:33):
Not many people can say that.
That's wild.
I guess in our remaining minutes, youmentioned that you have been involved with
hydrogen way back when, which of courseis coming into fruition here in the U.
S.
and Canada, especially people are reallyleaning into that as a new, bleeding
edge or leading edge technology.
What else do you see forthe industry going forward?
Whether it's technology, whether it's,transit oriented development for around
(19:56):
the world, what are some of the hottrends you see happening right now?
Adam Leishman (19:59):
yeah, I mean, I was running hydrogen from 2013 in London.
I've just brought it intoHong Kong actually last year.
Paul Comfort (20:06):
Is it working good for you there?
Adam Leishman (20:07):
Yeah, it's only been going for a few months, but it's doing well.
And the fans in Hong Kong, I mean,the streets align when we bring a
new bus out, and particularly whenit's the first tri axle hydrogen
double deck bus in the world.
People are like lining up withtheir cameras, waiting all
hours, so it's an exciting place.
But with regards to trends, I mean,obviously there's the big trend
(20:30):
to zero emission, but I think.
As an industry, we need to getbetter at telling the narrative.
It's not just about zero emission.
That doesn't fix all of our problems.
Actually, public transport itself andmode shift and getting people out of
cars and into buses and trains canhave as much, if not more, impact than
turning an entire fleet zero emission.
(20:52):
Particularly, you know, at theearly stages of this transition,
there's plenty of teething issues.
And if things don't go well, and actuallypeople stop using the bus and start using
their car, then we're in a worse position.
so I always say hasten slowly whenit comes to new technology, but I
think what we shouldn't be hastening,what we should be pushing super hard
(21:13):
is expansion of public transport,and we've got to make it sexy.
You know, the perceptionof public transport.
you know, where I come fromin Australia, and I think U.
S.
is very similar with verybig spread out cities where
people are very car dependent.
A lot of the developing world relyheavily on buses in particular,
but they aspire to have cars.
(21:35):
It's a sign of wealth.
there was a very interesting studyI saw a few years ago about The car
desirability, and in Europe and citieslike that, where there was good public
transport systems, and it was in London,it was seen to be, okay and acceptable
to use a public transport system,car desirability was actually low.
And I haven't had a car foreight years, because I love not
(21:56):
having a car and moving around.
But actually, in the developing worldand in the US and Australia, where
we have very spread out cities, youknow, car desirability very high.
And I think that's a shame and somethingthat our industry should really focus
on, because we have so much to offer.
And when it's done well, it's kindof the silver bullet in many ways
(22:18):
to a lot of the city's problems.
And we don't shout that enough.
We don't claim that position enoughbecause I think we really should be
because there's so many benefits thatcome from improving the perception of
public transport and delivering that.
Paul Comfort (22:33):
That is very well said.
I've heard, um, Other folks in theindustry, leaders in the industry, global
leaders, say very similar things, uh,that, you know, let's not, let's not
make that the end all, be all, do all,zero emission, really the end all, be
all, do all is the silver bullet, publictransit, and that's just a way to make
it even cleaner than it already is.
(22:53):
Any closing thoughtsyou have for us, Adam?
Adam Leishman (22:55):
Yeah, and on that point, I mean, zero emission is mostly about
carbon, but actually, you can have alot of electric, cars and they're still,
off gassing and there's still NOX andthere's still rubber, toxins going
into the air with the, we're breathing.
So yeah, I absolutely echo what you justsaid, if you want to be healthier, we've
got to stop building roads and cars, andwe've got to design cities for people, and
(23:18):
make them more human and community based.
And, you know, having lived inAustralia, where we have very
similar cities, style wise, to the U.
S., And then living in places likeLondon and Hong Kong, where you can
have that more dense development aroundtransport nodes, and you can create
community, you can create all the thingsyou need for lifestyle, and actually,
(23:41):
you know, having personally changed mylifestyle to be in that environment,
I think It's much more fulfilling.
it's much more, a lifestyle thatis not lonely, let's say, whereas
often living, you know, driving acar from house to work, house to
work, house to shop, can be lonely.
it's not good for health.
so I just think we have so much to offerand we need to be bold in saying that.
Paul Comfort (24:02):
Wow.
what a great commentary on the role,the value as a transit evangelist.
I say a hearty hip hoorayto what you just said.
So, Adam Leishman, thank you so muchfor the work you're doing in Hong Kong
and that you have done around the world.
thanks again for being our guest today.
we look forward to seeing the great thingsthat you're going to continue to do there
in Hong Kong and through your companiesand your holdings around the world.
Adam Leishman (24:23):
Thanks very much, Paul.
thanks for having the timeto interview me today.
Tris Hussey (24:31):
Hi, this is Tris Hussey editor of the Transit Unplugged podcast.
Thanks for listening to thisweek's episode with our guest Adam.
Leishman.
Now coming up next week onthe show, we have something
actually very special for you.
Paul recently appeared on the podcast,Lunch with Leon to talk about his
latest book, the new future ofpublic transportation with one of the
contributors, Simon Reed so tune in onJuly 3rd for this special feed drop.
(24:57):
And watch the show notes on that episode.
So you can have Lunch with Leon too.
Do you have a craving for transit news?
Something that you can count onweek after week, they give you
a really tight minute of news.
You should look for thetransit unplugged news minute.
Now it's as a podcast,wherever you get to podcast.
(25:17):
On YouTube and on LinkedIn.
Look for.
Every Monday morning.
Transit unplugged is broughtto you by Modaxo at Modaxo.
We're passionate aboutmoving the world's people.
And a transit unplugged.
We're passionate abouttelling those stories.
So until next week, ridesafe and ride happy.
I'm Paul Comfort, and this is Transit Unplugged, the
world's leading transit executivepodcast, now in our seventh season.
How would you like to find out allabout how a public transit system in
one of the major cities in the worldtakes no subsidy from the government?
How do they do that?
We'll tell you today howit's done with Adam Leishman.
(00:25):
Adam has a great history.
He started out in Australia, with hisgrandfather's bus company, then moved
to London where he took over TowerTransit, and then they moved into
Singapore, and now he's been in HongKong living the car free lifestyle
for over eight years now, and talksto us about how public transportation
works in three of the world'sgreat public transportation cities,
London, Singapore, and now Hong Kong.
(00:48):
He is the CEO of Bravo Holdings,which is the owner of CityBus
and Bravo Media in Hong Kong.
Nine out of 10 trips taken in the Cityof Hong Kong are taken on public transit.
His operation, one of the threecompanies that operates under
contracts with the government,transports a million passengers a day.
Today, he's going to dive into how theyoperate their 1700 buses, how the whole
(01:10):
tender system works in Hong Kong, whatwe can learn from MTR, who operates
the rail system there, and how theyoperate with transit oriented development
that helps subsidize the train system.
So many things we're going todive into today in an area of
the world which we haven't talkedmuch about here on the podcast.
Join us on this adventurousconversation on Transit Unplugged.
Now, Adam Leishman.
(01:32):
I'm excited to talk about publictransportation in Hong Kong in particular.
We've never covered thaton Transit Unplugged.
You're our first guest from there.
And so thank you againfor sharing with us.
And why don't you open us up with,tell us some about Hong Kong.
Adam Leishman (01:45):
I moved to Hong Kong about three and a half years ago in
the middle of, COVID, which was aninteresting time to change countries.
And was part of a group that purchased thesecond largest bus operator in Hong Kong.
there's two large bus operators runningthe franchise bus services in Hong Kong.
and Hong Kong is, by many measures,considered the number one public
(02:07):
transport city in the world.
nine out of every ten trips In Hong Kongoccur on public transport, which as an
Australian, and in the U S very similarto Australia, you know, having nine out
of every 10 trips on public transportis kind of a bit, hard to comprehend.
so when I moved here and I moved fromLondon, actually, I was running buses
(02:28):
in London and Singapore previously, butit was a real, you know, eye opener,
the business that I'm responsiblefor here, Citybus moves about a
million people every day on 1, 700buses, with about 5, 000 staff here.
and, you know, it's just agreat system to be a part of.
the system is very unusual to alot of the systems I've been a
(02:50):
part of previously, and that isbecause it's a commercial system.
one of the few commercially runbus systems in the world, actually,
and particularly on the back ofCOVID, I don't think there's many
left, if any others at the moment,that aren't heavily subsidized.
We are, fully dependent on the farebox,and run as a commercial operation.
(03:12):
We took a big hit during COVID when,the ridership went down dramatically.
but we've weathered that stormand we've come through and now,
the future's looking a lot better.
but yeah, it's a commercial system, sothere's franchise operators, There's
three franchise holders of the buses,and then there's the MTR which runs
(03:33):
all the underground or the tube system.
So we as bus operators need to relyon the farebox, but we also have, you
know, a lot more say in how thingsare done here as opposed to if it's
under a contract model, for example.
So, you know, by way of an example, we'reresponsible for all the advertising,
we're responsible for, the bus sheltersand the bus poles and the marketing,
(03:56):
we're responsible, for the ticketing, theapp, so there's a broader responsibility
than you would find in a normal kindof contracted operating environment.
Paul Comfort (04:06):
That's interesting.
That's a lot of information, Adam.
Thanks.
I want to unpack it alittle bit if we can.
So you all operate as one of threeproviders, and then there's MTR does
the rail, is that what you said?
Adam Leishman (04:16):
Yes.
And there's minibuses as well, whichare operated by separate companies.
but overall, you know, betweenthe minibuses, the franchise
buses, the franchise buses aremostly double deck, I would say.
the public transport, andthere's a lot of ferries as well.
But let's say roughly 50 percentin the bus system, 50 percent in
the rail system of the trips taken.
Paul Comfort (04:35):
That's good.
You bid on this and the Hong Konggovernment selects you all for
like, what, five to seven yearcontracts or how does that work?
Adam Leishman (04:41):
no, so we renegotiated last year a new 10 year franchise.
Okay.
We have two contracts, which,both go for 10 years from last
year, so we're one year into that.
and it's generally renegotiated,each time that comes around,
same with the other operators.
And on the rail side,it's slightly different.
(05:02):
the MTR is, I think about 60 65percent owned by the government.
and that has a special relationshipwhere they are responsible for the
development of the MTR system, theunderground system, and it's also
attached to property rights around thestations, which is a very interesting
(05:23):
way and forward thinking way of fundinga lot of the rail infrastructure.
you see this fantastic rail systemthat's been funded by the development
of the stations where they'll buildretail and commercial and residential
and then have an ongoing income supplythat subsidizes the operation itself.
(05:43):
So it's a very interesting modelthat they've developed in Hong Kong.
Paul Comfort (05:46):
Yeah, it is.
It's really a model, I think, thatother countries are looking at.
I know here in the U.
S., there's been a lot ofstudies done on that model.
So, MTR also operates the Elizabeth line.
in London for Transport for London.
I've ridden on that.
We've interviewed the managingdirector, had him on our podcast before.
So, transit oriented development there.
(06:07):
So, is the rail system the same as buses?
It operates completely on, the revenuethey bring in from, retail and,
leases and, farebox and the governmentdoesn't have to directly subsidize it?
Adam Leishman (06:17):
Yeah, so the MTR and the buses are both, I guess
you'd say, commercial operations.
However, the big difference is theMTR has property rights and they're
able to, generate other income.
whereas the bus operation here, wehave limited other income sources,
which is something I'm exploring andlooking at, setting up other things.
And actually, we just set up a mediabusiness, which is going pretty well.
(06:40):
So, we have the opportunity to do otherthings to help support the operations
themselves because, even in Hong Kongwhere we've been commercial for 90
years, actually we've just celebrated90 years of buses in Hong Kong, it's at
a point where it has been challengingthe last few years and with COVID we
really, got tested, let's say, so it'sa time to kind of recalibrate, I think.
Paul Comfort (07:04):
Right.
Okay.
Let's switch back to buses then.
So you operate completelywithout government subsidy, but
you have, a franchise for likecertain routes in certain areas.
So you don't have competitor buscompanies coming in on your routes.
Is that right?
Or do you share stops and hubs?
Adam Leishman (07:19):
Actually, that sounds like a simple question.
So we have the exclusive rights onparticular routes, with a few exceptions.
There's some routes across the harbour.
So Hong Kong, from a geographicperspective, is, there was an island.
where we kind of historicallydominated and provided the operation
(07:41):
on the island, and then there wasthe Mainland that's kind of attached
to China, but is Hong Kong.
Now the tunnels, there's kind of like,we, cross over and go either side.
So some of those tunnelcrossings, we operate 50 50.
So you have the one route number,but actually we do half of it and
KMB does the other half of it.
but most of the routes will have likeour routes and they'll have their routes.
(08:03):
In addition to that, however, there'sa minibus network that emerged over the
years, and the minibus has, think ofit like a demand responsive service,
that before demand responsive was evenbeing talked about with technology,
that's the minibus system in Hong Kong.
So, there is a bit of competitionbetween the big double deck
buses and the minibuses.
(08:23):
There are some routes thatthe big buses can't go, the
minibuses can, which makes sense.
But then there's there's also competitionand has been historically between
the rail network and the bus network.
As you can imagine, with a fullcommercial system, where initially buses
dominated, as the rail system expanded,they were taking away customers from
the bus system, and of course, the busoperators, which were privately held,
(08:46):
saw them as a competitor, as a threat,so what emerged over time was almost
two competing systems or networks, oneon the road and one on the rail system,
and of course, where we are today,looking at the environment, looking at
congestion, looking at all these otherthings, since we've got here, we've
tried to kind of coordinate that a lotmore between the modes because actually
(09:10):
You don't want buses and rail competing.
You want them working together andcomplementing each other as a body.
So we've been taking some stepsto try to help that happen.
Paul Comfort (09:20):
this is so interesting to me because it's such a different model.
So Adam, one other source of revenuethat you've mentioned to me that you
all have been able to do to kind of helpyour company is you have a media company.
What's that about?
Adam Leishman (09:30):
two and a half years ago, during COVID, we had a challenge
with the advertising on the buses.
Having experienced in London whatwas possible and the tremendous job
that's done there, I just wasn'thappy with the quality that we
were getting, nor the innovation.
So we set up a media business andstarted doing it ourselves on the
buses, really pushing the limits whenit came to creativity and Ensuring
(09:55):
that the quality was second to none.
our competitor, the MTR, because rememberthe buses and the trains we kind of
compete, but we kind of work together.
and I've been trying to get as muchcloser and, you know, we've done some good
things together because, we grow the pie,let's say together, it's much smarter.
they were obviously impressed with whatwe'd been doing on the buses and asked
us to bid in their upcoming tender.
(10:15):
And we won 20 percent of their system.
So we're now advertising onthe train stations and the
trains and the light rail.
that business in the space of two anda half years has, become the second
largest advertising agency in Hong Kong.
And we're happy to host Outof Home Advertising, Congress
tomorrow, in Hong Kong.
So that's been a reallywild ride, very exciting.
(10:36):
And I would have never guessed thatI'd be moving into advertising,
but it's been fantastic.
Paul Comfort (10:40):
It reminds me of, Sir Richard Branson.
I'm listening to his lifestory now, his autobiography
and listening to him read it.
And that's kind of the way he was, youknow, he just continued to look for
vertical expansion opportunities, right?
Adam Leishman (10:52):
and I guess in many ways, like, I got into the transport
space because my family was in it,but I had a career before that.
And I guess deep down I'm anentrepreneur that happens to be
in transport and now I've grown tolove and see the value of it, but
I always see opportunities as well.
Paul Comfort (11:10):
That's amazing, man.
So, here in the U.
S., you have another company,right, that you founded?
Tell us about that company.
Adam Leishman (11:16):
Yeah, so Ascendal, my company, which has an interest in Hong
Kong, but has other operations in the U.
K., Chile.
And last year, we bought a very smallbusiness in the East Coast of the U.
S.
we've got, three contracts, soon to befour contracts in Florida and Georgia.
we've had a presence in the U.
S.
for going on five years now, doinga bit of consulting work for various
(11:37):
authorities and operators, specializingin BRT and strategies around property
around BRT, and, various other things,hydrogen, but it's nice to put the toe
in the water when it comes to operations,which is really our core business.
And that's going really well.
it is good to get a more in depthunderstanding of how things work in
(11:58):
the US market, which is probably moresimilar to what I'm used to from my time
in Australia and London and Singapore.
Hong Kong's really the exception.
It's quite unique.
So, so yeah, it's really excitingto put the toe in the water and
you know, things are going well.
Paul Comfort (12:13):
is your ridership back up to, like, 2019 levels pre pandemic,
do you know, on your system, or close?
Yeah,
Adam Leishman (12:20):
I think things have changed a little bit.
We're probably like 7 8 percentdown on where we were pre pandemic.
Paul Comfort (12:26):
Okay, well that's not too bad.
Adam Leishman (12:27):
It's not too bad, but I think there's been a bit
of change in travel patterns.
There's also been a bit ofrationalization of services.
So it's hard to put the, you know,exactly what the breakup of that is.
And then also the airport is still,recovering, I mean, it was one
of the, I think it was the numberone visited city in the world.
I think we had something like60 million visitors a year.
(12:48):
and, you know, we're not quiteback up to those levels yet either.
So we also have the exclusive rightsfrom the airport to Hong Kong Island and
Kowloon South, so we're susceptible to,what's happening at the airport as well.
Paul Comfort (13:01):
But with nine out of 10 trips happening, riding the
bus, I mean, that's amazing, Adam.
the population reallyis into public transit.
Adam Leishman (13:10):
Oh, I mean, some of our buses, you're getting, 60, 70, even
up to 80 percent occupancy on average.
You know, sometimes whenyou're in business, you forget
about why you're in business.
and I think public transport and busesare such a critical part of society,
and we make such an impact in not onlythe people we serve, but also the people
that work for us and their families.
(13:31):
And, you know, my father and mygrandfather, our family's been in buses
in Australia for over 50 years now, and,that's something I learned from watching
my father is, how important it is tolook after the people that work for
you, and to always remember why you'redoing what you're doing, so, you know.
I think we play such animportant role in society,
Paul Comfort (13:50):
And so, since we're on that topic, I did want to dive into
that a little bit, delve into yourbackground and history and your families.
You have a rich history.
Why don't you tell us more about that?
Adam Leishman (13:59):
Yeah, yeah.
So my grandfather, 50 years ago,bought a business that was struggling.
my father left collegeto go help him fix it.
They did.
This was in, just northof Sydney in Australia.
my father in 96 started a company withthe first contracted out service in Perth
in Western Australia, and, did very well.
(14:19):
I was growing up around a depot.
I was seeing how the busesoperate from a young, young age
and learn a lot from my father.
And, you know, I think compassionis a good word you used before.
But also leadership, you know, the wayhe respected his people and treated
them very well, I think, is one ofthe reasons he was so successful
and I've tried to emulate that.
Paul Comfort (14:40):
And then what happened to, how long were you there?
Where did you go from there?
And cause you were involved inTower Transit for a while, right?
walk us through your career path.
Adam Leishman (14:48):
Okay.
So Transit Systems was the nameof the company in Australia.
I helped to set up a head office andgrow that business in Australia and
then in 2013, an opportunity came up forus to expand, back to the motherland,
let's say, and, we went to London andwe bought a business there that was
running 500 red buses, double deckmostly, for Transport for London.
(15:10):
And, I relocated to run that business,became the CEO of Tower Transit, and
absolutely had my eyes opened, comingfrom Australia to London, London Red
Buses, the iconic buses, what othercity in the world is, the icon is a bus.
and it was just an amazingsystem to be a part of.
I learned so much from Transportfor London and the people
there, they treated me so well.
(15:32):
And, you know, I was able to, well, we,the team I was with were, were able to
turn around what was a struggling businessat the time, turn it into one of the
top operators in London, and includingrunning hydrogen buses and various
things, which I can talk about later.
And then in 2015, you know, I spenta lot of time with the Singapore
(15:53):
government, giving them, you know, somethoughts around the optimal structure
when it comes to governance of buses,and they opened up their market to
international competition in 2015.
There were 11 bidders.
for a 400 bus contract, the firstone, and we were very lucky to be
successful in winning that one.
so, you know, that's kind of, when theglobal operators, Stood up and said,
(16:17):
who are these guys that have just poppedup and won this contract in Singapore?
but that was a life changing experiencefor me and that really where, I realized
the true value of public transportto a city and what it can unleash and
the value it can create for the peoplethat live there in so many areas.
You know, if you, ask me, what's somethingthat can help with the environment,
(16:39):
that can help with congestion, thatcan help with health, that can help
with economic development, help with,lifestyle, and the list goes on and on
and on, and I would say, well, there'snothing that can do all of that.
But actually, public transport helpsall of those things, and it's quite
extraordinary when you put it in thatcontext, that public transport done well
(16:59):
can really transform an entire city.
And so I saw that kind of firsthand.
Singapore was already a great citywhen it came to public transport.
But they aspired to be even greater.
And so they really transformedtheir bus system at that time.
New buses came in, the networkexpanded, new depots were built,
the customer experience was broughtto another level, the information
(17:22):
availability, just everything.
we were at the forefront of that,I even remember at one point it
was just a surreal experience.
I got into an Uber and the driver realizedthat I was the CEO of Tower Transit and we
had such a profile in Singapore because,you know, the buses meant so much to the
city and there was so much attention.
I mean, this guy, you know, he wassquealing with excitement that I was in
(17:43):
his car and I'm just like, this is weird,you know, but it was a great experience.
and really, at that point, I realisedI want to dedicate my career to this
because, you know, if I can takethese learnings and transpose them
into other cities, the impact wecan have is dramatic, is dramatic.
And particularly when you overarchthat with a rethinking of how we
(18:04):
do planning and urban development.
And I saw some great examplesin London, like King's Cross,
for example, where you turn intransport hubs into community hubs.
And where people want to live andbe because it's the exciting place,
it's connected, you don't need a car.
and you can turn really downand out places in a city.
All of a sudden they become the place youwant to be because you don't need a car.
(18:27):
You've got all the action thatyou need and walking distance.
And if you need to go further, you've gotevery transport mode at your availability.
So yeah, very exciting journey.
I sold that business in 2018, Ascend,Tower Transit, back to the partners so
that they could then, roll Tower Transitback into the Australian company and
they did a deal with a listed company andthat's how they became a listed company.
(18:51):
At the time I didn't reallywant to work in a listed company
environment so I formed a Sendleand then the Hong Kong opportunity
came up and the rest is history.
Paul Comfort (19:00):
What a story, Adam.
And you know, I was thinking whileyou were talking, you have worked
in senior positions in three of theworld's greatest transit cities.
London, Singapore, and Hong Kong.
Adam Leishman (19:10):
It has been amazing.
I pinched myself some days, andnot only worked in, I was the
CEO of companies running busesin each three of those cities.
And I did some maths the otherday and worked out that in the
last 10 years I've moved over1.8 billion people, which, Adam.
If you had asked me that 10years ago, I would have never
(19:31):
predicted what I would have done.
Paul Comfort (19:33):
Not many people can say that.
That's wild.
I guess in our remaining minutes, youmentioned that you have been involved with
hydrogen way back when, which of courseis coming into fruition here in the U.
S.
and Canada, especially people are reallyleaning into that as a new, bleeding
edge or leading edge technology.
What else do you see forthe industry going forward?
Whether it's technology, whether it's,transit oriented development for around
(19:56):
the world, what are some of the hottrends you see happening right now?
Adam Leishman (19:59):
yeah, I mean, I was running hydrogen from 2013 in London.
I've just brought it intoHong Kong actually last year.
Paul Comfort (20:06):
Is it working good for you there?
Adam Leishman (20:07):
Yeah, it's only been going for a few months, but it's doing well.
And the fans in Hong Kong, I mean,the streets align when we bring a
new bus out, and particularly whenit's the first tri axle hydrogen
double deck bus in the world.
People are like lining up withtheir cameras, waiting all
hours, so it's an exciting place.
But with regards to trends, I mean,obviously there's the big trend
(20:30):
to zero emission, but I think.
As an industry, we need to getbetter at telling the narrative.
It's not just about zero emission.
That doesn't fix all of our problems.
Actually, public transport itself andmode shift and getting people out of
cars and into buses and trains canhave as much, if not more, impact than
turning an entire fleet zero emission.
(20:52):
Particularly, you know, at theearly stages of this transition,
there's plenty of teething issues.
And if things don't go well, and actuallypeople stop using the bus and start using
their car, then we're in a worse position.
so I always say hasten slowly whenit comes to new technology, but I
think what we shouldn't be hastening,what we should be pushing super hard
(21:13):
is expansion of public transport,and we've got to make it sexy.
You know, the perceptionof public transport.
you know, where I come fromin Australia, and I think U.
S.
is very similar with verybig spread out cities where
people are very car dependent.
A lot of the developing world relyheavily on buses in particular,
but they aspire to have cars.
(21:35):
It's a sign of wealth.
there was a very interesting studyI saw a few years ago about The car
desirability, and in Europe and citieslike that, where there was good public
transport systems, and it was in London,it was seen to be, okay and acceptable
to use a public transport system,car desirability was actually low.
And I haven't had a car foreight years, because I love not
(21:56):
having a car and moving around.
But actually, in the developing worldand in the US and Australia, where
we have very spread out cities, youknow, car desirability very high.
And I think that's a shame and somethingthat our industry should really focus
on, because we have so much to offer.
And when it's done well, it's kindof the silver bullet in many ways
(22:18):
to a lot of the city's problems.
And we don't shout that enough.
We don't claim that position enoughbecause I think we really should be
because there's so many benefits thatcome from improving the perception of
public transport and delivering that.
Paul Comfort (22:33):
That is very well said.
I've heard, um, Other folks in theindustry, leaders in the industry, global
leaders, say very similar things, uh,that, you know, let's not, let's not
make that the end all, be all, do all,zero emission, really the end all, be
all, do all is the silver bullet, publictransit, and that's just a way to make
it even cleaner than it already is.
(22:53):
Any closing thoughtsyou have for us, Adam?
Adam Leishman (22:55):
Yeah, and on that point, I mean, zero emission is mostly about
carbon, but actually, you can have alot of electric, cars and they're still,
off gassing and there's still NOX andthere's still rubber, toxins going
into the air with the, we're breathing.
So yeah, I absolutely echo what you justsaid, if you want to be healthier, we've
got to stop building roads and cars, andwe've got to design cities for people, and
(23:18):
make them more human and community based.
And, you know, having lived inAustralia, where we have very
similar cities, style wise, to the U.
S., And then living in places likeLondon and Hong Kong, where you can
have that more dense development aroundtransport nodes, and you can create
community, you can create all the thingsyou need for lifestyle, and actually,
(23:41):
you know, having personally changed mylifestyle to be in that environment,
I think It's much more fulfilling.
it's much more, a lifestyle thatis not lonely, let's say, whereas
often living, you know, driving acar from house to work, house to
work, house to shop, can be lonely.
it's not good for health.
so I just think we have so much to offerand we need to be bold in saying that.
Paul Comfort (24:02):
Wow.
what a great commentary on the role,the value as a transit evangelist.
I say a hearty hip hoorayto what you just said.
So, Adam Leishman, thank you so muchfor the work you're doing in Hong Kong
and that you have done around the world.
thanks again for being our guest today.
we look forward to seeing the great thingsthat you're going to continue to do there
in Hong Kong and through your companiesand your holdings around the world.
Adam Leishman (24:23):
Thanks very much, Paul.
thanks for having the timeto interview me today.
Tris Hussey (24:31):
Hi, this is Tris Hussey editor of the Transit Unplugged podcast.
Thanks for listening to thisweek's episode with our guest Adam.
Leishman.
Now coming up next week onthe show, we have something
actually very special for you.
Paul recently appeared on the podcast,Lunch with Leon to talk about his
latest book, the new future ofpublic transportation with one of the
contributors, Simon Reed so tune in onJuly 3rd for this special feed drop.
(24:57):
And watch the show notes on that episode.
So you can have Lunch with Leon too.
Do you have a craving for transit news?
Something that you can count onweek after week, they give you
a really tight minute of news.
You should look for thetransit unplugged news minute.
Now it's as a podcast,wherever you get to podcast.
(25:17):
On YouTube and on LinkedIn.
Look for.
Every Monday morning.
Transit unplugged is broughtto you by Modaxo at Modaxo.
We're passionate aboutmoving the world's people.
And a transit unplugged.
We're passionate abouttelling those stories.
So until next week, ridesafe and ride happy.
Popular Podcasts
On Purpose with Jay Shetty
I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com