March 13, 2021 • 67 mins
In 1976, a killer who called himself ‘The Son of Sam’ shot and killed a half dozen people and wounded as many more in New York City. During his crime spree, the madman left bizarre letters mocking the police and promising more deaths.
After months of terrorizing the city while garnering front-page headlines and international attention, a man named David Berkowitz was arrested. He confessed to the shootings, claiming to be obeying a demon that resided in a dog that belonged to his neighbor “Sam.”
Among the alleged victims was Carl Denaro. On the night he was shot, Denaro was hanging out with some friends at a bar when he met up with a woman named Rosemary Keenan. The couple left the bar and went to Keenan’s car for some privacy. However, a few minutes later, the windows of the car exploded as Denaro was shot in the head by an unseen assailant. Miraculously, Denaro survived the attack.When Berkowitz was arrested, he was charged with trying to kill Denaro. However, there was a twist. Although he confessed to the other shootings, after his conviction Berkowitz denied attacking Denaro.Now, after years of research, Denaro is convinced that Berkowitz was telling the truth, and that someone else tried to kill him. "THE SON OF SAM" AND ME: The Truth About Why I wasn't Shot by David Berkowitz-Carl Denaro
MURDER #fabfitfunpartner Follow and comment on Facebook-TRUE MURDER: The Most Shocking Killers in True Crime History https://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100064697978510Check out TRUE MURDER PODCAST @ truemurderpodcast.com
After months of terrorizing the city while garnering front-page headlines and international attention, a man named David Berkowitz was arrested. He confessed to the shootings, claiming to be obeying a demon that resided in a dog that belonged to his neighbor “Sam.”
Among the alleged victims was Carl Denaro. On the night he was shot, Denaro was hanging out with some friends at a bar when he met up with a woman named Rosemary Keenan. The couple left the bar and went to Keenan’s car for some privacy. However, a few minutes later, the windows of the car exploded as Denaro was shot in the head by an unseen assailant. Miraculously, Denaro survived the attack.When Berkowitz was arrested, he was charged with trying to kill Denaro. However, there was a twist. Although he confessed to the other shootings, after his conviction Berkowitz denied attacking Denaro.Now, after years of research, Denaro is convinced that Berkowitz was telling the truth, and that someone else tried to kill him. "THE SON OF SAM" AND ME: The Truth About Why I wasn't Shot by David Berkowitz-Carl Denaro
MURDER #fabfitfunpartner Follow and comment on Facebook-TRUE MURDER: The Most Shocking Killers in True Crime History https://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100064697978510Check out TRUE MURDER PODCAST @ truemurderpodcast.com
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Judy was boring.
Speaker 2 (00:01):
Hello.
Speaker 3 (00:01):
Then Judy discovered chumpacasino dot com.
Speaker 2 (00:04):
It's my little escape.
Speaker 3 (00:06):
Now Judy is the life of the party.
Speaker 1 (00:08):
Oh baby mama is bringing home the bacon.
Speaker 3 (00:10):
WHOA, take it easy, Judy, The chump of life's for everybody.
So go to chumpacasino dot com and play over one
hundred casino style games. Join today and play for free
for your chance to redeem some serious prices. Jump chumpacasino
dot com. Noe's necessarily, we're poittedt by montem lost terms
and condition to plaice. What's every details?
Speaker 1 (00:30):
Step into the world of power, loyalty and luck.
Speaker 2 (00:35):
I'm gonna make him an offer you can't refuse.
Speaker 1 (00:37):
With family canoli's and spins mean everything? Now you want
to get mixed up in the family business, Introducing the
Godfather at champacasino dot com. Test your luck in the
shadowy world at the Godfather Slough.
Speaker 4 (00:52):
Someday I will call upon you to do a service
for me.
Speaker 1 (00:55):
Play the Godfather now at chumpacasino dot com. Welcome to
the Family vdW group. NOPERD is necessary. If we were
primitted by loss he terms and conditions eighteen plus.
Speaker 5 (01:11):
You are now listening to True Murder the most shocking
killers in true crime history and the authors that have
written about them Gaesy, Bundy, Dahmer, The Nightstalker DTK. Every
week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and
infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with your
(01:33):
host journalist and author Dan Zufanski.
Speaker 4 (01:46):
Good Evening. In nineteen seventy six, a killer who called
himself the son of Sam, shot and killed a half
dozen people and wounded as many more in New York City.
During his crime spree, the madman left bizarre lets mocking
the police and promising more deaths. After months of terrorizing
the city while garnering front page headlines and international attention,
(02:09):
a man named David Berkowitz was arrested. He confessed to
the shootings, claiming to be obeying a demon that resided
in a dog that belonged to his neighbor Sam. Among
the alleged victims was Carl Denaro. On the night he
was shot, Denaro was hanging out with some friends at
a bar when he met up with a woman named
Rosemary Keenan. The couple left the bar and went to
(02:32):
Keenan's car for some privacy However, a few minutes later,
the windows of the car exploded as de Naro was
shot in the head by an unseen assailant. Miraculously, Denaro
survived the attack. When Berkowitz was arrested, he was charged
with trying to kill Denaro. However, there was a twist.
Although he confessed to the other shootings after his conviction,
(02:55):
Berkowitz denied attacking Denaro. Now, after years of research, Denaro
is convinced that Berkowitz was telling the truth and that
someone else tried to kill him. The book that we're
featuring this evening is The Son of Sam and Me
The Truth About Why I Wasn't shot by David Berkowitz,
with my special guests, investigator and author Carl Denario. Welcome
(03:18):
to the program, and thank you so much for this interview.
Speaker 2 (03:21):
Carl Denaro, Thanks Dan, thanks for having me.
Speaker 4 (03:26):
Thank you so much for this. First off, you talk
about in the book before we get to the Faithful Day,
obviously that you became inextricably involved with the Son and
Son of Sam story, and also this case you give
credit to your daughter, Casey so many years later, your daughter,
(03:50):
how was she an influence? What happened and why in
this project that she had as a film student. What
inspired you to write this book?
Speaker 2 (04:05):
Well, I've got her on an idea of writing a
book for many, many years, but I never really felt
I had a story that other people would be interested in.
Along about twenty fifteen, my daughter was a film student
at the time, had to produce a student thesis film
(04:28):
and she decided to do a story on me. So
through her interview interview with me and my friends, my family,
a lot of questions that never really were asked to
me or I really thought about, came up and got
(04:51):
me thinking. By the time, by the time she was
done with the script, I realized that there was I
did have a story and I did have a book.
She eventually finished the film, and it's a short film
sixteen minutes called Carl Very Original, and I went on
(05:13):
to win a few awards. She won the New York
Women's Film Award, TV Emerging Female Filmmaker Award, and she
won a student grant from the National Boarder Review. I
was also in the movie as a detective Blues, who
is obviously a real character, so that was kind of
(05:34):
cool to get my face on camera.
Speaker 4 (05:38):
Yes, you said too that this book was this. You know,
this is an incredible book project to endeavor to do,
and it was a little more difficult than even might
have thought. Tell us about the help you got from
author Brian Whitney.
Speaker 2 (05:56):
Sure, so, yeah, the book was difficult for me to
write on a few levels. First off, me and I
never wrote a book before, and I took a few
writing classes that my daughter signed me up for, and
I wrote a little bit and I said, oh, this
is this is cool. I can do this. And when
(06:18):
I when I started writing the book, I was lost.
So yeah, So a mutual mutual friend who actually published
a book told me about Brian, and I contacted Brian
Whitney and told him my story, and we met and
(06:43):
we hit it off and we became writing partners. And
the process basically was, you know, I would I would
do the best I could. I'd write five, six, seven,
ten pages and send it to Brian, and Brian would,
you know, smooth everything out and you know, make my
(07:04):
ten pages into twenty or thirty pages. And this process
took close to a year, mostly because of me, not
because of Brian.
Speaker 4 (07:17):
Right now, with this as well, what's very important about
this is a book by Maury Terry who becomes a friend,
and we'll be talking about extensively about Mary Terry's influence
in this and your friendship and the investigation that you
both undertook to find out the truth that now has
(07:38):
come to light in this book Son of Sam and me.
Let's talk about what you're not trying to sell us
on in this book, but also what was uncovered when
you read Maury Terry's book The Ultimate Evil.
Speaker 2 (07:57):
Okay, So that breaks me to another difficult part of
writing this book. As I started writing, I realized that
I wanted to tell my story and how it affected
my life over the last forty five years. And I
(08:17):
realized very quickly that I can't do that without explaining
the Son of Sam shootings. So I started writing about
each shooting, and halfway through, I said, I don't want
to rewrite The Ultimate Evil. That's not my goal. So
that became very difficult, not you know, I mean, obviously
(08:39):
it's the same case, so a lot of the same
information is there. But I really wanted to write, you know,
the story from my viewpoint. I also wanted to bring
forward to the general public the conspiracy theory which has
been I don't want to say, debunked, but it's been
(09:02):
poopooed by the press and by the police for since
Mary Terry's book came out in nineteen eighty seven.
Speaker 4 (09:10):
Right now, you talk about the official story, and people
that followed this case know that there was an official
story early on about a dog. We've referenced in the introduction.
There was the official story when you were were attacked
(09:33):
and afterwards, what was the official story that you heard
following that before they made any kind of connection to
this forty four caliber killer?
Speaker 2 (09:45):
Is sure the original story I was the second It
turned out I was a second victim shop by son
of Sam, but there was no son of Sam at
the time, so it appeared to the police that was
a random shooting. And the fact that I, you know,
I smoked pot, I had long hair, and the girl
(10:10):
I was with her father was a detective and he
was assigned to my case. So his immediate his immediate
reaction was it took a drug deal gone wrong, and
that certainly was not the case. But I didn't know
(10:32):
who shot me, so I really didn't have much defense.
That went on for six months from October twenty third,
the day I was shot, until March tenth, nineteen seventy seven,
when Police Commissioner Cod and the mayor Mayor A Beam
(10:53):
had a press conference and said, we have a serial
killer and we were able to link five random shootings
to this serial killer. So for six months I was,
you know, on the charts when the police department as
you know, a drug dealer.
Speaker 4 (11:15):
Let's let's get to your Let's get to your particular case,
because there's no way anybody can imagine how you would
be depicted as a or this case is a drug
deal gone bad. I laugh at that hilarious depiction all
the time. Drug deal gone bad sounds like everything was
done in Mexico with hotel or something, you know. So
let's let's talk about yourself. This is this is incredible.
(11:37):
This is the last night before you left to join
the air Force. So tell us about this air force
and who you were. You had, you were long haired,
you talk about smoking pot. Tell our audience who you
were at this time in nineteen seventy six and this night,
particularly October twenty second, nineteen seventy six. Who were you
and what were you doing and how did you up
(12:00):
meeting with Rosemary Keenan who his father just happened to
be a detective.
Speaker 2 (12:07):
Yeah, that's you know, I was twenty years old, I said,
long hair, you know, finel Sharts jeans. You know, I guess,
the last of the hippies from the sixties. And you know,
I had dropped out of college at you know, a
few mineral jobs that I didn't really I said, there's
(12:30):
no you know, there's no future here, and I decided
to join the Air Force. So I joined. I enlisted
in the Air Force, and they gave me what they
call a deferred reporting date. So they gave me I
was sworn in in August of seventy six, and my
(12:53):
report date was October twenty eighth of seventy six. And
unfortunately for me in the Air Force, I was shot
on the twenty third, five days before I was to
report to basic training.
Speaker 4 (13:08):
Mm hmm.
Speaker 2 (13:12):
So as far as the night, the night of the
the the event, I was just hanging out with my friends.
We went to a party and it wasn't really that good.
So we went back to the bar Pex bar and
grill that we hung out at and ran into Rosemary,
who had known from from college. We had you know,
(13:32):
we we've gone out on a few dates but we
certainly weren't dating. But uh, yeah, we you know, we
hung out for a little bit at the bar, had
a few drinks, and then we decided to leave in
h in her Volkswagen, and you know, we you know,
we drove around the neighborhood. It was my neighborhood, not hers,
(13:55):
and with no particular place in mind. Unlike some of
the reports that you might have heard, this was not
a you know, a lover's lane type thing. It was
it actually four of my friends lived on that block.
It you know, it just we just wound up there
and we were there for maybe I don't know, three
(14:17):
four or five minutes, and the next thing, I know,
the all the all the class in the car exploded,
and uh and I knew we were in trouble. And
so it's a very surrealistic feeling because I did not
know that I was shot, but I knew we were
in trouble. And you know, I yelled at Rosemary to
(14:38):
start the car up, and and she did and and
I passed out for ten fifteen seconds and she was
when I when I came to, she was in a
tizzy because she had no idea where she was. So
I directed her back to the bar and got out
of the car, walked in and uh uh, this is
(15:01):
all this is all crazy, because you know, I have
I have a bull wounded in the back of my head.
I have no idea how I possibly could have gotten
out of the car and walked into the bar, but
I did. And uh yeah, And when I walked in,
the guy at the door said, you know, look good,
and I said, I don't feel good. I think the
car exploded. And with that my head went down and
(15:25):
my warm hair was holding all this blood and I
you know, at the time, I just had blood on
my arms and from the class shorts. And when everyone
in the bar saw that, and it's like, well, you know,
we got to get him to the hospital. So we
a friend of mine drove me to a Flushing, Flushing
(15:46):
hospital and they took care of me there in the
emergency room.
Speaker 4 (15:53):
You talk about that we didn't mention is that for
some reason you were paranoid. And but you know, Jesus said,
seventy six, you threw this bag of weed out the window.
And this will be important a little bit later. Yes, yeah,
it'll be important later when you when you get too
honest for your own good. So now you're you're you're.
(16:15):
Now you're at the hospital here, put you on a gurney,
taking an examiner, so they realize that the extent of
your injury you still don't know. But you say too
that you never heard a gunshot. You just realize the
glass exploded, so you never really heard it. You never
heard a gunshot previous to that. This Marlon Hopkins is
(16:36):
a homicide detective from NYPD. He comes to investigate, but
then when they find out you're not dead, he takes
off apparently. And and because the doctors say you're going
to be stabilizing, you're going to make it through. So
now what happens in terms of the police investigating this.
You talked about when I'm a little while ago about
(16:59):
how they thought it was a drug deal gone bad.
So now we at least we know the audience knows
that you threw this bag of weed out. But yes,
why on earth would they think this is a drug
deal gone bad? Where do they get that idea?
Speaker 2 (17:13):
Well, they got him from me. Unfortunately, the next day
or actually later in the morning, Detective Keenan, Rosemary's dad
and Detective Blues, his partner, came to my room and said,
you know what happened. I said, I don't know. And
(17:34):
he said where did it happen. I said one hundred
and sixtieth Street and thirty third Avenue. So they they left,
and they came back about an hour later and threatened
to arrest me if I didn't tell him the truth.
And I'm like, what are you talking about? And he said, well,
we went from one sixtieth Street to one seventy second
(17:56):
Street and we didn't find any you know, any glass
or anything. So when they said that, it dawned to me.
I said, oh, it was one hundred and fifty ninth Street,
not one hundred and six sixtieth Street. And they looked
at each other and because basically, you know, they went
twelve blocks in one direction, didn't think to go one
(18:18):
block the other direction. And as a parting shot, because
that's my nature, I said, and by the way, I
threw a bag of weed out so you might find that, so, which,
like I said later on, that probably was the smartest
thing to say. But that's how they found out about
the weed. And by the way, they never found the weed.
Speaker 4 (18:41):
Someone did, Yeah, somebody did. Yests now, now, Detective Keenan
now you you say that you already knew him, you
recognized him, you knew who he was. So he wasn't
too happy that his ardor was involved in this situation,
especially not knowing from where it came from. So he
(19:02):
assumed that it had some kind of drug relation or
he was just looking at you. So how do they
proceed with this investigation in terms and your participation and
what you find out about this supposed forty four caliber.
Speaker 2 (19:19):
Killer as well? You know, basically there is one more meeting.
When I'm I was in the hospital for three weeks,
and they came back to my mom's house where I
was living, and handed me a list of I don't know,
maybe seventy five one hundred names, and it was basically
(19:41):
a list of people who had been arrested in my neighborhood.
And I did recognize a lot of the names. Most
of them were like ridiculous, you know, stolen bike, public intoxication,
a vagaweed, you know, nothing major. And I couldn't believe
that somebody I knew would shoot me. I just didn't
(20:04):
we First of all, I didn't live in that kind
of neighborhood. It was basically an upper middle class neighborhood
that didn't really have any violence, you know, so I
I said, I don't think it's anyone on here. And
of course there was names and there I had no
idea who they were. And that I mean that that
(20:26):
was pretty much the end of that story. And to
add on to that, that was pretty much the That
was pretty much the blessed interaction I had personally with
the NYPD in this case, which you know, it didn't
really bother me back then, but it you know, in
(20:47):
the ensuing years, it kind of puzzled me because when
they arrested Barker Wood, for example, uh, my sister got
a phone call from a reporter saying that they arrested
the son of Sam and it's this guy called David
Berkowitz and she's you know, and my sister didn't live,
(21:09):
you know, she had her own apartment, so she called
my mom's house at two in the morning. And I,
you know, in retrospect, I think it's kind of strange
that I didn't get an official call from somebody in
the police department saying, you know, rest easy, we caught
the guy that you know, we caught the guy to shatcha.
Speaker 4 (21:31):
Now you survived but this it wasn't without some complications. Here, Uh,
just tell us about what they had to do two
before you were released from the hospital and we're out
of danger, per se.
Speaker 2 (21:49):
Sure, well they yeah, it was uh you know, of
course it's seventy six, so the you know, medicine is
a little bit better today than it was then. But
you know, uh, you know, with a head injury, there
was there was no painkillers to be had. It was
tiling oil, which really believed me. It really didn't help,
(22:14):
you know, did. I developed like a little bit of
a nervous text shaking my you know, my leg up
and down, and I was in I was in pretty
bad pain for I'd say about you know, a week,
five days, seven days, and then they they had to
come in about a week into my hospital's stay. They
(22:36):
the nurse and the doctor would come in like every
other day with this huge needle and draw a fluid
from the back of my skull that was building up
around my brain. And that that was almost as painful
as being shot, I could tell you that. And uh yeah,
so you know I wound up staying in the hospital
(22:58):
for three three weeks and then I was released with
the instructions that I have to stay in the house.
I can't go out because there's only a thin piece
of skin protecting my brain because the bullet put a
(23:19):
hole about a size fifty cent piece in the back
of my head. And then they told me in January,
actually January twentieth, once a swelling had gone down, they
would insert a plate to cover the hole that the
bullet made. So that was, yeah, that was a long
(23:40):
three months.
Speaker 4 (23:44):
Now you talk about then you write about July twenty ninth,
the attack before yours, because you guys were second, You
and Rosemary were second. But this is July twenty ninth,
nineteen seventy six. Donal Lorie, she's eighteen years old, their
friend Jody Valenti, and they're at a disco and so
a man approaches them. He pulls out a gun from
(24:04):
a bag, approaches down and shoots donn and she's instantly dead,
and Valenti is shot in a thigh and she survives.
What is the description of that perpetrator at that time,
July twenty ninth, nineteen seventy six.
Speaker 2 (24:22):
Well, the description of a shooter pretty much, as it
turned out, pretty much described David Barkowitz. They did have
a suspect, Donna's ex boyfriend who just I know this
is bizarre, but he just happened to own a forty
(24:44):
four caliper gun and they had broken up. Yeah, and
they had broken up. I'm not sure if it's a
few weeks or a few months, but they had broken
up and he was prime suspect. And he kind of
is very strange. He he came in and out of
the news very quick. He never heard of him again.
(25:05):
You know, they exonerated him. I guess he had an
albi whatever. But Uh, I always wondered, you know, later
on when they tied shootings together to a forty four,
what didn't go back to uh to her ex boyfriend
to question him again, And to be honest, they might have,
(25:27):
but I'm not I'm not aware of it.
Speaker 3 (25:30):
Mm hmm.
Speaker 2 (25:31):
Yeah. And you know there was there was some other uh,
you know, the description of from uh from Jody, Uh,
like I said, pretty much matched David Barkowitz. And of course, uh,
you know, years later he admitted that is one of
the shootings that he that he did.
Speaker 4 (25:54):
Were there you were the second I just mentioned. You
were the second group of victims. You and Rosemary where
their witnesses to your attack, and what was that notion of.
Speaker 2 (26:06):
Yeah, there's it's kind of it's kind of funny that I,
you know, of all the victims that survived, I'm the
only one that has, you know, pursued this case. And
there's the least amount of information on my case. So
now there was no there was you know, it was
(26:28):
it was no no eye witnesses. It was two o'clock
in the morning in a very residential neighborhood. I'm sure
I don't know for a fact, but I'm sure somebody
was woken up by gunshot wounds. But I said, we, uh,
Rosemary pulled the car away fast. I think by the
time someone got out of bed and went to the
(26:48):
window or you know, the Volkswagen, Rosemary'svolkswagen was probably gone already.
Speaker 4 (26:56):
After your shooting. There's Donna Dimassi sixteen year old, th
Joanne Lomino eighteen, and Queen's November twenty sixth, nineteen seventy six.
The description is men in twenties who asked for directions
and pull out the gun and fired. A blonde man
ran with the gun. So even by that third set,
(27:17):
we're already seeing these contradictory composites and descriptions, aren't.
Speaker 2 (27:23):
We oh without a doubt, and that shooting actually did
have some of my witnesses. Obviously bald girls survived, although
you know one was paralyzed, but they were both able
to give police a description. And it was also two
(27:43):
neighbors I believe one was outside and on the sidewalk
and saw the guy, this guy run with something in
his left hand. He thought it was a gun, but
he couldn't be sure. And then with somebody else that
looked out the window, and all four people, all four
(28:04):
witnesses basically described the same person. The only difference was
the part was on the left or the part was
on the right. But the police sketches that they produced
from these four witnesses are basically the same picture, except
you know, for a left or right part.
Speaker 4 (28:26):
And you say they the MASSI recovers and unfortunately Lomino
as a paraplegic. And then on January thirtieth, nineteen seventy seven,
Christine Freund and her fiancee John Diel, and this is
in Queens, they didn't see their attacker. May eighteenth, seventy seven,
(28:48):
Virginia Vaskarischian a nineteen shot in the face. And then
you say, at that time, the city is in a
state of panic by this time, aren't they.
Speaker 2 (28:59):
Yeah, yeah, it was, uh yeah, it's you know, like
I said, there was no sun to sam. But when
they the police put together and announced it's a serial killer,
and uh, basically all hell broke less mm hmm.
Speaker 4 (29:18):
And and early on you were made to believe, or
you believe somehow that because you had long hair, tell
us what you think why you were shot?
Speaker 2 (29:32):
Yeah, you know, I guess, you know, later later in
in you know, in that year, it kind of came
they said, well, you know, it's mostly brown, you know,
girls with long brown hair. And I did have long
brown hair, and I was in a passenger seat, so
you know, it was pretty I don't know, pretty much
(29:53):
everyone agreed I was probably shot being mistaken for a female.
Speaker 4 (30:01):
Now you include, of course, about the next layer of this,
or the next twist to this incredible story is when
the forty four caliber killer writes a letter to the
New York Daily News reporter Jimmy Breslin and with the
taunting message and the blood and family, darkness and death,
(30:22):
absolute depravity, forty four Hello from the gutters of New York.
People are familiar with that, and he provides the names,
I guess, a variety of names. Duke of Death, the
Wicked King, Wicker, the twenty two Disciples of Hell, which
we will be exploring, John Wheaty's rapist and suffocator of
(30:44):
young girls. So through all of this, and eventually people
know the story of the parking ticket and the woman
that observes Berkowitz, and so the unraveling, and then he's arrested.
And now when that arrest, obviously tell us how you feel.
(31:09):
But then how long is it before how many years
or how long is it before you hear or tell
us about how you hear about some alternate story to
the one that Berkowitz and the media especially has put out.
Speaker 2 (31:26):
Yeah, I just just to be clear when this happened,
when the shootings happened, I was getting my information except
for the two visits from the NYPD detectives. I was
getting all my information, like everyone else, from the newspapers.
(31:46):
I had no reason to believe anything else was going on.
How would I know the story of you know, thinking
there might be other people involved was a very slow
evolving story, and the first incident was January nineteen eighty
(32:08):
when I went with my lawyer for a civil case
against against David Barkowitz, and basically we were there to
all the victims and lawyers were there to determine what
percentage each person would get based on their injury. And
(32:31):
of course the money they were talking about was just
in case a movie was made or a book was written.
By this lawyer, Harry Lipzig, who was now deceased, but
he was pretty famous lawyer in New York City. He
kept yelling at the judge. He said, there's other people involved.
(32:52):
And I had no idea what he was talking about.
So I asked my lawyer and he said, ah, he goes.
You know, Harry thinks there was a parrasee and there
was other shooters. I'm like, oh, really, I didn't know that.
So that was in nineteen eighty long about nineteen ninety
ninety one, I met retired New York City ballistics detective.
(33:18):
Actually I'm jumping ahead. The next step in this is
reading Marey Terry's book in nineteen eighty seven, where you
know where Morey lays out this conspiracy. You know that
other people were involved, and as you mentioned earlier, twenty
two disciples of Hell. So of course I was fascinated
and I'm like wow, and I thought about, like, you know,
(33:40):
the court in nineteen eighty. I'm like, well, maybe there
is something to this. The third piece was was when
I met the retired ballistics detective and he told me
flat out that he worked on my case and he
in the report he wrote that either a woman or
a ninety pound weakling that fired the shots. He also
(34:04):
told me that the file on my ballistics file is
no longer where it should be and to this day
it's lost forever. So there was three pieces of information
that that led me to this, And of course the
last and final piece to convince me was a TV
(34:27):
interview that Maury Terry did with David Parkowitz, and he
actually says, you know, did you shoe Carl Denaro and
Barker Wood says no, do you know who did? Yes?
And you know what? It was a female? Anybody wouldn't
give her name. So those four pieces of information, you know,
(34:48):
kind of sealed it from me.
Speaker 4 (34:53):
Yeah, certainly, let's use this as an opportunity to stop
for a second to hear from our sponsor, which is
five Fit Fun fab Fit Fun Spring box is centered
around the theme grow Forth, supporting self care and self
growth in the new season ahead. My wife Lisa and
I are planning to grow forth into the spring season
by reconnecting with old friends and getting back into hobbies
(35:16):
and activities that we can plan to do outside. My
wife Lisa was excited to get her Fat Fit Fun
Spring Box and wanting to get ahead start this year
on our garden. So she was anxious to get her
led Indoor Planner by Short Stories and get started planning
seeds indoors for our garden this summer. Lisa loves all
(35:36):
the Fat Fit Fun items relating to skincare, like Grown
Alchemist body cream with Mandarin and rosemary leaf and Josie
Moran one hundred percent pure Argan oil. Lisa loved her
Superi sim Bi Verso with Retinol eight and pure Iconic
Glow moisturizing face and body dry oil. Lisa literally relies
(35:57):
on Fatfit Fun and all the marvelous health and beauty
pros they deliver right to our door. Twenty female founded
brands are in the spring Box this season. You can
choose from a wide variety of products when you order
receive seasonal must haves without leaving home. This fabfit fundspring
box is still exciting for Lisa to receive, even after
(36:17):
receiving fabfit fumboxes for almost four years. Lisa tells everyone
she encounters about the amazing products and the incredible value
and the perks of membership. Or to your spring box today.
Sign up now so you can snag amazing products like
the Led Indoor Planner by Short Stories or Verso super
(36:38):
Iserum when you customize, use coupon code murder for ten
dollars off your first box at www dot fabfitfund dot com.
Use coupon code murder for ten dollars off your first
box at www dot fabfitfund dot com. Now, Carl, we
(37:00):
were just talking about this incredible moment when you realize
there is much more to the story, and that's an
incredible understatement. So how is it that you hook up
with Maury Terry?
Speaker 2 (37:21):
So, yeah, I guess said, I read. I read Mary's book.
I didn't know him. I watched him on TV on
the Inside Edition and his jail house interviews with Barker Woods,
and eventually I got a call from Heraudo Rivera to
be a guest on his show and at the time,
(37:43):
I worked in Manhattan, and they asked me, would you
mind going up to fifty seventh Street and going to
this restaurant called Kennedy's. Uh, and we'll have a call
waiting for you. You you and Maury Terry. So I
went to Kennedy's. I was introduced to introduced to Maury
(38:06):
by the bartender and we decided to forego dinner and
decided to have a few drinks at the bar and
talk about the son of Sam. By the time an
hour later, by the time the limo right, we were
we were like best friends. And and that that was
the beginning of my relationship with with Maury.
Speaker 4 (38:30):
Incredible from the information and Maury Terry managers obviously to
speak to Berkowitz. So what do you find out early
on in terms of this different narrative about who shot
who and what is all involved here?
Speaker 2 (38:52):
Yeah, so, you know, by the time I met Maury,
you know, and you know, in these these different facts
that I have found over the years proving to me
that more than one person was involved, you know that
that was just like the springboard to to continue, you know,
(39:15):
continue investigating. Now, up to this point, I wasn't investigating anything.
The Internet was relatively new, and uh, believe it or not,
in nineteen ninety four, there really wasn't that much that
you could google, but there was stuff there, and obviously
there's a lot more now. Maury was you know, old
(39:39):
school and you know, old school investigative reporter. And you know,
he had a typewriter, you know, an IBM S electric
and he typed away and and he had sources and uh,
you know, he would go to Kennedy's and you know
talk you know, police officials and what have you. So
I was, uh, because of my work, I I was
(40:04):
familiar with the Internet, and I had a computer at home,
and I offered to help him because I was shocked
that he was able to put this book together and
do all his research with no Internet. So so he
started feeding me. He didn't even have a cell phone
just by the way. Uh, he started feeding me to
(40:26):
phone calls like names or addresses and says, you know,
look this up, said you know, but he wouldn't really
tell me what I was looking up, and would just
be look up Joe Blow and tell me what you
can find about him. So I said, you know, it's
a million Joe blows. You got to be more specific.
He goes, well, Joe Blow and City Island. All right,
that's that's better. And it was kind of fun, I'll
(40:47):
be honest with you. And I got to the point
where I became pretty good at it. As for Maury anyway,
And uh, and that's and I continued doing that for Maury.
I'm sure he had all the people helping him out,
but I continued doing research internet research form until pretty
(41:09):
much of the day he died in twenty fifteen.
Speaker 4 (41:14):
In this investigation that he undertook and you undertook and
furthered as well. What we have mentioned twenty two disciples.
But what is it that Berkowitz had said, and what
is it that in your investigation you tried to corroborate
and you said that in the introduction and throughout you
(41:34):
talk about officially people will say on the record, but
off the record, you have spoken to many law enforcement
people who have said and supported the ideas that not
only Mary Terry espoused in his book The Ultimate Evil,
but supporting the ideas and the suspicions that you had.
Speaker 2 (41:57):
Yeah, that's I mean, that's very true. True. Of course,
you know that, I guess the two biggest spokes uh
spokespeople for for law enforcement in this case was Joe Borelli,
who was the captain who actually the first letter that
was the first time the SAM letter was actually addressed
(42:20):
to Joe Burrelli and the other the other person was Goffy.
Joe Joe was, Joe was you know, he was quite
a character, and he liked he liked to be on
TV and you know, and he he was really like
the mouthpiece and he just told the line that you
know more Tarry's you know, crazy and anyone who believes
(42:43):
in conspiracy is you know, is crazy. And and we
got our man, and that's the end of the story. Joe.
If you approach him, Joe Burrelli, he will he will
basically tell you the same thing. But he uh, he
kind of kept uh, you know, a little profile, so
(43:03):
you know, you know, I would go on shows like
in the mid nineties and they would have me explaining
my story. Sometimes Maury would be with me explaining the
same thing much more eloquently than I, and then they'd
have Joe Coffee on. I need these two guys and morons,
(43:23):
and I got it got to the point where I said,
I'll never do another interview. If Joe Coffey is involved,
because he is the guy, you know, he's a victim,
everyone feels bad. But he openly admits he didn't see anything.
And is Joe Coffee a highly decorated NYPD detective, who
are you going to believe? And so, you know, every
(43:45):
time we took a step forward, Joe Coffee would come
on TV and take us two steps back and was
extremely frustrating. Yeah so what yeah?
Speaker 4 (43:57):
Uh?
Speaker 2 (43:58):
And and I get it. You know, I don't want
people to think I'm a cop fasher because I'm not.
And I actually met Marlin Hopkins a couple of like
five years ago, and I told him, I said, you know,
you did your job. He was you know, I said,
you your job is to arrest you know, the suspect,
(44:21):
and you did what my beef is you know, five years,
six years, ten years at you know, I'm sorry I
turned this off, you know, ten ten years when all
this new information came out, did the NYPD didn't reopen
(44:45):
the case and investigate It's crazy, it might sound to
Joe Coffee. Investigate all these facts that that Maury and
other people have brought forward. Did I mean it wasn't
I think it was nineteen seventy nine, ten eighty that
the Queen's DA, John Santucci, actually reopened the case based
on additional information. Unfortunately, was shut down six weeks later.
(45:11):
I'm told, I'm told that it was shut down by
the Mayor's office. That I'm not, you know, that's just
what I heard. I don't know how true that is,
but it did get shut down real quick. And John
Santucci's on record saying, you know, I believe that David Barker,
which did not act alone, you know, So it's kind
(45:35):
of it's kind of incredible that that a DA would
say that, and and then thirty years later, no one,
you know, it still hasn't looked at at the information.
Speaker 4 (45:48):
Well, to be fair, and I mean, I'm not to
be fair, but to understand, I think to it, the
killing seemingly stopped, and officially in people's minds, and you
just probably disagree with that, but officially it looked like
they stopped, and Berkowitz had seemingly confessed, and there was
a lot of pressure on police and politicians, and this
(46:12):
guy had, you know, son of Sam entity, had paralyzed
the city.
Speaker 2 (46:19):
Yes, without a doubt, And I actually cut myself off
because I wanted to continue my thought about the law enforcement.
They were in a really bad position, you know. I
mean that serial killers were relatively a new phenomena. They
had very little to go on. I think they did
(46:40):
their best, you know, I have I have no qualms
with that. I do. I do have a little bit
of a as I've said, a little bit of a
qualm of you know, when you're given new information, you
don't follow up on it. But with that being said,
you know, David barker Wood was no help either, because
(47:02):
he changed his story from saying I did everything. It
was a talking dog too. There is no talking dog,
but there is a satanic cult. Two I did somebody.
I did two of the killings, but I didn't, you know,
I didn't do the other. But I was there at
all of them, you know. So he kind of muddied
(47:23):
the waters, which I'm assuming he did that by by design,
you know. So it didn't help our case, that's for sure.
And as far as the shooting, the shooting stopping that
I always find that interesting, and you know, because that's
(47:44):
I get that a lot. You know, Well, how can
you say that the shooting stopped well, think about it
if regardless if it's one person or five people using
the same gun or five different guns, that are all
the you know, similar, If they arrest a guy and
he's in jail for four hundred and fifty years, why
(48:05):
in God's name once you picked up another forty four
caliber and choose somebody, because now you just got the
police back on your tale. So you know, but the
killings did continue, They just use different different ways of
getting rid of people.
Speaker 4 (48:28):
Will you explain in this as well? Because Berkowitz you know,
tells people about and Mary Terry and in interviews that
he explains the Satanic cult. So I'll get you to
explain what he says about the Satanic cult and what
his role was in that cult, and what happened that
particular day involving the parking ticket, and what Berkowitz said
(48:53):
about this Untermeyer park and its rule.
Speaker 2 (48:59):
Right. So that's that's a that's a lot to unpack,
but I will do my best. You know, the day
of the last shooting, the uh Stacey moscow Witz Robert
Violante shooting, as we all know, Berklewitz don't know, ten
(49:19):
minutes a half hour twenty minutes before the shots were fired,
got a parking ticket in front of a fire hydrant.
At that point is supposedly he tried to call the
whole thing off and he was like out voted, and
because of the parking ticket, he became he became the
(49:42):
the fall guy. I think, I'm this is this is
an assumption on my park, but I I get a
feeling that John Carr was the originally the fall guy.
And and the reason I say that his uh, the
letter that you mentioned earlier were where the writer wrote
(50:07):
John John Wheaty's uh you know, rapist and suffocator of
young girls. Well, his his name, he was nicknamed Wheatie's.
And I believe it's because his dad owned answering service
and his sister whose name is wheat Uh, the dad
(50:30):
gave him one line to share. So in the directory,
you know, back in the days when we had phone books, Uh,
it said John wheat and I and again this is
an assumption on my part, I get a feeling his buddies
kind of like made fun of him, Uh you know
John wheat that you know, that's a girl's name, you know,
(50:51):
And and it kind of became his nickname, John Wheaty.
S he was well known in uh in Yonkers as
John Wheaty's so that that's my assumption that he was
the original fall guy. But you know, that's the only
explanation I can think of why his name would be
in that letter.
Speaker 4 (51:11):
But now in your particular case, you mentioned and without explanation,
So I'm going to ask for that explanation. When you
talk to that detective and he said the person that
shot you was either a woman or a ninety pound weekling,
Now why did he say that? And then what did
you find in terms of what Berkowitz had said about
(51:35):
who shot you?
Speaker 2 (51:39):
Right? So you know I didn't really I didn't really
follow up correctly when the detective told me that because
because I know nothing about ballistics. But I should have
asked the question, well, how did you determine that? Because
(51:59):
a lot of law enforce from people I've spoken to, says,
but what does that mean? That? That doesn't make any sense.
You know, you can't tell from ballistics you know who
fired the gun? And so I I you know, unfortunately
this this this fellow passed away, so I can't ask him.
But I have talked to other ballistics experts and uh,
(52:22):
their their assumption is the fact that I'm still alive,
is uh? He draw that he drew that conclusion because
of the wildness of the shooting and and the you know,
the the recoil of a forty four caliber. Yeah, yeah,
you know. And if you look at the other shootings,
uh uh, some of them are I you know, I
(52:45):
don't know what's the correct way to say, but they're
you know, whoever pulled the trigger killed people and there
was no if, vans or butts about it. And other
shootings were like mine. Thankfully, we're just not that accurate.
Speaker 4 (53:02):
Mm hm. And so what did you find in terms
of what Berkowitz said who shot you? Just to again
eerily support what this detective had assumed.
Speaker 2 (53:17):
Right, So you know, you know, a couple of years
after I found this information out from the blissics expert,
I see Barkowitz on TV saying that a woman shot
shot Carl de Naro. So at the time, Maury, Maury
was communicating with Barkowitz on a regular basis, you know,
(53:44):
sometimes through phone calls, but mostly snail mail. And it
was very long and tedious because you know, Maury dried
the three page letter and mail it and he might
not get a response for three or four months. So
this went on for years. I started communication adding what
Barker wits not too long ago with with that question,
(54:05):
and you know, unfortunately he has not told me. But
I do hold out hope that I am going to
get an answer. But what we shall see about that.
Speaker 4 (54:19):
Tell our audience about this conspiracy, what these what Berkowitz
and what Maury Terry believed, well, not what Berkowitz believed,
what Morey Terry believed. What you believe based on what
Berkowitz had said and the investigation that you undertook. What
is this cult and what was its goal? Who are
(54:41):
some of the members?
Speaker 2 (54:42):
You?
Speaker 4 (54:42):
You there are names in this book. There are studios, pseudonyms,
but there are names in this book. Tell us what
this cult was.
Speaker 2 (54:52):
Yeah, that's a that's a really really good question. And
I will give you the best answer I have, which
is in my opinion, not a complete answer. But to
answer the question, I have to go back to mention
retired detective Jim Rothstein.
Speaker 4 (55:12):
He was.
Speaker 2 (55:15):
He was in charge of UH dealing with the runaways
that that was rampant on forty second Street in Manhattan,
and UH they actually called it the Minnesota Strip because
a lot of the young people, mostly girls but boys too,
you know, would hop on a bus and go to
port authority and the pimps would, uh, you know, would
(55:38):
prey on them. And basically, you know a lot of
them came came to New York with you know, five
dollars in her pocket and a knapsack and uh, you know,
the pimps would you know, give give them a room
to stay and give them food, eventually drugs and next
thing you know, there they're prostitutes. So Jim Rosstein started
(56:01):
this in the late sixties and one of his informants
brings him up to Ontamaya Park and Yonkers and says this,
you know, there's not only is their child uh prostitution
and trafficking going on, there's also a Satanic cult in
(56:22):
in in the park that you know uses the park.
Now you have to realize this is seven years before uh,
seven years before the Son of Sam shootings, you know.
And he learned and Jim Rostein learned about the Processed Church.
Who who was part of this. I am not saying
(56:43):
the Processed Church is i Satanic cult, but I think
we can all agree bad people hang out with bad people.
So there's a lot of intermingling of groups, you know,
so you know, unlike you know, unlike Maury originally said that,
(57:04):
you know, the Processed Church you know was the uh
you know, the impetus behind the Son of Sam. I
don't buy that. I think some offshoot, you know, some
members and you know, an offshoot of the process of Church,
uh were involved, but uh but not none of them
are good people anyway. Yeah, so uh it's uh. One
(57:29):
other thing I want to mention is uh and this
is not a disparage of the residents of Younkers in
New York, but uh my, I have a few friends
that live there, lived there now and everyone everyone in
Younkers knows that Young to Meyer Park has been used
(57:50):
I guess like any other park in in in the country.
You know, teenagers go there to smoke pot, drink beer,
have keg parties. Uh, and and some other nefarious groups
used the park for whatever. There's certainly proof that there's
some Satanic worshiping going on, because there's uh, there was
(58:12):
photos that that you can be found in The Ultimate
Evil Maury's book that there's photos of of you know,
an altar with you know, with a pentagram uh, and
you know, you listen to Jim Rothstein and all this
stuff really happened to answer the final part of this
(58:35):
is what was their purpose? I really don't know, uh
the way the way I know it it you know,
it was kind of almost like a multi layer corporation.
And at the bottom was the twenty two Disciples of Hell,
which Barklewitz was one of. And like any know, the cult,
(59:00):
I think they you know, cult leaders will reach out
to the disenfranchised, uh, you know, or for girls, you know,
whatever you're into girls, boys, you know, drugs, parties to
do their bidding. And when is their bidding? Well, we
pretty much know it has a lot to do with
(59:22):
with drugs. When I say drugs, I mean like, you know,
large quantities of drugs and uh, and procuring boys for
you know, for the rich and famous. Uh you know.
And I know that's kind of a far cry from
(59:45):
talking Dogs and David Barkowitz, but uh, you know, in
light of what people have been reading in the last
you know, seven or eight years, it certainly fits in.
It's a lot more believable today than it was thirty
years go because the general public like just pooh poohed
everything you know, they even made up an you know,
(01:00:05):
satanic panic. There was no panic. It really was there,
you know. But it's like you know, the old CIA thing,
misinformation and disinformation to confuse everyone and to make you know,
make everyone that believes in it like you know, uh,
you know, a tinfoil tinfoil conspiracist.
Speaker 4 (01:00:26):
Mm hmm. Certainly you talk about too that that this
is not There are certainly things that you share with
Marey Terry, but this is not. This is different from
some of the things that he said. And in the
Ultimate Evil too you you you say that it's brilliant
three quarters of the way through, but when you get
(01:00:48):
to the California connections and Manson that that that that
lost you and it lost credibility with a lot of people.
You say, as well, with this book, despite your lack
of getting real answers from Berkowitz, is very interesting. You
provide all that you provide all the sketches that were involved,
and it's dramatic. You say that the sketches looking like uh,
(01:01:12):
the one of the cars. I believe John Carr, I believe.
The thing is is that you also include the correspondence
with Berkowitz and you asked him nicely and approached him gingerly,
and then you approached him again and tried to ask
him questions and you really you're hoping for he said,
(01:01:33):
be patient, but you're you really didn't get much from
David Berkowitz, unfortunately, did you?
Speaker 2 (01:01:40):
I did not. I did not. And uh, you know,
it's kind of funny because I heard through intermediary that
he wanted to talk to me, and I batted the
idea around a little, you know, a while. Actually, at
(01:02:01):
one point Maury had set up an interview that I
was going to do with Barkowitz, Maury being the moderator,
and we had everything set up and uh and and
about a week before bark Wood's backed off and that
was it. I. Uh, I got a feeling that, you know,
(01:02:23):
I got it. There's probably gonna be some fence fence mending.
I'm certainly not going to apologize, but uh, I can't
believe that he would be thrilled that I wrote a book.
But on the other hand, uh, the name of the
book is the truth about why I wasn't shot by
David Barkowitz. I think I should get some credit for
(01:02:44):
that in Berkowitz's mind. So we shall see you know
what is what his reaction is, because as you pointed
out in one of the letters, he did say just
be patient. So that that, you know, I take hope
from that that. I'm not really sure what it means,
(01:03:05):
but I am a patient guy. I've been waiting forty
five years, so I can wait another ten or fifteen.
So who knows, Maybe he's going to wait for his deathbed.
I don't know.
Speaker 4 (01:03:16):
You say again a lot of things that you might
not be one hundred percent sure about certain things, but
you are certain certain that he did not shoot you.
David Berkowitz did not shoot you. But you you create
a and have created telling story here to say that
there's much more than the official story, and there's much
(01:03:39):
more that anyone would imagine. And it comes right from
somebody that actually lived through this, and you're still living
this to this day, aren't you.
Speaker 2 (01:03:52):
Yes, Yeah, I mean, I'm not going to lie to you.
It's not I have gone on my life. It was
never all consumed, if you will, but it's never been
far from my mind. And of course, you know, just
in my personal life, you know, you know, people know
me and they find out that I was a victim
(01:04:12):
of son of Sam. You get that. I hate to
use the word celebrity because I'm certainly not a celebrity.
But uh, you know, people you know always wanted like
you know where, to feel like you know where, you
know what happened. You know. That's so even if I
wanted to forget about it, I would never be able
(01:04:33):
to for for more than a week or two. Yeah,
and again I think, don't get me wrong, and.
Speaker 4 (01:04:40):
I think that's going to be more the case with
the with the the release of this book. When was
this book released? And this is a Wild Blue Press release,
So just tell us when it was released and if
you have a Facebook page or how how they can
might show up more about this book.
Speaker 2 (01:05:00):
Okay, so yes, it was published by Wild Wild bo
Wild Blue press dot com and you can purchase the
book through through them or through Amazon of course. The
name of the book is The Son of Sam and
Me The Truth About Why I Wasn't Shot by David Berkowitz,
by Carl Denaro and Brian Whitney. I don't have a website, unfortunately,
(01:05:26):
I was. I was told the book was going to
be published in April, and I'm working on a website.
It's just not ready yet, but it's I have a
very original name. It's called Carldenaro dot com. That was
a joke. But anyway, so I'm hoping by you know,
two or three, by the end of the Buddy, end of March,
(01:05:49):
I will I will have the website up. And it's
got some additional photos that I didn't put in the book.
Uh so I think they're kind of cool. Uh you know,
photos of the Bolka and I was in. There is
one in the book on the passenger side and you
can see the hole in the roof of a car.
But I have some other photos and also you'll be
(01:06:13):
able to buy buy the book directly through me. Of
course I will sign it if you want it. And
I'm also going to put my daughter's my daughter's short
film on the website for sale. It's it's actually a
(01:06:34):
I'm prejudiced. I think it's a compelling sixteen minute film
and it basically covers the night I was shot until
the day March tenth when they announced that the serial killer.
So that will be that will be available in a
few weeks.
Speaker 4 (01:06:54):
Yes, you talked about too that you'll talk about the
secure website, but you say for now, your email Can
I give out your email as you do in the book.
Speaker 2 (01:07:06):
Yes, I'm sorry because that's the new emails that the Gmail. Yeah,
taking up from the yes that that's fine, Yes, yeah,
I just the media yet.
Speaker 4 (01:07:17):
But this is this investigation. This investigation is still not
over for you. So the email is Carl Denario Denaro
pardon me, son of Sam, survivor at gmail dot com.
So thank you very much, Carl Denaro, the son of
Sam and me the truth about why I wasn't shot
by David Burkwitz. Thank you so much for this interview
(01:07:39):
and you have a great evening. Thank you so much too.
Speaker 2 (01:07:41):
Thanks all right, thank you bye. Can I
Judy was boring.
Speaker 2 (00:01):
Hello.
Speaker 3 (00:01):
Then Judy discovered chumpacasino dot com.
Speaker 2 (00:04):
It's my little escape.
Speaker 3 (00:06):
Now Judy is the life of the party.
Speaker 1 (00:08):
Oh baby mama is bringing home the bacon.
Speaker 3 (00:10):
WHOA, take it easy, Judy, The chump of life's for everybody.
So go to chumpacasino dot com and play over one
hundred casino style games. Join today and play for free
for your chance to redeem some serious prices. Jump chumpacasino
dot com. Noe's necessarily, we're poittedt by montem lost terms
and condition to plaice. What's every details?
Speaker 1 (00:30):
Step into the world of power, loyalty and luck.
Speaker 2 (00:35):
I'm gonna make him an offer you can't refuse.
Speaker 1 (00:37):
With family canoli's and spins mean everything? Now you want
to get mixed up in the family business, Introducing the
Godfather at champacasino dot com. Test your luck in the
shadowy world at the Godfather Slough.
Speaker 4 (00:52):
Someday I will call upon you to do a service
for me.
Speaker 1 (00:55):
Play the Godfather now at chumpacasino dot com. Welcome to
the Family vdW group. NOPERD is necessary. If we were
primitted by loss he terms and conditions eighteen plus.
Speaker 5 (01:11):
You are now listening to True Murder the most shocking
killers in true crime history and the authors that have
written about them Gaesy, Bundy, Dahmer, The Nightstalker DTK. Every
week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and
infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with your
(01:33):
host journalist and author Dan Zufanski.
Speaker 4 (01:46):
Good Evening. In nineteen seventy six, a killer who called
himself the son of Sam, shot and killed a half
dozen people and wounded as many more in New York City.
During his crime spree, the madman left bizarre lets mocking
the police and promising more deaths. After months of terrorizing
the city while garnering front page headlines and international attention,
(02:09):
a man named David Berkowitz was arrested. He confessed to
the shootings, claiming to be obeying a demon that resided
in a dog that belonged to his neighbor Sam. Among
the alleged victims was Carl Denaro. On the night he
was shot, Denaro was hanging out with some friends at
a bar when he met up with a woman named
Rosemary Keenan. The couple left the bar and went to
(02:32):
Keenan's car for some privacy However, a few minutes later,
the windows of the car exploded as de Naro was
shot in the head by an unseen assailant. Miraculously, Denaro
survived the attack. When Berkowitz was arrested, he was charged
with trying to kill Denaro. However, there was a twist.
Although he confessed to the other shootings after his conviction,
(02:55):
Berkowitz denied attacking Denaro. Now, after years of research, Denaro
is convinced that Berkowitz was telling the truth and that
someone else tried to kill him. The book that we're
featuring this evening is The Son of Sam and Me
The Truth About Why I Wasn't shot by David Berkowitz,
with my special guests, investigator and author Carl Denario. Welcome
(03:18):
to the program, and thank you so much for this interview.
Speaker 2 (03:21):
Carl Denaro, Thanks Dan, thanks for having me.
Speaker 4 (03:26):
Thank you so much for this. First off, you talk
about in the book before we get to the Faithful Day,
obviously that you became inextricably involved with the Son and
Son of Sam story, and also this case you give
credit to your daughter, Casey so many years later, your daughter,
(03:50):
how was she an influence? What happened and why in
this project that she had as a film student. What
inspired you to write this book?
Speaker 2 (04:05):
Well, I've got her on an idea of writing a
book for many, many years, but I never really felt
I had a story that other people would be interested in.
Along about twenty fifteen, my daughter was a film student
at the time, had to produce a student thesis film
(04:28):
and she decided to do a story on me. So
through her interview interview with me and my friends, my family,
a lot of questions that never really were asked to
me or I really thought about, came up and got
(04:51):
me thinking. By the time, by the time she was
done with the script, I realized that there was I
did have a story and I did have a book.
She eventually finished the film, and it's a short film
sixteen minutes called Carl Very Original, and I went on
(05:13):
to win a few awards. She won the New York
Women's Film Award, TV Emerging Female Filmmaker Award, and she
won a student grant from the National Boarder Review. I
was also in the movie as a detective Blues, who
is obviously a real character, so that was kind of
(05:34):
cool to get my face on camera.
Speaker 4 (05:38):
Yes, you said too that this book was this. You know,
this is an incredible book project to endeavor to do,
and it was a little more difficult than even might
have thought. Tell us about the help you got from
author Brian Whitney.
Speaker 2 (05:56):
Sure, so, yeah, the book was difficult for me to
write on a few levels. First off, me and I
never wrote a book before, and I took a few
writing classes that my daughter signed me up for, and
I wrote a little bit and I said, oh, this
is this is cool. I can do this. And when
(06:18):
I when I started writing the book, I was lost.
So yeah, So a mutual mutual friend who actually published
a book told me about Brian, and I contacted Brian
Whitney and told him my story, and we met and
(06:43):
we hit it off and we became writing partners. And
the process basically was, you know, I would I would
do the best I could. I'd write five, six, seven,
ten pages and send it to Brian, and Brian would,
you know, smooth everything out and you know, make my
(07:04):
ten pages into twenty or thirty pages. And this process
took close to a year, mostly because of me, not
because of Brian.
Speaker 4 (07:17):
Right now, with this as well, what's very important about
this is a book by Maury Terry who becomes a friend,
and we'll be talking about extensively about Mary Terry's influence
in this and your friendship and the investigation that you
both undertook to find out the truth that now has
(07:38):
come to light in this book Son of Sam and me.
Let's talk about what you're not trying to sell us
on in this book, but also what was uncovered when
you read Maury Terry's book The Ultimate Evil.
Speaker 2 (07:57):
Okay, So that breaks me to another difficult part of
writing this book. As I started writing, I realized that
I wanted to tell my story and how it affected
my life over the last forty five years. And I
(08:17):
realized very quickly that I can't do that without explaining
the Son of Sam shootings. So I started writing about
each shooting, and halfway through, I said, I don't want
to rewrite The Ultimate Evil. That's not my goal. So
that became very difficult, not you know, I mean, obviously
(08:39):
it's the same case, so a lot of the same
information is there. But I really wanted to write, you know,
the story from my viewpoint. I also wanted to bring
forward to the general public the conspiracy theory which has
been I don't want to say, debunked, but it's been
(09:02):
poopooed by the press and by the police for since
Mary Terry's book came out in nineteen eighty seven.
Speaker 4 (09:10):
Right now, you talk about the official story, and people
that followed this case know that there was an official
story early on about a dog. We've referenced in the introduction.
There was the official story when you were were attacked
(09:33):
and afterwards, what was the official story that you heard
following that before they made any kind of connection to
this forty four caliber killer?
Speaker 2 (09:45):
Is sure the original story I was the second It
turned out I was a second victim shop by son
of Sam, but there was no son of Sam at
the time, so it appeared to the police that was
a random shooting. And the fact that I, you know,
I smoked pot, I had long hair, and the girl
(10:10):
I was with her father was a detective and he
was assigned to my case. So his immediate his immediate
reaction was it took a drug deal gone wrong, and
that certainly was not the case. But I didn't know
(10:32):
who shot me, so I really didn't have much defense.
That went on for six months from October twenty third,
the day I was shot, until March tenth, nineteen seventy seven,
when Police Commissioner Cod and the mayor Mayor A Beam
(10:53):
had a press conference and said, we have a serial
killer and we were able to link five random shootings
to this serial killer. So for six months I was,
you know, on the charts when the police department as
you know, a drug dealer.
Speaker 4 (11:15):
Let's let's get to your Let's get to your particular case,
because there's no way anybody can imagine how you would
be depicted as a or this case is a drug
deal gone bad. I laugh at that hilarious depiction all
the time. Drug deal gone bad sounds like everything was
done in Mexico with hotel or something, you know. So
let's let's talk about yourself. This is this is incredible.
(11:37):
This is the last night before you left to join
the air Force. So tell us about this air force
and who you were. You had, you were long haired,
you talk about smoking pot. Tell our audience who you
were at this time in nineteen seventy six and this night,
particularly October twenty second, nineteen seventy six. Who were you
and what were you doing and how did you up
(12:00):
meeting with Rosemary Keenan who his father just happened to
be a detective.
Speaker 2 (12:07):
Yeah, that's you know, I was twenty years old, I said,
long hair, you know, finel Sharts jeans. You know, I guess,
the last of the hippies from the sixties. And you know,
I had dropped out of college at you know, a
few mineral jobs that I didn't really I said, there's
(12:30):
no you know, there's no future here, and I decided
to join the Air Force. So I joined. I enlisted
in the Air Force, and they gave me what they
call a deferred reporting date. So they gave me I
was sworn in in August of seventy six, and my
(12:53):
report date was October twenty eighth of seventy six. And
unfortunately for me in the Air Force, I was shot
on the twenty third, five days before I was to
report to basic training.
Speaker 4 (13:08):
Mm hmm.
Speaker 2 (13:12):
So as far as the night, the night of the
the the event, I was just hanging out with my friends.
We went to a party and it wasn't really that good.
So we went back to the bar Pex bar and
grill that we hung out at and ran into Rosemary,
who had known from from college. We had you know,
(13:32):
we we've gone out on a few dates but we
certainly weren't dating. But uh, yeah, we you know, we
hung out for a little bit at the bar, had
a few drinks, and then we decided to leave in
h in her Volkswagen, and you know, we you know,
we drove around the neighborhood. It was my neighborhood, not hers,
(13:55):
and with no particular place in mind. Unlike some of
the reports that you might have heard, this was not
a you know, a lover's lane type thing. It was
it actually four of my friends lived on that block.
It you know, it just we just wound up there
and we were there for maybe I don't know, three
(14:17):
four or five minutes, and the next thing, I know,
the all the all the class in the car exploded,
and uh and I knew we were in trouble. And
so it's a very surrealistic feeling because I did not
know that I was shot, but I knew we were
in trouble. And you know, I yelled at Rosemary to
(14:38):
start the car up, and and she did and and
I passed out for ten fifteen seconds and she was
when I when I came to, she was in a
tizzy because she had no idea where she was. So
I directed her back to the bar and got out
of the car, walked in and uh uh, this is
(15:01):
all this is all crazy, because you know, I have
I have a bull wounded in the back of my head.
I have no idea how I possibly could have gotten
out of the car and walked into the bar, but
I did. And uh yeah, And when I walked in,
the guy at the door said, you know, look good,
and I said, I don't feel good. I think the
car exploded. And with that my head went down and
(15:25):
my warm hair was holding all this blood and I
you know, at the time, I just had blood on
my arms and from the class shorts. And when everyone
in the bar saw that, and it's like, well, you know,
we got to get him to the hospital. So we
a friend of mine drove me to a Flushing, Flushing
(15:46):
hospital and they took care of me there in the
emergency room.
Speaker 4 (15:53):
You talk about that we didn't mention is that for
some reason you were paranoid. And but you know, Jesus said,
seventy six, you threw this bag of weed out the window.
And this will be important a little bit later. Yes, yeah,
it'll be important later when you when you get too
honest for your own good. So now you're you're you're.
(16:15):
Now you're at the hospital here, put you on a gurney,
taking an examiner, so they realize that the extent of
your injury you still don't know. But you say too
that you never heard a gunshot. You just realize the
glass exploded, so you never really heard it. You never
heard a gunshot previous to that. This Marlon Hopkins is
(16:36):
a homicide detective from NYPD. He comes to investigate, but
then when they find out you're not dead, he takes
off apparently. And and because the doctors say you're going
to be stabilizing, you're going to make it through. So
now what happens in terms of the police investigating this.
You talked about when I'm a little while ago about
(16:59):
how they thought it was a drug deal gone bad.
So now we at least we know the audience knows
that you threw this bag of weed out. But yes,
why on earth would they think this is a drug
deal gone bad? Where do they get that idea?
Speaker 2 (17:13):
Well, they got him from me. Unfortunately, the next day
or actually later in the morning, Detective Keenan, Rosemary's dad
and Detective Blues, his partner, came to my room and said,
you know what happened. I said, I don't know. And
(17:34):
he said where did it happen. I said one hundred
and sixtieth Street and thirty third Avenue. So they they left,
and they came back about an hour later and threatened
to arrest me if I didn't tell him the truth.
And I'm like, what are you talking about? And he said, well,
we went from one sixtieth Street to one seventy second
(17:56):
Street and we didn't find any you know, any glass
or anything. So when they said that, it dawned to me.
I said, oh, it was one hundred and fifty ninth Street,
not one hundred and six sixtieth Street. And they looked
at each other and because basically, you know, they went
twelve blocks in one direction, didn't think to go one
(18:18):
block the other direction. And as a parting shot, because
that's my nature, I said, and by the way, I
threw a bag of weed out so you might find that, so, which,
like I said later on, that probably was the smartest
thing to say. But that's how they found out about
the weed. And by the way, they never found the weed.
Speaker 4 (18:41):
Someone did, Yeah, somebody did. Yests now, now, Detective Keenan
now you you say that you already knew him, you
recognized him, you knew who he was. So he wasn't
too happy that his ardor was involved in this situation,
especially not knowing from where it came from. So he
(19:02):
assumed that it had some kind of drug relation or
he was just looking at you. So how do they
proceed with this investigation in terms and your participation and
what you find out about this supposed forty four caliber.
Speaker 2 (19:19):
Killer as well? You know, basically there is one more meeting.
When I'm I was in the hospital for three weeks,
and they came back to my mom's house where I
was living, and handed me a list of I don't know,
maybe seventy five one hundred names, and it was basically
(19:41):
a list of people who had been arrested in my neighborhood.
And I did recognize a lot of the names. Most
of them were like ridiculous, you know, stolen bike, public intoxication,
a vagaweed, you know, nothing major. And I couldn't believe
that somebody I knew would shoot me. I just didn't
(20:04):
we First of all, I didn't live in that kind
of neighborhood. It was basically an upper middle class neighborhood
that didn't really have any violence, you know, so I
I said, I don't think it's anyone on here. And
of course there was names and there I had no
idea who they were. And that I mean that that
(20:26):
was pretty much the end of that story. And to
add on to that, that was pretty much the That
was pretty much the blessed interaction I had personally with
the NYPD in this case, which you know, it didn't
really bother me back then, but it you know, in
(20:47):
the ensuing years, it kind of puzzled me because when
they arrested Barker Wood, for example, uh, my sister got
a phone call from a reporter saying that they arrested
the son of Sam and it's this guy called David
Berkowitz and she's you know, and my sister didn't live,
(21:09):
you know, she had her own apartment, so she called
my mom's house at two in the morning. And I,
you know, in retrospect, I think it's kind of strange
that I didn't get an official call from somebody in
the police department saying, you know, rest easy, we caught
the guy that you know, we caught the guy to shatcha.
Speaker 4 (21:31):
Now you survived but this it wasn't without some complications. Here, Uh,
just tell us about what they had to do two
before you were released from the hospital and we're out
of danger, per se.
Speaker 2 (21:49):
Sure, well they yeah, it was uh you know, of
course it's seventy six, so the you know, medicine is
a little bit better today than it was then. But
you know, uh, you know, with a head injury, there
was there was no painkillers to be had. It was
tiling oil, which really believed me. It really didn't help,
(22:14):
you know, did. I developed like a little bit of
a nervous text shaking my you know, my leg up
and down, and I was in I was in pretty
bad pain for I'd say about you know, a week,
five days, seven days, and then they they had to
come in about a week into my hospital's stay. They
(22:36):
the nurse and the doctor would come in like every
other day with this huge needle and draw a fluid
from the back of my skull that was building up
around my brain. And that that was almost as painful
as being shot, I could tell you that. And uh yeah,
so you know I wound up staying in the hospital
(22:58):
for three three weeks and then I was released with
the instructions that I have to stay in the house.
I can't go out because there's only a thin piece
of skin protecting my brain because the bullet put a
(23:19):
hole about a size fifty cent piece in the back
of my head. And then they told me in January,
actually January twentieth, once a swelling had gone down, they
would insert a plate to cover the hole that the
bullet made. So that was, yeah, that was a long
(23:40):
three months.
Speaker 4 (23:44):
Now you talk about then you write about July twenty ninth,
the attack before yours, because you guys were second, You
and Rosemary were second. But this is July twenty ninth,
nineteen seventy six. Donal Lorie, she's eighteen years old, their
friend Jody Valenti, and they're at a disco and so
a man approaches them. He pulls out a gun from
(24:04):
a bag, approaches down and shoots donn and she's instantly dead,
and Valenti is shot in a thigh and she survives.
What is the description of that perpetrator at that time,
July twenty ninth, nineteen seventy six.
Speaker 2 (24:22):
Well, the description of a shooter pretty much, as it
turned out, pretty much described David Barkowitz. They did have
a suspect, Donna's ex boyfriend who just I know this
is bizarre, but he just happened to own a forty
(24:44):
four caliper gun and they had broken up. Yeah, and
they had broken up. I'm not sure if it's a
few weeks or a few months, but they had broken
up and he was prime suspect. And he kind of
is very strange. He he came in and out of
the news very quick. He never heard of him again.
(25:05):
You know, they exonerated him. I guess he had an
albi whatever. But Uh, I always wondered, you know, later
on when they tied shootings together to a forty four,
what didn't go back to uh to her ex boyfriend
to question him again, And to be honest, they might have,
(25:27):
but I'm not I'm not aware of it.
Speaker 3 (25:30):
Mm hmm.
Speaker 2 (25:31):
Yeah. And you know there was there was some other uh,
you know, the description of from uh from Jody, Uh,
like I said, pretty much matched David Barkowitz. And of course, uh,
you know, years later he admitted that is one of
the shootings that he that he did.
Speaker 4 (25:54):
Were there you were the second I just mentioned. You
were the second group of victims. You and Rosemary where
their witnesses to your attack, and what was that notion of.
Speaker 2 (26:06):
Yeah, there's it's kind of it's kind of funny that I,
you know, of all the victims that survived, I'm the
only one that has, you know, pursued this case. And
there's the least amount of information on my case. So
now there was no there was you know, it was
(26:28):
it was no no eye witnesses. It was two o'clock
in the morning in a very residential neighborhood. I'm sure
I don't know for a fact, but I'm sure somebody
was woken up by gunshot wounds. But I said, we, uh,
Rosemary pulled the car away fast. I think by the
time someone got out of bed and went to the
(26:48):
window or you know, the Volkswagen, Rosemary'svolkswagen was probably gone already.
Speaker 4 (26:56):
After your shooting. There's Donna Dimassi sixteen year old, th
Joanne Lomino eighteen, and Queen's November twenty sixth, nineteen seventy six.
The description is men in twenties who asked for directions
and pull out the gun and fired. A blonde man
ran with the gun. So even by that third set,
(27:17):
we're already seeing these contradictory composites and descriptions, aren't.
Speaker 2 (27:23):
We oh without a doubt, and that shooting actually did
have some of my witnesses. Obviously bald girls survived, although
you know one was paralyzed, but they were both able
to give police a description. And it was also two
(27:43):
neighbors I believe one was outside and on the sidewalk
and saw the guy, this guy run with something in
his left hand. He thought it was a gun, but
he couldn't be sure. And then with somebody else that
looked out the window, and all four people, all four
(28:04):
witnesses basically described the same person. The only difference was
the part was on the left or the part was
on the right. But the police sketches that they produced
from these four witnesses are basically the same picture, except
you know, for a left or right part.
Speaker 4 (28:26):
And you say they the MASSI recovers and unfortunately Lomino
as a paraplegic. And then on January thirtieth, nineteen seventy seven,
Christine Freund and her fiancee John Diel, and this is
in Queens, they didn't see their attacker. May eighteenth, seventy seven,
(28:48):
Virginia Vaskarischian a nineteen shot in the face. And then
you say, at that time, the city is in a
state of panic by this time, aren't they.
Speaker 2 (28:59):
Yeah, yeah, it was, uh yeah, it's you know, like
I said, there was no sun to sam. But when
they the police put together and announced it's a serial killer,
and uh, basically all hell broke less mm hmm.
Speaker 4 (29:18):
And and early on you were made to believe, or
you believe somehow that because you had long hair, tell
us what you think why you were shot?
Speaker 2 (29:32):
Yeah, you know, I guess, you know, later later in
in you know, in that year, it kind of came
they said, well, you know, it's mostly brown, you know,
girls with long brown hair. And I did have long
brown hair, and I was in a passenger seat, so
you know, it was pretty I don't know, pretty much
(29:53):
everyone agreed I was probably shot being mistaken for a female.
Speaker 4 (30:01):
Now you include, of course, about the next layer of this,
or the next twist to this incredible story is when
the forty four caliber killer writes a letter to the
New York Daily News reporter Jimmy Breslin and with the
taunting message and the blood and family, darkness and death,
(30:22):
absolute depravity, forty four Hello from the gutters of New York.
People are familiar with that, and he provides the names,
I guess, a variety of names. Duke of Death, the
Wicked King, Wicker, the twenty two Disciples of Hell, which
we will be exploring, John Wheaty's rapist and suffocator of
(30:44):
young girls. So through all of this, and eventually people
know the story of the parking ticket and the woman
that observes Berkowitz, and so the unraveling, and then he's arrested.
And now when that arrest, obviously tell us how you feel.
(31:09):
But then how long is it before how many years
or how long is it before you hear or tell
us about how you hear about some alternate story to
the one that Berkowitz and the media especially has put out.
Speaker 2 (31:26):
Yeah, I just just to be clear when this happened,
when the shootings happened, I was getting my information except
for the two visits from the NYPD detectives. I was
getting all my information, like everyone else, from the newspapers.
(31:46):
I had no reason to believe anything else was going on.
How would I know the story of you know, thinking
there might be other people involved was a very slow
evolving story, and the first incident was January nineteen eighty
(32:08):
when I went with my lawyer for a civil case
against against David Barkowitz, and basically we were there to
all the victims and lawyers were there to determine what
percentage each person would get based on their injury. And
(32:31):
of course the money they were talking about was just
in case a movie was made or a book was written.
By this lawyer, Harry Lipzig, who was now deceased, but
he was pretty famous lawyer in New York City. He
kept yelling at the judge. He said, there's other people involved.
(32:52):
And I had no idea what he was talking about.
So I asked my lawyer and he said, ah, he goes.
You know, Harry thinks there was a parrasee and there
was other shooters. I'm like, oh, really, I didn't know that.
So that was in nineteen eighty long about nineteen ninety
ninety one, I met retired New York City ballistics detective.
(33:18):
Actually I'm jumping ahead. The next step in this is
reading Marey Terry's book in nineteen eighty seven, where you
know where Morey lays out this conspiracy. You know that
other people were involved, and as you mentioned earlier, twenty
two disciples of Hell. So of course I was fascinated
and I'm like wow, and I thought about, like, you know,
(33:40):
the court in nineteen eighty. I'm like, well, maybe there
is something to this. The third piece was was when
I met the retired ballistics detective and he told me
flat out that he worked on my case and he
in the report he wrote that either a woman or
a ninety pound weakling that fired the shots. He also
(34:04):
told me that the file on my ballistics file is
no longer where it should be and to this day
it's lost forever. So there was three pieces of information
that that led me to this, And of course the
last and final piece to convince me was a TV
(34:27):
interview that Maury Terry did with David Parkowitz, and he
actually says, you know, did you shoe Carl Denaro and
Barker Wood says no, do you know who did? Yes?
And you know what? It was a female? Anybody wouldn't
give her name. So those four pieces of information, you know,
(34:48):
kind of sealed it from me.
Speaker 4 (34:53):
Yeah, certainly, let's use this as an opportunity to stop
for a second to hear from our sponsor, which is
five Fit Fun fab Fit Fun Spring box is centered
around the theme grow Forth, supporting self care and self
growth in the new season ahead. My wife Lisa and
I are planning to grow forth into the spring season
by reconnecting with old friends and getting back into hobbies
(35:16):
and activities that we can plan to do outside. My
wife Lisa was excited to get her Fat Fit Fun
Spring Box and wanting to get ahead start this year
on our garden. So she was anxious to get her
led Indoor Planner by Short Stories and get started planning
seeds indoors for our garden this summer. Lisa loves all
(35:36):
the Fat Fit Fun items relating to skincare, like Grown
Alchemist body cream with Mandarin and rosemary leaf and Josie
Moran one hundred percent pure Argan oil. Lisa loved her
Superi sim Bi Verso with Retinol eight and pure Iconic
Glow moisturizing face and body dry oil. Lisa literally relies
(35:57):
on Fatfit Fun and all the marvelous health and beauty
pros they deliver right to our door. Twenty female founded
brands are in the spring Box this season. You can
choose from a wide variety of products when you order
receive seasonal must haves without leaving home. This fabfit fundspring
box is still exciting for Lisa to receive, even after
(36:17):
receiving fabfit fumboxes for almost four years. Lisa tells everyone
she encounters about the amazing products and the incredible value
and the perks of membership. Or to your spring box today.
Sign up now so you can snag amazing products like
the Led Indoor Planner by Short Stories or Verso super
(36:38):
Iserum when you customize, use coupon code murder for ten
dollars off your first box at www dot fabfitfund dot com.
Use coupon code murder for ten dollars off your first
box at www dot fabfitfund dot com. Now, Carl, we
(37:00):
were just talking about this incredible moment when you realize
there is much more to the story, and that's an
incredible understatement. So how is it that you hook up
with Maury Terry?
Speaker 2 (37:21):
So, yeah, I guess said, I read. I read Mary's book.
I didn't know him. I watched him on TV on
the Inside Edition and his jail house interviews with Barker Woods,
and eventually I got a call from Heraudo Rivera to
be a guest on his show and at the time,
(37:43):
I worked in Manhattan, and they asked me, would you
mind going up to fifty seventh Street and going to
this restaurant called Kennedy's. Uh, and we'll have a call
waiting for you. You you and Maury Terry. So I
went to Kennedy's. I was introduced to introduced to Maury
(38:06):
by the bartender and we decided to forego dinner and
decided to have a few drinks at the bar and
talk about the son of Sam. By the time an
hour later, by the time the limo right, we were
we were like best friends. And and that that was
the beginning of my relationship with with Maury.
Speaker 4 (38:30):
Incredible from the information and Maury Terry managers obviously to
speak to Berkowitz. So what do you find out early
on in terms of this different narrative about who shot
who and what is all involved here?
Speaker 2 (38:52):
Yeah, so, you know, by the time I met Maury,
you know, and you know, in these these different facts
that I have found over the years proving to me
that more than one person was involved, you know that
that was just like the springboard to to continue, you know,
(39:15):
continue investigating. Now, up to this point, I wasn't investigating anything.
The Internet was relatively new, and uh, believe it or not,
in nineteen ninety four, there really wasn't that much that
you could google, but there was stuff there, and obviously
there's a lot more now. Maury was you know, old
(39:39):
school and you know, old school investigative reporter. And you know,
he had a typewriter, you know, an IBM S electric
and he typed away and and he had sources and uh,
you know, he would go to Kennedy's and you know
talk you know, police officials and what have you. So
I was, uh, because of my work, I I was
(40:04):
familiar with the Internet, and I had a computer at home,
and I offered to help him because I was shocked
that he was able to put this book together and
do all his research with no Internet. So so he
started feeding me. He didn't even have a cell phone
just by the way. Uh, he started feeding me to
(40:26):
phone calls like names or addresses and says, you know,
look this up, said you know, but he wouldn't really
tell me what I was looking up, and would just
be look up Joe Blow and tell me what you
can find about him. So I said, you know, it's
a million Joe blows. You got to be more specific.
He goes, well, Joe Blow and City Island. All right,
that's that's better. And it was kind of fun, I'll
(40:47):
be honest with you. And I got to the point
where I became pretty good at it. As for Maury anyway,
And uh, and that's and I continued doing that for Maury.
I'm sure he had all the people helping him out,
but I continued doing research internet research form until pretty
(41:09):
much of the day he died in twenty fifteen.
Speaker 4 (41:14):
In this investigation that he undertook and you undertook and
furthered as well. What we have mentioned twenty two disciples.
But what is it that Berkowitz had said, and what
is it that in your investigation you tried to corroborate
and you said that in the introduction and throughout you
(41:34):
talk about officially people will say on the record, but
off the record, you have spoken to many law enforcement
people who have said and supported the ideas that not
only Mary Terry espoused in his book The Ultimate Evil,
but supporting the ideas and the suspicions that you had.
Speaker 2 (41:57):
Yeah, that's I mean, that's very true. True. Of course,
you know that, I guess the two biggest spokes uh
spokespeople for for law enforcement in this case was Joe Borelli,
who was the captain who actually the first letter that
was the first time the SAM letter was actually addressed
(42:20):
to Joe Burrelli and the other the other person was Goffy.
Joe Joe was, Joe was you know, he was quite
a character, and he liked he liked to be on
TV and you know, and he he was really like
the mouthpiece and he just told the line that you
know more Tarry's you know, crazy and anyone who believes
(42:43):
in conspiracy is you know, is crazy. And and we
got our man, and that's the end of the story. Joe.
If you approach him, Joe Burrelli, he will he will
basically tell you the same thing. But he uh, he
kind of kept uh, you know, a little profile, so
(43:03):
you know, you know, I would go on shows like
in the mid nineties and they would have me explaining
my story. Sometimes Maury would be with me explaining the
same thing much more eloquently than I, and then they'd
have Joe Coffee on. I need these two guys and morons,
(43:23):
and I got it got to the point where I said,
I'll never do another interview. If Joe Coffey is involved,
because he is the guy, you know, he's a victim,
everyone feels bad. But he openly admits he didn't see anything.
And is Joe Coffee a highly decorated NYPD detective, who
are you going to believe? And so, you know, every
(43:45):
time we took a step forward, Joe Coffee would come
on TV and take us two steps back and was
extremely frustrating. Yeah so what yeah?
Speaker 4 (43:57):
Uh?
Speaker 2 (43:58):
And and I get it. You know, I don't want
people to think I'm a cop fasher because I'm not.
And I actually met Marlin Hopkins a couple of like
five years ago, and I told him, I said, you know,
you did your job. He was you know, I said,
you your job is to arrest you know, the suspect,
(44:21):
and you did what my beef is you know, five years,
six years, ten years at you know, I'm sorry I
turned this off, you know, ten ten years when all
this new information came out, did the NYPD didn't reopen
(44:45):
the case and investigate It's crazy, it might sound to
Joe Coffee. Investigate all these facts that that Maury and
other people have brought forward. Did I mean it wasn't
I think it was nineteen seventy nine, ten eighty that
the Queen's DA, John Santucci, actually reopened the case based
on additional information. Unfortunately, was shut down six weeks later.
(45:11):
I'm told, I'm told that it was shut down by
the Mayor's office. That I'm not, you know, that's just
what I heard. I don't know how true that is,
but it did get shut down real quick. And John
Santucci's on record saying, you know, I believe that David Barker,
which did not act alone, you know, So it's kind
(45:35):
of it's kind of incredible that that a DA would
say that, and and then thirty years later, no one,
you know, it still hasn't looked at at the information.
Speaker 4 (45:48):
Well, to be fair, and I mean, I'm not to
be fair, but to understand, I think to it, the
killing seemingly stopped, and officially in people's minds, and you
just probably disagree with that, but officially it looked like
they stopped, and Berkowitz had seemingly confessed, and there was
a lot of pressure on police and politicians, and this
(46:12):
guy had, you know, son of Sam entity, had paralyzed
the city.
Speaker 2 (46:19):
Yes, without a doubt, And I actually cut myself off
because I wanted to continue my thought about the law enforcement.
They were in a really bad position, you know. I
mean that serial killers were relatively a new phenomena. They
had very little to go on. I think they did
(46:40):
their best, you know, I have I have no qualms
with that. I do. I do have a little bit
of a as I've said, a little bit of a
qualm of you know, when you're given new information, you
don't follow up on it. But with that being said,
you know, David barker Wood was no help either, because
(47:02):
he changed his story from saying I did everything. It
was a talking dog too. There is no talking dog,
but there is a satanic cult. Two I did somebody.
I did two of the killings, but I didn't, you know,
I didn't do the other. But I was there at
all of them, you know. So he kind of muddied
(47:23):
the waters, which I'm assuming he did that by by design,
you know. So it didn't help our case, that's for sure.
And as far as the shooting, the shooting stopping that
I always find that interesting, and you know, because that's
(47:44):
I get that a lot. You know, Well, how can
you say that the shooting stopped well, think about it
if regardless if it's one person or five people using
the same gun or five different guns, that are all
the you know, similar, If they arrest a guy and
he's in jail for four hundred and fifty years, why
(48:05):
in God's name once you picked up another forty four
caliber and choose somebody, because now you just got the
police back on your tale. So you know, but the
killings did continue, They just use different different ways of
getting rid of people.
Speaker 4 (48:28):
Will you explain in this as well? Because Berkowitz you know,
tells people about and Mary Terry and in interviews that
he explains the Satanic cult. So I'll get you to
explain what he says about the Satanic cult and what
his role was in that cult, and what happened that
particular day involving the parking ticket, and what Berkowitz said
(48:53):
about this Untermeyer park and its rule.
Speaker 2 (48:59):
Right. So that's that's a that's a lot to unpack,
but I will do my best. You know, the day
of the last shooting, the uh Stacey moscow Witz Robert
Violante shooting, as we all know, Berklewitz don't know, ten
(49:19):
minutes a half hour twenty minutes before the shots were fired,
got a parking ticket in front of a fire hydrant.
At that point is supposedly he tried to call the
whole thing off and he was like out voted, and
because of the parking ticket, he became he became the
(49:42):
the fall guy. I think, I'm this is this is
an assumption on my park, but I I get a
feeling that John Carr was the originally the fall guy.
And and the reason I say that his uh, the
letter that you mentioned earlier were where the writer wrote
(50:07):
John John Wheaty's uh you know, rapist and suffocator of
young girls. Well, his his name, he was nicknamed Wheatie's.
And I believe it's because his dad owned answering service
and his sister whose name is wheat Uh, the dad
(50:30):
gave him one line to share. So in the directory,
you know, back in the days when we had phone books, Uh,
it said John wheat and I and again this is
an assumption on my part, I get a feeling his buddies
kind of like made fun of him, Uh you know
John wheat that you know, that's a girl's name, you know,
(50:51):
And and it kind of became his nickname, John Wheaty.
S he was well known in uh in Yonkers as
John Wheaty's so that that's my assumption that he was
the original fall guy. But you know, that's the only
explanation I can think of why his name would be
in that letter.
Speaker 4 (51:11):
But now in your particular case, you mentioned and without explanation,
So I'm going to ask for that explanation. When you
talk to that detective and he said the person that
shot you was either a woman or a ninety pound weekling,
Now why did he say that? And then what did
you find in terms of what Berkowitz had said about
(51:35):
who shot you?
Speaker 2 (51:39):
Right? So you know I didn't really I didn't really
follow up correctly when the detective told me that because
because I know nothing about ballistics. But I should have
asked the question, well, how did you determine that? Because
(51:59):
a lot of law enforce from people I've spoken to, says,
but what does that mean? That? That doesn't make any sense.
You know, you can't tell from ballistics you know who
fired the gun? And so I I you know, unfortunately
this this this fellow passed away, so I can't ask him.
But I have talked to other ballistics experts and uh,
(52:22):
their their assumption is the fact that I'm still alive,
is uh? He draw that he drew that conclusion because
of the wildness of the shooting and and the you know,
the the recoil of a forty four caliber. Yeah, yeah,
you know. And if you look at the other shootings,
uh uh, some of them are I you know, I
(52:45):
don't know what's the correct way to say, but they're
you know, whoever pulled the trigger killed people and there
was no if, vans or butts about it. And other
shootings were like mine. Thankfully, we're just not that accurate.
Speaker 4 (53:02):
Mm hm. And so what did you find in terms
of what Berkowitz said who shot you? Just to again
eerily support what this detective had assumed.
Speaker 2 (53:17):
Right, So you know, you know, a couple of years
after I found this information out from the blissics expert,
I see Barkowitz on TV saying that a woman shot
shot Carl de Naro. So at the time, Maury, Maury
was communicating with Barkowitz on a regular basis, you know,
(53:44):
sometimes through phone calls, but mostly snail mail. And it
was very long and tedious because you know, Maury dried
the three page letter and mail it and he might
not get a response for three or four months. So
this went on for years. I started communication adding what
Barker wits not too long ago with with that question,
(54:05):
and you know, unfortunately he has not told me. But
I do hold out hope that I am going to
get an answer. But what we shall see about that.
Speaker 4 (54:19):
Tell our audience about this conspiracy, what these what Berkowitz
and what Maury Terry believed, well, not what Berkowitz believed,
what Morey Terry believed. What you believe based on what
Berkowitz had said and the investigation that you undertook. What
is this cult and what was its goal? Who are
(54:41):
some of the members?
Speaker 2 (54:42):
You?
Speaker 4 (54:42):
You there are names in this book. There are studios, pseudonyms,
but there are names in this book. Tell us what
this cult was.
Speaker 2 (54:52):
Yeah, that's a that's a really really good question. And
I will give you the best answer I have, which
is in my opinion, not a complete answer. But to
answer the question, I have to go back to mention
retired detective Jim Rothstein.
Speaker 4 (55:12):
He was.
Speaker 2 (55:15):
He was in charge of UH dealing with the runaways
that that was rampant on forty second Street in Manhattan,
and UH they actually called it the Minnesota Strip because
a lot of the young people, mostly girls but boys too,
you know, would hop on a bus and go to
port authority and the pimps would, uh, you know, would
(55:38):
prey on them. And basically, you know a lot of
them came came to New York with you know, five
dollars in her pocket and a knapsack and uh, you know,
the pimps would you know, give give them a room
to stay and give them food, eventually drugs and next
thing you know, there they're prostitutes. So Jim Rosstein started
(56:01):
this in the late sixties and one of his informants
brings him up to Ontamaya Park and Yonkers and says this,
you know, there's not only is their child uh prostitution
and trafficking going on, there's also a Satanic cult in
(56:22):
in in the park that you know uses the park.
Now you have to realize this is seven years before uh,
seven years before the Son of Sam shootings, you know.
And he learned and Jim Rostein learned about the Processed Church.
Who who was part of this. I am not saying
(56:43):
the Processed Church is i Satanic cult, but I think
we can all agree bad people hang out with bad people.
So there's a lot of intermingling of groups, you know,
so you know, unlike you know, unlike Maury originally said that,
(57:04):
you know, the Processed Church you know was the uh
you know, the impetus behind the Son of Sam. I
don't buy that. I think some offshoot, you know, some
members and you know, an offshoot of the process of Church,
uh were involved, but uh but not none of them
are good people anyway. Yeah, so uh it's uh. One
(57:29):
other thing I want to mention is uh and this
is not a disparage of the residents of Younkers in
New York, but uh my, I have a few friends
that live there, lived there now and everyone everyone in
Younkers knows that Young to Meyer Park has been used
(57:50):
I guess like any other park in in in the country.
You know, teenagers go there to smoke pot, drink beer,
have keg parties. Uh, and and some other nefarious groups
used the park for whatever. There's certainly proof that there's
some Satanic worshiping going on, because there's uh, there was
(58:12):
photos that that you can be found in The Ultimate
Evil Maury's book that there's photos of of you know,
an altar with you know, with a pentagram uh, and
you know, you listen to Jim Rothstein and all this
stuff really happened to answer the final part of this
(58:35):
is what was their purpose? I really don't know, uh
the way the way I know it it you know,
it was kind of almost like a multi layer corporation.
And at the bottom was the twenty two Disciples of Hell,
which Barklewitz was one of. And like any know, the cult,
(59:00):
I think they you know, cult leaders will reach out
to the disenfranchised, uh, you know, or for girls, you know,
whatever you're into girls, boys, you know, drugs, parties to
do their bidding. And when is their bidding? Well, we
pretty much know it has a lot to do with
(59:22):
with drugs. When I say drugs, I mean like, you know,
large quantities of drugs and uh, and procuring boys for
you know, for the rich and famous. Uh you know.
And I know that's kind of a far cry from
(59:45):
talking Dogs and David Barkowitz, but uh, you know, in
light of what people have been reading in the last
you know, seven or eight years, it certainly fits in.
It's a lot more believable today than it was thirty
years go because the general public like just pooh poohed
everything you know, they even made up an you know,
(01:00:05):
satanic panic. There was no panic. It really was there,
you know. But it's like you know, the old CIA thing,
misinformation and disinformation to confuse everyone and to make you know,
make everyone that believes in it like you know, uh,
you know, a tinfoil tinfoil conspiracist.
Speaker 4 (01:00:26):
Mm hmm. Certainly you talk about too that that this
is not There are certainly things that you share with
Marey Terry, but this is not. This is different from
some of the things that he said. And in the
Ultimate Evil too you you you say that it's brilliant
three quarters of the way through, but when you get
(01:00:48):
to the California connections and Manson that that that that
lost you and it lost credibility with a lot of people.
You say, as well, with this book, despite your lack
of getting real answers from Berkowitz, is very interesting. You
provide all that you provide all the sketches that were involved,
and it's dramatic. You say that the sketches looking like uh,
(01:01:12):
the one of the cars. I believe John Carr, I believe.
The thing is is that you also include the correspondence
with Berkowitz and you asked him nicely and approached him gingerly,
and then you approached him again and tried to ask
him questions and you really you're hoping for he said,
(01:01:33):
be patient, but you're you really didn't get much from
David Berkowitz, unfortunately, did you?
Speaker 2 (01:01:40):
I did not. I did not. And uh, you know,
it's kind of funny because I heard through intermediary that
he wanted to talk to me, and I batted the
idea around a little, you know, a while. Actually, at
(01:02:01):
one point Maury had set up an interview that I
was going to do with Barkowitz, Maury being the moderator,
and we had everything set up and uh and and
about a week before bark Wood's backed off and that
was it. I. Uh, I got a feeling that, you know,
(01:02:23):
I got it. There's probably gonna be some fence fence mending.
I'm certainly not going to apologize, but uh, I can't
believe that he would be thrilled that I wrote a book.
But on the other hand, uh, the name of the
book is the truth about why I wasn't shot by
David Barkowitz. I think I should get some credit for
(01:02:44):
that in Berkowitz's mind. So we shall see you know
what is what his reaction is, because as you pointed
out in one of the letters, he did say just
be patient. So that that, you know, I take hope
from that that. I'm not really sure what it means,
(01:03:05):
but I am a patient guy. I've been waiting forty
five years, so I can wait another ten or fifteen.
So who knows, Maybe he's going to wait for his deathbed.
I don't know.
Speaker 4 (01:03:16):
You say again a lot of things that you might
not be one hundred percent sure about certain things, but
you are certain certain that he did not shoot you.
David Berkowitz did not shoot you. But you you create
a and have created telling story here to say that
there's much more than the official story, and there's much
(01:03:39):
more that anyone would imagine. And it comes right from
somebody that actually lived through this, and you're still living
this to this day, aren't you.
Speaker 2 (01:03:52):
Yes, Yeah, I mean, I'm not going to lie to you.
It's not I have gone on my life. It was
never all consumed, if you will, but it's never been
far from my mind. And of course, you know, just
in my personal life, you know, you know, people know
me and they find out that I was a victim
(01:04:12):
of son of Sam. You get that. I hate to
use the word celebrity because I'm certainly not a celebrity.
But uh, you know, people you know always wanted like
you know where, to feel like you know where, you
know what happened. You know. That's so even if I
wanted to forget about it, I would never be able
(01:04:33):
to for for more than a week or two. Yeah,
and again I think, don't get me wrong, and.
Speaker 4 (01:04:40):
I think that's going to be more the case with
the with the the release of this book. When was
this book released? And this is a Wild Blue Press release,
So just tell us when it was released and if
you have a Facebook page or how how they can
might show up more about this book.
Speaker 2 (01:05:00):
Okay, so yes, it was published by Wild Wild bo
Wild Blue press dot com and you can purchase the
book through through them or through Amazon of course. The
name of the book is The Son of Sam and
Me The Truth About Why I Wasn't Shot by David Berkowitz,
by Carl Denaro and Brian Whitney. I don't have a website, unfortunately,
(01:05:26):
I was. I was told the book was going to
be published in April, and I'm working on a website.
It's just not ready yet, but it's I have a
very original name. It's called Carldenaro dot com. That was
a joke. But anyway, so I'm hoping by you know,
two or three, by the end of the Buddy, end of March,
(01:05:49):
I will I will have the website up. And it's
got some additional photos that I didn't put in the book.
Uh so I think they're kind of cool. Uh you know,
photos of the Bolka and I was in. There is
one in the book on the passenger side and you
can see the hole in the roof of a car.
But I have some other photos and also you'll be
(01:06:13):
able to buy buy the book directly through me. Of
course I will sign it if you want it. And
I'm also going to put my daughter's my daughter's short
film on the website for sale. It's it's actually a
(01:06:34):
I'm prejudiced. I think it's a compelling sixteen minute film
and it basically covers the night I was shot until
the day March tenth when they announced that the serial killer.
So that will be that will be available in a
few weeks.
Speaker 4 (01:06:54):
Yes, you talked about too that you'll talk about the
secure website, but you say for now, your email Can
I give out your email as you do in the book.
Speaker 2 (01:07:06):
Yes, I'm sorry because that's the new emails that the Gmail. Yeah,
taking up from the yes that that's fine, Yes, yeah,
I just the media yet.
Speaker 4 (01:07:17):
But this is this investigation. This investigation is still not
over for you. So the email is Carl Denario Denaro
pardon me, son of Sam, survivor at gmail dot com.
So thank you very much, Carl Denaro, the son of
Sam and me the truth about why I wasn't shot
by David Burkwitz. Thank you so much for this interview
(01:07:39):
and you have a great evening. Thank you so much too.
Speaker 2 (01:07:41):
Thanks all right, thank you bye. Can I
Popular Podcasts
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
The Breakfast Club
The World's Most Dangerous Morning Show, The Breakfast Club, With DJ Envy, Jess Hilarious, And Charlamagne Tha God!