Ep. 217: Jim Morrison, Secret Teacher of the Occult—With Paul Wyld

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker0: Thanks for hanging in there. (01:06):
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Speaker1: I am super excited about this podcast. This is an awesome topic. (01:07):
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Speaker0: Yeah, I know. I've been pumped to meeting you. (01:11):
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Speaker1: Awesome. And I have your book right here. So yeah, let's just get into it. (01:14):
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Speaker1: Please tell the audience about (01:18):
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Speaker1: who you are and your book, Jim Morrison's Secret Teacher of the Occult. (01:19):
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Speaker0: Yeah. So I would think that I would have to say that this started in 2016. (01:24):
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Speaker0: I moved back to Los Angeles from Boston. And looking back, I realized I was (01:31):
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Speaker0: beginning what is a classic dark night of the soul. (01:36):
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Speaker0: And I just want to come back to myself. And I realized I was at a place in my (01:41):
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Speaker0: life where I'd always wanted to explore the occult and esotericism. (01:45):
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Speaker0: It had always been in the back of my mind and I'd always been into it in various ways. (01:50):
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Speaker0: Ways, but I really wanted to find a text that I could really learn from, (01:55):
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Speaker0: that I knew was something that was spoken with authority, and I found that with (02:01):
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Speaker0: Secret Teachers of the Western World by Gregory Lackman. (02:06):
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Speaker0: And that book changed my life. (02:09):
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Speaker0: As I was reading it, it was helping me to get back in touch with myself. (02:13):
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Speaker0: And i just kept thinking about (02:18):
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Speaker0: jim morrison and the more i began (02:21):
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Speaker0: to learn about the western esoteric tradition (02:24):
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Speaker0: the more the lights came on you know not just regarding my own life but you (02:27):
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Speaker0: know regarding his life as well and i just kept writing jm in the in the um (02:32):
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Speaker0: sides of the you know the page sides as i read until by the end of the book (02:36):
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Speaker0: i'm like wow this is really compelling like Like, you know, we, we, I don't really, (02:39):
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Speaker0: I haven't seen anybody really place Jim Morrison in this way to seem to this way. (02:44):
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Speaker0: And, you know, I've done a few podcasts before yours and like on this podcast, (02:51):
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Speaker0: like the gloves are going to come off about how I read. (02:55):
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Speaker1: Okay, good. (02:57):
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Speaker0: And I really think that. The podcast for it. Exactly. (02:59):
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Speaker0: We really just need to sweep away everything that we know about Jim Morris and (03:02):
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Speaker0: that has come through us through Hollywood and the whole music industry and everything like that. (03:07):
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Speaker0: Because the person that I discovered, the right way to see him is through the (03:11):
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Speaker0: lens of the Western esoteric tradition. (03:15):
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Speaker0: And in doing so, keep in mind what Colin Wilson once said, that there's the (03:17):
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Speaker0: worm's eye view and there's the bird's eye view. (03:23):
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Speaker0: The worm's eye view, it's when you're very up close to things. (03:26):
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Speaker0: It's a dark and subjective view. But when you back up with the bird's eye view, (03:28):
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Speaker0: it's suddenly the lights come on and you can see the whole picture of this. (03:32):
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Speaker0: And he likened that to being in an art gallery. You can step back and you can see the whole thing. (03:36):
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Speaker0: And for Jim Morrison's life, that's what secret teachers did for me. (03:42):
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Speaker0: That's what learning about the Western esoteric tradition did for me. (03:47):
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Speaker0: For instance, the way Jim Morrison is portrayed in Oliver Stone's film. (03:52):
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Speaker0: First of all, Ray Manzarek hated that movie. I learned that Oliver Stone had (03:57):
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Speaker0: been thrown off the set and banned from the set, because Ray Manzarek was so (04:01):
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Speaker0: furious as to how Jim Morrison was being presented. (04:05):
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Speaker0: I was also fortunate enough in my research to become friends with Bill Cosgrave, (04:09):
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Speaker0: who wrote a very revealing book about his time with Jim Morrison called, (04:13):
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Speaker0: Jim Morrison, Mary and Me. (04:16):
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Speaker0: He was in love with Mary Ward below, Jim Morrison, our sweetheart. (04:18):
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Speaker0: But he saw that her and Jim were more of an item. (04:22):
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Speaker0: And when he talked about the film with Mary Warblow, she said that that's only (04:25):
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Speaker0: 25-30% of Jim. Like the rest of him is missing. (04:31):
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Speaker1: Okay. Okay, let's get into it. I have two, well, that brings up two questions. (04:35):
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Speaker1: One is, what was it that, you know, what is your argument for placing Jim Morrison (04:41):
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Speaker1: within the Western esoteric tradition? (04:47):
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Speaker1: Position as other than it you know it certainly feels right but i to my knowledge (04:48):
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Speaker1: he didn't really talk about you know kabbalah or anything like that but then (04:53):
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Speaker1: the second question is you know what was it that was missing what was it that (04:58):
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Speaker1: you know why was mate ray manzarek so upset you know what was not being portrayed well (05:03):
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Speaker0: It was just what was not being portrayed was was the polite degenerate the erudite (05:08):
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Speaker0: the very sophisticated jim morrison you know jim morrison did not throw Pamela (05:12):
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Speaker0: Curzon, his girlfriend, into a closet and set it on fire like in the movie. (05:18):
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Speaker0: They did not meet at the canals in Venice Beach that way. (05:22):
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Speaker0: He wasn't always this drunken, out-of-control person in public, all of those things. (05:26):
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Speaker0: Now, as far as the Western esoteric tradition, Jim Morrison's overall role, (05:35):
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Speaker0: when I could see, is that he felt compelled. (05:40):
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Speaker0: Well, first of all, a secret teacher is someone who is in touch with that other (05:43):
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Speaker0: reality that we can't see, the unseen world, right? Right. (05:46):
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Speaker0: And secret teachers, as far as the way Gary Lackham presents it in his book, (05:49):
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Speaker0: they come to a point after a stormy search for themselves where they overcome (05:54):
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Speaker0: their fears about how other people are going to see how they feel or what they (05:58):
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Speaker0: think about this other reality. (06:03):
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Speaker0: Because there's always a fear about, you know, they're going to call you crazy (06:06):
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Speaker0: or something like that. And then they need to find a way to express themselves. (06:09):
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Speaker0: And Jim Morrison chose to do this artistically and you (06:13):
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Speaker0: know once he he got over the fear of because he was quite (06:16):
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Speaker0: fearful about how other people would view really yeah (06:19):
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Speaker0: and it took him you know a long while (06:23):
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Speaker0: on stage you know to open up to the audience but once (06:26):
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Speaker0: they overcome that fear then they they get to their mission in (06:29):
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Speaker0: life was to which is to wake us up to that other reality and (06:32):
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Speaker0: that that's the pattern with all the teachers throughout the (06:35):
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Speaker0: western esoteric tradition it takes them a while to (06:38):
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Speaker0: open up to overcome that fear and then they (06:41):
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Speaker0: can find places in the culture which they can (06:44):
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Speaker0: find validation for their work and what they're doing and people (06:47):
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Speaker0: can see what they're about and unfortunately there's always (06:50):
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Speaker0: you know that element in culture that that wants to put them down that wants (06:53):
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Speaker0: to persecute and sometimes execute them I haven't executed in Jim Morrison's (06:56):
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Speaker0: life it's this pattern to a tee I'm actually really amazed that and nobody has (07:02):
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Speaker0: like I'm sure people have picked up on this, (07:08):
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Speaker0: I'm sure there are people during his lifetime like Colin Wilson who actually (07:10):
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Speaker0: began writing the occult. (07:14):
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Speaker0: After he was approached by Random House to begin writing it in 1968, (07:17):
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Speaker0: I'm sure while he was writing and learning about the doors, he could sense that (07:22):
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Speaker0: Jim Morrison was the person he was writing about. (07:25):
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Speaker0: I'm sure many creative people and artists since his time had been, (07:28):
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Speaker0: this person is very awake, this person is quite esoteric in their way. (07:31):
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Speaker0: I don't think what I've done is anything new. (07:35):
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Speaker0: What I wanted to do was to really show a new generation of people turning on (07:38):
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Speaker0: the doors, is a village connection to jim morrison that he's more than just (07:43):
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Speaker0: a rock star like this is a person that comes along every 100 150 years. (07:47):
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Speaker1: Yeah i think so like reality (07:51):
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Speaker1: yeah one of (07:54):
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Speaker1: the one of the things about the doors that i they they're (07:57):
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Speaker1: eternal they sound like they could have been recorded now (08:00):
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Speaker1: and they sounded like they could have been recorded now in the 90s when (08:04):
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Speaker1: i was first listening to them it's amazing and and (08:07):
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Speaker1: i think that when i was first attracted to (08:10):
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Speaker1: the occult i mean the doors were a big part of it (08:13):
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Speaker1: i mean waiting for the sun was a big part of that and (08:16):
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Speaker1: jim morrison certainly at (08:19):
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Speaker1: that time symbolized not it wasn't isn't like somebody (08:23):
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Speaker1: that necessarily would learn technical stuff from (08:25):
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Speaker1: but somebody who he like is the occult he embodied the what (08:28):
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Speaker1: the occult is or the ideal of what it could be and in and in a way that is not (08:31):
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Speaker1: particularly new as you pointed out in that he's very much a pan figure he's (08:36):
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Speaker1: very much a dionysian figure consciously so you know within working within that (08:39):
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Speaker1: kind of i guess maybe we call that orphic tradition or greek tradition i don't know (08:45):
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Speaker1: but is is like very much a character from the western literary canon that he's embodying yes Yes. (08:50):
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Speaker0: It kind of calls to mind what Jimmy Page said about himself is that, (08:58):
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Speaker0: you know, I wasn't into magic. (09:02):
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Speaker0: Like, I became magic, you know, when I was a Zeppelin, because he's an Abathelomite, right? (09:04):
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Speaker0: But with Jim Morrison, he kind of reminds me of the ancient Egyptians. (09:09):
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Speaker0: Like, the ancient Egyptians did not have religion. The ancient Egyptians were religious. (09:13):
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Speaker0: They viewed Egypt as a reflection of heaven, and that's where we get, (09:17):
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Speaker0: you know, as above, so below, right? Hermes, Trismegistus. (09:21):
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Speaker1: Really? I didn't know that. Right. (09:24):
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Speaker0: And with Jim Morrison being an occult figure, so after reading Secret Teachers, (09:27):
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Speaker0: I came upon a video I found on YouTube of a friend of his when he was at FSU (09:33):
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Speaker0: named Ed Martin and their roommates. (09:38):
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Speaker0: And he gave Ed Martin a book as a Christmas gift in 1963 called The History (09:41):
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Speaker0: of Magic and the Occult by Kurt Seligman. (09:47):
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Speaker0: And immediately I thought, there's got to be a connection between that book (09:49):
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Speaker0: and what I read with Secret Teachers. (09:53):
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Speaker1: Isn't that one of the ones that Hitler read (09:55):
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Speaker0: I don't know, possibly. Kurt Selleck. (09:58):
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Speaker1: That may be the one that Hitler read. (10:01):
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Speaker0: Jeez. (10:04):
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Speaker1: Yeah, okay, anyways. I'm not positive about that, but go ahead. (10:05):
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Speaker0: I'm trying to do with Jim Morrison's life what we've been trying to do in Nietzsche's (10:09):
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Speaker0: life, get Nietzsche's philosophy away from this whole association with Nazism, right? (10:12):
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Speaker1: Okay. (10:17):
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Speaker0: Again, he might have read it, right? This is something like Hitler, (10:19):
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Speaker0: if he had actually stuck with this being an artist, he probably actually would (10:22):
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Speaker0: have turned out to be a good artist if he just, you know, got over himself in Vienna, right? (10:26):
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Speaker1: Right, right. Bruised. (10:29):
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Speaker0: Exactly. So I immediately thought that there's a relationship between, (10:31):
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Speaker0: you know, Seligman's book and Secret Teachers, and there was. (10:36):
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Speaker0: Like Seligman's book is one of the first, you know, written accounts of the (10:40):
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Speaker0: Western esoteric tradition. (10:43):
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Speaker0: And Seligman was a surrealist artist who came over to New York, (10:44):
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Speaker0: like many of the surrealist artists in France, you know, to escape World War II. (10:49):
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Speaker0: And they mingled with all the native painters which is in the era of Jackson Pollock. (10:53):
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Speaker0: Out of all that, we got abstract expressionism in art. (10:57):
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Speaker0: After seeing this video, because he was auctioning this book off, (11:02):
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Speaker0: I went and found Seligman's book online on the Internet Archive, and I read it closely. (11:06):
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Speaker0: I'm like, wow, this is just basically another account of the Western esoteric (11:11):
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Speaker0: tradition as Kurt Seligman saw it. (11:15):
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Speaker0: Except I like this book because Kurt Seligman was a really good artist, (11:17):
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Speaker0: and the book has a real artistic touch to it, And I see how it would have touched Jim Morrison. (11:22):
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Speaker0: So here's Jim Morrison. He's a teenager in Alexandria, Virginia. (11:27):
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Speaker0: He finds a spoke in the library. He keeps it. (11:32):
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Speaker0: And it's teaching him all about the Western esoteric tradition that began in ancient Alexandria. (11:35):
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Speaker0: And Jim Morrison had a deep fascination and admiration for Alexander the Great, who founded it. (11:42):
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Speaker0: Alexander the Great's teacher was Aristotle. And Aristotle taught him as a boy (11:49):
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Speaker0: that all human beings have a deep desire to know. (11:53):
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Speaker0: And in honor of that, he created the city of Alexandria where the great library (11:56):
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Speaker0: was built, a place I think Jim Morrison would have felt right at home. (12:00):
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Speaker0: And it just, I'm not going to say that Jim Morrison's reincarnated, (12:04):
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Speaker0: but they were both sons of great military leaders. (12:07):
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Speaker0: Philip II of Macedon and his father was George Morrison, was an aircraft carrier (12:12):
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Speaker0: captain, captain present in (12:16):
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Speaker0: the battle of the Colton Gulf of Tonkin that started off the Vietnam war. (12:18):
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Speaker0: And he became a rear admiral. (12:22):
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Speaker0: Except Jim Morrison wasn't going to go into the Navy. He felt something completely different. (12:25):
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Speaker0: It was almost as if he was picking up where Alexander the Great had left off. (12:31):
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Speaker0: Alexander was upset that he had no more worlds left to conquer, (12:35):
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Speaker0: but the only world left was to rediscover that other reality that Aristotle (12:40):
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Speaker0: had alluded to, which is exactly what Jim Morrison was doing with his reading. (12:44):
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Speaker0: This person read intensely. (12:50):
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Speaker0: This person read with a great deal of concentration, and they were inspired (12:52):
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Speaker0: by Franz Kafka to keep journals and to be regular about it. (12:56):
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Speaker0: So as he's reading, and remember, this person has an IQ of 149, (13:00):
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Speaker0: so they're retaining everything that they read, and they're writing about it, (13:04):
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Speaker0: and they're also writing about how he's reacting to everything that he reads. (13:08):
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Speaker0: And also, it seems like from age 13 on, he's also going through a spiritual (13:14):
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Speaker0: awakening, judging by the kind of behavior that's reported, and no one here (13:18):
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Speaker0: is out alive. What was that? (13:22):
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Speaker1: I mean, did he write about that or that's something you've inferred? (13:25):
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Speaker0: Well, I began to ask myself, like, so he was doing things like telling walkers (13:29):
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Speaker0: to his high school teachers to get out of class just to go read. (13:34):
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Speaker0: I mean, he was asked to join the most popular fraternity in his high school, and he turned it down. (13:37):
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Speaker0: And his behavior was sometimes really eccentric with his high school girlfriend, Tanya Martin. (13:42):
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Speaker0: There was also something that he would not talk about with his family or her. (13:48):
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Speaker0: And she insisted that he talk to a Presbyterian minister about it. (13:53):
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Speaker0: We don't know what they talked about to this day, but I'm sure definitely a (13:57):
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Speaker0: part of it was his spiritual awakening was becoming so intense that it was probably (14:01):
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Speaker0: kind of concerning and frightening to him, and that maybe was partly what he (14:06):
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Speaker0: needed to talk to somebody about. (14:10):
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Speaker0: At the same time, he's very afraid to let people into his inner world because (14:12):
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Speaker0: they're going to see how tumultuous and different it is, and they're never going (14:16):
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Speaker0: to look at him the same again. So he's very guarded about his private life this way. (14:20):
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Speaker0: I mean, he's going to the Library of Congress and he's checking out 14th, (14:26):
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Speaker0: 15th, 16th century texts on demonology. Okay. (14:29):
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Speaker1: This is when he's in high school? (14:33):
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Speaker0: This is when he's in high school and he's going to all the bookstore bookshops (14:36):
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Speaker0: around Washington DC and Alexandria where he's living. (14:39):
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Speaker0: He's really out of the way of bookshops and bringing home all of these titles (14:42):
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Speaker0: that later on have become canons of people like your viewers and you and I would go forward read. (14:47):
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Speaker0: One of them was Colin Wilson's The Outsider, which was published in 1906. (14:56):
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Speaker0: Which examines all the great romantic personalities of the past. (15:01):
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Speaker0: Jim Wilson really saw him stealth because Colin Wilson was fascinated with why (15:05):
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Speaker0: these romantic personalities were experiencing, (15:11):
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Speaker0: what he called peak experiences, these great highs and then they fell into these (15:14):
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Speaker0: lows that would lead to depression, and terminal illness, and suicide. (15:17):
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Speaker0: He talks about Van Gogh, he paints the starry night and that's an expression (15:22):
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Speaker0: of a peak experience, and the world around you is just heightened. (15:26):
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Speaker0: And then a year later, you know, he commits suicide and he leaves in the suicide (15:29):
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Speaker0: note that misery is just going to go on and on that's very much related to what (15:33):
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Speaker0: Jim Morrison says in American prayer, (15:38):
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Speaker0: you know, could any hell be more horrible than now and re that is a similar out view of view in life. (15:39):
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Speaker0: And there's also a documentary color, Jim Morrison, three hours for magic, (15:46):
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Speaker0: or Robert says one night that him and John Densmore, it's been an entire night. (15:49):
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Speaker0: Trying to talk about a committing suicide. saw it and before (15:55):
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Speaker0: the the sun came up he went for a walk and (15:58):
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Speaker0: he came back in a completely different mood completely euphoric (16:01):
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Speaker0: and he had written all the lyrics to people strange you know just like that (16:04):
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Speaker0: so this this is a person who had intense highs and lows like we all have our (16:09):
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Speaker0: peak experiences but for secret teachers like him their their peak experiences (16:15):
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Speaker0: are himalayan in nature but their Their falls are also, (16:19):
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Speaker0: they're really long and they're really hard. (16:24):
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Speaker0: It just was not easy being this person at all. (16:29):
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Speaker1: Why did Colin Wilson think that, or why do you think that is? (16:32):
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Speaker0: The highs and the lows? (16:36):
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Speaker1: Yeah. (16:37):
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Speaker0: So peak experience is like, there are moments, well, in East of Eden, (16:39):
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Speaker0: written by John Stenvec, he talks about these things we have called glories. (16:44):
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Speaker0: And you can talk about a lot of person, you know, the joy in their life, (16:48):
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Speaker0: how many glories that they have. (16:51):
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Speaker0: And I think he's definitely referring to what Colin Wilson was saying, (16:53):
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Speaker0: are your peak experiences. (16:57):
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Speaker0: They're like these beautiful, rich moments that put you in touch, (16:58):
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Speaker0: you know, with that other reality. (17:02):
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Speaker0: And from the romantics, when they discovered this, you know, (17:04):
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Speaker0: they were, They would center their lives around doing their best to come back (17:08):
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Speaker0: to this other reality, these peak experiences where everything was just beautiful. (17:13):
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Speaker0: And Colin Wilson refers to a phrase by G.K. Chesterton that is the absurd good news. (17:19):
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Speaker0: It's this beautiful, overwhelming feeling of being in touch with life and the (17:26):
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Speaker0: soul and everything all at once, and then it just goes. (17:32):
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Speaker0: And Colin Wilson was fascinated by this. and he (17:34):
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Speaker0: he wanted to see if you could actually induce peak experiences (17:38):
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Speaker0: where abraham maslow said no you can't do that but colin wilson said no i think (17:41):
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Speaker0: you can and i think you can too i think any he created an entire philosophy (17:46):
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Speaker0: around this called the new existentialism which occupied him like you know pretty (17:51):
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Speaker0: big experiences seem to be what he wrote about you know throughout like his (17:55):
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Speaker0: this huge array of books that he wrote. (17:59):
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Speaker0: So I think Morrison was like that. He was someone who saw this incredible beauty (18:02):
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Speaker0: just like always past romantic. (18:09):
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Speaker0: That's where the poetry comes from. That's where the music comes from. (18:11):
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Speaker0: He always wanted to get back to that. He could see that that's where life was, (18:16):
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Speaker0: that's where his fulfillment was, that's what he wanted to express. (18:20):
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Speaker0: At the same time, he was someone who was also aware of the robot. (18:24):
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Speaker0: He was, uh, in him, you know, that, that part of us that puts us on autopilot, (18:28):
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Speaker0: that part of us that if we don't be care, if we're not careful, (18:32):
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Speaker0: you know, we can get put to sleep and, and, and Colin Wilson's biography of, (18:35):
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Speaker0: um, of Gary Lachman called beyond the robot. (18:40):
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Speaker0: Gary Lachman talks that we have to guard against something called that the slide into the Gulf. (18:43):
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Speaker0: And I think now more than ever with all the distractions that we have, (18:48):
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Speaker0: well, that slide into the Gulf is, is more, more prone to that than ever before. (18:51):
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Speaker0: Like Yeah, I agree with you. (18:56):
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Speaker1: Last time I was talking to Gary Lockman, actually it was like a month ago, (18:58):
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Speaker1: we were talking about that. (19:02):
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Speaker1: He was talking about Gurdjieff's exercises for keeping people out of that slide and waking up. (19:04):
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Speaker1: And we both agreed. It's like now let's just take somebody's cell phone away (19:09):
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Speaker1: for a week and that'll definitely shock somebody back into some level of awareness, (19:12):
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Speaker1: hopefully. But yeah, no, I agree. (19:17):
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Speaker1: I think that there's more access to information now than probably ever before. (19:20):
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Speaker1: Or we can have conversations like this. (19:25):
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Speaker1: It's an incredible time for the explosion of consciousness. (19:27):
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Speaker1: At the same time, there's more distractions and more competing for that attention (19:30):
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Speaker1: than ever before. So it's a new set of challenges. (19:33):
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Speaker0: Yeah, I have a 19-year-old daughter. She's at a North Arizona state and we're talking about this. (19:37):
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Speaker0: And she said, it seems to be like too much information. There are just too many choices. (19:42):
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Speaker0: So I guess one of the challenges of living right now is, it would be just so (19:47):
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Speaker0: interesting if Jim Morrison were alive, what he'd have to say about everything (19:52):
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Speaker0: that's going on right now. (19:55):
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Speaker0: We have all this information, but in some ways, it's just like reading the dictionary. (19:59):
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Speaker0: If you don't have any reference for all of this right reference (20:05):
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Speaker0: for like the things that are going on so hopefully people (20:08):
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Speaker0: are going to return to books they're going to return to you know writers (20:11):
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Speaker0: like gary lackman and colin wilson you know (20:15):
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Speaker0: that seem to have made it their their (20:18):
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Speaker0: life to to write books to give us perspective on on (20:21):
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Speaker0: these kind these kinds of things like you know (20:24):
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Speaker0: like spiritual awakening and peak experiences and that other (20:27):
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Speaker0: reality i really think now with the (20:30):
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Speaker0: freedom of the internet and all of this is (20:34):
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Speaker0: that at the same time that we're all waking up because (20:37):
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Speaker0: what happened to 60s is coming back again (20:40):
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Speaker0: now I've noticed like in a really really way and (20:42):
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Speaker0: but I so that's like the first popular cult awakening that ever happened the (20:46):
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Speaker0: Western world like so many like calm Wilson noticed this like him and he landed (20:51):
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Speaker0: America nearly 60s like wow like people are really opening up to like into yoga (20:54):
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Speaker0: into witchcraft and spirituality esotericism and his explosion of cult bookstores, (20:59):
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Speaker0: and he noticed that this had not happened before, and he thought it was quite remarkable. (21:03):
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Speaker0: And that's probably what made it. (21:09):
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Speaker0: A time for for jim morrison to be understood (21:12):
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Speaker0: and accepted i like that phrase that gary lackman uses in secret teachers the (21:15):
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Speaker0: western world when he talks about you know life after world war ii he says that (21:18):
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Speaker0: people were open to that which is new alien and other and you know if there's (21:23):
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Speaker0: anyone who is more new alien and other in rock music it would be jim morrison right. (21:28):
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Speaker0: That that time is just you know we're just ready for for people to appreciate (21:33):
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Speaker0: that they're ready for the unknown. (21:37):
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Speaker0: And now that's happening in a way that we've never seen before. (21:39):
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Speaker0: I think at the same time, it's great that we're all awakening. It's all fantastic. (21:44):
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Speaker0: But we also have to remember that there's forces out there that they don't want us to awake. (21:49):
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Speaker0: They don't want us to discover our divinity. They don't want us to be in touch (21:55):
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Speaker0: with the unseen world, with the spirit world. (21:59):
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Speaker0: They don't want us to discover all of this because it's very empowering. (22:01):
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Speaker0: And when this happens, they lose control over all the minds. (22:05):
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Speaker0: And to me, the age of Aquarius is rising, right? Like technology and all that. (22:09):
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Speaker0: We also remember that we're in the dying age, the dying area of like the age of Pisces. (22:13):
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Speaker0: You know, the dying of the age of Aries was like, you know, the Roman Empire. (22:19):
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Speaker0: Like that was a war on the body with legions and crucifixion and all of this. (22:24):
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Speaker0: The dying of the age of Pisces is a war on the mind. Like we, (22:28):
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Speaker0: so much is coming through all this Aquarian technology that, (22:32):
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Speaker0: that wants to just really distract people and then take us into all these places (22:36):
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Speaker0: in cyberspace that really just don't have too much to do with who you are, (22:40):
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Speaker0: what we are, what the direction that we really want to go into. (22:45):
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Speaker0: Like, we have to remember, like, we're all got to be Jim Morrison's now and (22:48):
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Speaker0: come with this, I was, I was like warrior spirit to just, to fight this off. (22:51):
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Speaker1: You know, how would you describe that warrior spirit? (22:57):
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Speaker0: That's a good question. I think you have to know when to put the cell phone (23:01):
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Speaker0: down, when to fold up your laptop. (23:05):
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Speaker0: I think you have to know when you're watching too many videos, (23:07):
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Speaker0: you're texting too much. (23:14):
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Speaker0: The technology is so much fun, and it is a lot of fun, and it's great, (23:16):
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Speaker0: but it can also, like anything else, really take you right off your path without (23:20):
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Speaker0: you even knowing it pretty fast. Yeah. (23:25):
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Speaker0: Everything, like the music industry now is all about, you know, selling units. (23:29):
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Speaker0: The music industry in Jim Morrison's time was made up of Cosimo de' Medici's, (23:34):
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Speaker0: like, you know, like people like Armin Erdogan at Atlantic and Jack Holzman (23:38):
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Speaker0: at Elektra Records. I don't know about that. (23:42):
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Speaker1: Say more about that. I don't, I don't know about that. (23:44):
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Speaker0: So what made, what the reason the Italian Renaissance was happened was you have these, (23:47):
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Speaker0: you know, really enlightened people at the Cosimo de' Medici of Florence who, (23:51):
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Speaker0: you know, who had the power and the financial power to be a great patron of the arts. (23:55):
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Speaker0: This is the person who when Plethon came to him said, listen, (24:03):
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Speaker0: I think I have found something that needs to be looked at. (24:06):
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Speaker0: He had Marsilio Puccino immediately translated into Italian and in Latin, (24:10):
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Speaker0: like the Corpus Hermeticum and things like this. (24:16):
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Speaker0: Those were texts that really gave root to the Italian Renaissance. (24:18):
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Speaker0: People like Leonardo da Vinci and all the artists back then, (24:22):
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Speaker0: And they read all these things, like it broke the circuit, it got them out of (24:25):
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Speaker0: their robot at that time. And it really opened up the mind. (24:28):
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Speaker0: So I'm off on a tangent here, I forgot what it was. (24:33):
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Speaker1: I was asking, how was the music industry in the 60s like? It was a patronage system? (24:36):
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Speaker0: Right, so yes, so Cosmo de' Medici was like this, and he had the power to do this. (24:42):
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Speaker0: So the producers back then, like Amon Erdogan and Jack Holisman, (24:47):
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Speaker0: these are the same types of people. (24:51):
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Speaker0: They were very cultured, they were very learned, they loved art, they loved music. (24:53):
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Speaker0: And when they saw great artists like The Doors, or like Janis Joplin or like (24:58):
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Speaker0: Jimi Hendrix, all these amazing people, they were willing to put their financial (25:03):
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Speaker0: power into them and believe in them and cultivate them. (25:08):
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Speaker0: Now that you're not really seeing that anymore. Like Joni Mitchell said that (25:12):
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Speaker0: she was at a party, the singer-songwriter recently. (25:16):
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Speaker0: That was just a couple of years ago. She said that she overheard a conversation (25:19):
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Speaker0: with these A&R people saying that we're not really looking for talent, (25:22):
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Speaker0: what we're looking for is a person who's willing to play a ball, (25:25):
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Speaker0: like a cooperative attitude. (25:29):
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Speaker0: Yeah so it's almost. (25:31):
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Speaker1: It makes sense i mean it's just it's just a more corporate way of doing things (25:33):
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Speaker1: that makes perfect sense from the corporate mindset where you're just trying to (25:36):
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Speaker1: yeah just particularly now it's like in the age where where anyone can say anything (25:41):
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Speaker1: and get canceled online i think they're more conservative and afraid than ever (25:46):
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Speaker1: so it's hard to imagine people like jim morrison or you see even like you know (25:50):
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Speaker1: it's i feel like the age of the the that type of person may be over who can be deliberately (25:54):
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Speaker1: provocative at a deep level in public. (26:01):
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Speaker1: So yeah, it makes sense from a corporate level, but from an artistic perspective, (26:03):
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Speaker1: you're going to get you're going to reliably get 7 out of 10 albums, (26:07):
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Speaker1: but you'll probably never get the 10 out of 10 that way. (26:13):
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Speaker0: Right. Like David Crosby before he died said that Crosby, Stills, (26:16):
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Speaker0: and Nash would never be produced today. (26:19):
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Speaker0: Most of the music in the 60s would (26:22):
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Speaker0: not get get produced today at all because it didn't why why specifically he (26:24):
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Speaker0: said that they were too controversial that they were too visionary and that (26:30):
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Speaker0: also they're there he said the music was like sort of too gentle on the soul (26:34):
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Speaker0: i found that to be an interesting interesting combination yep, (26:38):
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Speaker0: To go back to what you're saying, I think what we need right now is we need (26:44):
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Speaker0: to be in touch with that own part of yourself. (26:50):
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Speaker0: It's like the Cosmo de Medici from the Italian Renaissance times. (26:51):
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Speaker0: Be your own producer of things that are good for the soul and your mind. (26:56):
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Speaker0: And I think that's up to every person now. (27:01):
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Speaker0: There's really no city to go move to where there's a renaissance happening. (27:04):
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Speaker0: Hellenistic Alexandria, or Constantinople, or Florence, or Venice, (27:11):
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Speaker0: or New York, or Paris, or San Francisco. (27:16):
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Speaker0: It's what we're doing right now on the internet. internet you (27:18):
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Speaker0: know it's i'm meeting people you know (27:21):
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Speaker0: all over the world that get in contact with these mysterious ways (27:24):
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Speaker0: to instagram and all this kind of stuff you know it's really amazing i don't (27:28):
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Speaker0: know how long this freedom on the internet is going to last so you know we should (27:32):
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Speaker0: really really enjoy it because i'm i'm reading all i'm hearing about all kinds (27:36):
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Speaker0: of like you know things about what what a lot of people would like to do with the internet so yeah. (27:41):
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Speaker1: Yeah yeah yeah (27:46):
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Speaker0: It's it really. (27:48):
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Speaker1: Is a rare golden age and it's one that seems like it's going to go on forever (27:48):
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Speaker1: but might not and i think i i (27:53):
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Speaker0: I'd. (27:58):
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Speaker1: Like your optimism i'm gonna i'm gonna go with your optimism about about the (27:59):
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Speaker1: internet being having renaissance potential it's easy to get cynical about that (28:03):
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Speaker1: but i think when you take as you put it the bird's eye view instead of the worm's (28:07):
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Speaker1: eye view and you just look back over the last three decades. (28:13):
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Speaker1: Yeah, it's just this incredible explosion of human potential and creativity on every level. (28:16):
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Speaker1: And I think contrary to the cynics, I think AI is actually going to accelerate (28:21):
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Speaker1: that instead of stop the tide of human innovation. (28:25):
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Speaker1: Because you were saying everyone can be their own producer. Yeah, (28:28):
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Speaker1: anyone can make an album now, particularly now with AI, anybody can make an (28:31):
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Speaker1: album on Ableton on their laptop. (28:36):
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Speaker1: Or write a book or make an app or it's like the (28:39):
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Speaker1: it's we we really do live in a time where the means of (28:42):
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Speaker1: production have been democratized at least you (28:44):
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Speaker1: know on the at least digitally you know if not physically (28:48):
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Speaker1: i don't think that's ever going to happen physically but it certainly (28:51):
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Speaker1: happened digitally and for creative people or people (28:54):
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Speaker1: who are interested in strange ideas it's never (28:57):
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Speaker1: been easier to find like-minded people that's not (29:00):
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Speaker1: a problem anymore and we have the (29:03):
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Speaker1: the ability to put our will out into (29:06):
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Speaker1: the world in whatever artistic or non-artistic form that may be and i think (29:09):
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Speaker1: that that is in many ways that can be an era of self-expression that i think (29:15):
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Speaker1: that people like jim morrison were pointing to of course it can be the opposite too but well (29:22):
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Speaker0: Jim he did say that he kind of had a prophetic vision of the future where he (29:27):
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Speaker0: felt that then the art form of the future would be the interview you know so really when. (29:32):
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Speaker1: Did he say that yeah (29:38):
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Speaker0: He said that when he was and he was alive in one of his interviews. (29:39):
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Speaker1: That's great yeah (29:42):
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Speaker0: But he felt the art form of the future was going to be the interview and you (29:44):
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Speaker0: know here we are youtube with all these podcasts and he was exactly right. (29:47):
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Speaker1: Interesting yeah he (29:51):
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Speaker0: Also felt that they're like the next great artist you know would be someone (29:53):
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Speaker0: who was just getting out all their pain on stage and now you know that was trent (29:56):
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Speaker0: resner with nine inch nailed with all like the all the digital sounds like he (30:00):
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Speaker0: was a precursor for all of that right. (30:06):
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Speaker1: Oh yeah like the 90s it's like definitely he was he was foreseeing that that's (30:07):
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Speaker1: great yeah he strikes me as somebody that could have been like a like a college (30:13):
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Speaker1: professor or a media theorist (30:17):
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Speaker0: Trent Russ or Jim Morrison? (30:20):
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Speaker1: Well, Jim Morrison. (30:21):
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Speaker0: Yes. That's the amazing thing about him is that so he graduates in 1965 with (30:23):
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Speaker0: a degree in cinematography because his original ambition, he wants to be an (30:30):
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Speaker0: experimental filmmaker. (30:33):
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Speaker0: And he wanted to move to New York to work with Jonas Mikus. Jonas Mikus, (30:35):
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Speaker0: I don't know exactly how to pronounce his first name. (30:40):
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Speaker0: And he's considered the godfather of experimental filmmaking in the United States. (30:42):
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Speaker0: And Jim Morrison really liked him. but he (30:46):
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Speaker0: felt that moving to New York and having to get (30:50):
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Speaker0: a job and pay rent and like you know being charged with (30:52):
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Speaker0: film cameras and renting all that and doing all that he just couldn't see (30:55):
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Speaker0: himself doing that he he did say that (30:58):
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Speaker0: he felt like he could be a sociology professor (31:01):
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Speaker0: I thought if he was gonna do that (31:04):
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Speaker0: and be a poet like he kind of reminds me of like the black mountain poets in (31:07):
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Speaker0: North Carolina people like Robert Creeley he actually did like you know have (31:10):
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Speaker0: a crazy party with robert crueley and down in san diego one afternoon where (31:14):
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Speaker0: they're like smashing liquor bottles on their heads yeah so yes he go ahead is. (31:18):
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Speaker1: There any record (31:26):
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Speaker0: Of him actually. (31:27):
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Speaker1: A prac other than this reading (31:28):
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Speaker0: Is there. (31:30):
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Speaker1: Any record of him actually practicing occult techniques in any kind of traditional (31:31):
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Speaker1: way outside of you know obviously you can make the argument that his performances (31:35):
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Speaker1: were a modern form of shamanism, I don't think that's that controversial, (31:40):
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Speaker1: but is there any record of more formal practice, or of him seeing himself with that self-image? (31:44):
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Speaker0: That's a really good question. Well, certainly when he is in college, (31:53):
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Speaker0: he's writing what became part (31:57):
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Speaker0: of his first published book, A Poetry of the Lords and the New Creatures. (31:59):
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Speaker0: And there's a long first half called Notes on Vision. (32:02):
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Speaker0: And there are some really astute references to alchemy in there, (32:05):
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Speaker0: like an alchemy in relationship with cinema, with cinematography. (32:10):
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Speaker0: So with with morrison he he (32:14):
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Speaker0: saw experimental filmmaking as a way to affect (32:17):
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Speaker0: the change in consciousness that was you know that he saw a relationship (32:20):
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Speaker0: to with alchemy right and that (32:23):
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Speaker0: sounds the fascination with experimental filmmaking and that's what a (32:26):
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Speaker0: lot of experimental filmmakers are doing they're trying to (32:29):
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Speaker0: affect the change in consciousness you know through images and sound and (32:32):
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Speaker0: and all that and he liked (32:36):
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Speaker0: the power of that and so he wrote extensively about that in notes (32:39):
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Speaker0: on vision but also notes on vision he (32:42):
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Speaker0: there are really astute and fascinating observations about (32:45):
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Speaker0: american urban life and history and history and (32:48):
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Speaker0: everything like that and at the very end you have these (32:51):
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Speaker0: observations about shamanism and it (32:54):
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Speaker0: pops up in such a way where he he seems (32:58):
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Speaker0: like he has the thought that shamanism would (33:01):
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Speaker0: be a solution to to snap us back into (33:04):
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Speaker0: getting in touch with the unseen world with the spirit world and (33:07):
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Speaker0: and take us out of three-dimensional reality and just relying (33:10):
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Speaker0: on our five senses and what our what our rational minds can can (33:13):
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Speaker0: say and he almost sees it as a solution so as (33:17):
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Speaker0: far as a occult practices like jim morrison wasn't wasn't a joiner like you (33:20):
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Speaker0: know he wasn't you know i don't know if he actively sought out like the local (33:27):
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Speaker0: you know oto here in los angeles at that time or or anything like that he i. (33:30):
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Speaker0: Mean he did read extensively about magic and alchemy and witchcraft. (33:35):
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Speaker0: I think with Jim Morrison, it was more like. (33:40):
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Speaker0: How Colin Wilson expressed his way to enlightenment, which was through concentration. (33:44):
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Speaker0: And so it seems that those two have a real affinity, Colin Wilson and Jim Morrison. (33:49):
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Speaker0: Gary Lachman, those three are quite related in their approach. (33:54):
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Speaker0: And I really think that with them, their kind of occultism comes around and (33:58):
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Speaker0: awakening through really intense concentration and studying and journaling. (34:04):
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Speaker0: And that's where I think Jim Morrison's occult path will lay in. (34:10):
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Speaker0: And he said that when he was writing about shamanism in college, (34:14):
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Speaker0: he didn't realize that he would be doing it just two or three years later with the doors. (34:20):
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Speaker1: That's funny how that works, isn't it? Yeah. One thing that has always fascinated (34:24):
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Speaker1: me, for better and worse, because it's a thorny topic, (34:31):
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Speaker1: but it's fascinated me for obvious reasons, is the moment, not when somebody (34:35):
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Speaker1: goes through their spiritual awakening, but the moment for some of these people (34:42):
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Speaker1: where they decide they need to take on the mantle of waking up other people. (34:45):
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Speaker1: Or in the case of people like Jim Morrison, waking up huge numbers of people. (34:49):
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Speaker1: And what happens then? Because that moment, I think, is where that's the moment to study. (34:54):
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Speaker1: And when I say study, I mean what actually happens, not what people want to (35:01):
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Speaker1: happen or what people want to remember as happening, but what actually happened, (35:05):
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Speaker1: why things go wrong, and exactly why they went wrong. (35:10):
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Speaker1: Because it's easy you know so much mythology gets developed around these figures (35:14):
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Speaker1: and moments in history that it can be easy to see people as martyrs or see people as (35:19):
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Speaker1: Let's say romantic victims of forces that (35:29):
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Speaker1: wish people to keep the forces that wish (35:32):
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Speaker1: to keep people asleep and you can look at (35:35):
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Speaker1: people like jack parsons in in in as as (35:38):
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Speaker1: examples or jim morrison but then it can also be easy to gloss over their own (35:41):
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Speaker1: personal feelings drugs the things that they themselves may have brought upon (35:45):
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Speaker1: themselves to bring their downfall and so this is a very important question (35:51):
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Speaker1: for me as to what can go wrong and also what can go right who are Or what do people do right? (35:54):
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Speaker1: What do they get right? We're still talking about Jim Morrison now. (36:00):
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Speaker1: He still has the potential, I think, to speak to young people now. (36:03):
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Speaker1: And so, in that sense, what was the moment in which Jim Morrison decided that (36:08):
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Speaker1: he was going to take on perhaps this wider, more shamanic, prophetic role, (36:16):
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Speaker1: and what happened at that moment? (36:20):
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Speaker0: That's a really great question, because that's the great turning point in his life, right? (36:22):
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Speaker0: So he's a senior in 1965, he's slated to graduate. (36:27):
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Speaker0: That's another thing that Oliver Stone did not get right in his film. (36:31):
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Speaker0: He did not quit film school and graduated, okay? (36:34):
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Speaker0: And he had his own apartment on Goshen Avenue from Los Angeles, (36:38):
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Speaker0: that's in Westwood by the VA hospital. (36:43):
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Speaker0: And his parents, they're like, hey, you graduated, we're pulling the plug on your bills, you know? (36:46):
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Speaker0: And he was dating mary warble at the time they were both very much in love with each other (36:52):
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Speaker0: you know she was every bit the intellectual he was her iq was (36:56):
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Speaker0: higher than his and she was even more well than he was like he (36:58):
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Speaker0: got a mary warble what nicho wanted with lusa musalame but (37:02):
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Speaker0: didn't get right but she told him like all you know are books you need to go (37:05):
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Speaker0: find yourself you know and if you think you're moving in with me like you got (37:12):
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Speaker0: to understand come road so exactly so he doesn't He's not interested in going (37:16):
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Speaker0: to New York City. He hates Hollywood. (37:22):
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Speaker0: He wants nothing to do with Hollywood and he doesn't want to go get a job. (37:24):
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Speaker0: He's a typical Dynastian personality. (37:30):
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Speaker0: He just does not want to be ruled by a clock. (37:32):
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Speaker0: And he doesn't have any money, so he just basically moves to the beach. (37:36):
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Speaker0: He probably got on the big blue bus going down Wilshire Boulevard and went to (37:40):
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Speaker0: the beach and he started crashing under the Santa Monica Pier. (37:45):
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Speaker0: Now, we've got to remember that this is a very complicated time in Jim Morrison's (37:48):
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Speaker0: life after all these changes were happening. (37:53):
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Speaker0: This is when Bill Cosgrave knew him, and his book, Jim Morrison Marrying Me, (37:54):
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Speaker0: is a good portrait of what's going on with him. (37:58):
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Speaker0: He's living down at the beach. He's very, very hurt by that breakup with Mary (38:01):
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Speaker0: Warbelow. That really hurt him. (38:06):
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Speaker0: I think Mary entertained ideas of marrying him. This is 1965. (38:08):
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Speaker0: That's not uncommon to do when you leave college. (38:14):
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Speaker0: Those two had an extraordinary paranormal experience at a church in Florida (38:17):
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Speaker0: where Mary takes him to a church in Florida and basically prays for God to make (38:22):
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Speaker0: a sign that he's real to Jim Morrison. (38:30):
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Speaker0: And they're both in that church. I talk about it in this book, (38:32):
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Speaker0: from Bill Cosgrave's book. (38:35):
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Speaker0: While Mary is praying, they both see a light in the back of the church that (38:37):
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Speaker0: gets brighter and brighter and brighter until they're terrified. (38:42):
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Speaker0: And they run out of the church. (38:45):
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Speaker1: Wow. (38:47):
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Speaker0: And they tell this story to Bill Cosgrave. And after Mary told the story, (38:48):
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Speaker0: Mary got quiet and said, I'm sure that was a sign that I was praying for. (38:55):
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Speaker0: And Jim's reaction was, I don't know what it was, but it was very real. (38:59):
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Speaker0: And I think that haunted him for the rest of his life. There's statements that (39:03):
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Speaker0: I was poetry, such as like, thank you, oh Lord, for the white blind light. (39:06):
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Speaker0: That very much may be what he was referring to. (39:10):
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Speaker0: So they had an intense relationship, very loving one, very intimate one. (39:14):
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Speaker0: They shared some amazing things together and suddenly it ended. (39:19):
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Speaker0: It stopped. You're on the beach and you're broke and you don't have a job and (39:22):
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Speaker0: you're very hurt by this breakup. (39:26):
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Speaker0: And that's the breakup was what pushed him to start writing The End. (39:29):
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Speaker1: Do you know why they broke up? (39:34):
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Speaker0: Well, it was basically Mary telling him, like, you know, you just don't know who you are. (39:36):
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Speaker0: Go out and find yourself. You know, both don't know who you are. (39:41):
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Speaker1: So that was the break. That was that wasn't an open door. That was a breakup. (39:45):
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Speaker0: OK, according to what Bill Cosgrave and what he wrote, that was it. Like, OK, that's hard. (39:50):
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Speaker0: And also, I think, you know, maybe maybe Mary, (39:56):
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Speaker0: I'm sure that what happened to them in that church, that that church experience (40:01):
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Speaker0: seems to be as every bit isn't as important in its own way as when jim orson (40:05):
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Speaker0: talks about the the the dying native workers he came upon when he was three (40:09):
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Speaker0: years old that he said their souls leaped into his he felt that that moment (40:13):
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Speaker0: was like the most significant in his life i think just. (40:17):
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Speaker1: Tell that story real quick for people who don't know it or haven't seen the movie (40:19):
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Speaker0: Sure so jim jim morrison said that when he was three years old he was on a family (40:23):
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Speaker0: they wrote a strip around northern new mexico and they came came upon a traffic (40:27):
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Speaker0: accident in which a truckload of Native workers were badly injured and they (40:32):
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Speaker0: had died and they were dying on the scene. (40:37):
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Speaker0: His family came upon it. And Jim Morrison said that he felt that the souls of (40:39):
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Speaker0: one or two of those dying Native workers leaped into his and stayed there in (40:44):
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Speaker0: his soul for the rest of his life. (40:47):
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Speaker0: And he told his friends while he was making Highway and American Pastoral, (40:49):
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Speaker0: his independent film, that was released in 1969, while they were filming it, (40:54):
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Speaker0: he told them this story that the story and that was the most significant moment of his life. (40:58):
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Speaker0: I think what jogged him to tell him that story was while they were filming, (41:06):
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Speaker0: they came upon a fox that had been hit on one of the desert highways, (41:11):
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Speaker0: and it was dying there on the road. (41:16):
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Speaker0: You can see Jim Morrison by the fox that's just dying in the video footage of that. (41:19):
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Speaker0: I think that really activated going back to when he was three years old. (41:24):
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Speaker0: So he felt that that experience was was was (41:28):
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Speaker0: very very important i believe like i i think that he was he was he was right (41:31):
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Speaker0: about that and then that's the whole everything surrounding that whole experience (41:37):
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Speaker0: like where it happened and what was going on by you know those native workers (41:41):
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Speaker0: working at the los alamos national laboratory that that oppenheimer founded (41:45):
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Speaker0: to create the manhattan yeah. (41:49):
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Speaker1: I don't know about this (41:51):
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Speaker0: Yeah we'll get to that in a second let me go back to what that's That's wild. (41:52):
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Speaker1: That's wild. Okay, yeah, there's so many tangents here. I don't want you to lose your time. (41:55):
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Speaker0: There's so many tangents with Jim Morrison's life. It's hard, it's easy to get lost. (41:59):
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Speaker1: Yeah, yeah. (42:02):
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Speaker0: Back to what, I'm just like, this shamanic calling, right? That the calling (42:03):
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Speaker0: to be like that secret teacher part of himself. (42:07):
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Speaker0: I think one of the reasons, besides Mary telling him, like, hey, (42:10):
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Speaker0: go find yourself, you just know books, Mary's probably like, (42:13):
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Speaker0: he's still wrestling with what happened in that church. (42:17):
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Speaker0: I'm not quite sure I really want to be with somebody that's not going to accept (42:20):
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Speaker0: the divine in the way that that happened. (42:23):
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Speaker0: It's interesting. Mary takes him to this church in Florida, and his girlfriend (42:26):
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Speaker0: before that, Tanya Martin, she's very concerned about him too, (42:31):
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Speaker0: and takes him to go talk to a Presbyterian minister. (42:35):
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Speaker0: It's interesting. There's so many spiritual things going on in his life at such a young age. (42:38):
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Speaker0: So now you're Jim Morrison, you're on the beach, and we've learned in No One (42:45):
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Speaker0: Here Gets Out Alive that he tells one of his friends one day as he's basically couch surfing. (42:49):
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Speaker0: LSD you could buy over the counter back then, so he's eating that like M&M's. (42:55):
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Speaker0: He's smoking a lot of weed, and he's writing songs. (42:59):
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Speaker0: He's writing songs, he's writing a lot on his notebooks. (43:03):
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Speaker0: He tells his friend very casually, fuck it, let's just start a rock band. (43:07):
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Speaker0: But I don't think it was that casual. There's nothing casual about this person. (43:11):
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Speaker0: I think he thought about it and I think it occurred to him that rock and roll (43:16):
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Speaker0: with its primitive roots is the artistic, very creative genius in him. (43:22):
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Speaker0: I very astutely saw that rock and roll this brand new art form you know I don't (43:28):
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Speaker0: have to go into filmmaking I don't have to just be a poor poet or a poor beatnik (43:34):
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Speaker0: I don't do all this I can bring the shamanic to the stage you know that was. (43:38):
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Speaker1: A brilliant human discovery I mean for humanity did he have any musical inclination or talent (43:44):
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Speaker0: Or training before. (43:53):
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Speaker1: That or was he just he purely decided to do that as an intellectual thing? (43:54):
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Speaker0: That's a great question. He didn't have any formal training with music, (44:00):
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Speaker0: but Jim Morrison was every bit the musician. (44:04):
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Speaker0: He heard all these songs in his mind. (44:06):
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Speaker0: Mozart said that he heard music just like marching to his mind from his right brain. (44:09):
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Speaker0: Jim Morrison was the same way. Like all of these, like what are now some of (44:15):
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Speaker0: the greatest songs in all of rock music. (44:19):
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Speaker0: You know he wrote he wrote five or six of them when he was living on that beach (44:22):
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Speaker0: in that in that couple months period before he ran into rayman's eric he was (44:26):
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Speaker0: just he heard them in his mind and wrote them down and that that's extraordinary (44:30):
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Speaker0: that's that's musical talent yeah. (44:34):
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Speaker1: Yeah there will be (44:37):
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Speaker0: Harmonies and the melodies and the lyrics like he. (44:37):
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Speaker1: Was just born to he was born to it basically (44:40):
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Speaker0: Right he's we have to remember that jim was in some with with a secret teacher's (44:42):
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Speaker0: soul that found expression with poetry and with music, because he's very artistic (44:47):
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Speaker0: and creative, that that's his nature to do that. (44:52):
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Speaker0: Some people do that like Colin Wilson and Gary Lachman with their books. (44:55):
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Speaker0: Jim Morrison did this for the part. (44:59):
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Speaker0: That time in Venice Beach, that's a period of rapid spiritual awakening for him. (45:03):
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Speaker0: It's a shamanic initiation. You know, he said that when he was at FSU, (45:10):
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Speaker0: he felt cheated if he didn't get to the cafeteria at 6 o'clock in the morning to eat all the free food. (45:14):
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Speaker0: I mean, Jim Morrison was mostly like, you know, kind of like heavyweight, (45:19):
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Speaker0: heavyset, you know, kind of chubby his life, chubby his cheeks. (45:22):
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Speaker0: You know, suddenly like, you know, all that's cut off from him. (45:26):
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Speaker0: And this is not a time where you can just go get your EBT card and things like (45:30):
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Speaker0: that. Like, you know, you're eating. He's living hand to mouth, right? (45:33):
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Speaker0: So, he just loses all this weight and becomes Jim Morrison as we know him popularly, right? (45:37):
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Speaker0: It's very interesting that he looks, that brand of, the words alluding me here, (45:46):
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Speaker0: the erotism that he was able to exude once he lost all the weight, (45:57):
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Speaker0: that he looks like the of the statues created in the very time in which that's (46:02):
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Speaker0: the energy that he wants to bring back right complete ancient minds there that's extraordinary. (46:07):
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Speaker1: That that's quite it is an interesting thing isn't it it's always fascinating (46:12):
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Speaker0: To me how. (46:17):
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Speaker1: Malleable people's physical bodies are to their intention particularly when (46:18):
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Speaker1: you start embodying energies that are larger than you (46:23):
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Speaker0: Yes and. (46:25):
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Speaker1: It's a mysterious thing (46:26):
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Speaker0: Yes and like the the body has so (46:28):
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Speaker0: much to do with it like it's the the time of the sexual revolution and like (46:31):
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Speaker0: where we're you know where we're starting to open up to sensations this way (46:35):
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Speaker0: that's one of the reasons why i keep love preaching nietzsche i mean you know (46:38):
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Speaker0: nietzsche's philosophy is is basically he said like you know all the philosophy (46:41):
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Speaker0: has been up until him time he saw it as a misunderstanding of the body then i agree with him. (46:46):
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Speaker1: On that i agree with i agree with him and i think that in many ways the whole (46:51):
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Speaker1: you can read the whole 20th and even more so the 21st century as humanity trying (46:57):
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Speaker1: to grapple with Nietzsche. (47:02):
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Speaker1: I mean, I think that Nietzsche was correct. And I think you can even get down (47:03):
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Speaker1: to things like, um, not just Colin Wilson, but the human potential movement, (47:06):
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Speaker1: the pharmaceutical industry, you know, technology, all these things that have (47:10):
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Speaker1: come out of this Nietzsche, Nietzschean ideal for better or worse. (47:13):
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Speaker1: And you can see humanity just grappling with what that means, (47:18):
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Speaker1: what that can mean, what the potential for humanity can be. And I think that Jim Morrison, um, (47:21):
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Speaker1: offered a pretty strong entry in that category, in that discussion. (47:27):
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Speaker0: When he graduated high school, in an interview with his father, (47:31):
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Speaker0: with his sister, Ann Tuning Morrison, she recalled that when he graduated, (47:38):
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Speaker0: he didn't ask for a car or a trip to Europe or anything like that. (47:42):
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Speaker0: His parents had decided to send him to St. Petersburg Community College. (47:46):
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Speaker0: They told him, you're going to go to college, but you're going to go live with (47:51):
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Speaker0: your grandmother. mother (47:54):
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Speaker0: and she said he just kind of shrugged his shoulders (47:54):
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Speaker0: fine just giving the full volume set of frigid (47:57):
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Speaker0: nietzsche's books that's that's (48:00):
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Speaker0: a really interesting thing for you know a 17 year old to ask for and i i think (48:03):
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Speaker0: what nietzsche means to a lot of people like jim watson is like you know with (48:10):
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Speaker0: nietzsche you get someone who is they see we're moving into this whole new place (48:14):
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Speaker0: and you Nietzsche's work, (48:20):
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Speaker0: his writings just give you that inspiration to move forward, (48:22):
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Speaker0: to become who you are, to be your own self. (48:30):
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Speaker0: I think in Nietzsche's writings is where Jim Morrison found that spirit and (48:32):
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Speaker0: that courage to go be himself. (48:37):
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Speaker0: I think that's part of how Nietzsche talks to people. (48:39):
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Speaker0: So to go back to Venice Beach, I remember that Venice Beach at this time was, (48:43):
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Speaker0: so the fashionable beatnik areas in that time was like Greenwich Village in (48:47):
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Speaker0: New York and North San Francisco. (48:51):
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Speaker0: Well, Venice Beaches were like the hardcore gritty beats. (48:54):
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Speaker0: They're every bit as talented, but they didn't care about notoriety and everything like that. (48:57):
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Speaker1: Do you, by any chance, know if he ever met Marjorie Cameron? (49:02):
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Speaker1: Because I believe she was a big figure in the scene in Venice Beach in the 50s and on into the 60s. (49:06):
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Speaker0: It's possible. I'm sure she knew people like Larry Lipton, who like Lawrence (49:13):
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Speaker0: Lipton, who wrote The Holy Barbarians, a book I'm sure Jim Morrison probably (49:17):
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Speaker0: will be read. That's quite possible. (49:21):
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Speaker0: I haven't come across anything that says that. (49:23):
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Speaker1: Just a mind flash occurred to me. Sorry, go ahead. (49:26):
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Speaker0: So Venice Beach was like the place where the tough and the greedy beats lived. (49:29):
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Speaker0: And I put on a poem that Lipton wrote in Holy Barbarians where he imagined Giordano (49:35):
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Speaker0: Bruno coming to Venice Beach at that time when he was executed. (49:42):
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Speaker0: And in a very mysterious, strange way, it just feels like he's just kind of (49:47):
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Speaker0: foretelling Jim Morrison coming to Venice Beach. (49:53):
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Speaker0: Age you know what he was there's there (49:55):
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Speaker0: are a lot there are similarities between g or donald bruno's life (49:58):
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Speaker0: and jim morrison's life that are striking and so (50:01):
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Speaker0: so so bruno well he was a kind of like (50:05):
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Speaker0: a rambunctious guy like morrison was i mean he slept around a lot like you know (50:08):
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Speaker0: jim morrison did they both had a dainese personality this way they're both people (50:12):
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Speaker0: who are trying to wake up people to you know that unseen reality to that to (50:17):
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Speaker0: that there were other worlds other other dimensions like the idea of exoplanets, (50:20):
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Speaker0: that comes from Giordano Bruno. (50:25):
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Speaker0: He's been proven right at this point. In Bruno's time, it's just like in Morrison's (50:28):
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Speaker0: time, where there was just enough going on left over from the Renaissance, (50:34):
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Speaker0: where around Europe he could find patronage and support for his work, (50:37):
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Speaker0: what he was doing, what he was about. (50:41):
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Speaker0: But also the inquisition was still going at this time and (50:44):
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Speaker0: he left to italy you know to escape persecution and (50:47):
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Speaker0: then in the in the late 16th century from 1590 he makes the mistake and he moves (50:51):
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Speaker0: back to venice and italy someone there you know becomes his patron and then (50:57):
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Speaker0: they have a falling out and he reports him to the authorities and the inquisition (51:02):
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Speaker0: quickly arrested and they they They put him in prison for six or seven years. (51:06):
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Speaker0: And then in 1600, they finally have him executed. He's burned at the stake. (51:11):
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Speaker0: That was his mistake, Bruno, going back to Italy. (51:16):
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Speaker0: To talk about that really quick, Jim Morrison is in Paris. (51:19):
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Speaker0: You're Jim Morrison, you're walking around Paris, and you've already been convicted (51:23):
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Speaker0: in Florida of doing something you did not do. Expose yourself to the audience. (51:27):
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Speaker0: Even though Jim Morrison is in Florida, you're telling him, we're going to beat this on appeal. (51:32):
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Speaker0: He's out on bond at that time. And Jim Morrison was like, you know, (51:36):
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Speaker0: I've already been convicted of this. What's going to happen to me when I go (51:39):
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Speaker0: up to Florida and I lose on appeal? (51:41):
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Speaker0: The sentence is already six months of prison, and they're already saying that (51:43):
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Speaker0: they're going to put me in a Rayford prison. (51:48):
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Speaker0: And that's a place where I can be easily killed. Okay. (51:49):
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Speaker0: So that's, you know, that's a question that Jim Morrison was wrestling with. (51:54):
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Speaker0: I think in the same way that your Donner Bruno was wrestling with the question, (51:59):
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Speaker0: is it okay to go back to Italy? (52:02):
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Speaker0: And he chanced it. And he went back to Italy. and it did not work out for him interesting. (52:05):
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Speaker1: That's an that's a great point to revisit that question of what happens when (52:09):
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Speaker1: people have that moment where they try to wake up (52:15):
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Speaker0: The world. (52:19):
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Speaker1: Or they try to you know go on a mission to change other people's consciousness (52:20):
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Speaker1: and what goes wrong and what goes right and there's obviously some clear parallels (52:25):
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Speaker1: there so we're talking about jim morrison (52:28):
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Speaker0: In venice. (52:31):
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Speaker1: Beach is that kind of like the moment where he takes on that (52:32):
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Speaker0: Role this is the moment where it just seems (52:35):
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Speaker0: to be where where possibly the the souls of (52:38):
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Speaker0: those of the dying native workers that were stirring within (52:41):
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Speaker0: them you know like this is when you're going (52:44):
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Speaker0: to become a shaman if you so in 1964 the english translation of murchie elliott's (52:47):
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Speaker0: shamanism from arcade techniques of ecstasy comes out and at a university where (52:53):
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Speaker0: carlos castaneda is teaching it's hard to believe that you not be available (52:58):
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Speaker0: in the library and i'm i I read that text closely. (53:02):
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Speaker0: To me, I think it's still the best book that you can find on shamanism. It's amazing. (53:05):
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Speaker0: I get the feeling that Jim Morrison read that pretty closely. (53:10):
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Speaker0: And in there, I noticed that when a person has a call to shamanism, (53:15):
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Speaker0: to become a shaman, it's something that is very, very difficult to run away from. (53:20):
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Speaker0: It's something that there's there's quote not to say a kind of price for not (53:24):
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Speaker0: doing that like this is your calling this is who you are you know and your call (53:31):
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Speaker0: to heal the community this way and I think Jim Morris just gave into that call, (53:36):
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Speaker0: You hear that call, Joseph Campbell talks about that in The Hero with a Thousand (53:43):
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Speaker0: Faces, which is a book that Jim Morrison was very familiar with. (53:49):
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Speaker0: Do you remember with Jim Morrison, we are talking about somebody who, (53:52):
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Speaker0: by the time they were 17, 18, had over a thousand books in their room at home. (53:56):
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Speaker0: This is a very well-read, very well-thought-out person who carefully considered (54:00):
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Speaker0: everything that they did before they were doing that. He was the consummate (54:05):
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Speaker0: intellectual slash artist slash secret teacher slash magician this way. (54:10):
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Speaker0: And he, at the same time, was someone who had the physical looks and the physical (54:15):
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Speaker0: stamina and the physical build to also be a rock star. (54:22):
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Speaker1: Yeah, that's a very rare combination. (54:26):
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Speaker0: So as the sexual revolution is happening and rock music is happening, (54:28):
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Speaker0: he can look as good as Mick Jagger and all the best of them, (54:33):
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Speaker0: but at the same time, you're getting all these other things that almost like (54:36):
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Speaker0: the culmination of all the secret teachers and the epics in the Western esoteric (54:42):
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Speaker0: tradition in this one person at this particular moment in history. (54:46):
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Speaker0: It's absolutely breathtaking, if you look at it. And so he sees this as like, (54:50):
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Speaker0: well, not only can I have a lot of fun being a rockstar, but it's because one (54:55):
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Speaker0: day he looked over at John Densmore and said, wow, do you think we can be as big as the Stones? (54:58):
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Speaker0: He loved the Rolling Stones. He said Mick Jagger was the prince among men, right? (55:03):
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Speaker0: I went to go see the Rolling Stones the first time last July with my second (55:07):
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Speaker0: half of my book, Advanced Money, and I'm watching Mick Jagger running around (55:12):
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Speaker0: the stage at 80 years old, entertaining 70,000 people. I'm like, (55:15):
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Speaker0: wow, he really is a prince among men. That's absolutely wild. (55:18):
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Speaker0: It's a lot like going to see Lawrence. Going to see them was a lot like going (55:23):
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Speaker0: to see Lawrence of Arabia in the theater. It's just, it's still incredible. Wow, wow, wow. (55:26):
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Speaker1: Okay. (55:30):
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Speaker0: Both the Rolling Stones and Lawrence of Arabia, both came out in 1962. (55:30):
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Speaker0: So Jim Morrison just saw that he can, through all these amazing rock songs, (55:35):
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Speaker0: that it also gave him the opportunity to fulfill his secret teacher's mission, (55:40):
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Speaker0: to wake us up to cosmic consciousness. (55:44):
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Speaker0: Us, like to, to wake us up to like our connection to the unseen world, (55:46):
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Speaker0: to the sphere world, you know, at the same time, he, you know, (55:50):
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Speaker0: he, he, he could bring out that shamanic part of himself that, (55:54):
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Speaker0: that needed an outlet on stage and audiences. (55:58):
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Speaker0: They, they walked away. A lot of them interviewing said, you know, (56:01):
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Speaker0: I have no idea what I just saw. (56:04):
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Speaker0: I mean, but I, I was like shaken out of something and I'm gonna be thinking (56:06):
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Speaker0: about this for a long time. (56:10):
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Speaker0: So in that, what he did worked. (56:12):
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Speaker0: And Ray Manzarek, that's one of the audience members walking out of this kid (56:16):
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Speaker0: said like, you know, what is Jamoris and the doors mean to you? (56:20):
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Speaker0: He said, freedom. It means freedom. Wow. (56:22):
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Speaker1: Wow. (56:24):
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Speaker0: Typical Sagittarius, like Sagittarius, their freedom is everything, you know? (56:25):
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Speaker1: Yeah. I'm a Sagittarius. Yeah. Yeah. So, so that's wonderful. (56:30):
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Speaker1: So, so they got famous really quick. (56:34):
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Speaker1: And one of (56:38):
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Speaker1: the things just as a side note one of the things that i've observed (56:41):
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Speaker1: about the doors that's very unique is they (56:44):
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Speaker1: occupy a place in i guess (56:48):
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Speaker1: you could i don't want to say music history because there's really really no (56:51):
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Speaker1: such thing as music history anymore because it's all streaming and available (56:54):
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Speaker1: and it doesn't really matter when it came out anymore which is really interesting (56:57):
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Speaker1: in its own right but they occupy such an interesting place in the tapestry of of you know, music, (57:02):
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Speaker1: rock music that is unique and all their own. (57:08):
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Speaker1: And I'm, you probably know Julian Cope, the musician in the UK. (57:11):
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Speaker0: Oh yeah. Yeah. Yeah. (57:16):
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Speaker1: Yeah. So Julian Cope wrote an essay on his website several years ago where he (57:17):
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Speaker1: talked about basically F you, if you don't like the doors, like he was observing (57:21):
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Speaker1: that music critics for him to shit. (57:24):
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Speaker0: Yeah. (57:26):
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Speaker1: He would say observing that music critics love to shit on the doors. (57:27):
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Speaker1: And it's just like, F you, it's like Jim Morrison was the greatest, like, how dare you? (57:30):
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Speaker1: But he's pointing to something interesting there, which is like and i (57:34):
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Speaker1: was thinking about it when you were talking about venice beach because in (57:37):
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Speaker1: a way it's also where the la counterculture fits (57:40):
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Speaker1: in with the overall tapestry of things which is it's really out there and he (57:44):
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Speaker1: but is not called is is on by like i can imagine like people who are really (57:50):
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Speaker1: into the velvet underground at the time like you know not liking the doors (57:55):
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Speaker1: It's kind of like Los Angeles punk was later in the sense that it's mainstream (58:02):
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Speaker1: enough to seem mainstream, (58:07):
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Speaker1: but out there enough that the mainstream doesn't get it, but the quote-unquote (58:09):
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Speaker1: avant-garde doesn't like it either. (58:15):
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Speaker1: And it's not considered to be like, like the doors are not considered to be (58:17):
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Speaker1: some like groundbreaking avant-garde act. (58:21):
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Speaker1: They're remembered as a popular music act from the 60s. (58:23):
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Speaker1: But they were doing something that was so much more revolutionary than, (58:27):
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Speaker1: I don't know, avant-garde East Village musicians at the time. (58:30):
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Speaker1: Bob Dylan, in my opinion. in so he they really do occupy their own zone that (58:35):
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Speaker1: in a way is perhaps safer as time goes on because they're not associated with (58:42):
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Speaker1: any movement or group at all other than themselves which is a tremendous achievement in music (58:46):
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Speaker0: I that's a that's a let's go back that's a huge question and very important (58:52):
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Speaker0: but to go back to what you're saying first of all i'd love to read this this (58:58):
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Speaker0: essay by julian cove i like him a lot i gotta find that it was on. (59:02):
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Speaker1: Head heritage's website but god knows how long ago it was i'm not sure i'd be (59:06):
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Speaker1: able to find it again but maybe if you google head heritage doors jim morrison something like that (59:10):
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Speaker0: Yeah i can't wait to read that i've also (59:16):
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Speaker0: so for people who don't like the doors like i've (59:19):
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Speaker0: you know there's just so much ignorance there right like there's a guy in austin (59:22):
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Speaker0: a guy who wrote a history of rock and roll and he lives in austin and i saw (59:25):
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Speaker0: the book came out in in 2021 when i started you know writing i was up north (59:30):
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Speaker0: in california and i was reading there's like a a paragraph in there he just (59:34):
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Speaker0: dismisses jim morrison as a drunken idiot, (59:38):
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Speaker0: you know and that's all he has to say about it was that. (59:41):
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Speaker1: Lester bang or oh wait that's grail marcus i think said that no it's (59:43):
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Speaker0: Not grail marcus and grail marcus actually wrote a book about doors that that wasn't like that but. (59:47):
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Speaker1: Did lester bang say something it was either maybe i get the two things in my (59:51):
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Speaker1: mind but i think something similar (59:55):
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Speaker0: Possibly i i haven't read anything think (59:57):
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Speaker0: about that by lester bank i don't want to name names but (59:59):
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Speaker0: this person he wrote a book a rock and roll history book and he's (01:00:02):
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Speaker0: a writer that lives in austin and he just basically trashed jim (01:00:05):
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Speaker0: morrison and so many things have been said publicly (01:00:08):
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Speaker0: by other artists like that against jim morrison and in print and i'm just so (01:00:11):
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Speaker0: sick of the ignorance i i just like you know you really really need to like (01:00:17):
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Speaker0: well first of all ray manzarek said that you know doris music is psychologically (01:00:23):
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Speaker0: deep like it's like the Bauhaus, (01:00:27):
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Speaker0: you know, you really, it really makes you think, you know, and it attracts people, you know, like this. (01:00:30):
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Speaker0: So that's one of the motivations to like, you know, to make me write this book (01:00:35):
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Speaker0: was to start to dispel the ignorance, just put it to sleep, right? (01:00:39):
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Speaker0: As far as the timelessness of The Doors, there's so many reasons for that. (01:00:44):
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Speaker0: One, their lead singer, Jim Morrison, was someone who spent his entire life (01:00:49):
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Speaker0: paying attention to artists and novels and art and things like that that were timeless. (01:00:53):
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Speaker0: He put his full faith in the eternal, in songs and poetry, and that's what he loved. (01:00:58):
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Speaker0: In there, I think he found something that was not going to turn on him, (01:01:04):
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Speaker0: that it was indescribable. yeah it was that's important. (01:01:08):
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Speaker1: That's i don't think that's a coping strategy or a disassociation either i mean (01:01:14):
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Speaker1: this is one of the things i tell people that can be a real comfort (01:01:18):
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Speaker0: Yes and you know colin wilson talks when he was in high school when he was growing (01:01:21):
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Speaker0: up that you know he wanted to write this encyclopedia about everything and he (01:01:25):
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Speaker0: came up with this phrase that it became like his magical kingdom and you know (01:01:30):
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Speaker0: all of jim morrison is his books and his journals and his poetry like. (01:01:34):
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Speaker0: That was his magical kingdom that was his private world and (01:01:38):
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Speaker0: what makes him really heroic you know that's another thing (01:01:41):
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Speaker0: in that doors movie where he has him say he has val kilmer (01:01:44):
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Speaker0: say you know i'm a fake hero and he takes a swig from his bottle (01:01:47):
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Speaker0: no jim morrison is a real hero this (01:01:50):
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Speaker0: is someone who like to be a poet and (01:01:53):
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Speaker0: to be an artist and or to be in film and on that's a very private world (01:01:56):
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Speaker0: you're either working with yourself or with a few other people and (01:01:59):
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Speaker0: you have your small circle of friends when you (01:02:02):
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Speaker0: go into rock music and you're that kind of person and you're (01:02:05):
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Speaker0: you're you're open to the public like you're just opening (01:02:09):
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Speaker0: yourself up to the world and what jim morrison did was (01:02:12):
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Speaker0: hugely generous and just opened up this entire magical (01:02:15):
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Speaker0: kingdom they had debated within himself on stage for (01:02:18):
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Speaker0: all of us this way because he had this secret teacher's (01:02:21):
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Speaker0: mission you know to to communicate he (01:02:24):
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Speaker0: basically just wanted everybody else to feel what he (01:02:27):
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Speaker0: was feeling he wanted everybody else to feel like (01:02:30):
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Speaker0: the unseen world this connection to the other reality that's (01:02:33):
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Speaker0: why it shows that's the that quote the beginning of my book (01:02:37):
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Speaker0: in the introduction when he says that reality is what has been concealed from (01:02:40):
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Speaker0: us for so long and i'm going to make it you know part of my our artistic objective (01:02:43):
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Speaker0: is to show you this reality that's been concealed from us so you can awaken (01:02:48):
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Speaker0: to your own divinity like you're not going to get instant spiritual enlightenment (01:02:53):
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Speaker0: going to the door show but. (01:02:56):
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Speaker1: You are going to (01:02:58):
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Speaker0: Wake up like it is going to be a trigger in you whether consciously or unconsciously (01:02:59):
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Speaker0: it's going to do what colin wilson said these things you're going to do it's (01:03:03):
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Speaker0: going to break the circuit and and and that's what you know jim morrison does (01:03:07):
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Speaker0: like he breaks that that circuit of the roadblock the part of like modern life (01:03:11):
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Speaker0: that puts us on autopilot you know that's beautiful yeah. (01:03:15):
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Speaker1: I mean certainly those albums are reference points you know somebody hears them (01:03:18):
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Speaker1: they They may not engage with them consciously in that way, but it's a reference point. (01:03:22):
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Speaker1: And you talk about him opening up his magic kingdom to the world. (01:03:27):
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Speaker0: And that's always dangerous for artists. (01:03:32):
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Speaker1: Because I think that when you want to share how you feel with everyone else (01:03:34):
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Speaker1: and you open that psychic zone, what people don't consider is then pretty soon (01:03:38):
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Speaker1: you get to feel what everyone else feels, too. (01:03:43):
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Speaker1: And the world ain't a happy place. And to quote Donald Trump, (01:03:45):
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Speaker1: it's a mess. It's worse than ever before. You know, that type of thing. (01:03:49):
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Speaker1: So you get a lot of psychic backlash. and particularly (01:03:52):
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Speaker1: with somebody like jim morrison who's has in (01:03:57):
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Speaker1: addition to an aesthetic mission is actually (01:04:01):
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Speaker1: trying to change people's state of consciousness their (01:04:05):
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Speaker1: souls if you will and trying to wake people up that's (01:04:08):
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Speaker1: an incredibly dangerous job and so that's kind (01:04:13):
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Speaker1: of where i'm i'm kind of keep bringing the conversation back to this question (01:04:15):
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Speaker1: of what was the cost for him and he died at 27 and I think that Oliver Stone (01:04:19):
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Speaker1: yeah I mean that's not that intelligent of a movie and I think it's really easy (01:04:27):
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Speaker1: to gloss that over as rock star excess (01:04:32):
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Speaker1: but it's Oliver Stone living out his vicarious (01:04:35):
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Speaker0: Dreams of being slower. (01:04:39):
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Speaker1: Okay well now he can live out his real dreams of being a mouthpiece for Putin (01:04:41):
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Speaker0: But anyways, (01:04:45):
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Speaker0: but. (01:04:49):
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Speaker1: That's a very dangerous job to do and it's a very dangerous thing that requires (01:04:50):
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Speaker1: a very sensitive person to do and often i think there's that's compounded by (01:04:55):
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Speaker1: the fact that you alluded to earlier which is performers (01:05:00):
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Speaker1: as they they often embody (01:05:03):
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Speaker1: on stage who they want to be not who they are and (01:05:07):
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Speaker1: you talk about this process with jim morrison of overcoming his own (01:05:10):
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Speaker1: fear of being able to open up that inner world i (01:05:13):
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Speaker1: think a lot of artists in doing that take on a persona that they (01:05:16):
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Speaker1: then can't get off which is the opposite of how (01:05:19):
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Speaker1: they are in in person they may be very shy and withdrawn for (01:05:22):
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Speaker1: instance in person but they they have a (01:05:25):
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Speaker1: braggadocio larger than life stage persona that then people expect them to be (01:05:28):
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Speaker1: 24 7 and you know it's it's a cliche that can go fairly wrong for people and (01:05:33):
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Speaker1: so i'm kind of curious about about you know what was that process like with (01:05:39):
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Speaker1: jim morrison i mean we know that he became fairly alcoholic later on, (01:05:44):
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Speaker1: but it sounds like this pressure from this case also didn't help. (01:05:48):
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Speaker0: But was there a moment. (01:05:53):
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Speaker1: Like basically long story short, too long, didn't read. (01:05:54):
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Speaker1: I'm kind of asking, what was the public reaction, positive and negative, (01:05:58):
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Speaker1: and how did that affect him? (01:06:02):
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Speaker0: Well, to go back to, to just start that, Greg, that's a fantastic question. (01:06:05):
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Speaker0: Rob McCreery said that out of all the rock stars back then, Jim Morrison was (01:06:10):
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Speaker0: the only one that the person on stage was the same person off stage. (01:06:14):
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Speaker0: He thought that was remarkable. (01:06:19):
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Speaker0: The person that you met at live performances was the person who he was off stage. (01:06:21):
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Speaker0: Kind of frightening, right? (01:06:27):
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Speaker0: So with, with, with, with, with the public, so first Tanya Martin, (01:06:30):
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Speaker0: his high school girlfriend, takes her to see a Presbyterian minister to talk (01:06:35):
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Speaker0: about the problem and doesn't want to talk about with anybody else. (01:06:40):
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Speaker0: Then we have Mary Werbelow who takes them to a church because she wants to know (01:06:42):
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Speaker0: that, you know, God is real and all that and have this incredible experience. (01:06:47):
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Speaker0: And then during the door is this, this, this man named Pastor Fred L. (01:06:50):
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Speaker0: Stagmeyer of the Evangelical and Reformed Church. church and it's very open-minded (01:06:54):
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Speaker0: minister that Jim Morrison is very intrigued by that title. (01:06:58):
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Speaker0: And, and actually, you know, he sees that he's friendly to Jim and they talk, (01:07:02):
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Speaker0: you know, they have conversation. You can see this on YouTube. (01:07:06):
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Speaker0: So pastor Stagmeyer says, you know, tell us, Mike, I see what you're doing here (01:07:09):
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Speaker0: and I like it a lot, but he also saw, you know, the what's coming in the future (01:07:13):
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Speaker0: with what Jim Morrison is doing. (01:07:18):
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Speaker0: And like, you know, you basically is giving him, you know, he's, (01:07:20):
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Speaker0: he's an older man giving a younger man. (01:07:24):
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Speaker0: He likes a lot of warning saying hey like the christian right the conservative (01:07:25):
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Speaker0: forces here in america they're they're watching you okay yeah so don't like (01:07:30):
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Speaker0: don't be naive about that. (01:07:35):
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Speaker0: And you know jim morrison he's young but he's (01:07:38):
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Speaker0: also very smart and he's also the (01:07:40):
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Speaker0: eldest son of one america's like you know most (01:07:43):
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Speaker0: most outstanding military officers you know his dad his dad actually went to (01:07:46):
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Speaker0: the navy and said listen i'll give you my resignation you know because of all (01:07:50):
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Speaker0: my son's frequent arrests like i don't want to embarrass the navy so it it's (01:07:54):
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Speaker0: it's hard to believe that jim morrison didn't have thoughts that that his flamboyant (01:07:59):
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Speaker0: rebellion you know wouldn't come back to back his dad almost. (01:08:03):
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Speaker1: Quit the navy over i can only imagine this like the strict military dad anger (01:08:06):
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Speaker1: that jim morrison was getting like i cannot imagine like the the rage he must (01:08:11):
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Speaker1: have been getting from his father (01:08:18):
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Speaker0: Yes it's that's that's so he called his father you know growing up the commander, (01:08:19):
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Speaker0: like he had this, you know, this, this all of his father. (01:08:24):
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Speaker0: And that's a very complicated relationship right there. Right. (01:08:28):
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Speaker1: Yeah. (01:08:31):
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Speaker0: And then like, you know, when his father, (01:08:32):
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Speaker0: I think the Morrison family had a very long tradition of service in the military, (01:08:35):
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Speaker0: and Jim Morrison broke that. He's not going into the Navy. (01:08:41):
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Speaker0: Jim Morrison had a Leo North node, and Leo North node people, (01:08:45):
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Speaker0: they're born to be out in front. They're born to be on stage. (01:08:49):
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Speaker0: They're born to be the champion of something. Mick Jagger has a Leo North. (01:08:52):
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Speaker0: With Mick Jagger, he's the Leo's son, and he's a Leo North node. (01:08:56):
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Speaker0: Boom, you get this amazing thing, right? (01:09:00):
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Speaker1: Right yeah so that's how you get that's how you get pink pants exactly (01:09:03):
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Speaker0: So jim morrison south node is like is is aquarius and aquarius is all about (01:09:07):
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Speaker0: you know everyone's very uniform it's like it's teamwork you know that kind (01:09:13):
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Speaker0: of thing it's the navy it's the police it's the fire people things like that and morrison. (01:09:17):
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Speaker1: I bet that had a lot to i bet he that had a lot background had a lot to do with (01:09:23):
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Speaker1: his success there he must have been very organized contrary to uh you know and (01:09:26):
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Speaker1: and regimented contrary to public opinion about him. (01:09:31):
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Speaker0: Yes, exactly. So going into the Navy, he would have had great success. (01:09:35):
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Speaker0: I'm sure he thought about it because your dad just paved the way. (01:09:39):
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Speaker0: You know, like Philip II of Macedon did for Alexander the Great, his son. (01:09:42):
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Speaker0: I mean, Jim Morrison could be President of the United States if he wanted to. You think so? (01:09:46):
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Speaker0: He was very gregarious. He was very intelligent. He understood human nature very well. (01:09:50):
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Speaker0: He would have gone. He would have had extraordinary service in the Navy, (01:09:55):
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Speaker0: and then he would have went into politics. Absolutely. (01:10:00):
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Speaker1: What a strange alternate history that would have been. (01:10:02):
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Speaker0: That's amazing. He once said in an interview that to be famous in the United (01:10:03):
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Speaker0: States, you'd rather have to be a politician or an assassin. (01:10:08):
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Speaker0: So he understood this kind of stuff. (01:10:10):
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Speaker0: But of course, that's not where his fulfillment lay. And I think he probably (01:10:13):
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Speaker0: thought about it, but he's not going to do anything like that. (01:10:18):
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Speaker0: When he said he's going to a rock band, his father was like, (01:10:21):
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Speaker0: that's insane. You don't have any talent. (01:10:25):
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Speaker0: He told him, you can see it in the interview on YouTube, you need to go get (01:10:28):
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Speaker0: yourself a job. His father thought that was just nuts. (01:10:31):
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Speaker0: So Jim always really had to be himself. He really had to get away from the past. (01:10:35):
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Speaker0: He really had to cut this off, everything going on with his family, (01:10:41):
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Speaker0: with his father in particular. (01:10:46):
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Speaker0: That's why on Soul Kitchen, he's singing over and over again, (01:10:49):
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Speaker0: learn to forget, learn to forget. (01:10:52):
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Speaker0: He himself was putting in a lot of energy and learning how to forget just so (01:10:54):
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Speaker0: he could be himself, do his thing as a secret teacher, as a shaman, (01:10:59):
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Speaker0: as an artist in that time. because (01:11:03):
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Speaker0: he really felt that he was born to do something that was important. (01:11:05):
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Speaker0: So Pastor Sagmeier gives him this warning. He sees the future coming for Jim (01:11:10):
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Speaker0: Morrison, like this young kid is going to get in trouble. (01:11:15):
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Speaker0: And there was the Miami concert where it's alleged that he exposed himself to the audience. (01:11:19):
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Speaker0: And just a week before that, he went to a production of the living theater that (01:11:24):
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Speaker0: USB in Los Angeles where they're stripping naked on stage. (01:11:29):
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Speaker0: Jim Morrison did not do that in Miami. There are no eyewitness accounts that (01:11:33):
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Speaker0: he exposed himself to the audience. (01:11:37):
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Speaker0: Now, we don't know this for sure, but evidence points to the establishment getting (01:11:40):
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Speaker0: their moment to destroy Jim Morrison, to shut him up. (01:11:46):
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Speaker0: Because they so so that concert was on march 1st 1969 and then the arrest warrants (01:11:53):
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Speaker0: were issued on march 5th and on that same day the fbi field office in miami (01:12:00):
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Speaker0: sent off their description of what (01:12:05):
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Speaker0: happened that night directly to j edgar hoover's office well and yeah and. (01:12:07):
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Speaker1: Yeah jim works i don't that's kind of heat you don't need (01:12:12):
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Speaker0: Yeah you know there's somebody you know we all know who about j edgar hoover (01:12:15):
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Speaker0: this is the time of richard nixon's presidency a very paranoid man who later (01:12:19):
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Speaker0: tried to have John Lennon turn on the United States because he was going to (01:12:23):
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Speaker0: go on tour with Abby Hoffman and do this on this big, (01:12:25):
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Speaker0: huge anti-war activist campaign thing. (01:12:29):
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Speaker0: So here was Jim Morrison like, oh God, this is embarrassing all of us. (01:12:31):
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Speaker0: His father's an animal. You know, geez. (01:12:36):
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Speaker0: So I think they took it as a moment to let's see if we can get him convicted (01:12:38):
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Speaker0: and get him in prison and possibly there he can just be really hurt or even killed. (01:12:42):
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Speaker0: The judge on the case was in Miami, (01:12:48):
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Speaker0: he was later found um he lost his judgeship for corruption you know and they (01:12:51):
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Speaker0: they sentenced uh to six months of hard labor during the convictions convicted (01:12:56):
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Speaker0: on october 1970 and he was allowed to go out you know he was freed on appeal (01:13:00):
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Speaker0: and that point everything i think changed for jim morrison, (01:13:05):
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Speaker0: They were going to send him to, you know, Brayford prison. You know, (01:13:10):
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Speaker0: when he's in Paris, he moves to Paris in March 1971. (01:13:13):
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Speaker0: And one of the places that him and Pamela Curson stay at before they move into (01:13:18):
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Speaker0: their apartment in the 4th arrondissement in the Marais was the same room where (01:13:22):
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Speaker0: Oscar Wilde passed away. (01:13:28):
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Speaker0: And Oscar, you know, he was put in prison for two years. (01:13:30):
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Speaker0: You know, he was charged with, you know, with immoral conduct and a bunch of (01:13:34):
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Speaker0: bullshit, right? But that prison term just destroyed his health. (01:13:38):
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Speaker0: And he went to Paris for similar reasons that Jim Morrison did. (01:13:43):
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Speaker0: Jim Morrison went to Paris, like, I got to get in touch with myself again and myself as a poet. (01:13:46):
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Speaker0: He told Bill Siddons, the Doors manager, before leaving, like, (01:13:50):
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Speaker0: I don't really know who I am anymore. (01:13:53):
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Speaker0: You know, I got to get away from this whole rock star image thing, (01:13:56):
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Speaker0: which he had very, very conflicting feelings about. (01:13:59):
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Speaker0: Out yeah and you know in paris he (01:14:01):
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Speaker0: he uh i think he made an effort (01:14:05):
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Speaker0: to stop the drinking and stuff like that but he's (01:14:08):
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Speaker0: in this room oscar wilde had passed away you know that that's incredible that (01:14:11):
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Speaker0: that's where they stayed incredible his asthma came back he was an asthmatic (01:14:15):
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Speaker0: and he was coughing up blood um and he also was telling friends back in america (01:14:19):
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Speaker0: i want some kind of assurance that they're not he literally said i want some (01:14:24):
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Speaker0: kind of assurance that they're not going to send me in a Rayford prison. (01:14:27):
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Speaker0: Like, he's very worried about this, and understandably so. (01:14:30):
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Speaker0: And, you know, France doesn't have an extradition treaty with the United States. (01:14:33):
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Speaker0: I mean, that's why Roman Polanski, when he fled California, his warrant is still (01:14:37):
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Speaker0: over here at the Santa Monica Courthouse because France has no extradition treaty. (01:14:40):
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Speaker0: They can't pull him back. (01:14:44):
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Speaker0: So I guess he could have just stayed if he wanted to. (01:14:46):
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Speaker0: So that, to me, contributed to his death, death was just you know the incredible (01:14:52):
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Speaker0: anxiety that this produced yeah like i can't i can't go back to my home country (01:14:58):
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Speaker0: like they're really trying to get. (01:15:03):
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Speaker1: Me well that that stress can give people heart attacks you know (01:15:05):
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Speaker1: like yes even just that stress alone can kill people and it's not surprising (01:15:08):
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Speaker1: he would be drinking again also so it kind of sounds like you mentioned the (01:15:12):
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Speaker1: the i want to kind of pinpoint the backlash here you mentioned the christian (01:15:19):
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Speaker1: right as him being warned against the Christian right? (01:15:23):
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Speaker1: Do you think that the Christian right did have something to do with (01:15:26):
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Speaker1: Absolutely. This thing in Miami. (01:15:29):
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Speaker0: Yes. In the days after that concert, that concert was March 1st, 1969. (01:15:33):
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Speaker0: The very conservative actor Jackie Gleason held a, quote-unquote, (01:15:37):
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Speaker0: decency rally at what was back then the Orange Bowl Stadium. (01:15:40):
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Speaker0: That got torn down. That's the Miami Marlins play now. (01:15:44):
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Speaker0: But 30,000 people showed up, 30,000 young people to protest Jim Morrison, (01:15:48):
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Speaker0: that entire concert that happened. (01:15:52):
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Speaker0: This hits home for me because I was born in Miami. me. (01:15:54):
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Speaker0: I mean, I was born at the same time that this trial was going on in October (01:15:58):
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Speaker0: 1970, right down the road. (01:16:03):
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Speaker0: It's interesting, my publishers in their traditions, (01:16:06):
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Speaker0: and they're founded by Ehud Sperling, and he walked into a bookstore in September, (01:16:10):
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Speaker0: October 1972 in New York and started to learn all about the rejected knowledge (01:16:15):
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Speaker0: and all the things that we're about at the same time that Jim Wilson was being (01:16:19):
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Speaker0: nailed for these things. (01:16:23):
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Speaker0: So it's a very conservative environment. (01:16:24):
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Speaker0: That it's not going to have any kind of this stuff going on in Miami. (01:16:28):
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Speaker0: Paramahansa Yogananda in 1925, out of all the cities in the country that he (01:16:32):
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Speaker0: went to where he was thrown out of, he was thrown out of Miami. (01:16:36):
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Speaker0: You know, because they thought he was bringing a love cult with him. (01:16:39):
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Speaker1: So, yeah, a very conservative, (01:16:45):
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Speaker0: Like in wrong Catholic family that was just having nothing to do with like Jim (01:16:47):
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Speaker0: Morrison or my like with him, you know, at all either. (01:16:50):
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Speaker0: Either so to go back to the (01:16:53):
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Speaker0: there was a decency rally held and then that (01:16:56):
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Speaker0: that that that furor just spread to the conservative parts (01:16:59):
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Speaker0: of the united states that you know it largely has to do (01:17:02):
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Speaker0: with like you know the christian right you know that put people like (01:17:05):
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Speaker0: you know nixon in power right and they're just (01:17:08):
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Speaker0: they're just not it's the same thing throughout the (01:17:11):
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Speaker0: western esoteric tradition they're just not gonna have (01:17:14):
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Speaker0: somebody who has this kind of hold on the (01:17:17):
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Speaker0: consciousness and attention of america's baby boomers you know (01:17:20):
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Speaker0: introducing them to cosmic consciousness connection to (01:17:23):
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Speaker0: the spirit world you know getting in touch with your own divinity and your own (01:17:26):
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Speaker0: inner light and you know going off and you know doing your own thing like we (01:17:29):
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Speaker0: can't control this like maybe this this has to stop we can't have this he's (01:17:34):
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Speaker0: he's embarrassing us like he's embarrassing the establishment with his father (01:17:39):
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Speaker0: and the navy and everything there's. (01:17:42):
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Speaker1: A counterpoint to that there's a counterpoint to that, which is don't you think (01:17:45):
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Speaker1: that encouraging the populace to engage in disassociation drugs and shamanism (01:17:48):
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Speaker1: would actually rather quite serve the status quo in that it would get them off of, (01:17:55):
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Speaker1: quite likely, get them off of protesting the Vietnam War? (01:18:01):
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Speaker0: That's interesting yeah i think you know these are these are the satan people (01:18:05):
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Speaker0: you know who are also protesting the vietnam war a lot you know the the you (01:18:10):
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Speaker0: know jim morrison's generation that was a lot of you could. (01:18:15):
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Speaker1: Argue that a lot of those people particularly the ones who got into tim leary (01:18:17):
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Speaker1: and things like that were were deactivated rather than activated by the psychedelic (01:18:20):
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Speaker1: culture in the sense that they weren't they were no longer organizing in any (01:18:26):
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Speaker1: type of actual political way they were going into the internal world and turning (01:18:29):
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Speaker1: on tuning in and dropping out (01:18:33):
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Speaker1: I'm not saying that. Well, I don't think that was Jim Morrison's message. (01:18:35):
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Speaker1: I'm just offering a devil's advocate counterpoint that perhaps, (01:18:38):
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Speaker1: you know, was this actually a threat to the system or not? (01:18:42):
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Speaker1: Not and i think that a lot has been made and (01:18:47):
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Speaker1: i don't know how i feel about this but a lot has been made conspiratorially about (01:18:51):
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Speaker1: the fact that his father was an admiral you know (01:18:55):
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Speaker1: now we have this person who's right in the middle of potentially mk (01:18:58):
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Speaker1: ultra in the scene in toluca with uh (01:19:03):
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Speaker1: in topanga canyon in los (01:19:05):
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Speaker1: angeles where people are where there's there are experiments being (01:19:08):
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Speaker1: run on what happens when you give people lsd you know we know the intelligence (01:19:11):
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Speaker1: communities that are involved in this kind of psyop research during this time (01:19:15):
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Speaker1: and we have the pi piper here as the son of one of them the biggest admirals (01:19:18):
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Speaker1: in the u.s and has raised people's eyebrows i don't know if it raises my eyebrow (01:19:23):
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Speaker1: or not but i'm curious your thoughts about that (01:19:27):
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Speaker0: Yeah i've read about the secret base (01:19:30):
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Speaker0: there in brook canyon and and in mk ultra so with as far as like you know lsd (01:19:33):
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Speaker0: like this cia tried to use lsd as a truth serum and it backfired on completely (01:19:39):
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Speaker0: like their agents are quitting because they're like i don't want to be here (01:19:43):
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Speaker0: anymore i've discovered god and i'm leaving is. (01:19:47):
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Speaker1: That what happened i thought i thought they also wanted to use it to to reprogram (01:19:50):
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Speaker1: people out of communism like in china by dumping it on the population (01:19:54):
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Speaker0: Yeah they were trying all kinds of crazy things you know with lsd like especially (01:19:59):
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Speaker0: in san francisco when m culture was going on and they were having like you know (01:20:03):
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Speaker0: prostitutes like bring you know bring men to the hotel and dosing them without (01:20:07):
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Speaker0: their knowledge and observing them and all these kinds of things you Really sick stuff. (01:20:11):
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Speaker0: The irony is that America's top spy on World War II, he saw the beauty of LSD. (01:20:15):
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Speaker0: And he actually was the one who went around dosing people, saying, (01:20:22):
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Speaker0: this is a cure for many things. (01:20:27):
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Speaker0: In Canada, they were using LSD to cure alcoholics with great success. (01:20:30):
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Speaker0: The actor Cary Grant, he did LSD like 60 times because of that military officer. I forget his name. (01:20:35):
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Speaker0: So I think once, I mean, I'm not an authority on this, but I think once all (01:20:42):
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Speaker0: those involved in MKUltra and all those people trying to do like, (01:20:47):
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Speaker0: you know, with sick agendas and how they wanted to use LSD, (01:20:50):
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Speaker0: I think once they began to see that not only could they not achieve their aims (01:20:54):
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Speaker0: with LSD, it was like a threat to what they're actually trying to do. (01:21:00):
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Speaker0: Like, LSD was expanding the mind and doing things for people that were quite (01:21:04):
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Speaker0: positive in which they were losing control. (01:21:09):
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Speaker0: And I think that's why it was fun, like, you know, outlawed in California, you know, in 1966. (01:21:11):
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Speaker0: Right after Jim Morrison was able to buy it over the counter. (01:21:17):
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Speaker0: Like, the whole mind control narrative around all of this, you know, (01:21:22):
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Speaker0: in conjunction with LSD, it's like, it's really complicated. (01:21:29):
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Speaker0: But i think jim (01:21:31):
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Speaker0: morrison saw it in a way that he could break he could break on through (01:21:35):
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Speaker0: those mind-forged manacles that william blake talks about (01:21:38):
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Speaker0: that we have in the mind like like jim morrison really opened (01:21:41):
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Speaker0: up his mind you know with his drug use it's very much tied into like the whole (01:21:44):
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Speaker0: shamanic idea but jim morrison is very much tied into the letter that the poet (01:21:48):
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Speaker0: arthur mabeu wrote paul demony in which he believed like you know the poet has (01:21:53):
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Speaker0: to make himself a seer through a prolonged disorganization of all the senses (01:21:57):
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Speaker0: the key word being prolonged, (01:22:01):
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Speaker0: you know jim morrison and jim morrison's style went (01:22:03):
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Speaker0: all the way with that like the kind of if if any of us if most people took as (01:22:06):
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Speaker0: many substances as jim morrison did there in the beginning of venice each when (01:22:12):
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Speaker0: he was initiating himself you know we we probably died i mean we probably would (01:22:16):
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Speaker0: go to an insane asylum it was like his stamina was really extraordinary i mean he's really. (01:22:19):
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Speaker1: What what i mean like what how much was he doing (01:22:25):
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Speaker0: So the average lsd day to this is probably about 300 micrograms back then was (01:22:27):
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Speaker0: probably a thousand then. (01:22:32):
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Speaker1: It was a lot stronger then right much much stronger yeah and (01:22:34):
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Speaker0: He was doing that in conjunction with like all kinds of different types of like (01:22:38):
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Speaker0: you know non-slip adult drugs are messing around with his nervous system you (01:22:41):
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Speaker0: know tampering with his heart rate his blood pressure he was really pushing (01:22:44):
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Speaker0: it just to see where all this will go So how was he. (01:22:48):
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Speaker1: How was he tampering with his heart rate and blood pressure? (01:22:51):
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Speaker0: Just the other kind of drugs that he was finding, you know, around Venice beach, (01:22:54):
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Speaker0: more like the crazy people, you know, that, that he met like Benzotriene and (01:22:57):
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Speaker0: all kinds of things like that. (01:23:01):
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Speaker0: Like just taking just, just amounts that would almost probably potentially kill any other person. (01:23:02):
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Speaker1: Okay. (01:23:08):
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Speaker0: So Jim Morrison, you're, you're talking about some of their physical stamina (01:23:09):
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Speaker0: who like, who did the breast, I mean the, the butterfly stroke, (01:23:11):
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Speaker0: you know, with ease, I mean, he was really strong. (01:23:14):
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Speaker0: He had the physical makeup to actually be a shaman. He could take this pain. (01:23:18):
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Speaker0: He really broke on through. I think with Jim Morrison's case, (01:23:26):
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Speaker0: the LSD had the effect on him that we want to have on many people. (01:23:31):
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Speaker0: I made that point at the beginning of the book, the LSD was discovered oddly enough. (01:23:37):
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Speaker0: Off at the so sandoz first you know discovered (01:23:42):
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Speaker0: not discovers it but synthesizes it 1938 puts it (01:23:45):
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Speaker0: on the shelf comes back to it five years later in 43 in (01:23:49):
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Speaker0: switzerland takes it by accident and has (01:23:52):
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Speaker0: this extraordinary experience in april 1943 also in april 1943 that same month (01:23:55):
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Speaker0: hoppenheimer is you know in the los alamos at that point where the manhattan (01:24:01):
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Speaker0: project is going on right by the site where Jim Morrison has that experience (01:24:06):
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Speaker0: with the Native American Indians. (01:24:11):
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Speaker1: Yeah, so what was the deal? They were working at Los Alamos? (01:24:13):
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Speaker0: Yeah, in April 1943, that's when Oppmeyer convened all the scientists to start (01:24:17):
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Speaker0: working on how to break the atom to create the bomb. So Ellis discovered... (01:24:21):
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Speaker1: Do you know the band Throbbing Gristle? (01:24:27):
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Speaker0: Yeah. (01:24:29):
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Speaker1: So do you know that Peter Christofferson, who was in... Jen told me it was Peter (01:24:30):
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Speaker1: Christofferson who was in Throbbing Gristle and then Coil. (01:24:34):
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Speaker1: I believe his dad... (01:24:36):
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Speaker1: Was one of the people who he was involved in dropping one of the bombs really (01:24:39):
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Speaker1: if it wasn't the I don't think it was one of the actual person but it was somebody (01:24:46):
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Speaker1: who was involved directly in his that was directly involved in dropping the (01:24:50):
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Speaker1: bombs on one of the cities in Japan so yeah another. (01:24:54):
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Speaker0: As in jen's words bizarre karma yes so i i i just think it it's extraordinary (01:24:59):
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Speaker0: that that l the the effects of lsc were discovered at this in the same month (01:25:06):
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Speaker0: and year that oppenheimer was what was going to create like you know the first (01:25:11):
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Speaker0: weapon of mass destruction and um, (01:25:15):
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Speaker0: in splitting the atom it's almost as like you know the creator is like the these (01:25:18):
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Speaker0: people need help you know this like the race needs something to like to show (01:25:23):
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Speaker0: them the beauty of life before they They go down this road or they're going to destroy each other. (01:25:26):
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Speaker0: I think that's the mysteriousness of LSD. And Jim Morrison is a part of the (01:25:31):
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Speaker0: story because those Native American workers at that time were the ones that (01:25:36):
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Speaker0: died on that accident, were on their way, were working at the Los Alamos National Laboratory. (01:25:40):
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Speaker0: You know, that laboratory was there, was the Native American tribes in northern (01:25:46):
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Speaker0: Mexico thought that laboratory was going to be there temporarily. (01:25:51):
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Speaker0: It wasn't. It's a permanent setup. up then it really (01:25:53):
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Speaker0: disrupted the native american culture there it did (01:25:56):
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Speaker0: that's why i i i brought up this i bring (01:25:59):
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Speaker0: up hamlet in this book you know hamlet predates modern man by 300 years like (01:26:03):
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Speaker0: in that play he just he wakes up to the spirit world and it it provokes him (01:26:08):
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Speaker0: to do something to make something right agent or bench at the same time he's (01:26:14):
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Speaker0: blown away he's like wow like you know he's. (01:26:18):
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Speaker0: He's put in contact with something that just blows his mind when he goes to a relationship. (01:26:21):
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Speaker0: There's more things that are dreamt up in this world than your whole philosophy. (01:26:26):
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Speaker0: And he's like, let's just give it a welcome. (01:26:30):
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Speaker0: Jim Morrison was the same way. We're all Hamlets now. We're all giving it a welcome, right? (01:26:32):
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Speaker0: And all this is going on there in Northern New Mexico, where these Native American (01:26:37):
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Speaker0: workers, it's very strange that this happens to the eldest son, (01:26:41):
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Speaker0: one of America's great military officers. (01:26:46):
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Speaker0: It's almost like the spirits are saying, we're putting you on a different path. (01:26:49):
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Speaker0: As this weapon of mass destruction is being made, we're going to have people (01:26:55):
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Speaker0: like you to remind us what we're going to lose in life if these kinds of things (01:27:00):
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Speaker0: happen. And if we keep going, you know, in this left-hand path. (01:27:05):
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Speaker1: If we keep down (01:27:09):
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Speaker0: Like the mental rational structure of conscious that we've been in as it's breaking down right now. (01:27:10):
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Speaker1: There's an interesting meta point (01:27:17):
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Speaker1: to make there just about kind of occult history, which is, I love that. (01:27:19):
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Speaker1: I love that there's a meta point to make there which (01:27:24):
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Speaker1: is kind of the you're looking at what appears (01:27:27):
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Speaker1: to be synchronicity like the los alamos thing and creating (01:27:29):
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Speaker1: and creating a narrative out of it and you're creating a mystical narrative (01:27:34):
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Speaker1: which is kind of the narrative i i think that this how people approach this (01:27:37):
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Speaker1: is core to a lot of human consciousness and and religion which is why it's so (01:27:41):
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Speaker1: interesting to point out which is you're kind of you're looking at synchronicity and the (01:27:45):
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Speaker1: narrative you're creating or the causative narrative you're creating for (01:27:50):
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Speaker1: it is one positive and two (01:27:53):
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Speaker1: involves higher intelligence that is (01:27:56):
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Speaker1: beneficial towards us that's great (01:27:59):
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Speaker1: right i feel like that's a very mentally healthy way to look at not just synchronicities (01:28:02):
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Speaker1: but you know looking back on your life and sometimes we go through tragedies (01:28:07):
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Speaker1: and it's much easier if we say well it happened for a reason because xyz happened (01:28:11):
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Speaker1: as a result of it too right but so i'm just putting I'm just flagging that, (01:28:15):
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Speaker1: that I think that's a mentally healthy approach to synchronicity. (01:28:20):
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Speaker1: But you can see the same, and I kind of touched on it with the conspiratorial (01:28:23):
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Speaker1: thing before, you can look at the same synchronicities and say, (01:28:26):
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Speaker1: oh, well, that's clearly... (01:28:28):
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Speaker0: Evidence of you know the cia did it or there's. (01:28:31):
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Speaker1: Like there's secret conspiratorial stuff going on (01:28:35):
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Speaker1: and since it's secret therefore it must be malevolent and this (01:28:37):
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Speaker1: is where a lot of people's conspiracy narratives come (01:28:40):
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Speaker1: from you can be faced with improbable coincidences and you can say god did it (01:28:44):
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Speaker1: spirits did it the cia did it you know it's like and and how people respond (01:28:49):
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Speaker1: to those things which everyone experiences in life or certainly experiences (01:28:53):
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Speaker1: looking at history especially around pivotal people like this their lives are (01:28:57):
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Speaker1: full of this type of thing (01:29:01):
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Speaker0: I think. (01:29:02):
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Speaker1: How people how people decide to see that it really does affect their quality of life so (01:29:05):
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Speaker0: I i the the mobile the more (01:29:10):
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Speaker0: i looked into jim morrison's life and all of my research and (01:29:14):
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Speaker0: their writing the more i i just felt like this person (01:29:16):
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Speaker0: is on a truly like divine path like these are (01:29:20):
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Speaker0: these are not necessarily like you know accidents (01:29:22):
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Speaker0: you know he's he's discovering uh (01:29:25):
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Speaker0: the western esoteric tradition in kurt sullivan's book (01:29:29):
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Speaker0: when he's in alexandria virginia you know all about (01:29:31):
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Speaker0: where the western esoteric tradition is born that library (01:29:34):
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Speaker0: in ancient alexandria a place where you felt right at home and (01:29:38):
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Speaker0: then you know the rejected knowledge moves from hellenistic alexandria it's (01:29:41):
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Speaker0: saved by bright and awakened people in the rise of islam i mean that's what (01:29:46):
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Speaker0: that was the nail in the coffin for like you know the library in alexandria (01:29:52):
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Speaker0: was when with the spread of islam in northern africa right. (01:29:55):
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Speaker1: And then it was is that why it was burned (01:29:59):
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Speaker0: So it was burned a few times, but the permanent end... I actually don't. (01:30:02):
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Speaker1: Know the specific history. I'm really curious. (01:30:05):
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Speaker0: In Secret Teachers, Gerlachman points out that it was in the 600s AD where there (01:30:07):
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Speaker0: had been a spread of Islam that they conquered Alexandria and they just destroyed that library. (01:30:13):
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Speaker0: And there were a few people alive at that time saying, listen, (01:30:19):
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Speaker0: don't destroy everything in that library. (01:30:23):
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Speaker0: We need to save some of those scrolls and everything. And they did. (01:30:25):
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Speaker0: It and that knowledge made its way you know into the islamic world and it made (01:30:28):
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Speaker0: its home in iran and turkey and then it's there for a while and then it comes (01:30:33):
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Speaker0: through constantinople and then it blossoms again in the italian renaissance in venice. (01:30:37):
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Speaker1: Comes through constantinople because constantinople was also destroyed by islam (01:30:41):
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Speaker0: Exactly and so i know this (01:30:45):
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Speaker0: is a crazy thing to say but you know jim morrison's life kind of mirrors us (01:30:48):
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Speaker0: where he's his his awakening happens there in alexandria you know in virginia (01:30:51):
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Speaker0: and then he he moves his way and he and then he's in venice you know it's this (01:30:55):
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Speaker0: place that um like italy like he he blossoms there in venice and like in a renaissance time, (01:30:59):
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Speaker0: it's it's remarkable that way and that's how that's how i choose to see that (01:31:06):
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Speaker0: because i think there's a there's a touch of like the divine mysteriousness (01:31:10):
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Speaker0: you know going on in this that. (01:31:13):
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Speaker1: Is cool one thing that i wanted to ask you about this may be totally spurious (01:31:15):
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Speaker1: but i i figured i'd ask you. (01:31:19):
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Speaker1: I had heard, speaking of conspiracies, I had heard around the way that one of (01:31:21):
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Speaker1: the things that accelerated Jim Morrison's downfall was that he got into Voudon in Paris. (01:31:28):
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Speaker1: You mean into what? He got into voodoo in Paris, into Voudon, (01:31:35):
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Speaker1: and got mixed up with that. (01:31:38):
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Speaker1: And I don't know if you've ever heard that or if that's just an urban legend. (01:31:40):
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Speaker1: Because I've never seen anything corroborating that, but I've seen people talking about it. (01:31:44):
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Speaker0: Jim Morris was a very curious person. So once he decided that he was interested (01:31:48):
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Speaker0: in something, he had to go right down to the bottom of it, right? (01:31:54):
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Speaker0: So it's possible that with voodoo that he did that. But I haven't read anything about that. (01:31:57):
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Speaker0: He was only in Paris for three months before he died. (01:32:04):
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Speaker1: I think there was some conspiracy book published about this or something where (01:32:08):
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Speaker1: somebody was saying voodoo. It was crazy stuff. (01:32:12):
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Speaker1: They were saying voodoo people had trapped a soul in a bottle and all of this (01:32:15):
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Speaker1: stuff i'm not saying that that any of that actually happened i'm saying that (01:32:18):
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Speaker1: i heard that and i figured i'd ask you about it if there was any fire to this (01:32:22):
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Speaker0: There are so many conspiratorial type (01:32:26):
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Speaker0: stories surrounding those three months and he was there like for instance (01:32:28):
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Speaker0: there are people in the european there are old school people in the european (01:32:31):
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Speaker0: intelligence community who feel that that massad had him killed because his (01:32:35):
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Speaker0: father was was in the mediterranean and he was with his aircraft carrier and (01:32:39):
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Speaker0: there was a very bizarre incident where the is really air force actually attacked an american ship yeah. (01:32:44):
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Speaker1: I was i was i was going to bring this up but this is this this one's a little (01:32:49):
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Speaker1: dicey question just because of the context but yeah he was but he was in charge (01:32:53):
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Speaker1: during the six-day war when the uss liberty was sunk (01:32:59):
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Speaker0: That's right and the carrier group was his father and he scrambled aircraft (01:33:02):
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Speaker0: on his carrier to attack and john mccain's father the late john mccain his father (01:33:07):
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Speaker0: was in charge of like the navy and the med and, (01:33:12):
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Speaker0: he said, don't launch that attack. Don't do that. (01:33:15):
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Speaker0: So the European intelligence community at the time thinks that possibly Jim Morrison was killed, (01:33:19):
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Speaker0: in retaliation for his father ordering an airstrike on Israel for that USS Liberty (01:33:25):
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Speaker0: attack. That's one, there's so many stories like that. (01:33:30):
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Speaker1: So he ordered an actual airstrike on Israel not to defend the ship? (01:33:33):
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Speaker0: Yes, he scrambled his aircraft carrier to launch the attack from the base where (01:33:38):
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Speaker0: the Israeli jets had come from. (01:33:44):
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Speaker0: And the senior McCain at that time countermanded that order. (01:33:45):
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Speaker1: Do we know what actually happened during that time period? (01:33:49):
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Speaker1: I mean, like the official, so from what I understand, Israel blew up that ship (01:33:52):
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Speaker1: and then they said that it was (01:33:56):
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Speaker1: a scientific observer vessel and then they claimed that it was a mistake (01:33:58):
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Speaker0: But yes some people didn't. (01:34:02):
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Speaker1: Believe that and I don't think that Jim Morrison's father believed that (01:34:04):
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Speaker0: Exactly and so they then they just felt that Israel retaliated by killing his (01:34:07):
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Speaker0: son you know for having for having done that did. (01:34:14):
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Speaker1: He feel that did he think that jim morrison's father (01:34:16):
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Speaker0: No he never i've never heard him talk about it (01:34:20):
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Speaker0: i don't i i haven't found any views or anything written (01:34:23):
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Speaker0: articles about anything you know where he talks (01:34:26):
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Speaker0: about that so i don't know i mean there's also there's another idea that one (01:34:29):
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Speaker0: person claims that they saw jim morrison the day he died at the rock and roll (01:34:33):
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Speaker0: circus in paris which is the big rock and roll hangout people like mitch i guess (01:34:38):
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Speaker0: to hang out there and that she saw him being taken out of a bathroom where he He just looked dead. (01:34:42):
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Speaker0: If they put him in a car and they drove away, (01:34:46):
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Speaker0: and that they found him in a bathtub and then being found in a bathtub like (01:34:51):
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Speaker0: that and warm water is like a classic way to try and revive somebody that's (01:34:55):
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Speaker0: that has a heroin overdose, (01:34:58):
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Speaker0: pamela kirk's dating this man a french count near jean de bertu and he was deep (01:35:00):
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Speaker0: in the whole heroin thing and he was their big heroin addict himself him and (01:35:05):
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Speaker0: pamela cursons i mean jim morrison hated and it's possible that he tried it (01:35:08):
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Speaker0: that night and that that might have killed him there's Yeah. (01:35:12):
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Speaker1: That's a more believable, self-discussion tends to be a more believable narrative. (01:35:15):
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Speaker0: Who knows? We're never going to get to the, we're never going to know. (01:35:22):
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Speaker0: Everything about Jim Morrison's life was mysterious, and those final days in (01:35:26):
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Speaker0: Paris are just as mysterious. I mean, Raymond... (01:35:30):
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Speaker1: Go ahead, go ahead. (01:35:34):
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Speaker0: No, Raymond Zerbe was not happy that Bill Siddons, when he sent the doors miniature (01:35:36):
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Speaker0: to Paris, he did not lift the coffin to identify Jim Morrison's body. (01:35:40):
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Speaker0: And Raymond Zarek was on the phone to him saying, you didn't look the coffin lid. (01:35:45):
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Speaker0: So as far as we know, they buried an empty coffin. There's only five people at the funeral. (01:35:49):
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Speaker0: There was only one doctor's signature on the death certificate. (01:35:54):
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Speaker0: Bill Simmons was very young. He was only 20 years old. He didn't think to open up the casket. (01:35:59):
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Speaker0: He saw the French authorities in Panamera. He figured, I'm sure Jim Morrison's (01:36:04):
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Speaker0: body is in that coffin. And so John Densmore said that, you know, (01:36:08):
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Speaker0: an interview said if there is anybody capable of just disappearing because everything (01:36:13):
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Speaker0: was going on, it was Jim Morrison. (01:36:16):
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Speaker0: But we were just never going to know. Do you have any. (01:36:17):
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Speaker1: Personal feelings on that? (01:36:20):
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Speaker0: I think he's, he's, he's, he's in perilous shows. I think he has passed away. (01:36:23):
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Speaker0: I think it'd be very, very difficult to maintain a disappearing act in this (01:36:30):
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Speaker0: day and age. I think he would be found. (01:36:34):
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Speaker0: His, his health was, was, was going down, but the, the asthma was returning. (01:36:38):
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Speaker0: He, he had, he poured decades of living into, you know, like six years. (01:36:43):
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Speaker0: He was still drinking in Paris. He was incredibly worried about what was, (01:36:49):
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Speaker0: what was happening to him, what would happen to him if he, if he went back to the United States, (01:36:52):
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Speaker0: plus Pamela Carson was deep into heroin use, and if they did an autopsy and (01:36:56):
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Speaker0: that case had continued, (01:37:04):
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Speaker0: and Pamela Chris almost found out that she had the heroin, she could go to jail for murder. (01:37:06):
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Speaker0: They could find her liable to death. (01:37:13):
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Speaker0: That's more probable what happened, that they buried the body quickly to avoid (01:37:15):
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Speaker0: any kind of legal backlash for her. (01:37:22):
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Speaker1: She died- (01:37:25):
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Speaker1: go ahead she died (01:37:27):
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Speaker0: Three years later but of a heroin overdose. (01:37:28):
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Speaker1: Pamela i was gonna say i think that being on heroin and nodding out in the bath (01:37:30):
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Speaker1: is i think a somewhat common way to die (01:37:37):
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Speaker1: or i can certainly imagine it being having been around people nodding out if (01:37:39):
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Speaker1: you were in a bath you could pretty easily drown it also depresses your breathing (01:37:43):
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Speaker1: i don't know how that interacts with asthma, although, you know... (01:37:47):
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Speaker0: And he was drinking that night. Yeah. And he was drinking. (01:37:51):
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Speaker1: So it's not implausible that... And I think particularly, I didn't know that (01:37:54):
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Speaker1: about Pamela Corson, that heroin was involved, but it's certainly not improbable (01:38:00):
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Speaker1: that what happened is some combination of just drinking and heroin. (01:38:05):
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Speaker1: But I think perhaps the diciness around it being about the heroin also makes sense. (01:38:09):
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Speaker0: Mm-hmm. It's a very sad and tragic end to... (01:38:14):
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Speaker0: To somebody who was just super brilliant who just (01:38:19):
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Speaker0: they really felt that they had a a divine (01:38:22):
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Speaker0: call you know through what they chose (01:38:25):
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Speaker0: to do with rock and roll you know just just to (01:38:28):
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Speaker0: push forth our evolution just to wake us up when he when he (01:38:31):
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Speaker0: screams wake up and all those things like that's what (01:38:33):
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Speaker0: he's referring to you know that that's what he's trying to (01:38:36):
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Speaker0: do he's trying to break that circuit and snap us out in (01:38:39):
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Speaker0: the same way that that colin wilson is was trying to (01:38:42):
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Speaker0: do with his books it's amazing that colin wilson was writing the occult at the (01:38:45):
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Speaker0: same time that jim morrison's expressing all these same things himself artistically (01:38:49):
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Speaker0: yeah those two i think if if if rock and roll happened years earlier like like (01:38:53):
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Speaker0: colin wilson would have been would have gotten into rock music oh that would. (01:38:59):
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Speaker1: Have been cool yeah maybe in the way michael moorcock used to write lyrics for uh that type of (01:39:02):
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Speaker0: Thing right yeah. (01:39:08):
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Speaker1: That would have been cool yeah i mean just thinking Thinking back, (01:39:10):
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Speaker1: when I first became interested in magic, it was Colin Wilson, (01:39:12):
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Speaker1: the occult, the outsider, and the doors. Those were major influences. (01:39:16):
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Speaker1: I didn't know that Pamela Corson was a heroin addict, and I wanted to talk about (01:39:20):
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Speaker1: her a little bit. She was also a... (01:39:24):
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Speaker1: Either she actually was (01:39:27):
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Speaker0: A i can't remember. (01:39:29):
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Speaker1: Either she was a practicing witch or they made a big deal out of it in the movie (01:39:30):
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Speaker1: but i believe she was also like she was into more like structured initiated (01:39:34):
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Speaker1: witchcraft if i'm remembering correctly and i may not be so (01:39:39):
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Speaker0: Jim morrison became involved with a lady named patricia keneally. (01:39:43):
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Speaker1: She was okay okay i'm sorry i'm confusing the two okay so maybe clear clear (01:39:47):
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Speaker1: this up for me then please sure (01:39:51):
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Speaker0: Yeah i got involved with patricia keneally and she was which a Celtic Wiccan (01:39:53):
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Speaker0: actually had a Celtic knot tying ceremony in which they were married and they (01:39:57):
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Speaker0: were involved with each other for a while. (01:40:04):
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Speaker0: Pamela Curzon, Pam really loved Jim Morrison, the poet. (01:40:06):
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Speaker0: And what I learned from one of Jim Morrison's close friends in many interviews, (01:40:11):
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Speaker0: Frank Lissandro, is that Pamela really encouraged him to be a writer. (01:40:14):
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Speaker0: She fell in love with the a poet and she wanted Jim Morrison to live a life (01:40:18):
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Speaker0: in which he was going back to his private side and being involved in his poetry. (01:40:24):
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Speaker0: She was thrilled about the idea of then going to Paris and just living a life (01:40:29):
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Speaker0: of poet. She was very attracted to that part of them. (01:40:33):
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Speaker0: Unfortunately, when the Doris became famous, she got into heroin and this really, (01:40:37):
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Speaker0: really bothered Jim Morrison a lot. (01:40:43):
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Speaker0: Lot you know he didn't but you know he really loved pamela and you know he i (01:40:44):
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Speaker0: guess turned a blind eye to it yeah so jim morrison passes away on july 3rd (01:40:50):
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Speaker0: 1971 and then you know pamela passed away from heroin overdose you know up in (01:40:55):
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Speaker0: up in marin county in san francisco. (01:41:00):
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Speaker1: Drug i hate that yeah (01:41:03):
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Speaker0: It's tragic it. (01:41:05):
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Speaker1: Really is it's just it just fuck it the fuck that drug brings just nothing but (01:41:07):
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Speaker1: misery in the lives of everyone it touches and not just them but everyone around (01:41:11):
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Speaker1: them that cares about them I fucking hate heroin Jim (01:41:15):
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Speaker0: Said that when you're doing heroin it's like putting all of your problems into (01:41:18):
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Speaker0: a drawer and just shutting it it's just yeah. (01:41:21):
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Speaker1: But then when you're off they open it they come back that's the thing and along (01:41:24):
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Speaker0: With all the effects of like being put yes right. (01:41:28):
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Speaker1: And somebody could be on heroin for ten years and then none of that baggage (01:41:33):
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Speaker1: if With all that baggage, it'll just add up and it won't get processed. (01:41:37):
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Speaker0: Yeah well the. (01:41:41):
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Speaker1: Other thing is i think statistically it's like you know tragically it's like (01:41:43):
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Speaker1: in a relationship if one person's on heroin it's almost impossible for the other person to avoid it (01:41:46):
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Speaker0: Right so i get exactly or. (01:41:52):
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Speaker1: Or if both people are on heroin and only one wants to quit they're gonna end (01:41:55):
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Speaker1: up dragging the other person down with them so right (01:41:59):
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Speaker0: It's a terrible scene i i did (01:42:02):
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Speaker0: have a thought where so she's involved with (01:42:05):
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Speaker0: the french she's out if they're the french account of Jean de Bertouille and he's (01:42:08):
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Speaker0: deep in the whole heroin stuff too and it it (01:42:11):
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Speaker0: you know maybe Jean de Bertouille was was jealous of (01:42:14):
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Speaker0: Jim Morrison but one way to get Jim Morrison out of the picture so (01:42:17):
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Speaker0: it could be with Pamela was you know to catch him one night drunk (01:42:20):
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Speaker0: at the rock and roll circus said hey man like try this heroin like you know (01:42:23):
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Speaker0: and so there's a really good documentary about this in which people one person (01:42:26):
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Speaker0: a couple people were saying that they were very worried that they might be discovered (01:42:32):
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Speaker0: by the Parisian authorities that they gave this very strong heroin to Jim Morrison that killed them. (01:42:36):
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Speaker0: It raises a lot of valid questions, actually. (01:42:42):
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Speaker0: So I'm inclined to believe that it's the heroin that did him in the end. (01:42:47):
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Speaker0: Now, how he ingested that heroin in a circumstance, did it come from Jean de (01:42:51):
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Speaker0: Petrilli at the Little Circus, or did it come from Pamela Curson later on that night at the apartment? (01:42:55):
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Speaker0: Those to me are the big questions. (01:43:01):
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Speaker1: Or it could have been both. Maybe he got he dosed at the bar and then came back (01:43:04):
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Speaker1: and said, you know, I want more and then he overdosed I'm (01:43:09):
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Speaker0: Kind to be that Jim Morrison was in the wrong hands that night He was vulnerable (01:43:13):
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Speaker0: and he was just in the wrong way There was just carelessness and stupidity or (01:43:17):
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Speaker0: whether somebody had some some ill intentions to get him out of the way And (01:43:22):
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Speaker0: that was an easy way to do it. (01:43:27):
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Speaker0: He was just all together in the wrong hands that night And. (01:43:28):
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Speaker1: By the wrong hands, do you mean this count or Pamela Corson or everyone? (01:43:32):
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Speaker0: I don't think he was in the wrong hands as far as Pamela Carson, (01:43:36):
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Speaker0: someone who really loved him and saw the great things about him, (01:43:39):
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Speaker0: just in the wrong hands as he was around people who were into heroin. (01:43:43):
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Speaker0: Because once that comes into the picture where you're around people who have (01:43:47):
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Speaker0: done heroin, like you said, it becomes tragic really fast. (01:43:50):
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Speaker1: Yeah, and it also brings in all kinds of bizarre people that wouldn't be there otherwise. (01:43:54):
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Speaker1: Particularly if you're a rock star and you have all these hangers on and everyone (01:43:59):
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Speaker1: is buttering you up. And yeah, I think that's done in more than a few people. (01:44:02):
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Speaker1: And yeah, when you mentioned Pamela Corson, I imagine even somebody, (01:44:07):
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Speaker1: or perhaps particularly somebody with a heroin habit, would have a sense of (01:44:10):
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Speaker1: what's fair play and what's not, in the sense that I don't think that she would (01:44:15):
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Speaker1: have just let him get overdosed. (01:44:19):
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Speaker0: Yes i mean there was there were some the the bright side of all this like there (01:44:22):
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Speaker0: were some things that in those three months that i'm glad he was able to experience such as, (01:44:26):
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Speaker0: you know in fsu he wrote a really interesting paper about the garden of earthly (01:44:31):
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Speaker0: delights the painting by hieronymus bosch in which he wanted to prove that bosch (01:44:36):
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Speaker0: was was a was like a second and third century adamite you know people that would (01:44:40):
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Speaker0: you know worship christ naked in church that kind of thing this. (01:44:44):
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Speaker1: Was a more sincere yeah (01:44:47):
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Speaker0: And the professor FSU was (01:44:49):
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Speaker0: like I didn't he said you know in the book and no one out (01:44:52):
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Speaker0: here gets out alive we learned that he um he was intrigued by the idea but he (01:44:55):
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Speaker0: didn't buy it but he was intrigued by it but on the they both the trip to Morocco (01:44:59):
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Speaker0: and Jim Morrison and Pamela were able to stop at the Prado in Madrid where they (01:45:03):
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Speaker0: have garden birth the delights the triptych and she said that he stood in front (01:45:08):
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Speaker0: of painting for three or four hours. (01:45:12):
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Speaker0: He really loved that painting. (01:45:14):
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Speaker0: Jim Morrison, he's like a figure in a Bosch painting, the way he acts on stage (01:45:16):
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Speaker0: and when he moves and stuff like that. (01:45:22):
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Speaker0: I think he incorporated Bosch's artistic touch in the way that he looked on (01:45:24):
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Speaker0: stage because he was very affected by that kind of artwork. (01:45:30):
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Speaker0: Also, he was a great fan of French New Wave Cinema. (01:45:33):
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Speaker0: There's a YouTube video where you can see him. He's on the set of one of Francois Truffaut's films. (01:45:37):
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Speaker0: The guy that you see in Close Encounters of the Third Kind later on, (01:45:43):
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Speaker0: he loves Truffaut and he loves Godard. Contempt is one of his favorite films. (01:45:47):
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Speaker0: He was able to get in touch with the filmmaker Agnes Bart and they became friends. (01:45:53):
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Speaker0: There were some really positive things that he went in his attempt to get back (01:45:58):
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Speaker0: in touch with himself when he was in Paris, the poet, the filmmaker. (01:46:03):
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Speaker1: There's some interesting threads to pull out there, which the question I was (01:46:08):
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Speaker1: going to ask you is if he had lived, who do you think he would have become? (01:46:11):
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Speaker1: And it seemed like there were some doors potentially open or opening to him at this time. (01:46:15):
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Speaker1: You mentioned being more of a literary figure or I think an art world figure. (01:46:20):
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Speaker1: I think that perhaps that in France, or you even mentioned politics or public influence. (01:46:26):
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Speaker1: Do you have a sense of who he would have become if he'd stayed alive or was Was that it? (01:46:33):
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Speaker1: That was just the show was up and that was the time for him to go. (01:46:39):
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Speaker0: There's a lot of different opinions about what his mindset was about the Doors before leaving. (01:46:43):
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Speaker0: To start this answer to your question, there's a lot of different opinions about (01:46:48):
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Speaker0: what his mindset was before he left Los Angeles or Paris. (01:46:52):
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Speaker0: Some people think they got the impression from him that the Doors are over. (01:46:56):
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Speaker0: Other members of the band and other people close to him said that, (01:47:00):
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Speaker0: I don't know, he's going to come back and this is just a hiatus to get himself together. (01:47:04):
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Speaker0: He did tell Bill Siddons, the manager, like, I really just don't know who I (01:47:09):
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Speaker0: am anymore. I've got to get back in touch with myself. (01:47:12):
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Speaker0: I think if he was able to get, he was a very bright person. (01:47:17):
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Speaker0: And I think if he was able to get, you know, I don't think men really grow up (01:47:21):
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Speaker0: until they get, until they hit 30. At least. (01:47:26):
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Speaker1: At least. (01:47:30):
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Speaker1: That's on the low end, but yeah, yeah. (01:47:33):
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Speaker0: But he's 27 years old. I don't want to bring back all the Saturn return stuff (01:47:34):
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Speaker0: and all that, but he's going through a lot. You're a world-famous rock star. (01:47:39):
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Speaker0: Just before leaving, they made one of the most widely acclaimed albums, LA Woman. (01:47:47):
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Speaker0: Actually, in a phone call, John Densmore says like, hey, how's the album doing? (01:47:53):
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Speaker0: John Densmore was like, the album is doing great. People really love it, (01:47:58):
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Speaker0: plus the critics love it too. John Densmore was like, yeah, that's really awesome. (01:48:00):
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Speaker0: He's at that place in his life where he needs to just find himself again. (01:48:04):
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Speaker0: I think if he was able to get beyond the substance abuse and somehow get to (01:48:10):
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Speaker0: a place to finally say to himself, I've really got to take care of myself. (01:48:15):
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Speaker0: I've really got to do something about this. (01:48:19):
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Speaker0: I think he would have gone back to his books. In the collector's works of Morris, (01:48:22):
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Speaker0: there's notes in there for a novel. (01:48:27):
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Speaker0: I think he would have, at some point, since he loves music and he's a singer, (01:48:28):
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Speaker0: I think the Doris would have probably made at least two or three more albums. (01:48:35):
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Speaker0: He definitely would have written more poetry. He definitely would have written more books. (01:48:38):
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Speaker0: He definitely maybe would have maybe done something in mainstream film or made more films. (01:48:42):
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Speaker0: His film, An American Pastoral, it's a marvelous film. (01:48:48):
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Speaker0: I mean, it's a great experimental film. It was the precursor to Easy Rider. (01:48:53):
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Speaker0: Writer, Dennis Hopper was inspired by it. This is a really amazing artist. (01:48:57):
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Speaker0: So he would have, who knows? I've thought about this. It's tragic. (01:49:02):
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Speaker0: It's very tragic, his death. I mean, he would have left us some real gems, (01:49:09):
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Speaker0: more gems had he lived artistically. (01:49:14):
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Speaker0: Maybe he would have gotten involved in public life later on, who knows? (01:49:17):
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Speaker0: Well, unfortunately, we'll never know. (01:49:22):
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Speaker1: You've mentioned a couple of things in regards to Jim Morrison. (01:49:25):
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Speaker1: And my question was going to be, (01:49:29):
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Speaker1: if you could boil it down, what lesson do you think he has to teach us? (01:49:31):
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Speaker1: You've mentioned the word freedom. You've mentioned wake up. (01:49:35):
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Speaker1: Is that kind of what he was communicating to the world? Or what lessons can (01:49:39):
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Speaker1: we learn from Jim Morrison? (01:49:44):
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Speaker0: I think to go full circle back to what we were originally talking about in the (01:49:45):
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Speaker0: day and age that we live with, with like the internet and cell phones and all (01:49:51):
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Speaker0: this kind of stuff that can tempt us. (01:49:54):
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Speaker0: We can just get too involved in and we can lose track of like, (01:49:58):
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Speaker0: you know, who we are and what's authentic to us and what's not authentic. (01:50:01):
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Speaker0: In that entire argument. (01:50:05):
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Speaker0: You know, Jim Watson was someone who realized that if I'm going to go my own (01:50:08):
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Speaker0: way and if I'm going to be my own type of artist, then I have to really guard my mind. (01:50:14):
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Speaker0: Like, he had statements in his brochure, like, did you know they were ruled by TV? (01:50:20):
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Speaker0: You know, like, he understood the effects of television, you know, (01:50:24):
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Speaker0: at his time, and what it can do to the mind, right? (01:50:28):
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Speaker0: He was a classic outsider in this sense, where he was more concerned with getting (01:50:32):
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Speaker0: back in touch with that other reality as a secret teacher, allowing those peak experiences to happen. (01:50:38):
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Speaker0: So he can be in touch with himself, to hear the music and the poetry and then (01:50:46):
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Speaker0: the artistic creative ideas going on in his mind. (01:50:49):
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Speaker0: And to do all of these things, you have got to be a warrior for your authentic self. (01:50:52):
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Speaker0: You have to look out for yourself. So you have to know when to say no to things (01:50:58):
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Speaker0: and you have to, you know, when to reject, you know, all things that are just (01:51:01):
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Speaker0: like inauthentic or all things that are just very distracting. (01:51:05):
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Speaker0: And that takes, you know, a lot of discernment. (01:51:09):
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Speaker0: So, and Jim Morrison, like you have your champion for somebody that, (01:51:13):
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Speaker0: you know, can push you in the right direction as far as your own spiritual awakening (01:51:17):
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Speaker0: in your own divine light that you're coming into contact with. (01:51:23):
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Speaker0: With, you know, all the things that everyone gets involved with across the whole (01:51:27):
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Speaker0: spectrum of the occult, of magic, of esotericism, you know, all this is part (01:51:32):
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Speaker0: of the rejected knowledge. All this is in the Western esoteric tradition. (01:51:38):
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Speaker0: This is the first time in history where so many of us can come into contact (01:51:41):
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Speaker0: with this, you know, without the Inquisition or something like that coming to (01:51:46):
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Speaker0: hallow us before the court, or to be shamed, or to be run out of town, (01:51:50):
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Speaker0: or to be marginalized, or like put down, and and all these kinds of things. (01:51:53):
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Speaker0: Now we can, you know, the freedom is there to find people, you know, (01:51:57):
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Speaker0: you can, it's like, Hey, you know, if you've got a problem in Mississippi, (01:52:00):
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Speaker0: go goodbye, I'm moving to LA or I'm moving to New York or something like that. (01:52:03):
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Speaker1: Yeah, that's a great thing that just as a tangent, that's something that really (01:52:08):
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Speaker1: people really take for granted about America, that you can move state without (01:52:10):
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Speaker1: leaving your country. That's a big deal. (01:52:14):
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Speaker0: I am going to say this because we're on your show and I was very affected by the podcast, (01:52:16):
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Speaker0: your recent podcast with the couple in the United Kingdom and all that they're (01:52:25):
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Speaker0: experiencing. Oh, okay. (01:52:33):
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Speaker1: A very controversial interview that's gotten people a lot of flack, (01:52:34):
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Speaker1: particularly the MPS, everyone please go buy books from Scarlet Imprint because (01:52:37):
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Speaker1: they're getting the hate. Yes. (01:52:41):
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Speaker0: We have to remember that I love all (01:52:43):
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Speaker0: people, but the things that they're experiencing in the United Kingdom, (01:52:47):
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Speaker0: that kind of thinking that they were talking about has no tolerance for an awakened mind. (01:52:53):
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Speaker0: It doesn't have any tolerance for coming in contact with the spirit world and cosmic consciousness. (01:53:00):
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Speaker1: You're talking about theocratic consciousness. (01:53:07):
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Speaker0: Consciousness yeah um yeah yeah yeah (01:53:09):
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Speaker0: i'm talking about well you know people like us everyone you (01:53:12):
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Speaker0: know viewing this this podcast you know everyone (01:53:15):
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Speaker0: that that wants to that is going through spiritual awakening and (01:53:18):
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Speaker0: is finding themselves and going on this path that's all about putting yourself (01:53:21):
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Speaker0: in alignment correct that has no no place in that culture you know i don't want (01:53:26):
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Speaker0: to like you know generalize the entire the entire islamic culture but sharia (01:53:32):
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Speaker0: law and all those things are very very intolerant. (01:53:37):
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Speaker0: And I'm starting to wonder about the effects long-term that could have in the (01:53:40):
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Speaker0: West if we don't start to put a wall with this, (01:53:48):
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Speaker0: because I don't see how we can absorb that. (01:53:52):
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Speaker1: Yeah, I agree. And I'm actually surprised you brought this up. (01:53:55):
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Speaker1: I've been trying to take a moratorium from political controversy because Twitter's (01:54:00):
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Speaker1: made me sick, you know, and I just like i got i got went way far way too far (01:54:04):
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Speaker1: on the political front i think but (01:54:08):
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Speaker1: This is something that we're all dealing with and responding to, (01:54:12):
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Speaker1: and that's something that I forget because I'm kind of in my internet world. (01:54:15):
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Speaker1: And yeah, I think it's something we all should be concerned about and be rational about. (01:54:18):
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Speaker1: I mean, you've mentioned the destruction of the Library of Alexandria. (01:54:24):
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Speaker1: I actually did not know that it was destroyed in 600 by Islam. (01:54:27):
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Speaker1: That's a boner move right there. (01:54:32):
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Speaker0: I mean, it went through various phases of almost being destroyed, (01:54:34):
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Speaker0: but it was when Islam was spreading through North Africa where, (01:54:38):
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Speaker0: I forget the name of the person, Gary Lackley writes about it in Secret Teachers, (01:54:42):
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Speaker0: and that was the nail in the coffin for Hellenistic Alexandria and that library. (01:54:46):
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Speaker0: And fortunately, it was only a few awakened, enlightened people that said, (01:54:51):
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Speaker0: hey, don't destroy everything there. Right, right. Right. (01:54:57):
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Speaker0: Well, we live in a very destructive time. That's exactly right. (01:55:01):
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Speaker1: I don't think it's just Islam. I think it's a time where people want to be able to shut other people up. (01:55:05):
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Speaker0: Right. And I'm concerned about what is going on in Beijing and that coming over here. (01:55:11):
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Speaker0: They have no tolerance in that culture for people like us either. (01:55:20):
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Speaker0: They don't just burn down the churches and all that kind of stuff. (01:55:25):
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Speaker0: They go after the Falun Gong practitioners, they go after occultists, (01:55:27):
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Speaker0: they go after all these people. (01:55:30):
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Speaker0: And at the same time as so many of us are awakening and so many beautiful things (01:55:33):
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Speaker0: are happening, I think we have to be wary that there's another kind of wave (01:55:37):
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Speaker0: of persecution that could be coming at the same time too. (01:55:42):
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Speaker0: I don't think we're completely out of the woods. Not at all. (01:55:46):
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Speaker1: And that's frustrating because it (01:55:50):
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Speaker1: kind of seemed like we were for a brief period But no, I don't think so. (01:55:53):
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Speaker1: And well, let me just throw that back to you, which is, you know, (01:55:57):
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Speaker1: you mentioned Gary Lachman and, (01:56:01):
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Speaker1: you know, the the ongoing kind of quest to wake people up to something more (01:56:03):
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Speaker1: transcendent, more in touch with the eternal principles, more in touch with their true self. (01:56:10):
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Speaker1: And one of the things that you know people saying i get a lot on twitter is (01:56:15):
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Speaker1: people being saying that people who are interested in the occult or enlightenment (01:56:20):
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Speaker1: should be above politics (01:56:26):
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Speaker1: and i would love to be above politics that sounds wonderful because i deeply dislike it but (01:56:28):
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Speaker1: just because you bring this up it's kind of like is that (01:56:35):
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Speaker1: where you know that's a tricky line for everyone to be (01:56:38):
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Speaker1: looking at right now because the world has (01:56:40):
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Speaker1: gotten so you know it's like going back to world war ii conditions practically (01:56:43):
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Speaker1: um so this isn't really a specific question it's more of a conversation opener (01:56:47):
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Speaker1: which is just kind of like navigate just because you brought this up kind of (01:56:53):
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Speaker1: navigating that line between okay should should we intervene or not (01:56:57):
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Speaker0: I'm with you. Everything that you talked about that was discussed in that podcast, (01:57:03):
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Speaker0: I think about a lot right now, just because we all have to be thinking about this. (01:57:09):
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Speaker0: I think the political environment is very toxic. I don't think Americans have (01:57:14):
undefined

Speaker0: good presidential choices at all right now. (01:57:18):
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Speaker0: And as far as the rejected knowledge, everything that we're interested in that (01:57:21):
undefined

Speaker0: is the occult and magic and esotericism, these are things that you cannot put into a cage. (01:57:28):
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Speaker0: They don't belong necessarily in the political arena. (01:57:35):
undefined

Speaker0: They only belong in the political arena in the sense that if we ever feel that (01:57:40):
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Speaker0: we're ever going to come against persecution again, it doesn't necessarily come (01:57:44):
undefined

Speaker0: from the Christian right. (01:57:51):
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Speaker0: It can come from the left also. Right. (01:57:53):
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Speaker1: And I think that surprised everyone because you mentioned the Christian right (01:57:55):
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Speaker1: before. Everyone was so convinced for so long that the issue was the Christian right. (01:57:58):
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Speaker1: And it was in some ways, but things have changed. (01:58:02):
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Speaker0: Changed yes well the more this is very complicated the more the more the left opens itself up to, (01:58:07):
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Speaker0: you know everything that is going on in the middle east which is ironic because (01:58:16):
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Speaker0: those places have no no tolerance for them at all right um the more they open (01:58:21):
undefined

Speaker0: up with that the more they're going to let in you know an element that that (01:58:27):
undefined

Speaker0: that that is going to have just as much as intolerance you For us, (01:58:30):
undefined

Speaker0: for anybody who's awakened and who wants to go down this road, (01:58:33):
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Speaker0: everything that is about the Western esoteric tradition, there's just as much (01:58:38):
undefined

Speaker0: as intolerance there as there is in the Christian world. (01:58:42):
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Speaker1: Tell people about who you are. Excuse me, now my train of thought got disrupted. (01:58:44):
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Speaker1: Tell people about where they can find your books and specifically this one. (01:58:50):
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Speaker0: PaulWild.com, Wild with a Y. I wrote my book during the pandemic. (01:58:55):
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Speaker0: Now I'm going back into artistic things. I have my new music video up there (01:58:59):
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Speaker0: and everything like that. (01:59:05):
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Speaker0: And the book is going to come out on September 10th. (01:59:06):
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Speaker1: Okay. Well, this was a pleasure. I don't want to get you arrested in the library. (01:59:09):
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Speaker1: This was a pleasure. I really, really enjoyed this. (01:59:14):
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Speaker0: Yeah, me too. Thank you very much. (01:59:17):
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Speaker1: Great luck with the book. (01:59:19):
undefined

Speaker0: Be in touch. All right. (01:59:20):
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Speaker1: Take care. (01:59:22):
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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}Ep. 217: Jim Morrison, Secret Teacher of the Occult—With Paul Wyld

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Ep. 217: Jim Morrison, Secret Teacher of the Occult—With Paul Wyld

On Purpose with Jay Shetty