EMPIRE CITY UNDER SIEGE—Craig McGuire

Empire City Under Siege shares true stories of an FBI Special Agent spanning three tumultuous decades in New York City, beginning in the gritty 1970s when law enforcement refused to let their city be consumed by corruption and violence. Starting as an undercover operative investigating Mafia hijackers in Red Hook, Anthony John Nelson offers a gripping insider’s look at the bureau’s largest field office during one of its most transformative eras.
From international manhunts, celebrity kidnappings, and late-night surveillance of Mafia hotspots with NYPD legend Kenneth “Kenny” McCabe, Nelson recounts his involvement in some of the most impactful and infamous cases of the pre-Internet age—pulling back the curtain on the dangers, strategies, and sacrifices behind the headlines.
Featuring first-hand accounts from agents, officers, and prosecutors, this book honors the courage and commitment of all those like Anthony John Nelson who fought to restore order, protect the innocent, and reclaim a city once on the brink. EMPIRE CITY UNDER SIEGE Three Decades of New York FBI Field Office Manhunts, Murders, and Mafia Wars—Craig McGuire

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:07):
You are now listening to True Murder. The most shocking
killers in true crime history and the authors that have
written about them Geesy Bundy, Dahmer, The Nightstalker DTK. Every
week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and
infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with your host,

(00:30):
journalist and author Dan Zufanski, It Isning Empire.

Speaker 2 (00:41):
City under Siege shares true stories of an FBI special
agent spanning three tumultuous decades in New York City, beginning
in the gritty nineteen seventies, when law enforcement refused to
let their city be consumed by corruption and violence. Starting
as an undercover operative investigating mafia hijackers in RedHook, Anthony

(01:07):
John Nelson offers a gripping insider's look at the Bureau's
largest field office during one of its most transformative eras
from international manhunts, celebrity kidnappings, and late night surveillance of
mafia hotspots. With NYPD legend Kenneth Kenny McCabe, Nelson recounts

(01:28):
his involvement in some of the most impactful and infamous
cases of the pre Internet age, pulling back the curtain
on the dangers strategies and sacrifices behind the headlines. Featuring
first hand accounts from agents, officers, and prosecutors. This book

(01:49):
honors the courage and commitment of all those like Anthony
John Nelson who fought to restore order, protect the innocent,
and reclaim the city One Dad on the Brink. The
book that we're featuring this evening is Empire City Under
Siege three decades of New York FBI Field Office manhunts,

(02:11):
murders and mafia Wars with my special guest author Craig McGuire.
Welcome to the program and thank you very much for
this interview. Craig McGuire.

Speaker 3 (02:25):
Nice to meet you, Dan really appreciate big fan of
the show and appreciate the opportunity to come on.

Speaker 2 (02:30):
Thank you so much right away. In the author's note
you talk about real heroes and that real heroes never
call themselves. That tell us a little bit about your
first meeting with Anthony John Nelson, the purpose for the meeting,
and NYPD Detective Tommy Dads.

Speaker 3 (02:52):
Great jumping off point. This is a continuation of a
journey as a true crime author I had previously worked
on on a project with retired detective Thomas DAIDs from Brooklyn.
Tommy pulled me in and asked if I was interested
in you know, we're perhaps working on a project with
Carmine IMBRIALI former enforcer for the Columbo crime family who

(03:16):
testified and was instrumental in helping build many of the
cases following the aftermath of the Third Columbo War. So,
following publication of that book about a year later, I
keep in touch with Tommy. He lives out here in
New Jersey with me. He had another colleague in law
enforcement who was interested in doing a sort of a memoir.

(03:38):
Pursued that and actually I met with with this gentleman
and Anthony Nelson was along. We met in a coffee
shop out in New Jersey, and Anthony was just supportive.
He just wanted to help his friend and offer any
assistance he can. Unfortunately, that project fell apart, and I

(03:59):
went I've visited Anthony at his home in New Jersey,
which his lovely wife Cindy, for breakfast on his Sunday morning,
just to see if there's anything we can do to
salvage salvage of this project, which we could not. And
he had this pile next to the table of all
these clippings, and he started to share the clippings with
me about, you know, a lot of these cases that

(04:20):
he had, and he really emphasizes throughout the project that
he had worked on with other members of law enforcement,
not just at his time in the FBI, but also
in the Brooklyn later in the Brooklyn District Attorney's office
as an investigator. And one thing common theme that came
to me as I interviewed many members of law enforcement

(04:41):
for this for this work was a bit of how
they're a bit desensitized or not really aware of the
creative and the compelling value of some of these stories.
So he's very nonchalantly and unassuming sharing these really compelling
a newspaper clippings from the from the Daily News, some

(05:02):
by famed UH crime reporter Jerry Capeachi, who I've always
been a huge fan of him from his Ganglan column.
And I was just blown away. And I and I
and I'm telling Anthony there's a book here. Would you
be interested in doing a book? And he really wasn't.
He's he's not that kind of person. He's he's very
like quintessential g man, buttoned up, very respectful, very authoritative.

(05:28):
You know, I know, Cindy was was very was interested
in the idea. We were eventually able to convince him
to do it, but really he had some ground rules,
like he really wanted to make sure this was we
would we were focusing on law enforcement. I like the
general overall theme of the book is, even though it's
five hundred pages of like some really compelling dozens of cases,

(05:51):
really high profile cases that I grew up reading about,
but also these overarching themes of law enforcement and the
evolution of the FBI in law enforcement in the second
half of the twentieth century when there was so much
dramatic change and turmoil and challenges, and then also like
now where you have this sort of this undertone disparaging

(06:16):
law enforcement and not really giving it and members of
law enforcement the recognition they do as they are, you know,
modern day heroes. Just to let you know, Dan, the
working title of this book was in the Company of Courage, right,
So that gives you some sense of where Aunt Anthony's

(06:36):
emphasis was. And you know, I think it was just
a privilege for me to try to tell these stories
as best as I could.

Speaker 2 (06:45):
You're right that he was born in nineteen forty nine
in Brooklyn. The family started off in red Hook, but
then we're moved to fourth and seventh Avenue, Fourth Street
and seventh Avenue to Park Slope. Tell us about Anthony
John Nelson growing up, his family, Catherine and Edward Nelson,

(07:05):
and what life was actually like at that time in
that area of Brooklyn.

Speaker 3 (07:11):
Now this is near and dear to me. You know,
I cut my teeth as a beat report order for
the Bay News in southern Brooklyn. You know, most of
my all of my books are related to different aspects
of Brooklyn. I grew up in benson Hurst, bath Beach. Also,
my children were born in Brooklyn. My three sons met

(07:31):
my wife in Brooklyn, and I love you. Anthony was
born in a pretty interesting, almost really cinematic period time
and setting. When you think of red Hook, you think
of on the Waterfront, which was really that's the period.
This is like like ten years before. This is when
al Capone was a bouncer in the Saloons. This is,

(07:54):
you know, last exits of Brooklyn period red Hook. Anthony
comes from his mother's side was Italian, so he grew
he grew up in a very uh strong Italian Catholic household,
you know, really his father was military, so really instilled
values in him.

Speaker 1 (08:13):
Uh.

Speaker 3 (08:14):
And eventually like really strong family life. And then eventually
the family relocated, did better and moved to neighboring Park Slope.
And this was you know Brooklyn Brownstone stoop, you know,
stick bowl culture, you know, just growing up. Also very
early on, uh, Anthony, while many of his many of

(08:35):
his his peers were really gravity, we're admiring the local gangsters.
And now this is you know, when crazy Joe Gallo
was active as a as a captain in the Gambino
family with that Colombo War. So that gives you that
kind of time period, kind of kind of effect and
and and where the mafia organized crime was really rising

(08:57):
and coming into into full prominence. But at the same time,
remember this was pre nine to eleven.

Speaker 1 (09:03):
Uh.

Speaker 3 (09:03):
I when I say nine to eleven, I mean the
emergency response system. So in order to if if there
was an emergency, you had to call the switchboard, you know,
you had to call the hospital directly. You know, you
had to call the fire apartment directly. So there had
to be a heavy beat presence for police officers. So
and and it was it was different than it was

(09:24):
they were integral into the always ever present, you know,
integral in the community. And really, uh, Anthony grew to
admire the work that they did. Again you know, his
his upbringing, his character, so they there there were several
really compelling episodes in his childhood that we cover in

(09:46):
the book, including you know, the first time he there
was a drug overdose of you know, one of his peers,
and the police officers did a the beat cups did
a really sincere effort to save him. They didn't just
closs it over tag and bag and you know, they
really tried to say that and this was this really
resonated with the with the young Anthony. Around the same time,

(10:08):
interestingly enough, you know, and we covered this in the book,
you had the rise of the FBI. The FBI created
in the in the early twentieth century really is the
bord of in Bureau of Investigation. Uh. And it was
in really direct response to to macro trends, you know,
really taking over the country. You had massive trends in urbanization, immigration.

(10:31):
Organized crime really was not organized prior to prohibition, but
prohibibition really prompted this need for a multi jurisdictional entity
that was able to bring to bear resources and expertise
and to constantly, you know, be able to evolve alongside
these trends. So you have and and then also with

(10:53):
like interestingly enough, in pop culture, you have this rise
of the g man. Like uh Hoover was very Jed
go Hoover was very astute in understanding the power of
the media and actually served as a consultant the FBI.
Served as a consultant in a lot of these early
FBI themed movies and television shows, and then that just

(11:16):
proliferated over the years. But this is really at the
time when that when the G man was like front
and center. Anthony happened to see a documentary style show
on television about you know, opportunities and the FBI, and
he was was very attracted to that, especially when it
sort of challenged him, telling him this is the hardest job,

(11:38):
to hardest career to achieve. So he wrote a letter
to j. Go Hoover directly and he received a response back.
You know, nowadays he he suspects that that may have
been maybe a form letter with a stamp, but it
really set him out on his path.

Speaker 2 (11:58):
You say that he entered duty with the FBI January
sixth nineteen sixty nine, and then soon after or by
seventy two, he was an electronics technician and did that
for the next four years, and then he joined the
Army and National Garden in sixty nine at the same time,
and you write that he had to be had to

(12:18):
wait till he was twenty three to be in the
FBI officially.

Speaker 3 (12:22):
Yes, if anything, Anthony is a go getter, and I
find that to be, you know, a kind of a
common theme many of these law enforcement personalities that I've
interviewed like they are today, as there was back then.
There were very high standards and qualifications in order to
even be considered. You know, professional service was important. Now,

(12:43):
remember a lot of the folks who applied to the
FBI already have successful careers and stints in other walks
of life, in other career paths. So it's common to
see like attorneys, former military CPAs. So really it's really
important for you to have, you know, to bring something

(13:06):
to the table. Now what Anthony did and he was
able to get a series of support roles at the FBI,
culminating in being the technical role to assist on Now
this is very early, you know, technology archaic, but he
always had. He was really strong on this front. So

(13:28):
he was able to parlay that into a role as
the technical support and that helped power us satisfy some
of those credentials.

Speaker 2 (13:40):
He talked that that he had different roles with the
FBI right away, and there was different divisions of the FBI,
but there was Nelson responded August ninth, nineteen seventy five
to emgor M. Broffman, head of Seagrams, a titan of
the business world. You're right, and his son, Samuel Bronfman

(14:02):
the second was kidnapped and it was a ransom note
for a four point six million, and Anthony Nelson enters
the case.

Speaker 3 (14:13):
Yeah, talk about trial by fire. So this actually you're correct, Dan,
and this like predates him being sworn in, heading to
Quantico and then ultimately being assigned to the New York office.
So actually in that support capacity he got the call.
And Samuel Broffman the second was actually the son of
billionaire tycoon Edgar Bromfin and this is of Seagum's fame,

(14:37):
you know, much much more name recognition during that era.
Anthony took the call, went on site, and he had
no idea of knowing that for the next week or
so he would be sequestered at the family's Manhattan Fifth
Avenue penthouse. So Anthony was in a communications capacity, so
he was responsible for monitoring the calls, collecting communications, reporting

(15:03):
to the special agents in this really you know, high
stakes hostage crisis. And again this is one of the
one of the crimes where the FBI has jurisdiction because
it can bring to bear special techniques and expertise when
really time is of the essence. And it's interesting, you know,

(15:24):
not to share too much, but you know, Anthony has
a great story about you know, he's on the balcony
at the Manhattan at this Fifth Avenue penhouse, and then
all of a sudden, helicopters swoop in and it's the media,
you know, to take a pictures. And the next days
he's in a big spread in the daily news. And
you know, the Brafms family, the Brofrim family is you know,

(15:47):
they remarket how calm he looks, you know, in that
and like hen looked like a member of the family.
You know, the situation is getting dire. The families destroyed.
A ransom note arrives, you know, claim that Samuel's b
is actually buried alive, only has ten days of oxygen left,
and they warned if the money doesn't isn't delivered, not

(16:07):
only would you know, the sun perish, but they'd also
assassinate Edgar Broffin with cinanid lace bullets. And keep in
mind that that dollar amount now four point six million
dollars does not seem that much, but in nineteen early
nineteen seventies dollars, that was the largest ever ransom ever recorded.

(16:29):
There's also another interesting component to this. So the families
has resources, they're desperate, they're concerned, so they actually they
call Uri Galer and you know, for folks a little
bit longer in the tooth like myself, can remember this
famed illusionist who you'd see on television. He was the
bending spoons guy. And Anthony actually mentions that on site,

(16:53):
Ury Gali does bend an FBI key and he and
he's really not sure how he did that. For assisting
in the investigation, you know, the best Ury could do
was he said, you know, the victims, you know, now
something associated with the letter B. Actually the sun was

(17:13):
rescued in Brooklyn, but you know that was more of
that had to be more of a guess. The FBI
agent Anthony shares the information from the kidnappers. FBI agents
do go to make the payoffs, so they make the drop,
but they don't arrest the kidnappers because they don't want to,
you know, jeopardize the life of the victim. Eventually, but

(17:36):
they are able to track him down through the license plates.
And again this is a remember this is nineteen seventy,
This is not the easiest thing to do to bring
to pair even this you know, rudimentary level of technology.
Eventually they were able to apprehend the suspects from this episode.
And then remember this is very early, early on in
Anthony's career. He did get the satisfaction. They did rescue

(17:59):
the the family, and there's some of the you know,
post crime issues that that went on during the during
the court proceedings that readers would appreciate, But the big
lesson that Anthony took out he had a level of satisfaction.
This need, he says, the need to be needed. And
you know, when you think about that, like we all
kind of have that kind of natural instinct, but to

(18:23):
the level that law enforcement is able, is needed and
is able to deliver is really compelling. And then especially
as and it's stuck with me throughout this journey, when
I speak with members of law enforcement and the lack
of credit, they often get, you know, a lot of
times a recurring theme was, you know, during the heat

(18:46):
of the moment, you know, families are distraught, victims are destraught,
they want answers, and then afterwards they want closure. There's frustration,
and there's a lot of the law enforcement offering bears
the brunt of that far too often. And after you
know there is resolution, you know, or there is an
arrest or something does, they're not thanked, you know, and

(19:08):
even like a sometimes a simple thank you or an
apology for the heat of the moment, you know, there's
for some reason there many people don't feel the need
to express that appreciation. And you know that creates a
small scar, you know that, and that you carry with
you over the years.

Speaker 2 (19:28):
So let's use this as an opportunity to stop to
hear these messages. Now back to Anthony John Nelson. He
is working for the FBI and he's developing informants and
one of the things that he has is this sort
of everyman sort of aspect to him because he grew

(19:50):
up amongst gangsters, and also that he could speak Italian
quite well and so that he could speak with wise
guys and it worked very very well in his role
as undercover officers. You say that he was developing informants
and talk about the one informant that led to some

(20:11):
tips about someone named Roy DeMeo, and Roy DeMeo was
not someone that was on his radar, so also talk
about Roy DeMeo. But also during a meeting later that
same day with Deputy Inspector John Nevians, Nelson was introduced

(20:31):
to Detective Kenneth McCabe. Can you tell us about this
extraordinary day in the life of Anthony John Nelson.

Speaker 3 (20:39):
Yes, a couple of things there, and again I just
really want to be I'm so respectful and mindful to
getting it getting it right. Like Anthony's this came up,
you know, the fact that his fluency in Italian, he's
not at that fluent. He's he's like many of us
who grew up in Brooklyn who can carry conversation, but

(21:00):
he's not necessarily fluent in Italian. I just want to
make sure you know. But again this will leads to
the whole thing. He's very believable, and he has this
sort of mystique about him. He's a serious man, but
he's an approachable man. He's instantly generates sort of respect
and an understanding like he's a serious kind of guy.

(21:22):
When interestingly enough, when he graduated Quantico and received his
first assignment, a lot of his college leagues were like
kind of I wouldn't say dreading, but they were perhaps
not as incentivized to go to the New York office
because I guess because maybe the level of activity and
you know, the challenges. But he was thrilled because he

(21:42):
was going home. So as soon as he gets back
to Brooklyn, one of his first assignments is as an
undercover associated with the Gambique Eno family to operate an
organized crime affiliated warehouse in Red Hooks, so sort of
posing as a stash house where he would get first
writer fusal. So through this he's able to develop you know,

(22:05):
contacts awareness. Now, interestingly enough, there is an an incident.
Now remember he's he's doing that while he's also investigating
other crimes, so he's in an undercovered capacity. So there
is a hijacking. Now this is the golden age of
hijacking where it's just rampant. Now there was a so

(22:27):
he stakes out the scene. It's a tip from the
informant who does mention this this this character Roy Demeyo
Anthy doesn't understand the gravity of that name at this time,
but he does. He goes to stake out the crime scene,
trying to make the arrest. So you have the hijack
product there sitting in a van and he's waiting and

(22:49):
then he and then he notices this detective off to
the side, also scouting it out or passing by, so
who he's seen before, but he doesn't know who he is.
So then he's later on meets with Evans, asks about him,
and he introduces him to Kenny McCabe and what starts
as this amazing almost no really cinematic, years long partnership

(23:14):
and relationship. It's even an understatement to say that Kenny
McCabe is perhaps law enforcement's greatest weapon to dismant to
organize crime in the latter parts of the twentieth century.
Just an amazing asset to law enforcement at a time

(23:34):
when they were still knitting it together, they were still
figuring out you did not This was when they were
finally coming together forming true partnerships. You had Joint Task Force.
Joint Task Force says, you had, you know, the application
of databases, but it was still early. What Kenny McCabe
was a walking, talking encyclopedia of organized crime. You know,

(24:01):
when they do have sentencing hearings, they'll often they would
often demand you have defense attorneys for organized crime figures
facing sentencing. You know, they would insist that due to
due process, you know, you have to bring in whoever
this confidential informant is, reveal him, he has to be
questioned if you're going to apply these these massive sentences

(24:22):
to my client. Amazingly enough, they would be able to
just pull in Kenneth McCabe. To a man, everyone I,
everyone I spoke with, just talks about how Kenny could
recite and from memory, you know, hundreds of organized crime
members and their relationships, their family members, their criminal specialties,

(24:45):
who they were dating, which social clubs they featured with,
just like an endless litany of details. Now he could
he could repeat this, you know, ad nauseum on the
on the witness stand. And there's actually a great story
Kenny McCabe's son, Duke McCabe, who for the last twenty years,

(25:08):
has been pulling together all of his father's materials and
I think he's got lightning in a bottle with that.
I wish him the best. I can't wait to see
what he produces with that now. Kenny Duke was a star,
a basketball star at Saverian High School in bay Ridge, Brooklyn.
So at times when Duke had to go to travel

(25:29):
to play at other schools, you know, his father would come.
And of course his father would cruise by the local
local social clubs, take always had his camera on him,
take pictures, take notes, grab more intel, and Duke would
be along for the ride. So he described how the
first time he saw the inside of a courtroom was

(25:50):
when his father testified during the dramatic Pizza Connection trial trials.
And then also he was at a fatigo hearing when
you had had a defense attorney saying, no, my maya,
my client has no association with this social club or
with these other members of organized client crime. And Kenny's

(26:10):
able to produce the pictures of placing these two criminals together,
of placing the license plate in front of the social club.
It's it's just some remarkable information he was able to recall.
Now you're talking about, you know, he did this across
hundreds of trials. Now, so right away, Anthony and Kenny,

(26:31):
they're both you know, Brooklyn guys grew up sort of
similar family background, similar inclinations. They start what what turns
out to be, you know, a couple of decades of
after hours patrolling, you know, the underworld. That night, you know,
Brooklyn Queen's Anthony had a Plymouth Grand Fury. Now if

(26:56):
you're familiar with that, with that model and especially with
the police kit that you put on it. This it
just screens copmobile. So they were trying to be as
obvious and conspicuous as possible, even to some point where
Anthony would say, we would make sure we parked in
front of the bus stops right right across from all

(27:16):
of these these mafia social clubs. And they were all
having grown up in the area. They were all over
the place, and they were conducting their business out in
the open. So then you had these two lawn one
at the FBI agent, and then you had the NYPD
detective investigated. And then later Kenny McCabe went to the
US District Attorney's office to work there as an investigator

(27:39):
for and just so much rich story and history there.
Now when you think about it, in Anthony's capacity, and
he's the first to bring this up, he helped contribute
and through the network of confidential informants, contribute a lot
of intelligence. Now this is this is the key, the
use of of confidential informants to develop the information to

(28:04):
connect these crimes together, to build the conspiracies. That is
what turned the tide. You know, you had advancements in technology,
and then you also had advancements in the law with
RICO and really understanding how RICO was. It took a
while for them to figure out, you know, how to
apply it. And then also at the same time you

(28:25):
had this not just this cooperation between Anthony and Kenny,
you had the rise of these task force, these test forces.
And that's another theme, Like this is common misperception that
it was it was it was just about rivalries, It
was just about lack of cooperation. And while there was obviously,
I mean, these are high stakes and you have a
lot of personalities. You know, there were some well documented

(28:48):
conflicts and interagency conflicts, but there was also a ton
of collaboration that established that legacy of collaboration that carries
fort to this day.

Speaker 2 (28:59):
Tell us about this collaboration between the two. You say
that with McCabe going to the US Attorney's Office Strike Force,
it allowed both of them to work together in a
more formal basis. So tell us about their progress with
this Roy de mail.

Speaker 3 (29:18):
There was now when when when you think about the
rise of these task force and especially Walter Max Task
Task Force, and then all these major landmark cases like
these are you know, the Commission trial, you know, the
Pizza connection trial, and then all the subsequent the Roy
Demeyo gang that the after after after he was murdered,

(29:41):
you know, bringing to justice that murderous crew responsible for
anywhere from one hundred to two hundred murders. These are
these are sprawling conspiracies that develop over many years and
have many different crimes. The biggest challenge was that the
upper echelons of these organized crime groups who are insulated

(30:02):
from prosecution. But with the introduction to RICO, they were
able to establish, you know, take those crimes and knit
them together, establish the conspiracy in order to bring them
to justice. But in order to do that took a
ton took years and years of work in the trenches
by thousands of members of different law enforcement agencies. So

(30:24):
Anthony was he led the Gambino Squad as eventually he
was elevated to supervisory special Agent. He worked in the
New York office and then also the larger FBI field
offices have these things called ras, their resident agencies, which
they are like sort of mini offices within the field office.

(30:45):
And the one in Brooklyn, Brooklyn, Queens, Anthony was assigned
to that assigned to the Gambino squad. So that covers
a vast array of criminal activity. So you have like
a heavy concentration of hijacking, of gambling, of prostitution. So
Anthony's gathering this intelligence and getting these tips, and he's

(31:06):
they're building cases at the FBI, working with the with
with the Attorneys General. At the same time, he's collaborating
with the very closely with the NYPD as they're building cases.
And again he's the first one to say most of
these I'm not making the arrest, you know, I'm not
doing the interrogation, but I'm working to build the intelligence,
to provide the intelligence to the case agents, to the detectives,

(31:30):
and then also working with the NYPD. He there's this
ex this this really compelling storyline where he shares how
Kenny and and Anthony they used to meet Thursdays at
this this really famous Italian restaurant called Mamatories, really old
school red source joint in and and it was also

(31:53):
frequented by the way Dan with members of organized crime.
So I mean, just picture you have and and this
did happened. You had at one table, you have Roy
de Mayo, who eventually was elevated to be captain of
one of the most vicious Gambino crews, reporting to Nino Gadget.
He's holding court at one table. Then you have some
other wise guys holding court at another table. Then Kenny

(32:16):
and Anthony come walking in. Those guys clear out. But
then you also had like like legends like Frank Pergola,
NYP detective who helped resolve or bring to like at
least seventy nine polled cases that spanned back a decade
before that, you know, Ronnie cadout just so many. So

(32:36):
they would meet regularly in this informal environment and just
you know, trade information, trade intel to help each each
other and their teams and the squads and the folks
they collaborate with in their respective agencies to build cases
and then to help knit them together in the conspiracies
that were eventually proven in court. And honestly, I mean,

(32:58):
I mean obviously dismantle organized crime at the height of
its power.

Speaker 2 (33:03):
Let's use this as an opportunity to stop to hear
these messages. Now, this team of McCabe and Nelson, how
effective are they in dismantling the mafia operations, but even
more so disrupting them and keeping them off guard. Many
of these heads of these organizations did not like people

(33:27):
speaking with Nelson and McCabe, and yet Nelson McCabe had
that knack for being able to speak with these wise
guys at various times.

Speaker 3 (33:38):
You know what that brings to mind a really interesting
inflection point. So, now, very early on, had you had
McCabe and Nelson cruising by, and now they're starting to
become a regular presence, and the starting to be knows
especially they're during this glarian cotmobile with a thirty five
millimeter popping out hanging out of the window, you know,

(34:01):
so it became sort of like a nuisance. And there
was there was one instance where none other than Paul
Castellano outside I believe it was the veterans and Friends Club.
That was the social club on in Bensonhurst. I think
I believe it's Bay eighth or Base seventh and eighty
sixth street. So you know, Paul Castellana comes all to

(34:25):
the car and he says, he says, guys, if if if, if,
if you anytime you want to talk to me, just
come to ponte Vecchio, which is another restaurant in Bay Ridge.
Come to my table at ponte Vecchio. I'll and then
I'll talk to you whatever you need to know. So
that lets let you know. But pretty soon and not
long after that, the edicts went out that you know,

(34:46):
no one is under any circumstances to address talk to
have anything to do with the with these because I
think you had this this this realization that this is dangerous.
But that would that happened. That was that happened in
a very abrupt fashion. So then there was another incident
you had, and it's interesting to bring out dad like
the rise of Roy DeMeo. And then also Kenny McCabe

(35:09):
and Anthony Nelson this sitting outside Veterans and Friends one
night and then they see this like a gathering, so
you know it's more than the regular sort of foot
soldier foot traffic coming in and out of the club,
and it's a going away party for Nino Gadget. So
Nino Gadget. He actually he took over Castellano's crew when

(35:32):
Castellana was elevated by his cousin Carlo Gambino eventually to
lead the family. But no one really knew who Nino was,
Like Nino was old school Bathbeach, kind of under the radar.
So I mean they took the pictures and this was
the first time that there was like sort of a
positive understanding, more of an understanding of who of this

(35:53):
Nino Gadget Nino Gadget, and he was a major player.
So then you also had and royd Mayo was one
of his underlings. So then you also had incidents where
you know, Roy would run over to the he ran
across the street in the middle of traffic, and if
you know the area, you know this is like it's
like almost a highway. The way he caused zip up
and down eighty sixth Street and he's yelling at them

(36:16):
and he's saying, guys, you know you mentioned me in
a case related to a drug trafficker. You know, when
Kenny McKay was testifying at a sentencing here, He's like,
what are you trying to get me killed? And it's
just these kind of like day in the life on
the ground sort of vignettes that I've found really compelling.
And then just there's a whole bunch of stories related

(36:39):
to that.

Speaker 2 (36:41):
You take us to nineteen eighty one and mad Dog
on the loose and special Agent Nelson was sent to
hunt him down. This Joseph mad Dog Sullivan wanted by
New York State from multiple murders, a contract killer estimated
to have killed twenty to thirty people, mostly on behalf
of the Genevesei and Gondino families. So tell us what

(37:05):
Nelson does, How is quick witted and his training get
to be able to find the perpetrator of this mad
Dog Sullivan.

Speaker 3 (37:17):
I love this topic because when as I'm going through this,
you know, and I'm doing my research with Anthony, if
we were just focusing on him and Kenny McCabe and
that amazing partnership and all it yielded, that in and
of itself is just such a dramatic book. The fact
that Anthony was involved with so many of these high

(37:37):
profile crimes. Of course, so many different areas. It just
really it gives you a compelling perspective of just like
what the FBI really does and what it's able to
bring to bear when you have like these hunting down
these wanted criminals mad dogs. Dog Sullivan was a brutal
assassin for organized crime, highly active for many years, suspected

(38:02):
of anywhere from twenty to thirty murders. He also has
the distinction to be the only inmate whoever escaped Attica Prison,
and he did that hiding under a pile of flower
sacks in a delivery truck. And he was eventually he
was paroled in seventy five, and then he picked up
right where he left off and he was actually then
he was freelancing for the Westies. And this was the Westies,

(38:26):
you know, so fantastically profiled by TJ. English. Just another
giant and true crime Dad was the Hell's Kitchen based
Irish Irish mob that was affiliated with the Gambinos under
Roy DeMeo, and he was suspected of several other murders.
So then Anthony was assigned by the FBI. By the
FBI to helped lead the man hunt, and then he

(38:49):
also reached out to his contacts in the FBI, and
he is He's very effusive with his praise of just
some really outstanding and yp detectives partnering up with Anthony
and his FBI agents. So what ensues is like weeks
of canvassing Brooklyn for his last known whereabouts. And you know,

(39:10):
he has one compelling point where he talks about, you know, uh,
surveilling and visiting this uh this, uh this oc hotspot
on Stillwell Avenue and if you know that area, like
dan that is the last exit to Brooklyn. It's just
it's it's really dark. There's all like these car lots

(39:32):
over there, it's the Expressway overhead. You have the lights
of Conyon in the background, and you know, this is
just weeks of Anthony, you know, prowling with all these detectives.
So they flush him out in New York. He goes
up to Rochester. He takes a contract. Sullivan takes a
contract to murdering union official. So so murders the union

(39:53):
official and in the ensuing escape, gets spotted by a
rookie police officer. Sullivan's wounded and shoot out escapes, but
he returns to Rochester a month later to collect on
the contract. And because of all the great work and
all this time that law enforcement put in, you know,
they were able to surface a c I tip and

(40:16):
he at the local FBI on the scene immediately, and
they apprehended him and he eventually died in prison. And
I have to tell you, you know, there's so there's there's
much more detail to this in the book you can see,
but this is just another in another episode. It really
defines like the need for this special level of expertise,

(40:38):
this need to work across jurisdictions, to work across agencies
to really hunt down these vile criminals who continue to
wreck havoc on our society and ultimately bring them to justice.

Speaker 2 (40:56):
Part of Nelson's skill and mccape skill, but especially Nelson's skill,
was to get people to be able to talk. And
so you talk about the Mayo henchman, Frederick de nom
tell us about what happens in this case.

Speaker 3 (41:15):
Yes, so Freddie Denome was henchman for Roy Demeyo and
as things as the murders mounted, Now this was this
was this is a high volume shop. They had a
lounge on Flatlands Avenue, incidentally, not not too far from
Anthony's own home that they developed this technique called called

(41:40):
the Gemini technique. I mean at true crime fans pick
up a copy The Murder Machine, like one of the
best works ever written on organized crime, right, and it
really it goes with great detail there about the Gemini
method where they perfected this the art of luring victims
and then murdering them and then dismembering them and disposing

(42:04):
with the bodies. And this is like this is this
is like wholesale murder, so as the as the bodies mounted.
And and remember like Roy was kind of he was
eventually murdered by members of his own crew. But at
the time even though you had like Paul Castellano wanted him,
wanted him murdered, and they were they were early even
early on, but a lot of folks did not want

(42:25):
to take the contract or because he was surrounded by killers.
And Freddie Denoam was one of them eventually, and and
and also Freddie was I think I believe, yeah he was.
He was. He was caught on tape, you know, you know, threatening,
you know that he was gonna do something and like
threatening Kenny McCabe, you know. So it was like all

(42:47):
the all the while, like all of this is escalating.
There were several arrests and and Walter Max's Task Force
was able to successfully prosecute. Also, you know, Frank Pergola
was uh was able to you know, solve many of
these cold cases and bring a lot of closure to
a lot of families. And Freddie eventually testify. Uh, he

(43:10):
did testify, and he went into witness protection. But while
in witness protection, he did he took his own life.

Speaker 2 (43:19):
You're right that it was somewhat suspicious, but their police
determined that there was no foul play.

Speaker 3 (43:26):
That there was no foul play. And then also Kenny
shared with with Anthony that like there was this auto
asphyxiation that was that was found at the time that
really wasn't publicized for respect for the family. So that
was that was a pretty dramatic point.

Speaker 2 (43:45):
You continue that the partnership with Nelson and McCabe, they
are still in this story visiting all kinds of Brooklyn
social clubs. Both had day jobs, but they continued this
surveillance and again they were very conspicuous rather than inconspicuous.
You say that the walls were closed in on Roy Demel.

Speaker 3 (44:08):
Yes, and keep in mind not only on Roy now
this is these are criminal conspiracies that reached back decades.
So you had this brave, noble war that's being conducted
by multiple members of law enforcement. Now that they're finally
now keep in mind Dan years ago, if a criminal

(44:29):
conducted it perpetrated a crime in Brooklyn, and then he
went and perpetrated a crime in Queens, it was hard
for an investigator to knit those together, you know, So
just being able to establish these relationships and then to
build these cases took a massive amount of effort, as
it took time for technology to catch up. And then

(44:53):
remember like when I inter Frank Perglo, he mentioned like
there were seventy nine cold cases piled up and and
the fact that it was so challenging to to really
link them together to the case. I mean, there were
some instances where the MAFI wants to send a message,
but most of them, you know, they're pretty effective at

(45:13):
at you know, throwing off the scent on many of these.
So it took like the really the resilience of law
enforcement to dig in and to slowly knit these crimes together,
to build to build the cases. At the same time,
it's it's no understatement to say like these these social
clubs were dominant presence in all these communities throughout New York.

(45:36):
Now there was a there was a seminal case where
a police officer was assassinated, a police officer dolls uh,
and this was simply for the fact that his his
wife had previously been managed been married to a Colombo captain.
In the aftermath of of that dreadful crime where where

(45:58):
an active member of law for he was off duty,
but he was targeted and the henchman lay in wait
and murdered him on a Brooklyn street, was just beyond
the pale. So what you saw was in the aftermath
of that, there was like this this outrage and where
multiple multiple agencies were brought to bear to just really

(46:20):
go after and shudder, many of these organized crime locations.
So now having grown up in that era and then
seeing what it is now, it's dramatically different. So it's
just it's just another one of these like sort of
touch points where you see like where law enforcement really

(46:41):
did turn the tide, and it took this collaborative effort,
but it also took a lot of hard work for
the brave men and women of law enforcement.

Speaker 2 (46:51):
Yeah, you talk about the major break in nineteen eighty
three with Dominic Montiglio, and that he eventually spoke of
the seventy confirmed seventy nine murders and identified the perpetrators,
and his cooperation resulted in two major trials in the
Southern District of New York and twenty five convictions closing

(47:13):
seventy nine coal case murders.

Speaker 3 (47:17):
Yeah, very interesting when when you and again like murder
Machine does such an effective job capped during this really
down to a granular level. Dominic Montiglio was actually the
nephew of Nino Gadget, one of the top captains under
Paul Castellano, and actually, like the Veteran Friend, the Veteran

(47:38):
and Friends Club, which Castellano wanted open so he could
have more of a street presence, was opened by Dominic.
And Dominic was a former member of the military. He
was closely through his relationship with his uncle, he was
a major organized crime operative. But he was also closely

(47:59):
al lines with Roy DeMeo because DeMeo was a captain
underneath Gadget. So he had a pretty prolific criminal career.
Uh and and he actually later he went into witness protection.
Ninogadget died in prison, Frank Pergola, Cape kept in touch
with him, and then he actually he came back, Dominic

(48:20):
came back to New York. He spent time as an artist.
There's also some documentaries that are out there that are
very you know, very interesting, So I highly recommend those.

Speaker 2 (48:31):
But Jesus has an opportunity to stop to hear these messages. Now,
there are some fascinating cases involving fellow law enforcement that
were murdered and Anthony John Nelson's involvement in those investigations.
And you write about Christopher G. Hobin and fellow undercover

(48:54):
narcotics officer Michael Jerman where they were killed in a
in a drug deal by drug dealers. Tell us about
the enormous response by law enforming at their funerals, but
also more so about the investigation that Nelson conducted into
their murders.

Speaker 3 (49:14):
Yeah, Dan, this was again I can't under emphasize, you know,
going through this journey with Anthony, and just like with
each clipping he pulled out, it was wow, this is
a chapter here, This is just it's just compelling. He
was involved and contributed to so many major cases. October eighteenth,

(49:35):
nineteen eighty eight. You know, it's one of the darkest
days in the history of the New York City Police Department.
You had undercover narcotics officers hob and German entering an
apartment up in West one hundred and fifth Street in
Upper Manhattan to make a drug buy and the drug
adult you know, suspects get suspicious. There's a close ques

(50:00):
order to shootout, hoping kills one of the one of
the suspects, but he's unfortunately murdered at the same time
in an unrelated incident in Washington Heights who Bug Sick
was killed trying to arrest two suspective members of Dominican
drug gang. So you had this, you know, this is
the first time where you had multiple uh NYPD officers,

(50:23):
you know, murdered on the same day, UH in separate incidents.
So it's a pretty dramatic setting to to step into.
So Anthony gets the call to work the case for
the FBI. That's that's the the Hulman murder, and he
contacts NYPD's detective Michael Sheen. Folks from the New York
area may be familiar with Michael Sheen because he was

(50:46):
very highly decorated detective and then later had a had
a very successful career in the media. Great cross collaboration
between agencies. They get a solid lead. They identify ben
Venudo Castilio as one of the one of the individuals
who was in the apartment at the time of the
Hoby murder, and he was even the suspected shooter. Now,

(51:09):
these guys are not that hard to find and need
to be flushed out. So and then also you know
they have relationships or with an and very easy to flee,
flee the jurisdiction. So time is of the essence. You know,
they canvassed, you know, with with this interagency collaboration, they're
canvassing all these known locations. They're hunting down Castilio gang members,

(51:31):
apprehending them. Their raids are going down all over the city.
Uh So Anthony's fighting the clock and they're able. Castilla
leaves the jurisdiction, but they're able to find find out
where he is. But in order to do that, you know,
unlike the criminals, law enforcement has to follow certain rules.
So Anthony's able to get a local warrant and get

(51:53):
it to the US Attorney's office and obtain an unlawful
flight warrant in sort of record time. He usually takes
like six hours to get a warrant in the Southern District.
I just want to say, I'm not I'm not an
expert here, I'm not a qualified resource of just sharing
some of my reporting, but really it takes like six
hours hours to get it. You know, obviously you know
their protocols to follow Anthony, he's able to get it

(52:14):
within within an hour. Uh, because Castillo had fled to
Puerto Rico, San Juan, FBI agents are able to within
an hour after the war was issued, they were able
to track down Castidia and fortunately, uh, Anthony had the
force sight to include a drug count in the complaint
to eliminate any possibility of Casteriio securing a release on

(52:36):
bail in Puerto Rico. And because obviously as soon as
he gets on bail, he's he's gonna flee the country
there and they'll probably never get him again. And this
brings up another point. You know, I just to just
to flag and George Terror George famous detective and he
he was later the lead detective, the lead investigator for
the for the King County's District Attorney's office. When Anthony

(53:00):
eventually went over to that office as an investigator, and
George terror just say, no one could write the search
warrants as well as Anthony could. That was just like
his calling card, just so organized, and it just speaks
to his character attention to detail, and they were able
to apprehend castile.

Speaker 2 (53:17):
And you're right too that after two FBI agents from
San Juan with honorary NYPD detective shields were plaques from
the NYPD Endowment Association to from Michael Sheehan presented to
Anthony Nelson.

Speaker 3 (53:40):
Yes, correct, that's another thing he and he's almost going
back to that, that that really profound breakfast that I
had with him and his wife. He's still sort of
hiding those. He's kinda stack of these like really compelling,
you know, accommodations, Like he just did not want to
draw the attention to that, but he's he like because

(54:01):
of his foresight, because of his expertise, like being able
to make the right moves at the right time, he
was he was frequently commended and I think like well deserved.

Speaker 2 (54:13):
You're right that. In December twenty twelve, Nelson retires as
Assistant Deputy Chief of the Special Investigations Unit in the
Brooklyn District Attorney's office.

Speaker 3 (54:25):
That was when he after he retired from the FBI,
he still had in many relationships and would frequently talk
with members of law enforcement and and he worked frequently
with George Terra while he was at the FBI. And
then it just it was such a natural fit for

(54:46):
him to go over to work at the Brooklyn Dida's office,
and he had he had a pretty good run there
as well. In fact, he worked on and this is
again Dan, I'm I'm I'm I'm writing for myself. So
I'm a true crime fan. And I grew up like
just reading Gangling whatever Gangling coms whenever they came out,
and you know, picking up the latest copy of TJ.

(55:07):
English's books and all this all this amazing material. And
I remember there was this bones case. And this was
a case involving corrupt funeral home director who when families
that that wouldn't entrust the remains of their loved ones.
He was actually harvesting biological material, their actual their skin,

(55:29):
their bones, or and he was selling it through connections
for medical procedures and and and even more galling. You
had some of the some of this material was was contaminated.
You had instances where you had HIV patients who had
who perished, who was harvesting material from them and then

(55:51):
passing it off as uncontaminated body biological material for surgeries.
So Anthony was was the investigator on that case. And
I was blown away when I because I remember reading
these cases and and how outrageous they were and how
they took over headlines for a couple of days.

Speaker 2 (56:13):
You're also right at the very end that talking about
Anthony's love and respect for his friend Kenneth McCabe, who
passed away from cancer a brave fight in two thousand
and six at the young age of fifty nine years old.

Speaker 3 (56:29):
You know, if there's one setting aside, you know, Anthony
really wanted to get out the message that you know,
especially for young members of law enforcement today, that he
doesn't think they did they're treated fairly or given the
level of recognition that they deserve, and he wants them
to know that, yes, we are out here and we
do appreciate everything that you do. But he also was

(56:51):
it was very important to him, you know, share the
legacy of Kenny McCabe. Like these these two men did
remarkable work together. The thing with Kenny McCabe was, there's
there's really no no media out there on it, you know,
at a time when you had many, you know, detectives.
This is the rise of like the Purple Walk, the

(57:14):
rise of the press release where you had many members
of law enforcem and being almost media personalities. That was
just not in Kenny McCabe's playbooks. So he never did this.
You don't have this plethora of clips that you could
pull forth to even do it documentary and like if

(57:35):
you're familiar with like like content production at that scale,
when you don't have that kind of material, this is
just so much you could do with b roll before
the whole thing falls apart. So not having that, I
think that's one of the reasons why Kenny McCabe is there.
They haven't done like the Hollywood movie treatment, which she
very much deserves. And and again Anthony just he just

(57:57):
said and he really wanted to make sure we did
do as much as we could to promote that. And
then also again Duke McCabe, God bless you, my friend.
I really hope the best for you bringing that story
to light, because it is some compelling material. There's a
ton of stuff that out of respect I didn't not
include because I just has such amazing stories to tell.

Speaker 2 (58:20):
Yes, I totally agree. There's so many very vivid scenes,
very movieesque, and this is a very colorful and powerful
memoir of Anthony John Nelson. I want to thank you
very much for coming on and talking about Empire City
under Siege, three decades of New York FBI Field Office, manhunts,
murders and mafia wars with Craig Maguire. Thank you so

(58:45):
much for this interview. For those people that might want
to find out more about this book, do you do
any social media have a website they might refer to?

Speaker 3 (58:53):
Yes? Please. I want to say this something special going
on at Wild Blue Press and they've support ordered me
on this journey there my publisher. I do encourage you
to visit wilb Blue Press dot com as well as
the Wild Blo Press and social media. We have a
lot of exciting things coming up around around the book.

(59:14):
We have a lot of great material and some excerpts
that we are sharing. Plus there's some other great content
that Wild Blue Press puts out in They really specialize
in true crime with some other other genres. I just
really want to thank Anthony for giving me the privilege
to tell his stories.

Speaker 2 (59:35):
Yes, I want to thank him too for sharing this
incredible story. Thank you so much, Craig maguire for Empire
City under siege, three decades of New York FBI Field Office, manhunts,
murders and mafia wars. Thank you so much for this interview,
and you have a great evening and good night.

Speaker 3 (59:53):
Thank you, Jan, Thank you.