April 21, 2025 • 75 mins
L.A. Coroner is a gripping true crime biography of Dr. Thomas Noguchi, the controversial “Coroner to the Stars,” who performed the autopsies of Marilyn Monroe, Robert F. Kennedy, Sharon Tate, Natalie Wood, and hundreds of other notable personalities. Choi, an award-winning historian and professor, deftly blends Los Angeles history, death investigation and forensic science, and Asian American history in a feat of exquisite storytelling. Anne Soon Choi discusses the incredible role Nogucci played in these famous death investigations and historic murder trials.L.A. Coroner is the first-ever biography of Dr. Thomas Noguchi, the Chief Medical Examiner–Coroner of Los Angeles County from 1967 to 1982. Throughout his illustrious career, Dr. Noguchi conducted the official autopsies of some of the most high-profile figures of his time. His elaborate press conferences, which often generated more controversy than they did answers, catapulted him into the public eye.Noguchi was also the inspiration for the popular 1970s–80s television drama Quincy, M.E., starring Jack Klugman. Featuring never-before-published details about Noguchi’s most controversial cases, L.A. Coroner is a meticulously researched biography of a complex man, set against the backdrop of the social and racial politics of the 1960s and 1970s and Hollywood celebrity culture. Joining me to discuss L.A. Coroner: Thomas Noguchi and Death in Hollywood—Anne Soon Choi Follow and comment on Facebook-TRUE MURDER: The Most Shocking Killers in True Crime History https://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100064697978510Check out TRUE MURDER PODCAST @ truemurderpodcast.com
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Speaker 1 (00:07):
You are now listening to True Murder, the most shocking
killers in true crime history and the authors that have
written about them. Gaesy, Bundy Dahmer, The Nightstalker VTK Every
week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and
infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with your
(00:29):
host journalist and author Dan Zufanski, Good Evening.
Speaker 2 (00:41):
La Coroner is a gripping true crime biography of doctor
Thomas Nagucci, the controversial coroner to the stars who perform
the autopsies of Marilyn Monroe, Robert F. Kennedy, Natalie Wood,
and hundreds of other notable personalities. An award winning historian
and professor, deafly blends Los Angeles history, death investigation and
(01:06):
forensic science, and Asian American history in a feat of
exquisite storytelling. La Coroner is the first ever biography of
doctor Thomas Nogucci, the Chief Medical Examiner coroner of Los
Angeles County from nineteen sixty seven to nineteen eighty two.
(01:28):
Throughout his illustrious career, doctor Naguci conducted the official autopsies
of some of the most high profile figures of his time.
His elaborate press conferences which often generated more controversy than
they did answers, catapulted him into the public eye. Nogucci
was also the inspiration for the popular nineteen seventies eighties
(01:51):
television drama Quincy Mme starring Jack Klugman, featuring never before
published details about Naguci's most controversial cases. La Coroner is
a meticulously researched biography of a complex man set against
the backdrop of the social and racial politics of the
(02:12):
sixties and seventies and Hollywood celebrity culture. The book that
were featuring this evening is La Coroner, Thomas Negucci and
Death in Hollywood with my special guest historian, professor, and
author and Soon Choi. Welcome to the program, and thank
(02:33):
you very much for this interview and Soon Choi, Oh,
thank you for having me, and congratulations on this incredible book,
La Coroner. Oh.
Speaker 3 (02:44):
Thanks, it's very exciting that it's coming out on the
twenty second.
Speaker 2 (02:49):
Absolutely. Now, you write in the introduction that you were
introduced to Thomas Negucci and his career through the conspiracy
theories swirling for decades around Merril Monroe and Robert F. Kennedy.
He had an autopsy them and many other celebrities. You're
right that this book is not about celebrity death, however,
(03:11):
so tell us what this book is about and how
you came to be involved.
Speaker 3 (03:17):
So that's partially true. I had found Thomas Dagucci had
written a book called Corner, which was a memoir of
his time in the La Corner's office, and it was
published in the early eighties, and I, in the late nineties,
(03:37):
had found a copy of his book in the dollar
bin in the Strand bookstore, and they had these big
in New York City, had these big bins outside, and
I had found a copy of his book and it
had a very graphic cover on it. But what really
struck me was that here was clearly someone who was
(04:02):
in his time famous himself. Right, he's a celebrity Corner
and that, and he was Asian American, and it was
someone I had never heard of. And I am a
mystery to crime buff and I was like, wow, who
is this? And I picked it up and went to
some cafe somewhere, had a cup of coffee and I
(04:24):
was just reading and couldn't put it down. And it
really right. I had known about all the conspiracies surrounding
you know Robert and John Kennedy and also Marilyn Monroe,
and I was really familiar with those, but I had
never heard of Thomas Legucci, and so that kind of
stuck with me, and I hung on to the book.
(04:45):
And subsequent from the time that I had picked up
the book, I had moved several times, and I had
lived overseas and moved all over the US and always
took that book with me, and at various times I
would try you know, I'm a historian, I'm an academic,
and at various times I would pick the project up, thinking, oh,
(05:06):
you know, maybe I should do something with this, and
just you know, never really quite had the time. Until
a little bit before the pandemic. I started thinking, well,
I wonder if there's enough to do an article. And
then indeed there was enough material to do the article.
But one, maybe the only silver lining of the pandemic
(05:30):
was that I had the time to sit and write
the article. Partly, you know, I live in Los Angeles,
and because of the pandemic, I had stopped commuting to
work and was working from home. And by not commuting,
I was saving myself two and a half hours a day,
and so I had this new chunk of time to
(05:54):
do some writing, and the article sort of unfolded from there.
And I found really interesting was that many of the
things I needed, the archival materials, plus you know, everything
else I needed, the people to interview. It was all
here in plain sight. And one thing just sort of
(06:16):
led to another. And here's the book.
Speaker 2 (06:22):
You write that your essay the Japanese American Citizens League,
LA Politics and Thomas Nogucci case. This is what this
book is based on. In you won a twenty twenty
one prize for Best Essay from the Historical Society of
Southern California. So let's talk about Thomas Noguchi. He was
(06:42):
educated in Japan. Tell us about his background and when
he immigrated to Southern California in the conditions therein he.
Speaker 3 (06:51):
Is a gifted student and he simultaneously pursues a law
degree in a medical degree in Japan. His education is
interrupted by the war and World War two, and in
the aftermath in the fifties. You know, but what he's
really sort of dazzled by in the post war occupation
(07:15):
of Japan by the US, is that he's dazzled by
American science and and he wants to go. He wants
to leave Japan for the US because he thinks this
is the place where he will get the most cutting
age scientific training in medicine in particular. And then so
(07:36):
he decides he's going to go to the US. He
sends out hundreds of letters looking for an internship, and
only one hospital responds. In one university affiliated hospital, Orange
County General Hospital, which is a public hospital in southern
(07:56):
California in Orange County and tied to Lomolinda University, accepts him.
And then a sight unseen, no interview. This is the
nineteen fifties. He takes a huge leap of faith and
winds up in southern California. It's interesting hit for him,
(08:17):
I think is right. There's a sizeable Japanese American community here,
particularly the children of Japanese immigrants who had migrated, you know,
in the early part of the twentieth century and had settled,
and so it is largely second generation. And so here's
(08:41):
Thomas Naguchi. He's part of this new wave of immigration
called the Shinise, meaning new Japanese immigrants that come after
the war. That includes students, it includes war brides, and
so but he settles right in Los Angeles, and it
is a culture shock, not only being in the US,
(09:01):
but also even with you know, his contemporaries Japanese Americans
in southern California and so but this, you know, so
basically what he does is he starts his medical training
all over. He doesn't have a strong grasp of English yet.
And I think one of the big themes that really
(09:26):
stood out for me about Thomas Nagucci was that he
has this incredible capacity to reinvent himself in really difficult
moments and it's rather astonishing the way he does this
throughout his career.
Speaker 2 (09:45):
In Los Angeles was the only exception that the entire
country adopted the medical examiners system.
Speaker 3 (09:55):
Yeah, so well of all the major cities and throughout
the what we steadily see after World War two is
that more and more cities begin to adopt the medical
examiner system that relies on the expertise of trained forensic pathologists,
(10:19):
which is quite different from a corner. A corner can
be a medical examiner and can be a trained pathologist,
but isn't always and in many places and still and
so what we have in the US is sort of
a patchwork of different systems with these two, the medical
(10:41):
examiner and the corner. And the corner oftentimes was appointed
was a political appointee, had no medical training in very
small areas, small towns, the corner and was oftentimes you know,
owned also the local funeral part, and I think what
(11:02):
was a mortician. And what I think is very interesting
is that Thomas and Gucci finds this opportunity in this
shift to this new system in the nineteen fifties, and
you know, the the elected officials in Los Angeles County,
it's the County Board of Supervisors, along with the County
(11:25):
Medical Association, realized that the rapid expansion of the city
after World War Two required that the medical well the
coroner system be modernized, and that was part of the
shift to the to the medical examiner system. But this
is LA and things are very entrenched in LA, and
(11:48):
despite switching to the medical examiner system, it was always
you know, the corner. And it was only in two thousand,
I think twenty three or twenty four that they finally
dropped the corner out of the title of the position
and now it's just the Los Angeles Medical Examiner.
Speaker 2 (12:06):
You take the reader to August fifth, nineteen sixty two
and doctor Thomas Negucci is one of the newest department coroners,
and he knew he had to pay his dues. His
wife was Hasako Nishihara, and she was very critical that
he was working so hard. Anyway, at the office, one day,
(12:27):
his boss named Kurfy, wanted him to conduct an autopsy
of a woman who had died days before. It was
Marilyn Monroe. Tell us about Nogucci's involvement in this incredible case.
Speaker 3 (12:44):
I mean, it's not surprising, right, this is Los Angeles County,
and that the coroner's office would be called in cases
of unexplained death to launch an investigation and also autopsy
famous people. And I think this one was particularly shocking
(13:05):
for any number of reasons, but you know, because Marilyn
Monroe was so famous. And Theodore Curfey the corner at
the time. So he is from New York Long Island,
and he is brought in as the first medical examiner,
and he really begins to consolidate his power, and he
(13:28):
understands how significant, how significant conducting the investigation into Marilyn
Monroe's death is, and so he tasks Nogucci to do
the autopsy. Because Nogucci, even in the very short time
he had been in the LA office, he had proved
(13:52):
himself to be meticulous in the way that he conducted autopsies.
And Theodore Curfey I really believe that he could depend
on Thomas Nagucci to provide sort of the optimal autopsy
that would hold under I think any as the cornerstone
(14:17):
to the rest of the investigation into her death.
Speaker 2 (14:22):
That Jesus has an opportunity to stop to hear these messages.
So tell us about his progress with Marilyn Monroe, what
he discovers, and what he delivers in terms of evidence
and information to the district attorney.
Speaker 3 (14:40):
All of that, you know, has been well documented. You know,
they do a full, an exhaustive autopsy. But what is
unusual is that Theodore Kurfey is very interested in this
process called, you know, the psychological autopsy. This is part
(15:06):
of the post war interest in all things psychological. And
I think that's clearly an outcome of you know, the
trauma of the war and you know, and then also
the more sort of you know, problematic things about you know,
influence average. So all these things are you know, coming
(15:28):
into line after the war and what we see is
that there is an appetite for it as well. And
while there's always been interest in celebrities and examining, right,
that's what tabloid journalism, you know, this is why it
(15:48):
flourished in this time period. About knowing everything about your
favorite star, this kind of takes a ghoulish turn in
the sixties. It's not only you do audiences believe that
they should know everything about a star when they're alive,
but now also the circumstance and everything about their death.
(16:11):
And so it's a combination of both Theodore Curfey and
the LA Corner's Office embracing and expanding their role to
include the psychological component, particularly around suicide, which they suspected
in Marilyn Monroe's case, and also the demand. And I
(16:35):
think what Curfey understood and had a glimmering of in
the early nineteen sixties, Thomas Nagucci really capitalizes on it
and is in terms you know, I oftentimes I call him,
you know, the original influencer he with He is like
(16:59):
it's strained to have a sentence that says that he
is a media savvy corner and his office becomes what
was once sort of a backwater office that no one
knew about or was very much behind the scenes, and
with Monroe's death, you know, gains increasingly a higher profile.
(17:20):
And then so Thomas and Guji conducts this meticulous autopsy.
But you know, and while Theodor Kurfey launches the psychological
autopsy and so they interview friends. They would like to
know the state of mind. And this is very much
in line with the growing interest. Also the two go
(17:46):
hand in hand within sort of investigations around you know,
doing profiles and so trying to you know, gauge right,
like what the state of mind of Marilyn Monroe is.
And so he's involved and as he watches, you know,
he does his work, and he watches this unfold and
(18:09):
he sees, you know, Theodore kurfy at the center of
attention and and I think this is the moment where
he sees how powerful the corner can be. And I
think this stokes his desire to ultimately be the chief
corner in LA but his role. So he does the
(18:32):
autopsy and then their public pressure makes Curfey, even though
he's still in the middle of conducting the autopsy, to
to declare that this was most likely a suicide because
of the pills that were found. And but the where
it goes awry is that after Thomas Agojie conducts the autopsy,
(18:58):
particularly the organ samples and blood, everything disappears. And so
this becomes this kind of origin moment for all the
conspiracies around Monroe's death. And the chief toxicologists at the
(19:18):
time had decided, well, this is a suicide. We have,
you know, evidence of the pills, et cetera, so we're
not going to waste our time having toxological reports done
and when and Nagucci realizes that this could be a
potential problem for him, and he inquires about it, and
(19:39):
then he also realizes his position. Right, he is the
lowest ranking person in the office. You know, he doesn't
have a lot of say over anything. But this does
tie him to marily Moroe in a way that he
had never anticipated. And you know, they're all sorts of
(20:01):
you know, you know, you can look, there's all sorts
of conspiracy theories about what happened because of not doing
these toxic toxicology right labs on her. But to the
degree that Nogucci will say that he's always sort of
(20:22):
worried about this, are they going to accuse him of
her death? And so it casts a really long shadow
over his career in different kinds of ways.
Speaker 2 (20:34):
You're right about the May nineteen sixty six coroner's inquest
regarding Leonard Deadweiler's death at the hands of a police officer,
and you say that that Nogucci suddenly came to life
on the stand. His nervousness eased when he spoke of
forensic science, and he became much more animated when he
(20:57):
discussed the details of the autopsy, and so his role
and his career as a corner to the stars began
at that moment.
Speaker 3 (21:11):
There's a long history of police violence, especially against black
and brown people in Los Angeles, and it's not something
that's gone away, and in particular in the Deadwiler case,
what was very unique about it is that much of
(21:31):
it was adjudicated through what was called a corner's inquest,
which was this kind of quasi legal thing where the
corner office conducted an investigation into the manner of death.
And then with this investigation, it was an opportunity under
(21:54):
oath where evidence and testimony could be collected and then
the district attorney could side whether to press criminal charges
or not. And oftentimes, the what law enforcement liked about
corners in quest that it almost always ruled in favor
(22:15):
of law enforcement, almost no matter what the circumstances are.
And ultimately what happens is that, particularly under Thomas Naguchi,
this will change and the corner's inquest becomes something that,
(22:36):
rather than just being a rubber stamp, oftentimes worked against
the police. And so the Deadweiler is an interesting case
because of that. But also this was the first time
a coroner's inquest was televised, and part of it was
that this happened after the Watts Uprising of nineteen sixty five,
(23:01):
and this is a period of enormous political and social turmoil,
and there was this real fear that the city would
burn again if this case wasn't handled properly. And part
of the push to televise the case was that it
would serve as a pressure valve and to show the
(23:24):
public and particularly the black community, that this was being
taken seriously and this was held in public, and this
was transparent. And also in this particular case, this is
where Thomas Negucci and the now he would become very famous.
(23:46):
Johnny Cochran is at the beginning of his career and
this is where they crossed path And because of that, right,
a lot of what I found really fascinating in doing
the research for LA Corner is that I encounter all
these individuals that would go on to be very famous
(24:07):
in LA before they were famous and so but the
dead Wiler case really demonstrates, I think, to Noguci how
powerful television is and very much we're at the very
beginning of TV journalism. Negucci intuitively realizes that it can
(24:34):
be an important tool in terms of the power of
the corner's office. And then also he liked being on TV.
He liked being quoted on TV, he liked being interviewed.
Speaker 2 (24:48):
And.
Speaker 3 (24:49):
I think this case provided provided some of that and
and so he would he would pursue it, gave him
a taste of the limelight, and he would continue to
pursue it. But at the same time it really demonstrated
to him also the importance of the coroner's office.
Speaker 2 (25:13):
You're right that you call it the fight to become
chief coroner. Kurfey was to retire at seventy years old,
and the Board of Supervisors weren't looking too hard to
find a replacement. Noguchi was worried about his English, but
his wife Husoko urged him to consider being the chief coroner.
(25:34):
Noguchi and his wife didn't have any idea of what
the what was in store. So could we briefly go
through this incredible fight for him to become chief corner
and the obstacles and the discrimination he endured.
Speaker 3 (25:50):
Yeah, and so Kurfy is mandated to retire because of
a county policy that administrative department had had to retire
by age seven. And you know, he's reluctant to retire,
of course, because he enjoys the power he wields as
the corner and he doesn't really talk about a successor.
(26:14):
And in even the most casual of ways, partly because
it was the position in the county, becoming corner relied
on the Civil Service exam, and you know, and it
was a combination of time on the clock, your score
on the Civil Service exam to see where you would land,
and then that would provide you the chance to interview.
(26:38):
And the Civil Service exam was straightforward in the sense
that it really in many ways worked against sort of
what was in place, like in the private sector. You know,
this kind of good old boys network where if you
didn't have those kinds of connections, if you weren't a
(27:00):
white person, that would be very hard to secure employment,
and particularly communities of color in this time period, Mexican Americans,
African Americans, and particularly Japanese Americans fought county employment with
its very clear, transparent hiring salaries, and the civil service
(27:24):
system would be much a much better pathway to middle
class stability than working in the private sector. Because of
these protections. Thomas Nagucci was still you know, he's still
this is nineteen sixty seven, and he is still getting
his bearings and he's not quite sure if he should
(27:46):
go for this job. And his wife, who is you know,
she's unusual for her time. She has a PhD in microbiology,
and she's a person who has her education interrupted. You know,
she was incarcerated in a concentration camp for the duration
of World War two because of the forcible removal of
(28:09):
Japanese Americans from the West Coast. And you know, she
also was never able to find an academic appointment, even
with a PhD in microbiology, most likely because not only
because she was Japanese American, but she was a woman,
and it was very difficult in the post war era
for female scientists, and so and she is, you know,
(28:35):
she is her husband's number one champion. But she also
like burns with this rage about the structures of discrimination
that limit like his, you know, occupational you know, opportunities
as well as her own. And then the community writ
large and so she encourages him, you know, ultimately to applay.
(29:00):
He scores well in the top three. And then what
is very interesting is that once he is in the
top three, and it is a possibility that he could
be appointed by the board of supervisors the County Medical Association,
which is very powerful. It includes UCLA and USC the
(29:20):
University of Southern California. They decided Thomas Negucci was not acceptable,
and they do it in this way by saying he's
too young, he's too inexperience. He's forty at this point,
and they come up with a laundry list of reasons
why he's not qualified. I was particularly struck with the
(29:43):
University of Southern California's medical school director at the time,
who said Thomas Nagucci was unqualified as to be the
county corner because the county corner was also responsible for
training pathologists. You know, they use you know, the Corner's
office as a training site. But he seemed to be
(30:04):
unaware that Thomas Negucci was already teaching at USC, which
was quite glaring to me. But what really undergirds it
is the racism that they could not imagine or even
tolerate someone that looked like Thomas Negucci in the highest
ranking medical position in the county. And so they start
(30:30):
what is essentially a smear campaign, and Thomas Negucci, who
until right this point had been you know, ha had
a pretty quiet life, finds every aspect of his career,
his disposition, his personal life like in the papers, and
(30:51):
he doesn't know what quit to do. But not only
his wife, but the community comes in support of him.
And then what the most important organization that comes to
his support is the Los Angeles County Employee Association, which
comes in full throttle support of Naguchi, not because of
(31:15):
the racism and the discrimination in the case, but more
so because of the fact that they don't want the
civil service system to be undermined, and they knew that
this could potentially be a huge issue because what the
county Medical Association wanted to do was not use the
(31:37):
county civil service list and decide to bring in their
own person using their own networks, and you know, they
brought any number of candidates to Los Angeles. As you know,
the County Board of Supervisors is trying to figure out
what to do. The Japanese American community and others that
(31:59):
come out to criticize this, and then ultimately the Board
of Supervisors step in and then they realized, right, we're
still not that far out two years from the Watts Uprising.
They're thinking that this is so racially polarizing that it
(32:19):
could turn into another major flashpoint in the city. And ultimately,
at the end of the day, then Thomas Negucci gets appointed,
but it is you know, with a very strict six
month probationary period, and when he becomes corner, he's in shock.
He didn't think it was you know, he you know,
(32:42):
you know, literally there were headlines that say, you know,
Thomas Negucci passed over, and you know, and even the
Japanese American community at the time, they're like, you know,
what can we do? This is what it is. And
then in this kind of moment, he gets appointed and
that launches his career as the chief corner.
Speaker 2 (33:02):
Let's use this as an opportunity to stop to hear
these messages. Now, Thomas Negucci is has the job that
he always wanted, chief corner of La County, and so
he always wanted this job as chief corner, and then
he was in that position, and you write about it.
(33:23):
Where Negucci was when he heard about actually was watching
TV with his wife the Democratic presidential primary and then
right after that he got a call regarding Robert F. Kennedy.
Tell us about this most famous of Thomas Negucci's case
and his involvement.
Speaker 3 (33:43):
Thomas Nagucci liked the rest of the country was in
absolute shock, but he also recognized that if Senator Kennedy
were to die, then he would be responsible for the
death investigation. And recognizing this, he draws on his network
(34:06):
of forensic pathologists across the country, and he has given
the advice that he cannot seed control if things go
very badly. He could not see control of the autopsy
and the investigation because already, because of what had happened
(34:28):
in the aftermath of John F. Kennedy's death and all
the rumor and conjecture and conspiracy that had generated. And
so while he is, you know, in shock, he goes
into he begins to make preparations, and I think the
(34:49):
single most important thing that he did was to make
the decision, if something should happen, not to transport rfks
By to the corner suite in the Hall of Justice,
which would have you know, it's like three four miles away,
but instead to do the autopsy in the hospital, because
(35:15):
again he wasn't going to release control over the investigation.
And so there are all these things that are working
against him. Even the district attorney doesn't want to you know,
the district attorney had pointed out, well, it's very obvious,
what had you know, after you know, after Robert Kennedy dies,
(35:40):
seems that it's very clear what has happened, you know,
we know, so there doesn't need to be an autopsy,
and the family didn't want an autopsy, and so Thomas
Ninguji convinces the family. He also brings in a team
of observers from from Washington to to make sure right
(36:04):
that he has witnesses. And then he also brings in
not only does he have his own staff, but he
brings in other prominent medical examiners to come in a system,
and he conducts a six hour autopsy and it is
routinely referred to as the perfect autopsy, right, and and
(36:28):
it sets the bar for what an autopsy should be.
And and because the autopsy for John Kennedy had been
so botched because it had not been conducted by a
trained forensic pathologist, et cetera. And so he he this
(36:50):
is high stakes, it's high pressure. He does he does
the autopsy and and then I think this is the
this is the definitive of men like moment in his career.
And this I think after this in many ways, he
(37:11):
this defines his national and international reputation. And this is
what he thinks will cement right and make all the
conjectures about his ability, his qualifications. He thought all that
would go away after after the autopsy, particularly of of RFK.
(37:32):
And but but that is that is not the case.
But by doing Robert Kennedy's autopsy and the connection of
the Kennedys, both John and and Robert Kennedy to Marilyn Monroe,
he gets swept up again into the conspiracy theories not
only tied to Marilyn Monroe, but you know, particularly around,
(37:56):
you know, was there a second shooter, and and he
gets tied up in the Sir Hansen case, and so
he is embroiled in this for the rest of his career.
But the autopsy itself, I mean, people still talk about
it as the perfect autopsy.
Speaker 2 (38:17):
You're also right, as you mentioned, he testifies as the
last person at trial, as a witness at the Sir
Handser hand trial. M And there's a lot that he
learns from that appearance and being involved in this case
and what he liked about being in that position.
Speaker 3 (38:42):
Yeah, And so as he testifies and he becomes you know,
in all the you know, the the legal things that
happen right the case against her answer, and it becomes
clear that by virtue of autopsying, Robert Kennedy, that he
(39:07):
becomes like central to the proceedings and he really understands
how the power of the coroner's office in this particular case.
And it also comes at a time when he, you know,
(39:27):
the the County Medical Association you know, did not sort
of retreat gently into the night after he was appointed.
You know, they are maneuvering along with people within the
county to have him, you know, removed, and so that
(39:48):
is going on, and I think being involved in the
subsequent trial of Sirensurant, it's a stabilizing force for him
in the sense that, no matter what is happening, you know,
in terms of people trying to undermine him, remove him
from his position as corner, his forensic work stands, and
(40:12):
you know, his forensic work. Because of this trial, you know,
he becomes internationally known, he becomes really the expert, the
leading voice of forensic science in the United States. And
then also but he also knows. He it's very clear
(40:33):
he recognizes that the conspiracy theories around all these cases
being linked to it, you know, also makes him, you know,
to a certain extent famous and in the way that,
especially later in his career, he would capitalize on this.
Speaker 2 (40:58):
What were the things that he was accused of two
get him fired.
Speaker 3 (41:06):
So they accused him of, you know, the most egregious
for him is that they accused him of drug use,
They accused him of, you know, poor management. They accused him,
for example, of wishing for Kennedy's death. And it's an
(41:27):
exhaustive list. They accused him of cursing in the office.
I mean, it's an exhaustive list of things and there
is the chief county administrative officer, for a lot of reasons,
decides that he's going to go after Nagucchi. And then
(41:47):
there's a lot of and Nagucci has a mole in
his office that is tied to Lynn Hollinger, and these
two men conspire and then draw you know, people in
his office into this campaign to have him removed. And
(42:09):
ultimately Lynn Hollinger tells Nagucci, well, you know, you're gonna
have to resign otherwise I'm going to publicly release all
these charges against you. And Nagucci is so shocked in
the moment, and he's so I think, you know, but
the potential of the embarrassment and the shame not for
(42:31):
himself but also for the greater community, he resigns, especially
you know, after talking, you know, taking counsel from some
of his friends, Like he resigns, and because he would
have the same salary and he would be assigned to
another hospital. But then in particular, his wife steps in
and you know, says absolutely not, like you know, you
(42:54):
have to fight this, and then another friend of his says,
you know, you must fight this, and then slowly the
Japanese American community starts to mobilize behind Nagucci because they
understand very clearly what this is. He's not being removed
because of any you know, professional not because he's a
(43:17):
poor foreigner, right or you know he's bad at his job.
I mean, he just conducted what people are calling the
perfect autopsy. It's clearly racially motivated, and you know, they're
they're attempting to move to remove Thomas Negucci based on this,
and then they get again the county Civil Service Organization
(43:41):
gets involved in so there and the Japanese American community
also aligns with the Mexican Mexican American and black community
who also are completely outraged because you know, the civil
service jobs are supposed to be fair. They were supposed
(44:02):
to provide, particularly non white folks, the opportunity for middle
class stability, and here here were the powers that it
was this For many it was like, yeah, this, this
was supposed to be a place, you know, free from
this kind of racial discrimination. And they saw it happening
(44:24):
here and then mobilized. So it's a remarkable story of
political mobilization of ordinary people. And then I think it's
really amazing because they used the media in a way
that's really quite amazing. For example, the Japanese American Citizens League,
(44:45):
the community organization that becomes, you know, the number one
champion of you know, Naguchi, and then getting him reinstated.
Also what happens is that he resigns. He says, I'm
not going to resign, so they fire him ultimately, and
then it goes to a civil service commission. And who
knew a civil service commission hearing could be so exciting.
(45:08):
But they get, you know, ten thousand signatures and they
go to the on a scroll, and then they go
to the Board of Supervisors meeting and then they unfurl
this scroll. They get the actor George T. Quay of
Star Trek Fame involved in the case, and so he's
publicly speaking out. They have marches and demonstrations, and they're
(45:33):
visiting political offices and demanding that they do something right.
They're representatives, and these pressures community pressure, political pressure, and ultimately,
because basically these charges were false, that ultimately gets him reinstated.
Speaker 2 (45:54):
Yes, you say, he's reinstated with full back pay. And
he was considered the consummate underdog who had outwitted the government,
and you right, he was not about to let anyone
forget it. Let's use this as an opportunity to stop
to hear these messages. Let's talk about a very important
(46:15):
case that Thomas Negucci was involved in the Manson family
and Sharon Tate's murder and autopsy.
Speaker 3 (46:24):
Mm hmm, yeah. I think, like a lot of violent
crime in the post war era, this one, this particular
case is really frightening in Los Angeles because it takes
a very long time to find out who killed Sharon Tate,
who murdered Sharon Tate and her friends, and then the
(46:46):
other murders that were tied to the Latianca murders, and
so in this time right there, like you know, people
call it, right you know, writers and you know, people
who look at the sixties, you know, call it really
the end of you know, people call it the end
of the summer of love. And I'm not sure if
(47:08):
there ever was a summer of love, but either way
that it is shocking, and it is violent. People are
afraid and and in all this when we ultimately get
you know, people are horrified and frightened because young women
are involved, and young women are killers, and it's in
(47:32):
many ways unfathomable to people and largely the case itself.
You know, the much of the evidence was considered circumstantial.
You know, it's because also you know, the the perpetrators
(47:53):
of the crime, many of them were very young women,
and you know, testimonies, interviews, you know, it was not
always clear how that they were going to convict Manson
in this But what is the most important thing is
the forensic evidence and interpretations of this case point out
(48:16):
over and over that the forensic evidence was exhaustive and
that Thomas Negucci's testimony during during the trial that detailed
detailed the violence of the crime, and also the forensic
(48:41):
information that clearly linked you know, they demonstrate what kind
of knife, right, how this happened, and step by step
really was central to having Manson convicted. And this really
(49:02):
highlighted the importance of forensic evidence and forensic science in
many ways, right, Like people are quite conversant now with
forensic science. You know, people talk about it. You know,
people talk about DNA fingerprints, evidence, you know, and all
this knowledge primarily through right the TV franchise CSI and
(49:25):
everything else that it launched. But I don't think people
realize that in many ways, you wouldn't have this kind
of I don't know, this abundance of this kind of
you know, death investigation, forensic, true crime without Thomas Nagucci,
and he expertly shows this in the Manson case, and
(49:50):
I just find it really sort of fascinating that he
was so central to this. But then much of that
importance is, you know, disappears from the narrative, from the
historical narrative. You know, they talk about you know, the
district attorney, right, and they talk about, you know, all
these other things, but rarely do people really talk about
(50:13):
the the forensic and the expert testimony that Naguchi provides.
Speaker 2 (50:21):
His involvement in this case, you write, makes him a
national celebrity and really corner to the stars.
Speaker 3 (50:31):
Yeah it does.
Speaker 2 (50:32):
Yeah, you write about the involvement in Patty Hurst and
the SLA Army and Naguchi, what his involvement was in
this historic case.
Speaker 3 (50:46):
The Patty Hurst is another case that just captivates national
you know, the attention of people across the US. It's
a media spectacle, you know, Patty Hurst, you know, the
the air right to the Hurst fortune is transformed into
(51:10):
this right is caught up in in sort of the
politics of the sixties and you know is reborn as
Tanya the gun wielding bank robbing. This is what this
is not how nice white women like, right, This was
not supposed to be there sort of life trajectory. And
(51:34):
then what happens is that as this hunt is on
looking for Patty Hurst like, it becomes a national obsession.
And once they wind up in LA and the police determine,
the determines that they're in LA, and particularly in South LA,
(51:56):
the bombing of the house and the police assault in
the house, the fires, et cetera. And that's where Thomas
Lagucci gets involved as the autopsy after this conflagration happens.
This is where he missteps publicly. I think in a
way that that signals something. And for me when I
(52:21):
was researching this part of the book is that by
this time, you know, he is really comfortable in being
the corners to the start, like only in America can
you become a celebrity by being celebrity adjacent. In this
particular way, he missteps and he strays from the forensic
(52:46):
science to make conjectures about you know, what had happened
to the leader of the SLA And ultimately he's wrong
and contradicts his own forensic evidence. And and and I
(53:06):
think this he pays a high cost for it by
straying away from from the science. And part of it
is because for so long the media coverage of this
kind of goes quiet because there isn't any you know,
developments in the case. And so he decides to conduct
(53:28):
a psychological autopsy in a reenactment, and he brings reporters
to him to the site, and you know, and I
think this is where things right go off the rails
for him. And and what's interesting is that he says
that the leader think commits suicide and and he you know,
(53:54):
documents all the reasons why he thinks that suicide, when
in fact, it turns out it was not suicide at all,
but he had diag most likely from an LAPD bullet.
And so because by saying it was suicide like it
would make the SLA martyrs in this this really undermines
(54:18):
his credibility.
Speaker 2 (54:22):
You're right, that controversy continues, and with other cases like
the Ron Settle case and the parents involved and his
encounter again with Johnny Cochrane.
Speaker 3 (54:35):
And so Ron Settles is a football player. He is
a young black man in who lives, you know, in
this part of Los Angeles County that includes Long Beach
and Carson in this particular place called Signal Hill, which
is this strange little city that is in the middle
(54:55):
of Long Beach, so Long Beach, the city surrounds it,
and it had long been known for its racist police force,
and it was a place where Ronnie Settles, you know,
met his death at the hands of a police officer
who was clearly racist. And particularly this is where we
(55:17):
see the first sort of national coverage around the use
of the police choke hold, right and which will like
continue to be debated its use right even even to today,
even despite being banned and so at various points. And
so what happens here in the Settles case is that
(55:42):
Nagucci is facing all sorts of you know, challenges in
the Corner's office, you know, he is the office is
almost always underfunded, The deaths, unexplained deaths are skyrocketing that
require autopsies, and in the office is in a great
(56:02):
deal of disarray. And part of it is due to
the fact that Naguchi also is involved more increasingly more
with with high profile national cases and you know, other
kinds of work in addition to what he was doing
in the corner's office. But this case in particular becomes
(56:24):
a flashpoint because of the way Ron Settles dies and
you know there they accuse him of drug use. They
paint him in a way that is very predictable for
the black community and outrageous at the same time. And
(56:46):
he was a football star. He you know, the fact
that you know is essentially what happens, right, what starts
this unfortunate and terrible set of ends is you know,
he's driving all black and and so this unfolds, and
what comes to light is that he's taken into jail
(57:12):
and he dies. And what the police say, the signal
Hell Police Department says he dies of suicide. And this
is what Initially the corner who did the autopsy was
not Nagucci. Nogucci oversaw the process as the chief corner,
(57:34):
but you know, a junior corner did the autopsy. And
what ultimately comes to light, right, they do say it
supports suicide. And then what happens is then you know,
his family is outraged, and then so they demand corner's inquest,
they demand you know, other investigation, and then Johnny Cochrane
(57:55):
gets involved, and at this point, Johnny cochrane has become,
you know, quite successful. He's not as successful as he's
going to be, you know, in another decade, but he's
a prominent attorney in Los Angeles. But he is is
just so shocked, I think, and taken with this case,
(58:18):
and he gets involved. And then ultimately what happens is
that they learn that the death investigation had largely been
botched by the coroner's office, and this is further exacerbated
by the fact that wanting some of the publicity in
(58:40):
this case, Negucci reenacts the death of Ron Settles and
he goes to the to the cell right where he dies,
and then he re enacts the hanging and discovers that
none of the evidence fits and it's demonstra in its reenactment.
(59:01):
And then they find out that and this will become
the beginning of the end of Thomas and Gucci's career
as the chief corner because an investigative reporter at the
Los Angeles Times starts to ask questions like she wants,
you know, she contacts the mortician who prepared Ron Settle's
(59:24):
body for burial, and he noted that there were bruises
all over his neck, and not only on his neck,
but on his body. He had clearly been beaten, and
this was not something that had, you know, surfaced in
the public. And then also it was found out that
Negucci did a reenactment with a person that in no
(59:47):
way fit any of the parameters of Ron Settle's height
and weight. That was problematic, but most problematically that evidence
was missing. So all of Ron's Mette's close had disappeared
from the time on the day that he died. And
so it was clear for this investigative reporter of that
(01:00:10):
something was not right. And then so she starts to
ask questions and this will be the great unraveling of
Nagucci's career.
Speaker 2 (01:00:22):
Let Jesus as an opportunity to stop to hear these messages.
Now you say, the unraveling of his career begins, but
he's also involved in the Natalie Wood murder case. Just
tell us briefly his involvement in that case.
Speaker 3 (01:00:38):
You have to take one step back from Nataliewood is
actually William Holden's death, which Thomas Negucci also supervises that autopsy.
And what basically unfolds is that Thomas Ingucci his one
commitment was that like the dead, right, he spoke for
(01:01:00):
the dead, but also his work and the work of
forensic science was in service of the living. And so
he he very clearly, you know, pointed out that William Holden,
you know, died because he drank too much. And this
(01:01:21):
was a time, like we're really accustomed to hearing about,
you know, every single detail of a celebrities life, including
you know what they were, you know, do they drink,
do they not drink, do they do drunks? Like you know,
this is something that's very common, but this is not
the case. Even in the early eighties. You know, these
things were considered sort of you know, beyond the boundary
(01:01:46):
of what was acceptable, Like this was private, and Thomas
de Gucci thought it should not be kept private, this
should be public. And so he also does this in
the Natalie Wood case and this right, and people are outraged.
Natalie Wood was a much loved child star who becomes right,
(01:02:07):
you know, an adult star in this period as well,
and ultimately some very famous people. And this is probably
one of the most surprising things. You know, when I
was working in the archives to find a letter on
very heavy this beautiful stationery embossed with the name Frank
Sinatra at the top of the letter.
Speaker 2 (01:02:29):
Wow.
Speaker 3 (01:02:30):
He and you know he and Natalie would have this
long relationship which I will not speculate on here, but
basically that you know, he says that part of the
reason that she drowned is most likely because she was intoxicated.
And you know, Frank Sinatra's outraged. He can delivers the
(01:02:52):
letter to the board of supervisors and you know, this
brings you know, the Screen Actors Guild comes out outraged
and demands accountability from the county. And and what what
Nagucchi discovers in this in this case is that something
(01:03:17):
has changed. The political moment has changed. He no longer
has the same you know, celebrity turns on him and
and I think it was really painful for him for
this to happen. And and because of this, it leads
this combined with the invest right because Natalie Wood happens
(01:03:40):
as the Ron Settles case is unfolding as well, and
so all now he has a lot of media attention,
but not the kind that he wants.
Speaker 2 (01:03:52):
And that journalist from La Times, Laura Becklun, continues with
her battle to try to get Nagucci to resign or
be fired.
Speaker 3 (01:04:02):
Yeah, well, hers, it's not a battle necessarily to get
him to resign and be fired. Is that she just
starts pulling on these threads right as an investigative journalist.
But it is her work that leads to the Board
of supervisors to ultimately a fire in Nagucci. And what
happens is this time around, they're very careful and they
(01:04:26):
even write a memo, an internal memo, that we need
to be really careful here to make sure that none
of this, any of the evidence that we collect can
be deemed racist or that we're targeting him. And so
they build a very very careful case to make sure
(01:04:47):
that they have the grounds to dismiss him based on
mismanagement of his office. So rather than focusing on his
behavior in a particular case, like they're really talking about mismanagement.
And then there's some horrific things, right they you know,
somehow you know, medical waste that is supposed to be
(01:05:10):
disposed of, you know, incinerated, you know, wind up in
a landfill. And there are some really graphic descriptions of
the person who discovers this, and it's traced back to
the coroner's office wait times, you know, for death certificates,
you know, increases exponentially. You know, the bodies of the
(01:05:31):
dead are being robbed, there's cross contamination of evidence, and
in many ways it is you know, Thomas and Gucci
was not a stellar administrator, but at the same time,
he was woefully underfunded and so but I think that
combined with his insistence that the coroner's office maintain its independence,
(01:05:57):
and he was not afraid to speak up and speak
out on things that were unpopular or could be embarrassing
to powerful people.
Speaker 2 (01:06:06):
You know, it.
Speaker 3 (01:06:09):
All fed into this campaign to fire him in the
early eighties.
Speaker 2 (01:06:17):
You say he was suspended with pay ultimately, but it
was very difficult on Naguchi because of the divorce, alimony
and relinquishing some properties, still paying legal bills.
Speaker 3 (01:06:31):
Yeah, you know, it was financially you know, it was
very difficult for him in this time period. And I
think what was hard for him also was that he
did not have the community support in the same way
that he did in the sixties, and a lot of
community members had decided that this wasn't really an issue,
(01:06:53):
this wasn't racial discrimination, but this was and I still
think some racial discrimination factored into his removal is firing
in the eighties, but they pointed out it is really
about his mismanagement and as the investigative, you know, journalism
on the Corner's office unfold. You know, people are really
(01:07:14):
shocked at the state of the Corner's office and you know,
and some of Thomas Negucci's sort of behavior. And so
the community, you know, does not come out in this
the same way as they did in the sixties and
without the support and and also the community is pulled
into other directions. You know, the Japanese American community in
(01:07:39):
this early period is working on the Redress movement for
Japanese incarceration during the war, and so they're doing that
and they they have less time, you know, to to
roll out a campaign and support of Thomas Negucci. And
also by the eighties, he's not like like, you know,
there are other Asian Americas who are in powerful positions
(01:08:02):
in the county and he doesn't have. It wasn't they
didn't have the same kind of urgency as they did
in the sixties to protect the civil service system. So
it was a very very different time.
Speaker 2 (01:08:16):
You say, in June eighty four, there was a hearing
to reverse the demotion. It was refused and eighty six
another appeal was denied and then March eighty seventh ruling
of the District Court of Appeals. With that ruling, Nagucci
accepted defeat. The fighting coroner had done fighting, you.
Speaker 3 (01:08:38):
Right, yeah, yeah. And this is sort of the remarkable
thing about Thomas Nagucci is that I can only imagine,
you know, that it was really difficult. It was really
difficult to lose the job that he wanted so badly
and had for so long. But he vents himself and
(01:09:01):
he ultimately becomes, you know, the chief of pathology at
USC County General Hospital, and he trains, you know, a
generation of pathologists. He returns to doing research full time,
and I think by teaching and doing research it serves
(01:09:24):
his better nature. And ultimately he resigned and that resigns.
But he retires in nineteen ninety nine, and he had
been out of the media spif for a very long time,
and he's just so incredibly gracious, and he talks about
how he loved every single minute of working for the
county despite all the you know, the very difficult things
(01:09:46):
that he faced, and in that moment, like you could
tell that he like the second part of his career
in the county, that he really enjoyed it. He enjoyed
teaching and and again he reinvents himself in this way.
(01:10:06):
And I think, uh, that is is really is really remarkable.
It also probably helped, you know, in terms of his
ego that when he when he did was not reinstated. Uh,
his memoir Corner was on the best sellers list, and
when you know, the decision was made not to read,
(01:10:27):
you know, to reinstate him. He was on a book
tour and then he co authored two mystery novels and
then another you know book about forensic cases, and and
so you know that he has his thriving career as
a writer. And and so I think that also helped
kind of assuage his you know, ego and his feelings too.
(01:10:50):
But and in the end, right, he still does forensic research.
He is you know, he goes to you know, the
friend major you know, forensic conferences, and you know, he
is still standing when most of the folks who were
so adamant that he was unqualified and people who critiqued him,
(01:11:14):
they're now all gone.
Speaker 2 (01:11:18):
And you write too that he reunites ultimately with his
beloved supporter Jsco.
Speaker 1 (01:11:25):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (01:11:26):
They you know, I was just really gratified when I discovered.
You know, I had a hard time finding that information.
I had, you know, heard, you know, sort of secondhand.
'smen said, Oh, they did reunite. They got remarried, and
you know, and after being divorced for so long, they
do remarry and he takes you know, he takes care
(01:11:46):
of her until she dies in twenty fifteen. He's had
a remarkable career.
Speaker 2 (01:11:56):
You write. At the time of this writing, he is
in his late nineties and the majority of the supporters
and political enemies are gone. As you had mentioned, how
old is Thomas Nagucci today?
Speaker 3 (01:12:10):
Ninety eight?
Speaker 2 (01:12:13):
And when was the last time you spoke with him?
Speaker 3 (01:12:16):
So I was really fortunate, and this is a very
random story. I had a very hard time. I really
wanted to interview him for the book. And what had
happened is, you know, I had an email for him
that someone passed on. I wasn't sure if you know,
(01:12:36):
he was receiving the emails. I reached out. You know,
he still has an office at usc A, University of Southing, California,
and so I reached out and reached out never heard,
and so, you know, I'm writing the book and then
I had to have eye surgery earlier in the like
in November of this past year, in twenty four. My
(01:13:00):
husband is sitting there and then he hears the receptionists
call out the name Thomas Negucci and he looks up
and there's Thomas Negucci and and so and he has
his uh foster daughter, like, hey, his his daughter who
is with him? And you know, she comes out and
then and then I come out and then my husband
(01:13:23):
tells Thomas Negucci's here, and I literally just had eye
surgery of a patch over my eye, and right, I'm
just really, you know, not one hundred percent. And then
and then I was like, but oh my gosh, that
is Thomas Dagucci. And then I go and introduce myself
and then pass on my phone number. And then they
invite me to come and have coffee one day and
(01:13:43):
I go, and now I'm sitting It was a surreal moment.
I am sitting in a garden with these beautiful persimon
trees and you know, there are flowers and butterflies. It's
just it's just beautiful and I'm sitting there, you know,
just chatting with Thomas Negucci, and he was gracious and
(01:14:06):
lovely and kind, and you know, there were you know,
unfortunately the book was pretty much done, but I was,
you know, I still have some fact checking questions that
he was just you know, so kind in the answering
and so yeah, like he's.
Speaker 2 (01:14:24):
Remarkable, absolutely, and so is this book about his life
as chief coroner in La County. I want to thank
you so much and soon Choi for coming on and
talking about LA Coroner, Thomas Negucci and death in Hollywood.
Can you tell us for people to want to refer to.
Do you have a website or do any social media? Please?
Speaker 3 (01:14:47):
I do. My author website is a N N E
s O O n C HOI asun choi dot com
and you'll find events, some of the new things that
I'm working on. And then and you can follow me
on Instagram at LA true Crime. I talk on my
(01:15:07):
social media. I also do some things about local LA
true crime, things that I have found and that I'm
interested in. And and it's also you know, my my
author handle, and you know, I promote events there, you know,
and interested in anyone who's interested in true crime.
Speaker 2 (01:15:30):
Absolutely, thank you so much and soon joy La Coroner,
Thomas Negucci and death in Hollywood. Thank you so much
for this interview and you have a great evening and
good night.
Speaker 3 (01:15:42):
Oh thanks for having me, Thank you, good night,
You are now listening to True Murder, the most shocking
killers in true crime history and the authors that have
written about them. Gaesy, Bundy Dahmer, The Nightstalker VTK Every
week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and
infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with your
(00:29):
host journalist and author Dan Zufanski, Good Evening.
Speaker 2 (00:41):
La Coroner is a gripping true crime biography of doctor
Thomas Nagucci, the controversial coroner to the stars who perform
the autopsies of Marilyn Monroe, Robert F. Kennedy, Natalie Wood,
and hundreds of other notable personalities. An award winning historian
and professor, deafly blends Los Angeles history, death investigation and
(01:06):
forensic science, and Asian American history in a feat of
exquisite storytelling. La Coroner is the first ever biography of
doctor Thomas Nogucci, the Chief Medical Examiner coroner of Los
Angeles County from nineteen sixty seven to nineteen eighty two.
(01:28):
Throughout his illustrious career, doctor Naguci conducted the official autopsies
of some of the most high profile figures of his time.
His elaborate press conferences which often generated more controversy than
they did answers, catapulted him into the public eye. Nogucci
was also the inspiration for the popular nineteen seventies eighties
(01:51):
television drama Quincy Mme starring Jack Klugman, featuring never before
published details about Naguci's most controversial cases. La Coroner is
a meticulously researched biography of a complex man set against
the backdrop of the social and racial politics of the
(02:12):
sixties and seventies and Hollywood celebrity culture. The book that
were featuring this evening is La Coroner, Thomas Negucci and
Death in Hollywood with my special guest historian, professor, and
author and Soon Choi. Welcome to the program, and thank
(02:33):
you very much for this interview and Soon Choi, Oh,
thank you for having me, and congratulations on this incredible book,
La Coroner. Oh.
Speaker 3 (02:44):
Thanks, it's very exciting that it's coming out on the
twenty second.
Speaker 2 (02:49):
Absolutely. Now, you write in the introduction that you were
introduced to Thomas Negucci and his career through the conspiracy
theories swirling for decades around Merril Monroe and Robert F. Kennedy.
He had an autopsy them and many other celebrities. You're
right that this book is not about celebrity death, however,
(03:11):
so tell us what this book is about and how
you came to be involved.
Speaker 3 (03:17):
So that's partially true. I had found Thomas Dagucci had
written a book called Corner, which was a memoir of
his time in the La Corner's office, and it was
published in the early eighties, and I, in the late nineties,
(03:37):
had found a copy of his book in the dollar
bin in the Strand bookstore, and they had these big
in New York City, had these big bins outside, and
I had found a copy of his book and it
had a very graphic cover on it. But what really
struck me was that here was clearly someone who was
(04:02):
in his time famous himself. Right, he's a celebrity Corner
and that, and he was Asian American, and it was
someone I had never heard of. And I am a
mystery to crime buff and I was like, wow, who
is this? And I picked it up and went to
some cafe somewhere, had a cup of coffee and I
(04:24):
was just reading and couldn't put it down. And it
really right. I had known about all the conspiracies surrounding
you know Robert and John Kennedy and also Marilyn Monroe,
and I was really familiar with those, but I had
never heard of Thomas Legucci, and so that kind of
stuck with me, and I hung on to the book.
(04:45):
And subsequent from the time that I had picked up
the book, I had moved several times, and I had
lived overseas and moved all over the US and always
took that book with me, and at various times I
would try you know, I'm a historian, I'm an academic,
and at various times I would pick the project up, thinking, oh,
(05:06):
you know, maybe I should do something with this, and
just you know, never really quite had the time. Until
a little bit before the pandemic. I started thinking, well,
I wonder if there's enough to do an article. And
then indeed there was enough material to do the article.
But one, maybe the only silver lining of the pandemic
(05:30):
was that I had the time to sit and write
the article. Partly, you know, I live in Los Angeles,
and because of the pandemic, I had stopped commuting to
work and was working from home. And by not commuting,
I was saving myself two and a half hours a day,
and so I had this new chunk of time to
(05:54):
do some writing, and the article sort of unfolded from there.
And I found really interesting was that many of the
things I needed, the archival materials, plus you know, everything
else I needed, the people to interview. It was all
here in plain sight. And one thing just sort of
(06:16):
led to another. And here's the book.
Speaker 2 (06:22):
You write that your essay the Japanese American Citizens League,
LA Politics and Thomas Nogucci case. This is what this
book is based on. In you won a twenty twenty
one prize for Best Essay from the Historical Society of
Southern California. So let's talk about Thomas Noguchi. He was
(06:42):
educated in Japan. Tell us about his background and when
he immigrated to Southern California in the conditions therein he.
Speaker 3 (06:51):
Is a gifted student and he simultaneously pursues a law
degree in a medical degree in Japan. His education is
interrupted by the war and World War two, and in
the aftermath in the fifties. You know, but what he's
really sort of dazzled by in the post war occupation
(07:15):
of Japan by the US, is that he's dazzled by
American science and and he wants to go. He wants
to leave Japan for the US because he thinks this
is the place where he will get the most cutting
age scientific training in medicine in particular. And then so
(07:36):
he decides he's going to go to the US. He
sends out hundreds of letters looking for an internship, and
only one hospital responds. In one university affiliated hospital, Orange
County General Hospital, which is a public hospital in southern
(07:56):
California in Orange County and tied to Lomolinda University, accepts him.
And then a sight unseen, no interview. This is the
nineteen fifties. He takes a huge leap of faith and
winds up in southern California. It's interesting hit for him,
(08:17):
I think is right. There's a sizeable Japanese American community here,
particularly the children of Japanese immigrants who had migrated, you know,
in the early part of the twentieth century and had settled,
and so it is largely second generation. And so here's
(08:41):
Thomas Naguchi. He's part of this new wave of immigration
called the Shinise, meaning new Japanese immigrants that come after
the war. That includes students, it includes war brides, and
so but he settles right in Los Angeles, and it
is a culture shock, not only being in the US,
(09:01):
but also even with you know, his contemporaries Japanese Americans
in southern California and so but this, you know, so
basically what he does is he starts his medical training
all over. He doesn't have a strong grasp of English yet.
And I think one of the big themes that really
(09:26):
stood out for me about Thomas Nagucci was that he
has this incredible capacity to reinvent himself in really difficult
moments and it's rather astonishing the way he does this
throughout his career.
Speaker 2 (09:45):
In Los Angeles was the only exception that the entire
country adopted the medical examiners system.
Speaker 3 (09:55):
Yeah, so well of all the major cities and throughout
the what we steadily see after World War two is
that more and more cities begin to adopt the medical
examiner system that relies on the expertise of trained forensic pathologists,
(10:19):
which is quite different from a corner. A corner can
be a medical examiner and can be a trained pathologist,
but isn't always and in many places and still and
so what we have in the US is sort of
a patchwork of different systems with these two, the medical
(10:41):
examiner and the corner. And the corner oftentimes was appointed
was a political appointee, had no medical training in very
small areas, small towns, the corner and was oftentimes you know,
owned also the local funeral part, and I think what
(11:02):
was a mortician. And what I think is very interesting
is that Thomas and Gucci finds this opportunity in this
shift to this new system in the nineteen fifties, and
you know, the the elected officials in Los Angeles County,
it's the County Board of Supervisors, along with the County
(11:25):
Medical Association, realized that the rapid expansion of the city
after World War Two required that the medical well the
coroner system be modernized, and that was part of the
shift to the to the medical examiner system. But this
is LA and things are very entrenched in LA, and
(11:48):
despite switching to the medical examiner system, it was always
you know, the corner. And it was only in two thousand,
I think twenty three or twenty four that they finally
dropped the corner out of the title of the position
and now it's just the Los Angeles Medical Examiner.
Speaker 2 (12:06):
You take the reader to August fifth, nineteen sixty two
and doctor Thomas Negucci is one of the newest department coroners,
and he knew he had to pay his dues. His
wife was Hasako Nishihara, and she was very critical that
he was working so hard. Anyway, at the office, one day,
(12:27):
his boss named Kurfy, wanted him to conduct an autopsy
of a woman who had died days before. It was
Marilyn Monroe. Tell us about Nogucci's involvement in this incredible case.
Speaker 3 (12:44):
I mean, it's not surprising, right, this is Los Angeles County,
and that the coroner's office would be called in cases
of unexplained death to launch an investigation and also autopsy
famous people. And I think this one was particularly shocking
(13:05):
for any number of reasons, but you know, because Marilyn
Monroe was so famous. And Theodore Curfey the corner at
the time. So he is from New York Long Island,
and he is brought in as the first medical examiner,
and he really begins to consolidate his power, and he
(13:28):
understands how significant, how significant conducting the investigation into Marilyn
Monroe's death is, and so he tasks Nogucci to do
the autopsy. Because Nogucci, even in the very short time
he had been in the LA office, he had proved
(13:52):
himself to be meticulous in the way that he conducted autopsies.
And Theodore Curfey I really believe that he could depend
on Thomas Nagucci to provide sort of the optimal autopsy
that would hold under I think any as the cornerstone
(14:17):
to the rest of the investigation into her death.
Speaker 2 (14:22):
That Jesus has an opportunity to stop to hear these messages.
So tell us about his progress with Marilyn Monroe, what
he discovers, and what he delivers in terms of evidence
and information to the district attorney.
Speaker 3 (14:40):
All of that, you know, has been well documented. You know,
they do a full, an exhaustive autopsy. But what is
unusual is that Theodore Kurfey is very interested in this
process called, you know, the psychological autopsy. This is part
(15:06):
of the post war interest in all things psychological. And
I think that's clearly an outcome of you know, the
trauma of the war and you know, and then also
the more sort of you know, problematic things about you know,
influence average. So all these things are you know, coming
(15:28):
into line after the war and what we see is
that there is an appetite for it as well. And
while there's always been interest in celebrities and examining, right,
that's what tabloid journalism, you know, this is why it
(15:48):
flourished in this time period. About knowing everything about your
favorite star, this kind of takes a ghoulish turn in
the sixties. It's not only you do audiences believe that
they should know everything about a star when they're alive,
but now also the circumstance and everything about their death.
(16:11):
And so it's a combination of both Theodore Curfey and
the LA Corner's Office embracing and expanding their role to
include the psychological component, particularly around suicide, which they suspected
in Marilyn Monroe's case, and also the demand. And I
(16:35):
think what Curfey understood and had a glimmering of in
the early nineteen sixties, Thomas Nagucci really capitalizes on it
and is in terms you know, I oftentimes I call him,
you know, the original influencer he with He is like
(16:59):
it's strained to have a sentence that says that he
is a media savvy corner and his office becomes what
was once sort of a backwater office that no one
knew about or was very much behind the scenes, and
with Monroe's death, you know, gains increasingly a higher profile.
(17:20):
And then so Thomas and Guji conducts this meticulous autopsy.
But you know, and while Theodor Kurfey launches the psychological
autopsy and so they interview friends. They would like to
know the state of mind. And this is very much
in line with the growing interest. Also the two go
(17:46):
hand in hand within sort of investigations around you know,
doing profiles and so trying to you know, gauge right,
like what the state of mind of Marilyn Monroe is.
And so he's involved and as he watches, you know,
he does his work, and he watches this unfold and
(18:09):
he sees, you know, Theodore kurfy at the center of
attention and and I think this is the moment where
he sees how powerful the corner can be. And I
think this stokes his desire to ultimately be the chief
corner in LA but his role. So he does the
(18:32):
autopsy and then their public pressure makes Curfey, even though
he's still in the middle of conducting the autopsy, to
to declare that this was most likely a suicide because
of the pills that were found. And but the where
it goes awry is that after Thomas Agojie conducts the autopsy,
(18:58):
particularly the organ samples and blood, everything disappears. And so
this becomes this kind of origin moment for all the
conspiracies around Monroe's death. And the chief toxicologists at the
(19:18):
time had decided, well, this is a suicide. We have,
you know, evidence of the pills, et cetera, so we're
not going to waste our time having toxological reports done
and when and Nagucci realizes that this could be a
potential problem for him, and he inquires about it, and
(19:39):
then he also realizes his position. Right, he is the
lowest ranking person in the office. You know, he doesn't
have a lot of say over anything. But this does
tie him to marily Moroe in a way that he
had never anticipated. And you know, they're all sorts of
(20:01):
you know, you know, you can look, there's all sorts
of conspiracy theories about what happened because of not doing
these toxic toxicology right labs on her. But to the
degree that Nogucci will say that he's always sort of
(20:22):
worried about this, are they going to accuse him of
her death? And so it casts a really long shadow
over his career in different kinds of ways.
Speaker 2 (20:34):
You're right about the May nineteen sixty six coroner's inquest
regarding Leonard Deadweiler's death at the hands of a police officer,
and you say that that Nogucci suddenly came to life
on the stand. His nervousness eased when he spoke of
forensic science, and he became much more animated when he
(20:57):
discussed the details of the autopsy, and so his role
and his career as a corner to the stars began
at that moment.
Speaker 3 (21:11):
There's a long history of police violence, especially against black
and brown people in Los Angeles, and it's not something
that's gone away, and in particular in the Deadwiler case,
what was very unique about it is that much of
(21:31):
it was adjudicated through what was called a corner's inquest,
which was this kind of quasi legal thing where the
corner office conducted an investigation into the manner of death.
And then with this investigation, it was an opportunity under
(21:54):
oath where evidence and testimony could be collected and then
the district attorney could side whether to press criminal charges
or not. And oftentimes, the what law enforcement liked about
corners in quest that it almost always ruled in favor
(22:15):
of law enforcement, almost no matter what the circumstances are.
And ultimately what happens is that, particularly under Thomas Naguchi,
this will change and the corner's inquest becomes something that,
(22:36):
rather than just being a rubber stamp, oftentimes worked against
the police. And so the Deadweiler is an interesting case
because of that. But also this was the first time
a coroner's inquest was televised, and part of it was
that this happened after the Watts Uprising of nineteen sixty five,
(23:01):
and this is a period of enormous political and social turmoil,
and there was this real fear that the city would
burn again if this case wasn't handled properly. And part
of the push to televise the case was that it
would serve as a pressure valve and to show the
(23:24):
public and particularly the black community, that this was being
taken seriously and this was held in public, and this
was transparent. And also in this particular case, this is
where Thomas Negucci and the now he would become very famous.
(23:46):
Johnny Cochran is at the beginning of his career and
this is where they crossed path And because of that, right,
a lot of what I found really fascinating in doing
the research for LA Corner is that I encounter all
these individuals that would go on to be very famous
(24:07):
in LA before they were famous and so but the
dead Wiler case really demonstrates, I think, to Noguci how
powerful television is and very much we're at the very
beginning of TV journalism. Negucci intuitively realizes that it can
(24:34):
be an important tool in terms of the power of
the corner's office. And then also he liked being on TV.
He liked being quoted on TV, he liked being interviewed.
Speaker 2 (24:48):
And.
Speaker 3 (24:49):
I think this case provided provided some of that and
and so he would he would pursue it, gave him
a taste of the limelight, and he would continue to
pursue it. But at the same time it really demonstrated
to him also the importance of the coroner's office.
Speaker 2 (25:13):
You're right that you call it the fight to become
chief coroner. Kurfey was to retire at seventy years old,
and the Board of Supervisors weren't looking too hard to
find a replacement. Noguchi was worried about his English, but
his wife Husoko urged him to consider being the chief coroner.
(25:34):
Noguchi and his wife didn't have any idea of what
the what was in store. So could we briefly go
through this incredible fight for him to become chief corner
and the obstacles and the discrimination he endured.
Speaker 3 (25:50):
Yeah, and so Kurfy is mandated to retire because of
a county policy that administrative department had had to retire
by age seven. And you know, he's reluctant to retire,
of course, because he enjoys the power he wields as
the corner and he doesn't really talk about a successor.
(26:14):
And in even the most casual of ways, partly because
it was the position in the county, becoming corner relied
on the Civil Service exam, and you know, and it
was a combination of time on the clock, your score
on the Civil Service exam to see where you would land,
and then that would provide you the chance to interview.
(26:38):
And the Civil Service exam was straightforward in the sense
that it really in many ways worked against sort of
what was in place, like in the private sector. You know,
this kind of good old boys network where if you
didn't have those kinds of connections, if you weren't a
(27:00):
white person, that would be very hard to secure employment,
and particularly communities of color in this time period, Mexican Americans,
African Americans, and particularly Japanese Americans fought county employment with
its very clear, transparent hiring salaries, and the civil service
(27:24):
system would be much a much better pathway to middle
class stability than working in the private sector. Because of
these protections. Thomas Nagucci was still you know, he's still
this is nineteen sixty seven, and he is still getting
his bearings and he's not quite sure if he should
(27:46):
go for this job. And his wife, who is you know,
she's unusual for her time. She has a PhD in microbiology,
and she's a person who has her education interrupted. You know,
she was incarcerated in a concentration camp for the duration
of World War two because of the forcible removal of
(28:09):
Japanese Americans from the West Coast. And you know, she
also was never able to find an academic appointment, even
with a PhD in microbiology, most likely because not only
because she was Japanese American, but she was a woman,
and it was very difficult in the post war era
for female scientists, and so and she is, you know,
(28:35):
she is her husband's number one champion. But she also
like burns with this rage about the structures of discrimination
that limit like his, you know, occupational you know, opportunities
as well as her own. And then the community writ
large and so she encourages him, you know, ultimately to applay.
(29:00):
He scores well in the top three. And then what
is very interesting is that once he is in the
top three, and it is a possibility that he could
be appointed by the board of supervisors the County Medical Association,
which is very powerful. It includes UCLA and USC the
(29:20):
University of Southern California. They decided Thomas Negucci was not acceptable,
and they do it in this way by saying he's
too young, he's too inexperience. He's forty at this point,
and they come up with a laundry list of reasons
why he's not qualified. I was particularly struck with the
(29:43):
University of Southern California's medical school director at the time,
who said Thomas Nagucci was unqualified as to be the
county corner because the county corner was also responsible for
training pathologists. You know, they use you know, the Corner's
office as a training site. But he seemed to be
(30:04):
unaware that Thomas Negucci was already teaching at USC, which
was quite glaring to me. But what really undergirds it
is the racism that they could not imagine or even
tolerate someone that looked like Thomas Negucci in the highest
ranking medical position in the county. And so they start
(30:30):
what is essentially a smear campaign, and Thomas Negucci, who
until right this point had been you know, ha had
a pretty quiet life, finds every aspect of his career,
his disposition, his personal life like in the papers, and
(30:51):
he doesn't know what quit to do. But not only
his wife, but the community comes in support of him.
And then what the most important organization that comes to
his support is the Los Angeles County Employee Association, which
comes in full throttle support of Naguchi, not because of
(31:15):
the racism and the discrimination in the case, but more
so because of the fact that they don't want the
civil service system to be undermined, and they knew that
this could potentially be a huge issue because what the
county Medical Association wanted to do was not use the
(31:37):
county civil service list and decide to bring in their
own person using their own networks, and you know, they
brought any number of candidates to Los Angeles. As you know,
the County Board of Supervisors is trying to figure out
what to do. The Japanese American community and others that
(31:59):
come out to criticize this, and then ultimately the Board
of Supervisors step in and then they realized, right, we're
still not that far out two years from the Watts Uprising.
They're thinking that this is so racially polarizing that it
(32:19):
could turn into another major flashpoint in the city. And ultimately,
at the end of the day, then Thomas Negucci gets appointed,
but it is you know, with a very strict six
month probationary period, and when he becomes corner, he's in shock.
He didn't think it was you know, he you know,
(32:42):
you know, literally there were headlines that say, you know,
Thomas Negucci passed over, and you know, and even the
Japanese American community at the time, they're like, you know,
what can we do? This is what it is. And
then in this kind of moment, he gets appointed and
that launches his career as the chief corner.
Speaker 2 (33:02):
Let's use this as an opportunity to stop to hear
these messages. Now, Thomas Negucci is has the job that
he always wanted, chief corner of La County, and so
he always wanted this job as chief corner, and then
he was in that position, and you write about it.
(33:23):
Where Negucci was when he heard about actually was watching
TV with his wife the Democratic presidential primary and then
right after that he got a call regarding Robert F. Kennedy.
Tell us about this most famous of Thomas Negucci's case
and his involvement.
Speaker 3 (33:43):
Thomas Nagucci liked the rest of the country was in
absolute shock, but he also recognized that if Senator Kennedy
were to die, then he would be responsible for the
death investigation. And recognizing this, he draws on his network
(34:06):
of forensic pathologists across the country, and he has given
the advice that he cannot seed control if things go
very badly. He could not see control of the autopsy
and the investigation because already, because of what had happened
(34:28):
in the aftermath of John F. Kennedy's death and all
the rumor and conjecture and conspiracy that had generated. And
so while he is, you know, in shock, he goes
into he begins to make preparations, and I think the
(34:49):
single most important thing that he did was to make
the decision, if something should happen, not to transport rfks
By to the corner suite in the Hall of Justice,
which would have you know, it's like three four miles away,
but instead to do the autopsy in the hospital, because
(35:15):
again he wasn't going to release control over the investigation.
And so there are all these things that are working
against him. Even the district attorney doesn't want to you know,
the district attorney had pointed out, well, it's very obvious,
what had you know, after you know, after Robert Kennedy dies,
(35:40):
seems that it's very clear what has happened, you know,
we know, so there doesn't need to be an autopsy,
and the family didn't want an autopsy, and so Thomas
Ninguji convinces the family. He also brings in a team
of observers from from Washington to to make sure right
(36:04):
that he has witnesses. And then he also brings in
not only does he have his own staff, but he
brings in other prominent medical examiners to come in a system,
and he conducts a six hour autopsy and it is
routinely referred to as the perfect autopsy, right, and and
(36:28):
it sets the bar for what an autopsy should be.
And and because the autopsy for John Kennedy had been
so botched because it had not been conducted by a
trained forensic pathologist, et cetera. And so he he this
(36:50):
is high stakes, it's high pressure. He does he does
the autopsy and and then I think this is the
this is the definitive of men like moment in his career.
And this I think after this in many ways, he
(37:11):
this defines his national and international reputation. And this is
what he thinks will cement right and make all the
conjectures about his ability, his qualifications. He thought all that
would go away after after the autopsy, particularly of of RFK.
(37:32):
And but but that is that is not the case.
But by doing Robert Kennedy's autopsy and the connection of
the Kennedys, both John and and Robert Kennedy to Marilyn Monroe,
he gets swept up again into the conspiracy theories not
only tied to Marilyn Monroe, but you know, particularly around,
(37:56):
you know, was there a second shooter, and and he
gets tied up in the Sir Hansen case, and so
he is embroiled in this for the rest of his career.
But the autopsy itself, I mean, people still talk about
it as the perfect autopsy.
Speaker 2 (38:17):
You're also right, as you mentioned, he testifies as the
last person at trial, as a witness at the Sir
Handser hand trial. M And there's a lot that he
learns from that appearance and being involved in this case
and what he liked about being in that position.
Speaker 3 (38:42):
Yeah, And so as he testifies and he becomes you know,
in all the you know, the the legal things that
happen right the case against her answer, and it becomes
clear that by virtue of autopsying, Robert Kennedy, that he
(39:07):
becomes like central to the proceedings and he really understands
how the power of the coroner's office in this particular case.
And it also comes at a time when he, you know,
(39:27):
the the County Medical Association you know, did not sort
of retreat gently into the night after he was appointed.
You know, they are maneuvering along with people within the
county to have him, you know, removed, and so that
(39:48):
is going on, and I think being involved in the
subsequent trial of Sirensurant, it's a stabilizing force for him
in the sense that, no matter what is happening, you know,
in terms of people trying to undermine him, remove him
from his position as corner, his forensic work stands, and
(40:12):
you know, his forensic work. Because of this trial, you know,
he becomes internationally known, he becomes really the expert, the
leading voice of forensic science in the United States. And
then also but he also knows. He it's very clear
(40:33):
he recognizes that the conspiracy theories around all these cases
being linked to it, you know, also makes him, you know,
to a certain extent famous and in the way that,
especially later in his career, he would capitalize on this.
Speaker 2 (40:58):
What were the things that he was accused of two
get him fired.
Speaker 3 (41:06):
So they accused him of, you know, the most egregious
for him is that they accused him of drug use,
They accused him of, you know, poor management. They accused him,
for example, of wishing for Kennedy's death. And it's an
(41:27):
exhaustive list. They accused him of cursing in the office.
I mean, it's an exhaustive list of things and there
is the chief county administrative officer, for a lot of reasons,
decides that he's going to go after Nagucchi. And then
(41:47):
there's a lot of and Nagucci has a mole in
his office that is tied to Lynn Hollinger, and these
two men conspire and then draw you know, people in
his office into this campaign to have him removed. And
(42:09):
ultimately Lynn Hollinger tells Nagucci, well, you know, you're gonna
have to resign otherwise I'm going to publicly release all
these charges against you. And Nagucci is so shocked in
the moment, and he's so I think, you know, but
the potential of the embarrassment and the shame not for
(42:31):
himself but also for the greater community, he resigns, especially
you know, after talking, you know, taking counsel from some
of his friends, Like he resigns, and because he would
have the same salary and he would be assigned to
another hospital. But then in particular, his wife steps in
and you know, says absolutely not, like you know, you
(42:54):
have to fight this, and then another friend of his says,
you know, you must fight this, and then slowly the
Japanese American community starts to mobilize behind Nagucci because they
understand very clearly what this is. He's not being removed
because of any you know, professional not because he's a
(43:17):
poor foreigner, right or you know he's bad at his job.
I mean, he just conducted what people are calling the
perfect autopsy. It's clearly racially motivated, and you know, they're
they're attempting to move to remove Thomas Negucci based on this,
and then they get again the county Civil Service Organization
(43:41):
gets involved in so there and the Japanese American community
also aligns with the Mexican Mexican American and black community
who also are completely outraged because you know, the civil
service jobs are supposed to be fair. They were supposed
(44:02):
to provide, particularly non white folks, the opportunity for middle
class stability, and here here were the powers that it
was this For many it was like, yeah, this, this
was supposed to be a place, you know, free from
this kind of racial discrimination. And they saw it happening
(44:24):
here and then mobilized. So it's a remarkable story of
political mobilization of ordinary people. And then I think it's
really amazing because they used the media in a way
that's really quite amazing. For example, the Japanese American Citizens League,
(44:45):
the community organization that becomes, you know, the number one
champion of you know, Naguchi, and then getting him reinstated.
Also what happens is that he resigns. He says, I'm
not going to resign, so they fire him ultimately, and
then it goes to a civil service commission. And who
knew a civil service commission hearing could be so exciting.
(45:08):
But they get, you know, ten thousand signatures and they
go to the on a scroll, and then they go
to the Board of Supervisors meeting and then they unfurl
this scroll. They get the actor George T. Quay of
Star Trek Fame involved in the case, and so he's
publicly speaking out. They have marches and demonstrations, and they're
(45:33):
visiting political offices and demanding that they do something right.
They're representatives, and these pressures community pressure, political pressure, and ultimately,
because basically these charges were false, that ultimately gets him reinstated.
Speaker 2 (45:54):
Yes, you say, he's reinstated with full back pay. And
he was considered the consummate underdog who had outwitted the government,
and you right, he was not about to let anyone
forget it. Let's use this as an opportunity to stop
to hear these messages. Let's talk about a very important
(46:15):
case that Thomas Negucci was involved in the Manson family
and Sharon Tate's murder and autopsy.
Speaker 3 (46:24):
Mm hmm, yeah. I think, like a lot of violent
crime in the post war era, this one, this particular
case is really frightening in Los Angeles because it takes
a very long time to find out who killed Sharon Tate,
who murdered Sharon Tate and her friends, and then the
(46:46):
other murders that were tied to the Latianca murders, and
so in this time right there, like you know, people
call it, right you know, writers and you know, people
who look at the sixties, you know, call it really
the end of you know, people call it the end
of the summer of love. And I'm not sure if
(47:08):
there ever was a summer of love, but either way
that it is shocking, and it is violent. People are
afraid and and in all this when we ultimately get
you know, people are horrified and frightened because young women
are involved, and young women are killers, and it's in
(47:32):
many ways unfathomable to people and largely the case itself.
You know, the much of the evidence was considered circumstantial.
You know, it's because also you know, the the perpetrators
(47:53):
of the crime, many of them were very young women,
and you know, testimonies, interviews, you know, it was not
always clear how that they were going to convict Manson
in this But what is the most important thing is
the forensic evidence and interpretations of this case point out
(48:16):
over and over that the forensic evidence was exhaustive and
that Thomas Negucci's testimony during during the trial that detailed
detailed the violence of the crime, and also the forensic
(48:41):
information that clearly linked you know, they demonstrate what kind
of knife, right, how this happened, and step by step
really was central to having Manson convicted. And this really
(49:02):
highlighted the importance of forensic evidence and forensic science in
many ways, right, Like people are quite conversant now with
forensic science. You know, people talk about it. You know,
people talk about DNA fingerprints, evidence, you know, and all
this knowledge primarily through right the TV franchise CSI and
(49:25):
everything else that it launched. But I don't think people
realize that in many ways, you wouldn't have this kind
of I don't know, this abundance of this kind of
you know, death investigation, forensic, true crime without Thomas Nagucci,
and he expertly shows this in the Manson case, and
(49:50):
I just find it really sort of fascinating that he
was so central to this. But then much of that
importance is, you know, disappears from the narrative, from the
historical narrative. You know, they talk about you know, the
district attorney, right, and they talk about, you know, all
these other things, but rarely do people really talk about
(50:13):
the the forensic and the expert testimony that Naguchi provides.
Speaker 2 (50:21):
His involvement in this case, you write, makes him a
national celebrity and really corner to the stars.
Speaker 3 (50:31):
Yeah it does.
Speaker 2 (50:32):
Yeah, you write about the involvement in Patty Hurst and
the SLA Army and Naguchi, what his involvement was in
this historic case.
Speaker 3 (50:46):
The Patty Hurst is another case that just captivates national
you know, the attention of people across the US. It's
a media spectacle, you know, Patty Hurst, you know, the
the air right to the Hurst fortune is transformed into
(51:10):
this right is caught up in in sort of the
politics of the sixties and you know is reborn as
Tanya the gun wielding bank robbing. This is what this
is not how nice white women like, right, This was
not supposed to be there sort of life trajectory. And
(51:34):
then what happens is that as this hunt is on
looking for Patty Hurst like, it becomes a national obsession.
And once they wind up in LA and the police determine,
the determines that they're in LA, and particularly in South LA,
(51:56):
the bombing of the house and the police assault in
the house, the fires, et cetera. And that's where Thomas
Lagucci gets involved as the autopsy after this conflagration happens.
This is where he missteps publicly. I think in a
way that that signals something. And for me when I
(52:21):
was researching this part of the book is that by
this time, you know, he is really comfortable in being
the corners to the start, like only in America can
you become a celebrity by being celebrity adjacent. In this
particular way, he missteps and he strays from the forensic
(52:46):
science to make conjectures about you know, what had happened
to the leader of the SLA And ultimately he's wrong
and contradicts his own forensic evidence. And and and I
(53:06):
think this he pays a high cost for it by
straying away from from the science. And part of it
is because for so long the media coverage of this
kind of goes quiet because there isn't any you know,
developments in the case. And so he decides to conduct
(53:28):
a psychological autopsy in a reenactment, and he brings reporters
to him to the site, and you know, and I
think this is where things right go off the rails
for him. And and what's interesting is that he says
that the leader think commits suicide and and he you know,
(53:54):
documents all the reasons why he thinks that suicide, when
in fact, it turns out it was not suicide at all,
but he had diag most likely from an LAPD bullet.
And so because by saying it was suicide like it
would make the SLA martyrs in this this really undermines
(54:18):
his credibility.
Speaker 2 (54:22):
You're right, that controversy continues, and with other cases like
the Ron Settle case and the parents involved and his
encounter again with Johnny Cochrane.
Speaker 3 (54:35):
And so Ron Settles is a football player. He is
a young black man in who lives, you know, in
this part of Los Angeles County that includes Long Beach
and Carson in this particular place called Signal Hill, which
is this strange little city that is in the middle
(54:55):
of Long Beach, so Long Beach, the city surrounds it,
and it had long been known for its racist police force,
and it was a place where Ronnie Settles, you know,
met his death at the hands of a police officer
who was clearly racist. And particularly this is where we
(55:17):
see the first sort of national coverage around the use
of the police choke hold, right and which will like
continue to be debated its use right even even to today,
even despite being banned and so at various points. And
so what happens here in the Settles case is that
(55:42):
Nagucci is facing all sorts of you know, challenges in
the Corner's office, you know, he is the office is
almost always underfunded, The deaths, unexplained deaths are skyrocketing that
require autopsies, and in the office is in a great
(56:02):
deal of disarray. And part of it is due to
the fact that Naguchi also is involved more increasingly more
with with high profile national cases and you know, other
kinds of work in addition to what he was doing
in the corner's office. But this case in particular becomes
(56:24):
a flashpoint because of the way Ron Settles dies and
you know there they accuse him of drug use. They
paint him in a way that is very predictable for
the black community and outrageous at the same time. And
(56:46):
he was a football star. He you know, the fact
that you know is essentially what happens, right, what starts
this unfortunate and terrible set of ends is you know,
he's driving all black and and so this unfolds, and
what comes to light is that he's taken into jail
(57:12):
and he dies. And what the police say, the signal
Hell Police Department says he dies of suicide. And this
is what Initially the corner who did the autopsy was
not Nagucci. Nogucci oversaw the process as the chief corner,
(57:34):
but you know, a junior corner did the autopsy. And
what ultimately comes to light, right, they do say it
supports suicide. And then what happens is then you know,
his family is outraged, and then so they demand corner's inquest,
they demand you know, other investigation, and then Johnny Cochrane
(57:55):
gets involved, and at this point, Johnny cochrane has become,
you know, quite successful. He's not as successful as he's
going to be, you know, in another decade, but he's
a prominent attorney in Los Angeles. But he is is
just so shocked, I think, and taken with this case,
(58:18):
and he gets involved. And then ultimately what happens is
that they learn that the death investigation had largely been
botched by the coroner's office, and this is further exacerbated
by the fact that wanting some of the publicity in
(58:40):
this case, Negucci reenacts the death of Ron Settles and
he goes to the to the cell right where he dies,
and then he re enacts the hanging and discovers that
none of the evidence fits and it's demonstra in its reenactment.
(59:01):
And then they find out that and this will become
the beginning of the end of Thomas and Gucci's career
as the chief corner because an investigative reporter at the
Los Angeles Times starts to ask questions like she wants,
you know, she contacts the mortician who prepared Ron Settle's
(59:24):
body for burial, and he noted that there were bruises
all over his neck, and not only on his neck,
but on his body. He had clearly been beaten, and
this was not something that had, you know, surfaced in
the public. And then also it was found out that
Negucci did a reenactment with a person that in no
(59:47):
way fit any of the parameters of Ron Settle's height
and weight. That was problematic, but most problematically that evidence
was missing. So all of Ron's Mette's close had disappeared
from the time on the day that he died. And
so it was clear for this investigative reporter of that
(01:00:10):
something was not right. And then so she starts to
ask questions and this will be the great unraveling of
Nagucci's career.
Speaker 2 (01:00:22):
Let Jesus as an opportunity to stop to hear these messages.
Now you say, the unraveling of his career begins, but
he's also involved in the Natalie Wood murder case. Just
tell us briefly his involvement in that case.
Speaker 3 (01:00:38):
You have to take one step back from Nataliewood is
actually William Holden's death, which Thomas Negucci also supervises that autopsy.
And what basically unfolds is that Thomas Ingucci his one
commitment was that like the dead, right, he spoke for
(01:01:00):
the dead, but also his work and the work of
forensic science was in service of the living. And so
he he very clearly, you know, pointed out that William Holden,
you know, died because he drank too much. And this
(01:01:21):
was a time, like we're really accustomed to hearing about,
you know, every single detail of a celebrities life, including
you know what they were, you know, do they drink,
do they not drink, do they do drunks? Like you know,
this is something that's very common, but this is not
the case. Even in the early eighties. You know, these
things were considered sort of you know, beyond the boundary
(01:01:46):
of what was acceptable, Like this was private, and Thomas
de Gucci thought it should not be kept private, this
should be public. And so he also does this in
the Natalie Wood case and this right, and people are outraged.
Natalie Wood was a much loved child star who becomes right,
(01:02:07):
you know, an adult star in this period as well,
and ultimately some very famous people. And this is probably
one of the most surprising things. You know, when I
was working in the archives to find a letter on
very heavy this beautiful stationery embossed with the name Frank
Sinatra at the top of the letter.
Speaker 2 (01:02:29):
Wow.
Speaker 3 (01:02:30):
He and you know he and Natalie would have this
long relationship which I will not speculate on here, but
basically that you know, he says that part of the
reason that she drowned is most likely because she was intoxicated.
And you know, Frank Sinatra's outraged. He can delivers the
(01:02:52):
letter to the board of supervisors and you know, this
brings you know, the Screen Actors Guild comes out outraged
and demands accountability from the county. And and what what
Nagucchi discovers in this in this case is that something
(01:03:17):
has changed. The political moment has changed. He no longer
has the same you know, celebrity turns on him and
and I think it was really painful for him for
this to happen. And and because of this, it leads
this combined with the invest right because Natalie Wood happens
(01:03:40):
as the Ron Settles case is unfolding as well, and
so all now he has a lot of media attention,
but not the kind that he wants.
Speaker 2 (01:03:52):
And that journalist from La Times, Laura Becklun, continues with
her battle to try to get Nagucci to resign or
be fired.
Speaker 3 (01:04:02):
Yeah, well, hers, it's not a battle necessarily to get
him to resign and be fired. Is that she just
starts pulling on these threads right as an investigative journalist.
But it is her work that leads to the Board
of supervisors to ultimately a fire in Nagucci. And what
happens is this time around, they're very careful and they
(01:04:26):
even write a memo, an internal memo, that we need
to be really careful here to make sure that none
of this, any of the evidence that we collect can
be deemed racist or that we're targeting him. And so
they build a very very careful case to make sure
(01:04:47):
that they have the grounds to dismiss him based on
mismanagement of his office. So rather than focusing on his
behavior in a particular case, like they're really talking about mismanagement.
And then there's some horrific things, right they you know,
somehow you know, medical waste that is supposed to be
(01:05:10):
disposed of, you know, incinerated, you know, wind up in
a landfill. And there are some really graphic descriptions of
the person who discovers this, and it's traced back to
the coroner's office wait times, you know, for death certificates,
you know, increases exponentially. You know, the bodies of the
(01:05:31):
dead are being robbed, there's cross contamination of evidence, and
in many ways it is you know, Thomas and Gucci
was not a stellar administrator, but at the same time,
he was woefully underfunded and so but I think that
combined with his insistence that the coroner's office maintain its independence,
(01:05:57):
and he was not afraid to speak up and speak
out on things that were unpopular or could be embarrassing
to powerful people.
Speaker 2 (01:06:06):
You know, it.
Speaker 3 (01:06:09):
All fed into this campaign to fire him in the
early eighties.
Speaker 2 (01:06:17):
You say he was suspended with pay ultimately, but it
was very difficult on Naguchi because of the divorce, alimony
and relinquishing some properties, still paying legal bills.
Speaker 3 (01:06:31):
Yeah, you know, it was financially you know, it was
very difficult for him in this time period. And I
think what was hard for him also was that he
did not have the community support in the same way
that he did in the sixties, and a lot of
community members had decided that this wasn't really an issue,
(01:06:53):
this wasn't racial discrimination, but this was and I still
think some racial discrimination factored into his removal is firing
in the eighties, but they pointed out it is really
about his mismanagement and as the investigative, you know, journalism
on the Corner's office unfold. You know, people are really
(01:07:14):
shocked at the state of the Corner's office and you know,
and some of Thomas Negucci's sort of behavior. And so
the community, you know, does not come out in this
the same way as they did in the sixties and
without the support and and also the community is pulled
into other directions. You know, the Japanese American community in
(01:07:39):
this early period is working on the Redress movement for
Japanese incarceration during the war, and so they're doing that
and they they have less time, you know, to to
roll out a campaign and support of Thomas Negucci. And
also by the eighties, he's not like like, you know,
there are other Asian Americas who are in powerful positions
(01:08:02):
in the county and he doesn't have. It wasn't they
didn't have the same kind of urgency as they did
in the sixties to protect the civil service system. So
it was a very very different time.
Speaker 2 (01:08:16):
You say, in June eighty four, there was a hearing
to reverse the demotion. It was refused and eighty six
another appeal was denied and then March eighty seventh ruling
of the District Court of Appeals. With that ruling, Nagucci
accepted defeat. The fighting coroner had done fighting, you.
Speaker 3 (01:08:38):
Right, yeah, yeah. And this is sort of the remarkable
thing about Thomas Nagucci is that I can only imagine,
you know, that it was really difficult. It was really
difficult to lose the job that he wanted so badly
and had for so long. But he vents himself and
(01:09:01):
he ultimately becomes, you know, the chief of pathology at
USC County General Hospital, and he trains, you know, a
generation of pathologists. He returns to doing research full time,
and I think by teaching and doing research it serves
(01:09:24):
his better nature. And ultimately he resigned and that resigns.
But he retires in nineteen ninety nine, and he had
been out of the media spif for a very long time,
and he's just so incredibly gracious, and he talks about
how he loved every single minute of working for the
county despite all the you know, the very difficult things
(01:09:46):
that he faced, and in that moment, like you could
tell that he like the second part of his career
in the county, that he really enjoyed it. He enjoyed
teaching and and again he reinvents himself in this way.
(01:10:06):
And I think, uh, that is is really is really remarkable.
It also probably helped, you know, in terms of his
ego that when he when he did was not reinstated. Uh,
his memoir Corner was on the best sellers list, and
when you know, the decision was made not to read,
(01:10:27):
you know, to reinstate him. He was on a book
tour and then he co authored two mystery novels and
then another you know book about forensic cases, and and
so you know that he has his thriving career as
a writer. And and so I think that also helped
kind of assuage his you know, ego and his feelings too.
(01:10:50):
But and in the end, right, he still does forensic research.
He is you know, he goes to you know, the
friend major you know, forensic conferences, and you know, he
is still standing when most of the folks who were
so adamant that he was unqualified and people who critiqued him,
(01:11:14):
they're now all gone.
Speaker 2 (01:11:18):
And you write too that he reunites ultimately with his
beloved supporter Jsco.
Speaker 1 (01:11:25):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (01:11:26):
They you know, I was just really gratified when I discovered.
You know, I had a hard time finding that information.
I had, you know, heard, you know, sort of secondhand.
'smen said, Oh, they did reunite. They got remarried, and
you know, and after being divorced for so long, they
do remarry and he takes you know, he takes care
(01:11:46):
of her until she dies in twenty fifteen. He's had
a remarkable career.
Speaker 2 (01:11:56):
You write. At the time of this writing, he is
in his late nineties and the majority of the supporters
and political enemies are gone. As you had mentioned, how
old is Thomas Nagucci today?
Speaker 3 (01:12:10):
Ninety eight?
Speaker 2 (01:12:13):
And when was the last time you spoke with him?
Speaker 3 (01:12:16):
So I was really fortunate, and this is a very
random story. I had a very hard time. I really
wanted to interview him for the book. And what had
happened is, you know, I had an email for him
that someone passed on. I wasn't sure if you know,
(01:12:36):
he was receiving the emails. I reached out. You know,
he still has an office at usc A, University of Southing, California,
and so I reached out and reached out never heard,
and so, you know, I'm writing the book and then
I had to have eye surgery earlier in the like
in November of this past year, in twenty four. My
(01:13:00):
husband is sitting there and then he hears the receptionists
call out the name Thomas Negucci and he looks up
and there's Thomas Negucci and and so and he has
his uh foster daughter, like, hey, his his daughter who
is with him? And you know, she comes out and
then and then I come out and then my husband
(01:13:23):
tells Thomas Negucci's here, and I literally just had eye
surgery of a patch over my eye, and right, I'm
just really, you know, not one hundred percent. And then
and then I was like, but oh my gosh, that
is Thomas Dagucci. And then I go and introduce myself
and then pass on my phone number. And then they
invite me to come and have coffee one day and
(01:13:43):
I go, and now I'm sitting It was a surreal moment.
I am sitting in a garden with these beautiful persimon
trees and you know, there are flowers and butterflies. It's
just it's just beautiful and I'm sitting there, you know,
just chatting with Thomas Negucci, and he was gracious and
(01:14:06):
lovely and kind, and you know, there were you know,
unfortunately the book was pretty much done, but I was,
you know, I still have some fact checking questions that
he was just you know, so kind in the answering
and so yeah, like he's.
Speaker 2 (01:14:24):
Remarkable, absolutely, and so is this book about his life
as chief coroner in La County. I want to thank
you so much and soon Choi for coming on and
talking about LA Coroner, Thomas Negucci and death in Hollywood.
Can you tell us for people to want to refer to.
Do you have a website or do any social media? Please?
Speaker 3 (01:14:47):
I do. My author website is a N N E
s O O n C HOI asun choi dot com
and you'll find events, some of the new things that
I'm working on. And then and you can follow me
on Instagram at LA true Crime. I talk on my
(01:15:07):
social media. I also do some things about local LA
true crime, things that I have found and that I'm
interested in. And and it's also you know, my my
author handle, and you know, I promote events there, you know,
and interested in anyone who's interested in true crime.
Speaker 2 (01:15:30):
Absolutely, thank you so much and soon joy La Coroner,
Thomas Negucci and death in Hollywood. Thank you so much
for this interview and you have a great evening and
good night.
Speaker 3 (01:15:42):
Oh thanks for having me, Thank you, good night,
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