February 11, 2024 • 60 mins
For some of you, this may be your first time hearing Greg, while others of us have known this God-graced communicator for a couple of decades. In a living room setting, Greg shares his understanding of biblical hospitality from his experience, study and, more importantly, how it plays out in real life.
“Hospitality is the most often mentioned good work in the New Testament… in the middle of God's heart is a spirit of hospitality.”
In this session, Greg offers some thoughts to ponder with open questions and mindful responses in a dialogue with those present. In his transparent teaching style, Greg offers food to chew on – or, as he calls it – “a theory.”
“I burn out at least once a year. I get depressed for a month or two, and I don't function very well …. burnout is not a theory for me. It's something that I've lived through over and over and over again because I'm a slow learner. Here's my theory….”
Dr. Greg Mitchell is the Sr. Pastor of EN Vancouver, where he and his wife Debbie have raised three biological children and seven other children. He contributes greatly to the EN Seminary with his passion for ‘Relational Theology’.
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Episode Transcript
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Greg Mitchell (00:04):
Here we go.
I'm sorry I have to use thisI'd much rather not, but it's
great to see some I won't sayold faces that's not very nice,
but faces I've seen before andsome new faces.
Brent just here.
If you want to know thedifference between Brent's
personality and mine, this isBrent's wallet and this is my
(00:29):
wallet, and I just feel likethat says everything right there
.
This is how we're differentfrom one another, but the truth
is, this is what I need in mylife and yeah, that's right.
(00:51):
I wasn't going to go there, butBrent and I have been very good
friends for a long time and forlots of reasons, but one of them
is I just need him in my life.
I'm quite a linear kind ofperson, but what I value are
(01:14):
deeply relational things.
So I've needed Brent in my lifeto keep reminding me about
what's true and really to havesomebody to live it out with,
that approaches the same thingsfrom a different perspective,
and I'm so grateful for hisfriendship, for his leadership
in my life, and that we've beenable to journey through all of
(01:37):
our mistakes and messes and justcome out the other side not
just appreciating each other,but still being able to pull in
the same direction.
I just think is a huge gift tome.
So, brent, thank you so muchfor your friendship.
It means a lot to me.
I was expecting to just have aconversation with a few people,
(02:01):
so I'm hoping that that canstill be true.
I have a couple stories, acouple thoughts, but I'm really
more interested in us talkingabout these things together.
A number of years ago now, wehad a woman come from mainland
China.
I'm from Vancouver.
(02:21):
She came to Summit FraserUniversity, came to Christ there
and became a campus missionaryin our church.
Jessica, not Gao, not anymore.
She got married, so she's outon the SFU campus and she's now
going to be an evangelist forJesus.
And so she comes up to a whitedude which was her first problem
(02:44):
, anyways, but very differentand so she comes up to a white
dude, and she comes up to himand she says Jesus loves you.
And the dude says well, whywouldn't he?
I mean.
I'm a great guy.
What's there not to love?
And so he just went on a littlebit explaining how great he was
(03:05):
.
And then Jessica says well,actually you're a sinner.
I mean, she's just new, so it'sjust God's love you and you're
a sinner, like within a fewminutes.
But and so this guy says he says, look, what you Christians call
sin, I call solutions.
(03:25):
He says whenever I don't dowell at work, I lie.
He says it works well, all thetime I just lie.
And he says it's served me verywell.
When I'm not feeling very goodabout myself, I gossip and I
feel better.
And if I'm stressed out, that'swhen I smoke weed, and if I
(03:50):
have, you know, physical desires, that's why I go to the bar and
pick up somebody.
And he says what you Christianscall problems, I call solutions
.
And she comes back to our teammeeting and she says you know
what do I do with this guy?
I don't know, how do you, howdo you even begin to have a
(04:12):
journey toward faith andrelationship with Christ?
And so here's something thatdawned on us back then and I've
been thinking about it for avery long time since then is
that gospel solutions requiregospel problems, and unless we
(04:36):
have the right problem, jesusnever really makes sense.
And so we talk with peopleabout how much God loves them,
or they should repent andbelieve, or those kinds of
things, and, at least in my city, it often falls on deaf ears
because people really aren'tvery interested.
(04:57):
And what we realized is that wehad to actually back up the
process.
By the way, it's so great to bein Canada.
I can say process withoutpeople giggling.
When I'm in the States, it'salways process and I think
that's very funny.
They think it's cute.
When I say process, it annoysme every time.
But so what we needed to do wasto back up the process and say
(05:21):
maybe our first responsibilityis to give people better
problems before they'll receivebetter solutions.
And so then the questionbecomes what's the problem?
What's the problem that Jesuscame to remedy when it says, for
(05:42):
God's love, the world, he gaveus only something.
What did the Father give theSon for?
Like what's going on?
That would first of all requiresuch a drastic response on
God's part.
And so I find it interestingand maybe you can add to this
list what people think theirproblem is.
(06:03):
So, and this is just, I'lltouch hot buttons just more for
the point of conversation thananything else.
But what I notice lots of peoplecome to Christ for would maybe
be under the banner of successthat I have, I want to be.
(06:27):
They can even use Christianlanguage.
I want to be all that God hascalled me to be, and so I need
the work of the Spirit and Jesusto somehow enable me to become
successful, and God kind of, atthat point, becomes a resource
(06:48):
for their own personaldevelopment.
And so that one doesn't maketoo much sense to me, although I
think it's also true God does.
I was just listening to aspeaker say that he was
referencing King David, andsomebody comes up and says to
David God is going to give yousuccess, success, success, and
(07:11):
we're all David's children, andso that's what God wants to give
us as well.
So that's true, so there'struth to it, and so maybe the
primary problem I don't thinkit's the primary problem, but it
is a problem would be ourpersonal success.
Maybe another one in my cityit's a super big deal, and it
(07:37):
would be called mental health,and so I have a counseling
background that I'm incrediblygrateful for.
My mentor is a psychologist,and so I've been steeped in
these things for a long time andI really care deeply about this
(07:58):
.
But mental health and we canmaybe discuss this if you want
to go deeper but mental healthis just like one degree off of
gospel health, it's just alittle different.
But people will assume thatmental health is exactly the
same as what Jesus came to bring, and so they'll go on a journey
(08:22):
of self-awareness and workingthrough having an image of self
and of God and of others thathas been refined and perhaps
purified by scripture andministry.
But that can be a problem thatthey think is the primary
(08:44):
problem that Jesus came to solve.
And again, we can talk aboutthis because I'm not trying to
bash mental health anymore thansuccess, but I don't think it's
the core problem.
And then another one that I'vespent many years exploring and
(09:05):
have found great personalbenefit in would be maybe what
could be described as innerhealing, slightly similar to
mental health, but it was for mean inward journey of finding
peace within my soul throughdeliverance from demonic
(09:28):
oppression and forces andfinding healing through the
power of the Holy Spirit, andthose moments for me have been
transformational.
They changed my life.
But I found that as I ministerto people in that kind of vein
(09:49):
which, again, I'm trying toemphasize that they're helpful
but maybe not the core issue.
But, as I that people actuallyended up chasing after freedom
instead of Jesus, and it justwas slightly.
It just went slightly, justslightly off, and then I found
that people kept coming backagain and again for more and
(10:11):
more inner healing and Iwondered why it didn't stick.
And then it got me wonderingwhether maybe even that wasn't
actually the core problem thatthe gospel came to remedy Again,
important, but maybe not thecore problem.
And so I think the core problemwould be summarized in St
(10:37):
Corinthians 5, 18 to 20, thatlet me just read it and then
it's better that way, it'sfaster if I do it this way.
So, oh, this is from God, whoreconciled us to himself through
(11:04):
Christ and gave us the ministryof reconciliation.
That God was reconciling theworld to himself in Christ, not
counting people's sins againstthem, and he is committed to us
the message of reconciliation.
We are therefore Christ'sambassadors, as though God were
making his appeal through us.
So we implore you, on Christ'sbehalf, be reconciled to God.
(11:27):
I think that the core problemthat the Father sent the Son to
remedy through His work and thework of the Holy Spirit.
I think it's reconciliation, Ithink it's a relational problem
(11:49):
and I think that's the mainthing going on.
And when success and mentalhealth and inner healing serve
that deeper problem, they allget redeemed and they all become
super helpful things.
But they're only helpful whenthey're serving something more
profound and I think it'salienation.
So, if you've heard me talkbefore, we have a definition of
(12:12):
sin that's based on Isaiah 59,verses one and two, that sin is
anything that breaks rightrelationship.
Sin isn't an arbitrary list ofdos and don'ts.
It's a God opposes everythingthat opposes relationship, and
then what God came to remedy iseverything that would reconcile
First to God and then to oneanother.
(12:34):
And so I really believe thatthere's only one ministry in the
church, and sometimes inchurches that we have worship
ministry and children's ministry, and I think there's only one
ministry in the church.
It's the ministry ofreconciliation, and unless the
church is serving that ministry,I don't think it's doing
(12:55):
Christian work.
We can run programs and amusekids and have amazing worship,
but unless it leads towardsreconciliation, it can actually
be a distraction to the work ofthe kingdom.
So I think I think that's theproblem and in my city.
(13:15):
We're trying to help them careabout that problem, so that the
gospel would be good news.
But unless they have thatproblem, it just doesn't make
any sense, and so thehyper-individualism that we
experienced, I think, in Canadain general, in a my city at
least in particular, is veryprofound, and sadly, people have
(13:39):
come to befriend it where theirproblems are, because they have
relationship, and they'd preferto have fewer relationships in
order to reduce their problems.
That's one of the primarydifficulties, by the way, with
mental health is that I am neverangry, sad, confused when I'm
(14:00):
alone.
It's only when I have otherpeople around me that life gets
more difficult, and so I thinkthat the gospel is about
reconciliation, and our journeyis to help people have a gospel
(14:22):
problem so that they can receivea gospel solution.
So we're going to talk abouthow to do that in a minute.
But how are you doing with thatidea?
So far, you doing OK, ok.
So the question then becomes howdo we stimulate a need for a
relationship with God and oneanother?
And so I think that, from whatI can understand, the
(14:49):
overwhelming answer is actuallyhospitality.
That what hospitality does isit awakens inside of people's
hearts their need for arelationship, and so Debbie and
I have really devoted our livesto being hospitable people.
She's way better at it than Iam.
I'm an introvert and I thinkabout stuff, but I'm not super
(15:14):
friendly, and so I'm working onit, though I'm only 62, so I
have a few more years left tonail this thing, but my heart
deeply cares for that.
Hospitality is the most oftenmentioned good work in the New
Testament.
It's the most often mentioned.
(15:36):
What I find interesting in theOld Testament is that there were
three primary crimes that theprophets would highlight in
God's people.
It was idolatry, immorality andnot caring for the alien and
(15:57):
the poor.
Like it made the top three,like it's right up there with
idolatry and adultery, was notcaring for the alien, for those
in the outside, for thedisenfranchised.
That's very sobering to me.
That that's in the middle ofGod's heart is a spirit of
hospitality.
He's a welcoming God and hisprimary motivation is that I
(16:22):
would be your God and you wouldbe my people.
That's what's motivating himfrom Leviticus 26 right through
to Revelation 20.
And so we see this as being theprimary mechanism.
I think that awakens people'sneeds.
So we've had I don't knowdozens and dozens of people live
(16:45):
with us.
We have 10 children, and threebiological, and don't tell me it
gets complicated after that.
It's one or two adopted andthen, I think, three foster and
then two other who just livedwith us for years.
They call us mom and dad, andso what we've longed to do is
(17:09):
live an open life, because we'venoticed that people don't
recognize their need for Jesusunless they've tasted of his
love.
I remember there was one guywho's still a very good friend
of ours.
He struggled all of his lifewith same sense of attraction.
When we first met him he was ina relationship.
(17:30):
He broke up, they broke up, andso then he came and lived with
us for a while, and just a well,I just have to say this because
I think it's so funny.
But he was a comedian on cruiseships and so just the funniest
guy you could ever.
One of my favorite jokes of hisand I've said it so many times,
but I still think it's funny hesays Greg, he says I don't
(17:52):
repeat gossip, so I'm only goingto say this once.
I just think that is so funny,I just love that.
Anyways, he came to, he livedwith us, I don't know for how
many months.
Oh OK, so I didn't rememberthat.
(18:15):
And so here's, so it's wellinto him living with us.
And he's having a talk with himone day and he says Greg, I
don't want to live the gaylifestyle anymore.
And so I said to him I'm tryingto be funny.
It wasn't very funny, but Ithought it was funny at the
moment.
You'll always be gay, anyways,I thought I was being funny.
(18:39):
He goes no, no, no, I don'twant to do that, I don't want to
do that anymore.
And I asked why.
He says well, anytime.
So he's kind of very flamboyantand so he says anytime anybody
looks at me, they could see thatI'm gay.
And then they assume that I'm apedophile.
And he says nobody lets me neartheir children and I never get
(19:04):
to experience family.
He says but you and Debbie havelet me into your home and
you've let me play with yourkids and I've tasted of a better
love.
And if this is what the love ofGod is like, he says, this is
way better than the quote,unquote love that I was chasing
for many, many years of my life,and that's just very moving to
(19:32):
me because I love them very much.
So I'll just say one more thing, and then we can talk.
So hospitality, to me, is thedoorway into the kingdom of God.
(19:52):
It allows people to identifyright problems so that they can
have right solutions.
Are you OK with the idea?
Is this making sense?
Ok, there's one morecomplication that I'd like to
introduce and then we can talk.
So, as I said, we have 10 kidsNow and they've come to us in
(20:12):
different kinds of ways, buthere's what we've believed.
We believed that if we coulddemonstrate the love of God to
these children, most of whomhave come from horrendous
backgrounds I can't tell youabout it for lots of reasons for
confidentiality, but if I do, Ijust get so choked up because
(20:33):
it's so horrible what humanbeings have done to one another.
It's not right and it breaks myheart.
So we believed that the remedywould be and it is the remedy,
but I have to qualify it orexpand it at least that we
thought the remedy would beextravagant love.
(20:56):
And so we just love them likeour own kids.
If we're all going on vacation,we don't say if the foster kids
or the other kids don't go withthe no we're just a family, we
call ourselves a forever family,and we treated them as our own
kids.
And then we discovered that theysuper enjoyed that and many of
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them had no intention ofchanging.
And so we thought, oh, theyjust haven't tasted the love of
God enough yet, and so we wouldtry to love them even better.
And then there's thisdefinition that I think is still
the best definition of personalhealth.
It's Matthew 10.8.
Freely, you have received,freely give.
(21:44):
And so I think that they nailedfreely receiving.
I don't think they quite gotalong around to freely give.
That was a bit of a gap intheir relational development,
and so they were happy, happy,happy to receive all kinds
anything.
Our love, money, roof over theirhead, our time, energy.
(22:07):
Thank you so much really, butnever really got around to
giving love freely.
Some of them Feels like the 10lepers, you know.
Let everybody comes back to saythank you.
So here's my question to us Tothoroughly embrace hospitality,
(22:34):
to give away our hearts, I think, in a more robust and profound
way, requires that ourhospitality leads people towards
repentance and faith, that it'spossible to live in such a way
that we can be thoroughly lovingand actually give them the
(22:56):
illusion that we can be trulyloving, that they're mature, but
they're really just living offof our godliness and they've
never really committedthemselves to lay down their
life for their neighbor.
And so what we're in the middleof trying to understand and we
don't really have answers.
So that's why this is a genuinediscussion is how do we exhibit
(23:19):
a spirit of hospitality which Ithink is the heart of God, in a
way that leads others towardsrepentance and faith, where they
would churn toward thatthemselves and do it in a way
that was founded in faith, notjust performance and you know
(23:42):
works, righteousness, but with agenuine trust in the gospel.
So what do you think about that?
How does hospitality produceheart transformation.
I don't know where I want to go.
(24:11):
So this is all good.
I keep thinking about burnoutand you guys burned out doing
that, but what are your thoughtstowards that?
Oh, do I have a thought?
You didn't know that you set meup?
(24:33):
Yeah, he was first hospitalBefore he ever invited us to do
(24:57):
anything.
So this is a theory that we cantalk about as well.
It's just a theory.
So Most people that I know arereally nervous about burnout,
and for legitimate reasons.
I burn out at least once a year.
Usually comes around May, june.
(25:17):
I get depressed for a month ortwo and I don't function very
well Something I look forward toevery year and it's a real
issue for me.
So burnout is not a theory forme.
It's something that I've livedthrough over and over and over
again because I'm a slow learner.
Here's my theory.
(25:43):
So you have Jesus.
This is the story of the womanat the well.
You have Jesus, who isexhausted, right, because he's
been walking for a very longtime.
We know that he's exhausted andtired because his disciples go
off to find some food.
They're tired.
It's been a long day or life.
And then he meets a woman, andnow there's another need in
(26:08):
front of him and he's exhausted.
They have, as you guys all know, an amazing encounter.
And then, and so he offers herliving water, which is
refreshment, right.
And then, so you know,incredible encounter, verse 27
(26:34):
of John 4,.
Just then his disciples returnedand were surprised to find him
talking with a woman, but no oneasked what you want or why
you're talking with her.
Then, leaving her jar of water,the woman went back to the town
and said to the people come seea man who told me everything I
ever did.
Could this be the Messiah?
Then they came out of town andmade their way towards him.
Meanwhile, his disciples urgedhim rabbi, eat something.
(26:57):
Okay, so they can see that he'stired and exhausted and hungry.
Psychologically, we can overlayburnout, perhaps.
And then he says this.
But he said to them I have foodto eat that you know nothing
about.
In a classic fashion, thedisciples then said to each
other because someone hadbrought him food, like totally
(27:20):
missing the point, you know.
So here's my theory Freelyloving others is not exhausting.
Anxiety is when I make it aboutme having to save a soul, or me
having to be a rock star, orwhen I take on responsibilities
(27:40):
that are only the responsibilityof God.
I can't change hearts right, Ican't bring conviction only the
Spirit of God does that.
And so as soon as I start doinghis job, that's a little
exhausting and it leads to myburnout.
But when I'm walking in hiswill, in response to him, then I
find loving others to belife-giving, and that I have
(28:04):
food to eat that you knownothing about.
And this, to me, ties in withthe issue that I discover in my
home, in church and city.
Is that here's the mentality?
I think, because I recognize itin myself is something like
this I need my love tank filledso that eventually I'll be able
(28:28):
to.
Then it'll overflow into lovingothers.
Are you familiar with the theory?
That's never true.
We give in faith.
I never feel full, I never go.
Wow, I am so bloated with thelove of God and I like I give
you a.
(28:49):
God bless you.
If that has happened to you,that's not happened to me.
I'm always hungry and thirstyfor more of him and feel
inadequate in most every moment.
But so my kids don't want to beselfish.
They don't wake up in themorning hoping to be selfish,
but what they do think is I'mnot ready to love yet I need to
(29:10):
receive more yet, and thenthere'll be this magical moment
when it'll spill over intoloving others.
And I wonder if their issue isfear and anxiety as well, that
they're afraid to get burned out, and it's why repentance must
always accompany faith.
It's only by trusting in thework of Christ, in the work of
(29:34):
Christ, are we able to then havethe freedom to love out of our
poverty, not of our amazingriches or whatever it is.
So I think receiving love andgiving love are not tiring.
I think that my flesh pollutesthat and pulls me away from
(29:56):
relationship or makes me over afunction in relationship, both
of which are exhausting thatsteal away the beauty and
life-giving nature of love.
Jose (30:10):
Yeah, it is very interesting that you say that
hospitality is very important.
I think the hospitality, likeyou said, God start hospitality
(30:31):
with the Adam near.
We build this earth to be inlove.
Unfortunately, we see we coverup everything.
For me, hospitality, probablybecause my culture is more
(30:52):
hospitality than Americans.
Greg Mitchell (30:59):
Just say Americans, don't say Canadians,
it's just the Americans.
I feel better about that.
I can only say to everybodyhospitality is a gift from God.
Jose (31:20):
Why I only say to everybody, do you know others?
And I say, do you know others?
And I say I make others but Idon't know others.
It's very difficult because noothers.
(31:42):
I have to be hospital, open myhouse to bring others to my
house, to a place Actually Idon't say to my place, the house
of God, because everything thatis here is not us, it's not God
(32:04):
.
And if I hospital the others,I'm going to start a
relationship with you.
Greg Mitchell (32:14):
That's right.
Jose (32:15):
If I don't have a relationship with any of you, I
make you, but where is the love?
Me to all of you, and that'sthe reason that God is.
The first thing that God wantsis to love the people.
(32:39):
If you don't love the peoplelike James I think it's James
said if you say that you loveGod and you hate your neighbor,
where is the love?
So love is kind of love,unfortunately, the human love
(33:02):
and the love coming from God.
And you was the answer to him.
If I am going to be tired toopen my house, no, why?
Because you love God is in thathouse and I give love to him.
I'm going to learn things fromany of you because I am not
(33:29):
perfect.
I remember one thing that JamesJordan was saying that he was
very burned out until herealized that he was carrying on
all the burdens of the otherpeople.
I am not Jesus, I am not God,god, god.
(33:53):
I think it's a good thing thatI only can do is to pray, and
whatever is trouble in thatknowledge, in that religion, in
that love, I give up to him.
Greg Mitchell (34:13):
Isn't it interesting that when it says in
Matthew 22 that the sum of thelaw and the prophets is to love
God and to love your neighbor, Idon't know that I would have
written that if I was God, Iwould have said the sum of the
law is to receive God's love.
But there's something, and Ithink it goes along with what
you're saying.
There's something about lovingothers that opens us up to the
(34:34):
love of God in a very profoundway and that maybe it's not
nearly as sequential as we thinkit is.
It's actually cyclical orreciprocal.
That as we decide to open upour hearts to love, we find
ourselves experiencing beingloved first by the Father and
then by the people around us invery remarkable ways that it
(34:56):
can't be neatly put I receiveand then I give.
Maybe I mean, according toMatthew 22, it's actually I give
and then I receive, becausethere's something that happens
in your heart when you decide tolove that opens yourself up to
be able to receive love.
And I'm not trying to put itinto a sequence, but it's just
interesting that the two buildoff of one another instead of
(35:19):
our mutually exclusive.
Thanks for your thoughts.
Anybody else, what are youthinking?
Yeah, I sense that maybe a partof being able to love people is
seeing them with God's heart andwith his eyes.
(35:42):
And you know, the scripture saysand I don't think it's all for
the sweet buying by when we seehim, we shall like him.
So perhaps giving love away,even like by faith, what you
were saying a few moments ago isa little glimpse of me seeing
(36:09):
something that humanized wouldnever see, because behind it is
God's love.
And then there's a sense inwhich I see him, so I become
more like him, and part of theprocess of becoming more like
him is receiving his love sogood.
So you know, I'm giving himfaith and I give away and I want
(36:40):
someone to experience the heartof the Father, with his love
and his goodness and hisacceptance and his truth.
Then in that moment somethinghappens that I don't have words
for and part of me somewhere,maybe even here as well, in my
head.
But I see him and perhapsthat's one of the line upon line
(37:05):
changes of I become more likehim because I'm expressing his
heart.
Oh, you're saying that so well,you know, it's the.
It's when the servants say whendid we see you?
And he says what you've done tothe least of these, you've done
(37:27):
to me also, and we didn't seeyou poor, blind or naked, ah,
but what you did to these I got.
You caught the heart of God inthat and it transforms us
because we see him actually inthe act of loving those who are
marginalized on the outside.
And isn't that beautiful.
Even when we're loving others,we still are always receiving,
(37:49):
because it's just what God islike, so beautiful.
Thank you for saying that.
Any other thoughts?
Yeah, nice to see you, butthere's a glow about you, so I
see you as being darker thanthat.
Yeah, yeah, I assume that.
I assume that, Steve, I'm sureyour wife would agree.
(38:10):
That's right.
Steve (38:15):
The thoughts I'm trying to put together, Greg, are my
experience with God has been, inthe last 12 days, 60 years, so
it's constantly called the rest,but I've done more than I've
ever done before.
So there's that normal Godthing where opposites are going
together Sure.
Greg Mitchell (38:34):
Then there's an invitation to receive love and
there's an invitation to givelove.
Steve (38:40):
but the giving of love is done, as you said, in a place
of rest, so striving is actuallyan act of love.
Greg Mitchell (38:48):
That's right.
That's right.
I'm trying to create a healthquality, so what?
Steve (38:53):
I'm trying to put together and because you're
really really good at all.
This stuff is how you lovesomeone, but the second you put
an expectation on them, it'salmost not love anymore.
Maybe I've heard you talk aboutthis before, but it's like we
have a person we're thinking ofhiring.
He's super broken.
So this is a question.
(39:15):
He's super broken.
We can just hire him, love himthrough it, or we can just love
him through him and I'm going tobe broken.
We really want to hire thisperson who's broken, but the
invitation in my mind can't beokay.
If you say this is a prayer.
Now you're in the car, you knowwhat I mean.
Like I actually told him that Idon't even know what this is.
(39:36):
I don't even know what thatmagic sentence does, but I said
I want you to experience lifewhen you're around us and we'll
love you as best as we can, butit can't be great, or one of
these things you're seeking, orone of these things you're
looking for, because then I'mback.
So those are all.
Greg Mitchell (39:52):
That's great, it's even really great.
So here's what's interesting tome and again, you push back on
this because we're just tryingto figure it out together.
I don't think expectations areantithetical to love.
I have lots of expectations ofmyself, of my children, of my
(40:13):
church.
Lots of expectations.
It goes weird when I controlpeople toward those expectations
.
That's a problem.
But the expectations I want mykids to be well, just simply
happy.
That's an expectation.
I want them to be good.
But if I feel like I have tocontrol you toward that
(40:37):
expectation, well then the wholething's messed up.
Keep going.
Steve (40:43):
I desire my kids to be happy.
Greg Mitchell (40:45):
I'm not expecting , if you're not happy, but if
you can glineate the Sure, oh,do you think that they're
different?
Steve (40:55):
Yeah, I think they're what you're saying.
Expectations are good Because Iwant my kids to be happy, but
my expectation isn't the happyof those.
Greg Mitchell (41:04):
I just want to get the land back.
God has expectations.
It says, 1 Peter, that hedesires that all come to know
him.
He expects us to be holy andrighteous, yet he's never
manipulative or coercive in hisexpectations.
So I'm okay with the wordexpectation.
(41:27):
I'm okay with it.
It's just what I do with myexpectations.
And when I start caring moreabout my expectations than I do
about you, it's not loving.
And it's super hard to figurethat out, isn't it?
It's really hard.
It's really hard.
I'm going to ask somebody elseif they have other ideas and
(41:49):
then I'll go back to you.
Person (41:50):
Yeah, it reminds me of the family that I grew up in.
I grew up in a house with fourgenerations and I was the baby
right and my family was notwell-loved.
All those women came frombroken relationships, and so
C-Sola, the marriage, who's over45 years.
He was a fresh person in mylife that ever said I love you.
Greg Mitchell (42:10):
Wow.
Person (42:11):
I didn't miss that because I didn't know about it,
but when I was telling my 30s asa music practice and I felt God
say focus on getting out, thereis no natural vacuum in nature
where it sucks in, he says thinkof your vacuum cleaner.
It doesn't have a sucking motor, it has a blowing out motor and
because you create that flow,it will come in.
(42:32):
And he didn't say give out sothat you'll get.
He just said focus on gettingout and implied was I'll look
after you, honey.
But you know he's trying tosupport me because I'm him from
this.
Oh, please love me, Please careabout me, Please notice me too.
I'm learning about you learningabout you, I'm a granny and my
granny, jean, just kicks in andI just want to love people and
(42:52):
hug them and wow, he's reallydone that.
But that's what he said to meGive out, just focus on that,
not even with an eye to get Justfocus on getting out.
Greg Mitchell (43:05):
It's profound and you just and he never separates
them in his mind.
He never thinks oh, I rememberone time I don't know if you
guys know this but if you'refrom Vancouver, you're not
allowed to like Toronto.
I don't know if you know that.
Do you know that?
It's just a rule?
It's just a Canadian rule.
So I remember we were wantingto start a church.
(43:27):
Brandon and I went out therequite a bit.
We were going to start a churchin Toronto and I remember
praying one day.
I said God, if you want me tomove to Toronto, I'm from.
You know this is like theultimate sacrifice for Jesus,
but if you want me to move toToronto, I'll go.
And this is what I said.
(43:50):
I said I just want you to useme.
And then God responds and hesays I never used anybody.
And I go.
I know, I know it's just a let'snot do the word game thing and
I just you know, I'm just tryingto.
He goes no, he says I never useanybody.
And that just struck me thateven when he's inviting us to
(44:12):
love he's never using.
And there's something beautifulabout what you're describing
that is so clarifying of whatthe heart of God is like.
I just think it's beautiful,brent, I don't know what our
time is like, but Okay, just athought.
Brant Reding (44:34):
I'm going to hear you.
So love others as you loveyourself.
That's your line, and it alwaystakes me back to stories like
Mother Teresa, who suffered herwhole life.
She loved so many people thatnobody even had the compassion
(44:54):
or courage to go, and I rememberas you talked about how she
would see Jesus.
For her there was somethingabout the life of God is in
everyone and I'm not lovingbecause I have to or I need to,
or it's actually him.
And when he starts being in,when he comes across his group
(45:16):
of love others, you loveyourself, and for a while that
felt like well, I got to lovemyself, that whole self care
deal.
Let's get our whole worldtogether and get it all set up.
Now I'm okay and I got 50% nowand I can remember, as you were
(45:38):
talking about, it's just thesilliest thing in the world
Because you talk a lot aboutspiritual worker and things like
that.
He says it's just most of it.
It's just people don't love,Because actually people love.
You'd be probably happy ordrippin' your part of life in
half because you know thosecaret of concerns.
(45:59):
But what if you just actuallywent across the street?
What if you actually went tothat politician?
What if you actually did that?
Greg Mitchell (46:06):
Fascinating and so and I remember him saying it
for hundreds of people.
Brant Reding (46:13):
So I hope you don't think loving yourself
means being selfish.
How do you love yourself?
Well, let me get up, you'll getsome food.
You're not being selfish,you're just living.
It's just thinking of the basicthings, of what living is.
And what would that look like?
Why don't we turn it into thismassive thing?
(46:34):
A hospitality sounds so nice,but you're hospitable to
yourself Unless you're in thatplace where it's so far and it's
, like you know, caught in aroad and I just think, wow, that
really takes away all of thissuper spiritual house being.
But it's incredible how whatyou're saying, greg, is how few
(46:56):
people like my wife and I talkto each other a lot.
This is a lot about how manypeople think they need to keep
soaking in him, and to whatplace, and have they even tried?
But they're so used to.
I think the tri-part is that'swhere I guess you're.
You know, strive to enter hisrest.
The word strive, in its visuallanguage, means act of serenity.
(47:17):
Wow, that being poor, thatmeaning being loved.
And so to go across and love myneighbor, with no agenda to it.
No, I got something for you.
No, you know, it's justliterally, and then it goes in a
thousand different directions.
But that loving yourself part,tell me how that?
(47:37):
Because the guy on the campusgoing, yeah, he loves me.
Because he wouldn't, I thoughthe'd be myself Best.
Person (47:47):
People really love the self, love from the point of
view of somebody who breaks boththeir hair, and to me that says
as unique brothers and sistersat Christ who then in?
The same with self-hatred,self-harm, as you mentioned.
That's got lots.
(48:07):
Best for them.
They do release from that tosee themselves and love my God.
So they're really there for arelease, for healing, for a
down-going, because we're nottoo happy.
So it's a talent for themselves.
Greg Mitchell (48:23):
They have a good deal of thoughts.
Let me jump in on that.
I think about this a lot and Icome from a background where I
like what you said.
Anytime you talk aboutreceiving love or being cared
for, that was just thought to beselfish.
It was all about working hardfor Jesus, which was incredibly
(48:50):
exhausting.
It's an interesting passage inEphesians 5.
It says no one ever hated theirown body, but they feed and
care for their body just asChrist does the church.
So I like how the simplicity ofthat is beautiful.
So what is self-hatred?
Here's my hunch.
(49:12):
Self-hatred is a form ofself-love.
So if I had a genuine enemy andthey did poorly, how would I
feel?
Yeah, I mean, in Jesus, I'lltone it down, but I would there
be just a little bit, just alittle bit of happiness in there
, just a touch.
You know it's like, oh, butI'll pray for you.
(49:33):
Like, but there is a little bit, there's just a little bit in
there, you know.
Yeah.
So when I truly hate somebody,I'm delighted when they do
poorly.
But when I do poorly I am soangry.
Why?
Because I don't live up.
(49:54):
I didn't in that moment live upto how profoundly I think about
who I am and how wonderful Iimagine myself to be.
What if self-hate is actually aform of pride?
Is actually a form of pridethat I haven't?
I haven't really died to myimagination of who I picture
(50:15):
myself to be Now.
Does that mean that becauseit's probably should be cruel
and no, we need to comealongside people kindly.
I don't think.
I think it should be kind, butit is moral and I have found, in
ministering to people, theirlove bucket and their
(50:37):
self-acceptance bucket nevergets full.
But something beautiful happenswhen they recognize their moral
poverty and let themselves beforgiven as opposed to admired.
Forgiveness is a more profoundfoundation of acceptance than
(51:03):
self-acceptances.
There's a joke I don't know ifit's very funny, but there's a
joke that says you know howpeople always learn to forgive
themselves.
Well, the joke is you can onlydo that once, because when Jesus
forgave us he died.
So to forgive yourself meansyou have to die for yourself.
I think that's a funny thing.
(51:24):
But self-forgiveness,self-acceptance, is not a
replacement for being forgivenby God.
When Debbie knows me betterthan anybody else in the planet
and when she forgives me, thatis more healing than me learning
(51:47):
to accept myself.
Forgiveness is a more profoundfoundation for security than
self-acceptances.
Can you speak about personalsuffering and how that plays
into more discussion today?
Well, asceticism is vanity.
To suffer for suffering sake isvanity.
(52:14):
I know you weren't, I'm gettingthere.
So there's nothing noble aboutsuffering for suffering sake.
I can suffer all the time inself-righteousness, so suffering
inherently isn't godly.
But there's something beautifulabout what is the Tim Keller?
He wrote a little tiny book andit's called the Art of
(52:38):
Self-Forgetfulness.
I just love the title the Artof Self-Forgetfulness.
I've watched my wife sufferover and over and over again
with the people who have livedin our home, and I watch her and
she's not thinking aboutsuffering, she's thinking about
(53:01):
loving, and it just so happenedthat suffering was included in
that.
But she's just not thinkingabout that.
And there's something beautifulwhen we lose ourself in love, in
the giving and the receiving oflove, something shifts in our
heart where there's a freedom toeven sacrifice.
But we didn't know that we were, because we were thinking about
(53:23):
you, not us.
And so I find that when Ipursue suffering, it's always
weird.
It's just always weird.
I'm a little bit self-righteous, a little bit the rescuer, a
little bit the hero of the story, but when I think about loving
others.
I'm just not thinking muchabout me because I'm just so
(53:43):
interested in you and what thespirit of God might want to do
in this moment to bless you.
So I think it's framing it inthe context of love that I mean.
I just think love redeemseverything.
But I think for me that'swhat's going on.
Debbie Mitchell (54:02):
I have an anxiety that I call current of
today and I think we talk a lotabout anxiety and I think that
even in the decisions that we'vemade and all the people that
we've chosen to love, whereGod's brought to us, I think
it's when we are anxious aboutthings that it gets kind of
scary, or I could be led to feelburnt out or I could feel sorry
(54:25):
for myself or feel victimizedby it or whatever it might be.
But I mean, greg talks a lotabout this but, like every major
player in the Bible, struggledwith anxiety.
You know, they all have to cometo terms with God and I feel
like like I used to.
I shared this yesterday but Iwrestled with anxiety when Greg
(54:46):
was teaching a lot about itbecause I thought, god, you said
you made me in your image andyou never struggled with anxiety
.
And you know I'm supposed to bemore like you and why do I have
so much anxiety?
And I always think I'm alwaysthe one that has all the issues
and that Greg has to learn aboutand then teach about.
But I was led to the passage inGethsemane when Jesus, you know,
(55:08):
needed to go before the Fatherand he left.
His disciples said stay, watchand pray.
And he gets on this.
Not that you know, jesus, oranything, but there was this
incredible moment where he getson his knees and he says, father
, you know, not my will, but nowill be done.
He talks about how he sweptpearls of blood or this
different versions, but Irealized in that moment how much
anxiety you had to have been,in that moment when the Lord of
(55:30):
heaven is trying to say, father,you know, take this cup for me.
He knows what he's about to gothrough, the worst death ever,
like I mean it's.
It's like if that wasn't ananxious moment, I don't know
what was, but there's this.
There's this moment where hejust says not my will but your
will be done.
Person (55:46):
And I think that's where the power is right, like when
it's no longer you know me, butChrist in me, you know, when
it's not about my suffering orit's just about going.
Debbie Mitchell (55:58):
God, what is it what's your will Like?
And trying to follow that, andmaybe even imperfectly, but you
know, loving these children.
It was like there were momentswhere when you say, you know
burnout, yeah, you know I willget rid of my pillow because
it's so stained with tears, butwhy I went there is because I
was anxious.
Person (56:16):
and why I went there is because he didn't remind me that
these kids needed to be loved.
And, yes, you have the power todo so.
So I think the transaction is,you know, not my will, but your
will.
Debbie Mitchell (56:27):
Thank you, and and I don't know the answers to
all the big questions in life,but I think that anxiety you
know in everything, you knowanxious about nothing but in
prayer and petition anxietyshould be the thing that draws
us back to God, no matter what'sin front of us, no matter what
he calls us to.
And people say, well, I couldnever do what you do, debbie,
(56:47):
and don't do what I do.
I recommend you don't, but dowhat God's called you to do, you
know, and that might be a bowlof soup for your neighbor, or it
might be bringing someone in,it doesn't matter.
It's like what is, what is thatmoment that God's calling you?
What is, what is he calling meto do?
And how's it pressing mefurther into relationship with
(57:09):
him?
And and so I I lean on not mywill, but your will, be done.
And that doesn't mean that it'salways easy in it.
You know, blessed life doesn'tmean a happy life Like we've
learned those things.
But I can't think of a betterlife, you know, than to to love
those that God has put in frontof us and to do it imperfectly
(57:30):
and hopefully be forgiven in theprocess, because I think we
learn more about the gospel inour humility than in anything
else.
So I don't know.
I just think the world issuffering with anxiety and to me
it feels like that's becauseGod is drawing the world to
himself and we can do.
We can self-medicate, or we canfall on our knees and we're
trying to help people, notself-medicate, hopefully, by
(57:51):
modeling being on our knees.
Greg Mitchell (57:53):
It's really good, debbie, it's great, thank you.
Debbie Mitchell (58:03):
We all know that feels good.
Greg Mitchell (58:09):
Maybe we're going to wrap up.
Can I see one last thing, or doyou want to?
So I think, when I read Genesisthree, that the root sin in the
Bible is not private mistrust.
I think it all started with,did God really say and as soon
as we doubt God, then it's yoube God, which is pride, but is
(58:33):
second to mistrust.
And so what we talk a lot aboutin our church is that love is
always the goal and trust is thefoundation of a love
relationship.
Without trust, you can't havelove, and I think that Canada is
trying to experience themaximum amount of love with a
minimum amount of trust.
(58:55):
I think Canadians are paranoidof trust, powerfully I would say
demonically suspicious, and so,as I think about a journey into
hospitality, into reciprocalrelationships of giving and
receiving love, not just betweenbut also with the Father, and
(59:16):
to see that dynamic happen, Ithink that the issue that I am
always working on is actuallynot love but faith.
Trust, I think, is my biggestissue, and when I'm being
pressed into receive love, I getanxious because I don't want to
be known or give love.
I get anxious because I don'twant to be burned out.
Those are all faith moments forme, and unless I wrestle
(59:40):
through my trust issues, I neverget to receive or give love.
And so I think I just, first ofall, I just think this
community is just so beautiful,and I think that what will
continue to lead this communityforward is, it's clear, the
commitment to love, and I thinkit will be realized more and
(01:00:02):
more as we all work through ourtrust issues and find freedom in
the gospel.
So that's what I'm thinkingabout.
God bless you guys.
Here we go.
I'm sorry I have to use thisI'd much rather not, but it's
great to see some I won't sayold faces that's not very nice,
but faces I've seen before andsome new faces.
Brent just here.
If you want to know thedifference between Brent's
personality and mine, this isBrent's wallet and this is my
(00:29):
wallet, and I just feel likethat says everything right there
.
This is how we're differentfrom one another, but the truth
is, this is what I need in mylife and yeah, that's right.
(00:51):
I wasn't going to go there, butBrent and I have been very good
friends for a long time and forlots of reasons, but one of them
is I just need him in my life.
I'm quite a linear kind ofperson, but what I value are
(01:14):
deeply relational things.
So I've needed Brent in my lifeto keep reminding me about
what's true and really to havesomebody to live it out with,
that approaches the same thingsfrom a different perspective,
and I'm so grateful for hisfriendship, for his leadership
in my life, and that we've beenable to journey through all of
(01:37):
our mistakes and messes and justcome out the other side not
just appreciating each other,but still being able to pull in
the same direction.
I just think is a huge gift tome.
So, brent, thank you so muchfor your friendship.
It means a lot to me.
I was expecting to just have aconversation with a few people,
(02:01):
so I'm hoping that that canstill be true.
I have a couple stories, acouple thoughts, but I'm really
more interested in us talkingabout these things together.
A number of years ago now, wehad a woman come from mainland
China.
I'm from Vancouver.
(02:21):
She came to Summit FraserUniversity, came to Christ there
and became a campus missionaryin our church.
Jessica, not Gao, not anymore.
She got married, so she's outon the SFU campus and she's now
going to be an evangelist forJesus.
And so she comes up to a whitedude which was her first problem
(02:44):
, anyways, but very differentand so she comes up to a white
dude, and she comes up to himand she says Jesus loves you.
And the dude says well, whywouldn't he?
I mean.
I'm a great guy.
What's there not to love?
And so he just went on a littlebit explaining how great he was
(03:05):
.
And then Jessica says well,actually you're a sinner.
I mean, she's just new, so it'sjust God's love you and you're
a sinner, like within a fewminutes.
But and so this guy says he says, look, what you Christians call
sin, I call solutions.
(03:25):
He says whenever I don't dowell at work, I lie.
He says it works well, all thetime I just lie.
And he says it's served me verywell.
When I'm not feeling very goodabout myself, I gossip and I
feel better.
And if I'm stressed out, that'swhen I smoke weed, and if I
(03:50):
have, you know, physical desires, that's why I go to the bar and
pick up somebody.
And he says what you Christianscall problems, I call solutions
.
And she comes back to our teammeeting and she says you know
what do I do with this guy?
I don't know, how do you, howdo you even begin to have a
(04:12):
journey toward faith andrelationship with Christ?
And so here's something thatdawned on us back then and I've
been thinking about it for avery long time since then is
that gospel solutions requiregospel problems, and unless we
(04:36):
have the right problem, jesusnever really makes sense.
And so we talk with peopleabout how much God loves them,
or they should repent andbelieve, or those kinds of
things, and, at least in my city, it often falls on deaf ears
because people really aren'tvery interested.
(04:57):
And what we realized is that wehad to actually back up the
process.
By the way, it's so great to bein Canada.
I can say process withoutpeople giggling.
When I'm in the States, it'salways process and I think
that's very funny.
They think it's cute.
When I say process, it annoysme every time.
But so what we needed to do wasto back up the process and say
(05:21):
maybe our first responsibilityis to give people better
problems before they'll receivebetter solutions.
And so then the questionbecomes what's the problem?
What's the problem that Jesuscame to remedy when it says, for
(05:42):
God's love, the world, he gaveus only something.
What did the Father give theSon for?
Like what's going on?
That would first of all requiresuch a drastic response on
God's part.
And so I find it interestingand maybe you can add to this
list what people think theirproblem is.
(06:03):
So, and this is just, I'lltouch hot buttons just more for
the point of conversation thananything else.
But what I notice lots of peoplecome to Christ for would maybe
be under the banner of successthat I have, I want to be.
(06:27):
They can even use Christianlanguage.
I want to be all that God hascalled me to be, and so I need
the work of the Spirit and Jesusto somehow enable me to become
successful, and God kind of, atthat point, becomes a resource
(06:48):
for their own personaldevelopment.
And so that one doesn't maketoo much sense to me, although I
think it's also true God does.
I was just listening to aspeaker say that he was
referencing King David, andsomebody comes up and says to
David God is going to give yousuccess, success, success, and
(07:11):
we're all David's children, andso that's what God wants to give
us as well.
So that's true, so there'struth to it, and so maybe the
primary problem I don't thinkit's the primary problem, but it
is a problem would be ourpersonal success.
Maybe another one in my cityit's a super big deal, and it
(07:37):
would be called mental health,and so I have a counseling
background that I'm incrediblygrateful for.
My mentor is a psychologist,and so I've been steeped in
these things for a long time andI really care deeply about this
(07:58):
.
But mental health and we canmaybe discuss this if you want
to go deeper but mental healthis just like one degree off of
gospel health, it's just alittle different.
But people will assume thatmental health is exactly the
same as what Jesus came to bring, and so they'll go on a journey
(08:22):
of self-awareness and workingthrough having an image of self
and of God and of others thathas been refined and perhaps
purified by scripture andministry.
But that can be a problem thatthey think is the primary
(08:44):
problem that Jesus came to solve.
And again, we can talk aboutthis because I'm not trying to
bash mental health anymore thansuccess, but I don't think it's
the core problem.
And then another one that I'vespent many years exploring and
(09:05):
have found great personalbenefit in would be maybe what
could be described as innerhealing, slightly similar to
mental health, but it was for mean inward journey of finding
peace within my soul throughdeliverance from demonic
(09:28):
oppression and forces andfinding healing through the
power of the Holy Spirit, andthose moments for me have been
transformational.
They changed my life.
But I found that as I ministerto people in that kind of vein
(09:49):
which, again, I'm trying toemphasize that they're helpful
but maybe not the core issue.
But, as I that people actuallyended up chasing after freedom
instead of Jesus, and it justwas slightly.
It just went slightly, justslightly off, and then I found
that people kept coming backagain and again for more and
(10:11):
more inner healing and Iwondered why it didn't stick.
And then it got me wonderingwhether maybe even that wasn't
actually the core problem thatthe gospel came to remedy Again,
important, but maybe not thecore problem.
And so I think the core problemwould be summarized in St
(10:37):
Corinthians 5, 18 to 20, thatlet me just read it and then
it's better that way, it'sfaster if I do it this way.
So, oh, this is from God, whoreconciled us to himself through
(11:04):
Christ and gave us the ministryof reconciliation.
That God was reconciling theworld to himself in Christ, not
counting people's sins againstthem, and he is committed to us
the message of reconciliation.
We are therefore Christ'sambassadors, as though God were
making his appeal through us.
So we implore you, on Christ'sbehalf, be reconciled to God.
(11:27):
I think that the core problemthat the Father sent the Son to
remedy through His work and thework of the Holy Spirit.
I think it's reconciliation, Ithink it's a relational problem
(11:49):
and I think that's the mainthing going on.
And when success and mentalhealth and inner healing serve
that deeper problem, they allget redeemed and they all become
super helpful things.
But they're only helpful whenthey're serving something more
profound and I think it'salienation.
So, if you've heard me talkbefore, we have a definition of
(12:12):
sin that's based on Isaiah 59,verses one and two, that sin is
anything that breaks rightrelationship.
Sin isn't an arbitrary list ofdos and don'ts.
It's a God opposes everythingthat opposes relationship, and
then what God came to remedy iseverything that would reconcile
First to God and then to oneanother.
(12:34):
And so I really believe thatthere's only one ministry in the
church, and sometimes inchurches that we have worship
ministry and children's ministry, and I think there's only one
ministry in the church.
It's the ministry ofreconciliation, and unless the
church is serving that ministry,I don't think it's doing
(12:55):
Christian work.
We can run programs and amusekids and have amazing worship,
but unless it leads towardsreconciliation, it can actually
be a distraction to the work ofthe kingdom.
So I think I think that's theproblem and in my city.
(13:15):
We're trying to help them careabout that problem, so that the
gospel would be good news.
But unless they have thatproblem, it just doesn't make
any sense, and so thehyper-individualism that we
experienced, I think, in Canadain general, in a my city at
least in particular, is veryprofound, and sadly, people have
(13:39):
come to befriend it where theirproblems are, because they have
relationship, and they'd preferto have fewer relationships in
order to reduce their problems.
That's one of the primarydifficulties, by the way, with
mental health is that I am neverangry, sad, confused when I'm
(14:00):
alone.
It's only when I have otherpeople around me that life gets
more difficult, and so I thinkthat the gospel is about
reconciliation, and our journeyis to help people have a gospel
(14:22):
problem so that they can receivea gospel solution.
So we're going to talk abouthow to do that in a minute.
But how are you doing with thatidea?
So far, you doing OK, ok.
So the question then becomes howdo we stimulate a need for a
relationship with God and oneanother?
And so I think that, from whatI can understand, the
(14:49):
overwhelming answer is actuallyhospitality.
That what hospitality does isit awakens inside of people's
hearts their need for arelationship, and so Debbie and
I have really devoted our livesto being hospitable people.
She's way better at it than Iam.
I'm an introvert and I thinkabout stuff, but I'm not super
(15:14):
friendly, and so I'm working onit, though I'm only 62, so I
have a few more years left tonail this thing, but my heart
deeply cares for that.
Hospitality is the most oftenmentioned good work in the New
Testament.
It's the most often mentioned.
(15:36):
What I find interesting in theOld Testament is that there were
three primary crimes that theprophets would highlight in
God's people.
It was idolatry, immorality andnot caring for the alien and
(15:57):
the poor.
Like it made the top three,like it's right up there with
idolatry and adultery, was notcaring for the alien, for those
in the outside, for thedisenfranchised.
That's very sobering to me.
That that's in the middle ofGod's heart is a spirit of
hospitality.
He's a welcoming God and hisprimary motivation is that I
(16:22):
would be your God and you wouldbe my people.
That's what's motivating himfrom Leviticus 26 right through
to Revelation 20.
And so we see this as being theprimary mechanism.
I think that awakens people'sneeds.
So we've had I don't knowdozens and dozens of people live
(16:45):
with us.
We have 10 children, and threebiological, and don't tell me it
gets complicated after that.
It's one or two adopted andthen, I think, three foster and
then two other who just livedwith us for years.
They call us mom and dad, andso what we've longed to do is
(17:09):
live an open life, because we'venoticed that people don't
recognize their need for Jesusunless they've tasted of his
love.
I remember there was one guywho's still a very good friend
of ours.
He struggled all of his lifewith same sense of attraction.
When we first met him he was ina relationship.
(17:30):
He broke up, they broke up, andso then he came and lived with
us for a while, and just a well,I just have to say this because
I think it's so funny.
But he was a comedian on cruiseships and so just the funniest
guy you could ever.
One of my favorite jokes of hisand I've said it so many times,
but I still think it's funny hesays Greg, he says I don't
(17:52):
repeat gossip, so I'm only goingto say this once.
I just think that is so funny,I just love that.
Anyways, he came to, he livedwith us, I don't know for how
many months.
Oh OK, so I didn't rememberthat.
(18:15):
And so here's, so it's wellinto him living with us.
And he's having a talk with himone day and he says Greg, I
don't want to live the gaylifestyle anymore.
And so I said to him I'm tryingto be funny.
It wasn't very funny, but Ithought it was funny at the
moment.
You'll always be gay, anyways,I thought I was being funny.
(18:39):
He goes no, no, no, I don'twant to do that, I don't want to
do that anymore.
And I asked why.
He says well, anytime.
So he's kind of very flamboyantand so he says anytime anybody
looks at me, they could see thatI'm gay.
And then they assume that I'm apedophile.
And he says nobody lets me neartheir children and I never get
(19:04):
to experience family.
He says but you and Debbie havelet me into your home and
you've let me play with yourkids and I've tasted of a better
love.
And if this is what the love ofGod is like, he says, this is
way better than the quote,unquote love that I was chasing
for many, many years of my life,and that's just very moving to
(19:32):
me because I love them very much.
So I'll just say one more thing, and then we can talk.
So hospitality, to me, is thedoorway into the kingdom of God.
(19:52):
It allows people to identifyright problems so that they can
have right solutions.
Are you OK with the idea?
Is this making sense?
Ok, there's one morecomplication that I'd like to
introduce and then we can talk.
So, as I said, we have 10 kidsNow and they've come to us in
(20:12):
different kinds of ways, buthere's what we've believed.
We believed that if we coulddemonstrate the love of God to
these children, most of whomhave come from horrendous
backgrounds I can't tell youabout it for lots of reasons for
confidentiality, but if I do, Ijust get so choked up because
(20:33):
it's so horrible what humanbeings have done to one another.
It's not right and it breaks myheart.
So we believed that the remedywould be and it is the remedy,
but I have to qualify it orexpand it at least that we
thought the remedy would beextravagant love.
(20:56):
And so we just love them likeour own kids.
If we're all going on vacation,we don't say if the foster kids
or the other kids don't go withthe no we're just a family, we
call ourselves a forever family,and we treated them as our own
kids.
And then we discovered that theysuper enjoyed that and many of
(21:23):
them had no intention ofchanging.
And so we thought, oh, theyjust haven't tasted the love of
God enough yet, and so we wouldtry to love them even better.
And then there's thisdefinition that I think is still
the best definition of personalhealth.
It's Matthew 10.8.
Freely, you have received,freely give.
(21:44):
And so I think that they nailedfreely receiving.
I don't think they quite gotalong around to freely give.
That was a bit of a gap intheir relational development,
and so they were happy, happy,happy to receive all kinds
anything.
Our love, money, roof over theirhead, our time, energy.
(22:07):
Thank you so much really, butnever really got around to
giving love freely.
Some of them Feels like the 10lepers, you know.
Let everybody comes back to saythank you.
So here's my question to us Tothoroughly embrace hospitality,
(22:34):
to give away our hearts, I think, in a more robust and profound
way, requires that ourhospitality leads people towards
repentance and faith, that it'spossible to live in such a way
that we can be thoroughly lovingand actually give them the
(22:56):
illusion that we can be trulyloving, that they're mature, but
they're really just living offof our godliness and they've
never really committedthemselves to lay down their
life for their neighbor.
And so what we're in the middleof trying to understand and we
don't really have answers.
So that's why this is a genuinediscussion is how do we exhibit
(23:19):
a spirit of hospitality which Ithink is the heart of God, in a
way that leads others towardsrepentance and faith, where they
would churn toward thatthemselves and do it in a way
that was founded in faith, notjust performance and you know
(23:42):
works, righteousness, but with agenuine trust in the gospel.
So what do you think about that?
How does hospitality produceheart transformation.
I don't know where I want to go.
(24:11):
So this is all good.
I keep thinking about burnoutand you guys burned out doing
that, but what are your thoughtstowards that?
Oh, do I have a thought?
You didn't know that you set meup?
(24:33):
Yeah, he was first hospitalBefore he ever invited us to do
(24:57):
anything.
So this is a theory that we cantalk about as well.
It's just a theory.
So Most people that I know arereally nervous about burnout,
and for legitimate reasons.
I burn out at least once a year.
Usually comes around May, june.
(25:17):
I get depressed for a month ortwo and I don't function very
well Something I look forward toevery year and it's a real
issue for me.
So burnout is not a theory forme.
It's something that I've livedthrough over and over and over
again because I'm a slow learner.
Here's my theory.
(25:43):
So you have Jesus.
This is the story of the womanat the well.
You have Jesus, who isexhausted, right, because he's
been walking for a very longtime.
We know that he's exhausted andtired because his disciples go
off to find some food.
They're tired.
It's been a long day or life.
And then he meets a woman, andnow there's another need in
(26:08):
front of him and he's exhausted.
They have, as you guys all know, an amazing encounter.
And then, and so he offers herliving water, which is
refreshment, right.
And then, so you know,incredible encounter, verse 27
(26:34):
of John 4,.
Just then his disciples returnedand were surprised to find him
talking with a woman, but no oneasked what you want or why
you're talking with her.
Then, leaving her jar of water,the woman went back to the town
and said to the people come seea man who told me everything I
ever did.
Could this be the Messiah?
Then they came out of town andmade their way towards him.
Meanwhile, his disciples urgedhim rabbi, eat something.
(26:57):
Okay, so they can see that he'stired and exhausted and hungry.
Psychologically, we can overlayburnout, perhaps.
And then he says this.
But he said to them I have foodto eat that you know nothing
about.
In a classic fashion, thedisciples then said to each
other because someone hadbrought him food, like totally
(27:20):
missing the point, you know.
So here's my theory Freelyloving others is not exhausting.
Anxiety is when I make it aboutme having to save a soul, or me
having to be a rock star, orwhen I take on responsibilities
(27:40):
that are only the responsibilityof God.
I can't change hearts right, Ican't bring conviction only the
Spirit of God does that.
And so as soon as I start doinghis job, that's a little
exhausting and it leads to myburnout.
But when I'm walking in hiswill, in response to him, then I
find loving others to belife-giving, and that I have
(28:04):
food to eat that you knownothing about.
And this, to me, ties in withthe issue that I discover in my
home, in church and city.
Is that here's the mentality?
I think, because I recognize itin myself is something like
this I need my love tank filledso that eventually I'll be able
(28:28):
to.
Then it'll overflow into lovingothers.
Are you familiar with the theory?
That's never true.
We give in faith.
I never feel full, I never go.
Wow, I am so bloated with thelove of God and I like I give
you a.
(28:49):
God bless you.
If that has happened to you,that's not happened to me.
I'm always hungry and thirstyfor more of him and feel
inadequate in most every moment.
But so my kids don't want to beselfish.
They don't wake up in themorning hoping to be selfish,
but what they do think is I'mnot ready to love yet I need to
(29:10):
receive more yet, and thenthere'll be this magical moment
when it'll spill over intoloving others.
And I wonder if their issue isfear and anxiety as well, that
they're afraid to get burned out, and it's why repentance must
always accompany faith.
It's only by trusting in thework of Christ, in the work of
(29:34):
Christ, are we able to then havethe freedom to love out of our
poverty, not of our amazingriches or whatever it is.
So I think receiving love andgiving love are not tiring.
I think that my flesh pollutesthat and pulls me away from
(29:56):
relationship or makes me over afunction in relationship, both
of which are exhausting thatsteal away the beauty and
life-giving nature of love.
Jose (30:10):
Yeah, it is very interesting that you say that
hospitality is very important.
I think the hospitality, likeyou said, God start hospitality
(30:31):
with the Adam near.
We build this earth to be inlove.
Unfortunately, we see we coverup everything.
For me, hospitality, probablybecause my culture is more
(30:52):
hospitality than Americans.
Greg Mitchell (30:59):
Just say Americans, don't say Canadians,
it's just the Americans.
I feel better about that.
I can only say to everybodyhospitality is a gift from God.
Jose (31:20):
Why I only say to everybody, do you know others?
And I say, do you know others?
And I say I make others but Idon't know others.
It's very difficult because noothers.
(31:42):
I have to be hospital, open myhouse to bring others to my
house, to a place Actually Idon't say to my place, the house
of God, because everything thatis here is not us, it's not God
(32:04):
.
And if I hospital the others,I'm going to start a
relationship with you.
Greg Mitchell (32:14):
That's right.
Jose (32:15):
If I don't have a relationship with any of you, I
make you, but where is the love?
Me to all of you, and that'sthe reason that God is.
The first thing that God wantsis to love the people.
(32:39):
If you don't love the peoplelike James I think it's James
said if you say that you loveGod and you hate your neighbor,
where is the love?
So love is kind of love,unfortunately, the human love
(33:02):
and the love coming from God.
And you was the answer to him.
If I am going to be tired toopen my house, no, why?
Because you love God is in thathouse and I give love to him.
I'm going to learn things fromany of you because I am not
(33:29):
perfect.
I remember one thing that JamesJordan was saying that he was
very burned out until herealized that he was carrying on
all the burdens of the otherpeople.
I am not Jesus, I am not God,god, god.
(33:53):
I think it's a good thing thatI only can do is to pray, and
whatever is trouble in thatknowledge, in that religion, in
that love, I give up to him.
Greg Mitchell (34:13):
Isn't it interesting that when it says in
Matthew 22 that the sum of thelaw and the prophets is to love
God and to love your neighbor, Idon't know that I would have
written that if I was God, Iwould have said the sum of the
law is to receive God's love.
But there's something, and Ithink it goes along with what
you're saying.
There's something about lovingothers that opens us up to the
(34:34):
love of God in a very profoundway and that maybe it's not
nearly as sequential as we thinkit is.
It's actually cyclical orreciprocal.
That as we decide to open upour hearts to love, we find
ourselves experiencing beingloved first by the Father and
then by the people around us invery remarkable ways that it
(34:56):
can't be neatly put I receiveand then I give.
Maybe I mean, according toMatthew 22, it's actually I give
and then I receive, becausethere's something that happens
in your heart when you decide tolove that opens yourself up to
be able to receive love.
And I'm not trying to put itinto a sequence, but it's just
interesting that the two buildoff of one another instead of
(35:19):
our mutually exclusive.
Thanks for your thoughts.
Anybody else, what are youthinking?
Yeah, I sense that maybe a partof being able to love people is
seeing them with God's heart andwith his eyes.
(35:42):
And you know, the scripture saysand I don't think it's all for
the sweet buying by when we seehim, we shall like him.
So perhaps giving love away,even like by faith, what you
were saying a few moments ago isa little glimpse of me seeing
(36:09):
something that humanized wouldnever see, because behind it is
God's love.
And then there's a sense inwhich I see him, so I become
more like him, and part of theprocess of becoming more like
him is receiving his love sogood.
So you know, I'm giving himfaith and I give away and I want
(36:40):
someone to experience the heartof the Father, with his love
and his goodness and hisacceptance and his truth.
Then in that moment somethinghappens that I don't have words
for and part of me somewhere,maybe even here as well, in my
head.
But I see him and perhapsthat's one of the line upon line
(37:05):
changes of I become more likehim because I'm expressing his
heart.
Oh, you're saying that so well,you know, it's the.
It's when the servants say whendid we see you?
And he says what you've done tothe least of these, you've done
(37:27):
to me also, and we didn't seeyou poor, blind or naked, ah,
but what you did to these I got.
You caught the heart of God inthat and it transforms us
because we see him actually inthe act of loving those who are
marginalized on the outside.
And isn't that beautiful.
Even when we're loving others,we still are always receiving,
(37:49):
because it's just what God islike, so beautiful.
Thank you for saying that.
Any other thoughts?
Yeah, nice to see you, butthere's a glow about you, so I
see you as being darker thanthat.
Yeah, yeah, I assume that.
I assume that, Steve, I'm sureyour wife would agree.
(38:10):
That's right.
Steve (38:15):
The thoughts I'm trying to put together, Greg, are my
experience with God has been, inthe last 12 days, 60 years, so
it's constantly called the rest,but I've done more than I've
ever done before.
So there's that normal Godthing where opposites are going
together Sure.
Greg Mitchell (38:34):
Then there's an invitation to receive love and
there's an invitation to givelove.
Steve (38:40):
but the giving of love is done, as you said, in a place
of rest, so striving is actuallyan act of love.
Greg Mitchell (38:48):
That's right.
That's right.
I'm trying to create a healthquality, so what?
Steve (38:53):
I'm trying to put together and because you're
really really good at all.
This stuff is how you lovesomeone, but the second you put
an expectation on them, it'salmost not love anymore.
Maybe I've heard you talk aboutthis before, but it's like we
have a person we're thinking ofhiring.
He's super broken.
So this is a question.
(39:15):
He's super broken.
We can just hire him, love himthrough it, or we can just love
him through him and I'm going tobe broken.
We really want to hire thisperson who's broken, but the
invitation in my mind can't beokay.
If you say this is a prayer.
Now you're in the car, you knowwhat I mean.
Like I actually told him that Idon't even know what this is.
(39:36):
I don't even know what thatmagic sentence does, but I said
I want you to experience lifewhen you're around us and we'll
love you as best as we can, butit can't be great, or one of
these things you're seeking, orone of these things you're
looking for, because then I'mback.
So those are all.
Greg Mitchell (39:52):
That's great, it's even really great.
So here's what's interesting tome and again, you push back on
this because we're just tryingto figure it out together.
I don't think expectations areantithetical to love.
I have lots of expectations ofmyself, of my children, of my
(40:13):
church.
Lots of expectations.
It goes weird when I controlpeople toward those expectations
.
That's a problem.
But the expectations I want mykids to be well, just simply
happy.
That's an expectation.
I want them to be good.
But if I feel like I have tocontrol you toward that
(40:37):
expectation, well then the wholething's messed up.
Keep going.
Steve (40:43):
I desire my kids to be happy.
Greg Mitchell (40:45):
I'm not expecting , if you're not happy, but if
you can glineate the Sure, oh,do you think that they're
different?
Steve (40:55):
Yeah, I think they're what you're saying.
Expectations are good Because Iwant my kids to be happy, but
my expectation isn't the happyof those.
Greg Mitchell (41:04):
I just want to get the land back.
God has expectations.
It says, 1 Peter, that hedesires that all come to know
him.
He expects us to be holy andrighteous, yet he's never
manipulative or coercive in hisexpectations.
So I'm okay with the wordexpectation.
(41:27):
I'm okay with it.
It's just what I do with myexpectations.
And when I start caring moreabout my expectations than I do
about you, it's not loving.
And it's super hard to figurethat out, isn't it?
It's really hard.
It's really hard.
I'm going to ask somebody elseif they have other ideas and
(41:49):
then I'll go back to you.
Person (41:50):
Yeah, it reminds me of the family that I grew up in.
I grew up in a house with fourgenerations and I was the baby
right and my family was notwell-loved.
All those women came frombroken relationships, and so
C-Sola, the marriage, who's over45 years.
He was a fresh person in mylife that ever said I love you.
Greg Mitchell (42:10):
Wow.
Person (42:11):
I didn't miss that because I didn't know about it,
but when I was telling my 30s asa music practice and I felt God
say focus on getting out, thereis no natural vacuum in nature
where it sucks in, he says thinkof your vacuum cleaner.
It doesn't have a sucking motor, it has a blowing out motor and
because you create that flow,it will come in.
(42:32):
And he didn't say give out sothat you'll get.
He just said focus on gettingout and implied was I'll look
after you, honey.
But you know he's trying tosupport me because I'm him from
this.
Oh, please love me, Please careabout me, Please notice me too.
I'm learning about you learningabout you, I'm a granny and my
granny, jean, just kicks in andI just want to love people and
(42:52):
hug them and wow, he's reallydone that.
But that's what he said to meGive out, just focus on that,
not even with an eye to get Justfocus on getting out.
Greg Mitchell (43:05):
It's profound and you just and he never separates
them in his mind.
He never thinks oh, I rememberone time I don't know if you
guys know this but if you'refrom Vancouver, you're not
allowed to like Toronto.
I don't know if you know that.
Do you know that?
It's just a rule?
It's just a Canadian rule.
So I remember we were wantingto start a church.
(43:27):
Brandon and I went out therequite a bit.
We were going to start a churchin Toronto and I remember
praying one day.
I said God, if you want me tomove to Toronto, I'm from.
You know this is like theultimate sacrifice for Jesus,
but if you want me to move toToronto, I'll go.
And this is what I said.
(43:50):
I said I just want you to useme.
And then God responds and hesays I never used anybody.
And I go.
I know, I know it's just a let'snot do the word game thing and
I just you know, I'm just tryingto.
He goes no, he says I never useanybody.
And that just struck me thateven when he's inviting us to
(44:12):
love he's never using.
And there's something beautifulabout what you're describing
that is so clarifying of whatthe heart of God is like.
I just think it's beautiful,brent, I don't know what our
time is like, but Okay, just athought.
Brant Reding (44:34):
I'm going to hear you.
So love others as you loveyourself.
That's your line, and it alwaystakes me back to stories like
Mother Teresa, who suffered herwhole life.
She loved so many people thatnobody even had the compassion
(44:54):
or courage to go, and I rememberas you talked about how she
would see Jesus.
For her there was somethingabout the life of God is in
everyone and I'm not lovingbecause I have to or I need to,
or it's actually him.
And when he starts being in,when he comes across his group
(45:16):
of love others, you loveyourself, and for a while that
felt like well, I got to lovemyself, that whole self care
deal.
Let's get our whole worldtogether and get it all set up.
Now I'm okay and I got 50% nowand I can remember, as you were
(45:38):
talking about, it's just thesilliest thing in the world
Because you talk a lot aboutspiritual worker and things like
that.
He says it's just most of it.
It's just people don't love,Because actually people love.
You'd be probably happy ordrippin' your part of life in
half because you know thosecaret of concerns.
(45:59):
But what if you just actuallywent across the street?
What if you actually went tothat politician?
What if you actually did that?
Greg Mitchell (46:06):
Fascinating and so and I remember him saying it
for hundreds of people.
Brant Reding (46:13):
So I hope you don't think loving yourself
means being selfish.
How do you love yourself?
Well, let me get up, you'll getsome food.
You're not being selfish,you're just living.
It's just thinking of the basicthings, of what living is.
And what would that look like?
Why don't we turn it into thismassive thing?
(46:34):
A hospitality sounds so nice,but you're hospitable to
yourself Unless you're in thatplace where it's so far and it's
, like you know, caught in aroad and I just think, wow, that
really takes away all of thissuper spiritual house being.
But it's incredible how whatyou're saying, greg, is how few
(46:56):
people like my wife and I talkto each other a lot.
This is a lot about how manypeople think they need to keep
soaking in him, and to whatplace, and have they even tried?
But they're so used to.
I think the tri-part is that'swhere I guess you're.
You know, strive to enter hisrest.
The word strive, in its visuallanguage, means act of serenity.
(47:17):
Wow, that being poor, thatmeaning being loved.
And so to go across and love myneighbor, with no agenda to it.
No, I got something for you.
No, you know, it's justliterally, and then it goes in a
thousand different directions.
But that loving yourself part,tell me how that?
(47:37):
Because the guy on the campusgoing, yeah, he loves me.
Because he wouldn't, I thoughthe'd be myself Best.
Person (47:47):
People really love the self, love from the point of
view of somebody who breaks boththeir hair, and to me that says
as unique brothers and sistersat Christ who then in?
The same with self-hatred,self-harm, as you mentioned.
That's got lots.
(48:07):
Best for them.
They do release from that tosee themselves and love my God.
So they're really there for arelease, for healing, for a
down-going, because we're nottoo happy.
So it's a talent for themselves.
Greg Mitchell (48:23):
They have a good deal of thoughts.
Let me jump in on that.
I think about this a lot and Icome from a background where I
like what you said.
Anytime you talk aboutreceiving love or being cared
for, that was just thought to beselfish.
It was all about working hardfor Jesus, which was incredibly
(48:50):
exhausting.
It's an interesting passage inEphesians 5.
It says no one ever hated theirown body, but they feed and
care for their body just asChrist does the church.
So I like how the simplicity ofthat is beautiful.
So what is self-hatred?
Here's my hunch.
(49:12):
Self-hatred is a form ofself-love.
So if I had a genuine enemy andthey did poorly, how would I
feel?
Yeah, I mean, in Jesus, I'lltone it down, but I would there
be just a little bit, just alittle bit of happiness in there
, just a touch.
You know it's like, oh, butI'll pray for you.
(49:33):
Like, but there is a little bit, there's just a little bit in
there, you know.
Yeah.
So when I truly hate somebody,I'm delighted when they do
poorly.
But when I do poorly I am soangry.
Why?
Because I don't live up.
(49:54):
I didn't in that moment live upto how profoundly I think about
who I am and how wonderful Iimagine myself to be.
What if self-hate is actually aform of pride?
Is actually a form of pridethat I haven't?
I haven't really died to myimagination of who I picture
(50:15):
myself to be Now.
Does that mean that becauseit's probably should be cruel
and no, we need to comealongside people kindly.
I don't think.
I think it should be kind, butit is moral and I have found, in
ministering to people, theirlove bucket and their
(50:37):
self-acceptance bucket nevergets full.
But something beautiful happenswhen they recognize their moral
poverty and let themselves beforgiven as opposed to admired.
Forgiveness is a more profoundfoundation of acceptance than
(51:03):
self-acceptances.
There's a joke I don't know ifit's very funny, but there's a
joke that says you know howpeople always learn to forgive
themselves.
Well, the joke is you can onlydo that once, because when Jesus
forgave us he died.
So to forgive yourself meansyou have to die for yourself.
I think that's a funny thing.
(51:24):
But self-forgiveness,self-acceptance, is not a
replacement for being forgivenby God.
When Debbie knows me betterthan anybody else in the planet
and when she forgives me, thatis more healing than me learning
(51:47):
to accept myself.
Forgiveness is a more profoundfoundation for security than
self-acceptances.
Can you speak about personalsuffering and how that plays
into more discussion today?
Well, asceticism is vanity.
To suffer for suffering sake isvanity.
(52:14):
I know you weren't, I'm gettingthere.
So there's nothing noble aboutsuffering for suffering sake.
I can suffer all the time inself-righteousness, so suffering
inherently isn't godly.
But there's something beautifulabout what is the Tim Keller?
He wrote a little tiny book andit's called the Art of
(52:38):
Self-Forgetfulness.
I just love the title the Artof Self-Forgetfulness.
I've watched my wife sufferover and over and over again
with the people who have livedin our home, and I watch her and
she's not thinking aboutsuffering, she's thinking about
(53:01):
loving, and it just so happenedthat suffering was included in
that.
But she's just not thinkingabout that.
And there's something beautifulwhen we lose ourself in love, in
the giving and the receiving oflove, something shifts in our
heart where there's a freedom toeven sacrifice.
But we didn't know that we were, because we were thinking about
(53:23):
you, not us.
And so I find that when Ipursue suffering, it's always
weird.
It's just always weird.
I'm a little bit self-righteous, a little bit the rescuer, a
little bit the hero of the story, but when I think about loving
others.
I'm just not thinking muchabout me because I'm just so
(53:43):
interested in you and what thespirit of God might want to do
in this moment to bless you.
So I think it's framing it inthe context of love that I mean.
I just think love redeemseverything.
But I think for me that'swhat's going on.
Debbie Mitchell (54:02):
I have an anxiety that I call current of
today and I think we talk a lotabout anxiety and I think that
even in the decisions that we'vemade and all the people that
we've chosen to love, whereGod's brought to us, I think
it's when we are anxious aboutthings that it gets kind of
scary, or I could be led to feelburnt out or I could feel sorry
(54:25):
for myself or feel victimizedby it or whatever it might be.
But I mean, greg talks a lotabout this but, like every major
player in the Bible, struggledwith anxiety.
You know, they all have to cometo terms with God and I feel
like like I used to.
I shared this yesterday but Iwrestled with anxiety when Greg
(54:46):
was teaching a lot about itbecause I thought, god, you said
you made me in your image andyou never struggled with anxiety
.
And you know I'm supposed to bemore like you and why do I have
so much anxiety?
And I always think I'm alwaysthe one that has all the issues
and that Greg has to learn aboutand then teach about.
But I was led to the passage inGethsemane when Jesus, you know,
(55:08):
needed to go before the Fatherand he left.
His disciples said stay, watchand pray.
And he gets on this.
Not that you know, jesus, oranything, but there was this
incredible moment where he getson his knees and he says, father
, you know, not my will, but nowill be done.
He talks about how he sweptpearls of blood or this
different versions, but Irealized in that moment how much
anxiety you had to have been,in that moment when the Lord of
(55:30):
heaven is trying to say, father,you know, take this cup for me.
He knows what he's about to gothrough, the worst death ever,
like I mean it's.
It's like if that wasn't ananxious moment, I don't know
what was, but there's this.
There's this moment where hejust says not my will but your
will be done.
Person (55:46):
And I think that's where the power is right, like when
it's no longer you know me, butChrist in me, you know, when
it's not about my suffering orit's just about going.
Debbie Mitchell (55:58):
God, what is it what's your will Like?
And trying to follow that, andmaybe even imperfectly, but you
know, loving these children.
It was like there were momentswhere when you say, you know
burnout, yeah, you know I willget rid of my pillow because
it's so stained with tears, butwhy I went there is because I
was anxious.
Person (56:16):
and why I went there is because he didn't remind me that
these kids needed to be loved.
And, yes, you have the power todo so.
So I think the transaction is,you know, not my will, but your
will.
Debbie Mitchell (56:27):
Thank you, and and I don't know the answers to
all the big questions in life,but I think that anxiety you
know in everything, you knowanxious about nothing but in
prayer and petition anxietyshould be the thing that draws
us back to God, no matter what'sin front of us, no matter what
he calls us to.
And people say, well, I couldnever do what you do, debbie,
(56:47):
and don't do what I do.
I recommend you don't, but dowhat God's called you to do, you
know, and that might be a bowlof soup for your neighbor, or it
might be bringing someone in,it doesn't matter.
It's like what is, what is thatmoment that God's calling you?
What is, what is he calling meto do?
And how's it pressing mefurther into relationship with
(57:09):
him?
And and so I I lean on not mywill, but your will, be done.
And that doesn't mean that it'salways easy in it.
You know, blessed life doesn'tmean a happy life Like we've
learned those things.
But I can't think of a betterlife, you know, than to to love
those that God has put in frontof us and to do it imperfectly
(57:30):
and hopefully be forgiven in theprocess, because I think we
learn more about the gospel inour humility than in anything
else.
So I don't know.
I just think the world issuffering with anxiety and to me
it feels like that's becauseGod is drawing the world to
himself and we can do.
We can self-medicate, or we canfall on our knees and we're
trying to help people, notself-medicate, hopefully, by
(57:51):
modeling being on our knees.
Greg Mitchell (57:53):
It's really good, debbie, it's great, thank you.
Debbie Mitchell (58:03):
We all know that feels good.
Greg Mitchell (58:09):
Maybe we're going to wrap up.
Can I see one last thing, or doyou want to?
So I think, when I read Genesisthree, that the root sin in the
Bible is not private mistrust.
I think it all started with,did God really say and as soon
as we doubt God, then it's yoube God, which is pride, but is
(58:33):
second to mistrust.
And so what we talk a lot aboutin our church is that love is
always the goal and trust is thefoundation of a love
relationship.
Without trust, you can't havelove, and I think that Canada is
trying to experience themaximum amount of love with a
minimum amount of trust.
(58:55):
I think Canadians are paranoidof trust, powerfully I would say
demonically suspicious, and so,as I think about a journey into
hospitality, into reciprocalrelationships of giving and
receiving love, not just betweenbut also with the Father, and
(59:16):
to see that dynamic happen, Ithink that the issue that I am
always working on is actuallynot love but faith.
Trust, I think, is my biggestissue, and when I'm being
pressed into receive love, I getanxious because I don't want to
be known or give love.
I get anxious because I don'twant to be burned out.
Those are all faith moments forme, and unless I wrestle
(59:40):
through my trust issues, I neverget to receive or give love.
And so I think I just, first ofall, I just think this
community is just so beautiful,and I think that what will
continue to lead this communityforward is, it's clear, the
commitment to love, and I thinkit will be realized more and
(01:00:02):
more as we all work through ourtrust issues and find freedom in
the gospel.
So that's what I'm thinkingabout.
God bless you guys.
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