25 FROZEN, 1 THAWED—Bob Cyphers

25 Frozen, 1 Thawed: Murder and Mayhem in the Midwest takes readers deep into the heart of unsolved mysteries and chilling crimes that have haunted communities across the Midwest.
From small towns shattered by sudden disappearances to cities rocked by violent acts, each chapter brings a different story—twenty-five cases left frozen in time, still waiting for justice. The book explores murders that stunned neighborhoods, kidnappings that tore families apart, and mysteries that investigators chased for years. In these pages, the quiet streets of Missouri, Illinois, and beyond become the backdrop for secrets, heartbreak, and unanswered questions.
But not every case remains locked in ice. One story breaks free—the “thawed” case—where persistence and detail uncovered the truth and shows that even the coldest mysteries can sometimes find resolution.
With a journalist’s eye for fact and a storyteller’s gift for detail, Cyphers presents the lives lost, the families still searching for answers, and the investigators who refused to give up. Rather than sensationalizing tragedy, the book restores humanity to the victims while revealing the lasting impact of crime on entire communities.
25 Frozen, 1 Thawed is a testament to memory, resilience, and the hope that justice may yet be found—even decades later. 25 FROZEN, 1 THAWED: Murder and Mayhem in the Midwest—Bob Cyphers

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:07):
You are now listening to True Murder, the most shocking
killers in true crime history and the authors that have
written about them Gaesy Bundy Dahmer, The Nightstalker VTK. Every
week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and
infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with your

(00:29):
host journalist and author Dan Zupanski, Good Evening.

Speaker 2 (00:41):
Twenty five Frozen One Thought, Murder and Mayhem in the
Midwest takes readers deep into the heart of unsolved mysteries
and chilling crimes that have haunted communities across the Midwest,
from small towns shattered by sudden disappearances to cities rock
by violent acts. Each chapter brings a different story twenty

(01:05):
five cases left frozen in time, still waiting for justice.
The book explores murders that stun neighborhoods, kidnappings that tore
families apart, and mysteries that investigators chased for years. In
these pages, the quiet streets of Missouri, Illinois and beyond

(01:25):
become the backdrop for secrets, heartbreak, and unanswered questions. But
not every case remains locked in ice. One story breaks free,
the Thowd case, where persistence and detail uncover the truth
and shows that even the coldest mysteries can sometimes find

(01:45):
resolution with a journalist's eye for fact and as storytellers
gift for detail. Cypher's presents the lives lost, the families
still searching for answers, and the investigators who refused to
give up. Rather than sensationalizing tragedy, the book restores humanity

(02:07):
to the victims while revealing the lasting impact of crime
on entire communities. Twenty five Frozen One Thought is a
testament to memory, resilience, and the hope that justice may
yet be found, even decades later. The book that we're

(02:27):
featuring this evening is twenty five Frozen One thowd Murder
and Mayhem in the Midwest with my special guest, journalist
and author Bob Ciphers. Welcome back to the program, and
thank you very much for this interview.

Speaker 3 (02:44):
Bob Ciphers, Thank you, Dan.

Speaker 2 (02:47):
Let's start with how you became involved in this book project,
twenty five Frozen One Thought. What's the origin of this
book project?

Speaker 3 (02:57):
Well, I work my whole life as a journalist radio, TV, newspapers,
small market, middle market, large market. My last thirty five
years were it cam OVTV to CBS affiliate in Saint Louis,
and my last year there I spent working with police
departments the FBI travel in the country chasing down the
I seventy serial killer. They formed a task force. It

(03:19):
was a case still unsolved, and when I retired, I
wrote the book on that and I really figured that
was done. It was my first really effort at a
book of bet sorts. You know, I didn't know what
the expectation was. I had no writing background or anything
for writing a book. But the book did really well.
And true crime is, as you well know, out there

(03:42):
in the in the marketplace right now. And my publisher
got back to me and said, you know, what else
do you have? But it was like, well, what else
do I have? I covered stories for thirty five years,
and so I put together a list of a lot
of stories I covered that were interesting cold cases talk about.
But my mind kept going back to the one case

(04:04):
that was not a cold case, but was thought that
was a cold case that was solved. And so thus
twenty five frozen one thought. If you like them cold
or if you like them thought, I think the book has.

Speaker 2 (04:15):
Both yes and very remarkable stories we won't be able
to cover and even discuss at any kind of length
the twenty five frozen cold cases that you have featured
in this book. But let's start with the very first
one you called the Never Ending Story nineteen eighty three,
and again the television station that you mentioned that you

(04:37):
worked at, KMOVTV, Saint Louis and the case of Larry
and Denise Wolfe. Tell us a little bit about this
TV broadcast of their nuptials and what happened after.

Speaker 3 (04:55):
The television station was covering a different news story at
City Hall, but while they were there, there was a
wedding taken place, and it was like, hey, let's shoot
a few pictures of the wedding. It might be a
nice kicker or a way to end the newscast, you know,
you give the viewers a half an hour of gory
details and try to leave them with a smile on
their face. And the wedding happened to be Larry wolf

(05:18):
and his bride, Denise. They ran home and told everybody
how they were going to be on TV, and that's
how their TV world began. Well, of course, later it
did not end quite as well, as Denise was murdered
and Larry became a suspect, and the case never got
solved because it had so many crazy twists and turns

(05:40):
in between that it just the police department wound up
just throwing their hands up in the air and saying,
we have no chance here. This is so crazy, this
is so goofy beyond the pale, and you've got a
woman laying dead in her driveway and a husband standing
right next door. Basically, but it never got.

Speaker 2 (06:01):
Well, let's go into this just a little bit because
it's such a fascinating story. There was this as you
write this, Dennis Rabbit, the south Side rapist, was on
the loose in the area. And so you talk about
Denise and Larry getting married, but this was the fourth
marriage for Denise, and this marriage didn't work out either.

(06:28):
But they had a sort of a strange relationship. They
decided to separate. Larry bought a house nearby, about one
hundred yards away, and so they had this sort of
strange relationship where they weren't together, but they were often
seen together and did things with their daughter, so they
were seen together. They were known by the family at

(06:50):
least that they had this amicable split and that they
still remain friends. But because of this Dennis Rabbit, this
notorious south Side rapist. It was on the loose. Denise
was very careful and installed some measures with her garage
so that she would go directly from the driveway into

(07:12):
the garage and then I guess into the home because
of the South Side rapist. So tell us what happens
one morning despite these precautions.

Speaker 3 (07:22):
Well, she worked at a casino and worked the late
night shift, and at that point in time it appears
she may have had a relationship with a worker there.
Larry may have been known of that. Larry, as you said,
a strange relationship, living right a couple houses down the street.
He bought from her, but he seemed to know everything

(07:45):
she was doing, and at almost all times he was
really watching over her, if you will. And she came
home that night and at four point thirty in the
morning from work, and as soon as she went through
her front yard, within seconds the gun fire rang out.
I think she was She arrived home a little bit
around four thirty or so, and by four thirty five

(08:07):
neighbors had already called the police. Houses riddled with bullets.
The niece is lying face down on the sidewalk, and
within minutes ems has arrived and the quiet block that
was asleep a minute ago is now going crazy. Larry
lived just literally like one hundred yards away. Police went

(08:28):
to his house and he answered the door as he
was asleep and boxer shorts. While the other neighbors all
said they heard stuff, Larry said he didn't hear a thing.
The niece died at the hospital within the hour, and
by the time the sun rose, that whole neighborhood was
just swamp with police officers going door to door.

Speaker 2 (08:49):
With the security system that I mentioned, police realized that
she did not do what she had that security system for.
She didn't drive directly into that drive way. She did
something other that indicated something else, at least to the police.

Speaker 3 (09:06):
Yeah, it indicated that she had a conversation with somebody
or something happened in that five minutes between four thirty
and four thirty five four thirty six that paused her. Otherwise,
she'd have pulled into that garage at four thirty four
thirty one. So there had to be a second element
in play, and obviously there was. She was shot, but

(09:28):
she did not pull right in. She paused. What would
she pause for? What would anybody pause for? In your
driveway at four thirty in the morning. You're not going
to pause for a complete stranger to have a conversation.
She was either apprehended immediately or she paused because she
knew somebody and that allowed her to believe she was

(09:50):
able to have a safe conversation at that hour.

Speaker 2 (09:55):
Very interesting too, is that when the ambulance took his
wife and he didn't know that condition, she was still alive.
He did not go with her in that ambulance to
the hospital.

Speaker 3 (10:07):
And he went back to bed.

Speaker 2 (10:08):
He said, Now you introduce a homicide detective which is
featured or is often appears in these stories, and that's
detective Chris Poppas he said that you quote him as
saying that they had no idea. Police really had no
idea really what happened until Laurie Lynn Cherko turned the

(10:30):
case upside down. Can you explain what she had to
say to police?

Speaker 3 (10:34):
Well, she became the eyewitness, but her story changed half
a dozen times, and once the police started investigating, it
was like, wait a minute, you sent us down this path,
and now you've changed your mind. We're going down the
second path, third path, fourth path. And she became the
star attraction because every week it was a new story

(10:58):
out of her mouth, and pretty soon Larry the Husband
was no where to be in there, and then Larry
the Husband is right there. It's like, you know, it's
just police had a hard time taking her seriously. And
then she started going on the radio stations on her
own and talking about the case. She started feuding with attorneys.

(11:18):
It became really but she may have been one of
the most bizarre witnesses that police have ever encountered in
any investigation that I ever dealt with. And it just
got to the point as the police were ready to
go and make charges on the case against Larry the Husband,
that the defense attorney made it obvious. You put her
on the we're gonna put around the witness stand. We're

(11:40):
gonna say her story has changed to half a dozen times.
What's the jury gonna believe? Is that a b CD
e F And once police realized that she had no credibility,
and yet she was the focal interest in the entire investigation,
the case went south.

Speaker 2 (12:00):
Very interesting. If we go back, there was a witness
that said that there was a gray van or similar
color with the stripe on it seen leaving the scene,
and also that there was reports of by a neighbor
that he had heard shots at four thirty seven am.
And so very interesting when again police look into Lynn

(12:26):
Cherko's story that she happens to have a husband, that
they have very similar living arrangements as Larry and Denise
had in that they don't live together. But his name
is Marcello Cherko, and he just happened to own a
gray van with a stripe on it, and he also
owned a high power rifle similar to the murder weapon

(12:48):
police theorize was used.

Speaker 3 (12:52):
And keep in mind, Dan, these were elements or new
twists in the tail that kept coming out over time. Oh,
by the way, Cherko has a husband living in the
same relationship as you mentioned. Oh by the way, remember
the van I told you about. Guess what, my husband

(13:13):
has that same band. But she's not telling police this.
Originally this is month's end or her fifth story. It
was new clues being dropped, almost like you know, Ansel
and Gretel dropping little brugg crumbs along the path, and
each breadcrumb she would drop seemed to become bigger than
the last one, and it was like police saying, how

(13:37):
can this come out? Now where's this bend? And it
just it just became you know, do we go meet
with her again for the eighth time, because who knows
what the story is going to be then, and it
just became a puzzle that the piece is just you
could never fit together.

Speaker 2 (13:58):
And they got to the point where she agreed to
write a formal statement and then at the last minute
said she refused.

Speaker 3 (14:07):
Correct.

Speaker 2 (14:08):
Now, despite that, the police figure that they at least
have enough to make an indictment. So what do the
police do with that?

Speaker 3 (14:16):
Well, they're ready to go forward. I mean, Larry Wolf
sat in jail for a year and a half. Even
his attorney at Richard Sindel, he says, you know, he
told me, Bob, I don't know if he's guilty or not.
He's the only guy that had a motive, so I
can understand why the police were looking at him. But
you know, the state still has a burden of proof
and they weren't going to do that with Cherko on

(14:39):
the witness stand. So where would they go from there?
In the meantime, you know, Larry Wolf since then has
passed away and the police department has just basically closed
the case because they issued warrants on him for the arrest.
But once the case went sizzled and once he died,
there was no second back. There was no second person

(15:02):
with motive. There was no random person they thought was
roaming the streets at four point thirty in the morning,
hiding behind a bush, waiting to kill Denise. And so
this case is really not closed. This case is frozen.

Speaker 2 (15:17):
But Jesus has an opportunity to stop to hear these messages.
Let's move on to the next story. And you write,
this is called where is Gina? And this is Fredericktown, Missouri.
You say a population of three thousand in August fifth,
nineteen eighty nine, and you introduce a lieutenant, Keith de Spain.

(15:40):
So tell us about Gina don Brooks and when she
said goodbye to her mother Cindy Box and told her
she was going on a bike ride around ten thirty pm.

Speaker 3 (15:52):
Yeah, this was really heartbreaking. This story really happened. As
soon as I arrived at camb Movie in Saint Louis.
Little girl just disappears on a bike and she became
perhaps in our area. There the original milk carton girl
missing with no explanation. She's riding a bicycle after a

(16:13):
baseball games at ten o'clock at night or so. And
it's a small safe town in the middle of nowhere.
It's not a crime infested area. And the next thing
you know, her bike is in the middle of the
street and she's gone and she's never been seen since.
And for the parents, the heartbreak, the search, the years

(16:34):
have gone by. For a Chief di Stain who worked
the case, just gnaws at him every day. They have suspects,
they have leads in pacted. Just in the last six months.
They took a prisoner out of jail, handcuffed and went
to a scene in rural Missouri where he may have

(16:58):
told them to start digging, and they dug and they
found nothing. Really really said, you know, you cover all
these stories and these are heart They're all heartbreaking stories
for me, But the ones that always stick with me
are the ones with children and the devastating effect they
have on the parents that are left behind, and in
Gina's case, because of the elements of her being so

(17:22):
young in a small safe town, and then suspects that
they couldn't quite nail, and the story developing over time
with new leads and good leads and hard leads and
perhaps confessions and still not being able to get the closure.
Just very frustrating.

Speaker 2 (17:42):
Let's go back to this horror you talk about that
that she went on a bike ride and was a
station wagon behind her. Notice the station wagon again, and
station wagon sped away with Gina as inside. Obviously this
is all assumed, and the bike was found lying on

(18:02):
the street just five blocks from her home. Now two am,
Cindy awoke and found her daughter not at home and
panicked and so went to lieutenant to Spain, and he
put two and two together because there was a report
of a girl missing on a bicycle. So he becomes

(18:26):
involved in this investigation.

Speaker 3 (18:28):
He knew right away, you know in a small town,
that's not what you usually see. You got a missing girl,
you got a bicycle on a street, you got a
reports of a car street, you know, streaking away they went,
They went out quickly. By daybreak that town was crawling
with everybody. So Keith did a really good job of

(18:51):
getting people in their city, county, state. I know, the
Feds were there. They had hundreds of people that were
searching various counties. I mean, they brought in horror on
the ground. They had airplanes, they had helicopters. I remember
being down there and seeing all the people and the
yellow ribbons that were on all the trees. It was
a The city was out looking for Gina. I mean,

(19:11):
they they came out in mass house people, you know,
everybody went out there to the streets looking for her.
And there was nothing. There was just literally no clues
for them. It was just a girl who disappeared off
the face of the ears.

Speaker 2 (19:28):
You say, years went by without a solid lead, and
then a letter from Connecticut having nothing to do with
Gina changed the game completely. Laura Michelle Dinwittie had been
ordered in Saint Louis in nineteen seventy five, you write,
and the case went cold. Now near twenty years later,

(19:51):
Saint Louis homicide commander David Heath found a letter from
Laura's mom in Connecticut asking him to never forget her daughter.
Laura case. Tell us how these two cases get connected
by police?

Speaker 3 (20:05):
Yeah, really interesting and in fact, Laura Dinwittie's case is
also one of the twenty five frozen cases. Later in
the book. She was a social worker from Connecticut who
was well off financially and came to Saint Louis to
work with the Vista program just to basically one step
above volunteer for hardly any money, and wound up getting

(20:26):
murdered in Saint Louis. But her family writes the letter,
and David Heath was the homicide commander at the time.
The family kept writing the letter on Laura's behalf, you know,
every year, and ten or so years later, twenty years later,
the letter gets a response. He says, let's look at
this case of Dinwittie. And as he's looking at the

(20:47):
case for Dinwittie, he gives the letter over to Detective Pappus,
who also worked a never ending story case, and as
they're investigating Dinwittie, they see the suspect. There was a
fourteen year old team named Danny Williams. He was later
admitted being at the scene of the murder, although said
he didn't do it well. Pappus is now investigating the

(21:10):
letter in the Dimwitty case, looking into Williams' background, and
then he sees that Williams has been sentenced for raping girls,
sodomizing girls, little girls. He's a constant person that's been
in jail, and so now he starts looking at him
as a possible connection for Gina Dawn Brooks, and they

(21:32):
start putting two and two together, and before they know it,
Williams's brother had a close friend who lived in Fredericktown,
right near Gina, and Williams was a frequent visitor to
the area. So now they've gone from trying to help
this dinwitty family from a twenty year old homicide in
Connecticut to suddenly trying to track down a killer for

(21:55):
a case happening right now with Gina don Brooks. They
brought Willialliams in for a polygraph and he failed it
and that's when he became suspect number one and still
is in the GENA case.

Speaker 2 (22:09):
What of the cellmate that says he has some information?

Speaker 1 (22:14):
What of that?

Speaker 3 (22:16):
Yeah? There were two other people that police alleged were
involved with Williams with the Gina disappearance, Bryant Squires and
Timothy Blue. They were both friends of his. They'd both
be implicated in the police investigation, but as time came

(22:36):
along Squires in Blue they wound up in the same
prison with Williams for different crimes. And Ss was Williams's
best friend. He was the person that tied Williams to
Gina all along. And he was dying of cancer in
nineteen ninety six, so this is what seven years after

(22:57):
Gina has disappeared. But before he died, he made a
deathbed confession to two different nurses implicating Williams in the case,
and even it put himself in there. He says he
was the driver of the station wagon that night that
abducted Gina, and he said Williams held her by knife

(23:17):
in the back seat and killed her. But he died.
And in the case of lag you're now bringing nurses
in to quote hearsay evidence. It's a question of whether
or not how well that would hold up in a
court case.

Speaker 2 (23:35):
You say that it was Papa's who walked into Williams
prison cell and personally served him with the murder warrant,
and he said he wasn't surprised.

Speaker 3 (23:44):
Oh I remember Chris told me. He said, Bob, he
says to me, he goes, what took you so long
to get here? And then when he Pappus is giving
him all the information he's got on the case, Williams
was like, wow, you did your work. How'd you get
all this? But they charged him. They charged him in

(24:05):
two thousand and three for murder. He pled not guilty.
But then when the state realized they didn't have quite enough,
you know, you've got no body and now squires who
talk to the nurses is dead. They were not certain
of their case and they dropped the charges because they
feared if he got off innocent and something came up later,

(24:26):
they couldn't charge him again for double jeopardy. So Williams
was tucked in jail for a long long time, and
it's like, let's let's let him sit there. If we
get more evidence later on, we can go for murder.
But for right now, he's sitting there and we're going
to keep looking at this case. And they still are.

Speaker 2 (24:45):
You say that detectives are still looking at this case,
but they also believe he could be connected to up
to a dozen murders across the country.

Speaker 3 (24:53):
Well, when you've got a rap sheet starting as a
thirteen or fourteen year old for attacking other young female girls,
and it continues into your adulthood and it's a long list,
the police are going to look at every single case
out there and see was Williams in the area of
these cases at this time? Did he have any connection

(25:17):
to any of those victims. And so yeah, he's he's
got the rap sheet, he's got the background, he's got
Squire's pinpointing him. You know, he clearly is suspect number one,
and that has never changed.

Speaker 2 (25:36):
Absolutely. Let's use this as an opportunity to stop to
hear these messages. Now you take us to Frozen three.
And this is a story you title was it Rodney
or Dale and the case of Audrey Cardinis. You say
she got her diploma from Texas A and M in

(25:57):
May nineteen eighty eight, now heading across the country to Belleville, Illinois,
where she would spend the summer interning at the Belleville
News Democrat, and a career in journalism was on the horizon.
She arrived on June eighth, the Shadow journalists and she
was excited, but she missed home. On June eighteenth, she

(26:20):
called her mom, Billy, tell us about what this conversation
was and this story.

Speaker 3 (26:29):
Well, I think the conversation was she missed home. You know,
she grew up her whole life in Texas and now
she's a young person to start in a business that's
traveling across the country. It's the same thing I did
a long, long time ago. You work and then you
get a job offer somewhere and you pack your bags

(26:49):
and you go. You have to you have to step
up and get to bigger markets to make more money.
And so for her first job, this was Belleville, which
I'm sure was different from her, and she was homesick
and her mother knew it. And ironically, because this happened
in Belleville, that's where I wound up living. So this

(27:11):
was right down the street she was. You know, her
body was found at Belleville Least High School, where my
kids and every other kid had to walk into class
every day. And her body was found in the shrubbery
by the steps leaving right up into the school. You know,
it's been a haunting scene for all the years since.

(27:32):
But I think, you know, she was excited about the
work from what I could find out, But she was
also homesick, and Belleville wasn't Texas.

Speaker 2 (27:44):
You write that she police tracked her down, tracked her movements.
That she went to the bank at eight thirty am
for some transaction and then she left from there. She
was supposed to show up at work for ten am.
When she didn't show up at work, the newspaper, I
guess called and by two or three days they realized

(28:06):
that there was something wrong, but they attributed to her
maybe just going back to Texas again because that was
where she was from, and maybe she was homesick.

Speaker 3 (28:17):
She was just interning, She was just starting out. She
didn't know anybody in town. It wasn't like she'd made friends,
and it's like they had plans or anything. The only time.
The only people she knew remotely were the employees at work,
but she only knew them at work, and probably not
even yet on a daily on a first name basis,

(28:37):
have only been there a couple of days, those veteran
professional workers doing their nine to five every day. If
the intern didn't show up that day, who probably notices?
Probably nobody. So it took a few days before people
to realize, you know, where was that girl was? Her
name was Audrey? Is she coming in? It took a

(28:58):
couple of days before they realized. I think that she
was missing.

Speaker 2 (29:05):
Right away police found a suspect, Rodney Woidke, twenty five
year old homeless drifter. He wandered inside the roped off
crime scene, so he was asked to if they could
search his backpack, and they found letters about sex fantasies

(29:25):
and bystanders had said that they had seen Rodney in
the area acting strangely. So they had this person and
was questioned by police. What happens as a result of
this questioning.

Speaker 3 (29:37):
He was just too easy of a suspect. I mean,
if you're the homicide detectives, you've got a body laying
in a creek bed, and all of a sudden, a
man walks into the crime scene area, and you know,
he can't explain what he's doing there. He's got some
cuts on his face. He's carrying around though, like you said,

(30:00):
the information about the sex fantasies. It was just like, boy,
they've delivered our murder suspect right into our laps. He's
a homeless drifter and evidence started piling up on him.
It just it was almost too good to be true. Police,
for like, you know, usually we have to go out
and find the killers, and here he is just standing

(30:22):
here waiting for us. He told them that he lived
at the Salvation Army. Police went there and said they'd
never heard of him. It's just everything started looking bad
for him. Then he said he lived in the woods
by the school right where the body was found. It
was like too good to be true, and he started

(30:42):
then he started confessing. He said he hid argue with
a pipe, then he changed his mind. Then he said
he left her when she was alive, and then he
said he came back and hit her again three or
four more times. There was no physical evidence to connecting,
and some of his stuff because he appeared to be
mentally challenged, did not match. But for police, they thought

(31:04):
they had their killer. But they also realized he was
a mental patient. Basically it gave them pause. But still
it just seemed overwhelming that everything that he was there
for pointed to him being her killer.

Speaker 2 (31:18):
Well, he was found guilty and sentenced to forty five years,
So they thought they had their men, but then you
take us too. In the days before Cardinas arrived in
Belleville Dale, Anderson had called again the Belleville News Democrat
with a juicy tip. He just filed charges against three

(31:39):
of his supervisors at the Illinois Department of Public Aid,
accusing them of theft and assault, and the paper ran
with the story. On June twenty third, with Audrey Cardinas
still listed as missing, Anderson called the paper again. This
time he disguised his voice and said his supervisors had

(32:01):
kidnapped Audrey Cardinas, and he provided the paper with the
supervisor's home addresses. Tell us what happens as a result of.

Speaker 3 (32:10):
This, Well, I think in probably most towns, or most
television or newspapers, there's somebody who calls quite a bit
that has a crazy story. And that was Dale Anderson
with the Belleville Paper. He'd called them numerous times before.
He'd obviously been fired from these three workers with the
Department of Aid. And he's calling the newspaper accusing him

(32:33):
of theft first, then assault, and now basically calling saying theylled,
they kidnapped and killed Audrey. It got more bizarre and
bizarre and bizarre. When she died. There was a memorial service,
and standing up there right by the police officers, was
Dale Anderson. He'd been arrested for impersonating police officers. He'd

(32:54):
been fired from that job earlier. And right before WYKEI
was sent there was another murder that happened in town.
There was a pregnant woman named Jolaine Landman. Her and
her three year old son, Kenneth, were stabbed to death
in their home. And that was happening right with the
Cardenas story, So you had two big things happening at

(33:17):
the same time. And then there's a handwritten note found
at the scene that says both Layman and Cardenas were
murdered by Dale Anderson's three supervisors, the same thing Anderson
had said to the newspaper. And now you had a
crazy story going on. This was almost going back to

(33:39):
like the first story we talked about with the Cherco testimony.
It's like, where does this stuff come from? Which story
is true? But the newspaper and the media could not
ignore it. You've got a second homicide scene in a
small town with a note saying that the killer is
the same person on both and it's these three people

(33:59):
at the Apartment of Public Aid. I mean, what could
really be more ridiculous. But now police knew they had
to start going back and talking to Dale Anderson because
he he'd made the phone calls, he made the accusations,
and he obviously wrote the letter and left it at
the house. And how's he getting into the house?

Speaker 2 (34:19):
He said. Police also find numerous briefcases filled with knives, rope,
surgical gloves, and blunt instruments. Found multiple weapons and ammunition.

Speaker 3 (34:32):
Yeah, he he was just a strange duck in that neighborhood.
And when police finally went to his house and walked
him out in handcuffs, the neighborhood people were out there
watching and they all start clapping. It was like good riddance,
you know. Like I said, every newspaper might get some calls,
every neighborhood might have a guy. Dale Anderson was the

(34:55):
guy in Belleville, but that doesn't that doesn't mean he
killed anybody, But it doesn't mean he didn't know what
was going on either. And as that story evolves, it
takes even more twists in turns.

Speaker 2 (35:12):
Yes, he forces a fourteen year old to write him
a letter saying he was there when Audrey was interviewed
when he was interviewed by Audrey for the newspaper. And
then of course that story falls apardon and the fourteen
year old denies it. So there there's numerous stories that

(35:35):
work out to be false via Dale Anderson coming from
Dale Anderson.

Speaker 3 (35:41):
Well, then then when he is charged and he has
to go to court, Unlike Whitekey, who wouldn't testify, boy Anderson,
of course he couldn't wait to talk, and he says
he met Audrey Cardenis twice before she disappeared, and then
he says he also met Rodney Waitkey. And now the

(36:01):
jury is like they've been in this court case now
for a month. They didn't know what to do. I mean,
what are we talking about here? Well, they found Anderson
guilty eleven to one. They voted for a death penalty
for him, but the single one means you're not going
to get a death penalty. But then later on the
appellate court gets involved. They see Anderson's found guilty, woide

(36:24):
Key's found guilty. You got two people found guilty here
for the same murder. Yes, so they throw off they
throw out the white Key conviction. They get him a
new trial. A mistrials declared they're going to try it
again for a third time. Again. The state had no
physical evidence with Woidkey, but now they also had new

(36:48):
DNA evidence coming in that may have tied Witkey to
Cardenas it was really a mess between two possible suspects.
Thus the title was it Rotten near Dale.

Speaker 2 (37:01):
One more fascinating twist to make of this. You say
that Audrey Cardenis never knew her real father, but her
real father was found his name is Orge Jorgae Cardenas
in Mexico. So tell us about this finding the ID

(37:23):
of her father in Dale Anderson's safe.

Speaker 3 (37:27):
Yeah, well, she finally tracked down her father, she had
his ID card and her possessions. Well, she had the
ID card at some point, but it winds up in
Dale Anderson's safe. So Dale Anderson as Audrey Cardenis's father's
ID at home and is safe. Who keeps such a thing?

(37:51):
How would he have got it? You know, it just
didn't make any sense. The father said he didn't even
know it was missing. He barely remembered Audrey. He said
he'd never met Dale Anderson, He'd never been to Belleville.
How does he get in this safe? The Dale Anderson
thing was just again, the guy was just hard to explain.

(38:16):
But he was that guy that had his finger and
everything going on in town. He had a bridge to
burn with the three supervisors who fired him, and he
somehow got his nose stuck right in the middle of
the biggest homicide case the city had seen in years.
And then he's arrested for his own homicide case days later.

(38:38):
Hard to believe.

Speaker 2 (38:39):
Incredible. Let's use this as an opportunity to stop to
hear these messages. Now, let's talk about the one case
that doesn't end up cold, and that is one you
title one thought, and this is Harold Meyer and the
Nash Supermarkets in North Saint Louis. And there's a phone

(39:04):
call to the police at eleven fifteen, and this is
Harold Meyer inside National Supermarkets. Take us to that bank
at eleven fifteen, and that phone call and Harold Meyer
trying to get the attention of nine to one one
operators while he's in that bank, tell us what's happening.

Speaker 3 (39:29):
Really an unbelievable, heartwarming, but devastating story, maybe the biggest
news story Saint Louis had ever had up until that time.
You know, now we see a mass shooting in the
public and it's like we haven't had one for a week.
But back in the eighties they weren't so common, and
this one was the first really big one in Saint Louis.

(39:50):
It was Labor Day weekend on a Friday night. The
National Supermarket was closing at ten o'clock and seven managers
stayed to help get the proceeds in for the day
and get the store ready to clean up and open.
Up the next morning. They'd stay for about an hour.
Well in that time, between ten and eleven, as the
store is supposedly locked and they're cleaning up, a couple

(40:13):
of bad guys got in and they took the seven
employees and lined them up on the floor, made them
lay down, and then shot them all on the back
of the head. And to make sure they got the
job done, they came back and shot them all on
the back of the head a second time. And then

(40:34):
Harold Meyer, one of the seven, realized, remarkably he was
still alive. He was still alive. Everybody around him is dead,
and he is alive. He crawled to a telephone and
he dialed nine to one one. He had to be
quiet because he didn't know if the murderers were still
in the store. He wasn't sure, so he's calling nine

(40:57):
to one one. A woman answers the phone for the
police department, and Harold says, She says, you know, what's
your name? What's your emergency? He goes and he's whispering,
my name's Harold Meyer. I'm calling from the National Grocery
Supermarket on Natural Bridge. I've been shot multiple times. All
of our other employees have been shot. I think people

(41:18):
are dead. Please send help, And the woman on the
other end of the nine one one says, I can't
understand you. Can you speak louder? And Harold says, I
can't speak louder. There might still be in the store.
I've been shot. I can barely breathe. I'm dying. Everybody's
been shot. They might be dead. Send help, please to
the store on Natural Bridge Road, and the nine one

(41:42):
one caller says, I'm sorry, sir, I can't understand you.
I have other calls to take. Call back when you
can speak louder, and the nine to one on one
collar hung up. Harold Moore or Harold Meyer just you know,
he could not believe it. He didn't know what to
do next. He thinks he's dying. His friends are dead,

(42:02):
He's not sure if the bad guys are in the store.
He makes another call back again, and this time the
nine to one one operator just hangs up on him. Well,
he doesn't even talk to him, and now he doesn't
know what to do, so he thinks he's he thinks
he's dying. He calls his wife and he says, I've

(42:23):
been shot. I might be okay, if not, I love you,
can you try to call nine to one one and
tell him to get an ambulance here as soon as possible.
And she did, but even that didn't work because she
calls nine to one one and she tells him to
send the ambulance to the National Grocery store in Bridgeton,

(42:50):
and they do, but there's two stores there, and they
sent the ambulances to the wrong store, and when they
got to the wrong store, they saw that it was
closed and quiet for the night. So they figured, again,
multiple calls about this, the store is closed. They just
chalked it up to prank phone calls.

Speaker 2 (43:08):
Wow, it's very interesting just to go back a second,
because again he feels like he's dying. You were able
to speak to him, and he spoke of the shots
that were fired into his friend's bodies, their heads right
beside him, and he said, miraculously, he just slightly turned

(43:30):
his head so that the bullet didn't hit his head
but hit his hand. And he said, the thing that
he knew instinctively to do the only thing to do
was to play dead. And then he said he heard
eight shots. So he said, oh, they've ran out of AMMO.
So he looked. He was able to see. He saw
the gunmen go into the security guard's pocket and get

(43:53):
more bullets, reload and then come back to shoot him again,
realizing he's going to get shot again, and is shot
three more times and again remains conscious incredibly enough to
make that phone call. So back to him dying in
this National supermarket. Finally police do arrive while actually people

(44:19):
that are still in the building alert people realize hear
the shots, see the gunmen. There's three people that are
in the building and night supervisor they're working overnight, and
so that leads to the police finally being alerted to
the real actual National Supermarket that's involved, and police arrive.

Speaker 3 (44:44):
Yeah, I mean you think about Harold, you know, surviving
the first shot and then knowing there's a second one.
As you mentioned Dan, what that must have been like
for him. But as the police got there, you know,
it was in finally got to the right store and
they do see all the bodies and they bring in
the homicide people who to this day they have told

(45:07):
me it's the worst they've ever seen in Saint Louis.
And an investigation that was gonna take a long time,
and you had a person and Harold who was still alive.
You had an eyewitness to the massacre, so there's your
lead for the homicide case. But you know, just like

(45:32):
you know, remember in the Dead End with Vicky Webb
and the I seventy case, we're shooing into hiding, you know, Harold. Now,
Harold now knows boy words out that there's somebody alive,
and he's worried that. You know, he's not looking to
be out front of the public either, because you know,
it's it's like that scene in The Godfather when Michael's

(45:53):
guarding the hospital. You know, the bad guys are going
to come and get you at some point, and Harold
was fearful that they maybe coming after him again.

Speaker 2 (46:03):
There was a person that was shot, Richard Forston, that
had seen something just before these gunmen entered the supermarket,
and that the David Spahn was escorting again in a very
tragic story, this young person named Michael nickname Mickey, was
allowed by Harold understandably to go to this party that

(46:26):
he was invited to, so he left the building with
David Spahn. David spawn was asked to escort him to
his car and they were confronted outside by the gunman.
Richard Forston saw those people from afar. It seemed like
it looked like somebody pulled the gun from their back
and approached David. So also the police had get to

(46:52):
speak to Richard Forston as well as awaiting to get
a really good description came from Harold Meyers.

Speaker 3 (47:00):
Yeah, and Richard Forston would later die of his injuries,
not right away but down the line, but he was
a second person who survived it miraculously. Shows you the
skill of the shooters. Shooting guys point blank in the
head twice, wasn't that great. But yeah, Mickey wanted to
get off, and Spawn helped walk him out and Forest

(47:22):
and watch that, and he saw, you know, he saw
what he said was a man wearing a shirt approach
Spawn and pulls the gun, talks Spawn into coming over.
But Forston didn't think it was bad guys coming in.
He thought it was one of the workers from the
overnight cleaning crew that had to come in once they

(47:43):
once the managers left, that needed to maybe needed Spawn
for something to help him get in, or the needed
something to help them clean up. So Forreston didn't think
twice about it at that time.

Speaker 2 (47:53):
You right of the police car surrounding the store, hundreds
of onlookers, and the media was there, of course, and
so were you. And someone told you right there that
they saw an arrival of someone and they said, oh,
the case is about to be closed, and they said,
why is that and you said, well, it's Joseph Burgoon.

(48:14):
So you introduce again, Joseph Burgoon.

Speaker 3 (48:19):
Yeah, that was funny. That was actually at a different
homicide scene the first time I'd met Joe. It was
a nighttime winter, rainy, misty, freezing cold. I had an
umbrella and we're out there for half an hour at
a homicide scene, and it's like, man, hurry it up again.
You know, nothing's going to happen till we get information.
We're not going to get information till the homicide detective,

(48:42):
the main guy, the commander, comes and looks it over,
because only that person could talk to the media. And
I'm with a veteran reporter from the newspaper, a much
older guy, and then we see this old Plymouth car
pull up, and the other reporter says to me, Okay,
this case is about to be closed. And I knew
nothing about the old car, and I said, why is that?
And he said, Joe Bragoon is here, That's all they

(49:05):
need on this one. And sure enough I look and
getting out of that plymouth in the rain with his
trench coat and his umbrella was Joe Burragoon. And that
was the first time we met. Joe became was the
lead homicide detective for the city of Saint Louis for
forty years. Unbelievable. And when you consider Saint Louis has

(49:28):
a couple one hundred homicides a year, you multiply that
times forty. Boy, Dan, I'm bad at algebra, but I
think it's like ten thousand or so homicides, and Joe
Bragoon's got his finger on most of them. And this
is the one he says was the worst he'd ever covered.
This is the one he said he wanted to solve

(49:49):
as much as any other. And the story here between
him teaming up with Harold Meyer to solve this case
is I just think it's fascinating for people who want
to get the book and do nothing else but record
to the end. I wouldn't have a problem with that.
You're missing twenty five good cold cases. But this thought

(50:10):
case is really just heartwarming, heartbreaking, but fascinating.

Speaker 2 (50:16):
You called Joe Borgoon or he has been called the
Blue Knight and the godfather of homicide, and you say,
as you're right, he's presided over thousands of homicide cases
in the St. Louis area. Back to Burgoon, he speaks
to Harold, as I mentioned, he gives him a full description,

(50:37):
a very detailed description of the first gunman that he saw.
He said he was a black male, mid twenties, under
six foot, one hundred and seventy five pounds. But he said,
I'd be able to recognize absolutely his voice. I'll never
forget his voice.

Speaker 3 (50:55):
Yeah, And you know at that point in time, it
all happens so quickly with Harold and they're on the
floor and the suspect is a twenty year old black guy.
I mean, it's difficult to narrow that down in a
large city, and it's just such a generic description that

(51:17):
was never going to fly. But then Harold had the caveat.
I'm not sure about the face I'm laying down, but
I'll never ever ever forget that voice. And when they
had to bring in suspects for a police lineup and
they would ask Carol to identify, he didn't want to
make a mistake. He didn't want to charge somebody with

(51:37):
murder and a possible death punt unless he was certain.
And he would pause on those lineups and he would
tell Joe, Joe, I'm not sure about the face. If
I could hear them speak, if I could hear them speak,
I'll find your guy.

Speaker 2 (51:54):
So they they have a police informant comes forward as
nineteen year old Ricky Williams, and he names three people,
including his brother and his cousin. But again just very
much like all of these stories, or many of these stories,
his story drastically changes, and there's four interviews. But they

(52:14):
round up those suspects, and like you alluded to, they
take these people to Harold to see if he can
recognize any of them, and he says absolutely not.

Speaker 3 (52:25):
But the police were still going forward. They were under
incredible intense media and public pressure to solve this case.
The city seemed nothing like it. They were looking for suspects,
and Ricky Williams was a police informant for them. They'd
known him, they'd dealt with him, he'd helped them before.
But now you're bringing him four guys. They're going forward.

(52:48):
They're going to charge him with murder, and Joe Burgoon
comes in to see Harold and shows him the pictures,
and Harold's like, I don't know again if I could
hear the voice, but he goes Joe, that does not
look like them. That does not look like them at all.
So Harold's balking. The state's Attorney's office is going for

(53:12):
murder one on these four guys, which could be the
death penalty, and the city is relieved to have suspects
in a case. They're giving the police some credit for
an investigation. It's taken months, but we've got the bad
guys here and we're going forward for murder charges. And
in the meantime, Harold Moore is telling Joe Bragoon, I

(53:34):
don't think so, Joe, I don't think.

Speaker 2 (53:37):
So, And Bragoon wants to believe Harold Meyer, doesn't he.

Speaker 3 (53:45):
Yes. In fact, the story that the police were laying
out as to what happened inside the store. Police were
saying how they'd rushed in to kill the killers, and
Burgoon says, Joe, that's not what happened. That's not the
way it went down. So Bragoon's now going to the

(54:06):
state's Attorney's office and his bosses, and he's telling them, hey,
this is not what Harold said. Well, the police had
their case and they didn't want it sidetracked, but Harold
Myers stood strong. Harold Myers's belief was those were not
the killers. Well, now police kept working at a little bit,

(54:29):
and as you mentioned, Dan Ricky Williams's story kept changing,
and now police started having cracks in their cases. And
before you know it, they're going to have to drop
the chargers against the four.

Speaker 2 (54:44):
You're right that everyone's disappointed. But then you write, then
fate arrived November eighth in the neighboring Saint Louis County
Police where they were conducting a traffic a routine traffic
stop and in nearby Brentwood when a blue nineteen seventy
two Ford sped by at a high rate of speed.

(55:06):
Police pulled this guy over, asked him for his registration,
said it was in his car. They asked him to
open up the trunk, and inside the trunk they found
a gun. What's the significance of this gun, Well.

Speaker 3 (55:18):
They had to track it, and as they did track it,
they found it was a spawn's gun. The security guard
at the store, right, and it's like this gun was
used to kill people. Remember, the second round of firing
came from when they stole the security guard's gun when
their own gun ran out of bullets. So the bad

(55:39):
guys go into the store to shoot people, but don't
bring enough guns and bullets. Dumb they stealed the security
guard's gun after they've shot him and sprayed the people
again with his bullets. But then the gun winds up
in the trunk of someone's car. Are they the killer, well,

(56:01):
they say they're not. Well where'd you get the gun?
Because wherever you got the gun, maybe that's the killer.
And of course it turns out now that everybody's got
a cousin and everybody's got a friend, and the gun's
been passed down five times. But eventually police are tracing
this gun or at least getting names of some people

(56:23):
in the process who handled this gun.

Speaker 2 (56:28):
Yes, and they come to a name. This Jimmy Kennedy
gives them the name of Donnie Blankenship, so police investigate
and question him. What do they find.

Speaker 3 (56:40):
Well, the incredible story here is again we talk about
dumb criminals. They stole money from the store that night,
although not that much dollsand is not an incredible amount.
But they also took one other stupid thing, and again,
this was Labor Day. They took a bus pass, one
individual ticket, a bus pass for free bus rides for

(57:04):
one week in September after Labor Day. A bus ticket
that was good for one week in September after Labor Day.
A bus ticket that might have cost five bucks.

Speaker 2 (57:16):
I don't know.

Speaker 3 (57:16):
Yeah, So Joe Burgoon knocking on every door of every suspect,
getting search warrants wherever he can, gets a search warrant
for Donnie Blankenship's home, and Burgoon goes there and knocks
on the door, and Blankenship's mother is there, and he

(57:39):
wants to see if Donnie's there, who he wasn't, but
he wanted to get inside. He had a search warrant
to get inside the house. And Burgoon goes inside the
house and it's just normal things in there. There was
nothing that would help the case. And then as Joe's
getting ready to leave, he looks over and what does

(57:59):
he see on Donnie Blankenship's little table in the corner.
He sees a bus ticket. Wow, And Joe at first
things well, that's odd, but Joe's not making the connection
yet it's the missing bus ticket with the date on it.
He just sees a bus ticket. He could have easily

(58:20):
thought it was nothing and walked on by. But Joe
Burgoon doesn't walk on by anything. He takes the bus ticket.
He takes the serial number on the bus ticket. He
calls into the homicide office. They begin tracing the bus
ticket and sure enough, they get the number on the
bus ticket. It was bus ticket number forty three hundred

(58:42):
for the pass. That was the number forty three hundred
that was stolen from the store. This is months after
the homicide. Why is a worthless expired bus ticket sitting
on the killer's desk in his house? Why is the

(59:06):
gun from the dead security guard sitting in the trunk
of a family member. Sometimes they say it's easy to
get away with murder. You're going to make every mistake
in the book. Joe Bragoon's going to track you down. Yeah,
And that stupid five dollars bus pass from the murder

(59:26):
scene that had expired months ago is what's going to
solve this case. That and as soon as Harold Meyer
heard somebody talk and recognize the voice, this case was
going to be thawed.

Speaker 2 (59:43):
Yeah. When they went from the man hunt. Forty eight
hours after that traffic stop, they found him and also
along with his again, would you be eventual cohort Marvin Jennings.
So they found Blankenship and Marvin Jennings together along with
a couple of women when they did track him down.

Speaker 3 (01:00:05):
Yes, And the thought was that Jennings was the ringleader
and that Blankenship was the second man and blending Jennings
was the one doing the bossing, doing most of the shooting,
although Blankenship joined in. Jennings would eventually get a death
penalty and be executed. Blankenship would get a life in

(01:00:29):
prison with the possibility of parole. But you stop and think, Dan,
go back to the car that was stopped for speeding
in the county, not even in the city, but in
the neighboring area. What if the police didn't have a car,
a police rodeblock car sitting up at that exact time,
at that exact place. What if the car wasn't speeding

(01:00:52):
at that exact time. What if? What if? What if
the police officer was busy pulling over a different car earlier,
or was on the phone and missed the cargoing by.
It took that one moment of time for the county
police to have the traffic stop that led to the gun,
that led to the names of the family members, that

(01:01:14):
led the blanket ship, that led to the bus ticket,
that led to him connecting to Marvin Jennings, that led
to Harold Meyer listening to the voice of Jennings. All
those things happened because of that random traffic stop at
that one place in time.

Speaker 2 (01:01:35):
Yes, it's incredible. In this case, thankfully, fate intervened and
this fluke again, fate fluke occurred and these people were
brought to justice, unlike the other twenty five cool cases
that you call frozen. Before I let you go, what

(01:01:56):
are some of the themes that you recognize and wrote
about in these twenty five frozen cases. What is some
of the similar themes running through or problems encountered by
law enforcement that made these cases be frozen.

Speaker 3 (01:02:16):
Yeah, I was looking for cases that all had You know,
you work at a major market TV station for thirty
five years. You're going to cover a lot of bad crimes,
and I've been on the scene for a lot of those.
But you're looking for cases that really tug at your heart.
Like I mentioned, Gina don Brooks being a child. There's

(01:02:36):
another story in the book of Dalton Masarchik, a five
year old little boy who was abducted off his bicycle
in front of his front yard waiting for a church bus,
never to be seen again, found murdered with a hammer.
It just breaks your heart. So you're looking at the
ones that are heartbreaking, or I'm also looking at cases
that are a twist of fate. Like we talked here

(01:02:58):
about the thought case. If the didn't stop that car
that led to all these other avenues opening up, this
doesn't happen. We've had cases of the twist of fate
and those other twenty five stories where a woman's car
breaks down on the highway and she's abducted. What if
that car doesn't break down there. We've had twists of
fate where you know, our realtor is asked to go

(01:03:20):
show a house the next day, and while she's showing
a house, she's murdered. What if it was a different
realtor that might have showed up, or somebody else from
the office instead of the young lady. I think the
wrong place, wrong time, randomness of fate is what interests
me of It's not just a killer looking to go

(01:03:42):
kill a certain person on these evinch Key's eventually going
to succeed. It's like, this could have been me, this
could have been my wife, this could have been my child.
The randomness of horrific news is out there, and in
those twenty five cases, most of them are that type.

(01:04:02):
Are just wow, this is not the normal. Well he
killed her for the money, or he killed her for
a marriage argument, or the bad guy came to robber. No,
this was These are not those. These are stories of
heartbreak and faith.

Speaker 2 (01:04:20):
There's also many cases that police had good suspects or
what looked like good suspects when you or I would
read the details from police reports, and yet no one
had justice served in those cases.

Speaker 3 (01:04:39):
Yeah, well, as you mentioned, and Gina don Brooks, we've
got the suspect and the never ending story. Police had
the suspect, and in Audri Cardenis they had two suspects. Sure,
so you know. And Joe Bragoon, the godfather of homicide.
You listen to him talk about these cases and his

(01:05:00):
relentless pursuit of them, he will often tell you that
it is not what it seems. And he will often
say to you that you go down one road, but
you've got to be prepared to make that U turn
and go down that second road. And I think that's
what we see in a lot of these cases, that
what looks to be obvious originally is not the way

(01:05:23):
it appears at the end.

Speaker 2 (01:05:26):
Absolutely, I want to thank you so much for coming
on and talking about your new book twenty five Frozen
One Thowd Murder and Mayhem in the Midwest. For those
people that might want to find out more about this
book and your other work, could you tell us about
a website or any social media you do?

Speaker 3 (01:05:45):
Sure well on the social media, Dan, I'm pushing seventy
years old. I'm just afraid that that world has passed
me by. My daughter in law has put me on TikTok. Now,
I have no idea what it is. I could not
find it, but I guess somebody went to TikTok and
searched my name. Maybe it's up there. But I'm just
too old to start with the social media. I understand

(01:06:09):
it affects the sales. I've explained and apologized that to
my publisher. You know, when I first started looking to
publish the I seventy serial Killer book and I sent
information out the publishers. There'd be a form to fill out,
and the first thing that would say is how old
are you? Well, I'm pushing seventy. They're not that interested
in the first time writer. You have no name recognition.

(01:06:30):
But the second thing is tell us about your social
media profile. Well, now I'm pushing seventy and I have none.
So even getting my foot in the door was pretty much,
very very difficult for me. Luckily, I got my foot
in the door and the first book was a success,
so you know, I'm hoping it builds from there. My

(01:06:51):
goal really isn't selling books. I think that's great. The
publisher wants to sell books. We can all make money.
I can get my eighteen cents or whatever. I don't care.
My real goal is like I'm a seventy case or
I'm the twenty five frozen. Some day, somewhere, somehow, somebody
reads this and it triggers a memory in their mind

(01:07:11):
and they pick up the phone and make a phone
call and one of these cases get solved. That would
be the thrill of my life. If I had something
to do with that, much more than selling any book.

Speaker 2 (01:07:25):
Well, it could happen it has happened before. I want
to thank you so much, Bob Zeiphers for twenty five
frozen one Thowd murder in Mayhem in the Midwest. Thank
you very much for this interview, and you have a
great evening and good night.

Speaker 3 (01:07:40):
Thank you. Dan