July 30, 2025 • 27 mins
Last week, Mark Aesch and Alvin McBorrough unpacked a striking statistic: only 4 % of Americans ride transit, yet 84 % of people say they value it. This week we keep that conversation going with Rikesh Shah, former Chief Innovation Officer at Transport for London. Together with host Paul Comfort, Rikesh explores how customer‑focused metrics, open data, and smarter procurement can turn that 84 % of “transit supporters” into satisfied users—and why leadership has to set the stage for risk‑taking and co‑creation.
- From Volume to Value —Why ridership shouldn’t be the sole north‑star KPI, and how London’s open‑data program shifted travel behavior for the better.
- Customer‑First Metrics —Using design‑thinking and qualitative research to uncover the real pain points of diverse riders (and non‑riders).
- Making Cities a Test Bed —How transparent “problem statements” and outcome‑based procurement invite startups, scale‑ups, and tier‑ones to co‑create solutions.
- Smart Procurement 101 —Engage procurement early, signal future tenders, and use one streamlined process that covers pilot, scale‑up, and rollout.
- Leadership & Risk —What CEOs can do today to foster entrepreneurial cultures, align internal teams, and de‑risk innovation without overprescribing specs.
- Lessons from London —Congestion charging, Ultra‑Low Emission Zones, and open innovation under successive mayors—and what U.S. cities can adopt.
- Podcast Credits
Transit Unplugged is brought to you by Modaxo
- Creator, Host, + Producer: Paul Comfort
- Executive Producer: Julie Gates
- Producer + Newsletter Editor: Chris O’Keeffe
- Associate Producer: Cyndi Raskin
- Podcast Intern: Desmond Gates
Special thanks to:
Brand Design — Tina Olagundoye
Social Media — Tatyana Mechkarova
Disclaimer
The views and opinions expressed in this program are those of the guests and do not necessarily reflect the views or positions of Modaxo Inc., its affiliates or subsidiaries, or any entities they represent. This production belongs to Modaxo and may contain information subject to trademark, copyright, or other intellectual property rights and restrictions. This production provides general information and should not be relied on as legal advice or opinion. Modaxo specifically disclaims all warranties, express or implied, and will not be liable for any losses, claims, or damages arising from the use of this presentation, from any material contained in it, or from any action or decision taken in response to it.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Public transportation leadersare looking for ways to innovate.
And to improve how they procure products.
And that's exactly what we talkabout today with Rikesh Shah.
I'm Paul Comfort, andthis is Transit Unplugged.
And Rikesh Shah was the ChiefInnovation Officer at the world's
largest public transportation network,which is Transport for London.
That's when I firstmet him many years ago.
(00:22):
And now he's a consultant and a lecturerat major universities and does some work
with governments over in Europe and inthe UK and I invited him on to continue
the big conversation that we startedlast week, where we talked about what
is public transportation's focus, whatshould it be here in the US in particular,
(00:43):
when less than 5% of the peopleride public transit, but 84% of most
people in communities see value in it.
When Mark Aesch and Alvin McBurroughalso talked about the role of
artificial intelligence andimproving public transportation.
And on this one we continuekind of a big high idea.
As we talk about innovation, we talk aboutthe role of technology in improving public
(01:05):
transportation, and in particular in thelatter half, we talk in detail about an
area that Rikesh has much experience in,which is how to improve the procurement
process from a macro perspective,if you're an executive in an agency.
I think you'll find this kind of a great,almost like a give and take lecture
with one of the top minds in innovation,in public transportation in cities.
My good friend Rikesh Shah from London.
(01:30):
Great to have you withus today on the podcast.
Once again, Rikesh, one ofour few, two-time guests, man.
It's wonderful to be here, Paul.
It's a delight to be here again, and thank
you for having me.
As I said in the opening of theshow, Rikesh is one of these, globe
trotting innovation experts thatpublic transportation agencies
and other groups around the worldlook to, to help them improve
(01:52):
operations and efficiencies and data.
Rikesh, tell us all about yourbackground and how you got
to where you're at right now.
Yeah, Paul, I think first it just startedon the dinner table many years back.
My father worked for Transportfor London or what was London
Underground in those days.
And he served the city for 38 years on theoperational side, on the Metro, the Tube.
(02:14):
And, you know, every day we'dhave conversations about his day.
And how, you know, he was responsiblefor the station, how he really cared
about the local community and he reallycared about everyone's experiences.
And that really startedto get into my DNA.
And then I remember at university Istudied economics and public policy
(02:36):
and I remember one of the modules on,on transport around, road congestion
and infrastructure programs.
And I really enjoyed writing that essay.
And then I was also at the same time,very fascinated about cities and I was
fascinated about new organizations.
And that took me to about 2001where I joined Transport for London.
(02:57):
It was a completely new entity under thefirst mayor of London at the time was Ken
Livingston, Mayor Livingston, and at thattime we had a few hundred people when
I joined TFL, it's about 300 people andnow it's a 30,000 person organization.
Oh.
Oh wow.
Oh man.
The growth was incredible.
Yeah, and at TFL, I worked on awide range of programs from, in the
(03:20):
customer directorate about deliveringcustomer value, in the marketing
team, in the planning team, butalso in the communications teams.
And then more recently, I was in thedata and digital team where I set the
open innovation function, but also beeninvolved with things like open data.
So it's been an incredibleexperience, a great learning ground.
(03:41):
One of the best periods of my life.
And then more recently I've,now I'm doing three things.
I think rather than work with oneorganization, I'm working with
three different entities now.
So one is I work on a governmentfunded program on how do you use
procurement to drive more innovationin the public sector beyond transport.
, I also do some lecturing.
(04:01):
. And that's fascinating.
And, the third area is I also havemy own consultancy business where I'm
advising both cities but also industryplayers from startups, scale ups, and
corporates on how do we create bettervalue through public private partnerships.
You know, we just had on the podcasta few weeks ago, a friend of mine,
Mark Aesch, who talks about thetroubles with transit in America.
(04:25):
Basically, you know, the averageplace in America outside of New
York City, less than 5% of peopleride public transportation.
But 84% of the people see value in it.
So his argument is we shouldn't focusso much on getting from 4% to 4.1%.
We should focus on ensuring that whatthe 84% see value in, that we meet
(04:47):
that, we show them, we're doing that.
So they value, you know,helping people get to jobs.
That's what they value.
They value the fact that we'reproviding mobility to the elderly
and people with disabilities.
And they also value that we'rehelping people of lower income
families get to jobs and healthcare.
Those are things they see valueof in public transportation.
You're like the king of big data, Rikesh.
So talk to us about, you know,how is transport changing?
(05:11):
How can we better meet the needs of thecommunity and tell that story to the 84%
using technology and big data, et cetera?
I think mobility is in such an excitingperiod when it comes to new technologies
that if I go back to when my careerstarted, just my job, you know, the
fax machine or a CD or even just memoswas the way we worked with each other.
(05:32):
Even email was quite new when I started.
And you know, if we think aboutoperations, how that's changed.
You know, we're verypetrol-centric in the past.
We're now talking about electrification,we're about sustainability.
But I think the area around customerand technology is at an incredible,
interesting, and an opportunistic period.
(05:52):
And I think the word customeris critical, not passenger.
And I think when we start gettingthink about who we're serving,
we are there serving the citizen.
We're not simply there forperformance targets and just simply
saying, the buses arrived on time.
If that bus arrives on time, is itright from the customer's perspective?
Is it when the customer needs it?
And also customers don'tjust think about the car.
(06:14):
They're very multimodal.
So they use all forms of transport.
, They all have different personas.
In the morning, I might be a car driver.
In the afternoon, I might be a cyclist.
In the evening, I might be picking upmy kids and might go back to the car.
So again, there's very different personas.
Your journey in central London isvery different to your journey in
suburban London, or even if you'rein the outskirts, where I am,
(06:35):
I'm just on the border of London.
And I think the city'schanged, and I think customer's
expectations have changed.
So the city's changedbecause now it's a 24/7 city.
You know, whether it's movement offreight, movement of people, the city's
always on, particularly London, and Ithink expectations are now much higher
because if you think about an averagecustomer's experience, they might be
(06:59):
ordering their Amazon in the morning,or they might be using McDonald's in
the afternoon or something else, andsuddenly they have a good customer
experience, arguably, and then whenthey come to transport, they just
sometimes say, why isn't it just as good?
So, I think expectations are higher.
And you touched on it in your question.
You know, the opportunities we have withnew technology, whether it's big data,
(07:23):
whether it's cloud, whether it's therole of AI and machine learning, the rate
of technological change is incredible.
And I think what we need to get muchbetter at is get getting better at
what outcomes do we want for our city?
How do we better understand our customer?
How do we better understandthe offering that we want to
provide and when we provide it?
(07:46):
And ultimately, I think what we wantto do is use data, use new technologies
to embrace more value, and that'sabout doing things better, doing
them cheaper, doing them quicker.
And one example in London is, youknow, we release all of our data in
(08:06):
the city, and by releasing that dataaround where your bus is, where your
tube is, and this was done a decade ago.
It allowed the customer to engagewith the organization and the city
through their channel of choice.
So if you wanted to use City Mapperor Apple Maps or Google Maps, you can
work with them and engage with them.
But what we care about is ultimately isit driving a behavior change where you
(08:28):
are using public transport or sustainableforms of travel, which then supports
the agenda around reducing congestion,improving people's health, economic
benefits, getting people to jobs, creatingbetter places, better communities.
And a lot of that was becausepeople were getting the right
information at the right time.
They were able to make betterinformed decisions and by making those
(08:50):
informed decisions, they were thenusing public transport more and more.
So I think that's just one exampleof the use of data, but there are
so many others, and I'm sure duringthis discussion others will come up.
. You mentioned the congestion in London,and that's a hot topic here in America.
The congestion charge, becausewe just had our first city
start that earlier this year.
New York City.
Tell us about some of the experience youhad there in London running congestion,
(09:14):
charging, and now the low emission zones.
Yeah, so if we go back all the wayto, 2000, let's say we're talking 20
years ago, we were, we had the first,the world's first congestion charging
zone, and immediately we saw an impact.
But that was a bold policy decisionfor Mayor Livingston at the time
because people were quite usedto just driving into London,
(09:37):
parking and then coming back home.
So in parallel there was a massiveinvestment in buses in the tube
network upgrading the tube networkand encouraging better places.
So people thought therewas an alternative there.
And then what the idea is that onceyou've got the alternative there, you
want to disincentivize the usage of car.
(09:58):
And what we saw very quickly isthere was a reduction in car usage
in Central London, which had a directimpact, not just on congestion,
but also better air quality.
Then what we've seen more recentlyis the ultra low emission zone
that's been created in London, andit was controversial at the time.
Some people, particularly in thesuburbs that weren't so keen on it.
(10:20):
But what we've seen again is as aresult of the ultra low emission
zone, we're seeing reduced congestion.
We're seeing cleaner carsoperating in our cities.
But again, with the Elizabeth Line, withthe Super Loop Bus service and, other
forms of alternatives, people are shiftingto new forms of behavior, and in this
case, sustainable forms of transport.
And I think we're seeing the same inother regions too, where in downtown
(10:44):
or in central parts of town, you know,ideally you wanna make it walking
friendly, cycling friendly, and morepublic transport friendly, which
allows the economy to thrive and allowspeople to have a better experience
of their city and enjoy it much more.
Yeah, there's a fight here in the USover it, the federal administration
is against them doing it, andthey've had a court block that, and
(11:06):
New York wants to keep doing it.
They've, we just did ashow on this few weeks ago.
It's reduced, I think, trafficaround 15 to 20% in the downtown
area during peak periods.
And they've collected hundredsof millions of dollars.
They're putting it towardthe capital cost here.
But you're right, TFL was theleader and now what is in Singapore
and a few other cities as well.
Speaking of London, for those whoare listening, if you wanna know more
(11:27):
about, Elizabeth Line and the SuperLoop that Rikesh was talking about,
we recently had Andy Lord on, theCommissioner of Transport for London.
He kind of described all those in detail.
Rikesh, you and I have a friend,joint friend in Andy Byford.
I guess you gotta be named Andy to bethe head of transit in London lately.
But, now he came over here to theUS and worked for Amtrak for a
(11:47):
while, and now he's been assigneda job with Amtrak to help them.
I just went through Penn Station inNew York yesterday, 'cause I was coming
down on Amtrak through Connecticut,and he's gonna revamp that for us.
You just saw him recently, right?
Yeah.
We met in New York not so long ago.
And Andy, I've really enjoyed workingfor Andy and I think what Andy gave
(12:10):
was he really cared about innovation.
Sometimes people, when it comes toinnovation, think it's a bit shiny.
It's a bit of a widget.
Andy really got it.
You know, he got the policy angleabout new ideas, new thinking.
He got the technologyangle, the process angle.
And I'd always remember if I bump intohim in the lift or if I'm walking down
the corridor, he'd always say to me,how are you solving some of my problems?
(12:33):
That's good.
I love that.
So you would never, ever say, whattechnology are you bringing in?
And, I'm really delightedfor Penn Station.
I think he'll do a fantastic job, and Ithink a lot of this is around leadership.
You know, what we need in transitis we need leaders that are willing
to take some risk, that are willingto think about art of the possible.
Because if we carry on work the sameold way that we have been, the reality
(12:57):
is we don't have enough budgets.
We'll overprescribe solutions to themarket, or we'll end up building ourselves
and it'll only get us so far in terms ofthe North Star and our strategic goals.
So we've got to be more innovative, morecreative, and also more entrepreneurial.
And without a shadow of a doubt,I really enjoyed doing that with
Andy had many others at TFL.
. You know, we talk about policy change and where we need to head.
(13:19):
We're talking big pictureitems you and I are today.
You know, there's a famous bookhere in America and around the world
called, by Stephen Covey, called SevenHabits of Highly Effective People.
And one of the seven habitsis begin with the end in mind.
And for me, the end of publictransportation has always
been the passenger, the rider.
And a lot of times we don'tmake policy decisions.
(13:40):
I've been an elected official, a countyexecutive administrator and a CEO of
transit systems, and I see how policydecisions are made and there's a lot
of tug and pull and anecdotes that aretold, stories that move policy makers.
How do we go back to where it should be?
Where I think you and I share thisopinion, putting the citizen at
the center of our decision making.
(14:03):
It's a great question, Paul.
I think we've just got to meet them.
We've got to go out there, reallyunderstand the pain points,
understand the communities.
I mean, in London we've got so manydiverse cultures, so much spectrum of
wealth, lots of diversity of thought.
And that means that we can't just assumewe know the answers about every region.
(14:24):
So London has 32 or 33 municipalities.
We can't just say, Redbridge wants Xand Brent wants Y, et cetera, et cetera.
Really got to go out there andengage with the local citizen and
understand the different pain points.
And I think we can't just rely oncustomer research because sometimes
we're making decisions based on,we've asked, you know, X people based
(14:48):
on a question that we've designed,and we will say, what do you want?
And.
And then they'll give you an answerand we'll say, this is what they want.
The reality is we need to go outthere, get some real qualitative
research, and we talk about designthinking, start shaping those personas.
Now, people have different views ontransport, depending on the context.
(15:08):
That same person.
Go and ask them what'sworking, what's not working.
Remove that bias and bealso prepared to experiment.
Part of that is try something,see what's working, see what's
not working, how do you pivot?
How can you be more agile?
And I also think there's a bigrole around being transparent.
Yeah.
It's about what's worked, whathasn't worked, why hasn't it worked?
(15:31):
What are you doing next?
And I think sometimes there is arisk not in cities across the world,
that we've got a bunch of peoplethat make really important decisions.
But they're not really getting outthere and really engaging with the
local community because it's hard,'cause as soon as you get different
views and different perspectives,it's harder for you to deliver.
(15:51):
But what I always believe is, you know, ifthe customer wants reliability, they want
safety, they want security, that's great.
Let's give them that.
Then they want to make surethey're getting value for money.
And also they'll probably wantsome innovation and progression.
But how do you make sure youcontextually get that right?
By asking people, by asking families,and really talk to the local politicians,
(16:16):
'cause the beauty of most of ourcities is you have local politicians,
you have citywide politicians.
How do we make sure that engagement'sworking really well, and you're
bringing those community voicesin things that you design.
Otherwise, the risk is a vastmajority will succeed, but there'll
be many that are left behind.
And how do you ensure it'snot leading to inequality?
(16:39):
And you're creating different tiersof communities at a local level.
And the only way you can get thatright is by going there and really
doing that engagement upfront.
And I think this tool around designthinking and really asking the questions
of why, you know, what is the issue,what's the problem that we're trying to
solve, and then come up with solutionsis absolutely the right way forward.
That's great.
We're talking with Rikesh Shaw, one ofthe world's leading innovators when it
(17:02):
comes to public transportation and beyond.
Former Chief Innovation Officer for theworld's largest public transportation
network at Transport for London.
And that's where you're callingin from today, right Rikesh?
I'm just in sunny London.
It's 32 degrees, so really enjoying it.
That's good.
Sunny for a break, huh?
And you're lately you've beenteaching at universities and
(17:24):
lecturing some too, right?
Yeah, I've really enjoyed that.
So I'm lecturing at a series ofinstitutes, both in the UK and
US, and a lot of it is aroundsmart cities, transport innovation
and agile ways of working.
Well, let's dive right into that then.
Give us a free lecture.
We don't have to pay 5,000to hear you at Harvard today.
(17:44):
You're gonna give us,tell us some about that.
Just go wherever you want to with it.
You know, how can we provide marketinnovation in public transportation?
How should cities adopt this to make theircities more mobile and agile, et cetera?
Yeah, I think a lot of this is around,the whole supply chain has changed.
And, you know, whether it's a startupor a scale up or a large corporate
(18:06):
or an academic spin out, we've gota diverse range of suppliers out
there broadly because the barriersto entries have come right down.
And the advances in technologyhave meant that they can create
products much more readily.
And that means that when we're stuck,we're trying to solve some of our
problems around congestion, air quality,greater usage of public transport.
(18:27):
And the list just goes on and on.
How can we be more vulnerable andshare our problems with the market
and say to the market, how canwe co-develop solutions with you?
Because if we think about how it'scurrently done is currently, if
there's a particular problem thatyou're solving, the city's quite
worried about sharing that publicly.
So the first thing that we'lldo is say, let's put a big team
(18:49):
together to solve this problem.
Then if they can't solve that problem,they'll go to the market and they'll
prescribe quite often to the big tierones to say, this is what we would like.
And there's nothingwrong with the tier ones.
They're do a great job.
But what I would love cities to do isto say, we're stuck on this problem.
Can we go to the whole market and say topeople, what types of ideas have you got?
(19:11):
Because we are genuinely stuckon this particular problem.
And then how do you shape the market?
Because in the UK we spend 400 billionpounds a year on public procurement.
In the EU zone, it's about 2 trillion.
And if we go across the globe, 14% ofGDP is spent on public procurement, and
we're not shaping the market well enough.
(19:32):
We're not giving the right signals.
And I remember at TFL when I askedthe market, how can we get better?
They said, you paid us on time.
We trust you.
You give us regular work.
Where you fail is you're not being openenough with your innovation challenges.
And what I would love your listenersto think about is what problems have
you got and how can you frame them tothe market in a new way where you are
(19:56):
genuinely co-creating that solution?
And most of them won't work.
I'll say that upfront, buthow do you learn from it?
Move on.
But the ones that do work, I assureyou, the payback will be significant.
You know, one of the things that I admireabout LA Metro Los Angeles is they have an
open innovation opportunity where you cansubmit ideas from the private sector and
(20:17):
their office of extraordinary innovation,will review it, and it's an opportunity
for the market to speak to needs that havenot yet been crystallized by the agency.
Let's dive in just a little bitmore in that area of procurement,
Rikesh, that's an area where you'vehad done some, a lot of work.
What are some specific ways thatyou've seen transit agencies
improve their procurement efforts?
(20:39):
Yep.
And, and quite often I think theprocurement folk actually, there's always
a route to market and the procurementfolks sometimes, they're brilliant
people, but they worry too much aboutgetting challenged or getting sued.
For me, that's a given.
You know, you shouldn't be gettingchallenged, you should be getting sued if
you're, if you're being open, you're beingtransparent, you're being consistent,
reduces the chances of challenge.
(21:01):
But I think what we need to do much betteris firstly, I think with our procurement
colleagues, engage as early as possible.
Engage as early as possible, say theseare some of the challenges that I have.
And then I think go out tothe market, look far and wide
through horizon scanning.
You know, if your boss says,I need a gen AI strategy, well
(21:21):
that's great, but what's it for?
So you've gotta understand what Gen AImeans and then understand how it aligns
to the problems that you have, similarlywith any forms of new technology.
So I think the first thing isunderstand from the market what
is hype versus what is reality.
Don't worry about the technology,worry about your problem and
see if the technology can help.
(21:42):
I think the second thing is thenonce you start defining your problem,
say to the market, you are, you'vesent a signal to say, we are ready
to procure some things downstream.
But at the moment, with all thisnew technologies, we are not
quite sure what role it can play.
So we want to de-risk it by workingwith you to experiment and see
what works, what doesn't work.
Then the third element is make sure youcreate a very robust procurement strategy
(22:05):
that allows you to do the engagement,the R&D, the experimentation, but also
the scaling through one procedure.
If you start breaking it up,it's not fair on the company that
started with you, who then have toleave and someone else comes in.
And finally, you've got to make sureinternally you are all aligned because
(22:25):
you and I know when we're trying toprocure something in an organization,
in a transit environment, we're not theonly decision maker you might have to
talk to your tech team, your HR team,your sponsorship team, the service owner.
So it's a federated purchase interms of bringing the innovation in.
So how do you make sure all of that'saligned internally and you all take
(22:46):
your badges off and say, this is anaughty problem that we need to solve.
Are we all up for it?
And if we're not, why don't we say no atthe beginning and focus on something else?
So I think we need to create this culture.
How can you be more entrepreneurial?
As a result, how do you make it excitingfor the market to work with you?
Otherwise, frankly, you won't beaddressing some of those challenges
that you have and getting best value.
(23:08):
We have a lot of CEOs listen to our show.
I just got a message yesterday from afriend of mine who got a new CEO job
in a major city here in the US and hetold me, Paul, I listen to your podcast
a lot and I hear what CEOs have to say,and it's helped inform what I'm doing.
Talk to the CEO or the top executive now.
From your perspective, what aresome of the barriers to transit
(23:29):
agencies who are not applying agileand innovative ways of thinking?
How can a CEO or a senior vice presidentof an agency break out of that mold
and be willing to take some, you know,calculated risks to improve things.
I think for innovation towork, it's about leadership.
You know, if we think about howmuch we spend on public procurement,
it's probably about 65 to 70% in anaverage organization, and that means
(23:53):
that leadership needs to be not justhow many tenders are we putting out?
It's around what tenders are comingup in the next 3, 4, 5 years.
So really get your head above the parapetand say, where are the opportunities
that we can actually do things cheaper,can do them better, do them quicker?
And if I procure something now,how do I make sure it's fit
for purpose in 7, 8, 10 years?
(24:15):
So how do you create a moremodular way of working?
So I think my message to the CEOs is thatleadership around asking those challenging
questions of where is the market going?
Where is the new technology going?
What does good looklike in 5, 7, 10 years?
And how do we make sure we'remaking the right decisions now?
Now, because it's not just aboutmake or buy, you know, quite
(24:38):
often that's leadership level.
We say, should we buy thisor should we make this.
Actually spend more time onunderstanding that problem that I
mentioned earlier, and then go to themarket and do your due diligence about
what is safe to buy off the shelf,but perhaps what else is out there
that could be worth taking a punt on.
Because it could createlots of value downstream.
(24:58):
And then how do you work with the marketin a much more entrepreneurial manner?
Say, what does goodvalue look like for me?
What does mutual value look like?
How do I turn my city into a test bed?
So I send that signal to the market, andthe market then says, I'll invest in you.
And then how do I sell that same productto other cities across the world?
And I just don't think we're doing that.
(25:18):
I think at the moment we're just pluggingand buying stuff that's already there
that's been there for many years.
And I don't think we're challenging themarket hard enough to bring new ideas in.
Rikesh, give us your final thoughts aboutwhere we're going and how do we get there?
We've got so many challenges in thecities right now, so I think it's
fundamental to think about whatdoes good look like in our cities.
(25:40):
How do we continuously workwith the wider ecosystem to
co-develop the right solutions?
But it's also not about the now, it'salso about the future, which is what
does our city look like in 5, 10, 15years and how do we make our cities
better and how do we support their growthagenda and ultimately make cities more
livable and make them enjoyable for ourcitizens now and our next generation.
(26:03):
That's wonderful.
Well, it's great kind of idea,ideating with you as they say today.
Talking to big topics.
So many times on our show we'reinto the very granular of running a
transit system, so every now and thenit's good to pull back the lens and
see it from the bigger perspective.
And you're one of the, one of thebest people I know to help us do that.
Hey, if people wanna get ahold of youand maybe, you know, poke you or your
(26:23):
brain for a few more bits of information,how can they get ahold of you?
Yeah, thanks Paul.
So I think coming through LinkedInwould be great, it's Rikesh Shah.
And just look me up.
Yeah, I think that'd be the best way.
Or by you.
They can drop you a noteI'm sure you can connect
And I'll forward it to you.
Yeah, that's right.
Well, thanks again for being our guesttoday from across the pond, as they say.
And, I can't wait to see you atsome upcoming conference where
(26:45):
you're giving a great talk.
Thank you, Paul.
It's been a delight to be on.
Thank you.
Thanks for listening to Transit Unplugged.
I'm executive producer Julie Gates,and this episode was created by host
and producer Paul Comfort, producerChris O'Keefe, associate producer Cyndi
Raskin, and podcast intern Des Gates.
(27:08):
Transit Unplugged is being broughtto you by Modaxo, passionate
about moving the world's people.
If you wanna dive deeper behind thetransit headlines and get boots on the
ground intel on important updates likethe Trump Administration's transit
priorities, or how to get funding,check out Transit Unplugged Insider,
our new YouTube show where Paul andI take you inside today's hot topics.
(27:29):
Paul knows what's going on inWashington DC and has the inside scoop.
He's taking a lot of meetings witha lot of people and we wanna make
sure you know what's going on.
You can watch and subscribe to TransitUnplugged Insider on the Transit
Unplugged Podcast page on YouTube.
Thanks for listening, and we'll catch youon the next episode of Transit Unplugged.
Public transportation leadersare looking for ways to innovate.
And to improve how they procure products.
And that's exactly what we talkabout today with Rikesh Shah.
I'm Paul Comfort, andthis is Transit Unplugged.
And Rikesh Shah was the ChiefInnovation Officer at the world's
largest public transportation network,which is Transport for London.
That's when I firstmet him many years ago.
(00:22):
And now he's a consultant and a lecturerat major universities and does some work
with governments over in Europe and inthe UK and I invited him on to continue
the big conversation that we startedlast week, where we talked about what
is public transportation's focus, whatshould it be here in the US in particular,
(00:43):
when less than 5% of the peopleride public transit, but 84% of most
people in communities see value in it.
When Mark Aesch and Alvin McBurroughalso talked about the role of
artificial intelligence andimproving public transportation.
And on this one we continuekind of a big high idea.
As we talk about innovation, we talk aboutthe role of technology in improving public
(01:05):
transportation, and in particular in thelatter half, we talk in detail about an
area that Rikesh has much experience in,which is how to improve the procurement
process from a macro perspective,if you're an executive in an agency.
I think you'll find this kind of a great,almost like a give and take lecture
with one of the top minds in innovation,in public transportation in cities.
My good friend Rikesh Shah from London.
(01:30):
Great to have you withus today on the podcast.
Once again, Rikesh, one ofour few, two-time guests, man.
It's wonderful to be here, Paul.
It's a delight to be here again, and thank
you for having me.
As I said in the opening of theshow, Rikesh is one of these, globe
trotting innovation experts thatpublic transportation agencies
and other groups around the worldlook to, to help them improve
(01:52):
operations and efficiencies and data.
Rikesh, tell us all about yourbackground and how you got
to where you're at right now.
Yeah, Paul, I think first it just startedon the dinner table many years back.
My father worked for Transportfor London or what was London
Underground in those days.
And he served the city for 38 years on theoperational side, on the Metro, the Tube.
(02:14):
And, you know, every day we'dhave conversations about his day.
And how, you know, he was responsiblefor the station, how he really cared
about the local community and he reallycared about everyone's experiences.
And that really startedto get into my DNA.
And then I remember at university Istudied economics and public policy
(02:36):
and I remember one of the modules on,on transport around, road congestion
and infrastructure programs.
And I really enjoyed writing that essay.
And then I was also at the same time,very fascinated about cities and I was
fascinated about new organizations.
And that took me to about 2001where I joined Transport for London.
(02:57):
It was a completely new entity under thefirst mayor of London at the time was Ken
Livingston, Mayor Livingston, and at thattime we had a few hundred people when
I joined TFL, it's about 300 people andnow it's a 30,000 person organization.
Oh.
Oh wow.
Oh man.
The growth was incredible.
Yeah, and at TFL, I worked on awide range of programs from, in the
(03:20):
customer directorate about deliveringcustomer value, in the marketing
team, in the planning team, butalso in the communications teams.
And then more recently, I was in thedata and digital team where I set the
open innovation function, but also beeninvolved with things like open data.
So it's been an incredibleexperience, a great learning ground.
(03:41):
One of the best periods of my life.
And then more recently I've,now I'm doing three things.
I think rather than work with oneorganization, I'm working with
three different entities now.
So one is I work on a governmentfunded program on how do you use
procurement to drive more innovationin the public sector beyond transport.
, I also do some lecturing.
(04:01):
. And that's fascinating.
And, the third area is I also havemy own consultancy business where I'm
advising both cities but also industryplayers from startups, scale ups, and
corporates on how do we create bettervalue through public private partnerships.
You know, we just had on the podcasta few weeks ago, a friend of mine,
Mark Aesch, who talks about thetroubles with transit in America.
(04:25):
Basically, you know, the averageplace in America outside of New
York City, less than 5% of peopleride public transportation.
But 84% of the people see value in it.
So his argument is we shouldn't focusso much on getting from 4% to 4.1%.
We should focus on ensuring that whatthe 84% see value in, that we meet
(04:47):
that, we show them, we're doing that.
So they value, you know,helping people get to jobs.
That's what they value.
They value the fact that we'reproviding mobility to the elderly
and people with disabilities.
And they also value that we'rehelping people of lower income
families get to jobs and healthcare.
Those are things they see valueof in public transportation.
You're like the king of big data, Rikesh.
So talk to us about, you know,how is transport changing?
(05:11):
How can we better meet the needs of thecommunity and tell that story to the 84%
using technology and big data, et cetera?
I think mobility is in such an excitingperiod when it comes to new technologies
that if I go back to when my careerstarted, just my job, you know, the
fax machine or a CD or even just memoswas the way we worked with each other.
(05:32):
Even email was quite new when I started.
And you know, if we think aboutoperations, how that's changed.
You know, we're verypetrol-centric in the past.
We're now talking about electrification,we're about sustainability.
But I think the area around customerand technology is at an incredible,
interesting, and an opportunistic period.
(05:52):
And I think the word customeris critical, not passenger.
And I think when we start gettingthink about who we're serving,
we are there serving the citizen.
We're not simply there forperformance targets and just simply
saying, the buses arrived on time.
If that bus arrives on time, is itright from the customer's perspective?
Is it when the customer needs it?
And also customers don'tjust think about the car.
(06:14):
They're very multimodal.
So they use all forms of transport.
, They all have different personas.
In the morning, I might be a car driver.
In the afternoon, I might be a cyclist.
In the evening, I might be picking upmy kids and might go back to the car.
So again, there's very different personas.
Your journey in central London isvery different to your journey in
suburban London, or even if you'rein the outskirts, where I am,
(06:35):
I'm just on the border of London.
And I think the city'schanged, and I think customer's
expectations have changed.
So the city's changedbecause now it's a 24/7 city.
You know, whether it's movement offreight, movement of people, the city's
always on, particularly London, and Ithink expectations are now much higher
because if you think about an averagecustomer's experience, they might be
(06:59):
ordering their Amazon in the morning,or they might be using McDonald's in
the afternoon or something else, andsuddenly they have a good customer
experience, arguably, and then whenthey come to transport, they just
sometimes say, why isn't it just as good?
So, I think expectations are higher.
And you touched on it in your question.
You know, the opportunities we have withnew technology, whether it's big data,
(07:23):
whether it's cloud, whether it's therole of AI and machine learning, the rate
of technological change is incredible.
And I think what we need to get muchbetter at is get getting better at
what outcomes do we want for our city?
How do we better understand our customer?
How do we better understandthe offering that we want to
provide and when we provide it?
(07:46):
And ultimately, I think what we wantto do is use data, use new technologies
to embrace more value, and that'sabout doing things better, doing
them cheaper, doing them quicker.
And one example in London is, youknow, we release all of our data in
(08:06):
the city, and by releasing that dataaround where your bus is, where your
tube is, and this was done a decade ago.
It allowed the customer to engagewith the organization and the city
through their channel of choice.
So if you wanted to use City Mapperor Apple Maps or Google Maps, you can
work with them and engage with them.
But what we care about is ultimately isit driving a behavior change where you
(08:28):
are using public transport or sustainableforms of travel, which then supports
the agenda around reducing congestion,improving people's health, economic
benefits, getting people to jobs, creatingbetter places, better communities.
And a lot of that was becausepeople were getting the right
information at the right time.
They were able to make betterinformed decisions and by making those
(08:50):
informed decisions, they were thenusing public transport more and more.
So I think that's just one exampleof the use of data, but there are
so many others, and I'm sure duringthis discussion others will come up.
. You mentioned the congestion in London,and that's a hot topic here in America.
The congestion charge, becausewe just had our first city
start that earlier this year.
New York City.
Tell us about some of the experience youhad there in London running congestion,
(09:14):
charging, and now the low emission zones.
Yeah, so if we go back all the wayto, 2000, let's say we're talking 20
years ago, we were, we had the first,the world's first congestion charging
zone, and immediately we saw an impact.
But that was a bold policy decisionfor Mayor Livingston at the time
because people were quite usedto just driving into London,
(09:37):
parking and then coming back home.
So in parallel there was a massiveinvestment in buses in the tube
network upgrading the tube networkand encouraging better places.
So people thought therewas an alternative there.
And then what the idea is that onceyou've got the alternative there, you
want to disincentivize the usage of car.
(09:58):
And what we saw very quickly isthere was a reduction in car usage
in Central London, which had a directimpact, not just on congestion,
but also better air quality.
Then what we've seen more recentlyis the ultra low emission zone
that's been created in London, andit was controversial at the time.
Some people, particularly in thesuburbs that weren't so keen on it.
(10:20):
But what we've seen again is as aresult of the ultra low emission
zone, we're seeing reduced congestion.
We're seeing cleaner carsoperating in our cities.
But again, with the Elizabeth Line, withthe Super Loop Bus service and, other
forms of alternatives, people are shiftingto new forms of behavior, and in this
case, sustainable forms of transport.
And I think we're seeing the same inother regions too, where in downtown
(10:44):
or in central parts of town, you know,ideally you wanna make it walking
friendly, cycling friendly, and morepublic transport friendly, which
allows the economy to thrive and allowspeople to have a better experience
of their city and enjoy it much more.
Yeah, there's a fight here in the USover it, the federal administration
is against them doing it, andthey've had a court block that, and
(11:06):
New York wants to keep doing it.
They've, we just did ashow on this few weeks ago.
It's reduced, I think, trafficaround 15 to 20% in the downtown
area during peak periods.
And they've collected hundredsof millions of dollars.
They're putting it towardthe capital cost here.
But you're right, TFL was theleader and now what is in Singapore
and a few other cities as well.
Speaking of London, for those whoare listening, if you wanna know more
(11:27):
about, Elizabeth Line and the SuperLoop that Rikesh was talking about,
we recently had Andy Lord on, theCommissioner of Transport for London.
He kind of described all those in detail.
Rikesh, you and I have a friend,joint friend in Andy Byford.
I guess you gotta be named Andy to bethe head of transit in London lately.
But, now he came over here to theUS and worked for Amtrak for a
(11:47):
while, and now he's been assigneda job with Amtrak to help them.
I just went through Penn Station inNew York yesterday, 'cause I was coming
down on Amtrak through Connecticut,and he's gonna revamp that for us.
You just saw him recently, right?
Yeah.
We met in New York not so long ago.
And Andy, I've really enjoyed workingfor Andy and I think what Andy gave
(12:10):
was he really cared about innovation.
Sometimes people, when it comes toinnovation, think it's a bit shiny.
It's a bit of a widget.
Andy really got it.
You know, he got the policy angleabout new ideas, new thinking.
He got the technologyangle, the process angle.
And I'd always remember if I bump intohim in the lift or if I'm walking down
the corridor, he'd always say to me,how are you solving some of my problems?
(12:33):
That's good.
I love that.
So you would never, ever say, whattechnology are you bringing in?
And, I'm really delightedfor Penn Station.
I think he'll do a fantastic job, and Ithink a lot of this is around leadership.
You know, what we need in transitis we need leaders that are willing
to take some risk, that are willingto think about art of the possible.
Because if we carry on work the sameold way that we have been, the reality
(12:57):
is we don't have enough budgets.
We'll overprescribe solutions to themarket, or we'll end up building ourselves
and it'll only get us so far in terms ofthe North Star and our strategic goals.
So we've got to be more innovative, morecreative, and also more entrepreneurial.
And without a shadow of a doubt,I really enjoyed doing that with
Andy had many others at TFL.
. You know, we talk about policy change and where we need to head.
(13:19):
We're talking big pictureitems you and I are today.
You know, there's a famous bookhere in America and around the world
called, by Stephen Covey, called SevenHabits of Highly Effective People.
And one of the seven habitsis begin with the end in mind.
And for me, the end of publictransportation has always
been the passenger, the rider.
And a lot of times we don'tmake policy decisions.
(13:40):
I've been an elected official, a countyexecutive administrator and a CEO of
transit systems, and I see how policydecisions are made and there's a lot
of tug and pull and anecdotes that aretold, stories that move policy makers.
How do we go back to where it should be?
Where I think you and I share thisopinion, putting the citizen at
the center of our decision making.
(14:03):
It's a great question, Paul.
I think we've just got to meet them.
We've got to go out there, reallyunderstand the pain points,
understand the communities.
I mean, in London we've got so manydiverse cultures, so much spectrum of
wealth, lots of diversity of thought.
And that means that we can't just assumewe know the answers about every region.
(14:24):
So London has 32 or 33 municipalities.
We can't just say, Redbridge wants Xand Brent wants Y, et cetera, et cetera.
Really got to go out there andengage with the local citizen and
understand the different pain points.
And I think we can't just rely oncustomer research because sometimes
we're making decisions based on,we've asked, you know, X people based
(14:48):
on a question that we've designed,and we will say, what do you want?
And.
And then they'll give you an answerand we'll say, this is what they want.
The reality is we need to go outthere, get some real qualitative
research, and we talk about designthinking, start shaping those personas.
Now, people have different views ontransport, depending on the context.
(15:08):
That same person.
Go and ask them what'sworking, what's not working.
Remove that bias and bealso prepared to experiment.
Part of that is try something,see what's working, see what's
not working, how do you pivot?
How can you be more agile?
And I also think there's a bigrole around being transparent.
Yeah.
It's about what's worked, whathasn't worked, why hasn't it worked?
(15:31):
What are you doing next?
And I think sometimes there is arisk not in cities across the world,
that we've got a bunch of peoplethat make really important decisions.
But they're not really getting outthere and really engaging with the
local community because it's hard,'cause as soon as you get different
views and different perspectives,it's harder for you to deliver.
(15:51):
But what I always believe is, you know, ifthe customer wants reliability, they want
safety, they want security, that's great.
Let's give them that.
Then they want to make surethey're getting value for money.
And also they'll probably wantsome innovation and progression.
But how do you make sure youcontextually get that right?
By asking people, by asking families,and really talk to the local politicians,
(16:16):
'cause the beauty of most of ourcities is you have local politicians,
you have citywide politicians.
How do we make sure that engagement'sworking really well, and you're
bringing those community voicesin things that you design.
Otherwise, the risk is a vastmajority will succeed, but there'll
be many that are left behind.
And how do you ensure it'snot leading to inequality?
(16:39):
And you're creating different tiersof communities at a local level.
And the only way you can get thatright is by going there and really
doing that engagement upfront.
And I think this tool around designthinking and really asking the questions
of why, you know, what is the issue,what's the problem that we're trying to
solve, and then come up with solutionsis absolutely the right way forward.
That's great.
We're talking with Rikesh Shaw, one ofthe world's leading innovators when it
(17:02):
comes to public transportation and beyond.
Former Chief Innovation Officer for theworld's largest public transportation
network at Transport for London.
And that's where you're callingin from today, right Rikesh?
I'm just in sunny London.
It's 32 degrees, so really enjoying it.
That's good.
Sunny for a break, huh?
And you're lately you've beenteaching at universities and
(17:24):
lecturing some too, right?
Yeah, I've really enjoyed that.
So I'm lecturing at a series ofinstitutes, both in the UK and
US, and a lot of it is aroundsmart cities, transport innovation
and agile ways of working.
Well, let's dive right into that then.
Give us a free lecture.
We don't have to pay 5,000to hear you at Harvard today.
(17:44):
You're gonna give us,tell us some about that.
Just go wherever you want to with it.
You know, how can we provide marketinnovation in public transportation?
How should cities adopt this to make theircities more mobile and agile, et cetera?
Yeah, I think a lot of this is around,the whole supply chain has changed.
And, you know, whether it's a startupor a scale up or a large corporate
(18:06):
or an academic spin out, we've gota diverse range of suppliers out
there broadly because the barriersto entries have come right down.
And the advances in technologyhave meant that they can create
products much more readily.
And that means that when we're stuck,we're trying to solve some of our
problems around congestion, air quality,greater usage of public transport.
(18:27):
And the list just goes on and on.
How can we be more vulnerable andshare our problems with the market
and say to the market, how canwe co-develop solutions with you?
Because if we think about how it'scurrently done is currently, if
there's a particular problem thatyou're solving, the city's quite
worried about sharing that publicly.
So the first thing that we'lldo is say, let's put a big team
(18:49):
together to solve this problem.
Then if they can't solve that problem,they'll go to the market and they'll
prescribe quite often to the big tierones to say, this is what we would like.
And there's nothingwrong with the tier ones.
They're do a great job.
But what I would love cities to do isto say, we're stuck on this problem.
Can we go to the whole market and say topeople, what types of ideas have you got?
(19:11):
Because we are genuinely stuckon this particular problem.
And then how do you shape the market?
Because in the UK we spend 400 billionpounds a year on public procurement.
In the EU zone, it's about 2 trillion.
And if we go across the globe, 14% ofGDP is spent on public procurement, and
we're not shaping the market well enough.
(19:32):
We're not giving the right signals.
And I remember at TFL when I askedthe market, how can we get better?
They said, you paid us on time.
We trust you.
You give us regular work.
Where you fail is you're not being openenough with your innovation challenges.
And what I would love your listenersto think about is what problems have
you got and how can you frame them tothe market in a new way where you are
(19:56):
genuinely co-creating that solution?
And most of them won't work.
I'll say that upfront, buthow do you learn from it?
Move on.
But the ones that do work, I assureyou, the payback will be significant.
You know, one of the things that I admireabout LA Metro Los Angeles is they have an
open innovation opportunity where you cansubmit ideas from the private sector and
(20:17):
their office of extraordinary innovation,will review it, and it's an opportunity
for the market to speak to needs that havenot yet been crystallized by the agency.
Let's dive in just a little bitmore in that area of procurement,
Rikesh, that's an area where you'vehad done some, a lot of work.
What are some specific ways thatyou've seen transit agencies
improve their procurement efforts?
(20:39):
Yep.
And, and quite often I think theprocurement folk actually, there's always
a route to market and the procurementfolks sometimes, they're brilliant
people, but they worry too much aboutgetting challenged or getting sued.
For me, that's a given.
You know, you shouldn't be gettingchallenged, you should be getting sued if
you're, if you're being open, you're beingtransparent, you're being consistent,
reduces the chances of challenge.
(21:01):
But I think what we need to do much betteris firstly, I think with our procurement
colleagues, engage as early as possible.
Engage as early as possible, say theseare some of the challenges that I have.
And then I think go out tothe market, look far and wide
through horizon scanning.
You know, if your boss says,I need a gen AI strategy, well
(21:21):
that's great, but what's it for?
So you've gotta understand what Gen AImeans and then understand how it aligns
to the problems that you have, similarlywith any forms of new technology.
So I think the first thing isunderstand from the market what
is hype versus what is reality.
Don't worry about the technology,worry about your problem and
see if the technology can help.
(21:42):
I think the second thing is thenonce you start defining your problem,
say to the market, you are, you'vesent a signal to say, we are ready
to procure some things downstream.
But at the moment, with all thisnew technologies, we are not
quite sure what role it can play.
So we want to de-risk it by workingwith you to experiment and see
what works, what doesn't work.
Then the third element is make sure youcreate a very robust procurement strategy
(22:05):
that allows you to do the engagement,the R&D, the experimentation, but also
the scaling through one procedure.
If you start breaking it up,it's not fair on the company that
started with you, who then have toleave and someone else comes in.
And finally, you've got to make sureinternally you are all aligned because
(22:25):
you and I know when we're trying toprocure something in an organization,
in a transit environment, we're not theonly decision maker you might have to
talk to your tech team, your HR team,your sponsorship team, the service owner.
So it's a federated purchase interms of bringing the innovation in.
So how do you make sure all of that'saligned internally and you all take
(22:46):
your badges off and say, this is anaughty problem that we need to solve.
Are we all up for it?
And if we're not, why don't we say no atthe beginning and focus on something else?
So I think we need to create this culture.
How can you be more entrepreneurial?
As a result, how do you make it excitingfor the market to work with you?
Otherwise, frankly, you won't beaddressing some of those challenges
that you have and getting best value.
(23:08):
We have a lot of CEOs listen to our show.
I just got a message yesterday from afriend of mine who got a new CEO job
in a major city here in the US and hetold me, Paul, I listen to your podcast
a lot and I hear what CEOs have to say,and it's helped inform what I'm doing.
Talk to the CEO or the top executive now.
From your perspective, what aresome of the barriers to transit
(23:29):
agencies who are not applying agileand innovative ways of thinking?
How can a CEO or a senior vice presidentof an agency break out of that mold
and be willing to take some, you know,calculated risks to improve things.
I think for innovation towork, it's about leadership.
You know, if we think about howmuch we spend on public procurement,
it's probably about 65 to 70% in anaverage organization, and that means
(23:53):
that leadership needs to be not justhow many tenders are we putting out?
It's around what tenders are comingup in the next 3, 4, 5 years.
So really get your head above the parapetand say, where are the opportunities
that we can actually do things cheaper,can do them better, do them quicker?
And if I procure something now,how do I make sure it's fit
for purpose in 7, 8, 10 years?
(24:15):
So how do you create a moremodular way of working?
So I think my message to the CEOs is thatleadership around asking those challenging
questions of where is the market going?
Where is the new technology going?
What does good looklike in 5, 7, 10 years?
And how do we make sure we'remaking the right decisions now?
Now, because it's not just aboutmake or buy, you know, quite
(24:38):
often that's leadership level.
We say, should we buy thisor should we make this.
Actually spend more time onunderstanding that problem that I
mentioned earlier, and then go to themarket and do your due diligence about
what is safe to buy off the shelf,but perhaps what else is out there
that could be worth taking a punt on.
Because it could createlots of value downstream.
(24:58):
And then how do you work with the marketin a much more entrepreneurial manner?
Say, what does goodvalue look like for me?
What does mutual value look like?
How do I turn my city into a test bed?
So I send that signal to the market, andthe market then says, I'll invest in you.
And then how do I sell that same productto other cities across the world?
And I just don't think we're doing that.
(25:18):
I think at the moment we're just pluggingand buying stuff that's already there
that's been there for many years.
And I don't think we're challenging themarket hard enough to bring new ideas in.
Rikesh, give us your final thoughts aboutwhere we're going and how do we get there?
We've got so many challenges in thecities right now, so I think it's
fundamental to think about whatdoes good look like in our cities.
(25:40):
How do we continuously workwith the wider ecosystem to
co-develop the right solutions?
But it's also not about the now, it'salso about the future, which is what
does our city look like in 5, 10, 15years and how do we make our cities
better and how do we support their growthagenda and ultimately make cities more
livable and make them enjoyable for ourcitizens now and our next generation.
(26:03):
That's wonderful.
Well, it's great kind of idea,ideating with you as they say today.
Talking to big topics.
So many times on our show we'reinto the very granular of running a
transit system, so every now and thenit's good to pull back the lens and
see it from the bigger perspective.
And you're one of the, one of thebest people I know to help us do that.
Hey, if people wanna get ahold of youand maybe, you know, poke you or your
(26:23):
brain for a few more bits of information,how can they get ahold of you?
Yeah, thanks Paul.
So I think coming through LinkedInwould be great, it's Rikesh Shah.
And just look me up.
Yeah, I think that'd be the best way.
Or by you.
They can drop you a noteI'm sure you can connect
And I'll forward it to you.
Yeah, that's right.
Well, thanks again for being our guesttoday from across the pond, as they say.
And, I can't wait to see you atsome upcoming conference where
(26:45):
you're giving a great talk.
Thank you, Paul.
It's been a delight to be on.
Thank you.
Thanks for listening to Transit Unplugged.
I'm executive producer Julie Gates,and this episode was created by host
and producer Paul Comfort, producerChris O'Keefe, associate producer Cyndi
Raskin, and podcast intern Des Gates.
(27:08):
Transit Unplugged is being broughtto you by Modaxo, passionate
about moving the world's people.
If you wanna dive deeper behind thetransit headlines and get boots on the
ground intel on important updates likethe Trump Administration's transit
priorities, or how to get funding,check out Transit Unplugged Insider,
our new YouTube show where Paul andI take you inside today's hot topics.
(27:29):
Paul knows what's going on inWashington DC and has the inside scoop.
He's taking a lot of meetings witha lot of people and we wanna make
sure you know what's going on.
You can watch and subscribe to TransitUnplugged Insider on the Transit
Unplugged Podcast page on YouTube.
Thanks for listening, and we'll catch youon the next episode of Transit Unplugged.
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