February 5, 2025 • 33 mins
In 2016, Brad Miller, CEO of the Pinellas Suncoast Transit Authority (PSTA), had an idea. What if subsidized rides with Transportation Networking Companies (TNCs) like Uber and Lyft could help people in his community get where they needed to go. What if you could get a subsidized Uber ride at the end of your overnight shift when regular transit isn’t running and be able to get home safely? This revolution in public transit and was seen as a model for transit innovation and quickly spread across the country. The next logical question was then: could we do the same for paratransit and offer better service to those riders and even at a lower cost?
The answer was yes. And now across the U.S., paratransit riders can book a ride at the last minute—just like non-disabled people can—to get where they need to go. But all that could come crashing to a halt if proposed changes to the Federal Transit Administration (FTA) rules about using TNCs in public transit come into effect. This episode features Brad and other experts talking about how TNCs have helped the disabled community and what the impact on people’s lives will be if transit agencies have to stop using Uber and Lyft for paratransit and other on-demand rides.
Featured Guests:
• Brad Miller: CEO of the Pinellas Suncoast Transit Authority (PSTA) in Florida. Brad shares his pioneering work in integrating TNCs into paratransit services, highlighting the significant benefits and cost savings achieved. He also discusses the looming threat posed by new Federal regulations that could disrupt these services.
• Dr. Judy Shanley: National Director of Transportation, Mobility, and Youth at the National Office of Easterseals. Judy brings her extensive experience in advocating for individuals with disabilities and emphasizes the importance of innovative paratransit solutions. She voices concerns about how the proposed regulations could limit transportation options for people with disabilities.
• Alex Elegudin: CEO of Wheeling Forward and former Accessibility Chief at the New York City MTA. Alex provides a legal and advocacy perspective, detailing his efforts to improve accessibility in transportation. He discusses his recent Newsweek article that highlights the challenges and potential setbacks of the proposed regulatory changes.
• Jen Shepherd: Head of Uber's Global Transit Business. Jen explains Uber's role in supporting transit agencies and the potential consequences of the new regulations on Uber's ability to provide paratransit services. She underscores the safety measures Uber has in place and the broader implications for mobility if these services are curtailed.
Link to the proposed rule changes on the U.S. Federal Register: https://www.regulations.gov/docket/FTA-2024-0020
Coming up next week, we have the fourth of five episodes Paul recorded while visiting Australia. This week we feature just a few of the amazing women leading public transit in Australia and joining Paul, special co-host Kelly Chapman.
00:00 Introduction and Background
01:25 Meet the Panelists
03:11 Brad Miller's Innovative Approach
06:08 Challenges and Threats to Paratransit Services
07:07 Judy Shanley on Easterseals' Role
09:29 Alex Elegudin's Perspective
20:12 Jen Shepherd on Uber's Involvement
30:52 Conclusion and Call to Action
32:12 Coming up next week on Transit Unplugged
If you have a question or comment, email us at info@transitunplugged.com.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:05):
I remember a few years back when I wasCEO of the MTA, probably eight years ago,
we were looking for a way to continueto provide amazing service when it
comes to paratransit operations, butdo it in a more cost efficient manner.
And I heard about a CEO in Floridawho just started doing something
like that, and that was Brad Miller.
Brad is a, uh, and was CEO of thePinellas Suncoast Transit Authority,
(00:28):
and he started using, this is in theClearwater, Florida area, he started
using these TNCs, transport networkingcompanies, to help him do things like,
you know, provide late night service,maybe rescue rides, first and last
mile solution, and again, potentiallysupplementing paratransit service
with customers who would opt into it.
So, uh, the, this, the idea continuedto develop, you're probably aware of
(00:53):
this, and now cities across the countryare using various, um, paratransit
supplemental service through companieslike Uber and Lyft and, uh, and
even ADA service with companies likeUZURV and SilverRide and others.
So, today we're going to continue totalk about this new advent of service
provision where transit agencies canutilize services such as Uber and Lyft
(01:18):
and others to supplement their service.
But also, there's a threat on the horizonthat we'll tell you about at the end of
the show which you may want to hear about.
So, Brad Miller kicks off the show today.
He is the CEO, as mentioned, of thePinellas Suncoast Transit Authority.
He is the regional transit authorityserving the Tampa Bay region on the
west coast of Florida with more than300 buses and 920 dedicated employees.
(01:38):
We also have Dr. Judy Shanley,who is the National Director of
Transportation, Mobility, and Youthat the National Office of Easterseals.
The National Easterseals Societyhas been one of the real leaders
in paratransit operations.
She directs several U. S. Departmentof Transportation projects funded
by the FTA and other groups.
We also have on here Alex Elugodin.
(01:59):
He is CEO of Wheeling Forward andthe former Accessibility Chief of the
largest paratransit operation in America.
For In New York City,the New York City MTA.
He has spent almost a decadeworking as an advocate and mentor
of the disability community.
He wrote an article in Newsweekmagazine that we talked about today
that really brought this issue tothe forefront, this challenge to
(02:19):
utilizing companies like Uber and Lyft.
He'll talk about that today.
And then we brought on Jen Shepherd wholeads Uber's global transit business.
She's a partner to cities and transitagencies With a mission of making transit
more accessible to those who need it most.
This is a fascinating look into howTNCs, like Uber, are used by public
transit agencies and this potentialthreat that's looming on the horizon
(02:41):
that came in through regulationscoming out of Washington, of course.
And she'll talk about that, as willthe other guests on the show, on
this episode of Transit Unplugged.
Well, great to have a great panel withus today, talking about what I consider
one of the latest and greatest trendsin public transportation, and that
is the use of TNCs, micro mobility,to assist public transit agencies
(03:02):
to provide paratransit service.
And as mentioned in the opening,we've got a great panel with us.
One of them is a goodfriend of mine, Brad Miller.
Brad and I have been buddiesfor well over a decade.
And Brad, I remember back when Iwas CEO of MTA in Baltimore, I heard
this guy down in Florida was doingsomething cool with Uber because we
were all concerned about costs, right?
The cost of providing paratransit service.
(03:23):
Like, I can give you an example.
At Baltimore, I had an $800 millionoperating budget, and I spent 100
million of that on paratransit.
This was eight years ago.
And and the cost was going upat six to 8% a year, whereas my
regular costs were going up 2%.
So I was like, this is unsustainable.
There has to be a solution.
And it turned out there was, and you'rethe one that kind of found it for us.
(03:44):
Tell us about what you didand what you're doing now.
Well, thank you Paul, and thank you forhaving, me and the other great people
that are on this podcast on this.
On this podcast.
Um, yeah, you're right.
I mean, that was back in 2016.
PSTA started off small, but we werethe first agency in the country
to have a contract with Uber.
And, um, that was, thatwas a great moment.
(04:05):
I don't think you and other people thatheard about it probably had any idea
what was really going on with it, butjust fast forward from then to now.
And, it has been a completegame changer, in my opinion, for
mobility in my community, downhere in St. Petersburg, Florida.
The, of course, we started off with afirst mile, last mile, kind of, program
(04:26):
where people can get a discountedUber ride to and from a bus stop.
We extended that to late night services.
You know, after the buses stop running,people maybe get to a job on the
bus, but then they need to get home.
A low income person, wehave a program for that.
Where they can catch adiscounted Uber or Lyft ride.
And then finally we receiveda federal, one of the first
(04:48):
federal transit administrationsandbox grants back in 2017.
We were part of the first groupto test whether TNCs could be
effective for paratransit use.
And so we launched that and oh mygosh that has just been such a huge...
I think a very, very positive thingfor people with disabilities in our,
(05:09):
in our county, the mobility of beingable to get a ride like, like you and
I can, Paul, on a moment's notice.
We, we of course operate our traditionalparatransit, we provide our regular
paratransit options, and then we providewhat we call, down here, Mobility On
Demand, essentially that you can geta real time ride, when you need it.
And so people might take, schedulea paratransit ride to the doctor,
(05:32):
but, you know, no one knows whentheir doctor is going to actually see
them because you might wait forever.
So, they'll, I'll justcall you when I'm done.
And then, then they get a ride home.
Or, hey, I don't, I don't needparatransit just for medical appointments.
I can go to the movies.
I can go to Applebee's andgo to lunch with my daughter.
Or, I can just be a normal person.
I've had many people inthe transit industry.
Say, Brad, what you guys are doingdown there is, people in the disability
(05:56):
community are saying you're actuallytreating us like everybody else.
Giving us the mobility that everybodyelse already has and it's really been
gratifying to me in my career to justsee the benefit that this has provided.
Now, we're on this podcast todaybecause there is a threat to that,
to that great mobility that weare, partnering with our TNCs with.
(06:17):
The federal government, issued a, aproposed change to the rules, governing,
the use of TNCs by transit agencies atthe very end of the Biden administration
and on December 30th is when it waspublished in the Federal Register.
And so now, we're We're coming intothis kind of, question period, with
the new Administration coming in,are they going to enact these rules?
(06:38):
there is a, publiccomment period going on.
Essentially what would happen is thefederal government would prohibit,
PSTA, my agency, or any transit agencyin the country from contracting,
essentially contracting with a TNC.
And that would, that would force meand hundreds of other cities to cancel
our, these great mobility programs.
(07:00):
And so that's why we're, we're tryingto get the word out about this and
get, get a good reaction from people.
That's something, Brad.
Well, let's jump over to you, Judy.
I've always, admired theNational Easterseals Society.
You all have been really,leaders in this industry.
I remember back when I started, like, inthe late 1980s in this industry, running
a small bus system here in the county.
We were always getting our trainingprograms from the National Easterseals
(07:22):
Society about how to train ourdrivers, et cetera, to be, you know,
to help people with disabilities.
And now you're the, you're theNational Director of Transportation
and Mobility and Youth, there atthe National Office of Easterseals.
Tell us about, you know, whatyou're all's role is in this whole
issue and where you're at on it.
Sure, thank you andthank you for having me.
I feel very privilegedto be part of this panel.
(07:42):
Easterseals has been a leader inthis space for over a hundred years.
We were actually at the table whenthe provisions in the Americans
with Disabilities Act came to bearound transportation opportunities
and paratransit services forindividuals with disabilities.
And I think, the innovations thatwe've seen in the transportation
(08:03):
sector, and particularly withparatransit have been phenomenal.
The use of transportation networkcompanies and other modes to to complement
existing services has been amazing andessentially transportation and paratransit
options and the innovation with TNCshas created opportunities for people.
(08:24):
The Americans with Disabilities Actsuggests that or requires mandates that
the paratransit service be comparableto a fixed route service, but often it's
not comparable to fixed route service.
And it doesn't give riders, it doesn'tgive people with disabilities who
we want to be included in society.
We want people to access jobsand education and health care.
(08:47):
It doesn't give them the sameopportunity as Brad said, as you and me.
And so I think thinking innovatively andcreatively about the ways that people
with disabilities can access services andcommunity settings is really critical.
And paratransit has beenimportant to that effort.
And now the whole innovation in termsof paratransit has been important.
(09:10):
And, you know, what's going on interms of the, the, the, changing,
legislation could potentially compromisethe ability of people to be integrated
and included in their communities.
So, yeah, Easterseals is excitedto be part of this conversation.
So thanks.
Thank you, Judy.
That's great.
And Alex, you actually just wrote anarticle in Newsweek magazine dude.
(09:33):
Big time, uh, that I, that Ihappened to read yesterday, uh,
which really framed this issue well.
Tell us a little bit about yourbackground, what got you, you
know, interested in this issue.
Obviously, you've got a personal,connection to it because you use the
services and, and you're an attorney andso you've been involved in a lot of this.
Talk to us about you, thegroup you formed, and what your
thoughts are on this whole topic.
Absolutely.
Thanks so much.
(09:53):
I mean, I've got a little bit of,uh, career background in this.
I mean, I was originally the accessibilityprogram manager leading, accessibility
initiatives at the New York City TaxiLimousine Commission back around 2015.
And at that time, we were working withUber, to create, the wheelchair accessible
service model, for their servicesgenerally, not just paratransit in New
(10:16):
York City, and work a lot on kind of taxiand integration issues for accessibility.
Later on, I served as the Headof accessibility, Accessibility
Chief at MTA New York City Transit.
And, you know, one thing that, I mean,I always see myself a little bit as a
disability crusader in terms of policiesand causes, related to paratransit, but
(10:36):
even taking TNCs aside for half a second.
One thing that we did atmy time at the MTA was.
The service, when you think aboutparatransit back in the 90s, it's the
little mini buses driving around countiesand cities and providing that service.
And that service was traditionally,that's how it started.
And you know, probably fitsbetter under an FTA type of model.
(10:58):
There are mini buses, you know,mini versions of true city buses.
And traditionally, even at New York CityMTA, the largest paratransit provider
in the country, 50 to 70 to 80 percentof trips back in the teens, we're
being fulfilled by those, minibuses.
You know, during my time, something thatI started was like, look, we have such
(11:18):
an, capacity and increase over, whetherit's yellow taxis, TNCs, other kinds
of vehicles, why are we not using them?
They're more nimble.
They don't have to go on a manifestroute that, you know, somebody's five
minutes late, the next person's two hourslate, you know, all this kind of stuff.
And by the time I actually left theMTA, the paratransit service as it
(11:38):
existed, you know, was doing about 70percent of trips via taxi or other types
of services that weren't minibuses.
So this is the beginning of theinnovation, you know, and then it kind
of follows through to the next steps andyou start thinking about TNCs and Uber.
I mean, Uber is doing in theirgeneral service, standard service,
billions of trips, not millions,billions of trips a year.
(12:01):
completely have modernized this,everybody knows this, and slowly there
has been a nice ongoing, integration intotransit services, both public transit
and microtransit, paratransit, youknow, agencies are getting comfortable
with Uber, getting, you know, ittakes the government and transit
regulators a little bit more time.
There's a little bit of a Thisis how we've always done it, that
(12:23):
always gets stuck in an agency,but we've seen tremendous growth.
It's not, not just the dynamicrouting and the capacity where there
are Uber drivers everywhere, right?
So you don't have to send a driver fromone part of New York City to another,
but the flexibility, the routing,you know, the fact that you don't
have to do it 24 hours in advance.
All things that are completely lifechanging, all things that are peers
(12:46):
in the non disabled, you know, thosewithout disabilities have access to, and
this is what's been kind of going on.
And, you know, you come to a pointin a regulatory situation here where
the FTA rules, as they've always beenimagined, were always more about true
buses, true trains, and, you know, thingslike that, and, it needs to change.
(13:09):
It's antiquated.
We're no longer living in that.
Everybody knows that the best way,yes, if there's a fixed route service
and it's great and it's accessible,that there are capacity reasons.
There's especially in New York City.
I mean, there are 500 subwaystations in New York City.
So we get it.
But even New York City sometimes,You need a different type of model
to kind of, get you the rest of theway or help you, especially when you
(13:31):
have an inaccessible transit system.
And, you know, we've come to an impassewhere the, where the regulator is
ultimately, doubling down a little biton times, times of the past and something
that doesn't work where we really need,innovative thinking to allow companies
like Uber to transform paratransit.
It's an equity issue to really bring.
(13:53):
The ADA says the word comparable,the things that have been going
on in paratransit for 30 yearshave not delivered comparable.
And this is what's next, and it'sgood for business, it's good for
people, because people will beworking, there'll be economy, there'll
be taxes, there'll be more trips.
It's good for the community, it's goodfor transit agencies, it's a win win.
We just need our regulatorsto kind of get on board.
(14:14):
So, what exactly is the regulation?
What is being proposed?
So since 2001, paratransit servicesor all, as Alex mentioned, all
transit drivers since the 1990s haverequired to be part of a random drug
testing pool, to be bus drivers, traindrivers, ferry drivers, whatever,
(14:39):
have been Everybody knows this.
I mean, I know, Paul, youcertainly know this from your time.
drug testing is part of our business,out of our traditional business.
All my bus drivers at myagency are drug tested.
In 2001, the FTA, issued a, a, rule thatsaid, well, a lot of transit systems
are using taxis back then, for, tocomplement their paratransit, to add,
(15:01):
uh, at times and things like that.
It became unworkable to, have taxicompanies be drug tested, so they issued
a, what they call a, the taxi exemption.
If the rider, not the transit system, ifthe rider chose the taxi cab company back
then that they would ride in, FTA saidthat those taxi companies were exempt
(15:22):
from the drug and alcohol policy rules.
So if there, if there was a riderchoice, transit agencies would give
a choice to the customers of a coupleof different cab companies to get
a ride from, that they, those cabcompanies did not need to be, exempt.
Then Uber and Lyft weren't even createdback in 2001, they didn't exist, right?
When all these rules that arenow being followed, as Alex was
(15:44):
saying, they're just very outdated,because Uber didn't even exist.
Ten years ago, Uber about, Uberwas created, and FTA shortly came
out with a, A statement that said,okay, the taxi exemption from
2001 applied to Uber and Lyft.
they would just treat it the same.
As long as there's a choice, it'sthe rider's choice, not, not Brad's
choice, not the agency's choice, butthe rider's choice, they can be exempt.
(16:09):
Well December 30th, 2024.
That, that whole, that whole, youknow, system was eliminated, is
proposed to be eliminated by the FTA.
So what are they saying?
They're saying now that taxi driversand Uber have to be drug tested to be
able to be used by a transit agency?
Yes, therefore, the way they've done thatis they've said, transit agencies are
(16:29):
prohibited from contracting with Uber,Lyft, taxi, any, any, any service provider
that does not have, drug tested drivers.
And that obviously would be a hugechange to what, what has happened.
And as a transit agency, you know, I, Iwant to, I know this is a transit podcast,
so, I wanted to say for, to my peers andcolleagues, I, I try to follow the rules.
(16:52):
I, I, I try to, be a good,manager and follow the FTA.
I love FTA.
I love them 28 million dollars forbuses and things like that, you
know, so I, I get it that they are,they, they have the law passed by
Congress, to drug test transit drivers.
I understand where they're, they'rekind of in a pickle here, but, we,
(17:12):
we have tried to build our programsall up, and I know transit systems
across the country have done the samething, following these rules, and
then just to kind of change the game.
Immediately, is, is a real problem.
Can I, can I add somethingto what Brad said?
I mean, I just want to clarify, Iknow like somebody may be listening
and they hear Oh, get rid of drugand alcohol testing, like what,
oh, that, why would we do that?
(17:33):
That sounds bad.
So, I'm just going to get a littlein the weeds here because explaining
this issue is a little tough, but theFTA and federal rules have a random
drug and alcohol testing standard.
This means that if you're part ofa program like this, you can get,
you know, your pager, you can geta text message on your phone, you
gotta go get drug tested right now.
(17:54):
You know, there's all kinds of other.
You know, very significant aspects andburdens to being part of that program.
That's what airline pilotsdo, Amtrak engineers, you
know, full time bus drivers.
These are full time transit operators,you know, carrying transit of, you
know, 10, 20, 30, hundreds of people.
And there's all kinds of documentationand all kinds of requirements.
(18:17):
Look, when you talk about Uber andTNCs, it's a completely different world.
It's the gig transportation economy,you know, these drivers doing a couple,
I'm sure they're averaging less thanfive trips a week, you know, I don't
even know what the numbers are, butit's some small number, you know, and
it, and it, and it's probably not thatthey don't want to do it, it's just,
to sign up for that, there's a cost,there's an expense, they have other
(18:37):
jobs, What are they going to tell theirother boss that if you got to leave, you
know, it just doesn't make any sense.
So this isn't just pre employment thatFTA is requiring, this is like the
whole, the full enchilada or whateverthey say, how you got to do all the
random and dude, that's interesting.
What do you think of that, Judy?
What's your thoughts on all thisfrom the National Easterseals?
I think it's, it impacts uponthe availability of rides for
(19:02):
me, for the individuals withdisabilities that we serve, and It's
missing opportunities for people.
We often hear of, the paratransitargument about, it's so costly.
It's so costly.
And a lot of entities talk about theseinnovations as a cost effective benefit,
(19:22):
but I think it's more than cost.
The community would be missing out ona viable pool of people as employees.
health care agencies wouldn't be able to.
Provide health care services becausepeople couldn't get there and therefore
people would be in the communityand, and not be able to work and
participate in society like we all do.
(19:43):
So, I think the community costs of this,the community benefit of not having
people because they can't get to wherethey need to go is a really critical
piece and it, it's a missed, I have.
No choice.
If I have less choice in thetransportation modes that I
choose, that's going to limitme in being part of a community.
(20:04):
And that's what I'm concerned about andfeel that is one of the biggest impacts
about this, this regulatory change.
So, we do have with us, Jen Shepard.
Jen is, Head of Uber'sGlobal Transit business.
So, you're the right personto be talking to here, Jen.
Thanks for joining us on the show today.
Absolutely.
Thanks for having me.
Yeah.
So, alright.
(20:25):
You've heard the issue here.
what's going to be Uber's response?
Let's say the, the new Administration,the Trump Administration, says, yes,
we're going to agree with what theBiden administration said, you know,
on the last day of the year, last year,we're going to require all these Uber
and taxi drivers to get drug tested.
What are you guys going to do?
Yes, well, first off, Ihope that's not the case.
I very much agree with thepanelists we have here.
(20:47):
So just laying some foundations here.
Uber, as Alex mentioned,is a very large platform.
We do billions of trips.
In 2023, it was like 9billion trips globally.
We're highly regulated, built withsafety in mind to provide access to
reliable mobility service in our markets.
Second, we're not a dedicatedtransit operator, as I think
everyone has been talking about.
(21:07):
We are different than the folks thatdrive the dedicated buses and so forth.
we fill in for the mobilitymanagers like Brad and Brad's
team where they need it most.
So it could be transit deserts,it could be paratransit same day.
We're not dedicated here andfrankly inside Uber, our transit
business is quite small to us.
(21:28):
We do this because we think it's theright thing to do and we think it's the
right thing to do for our communities.
Third, I'll say the product we usefor transit is the same product
you and me would use as consumers.
So you, Paul, if you order a ride, youget the exact same product as what we use
for these transit programs in many cases.
The driver never even knows that they'reriding as part of a transit program.
(21:51):
They don't know.
Oh, is that right?
I didn't know that.
Yes, they don't knowwho's paying for the trip.
and, and we just, we provide thesame level of service to these
opt in programs where the ridersreally want that level of service.
So they're getting the exactsame service as anyone else.
That's correct.
That's correct.
So it is commensurate, kind ofthe spirit of the law, right?
Or the word of the law.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah, exactly.
(22:11):
And we don't force these programson anyone in like Brad's program.
It's all voluntary opt in.
and, and so we believe we're offering theservice for the folks who really want it.
We've, we've looked at our transitdata, our program data, and And what
we found is that it's true what Alexmentioned drivers on our program only
incidentally complete these transit trips.
(22:32):
And so what, what do Imean by that incidental?
I mean that, in one large city thatwe've looked at in the last 60 days,
Over 90 percent of drivers who drovefor that transit program drove one
or two trips in the last 60 days.
Out of probably hundreds of tripsthat they did in those 60 days,
they literally drove only one or twotrips as part of the transit program.
(22:55):
They don't know who's paying for it.
It's the same product that the consumerwould get, and so it doesn't make
practical sense to really ask thesedrivers to do testing over and above
what is already required for them to doto be able to operate, you know, their
business as part of our markets today.
and then, and lastly, to answeryour question, So if this policy is
formalized as proposed, unfortunately,we will likely ramp down many of our
(23:20):
transit programs in collaborationwith the agencies, of course.
It'll be very sad for us.
Local communities will likely loseaccess to the benefits that we get.
That's something.
Well, can I ask you atough follow up question?
Yeah.
All right.
So, I mean, let me, let me put on the,uh, You know, the other hat, right?
So, isn't this about safety?
(23:41):
You know, don't, why is drug andalcohol testing not a good thing, Jen?
Yeah.
So, I want to say, so safety isvery, very important to Uber.
So, it, Stand For Safety is actuallyone of our core Uber company values.
and we do a lot to ensuresafety on the platform.
So, technology, policy enforcement,customer support, they all help to
create safer environments for our users.
(24:03):
Our drivers must undergo drivingand criminal background screening,
have proper documentation, agree toour community guidelines, which do
include a zero tolerance policy fordiscrimination and drug and alcohol use.
We have lots of great toolsthat we use from a technology
perspective, real time GPS tracking.
Sharing ride status with others, emergencyassistance button, real time driver
(24:26):
identity check, safety support team 247, and then the rating system as well.
We publish an online safety reportavailable to anyone and we show,
we continue to show critical safetyincidents are very rare on our platform.
In fact, our most recent,um, report had 99.
9998 percent of trips concludedwithout any critical safety incident.
(24:50):
99. 9 percent without anysafety incidents at all.
That might be better than most transitagencies, to be honest with you,
that's a pretty good number there.
well, we, we are, yes, we, we discloseit publicly, and then from an operational
perspective I mentioned before, butour transit programs are always opt in.
So if a customer is not comfortable withthe level of service we provide, the
agency provides alternatives for them.
(25:11):
so creating these compliance burdens,which we would clarify as the FTA's
proposed policy update, does likely, pointto Uber ending our transit partnership.
So, in my mind, that's not a good thing.
lastly, I will say, I was very curiouslast night, poking around the federal
register, and I noticed in 2018, therewas a federal rule that allowed TNCs
(25:36):
to be used for federal work travel.
So for employees of the federal governmentto use TNCs and get reimbursed for it.
And so my question then is, if TNCsare good enough for federal employees
to use for their work travel, why arethey not good enough for the folks
in our community who need it mostas part of these transit programs?
(25:57):
Thanks, Jen.
That's, that's, very interesting.
And that last piece youbrought up is also interesting.
So let me just go back to you, Brad,on the transit side, because this
is a transit podcast, generally.
What's it, so Jen said, ifthey, if this rule goes through,
we're, we're ramping down.
What's that going to meanto you and your customers?
It's going to have a major impact, to alot of thousands of people in my county.
(26:19):
I'm personally, you know, I'm atransit CEO, so what I'm most worried
about is like all those fine, uh,people are going to show up in my
boardroom at my podium and yell at me.
Yeah.
So, uh, but, um, no, I mean, I, Jen,Jen has been, a great, And she's a great
leader of this and helping us out withall these programs and she said it right.
It's going to be a major reduction inmobility for thousands of people in my
(26:44):
county that are very, very loving it.
You know, we always give allof our customers an option.
We have our traditional paratransit,and our services, available to them.
And over the last two years, the,you can just see the transition.
folks that are given the option, aregiven an option of a real time ride
(27:05):
that comes in like five minutes ratherthan a pre scheduled day before thing.
It's just not, it's just atotally different product.
And it, when they see it, they choose it.
Now, two thirds of all of our paratransitrides are on TNCs, Uber and Lyft.
Wow.
Yeah.
And one third are pre scheduledrides on traditional paratransit.
It's a complete game changer.
(27:27):
It'll be a, it'll reallybe a major impact.
Now, I get it.
It, safety is part of my jobdescription and all of our, uh, all
transit systems, uh, requirements.
We have to ensure safetyof all of our customers.
We have, we have tons of FTA rulesand regulations related to making
(27:47):
sure we provide safe rides for all.
So we are carefully tracking, ever sincewe started contracting with Uber and
Lyft, to about how their safety recordcompares to our traditional forms.
And just as Jen said, at least in ourcounty, the, the accident rates of our
mobility on demand, our TNC programsversus traditional paratransit, drug
(28:08):
tested drivers is the same or better.
The accident, the safety record ofour mobility services, as I feel
comfortable, is just as safe or better,even though they are not drug tested.
All right, Alex, you're the lawyer.
What's next?
Well, let me, uh, actually, I want tothrow in one comment before I do that.
I want to add some credencehere to, uh, what Jen said.
(28:31):
You know, Uber's notpaying me to say this.
For many of you that know me, when Iwas a regulator, when I worked as a
regulator at the TLC, I worked for somepretty harsh, I don't want to say harsh,
you should have been doing it anyway,but some pretty strict rules on Uber.
and even at the, at theTLC, but, sorry, MTA.
Look, the truth is, I just want toaddress the elephant in the room that,
(28:52):
oh, Uber can do this, they just don'twant to be regulated or whatever.
It's not, if Uber stood up and created arandom drug and alcohol testing program,
which I'm sure they could do, they'rea big company, they're gonna create the
bridge or an empty, or an empty warehouse.
The drivers aren't gonna do it.
Uber can't force them to do it.
It's not that, Uber doesn't want to.
(29:15):
It's, why would a driversign up and do this?
If they don't get a paratransittrip or a microtransit trip,
they're going to get another trip.
Uber's got enough trips to go around,but it's, it's a matter of, how do you,
how do you get these drivers to do it?
So, just want to kindof clear that out there.
It's just a matter of how the world haschanged and transportation has changed.
No one's trying to be abad, a bad person here.
(29:37):
Everybody just needs to innovateand get with what's new.
And what's new is what's next.
So this rule is currentlyin the Federal Registrar.
The docket number is FTA-2024-0020.
We wanna encourage everyone rightnow, it's in a comment period.
We are hopeful that, you know, maybethe current government does something
(29:57):
about it, before it gets to theend of its comment period, which
I believe is around February 13th.
But we want people withdisabilities, those who enjoy
TNC as a service to get on there.
Submit a comment.
This is not the directionwe should be going.
How TNCs and transit haverevolutionized your life.
we, we need people tocome out against this.
It's also an opportunity totalk to your local transit
(30:18):
operators and elected officials.
You know, this is a, this is amoment in the disability community.
When you, when you think aboutthe integral part, transportation
plays, people need to say, wewant what everyone else has.
We want the same benefits andtypes of service that people
with, disabilities have.
And this is a way to get there.
Your elected officials at every levelneed to know about it, your transit
(30:39):
operators, this is, it's a little bitof a complicated issue, I say that,
but it behooves us as the disabilitycommunity, you know, myself as a
quadriplegic, to get, to know theissues and to get our voice out there.
Judy, coming from the NationalEasterseals Society, to me, one of
the most respected organizations inthe country on this whole issue, what,
let's let you have the last word.
(31:01):
Any final thoughts?
About spontaneity.
You know, it's been said, butto summarize, it's all about
me having a choice where Iwant to go, when I want to go.
And, without the varying optionsthat these innovations create,
those inhibit my spontaneity.
So, be at the table, talk with thelocal people, as Alex said, your
(31:21):
planning organization, the MPOs,your local legislators about what
this potentially could mean andhave a larger discussion about the
transportation options in your community.
So, thanks.
Thank you.
Thank you, Judy, Jen, Alex, andBrad for, bringing this issue.
We at Transit Unplugged like to be ontop of the, the cutting edge issues
that are impacting public transit andthere couldn't be more cutting edge
(31:44):
than this since the thing is goingto kick in in a couple of weeks.
So, we, we appreciate newsjackingthis article for this This is your
article, Alex, from Newsweek and, andthis information out to the industry,
the public transit industry aroundthe U.S. And I think it's important
for people around the world to hearit, too, and to hear what's going
on here in the U.S. with this issue.
Thank you again for everybody forbeing our guests, kind of on a last
(32:06):
notice here, last minute notice.
We appreciate it.
And best wishes to you all on this issue.
Thank you for listening to this week'sepisode of Transit Unplugged with our
special guests, Dr. Judy L. Shanley, AlexElegudin Jen Shepherd and Brad Miller.
We thank them for coming on the showat the last minute to talk about this
(32:27):
really important issue facing transitagencies across the United States.
Now, coming up next week, we haveour special episode featuring
women in Australia leadingthe way in public transport.
We have Lauren Streifer Jamie-LeeOwen, Katie Cooper, and Michelle Batsas
joining Paul and special co host KellyChapman for a discussion about everything
(32:49):
going on in Australia with transit.
And, the initiatives that Michelleespecially has done to encourage
more women to become part ofthe public transit industry.
Transit Unplugged isbrought to you by Modaxo.
At Modaxo, we're passionateabout moving the world's people.
And at Transit Unplugged, we'repassionate about telling those stories.
(33:10):
So until next week, ridesafe and ride happy.
I remember a few years back when I wasCEO of the MTA, probably eight years ago,
we were looking for a way to continueto provide amazing service when it
comes to paratransit operations, butdo it in a more cost efficient manner.
And I heard about a CEO in Floridawho just started doing something
like that, and that was Brad Miller.
Brad is a, uh, and was CEO of thePinellas Suncoast Transit Authority,
(00:28):
and he started using, this is in theClearwater, Florida area, he started
using these TNCs, transport networkingcompanies, to help him do things like,
you know, provide late night service,maybe rescue rides, first and last
mile solution, and again, potentiallysupplementing paratransit service
with customers who would opt into it.
So, uh, the, this, the idea continuedto develop, you're probably aware of
(00:53):
this, and now cities across the countryare using various, um, paratransit
supplemental service through companieslike Uber and Lyft and, uh, and
even ADA service with companies likeUZURV and SilverRide and others.
So, today we're going to continue totalk about this new advent of service
provision where transit agencies canutilize services such as Uber and Lyft
(01:18):
and others to supplement their service.
But also, there's a threat on the horizonthat we'll tell you about at the end of
the show which you may want to hear about.
So, Brad Miller kicks off the show today.
He is the CEO, as mentioned, of thePinellas Suncoast Transit Authority.
He is the regional transit authorityserving the Tampa Bay region on the
west coast of Florida with more than300 buses and 920 dedicated employees.
(01:38):
We also have Dr. Judy Shanley,who is the National Director of
Transportation, Mobility, and Youthat the National Office of Easterseals.
The National Easterseals Societyhas been one of the real leaders
in paratransit operations.
She directs several U. S. Departmentof Transportation projects funded
by the FTA and other groups.
We also have on here Alex Elugodin.
(01:59):
He is CEO of Wheeling Forward andthe former Accessibility Chief of the
largest paratransit operation in America.
For In New York City,the New York City MTA.
He has spent almost a decadeworking as an advocate and mentor
of the disability community.
He wrote an article in Newsweekmagazine that we talked about today
that really brought this issue tothe forefront, this challenge to
(02:19):
utilizing companies like Uber and Lyft.
He'll talk about that today.
And then we brought on Jen Shepherd wholeads Uber's global transit business.
She's a partner to cities and transitagencies With a mission of making transit
more accessible to those who need it most.
This is a fascinating look into howTNCs, like Uber, are used by public
transit agencies and this potentialthreat that's looming on the horizon
(02:41):
that came in through regulationscoming out of Washington, of course.
And she'll talk about that, as willthe other guests on the show, on
this episode of Transit Unplugged.
Well, great to have a great panel withus today, talking about what I consider
one of the latest and greatest trendsin public transportation, and that
is the use of TNCs, micro mobility,to assist public transit agencies
(03:02):
to provide paratransit service.
And as mentioned in the opening,we've got a great panel with us.
One of them is a goodfriend of mine, Brad Miller.
Brad and I have been buddiesfor well over a decade.
And Brad, I remember back when Iwas CEO of MTA in Baltimore, I heard
this guy down in Florida was doingsomething cool with Uber because we
were all concerned about costs, right?
The cost of providing paratransit service.
(03:23):
Like, I can give you an example.
At Baltimore, I had an $800 millionoperating budget, and I spent 100
million of that on paratransit.
This was eight years ago.
And and the cost was going upat six to 8% a year, whereas my
regular costs were going up 2%.
So I was like, this is unsustainable.
There has to be a solution.
And it turned out there was, and you'rethe one that kind of found it for us.
(03:44):
Tell us about what you didand what you're doing now.
Well, thank you Paul, and thank you forhaving, me and the other great people
that are on this podcast on this.
On this podcast.
Um, yeah, you're right.
I mean, that was back in 2016.
PSTA started off small, but we werethe first agency in the country
to have a contract with Uber.
And, um, that was, thatwas a great moment.
(04:05):
I don't think you and other people thatheard about it probably had any idea
what was really going on with it, butjust fast forward from then to now.
And, it has been a completegame changer, in my opinion, for
mobility in my community, downhere in St. Petersburg, Florida.
The, of course, we started off with afirst mile, last mile, kind of, program
(04:26):
where people can get a discountedUber ride to and from a bus stop.
We extended that to late night services.
You know, after the buses stop running,people maybe get to a job on the
bus, but then they need to get home.
A low income person, wehave a program for that.
Where they can catch adiscounted Uber or Lyft ride.
And then finally we receiveda federal, one of the first
(04:48):
federal transit administrationsandbox grants back in 2017.
We were part of the first groupto test whether TNCs could be
effective for paratransit use.
And so we launched that and oh mygosh that has just been such a huge...
I think a very, very positive thingfor people with disabilities in our,
(05:09):
in our county, the mobility of beingable to get a ride like, like you and
I can, Paul, on a moment's notice.
We, we of course operate our traditionalparatransit, we provide our regular
paratransit options, and then we providewhat we call, down here, Mobility On
Demand, essentially that you can geta real time ride, when you need it.
And so people might take, schedulea paratransit ride to the doctor,
(05:32):
but, you know, no one knows whentheir doctor is going to actually see
them because you might wait forever.
So, they'll, I'll justcall you when I'm done.
And then, then they get a ride home.
Or, hey, I don't, I don't needparatransit just for medical appointments.
I can go to the movies.
I can go to Applebee's andgo to lunch with my daughter.
Or, I can just be a normal person.
I've had many people inthe transit industry.
Say, Brad, what you guys are doingdown there is, people in the disability
(05:56):
community are saying you're actuallytreating us like everybody else.
Giving us the mobility that everybodyelse already has and it's really been
gratifying to me in my career to justsee the benefit that this has provided.
Now, we're on this podcast todaybecause there is a threat to that,
to that great mobility that weare, partnering with our TNCs with.
(06:17):
The federal government, issued a, aproposed change to the rules, governing,
the use of TNCs by transit agencies atthe very end of the Biden administration
and on December 30th is when it waspublished in the Federal Register.
And so now, we're We're coming intothis kind of, question period, with
the new Administration coming in,are they going to enact these rules?
(06:38):
there is a, publiccomment period going on.
Essentially what would happen is thefederal government would prohibit,
PSTA, my agency, or any transit agencyin the country from contracting,
essentially contracting with a TNC.
And that would, that would force meand hundreds of other cities to cancel
our, these great mobility programs.
(07:00):
And so that's why we're, we're tryingto get the word out about this and
get, get a good reaction from people.
That's something, Brad.
Well, let's jump over to you, Judy.
I've always, admired theNational Easterseals Society.
You all have been really,leaders in this industry.
I remember back when I started, like, inthe late 1980s in this industry, running
a small bus system here in the county.
We were always getting our trainingprograms from the National Easterseals
(07:22):
Society about how to train ourdrivers, et cetera, to be, you know,
to help people with disabilities.
And now you're the, you're theNational Director of Transportation
and Mobility and Youth, there atthe National Office of Easterseals.
Tell us about, you know, whatyou're all's role is in this whole
issue and where you're at on it.
Sure, thank you andthank you for having me.
I feel very privilegedto be part of this panel.
(07:42):
Easterseals has been a leader inthis space for over a hundred years.
We were actually at the table whenthe provisions in the Americans
with Disabilities Act came to bearound transportation opportunities
and paratransit services forindividuals with disabilities.
And I think, the innovations thatwe've seen in the transportation
(08:03):
sector, and particularly withparatransit have been phenomenal.
The use of transportation networkcompanies and other modes to to complement
existing services has been amazing andessentially transportation and paratransit
options and the innovation with TNCshas created opportunities for people.
(08:24):
The Americans with Disabilities Actsuggests that or requires mandates that
the paratransit service be comparableto a fixed route service, but often it's
not comparable to fixed route service.
And it doesn't give riders, it doesn'tgive people with disabilities who
we want to be included in society.
We want people to access jobsand education and health care.
(08:47):
It doesn't give them the sameopportunity as Brad said, as you and me.
And so I think thinking innovatively andcreatively about the ways that people
with disabilities can access services andcommunity settings is really critical.
And paratransit has beenimportant to that effort.
And now the whole innovation in termsof paratransit has been important.
(09:10):
And, you know, what's going on interms of the, the, the, changing,
legislation could potentially compromisethe ability of people to be integrated
and included in their communities.
So, yeah, Easterseals is excitedto be part of this conversation.
So thanks.
Thank you, Judy.
That's great.
And Alex, you actually just wrote anarticle in Newsweek magazine dude.
(09:33):
Big time, uh, that I, that Ihappened to read yesterday, uh,
which really framed this issue well.
Tell us a little bit about yourbackground, what got you, you
know, interested in this issue.
Obviously, you've got a personal,connection to it because you use the
services and, and you're an attorney andso you've been involved in a lot of this.
Talk to us about you, thegroup you formed, and what your
thoughts are on this whole topic.
Absolutely.
Thanks so much.
(09:53):
I mean, I've got a little bit of,uh, career background in this.
I mean, I was originally the accessibilityprogram manager leading, accessibility
initiatives at the New York City TaxiLimousine Commission back around 2015.
And at that time, we were working withUber, to create, the wheelchair accessible
service model, for their servicesgenerally, not just paratransit in New
(10:16):
York City, and work a lot on kind of taxiand integration issues for accessibility.
Later on, I served as the Headof accessibility, Accessibility
Chief at MTA New York City Transit.
And, you know, one thing that, I mean,I always see myself a little bit as a
disability crusader in terms of policiesand causes, related to paratransit, but
(10:36):
even taking TNCs aside for half a second.
One thing that we did atmy time at the MTA was.
The service, when you think aboutparatransit back in the 90s, it's the
little mini buses driving around countiesand cities and providing that service.
And that service was traditionally,that's how it started.
And you know, probably fitsbetter under an FTA type of model.
(10:58):
There are mini buses, you know,mini versions of true city buses.
And traditionally, even at New York CityMTA, the largest paratransit provider
in the country, 50 to 70 to 80 percentof trips back in the teens, we're
being fulfilled by those, minibuses.
You know, during my time, something thatI started was like, look, we have such
(11:18):
an, capacity and increase over, whetherit's yellow taxis, TNCs, other kinds
of vehicles, why are we not using them?
They're more nimble.
They don't have to go on a manifestroute that, you know, somebody's five
minutes late, the next person's two hourslate, you know, all this kind of stuff.
And by the time I actually left theMTA, the paratransit service as it
(11:38):
existed, you know, was doing about 70percent of trips via taxi or other types
of services that weren't minibuses.
So this is the beginning of theinnovation, you know, and then it kind
of follows through to the next steps andyou start thinking about TNCs and Uber.
I mean, Uber is doing in theirgeneral service, standard service,
billions of trips, not millions,billions of trips a year.
(12:01):
completely have modernized this,everybody knows this, and slowly there
has been a nice ongoing, integration intotransit services, both public transit
and microtransit, paratransit, youknow, agencies are getting comfortable
with Uber, getting, you know, ittakes the government and transit
regulators a little bit more time.
There's a little bit of a Thisis how we've always done it, that
(12:23):
always gets stuck in an agency,but we've seen tremendous growth.
It's not, not just the dynamicrouting and the capacity where there
are Uber drivers everywhere, right?
So you don't have to send a driver fromone part of New York City to another,
but the flexibility, the routing,you know, the fact that you don't
have to do it 24 hours in advance.
All things that are completely lifechanging, all things that are peers
(12:46):
in the non disabled, you know, thosewithout disabilities have access to, and
this is what's been kind of going on.
And, you know, you come to a pointin a regulatory situation here where
the FTA rules, as they've always beenimagined, were always more about true
buses, true trains, and, you know, thingslike that, and, it needs to change.
(13:09):
It's antiquated.
We're no longer living in that.
Everybody knows that the best way,yes, if there's a fixed route service
and it's great and it's accessible,that there are capacity reasons.
There's especially in New York City.
I mean, there are 500 subwaystations in New York City.
So we get it.
But even New York City sometimes,You need a different type of model
to kind of, get you the rest of theway or help you, especially when you
(13:31):
have an inaccessible transit system.
And, you know, we've come to an impassewhere the, where the regulator is
ultimately, doubling down a little biton times, times of the past and something
that doesn't work where we really need,innovative thinking to allow companies
like Uber to transform paratransit.
It's an equity issue to really bring.
(13:53):
The ADA says the word comparable,the things that have been going
on in paratransit for 30 yearshave not delivered comparable.
And this is what's next, and it'sgood for business, it's good for
people, because people will beworking, there'll be economy, there'll
be taxes, there'll be more trips.
It's good for the community, it's goodfor transit agencies, it's a win win.
We just need our regulatorsto kind of get on board.
(14:14):
So, what exactly is the regulation?
What is being proposed?
So since 2001, paratransit servicesor all, as Alex mentioned, all
transit drivers since the 1990s haverequired to be part of a random drug
testing pool, to be bus drivers, traindrivers, ferry drivers, whatever,
(14:39):
have been Everybody knows this.
I mean, I know, Paul, youcertainly know this from your time.
drug testing is part of our business,out of our traditional business.
All my bus drivers at myagency are drug tested.
In 2001, the FTA, issued a, a, rule thatsaid, well, a lot of transit systems
are using taxis back then, for, tocomplement their paratransit, to add,
(15:01):
uh, at times and things like that.
It became unworkable to, have taxicompanies be drug tested, so they issued
a, what they call a, the taxi exemption.
If the rider, not the transit system, ifthe rider chose the taxi cab company back
then that they would ride in, FTA saidthat those taxi companies were exempt
(15:22):
from the drug and alcohol policy rules.
So if there, if there was a riderchoice, transit agencies would give
a choice to the customers of a coupleof different cab companies to get
a ride from, that they, those cabcompanies did not need to be, exempt.
Then Uber and Lyft weren't even createdback in 2001, they didn't exist, right?
When all these rules that arenow being followed, as Alex was
(15:44):
saying, they're just very outdated,because Uber didn't even exist.
Ten years ago, Uber about, Uberwas created, and FTA shortly came
out with a, A statement that said,okay, the taxi exemption from
2001 applied to Uber and Lyft.
they would just treat it the same.
As long as there's a choice, it'sthe rider's choice, not, not Brad's
choice, not the agency's choice, butthe rider's choice, they can be exempt.
(16:09):
Well December 30th, 2024.
That, that whole, that whole, youknow, system was eliminated, is
proposed to be eliminated by the FTA.
So what are they saying?
They're saying now that taxi driversand Uber have to be drug tested to be
able to be used by a transit agency?
Yes, therefore, the way they've done thatis they've said, transit agencies are
(16:29):
prohibited from contracting with Uber,Lyft, taxi, any, any, any service provider
that does not have, drug tested drivers.
And that obviously would be a hugechange to what, what has happened.
And as a transit agency, you know, I, Iwant to, I know this is a transit podcast,
so, I wanted to say for, to my peers andcolleagues, I, I try to follow the rules.
(16:52):
I, I, I try to, be a good,manager and follow the FTA.
I love FTA.
I love them 28 million dollars forbuses and things like that, you
know, so I, I get it that they are,they, they have the law passed by
Congress, to drug test transit drivers.
I understand where they're, they'rekind of in a pickle here, but, we,
(17:12):
we have tried to build our programsall up, and I know transit systems
across the country have done the samething, following these rules, and
then just to kind of change the game.
Immediately, is, is a real problem.
Can I, can I add somethingto what Brad said?
I mean, I just want to clarify, Iknow like somebody may be listening
and they hear Oh, get rid of drugand alcohol testing, like what,
oh, that, why would we do that?
(17:33):
That sounds bad.
So, I'm just going to get a littlein the weeds here because explaining
this issue is a little tough, but theFTA and federal rules have a random
drug and alcohol testing standard.
This means that if you're part ofa program like this, you can get,
you know, your pager, you can geta text message on your phone, you
gotta go get drug tested right now.
(17:54):
You know, there's all kinds of other.
You know, very significant aspects andburdens to being part of that program.
That's what airline pilotsdo, Amtrak engineers, you
know, full time bus drivers.
These are full time transit operators,you know, carrying transit of, you
know, 10, 20, 30, hundreds of people.
And there's all kinds of documentationand all kinds of requirements.
(18:17):
Look, when you talk about Uber andTNCs, it's a completely different world.
It's the gig transportation economy,you know, these drivers doing a couple,
I'm sure they're averaging less thanfive trips a week, you know, I don't
even know what the numbers are, butit's some small number, you know, and
it, and it, and it's probably not thatthey don't want to do it, it's just,
to sign up for that, there's a cost,there's an expense, they have other
(18:37):
jobs, What are they going to tell theirother boss that if you got to leave, you
know, it just doesn't make any sense.
So this isn't just pre employment thatFTA is requiring, this is like the
whole, the full enchilada or whateverthey say, how you got to do all the
random and dude, that's interesting.
What do you think of that, Judy?
What's your thoughts on all thisfrom the National Easterseals?
I think it's, it impacts uponthe availability of rides for
(19:02):
me, for the individuals withdisabilities that we serve, and It's
missing opportunities for people.
We often hear of, the paratransitargument about, it's so costly.
It's so costly.
And a lot of entities talk about theseinnovations as a cost effective benefit,
(19:22):
but I think it's more than cost.
The community would be missing out ona viable pool of people as employees.
health care agencies wouldn't be able to.
Provide health care services becausepeople couldn't get there and therefore
people would be in the communityand, and not be able to work and
participate in society like we all do.
(19:43):
So, I think the community costs of this,the community benefit of not having
people because they can't get to wherethey need to go is a really critical
piece and it, it's a missed, I have.
No choice.
If I have less choice in thetransportation modes that I
choose, that's going to limitme in being part of a community.
(20:04):
And that's what I'm concerned about andfeel that is one of the biggest impacts
about this, this regulatory change.
So, we do have with us, Jen Shepard.
Jen is, Head of Uber'sGlobal Transit business.
So, you're the right personto be talking to here, Jen.
Thanks for joining us on the show today.
Absolutely.
Thanks for having me.
Yeah.
So, alright.
(20:25):
You've heard the issue here.
what's going to be Uber's response?
Let's say the, the new Administration,the Trump Administration, says, yes,
we're going to agree with what theBiden administration said, you know,
on the last day of the year, last year,we're going to require all these Uber
and taxi drivers to get drug tested.
What are you guys going to do?
Yes, well, first off, Ihope that's not the case.
I very much agree with thepanelists we have here.
(20:47):
So just laying some foundations here.
Uber, as Alex mentioned,is a very large platform.
We do billions of trips.
In 2023, it was like 9billion trips globally.
We're highly regulated, built withsafety in mind to provide access to
reliable mobility service in our markets.
Second, we're not a dedicatedtransit operator, as I think
everyone has been talking about.
(21:07):
We are different than the folks thatdrive the dedicated buses and so forth.
we fill in for the mobilitymanagers like Brad and Brad's
team where they need it most.
So it could be transit deserts,it could be paratransit same day.
We're not dedicated here andfrankly inside Uber, our transit
business is quite small to us.
(21:28):
We do this because we think it's theright thing to do and we think it's the
right thing to do for our communities.
Third, I'll say the product we usefor transit is the same product
you and me would use as consumers.
So you, Paul, if you order a ride, youget the exact same product as what we use
for these transit programs in many cases.
The driver never even knows that they'reriding as part of a transit program.
(21:51):
They don't know.
Oh, is that right?
I didn't know that.
Yes, they don't knowwho's paying for the trip.
and, and we just, we provide thesame level of service to these
opt in programs where the ridersreally want that level of service.
So they're getting the exactsame service as anyone else.
That's correct.
That's correct.
So it is commensurate, kind ofthe spirit of the law, right?
Or the word of the law.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah, exactly.
(22:11):
And we don't force these programson anyone in like Brad's program.
It's all voluntary opt in.
and, and so we believe we're offering theservice for the folks who really want it.
We've, we've looked at our transitdata, our program data, and And what
we found is that it's true what Alexmentioned drivers on our program only
incidentally complete these transit trips.
(22:32):
And so what, what do Imean by that incidental?
I mean that, in one large city thatwe've looked at in the last 60 days,
Over 90 percent of drivers who drovefor that transit program drove one
or two trips in the last 60 days.
Out of probably hundreds of tripsthat they did in those 60 days,
they literally drove only one or twotrips as part of the transit program.
(22:55):
They don't know who's paying for it.
It's the same product that the consumerwould get, and so it doesn't make
practical sense to really ask thesedrivers to do testing over and above
what is already required for them to doto be able to operate, you know, their
business as part of our markets today.
and then, and lastly, to answeryour question, So if this policy is
formalized as proposed, unfortunately,we will likely ramp down many of our
(23:20):
transit programs in collaborationwith the agencies, of course.
It'll be very sad for us.
Local communities will likely loseaccess to the benefits that we get.
That's something.
Well, can I ask you atough follow up question?
Yeah.
All right.
So, I mean, let me, let me put on the,uh, You know, the other hat, right?
So, isn't this about safety?
(23:41):
You know, don't, why is drug andalcohol testing not a good thing, Jen?
Yeah.
So, I want to say, so safety isvery, very important to Uber.
So, it, Stand For Safety is actuallyone of our core Uber company values.
and we do a lot to ensuresafety on the platform.
So, technology, policy enforcement,customer support, they all help to
create safer environments for our users.
(24:03):
Our drivers must undergo drivingand criminal background screening,
have proper documentation, agree toour community guidelines, which do
include a zero tolerance policy fordiscrimination and drug and alcohol use.
We have lots of great toolsthat we use from a technology
perspective, real time GPS tracking.
Sharing ride status with others, emergencyassistance button, real time driver
(24:26):
identity check, safety support team 247, and then the rating system as well.
We publish an online safety reportavailable to anyone and we show,
we continue to show critical safetyincidents are very rare on our platform.
In fact, our most recent,um, report had 99.
9998 percent of trips concludedwithout any critical safety incident.
(24:50):
99. 9 percent without anysafety incidents at all.
That might be better than most transitagencies, to be honest with you,
that's a pretty good number there.
well, we, we are, yes, we, we discloseit publicly, and then from an operational
perspective I mentioned before, butour transit programs are always opt in.
So if a customer is not comfortable withthe level of service we provide, the
agency provides alternatives for them.
(25:11):
so creating these compliance burdens,which we would clarify as the FTA's
proposed policy update, does likely, pointto Uber ending our transit partnership.
So, in my mind, that's not a good thing.
lastly, I will say, I was very curiouslast night, poking around the federal
register, and I noticed in 2018, therewas a federal rule that allowed TNCs
(25:36):
to be used for federal work travel.
So for employees of the federal governmentto use TNCs and get reimbursed for it.
And so my question then is, if TNCsare good enough for federal employees
to use for their work travel, why arethey not good enough for the folks
in our community who need it mostas part of these transit programs?
(25:57):
Thanks, Jen.
That's, that's, very interesting.
And that last piece youbrought up is also interesting.
So let me just go back to you, Brad,on the transit side, because this
is a transit podcast, generally.
What's it, so Jen said, ifthey, if this rule goes through,
we're, we're ramping down.
What's that going to meanto you and your customers?
It's going to have a major impact, to alot of thousands of people in my county.
(26:19):
I'm personally, you know, I'm atransit CEO, so what I'm most worried
about is like all those fine, uh,people are going to show up in my
boardroom at my podium and yell at me.
Yeah.
So, uh, but, um, no, I mean, I, Jen,Jen has been, a great, And she's a great
leader of this and helping us out withall these programs and she said it right.
It's going to be a major reduction inmobility for thousands of people in my
(26:44):
county that are very, very loving it.
You know, we always give allof our customers an option.
We have our traditional paratransit,and our services, available to them.
And over the last two years, the,you can just see the transition.
folks that are given the option, aregiven an option of a real time ride
(27:05):
that comes in like five minutes ratherthan a pre scheduled day before thing.
It's just not, it's just atotally different product.
And it, when they see it, they choose it.
Now, two thirds of all of our paratransitrides are on TNCs, Uber and Lyft.
Wow.
Yeah.
And one third are pre scheduledrides on traditional paratransit.
It's a complete game changer.
(27:27):
It'll be a, it'll reallybe a major impact.
Now, I get it.
It, safety is part of my jobdescription and all of our, uh, all
transit systems, uh, requirements.
We have to ensure safetyof all of our customers.
We have, we have tons of FTA rulesand regulations related to making
(27:47):
sure we provide safe rides for all.
So we are carefully tracking, ever sincewe started contracting with Uber and
Lyft, to about how their safety recordcompares to our traditional forms.
And just as Jen said, at least in ourcounty, the, the accident rates of our
mobility on demand, our TNC programsversus traditional paratransit, drug
(28:08):
tested drivers is the same or better.
The accident, the safety record ofour mobility services, as I feel
comfortable, is just as safe or better,even though they are not drug tested.
All right, Alex, you're the lawyer.
What's next?
Well, let me, uh, actually, I want tothrow in one comment before I do that.
I want to add some credencehere to, uh, what Jen said.
(28:31):
You know, Uber's notpaying me to say this.
For many of you that know me, when Iwas a regulator, when I worked as a
regulator at the TLC, I worked for somepretty harsh, I don't want to say harsh,
you should have been doing it anyway,but some pretty strict rules on Uber.
and even at the, at theTLC, but, sorry, MTA.
Look, the truth is, I just want toaddress the elephant in the room that,
(28:52):
oh, Uber can do this, they just don'twant to be regulated or whatever.
It's not, if Uber stood up and created arandom drug and alcohol testing program,
which I'm sure they could do, they'rea big company, they're gonna create the
bridge or an empty, or an empty warehouse.
The drivers aren't gonna do it.
Uber can't force them to do it.
It's not that, Uber doesn't want to.
(29:15):
It's, why would a driversign up and do this?
If they don't get a paratransittrip or a microtransit trip,
they're going to get another trip.
Uber's got enough trips to go around,but it's, it's a matter of, how do you,
how do you get these drivers to do it?
So, just want to kindof clear that out there.
It's just a matter of how the world haschanged and transportation has changed.
No one's trying to be abad, a bad person here.
(29:37):
Everybody just needs to innovateand get with what's new.
And what's new is what's next.
So this rule is currentlyin the Federal Registrar.
The docket number is FTA-2024-0020.
We wanna encourage everyone rightnow, it's in a comment period.
We are hopeful that, you know, maybethe current government does something
(29:57):
about it, before it gets to theend of its comment period, which
I believe is around February 13th.
But we want people withdisabilities, those who enjoy
TNC as a service to get on there.
Submit a comment.
This is not the directionwe should be going.
How TNCs and transit haverevolutionized your life.
we, we need people tocome out against this.
It's also an opportunity totalk to your local transit
(30:18):
operators and elected officials.
You know, this is a, this is amoment in the disability community.
When you, when you think aboutthe integral part, transportation
plays, people need to say, wewant what everyone else has.
We want the same benefits andtypes of service that people
with, disabilities have.
And this is a way to get there.
Your elected officials at every levelneed to know about it, your transit
(30:39):
operators, this is, it's a little bitof a complicated issue, I say that,
but it behooves us as the disabilitycommunity, you know, myself as a
quadriplegic, to get, to know theissues and to get our voice out there.
Judy, coming from the NationalEasterseals Society, to me, one of
the most respected organizations inthe country on this whole issue, what,
let's let you have the last word.
(31:01):
Any final thoughts?
About spontaneity.
You know, it's been said, butto summarize, it's all about
me having a choice where Iwant to go, when I want to go.
And, without the varying optionsthat these innovations create,
those inhibit my spontaneity.
So, be at the table, talk with thelocal people, as Alex said, your
(31:21):
planning organization, the MPOs,your local legislators about what
this potentially could mean andhave a larger discussion about the
transportation options in your community.
So, thanks.
Thank you.
Thank you, Judy, Jen, Alex, andBrad for, bringing this issue.
We at Transit Unplugged like to be ontop of the, the cutting edge issues
that are impacting public transit andthere couldn't be more cutting edge
(31:44):
than this since the thing is goingto kick in in a couple of weeks.
So, we, we appreciate newsjackingthis article for this This is your
article, Alex, from Newsweek and, andthis information out to the industry,
the public transit industry aroundthe U.S. And I think it's important
for people around the world to hearit, too, and to hear what's going
on here in the U.S. with this issue.
Thank you again for everybody forbeing our guests, kind of on a last
(32:06):
notice here, last minute notice.
We appreciate it.
And best wishes to you all on this issue.
Thank you for listening to this week'sepisode of Transit Unplugged with our
special guests, Dr. Judy L. Shanley, AlexElegudin Jen Shepherd and Brad Miller.
We thank them for coming on the showat the last minute to talk about this
(32:27):
really important issue facing transitagencies across the United States.
Now, coming up next week, we haveour special episode featuring
women in Australia leadingthe way in public transport.
We have Lauren Streifer Jamie-LeeOwen, Katie Cooper, and Michelle Batsas
joining Paul and special co host KellyChapman for a discussion about everything
(32:49):
going on in Australia with transit.
And, the initiatives that Michelleespecially has done to encourage
more women to become part ofthe public transit industry.
Transit Unplugged isbrought to you by Modaxo.
At Modaxo, we're passionateabout moving the world's people.
And at Transit Unplugged, we'repassionate about telling those stories.
(33:10):
So until next week, ridesafe and ride happy.
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