December 31, 2024 • 37 mins
In this special New Year's Eve episode of Transit Unplugged, Paul is joined by transportation expert and futurist Rudy Salo to discuss what's going to shape the entire transportation sector in 2025. From robotaxis and EVs to autonomous vehicles, Rudy shares his thoughts on transportation in Los Angeles even before the Olympics start. Rudy also explains how a little-known facet of municipal bonds could threaten transit projects across the U.S.
We kick off 2025 with the second of Paul's episodes from Australia and a true transportation legend Howard Collins, OBE. Howard talks with Paul about everything he's learned in his 47 year career, the things he's most excited about now, and what Australia needs to do to boost transit use.
More about Rudy...
- The Commute: https://thecommute.substack.com/
- Forbes.com: https://www.forbes.com/sites/rudysalo/
- Good Is In The Details Podcast: https://open.spotify.com/show/01sSTIkORzkvRLW3DW6lZJ?si=cc0325a14fd74acd
The views expressed in this podcast are personal opinions and do not represent the views or policies of Nixon Peabody LLP. This content is for informational purposes only and is not intended as professional advice.
00:00 Welcome to the New Year's Eve Special
00:23 Exciting Future of Transportation in 2025
01:10 Robo Taxis and Electric Vehicles
02:45 LA Metro and Olympic Preparations
05:11 Challenges and Innovations in LA Transit
11:27 Autonomous Vehicles and Public Transit
16:33 The Importance of Municipal Bonds
21:13 Entertainment and Transportation
27:27 The Future of Public Transit: Fueling, Funding, and Faring
36:34 Coming up next week on Transit Unplugged
If you have a question or comment, email us at info@transitunplugged.com.
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Disclaimer: The views and opinions expressed in this program are those of the guests, and do not necessarily reflect the views or positions of Modaxo Inc., its affiliates or subsidiaries, or any entities they represent (“Modaxo”). This production belongs to Modaxo, and may contain information that may be subject to trademark, copyright, or other intellectual property rights and restrictions. This production provides general information, and should not be relied on as legal advice or opinion. Modaxo specifically disclaims all warranties, express or implied, and will not be liable for any...
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:05):
Thanks for being with us todayon our New Year's Eve special on
Transit Unplugged, the world'sleading transit executive podcast.
I have with me a newfriend, Rudy Salo, from L.
A.
He and I today are going to delveinto what we think are the hottest
topics coming for transit in 2025.
Rudy, welcome to the show.
Paul, thank you very much.
And I love the fact that this is beingreleased in 2025, because dare I say
(00:27):
2025 could be one of the most excitingyears in transportation as we know it.
Really?
Tell me why.
There's, there's a lot ofvery interesting reasons why.
I think that For the first time inmy lifetime, when I'm talking about
transportation, people are not justrolling their eyes going, oh my God, this
(00:48):
guy's talking about this boring topic.
Right.
And by the way, to be fair, I don'thang out with a bunch of transit.
folk, right?
I mean I hang out with I wasright about to say normal people,
but that's pretty insulting.
I hang out with non transitprofessionals Most of the time I
happen to be the one that's the mostpassionate about transit, but people
are talking about transportationWhat are they talking about Paul?
(01:10):
They're talking about robo taxis.
I happen to live in Los Angeles robotaxis have been launched here That
they're not yet in my area of LosAngeles, because I live in the South
Bay, kind of close to LAX, and theycurrently don't go to LAX, but I'm sure
with the Olympics coming here, Yeah.
It's, something's gonna happen.
People are talkingabout electric vehicles.
(01:30):
They're talking about, oh,the credit's going away.
Oh, what kind of charger do you have?
Oh, do you have a hybrid?
Oh, what kind of EV do you,I mean, it's, it's very, very
exciting to talk about EVs.
I also think that, people are, look, like,I, I, I hate to, this, I hate to point
out a big name in, in transportation.
and I, and I, I'm not trying to startoff controversially in any way, shape,
(01:52):
or form, but Elon Musk brings a lot ofattention to the transportation industry.
For whatever, whatever you feel about him.
Yeah, absolutely.
The world's richest man happensto be in transportation, Paul.
So obviously we're going totalk about transportation.
And I think a lot of people are,people are going to be focusing on
what this new Department of GovernmentEfficiency is going to do, what
(02:16):
it's not going to do, and how that'sgoing to affect transportation.
I think, I think this could be anextremely important couple of years.
Yeah, I'm right with you, Rudy.
I think this we're at a pivotal time.
I've been in conversations And we'rerecording this in December, but I've
been in conversations just in the lasttwo weeks, with a number of top public
transportation executives, CEOs, company,CEOs, they're all, you know, a little bit
(02:41):
of trepidation, but a lot of opportunity,Rudy, I just was in LA, right?
So our last episode of Transit UnpluggedTV, for this past month, of November,
was from Los Angeles, and we filmed therean episode with the, the top leaders at
LA Metro, with some of the top leadersat LADOT, and they were talking about
(03:01):
a car free, transit first Olympics.
Now, as we mentioned in the opening,you have a blog, you have a podcast,
you're, you know, in addition to being anattorney and someone who kind of advises
the transportation industry in a lotof aspects, especially when it comes to
financing bonds, et cetera, municipalbonds, you're, you're deeply involved
and ingrained in the LA Metro scene.
(03:23):
Give us some of your predictionsor what your thoughts are about.
Where LA Metro is now.
I mean, we just did a podcast with StevenTu, who's the head of station experience.
I think you listened to that one wherehe talked about the kind of the new
things they're doing there to, toaddress vandalism, crime on the system,
people feeling safe, doubling downon fares like a lot of systems are.
(03:43):
Give us your general thoughts and thenwhere you think we're headed on the
Olympic preparations for, you know, acar for, you know, they're gonna have
to borrow 2000 buses and all that.
Any thoughts you have on that beingthat you're right there in LA?
Absolutely, and I'm really glad youbrought up that topic because I'm
somebody that's extremely passionateabout transportation in Los Angeles.
I think you saw the video that I postedof, of, of me in my office when I, when
(04:04):
I had just put up a map of the PacificElectric Railway, that a map from 1926.
And then right underneath it is a,is like an artistic rendering of
the LA So when I say I think aboutthis stuff, I think about it with
deep passion and I care about it.
So I happen to live in theSouth Bay of Los Angeles.
South Bay is everythingthat's kind of south of LAX.
(04:26):
Traditionally, the South Bay was oneof the first areas of Los Angeles
that was serviced by the GreenLine, right, which was called, which
was called the train to nowhere.
It happened to go to NorthRedondo Beach to Norwalk.
It's funny because I happened togrow up pretty close to Norwalk
and then, and then I lived in NorthRedondo Beach for a long time.
And that, and that train has now, I bringthis up because that train has now been
(04:49):
converted as of a month ago to the new Kline, which is going to be, you know, kind
of along the west side of Los Angeles.
And right now there's a disconnect betweenthe, the K line isn't complete yet.
But hopefully soon it's going togo right through the LAX People
Mover and connect to the expo line.
So right now I happen to beliving in an area that's like
(05:09):
in this weird transit desert.
So if I sound a little bit Irritated it'sbecause I can't my my current transit
use has been disrupted But I'm hopefulfor the future and I'm doubling down on
hopeful for the future for the LA Metrofor a lot of reasons Number one Paul I am
seeing a lot more I'm seeing a lot morefocus on, on making things safe on Metro.
(05:32):
I use the Metro system.
I use a combination of the light rail.
I use the commuter express.
I use buses.
I use the silver line.
I use the route two 32.
I mean, I'm, I'm on thetransit system and I like it.
In fact, like, I actually try toplot out if I have, if I have a
spare Sunday or some spare time,I'll actually plot out like different
(05:55):
ways to get to places in Los Angeles.
Like, for example, as a result of thistransit disruption that, that occurred
with the switching over from the C toK line, I tried to figure out, okay,
well, how can I get to SoFi Stadium togo see the LA Rams by not using a car?
Unfortunately, it wasn't an easy thing todo because of the disruption of this line,
but hopefully soon enough that'll be allinterconnected and I could just take the
(06:17):
K line to the downtown Inglewood stationand then have a shuttle over from there.
Speaking of Inglewood, and speakingof the Olympics, and speaking of the
future of the LA Metro system, Thereis some disappointment in the fact
that the, the Inglewood, you know, it'scalled the, I forgot what it's called,
the Inglewood connector where theywere, they were planning on having a,
(06:38):
a little small little, people mover.
To connect you from the differentrail lines to the stadiums that are
now built in and around Inglewood.
I don't know if you were here, ifthey took you around Inglewood, but
that's going to be where a lot of theOlympics are going to take place because
the new Clipper Stadium is there.
It's called the Intuit Dome.
We have the SoFi Stadium and there's alot happening there for the Olympics and
(07:03):
they, they've got to figure something out.
I, unfortunately, I think lightrail is out of the question.
Because there's just not enough time.
Right.
And, Paul, it's kind of a pain.
parking in, in that area is, is expensive.
It's not an easy ingress.
It's not easy egress.
It's, it's kind of painful.
(07:23):
And I do think that should be the areaof focus over the next several years
because there's just a lot happeningin the Inglewood area, a lot of
concerts, a lot of sporting events.
So my hope is if anybody from LA Metro islistening to this, is that they do work
on, on solving something for the Olympics.
Now, is there actually goingto be a car free Olympics?
(07:46):
No.
Why?
Well, I just gave you one reasonbecause there, I mean, the Inglewood
people mover is not going to happen.
I think when they first said that therewas still hope that that was going to
be built, but I think now as a resultof that not getting built, that that
is just not going to be a reality.
Will it be mostly car free?
I hope so.
I hope so.
I, I plan on, I plan on only usingpublic transportation when the Olympics
(08:08):
are here, and I'm hopeful that LosAngelinos will help out the tourists,
help people out to navigate the system.
The system, the systemis not intuitive, Paul.
I, still to this day, even though there'sapps, even though you can go onto Google,
even though Metro, I think, does a prettygood job of putting out information
(08:30):
people just don't feel comfortableusing transportation in Los Angeles.
Why?
Because we grew up, because we grewup with the car, you know, you, you
figure out how to get around with a car.
you know, back in the day, all ofus, teenagers, all of us, gen Xers.
We had a Thomas guide.
Now these days with Googlemaps, you can drive everywhere.
I do think though that there's hopefor the with the younger generation
(08:53):
because a lot of people a lot ofyounger kids are not even bothering
getting their driver's licenses, right?
And and I do think that we should befocusing on those people who don't want
to drive we should be helping them.
There should be more support for them Ithink that that is something where you
know, I know this project that you and Iare working on might be one of the focuses
(09:15):
on is how can we help people not to drive?
How can we help people navigatepublic transportation in an easier
way and I yeah, I commend LA Metrofor making it safer And I think that
that needs to be the focus and theyalso need to get like, you know, like
people ambassadors, people who knowhow to use the system to promote it.
And that's what I try to do with thatnewsletter blog that I have, which I
(09:39):
call The Commute, which is on Substack.
I try to post videos of me ridingMetro, and showing, you know,
how to, how to navigate it.
And I think if we can get more peopleexcited about it on how to use it, then
I think we'll get more people on it andit'll become a part of their daily life.
Yeah.
Rudy and I are talking about 2025being the year that we do a potential
(09:59):
documentary on public transportationand the challenge or question that
we're talking about addressingpotentially could be, you know, what's
wrong with public transit America?
I just had a guy on the podcastrecently from Hong Kong.
90% percent of the peoplein Hong Kong ride transit.
I have people in London had this, the,the Transport for Commissioner in London,
Andy Lord, who, you know, very highpercentages, 40 to 50 percent of the
(10:22):
people in London use transit in America.
On a total average, especiallyoutside of New York City, less than 5
percent of people ride public transit.
What in the world's going on here?
why, so, so that's what we want toexplore potentially in this thing.
And I think it's that trust factor.
And I don't mind that my friendsand family and even some co
workers reach out to me and say,how do I get from here to here?
Even though they can literally typethat in, they want to hear Yeah.
(10:44):
me say it to them.
That's right.
Yeah.
And explain the little tricks about it.
So they feel more comfortable.
Cause it's still, even though LA isbuilding out this fantastic transportation
system that I'm very excited about,it's still alien to some people
because we didn't have it growing up.
So, you know, I think having adocumentary, having people talk
about transportation, havingpeople excited about it, having
(11:04):
people make it entertaining.
We'll take that 5%.
Can you imagine if we went from fiveto 10%, Paul, I mean, how, how that
would, how traffic would dissipate, howeverything would, would, would occur.
I don't know.
I mean, I'm very excitedfor the future of LA Metro.
What I'm, I, what I am curiousabout though, I haven't seen
much talk about this yet, and I'mhoping, I'm hoping there's going
(11:25):
to be more news stories about this.
As I mentioned, robo taxis are, are now inLos Angeles, they're now in San Francisco
. I'd like to see how those robo taxis are going to be serving some of these
transit deserts, and how those are,you know, those are going to be used.
Because otherwise, my opinion AVs, iswhat I think is somewhat controversial,
(11:47):
in that to me, a robotaki is, is, iscute, and it's cute for social media,
but it's just a car without a driver.
And, and after, you know, you filmedit 20 or 15 times or 30 times that
you're in a car without, who cares?
Like, how is that solvinga traffic problem?
Right.
It might actually add to it.
(12:07):
Definitely going to add to it.
And it's also, it's also, there'salready new stories coming out
about how ride share drivers,their, their earnings are dropping.
I mean, you know, we're in, some peopleare suffering economically, right?
I think that's why we've beenseeing some political changes here.
And so what ride share drivers,they're, they're now a big
source of incomes going away.
I don't know, like for me, thefuture of, of autonomous vehicles
(12:30):
is if we're just literally takingjobs away from ride share drivers.
I'm not interested in that.
If we are having autonomous vehicles bea part of the existing transportation
system, where we're literally, theyhave their own dedicated lanes, where
they are away from human drivers,where they're, where they're just
(12:51):
some minor little infrastructuretweaks so that, that, that these.
Driverless cars can talk to each other.
So they're not like turning around andhonking and going in the wrong ways.
If we just have these cars and theydon't need to be full cars, right?
They could be driverless pods.
They could be smaller little vehiclesand they're, and they compliment
an existing transportation system.
That excites me.
(13:12):
To me, that's maximizing the use andefficiency of driverless technology.
Robo taxis.
I'm not very excited about them at all.
That's my opinion.
I know maybe that's a littlebit too controversial.
Maybe I'm angering some people, but I havebeen writing that for over a decade now.
So I'm not trying topick on any companies.
I'm not trying to pick on anybody.
That's just my opinion.
I think we're not usingutilizing them to their maximum
(13:34):
use and safety and efficiency.
Yeah, on the public transit side, youmay be aware of this, but, Jacksonville
Transit Authority, Nat Ford, the CEO,has been quite a visionary there,
and he's developing, what they callthe ultimate urban circulator in
Jacksonville, where they have a separate,dedicated lanes that they already have,
They already have someservice on those lanes.
They would expand it beyond thetwo and a half miles, and it
(13:56):
would basically do what you said.
It would be ten to twelve passenger minibuses, That are autonomous, that would
run on regular schedules, that peoplecould pick up, and, it would not interfere
with existing traffic necessarily.
it would do all the things we talkedabout, integrate into the overall network.
There's a niche role.
I just got back from Australia.
And they're not doing muchwith autonomous vehicles there.
(14:18):
And they asked me, you know,what do you see the role as?
And I said, well, from my perspective,what's happening in the U.
S.
is we're refining what wethink the role of them are.
And it's a very niche application.
If you have a college campus whereparking is way away from the campus
and it's roasting hot or freezing cold,it'd be great to have a little shuttle
going back and forth all day long.
You can get into it and go back andforth to your class or a business campus.
(14:41):
But is it ever going to replace,you know, a 40 foot bus or a
light rail vehicle or a train?
Probably not.
but it does lead us to the idea ofindividually owned autonomous taxi cabs,
which are different than autonomous buses.
And we talked about Elon Musk, you know,President elect Trump's new best friend.
As they're calling him, he's, you know,obviously has Tesla and, while Trump
(15:02):
is saying drill, baby, drill, in his,you know, in his pronouncements, you
know, the his new best friend is saying,you know, I want electric vehicles.
So do you see those two conflicting?
Rudy?
Any thoughts on that?
No, I don't.
I mean, do they conflict on the surface?
Yeah, I do.
But are we ever gonna completelyeliminate fossil fuels?
No, not, not, Paul, not in yourlifetime and not in my lifetime.
(15:24):
Like, that's just, although,if you listen to Good Is In The
Details, it's a philosophy podcast.
There's an ongoing joke aboutme trying to live forever.
That it's a whole philosophy,fear of death type stuff.
And, and like, I'm, so like,Elon's trying to put implants
and transfer people to computers.
So, Elon, I will, Iwill, I will volunteer.
But that's not the point here.
no, I, fossil fuels are, they're,they're an important part.
(15:48):
Of the U.
S.
economy.
They're an important partof our security and safety.
They're an important part of our, youknow, economic powerhouse here, right?
What, what I like to see is theother day, I took my kids over to top
golf here in El Segundo and the EVcharging stations sponsored by Shell.
Right.
And that was, that was great.
I love, I love to see that thesetraditional fossil fuel companies
(16:12):
are getting more into cleanenergy and we can't just have an
immediate transition overnight.
Paul, that's just.
It's just not going to happen.
That's like me saying, Oh, driverless carswe should just rebuild the infrastructure
and then we can all go to sleep inour pods and never have to drive it.
It's going to be a slow transition.
And that's why we need to doubledown on our infrastructure.
(16:33):
Right.
And that's why I'm such a big proponentof talking about infrastructure finance,
talking about municipal bonds, educatingpeople about the importance of municipal
bonds, educating people about theimportance of finance in a clean way.
I mean, I'm, I'm not as worried aboutdrill bill baby drill as I am, you
(16:54):
know, about tax exemption going away.
Well, let's talk about that.
Yeah.
It's a big deal.
Let's switch over to that.
I think that's a very interestingtopic that people may not understand.
Can you explain that?
Sure.
Okay.
So United States, right.
Great country.
Guess what we have that no othercountry to my knowledge has
what tax exempt municipal bonds.
The vast majority of ourinfrastructure in this country
(17:17):
is financed by municipal bonds.
So if you own a municipal bond a taxexempt municipal bond because there's
taxable municipal bonds There's tax taxexempt municipal bonds But if you hold
a federally tax exempt municipal bond,you don't have to remit that interest to
the federal government Basically, it'sa subsidy from the federal government
allowing local governments, yourschools, your transit agencies, your
water agencies, et cetera, et cetera,hospitals, et cetera, et cetera, et
(17:41):
cetera, to borrow at lower interest rates.
So the cost of the infrastructure that weindividuals all use every day to take our
kids to school, to go to work, to travel.
It's a lower cost.
So tax cut and jobs act, 2017,first couple of renditions of it.
I definitely in the first one,muni tax exemption was gone, right?
(18:02):
Because they, they're making all thesetax cuts and they're shifting things
here and they're shifting things there.
They're like, well, we got totake from here in order to pay
from their muni tax exemption.
It was gone.
They muni tax exemptionwound up staying alive.
But they did make some changes that,that have impacted local governments.
One of them being that, thatyou can no longer advance refund
on a, on a, on a, you know, taxexempt basis, one time for free.
(18:25):
And now they're talking about, Hey,okay, no, let's not tax on tips.
Let's not tax on overtime, let's not tax.
And how are you gonna pay for that?
Well, one of the things thatpeople have been floating.
And maybe it's just people fear mongering.
Maybe it's clickbait.
I don't know, but having gone, havingbeen like in my, you know, mid to late,
mid to late thirties in 2017 and songtax exemption being in being talked about
(18:49):
being taken away, I got pretty scared.
And so seven, eight years later, I'm,I'm a little less afraid of it, but it's
something that we need to talk about.
If you get rid of tax exemption,the costs of borrowing for the local
governments will absolutely rise.
And so what does that mean?
Taxes will rise.
Property taxes may have to rise.
Are the fees may have to rise.
(19:10):
The sewer revenues mayhave to, the water revenue.
So we're going to pay for it.
The individuals will payfor it one way or the other.
So it's a scary thing formunicipal governments.
Obviously it's going toimpact transportation.
It's going to impact anything andeverything that you could think of.
That's how importantmuni tax exemption is.
That's good.
Yeah.
Just to, Elaborate onthat a little bit more.
(19:31):
So I think you know that in a previouslife, I was a county administrator
and a county commissioner.
And this is how it works, folks.
We go to the local cities and localcounty governments, the commissioners
and their finance folks go to New Yorkonce a year to the bond rating agencies
to Fitch standard and Poor's and Moody's,which I did these visits and we pitch
the county government, you know, QueenAnne's County, where I'm from, where
(19:54):
I was a county administrator, or whenI was in Charles County, Maryland.
This is why we're strong county and weyou can guarantee we can guarantee that
we're going to repay the debt that weborrow from you to build a new school
to buy some new buses for our countyto build a new road, to build a park,
to do astroturf on our on our soccerfields or football fields for our
(20:15):
high schools, all that stuff, anythingover, you know, half a million dollars.
Normally we bond that we don'tpay it with pay go money.
And so we borrow that money.
And so you'll see on your localgovernment's budget each year,
there's a line of debt service.
That's what that debt service is.
We're paying back the bonds and wenormally get really good interest rates.
Like Rudy just said, twoand a half, 3%, on these.
Whereas if you're borrowing yourown money, you know, you're, you're
(20:37):
trying to buy a house right now,you know, it's six and a half, 7%.
and so, like you said.
It's a lot less and institutionalinvestors will buy up these bonds
as, as will individuals, becausethey're tax free, as Rudy said.
And so if they weren't tax free anymore,the county government would then have
to pay higher interest rates on theamount of money that we borrowed, which
(20:59):
means that there would be less newprojects built or your taxes would go up.
So, that's the municipal sidefrom my mind Rudy's giving
you the finance side together.
They meet and kind of hopefullyshow you a full picture.
Let's move on to the next topic, Rudy.
That was great.
And that is the intersection ofentertainment and transportation.
You and I are both into that.
Most folks know we have a TV show, TransitUnplugged TV, which is a travel show.
(21:22):
Matter of fact, just yesterday,I did my first podcast interview
on another guy's travel podcast.
Talking about the travel we've donefor the show and what we've learned.
So, entertainment you know, we try toopen each episode of Transit Unplugged
TV with a fun, entertaining sequence.
For instance, I just did Australia.
We were in Brisbane.
We were gonna go jet skiing,to showcase the Noosa River.
(21:43):
And my, creative director came upwith a crazy idea, which we ended
up doing, which is what peoplewill see in the February episode.
Me opening like a James Bond movie,coming in with a full suit on, driving
the jet ski, you know, out there jumpingand all that in the suit, and then
coming in to open the show, you know, myname is Comfort, Paul Comfort, and I've
got a license to ride, and you know,it's funny stuff like that, so we try
(22:04):
to grab people's attention through theentertainment value and then show them
the food, fun and culture of a region,but then also how you can use public
transportation just like Rudy does in L.
A.
To get around that city to see allthe fun things we just showed you.
You've got another angle on entertainment.
Give us your angle.
Yeah, I mean it.
It's actually perfect that youbrought up entertainment right after
(22:24):
we just talked about funding, right?
Because maybe when people were listeningto the municipal bond part of this
whole thing, like, like they do, likemy wife, their, their eyes rolled or
they, they stopped paying attention.
just kidding, honey.
but yeah, most people, when I starttalking about muni bonds and tax
exemption, all that type of stuff,they're not paying attention.
So I got to go.
I'm thinking, how do I getpeople interested in this?
(22:44):
Yeah.
How do I get people to care?
And what you do on Transit Unpluggedand you're showing these public
transportation systems and you,and I watch transit and you showing
people how to get around the cities.
With it, that's where I thinkis the most important part.
If people can see what public transpothat public transportation system that's
(23:07):
alien to them, or they're afraid of,Paul, if they could see where their tax
dollars are going to, if they're seeingthat, oh my god, I don't need to rent
a car, oh my god, I don't have to waitin traffic, oh my god, I could sit with
my kids and have like free sightseeingvia a safe public transportation
system, then people will care more.
So the connection, the entertain, thedoubling down on entertainment by me and
(23:29):
by you is so people will care more abouttheir public transit systems, and maybe
they'll be willing to pay more, right?
Let's say muni tax exemption goes away.
Are we just gonna stopfunding public transportation?
No, we're gonna need to double downeven more on the importance of it.
And show people what they're getting fortheir dollars and how important it is,
especially if the costs are rising, Ilike to bring entertainment entertainment
(23:52):
into it just because it's, it's, I havesuch a deep passion for transportation.
I can't expect anybody tohave the passion for it.
And that passion was instilledin me from my grandmother.
She immigrated to this country in the 70s.
She didn't speak English.
And she taught herself how to use thebus system in North Orange County.
And she instilled in me from a very,very, very young age about what a great
(24:17):
country we live in because you can,you can use a bus system and you can
get around on public transportation.
And that stayed with mefor the rest of my life.
And as a result, I'm trying to likedouble down on that passion and
spread that to other people and say,Hey, look, like we should really
care about public transportation.
You know, you can use itfor entertainment purposes.
You can use it to get around.
(24:38):
You can spend more time with your family.
I'm, I'm a big believer, Paul.
And this is why I was talking about a lotabout the Inglewood people mover and how
important it is going to these stadiums.
The transportation aspect, Paul, ofgoing to an event can ruin an event.
Let me give you an example.
So I'm a big punk rock fan.
I was in a bunch of punkrock bands, back in the day.
(25:00):
I went to the, it was like punk rockWoodstock out in Pomona, California.
Okay.
It was called the no values concert.
I spent five and a half hoursingress and egress from this concert.
Yes.
And that, and it ruined it for me.
I wrote a Forbes.
com article about how horrible it wasthat they, and there was, and there
was literally a, a Metro link station,only a quarter of a mile away or a
(25:24):
half a mile away or easy shuttle bus.
They didn't coordinate the two and that.
And a lot of people, I mean, I wenton to Reddit, I went on a whole
bunch of places and a lot of peoplelike, I'll never go again, I'll
never go again, I'll never go again.
If you've ever been to a concertand had a horrible transportation
experience, it'll make you thinktwice about going to that concert.
Yeah, that's right.
I mean, it's one of the reasons whyI don't go to Coachella anymore.
(25:45):
I'm like, look, I've done it twice.
I can't do it.
I can't deal with it.
So there's a huge connection betweenenjoyment of entertainment events and
transportation and more people got tocare about that and more companies got
to care about that and more cities got tocare about that because if we're spending
the amount of dollars that we're spendingfor these sporting events and these
concerts and it's getting ruined becausebecause the ingress and egress and because
(26:09):
there's no option You know what thenpeople then the value of those concerts.
They might drop.
I don't know.
I mean, I mean, there's so muchvirtual reality these days with with
concerts and movies and sportingevents How is that going to impact
these live events if people reallyhate getting into and out of an event?
That's going to impact things.
(26:29):
So I think for business reasons, peopleshould care more about transportation.
That's my connection ofentertainment and transportation.
Yeah, that's great.
You know, there were big, musicconcerts across America and Canada
this year, by a certain starlet, verypopular singer that she was promoting.
Hey, use public transportationto get to my concerts.
Yeah, because she knew that it wasgoing to ruin people's experience.
(26:51):
Probably like you said, if they had towait around in big traffic, Taylor Swift.
Yeah.
I mean, everybody knows, knows it,but, yeah, she, God bless her, man.
Go ahead.
What'd you say?
No, I was just kidding.
I mean, she, I mean, that's fantastic.
She probably got people, Paul,to use public transportation for
the first time in their life.
And you know what?
They might use it again.
That's right.
Need more.
We need more Twitter, TaylorSwift saying this type of stuff.
(27:13):
I know Beyonce did something as well.
She worked with the Washington Metro,to like keep the trains going late
because it was raining and that's fine.
We need more, we need more artiststhat care about transportation.
That's why I talk incessantly about it.
All right, lightning round.
We're coming close to the end butI want to get your thoughts on
what I consider the three F's oftransportation going into 2025.
(27:33):
I recently spoke about this in Brisbaneand I want to get your take on it.
the first is fueling.
Where are we at on fuelingfor public transportation
going into 2025, do you think?
Yeah, I think electrification oftransportation is still going to be
a, pretty, pretty big, uh, uh, topic,um, um, on The Commute Substack.
I actually had a whole little sub articleabout, there was this electric train.
(27:56):
I think it's called, she calledthe Tesla train in Germany.
It's literally run on electricity inGermany and it's been a wonderful kind
of test case for clean transportation.
So obviously most light rails run onelectricity, but, but you know, big
rail is not still run on diesel fuel.
Yeah.
Heavy rail.
I actually worked on the Cal train.
Cal train is the big, train that runsfrom San Jose up to San Francisco.
(28:20):
And we worked on the financing forthe electrification of that train.
So I do think that electrificationis going to be big, into the future.
Now, is it just goingto be electrification?
What about hydrogen?
Everyone seems to be talkingabout hydrogen these days.
And that, you know, so I, I thinkfueling, will there be some drill baby
drill under Trump with, with fracking?
(28:40):
Yeah, I mean, I think there will be, andmaybe there'll be clean ways to do it.
But I don't thinkelectrification is going away.
I think we need to doubledown on building out our grid.
We need to, we need tothink about alternatives.
You know, I think, I think thenuclear conversation has to come
back into, into vogue, if you will,maybe smaller scale nuclear projects.
(29:01):
I know Google's lookingat a couple of them.
So fueling, when you talk about fuel,I'm not just literally talking about gas.
I'm talking about anythingthat can make things run.
And I think it, I think in 2025,that's one of the reasons, you know,
it's going to be pretty exciting.
Keolis, has proposed to MBTA, theMassachusetts Bay Transportation
Authority, in Boston for their commuterrail, it's the largest commuter rail
(29:21):
in America, to, start trying out newelectric trains that have big batteries
in them, so you have the catenary wiresabove, As you get close to the station,
but then as you get out on the trackand you get away from the wires, it
switches over to the batteries, andthen it comes back up at the other end.
They're doing that in other places inthe world is what I understand, but
this may be the first place in the U.
(29:42):
S., and so that looks likethat's moving forward.
The other thing I was going to mention,what I'm hearing from people on the
fueling side for public transportationis, there probably won't be any more
money coming from the FTA ,under
Trump for battery electric buses.
However that doesn't mean that there stillwon't be local funding and state funding
in states like California where you'reat, where they're going to continue to
(30:03):
provide a push toward that Let's moveto the second topic, and that is funding
where do you think funding will go?
As you know, in America, publictransportation is funded by a
mix of federal, state and localdollars and fares and advertising.
Do you have any thoughts on wherewe're going now that you know
ridership is still only around 70to 80 percent of transit agencies?
(30:23):
pandemic ridership.
Government agencies are, you know, allat coming to the end of the subsidies
that came from the federal governmentfor the CARES act, the CRISSA act
and the arpa act, which were unusualone time funding mechanisms to help
us make up for the impact of COVID
where do we go?
I mean, San Francisco BART is oneof the big agencies has been saying,
(30:43):
Hey, we're at our fiscal cliff.
Philadelphia just announced last month.
You got any thoughts on that?
Yeah, I do.
I got a lot of thoughts on the first one.
funding is going to be huge.
And I think there's a, there's a lot,I mean, I'm on conversations right
now with transit agencies out herein California and they're scared.
They just are I'm not going to name anynames, but we're, we're all watching.
And there's so many different.
(31:04):
things, aspects, of balls in the air,if you will, that can affect funding for
transit agencies that, and, and then, andthen you throw in, oh, and tax exemption
might go, might go away for, for munis.
I do think that what transit agenciesare doing with doubling down on fare
evaders, you know, I know that's a bigissue with LA Metro, I know the federal
(31:25):
government really cares about fare evadersand they sometimes tie funding to that.
And I think that's going to be,something that transit agencies
are going to have to focus on.
I think right now it's goingto be the wait and see.
I, do I think that the vastmajority of our transportation
funding is funded by the gas tax.
Okay.
Gas taxes.
You got the federal level at the statelevel, sometimes at the local level as
(31:47):
electric vehicles have been rising, right?
The gas tax has been impacted by that.
I've been arguing for years that, Hey,look guys, this is not sustainable.
We got to come up with something else tohelp with our, with our infrastructure.
Is it going to be vehicle miles traveled?
Is it going to be some kind of user fees?
I don't know.
Is that really going to berealistic under a Republican regime?
I don't know, but the realityis sorry to pick on EV drivers.
(32:11):
I mean, I love EVs and I, youknow, my wife has one and we have
a hybrid, et cetera, et cetera.
The reality is, the more EVs, the lessfinancing for roads because of the gas
tax, something's got to happen there.
So I think that thatneeds to be addressed.
Yeah.
Here in Maryland, the state where I'mat, there's a special commission looking
at exactly what you just said, Rudy,with the introduction of more EVs.
(32:32):
the gas tax is going down and so thereis a lot of talk of at least even if we
don't go to road uses charges at leastraising the registration fees for battery
electric cars to be the equivalent ofwhat the average person may spend in gas
tax in a year to make it fair to make itequitable so that you're look electric
cars driving on the same roads the gascar is driving on you should help pay
(32:52):
for road maintenance, and I don't thinkpeople would see that's unfair I've just
done a series of actually a podcast aboutthat and and talks with one of my friends
the former secretary of Transportationof California who is working on that, for
the company he works for now And so it'sa hot topic last one you you touched on
it Give us a little bit more on faring.
So there was a lot of, you know,people fell in love with the
(33:14):
idea that transit could be free,free, free after the pandemic.
And then they realized, wait aminute, really what people want
when you do surveys, and by theway, it's the same in Australia.
When you say, why aren'tyou riding transit?
First is, it's not frequent enough.
Second is, it doesn't gowhere I want it to go.
Third is, I don't feel safe on it.
Fourth is, oh, I got to pay for it.
So it's not even in the top three.
And transit agencies needmore money now, not less.
(33:37):
What are your thoughts onfaring going into 2025?
And the reason why I even brought upfaring with the whole fiscal cliff aspect
of it is exactly what you're saying whenthese transit agencies fall off that
fiscal cliff, right, that's when theygo into the death spiral was the death
spiral is well the only way that they'regoing to be able to stay, you know,
operable is if they start cutting service.
Well, guess what happens whenyou start cutting service?
(33:58):
Exactly.
You get less people on it.
Now, out here in California, a lotof our transit agencies, they're,
a lot of the projects at least, andprobably some of the operations,
they're funded by sales taxes, right?
We have the county, L.
A.
Metro's primarily fundedby, county wide sales taxes.
They have many of those measures.
And so, Anytime you buy anything in L.
A.
County and it's subject to thesales tax, a portion of that
(34:19):
goes to the transit agency.
Not every transit agency hasthe benefit of a sales tax.
Some agencies like BART, they,they, they're ticket fares, right?
So it's like, it's all about,is it fare box revenue that's
your primary funding source?
Or is it sales tax revenues?
So, If you're, if you're fare boxrevenue dependent, there's no way you
could be free if you're, if you're moresales tax dependent, you know, yeah,
(34:42):
I guess, I guess you could be free.
I'm not a big believer in free.
I mean, there's a lot ofprograms for students.
There's a lot of program properly.
So for, for disabled and ed orelderly and veteran, I mean, a lot
of those programs aren't there.
Yeah.
I think if people can afford it.
In fact.
I think by paying for it, theyrealize how much money that they
save by using public transportation.
(35:03):
How much did you save on parking?
How much did you save on that,on not using the toll road?
How much did you saveon, on car maintenance?
And let's just take itjust one step further.
What about the health benefitsof public transportation?
What about the walking?
I think this is my opinion, and ifthis is controversial, I apologize.
I think there's an obesity epidemic inAmerica because we're not walking enough.
(35:25):
I think the car, while wonderful as it is,has definitely contributed to the negative
health aspects of where we are at.
And I think if people actually implementedpublic transportation more, they
would also, you know, be healthier.
That's that's that's what I do.
I I purposely sometimes even stop astation or two away If I know there's like
(35:47):
a hill or if I know there's like a nicelittle walk I will I will do that extra
walk to get in even more steps in my day.
That's what I try to do
That's a great idea Now I haven't reallythought about that the Maybe that's,
maybe that'll be a partof the documentary.
Yeah, the walking.
I thought of the health, butI've never thought about it being
the walking to the bus stop.
That's a really good point.
We don't get enough steps in our life.
(36:07):
We are very sedentary these days.
And, you know, with, likeyou said, everything virtual.
We sit in our houses, onour couch, or on our phones.
Dude, that's a really good point and agreat way to kind of wrap up the show.
Thank you so much, Rudy, for beinga part of the Transit Unplugged
podcast in our New Year's Eveepisode as we look into 2025.
I'm sure we'll check back withyou later in 2025 and see if
(36:29):
your predictions came true.
Sounds great, Paul.
Thank you for this opportunity.
I look forward to working with you.
Thank you for listening to thefinal episode of Transit Unplugged
of 2024, and thanks to ourguest Rudy Salo for joining us.
Hi, I'm Tris Hussey, editor ofthe podcast, and coming up for
(36:49):
our first episode of 2025, we havethe second episode from Australia.
Now next week, we have a true transitlegend on the show, Howard Collins.
Howard has been in transit for over 47years and is currently the Coordinator
General for Transport for New South Wales.
(37:10):
In this captivating interview withPaul, Howard dispenses invaluable wisdom
about transit, careers, and leadership,all the while expressing his passion
for transit and the work he does.
Don't miss this episode coming back to youon our usual Wednesday publishing slot.
(37:31):
Transit Unplugged isbrought to you by Modaxo.
At Modaxo, we're passionate aboutmoving the world's people, and at
Transit Unplugged, we're passionateabout telling those stories.
So until next week and next year,we wish you a Happy New Year.
Thanks for being with us todayon our New Year's Eve special on
Transit Unplugged, the world'sleading transit executive podcast.
I have with me a newfriend, Rudy Salo, from L.
A.
He and I today are going to delveinto what we think are the hottest
topics coming for transit in 2025.
Rudy, welcome to the show.
Paul, thank you very much.
And I love the fact that this is beingreleased in 2025, because dare I say
(00:27):
2025 could be one of the most excitingyears in transportation as we know it.
Really?
Tell me why.
There's, there's a lot ofvery interesting reasons why.
I think that For the first time inmy lifetime, when I'm talking about
transportation, people are not justrolling their eyes going, oh my God, this
(00:48):
guy's talking about this boring topic.
Right.
And by the way, to be fair, I don'thang out with a bunch of transit.
folk, right?
I mean I hang out with I wasright about to say normal people,
but that's pretty insulting.
I hang out with non transitprofessionals Most of the time I
happen to be the one that's the mostpassionate about transit, but people
are talking about transportationWhat are they talking about Paul?
(01:10):
They're talking about robo taxis.
I happen to live in Los Angeles robotaxis have been launched here That
they're not yet in my area of LosAngeles, because I live in the South
Bay, kind of close to LAX, and theycurrently don't go to LAX, but I'm sure
with the Olympics coming here, Yeah.
It's, something's gonna happen.
People are talkingabout electric vehicles.
(01:30):
They're talking about, oh,the credit's going away.
Oh, what kind of charger do you have?
Oh, do you have a hybrid?
Oh, what kind of EV do you,I mean, it's, it's very, very
exciting to talk about EVs.
I also think that, people are, look, like,I, I, I hate to, this, I hate to point
out a big name in, in transportation.
and I, and I, I'm not trying to startoff controversially in any way, shape,
(01:52):
or form, but Elon Musk brings a lot ofattention to the transportation industry.
For whatever, whatever you feel about him.
Yeah, absolutely.
The world's richest man happensto be in transportation, Paul.
So obviously we're going totalk about transportation.
And I think a lot of people are,people are going to be focusing on
what this new Department of GovernmentEfficiency is going to do, what
(02:16):
it's not going to do, and how that'sgoing to affect transportation.
I think, I think this could be anextremely important couple of years.
Yeah, I'm right with you, Rudy.
I think this we're at a pivotal time.
I've been in conversations And we'rerecording this in December, but I've
been in conversations just in the lasttwo weeks, with a number of top public
transportation executives, CEOs, company,CEOs, they're all, you know, a little bit
(02:41):
of trepidation, but a lot of opportunity,Rudy, I just was in LA, right?
So our last episode of Transit UnpluggedTV, for this past month, of November,
was from Los Angeles, and we filmed therean episode with the, the top leaders at
LA Metro, with some of the top leadersat LADOT, and they were talking about
(03:01):
a car free, transit first Olympics.
Now, as we mentioned in the opening,you have a blog, you have a podcast,
you're, you know, in addition to being anattorney and someone who kind of advises
the transportation industry in a lotof aspects, especially when it comes to
financing bonds, et cetera, municipalbonds, you're, you're deeply involved
and ingrained in the LA Metro scene.
(03:23):
Give us some of your predictionsor what your thoughts are about.
Where LA Metro is now.
I mean, we just did a podcast with StevenTu, who's the head of station experience.
I think you listened to that one wherehe talked about the kind of the new
things they're doing there to, toaddress vandalism, crime on the system,
people feeling safe, doubling downon fares like a lot of systems are.
(03:43):
Give us your general thoughts and thenwhere you think we're headed on the
Olympic preparations for, you know, acar for, you know, they're gonna have
to borrow 2000 buses and all that.
Any thoughts you have on that beingthat you're right there in LA?
Absolutely, and I'm really glad youbrought up that topic because I'm
somebody that's extremely passionateabout transportation in Los Angeles.
I think you saw the video that I postedof, of, of me in my office when I, when
(04:04):
I had just put up a map of the PacificElectric Railway, that a map from 1926.
And then right underneath it is a,is like an artistic rendering of
the LA So when I say I think aboutthis stuff, I think about it with
deep passion and I care about it.
So I happen to live in theSouth Bay of Los Angeles.
South Bay is everythingthat's kind of south of LAX.
(04:26):
Traditionally, the South Bay was oneof the first areas of Los Angeles
that was serviced by the GreenLine, right, which was called, which
was called the train to nowhere.
It happened to go to NorthRedondo Beach to Norwalk.
It's funny because I happened togrow up pretty close to Norwalk
and then, and then I lived in NorthRedondo Beach for a long time.
And that, and that train has now, I bringthis up because that train has now been
(04:49):
converted as of a month ago to the new Kline, which is going to be, you know, kind
of along the west side of Los Angeles.
And right now there's a disconnect betweenthe, the K line isn't complete yet.
But hopefully soon it's going togo right through the LAX People
Mover and connect to the expo line.
So right now I happen to beliving in an area that's like
(05:09):
in this weird transit desert.
So if I sound a little bit Irritated it'sbecause I can't my my current transit
use has been disrupted But I'm hopefulfor the future and I'm doubling down on
hopeful for the future for the LA Metrofor a lot of reasons Number one Paul I am
seeing a lot more I'm seeing a lot morefocus on, on making things safe on Metro.
(05:32):
I use the Metro system.
I use a combination of the light rail.
I use the commuter express.
I use buses.
I use the silver line.
I use the route two 32.
I mean, I'm, I'm on thetransit system and I like it.
In fact, like, I actually try toplot out if I have, if I have a
spare Sunday or some spare time,I'll actually plot out like different
(05:55):
ways to get to places in Los Angeles.
Like, for example, as a result of thistransit disruption that, that occurred
with the switching over from the C toK line, I tried to figure out, okay,
well, how can I get to SoFi Stadium togo see the LA Rams by not using a car?
Unfortunately, it wasn't an easy thing todo because of the disruption of this line,
but hopefully soon enough that'll be allinterconnected and I could just take the
(06:17):
K line to the downtown Inglewood stationand then have a shuttle over from there.
Speaking of Inglewood, and speakingof the Olympics, and speaking of the
future of the LA Metro system, Thereis some disappointment in the fact
that the, the Inglewood, you know, it'scalled the, I forgot what it's called,
the Inglewood connector where theywere, they were planning on having a,
(06:38):
a little small little, people mover.
To connect you from the differentrail lines to the stadiums that are
now built in and around Inglewood.
I don't know if you were here, ifthey took you around Inglewood, but
that's going to be where a lot of theOlympics are going to take place because
the new Clipper Stadium is there.
It's called the Intuit Dome.
We have the SoFi Stadium and there's alot happening there for the Olympics and
(07:03):
they, they've got to figure something out.
I, unfortunately, I think lightrail is out of the question.
Because there's just not enough time.
Right.
And, Paul, it's kind of a pain.
parking in, in that area is, is expensive.
It's not an easy ingress.
It's not easy egress.
It's, it's kind of painful.
(07:23):
And I do think that should be the areaof focus over the next several years
because there's just a lot happeningin the Inglewood area, a lot of
concerts, a lot of sporting events.
So my hope is if anybody from LA Metro islistening to this, is that they do work
on, on solving something for the Olympics.
Now, is there actually goingto be a car free Olympics?
(07:46):
No.
Why?
Well, I just gave you one reasonbecause there, I mean, the Inglewood
people mover is not going to happen.
I think when they first said that therewas still hope that that was going to
be built, but I think now as a resultof that not getting built, that that
is just not going to be a reality.
Will it be mostly car free?
I hope so.
I hope so.
I, I plan on, I plan on only usingpublic transportation when the Olympics
(08:08):
are here, and I'm hopeful that LosAngelinos will help out the tourists,
help people out to navigate the system.
The system, the systemis not intuitive, Paul.
I, still to this day, even though there'sapps, even though you can go onto Google,
even though Metro, I think, does a prettygood job of putting out information
(08:30):
people just don't feel comfortableusing transportation in Los Angeles.
Why?
Because we grew up, because we grewup with the car, you know, you, you
figure out how to get around with a car.
you know, back in the day, all ofus, teenagers, all of us, gen Xers.
We had a Thomas guide.
Now these days with Googlemaps, you can drive everywhere.
I do think though that there's hopefor the with the younger generation
(08:53):
because a lot of people a lot ofyounger kids are not even bothering
getting their driver's licenses, right?
And and I do think that we should befocusing on those people who don't want
to drive we should be helping them.
There should be more support for them Ithink that that is something where you
know, I know this project that you and Iare working on might be one of the focuses
(09:15):
on is how can we help people not to drive?
How can we help people navigatepublic transportation in an easier
way and I yeah, I commend LA Metrofor making it safer And I think that
that needs to be the focus and theyalso need to get like, you know, like
people ambassadors, people who knowhow to use the system to promote it.
And that's what I try to do with thatnewsletter blog that I have, which I
(09:39):
call The Commute, which is on Substack.
I try to post videos of me ridingMetro, and showing, you know,
how to, how to navigate it.
And I think if we can get more peopleexcited about it on how to use it, then
I think we'll get more people on it andit'll become a part of their daily life.
Yeah.
Rudy and I are talking about 2025being the year that we do a potential
(09:59):
documentary on public transportationand the challenge or question that
we're talking about addressingpotentially could be, you know, what's
wrong with public transit America?
I just had a guy on the podcastrecently from Hong Kong.
90% percent of the peoplein Hong Kong ride transit.
I have people in London had this, the,the Transport for Commissioner in London,
Andy Lord, who, you know, very highpercentages, 40 to 50 percent of the
(10:22):
people in London use transit in America.
On a total average, especiallyoutside of New York City, less than 5
percent of people ride public transit.
What in the world's going on here?
why, so, so that's what we want toexplore potentially in this thing.
And I think it's that trust factor.
And I don't mind that my friendsand family and even some co
workers reach out to me and say,how do I get from here to here?
Even though they can literally typethat in, they want to hear Yeah.
(10:44):
me say it to them.
That's right.
Yeah.
And explain the little tricks about it.
So they feel more comfortable.
Cause it's still, even though LA isbuilding out this fantastic transportation
system that I'm very excited about,it's still alien to some people
because we didn't have it growing up.
So, you know, I think having adocumentary, having people talk
about transportation, havingpeople excited about it, having
(11:04):
people make it entertaining.
We'll take that 5%.
Can you imagine if we went from fiveto 10%, Paul, I mean, how, how that
would, how traffic would dissipate, howeverything would, would, would occur.
I don't know.
I mean, I'm very excitedfor the future of LA Metro.
What I'm, I, what I am curiousabout though, I haven't seen
much talk about this yet, and I'mhoping, I'm hoping there's going
(11:25):
to be more news stories about this.
As I mentioned, robo taxis are, are now inLos Angeles, they're now in San Francisco
. I'd like to see how those robo taxis are going to be serving some of these
transit deserts, and how those are,you know, those are going to be used.
Because otherwise, my opinion AVs, iswhat I think is somewhat controversial,
(11:47):
in that to me, a robotaki is, is, iscute, and it's cute for social media,
but it's just a car without a driver.
And, and after, you know, you filmedit 20 or 15 times or 30 times that
you're in a car without, who cares?
Like, how is that solvinga traffic problem?
Right.
It might actually add to it.
(12:07):
Definitely going to add to it.
And it's also, it's also, there'salready new stories coming out
about how ride share drivers,their, their earnings are dropping.
I mean, you know, we're in, some peopleare suffering economically, right?
I think that's why we've beenseeing some political changes here.
And so what ride share drivers,they're, they're now a big
source of incomes going away.
I don't know, like for me, thefuture of, of autonomous vehicles
(12:30):
is if we're just literally takingjobs away from ride share drivers.
I'm not interested in that.
If we are having autonomous vehicles bea part of the existing transportation
system, where we're literally, theyhave their own dedicated lanes, where
they are away from human drivers,where they're, where they're just
(12:51):
some minor little infrastructuretweaks so that, that, that these.
Driverless cars can talk to each other.
So they're not like turning around andhonking and going in the wrong ways.
If we just have these cars and theydon't need to be full cars, right?
They could be driverless pods.
They could be smaller little vehiclesand they're, and they compliment
an existing transportation system.
That excites me.
(13:12):
To me, that's maximizing the use andefficiency of driverless technology.
Robo taxis.
I'm not very excited about them at all.
That's my opinion.
I know maybe that's a littlebit too controversial.
Maybe I'm angering some people, but I havebeen writing that for over a decade now.
So I'm not trying topick on any companies.
I'm not trying to pick on anybody.
That's just my opinion.
I think we're not usingutilizing them to their maximum
(13:34):
use and safety and efficiency.
Yeah, on the public transit side, youmay be aware of this, but, Jacksonville
Transit Authority, Nat Ford, the CEO,has been quite a visionary there,
and he's developing, what they callthe ultimate urban circulator in
Jacksonville, where they have a separate,dedicated lanes that they already have,
They already have someservice on those lanes.
They would expand it beyond thetwo and a half miles, and it
(13:56):
would basically do what you said.
It would be ten to twelve passenger minibuses, That are autonomous, that would
run on regular schedules, that peoplecould pick up, and, it would not interfere
with existing traffic necessarily.
it would do all the things we talkedabout, integrate into the overall network.
There's a niche role.
I just got back from Australia.
And they're not doing muchwith autonomous vehicles there.
(14:18):
And they asked me, you know,what do you see the role as?
And I said, well, from my perspective,what's happening in the U.
S.
is we're refining what wethink the role of them are.
And it's a very niche application.
If you have a college campus whereparking is way away from the campus
and it's roasting hot or freezing cold,it'd be great to have a little shuttle
going back and forth all day long.
You can get into it and go back andforth to your class or a business campus.
(14:41):
But is it ever going to replace,you know, a 40 foot bus or a
light rail vehicle or a train?
Probably not.
but it does lead us to the idea ofindividually owned autonomous taxi cabs,
which are different than autonomous buses.
And we talked about Elon Musk, you know,President elect Trump's new best friend.
As they're calling him, he's, you know,obviously has Tesla and, while Trump
(15:02):
is saying drill, baby, drill, in his,you know, in his pronouncements, you
know, the his new best friend is saying,you know, I want electric vehicles.
So do you see those two conflicting?
Rudy?
Any thoughts on that?
No, I don't.
I mean, do they conflict on the surface?
Yeah, I do.
But are we ever gonna completelyeliminate fossil fuels?
No, not, not, Paul, not in yourlifetime and not in my lifetime.
(15:24):
Like, that's just, although,if you listen to Good Is In The
Details, it's a philosophy podcast.
There's an ongoing joke aboutme trying to live forever.
That it's a whole philosophy,fear of death type stuff.
And, and like, I'm, so like,Elon's trying to put implants
and transfer people to computers.
So, Elon, I will, Iwill, I will volunteer.
But that's not the point here.
no, I, fossil fuels are, they're,they're an important part.
(15:48):
Of the U.
S.
economy.
They're an important partof our security and safety.
They're an important part of our, youknow, economic powerhouse here, right?
What, what I like to see is theother day, I took my kids over to top
golf here in El Segundo and the EVcharging stations sponsored by Shell.
Right.
And that was, that was great.
I love, I love to see that thesetraditional fossil fuel companies
(16:12):
are getting more into cleanenergy and we can't just have an
immediate transition overnight.
Paul, that's just.
It's just not going to happen.
That's like me saying, Oh, driverless carswe should just rebuild the infrastructure
and then we can all go to sleep inour pods and never have to drive it.
It's going to be a slow transition.
And that's why we need to doubledown on our infrastructure.
(16:33):
Right.
And that's why I'm such a big proponentof talking about infrastructure finance,
talking about municipal bonds, educatingpeople about the importance of municipal
bonds, educating people about theimportance of finance in a clean way.
I mean, I'm, I'm not as worried aboutdrill bill baby drill as I am, you
(16:54):
know, about tax exemption going away.
Well, let's talk about that.
Yeah.
It's a big deal.
Let's switch over to that.
I think that's a very interestingtopic that people may not understand.
Can you explain that?
Sure.
Okay.
So United States, right.
Great country.
Guess what we have that no othercountry to my knowledge has
what tax exempt municipal bonds.
The vast majority of ourinfrastructure in this country
(17:17):
is financed by municipal bonds.
So if you own a municipal bond a taxexempt municipal bond because there's
taxable municipal bonds There's tax taxexempt municipal bonds But if you hold
a federally tax exempt municipal bond,you don't have to remit that interest to
the federal government Basically, it'sa subsidy from the federal government
allowing local governments, yourschools, your transit agencies, your
water agencies, et cetera, et cetera,hospitals, et cetera, et cetera, et
(17:41):
cetera, to borrow at lower interest rates.
So the cost of the infrastructure that weindividuals all use every day to take our
kids to school, to go to work, to travel.
It's a lower cost.
So tax cut and jobs act, 2017,first couple of renditions of it.
I definitely in the first one,muni tax exemption was gone, right?
(18:02):
Because they, they're making all thesetax cuts and they're shifting things
here and they're shifting things there.
They're like, well, we got totake from here in order to pay
from their muni tax exemption.
It was gone.
They muni tax exemptionwound up staying alive.
But they did make some changes that,that have impacted local governments.
One of them being that, thatyou can no longer advance refund
on a, on a, on a, you know, taxexempt basis, one time for free.
(18:25):
And now they're talking about, Hey,okay, no, let's not tax on tips.
Let's not tax on overtime, let's not tax.
And how are you gonna pay for that?
Well, one of the things thatpeople have been floating.
And maybe it's just people fear mongering.
Maybe it's clickbait.
I don't know, but having gone, havingbeen like in my, you know, mid to late,
mid to late thirties in 2017 and songtax exemption being in being talked about
(18:49):
being taken away, I got pretty scared.
And so seven, eight years later, I'm,I'm a little less afraid of it, but it's
something that we need to talk about.
If you get rid of tax exemption,the costs of borrowing for the local
governments will absolutely rise.
And so what does that mean?
Taxes will rise.
Property taxes may have to rise.
Are the fees may have to rise.
(19:10):
The sewer revenues mayhave to, the water revenue.
So we're going to pay for it.
The individuals will payfor it one way or the other.
So it's a scary thing formunicipal governments.
Obviously it's going toimpact transportation.
It's going to impact anything andeverything that you could think of.
That's how importantmuni tax exemption is.
That's good.
Yeah.
Just to, Elaborate onthat a little bit more.
(19:31):
So I think you know that in a previouslife, I was a county administrator
and a county commissioner.
And this is how it works, folks.
We go to the local cities and localcounty governments, the commissioners
and their finance folks go to New Yorkonce a year to the bond rating agencies
to Fitch standard and Poor's and Moody's,which I did these visits and we pitch
the county government, you know, QueenAnne's County, where I'm from, where
(19:54):
I was a county administrator, or whenI was in Charles County, Maryland.
This is why we're strong county and weyou can guarantee we can guarantee that
we're going to repay the debt that weborrow from you to build a new school
to buy some new buses for our countyto build a new road, to build a park,
to do astroturf on our on our soccerfields or football fields for our
(20:15):
high schools, all that stuff, anythingover, you know, half a million dollars.
Normally we bond that we don'tpay it with pay go money.
And so we borrow that money.
And so you'll see on your localgovernment's budget each year,
there's a line of debt service.
That's what that debt service is.
We're paying back the bonds and wenormally get really good interest rates.
Like Rudy just said, twoand a half, 3%, on these.
Whereas if you're borrowing yourown money, you know, you're, you're
(20:37):
trying to buy a house right now,you know, it's six and a half, 7%.
and so, like you said.
It's a lot less and institutionalinvestors will buy up these bonds
as, as will individuals, becausethey're tax free, as Rudy said.
And so if they weren't tax free anymore,the county government would then have
to pay higher interest rates on theamount of money that we borrowed, which
(20:59):
means that there would be less newprojects built or your taxes would go up.
So, that's the municipal sidefrom my mind Rudy's giving
you the finance side together.
They meet and kind of hopefullyshow you a full picture.
Let's move on to the next topic, Rudy.
That was great.
And that is the intersection ofentertainment and transportation.
You and I are both into that.
Most folks know we have a TV show, TransitUnplugged TV, which is a travel show.
(21:22):
Matter of fact, just yesterday,I did my first podcast interview
on another guy's travel podcast.
Talking about the travel we've donefor the show and what we've learned.
So, entertainment you know, we try toopen each episode of Transit Unplugged
TV with a fun, entertaining sequence.
For instance, I just did Australia.
We were in Brisbane.
We were gonna go jet skiing,to showcase the Noosa River.
(21:43):
And my, creative director came upwith a crazy idea, which we ended
up doing, which is what peoplewill see in the February episode.
Me opening like a James Bond movie,coming in with a full suit on, driving
the jet ski, you know, out there jumpingand all that in the suit, and then
coming in to open the show, you know, myname is Comfort, Paul Comfort, and I've
got a license to ride, and you know,it's funny stuff like that, so we try
(22:04):
to grab people's attention through theentertainment value and then show them
the food, fun and culture of a region,but then also how you can use public
transportation just like Rudy does in L.
A.
To get around that city to see allthe fun things we just showed you.
You've got another angle on entertainment.
Give us your angle.
Yeah, I mean it.
It's actually perfect that youbrought up entertainment right after
(22:24):
we just talked about funding, right?
Because maybe when people were listeningto the municipal bond part of this
whole thing, like, like they do, likemy wife, their, their eyes rolled or
they, they stopped paying attention.
just kidding, honey.
but yeah, most people, when I starttalking about muni bonds and tax
exemption, all that type of stuff,they're not paying attention.
So I got to go.
I'm thinking, how do I getpeople interested in this?
(22:44):
Yeah.
How do I get people to care?
And what you do on Transit Unpluggedand you're showing these public
transportation systems and you,and I watch transit and you showing
people how to get around the cities.
With it, that's where I thinkis the most important part.
If people can see what public transpothat public transportation system that's
(23:07):
alien to them, or they're afraid of,Paul, if they could see where their tax
dollars are going to, if they're seeingthat, oh my god, I don't need to rent
a car, oh my god, I don't have to waitin traffic, oh my god, I could sit with
my kids and have like free sightseeingvia a safe public transportation
system, then people will care more.
So the connection, the entertain, thedoubling down on entertainment by me and
(23:29):
by you is so people will care more abouttheir public transit systems, and maybe
they'll be willing to pay more, right?
Let's say muni tax exemption goes away.
Are we just gonna stopfunding public transportation?
No, we're gonna need to double downeven more on the importance of it.
And show people what they're getting fortheir dollars and how important it is,
especially if the costs are rising, Ilike to bring entertainment entertainment
(23:52):
into it just because it's, it's, I havesuch a deep passion for transportation.
I can't expect anybody tohave the passion for it.
And that passion was instilledin me from my grandmother.
She immigrated to this country in the 70s.
She didn't speak English.
And she taught herself how to use thebus system in North Orange County.
And she instilled in me from a very,very, very young age about what a great
(24:17):
country we live in because you can,you can use a bus system and you can
get around on public transportation.
And that stayed with mefor the rest of my life.
And as a result, I'm trying to likedouble down on that passion and
spread that to other people and say,Hey, look, like we should really
care about public transportation.
You know, you can use itfor entertainment purposes.
You can use it to get around.
(24:38):
You can spend more time with your family.
I'm, I'm a big believer, Paul.
And this is why I was talking about a lotabout the Inglewood people mover and how
important it is going to these stadiums.
The transportation aspect, Paul, ofgoing to an event can ruin an event.
Let me give you an example.
So I'm a big punk rock fan.
I was in a bunch of punkrock bands, back in the day.
(25:00):
I went to the, it was like punk rockWoodstock out in Pomona, California.
Okay.
It was called the no values concert.
I spent five and a half hoursingress and egress from this concert.
Yes.
And that, and it ruined it for me.
I wrote a Forbes.
com article about how horrible it wasthat they, and there was, and there
was literally a, a Metro link station,only a quarter of a mile away or a
(25:24):
half a mile away or easy shuttle bus.
They didn't coordinate the two and that.
And a lot of people, I mean, I wenton to Reddit, I went on a whole
bunch of places and a lot of peoplelike, I'll never go again, I'll
never go again, I'll never go again.
If you've ever been to a concertand had a horrible transportation
experience, it'll make you thinktwice about going to that concert.
Yeah, that's right.
I mean, it's one of the reasons whyI don't go to Coachella anymore.
(25:45):
I'm like, look, I've done it twice.
I can't do it.
I can't deal with it.
So there's a huge connection betweenenjoyment of entertainment events and
transportation and more people got tocare about that and more companies got
to care about that and more cities got tocare about that because if we're spending
the amount of dollars that we're spendingfor these sporting events and these
concerts and it's getting ruined becausebecause the ingress and egress and because
(26:09):
there's no option You know what thenpeople then the value of those concerts.
They might drop.
I don't know.
I mean, I mean, there's so muchvirtual reality these days with with
concerts and movies and sportingevents How is that going to impact
these live events if people reallyhate getting into and out of an event?
That's going to impact things.
(26:29):
So I think for business reasons, peopleshould care more about transportation.
That's my connection ofentertainment and transportation.
Yeah, that's great.
You know, there were big, musicconcerts across America and Canada
this year, by a certain starlet, verypopular singer that she was promoting.
Hey, use public transportationto get to my concerts.
Yeah, because she knew that it wasgoing to ruin people's experience.
(26:51):
Probably like you said, if they had towait around in big traffic, Taylor Swift.
Yeah.
I mean, everybody knows, knows it,but, yeah, she, God bless her, man.
Go ahead.
What'd you say?
No, I was just kidding.
I mean, she, I mean, that's fantastic.
She probably got people, Paul,to use public transportation for
the first time in their life.
And you know what?
They might use it again.
That's right.
Need more.
We need more Twitter, TaylorSwift saying this type of stuff.
(27:13):
I know Beyonce did something as well.
She worked with the Washington Metro,to like keep the trains going late
because it was raining and that's fine.
We need more, we need more artiststhat care about transportation.
That's why I talk incessantly about it.
All right, lightning round.
We're coming close to the end butI want to get your thoughts on
what I consider the three F's oftransportation going into 2025.
(27:33):
I recently spoke about this in Brisbaneand I want to get your take on it.
the first is fueling.
Where are we at on fuelingfor public transportation
going into 2025, do you think?
Yeah, I think electrification oftransportation is still going to be
a, pretty, pretty big, uh, uh, topic,um, um, on The Commute Substack.
I actually had a whole little sub articleabout, there was this electric train.
(27:56):
I think it's called, she calledthe Tesla train in Germany.
It's literally run on electricity inGermany and it's been a wonderful kind
of test case for clean transportation.
So obviously most light rails run onelectricity, but, but you know, big
rail is not still run on diesel fuel.
Yeah.
Heavy rail.
I actually worked on the Cal train.
Cal train is the big, train that runsfrom San Jose up to San Francisco.
(28:20):
And we worked on the financing forthe electrification of that train.
So I do think that electrificationis going to be big, into the future.
Now, is it just goingto be electrification?
What about hydrogen?
Everyone seems to be talkingabout hydrogen these days.
And that, you know, so I, I thinkfueling, will there be some drill baby
drill under Trump with, with fracking?
(28:40):
Yeah, I mean, I think there will be, andmaybe there'll be clean ways to do it.
But I don't thinkelectrification is going away.
I think we need to doubledown on building out our grid.
We need to, we need tothink about alternatives.
You know, I think, I think thenuclear conversation has to come
back into, into vogue, if you will,maybe smaller scale nuclear projects.
(29:01):
I know Google's lookingat a couple of them.
So fueling, when you talk about fuel,I'm not just literally talking about gas.
I'm talking about anythingthat can make things run.
And I think it, I think in 2025,that's one of the reasons, you know,
it's going to be pretty exciting.
Keolis, has proposed to MBTA, theMassachusetts Bay Transportation
Authority, in Boston for their commuterrail, it's the largest commuter rail
(29:21):
in America, to, start trying out newelectric trains that have big batteries
in them, so you have the catenary wiresabove, As you get close to the station,
but then as you get out on the trackand you get away from the wires, it
switches over to the batteries, andthen it comes back up at the other end.
They're doing that in other places inthe world is what I understand, but
this may be the first place in the U.
(29:42):
S., and so that looks likethat's moving forward.
The other thing I was going to mention,what I'm hearing from people on the
fueling side for public transportationis, there probably won't be any more
money coming from the FTA ,under
Trump for battery electric buses.
However that doesn't mean that there stillwon't be local funding and state funding
in states like California where you'reat, where they're going to continue to
(30:03):
provide a push toward that Let's moveto the second topic, and that is funding
where do you think funding will go?
As you know, in America, publictransportation is funded by a
mix of federal, state and localdollars and fares and advertising.
Do you have any thoughts on wherewe're going now that you know
ridership is still only around 70to 80 percent of transit agencies?
(30:23):
pandemic ridership.
Government agencies are, you know, allat coming to the end of the subsidies
that came from the federal governmentfor the CARES act, the CRISSA act
and the arpa act, which were unusualone time funding mechanisms to help
us make up for the impact of COVID
where do we go?
I mean, San Francisco BART is oneof the big agencies has been saying,
(30:43):
Hey, we're at our fiscal cliff.
Philadelphia just announced last month.
You got any thoughts on that?
Yeah, I do.
I got a lot of thoughts on the first one.
funding is going to be huge.
And I think there's a, there's a lot,I mean, I'm on conversations right
now with transit agencies out herein California and they're scared.
They just are I'm not going to name anynames, but we're, we're all watching.
And there's so many different.
(31:04):
things, aspects, of balls in the air,if you will, that can affect funding for
transit agencies that, and, and then, andthen you throw in, oh, and tax exemption
might go, might go away for, for munis.
I do think that what transit agenciesare doing with doubling down on fare
evaders, you know, I know that's a bigissue with LA Metro, I know the federal
(31:25):
government really cares about fare evadersand they sometimes tie funding to that.
And I think that's going to be,something that transit agencies
are going to have to focus on.
I think right now it's goingto be the wait and see.
I, do I think that the vastmajority of our transportation
funding is funded by the gas tax.
Okay.
Gas taxes.
You got the federal level at the statelevel, sometimes at the local level as
(31:47):
electric vehicles have been rising, right?
The gas tax has been impacted by that.
I've been arguing for years that, Hey,look guys, this is not sustainable.
We got to come up with something else tohelp with our, with our infrastructure.
Is it going to be vehicle miles traveled?
Is it going to be some kind of user fees?
I don't know.
Is that really going to berealistic under a Republican regime?
I don't know, but the realityis sorry to pick on EV drivers.
(32:11):
I mean, I love EVs and I, youknow, my wife has one and we have
a hybrid, et cetera, et cetera.
The reality is, the more EVs, the lessfinancing for roads because of the gas
tax, something's got to happen there.
So I think that thatneeds to be addressed.
Yeah.
Here in Maryland, the state where I'mat, there's a special commission looking
at exactly what you just said, Rudy,with the introduction of more EVs.
(32:32):
the gas tax is going down and so thereis a lot of talk of at least even if we
don't go to road uses charges at leastraising the registration fees for battery
electric cars to be the equivalent ofwhat the average person may spend in gas
tax in a year to make it fair to make itequitable so that you're look electric
cars driving on the same roads the gascar is driving on you should help pay
(32:52):
for road maintenance, and I don't thinkpeople would see that's unfair I've just
done a series of actually a podcast aboutthat and and talks with one of my friends
the former secretary of Transportationof California who is working on that, for
the company he works for now And so it'sa hot topic last one you you touched on
it Give us a little bit more on faring.
So there was a lot of, you know,people fell in love with the
(33:14):
idea that transit could be free,free, free after the pandemic.
And then they realized, wait aminute, really what people want
when you do surveys, and by theway, it's the same in Australia.
When you say, why aren'tyou riding transit?
First is, it's not frequent enough.
Second is, it doesn't gowhere I want it to go.
Third is, I don't feel safe on it.
Fourth is, oh, I got to pay for it.
So it's not even in the top three.
And transit agencies needmore money now, not less.
(33:37):
What are your thoughts onfaring going into 2025?
And the reason why I even brought upfaring with the whole fiscal cliff aspect
of it is exactly what you're saying whenthese transit agencies fall off that
fiscal cliff, right, that's when theygo into the death spiral was the death
spiral is well the only way that they'regoing to be able to stay, you know,
operable is if they start cutting service.
Well, guess what happens whenyou start cutting service?
(33:58):
Exactly.
You get less people on it.
Now, out here in California, a lotof our transit agencies, they're,
a lot of the projects at least, andprobably some of the operations,
they're funded by sales taxes, right?
We have the county, L.
A.
Metro's primarily fundedby, county wide sales taxes.
They have many of those measures.
And so, Anytime you buy anything in L.
A.
County and it's subject to thesales tax, a portion of that
(34:19):
goes to the transit agency.
Not every transit agency hasthe benefit of a sales tax.
Some agencies like BART, they,they, they're ticket fares, right?
So it's like, it's all about,is it fare box revenue that's
your primary funding source?
Or is it sales tax revenues?
So, If you're, if you're fare boxrevenue dependent, there's no way you
could be free if you're, if you're moresales tax dependent, you know, yeah,
(34:42):
I guess, I guess you could be free.
I'm not a big believer in free.
I mean, there's a lot ofprograms for students.
There's a lot of program properly.
So for, for disabled and ed orelderly and veteran, I mean, a lot
of those programs aren't there.
Yeah.
I think if people can afford it.
In fact.
I think by paying for it, theyrealize how much money that they
save by using public transportation.
(35:03):
How much did you save on parking?
How much did you save on that,on not using the toll road?
How much did you saveon, on car maintenance?
And let's just take itjust one step further.
What about the health benefitsof public transportation?
What about the walking?
I think this is my opinion, and ifthis is controversial, I apologize.
I think there's an obesity epidemic inAmerica because we're not walking enough.
(35:25):
I think the car, while wonderful as it is,has definitely contributed to the negative
health aspects of where we are at.
And I think if people actually implementedpublic transportation more, they
would also, you know, be healthier.
That's that's that's what I do.
I I purposely sometimes even stop astation or two away If I know there's like
(35:47):
a hill or if I know there's like a nicelittle walk I will I will do that extra
walk to get in even more steps in my day.
That's what I try to do
That's a great idea Now I haven't reallythought about that the Maybe that's,
maybe that'll be a partof the documentary.
Yeah, the walking.
I thought of the health, butI've never thought about it being
the walking to the bus stop.
That's a really good point.
We don't get enough steps in our life.
(36:07):
We are very sedentary these days.
And, you know, with, likeyou said, everything virtual.
We sit in our houses, onour couch, or on our phones.
Dude, that's a really good point and agreat way to kind of wrap up the show.
Thank you so much, Rudy, for beinga part of the Transit Unplugged
podcast in our New Year's Eveepisode as we look into 2025.
I'm sure we'll check back withyou later in 2025 and see if
(36:29):
your predictions came true.
Sounds great, Paul.
Thank you for this opportunity.
I look forward to working with you.
Thank you for listening to thefinal episode of Transit Unplugged
of 2024, and thanks to ourguest Rudy Salo for joining us.
Hi, I'm Tris Hussey, editor ofthe podcast, and coming up for
(36:49):
our first episode of 2025, we havethe second episode from Australia.
Now next week, we have a true transitlegend on the show, Howard Collins.
Howard has been in transit for over 47years and is currently the Coordinator
General for Transport for New South Wales.
(37:10):
In this captivating interview withPaul, Howard dispenses invaluable wisdom
about transit, careers, and leadership,all the while expressing his passion
for transit and the work he does.
Don't miss this episode coming back to youon our usual Wednesday publishing slot.
(37:31):
Transit Unplugged isbrought to you by Modaxo.
At Modaxo, we're passionate aboutmoving the world's people, and at
Transit Unplugged, we're passionateabout telling those stories.
So until next week and next year,we wish you a Happy New Year.
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