October 6, 2025 • 50 mins
They blended in. They raised families, held steady jobs, and hid in plain sight. But behind the mask of normalcy, they were monsters—responsible for decades of terror, pain, and death.
Every Killer Leaves A Trace is a chilling narrative nonfiction thriller that exposes moments that led to the shocking unmasking and ultimate capture of twenty-six of America’s most elusive killers. From accidental slips to cutting-edge forensic breakthroughs, each chapter reveals how justice caught up with murderers who thought they’d never be found.
Meticulously researched and drawn from court records, autopsy reports, FBI case files, and firsthand interviews with investigators and victims’ families, this book is a haunting journey through deception, violence, and the relentless pursuit of truth.
These are not just stories of murder. They are blueprints of how justice, though often delayed, is never truly denied.
They got away with murder—until they didn’t. EVERY KILLER LEAVES A TRACE: The Fatal Mistakes That Finally Exposed the Most Elusive Killers-Dennis Carson
Every Killer Leaves A Trace is a chilling narrative nonfiction thriller that exposes moments that led to the shocking unmasking and ultimate capture of twenty-six of America’s most elusive killers. From accidental slips to cutting-edge forensic breakthroughs, each chapter reveals how justice caught up with murderers who thought they’d never be found.
Meticulously researched and drawn from court records, autopsy reports, FBI case files, and firsthand interviews with investigators and victims’ families, this book is a haunting journey through deception, violence, and the relentless pursuit of truth.
These are not just stories of murder. They are blueprints of how justice, though often delayed, is never truly denied.
They got away with murder—until they didn’t. EVERY KILLER LEAVES A TRACE: The Fatal Mistakes That Finally Exposed the Most Elusive Killers-Dennis Carson
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:07):
You are now listening to True Murder, the most shocking
killers in true crime history and the authors that have
written about them. Gasey, Bundy, Dahmer, The Nightstalker VTK Every
week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and
infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with your host,
(00:30):
journalist and author Dan Zufanski.
Speaker 2 (00:39):
Good Evening. They blended in, they raised families, held steady jobs,
and hid in plain sight. But behind the mask of normalcy,
they were monsters responsible for decades of terror, pain and death.
Every Killer Leads a Trace is a chilling now of
(01:00):
nonfiction thriller that exposes moments that led to the shocking,
unmasking and ultimate capture of twenty six of America's most
elusive killers. From accidental slips to cutting edge forensic breakthroughs,
each chapter reveals how justice caught up with the murderers
who thought they'd never be found. Meticulously researched and drawn
(01:24):
from court records, autopsy reports, FBI case files, and first
hand interviews with investigators and victims families, this book is
a haunting journey through deception, violence, and the relentless pursuit
of truth. These are not just stories of murder. They
are blueprints of how justice, though often delayed, is never
(01:47):
truly denied. They got away with murder until they didn't.
The book they were featuring this evening is Every Killer
Leaves a Trace, The fatal mistakes that fire expose the
most elusive killers, with my special guest author Dennis Carson.
(02:07):
Welcome to the program, and thank you very much for
this interview. Dennis Carson, You're very welcome and thank you
for having me. Thank you so much. Now, this book,
Every Killer Leads a Trace, The fatal mistakes that finally
exposed America's most elusive killers. You're right that Every Killer
(02:29):
Leads a Trace offers a compelling exploration of the darkest
recesses of human behavior. Chronicling twenty six chilling true crime
cases from modern history and is a tribute to the
pursuit of justice, the resilience of survivors, and the relentless
efforts of those who seek truth in the aftermath of horror.
(02:54):
Each chapter dissects the final fatal act that ultimately exposed
the murder on unraveled their ability to hide in plain sight.
Tell us why you wrote this book. What are the
origins of this book?
Speaker 3 (03:12):
Well, that's a really important question. I wrote Every Killer
Leaves a Trace because I wanted to challenge the myth
of the so called perfect killer. You know, for years
we've seen this narrative that some murders are just too clever,
too elusive to ever be caught. But when you look closely,
every single one of them made a mistake. And that
mistake is whether it's a trace of DNA, a careless decision,
(03:37):
or a small clue investigators refused to look at. That's
finally what took them down. But you know, actually, Dan,
there's another side to it. The book isn't just about
crime scenes and evidence. It's about the families and the
investigators who refused silence, mothers who wouldn't let their children's
(03:58):
stories be buried, to refuse to give up even when
the case went cold. You know, in interviewing all these people,
it was their persistence, combined with the rise of forensic science,
that ultimately forced the truth to come into the light.
But clearly, I didn't write this book to glorify killers.
I mean, there's not a chance in heck. I wrote
(04:19):
it to honor the victims, to shine a light on resilience,
and to remind readers that justice is never really out
of reach. The dead do speak if we're willing to
listen to them.
Speaker 2 (04:32):
Now, give us a little bit of your background before
you endeavored to do this project. I know that you
had a book under a pen name that you had
written previously. But also you speak about this team that
you have of specialists. Can you tell us about this
team that supports you in your writing.
Speaker 3 (04:53):
Unfortunately, this gentleman has died about two years ago, and
that was the La County Corn to the Stars, Ed Winter.
He handled cases like Whitney Houston, Michael Jackson, Kobe Bryant,
Nipsey Hustle, blah blah blah blah. But like I said, unfortunately,
my friend Ed did die two years ago. In any event,
(05:14):
to ensure the autestent, authenticity and depth of my narrative,
I work with Dottie Owens. She's the renowned former Idaho coroner.
She retired about eight months ago, and Lina Evans, Alabama's
current coroner. I love Lina because she's known for her
on wavering pursuit of justice. I mean, she's a real
(05:36):
dog in and you know, don't let go kind of person.
I also work with a judge in New York who
was a former district attorney, and another two other members
of the team are Wesley Jennings, one of the world's
leading criminologists, and doctor Ashley Wellman. She's a certified forensic
(05:57):
death investigator. So Dan, that's basically the team. And as
we move on. As I moved on in each case,
I did interview different investigators, corners and the like, and
families for that matter.
Speaker 2 (06:14):
Now tell us the criteria for better for lack of
a better term, or the reasons for including all of
these twenty six stories, And with that, could you give
us the contents of this incredible collection.
Speaker 3 (06:30):
I looked at it that, Okay, some of these people
are household names. Ted Bundy as an example, you know,
we know about him, but so many of them are
just not household names. And I felt that the general
public interested in true crime should know about all these
other people, and I picked twenty six. You'll notice that
(06:52):
twenty five of the twenty six are male. There's only
one female, and I only included her because she was
the strongest of all the female killers. Believe it or not,
So would you like me to run down some of
these twenty six cases, yes please, okay sure. Starting off
with Rodney Alcohola. He's known as the Dating Game Killer.
(07:17):
He was a smooth talking predator. He did his murders
behind a smile on national television, so the girls, the women,
you know, felt comfortable with him. I mean, this clown
was on TV. He had to be okay. Then there's
Angel Risendies. He's known as the Railroad Killer. He was
(07:38):
a drifter by nature. He moved between the US and Mexico,
blending into the shadows as he rode the trains. He
broke into homes along the tracks, turning ordinary houses into
scenes of unspeakable violence. I mean it was pretty dog
on bad. John Wacey Gasey the killer clown. This guy
(07:59):
really gets you. He's a seemingly upstanding neighbor whose playful
clown prosanna earned him trust at children's parties and community events.
He blended right in. Everybody loved him. He was the clown,
you know. But in the end, he abducted and lured
countless men I don't remember, it was something like twenty
(08:21):
into his home and brutally assaulted them and raped them,
and the bodies were found in his addict for a
smell by one of the neighbors discovered. Then there's John
Albert Gardner, the third, known as the San Diego rapist
and killer. He was a convicted sex offender. He roamed
(08:43):
suburban neighborhoods hunting for vulnerable young girls. His predatory violence
culminated with the murders of Chelsea King and Amber du Bois.
And they were a few years apart, those two murders,
but they came together when the body of Amber was
found and then the evidence tied back to Chelsea. So
(09:04):
that's how both of them came to be. Cameron Hooker,
this guy's known as the Girl in the Box kidnapper.
He was quite a family man. He had a secret
life of brutality. And this is a case that Dan,
I'm going to give you a little bit more on
because it struck me as totally obnoxious. He kept colleens
(09:27):
Stan confined in a coffin like box beneath his bed
for several years. And how he got Colleen was she
was on her way from northern California to attend a
wedding here in southern California, and she was hitchhiking and
(09:47):
she was stopped by Cameron hooker, and she looked in
the car. He offered her ride. She looked in the
car and she saw a woman who was Cameron's wife,
holding a little baby in her arms. So Colleen thought,
what the heck looks kosher. I'm going to go with it.
So he kept her in this box for three years
(10:07):
some people some reports claim it was just under four years,
but basically three years. It all came to a head
when his wife decided she was going to come clean
and no longer support his doings. This case struck me
because of the gross brutality of one particular event. Here's
(10:29):
what happened, many many times. He would invite his goofball
friends over to his house to watch him abuse a Colleen.
One particular evening, he stripped her. He put her in
a chair, tied her down, spread her legs. He warmed
up some turkey gravy, and he poured it into her legs,
(10:50):
into her vagina. He had his dog lick the gravy.
I don't know if that's appropriate to include in this interview,
but I just wanted to tell you why that case
struck me so hard.
Speaker 2 (11:05):
What else did you determine from this absolutely deplorable disgusting case.
What else is it an example of in your mind?
Speaker 3 (11:16):
Well, I guess what it really comes down to is
that he went unnoticed, undetected for god knows how many years.
I mean, there's reports. I found reports telling me that
it was three years. Some say seven years. I don't know.
I mean, I can't put my finger on an exact
amount of time. But it was many, many years. And
(11:37):
the neighbors didn't think anything of him. Nobody thought anything
of him. He blended right in with society. He was
a member of the country club, blah blah blah blah blah.
But yet there he is, this incredibly terrible human being.
Speaker 2 (11:53):
It isn't extraordinary that the only way anyone finds out
is because the previously abused wife bonded with Colleen rather
than her own husband, more so than her own husband,
leading to a complete I will say, change of heart. Yes.
Speaker 3 (12:18):
So what she did, to be specific for your audience,
is that she let Colleen out of the box and
she took her to a neighbor, and the neighbor thought
something was wrong because she could see all these people
coming and going, you know, for years, and she never
saw anybody except and the members of the family other
(12:39):
than you know, him and his wife. And she wondered
what happened that all these people came and went, but
yet there's no other members of the family. So when
Colleen escaped, she knocked on this woman's door and together
they went to the police.
Speaker 2 (12:55):
Yes, an extraordinary story, really is.
Speaker 3 (12:58):
It's sad. I mean, wow, think about that scene that
I just told you about, whoa Hello.
Speaker 2 (13:06):
Well, there's so much more to that story as well,
because part of the captivity included a psychological twist in
terms of not only are you in a coffin underneath
a bed, but you believe that you are a sex slave,
and that if you are to escape, then this corporation,
(13:27):
the syndicate, would kill your in her entire family.
Speaker 3 (13:31):
That's exactly right. He Cameron hounded that into her head
for years, and she believed it. In fact, there was
a period of time that she begged if she could
go see her parents, and he agreed, and she had
a visit with her parents, but he told her, you
open your mouth about anything that's going on, and when
(13:52):
we get back home, I will kill you.
Speaker 2 (13:54):
Period. Let's use this as an opportunity to stop to
hear the messages. You say that this book examines also
the rise of intinerant killers, killers who use mobility as
a weapon, and how law enforcement's growing ability to detect
(14:14):
and connect across jurisdiction has finally turned the tide. Can
you give us an example of a story in this
book which demonstrates some of these critical issues.
Speaker 3 (14:30):
Probably Tommy Lynne sells the Coast to Coast Killer. Yeah,
I would say so that because what happened with him
is the cops got wind of what he was doing
and they finally managed to make a connection with crimes
that had happened, victims that were found dead and et cetera,
(14:51):
and they tied it back to him. He had a
staggering body count. He was one of the most horrifying
nomadic killers. I guess that's the best way of putting it.
Speaker 2 (15:04):
You include Adam Leroy Lane talking about mobile killers, and
this is what you titled the Highway Killer. This is
a fascinating story because of the intersection again of fate
to stay, fluke of nature and the serial killer was
intercepted in someone's home by the parents. Can you tell
(15:27):
us a little bit about this story, but most importantly,
what it demonstrates and illustrates with this story.
Speaker 3 (15:36):
Yes, so, how the story worked out is that Lane
as a highway killer. He went from city to city,
state to state, and he stumbled upon a home and
the back door was unlocked, and it was unlocked because
the daughter of the family. She had left the door
(15:58):
unlocked because she thought her her boyfriend and maybe had
forgotten the key and was coming in late, so she
left the door unlocked. He came in, he attacked the family.
He brutally assaulted the father, and it ended up that
between the father excuse, between the mother and the daughter,
(16:19):
they managed to nail the guy down. I just have
no way of saying it to you, but this guy
was an animal in the way he brutally assaulted everybody.
And he was a big guy. I mean, this wasn't
some you know, one hundred and ten pound weekling. He
was a big boy. And the father had a hard
time holding him down that the mother had to participate
(16:41):
in holding him down, but they did manage to do it,
and they did nail him.
Speaker 2 (16:47):
It's a very vivid scene when you have this smaller
man with this bigger killer. But this smaller man is
determined to protect his family and his daughter specifically, and
he's got this guy in a headlock filled the police
outcome in that's right.
Speaker 3 (17:03):
Yeah, an amazing story.
Speaker 2 (17:06):
What were the most prevalent themes do you think that
were contained in these twenty six stories? Oh? Yeah.
Speaker 3 (17:13):
David Parker Ray the toy box killer. He was a
sadistic predator. He took a sound proof trailer in New
Mexico desert and he turned it into a chamber of horrors.
He lured women into his so called toy box, where
(17:33):
they were subjected to unspeakable horrors that defied comprehension for years.
This went on for years, I mean, his hidden world
of cruelty went unnoticed and I can't tell you. I
think it was like five to eight years. And his
toy box, there are pictures online that your listeners can
(17:56):
can go Google search. It was an amazing contraption, this
toy box. And he was able to hang the victims,
shock treatments, all kinds of things in this quote unquote
toy box.
Speaker 2 (18:13):
What surprised you the most while researching these stories? Which
story or what surprised you the most?
Speaker 3 (18:22):
I guess, Dan, that's a tough one because each case
in the book carries its own kind of shock. I
guess if I had to pick, I'd say Israel Keys
really stood out to me because he wasn't just a killer.
He was methodical in the way that he almost that
was almost chilling. You know, I guess you realized he
buried kill kits across the country. You know, he had guns, ropes,
(18:46):
blah blah blah, so he could pick a state at random,
dig up one of the kill kits, and commit a
murder without leaving a trace of planning behind. Despite all
of that planning, he did did make mistakes. He used
the victims debit card, talk about stupid, left the digital footprint,
and from there investigators were able to trace his trail.
(19:07):
It's a perfect example of what the book is about.
Even the most disciplined, elusive predator eventually reveals himself one
way or the other. I guess if I had to
mention a second case, it would be Ted Bundy, because
he crafted an image of being intelligent, charming, even trustworthy
(19:29):
to some extent. He was a law student and appeared
to be from the outside world well put together. That
facade allowed him to lure victims right from college campuses.
That was both fascinating and terrifying how rapidly his mask
started to crack. One of his victims escaped by the
(19:50):
way and provided a police with a detailed description. Authorities
later identified his car and they found hairs and fibers
inside that that linked directly to the woman that he
had murdered. You know, for someone who considered himself so clever,
it was simple traceable evidence then nailed them.
Speaker 2 (20:12):
You include a story that you titled the Amazon Review Killer,
particularly not lesser known story, but an incredible story. Nevertheless,
this is a todd coal hip, and this is a wealthy,
successful real estate agent with about one hundred acre estate.
(20:33):
And this is more recent cases when you talk about
Ted Bundy or Israel Keys. A lot of these lesser
known cases that you include in this book are more recent.
This one's twenty and sixteen, and a story and trial
evolve afterwards, so very very recent incredible crimes and killers.
(20:54):
Tell us a little bit about this Amazon review killer
and what this story straits.
Speaker 3 (21:01):
Here's the thing with this guy. He after every kill
that he performed, he would post on Amazon. As an example,
this knife is the best dug on knife for slicing
a throat this bag is perfect for stuffing a body
(21:21):
into and dumping it into a lake. I mean, that's
how he got caught.
Speaker 2 (21:27):
We also the correspondence, and again you write in this
book that advances in forensic technology, but also in things
like detecting phone locations through pings on towers, and also
just the recovery data recovery of text messages which are
(21:49):
incriminating and damning and provide crucial evidence to investigators. So
in this particular case, investigators were able to look at
previous his text and then be able to get a
search warrant. That's correct.
Speaker 3 (22:05):
Yeah, he made His big mistake was going on Amazon.
That was the mistake.
Speaker 2 (22:12):
What you read about, though, is this extraordinary case is
that this murderous person could have been stopped at least
he was recognized or at least be recognized. This person
had moved to Germany with his parents, with his father specifically,
(22:33):
and committed crimes in Germany at that time. Because of
his age, he was not given a lengthy term. He
was given a six year reformatory sentence rather than the
tenure minimum that he would have faced as this juvenile
in Germany. From that if he would have been stopped.
(22:54):
If he would have been imprisoned for life, none of
this rest of this story we'd be reading right now.
Speaker 3 (23:00):
That's absolutely true, And there is no explanation that I
can find anywhere of why his sentence was that light.
Speaker 2 (23:12):
Well, it seems like I know from many jurisdictions outside
of the US that there is a difference in manslaughter
and murder and the criteria for manslaughter versus murder, so
that possibly would be a reason for the lenient sentencing.
(23:33):
But you also say that because he was a juvenile
he received a lighter sentence.
Speaker 3 (23:40):
That's also true. But you know, I don't know how
your listeners feel about a murderer, but to me, a murderer,
whether he's eighteen years old or seventy eight years old,
he's still a murderer and needs to be dealt with
that way.
Speaker 2 (23:58):
Well that I think you would get a lot of
people to agree with that, And that is a contentious
issue in so many American states, is what exactly is
that age that you would give someone a life sentence
with no possibility of parole. So there are various states
where certainly people of eighteen or less would be given
(24:23):
sentences that were in that sort of range murder, first
degree murder, second degree murder, but given a life sentence
with no possibility of parole. So I believe many jurisdictions Canada,
Germany to UK many countries have maximum sentences that do
not include no parole eligibility whatsoever, actual life, actual life sentences.
(24:50):
You have a story entitled Tagged and This Khalil Wheeler Weaver.
This is a fascinating story with some complex issues at heart.
Can you tell us a little bit about Tagged? Yeah?
Speaker 3 (25:08):
He he basically weaponized social media to identify and lure
of vulnerable women. He used in online interactions to gain
their trust and their comfort level, and then he set
deadly traps where he brutally murdered them and across all
(25:31):
of New Jersey. His crimes exposed a dark intersection in
my humble opinion of digital anonminity and real world violence,
which showed how easily technology could be twisted into a
pool of violence.
Speaker 2 (25:50):
Also, the issue that comes in this story dramatically is
that when a woman is this Tiffany Taylor is attacked,
she goes to police with evidence, with damning evidence, and
the police turn her away and dismiss her claims. Completely.
Speaker 3 (26:12):
That's correct.
Speaker 2 (26:13):
So this story doesn't get a resolve. The killer is
not apprehended until the community sympathizes with a victim who
is not a sex worker. Can you tell us about
this dramatic difference in how police and society treat victims
of crime.
Speaker 3 (26:35):
Well, from what I have learned writing this book is
that if there's an obvious appearance level of a woman
being a sex worker, some cops will discount her testimony
of what she claims happened. I don't believe that's the
(26:59):
right thing to do. It's back to what I said before.
A killer is a killer regardless of the clothes he
wears or how old he or she may be, and
that's really a problem in our society.
Speaker 2 (27:12):
In my opinion, this story is fascinating for readers to
discover because there really are people that are looking out
for their family member and they take action. And what
they do is that they go to social media and
they try to set up this person, to get this
(27:34):
person to reveal himself. It's very fascinating this effort that
this family puts towards seeking justice for themselves and their
family member. That's right.
Speaker 3 (27:47):
The family played a very important role and it worked.
Speaker 2 (27:52):
That Jesus has an opportunity to stop to hear these
messages in all of these case I know it must
have been hard doing that this original investigation and research.
Was there any case that affected you personally? Yeah?
Speaker 3 (28:15):
What really stays with me isn't just the killers, it's
the families. Because reading about the investigation is one thing,
but you know, hearing how the family fought for answers,
how they lived with that uncertainty, and then how justice
finally arrived, it's impossible not to feel the weight of that.
(28:37):
These are not just crime stories, they're human stories. You know,
behind every headline there's a daughter, a sister, a friend
whose life was taken and families who carry that grief forever.
I mean, they can't get rid of that grief. It's
there forever. And for me, that's what makes this work meaningful.
It's about giving those voices space, not just they killers.
(29:01):
And that's really important to me. So if you ask
me which case really affected me the most, it would
probably Bundy, because behind his infamous reputation and mythological image,
there was a real young woman who lost her real
young women plural, who lost their lives. Bundy projected this
(29:23):
aura of charm intelligence, successfully deceiving a lot of women
for god knows how long. But what the most important
haunting thing to know is how he targeted his students.
They were women with bright futures. They trusted him during
what was seemingly normal everyday moments. He invited him for
(29:45):
a drink out to dinner. Bundy is a class act
by himself. In so far as serial killers.
Speaker 2 (29:54):
You read about a lesser known sterial killer in chapter sixteen,
International serial killer Harold David Hallman, the third. This is
very interesting. Again a more recent case December fourth, twenty twenty.
This is very interesting in that the perpetrator decided to
(30:19):
pick on We talk about sex workers, we talk about
people that matter less in society. Families not always support of.
This is a different type of vulnerability that this perpetrator
decided to take advantage of, didn't he. Yes, that's right.
(30:41):
He was looking at women. He would stop a woman
and analyze her, whether it was at a restaurant, bus stop, whatever,
and say I.
Speaker 3 (30:52):
Could do her. And he just had this instantaneous picture
in his mind that she was his next victim. And
that's what he did. And I mean he did it internationally,
like you said, international serial killer, United States and abroad.
So he was really a piece of work.
Speaker 2 (31:15):
It's interesting that this there's correspondence. She had spoken to
her friend, This Erica Jeen Schultz, twenty six year old,
she had met someone online and she had shared that
information with a friend. So police were able to see
that there was this correspondence with Harold David Hallman. They
(31:37):
didn't get to him right away, but they were able
to track his movements because his phone was found. And
so as I mentioned this developments in being able to
use this new type of digital evidence to be able
to crack and to also convict a serial killer like
(31:59):
David Hallman.
Speaker 3 (32:00):
The third well, you know, talk about cereal excuse me,
cellular that was one of the elements and pieces of
evidence in the Idaho murders.
Speaker 2 (32:11):
Give us some examples of some of the dramatic mistakes
that were made by some of these killers that even
in your research, seemed to be so unique that you
included them in this book.
Speaker 3 (32:26):
You know, I think some of it is just back
to what we were just talking a couple seconds ago.
It's about the advantages in technology in forensic science. As
I mentioned, earlier, my good friend, the late Ed Winter,
we talked about at length what the La County Corner
(32:48):
was able to put together through advancements in forensic science.
I guess let me elaborate a little bit. When Ed
first joined the LA County Corner's office, God knows, I
guess that was ten fifteen years earlier, that science wasn't
to the point where it is today, and that science
(33:12):
has helped did help him immensely in solving some of
these cases. And so some of these cases are stupid. Dan,
I'm going to digress for just a second and tell
you about a case that I did not write about
that involved in. Is that okay, absolutely okay, this might
bring a smile to your face. So here's the scene.
(33:35):
So this given day, I was supposed to have lunch
at Philipe's French Tip sandwich place, very famous in downtown
LA and I was supposed to have lunch with d
that day. So, as the story goes, he was in
his office alone early that morning, very unusual that nobody
(33:58):
was there to answer the phone but him. He picked
up the phone and this gentleman identified himself and he said,
my name is and I'll just use the first name David,
and I'm a chef here in Los Angeles, and I
had an argument with my wife and I cut her
(34:20):
up into pieces, a lot of pieces, and I have
been boiling her in the large vats that I have
in my kitchen, and I boiled her for her gaudy
parts for four days. As I'm talking to you, I'm
eating her arm.
Speaker 2 (34:39):
Wow.
Speaker 3 (34:40):
Okay, So now I'm going to fast forward to Felipe's
and Ed walking in the door and couldn't wait to
tell me the story. Okay. So when he finished, I
looked at him with a tiny smile on my face
and I said, you didn't happen to ask him if
he made a side dish to go with the arm?
Speaker 2 (35:00):
Wow?
Speaker 3 (35:01):
Yeah, yeah, I mean these people are straight. And you
know what his answer was, Yes?
Speaker 2 (35:10):
What are some of the most dramatic mistakes? Are the
most common mistakes that these killers make? In this research
that you've done for this book.
Speaker 3 (35:22):
I guess two things surprised me the most. First, the
arrogance of the killers. So many of them believe they
were untouchable. That's a case closed. You're never going to
get me. Second, the persistence of the families and the
investigators that I spoke with, some mothers, sisters. Detectives spent
(35:43):
decades fighting for answers, But it was their resilience and technology,
not the killers violence that define their stories. The persistence
is what finally forced the truth into light, and that
really truck me. You know, it was the truth that
brought them down.
Speaker 2 (36:05):
The truth brought them down. But there are cases in
this book as well where dogged law enforcement that never
gave up, family members that never gave up. That's right,
victims that utilized We didn't talk about some of the
efforts that some of the people did that would have
(36:27):
ended up being dead. But they had a plan to
convince that killer that they should be let go, that
they wouldn't be able to inform on them to police, right,
did anything, employed any technique and tactic to escape the
(36:47):
one person was again closing up to the killer, at
least in his mind, but at the same time was
double jointed and was plotting her escape. She did get
into this room, locked the door because she was able
to free herself from those handcuffs, so she had the
wherewithal and the state of mind to be able to
(37:11):
think that I'm going to be a survivor. I am
going to survive and I'm going to do whatever it
takes to escape. And she did.
Speaker 3 (37:18):
That's right. You know, you got to look at the
at the victims. And I said it a few minutes ago.
One of the things that the thing that really got
me more than the killers themselves was the victims and
the victims' families, how they participated in providing you know, support,
evidence and et cetera. It was just amazing, it really was.
(37:43):
And you know, I can't tell you how many detectives
in my career I've interviewed. I've lost count, but some
of them are were very forthcoming and others were don't
bother me. I'm a detective, and you know that doesn't work.
What works is cooperation between law enforcement, the judicial system,
(38:07):
and the families. And if you don't have that, you're
not going to get anywhere.
Speaker 2 (38:14):
But Jesus has an opportunity to stop to hear these
messages you talk about that these killers make clear mistakes
because many of them, many many of these stories feature
a killer that believes he's invincible, and he believes he's
invincible because he's getting away with murders. You have one
(38:36):
where the person again a disgusting, deplorable murder, but the
next day he's back at it. There's many killers that
don't spend much time. They are dedicated to their murderous activities.
So you really have a lot of cases where, especially
in the past, where jurisdictions didn't communicate the state of
(38:59):
technology was primitive, and so these people felt emboldened. Ramarrez,
Richard Ramirez felt like he had the luck of Satan
behind him because doors were unlocked. Many of these victim's
mistakes were that they were unlocked doors.
Speaker 3 (39:19):
That's right, that's right, and innocent, innocent people, just girls
walking down the street that one of these predators would
see and go, oh, there's my next Mark. Honest to god, Dan,
this book really took a lot out of me. I'm
going to digress on this book for just a moment.
My next book is going to really shock you because
(39:47):
it's proof positive that the judicial system failed. Case closed,
and this.
Speaker 2 (39:58):
Is a case involving the death penalty.
Speaker 3 (40:02):
Okay, I have to be vague obviously, because you know
the book is not out yet, but it involves it's
two cases. One was a woman that was found and
murdered and the corner ruled it as accidental death. The
(40:28):
second case involves a gentleman who was left handed, could
not hold anything in his left hand. He was found
in his recliner with a bullet hole to the left
side of his head, which means that he would have
had to hold the gun in his right hand, put
(40:51):
it around the back of his head and shoot himself.
And let's assume he was even able to do that,
the gun would have flown out into the room. But
the pictures that the detectives have of the crime scene
shows him in his recliner with that gun in his lap. Wow, impossible,
(41:17):
And that same corner ruled that accidental death.
Speaker 2 (41:23):
Incredible.
Speaker 3 (41:24):
Yeah, I think you're going to like this next book.
It will set you aside, It really will, because you're
going to say, how the hell did this happen?
Speaker 2 (41:35):
And when is that slated for release? Any kind of
rough idea?
Speaker 3 (41:39):
Sometime next year I'm about I'm saying, maybe two months
away from handing it in to the publisher. I have
spent three years researching the evidence and talking to God
knows how many people, interviewing God knows how many detectives corners.
(42:01):
And by the way, let me give you a tidbit
to this, that same corner medical I should be technical,
that same medical examiner has come forward saying that that
person lied because they were pressured.
Speaker 2 (42:22):
To do so. Wow, we look forward to that.
Speaker 3 (42:27):
Yeah, it's it's pretty damn heavy. I gotta tell you
my girlfriend, who I think I've mentioned before, you know,
maybe on the phone or whatever. Tell you we've been
together for almost forty years, and she sees so many
of these things across my desk, and she hears the
zoom calls and the zoom calls involving these two cases.
(42:47):
She walked out of the office and started crying.
Speaker 2 (42:51):
Yeah, blame her. The you cover no dispute some of
the worst killers in history, they were serial killers in history,
and their deplorable actions. In researching this book, again we
talk about how it affected you personally and how far
(43:14):
you went into the investigation into these stories to be
able to do them. How much did you feel doing
these stories, feel for the family the victims, and also
frustrated law enforcement and prosecutors with these stories.
Speaker 3 (43:34):
Well, the first thing is I felt for the families
because interview in interviewing them, it struck me that they
relied on our judicial system, on the detectives, on the
courts to make it right, and they didn't, and so
(43:55):
many of these things, these cases, the predators went on
for months, years and were never caught, and the families
along the way suffered, and they really suffered. I mean,
I got to tell you there was there's one mother
and I still speak with her periodically the last five years.
(44:18):
She has cried on the phone to me, Dan, I
got to tell you at least five times about the
case and how she feels and her loss and the
emptiness in her heart and in the family. And you know,
you've got to be a piece of wood, not a
(44:39):
human being not to feel for those people. You really
have to, yes, And you know, it's an interesting thing.
The first year I was into that case with that mother,
I sent a Mother's Day greeting to her via email
(45:00):
and we were having my girlfriend and were having breakfast,
and I got a response from her and she was crying,
and she was crying. She she you know, my daughter's gone.
Nobody wants to believe it, blah blah blah blah. And
(45:21):
you know I own and that's my only daughter. And
I mean, this went on and on and on and
it's mother's day.
Speaker 2 (45:29):
You know.
Speaker 3 (45:31):
All I could do is listen, and I tried my
best to console her, but it's hard to do. I mean,
you can't take away from the facts of what happened.
All he could do, and all I did do was
tell her that, you know, life will go on and
you'll find some comfort as the days go by, the
years go by, and please never lose my phone number.
(45:54):
And she hasn't. She calls me all the time.
Speaker 2 (45:58):
Do you have a certain responsibility, don't you?
Speaker 3 (46:01):
Yes, you do, and you can't ignore that. You absolutely
cannot ignore that. I will tell you an instance. So,
as I mentioned earlier, my backyard is the golf course.
So one day I was on the putting green and
my cell phone I forgot to turn it off. Usually
I will always turn it off playing golf. My cell
(46:23):
phone rang as one of the other people in the
forsome was putting his ball into the hole, and I
answered it and it was this woman crying. She says,
today would have been my daughter's birthday. Oh my god.
I didn't know what to say, Nan, I really didn't,
(46:48):
you know, And I excused myself and I said, you know,
I'll forfeit this hole, blah blah blah blah, and I
stepped to the side and I talked to her for
a few minutes. But what could I say to lighten
the load? There was really nothing.
Speaker 2 (47:02):
Yeah, it's a testament too that there are a lot
of stories where victims are emboldened, they become activists, they
go on to careers even though they've been victimized, or
families of victims go on with their lives. But not
all victims go on, do.
Speaker 3 (47:21):
They No, absolutely not, absolutely not. Well, anyway, this particular victim,
she was really brutalized in the desert and she managed
to survive, and they caught the guy. And in the trial,
(47:42):
the guy's defense attorney asks her, what are you doing today?
He was trying to get her to say nothing, right,
I've been hurt, and I don't know how he was
planning on using that to his benefit, but that's what
he did. And her response was, guess what, I went
back to college. Guess what I got my degree, Guess
(48:06):
what I just got engaged two months ago. Guess what
we bought a house. Guess what I'm going to have
a baby. And the judge just smiled and said, good
for you.
Speaker 2 (48:21):
Yeah, admitst that there are the impact statements that trial,
heartbreaking statements by families affected forever, but also that the
families I always sympathize with the families that have to
go not only once often, but with the pellet decisions,
(48:44):
have to go to trial more than once. And at
that trial things like autopsy photos, crime scene photos blown
up on huge screens, brought to the attention of the
jury while family members are in the seats.
Speaker 3 (49:02):
I know this mother, I referred to. She in the trial,
they showed autopsy pictures of her daughter and how she
was brutalized. And the woman had not seen those pictures,
and the defend excuse me. The prosecution insisted on showing
(49:22):
them to in the court proceeding, and the judge allowed it.
She couldn't believe what her daughter looked like. And I've
seen the pictures, and I'm going to tell you what
dan I would have if that had happened to my relative,
he wouldn't be walking and talking today.
Speaker 2 (49:44):
I want to thank you so much for coming on,
Dennis Carson, for coming on and talking about your new
incredible book, Every Killer Leaves a Trace, The fatal mistakes
that finally exposed America's most Elusive Killers. For those that
might want to find out more about this book and
your other work, can you tell us about any social
media website that you have.
Speaker 3 (50:06):
Yeah, I do have a Facebook page and it is
simply called Dennis Carson. Your listeners can get a copy
of this book on Amazon. It's available as kindle, paperback,
and hardcover and it was just released this last week.
Speaker 2 (50:22):
That's fantastic. Thank you so much, Dennis Carson. Every Killer
leaves a trace, the fatal mistakes that finally exposed America's
most elusive killers. It's been a fascinating interview. Thank you
so much for this and have yourself a good night.
Speaker 3 (50:39):
Thank you and so much. Jan I appreciate you too.
Speaker 2 (50:42):
Thank you.
You are now listening to True Murder, the most shocking
killers in true crime history and the authors that have
written about them. Gasey, Bundy, Dahmer, The Nightstalker VTK Every
week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and
infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with your host,
(00:30):
journalist and author Dan Zufanski.
Speaker 2 (00:39):
Good Evening. They blended in, they raised families, held steady jobs,
and hid in plain sight. But behind the mask of normalcy,
they were monsters responsible for decades of terror, pain and death.
Every Killer Leads a Trace is a chilling now of
(01:00):
nonfiction thriller that exposes moments that led to the shocking,
unmasking and ultimate capture of twenty six of America's most
elusive killers. From accidental slips to cutting edge forensic breakthroughs,
each chapter reveals how justice caught up with the murderers
who thought they'd never be found. Meticulously researched and drawn
(01:24):
from court records, autopsy reports, FBI case files, and first
hand interviews with investigators and victims families, this book is
a haunting journey through deception, violence, and the relentless pursuit
of truth. These are not just stories of murder. They
are blueprints of how justice, though often delayed, is never
(01:47):
truly denied. They got away with murder until they didn't.
The book they were featuring this evening is Every Killer
Leaves a Trace, The fatal mistakes that fire expose the
most elusive killers, with my special guest author Dennis Carson.
(02:07):
Welcome to the program, and thank you very much for
this interview. Dennis Carson, You're very welcome and thank you
for having me. Thank you so much. Now, this book,
Every Killer Leads a Trace, The fatal mistakes that finally
exposed America's most elusive killers. You're right that Every Killer
(02:29):
Leads a Trace offers a compelling exploration of the darkest
recesses of human behavior. Chronicling twenty six chilling true crime
cases from modern history and is a tribute to the
pursuit of justice, the resilience of survivors, and the relentless
efforts of those who seek truth in the aftermath of horror.
(02:54):
Each chapter dissects the final fatal act that ultimately exposed
the murder on unraveled their ability to hide in plain sight.
Tell us why you wrote this book. What are the
origins of this book?
Speaker 3 (03:12):
Well, that's a really important question. I wrote Every Killer
Leaves a Trace because I wanted to challenge the myth
of the so called perfect killer. You know, for years
we've seen this narrative that some murders are just too clever,
too elusive to ever be caught. But when you look closely,
every single one of them made a mistake. And that
mistake is whether it's a trace of DNA, a careless decision,
(03:37):
or a small clue investigators refused to look at. That's
finally what took them down. But you know, actually, Dan,
there's another side to it. The book isn't just about
crime scenes and evidence. It's about the families and the
investigators who refused silence, mothers who wouldn't let their children's
(03:58):
stories be buried, to refuse to give up even when
the case went cold. You know, in interviewing all these people,
it was their persistence, combined with the rise of forensic science,
that ultimately forced the truth to come into the light.
But clearly, I didn't write this book to glorify killers.
I mean, there's not a chance in heck. I wrote
(04:19):
it to honor the victims, to shine a light on resilience,
and to remind readers that justice is never really out
of reach. The dead do speak if we're willing to
listen to them.
Speaker 2 (04:32):
Now, give us a little bit of your background before
you endeavored to do this project. I know that you
had a book under a pen name that you had
written previously. But also you speak about this team that
you have of specialists. Can you tell us about this
team that supports you in your writing.
Speaker 3 (04:53):
Unfortunately, this gentleman has died about two years ago, and
that was the La County Corn to the Stars, Ed Winter.
He handled cases like Whitney Houston, Michael Jackson, Kobe Bryant,
Nipsey Hustle, blah blah blah blah. But like I said, unfortunately,
my friend Ed did die two years ago. In any event,
(05:14):
to ensure the autestent, authenticity and depth of my narrative,
I work with Dottie Owens. She's the renowned former Idaho coroner.
She retired about eight months ago, and Lina Evans, Alabama's
current coroner. I love Lina because she's known for her
on wavering pursuit of justice. I mean, she's a real
(05:36):
dog in and you know, don't let go kind of person.
I also work with a judge in New York who
was a former district attorney, and another two other members
of the team are Wesley Jennings, one of the world's
leading criminologists, and doctor Ashley Wellman. She's a certified forensic
(05:57):
death investigator. So Dan, that's basically the team. And as
we move on. As I moved on in each case,
I did interview different investigators, corners and the like, and
families for that matter.
Speaker 2 (06:14):
Now tell us the criteria for better for lack of
a better term, or the reasons for including all of
these twenty six stories, And with that, could you give
us the contents of this incredible collection.
Speaker 3 (06:30):
I looked at it that, Okay, some of these people
are household names. Ted Bundy as an example, you know,
we know about him, but so many of them are
just not household names. And I felt that the general
public interested in true crime should know about all these
other people, and I picked twenty six. You'll notice that
(06:52):
twenty five of the twenty six are male. There's only
one female, and I only included her because she was
the strongest of all the female killers. Believe it or not,
So would you like me to run down some of
these twenty six cases, yes please, okay sure. Starting off
with Rodney Alcohola. He's known as the Dating Game Killer.
(07:17):
He was a smooth talking predator. He did his murders
behind a smile on national television, so the girls, the women,
you know, felt comfortable with him. I mean, this clown
was on TV. He had to be okay. Then there's
Angel Risendies. He's known as the Railroad Killer. He was
(07:38):
a drifter by nature. He moved between the US and Mexico,
blending into the shadows as he rode the trains. He
broke into homes along the tracks, turning ordinary houses into
scenes of unspeakable violence. I mean it was pretty dog
on bad. John Wacey Gasey the killer clown. This guy
(07:59):
really gets you. He's a seemingly upstanding neighbor whose playful
clown prosanna earned him trust at children's parties and community events.
He blended right in. Everybody loved him. He was the clown,
you know. But in the end, he abducted and lured
countless men I don't remember, it was something like twenty
(08:21):
into his home and brutally assaulted them and raped them,
and the bodies were found in his addict for a
smell by one of the neighbors discovered. Then there's John
Albert Gardner, the third, known as the San Diego rapist
and killer. He was a convicted sex offender. He roamed
(08:43):
suburban neighborhoods hunting for vulnerable young girls. His predatory violence
culminated with the murders of Chelsea King and Amber du Bois.
And they were a few years apart, those two murders,
but they came together when the body of Amber was
found and then the evidence tied back to Chelsea. So
(09:04):
that's how both of them came to be. Cameron Hooker,
this guy's known as the Girl in the Box kidnapper.
He was quite a family man. He had a secret
life of brutality. And this is a case that Dan,
I'm going to give you a little bit more on
because it struck me as totally obnoxious. He kept colleens
(09:27):
Stan confined in a coffin like box beneath his bed
for several years. And how he got Colleen was she
was on her way from northern California to attend a
wedding here in southern California, and she was hitchhiking and
(09:47):
she was stopped by Cameron hooker, and she looked in
the car. He offered her ride. She looked in the
car and she saw a woman who was Cameron's wife,
holding a little baby in her arms. So Colleen thought,
what the heck looks kosher. I'm going to go with it.
So he kept her in this box for three years
(10:07):
some people some reports claim it was just under four years,
but basically three years. It all came to a head
when his wife decided she was going to come clean
and no longer support his doings. This case struck me
because of the gross brutality of one particular event. Here's
(10:29):
what happened, many many times. He would invite his goofball
friends over to his house to watch him abuse a Colleen.
One particular evening, he stripped her. He put her in
a chair, tied her down, spread her legs. He warmed
up some turkey gravy, and he poured it into her legs,
(10:50):
into her vagina. He had his dog lick the gravy.
I don't know if that's appropriate to include in this interview,
but I just wanted to tell you why that case
struck me so hard.
Speaker 2 (11:05):
What else did you determine from this absolutely deplorable disgusting case.
What else is it an example of in your mind?
Speaker 3 (11:16):
Well, I guess what it really comes down to is
that he went unnoticed, undetected for god knows how many years.
I mean, there's reports. I found reports telling me that
it was three years. Some say seven years. I don't know.
I mean, I can't put my finger on an exact
amount of time. But it was many, many years. And
(11:37):
the neighbors didn't think anything of him. Nobody thought anything
of him. He blended right in with society. He was
a member of the country club, blah blah blah blah blah.
But yet there he is, this incredibly terrible human being.
Speaker 2 (11:53):
It isn't extraordinary that the only way anyone finds out
is because the previously abused wife bonded with Colleen rather
than her own husband, more so than her own husband,
leading to a complete I will say, change of heart. Yes.
Speaker 3 (12:18):
So what she did, to be specific for your audience,
is that she let Colleen out of the box and
she took her to a neighbor, and the neighbor thought
something was wrong because she could see all these people
coming and going, you know, for years, and she never
saw anybody except and the members of the family other
(12:39):
than you know, him and his wife. And she wondered
what happened that all these people came and went, but
yet there's no other members of the family. So when
Colleen escaped, she knocked on this woman's door and together
they went to the police.
Speaker 2 (12:55):
Yes, an extraordinary story, really is.
Speaker 3 (12:58):
It's sad. I mean, wow, think about that scene that
I just told you about, whoa Hello.
Speaker 2 (13:06):
Well, there's so much more to that story as well,
because part of the captivity included a psychological twist in
terms of not only are you in a coffin underneath
a bed, but you believe that you are a sex slave,
and that if you are to escape, then this corporation,
(13:27):
the syndicate, would kill your in her entire family.
Speaker 3 (13:31):
That's exactly right. He Cameron hounded that into her head
for years, and she believed it. In fact, there was
a period of time that she begged if she could
go see her parents, and he agreed, and she had
a visit with her parents, but he told her, you
open your mouth about anything that's going on, and when
(13:52):
we get back home, I will kill you.
Speaker 2 (13:54):
Period. Let's use this as an opportunity to stop to
hear the messages. You say that this book examines also
the rise of intinerant killers, killers who use mobility as
a weapon, and how law enforcement's growing ability to detect
(14:14):
and connect across jurisdiction has finally turned the tide. Can
you give us an example of a story in this
book which demonstrates some of these critical issues.
Speaker 3 (14:30):
Probably Tommy Lynne sells the Coast to Coast Killer. Yeah,
I would say so that because what happened with him
is the cops got wind of what he was doing
and they finally managed to make a connection with crimes
that had happened, victims that were found dead and et cetera,
(14:51):
and they tied it back to him. He had a
staggering body count. He was one of the most horrifying
nomadic killers. I guess that's the best way of putting it.
Speaker 2 (15:04):
You include Adam Leroy Lane talking about mobile killers, and
this is what you titled the Highway Killer. This is
a fascinating story because of the intersection again of fate
to stay, fluke of nature and the serial killer was
intercepted in someone's home by the parents. Can you tell
(15:27):
us a little bit about this story, but most importantly,
what it demonstrates and illustrates with this story.
Speaker 3 (15:36):
Yes, so, how the story worked out is that Lane
as a highway killer. He went from city to city,
state to state, and he stumbled upon a home and
the back door was unlocked, and it was unlocked because
the daughter of the family. She had left the door
(15:58):
unlocked because she thought her her boyfriend and maybe had
forgotten the key and was coming in late, so she
left the door unlocked. He came in, he attacked the family.
He brutally assaulted the father, and it ended up that
between the father excuse, between the mother and the daughter,
(16:19):
they managed to nail the guy down. I just have
no way of saying it to you, but this guy
was an animal in the way he brutally assaulted everybody.
And he was a big guy. I mean, this wasn't
some you know, one hundred and ten pound weekling. He
was a big boy. And the father had a hard
time holding him down that the mother had to participate
(16:41):
in holding him down, but they did manage to do it,
and they did nail him.
Speaker 2 (16:47):
It's a very vivid scene when you have this smaller
man with this bigger killer. But this smaller man is
determined to protect his family and his daughter specifically, and
he's got this guy in a headlock filled the police
outcome in that's right.
Speaker 3 (17:03):
Yeah, an amazing story.
Speaker 2 (17:06):
What were the most prevalent themes do you think that
were contained in these twenty six stories? Oh? Yeah.
Speaker 3 (17:13):
David Parker Ray the toy box killer. He was a
sadistic predator. He took a sound proof trailer in New
Mexico desert and he turned it into a chamber of horrors.
He lured women into his so called toy box, where
(17:33):
they were subjected to unspeakable horrors that defied comprehension for years.
This went on for years, I mean, his hidden world
of cruelty went unnoticed and I can't tell you. I
think it was like five to eight years. And his
toy box, there are pictures online that your listeners can
(17:56):
can go Google search. It was an amazing contraption, this
toy box. And he was able to hang the victims,
shock treatments, all kinds of things in this quote unquote
toy box.
Speaker 2 (18:13):
What surprised you the most while researching these stories? Which
story or what surprised you the most?
Speaker 3 (18:22):
I guess, Dan, that's a tough one because each case
in the book carries its own kind of shock. I
guess if I had to pick, I'd say Israel Keys
really stood out to me because he wasn't just a killer.
He was methodical in the way that he almost that
was almost chilling. You know, I guess you realized he
buried kill kits across the country. You know, he had guns, ropes,
(18:46):
blah blah blah, so he could pick a state at random,
dig up one of the kill kits, and commit a
murder without leaving a trace of planning behind. Despite all
of that planning, he did did make mistakes. He used
the victims debit card, talk about stupid, left the digital footprint,
and from there investigators were able to trace his trail.
(19:07):
It's a perfect example of what the book is about.
Even the most disciplined, elusive predator eventually reveals himself one
way or the other. I guess if I had to
mention a second case, it would be Ted Bundy, because
he crafted an image of being intelligent, charming, even trustworthy
(19:29):
to some extent. He was a law student and appeared
to be from the outside world well put together. That
facade allowed him to lure victims right from college campuses.
That was both fascinating and terrifying how rapidly his mask
started to crack. One of his victims escaped by the
(19:50):
way and provided a police with a detailed description. Authorities
later identified his car and they found hairs and fibers
inside that that linked directly to the woman that he
had murdered. You know, for someone who considered himself so clever,
it was simple traceable evidence then nailed them.
Speaker 2 (20:12):
You include a story that you titled the Amazon Review Killer,
particularly not lesser known story, but an incredible story. Nevertheless,
this is a todd coal hip, and this is a wealthy,
successful real estate agent with about one hundred acre estate.
(20:33):
And this is more recent cases when you talk about
Ted Bundy or Israel Keys. A lot of these lesser
known cases that you include in this book are more recent.
This one's twenty and sixteen, and a story and trial
evolve afterwards, so very very recent incredible crimes and killers.
(20:54):
Tell us a little bit about this Amazon review killer
and what this story straits.
Speaker 3 (21:01):
Here's the thing with this guy. He after every kill
that he performed, he would post on Amazon. As an example,
this knife is the best dug on knife for slicing
a throat this bag is perfect for stuffing a body
(21:21):
into and dumping it into a lake. I mean, that's
how he got caught.
Speaker 2 (21:27):
We also the correspondence, and again you write in this
book that advances in forensic technology, but also in things
like detecting phone locations through pings on towers, and also
just the recovery data recovery of text messages which are
(21:49):
incriminating and damning and provide crucial evidence to investigators. So
in this particular case, investigators were able to look at
previous his text and then be able to get a
search warrant. That's correct.
Speaker 3 (22:05):
Yeah, he made His big mistake was going on Amazon.
That was the mistake.
Speaker 2 (22:12):
What you read about, though, is this extraordinary case is
that this murderous person could have been stopped at least
he was recognized or at least be recognized. This person
had moved to Germany with his parents, with his father specifically,
(22:33):
and committed crimes in Germany at that time. Because of
his age, he was not given a lengthy term. He
was given a six year reformatory sentence rather than the
tenure minimum that he would have faced as this juvenile
in Germany. From that if he would have been stopped.
(22:54):
If he would have been imprisoned for life, none of
this rest of this story we'd be reading right now.
Speaker 3 (23:00):
That's absolutely true, And there is no explanation that I
can find anywhere of why his sentence was that light.
Speaker 2 (23:12):
Well, it seems like I know from many jurisdictions outside
of the US that there is a difference in manslaughter
and murder and the criteria for manslaughter versus murder, so
that possibly would be a reason for the lenient sentencing.
(23:33):
But you also say that because he was a juvenile
he received a lighter sentence.
Speaker 3 (23:40):
That's also true. But you know, I don't know how
your listeners feel about a murderer, but to me, a murderer,
whether he's eighteen years old or seventy eight years old,
he's still a murderer and needs to be dealt with
that way.
Speaker 2 (23:58):
Well that I think you would get a lot of
people to agree with that, And that is a contentious
issue in so many American states, is what exactly is
that age that you would give someone a life sentence
with no possibility of parole. So there are various states
where certainly people of eighteen or less would be given
(24:23):
sentences that were in that sort of range murder, first
degree murder, second degree murder, but given a life sentence
with no possibility of parole. So I believe many jurisdictions Canada,
Germany to UK many countries have maximum sentences that do
not include no parole eligibility whatsoever, actual life, actual life sentences.
(24:50):
You have a story entitled Tagged and This Khalil Wheeler Weaver.
This is a fascinating story with some complex issues at heart.
Can you tell us a little bit about Tagged? Yeah?
Speaker 3 (25:08):
He he basically weaponized social media to identify and lure
of vulnerable women. He used in online interactions to gain
their trust and their comfort level, and then he set
deadly traps where he brutally murdered them and across all
(25:31):
of New Jersey. His crimes exposed a dark intersection in
my humble opinion of digital anonminity and real world violence,
which showed how easily technology could be twisted into a
pool of violence.
Speaker 2 (25:50):
Also, the issue that comes in this story dramatically is
that when a woman is this Tiffany Taylor is attacked,
she goes to police with evidence, with damning evidence, and
the police turn her away and dismiss her claims. Completely.
Speaker 3 (26:12):
That's correct.
Speaker 2 (26:13):
So this story doesn't get a resolve. The killer is
not apprehended until the community sympathizes with a victim who
is not a sex worker. Can you tell us about
this dramatic difference in how police and society treat victims
of crime.
Speaker 3 (26:35):
Well, from what I have learned writing this book is
that if there's an obvious appearance level of a woman
being a sex worker, some cops will discount her testimony
of what she claims happened. I don't believe that's the
(26:59):
right thing to do. It's back to what I said before.
A killer is a killer regardless of the clothes he
wears or how old he or she may be, and
that's really a problem in our society.
Speaker 2 (27:12):
In my opinion, this story is fascinating for readers to
discover because there really are people that are looking out
for their family member and they take action. And what
they do is that they go to social media and
they try to set up this person, to get this
(27:34):
person to reveal himself. It's very fascinating this effort that
this family puts towards seeking justice for themselves and their
family member. That's right.
Speaker 3 (27:47):
The family played a very important role and it worked.
Speaker 2 (27:52):
That Jesus has an opportunity to stop to hear these
messages in all of these case I know it must
have been hard doing that this original investigation and research.
Was there any case that affected you personally? Yeah?
Speaker 3 (28:15):
What really stays with me isn't just the killers, it's
the families. Because reading about the investigation is one thing,
but you know, hearing how the family fought for answers,
how they lived with that uncertainty, and then how justice
finally arrived, it's impossible not to feel the weight of that.
(28:37):
These are not just crime stories, they're human stories. You know,
behind every headline there's a daughter, a sister, a friend
whose life was taken and families who carry that grief forever.
I mean, they can't get rid of that grief. It's
there forever. And for me, that's what makes this work meaningful.
It's about giving those voices space, not just they killers.
(29:01):
And that's really important to me. So if you ask
me which case really affected me the most, it would
probably Bundy, because behind his infamous reputation and mythological image,
there was a real young woman who lost her real
young women plural, who lost their lives. Bundy projected this
(29:23):
aura of charm intelligence, successfully deceiving a lot of women
for god knows how long. But what the most important
haunting thing to know is how he targeted his students.
They were women with bright futures. They trusted him during
what was seemingly normal everyday moments. He invited him for
(29:45):
a drink out to dinner. Bundy is a class act
by himself. In so far as serial killers.
Speaker 2 (29:54):
You read about a lesser known sterial killer in chapter sixteen,
International serial killer Harold David Hallman, the third. This is
very interesting. Again a more recent case December fourth, twenty twenty.
This is very interesting in that the perpetrator decided to
(30:19):
pick on We talk about sex workers, we talk about
people that matter less in society. Families not always support of.
This is a different type of vulnerability that this perpetrator
decided to take advantage of, didn't he. Yes, that's right.
(30:41):
He was looking at women. He would stop a woman
and analyze her, whether it was at a restaurant, bus stop, whatever,
and say I.
Speaker 3 (30:52):
Could do her. And he just had this instantaneous picture
in his mind that she was his next victim. And
that's what he did. And I mean he did it internationally,
like you said, international serial killer, United States and abroad.
So he was really a piece of work.
Speaker 2 (31:15):
It's interesting that this there's correspondence. She had spoken to
her friend, This Erica Jeen Schultz, twenty six year old,
she had met someone online and she had shared that
information with a friend. So police were able to see
that there was this correspondence with Harold David Hallman. They
(31:37):
didn't get to him right away, but they were able
to track his movements because his phone was found. And
so as I mentioned this developments in being able to
use this new type of digital evidence to be able
to crack and to also convict a serial killer like
(31:59):
David Hallman.
Speaker 3 (32:00):
The third well, you know, talk about cereal excuse me,
cellular that was one of the elements and pieces of
evidence in the Idaho murders.
Speaker 2 (32:11):
Give us some examples of some of the dramatic mistakes
that were made by some of these killers that even
in your research, seemed to be so unique that you
included them in this book.
Speaker 3 (32:26):
You know, I think some of it is just back
to what we were just talking a couple seconds ago.
It's about the advantages in technology in forensic science. As
I mentioned, earlier, my good friend, the late Ed Winter,
we talked about at length what the La County Corner
(32:48):
was able to put together through advancements in forensic science.
I guess let me elaborate a little bit. When Ed
first joined the LA County Corner's office, God knows, I
guess that was ten fifteen years earlier, that science wasn't
to the point where it is today, and that science
(33:12):
has helped did help him immensely in solving some of
these cases. And so some of these cases are stupid. Dan,
I'm going to digress for just a second and tell
you about a case that I did not write about
that involved in. Is that okay, absolutely okay, this might
bring a smile to your face. So here's the scene.
(33:35):
So this given day, I was supposed to have lunch
at Philipe's French Tip sandwich place, very famous in downtown
LA and I was supposed to have lunch with d
that day. So, as the story goes, he was in
his office alone early that morning, very unusual that nobody
(33:58):
was there to answer the phone but him. He picked
up the phone and this gentleman identified himself and he said,
my name is and I'll just use the first name David,
and I'm a chef here in Los Angeles, and I
had an argument with my wife and I cut her
(34:20):
up into pieces, a lot of pieces, and I have
been boiling her in the large vats that I have
in my kitchen, and I boiled her for her gaudy
parts for four days. As I'm talking to you, I'm
eating her arm.
Speaker 2 (34:39):
Wow.
Speaker 3 (34:40):
Okay, So now I'm going to fast forward to Felipe's
and Ed walking in the door and couldn't wait to
tell me the story. Okay. So when he finished, I
looked at him with a tiny smile on my face
and I said, you didn't happen to ask him if
he made a side dish to go with the arm?
Speaker 2 (35:00):
Wow?
Speaker 3 (35:01):
Yeah, yeah, I mean these people are straight. And you
know what his answer was, Yes?
Speaker 2 (35:10):
What are some of the most dramatic mistakes? Are the
most common mistakes that these killers make? In this research
that you've done for this book.
Speaker 3 (35:22):
I guess two things surprised me the most. First, the
arrogance of the killers. So many of them believe they
were untouchable. That's a case closed. You're never going to
get me. Second, the persistence of the families and the
investigators that I spoke with, some mothers, sisters. Detectives spent
(35:43):
decades fighting for answers, But it was their resilience and technology,
not the killers violence that define their stories. The persistence
is what finally forced the truth into light, and that
really truck me. You know, it was the truth that
brought them down.
Speaker 2 (36:05):
The truth brought them down. But there are cases in
this book as well where dogged law enforcement that never
gave up, family members that never gave up. That's right,
victims that utilized We didn't talk about some of the
efforts that some of the people did that would have
(36:27):
ended up being dead. But they had a plan to
convince that killer that they should be let go, that
they wouldn't be able to inform on them to police, right,
did anything, employed any technique and tactic to escape the
(36:47):
one person was again closing up to the killer, at
least in his mind, but at the same time was
double jointed and was plotting her escape. She did get
into this room, locked the door because she was able
to free herself from those handcuffs, so she had the
wherewithal and the state of mind to be able to
(37:11):
think that I'm going to be a survivor. I am
going to survive and I'm going to do whatever it
takes to escape. And she did.
Speaker 3 (37:18):
That's right. You know, you got to look at the
at the victims. And I said it a few minutes ago.
One of the things that the thing that really got
me more than the killers themselves was the victims and
the victims' families, how they participated in providing you know, support,
evidence and et cetera. It was just amazing, it really was.
(37:43):
And you know, I can't tell you how many detectives
in my career I've interviewed. I've lost count, but some
of them are were very forthcoming and others were don't
bother me. I'm a detective, and you know that doesn't work.
What works is cooperation between law enforcement, the judicial system,
(38:07):
and the families. And if you don't have that, you're
not going to get anywhere.
Speaker 2 (38:14):
But Jesus has an opportunity to stop to hear these
messages you talk about that these killers make clear mistakes
because many of them, many many of these stories feature
a killer that believes he's invincible, and he believes he's
invincible because he's getting away with murders. You have one
(38:36):
where the person again a disgusting, deplorable murder, but the
next day he's back at it. There's many killers that
don't spend much time. They are dedicated to their murderous activities.
So you really have a lot of cases where, especially
in the past, where jurisdictions didn't communicate the state of
(38:59):
technology was primitive, and so these people felt emboldened. Ramarrez,
Richard Ramirez felt like he had the luck of Satan
behind him because doors were unlocked. Many of these victim's
mistakes were that they were unlocked doors.
Speaker 3 (39:19):
That's right, that's right, and innocent, innocent people, just girls
walking down the street that one of these predators would
see and go, oh, there's my next Mark. Honest to god, Dan,
this book really took a lot out of me. I'm
going to digress on this book for just a moment.
My next book is going to really shock you because
(39:47):
it's proof positive that the judicial system failed. Case closed,
and this.
Speaker 2 (39:58):
Is a case involving the death penalty.
Speaker 3 (40:02):
Okay, I have to be vague obviously, because you know
the book is not out yet, but it involves it's
two cases. One was a woman that was found and
murdered and the corner ruled it as accidental death. The
(40:28):
second case involves a gentleman who was left handed, could
not hold anything in his left hand. He was found
in his recliner with a bullet hole to the left
side of his head, which means that he would have
had to hold the gun in his right hand, put
(40:51):
it around the back of his head and shoot himself.
And let's assume he was even able to do that,
the gun would have flown out into the room. But
the pictures that the detectives have of the crime scene
shows him in his recliner with that gun in his lap. Wow, impossible,
(41:17):
And that same corner ruled that accidental death.
Speaker 2 (41:23):
Incredible.
Speaker 3 (41:24):
Yeah, I think you're going to like this next book.
It will set you aside, It really will, because you're
going to say, how the hell did this happen?
Speaker 2 (41:35):
And when is that slated for release? Any kind of
rough idea?
Speaker 3 (41:39):
Sometime next year I'm about I'm saying, maybe two months
away from handing it in to the publisher. I have
spent three years researching the evidence and talking to God
knows how many people, interviewing God knows how many detectives corners.
(42:01):
And by the way, let me give you a tidbit
to this, that same corner medical I should be technical,
that same medical examiner has come forward saying that that
person lied because they were pressured.
Speaker 2 (42:22):
To do so. Wow, we look forward to that.
Speaker 3 (42:27):
Yeah, it's it's pretty damn heavy. I gotta tell you
my girlfriend, who I think I've mentioned before, you know,
maybe on the phone or whatever. Tell you we've been
together for almost forty years, and she sees so many
of these things across my desk, and she hears the
zoom calls and the zoom calls involving these two cases.
(42:47):
She walked out of the office and started crying.
Speaker 2 (42:51):
Yeah, blame her. The you cover no dispute some of
the worst killers in history, they were serial killers in history,
and their deplorable actions. In researching this book, again we
talk about how it affected you personally and how far
(43:14):
you went into the investigation into these stories to be
able to do them. How much did you feel doing
these stories, feel for the family the victims, and also
frustrated law enforcement and prosecutors with these stories.
Speaker 3 (43:34):
Well, the first thing is I felt for the families
because interview in interviewing them, it struck me that they
relied on our judicial system, on the detectives, on the
courts to make it right, and they didn't, and so
(43:55):
many of these things, these cases, the predators went on
for months, years and were never caught, and the families
along the way suffered, and they really suffered. I mean,
I got to tell you there was there's one mother
and I still speak with her periodically the last five years.
(44:18):
She has cried on the phone to me, Dan, I
got to tell you at least five times about the
case and how she feels and her loss and the
emptiness in her heart and in the family. And you know,
you've got to be a piece of wood, not a
(44:39):
human being not to feel for those people. You really
have to, yes, And you know, it's an interesting thing.
The first year I was into that case with that mother,
I sent a Mother's Day greeting to her via email
(45:00):
and we were having my girlfriend and were having breakfast,
and I got a response from her and she was crying,
and she was crying. She she you know, my daughter's gone.
Nobody wants to believe it, blah blah blah blah. And
(45:21):
you know I own and that's my only daughter. And
I mean, this went on and on and on and
it's mother's day.
Speaker 2 (45:29):
You know.
Speaker 3 (45:31):
All I could do is listen, and I tried my
best to console her, but it's hard to do. I mean,
you can't take away from the facts of what happened.
All he could do, and all I did do was
tell her that, you know, life will go on and
you'll find some comfort as the days go by, the
years go by, and please never lose my phone number.
(45:54):
And she hasn't. She calls me all the time.
Speaker 2 (45:58):
Do you have a certain responsibility, don't you?
Speaker 3 (46:01):
Yes, you do, and you can't ignore that. You absolutely
cannot ignore that. I will tell you an instance. So,
as I mentioned earlier, my backyard is the golf course.
So one day I was on the putting green and
my cell phone I forgot to turn it off. Usually
I will always turn it off playing golf. My cell
(46:23):
phone rang as one of the other people in the
forsome was putting his ball into the hole, and I
answered it and it was this woman crying. She says,
today would have been my daughter's birthday. Oh my god.
I didn't know what to say, Nan, I really didn't,
(46:48):
you know, And I excused myself and I said, you know,
I'll forfeit this hole, blah blah blah blah, and I
stepped to the side and I talked to her for
a few minutes. But what could I say to lighten
the load? There was really nothing.
Speaker 2 (47:02):
Yeah, it's a testament too that there are a lot
of stories where victims are emboldened, they become activists, they
go on to careers even though they've been victimized, or
families of victims go on with their lives. But not
all victims go on, do.
Speaker 3 (47:21):
They No, absolutely not, absolutely not. Well, anyway, this particular victim,
she was really brutalized in the desert and she managed
to survive, and they caught the guy. And in the trial,
(47:42):
the guy's defense attorney asks her, what are you doing today?
He was trying to get her to say nothing, right,
I've been hurt, and I don't know how he was
planning on using that to his benefit, but that's what
he did. And her response was, guess what, I went
back to college. Guess what I got my degree, Guess
(48:06):
what I just got engaged two months ago. Guess what
we bought a house. Guess what I'm going to have
a baby. And the judge just smiled and said, good
for you.
Speaker 2 (48:21):
Yeah, admitst that there are the impact statements that trial,
heartbreaking statements by families affected forever, but also that the
families I always sympathize with the families that have to
go not only once often, but with the pellet decisions,
(48:44):
have to go to trial more than once. And at
that trial things like autopsy photos, crime scene photos blown
up on huge screens, brought to the attention of the
jury while family members are in the seats.
Speaker 3 (49:02):
I know this mother, I referred to. She in the trial,
they showed autopsy pictures of her daughter and how she
was brutalized. And the woman had not seen those pictures,
and the defend excuse me. The prosecution insisted on showing
(49:22):
them to in the court proceeding, and the judge allowed it.
She couldn't believe what her daughter looked like. And I've
seen the pictures, and I'm going to tell you what
dan I would have if that had happened to my relative,
he wouldn't be walking and talking today.
Speaker 2 (49:44):
I want to thank you so much for coming on,
Dennis Carson, for coming on and talking about your new
incredible book, Every Killer Leaves a Trace, The fatal mistakes
that finally exposed America's most Elusive Killers. For those that
might want to find out more about this book and
your other work, can you tell us about any social
media website that you have.
Speaker 3 (50:06):
Yeah, I do have a Facebook page and it is
simply called Dennis Carson. Your listeners can get a copy
of this book on Amazon. It's available as kindle, paperback,
and hardcover and it was just released this last week.
Speaker 2 (50:22):
That's fantastic. Thank you so much, Dennis Carson. Every Killer
leaves a trace, the fatal mistakes that finally exposed America's
most elusive killers. It's been a fascinating interview. Thank you
so much for this and have yourself a good night.
Speaker 3 (50:39):
Thank you and so much. Jan I appreciate you too.
Speaker 2 (50:42):
Thank you.
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