January 8, 2025 • 23 mins
This week we are proud and excited to share an interview with a true public transit legend: Howard Collins, OBE. Howard's remarkable 47 year career has taken him from London's Tube and Sydney's trains to leading transit for the state of New South Wales in Australia. Howard sat down with Paul to talk and reflect on not just where transit has been, but where it's going with workforce development, funding, and making transit just better for everyone.
This is a don't-miss interview you can draw insight and inspiration from no matter where in the world you are.
Speaking of don't-miss interviews, next week we have Acting FTA Administrator Veronica Vanterpool talking with Paul about the changes in transit over the past four years and what the future could hold in the years ahead. Make sure you subscribe or follow Transit Unplugged wherever you listen so you don't miss an episode.
00:05 Welcome to Transit Unplugged and introducing our guest, Howard Collins OBE
00:45 Howard Collins' Career Journey
01:54 Current Role and Responsibilities
03:53 Innovations and Workforce Diversity
06:53 Public Transport Challenges and Solutions
10:30 Future of Transport in Australia
14:55 Career Advice for Mid-Level Managers
17:50 Advice for Senior Leaders and CEOs
19:57 Local Manufacturing and Future Projects
22:36 Coming up next week on Transit Unplugged
If you have a question or comment, email us at info@transitunplugged.com.
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Disclaimer: The views and opinions expressed in this program are those of the guests, and do not necessarily reflect the views or positions of Modaxo Inc., its affiliates or subsidiaries, or any entities they represent (“Modaxo”). This production belongs to Modaxo, and may contain information that may be subject to trademark, copyright, or other intellectual property rights and restrictions. This production provides general information, and should not be relied on as legal advice or opinion. Modaxo specifically disclaims all warranties, express or implied, and will not be liable for any losses, claims, or damages arising from the use of this presentation, from any material contained in it, or from any action or decision taken in response to it.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:05):
Welcome to the first episode of2025 for the world's leading transit
executive podcast, Transit Unplugged.
I'm your host, Paul Comfort.
We always like to have a top leaderin our industry as the first episode
of a New Year, and on today's episode,we have the privilege of hearing from
one of the most decorated leaders inpublic transportation, Howard Collins.
(00:27):
This is the second of five interviewsfrom my recent tour in Australia.
I had the pleasure of speaking withHoward at the Bus Industry Confederation
Conference in Hobart, Tasmania.
We enjoyed a wide ranging conversationwhile sitting outside in the beautiful
Hobart Harbor on a crisp, sunny morning.
Howard's career in public transportis nothing short of remarkable.
(00:48):
From serving as Chief Operating Officerof the London Underground, to becoming
the Chief Executive of Sydney Trains andGroup Rail at Transport for New South
Wales, to Acting Secretary for Transportfor New South Wales, and now Coordinator
General at Transport for New South Walesin Sydney, Australia's largest city.
Howard is also an Officer of the Orderof the British Empire, or an OBE.
(01:12):
In addition to this impressivecareer, Howard even has a recipe in my
cookbook Comfort Food for sweet chili,chicken, and salad wrap on page 85.
I think you'll really enjoy hearing fromone of our industry's most experienced
and respected leaders on this, thefirst episode of 2025, Howard Collins.
Let's dive into our conversation.
(01:35):
Howard Collins, great to haveyou on the show again, my friend.
Thank you so much for inviting me back.
Yeah, we're here sitting outside ofthe harbor in Hobart, Tasmania, man.
It's a beautiful place, you know,it has a lot of historic culture,
the sun is shining, it couldn'tbe a better place to attend.
What is the bus?
Conference.
That's right.
Yep.
So let's talk about what you're doingnow in Sydney, in your role there.
(01:57):
How long have you been there, by the way?
I've been there over 11 years now.
Started as the Chief Executive ofSydney Trains, but four years ago
moved to Chief Operating Officer, nowCoordinator General for the whole state.
What does that do?
Well, it generally coordinates, andthat's bringing together all the modes
of public transport and a little bitof air services and roads to make
sure that we work seamlessly together.
(02:19):
And the state is New South Wales?
New South Wales, seven times asbig as the UK, as I remind people,
not quite as big as the US.
Really?
But it's a big, big, youknow, country, big state.
Yeah.
A thousand kilometers byabout 800 kilometers wide.
So a pretty big place.
Last time I was here, you took meto your Rail Operations Center,
which wasn't even operational yet.
You were just testing it.
(02:39):
Paul, you should come back here.
It is an amazing, it's stillafter What, four or five years
now, it's, it really is booming.
the important thing is recognizingthat the screen, the 32 meter
screen by, by 7 meters, that wasmade in the good old US of A.
That's the largest TV screen in theSouthern Hemisphere or something?
It is, yeah, yeah.
And, and over a hundred people on shiftare in that network, and it is, it's
(03:03):
almost like a dream come true for me,because I had a blank piece of paper,
and working with people like Tony Eadeand Liz Ward, we sat down and said,
let's check out all the control roomsand control centers around the world.
What's the best?
What's, what people have changed?
And we created this flexible floor layoutwhich you can move around at any time.
(03:24):
But I always say it's a bitlike the Starship Enterprise.
You know, you've got CaptainKirk in the middle, you've got
engineering on one side, you'vegot comms on the other, you've got
social media, you've got drivers.
It's sort of like, the center panning out.
That way.
It works pretty well with us andthey work in their own little hubs.
We're bringing more technology in.
We're bringing new digital signaling.
(03:45):
It is, you know, it will changeover time, but the rock, as we call
it, yes, is, is, going really well.
Yes.
Well, let's talk aboutthe people in your agency.
Last time I was here a few yearsago, you were telling me about
programs to get more women into busdrivers and operators of trains.
What's the new innovations you'reworking on with your own employees?
Well, starting from the topto the bottom, you know.
(04:08):
Our top transport executive is over 50percent women now, in fact 60 percent
women, but we have worked, you know,at the frontline place where we've
encouraged women to drive buses, tooffer flexibility for their work rates,
because I think that is important.
But also we've had big campaigns onthe rail network where now you're
(04:29):
more likely to see a woman drivinga train, a new trainee, than a man.
And it's good to say.
We are open to anybody.
We want to encourage everyonefrom every background to
reflect the community we serve.
When you think about it, 50 percent ofpeople who travel on our trains are women.
Huge majority of those people alsoare migrant workers who travel around.
(04:49):
We want to make sure it feelslike home for those people.
We want to make sure we encouragepeople who see a career.
And it is a career, there's somuch you can do in transport,
not just driving a bus.
That's right.
You can start from sweepingthe platforms and end up being,
you know, a senior manager.
Or do something else.
That's right.
Yeah, that's great.
(05:09):
It reminds me of our mutual friendAndy Byford, who now is in the U.
S.
working with Amtrak on high speed rail.
Yeah.
He always, told me how hekind of curated his career.
He said, Paul, I want to spend a fewyears doing this, a few years doing that.
And there's so many aspects topublic transportation, isn't there?
HR, finance, IT, procurement,legal, operations.
Yeah, and he
was and has been a great buddy of mine.
(05:31):
I remember when he firststarted as a graduate trainee
and I was in middle management.
But Andy's right, you know, youcan pick and choose, you know, he's
travelled the world, he's given itthe best knowledge, he's still talked
about it in Australia, although heleft, you know, quite a few years ago.
Yeah.
Because he was good at onething above everything else, and
(05:51):
that was working with people.
Whether it was the unions, thefrontline staff, whether it
was people at senior level orpoliticians, Andy was good at that.
And we all, if you look acrossour fraternity of leaders We
are about people leadership.
We're not about assets, you know, inthe old days of the engineering barons
making signaling or rolling stock.
(06:12):
Yeah, it's all about the heavy rail.
It's all about the warm wear, thepeople, the people that we work with.
That's right.
And if you show respect, support,they will become a loyal workforce
and they will be great people.
Future leaders, you know, for us.
Yeah.
How many people, like, isin your total workforce?
Do you know?
Well, in, in transport for NewSouth Wales, there's over 30, 000.
(06:32):
Wow.
Of all walks of life.
You know, in Sydney trains,there are about 16, 000
people, which I looked after.
now we're, we're, you know, I'vegot Maritime, I've got, people
who manage bus contracts, I've gotpeople who manage the road network.
they're great people.
And, and what I'm encouraging is forpeople to feel that they have the
opportunity to develop and progress.
(06:53):
Let's talk about your structure,the government structure there
and how you, how it all works.
It's, it's very interesting to me.
Yeah, it is.
It's a bit like the States in theway that you have a very strong and
powerful state based government,okay, who really in public transport
has done a lot of the investment.
Federal governments, you know, they'reresponsible for our protection in terms
of the army, their, their taxation.
(07:16):
And some of the aged care, but weare now seeing a better collaboration
between federal politicians and ourNew South Wales politicians where
we can support, you know, the wholebasis is trying to get the people
back on public transport, trying toremove the heavy use on car journeys.
When I lived in London and worked inLondon, about 70 percent of all journeys
(07:38):
in London were by public transportand the rest was by private car.
You know, congestion charging, fuelprices, it's crazy to own a car in London.
Here, it's the other way around.
Less than 20 percent of journeysare made by public transport.
Everyone seems to have their parkingspace, everyone believes they're
entitled to drive everywhere.
What we've got to do is makepublic transit more attractive.
(08:01):
Turn up and go.
Modern vehicles, safe,secure, air conditioned.
then people will come.
Yes.
Particularly for the youngsters.
I think the younger generation dorealize the importance of protecting the
environment, but also the practicalityof working and living in cities.
Yeah.
Cities are still growing.
Whether we like it or not, Sydneywill be nine million in the next
(08:23):
25 years and we need to build theinfrastructure now, before people come.
And that requires investment.
I know that, in America,Australia, Europe.
During the pandemic, a lot of peoplewent fare free and now there's, you
know, some still vestiges of that.
But like Mohamed Mezghani says andlike I say and other people, look,
(08:44):
we need more transit, not less.
And when you do polls and surveys,people say they don't say I'm not
riding because I got to pay a buck.
They say I'm not riding becauseit doesn't go where I want to go.
It doesn't feel safe.
It doesn't go as often as I want to go.
Absolutely.
There is a sweet spot in transportwhere you can charge a reasonable
fare to cover it basic costs.
Yeah.
But we know most places do not do that.
(09:06):
And if they do, thefaires are astronomical.
You know, have you,have you gone to London?
Occasionally you'll go there andyou'll find that you are, you
are almost buying the transitsystem, not just traveling on it.
I do think though, that, you know, mayorof London has done some good things to
change that, and I do think what we needto do is be realistic about pricing.
Almost if you make it free or cheap,people then abuse it, you know?
(09:27):
Yeah.
They don't value it as much.
They don't value it as much.
Yeah.
There again, I do believe that whatwe've got to do is consider this, just
like the pipes of the water, the gasmains, is it's a utility, it's a service,
we need to provide that, particularlyto places where there are elderly.
or people who need publictransport who can't drive anymore.
(09:49):
We have people who can't fly,so we put them on the train and
we charge them 25 bucks to, or30 bucks to go a long distance,
because that's what we need to do.
Yeah.
Provide that social support for alot of I think that's very fair.
That's the equity side, right?
We want to make sure that peoplethat need a little extra help get it.
Yeah, yeah.
There's nothing wrong with that.
I actually think we need to do that.
And I think the balance is here, youknow, I always look over the Harbour
(10:12):
Bridge, 50 cars equals one bus.
Yeah.
You know, we should be giving morepriority to, bus transit systems.
We should, building as we're doingin Parramatta, a light rail system,
which is the next level up in termsof quality and, level of ride for
people around Parramatta City, whichis a big city in its own right.
And the future, what do you seefor the future for transport
(10:32):
here in Australia and the world?
Well we're, we're at a tipping point.
I really think that's important.
Australia is growing, it'll beanother five million of which,
you know, two thirds will beskilled migration coming into this
country, a third is our own growth.
We have got to now work throughthe strategy of how we provide
great public transport toencourage people out of their cars.
(10:55):
and into mass transit.
That is a challenge for us.
Otherwise, you know, I always say youcan build new highways, you can build
them 16 lanes wide, go to Los Angelesand you can still be in a traffic jam.
That's right.
You can't, you can't buildyourself out of a private car.
And what we can't do is swap, you know,autonomous vehicles which take up as
(11:17):
much space with one person in them,because that's not going to fix it.
What you need to do is the densificationof travel, you know, in a, in a very,
you know, professional and a very safeway, but people In trains, buses, moving
them seamlessly to the city on a frequentbasis, you know, why bother to drag
(11:38):
your car out, find somewhere to park,when you can actually turn up and go.
The one thing we need to fixis that last mile, in old
fashioned, I still call it a mile.
No, that's right, yeah.
and I think that's something in Australiawe're really trying to tackle now.
How do you get from your home, whichmight be a couple of kilometres,
to the station without, you know,clutting up the corridors with
(11:59):
thousands of throwaway electric bikes.
How do we do that safely?
How do we provide people with travelwhen it's raining or it's so hot
that you won't want to be on yourscooter or your electric bike?
How do we do that?
That is a critical part of our work tounderstand how we connect people from
their home to where they want to go to.
(12:20):
Seamlessly.
What else is going on?
Any, any other cool,great things happening?
Well, I think, the, the greatnews, For us is we're still seeing
that investment by government.
We've got a government now who's veryvery supportive in getting people out
of cars and into public transport.
We're also seeing investment in ournext generation of the Opal card We're
going out to market for that in the nextfew months to get in the best of the
(12:43):
world's leaders when it comes to accountbased ticketing or you know the new
way of procuring stuff that the we alllive with I'm in love with Uber and all
those others, so we're looking at that.
We're certainly on a mission toreally clean up our bus, fleet.
and I'm, by 2035, we're hoping to haveall of the vehicles in Sydney converted
(13:04):
to either hydrogen or battery electric,and that's a big challenge for us.
And then, of course, moremetros are on their way.
You know, Paul, in five years time,there'll be another few lines operating.
The city needs it.
We need to get people back on publictransport, and we're getting there.
Yeah.
Now you all are part ofthe Commonwealth, right?
Uh, of, of the United Kingdom.
(13:25):
And you and your pals withsome of the people there that
run the transit system, right?
Our friend Andy Lord wasjust down here with you.
Yeah, absolutely.
I think, um, whilst Australia isvery much an independent country
and has their own views, I think itis important that we work together.
And there's, there is a, youknow, a smallish community
of leaders around the world.
who actually have, worked inAustralia, London, Hong Kong,
(13:48):
Singapore, and even in the USA.
And Canada!
And Canada, you know, some really, reallyimportant that we share those ideas.
I always say, I brought nooriginal thought when I arrived
in Sydney, 11 years ago.
I just borrowed, begged, and knew someof other people's brilliant ideas.
Yeah.
and sometimes it's important torecognize the great ideas that people
(14:09):
have You know, in your new city.
They just haven't been givenpermission to go ahead and do it.
Well, you bring, you bring a lot of,wisdom, I think, from those experiences.
And you can share that here, right?
Yeah, and I think, you know, I'vebeen in transit 47 years and counting.
10 more than me.
You got me by 10, yeah.
It's time to download and share.
(14:30):
You know, not all my experiences weregreat experience, but the one thing
you get with, seniority, if I sayage, is you learn a lot, sometimes
just a one time experience, thechances to share it with other people.
Whether they take it up, it's up to them.
Right.
You know, it's like a downloadinga computer which is full of data.
Since you do have 47 years, I don'twant to let you get away without
(14:51):
sharing some of your wisdom that you've,that you've gleaned along the years.
You can pass on others.
Let's start with, a lot ofpeople that listen to our show
are like my friend Schneider St.
Preux from Miami who startedas a bus driver and now has
become the Superintendentof Bus Operations for Miami.
So for a mid level manager who wants tomove up, do you have any career advice?
Yeah, I've, I've, I've, I've We wasthere very much in middle management,
(15:15):
you know, I started as a cadet outof school And Schneider well done.
I think it's a great great great Exampleof how in this industry you don't
have to be brought in from outside orhave You know, the top qualifications,
our organization, you know, as I saidbefore, get as much qualifications you
can, you know, you're competing againsta market which has more information,
(15:39):
but make it relevant, you know, dothose courses which are relevant
to transit, it really is important.
Some of the The chartered bases we havein the UK or some of the international
courses are well worth doing andthe other thing is Always be there.
Be in the, be in the moment.
You know, my advice to younger people isyou can't progress your career via Teams.
(16:02):
You can't do it remotely.
We expect every transit worker toturn up every day, drive a bus,
drive a train, be on the platforms,you know, doing all the signalling.
As managers, we need toexpect the same out of us.
So we be there, because the othertip is, when you're there, as a
passenger or as a manager, you get theexperience that everyone else gets.
(16:23):
You don't smell new paint like the QueenMother of England used to smell every
time and had great facilities around you.
You see it.
Good and bad.
And also you share it with,the staff you work with.
The other thing, my tipis, nothing is beneath you.
So if there's a spill on the platform,or there's litter on the ground, or
there's something happening, and thestaff are under pressure, offer to help.
(16:46):
Not as the boss to tell them whatto do, they're the supervisors,
just to give them a hand.
You know, sometimes it's just thatfive minutes of support they need,
which makes a big difference.
And the visibility, like Andy Byford,and many of my colleagues, visibility
and being out there, being approachable,but also, being, You know, not just
(17:06):
turning up with a bunch of other, youknow, managers, like some delegation.
Yes.
You know, go on your own, feelcomfortable, you know, learn those things.
And if you can, the opportunityto share with other people from
other agencies, because quiteoften we have the same problems.
It might be bus and rail working together.
It might be, you know, meetingpeople like yourself, Paul,
(17:30):
and listening to your podcast.
I often think these are the same issuesI'm facing and how great it is that I can
hear from other people around the worldjust by the click on a, on my computer.
Yeah.
So great opportunity, but as amiddle manager, energy, enthusiasm,
get out there and be there.
That's excellent.
All right.
(17:50):
What about for senior leaders?
for CEOs, such as you've been, and theones we've mentioned today, such as my
friend Kevin Quinn, who heads up TransLinkin Vancouver, who used to work with me.
He shows up on his own, likeyou mentioned, by the way.
He doesn't have a big entourage.
He's there.
So give us some advicefor the CEOs of the world.
I think when you first walk in to theboardroom, you know, as a new CEO,
(18:13):
it's always worth not reacting to thefirst person who knocks on your door,
tells you how things are good or bad.
Okay.
You know, they're the peoplewho want to tell you everything.
Wait for that 4th or 5th conversationwith other people to really
understand how the place works.
I often found the executive supportteam, if they've been there a
(18:33):
while, they know everything.
I, you know, I've, I work witha lady who's been the CEO's
executive support for 20 years.
She knows everything and everybody andcertainly when I first walked through
the door gave me advice about, you know,All those things which are important.
The other thing is, itis getting out there.
You can't drive your, leadyour organisation from the
(18:56):
boardroom or your desk.
You need to go everywhere.
I had a chart on my wall, had all360 stations and I would tick them.
Take them off where I've been, evenif it was five minutes to say hello,
or drop into the, you know, where theymaintain the trains, or do some, you
know, resurface the signalling equipment.
Get out there and see what people do.
(19:18):
We do a lot of work onnights and weekends.
In the transport industry, a lotof the business comes to life
while we do maintenance overnight.
So it's not a nine to five job.
As a CEO, or as a senior leader,think about the times when you need to
understand by putting your steel toecap boots on in your gloves and your
high visibility jacket and you knowworking and understanding what people
(19:41):
do at night as well as during the day.
We're a 24 7 business.
So We were chatting just beforethis about, in America, we've been
having what I deem an OEM crisis.
A year ago, we had five busmanufacturers in the United States.
Now we're down to two.
What's happening here inAustralia in that, in that regard?
Well, it is a real challenge because Iam passionate about creating jobs, buying
(20:02):
local and having manufacturing backin Australia, if not New South Wales.
But the challenge is the Chinese andmany other foreign manufacturers are
much more mature in their markets.
They know the products, they buildreliable buses and at a low price.
So what we have now is youhave a fledgling industry of
bus building, in, Australia.
(20:24):
We're trying to ensure they get an equalfooting with those competitors, but also
we're trying to improve their reliability.
There's some great vehicles out there.
But as you know, when you startbuilding hand built things like, you
know, Morgan Cars or Rolls Royce's, theinitial production was very difficult
to get reliability, whereas theChinese have been building thousands
every year for the last 10 years.
(20:47):
We're working through that.
We'd encourage more manufacturing.
in Australia.
Not just throwing together, you know,putting the seats and the windows
from a foreign sort of manufacturingbase, but really good manufacturing.
And I'm keen.
We have an order book for 4, 000 buses.
We'd like to think a good majorityof those could be vehicles made in
(21:07):
Australia, if not New South Wales.
That's great.
Yeah, while you're here, you told meyou're going to go inspect a ferry?
Yes, we're having seven, in fact,now eight ferries built in Tasmania.
This is the first time in a long time thatSydney has had Australian built ferries.
Okay.
they've come from China and Indonesia.
The company I'm visiting today,they are going to be a fantastic.
(21:31):
we've got three on the water.
They sail them, although they're riverbased ferries, they sail from here
on a good window, weather window, allthe way from here to New South Wales.
It takes, you know, almost two days.
but they're a great manufacturer.
And the eighth ferry that we nowhave support from the government
to procure will be all electric.
Oh, wow.
We'll be our first fully electricferry used in the harbour, that
(21:54):
will make a big difference.
And that will be our trial base forconverting the whole fleet over the next
20 to 25 years to zero emission ferries.
Well, Howard, this has beena fascinating conversation.
Thank you so much for taking a fewminutes with us here at the conference.
I would say, Paul, I'm alwaysdelighted, you know, you do a great
job bringing cities together throughyour podcasts and your videos.
(22:17):
So thank you so much forinviting me yet again.
Thank you for listening to thisfirst show of 2025 with our
special guest, Howard Collins.
I hope you like all of us here areTransit Unplugged, found inspiration
in his words and perspectives.
Coming up next week, we are excited toannounce that acting FTA Administrator
(22:39):
Veronica Vanterpool joins Paul to talkabout the changes and challenges transit
has faced over the past four years andwhat to expect in the coming years.
We hope you'll all tune in and tellyour friends about this great interview.
Transit Unplugged isbrought to you by Modaxo.
At Modaxo, we're passionate aboutmoving the world's people, and at
Transit Unplugged, we're passionateabout telling those stories.
(23:02):
So until next week, ridesafe and ride happy.
Welcome to the first episode of2025 for the world's leading transit
executive podcast, Transit Unplugged.
I'm your host, Paul Comfort.
We always like to have a top leaderin our industry as the first episode
of a New Year, and on today's episode,we have the privilege of hearing from
one of the most decorated leaders inpublic transportation, Howard Collins.
(00:27):
This is the second of five interviewsfrom my recent tour in Australia.
I had the pleasure of speaking withHoward at the Bus Industry Confederation
Conference in Hobart, Tasmania.
We enjoyed a wide ranging conversationwhile sitting outside in the beautiful
Hobart Harbor on a crisp, sunny morning.
Howard's career in public transportis nothing short of remarkable.
(00:48):
From serving as Chief Operating Officerof the London Underground, to becoming
the Chief Executive of Sydney Trains andGroup Rail at Transport for New South
Wales, to Acting Secretary for Transportfor New South Wales, and now Coordinator
General at Transport for New South Walesin Sydney, Australia's largest city.
Howard is also an Officer of the Orderof the British Empire, or an OBE.
(01:12):
In addition to this impressivecareer, Howard even has a recipe in my
cookbook Comfort Food for sweet chili,chicken, and salad wrap on page 85.
I think you'll really enjoy hearing fromone of our industry's most experienced
and respected leaders on this, thefirst episode of 2025, Howard Collins.
Let's dive into our conversation.
(01:35):
Howard Collins, great to haveyou on the show again, my friend.
Thank you so much for inviting me back.
Yeah, we're here sitting outside ofthe harbor in Hobart, Tasmania, man.
It's a beautiful place, you know,it has a lot of historic culture,
the sun is shining, it couldn'tbe a better place to attend.
What is the bus?
Conference.
That's right.
Yep.
So let's talk about what you're doingnow in Sydney, in your role there.
(01:57):
How long have you been there, by the way?
I've been there over 11 years now.
Started as the Chief Executive ofSydney Trains, but four years ago
moved to Chief Operating Officer, nowCoordinator General for the whole state.
What does that do?
Well, it generally coordinates, andthat's bringing together all the modes
of public transport and a little bitof air services and roads to make
sure that we work seamlessly together.
(02:19):
And the state is New South Wales?
New South Wales, seven times asbig as the UK, as I remind people,
not quite as big as the US.
Really?
But it's a big, big, youknow, country, big state.
Yeah.
A thousand kilometers byabout 800 kilometers wide.
So a pretty big place.
Last time I was here, you took meto your Rail Operations Center,
which wasn't even operational yet.
You were just testing it.
(02:39):
Paul, you should come back here.
It is an amazing, it's stillafter What, four or five years
now, it's, it really is booming.
the important thing is recognizingthat the screen, the 32 meter
screen by, by 7 meters, that wasmade in the good old US of A.
That's the largest TV screen in theSouthern Hemisphere or something?
It is, yeah, yeah.
And, and over a hundred people on shiftare in that network, and it is, it's
(03:03):
almost like a dream come true for me,because I had a blank piece of paper,
and working with people like Tony Eadeand Liz Ward, we sat down and said,
let's check out all the control roomsand control centers around the world.
What's the best?
What's, what people have changed?
And we created this flexible floor layoutwhich you can move around at any time.
(03:24):
But I always say it's a bitlike the Starship Enterprise.
You know, you've got CaptainKirk in the middle, you've got
engineering on one side, you'vegot comms on the other, you've got
social media, you've got drivers.
It's sort of like, the center panning out.
That way.
It works pretty well with us andthey work in their own little hubs.
We're bringing more technology in.
We're bringing new digital signaling.
(03:45):
It is, you know, it will changeover time, but the rock, as we call
it, yes, is, is, going really well.
Yes.
Well, let's talk aboutthe people in your agency.
Last time I was here a few yearsago, you were telling me about
programs to get more women into busdrivers and operators of trains.
What's the new innovations you'reworking on with your own employees?
Well, starting from the topto the bottom, you know.
(04:08):
Our top transport executive is over 50percent women now, in fact 60 percent
women, but we have worked, you know,at the frontline place where we've
encouraged women to drive buses, tooffer flexibility for their work rates,
because I think that is important.
But also we've had big campaigns onthe rail network where now you're
(04:29):
more likely to see a woman drivinga train, a new trainee, than a man.
And it's good to say.
We are open to anybody.
We want to encourage everyonefrom every background to
reflect the community we serve.
When you think about it, 50 percent ofpeople who travel on our trains are women.
Huge majority of those people alsoare migrant workers who travel around.
(04:49):
We want to make sure it feelslike home for those people.
We want to make sure we encouragepeople who see a career.
And it is a career, there's somuch you can do in transport,
not just driving a bus.
That's right.
You can start from sweepingthe platforms and end up being,
you know, a senior manager.
Or do something else.
That's right.
Yeah, that's great.
(05:09):
It reminds me of our mutual friendAndy Byford, who now is in the U.
S.
working with Amtrak on high speed rail.
Yeah.
He always, told me how hekind of curated his career.
He said, Paul, I want to spend a fewyears doing this, a few years doing that.
And there's so many aspects topublic transportation, isn't there?
HR, finance, IT, procurement,legal, operations.
Yeah, and he
was and has been a great buddy of mine.
(05:31):
I remember when he firststarted as a graduate trainee
and I was in middle management.
But Andy's right, you know, youcan pick and choose, you know, he's
travelled the world, he's given itthe best knowledge, he's still talked
about it in Australia, although heleft, you know, quite a few years ago.
Yeah.
Because he was good at onething above everything else, and
(05:51):
that was working with people.
Whether it was the unions, thefrontline staff, whether it
was people at senior level orpoliticians, Andy was good at that.
And we all, if you look acrossour fraternity of leaders We
are about people leadership.
We're not about assets, you know, inthe old days of the engineering barons
making signaling or rolling stock.
(06:12):
Yeah, it's all about the heavy rail.
It's all about the warm wear, thepeople, the people that we work with.
That's right.
And if you show respect, support,they will become a loyal workforce
and they will be great people.
Future leaders, you know, for us.
Yeah.
How many people, like, isin your total workforce?
Do you know?
Well, in, in transport for NewSouth Wales, there's over 30, 000.
(06:32):
Wow.
Of all walks of life.
You know, in Sydney trains,there are about 16, 000
people, which I looked after.
now we're, we're, you know, I'vegot Maritime, I've got, people
who manage bus contracts, I've gotpeople who manage the road network.
they're great people.
And, and what I'm encouraging is forpeople to feel that they have the
opportunity to develop and progress.
(06:53):
Let's talk about your structure,the government structure there
and how you, how it all works.
It's, it's very interesting to me.
Yeah, it is.
It's a bit like the States in theway that you have a very strong and
powerful state based government,okay, who really in public transport
has done a lot of the investment.
Federal governments, you know, they'reresponsible for our protection in terms
of the army, their, their taxation.
(07:16):
And some of the aged care, but weare now seeing a better collaboration
between federal politicians and ourNew South Wales politicians where
we can support, you know, the wholebasis is trying to get the people
back on public transport, trying toremove the heavy use on car journeys.
When I lived in London and worked inLondon, about 70 percent of all journeys
(07:38):
in London were by public transportand the rest was by private car.
You know, congestion charging, fuelprices, it's crazy to own a car in London.
Here, it's the other way around.
Less than 20 percent of journeysare made by public transport.
Everyone seems to have their parkingspace, everyone believes they're
entitled to drive everywhere.
What we've got to do is makepublic transit more attractive.
(08:01):
Turn up and go.
Modern vehicles, safe,secure, air conditioned.
then people will come.
Yes.
Particularly for the youngsters.
I think the younger generation dorealize the importance of protecting the
environment, but also the practicalityof working and living in cities.
Yeah.
Cities are still growing.
Whether we like it or not, Sydneywill be nine million in the next
(08:23):
25 years and we need to build theinfrastructure now, before people come.
And that requires investment.
I know that, in America,Australia, Europe.
During the pandemic, a lot of peoplewent fare free and now there's, you
know, some still vestiges of that.
But like Mohamed Mezghani says andlike I say and other people, look,
(08:44):
we need more transit, not less.
And when you do polls and surveys,people say they don't say I'm not
riding because I got to pay a buck.
They say I'm not riding becauseit doesn't go where I want to go.
It doesn't feel safe.
It doesn't go as often as I want to go.
Absolutely.
There is a sweet spot in transportwhere you can charge a reasonable
fare to cover it basic costs.
Yeah.
But we know most places do not do that.
(09:06):
And if they do, thefaires are astronomical.
You know, have you,have you gone to London?
Occasionally you'll go there andyou'll find that you are, you
are almost buying the transitsystem, not just traveling on it.
I do think though, that, you know, mayorof London has done some good things to
change that, and I do think what we needto do is be realistic about pricing.
Almost if you make it free or cheap,people then abuse it, you know?
(09:27):
Yeah.
They don't value it as much.
They don't value it as much.
Yeah.
There again, I do believe that whatwe've got to do is consider this, just
like the pipes of the water, the gasmains, is it's a utility, it's a service,
we need to provide that, particularlyto places where there are elderly.
or people who need publictransport who can't drive anymore.
(09:49):
We have people who can't fly,so we put them on the train and
we charge them 25 bucks to, or30 bucks to go a long distance,
because that's what we need to do.
Yeah.
Provide that social support for alot of I think that's very fair.
That's the equity side, right?
We want to make sure that peoplethat need a little extra help get it.
Yeah, yeah.
There's nothing wrong with that.
I actually think we need to do that.
And I think the balance is here, youknow, I always look over the Harbour
(10:12):
Bridge, 50 cars equals one bus.
Yeah.
You know, we should be giving morepriority to, bus transit systems.
We should, building as we're doingin Parramatta, a light rail system,
which is the next level up in termsof quality and, level of ride for
people around Parramatta City, whichis a big city in its own right.
And the future, what do you seefor the future for transport
(10:32):
here in Australia and the world?
Well we're, we're at a tipping point.
I really think that's important.
Australia is growing, it'll beanother five million of which,
you know, two thirds will beskilled migration coming into this
country, a third is our own growth.
We have got to now work throughthe strategy of how we provide
great public transport toencourage people out of their cars.
(10:55):
and into mass transit.
That is a challenge for us.
Otherwise, you know, I always say youcan build new highways, you can build
them 16 lanes wide, go to Los Angelesand you can still be in a traffic jam.
That's right.
You can't, you can't buildyourself out of a private car.
And what we can't do is swap, you know,autonomous vehicles which take up as
(11:17):
much space with one person in them,because that's not going to fix it.
What you need to do is the densificationof travel, you know, in a, in a very,
you know, professional and a very safeway, but people In trains, buses, moving
them seamlessly to the city on a frequentbasis, you know, why bother to drag
(11:38):
your car out, find somewhere to park,when you can actually turn up and go.
The one thing we need to fixis that last mile, in old
fashioned, I still call it a mile.
No, that's right, yeah.
and I think that's something in Australiawe're really trying to tackle now.
How do you get from your home, whichmight be a couple of kilometres,
to the station without, you know,clutting up the corridors with
(11:59):
thousands of throwaway electric bikes.
How do we do that safely?
How do we provide people with travelwhen it's raining or it's so hot
that you won't want to be on yourscooter or your electric bike?
How do we do that?
That is a critical part of our work tounderstand how we connect people from
their home to where they want to go to.
(12:20):
Seamlessly.
What else is going on?
Any, any other cool,great things happening?
Well, I think, the, the greatnews, For us is we're still seeing
that investment by government.
We've got a government now who's veryvery supportive in getting people out
of cars and into public transport.
We're also seeing investment in ournext generation of the Opal card We're
going out to market for that in the nextfew months to get in the best of the
(12:43):
world's leaders when it comes to accountbased ticketing or you know the new
way of procuring stuff that the we alllive with I'm in love with Uber and all
those others, so we're looking at that.
We're certainly on a mission toreally clean up our bus, fleet.
and I'm, by 2035, we're hoping to haveall of the vehicles in Sydney converted
(13:04):
to either hydrogen or battery electric,and that's a big challenge for us.
And then, of course, moremetros are on their way.
You know, Paul, in five years time,there'll be another few lines operating.
The city needs it.
We need to get people back on publictransport, and we're getting there.
Yeah.
Now you all are part ofthe Commonwealth, right?
Uh, of, of the United Kingdom.
(13:25):
And you and your pals withsome of the people there that
run the transit system, right?
Our friend Andy Lord wasjust down here with you.
Yeah, absolutely.
I think, um, whilst Australia isvery much an independent country
and has their own views, I think itis important that we work together.
And there's, there is a, youknow, a smallish community
of leaders around the world.
who actually have, worked inAustralia, London, Hong Kong,
(13:48):
Singapore, and even in the USA.
And Canada!
And Canada, you know, some really, reallyimportant that we share those ideas.
I always say, I brought nooriginal thought when I arrived
in Sydney, 11 years ago.
I just borrowed, begged, and knew someof other people's brilliant ideas.
Yeah.
and sometimes it's important torecognize the great ideas that people
(14:09):
have You know, in your new city.
They just haven't been givenpermission to go ahead and do it.
Well, you bring, you bring a lot of,wisdom, I think, from those experiences.
And you can share that here, right?
Yeah, and I think, you know, I'vebeen in transit 47 years and counting.
10 more than me.
You got me by 10, yeah.
It's time to download and share.
(14:30):
You know, not all my experiences weregreat experience, but the one thing
you get with, seniority, if I sayage, is you learn a lot, sometimes
just a one time experience, thechances to share it with other people.
Whether they take it up, it's up to them.
Right.
You know, it's like a downloadinga computer which is full of data.
Since you do have 47 years, I don'twant to let you get away without
(14:51):
sharing some of your wisdom that you've,that you've gleaned along the years.
You can pass on others.
Let's start with, a lot ofpeople that listen to our show
are like my friend Schneider St.
Preux from Miami who startedas a bus driver and now has
become the Superintendentof Bus Operations for Miami.
So for a mid level manager who wants tomove up, do you have any career advice?
Yeah, I've, I've, I've, I've We wasthere very much in middle management,
(15:15):
you know, I started as a cadet outof school And Schneider well done.
I think it's a great great great Exampleof how in this industry you don't
have to be brought in from outside orhave You know, the top qualifications,
our organization, you know, as I saidbefore, get as much qualifications you
can, you know, you're competing againsta market which has more information,
(15:39):
but make it relevant, you know, dothose courses which are relevant
to transit, it really is important.
Some of the The chartered bases we havein the UK or some of the international
courses are well worth doing andthe other thing is Always be there.
Be in the, be in the moment.
You know, my advice to younger people isyou can't progress your career via Teams.
(16:02):
You can't do it remotely.
We expect every transit worker toturn up every day, drive a bus,
drive a train, be on the platforms,you know, doing all the signalling.
As managers, we need toexpect the same out of us.
So we be there, because the othertip is, when you're there, as a
passenger or as a manager, you get theexperience that everyone else gets.
(16:23):
You don't smell new paint like the QueenMother of England used to smell every
time and had great facilities around you.
You see it.
Good and bad.
And also you share it with,the staff you work with.
The other thing, my tipis, nothing is beneath you.
So if there's a spill on the platform,or there's litter on the ground, or
there's something happening, and thestaff are under pressure, offer to help.
(16:46):
Not as the boss to tell them whatto do, they're the supervisors,
just to give them a hand.
You know, sometimes it's just thatfive minutes of support they need,
which makes a big difference.
And the visibility, like Andy Byford,and many of my colleagues, visibility
and being out there, being approachable,but also, being, You know, not just
(17:06):
turning up with a bunch of other, youknow, managers, like some delegation.
Yes.
You know, go on your own, feelcomfortable, you know, learn those things.
And if you can, the opportunityto share with other people from
other agencies, because quiteoften we have the same problems.
It might be bus and rail working together.
It might be, you know, meetingpeople like yourself, Paul,
(17:30):
and listening to your podcast.
I often think these are the same issuesI'm facing and how great it is that I can
hear from other people around the worldjust by the click on a, on my computer.
Yeah.
So great opportunity, but as amiddle manager, energy, enthusiasm,
get out there and be there.
That's excellent.
All right.
(17:50):
What about for senior leaders?
for CEOs, such as you've been, and theones we've mentioned today, such as my
friend Kevin Quinn, who heads up TransLinkin Vancouver, who used to work with me.
He shows up on his own, likeyou mentioned, by the way.
He doesn't have a big entourage.
He's there.
So give us some advicefor the CEOs of the world.
I think when you first walk in to theboardroom, you know, as a new CEO,
(18:13):
it's always worth not reacting to thefirst person who knocks on your door,
tells you how things are good or bad.
Okay.
You know, they're the peoplewho want to tell you everything.
Wait for that 4th or 5th conversationwith other people to really
understand how the place works.
I often found the executive supportteam, if they've been there a
(18:33):
while, they know everything.
I, you know, I've, I work witha lady who's been the CEO's
executive support for 20 years.
She knows everything and everybody andcertainly when I first walked through
the door gave me advice about, you know,All those things which are important.
The other thing is, itis getting out there.
You can't drive your, leadyour organisation from the
(18:56):
boardroom or your desk.
You need to go everywhere.
I had a chart on my wall, had all360 stations and I would tick them.
Take them off where I've been, evenif it was five minutes to say hello,
or drop into the, you know, where theymaintain the trains, or do some, you
know, resurface the signalling equipment.
Get out there and see what people do.
(19:18):
We do a lot of work onnights and weekends.
In the transport industry, a lotof the business comes to life
while we do maintenance overnight.
So it's not a nine to five job.
As a CEO, or as a senior leader,think about the times when you need to
understand by putting your steel toecap boots on in your gloves and your
high visibility jacket and you knowworking and understanding what people
(19:41):
do at night as well as during the day.
We're a 24 7 business.
So We were chatting just beforethis about, in America, we've been
having what I deem an OEM crisis.
A year ago, we had five busmanufacturers in the United States.
Now we're down to two.
What's happening here inAustralia in that, in that regard?
Well, it is a real challenge because Iam passionate about creating jobs, buying
(20:02):
local and having manufacturing backin Australia, if not New South Wales.
But the challenge is the Chinese andmany other foreign manufacturers are
much more mature in their markets.
They know the products, they buildreliable buses and at a low price.
So what we have now is youhave a fledgling industry of
bus building, in, Australia.
(20:24):
We're trying to ensure they get an equalfooting with those competitors, but also
we're trying to improve their reliability.
There's some great vehicles out there.
But as you know, when you startbuilding hand built things like, you
know, Morgan Cars or Rolls Royce's, theinitial production was very difficult
to get reliability, whereas theChinese have been building thousands
every year for the last 10 years.
(20:47):
We're working through that.
We'd encourage more manufacturing.
in Australia.
Not just throwing together, you know,putting the seats and the windows
from a foreign sort of manufacturingbase, but really good manufacturing.
And I'm keen.
We have an order book for 4, 000 buses.
We'd like to think a good majorityof those could be vehicles made in
(21:07):
Australia, if not New South Wales.
That's great.
Yeah, while you're here, you told meyou're going to go inspect a ferry?
Yes, we're having seven, in fact,now eight ferries built in Tasmania.
This is the first time in a long time thatSydney has had Australian built ferries.
Okay.
they've come from China and Indonesia.
The company I'm visiting today,they are going to be a fantastic.
(21:31):
we've got three on the water.
They sail them, although they're riverbased ferries, they sail from here
on a good window, weather window, allthe way from here to New South Wales.
It takes, you know, almost two days.
but they're a great manufacturer.
And the eighth ferry that we nowhave support from the government
to procure will be all electric.
Oh, wow.
We'll be our first fully electricferry used in the harbour, that
(21:54):
will make a big difference.
And that will be our trial base forconverting the whole fleet over the next
20 to 25 years to zero emission ferries.
Well, Howard, this has beena fascinating conversation.
Thank you so much for taking a fewminutes with us here at the conference.
I would say, Paul, I'm alwaysdelighted, you know, you do a great
job bringing cities together throughyour podcasts and your videos.
(22:17):
So thank you so much forinviting me yet again.
Thank you for listening to thisfirst show of 2025 with our
special guest, Howard Collins.
I hope you like all of us here areTransit Unplugged, found inspiration
in his words and perspectives.
Coming up next week, we are excited toannounce that acting FTA Administrator
(22:39):
Veronica Vanterpool joins Paul to talkabout the changes and challenges transit
has faced over the past four years andwhat to expect in the coming years.
We hope you'll all tune in and tellyour friends about this great interview.
Transit Unplugged isbrought to you by Modaxo.
At Modaxo, we're passionate aboutmoving the world's people, and at
Transit Unplugged, we're passionateabout telling those stories.
(23:02):
So until next week, ridesafe and ride happy.
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