Ep. 216: The Secret History of the Tarot With Jezmina Von Thiele & Paulina Stevens

Episode Transcript
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(01:06):
Recording. Okay. Hello. Let's get straight into it. Thank you for your patience.
Sorry for the extra delay.
Please, please introduce yourself to our audience and tell them a little bit about who you are.
Thank you so much for having us. I'm Jasmina Von Tila.
I am a tarot palm and tea leaf reader in my mixed Romani family tradition.

(01:29):
I do readings in person in Smith, New Hampshire and online.
And I'm also a writer of creative writing of all kinds.
And I co-wrote a book with Paulina Stevens called Secrets of Romani Fortune
Telling, who is also my co-host for our podcast, Romani Sun Podcast.

(01:50):
Gotcha. So you're both on today.
So how did you end up getting together and deciding to do a podcast together?
And what's the specific topic of your podcast.
Actually i'm just gonna let paulina introduce herself as well and then we'll get into that
So i'm paulina and i
do all that stuff with jest and so i

(02:13):
own my own holistic healing store in laguna beach california but it's just like
a private practice so i work with people from all over it's also an online business
and i also sorry i'm just kind of like Like, what else do I do besides the podcast and the book?
I think that's pretty much everything. I'm also a mom.

(02:33):
Yeah, we wrote the book, Secrets of Romani Fortune Telling. And so that's why we are here today.
Yeah. And Romanistan podcast is a celebration of Romani culture. 22 0:02 --> 0:02 A lot of people don't realize that the word Roma refers to a diasporic ethnic 23 0:02 --> 0:02:54,540 group originally from India, also known by the racial slur gypsies,

(02:54):
which depending on where you live, maybe use more or less neutrally.
So we're not Romanians and we're not Romans. We are Roma.
And Roma have been persecuted worldwide,
which is ongoing since early Roma left India around the 10th century and arrived in Europe,
probably the late 1300s, and have also shaped culture and spiritual practices

(03:19):
in a lot of really significant ways that are often under-documented and under-acknowledged.
And so So tarot, tea leaf reading, palmistry, that's what Paulina and I do as
our family trades, even though we grew up in separate families across the country from each other.
But those trades have been so influenced and sometimes even created by or pioneered by Romani people.

(03:41):
And it's so infrequently discussed that we decided to write a whole book about it.
So our podcast, Romanisan Podcast, is an opportunity to interview Roma from
all different walks of life, doing all kinds of fascinating things,
traditional and non-traditional, whereas the book is focused on secrets of Romani fortune-telling.

(04:01):
It's focused on tarot, palmistry, tea leaf reading, and more.
But we also talk about cultural context and history and what it was like growing
up doing what we do. So it's a little memoir.
It's a little how-to. It's a little culture and history.
Awesome. Well, let's start off with what it was like growing up doing what you do,
because I'm super interested in that, and that sounds like there's some awesome
some stories there so what was it like growing up in that context in that cultural

(04:24):
context with it sounds like fortune telling as a family trade i think you said
so what was that like for both of.
You yeah paulina you want to share first
Sure so my parents
owned small holistic healing or psychic parlors throughout california and i

(04:47):
would say they operated these stores we didn't like own these stores you know
sometimes we even lived in our stores but fortune telling has really
Been a trade for
Myself and for my family and growing up with it i was i grew up in community
so i wasn't really in the outside world too much i was taken out of elementary

(05:09):
school strictly to focus on
fortune telling and to like prepare for marriage and stuff like that.
So yeah, like I had an arranged marriage, um, which actually talk about on a
series, a podcast series with LA times called foretold.
If anyone wants to check that out, but that's kind of what it was like for us
is like, we had to do fortune telling, like we weren't allowed to have any other

(05:31):
jobs or even any other interest at that point.
It was just like, you're going to do fortune telling and that's it.
So as I got older, I kind of like, Like, I kind of actually resented it for
a little while, like a couple years. I was like, I don't want to do board and telling.
But of course, I fell back into it because I absolutely love it.
So why was it pushed so much? Yeah.

(05:54):
So throughout, it's such a long history, but Romani people are known as like
travelers, gypsies, like we travel the world and stuff like that.
But truthfully, we were pushed out of our communities through war and slavery
and just a lot of bad stuff like that.

(06:14):
That so we needed to figure out a way to or not figure out a way i mean these
are our these are our trade but these are
Things that you can do
On the move like you can entertain you know you can dance you can fortune tell
like you can play music like you can do things like that and that's what my
family has done throughout their life here i obviously don't speak for all roma

(06:38):
i don't speak We were all gypsies,
but that's what it was like for us.
Gotcha.
Yeah, I had a different experience. And I think also what Paulina talks a lot
about and foretold is that, 81 0:06:52,020 --> 0:06 you know, a lot of Romani kids are bullied out of schools or their families 82 0:06 --> 0:06:59,260 don't want them to attend school because of the bullying, the racism,

(06:59):
but also traditional culture,
which I didn't grow up in, is different than American culture or whatever the dominant culture is.
And so there can be, because of centuries of persecution, there can also be
a fear of becoming too intermixed.
And then I am one of those people who is very intermixed.
I grew up assimilated. Only my maternal grandmother is Romani,

(07:20):
but I was very, very close to her growing up and she...
I left Germany shortly after World War II, where Romani people and Sinti people,
it's just a subgroup of Roma, were persecuted alongside Jewish folks and other
ethnic, religious, political minorities.
And my grandmother, when she came to America, really wanted to hide her ethnicity.

(07:43):
She felt like it was hard enough being a German immigrant. She didn't want anyone
to know that she was Romani as well.
She came over alone, which is very, very unusual.
And by the time I came around, she was very afraid of our culture just dying out in our family.
And so from when I was four, she raised me to do everything that she could remember

(08:06):
and recall from her own childhood,
where she was kind of hiding in plain sight in Germany and also living with
a non-Romani person who was shielding them, but that's complicated.
So I grew up with this understanding that I was meant to keep my ethnicity a
secret, which Paulina also grew up that way as well.

(08:29):
But also knowing that I could do other work if I wanted to, but this was the
family trade and this is what we did.
And this was important for her to share with me, but it was the best part of my childhood for me.
But I had the freedom of choice and i had access to all the education i wanted
so it's they're different stories but the idea of these being survival trades

(08:51):
was the same theme for both of us
It sounds like both of you have had a
jerk i'm curious i mean it sounds like both of you would have had a journey
from feeling like you needed to hide your ethnicity to now doing a podcast and
a book about it so maybe talk about how that how that journey has gone i know
there's probably a lot lot of steps along it but i.

(09:14):
Feel also as
surprised as everybody else i think i didn't
think that i would ever really want to even like
communicate about the culture like the things i've
been through personally the things that i want to advocate for and what inspired
me was jess actually so jess was someone i i was just getting out into the culture

(09:39):
like i'd left my community And Jez was talking and advocating for Roma around
the world and just educating people.
And I really kind of felt inspired by them and others that were doing similar things.
And I was like, I think if there's anything I could at least do is contribute
to society with the knowledge that I have,

(10:02):
I guess.
And then we just kind of got here. But what do you think, Jez? Yes.
Yeah, I mean, I was so, it was such an interesting time when you reached out
to me because I think every person who has like mixed ethnic background is always
like, where do I belong? How much should I be talking or not talking?
But I just was so, I just adored, adored, adored my grandmother. 132 0:10 --> 0:10:29,720 She was so wonderful. and it really pained me to understand that so much of

(10:29):
our intergenerational trauma and inherited trauma came from the persecution
of Roma, war, you know, all kinds of things, genocide, all the hot topics.
And so I wanted to do something about it.
I'm a writer. That was mostly what I was doing back then and I was an academic.
And then when Paulina reached out to me, it was just shortly after my mother

(10:50):
had died and I was kind of processing and it's like give me a few months.
And Paulina was like, perfect.
So yeah, we decided to launch the podcast both as a celebration of Romani culture,
but also a safe space for Romani Sinti related folks who maybe fit what's traditional.
You know, we both come from imperfect backgrounds.

(11:13):
None of us are perfect Roma. And we wanted it to be a place also for LGBTQ plus Roma,
you know, disabled Roma, Roma who are mixed, or maybe doing work that challenges
tradition in some way, and just an opportunity for us to look at how our culture
continues to evolve and celebrate that evolution.

(11:37):
Cool. I know this is a big generalization, but how do Roma in general view fortune-telling and,
Do they have views about fortune telling as its practice outside of a Roma context, like by everyone else?
That's such a good question. Paulina, do you want to start with that?

(11:57):
Yeah, I think it's crazy because the way that we view it, I say we as in a community
as a whole, is so differently just like the rest of the world.
Like some Roma are super like, I don't know why, but like Christian and for
some reason or Catholic and they feel like fortune telling is really wrong because of their religion.

(12:18):
Some others feel like, you know, they completely believe in it and trust in it.
And kind of like you get a combination, really, I think, in every family.
There's a little bit of everything kind of like some people believe in it,
some people don't. I think like anything, it's just, I think we practice it.
I would say, I don't know if I could be politically wrong or not.

(12:42):
I mean, who knows, but I would say a lot of Roma, I think are familiar with
it and practice it, at least the Roma that I know or that I deal with.
But definitely not all and everybody views it differently.
You know, some people get into it, some people leave, but that's kind of my
view. But what do you think? Yeah.
And I agree with all of that and would add to it as well that I think it can

(13:02):
be really complicated for Roma who maybe are in academia and they see it as
like, oh, no, y'all are still doing fortune telling. That's so embarrassing.
Makes us look bad. But we had the wonderful Romani feminist and academic Ethel Brooks on our podcast,
who very astutely pointed out that fortune telling has traditionally been mostly

(13:24):
women's work and mostly the emotional labor, which is, you know,
consistently undervalued.
And Romani culture is a patriarchal culture.
And yeah, so we think that fortune telling has been undervalued more for that reason.
Of course, people misuse it and can scam and do other things that we,
you know, don't condone, but...
It can sometimes be dismissed as superstition.

(13:49):
But for other families, it's, you know, my grandmother was so proud of it.
It was something that she really believed in.
And she was also like very casual about it, where when I was four,
she taught me to meditate.
And she's like, perfect, open your mind to God and just tell everyone what God
says. It was just seemed so normal.
And so, you know, Roma feel differently about it all over the world.

(14:09):
But then to the second part of your question how do roma feel about non-roma
practicing also complicated so
some roma feel very very strongly that tarot
and related practices that roma have either evolved or created should be closed
practices and and people shouldn't be practicing them other roma feel that they

(14:32):
are at the point where they're so intermixed with our you know mainstream culture,
that ideally Romani voices would be re-centered in these conversations.
And you would go to Romani teachers, and you would read books by Roma about
these things, and you would make an effort to learn the cultural context and
collaborate with Roma in these spaces and sort of use your platforms to invite people in.

(14:54):
We tend to be of that opinion. And then there are other Roma who just simply
couldn't care less and are like, that's not the most important thing that we're facing right now.
So there's room for all of it.
So I'm actually unclear about where the current academic consensus is on the
origin of tarot and some of the other divination tools that have come into Europe.

(15:17):
I mean, I've definitely heard the story that Roma brought tarot into Europe,
potentially from India, but I'm curious where the current thinking on that is.
Yeah. I mean, we're definitely not speaking for all academics because academics usually ignore us.
But from our perspective and what we write about in the book,
For instance, tarot was created in Italy, but likely inspired by earlier decks

(15:42):
like the Mamluk cards that were coming from West Asia and further east.
And Romani people arrived in Italy around the same time that these cards were
first created and were the first people to use them as divination tools and
quickly turned it into a divination practice.
Practice that started to really light up, especially around the Victorian era,

(16:06):
became very trendy along with tea leaf reading and palmistry.
So palmistry is originally an Ayurvedic practice. It's an Indian art.
Early Roma would have taken it with them. But before Roma left India,
it had also traveled along the Silk Road.
And so you have Chinese variations of palm reading in other parts of Asia,
which is fascinating and very fun.

(16:28):
But Roma popularized what we are are familiar with as Western palm reading,
which is actually Indian palm reading.
And of course, Roma are not, not all Roma, actually. I know some Ayurvedic practitioners
like Janeline Joseph, who are also Roma.
But, you know, we've changed things over time.
And tea leaf reading and coffee reading has existed as long as these drinks have been consumed.

(16:51):
But again, Romani people popularized it, brought it West, and have basically,
like if we think about branding a lot these days.
Roma have branded all of these things, but because of persecution,
have not really been given credit for it.
And so you have phenomena like in the Victorian era, society ladies dressing
up in brown fates and Romani costume to give each other tea leaf readings or

(17:16):
palm readings or card readings.
And they were mimicking the Romani, usually women, but sometimes men too,
who were going door to door selling fortunes.
So for a long time, Roma origin has been removed from this work.
Where what about the where is people's thinking at currently about the Indian origins of the Roma?

(17:40):
I mean, I don't think there's a lot of debate about it in terms of scholarship.
Like scholars are confident. Of course, you have people who feel a certain way
about that and maybe not all Roma believe it.
I certainly didn't even know about it until I was well into my 20s.
I mean, my grandmother had no idea that Roma were from India.
But as far as like linguistic research and dna and all of that it's like pretty

(18:04):
clear northwestern india pakistan
Okay was it gujarat.
I would say oh sorry no go ahead you can answer i
Think that region you mean
Yeah probably like more rajasthan more
rajasthan okay i've been to rajasthan it's super super nice there
that actually makes sense just by the art style that's 244 0:18:26,040 --> 0:18 interesting yeah jane started in rajasthan all 245 0:18 --> 0:18:31,900 true interesting so it sounds

(18:31):
to me i'm just at a guess if the roman
were traveling along the silk road it sounds like they could have played a really
crucial role in cultural interchange and i just know just from my own studies
how porous things were back in the day there weren't really these clear divisions
between spiritual practices and so much of it was exchanged along the silk road

(18:52):
it seems to me like potentially Essentially,
the Roma were just more connected because they were traveling more.
There's a really interesting history as well about how the Roma people became Roma.
It's likely that really Roma were low-caste Indians and possibly also African
migrants who, you know, around the 10th century were rounded up to fight the

(19:13):
invading Ghaznavid Empire.
And that war went on for, I think, over...
I've never heard of that empire. What is that?
Oh, yeah. The Ghaznavid Empire is a very long-spanning empire.
I'm summarizing and being real, real basic, but I suggest people look it up.
It would be like present-day West Asia, Middle East. 262 0:19:40,440 --> 0:19 I'm just like, want to make sure that, okay, existed from 977 until 1186.

(19:48):
And basically, it was an enormous political cultural dynasty that was moving east.
And so when they were invading present day India, it would have been just around
the 10th century, massive army. me.

(20:09):
It's a really interesting because it took place over so many years.
There's like all these different rulers and reigns that you could get really
nerdy about, but I'm going to skip that because I'm not an expert on it.
But basically, when they were invading India, the early Roma were asked to fight or made to fight.
They were allowed to create camps outside of the battlefield because they were

(20:34):
fighting for almost a century.
Whole families were born and raised on these camps outside of the battlefield.
So a whole generation of people, a whole culture of people were created.
And then they lost and
so they were captured by the Ghaznavid army

(20:54):
and brought west and so
early Roma were likely prisoners for
at least most or a significant amount some might
have gone of their own volition some might have gone back to India so that's
a really interesting cultural cultural origin and then were enslaved in present-day

(21:15):
romania for 500 years from the 1370s until like just 10 years before the sort
of emancipation and that's
Probably a good place to be enslaved too.
Yeah it was really bad no reparations have been paid it's not even taught in romanian or european
History not that it's good anywhere but.
Just yeah no yeah it's not great and And so and also a lot of Romani people

(21:37):
came part of the transatlantic slave trade and started coming to the U.S.
Around that time, too. And so their Romani population. Yeah.
The Romani populations and like Louisiana. Really?
Yeah.
That's how some of my family got here. Yeah.
What time period was that? Yeah.
So that would have been like the start of the transatlantic slave trade in the

(22:02):
U.S. would have been when Roma started also being transported.
Like the 1800s maybe?
Let's see. I think it would be like 1400s, but I'm just going to double check
because I am too nervous to remember.
I'm curious if just because I actually just got back from a vacation in New

(22:24):
Orleans, and there's so many different cultural influences there.
And so much magic, obviously. I'm curious if there was any influence by Roma on Louisiana.
Yeah, definitely.
What's up with that? I'm super curious.
Looks like 1500s. So yeah, and that is definitely why also Paulina and I and

(22:45):
Bimbo Yaga of New Orleans, who also is known as Ilva Roma Marjana Rezhevsky,
we're creating a Welcome to Romanesan Festival in New Orleans this year from
December 4th and to the 8th.
Yeah, to celebrate Romani influence.
And so, you know, when you have different marginalized ethnic groups,

(23:06):
all marginalized together, there's going to be a certain amount of intermarrying
and friendship and relationship.
And so Afro-Romani culture is really fascinating there. There's indigenous Romani
culture. There's a mixture of all those three cultures.
This is still in New Orleans? Yeah. Wow. Okay. Awesome. Awesome.
I'll have to look out for that next time I'm there.
Yeah. So we're doing the festival to celebrate that and to celebrate the book.

(23:30):
And there'll be tea leaf reading salons and family dinner and arts and culture
performances. It'll be really fun.
Awesome. So you mentioned, and which I agree with you, not just on this,
but on any spiritual practice or tradition,
the idea of going to the originators and asking to see it in context
respectfully i'm a big proponent on

(23:53):
that and not people not making up their own
versions of things you know i mean even if you
go to an actual buddhist or hindu temple it's so different from
what people think of as yoga or meditation or things
like this so i'm a big proponent of that and i'm really and that's
a fascinating idea to me when it comes to things
like tarot because these are you know

(24:13):
this is a podcast about magic people are interested in in the
occult and tarot is never one
you hear people talking about going to get the cultural
context in so my question there
is twofold one is
what are people missing and of what you're comfortable sharing and two if somebody

(24:35):
was to go to learn about those topics from romani people what would that be
like and how would it be different from how it's normally viewed i mean everyone's
got their own version of it, but I think you know what I mean.
Paulina, I want to hear your answer to that first.
Sorry, can you kind of like ask it again? Okay, so if somebody,

(24:59):
So this, so most of the people who listen to this podcast are interested in magic and learning it.
So if somebody were to come to a room, you know, an actual Romani fortune teller
to learn about tarot and fortune telling from them, what would they learn and
what distinctions would they pick up that would be different from what they're
getting kind of in the general public? 345 0:25:19,560 --> 0:25 Work yeah so i feel 346 0:25 --> 0:25:24,080 Like for one

(25:24):
Like i said this is our cultural practice or
and our cultural trade so we have
just a tremendous amount of experience in it
from a really young age i would say the people that
are offering services to teach them because you can't really just
go to any you know gypsy fortune teller and
learn from them but i would say

(25:46):
that it's tremendously different when you
are genuinely interested in learning about
the history and cultural context and the cultural practice part of tarot and
fortune telling so that's the thing is there's just i i think it's kind of like

(26:07):
black and white like anybody can you know i think pick up a book and just read the,
you know, just read the, what the meaning is for something.
But I think when someone is there to kind of coach you through the process,
but also the lived experience.
So I mean, the fortune teller, you know, lived experience, it's like,
you know, we have this from, from a kid or, or, or most of the time,

(26:32):
you know, as a child growing up with this and all the different types of experience,
like, I think it's just a difference to that degree.
But at the same time, I recommend a lot of books outside of what Romani people are writing as well.
So it's like, I think you, it's probably great to know that the history,
the cultural context, but I would say, look at everything.

(26:55):
You know what I mean? It's all one big spiritual world.
Yeah, and I think a lot of the reason why we wanted to write our book,
too, is that for a long time, non-Romani authors on tarot were the only sources.
And so we have come to, like, love and appreciate them while also recognizing
that what we do is a little different.
And so we can appreciate the way that tarot has evolved,

(27:18):
but there are certain things that are really uniquely Romani,
the way that we approach spiritual hygiene with reading and how,
you know, making sure that the space is a certain way before you start reading
for your well-being, the client's well-being.
We have professionalism built into reading that a lot of people don't.
And if you've ever been to a reader who wasn't particularly professional,

(27:40):
you'll see why that matters.
And so we have a certain way of handling bad news and explaining it as good advice.
Instead, there's a certain way of non-judgment in everything that your client can come to you with.
Really, if you're a Romani reader, like nothing can shock you.
You've heard everything. And that's really priceless as well,

(28:01):
because people come in with all kinds of really difficult things that they might be struggling with.
They might have done something that they are ashamed of or struggling with.
But then there's also the element of it, like Paulina was saying,
that it's a lived experience in a different kind of way.
And so we have this section of our book where we talk about cultural trauma

(28:22):
and intuition and how Roma are not uniquely magical people.
It's our lived experience, but also intergenerational trauma as well as present-day
trauma can make certain people very attuned to human behavior.
And we've had to historically as a whole people be able to read a vibe and read

(28:45):
a situation really quick.
And so that's an enormous part of what we do is both the practical and the spiritual
aspect of intuition. And then, of course, we have our own personal spiritual practices.
And we shared some of them that have become more mainstream,
but we have lots of things that are closed practice that we'll never write about
because people don't need to know.

(29:06):
But we like to try to give context to the things that are already out there in the world.
And it's like, oh, okay, so if you've heard about maybe why you shouldn't talk
about your projects while they're being developed, here's our opinion on that.
And here are some things that you can do to protect your energy.
What is your opinion on that, actually? Because that's something I think about a lot. I'm curious.

(29:27):
Yeah, I mean, yeah,
Paulina, I want you to answer that.
I'm superstitious, you know, and like, I believe things like that,
like we're popularized from our people too, because we're so superstitious about it.
You know, and it's, we have been for a thousand years where it's like,
I think it's, there's all, there must be some kind of science around it,

(29:50):
where it's like, if you want something to happen, the way I explain it to people
sometimes is like, if you want something to happen, or if you're a reader and
like, let's say the cards are saying like, oh, you got a promotion.
And then the guy like, goes around and tells everyone at the office,
like, I'm getting a promotion.
But then like the managers like, I was thinking about it, but now I'm not because
you're being cocky or whatever.
And then it changes the course or whatever it is, like, maybe there is obviously

(30:13):
some kind of just social thing to it.
But we feel like until it's in our hands, like we don't want to be putting the
energy out there and telling people like that, you know, like we got it,
like if we didn't, or we're gonna get it, because anything can happen.
Happen but at the same time it really does contradict a lot of the like manifestation

(30:35):
like you have to envision it it's more of like this silent like purely emotional brain manifestation
but not so much of like the speaking manifestation of like yeah like i got it
or this or that it's we're more like when you actually got it like you actually
got it like that sort of thing
Yeah that's always if i understand what you said right i mean that's always

(30:57):
a tricky one with magic It's kind of like, you're not supposed to say, talk about it.
And often with a lot of forms of magic, you're not even supposed to think about it.
Yet that contradicts kind of what you were saying, the positive affirmation
or visualization or, you know, it's like, these are two totally different philosophies
towards magic and they tend to blur together for people and become kind of confusing.

(31:20):
So I'm curious where you kind of navigate that, that inner zone between those two things.
I'll just say what I do really quick is I have to find a balance between both. 437 0:31:33,320 --> 0:31 So that's where I feel like sometimes I tell clients like right here and now,
like, you know, what is it that you want?
Like, write it down, envision it. But then, like, obviously don't go around

(31:42):
like talking about it or boasting about it with anyone.
So that's kind of the way that I navigate it.
Yeah i have a similar approach and
my family was always so worried about other
people's jealousy and how that can impact energetically but also practically
you know people get jealous and they act wild and so i think being humble is

(32:04):
just a nice in between where you can get all your wish making and ritual or
prayer or whatever you want but like stay humble stay focused us.
Gotcha. It's just a rewind just a little bit. It's a really profound comment
you've made about intergenerational trauma.
One thing that I can't help but have noticed after 25 years of being around

(32:27):
magical people and teaching magic is how common childhood trauma is.
And it's for the reason that you said, which is that people who grow up in that
environment need to get really,
really good at reading situations and subtleties and
unspokens and changes in facial expression and
things like that so that and and often trauma can
extreme trauma can produce out-of-body experiences so

(32:51):
i've noticed that but i've never considered that from the intergenerational
perspective which is a lot that's a lot anyways i'm curious maybe just to to
talk about that a little bit more just because I'm uncertain what that would
look like in a family context.

(33:12):
Yeah. I mean, I feel like so many different Romani families could answer that
differently. How do you feel like that was in your family, Paulina?
So I don't know why, but this reminds me of a book I read, which I've talked
about before, because I always talk about it.
It's called It Didn't Start With You by Mark Wallin.
And it just talks about how the trauma kind of lives in our DNA.

(33:34):
And even though there's like a whole magical world, I'm always like the one
that like rains on the parade where like, I love to tie the science into the magic all the time.
And it's like, bro, if science says it too, and the people are saying it and
spirituality saying it like it got to be real.
And that's kind of how like my mindset is where it's like that trauma from my

(34:00):
ancestors and the trauma that I've lived and like just all the trauma in the air.
I feel like it totally...
Helps in the fortune field in the foretelling field aspect because it just it
just does you understand people on such a deep and dynamic level yeah

(34:22):
I'm thinking too of the advice that my
grandmother would give me because she also grew up
reading doing face reading but that's not something i was taught she
was just like i can't figure out how to teach you but
it was something that i did absorb over time where she'd be oh anytime that
you can see the whites all the the way around someone's eyes that's someone
who's unstable or like little things like look at people's shoes like do their

(34:46):
shoes make sense with what they're wearing they may or may not be like safe
people to be mine definitely
Don't yeah i'm too i'm too tall to look at my shoes.
What
Was it called me out too personally okay what
About socks if their socks don't match.
What There's a lot you can tell from socks. I'm just sad the whole time.

(35:11):
But yeah, all kinds of little things. And my mother taught me that if someone
is fixating on you in a way where you feel like they might be ready to attack
you, do something with your hands to draw their attention away.
And in that moment, that's when you... And this was just... I was like six. Huh. That's years ago.
They had gone through so much. But these things have been really helpful because

(35:32):
sometimes you have clients who are also maybe aggressive. So I had to ban someone
a few weeks ago from a shop and that was a very helpful tip for me.
Yikes.
There's little business things that are not included in the book.
I remember one of my aunts being like, you know, if they put something down
like their keys or, you know, or something they're holding, like cover it with a paper or something.

(35:58):
So they have to come back in and then they get, you know, an extra,
you know, version of you or something or like it makes them feel like they want to come back.
And so there's sometimes like little things like because, you know,
we're depending on our we have to pay our bills with it.
So like we need return clientele too.
Gotcha. What would you say that some of the challenges that Roma people face

(36:21):
currently are and have you seen those improve in your lifetime or not?
That is a good question. It's a big question.
There has consistently been, for centuries, discrimination for Roma with,
you know, housing, health care, education.
There's consistently been police brutality, disproportionate levels of poverty,

(36:49):
As well as incarceration. incarceration roma
experienced a tremendous amount of environmental racism because
roma initially were persecuted to
the point of nomadism and then nomadism became
another reason to persecute roma and many roma are and
continue to be forcibly settled a lot of the traveling sites are like literally

(37:10):
toxic from waste and other environmental issues but a lot of the settlements
all over the world also don't have consistent sanitation clean water things
like that And so Roma also exist at all different levels.
You know, there are wealthy Roma, there are the poorest of the poor as well.
But Roma consistently, especially if you read as a person of color,

(37:35):
are discriminated against in a lot of different ways.
For instance, if you live in a place where Romani people have a recognizable
accent to the local people, that's one thing that you'd have to work on to hide.
One of our guests, Rowena Marin, who now works at Google, discussed when she
was in school in Romania trying to smooth out her Romani accent so she could apply for jobs.

(37:56):
Because people might not rent to you, they probably won't hire you, depending. pending.
In the US, it's a little bit easier to hide. But, you know, I still had a client come in for a reading.
And at the end of the reading, she was like, Well, I'm so glad you're one of
the good ones, because all the gypsies in my area are terrible.
And I hate them. And she started going on the huge rant.
And this is a New Hampshire, like, I was just like, okay.

(38:20):
But it happens all the time.
It does. And so, you know, when I was a kid in school, 537 0:38 --> 0:38 I, I think I'm like, ethnically 538 0:38 --> 0:38:31,840 ambiguous like i don't clearly read one thing or another
but for new hampshire i was very exotic and so
the kids were always wanting to know like where i was from and where i'm
from originally my parents wanted to know where i was from and eventually like

(38:41):
at six years old i was like oh you know i'm a gypsy it's like my grandma told
me not to tell you but i'm sure it's fine and kids threw rocks at me i had a
teacher give me detention for giving the evil eye just what the hell yeah no
all kinds of so backwards it's wildly backwards this
Is in new hampshire.
This was in new New Hampshire, when I was 10, I was wearing a traditional head
covering and the police stopped me because they said I was a runaway and like took me into their car.

(39:06):
And I had to like promise them that my dad was just down the street. And it was a nightmare.
But Polina has loads of stories too.
But I've noticed that compared to like 10 years ago, when I've,
you know, shared my cultural context, more people are like, oh,
interesting, rather than say something horrible.
And so I do think that there's more awareness. But at the same time,

(39:28):
a lot of the really meaningful political action needs to happen in Europe for change to happen.
It's just not happening. And we need much more Romani representation in places like the UN.
We need the concept of a stateless nation for Roma in order to execute any kind
of real change because Romani refugees are still being, you know,

(39:48):
left with nothing or deported back to war-torn places.
Romani people are still being excluded from life-saving health care or,
you know, struggling to get compensation for forced sterilization,
you know, all kinds of really dark things.
Was that in Europe or America? America.
Yeah. Well, probably both, but it's definitely more documented in Europe.

(40:09):
It happens in America too.
It does. It does. And so, yeah, there has been change.
There definitely has been change, but there's still a lot of really shocking things.
And so if listeners are interested, checking out the European Roma Rights Center, ERRC,
it's a really good resource if you want to know more about the news,

(40:31):
but they're, There are all kinds of great Roma organizations that we list on
our website, romanasanpodcast.com.
Paulina, is there anything you want to share about your experience with like
how things have changed over the years with you?
For sure.
So my thought on it is like if I just have to answer like, yes,
is it getting better or worse?
I would unfortunately say yes, it is getting better.

(40:53):
I say unfortunately because it's still like so not the best.
You know, it's so bad in so many other places. But I would say,
like, I think we're moving forward in the overall lens when I think of countries
like Iran and Afghanistan,
like especially, oh, my gosh, like with Afghanistan, like right now and revoking

(41:14):
all these women's rights and in order to be out in public.
So this is, not to interrupt it, but I just don't know about this.
So it sounds like people are having problems with extremist Islam also in that
part of the world, or Taliban, or ISIS or something like that.
It sounds similar to what the Yazidi...
Yeah, I would say like extremism to a degree.

(41:37):
And so I feel like when it comes to our society, like in some parts,
I feel like those societies are going backwards.
But we don't have a country, but we don't really have anything to base like
where we're at, where gypsies are, it really depends on the country that we're in as well.
So like, the big majority of gypsies that are in Europe

(41:58):
They have, you know,
Done a little bit more programs. They're in school a little bit more,
like things are getting a tiny bit better, but it's still like pretty rough out there.
But I wouldn't say like it's going backwards.
About how many Roma are there worldwide, more or less?
There are about 1 million in the U.S. and 14 million worldwide.

(42:21):
Wow. Okay, so not many. About, I believe there's 16 million Jews in the world. so somewhat similar but.
If i
Understand this i don't fully understand this but it seems to me that is it
as simple as if you don't have a state you don't have the same rights and protections
as other groups of people.
Yeah i think that's i think that's a major aspect of it and i think that

(42:47):
there have been roma have experienced a tremendous amount of obstacles but then
there's also the issue of Roma have either had to or preferred to deal with
it through invisibility,
and so trying to fly under the radar as much as possible.
And so I think Roma, for that reason, have not been as organized as maybe some

(43:14):
other ethnic groups that...
Have really, you know, well-established organizations and allyship with other
BIPOC communities like Roma aren't as integrated.
And integration is complicated because we don't want to be assimilated.
We prefer to be integrated, but
sometimes it feels like you'd have to assimilate in order to integrate.

(43:37):
And so, you know, every marginalized ethnic group continues to have its struggles.
Some Romani struggles are unique. Some of them are shared by other groups,
but it's the lack of representation.
It's a statelessness, and it's also a fear of visibility or an inability to
survive and be visible in certain situations.
In your own efforts of being visible and doing a podcast and being very public,

(44:01):
have you faced pushback from people who would prefer that maybe you'd be more invisible?
Yeah. For the most part, though, people have been like, oh, this is so nice.
How lovely for a Romani podcast. But with the book, specifically,
a lot of people maybe were triggered by the word secrets and were like,

(44:23):
who gave you permission to do this?
Which I don't think they would ever ask a Romani man about that, but that's my opinion.
But it's like you know who gave you permission to do this why
are you sharing this this isn't how we do things but a
lot of our listeners are Roma and are happy to be represented we're not the
only Romani podcasters some other great ones out there like the Romani Tea Room

(44:47):
and Dead Scared Entertainment's O Verda D'Arno and Roman Rum and Amaro Voice
and all these really really cool podcast initiatives,
but I think we're one of the more consistent and longer running podcasts.
But yeah, we definitely get people who are mad at us, but we also get a lot of support.

(45:07):
Paulina, I love it when you talk about the haters. Is there anything you want
to say? We love the haters.
No, I think, you know, all publicity is good publicity.
And I think what we're really trying to do in our main goal is like so good
on a huge level that even when we do get backlash, it's like,

(45:30):
whatever, like, you're just helping our algorithm at that point.
Like, sure, bring it on. Like, we've heard it all before.
But I get a lot of backlash even today. Like, I think I showed you just like
some voicemails that I had gotten, like, my from my own family and from outsiders,
like, I'm constantly in some kind of heat, because it's why are you talking about our family?

(45:50):
You know, why are you talking about gypsies in general like
you know why do you trust like the outsiders or why are you choosing them over
us there's a lot of that us versus them mentality and I think I would say rightfully
so unfortunately and maybe it's
not all you know what I'm saying is that I think I just understand when

(46:13):
we're getting backlash or from some of the people there's an understanding of
like hey like Like, I know like society has really screwed us over and I could
see why you feel that way.
And, you know, I'm sorry for the pain that that causes you and everybody else.
But at the same time, I have to do what I believe is right.
And I believe this is going to help us and help our culture and our future generations to come.

(46:35):
So that's kind of my pushback on.
I'm really curious about the experience of growing up being trained in fortune
telling from a young age. How does that work?
Are there stages that you kind of go through?
Are there levels of development or maturity that are expected of somebody who's coming up in that world?

(46:57):
Well, I mean, you always start young. So as soon as you can talk,
as soon as you can speak, really, is when you start.
And I've done that with my own kids as well.
Well, like when
I run a fair or festival, like it'll be like a donation someone will make and
they actually do really well.
When you get experience from such a young age, I think it's it just sets you

(47:21):
up to have that that backup. And originally, I didn't feel that way.
Originally, I felt I say originally, like just once I once I grew up,
I felt like we should be able to choose like what we do or this and that.
But now I feel like it's a trade that we have and you
know we should be able like we should know like if
we want to or teach it or or whatever because

(47:43):
I'm kind of on the other side now like now I have the
kids like I'm the older generation enforcing it not enforcing it I'm not like
if they don't want to learn they're not going to learn that's the difference
my generation was you have to learn like you can't do anything else I'm giving
them options and I'm like low-key like making them learn you know like i'm

(48:04):
Bribing them you guys
I see i see i see yeah i'm curious how the experience of being a mom and passing
that on has changed your view of of that cultural practice.
Yeah definitely yeah it definitely changed a lot i feel like in
The sense of

(48:24):
Wanting them to keep something like traditional to
know how to to do the practice but as well as they
can make money off the streets if they needed to like unfortunately like if
my kids needed to like read some palms and walk up to people and like make five
dollars to eat like I could totally trust that they could do that and I feel
like that's an important thing

(48:44):
to me but just what was it like being trained from a kid for you kind
Of well similar and different so like I had said I didn't I was always told I had options but what
I wanted to
Do but the way my grandmother explained it was really similar to how you're thinking
about it with your kids where it's like well listen if you ever needed
to like make a living with nothing you could do this

(49:06):
very well and you would be fine and that's the most important thing is that
you could survive and thrive and for my grandmother she said she taught me because
I was exhibiting signs that I would be good at it she had taught my mother and
my auntie but without much of a cultural context texts,
but she didn't feel like they would be good fortune tellers because my mother

(49:28):
is very psychic or was very psychic. She passed away, but
But she mostly saw misfortune. And my grandmother was like, well,
that would be terrible for business.
And my auntie was very shy and anxious and didn't like talking to people.
And my grandmother was like, oh, you know, you wouldn't be great at that either.
So she had them with horses.
But for me, when I was four, she felt like I was exhibiting some intuition.

(49:50):
We wrote about it in the book, like how this started for us as kids.
I had run up to her and put her hands on her knees when I was like three and
her knees were very arthritic. And when I pulled my hands away, it
Pulled the pain
Out with them. And I threw it across the room and then like marched away because
I was three. And she was like, oh, okay. Yeah.
This one, it's time. And so it started off with her teaching me about dream interpretation.

(50:16):
And she didn't use the word meditation, but essentially meditating.
And so like, God bless her. She taught me how to do that when I was four.
How do you teach a four-year-old to do that? But I was just so enraptured by
everything. thing. I mean, I loved her so much that I would do anything that she told me.
And so, yeah, from then, similar to what Paulina was saying,
it's like, as soon as you can talk, they start teaching you.

(50:38):
And we started, both Paulina and I started reading our families first,
because they're the people you know best.
And you're really just kind of mimicking like what your grandma or your mom or whatever is doing.
And then you start to really start to learn the techniques. Like my grandmother
first taught me about palm reading, that was the first thing I learned.
And she was saying, you have to stare at the hands until you can see the stories

(51:01):
moving underneath the lines.
And so that was a really big thing where, yes, it's good to know what all the
lines mean, what all the cards mean, what the symbols mean, but you're supposed
to be able to access some deeper knowledge from spending time with people's
energy or with their hand.
And so there were different stages to what I was learning.
I started off with palms, And then we moved into cards and then we moved into

(51:23):
tea, but everything felt very organic.
And by the time I was 12, I was reading for my friend, my mother's friends at
like little parties and stuff that they would have.
And I started reading for horses because New Hampshire was pretty conservative
or the part of New Hampshire I was in back then, probably still now.
Know and so people are more interested in being like why is my horse lame i'll

(51:46):
guess i'll pay a child to tell me i'm like getting their own fortunes
Read okay so.
That's what that looks like for me
Interesting so do you think that divination the psychic abilities are something
that can be trained or do you kind of have to be born to it and different people
have different opinions about this i'm curious.

(52:07):
Um i think it could be worked on i think it's pretty simple i feel like intuition
however you view it or however you see it it's just your ability to spiritually
communicate with people or communicate with people in general and i think with
experience it could be developed

(52:27):
Yeah, I totally agree. I think that some people might have a pre-decision for
it, where they might be naturally just very tapped in or be able to do hands-on
healing, and maybe they don't need a whole lot of guidance.
But I feel like if you really want to learn and you want to practice and do
all the ritual and the meditation and the spiritual hygiene and all these things,
yeah, I feel like anyone could access their intuition and be able to give a pretty good reading.

(52:52):
Are there any is there any emphasis or interest in, you know,
magical or spiritual practices outside of fortune telling in in Roman culture,
including ones maybe that aren't, you know, put on display for the public?
Yes. So I would recommend people to look for the artist Mihaela Dragan.

(53:15):
It's M-I-H-A-E-L-A, and then her last name is D-R-A-G-A-N. Inn.
And she co-founded with Zita Moldovan, the feminist theater troupe Jouve Le
Pen, which is the Romani word for feminism.
And they do a lot of performative magical ritual that is rooted in Romani culture.

(53:38):
And they collaborate with traditional Romani witches, the Minka and Buzia family in Romania.
And I think that is a kind of Romani magic that is like appropriate for non-Romani
people to partake in because it's a performance, it's presented a certain way,
it's what people want to show.

(54:00):
And in terms of what Paulina and I would have written about in the book would
be much more practical types of practices, like cleaning is its own kind of
magic And bathing is its own kind of magic. And yeah, Paulina,
do you want to add to that?
I would say, yeah, I mean, I think I agree with what you're saying.

(54:21):
It feels like there is little things that I guess little things that we do that might not always be.
Like public published or known like but some weird
things that I'm finding out is the more I we're talking about them
in the book and just in general I
feel like or the more we're seeing them with and talking

(54:44):
about them we're starting to see these little things
like the superstitions like spitting on the broom like everybody does that now
I found out like our little superstitions and stuff but I agree with you I agree
with you overall I do have to cut in really quick I do have to get get going
i'm a little bit over my hour okay well

(55:05):
This is probably a good place to wrap it sorry no problem this has been a wonderful
interview though and i feel that i've learned a lot please tell people where
they can find out more about you and get your.
Book well you can find out lots about us on romanistanpodcast.com and you can

(55:25):
listen to our podcast anywhere you get podcasts.
And also Paulina's website is romaniholistic.com.
Mine is jessminavantila.com. And you can find us both on Instagram,
probably more than other social media, but we're on all the social medias.
And you can get our book anywhere books are sold online.

(55:46):
And also it'll be in stores October 7th. And ask your local library and small bookstores for sure.
But yeah, Yeah, thank you so much for having us. This was so much fun.
You asked such insightful questions.
Thank you. And if you have time, one last question. What's one fortune-telling
tip you can offer people who are doing their own readings? But if you need to go now, that's okay.

(56:08):
I love this question. All right, well, you go first, yes.
So I think my favorite tip is if you're reading for someone else,
this sounds so obvious, but never apologize unless you do something actually
offensive. But I've met a lot of readers who are like, oh, I'm so sorry.
I'm not totally sure about this. Or like, I'm sorry, I don't exactly predict

(56:30):
the future. Never, never apologize.
Even if you're running a couple minutes late, it's more of a like,
thank you so much for being patient. Come with me and just be confident in what you do.
And if you forget what something means, whatever thought is available to you
is what you're supposed to tell them. So don't apologize.
That's great life advice too.
You.

(56:50):
I think my advice is to stay chill.
I feel that we get so nervous, like, still now, like, now I'm so good.
Like when I work in stores where there's other readers, which I'm not currently
doing at the moment, but when I, when I am, I feel like

(57:10):
I guess the, you know, people come in and but whatever it is,
like the skeptics, I'm saying they always give the skeptics to me,
because they know that I'm just so good at dealing with people that are skeptics.
I think people should understand it as a spiritual practice.
So as you begin your reading, if you're if you're dealing with a difficult person,
or whether you think they're even difficult or not, just to connect with just start off by saying,

(57:35):
hey, like, this is our, you know spiritual this is
a spiritual cultural practice so we just hope that you can
be open throughout the process so i kind of like call it
out as soon as it's there you know or if someone's like
tense don't take it personal they're probably nervous about their own life or
whatever it is and knock on wood i've never had this you know before but if

(57:57):
someone actually doesn't like you it's not the end of the world like oh well
someone doesn't like you move on to the next that was my advice also
Good life advice all right well well this has been a this has been awesome podcast
thank you both very much and great great luck great luck with your book as well
thank you all right okay bye bye.

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