Ep. 215: The Sorcery of Solomon With Sara Mastros

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker0: How about now? Yes, now I can hear you. Okay, great. Sorry about the confusion. (00:00):
undefined

Speaker0: No problem. All right, let's just get started then. (00:06):
undefined

Speaker0: So welcome to the show. Thank you very much for being on. You might want to (00:10):
undefined

Speaker0: move your camera down because your head is cutting off like very bottom. (00:13):
undefined

Speaker0: A little bit more, a little bit more. (00:17):
undefined

Speaker0: Okay, perfect. Okay, thank you. Sure. All right. (00:20):
undefined

Speaker0: Welcome to the show. Thank you very much for being on it. why don't you just (00:23):
undefined

Speaker0: tell the audience a little bit about who you are and your book about Solomonic (00:26):
undefined

Speaker0: magic, which I'm sure will be of interest to many of the people listening. Sure. (00:31):
undefined

Speaker1: Hi, everybody. I'm Sarah Mastros. I'm a professional witch and mostly a witch educator. (00:35):
undefined

Speaker1: Today, I am here to talk about my relatively new book, The Sorcery of Solomon, (00:41):
undefined

Speaker1: which is a guide to the 44 planetary pentacles of the magician king. (00:46):
undefined

Speaker1: I have lots of other books and other things to talk about, and I'm happy to (00:50):
undefined

Speaker1: talk about all of those as well. (00:54):
undefined

Speaker0: So let's focus on this book. How did you become interested in Solomonic magic? (00:55):
undefined

Speaker0: And is it something that you've been pursuing for a long time? (01:01):
undefined

Speaker1: Yeah. So, you know, like a lot of people, you know, I grew up, (01:04):
undefined

Speaker1: I was always interested in magic. Right. (01:09):
undefined

Speaker1: And so when people ask me questions about like, how did you get into magic? (01:12):
undefined

Speaker1: I struggle to answer that question because I sort of feel like, (01:15):
undefined

Speaker1: you know, all four year olds are magicians and be out of them. (01:18):
undefined

Speaker1: And that just like didn't like I just didn't grow out of it. (01:21):
undefined

Speaker1: But, you know, for a long time. So for the young people in the audience, (01:25):
undefined

Speaker1: you have to understand that this story takes place before the existence of the (01:28):
undefined

Speaker1: Internet. net. So like information is not that easy. (01:31):
undefined

Speaker0: A fabled time. Right. (01:34):
undefined

Speaker1: And a long, long ago. Right. So this story is really happening in like the mid to late 80s. (01:36):
undefined

Speaker0: Okay. (01:41):
undefined

Speaker1: Maybe I guess like the late 80s and early 90s in Amish country in Lancaster (01:42):
undefined

Speaker1: County, Pennsylvania, which is where I grew up. Right. So my access to books is not that great. (01:46):
undefined

Speaker1: So I'm sort of piecing together magic from kind of wherever I can find it. Right. (01:51):
undefined

Speaker1: From mythology and fairy tales from fiction and from like occasional books that I can find, right? (01:55):
undefined

Speaker1: Well, when I was about 15, right, I found a book in the history section of my library. (02:02):
undefined

Speaker1: So in my library, as in many libraries, both then and today, (02:09):
undefined

Speaker1: you know, Christians, if they find books about magic, will steal them and throw them out. (02:13):
undefined

Speaker1: So there aren't that many books about magic in most public libraries. (02:17):
undefined

Speaker0: I remember hearing that, you know, Crowley's books are the most stolen within (02:21):
undefined

Speaker0: the public library system of any author. (02:24):
undefined

Speaker1: Yeah and sometimes people act as though like it's magicians who steal those (02:26):
undefined

Speaker1: books but that is not what happens christians steal them and burn them i mean (02:29):
undefined

Speaker1: probably magicians steal them too like i i you know that's (02:33):
undefined

Speaker0: Good to know i didn't realize that. (02:37):
undefined

Speaker1: Uh that's what my librarian friends tell me right and certainly that was the (02:38):
undefined

Speaker1: case in my public library (02:43):
undefined

Speaker1: As a kid. So but sometimes you would find them in like not the magic section. (02:45):
undefined

Speaker1: Right. So in the history section, I found this book called Ritual Magic by E.M. (02:50):
undefined

Speaker1: Butler, which is a scholarly work about grimoire magic. (02:55):
undefined

Speaker1: It doesn't include sort of any full grimoire text, but includes excerpts from (03:01):
undefined

Speaker1: lots of different grimoires sort of together with a lot of historical context. (03:06):
undefined

Speaker1: Text and as soon as i saw this i was like oh this (03:09):
undefined

Speaker1: is good this is like better than the magic i've (03:13):
undefined

Speaker1: been reconstructing for myself out of fairy tales like (03:16):
undefined

Speaker1: i've been learning at this point exclusively from like fairy (03:19):
undefined

Speaker1: tales ghosts and trees which are great places to learn magic yes and i recommend (03:22):
undefined

Speaker1: learning magic from them but it's you know you don't get quite the same there (03:28):
undefined

Speaker1: we go better you don't get quite the same like crunchy details right and so (03:31):
undefined

Speaker1: that was really my introduction Introduction to Solomonic Magic was that book, (03:37):
undefined

Speaker1: but it didn't have any full grimoire. (03:40):
undefined

Speaker1: So I sort of built my own grimoire out of excerpts, like the excerpts that were in that book. (03:43):
undefined

Speaker1: And then, you know, when there were gaps in them, I would just sort of patch (03:49):
undefined

Speaker1: them together with what seemed correct to me. (03:53):
undefined

Speaker1: Now I was 15 and I was a very like naive 15 year old right so like when when (03:55):
undefined

Speaker1: the grimoires told me that this was like the magic of King Solomon I just believed (04:03):
undefined

Speaker1: that right but I certainly understood (04:07):
undefined

Speaker1: That like this had gone through this complicated chain of historical preservation (04:10):
undefined

Speaker1: and as someone who grew up not Christian in America I understood that Christians (04:14):
undefined

Speaker1: you know lied about what was in ancient texts okay so whenever you grow up Amish I know Amish. (04:19):
undefined

Speaker1: Well, no, first of all, also Amish is a kind of Christian. I grew up. (04:26):
undefined

Speaker0: OK, well, OK, gotcha. OK, gotcha. Gotcha. So I just said because you mentioned (04:29):
undefined

Speaker0: Amish country, it was the obvious. (04:34):
undefined

Speaker1: Yeah, no, no, no, no. Sorry. I didn't mean to, like, react so strong. (04:36):
undefined

Speaker0: OK, gotcha. Gotcha. Gotcha. OK, so, yeah, that must have been interesting growing (04:40):
undefined

Speaker0: up in Amish country also. (04:43):
undefined

Speaker1: So, yes, yes. Although, I mean, I think, you know. (04:44):
undefined

Speaker1: Amish country is not as like, it's not a cult compound with like walls around (04:50):
undefined

Speaker1: it that only Amish people live in. (04:56):
undefined

Speaker1: Right. Like it's still in the real world. (04:58):
undefined

Speaker1: Not that Amish people are not real people who live in the real world as well. (05:00):
undefined

Speaker1: But, you know, like I was like, well, King Saul, like so every time Jesus would (05:04):
undefined

Speaker1: come up in these grimoires, I was like, well, obviously King Solomon didn't (05:08):
undefined

Speaker1: write that. That's just some Christian nonsense that Christians put in. (05:11):
undefined

Speaker1: So I sort of like de-Christianized the grimoires as I went, which is pretty easy. (05:14):
undefined

Speaker1: Just like judeified them right and (05:18):
undefined

Speaker1: so i would patch in the gaps with like jewish prayers (05:21):
undefined

Speaker1: and just sort of like you know the great thing about that (05:24):
undefined

Speaker1: book like i'm actually really happy that (05:27):
undefined

Speaker1: i started with like this survey grimoires rather (05:30):
undefined

Speaker1: than one particular grimoire because it really helped me (05:33):
undefined

Speaker1: like from the very beginning i had this sort of sense of like the (05:36):
undefined

Speaker1: structure of how grimoires work and i also couldn't (05:39):
undefined

Speaker1: get locked into that oh you gotta do it exactly the (05:42):
undefined

Speaker1: way the book says trap because like clearly (05:45):
undefined

Speaker1: these books were not doing it exactly the same way there were (05:49):
undefined

Speaker1: commonalities but it was obvious to me and (05:52):
undefined

Speaker1: i say obvious to me like what i'm about to say is false right but it was obvious (05:55):
undefined

Speaker1: at the time right that there was this one source of like solomonic magic king (05:59):
undefined

Speaker1: solomon and then things had sort of diverged from there and different people (06:03):
undefined

Speaker1: were like putting their own spins on it both historically and culturally so (06:07):
undefined

Speaker1: i was just reconstructing it from these pieces, right? (06:10):
undefined

Speaker1: And that worked great for me. And in many ways, that's sort of still how I approach it. (06:14):
undefined

Speaker1: Right, I have perhaps a like more sophisticated and nuanced understanding of (06:18):
undefined

Speaker1: like the historical transmission of this magic and how, and in particular, (06:22):
undefined

Speaker1: I would say the biggest difference in my understanding of Solomonic magic today versus then (06:27):
undefined

Speaker1: Then, I was looking at, and I think this is the case for most people today, truthfully. (06:32):
undefined

Speaker1: They have this understanding that Solomonic magic is this pretty small time (06:38):
undefined

Speaker1: period of magic that exists only in Christian Western Europe. (06:43):
undefined

Speaker1: And that's simply not the case. There is actually this complex tree of what (06:48):
undefined

Speaker1: we call Solomonic magic. Let's talk about that. (06:53):
undefined

Speaker0: Let's talk about that. I'm super curious. We always think about it as it's around (06:55):
undefined

Speaker0: the time of the Grimoires or Agrippa period. (07:00):
undefined

Speaker0: Or I guess all the way up to kind of, well, yeah, Agrippa's period in particular. (07:02):
undefined

Speaker0: So talk about the branching tree. (07:06):
undefined

Speaker1: Well, you know, first of all, it depends exactly like what does and doesn't (07:09):
undefined

Speaker1: qualify as Solomonic magic is obviously like there's not tight bounds around it. (07:12):
undefined

Speaker0: Well, let's start there. I mean, how do you define Solomonic magic? (07:16):
undefined

Speaker1: So for me, okay, so I've rooted in, there's this quote I really like by a classicist (07:19):
undefined

Speaker1: named Martin West, and he's talking about orphism, which is what my previous book was about. (07:24):
undefined

Speaker1: And he says that the only, this is not, I don't know, I don't remember the exact (07:28):
undefined

Speaker1: quote word for word, but he basically says that like the only reasonable way (07:32):
undefined

Speaker1: to define Orphism is that it is the tradition of naming things after Orpheus, right? (07:35):
undefined

Speaker1: And that's how I feel about Solomonic magic. Like what makes Solomonic magic Solomonic? (07:41):
undefined

Speaker1: It's that the, well, what makes a book, a book of Solomonic magic is that the (07:45):
undefined

Speaker1: book claims that its magic comes from Solomon, the legendary magician king. (07:52):
undefined

Speaker1: And in my opinion, what makes a kind of magic Solomonic is that it does, right? (07:56):
undefined

Speaker1: That it is worked in concert with Solomon, the Magician King. (08:01):
undefined

Speaker1: So that's sort of how I define it. But I'm not, you know, so my academic background (08:05):
undefined

Speaker1: is mathematics, right? So I can get super like nerdy. (08:10):
undefined

Speaker0: Interesting. Please do. No, no, no. Please do. That's actually really, really interesting. (08:13):
undefined

Speaker1: Well, so I'm going to talk about (08:17):
undefined

Speaker1: why I'm not going to get super nerdy and precise about this definition. (08:19):
undefined

Speaker0: Oh, no. (08:23):
undefined

Speaker1: Well, okay. (08:23):
undefined

Speaker0: That's such an interesting overlap, though. I mean, magic and mathematics. (08:24):
undefined

Speaker1: Is an endlessly fascinating overlap. People say that, but it's actually quite traditional. (08:27):
undefined

Speaker0: I know it is. (08:30):
undefined

Speaker1: Historically, those things almost always went together. It's really only in (08:32):
undefined

Speaker1: the last maybe 100 years that people are like, oh, how fun. (08:36):
undefined

Speaker1: I actually find it shocking that more modern magicians do not have a better (08:40):
undefined

Speaker1: grounding in mathematics and science. (08:44):
undefined

Speaker0: It may just be the educational system. But yeah, I mean, for me, I came up. (08:47):
undefined

Speaker1: With the same educational (08:52):
undefined

Speaker0: System. Okay. All right. Fair enough. Fair enough. enough, let's not absolve (08:53):
undefined

Speaker0: people of responsibility then. But I mean, you know. (08:58):
undefined

Speaker1: There's so much to learn. Like, nobody can learn everything. I'm not trying to, (09:00):
undefined

Speaker0: Like, mass shame people. Of course. (09:04):
undefined

Speaker1: But, like, I don't think... I think a lot of times in, like, (09:05):
undefined

Speaker1: modern Anglophone magic, we get really... (09:09):
undefined

Speaker1: Sort of obsessive about tight definitions on things and i just think it's like (09:13):
undefined

Speaker1: not particularly useful so like that's what i mean by solomonic magic but i'm (09:16):
undefined

Speaker1: not like solomonic magic police and if other people want to define it differently they can do that (09:21):
undefined

Speaker0: I always thought of it i'm not sure i've thought about it that much but i mean (09:26):
undefined

Speaker0: i thought about it in the sense of the general kind of mythological framework (09:30):
undefined

Speaker0: of somebody using commanding spirits to build a temple or their life in that (09:33):
undefined

Speaker0: sense it's kind of like the story (09:39):
undefined

Speaker0: of solomon it's like the idiom of you're working within in that idiom as. (09:40):
undefined

Speaker1: Opposed exactly it's (09:45):
undefined

Speaker0: A it's a meta narrative about magic. (09:46):
undefined

Speaker1: Exactly but i think the problem when people define (09:48):
undefined

Speaker1: it that way is like they're actually maybe not that familiar with (09:51):
undefined

Speaker1: the roots of that narrative okay when they are looking at that narrative like (09:54):
undefined

Speaker1: they're looking at that narrative as it plays out in christian europe in western (09:59):
undefined

Speaker1: europe in christendom in like the late medieval and early renaissance period (10:04):
undefined

Speaker1: but actually that That narrative is thousands of years older than that. (10:09):
undefined

Speaker1: And at this point is fully globalized. Like the narrative of Solomon exists (10:12):
undefined

Speaker1: in almost every culture on earth at this point in this really sort of complex way. So what? Okay. (10:16):
undefined

Speaker0: Now, I'm sorry to interrupt. I was just going to I'm just really interested (10:23):
undefined

Speaker0: in that. I was let's go back to the beginning of it then. Yeah. (10:25):
undefined

Speaker1: So I think of Solomonic magic as sort of arising from like what we think of as Solomonic magic. (10:29):
undefined

Speaker1: Right. I think generally sort of gels together, like the trunk of the tree exists (10:36):
undefined

Speaker1: in Greek speaking late antiquity. (10:41):
undefined

Speaker1: And it really happens when like a couple of things start to come together. (10:44):
undefined

Speaker1: So that's things like Babylonian astrotheology and Hebrew theology. (10:48):
undefined

Speaker1: Like word magic, magic of names, of power, right? (10:55):
undefined

Speaker1: And then like Greek goetic sorcery. And when you sort of weave these things (10:59):
undefined

Speaker1: together, I think that's like the trunk of what Salamonic magic is, (11:02):
undefined

Speaker1: but it has all these roots in antiquity and Egyptian priestcraft and Babylonian (11:06):
undefined

Speaker1: astrotheology and Hebrew magic and et cetera, et cetera, right? (11:10):
undefined

Speaker1: And then like in Gregophone-led antiquity, those cultures are actually all bound (11:13):
undefined

Speaker1: together in this one Greek-speaking culture. (11:18):
undefined

Speaker1: Like Greece has colonized all of those places right (11:20):
undefined

Speaker1: and they're sudden not suddenly like i mean really (11:24):
undefined

Speaker1: since the bronze age at least like (11:27):
undefined

Speaker1: those cultures are all tightly interwoven right but at this period of so first (11:30):
undefined

Speaker1: context for listeners right when we talk about late antiquity particularly when (11:34):
undefined

Speaker1: we're talking about late antiquity in the context of like jewish and emir magic (11:38):
undefined

Speaker1: it really means from a little bit before the rise of christianity to a little (11:42):
undefined

Speaker1: bit after the rise of islam like that's broadly (11:46):
undefined

Speaker0: The time that's a long time so it. (11:49):
undefined

Speaker1: Is it is like around (11:51):
undefined

Speaker0: The beginning of the you know around 080 whatever to what 666 something yeah. (11:52):
undefined

Speaker1: Yeah in that range right so broadly when we talk about late antiquity we mean (11:58):
undefined

Speaker1: from around like 200 bce through about maybe like 800 c but you know so (12:03):
undefined

Speaker0: That would cover the birth of buddha almost well that would cover mahayana buddhism (12:09):
undefined

Speaker0: also so that's interesting. (12:12):
undefined

Speaker1: Yes yes i the rise of buddhism there was maybe like less rel like that's not (12:14):
undefined

Speaker1: really interpenetrating yet into the cultures that i'm talking about okay we (12:20):
undefined

Speaker1: say although you know some people the (12:24):
undefined

Speaker0: New testament is pretty similar to mahayana. (12:26):
undefined

Speaker1: It is many people there's a legend that says pythagoras studied with the buddha (12:28):
undefined

Speaker1: whoa or that pythagoras and the i mean i don't think that i don't think that (12:33):
undefined

Speaker1: has like historical significance but I think it's like a cool fun (12:38):
undefined

Speaker0: Myth it's like mythological resonance about. (12:41):
undefined

Speaker1: Yeah right there's so there's certainly like I think generally the world has (12:44):
undefined

Speaker1: been much more connected for much longer than we are generally like led oh absolutely (12:49):
undefined

Speaker0: Yeah got all these religions and gods kind of blend together and I think that (12:56):
undefined

Speaker0: categorizing these things is more of a modern conceit. (12:59):
undefined

Speaker1: Right and that's sort of why I'm saying like I don't feel the need to put super (13:02):
undefined

Speaker1: strict boundaries around like Solomonic magic. (13:05):
undefined

Speaker1: But for me, like as a magician, right, not as a scholar, but as a magician, (13:07):
undefined

Speaker1: like the key component of Solomonic magic is Solomon, right? (13:11):
undefined

Speaker1: Is this, this meta narrative, but also this like inspiring spirit. (13:16):
undefined

Speaker1: The same way that the spirit of Orpheus and the metanarrative of Orpheus is (13:22):
undefined

Speaker1: what weaves together all the different things that we call Orphism similarly, (13:26):
undefined

Speaker1: or that the spirit of Jesus is what weaves together all the complex shit that we call Christianity. (13:31):
undefined

Speaker1: The spirit of Solomon, Magician King, is the thing at the center of what makes (13:36):
undefined

Speaker1: Solomonic magic Solomonic. Right. (13:42):
undefined

Speaker0: I've never been clear on how kind of the idea of Solomon and Solomonic remorse (13:44):
undefined

Speaker0: and magic relates to the story of Solomon in the Bible. (13:49):
undefined

Speaker0: And also, if I'm remembering correctly in the Quran, I think that Solomon is (13:53):
undefined

Speaker0: one of the 27 prophets of Islam, which I've forgotten about for 20 years. (13:57):
undefined

Speaker1: So the earliest stories we have. Okay. So first of all, let me back up a second. (14:04):
undefined

Speaker1: So when I talk about like the mighty dead (14:09):
undefined

Speaker1: right so like dead people that are famous right (14:12):
undefined

Speaker1: when i talk about them in a magical context i think there's broadly (14:15):
undefined

Speaker1: like sort of three like roads to knowing them that we can look at right and (14:19):
undefined

Speaker1: these line up with like aristotle's three roads of epistemology but i'm not (14:24):
undefined

Speaker1: gonna go there but they do right so i will briefly mention that for people who (14:28):
undefined

Speaker1: know what i'm talking about but if you don't that's okay right like so there's (14:32):
undefined

Speaker1: sort of and i call those three roads, hagiography, (14:36):
undefined

Speaker1: history, and hell, right? (14:39):
undefined

Speaker1: So the first one we have is history, right? (14:42):
undefined

Speaker1: Solomon was King Solomon, a historical figure, unclear, but there's quite solid (14:45):
undefined

Speaker1: evidence for a figure that is like sort of like the historical Solomon definitely existing, (14:51):
undefined

Speaker1: probably a little bit later in time than the biblical narrative would happen, right? (14:58):
undefined

Speaker1: But like Like the House of David ruling the kingdom of Israel is a relatively (15:02):
undefined

Speaker1: well-established historical fact, right? (15:07):
undefined

Speaker1: So the Solomon narrative is like (15:10):
undefined

Speaker1: reasonably crunchy relative to like other mythological figures, right? (15:12):
undefined

Speaker1: And we can look at that in a historical context. We actually know a lot about (15:18):
undefined

Speaker1: the historical context in which he lived, right? (15:22):
undefined

Speaker1: And we can look at that for sort of information about him and who he is. (15:26):
undefined

Speaker1: Then we have this hagiography. And Solomon's hagiography, as we've mentioned, (15:29):
undefined

Speaker1: is extremely complicated, right? (15:33):
undefined

Speaker1: The oldest sources we have, the hagiographic sources, like hagiography just means like, (15:35):
undefined

Speaker1: religious biography. I know you know that, but I don't know who's listening, right? (15:41):
undefined

Speaker0: Well, I mean, I can always get it better. I always thought it was kind of like (15:46):
undefined

Speaker0: a biography of a saint is how I thought of it. (15:50):
undefined

Speaker1: That's how it's normally used. And that's really what I'm saying. (15:52):
undefined

Speaker1: Saint is really just a Christian word for mighty dead, right? (15:56):
undefined

Speaker1: So that is sort of the same content. (15:59):
undefined

Speaker1: And in fact, in the Eastern Orthodox Church, Solomon is indeed a saint. (16:01):
undefined

Speaker0: Oh, I didn't know that. (16:05):
undefined

Speaker1: Catholicism too i'm not i don't i don't know much about christian mythology (16:06):
undefined

Speaker1: and what christian mythology i do know is generally coming out of a greek orthodox context i (16:11):
undefined

Speaker0: Would i would guess probably greek orthodox i don't i've never heard catholic but i don't. (16:16):
undefined

Speaker1: Know i mean definitely greek orthodox and russian orthodox okay okay that's (16:21):
undefined

Speaker1: really interesting that's really interesting all the patriarchs all the biblical (16:25):
undefined

Speaker1: like all the like big biblical characters really are our saints in Eastern Orthodoxy. (16:28):
undefined

Speaker0: And go ahead. (16:35):
undefined

Speaker1: So, right. So we have this really rich hagiography and like the roots of it, (16:36):
undefined

Speaker1: the oldest sources we have are in Torah, like the book of Kings and the books (16:40):
undefined

Speaker1: of Chronicles, books of Kings and the book of Chronicles. (16:44):
undefined

Speaker1: Right. And they give us this like complex mythology of him that has like a lot of detail. Right. (16:47):
undefined

Speaker1: And then hell, this third road, like I'm a magician and I talk to dead people and they talk back. (16:53):
undefined

Speaker1: Right. And so that's like our third road to knowledge right (16:58):
undefined

Speaker0: You're kind of talking about hell is in the greek sense or even the norse sense of kind of like just. (17:02):
undefined

Speaker1: Just mean like by hell i mean the place where dead people live i in this context (17:07):
undefined

Speaker1: i chose that word because it starts with h as do history and geography um but (17:13):
undefined

Speaker1: i also do intentionally choose it for its like christian charge got it like (17:17):
undefined

Speaker1: i'm i'm certainly doing that on purpose but so (17:24):
undefined

Speaker0: You're using it in the christian sense and not the greek sense. (17:26):
undefined

Speaker1: I mean it's i would say i'm using it in an english sense and our word hell like (17:28):
undefined

Speaker1: comes out of the norse context right i mean the underworld where dead people (17:35):
undefined

Speaker1: live that's what i mean okay (17:40):
undefined

Speaker1: And I mean, I don't want to get too, yes, right? So we can just say underworld (17:42):
undefined

Speaker1: if it makes people more comfortable. (17:49):
undefined

Speaker1: But I will say in this particular context, I chose it because I already had (17:50):
undefined

Speaker1: two words that started with H. (17:53):
undefined

Speaker1: That's the complex reasoning why I picked hell. (17:55):
undefined

Speaker1: Sometimes I just pick things for their poetic value. For sure. Right? (17:58):
undefined

Speaker1: So when we weave these things together, for Solomon in particular, (18:02):
undefined

Speaker1: hagiographically, we We have this really rich mythology, right? (18:06):
undefined

Speaker1: That starts in Torah, but certainly doesn't end there, right? (18:10):
undefined

Speaker1: Like he's talked about, like, first of all, and like, I think sometimes people (18:13):
undefined

Speaker1: who don't come up Jewish kind of approach Judaism as if it's a dead culture, right? Really? (18:18):
undefined

Speaker1: Yeah, as if Judaism, like, stopped producing things thousands of years ago. (18:24):
undefined

Speaker0: Maybe if you don't grow up around Jews. (18:29):
undefined

Speaker1: Yeah, like there's this ongoing tradition. (18:32):
undefined

Speaker0: If you don't know Jews, I mean, otherwise it's pretty clear that it didn't stop. (18:34):
undefined

Speaker1: Yeah, you'd fix that. But I mean, you know, Christian structurally Christianity (18:37):
undefined

Speaker1: is invested in the in supersession. (18:41):
undefined

Speaker0: Oh, I see. Yeah, yeah. Okay. I see. I see what you mean. (18:44):
undefined

Speaker1: Like it's Judaism of Torah is how like what Judaism is, right? (18:46):
undefined

Speaker1: Right. But there's this whole continuing rich mythology of Solomon in a Jewish (18:51):
undefined

Speaker1: context through Talmud and then through much later Midrash and continuing on into the modern day. (18:56):
undefined

Speaker1: And that spreads from there. Right. There's a whole Christian mythology about (19:01):
undefined

Speaker1: Solomon. There's an entire Quranic mythology. (19:04):
undefined

Speaker1: There's pre-Quranic Muslim sources. There's pre-Christian European pagan sources. (19:07):
undefined

Speaker1: There are probably pre-Judaic sources, but we don't really have access to those. (19:12):
undefined

Speaker1: Right. So you have this really complicated worldwide mythology. (19:17):
undefined

Speaker1: Solomon figures really prominently in a lot of Afro-Caribbean diaspora mythologies. (19:20):
undefined

Speaker1: So you have this really complicated hagiography about Solomon. (19:26):
undefined

Speaker0: One thing I've never been fully clear on, actually, is the overlap or the relation (19:30):
undefined

Speaker0: of Solomon's temple building with the narrative of the building of the first (19:36):
undefined

Speaker0: and second temple, if those are related or unrelated. Right. (19:39):
undefined

Speaker1: Yes, the temple that Solomon is building in the Solomon narrative is the first (19:43):
undefined

Speaker1: temple. It is the first temple. (19:50):
undefined

Speaker0: Okay. All right. Gotcha. Okay. (19:51):
undefined

Speaker1: Yes. Yes. Often called Solomon's temple, envisioned by his father, (19:53):
undefined

Speaker1: David, but constructed. (19:57):
undefined

Speaker0: Okay, perfect. That's about as simple as it can get. (19:58):
undefined

Speaker1: Constructed by Solomon. I don't mean like Solomon built it with his own hands, (20:00):
undefined

Speaker1: but I mean, he was the king that Solomon came to the throne really early. (20:04):
undefined

Speaker1: And so David, right, like Israel is at war through pretty much David's entire reign, right? (20:07):
undefined

Speaker1: But Solomon, his name means peacemaker, right? (20:16):
undefined

Speaker1: And he really ushers in this era of like, in as much as we have a historical (20:18):
undefined

Speaker1: record historically, but certainly mythographically, right? Right. (20:23):
undefined

Speaker1: He ushers in this this era of peace. (20:27):
undefined

Speaker1: Right. He makes peace with all his neighbors, mostly by marrying, marrying him. (20:30):
undefined

Speaker1: So he marries his daughter like he he makes peace with all his neighbors. (20:33):
undefined

Speaker1: And he's really so Israel is very rich and politically powerful under Solomon's rule. (20:37):
undefined

Speaker1: And Solomon engages in a wide campaign of like infrastructure building, (20:42):
undefined

Speaker1: including but not limited to the building of the first temple. (20:47):
undefined

Speaker0: Well, thank you very much. That's about as simple and straightforward as it can get. So gotcha. (20:51):
undefined

Speaker0: So how did Solomonic magic in the Middle Ages later become associated with summoning (20:56):
undefined

Speaker0: demons and angels and all of that stuff? (21:02):
undefined

Speaker1: So what we call Solomonic magic really has its roots in that sort of spirit magic, right? (21:05):
undefined

Speaker1: So Hebrew magic broadly and Jewish magic in particular, it really relies on (21:11):
undefined

Speaker1: the use of magic names, names of power, right? (21:16):
undefined

Speaker1: Right. So, you know, every time we characterize magic, like we're doing that (21:21):
undefined

Speaker1: in order to talk about it. (21:25):
undefined

Speaker1: And as magicians, I think when we actually practice magic, we're almost always (21:27):
undefined

Speaker1: like mixing categories. (21:31):
undefined

Speaker1: But Agrippa lays out these three categories of magic. (21:32):
undefined

Speaker1: The first he calls natural magic in modern English would mostly call it sympathetic magic. (21:35):
undefined

Speaker1: So that's magic that is like the oomph of it, like the power of it is coming (21:40):
undefined

Speaker1: from physical objects, including human bodies. So energy work, (21:45):
undefined

Speaker1: physically instantiated, the magic of rocks and plants and all that. (21:49):
undefined

Speaker1: So it's really magic that is bound in matter. That's his first category. (21:53):
undefined

Speaker1: His next category he calls celestial, but we would mostly call astrological. (21:58):
undefined

Speaker1: It's magic that's bound to time. Right. (22:05):
undefined

Speaker1: And then he has this third category that he calls divine. (22:08):
undefined

Speaker1: And I might call ideal, not necessarily ideal, like perfect, (22:11):
undefined

Speaker1: but ideal, like made out of ideas. (22:15):
undefined

Speaker1: And that's things that are bound in neither matter nor time. Right. (22:17):
undefined

Speaker1: So in so Jewish magic, broadly Hebrew magic and the like Solomonic magic broadly. (22:21):
undefined

Speaker1: Right. What we talk about Solomonic magic is in that third category. Right. (22:28):
undefined

Speaker1: So even the planetary pentacles are not astrological magic. (22:32):
undefined

Speaker1: Primarily, they're magic that relies on words and names. (22:36):
undefined

Speaker1: Right. They're ideal divine magic in this category. Right. And that's sort of (22:40):
undefined

Speaker1: the case with Hebrew and Jewish magic. (22:45):
undefined

Speaker1: Broadly, like historically, as far back as we can go, that's sort of like most (22:48):
undefined

Speaker1: Jewish magic is in that category. (22:53):
undefined

Speaker1: Now, Judaism certainly has a very rich tradition of sympathetic magic, (22:55):
undefined

Speaker1: right? Particularly herbalism. (23:02):
undefined

Speaker1: Judaism certainly has a very rich tradition of astrological magic, (23:04):
undefined

Speaker1: which it largely inherits from the Babylonian captivity. (23:08):
undefined

Speaker1: Productivity right but like it's sort of that name magic is really where the (23:11):
undefined

Speaker1: essence of it is right and you know that puts you very squarely in like a spirit (23:17):
undefined

Speaker1: magic category like the names you are working with are indeed names of spirits okay (23:25):
undefined

Speaker0: So that kind of defines in a sense the core of solomonic magic for you. (23:30):
undefined

Speaker1: I think so yeah it's certainly one characteristic okay of solomonic magic is (23:35):
undefined

Speaker1: that it primarily relies on the, the, (23:41):
undefined

Speaker1: it relies on like most magic, it relies on specialized technical knowledge, right? (23:44):
undefined

Speaker1: And the particular technical knowledge that we use most often in Solomonic magic (23:50):
undefined

Speaker1: is a knowledge of names, right? (23:54):
undefined

Speaker1: And so if you look at sort of the earliest sources that we can really call Solomonic, (23:57):
undefined

Speaker1: I'm being so nerdy today. (24:02):
undefined

Speaker1: Like when we look at the the (24:04):
undefined

Speaker1: things the earliest things that any reasonable person would (24:07):
undefined

Speaker1: agree are solomonic magic right so like the testament of solomon (24:10):
undefined

Speaker1: for example which is an early greek language probably jewish but not necessarily (24:13):
undefined

Speaker1: text it has a frame story but it's mostly like a spirit catalog right and when (24:19):
undefined

Speaker1: you read it it's very clear that the understanding is that like the specific thing that allows you to (24:25):
undefined

Speaker1: to command spirits, to work with spirits is knowledge of names. (24:33):
undefined

Speaker0: Gotcha. So I'm super curious about the moment, (24:37):
undefined

Speaker0: the intersection of Judaism into Hermeticism, or with Hermeticism, (24:42):
undefined

Speaker0: with particularly Lurianic Kabbalah or 12th century Spain, (24:47):
undefined

Speaker0: where rabbis were bringing all this knowledge of Jewish magic and Kabbalah into Europe. (24:52):
undefined

Speaker0: And then we somehow get from that to, I mean, I'm clear that happened, (24:58):
undefined

Speaker0: but I'm not kind of clear on where the history of that, because by the time (25:03):
undefined

Speaker0: we get to kind of the Middle Ages, you can clearly look at the Solomonic grimoires, (25:06):
undefined

Speaker0: and they have kind of Hebrew in it, but it looks like Hebrew. (25:10):
undefined

Speaker0: It was written by somebody who didn't know Hebrew, kind of like a best guess. (25:13):
undefined

Speaker0: They don't seem to be written certainly by Jewish people. And so I'm kind of (25:16):
undefined

Speaker0: curious where all that, what went on there. (25:20):
undefined

Speaker1: Really what you have to do is first distinguish between Europe and Christendom. (25:24):
undefined

Speaker1: So you have to understand that the Iberian Peninsula, Spain and Portugal, (25:28):
undefined

Speaker1: right, was not part of Christendom until quite late, right? And that's really what happens. (25:31):
undefined

Speaker1: Like the movement you're talking about is there is this ongoing and continuing (25:37):
undefined

Speaker1: flourishing movement of Solomonic magic starting in late antiquity in this unbroken, (25:40):
undefined

Speaker1: very much alive tradition in both Jewish and Muslim communities, right? (25:46):
undefined

Speaker0: But not in Christendom, like emanating from the Middle East is what you're saying? (25:51):
undefined

Speaker1: I mean, it's definitely happening in Christendom, too, but it's illegal in Christendom. (25:54):
undefined

Speaker0: Okay. But the influence is from the Middle East. (25:58):
undefined

Speaker1: Yes. And also, like... (26:01):
undefined

Speaker1: As a rule, people in Christendom are perhaps less educated and less literate. (26:04):
undefined

Speaker1: And Solomonic magic is a magic that requires like really quite a high degree (26:09):
undefined

Speaker1: of literacy and education. (26:12):
undefined

Speaker1: Right. And then with the fall of Al-Andalus, right, what Christians would call (26:15):
undefined

Speaker1: the Reconquista, like the fall of Spain and Portugal to Christendom, (26:19):
undefined

Speaker1: like that magic starts to disseminate into Europe. (26:24):
undefined

Speaker1: So like that's what happens, right, is Spain becomes Christianized. (26:29):
undefined

Speaker1: And so the Solomonic magic that has been being worked in Spain that entire time (26:33):
undefined

Speaker1: starts to get reintroduced into Christian Europe. (26:38):
undefined

Speaker0: And that also would, I assume, include Kabbalah, Luriana Kabbalah, that time period? (26:44):
undefined

Speaker1: Yes. I mean, that is certainly also happening with Kabbalah, (26:49):
undefined

Speaker1: with Luriana Kabbalah, but also many other kinds of Kabbalah. (26:53):
undefined

Speaker0: Okay. But that was Spain too, right? (26:56):
undefined

Speaker1: Yes and no I mean it is partly Happening in Spain there are many Centers of (27:00):
undefined

Speaker1: sort of like the birth Of modern Kabbalah some of them are in Spain And then (27:06):
undefined

Speaker1: move to the Levant to Israel After the fall of Al-Andalus but there is also like (27:10):
undefined

Speaker1: You know there's never a time period in history Where there aren't Jews in Israel (27:19):
undefined

Speaker1: Doing Jewish stuff right And so like there is also this (27:23):
undefined

Speaker1: like flourishing center of learning in in israel in cairo there's a really strong center of (27:28):
undefined

Speaker1: Kabbalah. So what we think of as when Al-Andalus fell, right, (27:38):
undefined

Speaker1: when Sepharad was expelled, right? (27:44):
undefined

Speaker1: So when Jews were expelled from Spain, right? (27:46):
undefined

Speaker1: Think about I'm trying to make this short. Following the Roman conquest of Israel, right? (27:51):
undefined

Speaker1: Like Jews are primarily living in diaspora, right? (27:56):
undefined

Speaker1: And those diaspora communities are in contact with each other, (28:00):
undefined

Speaker1: but like not as in contact, right? And they share Hebrew as a language, (28:04):
undefined

Speaker1: but that is not their colloquial everyday language, and not everyone can speak (28:09):
undefined

Speaker1: it fluently enough to be in contact. (28:13):
undefined

Speaker1: So Judaism sort of breaks into these sort of separate communities, (28:15):
undefined

Speaker1: one that speaks primarily Arabic, like Judeo-Arabic living in the Levant, right? (28:19):
undefined

Speaker1: One in first in like Western Europe and the Rhineland. (28:25):
undefined

Speaker1: And then when they're expelled from there, moving to like Eastern Europe to (28:29):
undefined

Speaker1: what we would now call like maybe modern Ukraine, Podolia, called Ashkenaz, right? (28:33):
undefined

Speaker1: Mizrahi is the name for Arabic speaking one. And then we have the Sephardic (28:38):
undefined

Speaker1: community in Iberia, right? (28:41):
undefined

Speaker1: When Al-Andalus falls, right, that shakes up that map and those communities (28:44):
undefined

Speaker1: are suddenly very much in contact with each other. (28:48):
undefined

Speaker1: And as always happens, right when like communities are suddenly in contact with (28:51):
undefined

Speaker1: each other that weren't for a while there's like this flourishing of like you (28:57):
undefined

Speaker1: know you get to see new viewpoints and new ideas and that leads to a lot of (29:00):
undefined

Speaker1: new ideas right and cabal really grows out of that (29:03):
undefined

Speaker0: Must have been a fascinating i mean probably very very violent but fascinating (29:06):
undefined

Speaker0: period of history with an intellectual quantum leap. (29:10):
undefined

Speaker1: I think all periods of history are (29:13):
undefined

Speaker0: Fascinating oh yeah yeah of course good to good way to look at it so then from (29:15):
undefined

Speaker0: that point on i mean you kind of get into you get into i guess what you could (29:19):
undefined

Speaker0: call or what people do call the european grimoire tradition and it becomes what happens next. (29:24):
undefined

Speaker1: Well, a lot of things happen, right? So there become like these parallel traditions, right? (29:30):
undefined

Speaker1: Which is already happening, right? There are these parallel traditions of like (29:34):
undefined

Speaker1: a Jewish Solomonic magic. (29:38):
undefined

Speaker1: There are primarily three kinds of Solomonic magic from this period, right? (29:40):
undefined

Speaker1: There's a Jewish Solomonic magic, a Muslim Solomonic magic, and a Christian Solomonic magic. (29:43):
undefined

Speaker1: People in the West, like, are really only familiar with the European kind. (29:49):
undefined

Speaker1: And that's really because Europeans (29:53):
undefined

Speaker1: only give a shit about texts that are written in European languages. (29:55):
undefined

Speaker1: So there are plenty of like Arabic language, Salmanic grammars, (30:00):
undefined

Speaker1: many Hebrew language, Salmanic grammars, but like the only ones that really (30:03):
undefined

Speaker1: get translated until very recently, the only ones that are being translated (30:06):
undefined

Speaker1: into English, the only ones that are being studied by Anglophones are those European traditions. (30:09):
undefined

Speaker1: And as you said, they're often quite corrupt manuscripts in the sense like, (30:13):
undefined

Speaker1: I mean, you'll look at the Pentacles in particular, right? So is all Salmanic magic Jewish? (30:19):
undefined

Speaker1: I am not making that claim, but it's hard to make the claim that the Pentacles (30:23):
undefined

Speaker1: are not Hebrew in religion like they're covered in hebrews right right right (30:27):
undefined

Speaker1: i mean you say that but many of my colleagues will try and argue that wait (30:31):
undefined

Speaker0: Really well that's kind of yeah and. (30:36):
undefined

Speaker1: Also not only that but if you're familiar with like hebrew amulet traditions (30:39):
undefined

Speaker1: the pentacles look exactly like other kinds of jewish and hebrew like they're (30:43):
undefined

Speaker1: very squarely in this ongoing like jewish hebrew amulet tradition that's pretty (30:48):
undefined

Speaker1: straightforward yeah i mean like just even if you don't read Hebrew, (30:52):
undefined

Speaker1: if you just visibly look at them, they're just quite similar. (30:55):
undefined

Speaker1: So sometimes in these European manuscripts, you can tell. (31:00):
undefined

Speaker1: You look at them, and they were clearly copied by people who not only aren't (31:04):
undefined

Speaker1: Hebrew literate, but they don't even know the alphabet. (31:09):
undefined

Speaker0: So some of these things are just like squiggles. Yeah. Sometimes it's hard to (31:11):
undefined

Speaker0: tell if it's printer error or the engraving error, but it just looks like somebody (31:14):
undefined

Speaker0: trying to hand copy something that they don't understand. (31:20):
undefined

Speaker1: Yeah, I mean, like, I know what that looks like. Like, I didn't grow up Hebrew (31:22):
undefined

Speaker1: literate, like my early attempts at Hebrew, it's hard to figure out what letter (31:26):
undefined

Speaker1: I'm copying also, because I don't even know the alphabet, right? (31:29):
undefined

Speaker1: So like, some of the manuscripts are quite corrupt, right? Right. (31:33):
undefined

Speaker1: Now, what happens, though, is like those manuscripts, some of them are being (31:37):
undefined

Speaker1: written by genuine magicians. Right. (31:41):
undefined

Speaker1: Who like even if they can't read it, as we said, there are other roads to magical knowledge. (31:42):
undefined

Speaker1: Right. And so they can reconstruct these pentacles for themselves. (31:48):
undefined

Speaker1: Right. In ways that make them work. (31:52):
undefined

Speaker1: Right. And so, like I say, corrupt, but I think it's a mistake to understand (31:54):
undefined

Speaker1: there to be like one correct, pure version. Okay, right. (31:59):
undefined

Speaker1: Like, I think magicians forge their own versions of them and make them work. (32:03):
undefined

Speaker0: So are you are you of the school that it's it's the intention that counts? (32:07):
undefined

Speaker1: So it's complicated, right? What I think is. (32:11):
undefined

Speaker1: I'm not going to talk about magic broadly because I think it's too big of a topic, right? (32:14):
undefined

Speaker1: And I really, I think that we apply the word magic to a lot of things that are (32:18):
undefined

Speaker1: only tangentially related to each other. (32:22):
undefined

Speaker1: But for like Hebrew word magic in particular, what I think is most important (32:24):
undefined

Speaker1: is matching your, how to do this in English, your like ritual precision, right? (32:28):
undefined

Speaker1: Right. Like the actual name, like the precise thing that it is, (32:36):
undefined

Speaker1: has to match the intention, the Kavanaugh, the like mystic intention. (32:41):
undefined

Speaker1: Right. And so it's not that only the intent matters. It's also not that only (32:45):
undefined

Speaker1: the name matters. It's that those things have to fit together. (32:49):
undefined

Speaker1: Right. And there's more than one way to do that. Right. So like if the name (32:53):
undefined

Speaker1: has been changed or corrupt, that doesn't mean it won't work, (32:56):
undefined

Speaker1: but it does mean that like your intention, it's sort of important to match it. (32:59):
undefined

Speaker1: Now right there are other ways to make magic right so if we talk about pentacles right like (33:02):
undefined

Speaker1: Pentacles qua pentacles they operate from the (33:10):
undefined

Speaker1: magic of those names but we all know there are many ways to make amulets to (33:13):
undefined

Speaker1: make talismans that do not rely on that at all right you can build them out (33:18):
undefined

Speaker1: of this so we're going to go back to like agrippa's three categories because (33:21):
undefined

Speaker1: they're sort of convenient for this particular conversation so you can build (33:24):
undefined

Speaker1: one that is primarily fueled by I like sympathetic magic. (33:28):
undefined

Speaker1: That is to say, it's the correct metal and the correct ink and the correct color (33:31):
undefined

Speaker1: and you've bathed it in the correct herbs and et cetera, et cetera, right? (33:35):
undefined

Speaker1: You can build one that is made astrologically and it's primarily fueled by having (33:38):
undefined

Speaker1: been made at like the exact right moment. (33:42):
undefined

Speaker1: But I would argue that those things, which are great, like I'm not saying those (33:44):
undefined

Speaker1: are bad things, but I would argue (33:48):
undefined

Speaker1: that those things, they're not really technically Solomonic pentacles. (33:49):
undefined

Speaker1: They're some other kind of amulet that happens to be decorated as if it were a Solomonic (33:53):
undefined

Speaker1: Like for me, it is that name magic that is the essence of Solomonic magic, right? (33:59):
undefined

Speaker1: And you don't need correct metals, correct inks, none of that. (34:04):
undefined

Speaker1: You don't need astrological timing, like because the magic is in the words and names. (34:08):
undefined

Speaker1: Now, why would you not also use like appropriate inks and appropriate parchment (34:13):
undefined

Speaker1: and appropriate timing and all those things? Like you can layer these things on top of each other. (34:19):
undefined

Speaker1: And that's what I mean when I say like when we categorize things, (34:23):
undefined

Speaker1: it's kind of an artificial beneficial and like scholarly way to (34:26):
undefined

Speaker1: approach it but as magicians we're actually almost (34:29):
undefined

Speaker1: always i think combining all these things together gotcha right but i would (34:33):
undefined

Speaker1: argue that if like if you can't if you if i point at your salamonic kind of (34:38):
undefined

Speaker1: thing i'm like hey what's this word and you don't know the answer to that question (34:42):
undefined

Speaker1: then i would argue it is not a salamonic pinnacle it's just decorated (34:46):
undefined

Speaker0: To that's pretty clear cut. (34:49):
undefined

Speaker1: But again i'm not the magic police i'm not here to like tell other people are (34:51):
undefined

Speaker1: doing it wrong. I'm here to help other people do it better. (34:55):
undefined

Speaker0: Well, academic precision and historical precision and precision about the words (34:57):
undefined

Speaker0: you're using are in short supply in magic. (35:02):
undefined

Speaker0: I think so. And that, unfortunately, that ahistoricality, it underlines just that. (35:05):
undefined

Speaker0: It creates a sense that what people are doing is not rooted in anything real in tradition, (35:13):
undefined

Speaker0: in historical context, and cultural context and there's not necessarily not (35:19):
undefined

Speaker0: necessarily anything wrong with that but there's another way to look at it historical. (35:24):
undefined

Speaker1: Context yeah there's (35:28):
undefined

Speaker0: All the context is there you. (35:29):
undefined

Speaker1: Know i just it here's what it is like i'm not saying other people are doing (35:31):
undefined

Speaker1: it wrong i'm saying like this is how i do it and like i'm gonna explain to other (35:36):
undefined

Speaker1: people how they can i think you get more juice out of your salamonic pentacles (35:40):
undefined

Speaker1: like i think a salamonic pentacle where you actually understood the person. (35:45):
undefined

Speaker1: And when I say you, I'm going to talk about like a person making a panic before themselves. (35:50):
undefined

Speaker1: But where the scribe really understood the words that they were writing and (35:54):
undefined

Speaker1: their intent when they wrote those words matched those words. (35:59):
undefined

Speaker1: I think if they do it with a Bic pen on the back of a paper towel, (36:04):
undefined

Speaker1: I think my experience is, not just my experience from making the book, (36:10):
undefined

Speaker1: but my experience of seeing many other peoples, that you get more power out (36:14):
undefined

Speaker1: of that than you do from Solomonic Pentacles constructed in other ways. (36:18):
undefined

Speaker0: Wait you get more power say that. (36:24):
undefined

Speaker1: Again you get (36:26):
undefined

Speaker0: More power if you draw it on a on a paper towel with a bick if. (36:27):
undefined

Speaker1: You know what you're doing then if (36:31):
undefined

Speaker0: You know what you're doing then. (36:32):
undefined

Speaker1: If you ingrained engraved it one metal at an astrologically cast time but you (36:33):
undefined

Speaker1: don't know what those words (36:37):
undefined

Speaker0: Mean okay yeah completely. (36:38):
undefined

Speaker1: Like the actual power is in the names right and therefore that's what i think (36:40):
undefined

Speaker0: I mean that's that's true that's true almost every go ahead go ahead i'm sorry. (36:45):
undefined

Speaker1: But i mean i also am willing to say that like i personally perhaps am good at (36:50):
undefined

Speaker1: that kind of magic like better at that magic than i am at say astrological magic well (36:55):
undefined

Speaker0: Not knowing what you're doing is generally not the key to success tell you what i. (37:01):
undefined

Speaker1: Mean yeah tell (37:05):
undefined

Speaker0: You what i'm gonna go i saw you just poured a drink i'm gonna go grab some coffee (37:06):
undefined

Speaker0: and come back and then i want to switch from historical to talking about how (37:09):
undefined

Speaker0: you approach this practically as a magician. (37:12):
undefined

Speaker1: I will meet you back here in 30 seconds. (37:15):
undefined

Speaker0: Okay, thanks for waiting. So yeah, I just wanted to ask, shifting to the practical, (37:18):
undefined

Speaker0: talk about doing this stuff as a modern, educated, rational person. (37:24):
undefined

Speaker0: Why a modern person would want to engage in this stuff? (37:28):
undefined

Speaker0: And hopefully walk us through kind of what it looks, feels, and sounds like to do this type of stuff. (37:32):
undefined

Speaker0: And any stories you can offer about crazy things that have happened or interesting (37:38):
undefined

Speaker0: results, all the better. (37:41):
undefined

Speaker1: Sure. i mean in terms of like why a (37:43):
undefined

Speaker1: modern person would want to do this like i don't (37:46):
undefined

Speaker1: really know how to answer that because to me it is so obvious why a person would (37:49):
undefined

Speaker1: want to do magic i find it baffling that not everyone wants to do magic it's (37:54):
undefined

Speaker1: because you hold the raw power of the universe in your hands and bend it to (37:58):
undefined

Speaker1: your will and that to me just seems like obviously fabulous fabulous. (38:03):
undefined

Speaker1: Like why would a person want to do Solomonic magic as opposed to some other kind of magic? (38:09):
undefined

Speaker1: Look, I think, first of all, like, let me be clear. Like I don't do exclusively (38:15):
undefined

Speaker1: Yeah right i think in our culture salamonic magic is privileged over a lot of (39:07):
undefined

Speaker1: other kinds of magic for like some like pretty (39:15):
undefined

Speaker1: think similarly, like Solomonic magicians and magicians broadly and people in (39:51):
undefined

Speaker1: our culture broadly tend to look down their nose at magic that's associated (39:54):
undefined

Speaker1: with women, even though like Salmonic magic is certainly not historically a gendered practice. (39:58):
undefined

Speaker1: So like when you read Hebrew manuscripts, because Hebrew language is gendered, (40:04):
undefined

Speaker1: like sometimes it makes quite clear that like the operator, like this, (40:08):
undefined

Speaker1: the operator of this magic is indeed female, like, Oh, okay. (40:12):
undefined

Speaker0: Wow. (40:17):
undefined

Speaker1: Right. Like you can tell, I mean, you can just tell because of the way the language (40:17):
undefined

Speaker1: is. Right. And also because of the, like, (40:20):
undefined

Speaker1: uses right so christian grimoire is (40:23):
undefined

Speaker1: a lot of times just remove any of the like female-y magic (40:26):
undefined

Speaker1: so like it's weird actually that (40:29):
undefined

Speaker1: like the key of solomon has no magic for like (40:32):
undefined

Speaker1: ensuring healthy pregnancy and delivery which is like a really core sort of (40:35):
undefined

Speaker1: magical intention in lots of things including in hebrew amulet tradition and (40:39):
undefined

Speaker1: i always thought it was like strange that there wasn't any pentacle about that (40:44):
undefined

Speaker1: because you'd think there would be why do you think why do i think that happened yeah I mean, (40:47):
undefined

Speaker1: I think because Christian copies of the Key of Solomon are written by feudal (40:52):
undefined

Speaker1: warlords for other feudal warlords. And so, like, I think. (40:58):
undefined

Speaker0: Okay. I mean, so when you say feudal warlords, you're talking about literal (41:01):
undefined

Speaker0: kings in Europe or what do you mean? (41:05):
undefined

Speaker1: Kings and dukes and knights. Yeah. Like feudal warlords. (41:08):
undefined

Speaker1: I mean, I know maybe we're not supposed to call them warlords when they're white. (41:11):
undefined

Speaker1: Like that is what we're talking about. (41:15):
undefined

Speaker0: For this period in history. I mean, yeah. Very interesting. Interesting. (41:17):
undefined

Speaker0: So you're saying it was constrained to the nobility? (41:21):
undefined

Speaker1: I mean, yes, yes. (41:24):
undefined

Speaker1: I think that demonic magic in Christian Europe, I mean, constrained is a strong (41:27):
undefined

Speaker1: word, but I do think that it's like largely written. (41:32):
undefined

Speaker1: I think that the texts we are, I mean, I think literacy was pretty tightly, (41:34):
undefined

Speaker1: I think the overwhelming majority of Christian Europe was illiterate, right? Right. (41:40):
undefined

Speaker1: So I think, first of all, as soon as we're looking at written sources like that (41:46):
undefined

Speaker1: is ruling out a large amount of the population. But also, I think that magic (41:50):
undefined

Speaker1: carried a death sentence for everyone else in Christian Europe. (41:55):
undefined

Speaker0: And do you think that's because they wanted it for themselves, (42:00):
undefined

Speaker0: the warlords that you mentioned? (42:02):
undefined

Speaker1: Yes. I mean, yes. But I also think it's for like more complex social reasons. (42:05):
undefined

undefined

Speaker1: So like, but like, if you look at Hebrew manuscripts, like there are lots of (42:12):
undefined

Speaker1: pentacles for healthy birth and delivery, including some that are like clearly (42:17):
undefined

Speaker1: the antecedent of like some of Mather's pentacles. (42:21):
undefined

Speaker1: But those uses have simply been stripped out (42:25):
undefined

Speaker1: and in particular like the fact that (42:28):
undefined

Speaker1: the person making them was also female is just (42:31):
undefined

Speaker1: stripped out in those versions and is that (42:34):
undefined

Speaker1: intentional or not i mean i think everyone brings their own comp like when every (42:37):
undefined

Speaker1: translation right which i mean in like a really broad sense like translation (42:41):
undefined

Speaker1: as an activity like everyone brings their own translators bias to the table (42:46):
undefined

Speaker1: like i'm certainly bringing my bias to the table when i do this and i think for For a long time, (42:50):
undefined

Speaker1: there was just a very specific kind of person who was doing those translations. (42:55):
undefined

Speaker0: Is there a surviving Jewish Solomonic tradition that was not part of that copying (43:00):
undefined

Speaker0: or did not diverge in that Christianized direction and continued on as it had been? (43:08):
undefined

Speaker1: Well, I mean, nothing continues on as it has been, right? That's what I'm saying. (43:15):
undefined

Speaker1: Like those that like every Jewish hand is also bringing their own bias to it. (43:18):
undefined

Speaker0: One that wasn't taken out of the Jewish context. (43:23):
undefined

Speaker1: It's hard to say. There are certainly Hebrew manuscripts of Salomonic texts (43:26):
undefined

Speaker1: that appear to have an entirely Hebrew literate chain of transmission, yes. (43:31):
undefined

Speaker0: Okay, okay. (43:36):
undefined

Speaker1: Yeah. So the text I'm working on now is called Zephyr Ha'otot. (43:37):
undefined

Speaker1: It is a Hebrew manuscript of Pentacles. (43:41):
undefined

Speaker1: Particular manuscript is relatively late you'd think i would know this date i'm gonna say like (43:45):
undefined

Speaker1: 1760 maybe i know it's like sad that (43:52):
undefined

Speaker1: i don't have that date off the top of my head relatively late but i mean it's (43:56):
undefined

Speaker1: it's the it's scribe is clearly very hebrew fluent like he he does some really (43:59):
undefined

Speaker1: like sophisticated hebrew stuff (44:06):
undefined

Speaker1: right his name is isaac and and unlike in christian you're like Like, (44:08):
undefined

Speaker1: because magic is, like, quasi-illegal in Europe, (44:13):
undefined

Speaker1: Christian grimoire texts tend to occlude their sources, which I understand, (44:16):
undefined

Speaker1: because citing sources and naming names are the same activity, right? (44:21):
undefined

Speaker1: Like, you can't say, like, oh, I learned this from such and such, (44:25):
undefined

Speaker1: because that's turning, like, such and such is going to go to the pyre for that, right? (44:28):
undefined

Speaker1: But, like, in Jewish context, you know, a magician is, like, weird, right? (44:32):
undefined

Speaker1: And so maybe you, like, wouldn't want your sister to date a magician because (44:36):
undefined

Speaker1: he's kind of a weirdo, but it's not illegal, right? (44:39):
undefined

Speaker0: I don't disagree with that. (44:42):
undefined

Speaker1: Right, right, right. He's still a fully functioning member of your community. (44:45):
undefined

Speaker1: In fact, oftentimes he's a quite well-respected or she is a quite well-respected (44:49):
undefined

Speaker1: member of the community. (44:54):
undefined

Speaker1: So Jewish texts have a cleaner chain of transmission. (44:55):
undefined

Speaker1: So Isaac is like, my name is Isaac. Here's my dad's name. (44:59):
undefined

Speaker1: I grew up in Worms. I copied this text from Judah Perez in London. (45:02):
undefined

Speaker1: He says he got it such and such, right? And so we have these, (45:06):
undefined

Speaker1: Also, he has this really detailed and sophisticated Torah knowledge as well. (45:10):
undefined

Speaker1: So the versicles, the Torah verses that are used on the Pentacles, (45:17):
undefined

Speaker1: the text is doing a lot of sophisticated cryptography on them. (45:22):
undefined

Speaker1: So sometimes it's like generating a magic name. It'll like take a Torah verse (45:28):
undefined

Speaker1: and take like the first letter of every word and then the last letter of every (45:32):
undefined

Speaker1: word and then permute those and create a name out of them. (45:37):
undefined

Speaker1: And like, that's really easy to do in that direction, but it's pretty hard for (45:40):
undefined

Speaker1: me as a like modern reader to decrypt the other direction. (45:45):
undefined

Speaker1: Right. So we've like, we wrote some computer programs to do it. Right. (45:49):
undefined

Speaker1: And like, we're doing a lot of that sophisticated decryption, (45:52):
undefined

Speaker1: But a lot of times Isaac, the scribe, he's made these marginal notes where he's (45:55):
undefined

Speaker1: like, oh, this has a he, but it should be like a v. Like he's making corrections. (45:59):
undefined

Speaker1: And sometimes those corrections, like, let us know that even though we can't decrypt this, he could. (46:04):
undefined

Speaker1: Like he understood where this code was coming from because he's making corrections to it. (46:11):
undefined

Speaker0: Okay. Right. (46:15):
undefined

Speaker1: And sometimes those corrections are enough, like, information to help us decrypt it. (46:17):
undefined

Speaker1: Yeah. so like these yes there there are definitely like ongoing jewish traditions (46:21):
undefined

Speaker1: of salamanic magic and also like i'm jewish (46:26):
undefined

Speaker0: So like. (46:30):
undefined

Speaker1: And i'm working with other jews and like that's what it means for a kind of (46:31):
undefined

Speaker1: magic to be jewish is that it's like being done by jews but if your question is is there like a well (46:36):
undefined

Speaker0: The reason i'm asking is because just like that's basically why i exist well. (46:41):
undefined

Speaker1: That doesn't exist (46:45):
undefined

Speaker0: I well i definitely agree but i'm kind of like (46:46):
undefined

Speaker0: when we're talking about sources where people were copying hebrew they didn't (46:49):
undefined

Speaker0: even know the alphabet you know and it's basically it's it's kind of that simple (46:52):
undefined

Speaker0: that some if somebody wants to go back to something that was actually written (46:57):
undefined

Speaker0: within the context of actually understanding it as you're mentioning it you (47:00):
undefined

Speaker0: know if you're not if you're not understanding what you're doing because it's (47:04):
undefined

Speaker0: stripped out of context that you're not show. (47:07):
undefined

Speaker1: You we'll see if i have any to show you so like can i share my screen (47:08):
undefined

Speaker0: You yeah it won't will show up in the podcast but it will be on the youtube all. (47:16):
undefined

Speaker1: Right okay well let me show just like an example of okay and then maybe i'll (47:22):
undefined

Speaker1: just like oh no it says host disabled participant screen sharing okay (47:29):
undefined

Speaker0: So let's see how do i do that host tools it says uh okay there we go try now Okay. (47:33):
undefined

Speaker1: So like this is sort of what these heat, let me find a better example. (47:43):
undefined

Speaker1: Looks like a lot of words. Okay, so this is like a relatively bigger scene. (47:49):
undefined

Speaker1: Okay, so this is an example from Sephiroth. So first of all, (47:56):
undefined

Speaker1: if you're familiar with like Mather's Pentacles, like this is a familiar one. (48:00):
undefined

Speaker1: See how it has twice as many words on it (48:04):
undefined

Speaker1: or like another example that's (48:07):
undefined

Speaker1: like okay here's another one right so if people are familiar this one you can (48:11):
undefined

Speaker1: like if you're familiar with mother's tentacles like this is like visually you (48:15):
undefined

Speaker1: can tell this one but you can see how it has so many more words that's immediately (48:20):
undefined

Speaker1: an indication that even though this particular manuscript is newer (48:25):
undefined

Speaker1: than like some of the European manuscripts that Mathers was looking at, (48:30):
undefined

Speaker1: it probably has a much cleaner chain of transmission because you don't gain words. (48:34):
undefined

Speaker0: Well, the Hebrew looks a whole lot clearer also, even when it's written with Flora. (48:40):
undefined

Speaker0: Even when he's writing it with like calligraphy style Flora, it sure looks good. (48:46):
undefined

Speaker1: I mean, yeah, this guy's like his, this font is called Asherit or Assyrian script, (48:51):
undefined

Speaker1: like this like square rabbi font. (48:56):
undefined

Speaker1: And this guy clearly has like a very like this is isaac he (48:58):
undefined

Speaker1: has a very clean asherite script like (49:01):
undefined

Speaker1: he's got some like scribal training and then this (49:04):
undefined

Speaker1: is what his handwritten hebrew like this is hebrew handwriting like cursive (49:07):
undefined

Speaker1: hebrew which is oh that's cool his cursive (49:10):
undefined

Speaker1: handwriting could maybe use a little work i will say like his (49:13):
undefined

Speaker1: notes are sometimes a little hard to decrypt like doctor handwriting (49:16):
undefined

Speaker1: i mean i wouldn't go that far but it's you know (49:19):
undefined

Speaker1: it's hard and it's also you know cursive changes is (49:22):
undefined

Speaker1: a lot over time right so like if (49:25):
undefined

Speaker1: you're looking at english like handwriting from the (49:27):
undefined

Speaker1: 1700s it's a little hard to make out okay (49:30):
undefined

Speaker1: and this also but yes in particular like so this is this is almost certainly (49:33):
undefined

Speaker1: the same person right this is like his good scribe asharit handwriting and this (49:38):
undefined

Speaker1: is just his like normal hand and then this bleed through is just like from the (49:43):
undefined

Speaker1: back of the page but you You can see, like, this is, so this is a, (49:48):
undefined

Speaker1: this is presumably, like, we don't know, but my guess would be that this has (49:52):
undefined

Speaker1: a fully Hebrew chain of translation. (49:56):
undefined

Speaker1: Right from like whoever whoever i mean (50:00):
undefined

Speaker1: somebody invented this pentacle like some human being (50:03):
undefined

Speaker1: is the first human being who wrote this pentacle down and my (50:05):
undefined

Speaker1: guess would be that sephirah probably does have a completely hebrew chain of (50:08):
undefined

Speaker1: transmission that being said there are some reasons to suspect right that that's (50:13):
undefined

Speaker1: not a hundred percent true because sometimes in the in isaac's like like, commentary. (50:20):
undefined

Speaker1: So not the pentacle, but the, there are two kinds of commentary, (50:26):
undefined

Speaker1: right? There's a piece of commentary below that says, like, here's what this pentacle's for. (50:29):
undefined

Speaker1: And sometimes it says, like, you should make it on this kind of parchment with, (50:33):
undefined

Speaker1: like, a quill made from this kind of bird or, like, this herb. (50:36):
undefined

Speaker1: And when he does that, you know, Hebrew was not a spoken language for a long time. (50:41):
undefined

Speaker1: Like, it wasn't a colloquial everyday language. It's like a sacred liturgical (50:47):
undefined

Speaker1: language right so a lot of kinds of european (50:50):
undefined

Speaker1: animals there's not a good biblical hebrew (50:53):
undefined

Speaker1: word for them right so sometimes isaac will say like a biblical hebrew word (50:57):
undefined

Speaker1: right so he's talking about like a kind of parchment and he uses a biblical (51:02):
undefined

Speaker1: word that we've been translating as gazelle but like it really just means like (51:06):
undefined

Speaker1: something in that family but then in parentheses he will say or in the colloquial. (51:11):
undefined

Speaker1: And then he's trying to spell out some kind of romance language, (51:16):
undefined

Speaker1: but he's spelling it in Hebrew characters, right? (51:20):
undefined

Speaker1: So just like, how do you spell Hanukkah in English? There's a lot of ways to spell it. (51:21):
undefined

Speaker1: Well, that goes the other direction too, right? When you're trying to write (51:26):
undefined

Speaker1: romance languages in Hebrew. (51:29):
undefined

Speaker1: So we're not really, when he (51:30):
undefined

Speaker1: says in the colloquial, we have not yet identified what language that is. (51:32):
undefined

Speaker1: So a lot of times we can tell what word he means he means because romance languages (51:37):
undefined

Speaker1: are pretty similar it's not modern Spanish or modern Italian but it is certainly (51:41):
undefined

Speaker1: closely related to both of them it might be (51:49):
undefined

Speaker1: Okay, so here's an example. So just yesterday, he mentioned like an incense for one of them. (51:53):
undefined

Speaker1: And one of the ingredients is something that like I would transliterate into (51:57):
undefined

Speaker1: English as like P-I-N-O-K-I-A, Pinocchio. (52:02):
undefined

undefined

Speaker1: When I read it, I'm like, that sounds like Pinocchio. Like, you know, the guy with him. (52:10):
undefined

Speaker1: But Pinocchio, like that mythological character, Pinocchio, his name actually (52:14):
undefined

Speaker1: means pine nut in like this Tuscan dialect. (52:19):
undefined

Speaker0: And so, like. (52:23):
undefined

Speaker1: I actually think, and based on, like, I know a lot about incense. (52:23):
undefined

Speaker1: Like, I wrote a book on incense as well. (52:27):
undefined

Speaker0: Awesome. (52:28):
undefined

Speaker1: I actually think what he's talking about is pine resin. It literally means pine (52:28):
undefined

Speaker1: eye, the name Pinocchio. (52:33):
undefined

Speaker1: It means, like, pine, the tree, and then eye. (52:35):
undefined

Speaker1: I think he means pine resin. But, like, what language is he saying that in? (52:38):
undefined

Speaker1: We don't know. Now, I think my guess is like, I believe based on, (52:43):
undefined

Speaker1: I don't know, like based on all of those three roads, like some, (52:49):
undefined

Speaker1: this is like, I don't know, ghosts told me this. (52:54):
undefined

Speaker1: And some of it is like, I'm not a scholar, but like, I'm a nerd and I do a lot (52:57):
undefined

Speaker1: of reading. Like, I do know what I'm talking about. (53:00):
undefined

Speaker1: And I've talked to a lot of like linguistic experts. words. (53:02):
undefined

Speaker1: I think that the Pentacles probably originated in Sepharad, that is to say in (53:05):
undefined

Speaker1: Jewish communities in Muslim-controlled Iberia, probably in like the 12th century. (53:11):
undefined

Speaker1: Most people would say that they originated in Italy, in Northern Italy, (53:16):
undefined

Speaker1: in like the 1400s. I don't think that's true. (53:21):
undefined

Speaker1: But like, is this colloquial language that Isaac is using, (53:24):
undefined

Speaker1: is it Judeo-Spanish, labino is it some (53:28):
undefined

Speaker1: kind of like italian you know what we think of (53:31):
undefined

Speaker1: as modern italian is a very new language right and (53:34):
undefined

Speaker1: there's i mean even today in italy like there are a lot of regional dialects (53:37):
undefined

Speaker1: right so like is he using some kind of like quasi italian dialect is that the (53:41):
undefined

Speaker1: colloquial that would indicate that he is perhaps copying from an italian source don't know is he using (53:49):
undefined

Speaker1: Labino like judeo spanish don't know (53:56):
undefined

Speaker1: we we can't tell i i mean (53:59):
undefined

Speaker1: i've talked to some people who are more expert in historical romance languages (54:01):
undefined

Speaker1: than i am and they don't know either but there's only a couple of words so it's (54:05):
undefined

Speaker1: and almost all of them we can't identify what he's talking about okay because (54:09):
undefined

Speaker1: he also gives a hebrew word so we have a pretty good idea and then we have a (54:13):
undefined

Speaker1: word that is actually like pretty much the same in like modern spanish and modern (54:17):
undefined

Speaker1: italian so if you kind of sound it out. (54:21):
undefined

Speaker1: Like, let me think about how to say this. The differences in the way like Ladino (54:24):
undefined

Speaker1: and Spanish and Italian and variety of Italian dialects, the way they're written (54:28):
undefined

Speaker1: is sometimes more different than the way they sound. (54:32):
undefined

Speaker1: Sorry, I have that backwards, right? That like the way they sound is more different. (54:35):
undefined

Speaker1: Like when you're looking at them, you know, just like with all romance, (54:40):
undefined

Speaker1: I would just like, you know, one of them, you can kind of figure out what people (54:43):
undefined

Speaker1: are saying a lot of times, especially for things like plant and animal names, (54:46):
undefined

Speaker1: which is almost entirely the like scattered words of not Hebrew that are in this text. (54:49):
undefined

undefined

Speaker1: So that gives us some kind of indication of where this particular text came from. (54:55):
undefined

Speaker1: But we don't know. Isaac himself, he lives in Worms in Germany. (55:00):
undefined

Speaker1: The person he copied the manuscript from is in london you know is there (55:04):
undefined

Speaker0: Any chance of influence from the muslim world into that i mean as. (55:11):
undefined

Speaker1: I said like i believe that these pentacles originated in sephiroth in muslim controlled iberia okay (55:16):
undefined

Speaker0: But so from but from jewish from jewish people right not from not from. (55:21):
undefined

Speaker1: Hebrew and not arabic so to me that's a pretty good sign that they're probably Jewish or not. Right. (55:27):
undefined

Speaker0: That's kind of where I was wondering, because we hear about kind of influence (55:32):
undefined

Speaker0: from Sufism and on alchemy from that part of the world. (55:36):
undefined

Speaker0: And maybe we can get nowhere anywhere on that. Everything is influenced by everything else. (55:40):
undefined

Speaker1: Everything is influenced by everything it comes in contact with. (55:44):
undefined

Speaker1: That means that the pentacles are constructed out of Jewish holy texts in the Jewish holy language. (55:48):
undefined

Speaker1: So I'm skeptical that that was not done. To me, Right, right, (55:54):
undefined

Speaker0: Right. (55:58):
undefined

Speaker1: It seems like prima facie, (55:58):
undefined

Speaker0: They're probably Jewish. So do you think that there would have been, (55:59):
undefined

Speaker0: would that have been in secret or in contravention? If they're in Muslim countries, (56:02):
undefined

Speaker0: do you think that would have been a secret tradition? (56:06):
undefined

Speaker1: No, not at all. Not at all. Okay, it was tolerated. It was tolerated. (56:08):
undefined

Speaker1: It was tolerated and being a magician was like a relatively lucrative profession, including at court. (56:12):
undefined

Speaker1: The Muslim court in Al-Andalus routinely employed Jewish magicians. (56:19):
undefined

Speaker1: The idea that magic is illicit is pretty much a Christian thing. (56:26):
undefined

Speaker0: Although these days, I mean, you hear about there's an anti-witchcraft task (56:33):
undefined

Speaker0: force in Saudi Arabia right now. So I don't know if that's changed. (56:36):
undefined

Speaker1: Sure it has definitely changed and like these things come and go culturally but i mean (56:40):
undefined

Speaker1: yeah also you know as i was saying like witchcraft and magic (56:47):
undefined

Speaker1: you know for the most part it's craft when women do it like i mean i know that's (56:55):
undefined

Speaker1: really reductive but like it's it's not illegal for men to do magic in saudi arabia oh interesting (57:00):
undefined

Speaker0: Oh oh Oh, you mean currently? Yes. (57:06):
undefined

Speaker1: I mean, it is, but like, I mean, it's complicated. (57:09):
undefined

Speaker1: Like, we all know that laws only apply to poor and disenfranchised people. (57:13):
undefined

Speaker0: Yes. (57:18):
undefined

Speaker1: Like, we all know that rich people (57:19):
undefined

Speaker1: are above the law, and that is the fact everywhere in every culture and (57:22):
undefined

Speaker0: Every time period. (57:27):
undefined

Speaker1: In history. Like, that's just how power works. (57:28):
undefined

Speaker0: Yeah. (57:31):
undefined

Speaker1: But no, I know. No, I mean, like, no, magic is not illicit in Al-Andalus generally, (57:32):
undefined

Speaker1: like not in Muslim communities or in Jewish communities. (57:40):
undefined

Speaker1: Now, certain kinds of magic are, and everything's illicit when the sultan doesn't (57:42):
undefined

Speaker1: like you, you know. Gotcha. But no, not. (57:48):
undefined

Speaker0: Super interesting. Interesting. So walk us through what you personally, (57:52):
undefined

Speaker0: the grimoires that you personally worked through that you think have been the (57:57):
undefined

Speaker0: most, had the most oomph for fireworks or been the most interesting. (58:00):
undefined

Speaker1: Oh, I would say my favorite pentacle. So, you know, I worked, (58:04):
undefined

Speaker1: like I learned like most people my age, like the first pentacles I encountered (58:09):
undefined

Speaker1: were the Mathers pentacles. (58:13):
undefined

Speaker1: And I worked exclusively with them for decades before I even saw any other ones. Right. (58:15):
undefined

Speaker1: Which was the, I mean, which was the case for most people, right? (58:20):
undefined

Speaker1: Like, as I was saying, I started doing this in, like, the early 90s. (58:23):
undefined

Speaker1: So, like, I did not have access to, like, other manuscripts for decades, right? (58:26):
undefined

Speaker1: Because almost nobody did, right? (58:33):
undefined

Speaker1: So I'm going to talk sort of exclusively about the Mather's Pentacles, (58:36):
undefined

Speaker1: which is what my book is about, right? (58:40):
undefined

Speaker1: So my favorite is the one I call the all-knowing Godecagram. (58:41):
undefined

Speaker1: Let me screen share again. and then people can see the one I'm talking about. (58:47):
undefined

Speaker1: And then if you want, I will show you this one. Okay, so here we go. (58:52):
undefined

Speaker1: Share. Share. (58:59):
undefined

Speaker1: Okay, so this is my favorite of them. Mathers says that this is further proper (59:01):
undefined

Speaker1: to acquire understanding and knowledge of all things created and to seek out (59:06):
undefined

Speaker1: and penetrate into hidden things and to command those spirits which are called (59:10):
undefined

Speaker1: alatory to perform embassies. They obey very readily. (59:13):
undefined

Speaker1: So I love this one. First of all, I just think it's so beautiful. (59:17):
undefined

Speaker0: It is. (59:21):
undefined

Speaker1: I just think it's a really pretty one. Here's an interesting fact. (59:22):
undefined

Speaker1: So this one is in some ways a little different than some of the other pentacles. (59:26):
undefined

Speaker1: In ways that I could never quite put my finger on. But Isaac, (59:31):
undefined

Speaker1: in his manuscript in Sefer Ha'otot, this one says that he copied it from the book of the Ashupor, (59:35):
undefined

Speaker1: or the Ashuporim, which is a word that we don't know what that word is. (59:43):
undefined

Speaker1: We think, it's a confusing word for a lot of reasons. (59:48):
undefined

Speaker1: There's a word that's kind of like it in Torah once in the book of Daniel. (59:52):
undefined

Speaker1: In the book of Daniel, there's this passage that lists lists a bunch of (59:57):
undefined

Speaker1: kinds of magicians and there's a (01:00:00):
undefined

Speaker1: word in there that kind of sounds like that word that (01:00:03):
undefined

Speaker1: is probably related to a kind of like acadian exorcist (01:00:06):
undefined

Speaker1: but we don't know like but he says that this one came from a different book (01:00:10):
undefined

Speaker1: than the other ones which i find fascinating i didn't know that but i really (01:00:15):
undefined

Speaker1: love this one um i use it a lot for like this kind of work right so acquire (01:00:18):
undefined

Speaker1: understanding and knowledge of things created to seek out and penetrate into (01:00:23):
undefined

Speaker1: hidden things well i I feel like as like me personally, (01:00:26):
undefined

Speaker1: like seeking out and penetrating knowledge of hidden things. That's what I do. (01:00:29):
undefined

Speaker1: Like, that's my calling, right? Like these books that I'm writing, (01:00:33):
undefined

Speaker1: that's what I'm doing, right? I'm penetrating into hidden things and explaining (01:00:36):
undefined

Speaker1: them with understanding and knowledge. (01:00:39):
undefined

Speaker1: And I also used this one really extensively when I was in grad school studying mathematics. (01:00:41):
undefined

Speaker0: So would you say, I mean, how, what do you feel like it actually had an influence (01:00:46):
undefined

Speaker0: on you or it had an effect? Oh, yeah, absolutely. In what way? (01:00:53):
undefined

Speaker1: Way so I use it a couple different ways the first way I sometimes use it is (01:00:56):
undefined

Speaker1: sort of like a lens right so sometimes I draw it on like clear transparency and (01:01:00):
undefined

Speaker1: like plastic and lay it over top of like a problem I'm working on and kind of (01:01:06):
undefined

Speaker1: turn it until I get an insight. I like to use it that way. (01:01:10):
undefined

Speaker1: I drew this in orange paint marker on a black t-shirt and wore it in grad school all the time. (01:01:14):
undefined

Speaker1: I just, I do think, but I also, you can talk directly to sort of the spirit (01:01:21):
undefined

Speaker1: of the pentacle itself, right? (01:01:27):
undefined

Speaker1: And ask for a dream revelation, ask for like understanding. So this is my favorite one. (01:01:29):
undefined

Speaker1: I don't know that it's the one that provides like the most dramatic result that's so (01:01:34):
undefined

Speaker0: Cool though that's so cool. (01:01:39):
undefined

Speaker1: Yeah so that's that's right here if you want i will show you what this one looks (01:01:40):
undefined

Speaker1: like in so here is what this one looks like in sephiroth and you can say that (01:01:44):
undefined

Speaker1: this one actually is almost identical (01:01:52):
undefined

Speaker1: oh yeah yeah so more so than many of the other ones right let's see sephiroth says about this one (01:01:57):
undefined

Speaker1: The sign is helpful and good for wisdom and for understanding of all hidden (01:02:06):
undefined

Speaker1: things and to research hidden things. (01:02:10):
undefined

Speaker1: It is also good for commanding the spirits to go at commands, (01:02:11):
undefined

Speaker1: that is the flying spirits, and simply by using this seal they will listen to his words. Right? (01:02:14):
undefined

Speaker1: Yeah. And so here he says, and I copied it from the book of Ashpanosu. (01:02:20):
undefined

Speaker1: This word appears a couple of times in the text. (01:02:24):
undefined

Speaker1: Like it's also in the table of contents referring to this one where it is spelled (01:02:27):
undefined

Speaker1: differently, which is a sign to me that like he is trying to transliterate a (01:02:31):
undefined

Speaker1: word not in Hebrew into this word. (01:02:36):
undefined

Speaker0: Like he is also not familiar with the word. Gotcha. Right. (01:02:38):
undefined

Speaker1: And also in the table of context, it's like a grammatically weird where it's (01:02:41):
undefined

Speaker1: like plural and then pluralized again, like it's a plural word and then it's (01:02:45):
undefined

Speaker1: got a Hebrew plural ending on it. (01:02:50):
undefined

Speaker1: It's a straight week. It's clear that the scribe, either Isaac or the person (01:02:52):
undefined

Speaker1: he's copying from, it's not clear whether Isaac is saying he copied it from (01:02:57):
undefined

Speaker1: this other book or he's copying. (01:03:02):
undefined

Speaker1: Copying and the book he was looking at the judah perez (01:03:04):
undefined

Speaker1: copy like is saying that i've only (01:03:07):
undefined

Speaker1: isaac at many points in this text mentions that (01:03:10):
undefined

Speaker1: he personally has seen multiple copies of his (01:03:13):
undefined

Speaker1: manuscript so sometimes he says like well here's what (01:03:16):
undefined

Speaker1: it says in this one but in the other text it says blah blah blah okay right (01:03:18):
undefined

Speaker1: and sometimes he references other texts so there's also a thing where he says (01:03:23):
undefined

Speaker1: like i have also seen this in the in the book of the holy ari and the isaac (01:03:26):
undefined

Speaker1: loria yet right but this one is better than his that's in reference to the satyr square i think oh (01:03:30):
undefined

Speaker0: Yeah very famous. (01:03:36):
undefined

Speaker1: Yeah so like he's definitely seen many copies he's seen variations of all of (01:03:37):
undefined

Speaker1: these pentacles not all of them but many of them he mentions gotcha right so (01:03:45):
undefined

Speaker1: like there's a lot of interesting clues that way (01:03:49):
undefined

Speaker0: What would you say like the craziest thing that you did that you want you're (01:03:51):
undefined

Speaker0: comfortable sharing like the (01:03:55):
undefined

Speaker0: most out there result you got or with working with of Mather's Pentacles? (01:03:56):
undefined

Speaker1: So it's complicated because like I was saying, you know, as a magician, (01:04:00):
undefined

Speaker1: like when it matters, I'm never going to use just one kind of magic. (01:04:05):
undefined

Speaker1: Like I'm going to throw, I'm going to like homebrew a lot of different kinds. (01:04:09):
undefined

Speaker1: I would say that in some ways my most like dramatic results are probably healing results. So about (01:04:12):
undefined

Speaker1: Now, almost a year ago, right? Originally, right before Thanksgiving, (01:04:20):
undefined

Speaker1: I was given a preliminary diagnosis of leukemia. (01:04:24):
undefined

Speaker0: Oh, no. (01:04:27):
undefined

Speaker1: Yeah. Oh, spoiler alert. I do not have leukemia by the end of this story. (01:04:27):
undefined

Speaker0: Congratulations. Yeah, thank you. (01:04:31):
undefined

Speaker1: So I got, yeah, it was great. So I got a preliminary diagnosis, (01:04:33):
undefined

Speaker1: including like a genetic test and like a biopsy, right? (01:04:36):
undefined

Speaker1: Like these were, you know, you know, and I threw basically every kind of magic (01:04:41):
undefined

Speaker1: I had available at that, including a number of healing panicles, but other things too. (01:04:45):
undefined

Speaker1: And then, so I had another bone marrow biopsy, which I do not recommend. (01:04:51):
undefined

Speaker1: I don't know if you've ever had somebody drill a hole in your spine. (01:04:55):
undefined

Speaker1: Yeah, I don't recommend it. It's definitely really quite painful. (01:04:57):
undefined

Speaker1: And, you know, it takes a while for results to come back. I don't know how your (01:05:03):
undefined

Speaker1: doctoring works, but for me, we get online test results. (01:05:07):
undefined

Speaker1: We can see the results as soon as the doctor can. (01:05:10):
undefined

Speaker1: So there were these results that I didn't quite understand (01:05:13):
undefined

Speaker1: and i called like the the blood cancer center which is who they were from and (01:05:16):
undefined

Speaker1: my doctor and people were like ducking my calls like i couldn't get a doctor (01:05:23):
undefined

Speaker1: to answer me and so finally i'm there like so i finally have an appointment (01:05:26):
undefined

Speaker1: because you know like for not americans listening to this like it takes a long time to get a (01:05:30):
undefined

Speaker0: Doctor's appointment when. (01:05:35):
undefined

Speaker1: You're not rich (01:05:35):
undefined

Speaker0: It sucks yeah yeah it's one of the worst things it's it's a glaring. (01:05:36):
undefined

Speaker1: Error let me think about this the original diagnosis i got like a couple of (01:05:39):
undefined

Speaker1: days before thanksgiving (01:05:45):
undefined

Speaker1: and it was between christmas and (01:05:47):
undefined

Speaker1: new year's right i'm finally like so that's when i get these test results but (01:05:50):
undefined

Speaker1: nobody will talk to me about them like my doctor flat out he looked at them (01:05:53):
undefined

Speaker1: and he's like i cannot interpret this you need to talk to specialists and basically (01:05:58):
undefined

Speaker1: hung up which like i've never had happened okay right okay so i finally get in and i'm like sitting (01:06:02):
undefined

Speaker1: there in the Mario Lemieux Center of Excellence for Blood Cancer Research. (01:06:08):
undefined

Speaker1: And the doctor comes in and like opens my file. And you know, (01:06:14):
undefined

Speaker1: they don't even look at the file before they're in the room with you, I guess. (01:06:16):
undefined

Speaker1: Opened the file, looked at it, got like a look on her face. I was like, I'll be right back. (01:06:20):
undefined

Speaker1: Well, an hour later, the head of the blood cancer center comes back in with (01:06:24):
undefined

Speaker1: her and finally explains to me that I guess all your previous results were we're (01:06:30):
undefined

Speaker1: wrong like you seem fine and (01:06:35):
undefined

Speaker1: okay well done he has a mask on because we're still messy at that point and like (01:06:39):
undefined

Speaker1: At one point, I have to interrupt him like, hey, I'm a pretty good reader of (01:06:46):
undefined

Speaker1: people and like maybe a little mind-ready also. (01:06:50):
undefined

Speaker1: Like at one point, I had to interrupt him like, okay, the words you're saying (01:06:52):
undefined

Speaker1: sound good, but you seem unhappy. (01:06:55):
undefined

Speaker1: Like your tone does not seem good. And he's like, it's just so confusing. (01:06:59):
undefined

Speaker1: And I really wanted to be like, oh, bro, it's not you. Like I'm a magician. (01:07:03):
undefined

Speaker1: Like I really wanted to be like, oh, like, and finally, I was like, (01:07:07):
undefined

Speaker1: it's okay with me if I just had a miracle healing. Like, you don't have to be upset about cancer. (01:07:11):
undefined

Speaker1: Like, you seem sad that I don't have cancer. And that's when he, (01:07:17):
undefined

Speaker1: like, realized what he'd been doing. I'm like, oh, no, no, I'm so sorry. (01:07:20):
undefined

Speaker1: I just don't understand. Like, you know, everything looks great. You seem fine. (01:07:24):
undefined

Speaker1: Come back in three months for another test, which I did, and I'm still fine. (01:07:29):
undefined

Speaker1: So I would say that's like a pretty, I guess, dramatic result. (01:07:34):
undefined

Speaker1: But how dramatic is it? Do you know what I mean? Like maybe I just didn't have (01:07:39):
undefined

Speaker1: leukemia and the first test were wrong. (01:07:43):
undefined

Speaker1: Like that's what the doctor thinks is that like those sometimes (01:07:44):
undefined

Speaker0: It's best not to ask too many questions, you know, just roll with it. (01:07:47):
undefined

Speaker1: Here's a useful tip. So for me, I often ask, it's hard to get a doctor to like explain stuff to you. (01:07:50):
undefined

Speaker1: And it's pretty hard to explain to a doctor that you're a magician. (01:07:57):
undefined

Speaker1: So I oftentimes say like, if I was going to pray for a miracle, (01:08:01):
undefined

Speaker1: can you please describe to me in great detail the exact miracle I should be praying for? (01:08:05):
undefined

Speaker0: I love that. (01:08:10):
undefined

Speaker1: And I simply won't leave the office until they draw me some diagrams of exactly (01:08:11):
undefined

Speaker1: what it is that I need to have. (01:08:16):
undefined

Speaker1: So that is what I did. That's a good tip. Yeah. So I really pushed. (01:08:18):
undefined

Speaker1: And I got an explanation of the problem is my white blood cells are the wrong (01:08:23):
undefined

Speaker1: shape, blah, blah, blah. (01:08:27):
undefined

Speaker0: That's an extremely helpful. Thank you for sharing. That's an extremely helpful (01:08:28):
undefined

Speaker0: bit of information. Yeah. So that's, I think. (01:08:31):
undefined

Speaker1: The easiest way to frame it. And you have to push. They don't like to answer that question. (01:08:33):
undefined

Speaker0: Sure. (01:08:37):
undefined

Speaker1: But like they will answer that question if you just basically (01:08:37):
undefined

Speaker1: basically just play dumb. Like you don't understand why they won't explain it (01:08:42):
undefined

Speaker1: and just don't get up and leave. (01:08:46):
undefined

Speaker1: Like just sit there until they answer your question about like what miracle you should pray for. (01:08:48):
undefined

Speaker0: And that's, that's phenomenal. Magical advice. I love that. Yeah. (01:08:53):
undefined

Speaker0: So I think that's the best way. (01:08:56):
undefined

Speaker1: To do it. And I think like, look, obviously the best time to do healing magic is all the time. (01:08:57):
undefined

Speaker1: Like, you know, I have a friend who's really into like Tai Chi and healing magic (01:09:03):
undefined

Speaker1: and he would say like, Oh no, Sarah, the best time to healing magic is every day. (01:09:06):
undefined

Speaker1: Obviously that's true. but i am not (01:09:10):
undefined

Speaker1: doing that like i should yes be (01:09:13):
undefined

Speaker1: practicing like inner alchemy and tai chi (01:09:16):
undefined

Speaker1: every day but i'm not and i'm probably not going to but i think the time period (01:09:19):
undefined

Speaker1: between like an initial diagnosis and a like confirmatory diagnosis i think (01:09:24):
undefined

Speaker1: is a really ripe time for magic okay okay and i think also because it because (01:09:28):
undefined

Speaker1: it lets you target like exactly you know exactly what it is you need to have happen. (01:09:33):
undefined

Speaker1: Right. And so like, like I get the doctor explain it and then I do a lot of (01:09:39):
undefined

Speaker1: reading and I look at a lot of diagrams and I really like make sure I understand (01:09:43):
undefined

Speaker1: like exactly what it is that I want to have happen. (01:09:45):
undefined

Speaker1: Right. And so healing pentacles, I draw them directly on my body. (01:09:49):
undefined

Speaker1: Right. So, you know, leukemia is kind of systemic. (01:09:54):
undefined

Speaker1: Right. So, but like for an injury or something, I would draw (01:09:56):
undefined

Speaker1: it or get somebody else to draw it like directly on the skin with like a black (01:09:59):
undefined

Speaker1: sharpie marker i also so this is a really common jewish amulet technique you (01:10:03):
undefined

Speaker1: draw in like a water soluble ink and then you dissolve it into like water or (01:10:09):
undefined

Speaker1: wine and drink it as a way to infuse your whole body with a pentacle it's just like (01:10:13):
undefined

Speaker0: A common that's a cool one yeah it's. (01:10:18):
undefined

Speaker1: Just like a i mean probably other people too but like that's just a really common like jewish i've (01:10:20):
undefined

Speaker0: Never heard of that before that's a really that's really clever. (01:10:24):
undefined

Speaker1: Yeah and you could also like you know you just put it (01:10:26):
undefined

Speaker1: in the mirror like you just like make sure it's on your i know somehow in chaos (01:10:29):
undefined

Speaker1: magic people have gotten this idea that like the best way is to like do magic (01:10:34):
undefined

Speaker1: and then forget about it yes it's like i don't i think that's probably a misunderstanding like okay so (01:10:41):
undefined

Speaker0: Let's talk that's really interesting people let's talk about that because like (01:10:47):
undefined

Speaker0: i've actually been thinking about that a lot recently if that is always applicable (01:10:50):
undefined

Speaker0: in magic that's interesting this has been coming up for me recently so what (01:10:55):
undefined

Speaker0: are your thoughts on that. (01:10:58):
undefined

Speaker1: I mean it is bad to like (01:10:59):
undefined

Speaker1: okay so like lust for like when you cast magic there's a way where you can like (01:11:02):
undefined

Speaker1: anxiously mull it over that basically what happens is you keep grasping at it (01:11:08):
undefined

Speaker1: and yanking it back to you so your magic can never like get out into the world (01:11:13):
undefined

Speaker1: to do its work because you know you keep like pulling it back to yourself and that's bad (01:11:16):
undefined

Speaker1: I mean, I have had results from magic that I did and then forgot about, (01:11:24):
undefined

Speaker1: like straight up forgot about it. (01:11:29):
undefined

Speaker1: And then like years later, I was like going through old notebooks and I was (01:11:31):
undefined

Speaker1: like, oh, I totally forgot I did that spell. That spell worked fucking great. (01:11:34):
undefined

Speaker1: Like I got exactly right. So that does happen. But I've also had really good, I think, I don't know. (01:11:39):
undefined

Speaker1: I don't think, first of all, I think intending to forget things is a pretty (01:11:46):
undefined

Speaker1: dicey proposition. position, like, I think whether or not you forget something (01:11:51):
undefined

Speaker1: is, like, it's pretty hard to intentionally forget things. (01:11:55):
undefined

Speaker1: Even for me, and I'm very forgetful, right? (01:11:58):
undefined

Speaker1: Like, I think that that advice is probably intended to keep beginner, (01:12:01):
undefined

Speaker1: because for beginners, like, I teach a lot of beginner magic, right? (01:12:08):
undefined

Speaker1: And I think beginners, like, one of the most common mistakes I see is that, like, grasping. (01:12:12):
undefined

Speaker1: And I think that's really, like, that advice to forget the magic, (01:12:17):
undefined

Speaker1: I think Like, that's what people are saying not to do. (01:12:21):
undefined

Speaker1: Like, don't just anxiously mull about it and drag it back to you. (01:12:24):
undefined

Speaker0: That's interesting because there's a couple takes on that. (01:12:27):
undefined

Speaker0: I mean, like with the Lester result, if you look at that from the frame of, (01:12:30):
undefined

Speaker0: I love that you use the word grasping because that kind of gets it more Buddhist (01:12:33):
undefined

Speaker0: ways of working at things. But also…, (01:12:38):
undefined

Speaker0: Just in a more grounded sense, in a more down-to-earth sense or practical sense, (01:12:41):
undefined

Speaker0: if you're working with magic from the psychological model, I suppose that makes sense. (01:12:47):
undefined

Speaker0: If you're working with magic from, let's say, an energetic model, (01:12:53):
undefined

Speaker0: let's say you're doing planetary magic and you're pulling in energy that you (01:12:56):
undefined

Speaker0: want to go through your life. (01:13:00):
undefined

Speaker0: Let's just say for sake of argument, you're working with Jupiter energy. (01:13:03):
undefined

Speaker0: You use golden dawn magic, call in a bunch of jupiter energy to i don't know (01:13:06):
undefined

Speaker0: become more to ease your material circumstances, (01:13:11):
undefined

Speaker0: and then you do the chaos magic yeah yeah right okay let's just go for that (01:13:15):
undefined

Speaker0: right so then let's say you use the chaos magic way then you just forget it (01:13:20):
undefined

Speaker0: well it's like but you're trying to channel some energy through your life so (01:13:24):
undefined

Speaker0: don't you think you should maybe you should stay conscious of it so that it (01:13:27):
undefined

Speaker0: doesn't go haywire and you can direct it on an ongoing basis that's a philosophical question. (01:13:30):
undefined

Speaker1: I see question i think it's (01:13:34):
undefined

Speaker1: a practical question i think for beginners who are (01:13:37):
undefined

Speaker1: not very mentally disciplined like (01:13:41):
undefined

Speaker1: forgetting like it is good for them to do a single piece (01:13:44):
undefined

Speaker1: of magic that has a beginning and an end and then they're done and it's like (01:13:47):
undefined

Speaker1: wrapped up and sealed and they let go of it right because i think beginners (01:13:51):
undefined

Speaker1: are not very good at like remaining in a proper like magical state for long (01:13:56):
undefined

Speaker1: periods so like i think the biggest difference between beginner magic and it may be (01:14:02):
undefined

Speaker0: Bad for them to do that also. (01:14:05):
undefined

Speaker1: I mean i think it's bad for them because they're bad like i think if they were (01:14:07):
undefined

Speaker1: doing it right it wouldn't be bad for them i just think they're bad right but (01:14:11):
undefined

Speaker1: because it's a learned skill like i'm not throwing shade i'm just saying everybody's (01:14:15):
undefined

Speaker1: bad at everything when they start well (01:14:18):
undefined

Speaker0: It takes a while it takes time to capacitate yourself too let's put. (01:14:20):
undefined

Speaker1: It exactly exactly and so i think that like (01:14:22):
undefined

Speaker1: i think about it like so i used (01:14:25):
undefined

Speaker1: to teach math like before i quit to teach witchcraft i (01:14:28):
undefined

Speaker1: used to teach math that's great and the way you (01:14:31):
undefined

Speaker1: teach math is not always (01:14:34):
undefined

Speaker1: even when you're teaching very good students like even (01:14:37):
undefined

Speaker1: people who have a lot of natural mathematical talent and who are like give a (01:14:40):
undefined

Speaker1: shit and like are actually trying like the way i would teach them to solve a (01:14:44):
undefined

Speaker1: problem is not always the same way i would solve that problem right because (01:14:49):
undefined

Speaker1: it it's not like the way i would solve it now as a person with like a graduate degree in mathematics, (01:14:54):
undefined

Speaker1: like some mathematical maturity, (01:14:58):
undefined

Speaker1: we would say, and like mathematical intuition, like, you know, (01:15:02):
undefined

Speaker1: intuition is built out of experience, right? (01:15:05):
undefined

Speaker1: And so like the ways I would have solved it when I was a beginner, (01:15:07):
undefined

Speaker1: even though I was really good at it then too, like are not the same as the way I would do it now. (01:15:11):
undefined

Speaker1: And like, that's also true with magic, right? So like the ways I teach beginner's (01:15:17):
undefined

Speaker1: magic is not exactly the same way I would do it now. (01:15:20):
undefined

Speaker1: And I think the biggest difference, the ability to like hold what I would call (01:15:25):
undefined

Speaker1: magical space-time consciousness, (01:15:31):
undefined

Speaker1: like the ability to stay in that state for long periods of time, (01:15:33):
undefined

Speaker1: I think is the biggest like difference between beginner magicians and experienced magicians, right? (01:15:37):
undefined

Speaker1: Like I think beginner magicians can really honestly only hold that state for (01:15:42):
undefined

Speaker1: maybe like five or ten minutes at a time. (01:15:46):
undefined

Speaker1: Okay. And so when you construct spells for them, you have to construct them (01:15:48):
undefined

Speaker1: in such a way that like a lot of it can be done in like normal space-time consciousness. (01:15:52):
undefined

Speaker1: And then there's like a single. (01:15:56):
undefined

Speaker0: That's a good point. (01:15:58):
undefined

Speaker1: So like launching a sigil. Like the reason that's such a great method for beginners (01:15:58):
undefined

Speaker1: is because like you can do all of it in like your normal frame of consciousness. (01:16:03):
undefined

Speaker1: And then it's just the launching part that you have to do in that like special (01:16:07):
undefined

Speaker1: space-time consciousness. And then you're done. (01:16:12):
undefined

Speaker0: Right. (01:16:15):
undefined

Speaker1: And if you can only hold that state for brief periods of time, (01:16:15):
undefined

Speaker1: then I think it is important to have a clean ending that like, (01:16:19):
undefined

Speaker1: okay, the magic is done and now I'm not doing it anymore. (01:16:22):
undefined

Speaker1: Because otherwise you're going to mess it up by continuing to poke at it from (01:16:25):
undefined

Speaker1: your normal point of consciousness, you're going to fuck it up. (01:16:31):
undefined

Speaker1: But I think that that's really, so that's what I think. I think that a lot of (01:16:34):
undefined

Speaker1: magical instruction is aimed at beginners. (01:16:38):
undefined

Speaker0: That's probably true. That's probably true. (01:16:43):
undefined

Speaker1: As a teacher, I would never tell people, and then you should forget about it. Okay. (01:16:45):
undefined

Speaker1: Because I think that's just sloppy, lazy teaching. It's just a bad explanation. (01:16:49):
undefined

Speaker0: There's another point there also, which as far as I know, the fire and forget (01:16:53):
undefined

Speaker0: it method is just Austin Sparrow. (01:16:57):
undefined

Speaker0: And so people mix everything. Chaos Magic mixed Sparrow and Crowley and Golden Dawn. (01:16:59):
undefined

Speaker0: But if you're just, I don't think there's anything in the Golden Dawn tradition (01:17:06):
undefined

Speaker0: or the Grimoire traditions about forgetting what you're doing. (01:17:10):
undefined

Speaker0: I don't remember anything I don't think it's in there so to backward apply that (01:17:13):
undefined

Speaker0: from Sparrow to say that Sparrow actually discovered how it worked I mean maybe (01:17:18):
undefined

Speaker0: yes in one sense but also you're technically crossing streams and mixing systems (01:17:21):
undefined

Speaker0: if you use Sparrow's method I think. (01:17:27):
undefined

Speaker1: That's good I think mixing systems is good (01:17:29):
undefined

Speaker0: I just think. (01:17:31):
undefined

Speaker1: You should maybe know what you're doing (01:17:33):
undefined

Speaker0: I think of it a lot like cooking. (01:17:34):
undefined

Speaker1: Like if you don't know how to cook you should probably follow a recipe Yeah. But like... (01:17:36):
undefined

Speaker1: People who know how to cook, like, instead, you maybe look at a lot of similar (01:17:45):
undefined

Speaker1: recipes and look how they're different and how they're the same and sort of (01:17:49):
undefined

Speaker1: develop your own style, right? (01:17:52):
undefined

Speaker1: Like, I think I did it just the way. (01:17:54):
undefined

Speaker1: First, okay, I'm going to say something that, like, sometimes makes Grimoire Bros mad when I say it. (01:17:56):
undefined

Speaker0: Grimoire Bros? Yeah. I love that. (01:18:01):
undefined

Speaker1: The first thing is that the word grimoire, it means textbook. (01:18:03):
undefined

Speaker1: Like, it's etymologically related to the word grammar. It means textbook. (01:18:08):
undefined

Speaker1: That's what that word means. and like i did (01:18:12):
undefined

Speaker1: it exactly the way the textbook said to is like not the (01:18:15):
undefined

Speaker1: flex that grimoire bros think it is like those (01:18:18):
undefined

Speaker1: are textbooks for beginners and like like i was saying when i mean as a person (01:18:22):
undefined

Speaker1: who writes textbooks like i do encourage beginners to try it the way i wrote (01:18:26):
undefined

Speaker1: it right because it works like if you do it the way if you follow the instructions (01:18:31):
undefined

Speaker1: it should work right but i would (01:18:35):
undefined

Speaker1: never say that like you should just keep doing it exactly that (01:18:38):
undefined

Speaker1: way right i think that like you (01:18:41):
undefined

Speaker1: should make strings but you should like know what you're doing and (01:18:44):
undefined

Speaker1: that's what i was saying before about like i'm so grateful for that ritual magic (01:18:47):
undefined

Speaker1: like em butler first of all 10 years later i learned that em butler's first (01:18:51):
undefined

Speaker1: name was eliza marion butler and that like this book was written by a woman (01:18:56):
undefined

Speaker1: and that was also like amazing to me because i'd been in grimoire magic for (01:19:00):
undefined

Speaker1: a decade gate at that point. (01:19:04):
undefined

Speaker1: And I had never met another woman in that field. (01:19:04):
undefined

Speaker0: Has that changed or is it still pretty much the same? (01:19:07):
undefined

Speaker1: It is definitely getting better. Okay. Right. But it is still an issue. So I will say like (01:19:10):
undefined

Speaker1: I'm not going to name names, but like a hero of mine who I have since met and (01:19:17):
undefined

Speaker1: I actually know for a fact enjoys my work. (01:19:20):
undefined

Speaker1: Like I've talked week. It was exciting. Like, oh, so I noticed me like he was (01:19:22):
undefined

Speaker1: in an interview and somebody asked him like, oh, who are some people doing interesting (01:19:25):
undefined

Speaker1: work in grimoire tradition now? (01:19:29):
undefined

Speaker1: And he listed like six or seven names, most of whom honestly like are not doing (01:19:31):
undefined

Speaker1: anything very exciting. And like, they're not really doing much. (01:19:37):
undefined

Speaker1: Okay. Right. And then he was like, oh, and then there are the ladies. (01:19:40):
undefined

Speaker0: Oh, boy. (01:19:45):
undefined

Speaker1: And then he named me and he's like my work and then he named three other women (01:19:45):
undefined

Speaker1: without referencing what they did at all okay so like yeah it's definitely still an issue (01:19:49):
undefined

Speaker1: i will say when i first started writing i used to write under sl mastros because (01:19:54):
undefined

Speaker1: like people wouldn't take me seriously because i was a woman that's but now (01:19:59):
undefined

Speaker1: fuck them i just put my name on shit yeah yeah (01:20:03):
undefined

Speaker0: Yeah yeah so. (01:20:05):
undefined

Speaker1: Yes it's definitely still an issue and i love the (01:20:05):
undefined

Speaker0: Phrase grimoire bros i think there's probably a lot there's probably a lot of (01:20:08):
undefined

Speaker0: there's probably a lot of that on on on social media. (01:20:11):
undefined

Speaker1: Yeah i mean i think you know it's a you know people know exactly who i mean (01:20:14):
undefined

Speaker1: when i i mean i don't mean specific people but like we all know what a group (01:20:19):
undefined

Speaker1: right and that's how you know that it's an actual issue so there's (01:20:23):
undefined

Speaker0: Also like i i feel like there's a lot of kind of like aggressive aggressive (01:20:27):
undefined

Speaker0: purism with grimoire bros and saying kind of like you have to do this the right (01:20:30):
undefined

Speaker0: way or my way or the highway type type approach to it. (01:20:34):
undefined

Speaker1: I find that generally people who say you (01:20:37):
undefined

Speaker1: have to do it exactly the way the book says don't appear to have read (01:20:40):
undefined

Speaker1: that book because like actually the (01:20:43):
undefined

Speaker1: book you're talking about does not give complete instructions like you could (01:20:46):
undefined

Speaker1: not like actually its instructions don't work and i don't mean like the magic (01:20:49):
undefined

Speaker1: doesn't work i mean like if you read it carefully like what was the north one (01:20:53):
undefined

Speaker1: paragraph ago is now the east like like just the physical like if you had even (01:20:58):
undefined

Speaker1: attempted to do the magic in that book you would find out that But like the way it has you do it, (01:21:03):
undefined

Speaker1: you have to put your hand through the candle flame. (01:21:07):
undefined

Speaker1: Like it just doesn't it. It clearly like actually doesn't work. (01:21:11):
undefined

Speaker1: The instructions as given in a lot of these grimoires, like there's missing steps. So (01:21:15):
undefined

Speaker0: When you when. (01:21:21):
undefined

Speaker1: I read a book, I feel like you can actually really tell if the person has actually (01:21:22):
undefined

Speaker1: done the magic or not, because if they have, there'll be notes like you're going to need a towel. (01:21:28):
undefined

Speaker0: Right right open a. (01:21:33):
undefined

Speaker1: Window because this smells bad like (01:21:35):
undefined

Speaker0: You can tell. (01:21:38):
undefined

Speaker1: That they have like maybe some practical understanding of the actual physical (01:21:39):
undefined

Speaker1: like moving around in the space that is happening in a way that many books do not that's (01:21:42):
undefined

Speaker0: A good point where do you stand on the kind of continuum or the idea that as (01:21:49):
undefined

Speaker0: magicians become more advanced they stop needing tools rituals and procedures (01:21:54):
undefined

Speaker0: or because i find that i suppose that's true but often people can just end (01:21:57):
undefined

Speaker0: up going off into their own loopy mental state, thinking that everything they're doing is magic. (01:22:02):
undefined

Speaker0: And I'm curious where you kind of stand on that. (01:22:07):
undefined

Speaker1: Okay, so I think it's a lot of things. I think partly what I was saying before, right? That like, (01:22:10):
undefined

Speaker1: Beginners can't hold the mental state very long. (01:22:16):
undefined

Speaker1: And so like the tools and stuff are there in order to carry some of that burden. (01:22:20):
undefined

Speaker1: Like you can sort of, you can do it in phases. Like you first, you make a tool. (01:22:25):
undefined

Speaker1: First you take a, here's the very first spell I teach in Introduction to Witchcraft, right? (01:22:29):
undefined

Speaker1: By the way, new semester starting soon, if people are interested, (01:22:35):
undefined

Speaker1: right? The very first thing I teach is like a color candle spell. (01:22:37):
undefined

Speaker1: So you pick an intention, you pick a single color. (01:22:41):
undefined

Speaker1: And like, there's a lot, like I teach them, what colors mean (01:22:44):
undefined

Speaker1: what things and etc right and like you (01:22:47):
undefined

Speaker1: pick a color and then you charge up a candle with that color (01:22:50):
undefined

Speaker1: right and so why are we charging (01:22:52):
undefined

Speaker1: a candle it's because i don't believe in their ability to like (01:22:55):
undefined

Speaker1: move the energy and do the (01:22:59):
undefined

Speaker1: other stuff and write the petition all at the same time so we're going (01:23:02):
undefined

Speaker1: to do it in stages right okay and i think a lot of times the (01:23:04):
undefined

Speaker1: tools are for that like you can do it like they're a way to break (01:23:07):
undefined

Speaker1: down the magic into stages so that you know (01:23:10):
undefined

Speaker1: if you can only hold space time consciousness for like five minutes (01:23:13):
undefined

Speaker1: which is a very like respectable amount of time (01:23:16):
undefined

Speaker1: to be able to do it as a beginner right like that's (01:23:19):
undefined

Speaker1: good like you can do almost any magic in five minute chunks (01:23:22):
undefined

Speaker1: as long as you carefully plan it right then like the reason you're making tools (01:23:25):
undefined

Speaker1: and stuff is so that you don't have to do everything on the fly right that being (01:23:29):
undefined

Speaker1: said i mean so you know need is such a strong word like i think tools carry (01:23:36):
undefined

Speaker1: a lot of the magical burden. (01:23:41):
undefined

Speaker1: And I think if you're doing the same kind of magic over and over, (01:23:42):
undefined

Speaker1: Then even as an experienced person, I think, like, it pays, like, (01:23:46):
undefined

Speaker1: I love making tools and materia and stuff. (01:23:50):
undefined

Speaker1: I enjoy the process of making them, but I also like... I used to make and sell (01:23:53):
undefined

Speaker1: incense a lot, and I wrote a book on incense. (01:23:59):
undefined

Speaker1: If you make an incense for a particular thing, then you only have to do that once. (01:24:00):
undefined

Speaker1: And that is clearly better than having to fill a room up with a certain vibe (01:24:07):
undefined

Speaker1: every time you do the same kind of magic. I could just make the incense. (01:24:11):
undefined

Speaker0: That's a good way to look at it. I've never thought about it that way so it's (01:24:17):
undefined

Speaker0: kind of like bookmarked on demand for you. (01:24:20):
undefined

Speaker1: I mean i almost feel the opposite i feel like it's like saying an (01:24:22):
undefined

Speaker1: experienced carpenter just like hits the tree (01:24:25):
undefined

Speaker1: with his hand to make like no actually i think i think (01:24:27):
undefined

Speaker1: i think i like tools (01:24:30):
undefined

Speaker1: and i like special purposeful now that being (01:24:33):
undefined

Speaker1: said i don't actually use a lot of tools okay (01:24:37):
undefined

Speaker1: magic there are certain tools that i use (01:24:40):
undefined

Speaker1: all the time right but i think broadly the (01:24:43):
undefined

Speaker1: purpose of tools is that they make things easier if you (01:24:46):
undefined

Speaker1: don't believe that i encourage you to like i don't (01:24:49):
undefined

Speaker1: know like cut wood like my friend (01:24:52):
undefined

Speaker1: simon who i mentioned before who does like all the tai chi (01:24:55):
undefined

Speaker1: and kung fu sometimes he like eschews tools so like work in the garden and he'll (01:24:58):
undefined

Speaker1: like refuse to use tools and so he'll like dig up like bushes with his hands (01:25:02):
undefined

Speaker1: as like a kung fu practice and that's cool it makes your hands really strong (01:25:07):
undefined

Speaker1: but one time i was like well like he one time he like couldn't get something (01:25:11):
undefined

Speaker1: out I was like what if he used a stick (01:25:14):
undefined

Speaker1: that's like only a little and like even just using a stick to dig rapidly improved (01:25:16):
undefined

Speaker1: so I think you know like (01:25:22):
undefined

Speaker1: I was going to say, (01:25:25):
undefined

Speaker0: Kind of along those same lines, though, how do you feel about substances, (01:25:28):
undefined

Speaker0: particularly in historical context? (01:25:32):
undefined

Speaker0: I think Aaron Leach, I think it was Aaron Leach, wrote that book that was like (01:25:34):
undefined

Speaker0: Secrets of the Magical Gamores or something like that, where he kind of has (01:25:37):
undefined

Speaker0: the thesis that all these gamores came out of people using things like Datura (01:25:41):
undefined

Speaker0: and these kind of like ridiculous, (01:25:45):
undefined

Speaker0: you know, Belladonna, these kind of ridiculous medieval drugs. I don't know. (01:25:48):
undefined

Speaker1: Why that's ridiculous. I mean, I would not apply the word ridiculous. (01:25:52):
undefined

Speaker0: Well, no, no, no, not that. No, I'm not. Excuse me. Don't don't don't get me (01:25:55):
undefined

Speaker0: wrong. I'm not saying that that thesis is ridiculous. What I'm saying is that those ridiculous. (01:25:59):
undefined

Speaker1: On some particular points. But that's OK. (01:26:03):
undefined

Speaker0: I'm just saying that, like, for instance, specifically when you read the trip (01:26:05):
undefined

Speaker0: reports on things like the Torah on Irwid, it is that drug looks like something (01:26:08):
undefined

Speaker0: no one should ever touch. like it is a ridiculously dangerous. (01:26:12):
undefined

Speaker1: Drug i will say like but i don't in general i don't i mean even a cup of coffee (01:26:14):
undefined

Speaker1: or like someone else smoking a cigarette in my near vicinity is enough to make (01:26:20):
undefined

Speaker1: me i don't like stimulants i'm i've (01:26:24):
undefined

Speaker0: Read trip reports of datura that are like you know like i mean i've taken datura (01:26:27):
undefined

Speaker0: and i found it deeply unpleasant. (01:26:32):
undefined

Speaker1: But like again i'm bad at stimulants I (01:26:33):
undefined

Speaker0: Don't think anyone's good at detour oh. (01:26:39):
undefined

Speaker1: No I know many people who use detour wait (01:26:42):
undefined

Speaker0: Really because I read trip reports about it and it's like I ended up tripping (01:26:45):
undefined

Speaker0: for 24 hours and I ended up in the hospital with a catheter nobody. (01:26:49):
undefined

Speaker1: Goes to the internet and writes a review because they had a great time and now (01:26:53):
undefined

Speaker1: they're doing magic you go to the internet to complain because you didn't like (01:26:57):
undefined

Speaker1: I don't think that's it but I am not like let me okay let me preface all this (01:27:00):
undefined

Speaker1: by detour is a dangerous drum that you You should not fuck around with if you (01:27:05):
undefined

Speaker1: don't know what you're doing. (01:27:08):
undefined

Speaker0: Yeah. (01:27:09):
undefined

Speaker1: Two, you should not be like using drugs based on shit you read on the internet. (01:27:09):
undefined

Speaker1: Like, like all of that. I personally don't care for detour. Like I found it (01:27:15):
undefined

Speaker1: quite unpleasant high, but I also find caffeine and nicotine unpleasant highs as I am like. (01:27:20):
undefined

Speaker1: I don't, as you can perhaps tell from this interview, I do not need additional (01:27:28):
undefined

Speaker1: stimulants. Okay. Like I'm pretty stimulated. (01:27:32):
undefined

Speaker1: Like I'm a, I like the chill out drugs. Those are the ones. (01:27:35):
undefined

Speaker0: You're lucky. Yeah. Yeah. (01:27:38):
undefined

Speaker1: Yeah. I think if you like ground up my bones and snorted them, (01:27:39):
undefined

Speaker1: they'd be like a high quality stimulus. Like I'm pretty, pretty high energy. (01:27:42):
undefined

Speaker1: Very, very cool. As a person. (01:27:46):
undefined

Speaker1: Um, I mean, yeah, I do think that like historically there is a deep connection (01:27:48):
undefined

Speaker1: between amphigen use, like teacher plant use. okay so (01:27:52):
undefined

Speaker0: You think the more people were doing that in historical context that was. (01:27:56):
undefined

Speaker1: Part of it i kids please stop (01:27:59):
undefined

Speaker1: listening yeah i think all cool people experiment with drugs i (01:28:02):
undefined

Speaker1: think that like every i think that like the holy (01:28:05):
undefined

Speaker1: anointing oil in torah is like i know that i've noticed that christian torah (01:28:08):
undefined

Speaker1: translations sometimes take the plant like cannabis and pretend they don't know (01:28:15):
undefined

Speaker1: know what plant that is but i assure you it's cannabis what was it every h where (01:28:20):
undefined

Speaker0: Is it in the in the torah like where. (01:28:26):
undefined

Speaker1: Is it in the holy anointing oil and the holy temple incense there's recipes (01:28:27):
undefined

Speaker1: oh wow okay and they include a plant called cannibalism and we like pretend (01:28:31):
undefined

Speaker1: we don't know what plant that is but every ancient altar we dig up in israel (01:28:35):
undefined

Speaker1: is coated in hash red really (01:28:39):
undefined

Speaker1: yeah wow yeah yeah magicians use drugs like in every culture everywhere we're (01:28:41):
undefined

Speaker1: european magicians using drugs, I mean, they seem like (01:28:47):
undefined

Speaker1: they must be using unpleasant drugs because they seem like they're angry and violent. (01:28:50):
undefined

Speaker0: Yeah, I mean, Datura, psilocybin, henbane, belladonna, all that stuff. (01:28:53):
undefined

Speaker1: I would not characterize psilocybin as a mean, angry drug. (01:28:58):
undefined

Speaker0: Well, if you're already mean, fair enough, but if you're on Datura, (01:29:02):
undefined

Speaker0: too, who knows? I think the Vikings took it when. (01:29:05):
undefined

Speaker1: They did the berserker stuff. I personally found Datura quite unpleasant. Yeah. No, I do think that (01:29:08):
undefined

Speaker1: entheogens, which is a category of chemical but in this context we usually mean (01:29:15):
undefined

Speaker1: phytochemical like a plant chemical like entheogen means they put the god inside (01:29:20):
undefined

Speaker1: you so yeah i think i think that yes i think most magicians in most cultures (01:29:24):
undefined

Speaker1: throughout time and space are using (01:29:31):
undefined

Speaker0: Drugs okay yeah that's uh i guess i think i. (01:29:34):
undefined

Speaker1: Actually think that like if you look carefully so okay so one of the things (01:29:38):
undefined

Speaker1: i did in graduate school in mathematics was I had a professor who was studying, (01:29:42):
undefined

Speaker1: you know, when you, things that you're seeing, you can, like, (01:29:46):
undefined

Speaker1: see what a person is seeing by looking at, (01:29:54):
undefined

Speaker1: like, the way their visual cortex lights up. (01:29:58):
undefined

Speaker1: So, like, grossly over, right? And certain kinds of drugs produce certain character, (01:30:02):
undefined

Speaker1: I mean, every kind of drug produces these characteristic phenomena in the brain, right? (01:30:08):
undefined

Speaker1: But many categories of drugs, they also produce characteristic, (01:30:13):
undefined

Speaker1: like geometric things, right? So like... (01:30:17):
undefined

Speaker1: So psilocybin produces a characteristic geometry that looks like that. (01:30:22):
undefined

Speaker0: Like a four-leaf clover. (01:30:29):
undefined

Speaker1: Sort of, yeah. Okay. And if you look at art, you can watch that happen, right? (01:30:31):
undefined

Speaker1: So certain kinds of Mesoamerican art, you can see things that are labeled. (01:30:36):
undefined

Speaker0: You're talking about the geometry of the visualization? (01:30:40):
undefined

Speaker1: Yes, but that is also the geometry of what is happening (01:30:45):
undefined

Speaker0: In your brain. Wait, so are you serious? (01:30:48):
undefined

Speaker1: Those two things are related. (01:30:51):
undefined

Speaker0: So the geometry of what you're seeing, like the grid or whatever it is that (01:30:52):
undefined

Speaker0: you have, is the same as what it's doing in your brain? (01:30:56):
undefined

Speaker1: It's not the same, but if you're a good mathematician, you can translate from one to the other. (01:30:58):
undefined

Speaker0: Unbelievable. Oh, yeah. (01:31:03):
undefined

Speaker1: It's actually terrible. They're going to be able to read our minds with MRIs (01:31:05):
undefined

Speaker1: pretty soon. It's actually dystopian terribleness. (01:31:08):
undefined

Speaker0: Oh, boy. (01:31:11):
undefined

Speaker1: But yeah, that's a fact. (01:31:12):
undefined

Speaker0: Oh, geez. (01:31:14):
undefined

Speaker1: Yes, the geometry of a whole space. (01:31:15):
undefined

Speaker0: If they can't already. I mean, I think about things when I get ads for them on Instagram. (01:31:17):
undefined

Speaker1: I mean, I was in graduate school 20 years ago. (01:31:20):
undefined

Speaker0: Well, yeah, I mean, I will think about things and then I'll get an ad for it on Instagram. (01:31:22):
undefined

Speaker0: So and I'm sure I'm not the only one that's happened to. It's so fun. (01:31:28):
undefined

Speaker0: And that's either like their predictive AI is so good that it can seem like (01:31:32):
undefined

Speaker0: it's reading your mind or something like that's going on. I mean, who knows? (01:31:36):
undefined

Speaker1: It it it's super fucked up but yes you can yes the (01:31:40):
undefined

Speaker0: The characteristic visuals. (01:31:44):
undefined

Speaker1: Are related to things going on that is (01:31:46):
undefined

Speaker0: That is that is incredible and and you mentioned aztec because you know i've (01:31:49):
undefined

Speaker0: had lots of i'm sure as many probably people listening have i've had lots of (01:31:52):
undefined

Speaker0: experiences on psilocybin where i saw geometric aztec mayan temples opening (01:31:56):
undefined

Speaker0: up before me and i'm sitting in the middle of london notting hill in london (01:32:01):
undefined

Speaker0: not the amazon you know so it's like it's just If. (01:32:05):
undefined

Speaker1: You look at the carvings at Eleusis, there are flowers exactly like this that (01:32:08):
undefined

Speaker1: are usually interpolated as poppy flowers, but that's not what a poppy looks like. (01:32:15):
undefined

Speaker1: If you look at it, that is also a common (01:32:19):
undefined

Speaker0: Design motif there. That's amazing. (01:32:22):
undefined

Speaker1: In English, I guess we call them liberty cap mushrooms. There is a psilocybin (01:32:26):
undefined

Speaker1: endemic to Europe that we would call liberty cap. Yeah, I definitely think (01:32:30):
undefined

Speaker0: Those are the ones that I had. those are the ones that i was on at the time (01:32:35):
undefined

Speaker0: because they were legal in london. (01:32:38):
undefined

Speaker1: No you almost certainly had south american i i can almost guarantee that what (01:32:39):
undefined

Speaker0: Are the two different ones this was in. (01:32:45):
undefined

Speaker1: 2004 so magic mushrooms that you like buy today in the modern world are almost (01:32:47):
undefined

Speaker1: entirely psilocybin cubensis okay which is native to central and central america (01:32:53):
undefined

Speaker1: and like northern south america and elsewhere in the world when you buy like (01:32:59):
undefined

Speaker1: magic mushrooms that's That's what you're getting. (01:33:03):
undefined

Speaker0: I also had a bunch of mushrooms in Yorkshire in the middle that were possibly local. Well, you can. (01:33:05):
undefined

Speaker1: Buy pineapples in Yorkshire too, but did you pick them out of a field? (01:33:10):
undefined

Speaker0: Well, I don't know who picked them, but the feel on them was very like old English (01:33:13):
undefined

Speaker0: Lovecraftian dungeon feeling as opposed to Aztec. (01:33:17):
undefined

Speaker1: So Liberty Cat mushrooms are quite small, like maybe that big. (01:33:20):
undefined

Speaker0: Okay. These were dried, so I don't know. I don't know. (01:33:25):
undefined

Speaker1: If you bought them from a drug dealer, (01:33:29):
undefined

Speaker0: If you didn't- I didn't buy them. I wasn't the one that bought or produced whatever. (01:33:31):
undefined

Speaker1: I think you probably took psilocybin cubensis it's quite hard to like there's (01:33:35):
undefined

Speaker1: a lot of kinds of psilocybin but like for domestic for agricultural reasons so (01:33:41):
undefined

Speaker0: The liberty cap one where are those found where like where do those occur. (01:33:47):
undefined

Speaker1: They occur throughout Europe maybe the whole maybe North Africa but I'm not sure and that's (01:33:51):
undefined

Speaker0: Not it's not related to Amanita or. (01:33:59):
undefined

Speaker1: It is much more closely related to Psilocybin Cubensis, to like normal magic (01:34:02):
undefined

Speaker1: mushrooms, which are, you know, like any kind of agricultural product, (01:34:06):
undefined

Speaker1: right? Are domesticated. (01:34:10):
undefined

Speaker1: I mean, they're not a plant, but I'm going to talk about them as like mushrooms are not plants. (01:34:12):
undefined

Speaker1: But like, you know, just like we grow tomatoes, like you can also buy tomatoes (01:34:16):
undefined

Speaker1: in England, but those are also South American, Central America. (01:34:21):
undefined

Speaker0: Okay, I'm just curious. So I guess I've never heard of Liberty Cat mushrooms (01:34:25):
undefined

Speaker0: then. This is a new one for me. (01:34:28):
undefined

Speaker1: They're just, they're small. they're hard to domesticate they're (01:34:30):
undefined

Speaker1: hard to grow like they're not normally commercially grown so if you've (01:34:32):
undefined

Speaker1: taken them it's because somebody wandered through a field and (01:34:35):
undefined

Speaker1: pulled them out and they're quite small like they only get like yay big it doesn't (01:34:38):
undefined

Speaker1: matter i'm really going down like they're still psilocybin the experience of (01:34:43):
undefined

Speaker1: them is quite similar okay like they're they're like different varieties of (01:34:47):
undefined

Speaker1: tomato or like different varieties of apple but they're all (01:34:52):
undefined

Speaker1: like psilocybin mushrooms are all basically the same but i'm saying there is (01:34:56):
undefined

Speaker1: a native psilocybin to europe okay okay one thing i wanted to ask you about (01:35:00):
undefined

Speaker0: Too we're kind of coming to the end here but one thing i wanted to ask you (01:35:05):
undefined

Speaker0: about is john d so i wrote a book about john d and he you know the angels tell (01:35:07):
undefined

Speaker0: d and kelly very likely were on something like psilocybin i would guess they (01:35:13):
undefined

Speaker0: tell d and kelly that all of the grimoires are wrong and then give them corrected versions Which, (01:35:19):
undefined

Speaker0: in theory, is the Enochian corpus, what remains of it. (01:35:25):
undefined

Speaker0: And they're pretty clear on that point. I don't know if you've encountered that (01:35:29):
undefined

Speaker0: info before or if you have thoughts on it. (01:35:33):
undefined

Speaker1: I have. I mean, I'm certainly not a specialist in D, but I'm vaguely familiar (01:35:35):
undefined

Speaker1: with D and Enochian. I've never really done any Enochian work. (01:35:39):
undefined

Speaker0: Okay. Okay. (01:35:42):
undefined

Speaker0: What do you think about the claim that the historical grimoires are, (01:35:44):
undefined

Speaker0: you know, like basically the attitude the angels in what the angels say, (01:35:47):
undefined

Speaker0: whether it's valid or not, is these are people trying to trace something they don't understand. (01:35:52):
undefined

Speaker1: Yeah, that's what I think about. That's what I think about Western European (01:36:00):
undefined

Speaker1: Christian grimoires too. (01:36:03):
undefined

Speaker0: Okay, well, so it's kind of like, well, there you go, right? (01:36:05):
undefined

Speaker0: But that's kind of their, but then they give them the corrected versions, (01:36:08):
undefined

Speaker0: which are not in Hebrew, but Enochian. (01:36:11):
undefined

undefined

Speaker0: So I always kind of went with that. (01:36:14):
undefined

Speaker1: Here's what I will say about that. Like, again, I don't have a lot of experience (01:36:17):
undefined

Speaker1: with Enochian, so I can't say. (01:36:21):
undefined

Speaker1: I am not fluent in Hebrew, but my Hebrew is definitely better than my Enochian. (01:36:24):
undefined

Speaker1: And I would argue my Hebrew is probably better than really anybody's Enochian, (01:36:31):
undefined

Speaker1: which I do not believe to be a, as it exists today, like a natural language. (01:36:35):
undefined

Speaker1: Like, I don't think you can write poetry in Enochian. Am I wrong? (01:36:40):
undefined

Speaker0: Well you're well it's yes however the issue is just lack of words like there (01:36:43):
undefined

Speaker0: were there were not many words of the language recorded so it's not the language (01:36:51):
undefined

Speaker0: the language itself natural. (01:36:55):
undefined

Speaker1: Language but no one today can speak it naturally (01:36:56):
undefined

Speaker0: Well you can speak it and you can use what's there and you know donald laycock analyzed it but i mean it. (01:36:59):
undefined

Speaker1: Also doesn't have a fully coherent (01:37:06):
undefined

Speaker0: Grammar No, no, no, it does. Donald Laycock examined it and decided that it did. (01:37:08):
undefined

Speaker0: Yeah, this was in the 70s. Oh, interesting. There's just not very much of it. (01:37:13):
undefined

Speaker1: I mean, like, I don't know what, (01:37:18):
undefined

Speaker1: So here's what I will say. Like, I can't say if it's more or less effective (01:37:21):
undefined

Speaker1: as I have no real experience with it. (01:37:26):
undefined

Speaker1: Like, one, I am skeptical about the notion of, like, I don't believe in the (01:37:29):
undefined

Speaker1: existence of, like, a singular pure version of which everything else is corrupt. (01:37:34):
undefined

Speaker1: Like, I think human, I think magic is by its nature, like, mediated by humans, (01:37:41):
undefined

Speaker1: right? So as a human, I'm always bringing my own human shit to it. (01:37:47):
undefined

Speaker1: My goal is not to practice magic the way angels do, as I am not an angel. (01:37:53):
undefined

Speaker1: But also, I do not understand angels to be monolithic. (01:37:58):
undefined

Speaker1: Actually, my experience is that heaven seems like it's constantly at war with (01:38:02):
undefined

Speaker1: itself. War in heaven seems to be (01:38:06):
undefined

Speaker0: An ongoing thing. What do you mean by that? (01:38:08):
undefined

Speaker1: So I'm saying just because this one particular band of angels said something (01:38:09):
undefined

Speaker1: does not make it true, does not make it universally true. (01:38:14):
undefined

Speaker1: True like angels do not always agree with each other historically and (01:38:18):
undefined

Speaker1: mythologically my experience is that angels in particular and celestial creatures (01:38:22):
undefined

Speaker1: like creatures of the upper world more generally seem quite political and like (01:38:26):
undefined

Speaker1: there are a lot of complicated political factions going on that i as a human (01:38:31):
undefined

Speaker1: do not have access to so like i guess what i'm saying is like the fact The fact (01:38:35):
undefined

Speaker1: that angels told Dee that, (01:38:39):
undefined

Speaker1: even if I think that Dee and Kelly are giving a perfect transcription of what occurred, (01:38:41):
undefined

Speaker1: which I do not, and even if I think that they were not incorrect about anything that occurred, (01:38:49):
undefined

Speaker1: which I do not, I also do not generally understand angels to be particularly (01:38:56):
undefined

Speaker1: reliable narrators of truth. (01:39:02):
undefined

Speaker0: Are there historical or scriptural sources for that idea of factionality among angels? (01:39:04):
undefined

Speaker1: Yes. Like war in heaven? Yes, I think that's the primary mythology of the upper (01:39:10):
undefined

Speaker1: world. I think almost all cultures... (01:39:17):
undefined

Speaker0: From what sources? I'm talking about specifically within the Christian or Judaic (01:39:18):
undefined

Speaker0: tradition within scripture. (01:39:25):
undefined

Speaker0: Are there direct sources for that? (01:39:26):
undefined

Speaker1: Well, Jewish scripture doesn't really talk about angels at all. Okay. (01:39:30):
undefined

Speaker1: But the book of Job, for example, is pretty explicit about factions. (01:39:34):
undefined

Speaker1: Like the entire book of Job, right, is about multiple factions. (01:39:40):
undefined

Speaker0: Beyond the idea of God and Satan in competition for this one guy? (01:39:45):
undefined

Speaker1: Well, no, I mean that. Okay. (01:39:50):
undefined

Speaker0: But wouldn't that just be God and Satan, not bands of angels? (01:39:52):
undefined

Speaker1: Well, I, like most Jews, understand Satan to be an angel. (01:39:56):
undefined

Speaker1: Okay. And I would generally, (01:40:00):
undefined

Speaker1: like many traditional Jewish understandings, would generally understand like (01:40:05):
undefined

Speaker1: B'nai Elohim to be broadly. (01:40:11):
undefined

Speaker1: I mean, like angel is a complicated word that does not define like a specific (01:40:16):
undefined

Speaker1: category of being, particularly in English. (01:40:21):
undefined

Speaker0: How would you define it? (01:40:25):
undefined

Speaker1: What means messenger? Angelos means messenger. (01:40:27):
undefined

Speaker1: Are you asking me like, how do I think people decide what is and isn't an angel? (01:40:31):
undefined

Speaker1: No. I think if they like it, they call it an angel. And if they don't like it, (01:40:35):
undefined

Speaker1: they call it a demon. That's how I think most people distinguish between angels. (01:40:38):
undefined

Speaker0: So then if I'm reading between the lines on that, do you believe that when people (01:40:41):
undefined

Speaker0: have experiences of, as you said, higher realm beings, if the way that they (01:40:46):
undefined

Speaker0: categorize them is overlaid on something or is constructed out of cultural conditioning? (01:40:50):
undefined

Speaker1: I think that when we as humans categorize spirits, most of the time what we (01:40:56):
undefined

Speaker1: are talking about is not like an ontological category, like a species description. (01:41:02):
undefined

Speaker1: It's like a description of the relationship between the speaker and the spirit they are talking to. (01:41:07):
undefined

Speaker1: So like my gods are other people's devils. That's just like a fact, (01:41:13):
undefined

Speaker0: Right? (01:41:18):
undefined

Speaker1: That that's how people apply words to things. (01:41:20):
undefined

Speaker0: So then that suggests that if there's a perception of factionality among higher (01:41:22):
undefined

Speaker0: world beings that it is more or less the factionality of the people that are (01:41:27):
undefined

Speaker0: perceiving them on the ground rather than the beings themselves well. (01:41:31):
undefined

Speaker1: I don't know that it does imply that right i i think look here's what i think (01:41:35):
undefined

Speaker1: i think the nature of living on a spherical planet (01:41:41):
undefined

Speaker1: is that when we go down from anywhere on earth, we are going in the same direction. (01:41:45):
undefined

Speaker1: We are going toward a common center. (01:41:51):
undefined

Speaker1: But when we go up, we are going further and further away from each other. Where are you right now? (01:41:54):
undefined

Speaker0: Literally, I'm in Texas. (01:42:01):
undefined

Speaker1: Okay. So I'm in Pennsylvania. And if we go down, we're getting closer to each other. (01:42:04):
undefined

Speaker1: Like our paths are converging but when (01:42:09):
undefined

Speaker1: we go up our paths are diverging that's the (01:42:12):
undefined

Speaker1: nature of up and down on a spherical planet and that is my experience of the (01:42:15):
undefined

Speaker1: underworld and the upper world that underworld mythologies culturally across (01:42:20):
undefined

Speaker1: the planet are much more coherent and similar than upper world mythologies are (01:42:24):
undefined

Speaker1: right and i think like upper world mythologies are very I think war among the gods is a very, (01:42:29):
undefined

Speaker1: very common mythological theme in every culture. (01:42:35):
undefined

Speaker0: Yeah, it's absolutely a common theme. (01:42:40):
undefined

Speaker1: So that's all I'm saying. And that is also my experience of upper world deities. (01:42:43):
undefined

Speaker0: I was just curious about specific scriptural references to war, (01:42:47):
undefined

Speaker0: factionality among angels specifically within those specific traditions. (01:42:52):
undefined

Speaker1: I mean, again, Jewish scripture does not really talk about angels much at all. (01:42:57):
undefined

Speaker1: Sefer Razim definitely talks about angels as organized for war. (01:43:06):
undefined

Speaker1: It talks about them in battalions and legions and et cetera. (01:43:13):
undefined

Speaker1: And like that's a if angels are organized for war that implies a lot of war (01:43:17):
undefined

Speaker1: up there I guess I would say like that's all I'm saying (01:43:24):
undefined

Speaker0: War again doesn't specify war against who. (01:43:29):
undefined

Speaker1: I assume war against each other okay but I mean it seems to be war against it seems (01:43:32):
undefined

Speaker0: To but it could also be against demons or humans. (01:43:37):
undefined

Speaker1: Sure and (01:43:39):
undefined

Speaker0: It doesn't specify no okay. (01:43:41):
undefined

Speaker1: Again it doesn't specify by anything. Like, again, I mean, like, (01:43:44):
undefined

Speaker1: yeah so (01:43:50):
undefined

Speaker0: Open question on factionality then definitely interesting to think about I think (01:43:51):
undefined

Speaker0: we are coming to the end but this has been an amazingly interesting. (01:43:55):
undefined

Speaker1: Conversation I'm happy to talk more about this factionality thing I mean I think like (01:43:59):
undefined

Speaker1: I did not mean it to be some kind of like profound commentary (01:44:03):
undefined

Speaker1: on anything I'm just saying like the (01:44:07):
undefined

Speaker1: fact that some angels told D that I mean I don't (01:44:10):
undefined

Speaker1: even know what it would okay again I am not an expert on D at all so I'm just (01:44:14):
undefined

Speaker1: going to take you and your words that that's what those angels said yes but (01:44:18):
undefined

Speaker1: what i'm saying is like of course it's just a human corruption of something (01:44:22):
undefined

Speaker1: else that's what humans are yeah (01:44:28):
undefined

Speaker0: I think what. (01:44:33):
undefined

Speaker1: I'm saying is as a human my only access is to human things so well i think the (01:44:33):
undefined

Speaker1: language of the angels doesn't seem particularly useful to me as a human as (01:44:39):
undefined

Speaker1: i'm still gonna have to do it in my human body here on earth I (01:44:43):
undefined

Speaker0: Think that your point about human beings mediating magic and that actually being (01:44:48):
undefined

Speaker0: an inherent part of it is actually a really deep technical distinction that (01:44:53):
undefined

Speaker0: is really interesting to think. It's definitely an interesting thing to ask. (01:45:00):
undefined

Speaker0: It's like, is human, not just human agency, well, really, because really the (01:45:03):
undefined

Speaker0: question there is, how much is human agency either necessary or even possible? (01:45:08):
undefined

Speaker0: And different religions and philosophies have very, very different takes on that. (01:45:14):
undefined

Speaker0: And when it comes to magic, which is where the philosophy really hits the fan, the question is. (01:45:18):
undefined

Speaker1: Yeah is is (01:45:23):
undefined

Speaker0: Human are like are humans a distorting force or a creative and inherently an (01:45:25):
undefined

Speaker0: inherent creative part of the chain of being. (01:45:30):
undefined

Speaker1: I mean i would argue i don't know that i understand distinction between distortion (01:45:33):
undefined

Speaker1: and creation first of all okay but also from a jewish standpoint which is like (01:45:38):
undefined

Speaker1: you know from the context of solomonic magic right like that's the context Next, (01:45:43):
undefined

Speaker1: I work Solomonic magic in like there is no question that humans are intended (01:45:48):
undefined

Speaker1: as a creative force that like the power (01:45:52):
undefined

Speaker0: Of creation is handed over to you. That's kind of what I'm zeroing in on, (01:45:55):
undefined

Speaker0: because I think that depending on the different religions have different views of that. (01:46:00):
undefined

Speaker0: And that has a profound that manifests profoundly in the quality of people's (01:46:04):
undefined

Speaker0: lives, in my opinion. Yes. (01:46:09):
undefined

Speaker1: So in Judaism, I mean, I am very rare, you know, as we say in Judaism, (01:46:11):
undefined

Speaker1: like two Jews, three opinions. right it's not like it's not like say catholicism (01:46:15):
undefined

Speaker1: where there's like a hierarchy where somebody's speaking x cathedra like we don't have that but like (01:46:19):
undefined

Speaker0: That must be nice. (01:46:25):
undefined

Speaker1: I like it i mean like i i (01:46:26):
undefined

Speaker1: You know, Judaism is complicated and it's not primarily a religion. (01:46:30):
undefined

Speaker1: It's primarily a tribal identity that happens to have some religious whatnot. (01:46:33):
undefined

Speaker1: Right. But I mean, I do think that like the idea that that what it means to (01:46:38):
undefined

Speaker1: be created in the image of God is that like created with the capacity to create (01:46:44):
undefined

Speaker1: ex nihilo is pretty like mainstream Jewish teaching on the matter. (01:46:48):
undefined

Speaker1: And the idea that like the responsibility for creation is handed over to humans (01:46:52):
undefined

Speaker1: like that's a very again a very mainstream jewish (01:46:59):
undefined

Speaker0: Teaching yeah that is not. (01:47:03):
undefined

Speaker1: Almost everybody would agree with yeah (01:47:05):
undefined

Speaker0: And and i think it's see for me it's those little distinctions or those kind (01:47:07):
undefined

Speaker0: of meta narratives around magic that is where the true quote-unquote power is. (01:47:11):
undefined

Speaker1: That's i agree as (01:47:16):
undefined

Speaker0: Opposed to the actual procedures and that right there is such a profoundly different (01:47:18):
undefined

Speaker0: and i think better way of looking at things than but. (01:47:23):
undefined

Speaker1: My personal view on it doesn't really come (01:47:26):
undefined

Speaker1: out of judaism it comes out of mathematics right okay okay so like i spent many (01:47:29):
undefined

Speaker1: i spent easily a decade in like specialized training in like building an intuition (01:47:35):
undefined

Speaker1: for you know so my mathematical medical specialty was something called analytic topology, (01:47:42):
undefined

Speaker1: which like might as well mean like weird, fancy geometry. Okay. (01:47:48):
undefined

Speaker0: Right. Sounds cool. (01:47:53):
undefined

Speaker1: And it's, I liked it. (01:47:54):
undefined

Speaker1: I liked it. I mean, in particular, my specialty is small cardinal theory, (01:47:56):
undefined

Speaker1: a kind of mathematics that has a reputation for driving (01:47:59):
undefined

Speaker0: People mad or trying to get them to do this, which is why I picked it. (01:48:01):
undefined

Speaker1: I mean, I didn't exactly look for that. (01:48:05):
undefined

Speaker0: That's great. That's really funny. (01:48:07):
undefined

Speaker1: I like it. It's cool. That's great. That's wonderful. But, like, (01:48:08):
undefined

Speaker1: you know, a lot of our geometric intuitions about the world are simply false. (01:48:10):
undefined

Speaker1: Like the fact that like we experience the world as having only three spatial (01:48:18):
undefined

Speaker1: dimensions like that's not a fact about the world it's a fact about human anatomy (01:48:24):
undefined

Speaker1: and i spent a long time building (01:48:29):
undefined

Speaker1: intuitions in spaces that aren't that that aren't (01:48:33):
undefined

Speaker1: three dimensions that might be infinite dimensional where like in as (01:48:36):
undefined

Speaker1: much as there are dimensions they're not even perpendicular to each (01:48:40):
undefined

Speaker1: other like my specialty is something called a non-metrizable topology (01:48:43):
undefined

Speaker1: that is to say it's a kind of a space where (01:48:46):
undefined

Speaker1: like you can say whether things are near to each other or not (01:48:49):
undefined

Speaker1: but you can't there's no coherent way to measure a distance and (01:48:52):
undefined

Speaker1: so like that's what i mean when i say like magic is mediated as a human right (01:48:57):
undefined

Speaker1: so like i do have like i i do have profound experience in infinite dimensional (01:49:02):
undefined

Speaker1: spaces like i'm not tooting my own horn but more so than almost all (01:49:09):
undefined

Speaker1: humans on planet earth i have a much more sophisticated i mean i'm just saying (01:49:13):
undefined

Speaker1: i spent a lot i mean and even relative to other mathematicians i was particularly (01:49:17):
undefined

Speaker1: good at this particular piece that's (01:49:21):
undefined

Speaker0: Good okay that's very unique. (01:49:23):
undefined

Speaker1: I mean i guess like everybody brings their own shit to like my bff the girl (01:49:24):
undefined

Speaker1: i met in girl scouts and first learned magic with is now a professor of botanical (01:49:28):
undefined

Speaker1: medicine so like she has a very profound understanding of like (01:49:33):
undefined

Speaker1: plant medicine that I will never have. (01:49:37):
undefined

Speaker0: That's amazing. (01:49:39):
undefined

Speaker1: Like that is rooted in like a phytochemical. I bet you have fascinating conversations though. (01:49:40):
undefined

undefined

Speaker1: Right. Well, we came up together. (01:49:45):
undefined

Speaker1: So I often get asked like what advice for beginner magicians. (01:49:48):
undefined

Speaker1: And my singular piece of advice is to get a co-magician. (01:49:52):
undefined

Speaker1: Like a co-magician is more valuable than a teacher. (01:49:55):
undefined

Speaker1: It is more valuable than any book. And one of the reasons is because it forces (01:49:58):
undefined

Speaker1: you to like translate into someone else's point of view. (01:50:02):
undefined

Speaker1: And they will be like, no, Sarah, you're talking nonsense right now. (01:50:06):
undefined

Speaker0: Okay. (01:50:10):
undefined

Speaker1: Like it forces you to be able to like explain what the fuck you're talking about (01:50:11):
undefined

Speaker1: and translate into somebody else's like paradigm. time it shares (01:50:14):
undefined

Speaker0: The work too there's a lot of work in magic yeah exactly. (01:50:18):
undefined

Speaker1: And it also makes it also gives you even even two magicians (01:50:20):
undefined

Speaker1: like you don't need a big group but even one co-magician it (01:50:24):
undefined

Speaker1: lets you specialize labor during ritual so like one person could go really deep (01:50:26):
undefined

Speaker1: in trance yes in a way that would be like dangerous without yes i agree right (01:50:31):
undefined

Speaker1: so like i really think a co-magician is more valuable than anything else in (01:50:36):
undefined

Speaker1: magic like an actual in-person breathing the same air holding hands. (01:50:39):
undefined

Speaker0: I agree with that completely. I think that's great advice. (01:50:44):
undefined

Speaker1: Almost all experienced magicians agree with that, and yet beginners are like, (01:50:46):
undefined

Speaker1: oh, no, I don't need that. I'm just going to learn from books. No, no, no. (01:50:50):
undefined

Speaker0: I think you actually- Get a fucking co-magician. They don't even have to be good. (01:50:52):
undefined

Speaker1: You don't even really have to like them. (01:50:55):
undefined

Speaker0: Right. Well, it was also very clear from if you look at the older grimoires (01:50:57):
undefined

Speaker0: that, or specifically Dee, where you need a magician, you need an operator and a scryer. (01:51:01):
undefined

Speaker0: It's a two-person job at the least. And I think the best reason to- I generally encourage people. (01:51:05):
undefined

Speaker1: To switch roles. (01:51:10):
undefined

Speaker0: Oh, I agree. (01:51:11):
undefined

Speaker1: I think when one person's always a magician, one person's always a scarier, (01:51:12):
undefined

Speaker1: it sets up like an unhealthy power dynamic. (01:51:15):
undefined

Speaker0: I think that's also the best reason to join Magical Order, not to get involved (01:51:16):
undefined

Speaker0: in order politics, but to hopefully meet other people. (01:51:22):
undefined

Speaker0: You just need that one person in that group that you can work with. (01:51:25):
undefined

Speaker1: Yeah, and you don't really need them to work like the same style of magic as (01:51:29):
undefined

Speaker1: you. anyway so like working in mathematics gave me this really profound understanding (01:51:33):
undefined

Speaker1: that like I'm always having to like mediate the under like (01:51:38):
undefined

Speaker1: The reason I'm not that into something like Enochian or like the pure language (01:51:44):
undefined

Speaker1: of the angels is because I spent 20 years learning advanced mathematics. (01:51:47):
undefined

Speaker1: And I'm going to argue that if there is a pure uncut language of the angels, it's probably math. (01:51:51):
undefined

Speaker0: Well, John D would agree. (01:51:57):
undefined

Speaker1: D would agree. (01:51:59):
undefined

Speaker0: That's what he says in his introduction to Euclid's elements. (01:52:00):
undefined

Speaker0: And I think it's hard to argue with. So like, why would I be learning. (01:52:03):
undefined

Speaker1: Enochian when I could be learning 21st century mathematics instead? (01:52:05):
undefined

Speaker1: That's my feeling on the matter. But I don't mean that in like a shitty way. (01:52:08):
undefined

Speaker1: I'm just saying personally, when I want. (01:52:11):
undefined

Speaker1: That's why I got into mathematics. It's because I was sold on the idea that (01:52:14):
undefined

Speaker1: mathematics was the underlying language in which the cosmos was written. (01:52:19):
undefined

Speaker0: Have you found that to be true? You're satisfied with? (01:52:24):
undefined

Speaker1: It's complicated. What I would say is that mathematics is in some ways the best (01:52:27):
undefined

Speaker1: way that humans have to understand the grammar (01:52:33):
undefined

Speaker1: in which the light the world is written but not really the vocabulary like mathematics (01:52:36):
undefined

Speaker1: i understand mathematics to be purely a priori to exist like that it's the universe (01:52:41):
undefined

Speaker1: it's physics and then if you subtract out the universe like actual creation (01:52:46):
undefined

Speaker1: what you are left with is mathematics is the way we sometimes (01:52:52):
undefined

Speaker0: Say it okay okay so. (01:52:55):
undefined

Speaker1: Like i i don't regret studying math like i got into mathematics for dumb reasons (01:52:57):
undefined

Speaker1: like i got into mathematics to learn the secrets of the (01:53:02):
undefined

Speaker1: universe and also to prove i was as smart as a boy and i (01:53:04):
undefined

Speaker1: succeeded i feel like in both of those (01:53:07):
undefined

Speaker1: things smarter yeah yeah it turns out which (01:53:10):
undefined

Speaker1: is actually like a little sad like i (01:53:13):
undefined

Speaker1: got into something based purely on internalized misogyny (01:53:16):
undefined

Speaker1: and if i'd been bad at it i wouldn't have done that for 20 years which is like (01:53:20):
undefined

Speaker1: not psychologically healthy reason to be doing things i guess like it was not (01:53:24):
undefined

Speaker1: good for me but i mean i don't regret having studied mathematics and i did i (01:53:28):
undefined

Speaker1: do feel I feel like I know what it is to taste the pure, (01:53:33):
undefined

Speaker1: uncut, cosmic heroine of creation, and I liked it. (01:53:37):
undefined

Speaker0: That's what Enochian can be like, for sure. It's very mathematical. (01:53:43):
undefined

Speaker1: I guess what I'm saying is Enochian seems like, first of all, centuries out of date. (01:53:47):
undefined

Speaker1: And also developed by two random dudes who were probably high on Datora. (01:53:53):
undefined

Speaker1: But instead, I guess what I'm saying is for me, I've never bothered to learn (01:53:58):
undefined

Speaker1: Enochian because I already learned calculus and that seems vastly superior. (01:54:03):
undefined

Speaker0: Okay. (01:54:07):
undefined

Speaker1: But I already learned that. So I think for everybody, like whatever it is that (01:54:08):
undefined

Speaker1: you're passionate about, like you can build your magic out of that. (01:54:13):
undefined

Speaker1: So if you're a musician, you should be building your mathematic or you should (01:54:16):
undefined

Speaker1: be building your magic out of that music. (01:54:20):
undefined

Speaker1: Like if you're a dancer, you like, you know what I mean? I would say my BFF Simon, right? (01:54:21):
undefined

Speaker1: Who's a martial artist and his magic is really built out of that sort of sophisticated (01:54:26):
undefined

Speaker1: understanding of movement and internal alchemy. (01:54:31):
undefined

Speaker1: Me and like I can watch him do it but I can't really do that the same way that (01:54:34):
undefined

Speaker1: like when I do my math magic he can't really do that like he can watch me do (01:54:39):
undefined

Speaker1: it and kind of understand but I think for all of us like everything you learn (01:54:44):
undefined

Speaker1: Nothing you ever learn will diminish you. Every single thing you learn makes (01:54:49):
undefined

Speaker1: you better at literally everything. (01:54:54):
undefined

Speaker1: And so as magicians, I think it's important to bring those insights to the table. (01:54:56):
undefined

Speaker1: And I also think that's why it's good to have co-magicians who have different (01:55:01):
undefined

Speaker1: things to bring to the table than you. (01:55:06):
undefined

Speaker0: Yeah, absolutely. (01:55:08):
undefined

Speaker1: But what I was saying about math is like, I know what it is to build a geometric (01:55:09):
undefined

Speaker1: intuition in a space that my human body and my human neuroarchitecture, (01:55:15):
undefined

Speaker1: like I cannot visualize eight dimensions and neither can any other human because (01:55:21):
undefined

Speaker1: the architecture of our visual cortex will not support that. (01:55:26):
undefined

Speaker1: But I do have a profound understanding of those spaces, and I have a vocabulary (01:55:30):
undefined

Speaker1: for talking about those spaces. (01:55:37):
undefined

Speaker1: Now it's a vocabulary that like only another, I don't know, 20,000 people on (01:55:38):
undefined

Speaker1: Earth speak because it's like, you know, it took me, you know, (01:55:43):
undefined

Speaker1: it took like PhD training in mathematics to build that vocabulary. (01:55:46):
undefined

Speaker0: I can only imagine. (01:55:50):
undefined

Speaker1: And that's what I mean about like, Enochian just doesn't seem like a rich enough (01:55:51):
undefined

Speaker1: vocabulary to say a lot of meaningful stuff in. well (01:55:55):
undefined

Speaker0: You must be in some extremely interesting mental space if enochian is not complex (01:55:59):
undefined

Speaker0: enough for you i gotta love that well. (01:56:04):
undefined

Speaker1: No but i mean like can you could you describe to me in enochian any normal human (01:56:06):
undefined

Speaker1: activity you you can't right you just don't i mean it's not for that (01:56:12):
undefined

Speaker0: It's not really for that. (01:56:16):
undefined

Speaker1: Okay but like what i'm saying is if it can't describe normal like (01:56:17):
undefined

Speaker1: it has to be for that and it's what i was remember (01:56:20):
undefined

Speaker1: what i was saying about how isaac is struggling to (01:56:23):
undefined

Speaker1: describe certain kinds of magic in biblical hebrew because he doesn't have the (01:56:27):
undefined

Speaker1: language for it so he resorts it's that's exactly what i'm saying about enochian (01:56:31):
undefined

Speaker1: and enochian has this even like even less words than biblical hebrew does right (01:56:34):
undefined

Speaker1: and that seems like it's gonna be a problem and mathematics similarly (01:56:40):
undefined

Speaker1: There is always this tension. So something that we're taught in mathematics, (01:56:45):
undefined

Speaker1: but also like it really arises from philosophy of language is that there's this (01:56:48):
undefined

Speaker1: tension that language does different things. (01:56:53):
undefined

Speaker1: And on one end of this spectrum, you have precision, your ability to say exactly what you fucking mean. (01:56:55):
undefined

Speaker1: And on the other hand, you have expressive power, your ability to talk about lots of stuff. (01:57:01):
undefined

Speaker1: And like interpretive dance has a ton of like expressive power. (01:57:07):
undefined

Speaker1: Like you can move people to tears with it very easily. (01:57:12):
undefined

Speaker1: But it doesn't have a lot of precision and like (01:57:15):
undefined

Speaker1: pure mathematics has a lot of precision but not a (01:57:18):
undefined

Speaker1: lot of expressive like okay i can't really talk about most stuff in mathematics (01:57:21):
undefined

Speaker1: because it doesn't have any vocabulary and that's what i mean about it being (01:57:25):
undefined

Speaker1: a grammar but not really a language interesting and what i'm saying is natural (01:57:29):
undefined

Speaker1: language like natural human language and i believe that humans are better at (01:57:33):
undefined

Speaker1: language than any other creature sure (01:57:37):
undefined

Speaker0: I think I. (01:57:41):
undefined

Speaker1: Think humans, no, but I don't mean other embodied creatures. (01:57:41):
undefined

Speaker1: I mean, humans are better at language than angels are. Humans are better at (01:57:44):
undefined

Speaker1: language. Like, that's the human facility. (01:57:47):
undefined

Speaker1: Like, what it is to be human is, like, we have this creative flexibility with language, right? (01:57:50):
undefined

Speaker1: And I think there's always this tension between expressive power and precision. (01:57:57):
undefined

Speaker1: And my understanding of Enochian, which is based on, like, nothing. (01:58:02):
undefined

Speaker1: Like, I have, like, a Wikipedia-level understanding of Enochian. (01:58:06):
undefined

Speaker1: So I keep trying to say I'm not an expert. So maybe I'm just talking crack. (01:58:09):
undefined

Speaker1: But I don't think Enochian has as much expressive power as English poetry. (01:58:13):
undefined

Speaker1: And I also don't think it has as much precision as pure mathematics. (01:58:18):
undefined

Speaker1: And I can already write poetry and do mathematics. So what is the value of Enochian? (01:58:22):
undefined

Speaker1: What can I do in Enochian that I can't do in some other language? (01:58:26):
undefined

Speaker0: Well, Enochian is for opening up mental, for magical spaces, (01:58:31):
undefined

Speaker0: not for communicating communicating with with with others or writing poetry (01:58:34):
undefined

Speaker0: so i would say that my recommendation i would. (01:58:38):
undefined

Speaker1: Argue that poetry is also for opening up magical sure yeah (01:58:41):
undefined

Speaker0: Sure enochian's real damn effective i i i'm sure. (01:58:43):
undefined

Speaker1: It is and i'm happy to learn it like i like (01:58:47):
undefined

Speaker0: Well i recommend just as an experiment just as an experiment try opening the (01:58:49):
undefined

Speaker0: 30th either and seeing that you think it's a real simple it'll take you you (01:58:53):
undefined

Speaker0: know like an hour max or half an hour here's. (01:58:57):
undefined

Speaker1: Another thing that I will say about, again, not knowing much about Enochian. (01:59:00):
undefined

Speaker1: I think particularly in the 21st century, we have this, we sometimes think about (01:59:05):
undefined

Speaker1: writing as like a primal form of language. (01:59:11):
undefined

Speaker1: But in its essence, like language is a shape you make out of breath, right? (01:59:13):
undefined

Speaker1: And so I think that like making certain shapes with your breath produces physiological (01:59:19):
undefined

Speaker1: things that happen in your body. And (01:59:24):
undefined

Speaker1: also produces like changes in consciousness and i have certainly heard tell that it does that very (01:59:28):
undefined

Speaker0: Yeah in the same way that tibetan chanting would right i'm saying like in tibetan. (01:59:35):
undefined

Speaker1: I could do that and also i have all that expressive power and all that precision (01:59:41):
undefined

Speaker0: Oh you know but i'm not. (01:59:47):
undefined

Speaker1: Opposed to i'm not arguing against an okie (01:59:48):
undefined

Speaker0: There's like 30 you know it's like you can do things in 30 different computer (01:59:50):
undefined

Speaker0: languages and they all have slightly different ways of doing it one's not necessarily (01:59:53):
undefined

Speaker0: but some are better for other tasks than others and some aren't right and i guess. (01:59:57):
undefined

Speaker1: So that's what i'm asking like what is enochian particularly good for (02:00:02):
undefined

Speaker0: Uh doing enochian magic and opening doing the enochian system opening up the (02:00:05):
undefined

Speaker0: enochian aylers far more effective (02:00:09):
undefined

Speaker0: than golden dawn magic in my and and that's that's another one like. (02:00:12):
undefined

Speaker1: The shit i learned from trees and fairy tales was more effective okay like i (02:00:15):
undefined

Speaker1: don't find golden dawn magic particularly effective i mean i i got no beef with (02:00:19):
undefined

Speaker1: the golden dawn i think they produced a lot of cool things i think they did (02:00:23):
undefined

Speaker1: a lot of of important work but i mean in terms of magic qua magic i do not find (02:00:27):
undefined

Speaker1: their magic especially effective (02:00:32):
undefined

Speaker0: Well so my my only you know if you're curious i just recommend trying to open (02:00:33):
undefined

Speaker0: the 30th either it's very simple you can get londa kett's books can we. (02:00:37):
undefined

Speaker1: Do it right now (02:00:42):
undefined

Speaker0: No because i got to go to the gym but uh yeah but but this was next time absolutely (02:00:43):
undefined

Speaker0: this was a great interview i learned a lot i learned a lot i learned and i really (02:00:49):
undefined

Speaker0: i really appreciate your take on things and I think you're a brilliant, (02:00:54):
undefined

Speaker0: you're a brilliant person. (02:00:58):
undefined

Speaker0: And I think that people will of course agree with me listening to this and where (02:01:00):
undefined

Speaker0: can people get your books? (02:01:04):
undefined

Speaker0: And I guess you teach, you teach classes as well. So, yeah. (02:01:05):
undefined

Speaker1: So let me, okay. So let me take like two minutes and do like some shameless advertising. (02:01:09):
undefined

Speaker1: I've got basically three books out sorcery of Solomon, which is all about the (02:01:13):
undefined

Speaker1: Mathers Pentacles, Orphic Hymns Grimoire, which is about the Orphic Hymns. (02:01:19):
undefined

Speaker1: So both of those are essentially what i think (02:01:23):
undefined

Speaker1: of as like translation magic so i am taking like (02:01:26):
undefined

Speaker1: a historical piece of magic that is not in english and reworking (02:01:30):
undefined

Speaker1: it into english for modern magicians and i'm (02:01:33):
undefined

Speaker1: trying to do that in a way that is like i explain everything i'm doing when (02:01:36):
undefined

Speaker1: like why i made the choices i made i also have a book called the big book of (02:01:41):
undefined

Speaker1: magical incense which i do not seem to have a copy of on my desk to show you (02:01:44):
undefined

Speaker1: it's recipes for incense similarly in the first half half of the book, (02:01:48):
undefined

Speaker1: I go through individual ingredients. (02:01:53):
undefined

Speaker1: I tried to stick to like sort of not like real obscure ingredients, (02:01:55):
undefined

Speaker1: but things you can easily buy like at the grocery store or like wild craft in your neighborhood. (02:01:58):
undefined

Speaker1: About a hundred ingredients. I explain them. I talk about their magical virtues. (02:02:05):
undefined

Speaker1: And really what I'm doing is my intention is not to create like a complete catalog, (02:02:08):
undefined

Speaker1: which I think like a book is not the right format for. (02:02:12):
undefined

Speaker1: Instead to talk about like how I can look at a plant and know what its magical (02:02:16):
undefined

Speaker1: virtues are by understanding like its ecological niche and its biochemistry, etc. (02:02:21):
undefined

Speaker1: And as I mentioned, my BFF magician I grew up with is now a professor of botanical medicine. (02:02:25):
undefined

Speaker1: So like I'm not an expert in phytochemistry, but, you know, I lived with her (02:02:30):
undefined

Speaker1: while she was in plant medicine school. (02:02:35):
undefined

Speaker1: So like I do know a lot about plant medicine. Right. (02:02:37):
undefined

Speaker1: And then the second half is recipes. And in every recipe, I explain like why (02:02:40):
undefined

Speaker1: I chose it. Because I find that infuriating when I read a magical recipe. (02:02:45):
undefined

Speaker1: I'm like, why the fuck does this have roses in it? That doesn't make any sense (02:02:49):
undefined

Speaker1: at all. So every ingredient, I explain why it's there. (02:02:52):
undefined

Speaker1: That's great. And that's always my goal when I'm writing or teaching is to explain (02:02:55):
undefined

Speaker1: why I made it. So in terms of classes, I have two classes. (02:02:59):
undefined

Speaker1: Fall semester is opening soon. So my classes all restart at Halloween. (02:03:01):
undefined

Speaker1: So I've got Introduction to Witchcraft, which is 13 lessons. (02:03:05):
undefined

Speaker1: It is written. It is accessible to beginners. So if you've never done any kind (02:03:09):
undefined

Speaker1: of magic, it's very accessible. but objectively less than half the people in (02:03:13):
undefined

Speaker1: that class are beginners. (02:03:16):
undefined

Speaker1: Many people in that class have like decades long practice and you just get to (02:03:18):
undefined

Speaker1: see like foundational magic, foundational skills from a new point of view. (02:03:22):
undefined

Speaker1: And then I also teach a companion course on the pentacles. (02:03:26):
undefined

Speaker1: And then I also have a lot of like one shot lessons, like special topics in magic lessons. (02:03:30):
undefined

Speaker1: You can find all of them at whichlessons.com or you can just put my name into (02:03:34):
undefined

Speaker1: Google and find me on like Facebook. (02:03:39):
undefined

Speaker1: Technically, I am on Instagram, but you will see I pretty much only use it for (02:03:42):
undefined

Speaker1: advertising. I don't really say interesting things on Instagram. (02:03:45):
undefined

Speaker0: Well, this is an awesome interview, and I look forward to hearing lots more from you in the future. (02:03:48):
undefined

Speaker1: When will this interview be out? (02:03:53):
undefined

Speaker0: Most likely Monday. (02:03:55):
undefined

Speaker1: Okay. Can I talk about some... I have some live events coming up. (02:03:57):
undefined

Speaker1: Is that okay? Sure. Go ahead. (02:03:59):
undefined

Speaker1: So October... Actually, September 4th through 6th, I am doing Wealth and Witchery Summit. (02:04:01):
undefined

Speaker1: So it's a free event. (02:04:09):
undefined

Speaker1: It's a lot of teachers. You get to see lessons. So if you come live, it's free. (02:04:13):
undefined

Speaker1: But for $77, you can buy recordings and you get a bunch of bonus material if (02:04:16):
undefined

Speaker1: you pay. But if you come free, it's live. (02:04:21):
undefined

Speaker1: Can I just give you a link that you can post with? (02:04:24):
undefined

Speaker0: Yeah, yeah, yeah. (02:04:27):
undefined

Speaker1: So there'll be a link down (02:04:27):
undefined

Speaker0: In the comments or whatever. Yeah, just send me that and I'll put it in the comments. (02:04:28):
undefined

Speaker1: Halloween weekend, I will be at the Changing Times, Changing Worlds conference in Connecticut. (02:04:32):
undefined

Speaker1: I'm going to teach Solomonic Pentacles. I'm going to teach Sefer Ha'otot, (02:04:37):
undefined

Speaker1: this Hebrew manuscript. So it's a never-before-translated, never-before-published (02:04:41):
undefined

Speaker1: Hebrew manuscript of Pentacles. (02:04:44):
undefined

Speaker1: This is the first time I am teaching it. As far as I know, it is the first time it's ever been taught. (02:04:46):
undefined

Speaker1: Certainly the only time it's ever (02:04:52):
undefined

Speaker1: been taught in English anywhere in the world. I'm going to teach that. (02:04:54):
undefined

Speaker1: Also running a Hakate ritual where we will ignite witchfire. (02:04:56):
undefined

Speaker1: When I have run this ritual other places, I will say I've had more than a couple (02:05:01):
undefined

Speaker1: people have seizures during this ritual. (02:05:06):
undefined

Speaker1: But I've cleaned up the ritual, so probably it doesn't induce seizures anymore. (02:05:07):
undefined

Speaker0: Not a very good ad for it. (02:05:10):
undefined

Speaker1: You know what isn't it if somebody told you hey this ritual like i would go (02:05:12):
undefined

Speaker1: to a ritual that like i think it's a great advertisement everyone who's ever (02:05:16):
undefined

Speaker1: had a seizure at this ritual afterward has come over and thanked me like it's (02:05:19):
undefined

Speaker1: a great ritual it's an ignition of which i do i (02:05:25):
undefined

Speaker0: Do not necessarily endorse people doing rituals that cause seizures just for (02:05:27):
undefined

Speaker0: the record well that's hilarious. (02:05:32):
undefined

Speaker1: But i mean i'm i'm a i'm a pretty grown-up badass magician if you ask around (02:05:33):
undefined

Speaker1: you'll see i have I have a pretty good reputation for being a decent human being (02:05:38):
undefined

Speaker1: who takes care of people. Very good. (02:05:41):
undefined

Speaker1: Like no one has ever been hurt in this ritual. (02:05:43):
undefined

Speaker0: Very good. All right. Well, thank you for now. That was, that was really, that was great. (02:05:45):
undefined

Speaker1: Thank you very much. I had a great time. (02:05:50):
undefined

All Episodes

Episode Transcript

Popular Podcasts

On Purpose with Jay Shetty

Dateline NBC

24/7 News: The Latest

.css-15opob5{left:0;position:absolute;top:0.8rem;} All Episodes

.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}Ep. 215: The Sorcery of Solomon With Sara Mastros

Episode Transcript

Popular Podcasts

.css-r6mb8g{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:1;overflow:hidden;}On Purpose with Jay Shetty

Dateline NBC

24/7 News: The Latest

All Episodes

Ep. 215: The Sorcery of Solomon With Sara Mastros

On Purpose with Jay Shetty