Ep. 212: Becoming Baba Yaga With Kris Spisak

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Track 2: Lovely to meet you again. (00:00):
undefined

Track 1: Lovely to meet you again as well. So please tell us a bit about who you are (00:01):
undefined

Track 1: and your latest book, Becoming Baba Yaga. (00:06):
undefined

Track 2: Becoming Baba Yaga is my fifth book, but let me back up a little bit because (00:09):
undefined

Track 2: it all folds into the greater story. (00:14):
undefined

Track 2: Okay. Hi, everyone. I'm Chris Fizak. I am an author and someone passionate about (00:17):
undefined

Track 2: the transformational power of language and storytelling. telling. (00:22):
undefined

Track 2: Everything I have ever written or likely ever will, will fall under that umbrella. (00:26):
undefined

Track 2: And my first three books, which started with Get a Grip on Your Grammar and (00:31):
undefined

Track 2: then followed by the Novel Editing Workbook and the Family Story Writing Workbook, (00:35):
undefined

Track 2: those were all stories and books that were designed to help empower your language, (00:40):
undefined

Track 2: whatever you may be writing, whether you are working on the next great American novel, (00:45):
undefined

Track 2: your family history that you wish someone had had written down or your business (00:49):
undefined

Track 2: communications or any other usage of your words that you might be doing. (00:54):
undefined

Track 2: My fourth book was my first debut into the fiction world where I took a story (00:58):
undefined

Track 2: of a Ukrainian grandmother who survived World War II and all she wanted to do (01:04):
undefined

Track 2: before she died was get back onto Ukrainian soil. And that is a novel. (01:09):
undefined

Track 2: It goes from there, including a step with her stepping off an airplane in Eastern (01:14):
undefined

Track 2: Europe present day and disappearing. (01:18):
undefined

Track 2: And in that novel, There are Baba Yaga stories throughout. (01:20):
undefined

Track 2: For those of you who are not familiar with the Slavic goddess or Slavic folktale (01:24):
undefined

Track 2: character, Baba Yaga, she is a masterful mystery. (01:31):
undefined

Track 2: And I know we're going to dive into her. But I just wanted to give you a little (01:37):
undefined

Track 2: bit of introduction on my first four books here, because it was my fourth book, (01:40):
undefined

Track 2: which is fiction that really plays a lot with Baba Yaga as a character in folktales (01:45):
undefined

Track 2: and bedtime stories and whispered codes of bravery between family members of a certain heritage. (01:51):
undefined

Track 2: Percentage, that was what inspired me to write my latest, which is called Becoming (01:56):
undefined

Track 2: Baba Yaga, Trickster, Feminist, and Witch of the Woods. (02:01):
undefined

Track 2: It's my new nonfiction coming out September 2024 in audio and paperback, (02:05):
undefined

Track 2: and I know we're going to dive into that conversation. (02:10):
undefined

Track 1: Well, let's start with who Baba Yaga is and what she represents to you. (02:12):
undefined

Track 2: It's such a complicated and beautiful question because Baba Yaga is somebody (02:17):
undefined

Track 2: who in modern American pop culture keeps popping up. (02:23):
undefined

Track 2: She pops up in John Wick. (02:26):
undefined

Track 2: She pops up in Fitness Dreamworks Puss in Boots. So she's all over the place. (02:29):
undefined

Track 2: And sometimes she gets this description. I think it's in John Wick where Keanu (02:34):
undefined

Track 2: Reeves' character has a code name of Baba Yaga. (02:38):
undefined

Track 2: And the subtitles come in and it says, Baba Yaga, Boogeyman. man. (02:41):
undefined

Track 2: And I think anybody who knows anything about Baba Yaga shudders just a little (02:45):
undefined

Track 2: bit because Baba Yaga is so much more than this evil villain. (02:49):
undefined

Track 2: She is so much more than a Disney witch that you might think of as a character like that. (02:54):
undefined

Track 2: She is a character or a goddess of transformation in her roots that she has 2,000 years old, (03:01):
undefined

Track 2: years plus of history that you can find in archaeological digs, (03:10):
undefined

Track 2: in oral traditions of this character who might eat you for supper if she does not find you worthy, (03:15):
undefined

Track 2: but she also might make your wildest dreams come true if you pass her tests. (03:24):
undefined

Track 2: And this is what I love about her so much is because as a character, (03:31):
undefined

Track 2: what would you do if you had someone who you could meet who anything are always the same? (03:35):
undefined

Track 2: It's a matter of, are you respectful? Are you good hearted? Are you brave? (03:44):
undefined

Track 2: And are you a hard worker? And if you pass her tests, she can be transformative (03:50):
undefined

Track 2: in the history of oral storytelling. (03:55):
undefined

Track 2: And if not, you know, she's going to eat you. (03:58):
undefined

Track 2: I stumbled upon her years ago. And I think the more time I spend with her, (04:02):
undefined

Track 2: she just continues to fascinate me. (04:06):
undefined

Track 1: So the Baba Yaga that I know is kind of the Grimm's fairy tales version of the (04:09):
undefined

Track 1: woman who will eat children and lives in a hut with dancing, dancing chicken feet. (04:13):
undefined

Track 1: But I did not know that there was a 2000 year old historical record. (04:18):
undefined

Track 1: So let's go back to the beat. So does that suggest that this is, (04:22):
undefined

Track 1: Well, my first question is, which group of people originates this figure? (04:26):
undefined

Track 1: And what was this concept at the very beginning? (04:30):
undefined

Track 1: Was this meant to be a historical figure? Was it just a folklore of a group (04:33):
undefined

Track 1: of people at the beginning? What was the genesis of this? (04:37):
undefined

Track 2: The origin as far back as I can go. It's an old Slavic goddess. (04:40):
undefined

Track 2: And depending on the tradition, you can take it as far back as 7,000 years, (04:47):
undefined

Track 2: but it starts getting a little bit fuzzy at that point in history. (04:51):
undefined

Track 2: There was a culture that was making pottery that was more advanced than what (04:55):
undefined

Track 2: the ancient Egyptians were doing. (05:01):
undefined

Track 2: They had city centers that actually had cities of up to 9,000 people. (05:03):
undefined

Track 2: The culture was called Cuchitenic Trapia culture. (05:07):
undefined

Track 2: It's a culture that had a burn, kind of slash and burn culture. (05:13):
undefined

Track 2: When they left one location, they burned everything to the ground. (05:19):
undefined

Track 2: Hence, no monuments, no structures, no statues, nothing lingered. (05:24):
undefined

Track 2: So they completely disappeared in the historical record for many, many years. (05:28):
undefined

Track 2: And a lot of ancient world's historians are starting to rediscover them now, (05:33):
undefined

Track 2: and they're fascinating. (05:39):
undefined

Track 2: And they were in Slavic lands, we're talking Ukraine, we're talking Poland, (05:40):
undefined

Track 2: Slovakia, that area of the world around the Black Sea. (05:45):
undefined

Track 1: Okay. (05:49):
undefined

Track 2: And in that area, you had all these ancient cultures. And as we're digging down, (05:49):
undefined

Track 2: discovering more about this one group of people, we're discovering all these (05:54):
undefined

Track 2: figurines and statues of women. (06:00):
undefined

Track 2: And these were not just statues that seem to be artistic artifacts. (06:03):
undefined

Track 2: They seem to be objects of worship. (06:08):
undefined

Track 2: It's consistently women, and it's consistently looking at paintings that are (06:10):
undefined

Track 2: this swirl figure on their wombs. (06:16):
undefined

Track 2: The more we're diving into it, there is a divine feminine. (06:18):
undefined

Track 1: Is this the same as when they were finding stone figurines all over the world with large hips? (06:21):
undefined

Track 2: Yes, the stone babas. (06:27):
undefined

Track 1: This was all over the world, right? (06:28):
undefined

Track 2: Yes. This was a related thing. This was more specifically in Slavic lands. (06:30):
undefined

Track 1: Okay, but it was similar. (06:36):
undefined

Track 2: Stone babas are of the same tradition. (06:37):
undefined

Track 1: Okay. Okay, so it was like the Slavic variation of that? (06:39):
undefined

Track 2: Yes. (06:43):
undefined

Track 1: Okay, fascinating, fascinating. (06:43):
undefined

Track 2: Exactly. (06:45):
undefined

Track 1: Okay. (06:45):
undefined

Track 2: So zoom forward a couple thousand years, and we have a goddess that we actually (06:46):
undefined

Track 2: have a little bit more of a history about. (06:52):
undefined

Track 2: Her name was Madazira Zimlaja, and she was a goddess of the earth, (06:53):
undefined

Track 2: kind of the proto-Slavic earth deity. (06:59):
undefined

Track 2: And she is someone who you would go to to whisper your darkest secrets to by (07:02):
undefined

Track 2: digging a hole in the earth and whispering your secrets into the earth. (07:07):
undefined

Track 2: It was considered profanity to spit on the earth because that was like spitting on your mother, (07:10):
undefined

Track 2: So you have this woman who listens to your secrets no matter whether you are (07:14):
undefined

Track 2: good no matter whether you're making terrible choices She is a listener and (07:19):
undefined

Track 2: she is someone who will help judge and help decide your fate, (07:24):
undefined

Track 2: So that is just fascinating to me that you have this. (07:28):
undefined

Track 2: Figure who is helping figuring out what is right, what is wrong, (07:32):
undefined

Track 2: how do I judge, how do I empower? And so we have records of her. (07:35):
undefined

Track 2: And in this future folklore version of Baba Yaga that arises out of many different (07:39):
undefined

Track 2: influences, every little Slavic goddess along the way that we have in the historical (07:46):
undefined

Track 2: record, there are pieces of all of those goddesses and who she is. (07:50):
undefined

Track 2: So for example madhasira zimlaya she (07:53):
undefined

Track 2: was often represented as like being (07:57):
undefined

Track 2: the earth or a hole in the earth and this (08:00):
undefined

Track 2: idea of whispering in holes and the baba yaga (08:03):
undefined

Track 2: story you have baba yaga who is constantly diving into the holes of the earth (08:06):
undefined

Track 2: to escape or sometimes she's even seen as this blind figure when you look her (08:12):
undefined

Track 2: in the face it's like looking these two holes she doesn't have eyes She just (08:17):
undefined

Track 2: has these two deep holes that go into her skull, (08:21):
undefined

Track 2: and you just have all of these segments of other goddesses in her. You can fast forward. (08:25):
undefined

Track 2: There was another goddess called Mokesh, who there was a prince in Kiev who (08:29):
undefined

Track 2: put a statue up to her in 980. (08:36):
undefined

Track 2: It was Prince Vladimir, who was grandson of Prince Olga of Kiev, (08:39):
undefined

Track 2: if you've ever heard of her. (08:43):
undefined

Track 2: I have not. She's a fascinating and dark historical figure full of fabulous stories. (08:44):
undefined

Track 1: What is fascinating and dark? Why? Who's this person? (08:48):
undefined

Track 2: So Princess Olga of Kiev, there are a lot of great stories about her. (08:52):
undefined

Track 2: So as the story goes, Princess Olga of Kiev, her husband was killed by a neighboring community. (08:58):
undefined

Track 2: And instead of being like waging war or something after her husband, (09:05):
undefined

Track 2: who was the leader, waged war after he died, instead of waging war or something, (09:10):
undefined

Track 2: she said, you know what? All I want, (09:14):
undefined

Track 2: as kind of a memory of my husband, is I want to have one pigeon from the sill (09:16):
undefined

Track 2: of every single house in your village. (09:23):
undefined

Track 2: And that's all I will take. And I will allow you to do this in memory of my husband. (09:25):
undefined

Track 2: Now, this is a story. Is it true in the historical record? Likely not, but it's a great story. (09:29):
undefined

Track 2: So the villagers all collect the pigeons from all of the different buildings of their village. (09:34):
undefined

Track 2: They bring them across to Princess Olga, where she lives. (09:40):
undefined

Track 2: And as the story goes, Princess Olga then ties sulfur to the legs of every single pigeon, (09:43):
undefined

Track 2: releases every single pigeon, and then the pigeons all flock home to the buildings (09:51):
undefined

Track 2: where they live upon all of these thatched roofs. (09:56):
undefined

Track 2: And what happens with all of these, this sulfur flapping against all of these thatched roofs. (09:59):
undefined

Track 2: And as the story goes, the entire village who killed her husband then is engulfed (10:05):
undefined

Track 2: in flames and has disappeared. I mean, what story, right? (10:09):
undefined

Track 1: That's pretty out there. So I haven't, I've never heard Baba Yaga referred to (10:12):
undefined

Track 1: as a goddess, more as a, like a monster or a folklore figure. (10:17):
undefined

Track 1: So that's, that's really interesting. And to say that, I mean, 7000 years, (10:21):
undefined

Track 1: this is all news to me that this is a Slavic goddess that I'm guessing got maybe (10:26):
undefined

Track 1: appropriated and denigrated during the, by folklore or by somebody's take on folklore. (10:32):
undefined

Track 1: Lore so how did she go from being a goddess to this kind of horror movie figure. (10:38):
undefined

Track 2: Right and that's actually what princess olga her (10:42):
undefined

Track 2: grandson prince vladimir in that moment in year 980 so 980 he was still venerating (10:46):
undefined

Track 2: this goddess mokesh again again another divine female spirit she was of the (10:56):
undefined

Track 2: kiev of pantheon of goddesses, (11:01):
undefined

Track 2: if you're familiar at all with that piece of history in that area of the world. (11:04):
undefined

Track 2: So he put up a statue to this goddess, Mokesh, in 980. (11:09):
undefined

Track 2: Eight years later, he converted to Christianity, and he tore down this goddess statue. (11:13):
undefined

Track 2: And all of a sudden, all of these divine female statues, which again, (11:20):
undefined

Track 2: the divine female in this part of the world goes back like 7,000 years. (11:24):
undefined

Track 2: This is why we call it Mother Russia sometimes. (11:28):
undefined

Track 2: There's this idea of the divine feminine that is just between the lines of so (11:31):
undefined

Track 2: many pieces of Slavic culture. (11:35):
undefined

Track 2: Culture but in this moment christianity (11:37):
undefined

Track 2: starts to enter into the world in this (11:41):
undefined

Track 2: moment you have all of these people where the old faiths and the new faiths (11:44):
undefined

Track 2: combine this is where the devil starts becoming a major figure because remember (11:48):
undefined

Track 2: the devil was not really a major figure in the bible originally the devil yes (11:52):
undefined

Track 2: exactly is he became a big storyline to convert people to christianity you want to hear a funny joke. (11:57):
undefined

Track 1: By the way. (12:02):
undefined

Track 2: Oh please you know. (12:03):
undefined

Track 1: Why the devil that i i'm going to need to verify this but you know why the devil is seen as a goat figure. (12:04):
undefined

Track 2: Oh because in during. (12:10):
undefined

Track 1: In england at the time goats were seen as the most horrible animal because they (12:13):
undefined

Track 1: ate everyone's crops so the churches i depicted the devil as a goat because (12:18):
undefined

Track 1: that's what everyone hated and was afraid of so it's just kind of like old english stuff anyway. (12:23):
undefined

Track 2: Side note yeah i love side notes like this is my favorite thing and that's kind (12:27):
undefined

Track 2: of where this new book and where all of my latest Baba Yaga research, (12:32):
undefined

Track 2: it's just full of rabbit holes and the side notes. (12:35):
undefined

Track 2: And did you know this fascinating piece of history? (12:38):
undefined

Track 2: And yes, as we're all familiar with the story, the moment Christianity and old (12:42):
undefined

Track 2: belief systems merged, suddenly Baba Yaga, who was perhaps derived from goddesses who... (12:47):
undefined

Track 2: Were the people who helped transport people into life. (12:56):
undefined

Track 2: So the midwife figure, if you will, someone who would take a soul into being (13:00):
undefined

Track 2: born, but then on the other side of things, take that soul and be a partner (13:04):
undefined

Track 2: in death, going from the mortal realm to the other realm. (13:08):
undefined

Track 2: That goddess figure suddenly became partnered with the Christian devil figure. (13:12):
undefined

Track 2: And she was now a figure of death and the story changed. (13:18):
undefined

Track 2: And that's the fascinating thing about her because as you trace her record, (13:22):
undefined

Track 2: Her story changes and twists and morphs and cajoles and kind of the secrets (13:25):
undefined

Track 2: of her bloodlines just hiding between the lines. (13:31):
undefined

Track 1: Super interesting. So in assessing the Baba Yaga, so as a modern person looking (13:34):
undefined

Track 1: at Baba Yaga as an archetype or as a symbol, what was it about her? (13:39):
undefined

Track 1: What does she represent or what can she represent to modern people today? (13:44):
undefined

Track 1: And what was it about her in a modern context that seized your imagination so strongly? (13:49):
undefined

Track 2: It was the idea that she's a figure of transformation, not a figure of evil. (13:55):
undefined

Track 2: And some witches, as you know, from when I say the word witches, (14:01):
undefined

Track 2: I mean, in the classic storytale version of the word witch would fly around on a broom. (14:06):
undefined

Track 2: Baba Yaga does not fly around a broom. Baba Yaga has a pestle and a mortar. (14:12):
undefined

Track 2: So imagine your ancient apothecary tool or your ancient grinding of herbs or (14:17):
undefined

Track 2: what I have in my own kitchen for making my guacamole. (14:22):
undefined

Track 1: Okay. (14:27):
undefined

Track 2: Your mortar and your pestle. This was her vessel for sailing around the world. (14:27):
undefined

Track 2: She would have a giant stone, sometimes iron, bowl that she would ride around with. (14:32):
undefined

Track 2: And then the pestle that you would use for grinding in your mortar, (14:39):
undefined

Track 2: she would use this like a paddle and paddle through the skies. (14:42):
undefined

Track 2: In some versions of the stories, there is also a broom who flies magically behind (14:45):
undefined

Track 2: her to sweep away any tracks that she may be making. (14:49):
undefined

Track 2: But it's this idea of transformation that caught my eye. And I relate this with (14:53):
undefined

Track 2: the mortar because that's what she flies in. What is a mortar? (14:58):
undefined

Track 2: It's something that transforms herbs from the forest into medicine. (15:01):
undefined

Track 2: It's something that transforms ingredients into recipes and food and sustenance to nourish us. (15:05):
undefined

Track 2: That piece of transformation hides between so many aspects. (15:13):
undefined

Track 1: Interesting. Yeah, that's a bit like, I suppose it's very alchemical. (15:17):
undefined

Track 1: It's like Shiva transmuting poisons. (15:21):
undefined

Track 1: I like that. That's interesting. I imagine that appeal to you that, (15:23):
undefined

Track 1: you know, obviously story is all about transformation. (15:28):
undefined

Track 1: So I imagine that appeal to you from a storytelling perspective as well. (15:31):
undefined

Track 2: Exactly. And yes, whether you're making your own stories, whether you're analyzing (15:35):
undefined

Track 2: why certain stories across world literature stuck, like she stuck for some reason. (15:39):
undefined

Track 1: Why do you think some stories stick and others don't? Have you found common (15:46):
undefined

Track 1: denominators among the stories that have been with us for unbelievably long (15:50):
undefined

Track 1: periods of time like this and those that kind of are ephemeral and disappear? (15:55):
undefined

Track 2: Absolutely. And I think it's those stories that hit on emotional touch points (15:59):
undefined

Track 2: that remind us that humanity hasn't actually changed yet. (16:04):
undefined

Track 2: We feel so modern sometimes that we're living and we have these supercomputers (16:09):
undefined

Track 2: in our pockets and we are doing all of these modern things. (16:13):
undefined

Track 2: However, who we are as humanity, how we connect with other people hasn't changed. (16:16):
undefined

Track 2: How we communicate with other people hasn't changed for thousands upon thousands (16:22):
undefined

Track 2: upon thousands of years. (16:26):
undefined

Track 2: The emotions that we have, the gut reactions that we have, this is just humanity (16:28):
undefined

Track 2: and stories that tap into who we are and who we could become. (16:33):
undefined

Track 2: Again, it's a matter of transformation. (16:37):
undefined

Track 2: Who among us doesn't want to transform into better versions of ourselves or who knows what else? (16:39):
undefined

Track 1: Well, there's, of course, the additional resonance here of that it's Ukraine, (16:46):
undefined

Track 1: you know, which is obviously a topic in the news quite a bit. (16:52):
undefined

Track 1: Is that something is seeing the very, very tragic conflict in that part of the world? (16:55):
undefined

Track 1: Is that something that has been on your mind while you've been working on this project? (17:02):
undefined

Track 1: Or has it has that kind of woven through the process at all? Right. (17:05):
undefined

Track 2: Yes, absolutely. I'm Ukrainian. I'm first generation American. (17:10):
undefined

Track 2: My mother was not born in the States. (17:16):
undefined

Track 2: My prior book, The Baba Yaga Mask, which is my novel about the Ukrainian grandmother, (17:18):
undefined

Track 2: and it's a dual timeline going back and forth between World War II and the present day. (17:25):
undefined

Track 2: That book documents the last time ukraine was occupied by foreign forces en masse in 1941 okay. (17:30):
undefined

Track 1: And that was by that was by russia or germany. (17:43):
undefined

Track 2: Russia and germany at the same time okay during world war ii so you have russia (17:47):
undefined

Track 2: coming in or you have germany coming in from one side russia coming in from (17:51):
undefined

Track 2: the other side ukraine has just wanted to be its own country for a very long long time. (17:54):
undefined

Track 2: And that is in the blood of every story I have heard since I was born about (17:59):
undefined

Track 2: the national pride of Ukrainians. (18:02):
undefined

Track 2: I wrote The Baba Yaga Mask, which is fiction documenting the World War II story (18:05):
undefined

Track 2: of Western Ukraine, because that was a story that I didn't think the world knew. (18:09):
undefined

Track 2: And I told it through the story of multiple generations of very strong women. (18:13):
undefined

Track 2: And I told it through the lens of how folktales are a part of Ukrainian culture (18:18):
undefined

Track 2: and folk art and dance and flowers and so many pieces are a part of Ukrainian culture. (18:23):
undefined

Track 2: That book came out five weeks after Russia invaded Ukraine. (18:27):
undefined

Track 1: Whoa. Most recently. Wow. Okay. Yeah. (18:31):
undefined

Track 2: So cut to me, every book that comes out, the author wants it to be timely, but I'm not like that. (18:35):
undefined

Track 1: Not that timely. No. (18:41):
undefined

Track 2: And it really was a moment where I called my, or I had a conversation with my (18:43):
undefined

Track 2: publisher where I'm like, okay, sure. I should be doing publicity. (18:47):
undefined

Track 2: I should be doing jazz hands by my book. (18:50):
undefined

Track 2: And I called them and I'm just said, I need a moment. I can't wave my hands (18:52):
undefined

Track 2: and say, buy this book right now. (18:57):
undefined

Track 2: A war has broken out. We have family friends who are there. air. (18:58):
undefined

Track 2: I can't do this. And it was really in kind of rallying together with people (19:02):
undefined

Track 2: in my own Ukraine community where I found the power of, wait a minute, (19:07):
undefined

Track 2: this is not a stop the presses moment. (19:11):
undefined

Track 2: This is a moment of the world needs to know the history of Ukraine. (19:12):
undefined

Track 2: The world needs to know Ukrainian identity. And the Baba Yaga book that has (19:16):
undefined

Track 2: now emerged is a continuation of that same mission. Yes. (19:21):
undefined

Track 1: This is fascinating. This is fascinating. I don't know how much you want (19:25):
undefined

Track 1: to go into into conflict instead of mythology but (19:28):
undefined

Track 1: you know my my my podcast listeners are (19:31):
undefined

Track 1: all gonna groan because i've mentioned this book probably more (19:34):
undefined

Track 1: than 25 times on this podcast but bloodlands by timothy snyder you know timothy (19:37):
undefined

Track 1: snyder yeah i read that book a couple years ago and it that's the story of ukraine (19:41):
undefined

Track 1: during in part during that time period and that that i i have that is the most (19:47):
undefined

Track 1: horrifying book i've read in my entire life and i wanted to be a horror writer when i was younger. (19:51):
undefined

Track 1: I've never read something that brutal and I've read a lot of stuff. (19:55):
undefined

Track 1: That tells the story of Ukraine from a war perspective, but I would absolutely (20:00):
undefined

Track 1: love to hear you talk about that period of time from the angle that you've just (20:07):
undefined

Track 1: mentioned, which is women's perspective. (20:11):
undefined

Track 2: Absolutely, because any war (20:13):
undefined

Track 2: story across history, we always hear the men's perspective of that novel. (20:16):
undefined

Track 2: And for me, and I guess this can twist back and forth into the Bob Iaga conversation. (20:22):
undefined

Track 1: Yes. (20:27):
undefined

Track 2: When I was a kid, my grandparents who survived World War II in Ukraine in this moment where, (20:27):
undefined

Track 2: Russia is, or Soviets were coming in on one side, and then on the other side, (20:35):
undefined

Track 2: you have Germany who has already decimated Poland, or excuse me, (20:40):
undefined

Track 2: the Nazis that have just decimated Poland are coming in saying, oh, wait, (20:44):
undefined

Track 2: we'll help save you from, we'll help you become an independent country and kick out all the Soviets. (20:48):
undefined

Track 2: And you're listening to the Nazi regime say this and they have everybody over (20:54):
undefined

Track 2: here and all they want is to be independent. (21:00):
undefined

Track 2: And for about two weeks in 1941, Ukraine was an independent country for two weeks in 1941. (21:01):
undefined

Track 2: And these are the stories I've grown up with. My family never had anything for better or for worse. (21:09):
undefined

Track 2: My family never had any filters on what they told the children. (21:14):
undefined

Track 2: We heard the stories about my grandfather father (21:19):
undefined

Track 2: escaping a prisoner of war camp and walking (21:22):
undefined

Track 2: across the mountains trying to survive for weeks (21:25):
undefined

Track 2: we heard the stories of war we heard the stories of burning (21:28):
undefined

Track 2: houses and families dying and people being murdered and (21:32):
undefined

Track 2: witnessed and we heard these stories for better (21:36):
undefined

Track 2: for worse it shaped me and who i am and the strength that i have found inside (21:39):
undefined

Track 2: of myself as a woman and of the strength of family The strength of Ukrainian (21:44):
undefined

Track 2: pride and the strength of how we're all so much stronger than give ourselves credit for sometimes. (21:49):
undefined

Track 2: And circumstances like that, they change us. (21:57):
undefined

Track 2: And I think they change the DNA of a family, but they change the DNA of a people. (22:01):
undefined

Track 2: And I think Baba Yaga as a character, she forces readers to be faced with horror. (22:05):
undefined

Track 2: And what will you do in that situation? And will you rise up to be your best self? (22:14):
undefined

Track 2: And if you rise up to be your best self, Vasilisa the Beautiful will be whisked (22:18):
undefined

Track 2: away from her terrible situation, and she will end up marrying the Tsar. (22:25):
undefined

Track 2: I mean, who doesn't want that story? I mean, maybe not exactly that story. (22:29):
undefined

Track 2: But Baba Yaga has this great side if you can endure her. (22:33):
undefined

Track 2: So what does that say to all of us? The moments sometimes are painful and sometimes (22:37):
undefined

Track 2: we have to endure, but we can get through and magic can happen. (22:42):
undefined

Track 1: So is Baba Yaga in that sense the creator or the witness or the refuge from horror? Yeah. (22:46):
undefined

Track 2: She is the horror, but she's also the catalyst in this situation where she is (22:54):
undefined

Track 2: the one who is, that's why she's so fascinating as a character to me, (23:01):
undefined

Track 2: because she's not good. She's not bad. (23:04):
undefined

Track 2: She's a trickster sometimes, but she allows all of the darkness of the world (23:06):
undefined

Track 2: to be right up front and in your face. (23:13):
undefined

Track 2: And she will purposefully terrify you to see if you can handle it. (23:16):
undefined

Track 1: Wow. (23:21):
undefined

Track 2: And this is just a historical record of stories. (23:21):
undefined

Track 2: Really, really fun thing about writing Becoming Baba Yaga as a nonfiction analysis (23:25):
undefined

Track 2: of the history of this one folktale character and the history of Slavic culture (23:30):
undefined

Track 2: and the history of goddesses and how we can take so much personal transformation (23:35):
undefined

Track 2: out of understanding folktales. (23:40):
undefined

Track 2: The really, really fun part of this is that I got to tell the folktales amid the analysis. (23:42):
undefined

Track 2: So I was one of the earliest conversations with my publishers on this is we (23:50):
undefined

Track 2: were talking about the analysis and how much fun this would be to write this book. (23:54):
undefined

Track 2: But then I got to say, well, what if we, between every single chapter, (23:57):
undefined

Track 2: told a story, leaned into the darkness of the folktales and retold a classic? (24:01):
undefined

Track 2: So it's kind of my version of the classic, but it's still the classics. (24:06):
undefined

Track 2: And so they go back and forth between classic, sometimes horrifying tales, (24:10):
undefined

Track 2: sometimes intriguing, sometimes playful, sometimes magical, but it's all kind (24:15):
undefined

Track 2: of the Baba Yaga canon over 300 years or so, if you will. (24:19):
undefined

Track 2: But then talking about how she can teach us so much, no matter how you think about her. (24:23):
undefined

Track 1: This is incredible. And I'm thinking this seems so, and not just because of (24:30):
undefined

Track 1: the conflict in Ukraine, but just because of the state of the world right now (24:36):
undefined

Track 1: where people's minds at. (24:39):
undefined

Track 1: This is such a profound and powerful concept. (24:40):
undefined

Track 1: And I think that this is the type of expression of the divine that people tend (24:44):
undefined

Track 1: to be gravitating towards a bit more. I mean, I've talked to people like Dr. (24:49):
undefined

Track 1: Cressida Stone, who wrote a book about Santa Muerte, who's very popular now. (24:53):
undefined

Track 1: Kali is forever perennially popular. Babylon is someone we talk about a lot. (24:56):
undefined

Track 1: And these are all goddesses that confront you with reality as it is, not how you wish it to be. (25:01):
undefined

Track 1: And that is something that just feels so necessary right now because we don't live in a Disney world. (25:09):
undefined

Track 1: We never did. You know, but some people in America, some, not all people in (25:16):
undefined

Track 1: America have been able to pretend that everything's fine when of course it never was. (25:20):
undefined

Track 1: But now it's, you know, we're, we are confronted with horror every day and whether (25:24):
undefined

Track 1: it's the conflicts that are going on or the political chaos or the general kind (25:30):
undefined

Track 1: of disintegration and confusion and ideological confusion. (25:34):
undefined

Track 1: It's a scary time. So I can see how people would be. (25:40):
undefined

Track 1: I mean, I feel resonant with this concept. I had no idea that Baba Yaga even was a goddess. (25:43):
undefined

Track 1: So this is, I feel resonant with this as you're talking about it. (25:48):
undefined

Track 1: And when you put it in the context of Ukraine, I mean, it's like when you, (25:52):
undefined

Track 1: read about what happened in that part of the world during that time and what's (25:56):
undefined

Track 1: happening now, but at that time, Ukraine, Belarus, Poland, not just in World (26:01):
undefined

Track 1: War II, but in the famine in the the 30s. (26:06):
undefined

Track 2: It staggers belief. (26:09):
undefined

Track 1: It's it's the type of thing that just cannot even enter the mind of the average (26:10):
undefined

Track 1: western you know american. (26:14):
undefined

Track 2: Absolutely and another piece that i think the average listener (26:16):
undefined

Track 2: doesn't appreciate about that part of the world i mean i'm ukrainian so i'm (26:19):
undefined

Track 2: going to say it's a piece of ukrainian identity is how much art and poetry and (26:23):
undefined

Track 2: literature and music and just all of the arts are such a part of the living experience. (26:31):
undefined

Track 2: This is being alive and the symbolism and just all of the different motifs that are woven in. (26:37):
undefined

Track 2: This is such an essential piece of the whole. So folktales are not a frivolous piece of a culture. (26:44):
undefined

Track 2: Frivolous in terms of, or they can be twisted into morality tales depending on who tells them. (26:53):
undefined

Track 2: They can be twisted into bedtime stories and such. (26:59):
undefined

Track 2: But when When you look at folk art embroidery, (27:02):
undefined

Track 2: when you look at the pysynka, the Ukrainian Easter eggs that are designed very (27:06):
undefined

Track 2: meticulously, when you look at the music, the dancing, (27:11):
undefined

Track 2: there are so many metaphors and messages between the lines tell you the story (27:15):
undefined

Track 2: of a culture and the story and wishes and dreams of people. (27:21):
undefined

Track 2: And Baba Yaga is very much a part of that conversation. (27:25):
undefined

Track 1: You mentioned previously that, you know, war, the novel of war is usually told (27:28):
undefined

Track 1: from the men's perspective. (27:34):
undefined

Track 1: And one of the things that I've been thinking recently is that's probably because (27:35):
undefined

Track 1: war from men's perspective is not nearly as horrific as it is from women's perspective, (27:39):
undefined

Track 1: the perspective of women and children. (27:45):
undefined

Track 1: And most men probably couldn't handle it to see the reality. (27:46):
undefined

Track 1: And you know so (27:50):
undefined

Track 1: so to talk about well i'm i i'm still curious about like the kind of that that (27:53):
undefined

Track 1: time period or now from women's perspective definitely i'm definitely interested (27:58):
undefined

Track 1: in that story and how women saw that and how the figure and please don't filter yourself at all, (28:04):
undefined

Track 1: and how Baba Yaga as a symbol may have been there or part of that or rather, (28:11):
undefined

Track 1: as you're talking, it strikes me that periods like that, (28:21):
undefined

Track 1: only the strongest and deepest and most important stories and symbols are going (28:25):
undefined

Track 1: to survive that and come out of that. (28:29):
undefined

Track 1: And for something like this to survive for 7,000 years shows that there's something (28:31):
undefined

Track 1: really deep and resonant and possibly... (28:35):
undefined

Track 1: A big part of Ukrainian resilience, that type of thing. But I know I just said (28:37):
undefined

Track 1: a lot, but maybe talk about, if you can talk about that time period for people (28:41):
undefined

Track 1: who don't know and from women's perspective, please. (28:47):
undefined

Track 2: Oh, absolutely. So sometimes when we talk about stories of people's beliefs and folk beliefs, (28:50):
undefined

Track 2: people think that it is a far distant time period where people in different (28:59):
undefined

Track 2: cultures believed certain aspects. (29:06):
undefined

Track 2: For my grandmother as a child, she was born in 1920 in Western Ukraine. (29:08):
undefined

Track 2: For my grandmother as a child, Baba Yaga was real. (29:13):
undefined

Track 2: As a whore, as I wouldn't say necessarily as a goddess, (29:16):
undefined

Track 2: but she was a real figure who lived in the woods, who prayed upon children who (29:20):
undefined

Track 2: weren't good enough and at their best. (29:28):
undefined

Track 2: My grandmother truly believed that if she took a shortcut through the woods. (29:32):
undefined

Track 2: She needed to keep her head down and keep on the path and not waver. (29:37):
undefined

Track 2: And for someone who was perhaps a bit imperfect, my grandmother definitely had a rebellious side. (29:42):
undefined

Track 2: She was terrified of this witch who lived in the woods. (29:49):
undefined

Track 2: By the time Baba Yaga was first introduced to me, I knew her as a character, (29:54):
undefined

Track 2: not someone who I was truly terrified of. (29:58):
undefined

Track 2: But this idea of knowing my grandmother as a young child and like as through (30:00):
undefined

Track 2: a teenager, probably through the time when World War II hit Ukraine, (30:06):
undefined

Track 2: she had this belief of this horror in the woods and how to survive that. (30:10):
undefined

Track 2: Cut to a time in world history where (30:16):
undefined

Track 2: you have the forced famine (30:19):
undefined

Track 2: in the east of ukraine in the 1930s where (30:23):
undefined

Track 2: crops are stolen and ukrainians are starving because of circumstances outside (30:27):
undefined

Track 2: of their control while world leaders are shown shows of as the story goes actors (30:32):
undefined

Track 2: in ukrainian dress that are (30:41):
undefined

Track 2: rosy-cheeked and healthy whenever government officials come by to check on, (30:43):
undefined

Track 2: is this real, this thing going on in Ukraine? (30:47):
undefined

Track 2: And so whenever the reporters come by, acts are put on, but then thousands upon (30:50):
undefined

Track 2: thousands of thousands of people are dying and starving in Eastern Ukraine. (30:55):
undefined

Track 2: My family's not on that side of the country. (30:58):
undefined

Track 1: Can I throw in one side note here? Just for my audience, one of those, (31:01):
undefined

Track 1: I don't want to disrupt your flow, but one of those reporters I believe was Walter Durante, (31:06):
undefined

Track 1: who was an associate of Alistair Crowley, who was goofing off with Alistair Crowley, (31:10):
undefined

Track 1: but then went on to be responsible for, did this for the New York Times, (31:16):
undefined

Track 1: and was more or less responsible for the West failing to intervene in Ukraine (31:20):
undefined

Track 1: because he was just parroting Stalin's propaganda. (31:23):
undefined

Track 1: So that's a very dark, dark part of New Age history, shall we say. (31:26):
undefined

Track 1: I just wanted to throw that in. I'm sorry for interrupting your flow. (31:31):
undefined

Track 2: Oh, not at all. I mean, the more we take the time to listen to these these stories, (31:34):
undefined

Track 2: the more that unfolds that is unimaginable and makes us re-examine our modern day, (31:39):
undefined

Track 2: makes us re-examine our ancestry and our blood and so many things. (31:48):
undefined

Track 2: But yeah, so that was in eastern Ukraine in the early 1930s. (31:53):
undefined

Track 2: In western Ukraine, the Galicia region around Lviv was a big cultural center, (31:59):
undefined

Track 2: very close, I guess, Poland, getting very close to those lines. (32:05):
undefined

Track 2: In fact, the area where my grandfather grew up. (32:09):
undefined

Track 2: When he was born, it was Ukraine. When he was in nursery school age, he was in Poland. (32:13):
undefined

Track 2: He didn't move cities, same exact city. And then it went back to Ukraine. (32:22):
undefined

Track 2: The border was going through this through his entire childhood because territory was being seized. (32:25):
undefined

Track 2: People were being called one thing or another. the ukrainian (32:30):
undefined

Track 2: language in some circumstances was being banned again (32:33):
undefined

Track 2: a long long story it's like modern day (32:37):
undefined

Track 2: ukrainian now is very russianized just (32:40):
undefined

Track 2: because so much of influence of the soviet union (32:43):
undefined

Track 2: for decades upon decades upon decades ukrainian now (32:46):
undefined

Track 2: is not the same as ukraine 100 years ukrainian 100 years ago just because of (32:49):
undefined

Track 2: forced foreign influence influences but anyway so my my family in that area (32:55):
undefined

Track 2: was watching a massive independence movement take place. (33:01):
undefined

Track 2: My family had poets and orchestra players in the symphony and the university. (33:07):
undefined

Track 2: My family was very involved with the arts in that region. (33:13):
undefined

Track 2: And it's just interesting to me how the arts are so much of a form of protest. (33:17):
undefined

Track 2: And maybe that's where the writer in me comes out because there are stories (33:21):
undefined

Track 2: to tell and there are truths to be told. (33:24):
undefined

Track 1: So how do you feel about Putin's kind of revanchism and his narrative about it being us. (33:26):
undefined

Track 1: I know all of this history plays into the conflict now, but Putin has, (33:31):
undefined

Track 1: of course, spun a lot of mythology, particularly to our modern day Walter Durante, (33:35):
undefined

Track 1: Tucker Carlson, about, you know, it being a special operation to denazify Ukraine. (33:41):
undefined

Track 1: And they have owned that land back to the 900s under Yaroslav the Wise or whatever it was. (33:47):
undefined

Track 1: How do you I know this is a bit of a leading question, but how do how do Ukrainians feel about that? (33:53):
undefined

Track 2: I don't want to get too modern-day political, but I'll point you to the poet (33:59):
undefined

Track 2: known as the father of Ukrainian poetry, (34:06):
undefined

Track 2: Taras Shevchenko, who was a nationalistic poet of the late 1800s who was fighting (34:08):
undefined

Track 2: for Ukrainian independence and survival then, (34:16):
undefined

Track 2: knowing how many centuries the battle had been going when he was writing his poetry. (34:20):
undefined

Track 2: This is not a simple story. Right when my novel, The Baba Yaga Mask, came out in 2022, (34:25):
undefined

Track 2: there was a news report, because Russia had just invaded Ukraine at that time, (34:31):
undefined

Track 2: where they're giving the historical context of this moment. (34:38):
undefined

Track 2: And they were saying, this goes all the way back to the 1990s. (34:40):
undefined

Track 2: And I looked at this article, and I just stood there. And I was just, (34:45):
undefined

Track 2: but all the way back to the 1990s. (34:49):
undefined

Track 2: And so I literally, I wrote the reporter and I'm just like, please, (34:53):
undefined

Track 2: if we're going to talk about this context, let's get the context right here. (34:55):
undefined

Track 2: This story goes far back beyond the 90s. (34:59):
undefined

Track 2: I think, as we know, charismatic world leaders can be very good at spinning stories. (35:03):
undefined

Track 2: And I think the challenge of the modern day is to figure out what's a good story (35:09):
undefined

Track 2: and what is real and what is being left out and what is being woven in, (35:14):
undefined

Track 2: perhaps not quite as accurately as it could be. (35:19):
undefined

Track 2: And I think that's a lesson in foreign politics, American politics and what have you. (35:22):
undefined

Track 1: One thing that's struck me about the last couple of years of world conflict is how much war now is, (35:28):
undefined

Track 1: yes, on the ground, but also a world war for narrative and, you know, (35:36):
undefined

Track 1: every day on social media. (35:42):
undefined

Track 1: Like, what's the story? How are we spinning this? How are people, (35:44):
undefined

Track 1: how are teenagers spinning the story of a war to their followers on TikTok? (35:47):
undefined

Track 2: Right. (35:53):
undefined

Track 1: And that must be, I imagine, fascinating and infuriating as a storyteller, (35:54):
undefined

Track 1: because kind of the idea, (35:59):
undefined

Track 1: you know, the old, the idea of story structures, and I love to talk about that (36:01):
undefined

Track 1: the idea of story structure, I'm not sure how valid it is now in the social (36:05):
undefined

Track 1: media age, because now we live in a we live in a, like information blizzard (36:09):
undefined

Track 1: society, where it's all atomized. (36:13):
undefined

Track 1: And people create their everyone creates their own story by connecting dots (36:16):
undefined

Track 1: in the blizzard, and everyone's is different and. (36:21):
undefined

Track 2: Every one of those thoughts is built off of headlines, not actually the stories themselves. Yeah. (36:24):
undefined

Track 1: How do you, how do you cope with that as a writer? (36:29):
undefined

Track 2: It's fascinating to me because I feel like so many people are terrified of artificial (36:31):
undefined

Track 2: intelligence and how artificial intelligence is going to change the narrative of the world. (36:36):
undefined

Track 2: And it's like, guys, we're not doing that. (36:40):
undefined

Track 2: I mean, that's a different conversation with its own bugaboos and its own hopes (36:43):
undefined

Track 2: and its own horrors. Just like Baba Yaga. (36:47):
undefined

Track 2: But I feel like the mastery of storytelling, the mastery of a hook, (36:50):
undefined

Track 2: of a lead that will snag somebody's attention, it's always... (36:55):
undefined

Track 2: And now I feel like I'm teaching a writing class, which I also love to do. (37:01):
undefined

Track 2: It's always a combination of knowing who is your audience, what do they already (37:04):
undefined

Track 2: know, and what do they care about? (37:09):
undefined

Track 2: Because if you know who your audience is and what they care about, (37:11):
undefined

Track 2: you can spin your story to hook exactly them. And I think that is the social (37:14):
undefined

Track 2: media amazing slash horror show going on right now. (37:21):
undefined

Track 2: And it's true on social media. It's true on news media. (37:25):
undefined

Track 2: It's true in so many facets of life right now is that people have gotten so (37:27):
undefined

Track 2: good at defining very specific niche audiences. (37:31):
undefined

Track 2: And what is the very specific care, dream, worry, fear that that one specific (37:35):
undefined

Track 2: audience has and that to ram them with this one spin of the story, which then explodes. (37:40):
undefined

Track 2: It's a talent. And for those of us in communications, it's amazing when you can do that. (37:46):
undefined

Track 2: However, it can be used for good or for evil. (37:51):
undefined

Track 1: Yeah, absolutely. Particularly in the age of social media where people can be (37:54):
undefined

Track 1: targeted based on their interests and you can narrow cast to people. (37:59):
undefined

Track 1: And you mentioned earlier how stories show us that human beings are not that (38:03):
undefined

Track 1: complicated and don't change that much over time. (38:10):
undefined

Track 1: And that also means that humans have the same, how do I put it, (38:13):
undefined

Track 1: weaknesses to certain narratives and emotional buttons that can be pushed. And that never changes. (38:18):
undefined

Track 1: And people don't seem to, I mean, people don't really do critical thinking much (38:23):
undefined

Track 1: at all anymore, but people don't seem to get better at resisting that type of thing. (38:27):
undefined

Track 2: It's true. And that's, again, that's where folktales are fascinating because (38:33):
undefined

Track 2: folktales are not long narrative. (38:36):
undefined

Track 2: We're not talking about Homer's Odyssey here. (38:39):
undefined

Track 2: And I say that absolutely loving, long, epic narrative poetry and other works. (38:41):
undefined

Track 2: But folktales are snippets. They are bedtime stories. They are stories told (38:48):
undefined

Track 2: among friends at dinnertime, classically. (38:51):
undefined

Track 2: They are short and accessible and entertaining. (38:54):
undefined

Track 2: But at the same time, we have these moments of whether you are reading it or (38:57):
undefined

Track 2: whether you are listening to it, you are living this story alongside with the protagonist. (39:03):
undefined

Track 2: Whether that protagonist is a maiden walking through the woods, (39:08):
undefined

Track 2: whether that protagonist is a prince named Ivan, because really, (39:11):
undefined

Track 2: let's be real, in Slavic folklore, this protagonist is 50% a prince named Ivan. (39:15):
undefined

Track 2: We're talking the firebird or something else. It's always a prince named Ivan (39:20):
undefined

Track 2: or a maiden named Vasilisa. (39:24):
undefined

Track 2: And that's just like the two top names right there in folklore. (39:26):
undefined

Track 2: It's like Jack and the Beanstalk. There's always a Jack in folklore. (39:29):
undefined

Track 2: But when you're living those stories that are short, you see the beginning, (39:33):
undefined

Track 2: middle, and end in a very short timeframe. (39:38):
undefined

Track 2: You're seeing the journey. You're having those moments when When you're experiencing (39:40):
undefined

Track 2: them as a listener or as a reader, what would I do in this situation? (39:43):
undefined

Track 2: What would I do in this situation? (39:47):
undefined

Track 2: And you're forced to confront whether you would be as brave as that protagonist, (39:48):
undefined

Track 2: as weak as that protagonist. Is it actually weakness? (39:53):
undefined

Track 2: Is that actually a good choice, a bad choice? (39:57):
undefined

Track 2: And this is why storytelling makes us stronger people, because we suddenly have (40:00):
undefined

Track 2: to empathize with people in different shoes and different circumstances, (40:06):
undefined

Track 2: examine ourselves and the people around us in a completely new light. (40:09):
undefined

Track 2: And folktales are just short, sweet snippets of that. (40:13):
undefined

Track 1: Do you feel that folktales are also... (40:17):
undefined

Track 1: Particularly because they've survived so long, (40:21):
undefined

Track 1: do you feel that they are portals back to what is most true and most real and (40:24):
undefined

Track 1: most lasting, but also do you think that they will survive the social media age? (40:32):
undefined

Track 2: Passage absolutely i mean think right now in (40:37):
undefined

Track 2: film in literature think about how many retail retellings are happening right (40:40):
undefined

Track 2: now think about retellings of beauty and the beast think about snow white cinderella (40:45):
undefined

Track 2: like all your classic grim fairy tales people are obsessed with them and it's (40:49):
undefined

Track 2: not purely a nostalgia factor people are obsessed with them because sometimes old stories speak (40:54):
undefined

Track 2: eternal truths and sometimes migratory patterns or i don't know email threads (40:59):
undefined

Track 2: might change the narrative of them a little bit but it was migratory patterns (41:07):
undefined

Track 2: that took old story goddesses and twisted them into witches it was say more about that. (41:13):
undefined

Track 1: What you just said it was migratory patterns that took old stories and twisted (41:19):
undefined

Track 1: them into witches what did you mean by that. (41:23):
undefined

Track 2: So you have all of these classic stories whether (41:25):
undefined

Track 2: we're talking about maddie sira zemnya which is (41:28):
undefined

Track 2: kind of a old goddess i think (41:31):
undefined

Track 2: about 2 000 years old who was the one who you would (41:34):
undefined

Track 2: speak to her and she would proclaim her judgments by whispering whispering her (41:37):
undefined

Track 2: secrets into the holes in the earth you had mokesh who was the one that the (41:42):
undefined

Track 2: statue that the grandson of princess olga of kiev with the pigeons and the fire (41:46):
undefined

Track 2: and burning of the village down you have the statues that went up and down. (41:51):
undefined

Track 2: You had Christianity that was coming in at the same time. (41:55):
undefined

Track 2: There are a lot of forces. And as more people leave their small villages and (41:59):
undefined

Track 2: find the world outside of them, what do they hear? They hear more stories. (42:03):
undefined

Track 2: And you know what? Sometimes it's a massive game of telephone that you remember (42:07):
undefined

Track 2: this really good story and then you tell it to somebody else and they love this (42:12):
undefined

Track 2: story and they tell it to somebody else. (42:15):
undefined

Track 2: And by the time you get to that fifth person, it's a drastically different story (42:16):
undefined

Track 2: but then take that onto a migratory route where you have, (42:20):
undefined

Track 2: someone in ancient greece trading with somebody in egypt who is trading with (42:25):
undefined

Track 2: somebody around the slavic lands and don't get me started on stories about the (42:32):
undefined

Track 2: amazons and how they are true that's a whole different conversation please please. (42:36):
undefined

Track 1: Yeah please do stories about amazons and how they're true what do you mean. (42:39):
undefined

Track 2: So to finish the (42:43):
undefined

Track 2: one thought i'll go back yes yes yeah um but giant games (42:45):
undefined

Track 2: of telephones when you start crossing cultural lines things (42:49):
undefined

Track 2: twist and expand in different ways and it's fascinating to (42:52):
undefined

Track 2: see how similar stories exist in nearby and very far off places and tracing (42:55):
undefined

Track 2: like world histories of explorers and how those stories sometimes can find their (43:00):
undefined

Track 2: similar route you have some some archaea what were they they weren't archaeologists they were, (43:06):
undefined

Track 2: There were anthropologists from, I believe, Ireland just recently did this with (43:14):
undefined

Track 2: the Beauty and the Beast narrative and traced it back thousands upon thousands (43:18):
undefined

Track 2: of world and figuring out where was the root story that this came from. (43:22):
undefined

Track 1: Where was it? (43:25):
undefined

Track 2: And they just did this fascinating study. Oh, but so going back to how Omer's (43:25):
undefined

Track 2: The Odyssey is also a fascinating piece of world literature and what can we (43:31):
undefined

Track 2: learn from that? There's thousands of things we could have on that conversation. (43:35):
undefined

Track 2: But he speaks of the Amazons. Well, there are burial mounds that have been dug up in the past 20 years, (43:39):
undefined

Track 2: even amid the war happening in Ukraine right now, of female warriors whose skeletons are bow-legged, (43:46):
undefined

Track 2: which points to they were on horseback. (43:55):
undefined

Track 2: They were buried with bows and arrows (43:57):
undefined

Track 2: and expensive expensive like jewelry (44:00):
undefined

Track 2: and offering not offerings jewelry and (44:04):
undefined

Track 2: just things that kind of showed that there was a certain level of status in (44:07):
undefined

Track 2: a female-based warrior society and their burial mounds and this has been in (44:11):
undefined

Track 2: the new york times in the past 10 years and it's like we'll put this together (44:16):
undefined

Track 2: with the telephone game of migration patterns of okay there were these women (44:19):
undefined

Track 2: who were very strong warriors on horseback back, (44:24):
undefined

Track 2: the story is told, the story is told, the story is told, (44:26):
undefined

Track 2: and all of a sudden you have these immortal women of how we know the Amazons (44:29):
undefined

Track 2: according to the Greeks. (44:34):
undefined

Track 2: There's some truth to the kernel of the story. (44:36):
undefined

Track 2: So again, yeah, I have a whole section on the Amazons in here too, (44:39):
undefined

Track 2: because the Amazons can travel. (44:43):
undefined

Track 2: You know what else Baba Yaga can do? (44:46):
undefined

Track 2: Baba Yaga can travel. She lives in a house that stands on chicken feet so that (44:48):
undefined

Track 2: no one can find her. If someone is approaching her, her house can stand up and (44:54):
undefined

Track 2: turn around so they can't find the front door. (44:58):
undefined

Track 2: In some versions, her house just spins and spins and spins. (45:00):
undefined

Track 2: And in some versions, her house stands and runs to a darker part of the forest (45:03):
undefined

Track 2: so she can never be found. (45:07):
undefined

Track 2: But if you look at ancient migratory legends. (45:08):
undefined

Track 2: Farming societies where they actually moved from one location and then when (45:13):
undefined

Track 2: that soil was done, they moved to a different location. (45:17):
undefined

Track 2: There's a long history of nomadic cultures in Slavic worlds. (45:19):
undefined

Track 2: But again, does that play into the Baba Yaga moving house story? Does it? Does it not? (45:24):
undefined

Track 2: Does this whole history of women who are very strong but mobile, (45:29):
undefined

Track 2: does that play into the Baba Yaga story? (45:32):
undefined

Track 2: So again, sometimes we don't always know the answers, but chasing the possibilities (45:34):
undefined

Track 2: is a a, what a hero's quest. (45:40):
undefined

Track 1: I love that you mentioned hero's quest. Cause that goes into one of my next (45:42):
undefined

Track 1: questions, but I was just real quick. (45:46):
undefined

Track 1: Did they, did they find the original source of the beauty and the B story? (45:48):
undefined

Track 2: Oh, they did. And I'm so not prepared with that answer. Yes. There was a study. (45:52):
undefined

Track 2: I think it was out of, Oh gosh, I want to say university of Limerick, (45:57):
undefined

Track 2: but I'm probably making that up. I can shoot it to you for your audience. (46:01):
undefined

Track 1: So yes, there. (46:04):
undefined

Track 2: Was some fascinating any stuff on that. (46:07):
undefined

Track 1: You mentioned the hero's journey i was going to ask you about that because that's (46:08):
undefined

Track 1: something i've been thinking recently it is boring like the the monomyth the (46:11):
undefined

Track 1: joseph campbell like we've been subjected to it every day of our lives for so (46:16):
undefined

Track 1: particularly since star wars came out and, (46:20):
undefined

Track 1: it's just you know like i was in hollywood for 11 years and everyone uses that (46:24):
undefined

Track 1: as the template for for everything and it's it's tedious and it's not not that (46:29):
undefined

Track 1: it's not great it's just you know if you (46:34):
undefined

Track 1: eat carrots for dinner every night, carrots are going to not be great. (46:36):
undefined

Track 2: Yeah. (46:40):
undefined

Track 1: So, and one thing that I've been thinking about more recently is other story (46:40):
undefined

Track 1: structures and particularly more female story structures like the descent of Inanna. (46:45):
undefined

Track 1: But when you talk about Baba Yaga and these stories that are not just female (46:51):
undefined

Track 1: stories, but stories about the dark feminine or the dark goddess, (46:57):
undefined

Track 1: what your thoughts on that from a, you know, are there other, (47:01):
undefined

Track 1: you know, What is the story structure of that as opposed to the male hero's journey? (47:04):
undefined

Track 2: Absolutely. I love this question so much. So often when we're talking about, (47:10):
undefined

Track 2: oh goodness, the divine feminine, for example, sometimes we'll be talking about the triple goddesses. (47:16):
undefined

Track 2: Sometimes we'll speak of the concept of maiden, mother, crone. (47:22):
undefined

Track 2: With Baba Yaga, I like to always morph (47:26):
undefined

Track 2: the word maiden because maybe it's just an antiquated word and (47:29):
undefined

Track 2: i'm not in love with it because maiden there's a (47:33):
undefined

Track 2: degree of it i know i always twist it for baba yaga stories in (47:37):
undefined

Track 2: this conversation and call it i actually have a chapter in (47:39):
undefined

Track 2: the in becoming baba yaga that's titled feminist mother crown because there's (47:43):
undefined

Track 2: something to be said for youth and bravery and perhaps a degree of diabetes (47:49):
undefined

Track 2: about certain aspects of the world but how that (47:57):
undefined

Track 2: lends itself to such an unstoppable nature. (48:01):
undefined

Track 2: And in the Baba Yaga stories, the protagonists are almost, well, (48:04):
undefined

Track 2: if we're looking at female protagonists, which her stories have both, (48:10):
undefined

Track 2: boys are almost always a prince named Ivan, girls are frequently named Vasilisa. (48:14):
undefined

Track 2: But when you have the (48:19):
undefined

Track 2: protagonists who are female who are some reason going to (48:21):
undefined

Track 2: see Baba Yaga or be trapped by (48:24):
undefined

Track 2: Baba Yaga something like that it's interesting because depending on their age (48:27):
undefined

Track 2: is a very clear guideline of what happens in the story if they are incredibly (48:32):
undefined

Track 2: incredibly young there is a story where two siblings are off in the woods it's (48:37):
undefined

Track 2: very much a Hansel and Gretel story (48:45):
undefined

Track 2: of Olga and I'm not going to remember his name. (48:46):
undefined

Track 2: Anyway, there's a very Hansel and Kretel-ish type story that's very much a morality (48:51):
undefined

Track 2: tale. Be good little children or Baba Yaga will get you. (48:55):
undefined

Track 2: But as you get older and older, you have these stories of women and young women. (48:58):
undefined

Track 2: Stepping up and facing horrors, which will be in adulthood, (49:05):
undefined

Track 2: this is what you're going to have to face to survive (49:11):
undefined

Track 2: and yes sometimes in classic historical fashion it's (49:15):
undefined

Track 2: to survive to be a good wife and find a happy (49:18):
undefined

Track 2: marriage and like there are pieces of that or that are just intricate just (49:21):
undefined

Track 2: built into the stories just because this is historically what we're (49:24):
undefined

Track 2: talking about in the world that so much of this was living in (49:27):
undefined

Track 2: that you have to be able to clean a good clean your (49:30):
undefined

Track 2: house and cook a good meal and then all of your dreams will come true (49:33):
undefined

Track 2: there's aspects of that in some of of the stories but there's (49:36):
undefined

Track 2: also a matter of endurance and protecting your own (49:39):
undefined

Track 2: and being able to stand up for yourself and that's (49:42):
undefined

Track 2: not your typical morality tale narrative (49:47):
undefined

Track 2: there's you've got to stick up for yourself and be brave and clever because (49:51):
undefined

Track 2: if you aren't clever if you aren't smart about this really terrible situation (49:54):
undefined

Track 2: you're in you're gonna die but if you are smart about it and if you're thoughtful (49:57):
undefined

Track 2: and at the same time you kind of need to be respectful to that You need to give (50:03):
undefined

Track 2: respect to that horrible, horrible thing you're facing. (50:07):
undefined

Track 2: And of course, the horrible thing in this case is Baba Yaga. (50:09):
undefined

Track 2: You've got to be polite, sir, because you got to remain respectful, (50:13):
undefined

Track 2: but through your respect, be brave and clever, and you're going to survive the situation. (50:16):
undefined

Track 2: And I think that's the narrative that comes up over and over again with the (50:21):
undefined

Track 2: Baba Yaga tales for women specifically. (50:25):
undefined

Track 1: Okay. (50:28):
undefined

Track 1: Interesting. Yeah. I mean, there's something that, you know, (50:30):
undefined

Track 1: strikes me about women's communication that's different from men a bit, (50:32):
undefined

Track 1: which is how do I how do I put it kind of like a constant diffuse awareness (50:37):
undefined

Track 1: of and sharing of danger and danger signals, (50:42):
undefined

Track 1: which is what I think of when you're when you're talking about Baba Yaga or (50:45):
undefined

Track 1: other stories in this way. (50:50):
undefined

Track 2: Exactly i think it wasn't recently (50:51):
undefined

Track 2: i think it was closer to 2014 when (50:54):
undefined

Track 2: crimea was first invaded there were it was on social media it was like all of (50:59):
undefined

Track 2: these things there was a music video of these ukrainian grandmothers and i think (51:04):
undefined

Track 2: it was called the baba army because baba translate is grandmother it doesn't (51:08):
undefined

Track 2: translate to which it translates to grandmother and just like the word granny (51:12):
undefined

Track 2: can go in different directions. (51:16):
undefined

Track 2: You could say baba, like loving grandmother, but you could also say baba, (51:17):
undefined

Track 2: like old granny in a negative conversation. (51:21):
undefined

Track 2: Granny can be loving and granny can be negative. So sometimes people think baba (51:24):
undefined

Track 2: means like terrible old crone. (51:28):
undefined

Track 2: No, it just means grandmother and you can twist that however you want it. (51:30):
undefined

Track 2: But anyway, around 2014, around the time when Crimea was invaded, (51:32):
undefined

Track 2: there was this video that was going everywhere on social media of these women, (51:37):
undefined

Track 2: these ukrainian grandmothers who were (51:42):
undefined

Track 2: all like cleaning or like (51:45):
undefined

Track 2: feeding the chickens or doing these like classic country (51:47):
undefined

Track 2: rural life tasks that an old woman would have and then all of a sudden they (51:51):
undefined

Track 2: look up and there's something on the horizon it's very vague in the video and (51:56):
undefined

Track 2: all of a sudden these women like their eyes narrow they put on their soldiers (52:00):
undefined

Track 2: uniforms and then they like put a a gun rifle or something on their back. (52:05):
undefined

Track 2: And then they're just singing at the top of their lungs in Ukrainian about how (52:09):
undefined

Track 2: the grandmothers are going to protect this country. (52:13):
undefined

Track 2: And boys, don't you worry, we've gotcha. (52:15):
undefined

Track 2: And that's just such a spirit of Ukrainian women of everything I have ever known (52:18):
undefined

Track 2: is there are horrors, but you know what? (52:24):
undefined

Track 2: We can get through it. We stick together. We find our ways. (52:27):
undefined

Track 2: You can't, you can't doubt a Ukrainian woman and you can't doubt Baba Yaga. (52:30):
undefined

Track 1: Well, it seems, yeah, it seems to me that that spirit very much has to come (52:33):
undefined

Track 1: from a sense of identity and a sense of identity has to come from a, (52:39):
undefined

Track 1: well, certainly can come from folklore, but comes from having a shared identity. (52:43):
undefined

Track 1: And that's something that I don't know if Americans really have anymore. (52:47):
undefined

Track 1: Yeah. And it's just kind of like, I don't know. (52:51):
undefined

Track 2: Yeah, it's funny because my mom arrived in the States when she was six years old. (52:54):
undefined

Track 2: So she grew up largely in the States. (53:01):
undefined

Track 2: And of course, any immigrant experience would be a familiar version of the tale (53:04):
undefined

Track 2: of trying to figure out how to assimilate and understand new cultures and everything (53:10):
undefined

Track 2: that goes, language barriers, everything that goes into that. (53:14):
undefined

Track 2: But by the time I came into the world... (53:16):
undefined

Track 2: I remember, and I always translate this, this is my mom's Ukrainian female strength (53:19):
undefined

Track 2: twisted in an American mom way. (53:26):
undefined

Track 2: I was probably, I don't know, like three, four. (53:29):
undefined

Track 2: This is like one of my first memories that my mom had a record player and she (53:32):
undefined

Track 2: had the Helen Reddy album, I Am Woman, Hear Me Roar. (53:37):
undefined

Track 2: And I don't know where the rest of my family was in this situation. (53:41):
undefined

Track 2: I mean, there are other people in my house, but I don't know who is around in this moment. (53:44):
undefined

Track 2: But I just remember my mom putting on this record and blasting at the top of (53:49):
undefined

Track 2: the lungs and telling me to go up to the top of the stairway and to sing at the top of my lungs. (53:53):
undefined

Track 2: And I'm like three or four or something. I am woman, hear me roar. (53:57):
undefined

Track 2: And I probably could sing the whole thing when I was four years old. (54:00):
undefined

Track 2: And she was telling me, she's like, stomp and sing. (54:04):
undefined

Track 2: Like, okay. So of course, what four-year-old doesn't want to stomp and sing? (54:07):
undefined

Track 2: So you go up to the top of the stairs, sing. (54:10):
undefined

Track 2: She has the the radio or the record player blasting i am (54:12):
undefined

Track 2: singing this at the top of my lungs and i remember her clapping really (54:15):
undefined

Track 2: hard and things saying okay that was awesome or she (54:18):
undefined

Track 2: didn't say awesome but she was like that was wonderful again she's (54:21):
undefined

Track 2: go back to the top of the stairs and do it louder and i remember she made me (54:24):
undefined

Track 2: do it multiple times i am woman hear me roar this whole big thing there's a (54:28):
undefined

Track 2: line in there that i think is like something my brother won't understand which (54:31):
undefined

Track 2: in my own like young child brain was like my actual brother, (54:35):
undefined

Track 2: not like brotherhood, not humanity. (54:40):
undefined

Track 2: But I just remember that moment. And I always reflect back on that moment of (54:42):
undefined

Track 2: my mom who was not born American, but became American over time and has a very (54:46):
undefined

Track 2: strong Ukrainian and American identity now. (54:51):
undefined

Track 2: Gosh, my mom's amazing. She has been teaching Ukrainians who have come over (54:54):
undefined

Track 2: in the past couple of years, English to figure out how they can get by and states. (54:59):
undefined

Track 1: I mean, she's still. (55:03):
undefined

Track 2: Doing great work but that whole idea of strong women being a part of who ukrainian (55:04):
undefined

Track 2: women are i just always makes me laugh that she took that and translated into (55:11):
undefined

Track 2: american culture and that was a part of my childhood too. (55:14):
undefined

Track 1: That's such a beautiful story and such an amazing parenting story also and you (55:16):
undefined

Track 1: know it's it's as you're saying that i can't help but think of and this is a (55:21):
undefined

Track 1: conversation that's been coming up on the podcast more and more but just the general sense (55:27):
undefined

Track 1: of women being under attack and trying to be silenced, particularly in America, (55:33):
undefined

Track 1: from both sides of the political spectrum, also throughout the world from rising (55:37):
undefined

Track 1: theocracy in the Middle East, for instance, (55:41):
undefined

Track 1: at a very, very extreme level with Islamism. (55:44):
undefined

Track 1: And just how much, it's almost like it's not just that women's rights are being (55:49):
undefined

Track 1: rolled back, it's that they're being gaslit into silence. (55:54):
undefined

Track 1: Right. And that is, in a way, the opposite of the story you just told. (55:59):
undefined

Track 1: And that's something that is very, very concerning. (56:04):
undefined

Track 1: And I'm wondering if not just young women, but people are getting that message. (56:07):
undefined

Track 2: Absolutely. Absolutely. And it's one of those things when I was working on my (56:13):
undefined

Track 2: novel, The Baba Yaga Mask. (56:16):
undefined

Track 2: That was actually a piece that I really wanted to be in there is because sometimes (56:19):
undefined

Track 2: when people think about this idea of a strong woman, that means one thing to a lot of people. (56:22):
undefined

Track 2: It means she's very bold and she's very brash and all of this stuff. (56:27):
undefined

Track 2: And you know what? That's one way to be a strong woman. But the idea of what (56:31):
undefined

Track 2: a strong woman is means 100 different things. (56:35):
undefined

Track 2: You can be strong and silent. (56:39):
undefined

Track 2: You can be strong as a mother. You can be strong as someone who has no children. (56:42):
undefined

Track 2: You can be strong when you are 15 years old. (56:48):
undefined

Track 2: You can be strong when you are a great, great grandparent and you are still there kicking. (56:51):
undefined

Track 2: There are so many different personality types and aspects of strength that are (56:57):
undefined

Track 2: not explored with women. (57:02):
undefined

Track 2: It's pretty much like you can talk about beauty or you can talk about intelligence (57:03):
undefined

Track 2: or you can talk about strength. (57:07):
undefined

Track 2: And these are all very singularly defined pieces when it comes to women. (57:09):
undefined

Track 2: And the Baba Yaga mask as I said jumps back and forth as a novel between 1941 (57:13):
undefined

Track 2: western Ukraine and present-day eastern Europe and I say present-day directly before. (57:19):
undefined

Track 2: 2022 so present day before the Russian invasion it (57:27):
undefined

Track 2: was written before that happened published right as it happened but (57:30):
undefined

Track 2: it actually has the voices of three different women who (57:34):
undefined

Track 2: were following in that story it's the grandmother in the (57:38):
undefined

Track 2: present day but also that same grandmother when she was a teenager (57:41):
undefined

Track 2: and so you see this one character as she (57:44):
undefined

Track 2: was 15 years old and as she is 90 years old but (57:47):
undefined

Track 2: then also her granddaughters because as i said the story of that is this woman (57:50):
undefined

Track 2: who said before she dies she wants to see ukrainian soil again she flies to (57:54):
undefined

Track 2: eastern europe steps off a plane and completely disappears and it's the story (57:57):
undefined

Track 2: of the two grandmothers going on a wild goose chase across eastern europe trying (58:01):
undefined

Track 2: to uncover what happened to their grandmother is she sick She's 90 years old. (58:04):
undefined

Track 2: Is she sick? Did something happen? (58:07):
undefined

Track 2: Or is she up to something? Because knowing their grandmother and the small snippets (58:09):
undefined

Track 2: of her World War II history and life story that they know, she's always up to something. (58:13):
undefined

Track 2: And so through this wild goose chase across multiple countries in Europe, (58:17):
undefined

Track 2: they discover their own Ukrainian family history through that wild goose chase. (58:21):
undefined

Track 2: But these three women are incredibly different. The grandmother, (58:27):
undefined

Track 2: who was the one who was a teenager during World War II Ukraine, (58:31):
undefined

Track 2: like she is bold and she is brash and she is a rebel. (58:33):
undefined

Track 2: And one of the granddaughters is a young mom and she is trying to cross every (58:36):
undefined

Track 2: T and dot every I and do everything perfectly by the book. (58:42):
undefined

Track 2: According to Pinterest, she is trying to do everything perfectly. (58:45):
undefined

Track 2: And that is a very real expectation on young moms these days that you have to (58:50):
undefined

Track 2: be perfect and give your kids the 500 things, because everybody's giving their kids the 500 things. (58:54):
undefined

Track 1: It's often, you know, it's often now you have to be a perfect mom and have a (58:59):
undefined

Track 1: career or be a boss, you know, at the same time, which would drive anyone crazy. (59:04):
undefined

Track 1: It's just not possible, you know, so. (59:09):
undefined

Track 2: So you have the grandmother, you have the young mother, and then you have the two sisters. (59:11):
undefined

Track 2: The young mother has a sister who is single and childish and in some ways a (59:15):
undefined

Track 2: free spirit, but she has kind of this gut intuition where she just notices things (59:20):
undefined

Track 2: about the world that her sister and her polar opposites in so many ways. (59:24):
undefined

Track 2: And sometimes they clash, but they both are amazingly brilliant and strong and (59:29):
undefined

Track 2: completely diverse ways. (59:34):
undefined

Track 2: And I wanted to put that on the page because women need to see it, (59:35):
undefined

Track 2: men need to see it, the world needs to see it. (59:38):
undefined

Track 1: Do you feel that this is something that is less apparent or that is vanishing from the world? (59:40):
undefined

Track 2: In what respect? (59:47):
undefined

Track 1: Well, you're saying that people need to see it. And it seems to me that people (59:49):
undefined

Track 1: are feeling more disempowered than ever on a lot of levels. (59:54):
undefined

Track 1: And one of the reasons is I don't think they have a clear sense of identity. (59:58):
undefined

Track 1: They don't have a connection with anything larger than themselves. Maybe. I don't know. (01:00:01):
undefined

Track 2: But that seems to be something. (01:00:07):
undefined

Track 1: That you know if folklore if anything should put us in touch with the deepest truths of who we are. (01:00:09):
undefined

Track 2: Absolutely and i think it kind (01:00:15):
undefined

Track 2: of goes back to what we were talking about earlier about right now (01:00:18):
undefined

Track 2: we're living in a moment in world history where people are really good at finding (01:00:21):
undefined

Track 2: the hook or the lead that will be very interested to this one specific tiny (01:00:25):
undefined

Track 2: tiny group and then that one tiny tiny group just becomes a bubble with this (01:00:29):
undefined

Track 2: one narrative and i I think in the history of what is a woman in American society (01:00:33):
undefined

Track 2: today, what is a woman in the world today, (01:00:38):
undefined

Track 2: we have a lot of bubbles and we have a lot of people who are just seeing their (01:00:40):
undefined

Track 2: singular definition and there are many ways that women can be strong. (01:00:44):
undefined

Track 2: And I think world history, the history of goddesses, the history of folklore (01:00:50):
undefined

Track 2: can show us the path of understanding others' transformations and our own. (01:00:54):
undefined

Track 1: Interesting. Yeah. For somebody who wants to tap into that, do you think it's (01:01:01):
undefined

Track 1: important for somebody to look into the folklore of their own ancestry? (01:01:05):
undefined

Track 1: And or are you kind of of the Jungian idea that these are transcendent ideas (01:01:10):
undefined

Track 1: that are there no matter what culture you're in? (01:01:16):
undefined

Track 2: Let me answer both. I think there's an amazing power in tapping deep into whatever (01:01:19):
undefined

Track 2: roots of your own you can find. (01:01:26):
undefined

Track 2: I mean, it's hard sometimes to trace ancestry and to figure out where your people (01:01:28):
undefined

Track 2: came from and whatever you can figure out, that's not easy for all people. And I get that. (01:01:33):
undefined

Track 2: If you can figure out something that is loosely tied to who may be within your (01:01:38):
undefined

Track 2: blood, look, research, look for those stories because there's depth that is (01:01:45):
undefined

Track 2: empowering if you dare to discover it. (01:01:50):
undefined

Track 2: That's where my third book came from, actually, because I was doing so much exploration on, (01:01:53):
undefined

Track 2: Ukrainian history? And where do the classic family stories merge with actual world history? (01:01:59):
undefined

Track 2: Because you never know sometimes the stories told around the table at Thanksgiving, (01:02:04):
undefined

Track 2: how much of a tall tale is that story versus how much actually happened in this (01:02:08):
undefined

Track 2: moment when my grandfather was 22 years old? (01:02:14):
undefined

Track 2: Like what was actually happening in the world in that moment when this story (01:02:17):
undefined

Track 2: happens? Like, does this actually mesh? (01:02:19):
undefined

Track 2: Okay. So it's fascinating to like go through that exploration. my (01:02:21):
undefined

Track 2: third book is called the family story workbook and (01:02:24):
undefined

Track 2: i wrote that book and it is it's legitimately a workbook full of questions for (01:02:28):
undefined

Track 2: interviewing wow that's really interesting that's really wow how it's great (01:02:33):
undefined

Track 2: and it's for um it came out during the height of covid where people were communicating (01:02:37):
undefined

Track 2: over zoom and they were having conversations with their grandparents via zoom what an incredible. (01:02:43):
undefined

Track 1: Gift to people that's that's amazing. (01:02:46):
undefined

Track 2: And i have been so honored at the stories that people have (01:02:49):
undefined

Track 2: told me about that book about taking it to holiday dinners and passing it around (01:02:53):
undefined

Track 2: the table and having everybody answer the same question because you know what (01:02:57):
undefined

Track 2: you and your siblings might have a completely different version of that story (01:03:00):
undefined

Track 2: that happened to you all in. (01:03:03):
undefined

Track 2: 1989 you know and then asking like (01:03:05):
undefined

Track 2: a different generation about that same story or asking a different generation (01:03:08):
undefined

Track 2: about a secret that they never told their parents or asking a different generation (01:03:11):
undefined

Track 2: and you just through this i mean really it is a collection of questions and (01:03:16):
undefined

Track 2: there are lines to write in that book so you can capture your family stories (01:03:20):
undefined

Track 2: and hold them for yourselves or pass it on for whatever the historical record means to you. (01:03:24):
undefined

Track 2: That book arose because I was doing this so deeply with myself and just felt (01:03:29):
undefined

Track 2: such profound personal, I don't know, rekindling of my own identity by doing that process. (01:03:33):
undefined

Track 2: But then on the other side of things, you don't have to go into all of that (01:03:40):
undefined

Track 2: stuff. I encourage you, but you don't have to. (01:03:42):
undefined

Track 2: I love world storytelling because yes, right now I am in the midst of a Slavic (01:03:45):
undefined

Track 2: exploration going into Ukrainian roots and Amazons and Baba Yaga folktales and all of this. (01:03:51):
undefined

Track 2: And that's very much who I am. But at the same time, my next project is on the (01:03:58):
undefined

Track 2: depths of Lewis Carroll and Alice in Wonderland. (01:04:03):
undefined

Track 2: And I feel like there is so much discussion there. (01:04:06):
undefined

Track 2: There's so much to be said about, I don't know, name a place in the world and (01:04:10):
undefined

Track 2: then go explore their stories. (01:04:17):
undefined

Track 2: The more diversely you read and listen, the more rounded and better of a person (01:04:19):
undefined

Track 2: you will be. I have absolute faith in that. Yeah. (01:04:25):
undefined

Track 1: And we definitely live in a time where, you know, there's YouTube and there's (01:04:28):
undefined

Track 1: all these internet resources where you can visit parts of the world without visiting them. (01:04:32):
undefined

Track 1: And it's not not perfectly, obviously, but in a sense, you know, (01:04:35):
undefined

Track 1: you can, we have the ability with the internet to explore whatever it is that (01:04:39):
undefined

Track 1: interests us at any given moment, which is an amazing thing. (01:04:43):
undefined

Track 1: And I think probably is bringing the world closer together. (01:04:47):
undefined

Track 2: Absolutely. (01:04:51):
undefined

Track 1: I'm curious, does the Baba Yaga figure, because I've always heard this as being (01:04:52):
undefined

Track 1: a Russian folklore figure, does this go to Russia also or is it Ukraine also (01:04:58):
undefined

Track 1: only and is it different between them? (01:05:03):
undefined

Track 2: So I love this question because I think especially when you have published stories (01:05:06):
undefined

Track 2: from the past couple hundred years, she's always in collections of Russian, (01:05:12):
undefined

Track 2: Yeah, yeah. (01:05:35):
undefined

Track 2: The story that you heard were told at bedtime is probably a little bit different (01:05:35):
undefined

Track 2: from something your neighbor was told at bedtime. (01:05:39):
undefined

Track 2: I mean, just the nature of distance changes things just a little bit. (01:05:41):
undefined

Track 2: She doesn't have ownership in any one of these countries, but I will loudly, (01:05:46):
undefined

Track 2: loudly protest the second anyone starts calling her a Russian folktale. (01:05:51):
undefined

Track 1: So yeah, please clear that up. but please clear that up. (01:05:55):
undefined

Track 2: Yeah, and if you think about it also, people often say the Russian folktale (01:05:59):
undefined

Track 2: record because think about the history of publishing. (01:06:03):
undefined

Track 2: In the history of publishing, people went to different countries to get translations (01:06:06):
undefined

Track 2: of different world stories, and they went to big cities where people had connections. (01:06:10):
undefined

Track 2: So you had a connection between London publishing houses and Moscow publishing (01:06:15):
undefined

Track 2: houses and all of this stuff, and there was not necessarily the empire of publishing (01:06:20):
undefined

Track 2: in Kiev of, that there may have been in other locations. (01:06:25):
undefined

Track 2: So when it came to just English translations of these folklores, (01:06:29):
undefined

Track 2: it was easiest to get from Russia. (01:06:33):
undefined

Track 2: The first exposure might've been Russia. So hence they became Russian folktales, (01:06:35):
undefined

Track 2: but Russia is just one location. (01:06:38):
undefined

Track 1: Okay. That's good. That's really good to clear up then. (01:06:41):
undefined

Track 1: Are there differences in the story and the figure of Baba Yaga, (01:06:45):
undefined

Track 1: depending on parts of that region you get the story in? (01:06:48):
undefined

Track 2: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, there are 100 different derivations of it. (01:06:52):
undefined

Track 2: Sometimes her name is sometimes a little bit different from Baba Yaga to Baba (01:06:55):
undefined

Track 2: Yaga, adding in various different letters. (01:07:00):
undefined

Track 2: In the tradition I grew up with, she is called Baba Yaga. (01:07:03):
undefined

Track 2: I once had someone tell me I was pronouncing her name wrong. (01:07:06):
undefined

Track 2: And it was just very funny because my family is Ukrainian. (01:07:08):
undefined

Track 2: English was not their first language and these were their stories. (01:07:12):
undefined

Track 2: So I don't think they're wrong. (01:07:16):
undefined

Track 2: Again, Russia versus Ukraine, just different languages call her different things. (01:07:17):
undefined

Track 2: Of the derivations, I'm just trying to think the easiest thing to do. (01:07:22):
undefined

Track 2: Okay. So think about, I said that she has a hut that stands on chicken legs, (01:07:25):
undefined

Track 2: which is just a great visual, really. (01:07:30):
undefined

Track 2: I mean, every illustrator probably loved illustrating the hut in the middle (01:07:32):
undefined

Track 2: of the woods on chicken legs. That's just great. Sometimes the hut has one leg. (01:07:36):
undefined

Track 2: Sometimes the hut has two. I've seen versions where, going back to your goat (01:07:40):
undefined

Track 2: devil story, there's versions of the hut where it's actually on four goat legs, (01:07:44):
undefined

Track 2: like prancing around the woods. (01:07:50):
undefined

Track 1: Even scarier. (01:07:52):
undefined

Track 2: Yes. Sometimes her hut's just in the middle of the woods. Often she has a gate (01:07:53):
undefined

Track 2: made of bones that surrounds her hut, and there's a lock made out of a human skull to open the gates. (01:07:58):
undefined

Track 2: But again, this exists in some, this doesn't exist in some. And then this is (01:08:06):
undefined

Track 2: one of those life and death questions that is this the remnants of a goddess (01:08:10):
undefined

Track 2: hiding in the tales where some of the goddesses that it is supposed that she (01:08:14):
undefined

Track 2: was built out of were the goddesses of life and death. (01:08:18):
undefined

Track 2: These people who were a partner as you entered the world when you're born and (01:08:22):
undefined

Track 2: the partner as you left the mortal world as we know it when you died. (01:08:26):
undefined

Track 2: So, yes, you could say the bones and the fence around her house. (01:08:30):
undefined

Track 2: Are this terrifying American Halloween horror show? (01:08:33):
undefined

Track 2: Or you could say, you know what, these are bones of the dead who are revered, (01:08:38):
undefined

Track 2: and she's holding on to their memories. (01:08:44):
undefined

Track 2: So again, you could look at where these little symbols come from, (01:08:46):
undefined

Track 2: and then you can trace back little breadcrumbs, because we're talking about (01:08:51):
undefined

Track 2: folktales, and find things that line up that say, wait, that's not as simple as I thought it was. (01:08:54):
undefined

Track 1: Interesting. Yeah, I imagine no pun intended by saying breadcrumbs because of (01:09:00):
undefined

Track 1: folktales. That's pretty funny. Right. (01:09:06):
undefined

Track 2: Can't help myself sometimes. (01:09:08):
undefined

Track 1: Have you had any interesting experiences along the way where, (01:09:18):
undefined

Track 1: you know, kind of revelations or life experiences that shaped those projects or changing views? (01:09:21):
undefined

Track 2: I have learned so much more about her than I originally knew. (01:09:29):
undefined

Track 2: Like I knew of her as a figure that people believed in as real and a figure (01:09:31):
undefined

Track 2: that some believed in just as a character. (01:09:37):
undefined

Track 2: And I knew about that dichotomy. and I knew about the dichotomy (01:09:38):
undefined

Track 2: of faith where as a (01:09:41):
undefined

Track 2: child my grandparents were deeply religious very much (01:09:44):
undefined

Track 2: churchgoers but at the same time I was (01:09:48):
undefined

Track 2: told never to be disrespectful to this one lady who (01:09:51):
undefined

Track 2: lived down the street because she was a witch and would give you the evil eye (01:09:54):
undefined

Track 2: and all of this stuff so I knew of (01:09:56):
undefined

Track 2: this dichotomy of belief and I (01:09:59):
undefined

Track 2: knew of Baba Yaga falling somewhere in the (01:10:03):
undefined

Track 2: midst of this but in a different place but she was wrapped (01:10:06):
undefined

Track 2: in stories and it was something that's always intrigued me the (01:10:08):
undefined

Track 2: depth of the history i think was profound to (01:10:12):
undefined

Track 2: stumble down and to figure out kind of where this one known (01:10:15):
undefined

Track 2: goddess links actually with this one goddess and (01:10:19):
undefined

Track 2: which links with this one goddess and you can connect them (01:10:22):
undefined

Track 2: again it's like the game of telephone that they kind of borrow traits (01:10:25):
undefined

Track 2: from the next one in line and they borrow traits down (01:10:28):
undefined

Track 2: the historical record And you can kind of see this pattern of what they symbolize (01:10:31):
undefined

Track 2: and what they represent and character traits and physical traits that kind of (01:10:36):
undefined

Track 2: carry on through the generations through different belief systems until you (01:10:40):
undefined

Track 2: get to not until who knows what will come next, but until you have Baba Yaga in her. (01:10:45):
undefined

Track 2: Present versions that's just this amalgamation of (01:10:49):
undefined

Track 2: all of these past figures that was fascinating to me it was also (01:10:52):
undefined

Track 2: fascinating to me going into all of (01:10:55):
undefined

Track 2: these stories and some of them baba yaga has a flock of (01:10:58):
undefined

Track 2: of black geese that can do her bidding and others that there's this like immortal (01:11:01):
undefined

Track 2: battle between baba yaga and a hedgehog and a hedgehog and baba yaga just like (01:11:06):
undefined

Track 2: neither of them will give any ground what is the hedgehog very funny because (01:11:11):
undefined

Track 2: i'm terrified of geese i don't know i had smell oh yeah geese are scary geese. (01:11:14):
undefined

Track 1: Are the teeth they're like little. (01:11:18):
undefined

Track 2: Dinosaurs they're terrifying they're terrifying i got (01:11:20):
undefined

Track 2: chased by a goose once when i was a kid yeah oh gosh (01:11:23):
undefined

Track 2: yeah they're scary they are scary super scary (01:11:26):
undefined

Track 2: and it's just one of those things finding i'm like oh my gosh maybe these these (01:11:29):
undefined

Track 2: folktales are simmering in my blood and that's why i've always been terrified (01:11:33):
undefined

Track 2: of geese because they are owned by baba yaga and clearly that's why i've always (01:11:35):
undefined

Track 2: been terrified of them and i've always had an affinity for hedgehogs because (01:11:39):
undefined

Track 2: i just think they're adorable but then And there are all these hedgehogs standing (01:11:42):
undefined

Track 2: up to battle Baba Yaga stories. (01:11:45):
undefined

Track 2: I'm like, well, clearly I have a love of hedgehogs because they're a major character (01:11:47):
undefined

Track 2: in a number of Baba Yaga stories where they're just fearless and brave. And how cool is that? (01:11:50):
undefined

Track 1: Very cool. I know there is a lot of there's been a lot of work on kind of reconstructing (01:11:56):
undefined

Track 1: Slavic paganism, particularly from what I understand, it's a big deal in Ukraine. Crane. (01:12:02):
undefined

Track 1: Have you heard anything about people actually working with Baba Yaga as a goddess (01:12:07):
undefined

Track 1: in kind of like a neo-pagan context and what's going on with that? (01:12:11):
undefined

Track 2: Absolutely. And I think it goes back to that earlier concept we were talking (01:12:15):
undefined

Track 2: about is she is such a mix of horror and hope. (01:12:19):
undefined

Track 2: She's such a mix of magic and the mundane that she's not complicated. (01:12:23):
undefined

Track 2: She's very simple. It It goes back to the concept of the mortar that she exists (01:12:30):
undefined

Track 2: in through so much is this place of transformation. (01:12:36):
undefined

Track 2: And if you're willing to confront... (01:12:40):
undefined

Track 2: The horrors of the world the scary pieces of yourself your (01:12:43):
undefined

Track 2: own shadow if you will and acknowledge (01:12:46):
undefined

Track 2: it respectfully as you would acknowledge baba (01:12:49):
undefined

Track 2: yaga respectfully thoughtfully and (01:12:53):
undefined

Track 2: how you can actually use baba yaga and an understanding and belief and study (01:12:57):
undefined

Track 2: of her to empower your own possibilities yes definitely so um she's she's very (01:13:02):
undefined

Track 2: powerful in those ways I don't practice in those ways, but I know many people who do. (01:13:09):
undefined

Track 1: What type of people do you meet who are approaching the story in that way, shall we say? (01:13:14):
undefined

Track 2: I mean, what type of people? (01:13:20):
undefined

Track 1: Is that people here or Ukraine? (01:13:22):
undefined

Track 2: Everywhere, honestly. Ukrainians, yes. A lot of Americans. (01:13:25):
undefined

Track 2: I think I've... Canadians. I've met people from around the world who are... (01:13:29):
undefined

Track 2: Are there some people in the world today who are looking to (01:13:34):
undefined

Track 2: understand the connectivity of humanity with (01:13:37):
undefined

Track 2: something bigger yeah and i think a lot (01:13:41):
undefined

Track 2: of people are lost on that journey and exploring where in history have people (01:13:44):
undefined

Track 2: found a deeper connection than they feel right now and i think baba yaga slides (01:13:49):
undefined

Track 2: into that slot beautifully and can be understood as a character And I know many (01:13:53):
undefined

Track 2: people do see her as a goddess to meditate on, to speak to. (01:13:57):
undefined

Track 2: And again, it's about personal transformation and confronting the horrors of (01:14:04):
undefined

Track 2: the world and oneself for the betterment of all. (01:14:09):
undefined

Track 1: Well, this is just such a profound gift. It's such a profound concept. (01:14:14):
undefined

Track 1: Maybe that's a good place to end on. But for me, you know, a lot has come out of this conversation. (01:14:17):
undefined

Track 1: But, you know, just this image of a goddess, a dark goddess that represents inevitable horror as, (01:14:22):
undefined

Track 1: I suppose, a maturing force and as a call to dealing with reality as it is and (01:14:29):
undefined

Track 1: not how we would wish it to be, you know, at least what I'm taking from what (01:14:35):
undefined

Track 1: you're saying. saying, please add to that. (01:14:39):
undefined

Track 1: But what a profound concept and what a timely image for 2024 and beyond. (01:14:41):
undefined

Track 2: It's true. It is very true. I have been so honored to spend so much time on (01:14:48):
undefined

Track 2: this project to connect with early readers on this project. (01:14:54):
undefined

Track 2: I mean, to work with, I spend a lot of time with book clubs and small groups. (01:14:58):
undefined

Track 2: And I mean, whether library groups or just personal community group, (01:15:02):
undefined

Track 2: friend groups whatever it is call me um but (01:15:05):
undefined

Track 2: working with people and just seeing when my novel came out that had so much (01:15:10):
undefined

Track 2: of the baba yaga folklore intertwined within it how many people didn't know (01:15:15):
undefined

Track 2: how many people had no idea about slavic literature not slavic literature like (01:15:19):
undefined

Track 2: tolstoy but slavic folk tales right right tolstoy is another conversation i (01:15:24):
undefined

Track 2: would love to have I love that. (01:15:28):
undefined

Track 1: Another person forcing people to confront the horrors of reality, like in Madame Overy. (01:15:29):
undefined

Track 1: Where can people find out more about you, your work? I guess it sounds like (01:15:36):
undefined

Track 1: you do workshops. And where can they get your books? (01:15:41):
undefined

Track 2: Right. So everything about me can be found on my website. (01:15:44):
undefined

Track 2: It's chrisspizak.com. It's Chris with a K, K-R-I-S, Spizak, S-P-I-S-A-K.com. (01:15:49):
undefined

Track 2: If you Google the Baba Yaga mask, (01:15:57):
undefined

Track 2: you will find me. If you Google Becoming Baba Yaga, you will find me. (01:15:59):
undefined

Track 2: I'm on Instagram all over the place. I love exploring little-known world stories. (01:16:04):
undefined

Track 2: I love exploring little-known world origin stories. This is my favorite thing to discuss. (01:16:10):
undefined

Track 2: So that's kind of, I'm all over the place on Instagram in that realm. (01:16:15):
undefined

Track 2: Obviously, Baba Yaga is a part of those conversations. I have newsletters. (01:16:19):
undefined

Track 2: My books are available wherever books are sold. Again, look up my name. (01:16:23):
undefined

Track 2: All five of my books are for sale everywhere. (01:16:26):
undefined

Track 2: Becoming Baba Yaga and the Baba Yaga mask, both the fiction and the nonfiction, (01:16:30):
undefined

Track 2: they're standalone completely. they don't necessarily go together, (01:16:34):
undefined

Track 2: but if you want a further depth, they definitely play off of each other. (01:16:37):
undefined

Track 2: They're both available, both in paperback and audio book. (01:16:40):
undefined

Track 1: Awesome. Well, this is a great conversation. Thank you very, (01:16:43):
undefined

Track 1: very much for being on the show. I really appreciate it. (01:16:46):
undefined

Track 2: Absolutely. Thank you so much for having me. (01:16:50):
undefined

Track 1: All right. Take care. (01:16:51):
undefined

All Episodes

Episode Transcript

Popular Podcasts

On Purpose with Jay Shetty

Dateline NBC

24/7 News: The Latest

.css-15opob5{left:0;position:absolute;top:0.8rem;} All Episodes

.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}Ep. 212: Becoming Baba Yaga With Kris Spisak

Episode Transcript

Popular Podcasts

.css-r6mb8g{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:1;overflow:hidden;}On Purpose with Jay Shetty

Dateline NBC

24/7 News: The Latest

All Episodes

Ep. 212: Becoming Baba Yaga With Kris Spisak

On Purpose with Jay Shetty