Ep. 219: CRISIS APPARITIONS and Near-Death Experiences With Daniel Burke

Episode Transcript
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Jason: Why don't we just jump straight into it? Please tell the audience about yourself. (00:00):
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Daniel: Sure. My name is Daniel Burke. I've written a book about crisis apparitions through history, (00:04):
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Daniel: cross-culturally, and I've really tried to go for as wide a range of sources (00:12):
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Daniel: as possible to really represent just how widespread the phenomenon is, (00:17):
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Daniel: which is something that really hasn't been done up to this point. (00:21):
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Daniel: And I thought it was something that was really needed. and i really hope that (00:25):
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Daniel: people see the same see it the same way so (00:28):
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Jason: Talk about this phenomenon what is this exactly. (00:32):
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Daniel: So fundamentally the crisis apparition is (00:35):
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Daniel: the experience of becoming aware (00:38):
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Daniel: of the death of somebody usually a loved one but (00:42):
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Daniel: not always at a distance and that (00:44):
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Daniel: can come about through various means it could (00:48):
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Daniel: be an apparitional encounter it could be a voice it could (00:51):
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Daniel: be an intuition it could be even something along the (00:54):
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Daniel: lines of a and kind of an empathetic pain (00:57):
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Daniel: something related to the position on (01:00):
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Daniel: the body where the wound is for instance and it's like (01:03):
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Daniel: it's the usually the experience is followed very quickly by the confirmation (01:08):
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Daniel: that the death occurred around the time of the experience which is obviously (01:14):
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Daniel: the kind of fundamental mystery of the experience itself and the reason why (01:18):
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Daniel: it's been so focused in on and honed in on by parapsychologists and others throughout the years. (01:22):
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Daniel: And I would even say, to be honest, that overall it's been a little bit overlooked (01:28):
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Daniel: in recent times, in recent decades, certainly. (01:32):
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Daniel: Not 200 years ago, but definitely I believe in recent times. (01:36):
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Daniel: I even believe that there's the kind of depth of the mystery of that experience (01:39):
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Daniel: has been a little bit, I don't know, blossomed in the mix. Maybe it's hard to say. (01:44):
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Daniel: The language around it is a drab at times. (01:50):
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Daniel: But for me, it's something that's a deeply fundamental and powerful kind of (01:52):
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Daniel: natural part of the human experience that isn't necessarily spoken about a lot, (01:58):
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Daniel: but it's very common and very powerful. (02:03):
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Jason: Yeah this is this is really interesting (02:06):
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Jason: yeah this is something that you hear people talk about a lot and also people (02:09):
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Jason: that don't have anything outwardly strange about them you know they may not (02:15):
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Jason: talk about anything else outside (02:22):
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Jason: of the ordinary they may be a completely normal person but then they (02:23):
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Jason: will report something like that absolutely you know i feel like maybe that's as common as (02:28):
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Jason: the experience of thinking of somebody and then they call. (02:34):
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Daniel: Oh, absolutely. (02:37):
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Daniel: The the the individual who experiences (02:41):
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Daniel: these things and is on (02:44):
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Daniel: like so often there's a kind of a sense among if (02:48):
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Daniel: you want to use the term skeptics of these types of experiences that (02:51):
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Daniel: there's a like people enjoy (02:54):
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Daniel: having and speaking about these (02:57):
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Daniel: experiences and you know attaining some sort of attention and obviously that's (03:00):
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Daniel: true in certain cases but when it comes to these specific types of experiences (03:05):
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Daniel: these crisis operations and it's it's it's usually not the case it's often kept (03:09):
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Daniel: very private and spoken of in smaller circles if it's spoken of at all by the way (03:14):
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Daniel: often is not spoken of at all sometimes in fact (03:19):
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Daniel: very commonly you'll read in the accounts that the reaction (03:22):
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Daniel: is very lukewarm and that's with (03:25):
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Daniel: family members that's loved ones that's husbands that's wives (03:28):
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Daniel: often the reaction to being told these experiences quite lukewarm so you can (03:31):
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Daniel: understand why people are then unwilling to even share so from that perspective (03:36):
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Daniel: i would say that the actual ability of the crisis operation in of itself is (03:40):
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Daniel: somewhat difficult difficult to gauge but at least higher than we know i (03:44):
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Jason: Was just thinking i imagine if there was an (03:50):
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Jason: extended family there was a death in the family and somebody started talking (03:53):
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Jason: about a crisis apparition people you know how people get they could think oh (03:56):
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Jason: you're trying to say something like oh you're trying to make this all about (04:00):
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Jason: you or you know trying to claim special status that they were loved more than (04:03):
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Jason: the other people in the extended family. (04:09):
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Daniel: Interesting just (04:11):
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Jason: I don't know that just that just occurred to me as you were talking about it (04:12):
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Jason: just the reasons why somebody might be lukewarm to start talking about something like that. (04:16):
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Daniel: That is interesting that's absolutely something that can happen and will happen (04:21):
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Daniel: obviously every family is different all the The dynamics are different. (04:27):
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Daniel: It's going to be received differently, (04:30):
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Daniel: a different context. But certainly that is one of the contexts. (04:32):
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Daniel: But another one of them, thankfully, is that often the experience being shared (04:35):
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Daniel: brings about kind of a more communal sense of there's an easier, there can be a path. (04:41):
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Daniel: It can be full on the path to move through bereavement. (04:49):
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Daniel: Absolutely. We know that's the case with the individual. The testimonies are (04:53):
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Daniel: there. But we also know that sharing those experiences can also have those effects (04:57):
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Daniel: on close family members and those around them. (05:02):
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Daniel: And we can further extend that to us, to the people who are reading about these experiences. (05:06):
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Daniel: That's something that ties these experiences. Oh, are you there? (05:11):
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Daniel: Oh, sorry. I thought my program crashed. But that's something that ties these (05:16):
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Daniel: experiences to the near-death experiences as well, because there's been research (05:20):
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Daniel: there suggesting that the (05:24):
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Daniel: Impacts of just reading about these experiences can be actually somewhat equatable (05:27):
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Daniel: to the impacts of undergoing them. (05:31):
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Daniel: So I would argue that it's certainly not the case that it would be, (05:34):
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Daniel: it probably isn't as equatable when it comes to the crisis operation, (05:37):
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Daniel: but it's a case-by-case basis because it just it really does (05:41):
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Daniel: depend you know like for me personally reading about (05:44):
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Daniel: these experiences it definitely kind of changed my (05:47):
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Daniel: sense of things in the same way that (05:50):
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Daniel: would often does change the individual's sense of (05:53):
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Daniel: things their kind of orientation in the cosmos (05:56):
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Daniel: their entire sense of what is and what (05:59):
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Daniel: isn't can kind of be altered in that single moment and the (06:02):
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Daniel: moment which often isn't it's often not particularly (06:05):
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Daniel: flamboyant often it's very simple very (06:09):
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Daniel: straightforward the opposite of what we (06:12):
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Daniel: would consider like the literary ghost or the classic ghost (06:15):
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Daniel: story now though accounts are (06:18):
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Daniel: there they're there too very often they're kind of (06:21):
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Daniel: deeply symbolic dreams which are coincident with (06:24):
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Daniel: a dis and death but for the most part there's a surprising and I (06:27):
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Daniel: use the word lightly mundanity to these experiences because relatively (06:31):
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Daniel: speaking because obviously they're not actually mundane as such but it is fascinating (06:35):
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Daniel: to see the contract between these simple experiences and the kind of classic (06:39):
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Daniel: oh this is a ghost story it's something that has been picked up on for decades (06:44):
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Daniel: for some of the early researchers picked up on this as well the contrast is (06:49):
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Daniel: very interesting interesting (06:53):
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Jason: Are there some stories that you can share of ones you've heard of of, (06:54):
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Jason: of, uh, crisis apparitions. (06:58):
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Daniel: Well, there have been a number in my own family. (07:01):
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Daniel: My grandmother, her daughter sadly died in an automobile accident. (07:08):
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Daniel: And her deceased brother entered into her... (07:15):
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Daniel: Her experience was that he looked into the room, he tipped his hat, (07:21):
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Daniel: and he told her the simple words, it's Holly, and Holly was the name of her daughter. (07:26):
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Daniel: And about two to three seconds later, the phone call came that she had been (07:32):
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Daniel: hit by a car accident and that's one of the interesting thing there is that (07:37):
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Daniel: the dead the dead often come to deliver the message of death this is very common (07:42):
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Daniel: cross-culturally and it's still incredible the extent to which it's still the (07:48):
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Daniel: case it's across the like entirety of the literature it's the case so for me (07:52):
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Daniel: to see that in my own family was interesting but there are other examples too like Like, (07:57):
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Daniel: when my brother was very young, for instance, (08:01):
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Daniel: he told my mother that he saw an individual called Aileen, a friend of the family, (08:07):
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Daniel: and he told him that he couldn't have seen her because she's died. (08:12):
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Daniel: He had no idea that she was dead at the time, though. (08:17):
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Daniel: And that's two that come to mind. There are others in my family, (08:20):
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Daniel: but you would be surprised how many people have had these experiences, (08:23):
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Daniel: but they just don't speak about it. You know, it's very surprisingly common. (08:29):
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Jason: Yeah. I've, I've, now that you're mentioning this, I think I've had this in, (08:34):
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Jason: I know I've had this in my own family as well. (08:38):
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Jason: Really? Yeah. I haven't thought about it for a long time. (08:40):
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Jason: So would you say that's what so strongly attracted you to this subject was experiencing it yourself? (08:44):
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Daniel: You know, funny enough, no. And to (08:51):
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Daniel: be honest, I, I didn't even make those connections until after the work. (08:54):
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Daniel: I didn't even make those connections because when my grandmother first told (08:59):
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Daniel: me I was very young and I didn't really take it in. (09:03):
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Daniel: I didn't really comprehend it or kind of contextualize it. (09:06):
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Daniel: It wasn't, actually it wasn't until about two thirds through writing this book (09:10):
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Daniel: that I even remembered those experiences happened in my family. (09:15):
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Daniel: So it wasn't in any way the inspiration for the book. It was more related to, (09:18):
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Daniel: like I was initially struck just by the nature of the accounts themselves like (09:22):
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Daniel: the fundamental mystery of the coincident the (09:28):
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Daniel: coinciding of the distant event with (09:31):
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Daniel: the apparition or the dream or the (09:35):
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Daniel: vision etc that's what really struck me initially and there was a paper that (09:37):
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Daniel: dr bruce grace wrote in 2010 seeing people unknown to have died was the name (09:42):
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Daniel: of the paper i'm afraid i don't remember the name of the journal right now It (09:47):
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Daniel: was an excellent paper and it was a good number of these crisis operations, (09:52):
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Daniel: although there they're referred to as peak in Darien accounts. (09:57):
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Daniel: Which is a name that specifically often is (10:02):
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Daniel: specifically references the discovery of a distant death during (10:05):
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Daniel: a near-death experience so these a lot (10:09):
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Daniel: of a lot of these there's a lot of different kind of subcategories but (10:12):
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Daniel: in a in a fundamental sense they're all kind (10:15):
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Daniel: of veridical visions of a distant death but it (10:18):
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Daniel: was the the kind of spread of accounts there that (10:20):
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Daniel: struck me and i there were some cross-cultural accounts (10:24):
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Daniel: there too and it was it was (10:27):
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Daniel: when i read that that i thought this needs to be expanded and (10:30):
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Daniel: not only this needs to be expanded but i believe if i (10:33):
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Daniel: look for these accounts i will find them i was (10:36):
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Daniel: convinced that i would find them and thankfully that did (10:39):
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Daniel: turn out to be the case because it seems a it (10:42):
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Daniel: seems to be a very widespread and (10:46):
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Daniel: natural part of the human experience that we just happen to (10:49):
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Daniel: not necessarily have the context to assimilate now if you know what i mean yeah (10:52):
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Daniel: we don't necessarily have the language or the context to for it to easily exist (10:56):
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Daniel: among us if you know what i mean something which wasn't necessarily the case (11:02):
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Daniel: at all times in all places so and yet it still occurs it (11:06):
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Jason: Sounds like you've looked at some of the scientific literature around it i'm (11:10):
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Jason: sure probably quite a lot even though people don't fully understand it are there (11:14):
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Jason: What are the most compelling theories or explanations as to what it is from (11:21):
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Jason: a scientific standpoint? (11:26):
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Daniel: Well... (11:28):
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Daniel: Historically, the idea has been that these experiences either, (11:31):
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Daniel: and this may be a false dichotomy by the way, (11:38):
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Daniel: either constitute evidence for survival or speak to the extent to which (11:41):
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Daniel: telepathy exists between individuals. (11:49):
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Daniel: That's kind of been the raging debate of (11:51):
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Daniel: the last 200 odd years kind of since (11:54):
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Daniel: the late 19th century or in (11:57):
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Daniel: my opinion there's no real i don't (12:00):
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Daniel: really see separation there and because (12:03):
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Daniel: of course if mind can communicate with mind (12:07):
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Daniel: then you're if you beg the question that (12:10):
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Daniel: mind has to be attached to brain then of (12:13):
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Daniel: course you will have the dichotomy of it's either telepathy in the brain or (12:16):
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Daniel: survival but the reality of course is that we don't know we can't we don't know (12:20):
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Daniel: enough to casually speak to the nature of the connection between conscious and (12:26):
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Daniel: the brain such that we can make that dichotomy in my opinion that's (12:31):
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Jason: A really that's a really good point. (12:34):
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Daniel: And they (12:36):
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Jason: Don't know it if they don't know it enough well enough to replicate it with (12:37):
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Jason: artificial intelligence i mean in artificial intelligence research the whole (12:41):
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Jason: question of what is consciousness is it's almost a non-starter they don't know so. (12:46):
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Daniel: It is it is an important point because it can be very can be kind of very easily (12:52):
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Daniel: dismissed as the some sort of i mean (12:59):
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Daniel: the reality is like the all other than survival one of the alternate explanations (13:05):
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Daniel: and the most common, again, (13:12):
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Daniel: I use the word skeptical, one of the most common explanations for those, (13:14):
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Daniel: let's say, who don't necessarily think that it would constitute evidence for survival would be (13:19):
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Daniel: That it is the again that the (13:25):
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Daniel: telepathic the it is the (13:28):
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Daniel: kind of a message reaching from the individual (13:31):
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Daniel: in their death throes to the person at (13:34):
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Daniel: a distance there's but there's so many books that (13:37):
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Daniel: deal with individual cases and kind of deal (13:40):
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Daniel: with specific cases where this can't be it doesn't (13:44):
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Daniel: make sense because for instance just one example we know that (13:47):
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Daniel: telepathy generally happens between or at least this (13:50):
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Daniel: thing that is assumed to be called sabbath ostensibly (13:53):
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Daniel: occurs between individuals who are closely connected and we (13:58):
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Daniel: look at the crisis operation this is also the case and what's (14:01):
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Daniel: interesting is that also comes out historically you'll see this a lot in (14:04):
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Daniel: the accounts but in the lives of the saints for instance often it's (14:07):
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Daniel: the individual with a strong connection (14:10):
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Daniel: to that saint or the other or vice versa who experiences (14:13):
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Daniel: the operation but the point i'm making is that many of (14:16):
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Daniel: these in many in some of these cases there isn't unnecessarily any strong connection (14:20):
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Daniel: between the object of the vision and the subject of the vision so there so there (14:24):
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Daniel: isn't necessarily the easy path to say oh it's it's this telepathic connection type of thing but (14:30):
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Daniel: It's it's i would say it's very much on the table even okay actually there's (14:38):
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Daniel: something i didn't want to say there as well that came to mind, (14:42):
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Daniel: which was that it's fundamentally the skeptical argument. (14:44):
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Daniel: And I didn't, I'm not necessarily, I'm not like hugely interested in really (14:48):
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Daniel: getting deep into, is it representative of survival or not? But I do like the conversation. (14:52):
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Daniel: So, but one of the most fundamental skeptical arguments would be very simple, a coincidence. (14:58):
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Daniel: That's the, for me, that's unsatisfactory. (15:04):
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Daniel: I'm not necessarily saying it's untrue, but I would say that it's completely (15:07):
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Daniel: unsatisfactory in the face of some of the highly specific cases. (15:11):
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Daniel: Like, I mean, some of the most famous cases are those in which the individual, (15:16):
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Daniel: the object of the vision, the dying person, appears in the clothing, (15:22):
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Daniel: for instance, that they appeared in at the time of death, or the wound that (15:29):
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Daniel: killed them was represented upon their figure. (15:33):
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Daniel: And I mean, the problem with coincidence in these cases is that you start piling up the coincidences. (15:37):
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Jason: You say like, okay. (15:43):
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Daniel: So this individual had a quote unquote hallucination, (15:46):
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Daniel: which happened to occur at the (15:50):
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Daniel: time of the the death of a loved one but not (15:53):
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Daniel: only did it happen to occur at the time of the death of the loved one (15:56):
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Daniel: it also happened to represent aspects of the actual death accurately and the (15:58):
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Daniel: individual didn't have a history of these hallucinations there's there's a lot (16:05):
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Daniel: of it's a lot more complex than simply dismissing these accounts are the people (16:10):
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Daniel: who dismiss the accounts necessarily wrong? No. (16:16):
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Daniel: But the approach I don't think is, I think it's unhelpful. I really do. (16:18):
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Daniel: Not to mention that the majority of pathological hallucinations are auditory. (16:23):
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Daniel: But we know that that's not the case with the crisis operation, (16:29):
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Daniel: which is interesting as well, which would suggest kind of even at a base level (16:31):
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Daniel: that they're not necessarily tied to pathology. (16:37):
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Jason: Interesting. So unpack that a little bit more. (16:40):
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Jason: So auditory hallucinations are often symptomatic of pathology is that do i have that correct. (16:44):
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Daniel: Absolutely like schizophrenia and other types of afflictions of that of that kind but that doesn't (16:51):
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Jason: Occur with the crisis apparition. (16:58):
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Daniel: It's not you know it's not the majority of accounts there are auditory (17:00):
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Daniel: apparitions absolutely but they're by no means the majority of the accounts (17:06):
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Daniel: they're much smaller compared to the visual or the intuition type accounts, et cetera, et cetera. (17:09):
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Daniel: It's a kind of an interesting jumping off point when it comes to the conversation about hallucinations. (17:17):
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Daniel: I mean, the reality is that with the crisis, whatever it is, (17:23):
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Daniel: It's very hard to classify as the same thing as, for instance, (17:29):
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Daniel: an after-death communication, which would be, I know this individual is dead. (17:34):
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Daniel: A week, two weeks, three weeks after the death, I have an experience where I (17:39):
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Daniel: believe I've been contacted by them. (17:44):
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Daniel: I may see them. I may hear that they may offer advice, as the dead have always done historically. (17:46):
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Daniel: Again, the similarities persist. exist, but it's fundamentally different because (17:52):
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Daniel: one can ascribe those maybe to wish fulfillment. (17:56):
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Daniel: One can ascribe those maybe to grief-induced hallucination, which is a real (18:00):
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Daniel: phenomenon, bereavement, stress, et cetera, et cetera. (18:05):
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Daniel: With the crisis apparition, particularly in the more ideal cases, (18:09):
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Daniel: there is no expectation of death. (18:13):
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Jason: Right, right, right. There's nothing to grieve yet. (18:15):
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Daniel: There's nothing to grieve. and not only that but often (18:18):
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Daniel: it's the opposite is true like in many of the accounts it's specified (18:21):
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Daniel: that the individual wasn't known (18:25):
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Daniel: to be even ill and that's if they even were ill (18:28):
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Daniel: because there are many crisis accounts which occur when the (18:31):
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Daniel: individual knows that the loved one is ill but in (18:34):
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Daniel: many of even in a significant majority of those accounts (18:38):
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Daniel: it's specified that however there was (18:40):
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Daniel: no expectation of death anytime soon like (18:44):
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Daniel: that's why the i suppose this (18:48):
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Daniel: is really why the experience gripped me in the first place it's that (18:51):
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Daniel: fundamental it's the extent to which it's (18:54):
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Daniel: hard to tie the experience to the individual's mind it's very hard to say it (18:58):
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Daniel: originated inside the mind of the individual right because for those reasons (19:04):
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Daniel: there is no expectation of death there is no like And even if there was, (19:09):
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Daniel: the odds of the quote-unquote hallucination occurring at the exact time with (19:15):
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Daniel: these highly idiosyncratic features which reference death, often the experience (19:21):
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Daniel: is specifically symbolic of death, (19:27):
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Daniel: even culturally symbolic of death. (19:29):
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Daniel: Like there are specific cases in the book, for example, where the clothing that (19:32):
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Daniel: a particular culture associates with death is worn by the object of the vision. (19:37):
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Daniel: Which, I mean, it's strange enough that you're seeing a person in a form, (19:44):
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Daniel: in any kind of form, at the time they happen to be dying. (19:50):
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Daniel: But you're telling me they're also symbolically representing death in a way (19:54):
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Daniel: that your culture specifically represents death. (19:59):
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Daniel: It's very interesting. It's very strange. (20:02):
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Jason: Well, there's also, even as I'm thinking about it, the experience in my own (20:04):
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Jason: family, a lot of these can be seen by multiple people. (20:09):
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Daniel: 100 there's a chapter oddly enough it but the thing this is the this is the (20:13):
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Daniel: funny thing of the crisis operation and these non-ordinary experiences especially (20:19):
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Daniel: for you and me for the observer for the reader they do odd is the word they (20:24):
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Daniel: do seem unusual they do seem strange (20:29):
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Daniel: And i'll say that absolutely in many accounts that does come out there's no doubt about that (20:31):
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Daniel: even it can veer towards frightening at times (20:37):
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Daniel: for some people it's not all daisies and (20:40):
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Daniel: roses in as we know in the paranormal but what's (20:43):
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Daniel: interesting is how how often you also hear that (20:46):
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Daniel: this felt entirely natural this like (20:49):
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Daniel: it felt like the most natural thing in the world this (20:53):
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Daniel: is supposed to happen you even hear people (20:56):
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Daniel: kind of having an inner dialogue like like i (20:59):
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Daniel: know this is strange why am I seeing person in front (21:01):
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Daniel: of me why am I again then getting the phone call that (21:04):
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Daniel: they've died etc but I understand I understand that (21:07):
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Daniel: it's kind of the way things work the natural (21:10):
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Daniel: order of the cosmos and I'm just happened to be privy to (21:13):
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Daniel: it in this strange moment it's it's very interesting it's (21:17):
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Daniel: it comes out of the near-death experience too it's kind of similar in (21:20):
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Daniel: that regard often people say I left my body obviously (21:23):
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Daniel: never done that before I was floating I looked down (21:27):
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Daniel: on my body I was at the doctors etc etc were working on me however I didn't (21:30):
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Daniel: find it in any way strange it was the most natural thing in the world and I (21:35):
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Daniel: didn't have a worry it's very interesting how common that is in across both (21:39):
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Daniel: accounts is it always case no but it's absolutely worthy of note is (21:42):
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Jason: There a real spread in people's I would imagine and similar to the near-death (21:48):
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Jason: experience between people's reactions for instance from what I know of the near-death (21:52):
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Jason: experience most people will talk about seeing a light that they're supposed (21:58):
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Jason: to go into and messages to let go but some people have a have a hell trip, (22:03):
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Jason: yeah they absolutely do i don't know what the percentages are on that but. (22:08):
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Daniel: It's i believe it's relatively low but not (22:13):
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Daniel: low enough to ignore by any means i i (22:16):
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Daniel: can't the statistics are definitely kind of (22:19):
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Daniel: elude me right now but with hellish near-death experiences it (22:22):
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Daniel: maybe in the five to like (22:25):
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Daniel: eight percent range maybe but it is something (22:28):
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Daniel: that certain researchers picked up on and like (22:32):
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Daniel: maurice rawlings beyond death's (22:35):
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Daniel: door maybe he wrote about it kind of the ring address in (22:38):
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Daniel: his work it is something that definitely should be addressed (22:41):
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Daniel: but as you you're relating specifically to the crisis operation and the spread (22:44):
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Daniel: of reactions there is absolutely a spread of reactions but i would say from (22:47):
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Daniel: my reading and if you read the book there is a sense I would say historically (22:52):
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Daniel: there is the sense that it is kind of (22:58):
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Daniel: In favor of a positive reaction, absolutely. And I would say that it's rare (23:03):
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Daniel: to, I would actually say that it's pretty rare to just read an entirely negative (23:09):
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Daniel: reaction to these experiences, though they do exist. (23:13):
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Daniel: They absolutely do exist because they can be frightening for particular people (23:16):
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Daniel: in particular situations. (23:20):
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Daniel: And I mean, the reality is some of these operations, they manifest quite, (23:21):
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Daniel: you know, gory or usually representing presenting the, especially in many accounts, (23:28):
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Daniel: there's many of these accounts which turn up during the wars, (23:35):
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Daniel: World War I and II, et cetera, et cetera. (23:38):
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Daniel: The individual may have been shot, et cetera, and that will kind of be an aspect of the vision. (23:41):
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Daniel: But I remember in the book, there's an account from Northern Ireland where the young boy, (23:45):
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Daniel: I believe he was 19 and he was at war and he when (23:54):
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Daniel: he appeared he was i believe he's coming up with (23:59):
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Daniel: the guard his grandmother looked at the window so i'm coming with the garden (24:01):
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Daniel: and for whatever reason she saw that he was completely covered and caked in (24:05):
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Daniel: mud and dirt etc and she went to say hello he just he wasn't there the news (24:09):
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Daniel: came shortly after that he had died like in a trench and he was actually full of mud, et cetera. (24:15):
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Daniel: So there can be elements of that as well. And that actually comes out historically too. (24:20):
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Daniel: You will see in the Norse sagas, for instance, you will see the ghosts very (24:26):
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Daniel: common there, or the revenants even. They very commonly display (24:31):
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Daniel: The actual nature of their death on their body. And that evens down to the earth (24:36):
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Daniel: and to the water. You will have the very similar accounts. (24:42):
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Daniel: And there are multiple of those accounts in the book. (24:44):
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Jason: Amazing. Yeah, I was kind of getting chills there because just because that (24:48):
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Jason: was similar to a story, you're just relating that story about somebody walking (24:51):
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Jason: up a driveway, which was similar to the one in my family. (24:55):
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Jason: And it's just like- Really? Yeah, which I had not said to you. (24:58):
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Jason: Wow. Okay. But it seems, yeah, I mean, there you go. (25:01):
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Daniel: That's the connection, isn't it? Right there is the similarities across time. (25:05):
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Daniel: That speaks to it, but also the connection between the sagas and the Northern Irish account. (25:09):
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Daniel: Account, like this is the point of these apparitions is that there is very commonly, (25:13):
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Daniel: like across the literature that deals with ghosts and this kind of the sociology (25:19):
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Daniel: of ghosts and the history of ghosts, (25:25):
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Daniel: you very commonly read the ghosts in this era behaved this way, (25:27):
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Daniel: then they behaved that way. (25:32):
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Daniel: And it's always related to the era and the needs of the individuals and the (25:33):
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Daniel: needs of the ghosts, et cetera. (25:37):
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Daniel: It's not necessarily the case though. They're like (25:38):
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Daniel: The crisis-apparition has remained essentially stable through time, (25:42):
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Daniel: with very little variation. (25:46):
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Daniel: And even the cultural window dressing is relatively to... It's kept relatively (25:49):
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Daniel: to a minimum, especially when you compare it to other things such as the near-death (25:54):
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Daniel: experience, et cetera. That's really interesting. Fundamental experience is the same. (25:58):
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Jason: That's really interesting. And I wanted to ask you about that, (26:01):
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Jason: about cultural differences around the world. (26:03):
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Jason: And it's interesting you brought up auditory hallucinations. (26:06):
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Jason: There was a woman named Tanya Lerman who did a study of people who had reported (26:10):
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Jason: voices speaking to them or spirits speaking, (26:16):
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Jason: like basically contact with the non-human intelligence as something speaking in their head. (26:19):
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Jason: Okay. And her conclusion was that it was very culturally determined in the sense (26:25):
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Jason: that in Western European cultures, those experiences are frowned upon and considered pathological. (26:32):
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Jason: And and so a lot of social (26:40):
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Jason: stigma and exclusion comes with them and so (26:43):
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Jason: people but she noticed that people overwhelmingly (26:46):
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Jason: tended to experience voices of divinity as angry and punishing as like an old (26:50):
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Jason: testament god and conversely she found that people in particularly africa but (26:59):
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Jason: also india who had experiences of divinity, (27:06):
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Jason: what they believe to be divinity or spirit speaking to them in their head. (27:10):
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Jason: Usually there were very comforting voices and had the guise of, (27:13):
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Jason: you know, family ancestor spirits instead of an angry Jehovah. (27:19):
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Jason: So that's a pretty big spread. That's a pretty big spread right there. (27:24):
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Jason: So I wanted to ask you about that, if there were cultural differences in these (27:28):
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Jason: experiences or it sounds more like not from what you're saying. Yeah. (27:32):
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Daniel: Like the thing about the crisis apparition is that especially when you compare it to (27:37):
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Daniel: the near-death experience or kind of after-death communication like it's very (27:42):
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Daniel: brief it's often very brief and (27:45):
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Daniel: that kind of you know that in a way that benefits as a historical entity (27:48):
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Daniel: Because there isn't much time for the wind addressing there isn't much time (27:54):
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Daniel: like even in the the hagi even in the like the literature related to the lives of the saints the vitae (27:58):
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Daniel: Accounts are extremely brief they're (28:04):
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Daniel: given very short shrift it's usually for instance (28:08):
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Daniel: the irish saint columba will (28:12):
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Daniel: suddenly announce to his brothers that such and such has passed at this moment (28:16):
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Daniel: and then the news comes that he did pass that moment like this is there isn't (28:20):
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Daniel: much room there for window dressing although from the outside you could say (28:25):
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Daniel: especially as a hagi a biographer of the saint, (28:30):
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Daniel: you could say the experience itself is the culture dressing. (28:32):
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Daniel: It's a way to sanctify the saint. (28:36):
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Daniel: It's a way to speak to his powers and his specific unique skills. (28:38):
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Daniel: And that is absolutely the case. (28:43):
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Daniel: But unfortunately, those hagiographers are not generally aware of how common (28:45):
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Daniel: the phenomenon actually is amongst ordinary people. (28:50):
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Daniel: And it's to the extent that, at least in my opinion, (28:53):
undefined

Daniel: these crisis operations were implemented in (28:57):
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Daniel: those hagiography specifically because they (29:00):
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Daniel: were known about specifically because the the (29:03):
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Daniel: extent to which they knew it would speak to the individual having (29:06):
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Daniel: a special relationship to the cosmos so again (29:09):
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Daniel: as a historical entity there isn't much room now there is a chapter in the book (29:13):
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Daniel: about specifically regarding visions and dream crisis accounts that are allegorical (29:18):
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Daniel: and symbolic Now there is where you will see some of the cultural window dressing (29:25):
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Daniel: like I alluded to earlier. (29:30):
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Daniel: You may see specific death clothing particular to that culture. (29:32):
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Daniel: You may see, for instance, Polynesian or Icelandic accounts. (29:37):
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Daniel: The ghosts there are very very commonly (29:43):
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Daniel: will appear watery or having died in a water grave because unlike a lot of different (29:46):
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Daniel: regions those types of deaths are considered good in those regions deaths at (29:53):
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Daniel: sea so like there are absolutely cultural elements to it (29:58):
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Daniel: we were i think kind of at the point where we need (30:05):
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Daniel: to get to the core of the experience and we've seen this with (30:08):
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Daniel: the near-death experience now the great work like the likes of gregory (30:11):
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Daniel: shushan etc we've seen this where okay (30:14):
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Daniel: we can point to the window dressing we can point to the differences it's the (30:17):
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Daniel: core similar similarity of the experience that's important and in the case of (30:23):
undefined

Daniel: the crisis aversion it's the veridicality that's important it's the extent to (30:28):
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Daniel: which it coincides with that distant event and it does and that's the interesting thing it really does (30:32):
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Jason: You've also mentioned you've talked a lot about this occurring throughout history so. (30:38):
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Daniel: I'm guessing this has been reported more it (30:43):
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Jason: Sounds like it's also been reported more or less the same across cultures throughout (30:46):
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Jason: history and how far do accounts of this go back i mean are there particularly famous ones? (30:50):
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Daniel: The furthest back, well, okay. Well, we could look, if you want to go really (30:57):
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Daniel: far back in terms of the concept. (31:02):
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Daniel: Now I did, I have looked through a lot of the Sumerian literature, for instance. (31:05):
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Daniel: And there are many, there are references, if you want to really go further back (31:11):
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Daniel: in terms of like the idea or the potentiality or the cultural milieu where it could exist, (31:15):
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Daniel: there are many tablets which (31:22):
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Daniel: speak of ghosts that the individual doesn't know (31:25):
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Daniel: coming to them and you could you could take (31:28):
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Daniel: from that by definition the individual is learning of a death then is it necessarily (31:32):
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Daniel: christ separation no but in many ways even that in and of itself is arbitrary (31:37):
undefined

Daniel: and the reason is that like in the late late 19th century and phantasms of the (31:44):
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Daniel: living giving the seminal volume dealing with (31:48):
undefined

Daniel: Hundreds and hundreds of these accounts, the crisis apparition was defined as (31:51):
undefined

Daniel: either 12 hours before the death or 12 hours after the death. (31:56):
undefined

Daniel: It's helpful. It was helpful for writing a giant of this treatise. (32:00):
undefined

Daniel: But obviously, to some extent, it's arbitrary. (32:04):
undefined

Daniel: Clearly, 13 hours isn't going to discount as a crisis apparition. (32:07):
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Daniel: For me personally, for me, the interesting thing is learning of a a death that (32:11):
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Daniel: you didn't know about, which is then confirmed. (32:17):
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Daniel: So for me, even the likes of these kind of hunter type ghosts, (32:19):
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Daniel: the more classic hunter tales type ghosts, they even fit into that category for me personally. (32:23):
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Daniel: You could learn about it. You could have the operational experience, (32:29):
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Daniel: speak to the former homeowner, very common experience, see a photograph, that was him, et cetera. (32:33):
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Daniel: You learned about a death by non-ordinary means. (32:39):
undefined

Daniel: That's for me, the important thing but so that's a reference to sumerian tablets (32:41):
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Daniel: but specifically this most the oldest specific crisis apparition that came to (32:46):
undefined

Daniel: was absolutely the egyptian pharaoh aman emhat and the apparition is a very (32:51):
undefined

Daniel: it's it's very simple it's written on a beautiful piece of (32:57):
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Daniel: Poetry i believe on a on a tablet as well and it's very simple it's the father's (33:01):
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Daniel: ghost coming to his son, Senosruet, probably butchered that name, (33:08):
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Daniel: but he simply states that, here I am, I died, this is how I died, (33:13):
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Daniel: the soldiers killed me, and then they move on. (33:19):
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Daniel: What's interesting about that account is that if you read all of the commentaries (33:22):
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Daniel: around that account, there's really no sense of that aspect of the experience. (33:26):
undefined

Daniel: It's generally considered more something along the lines of a political commentary. (33:32):
undefined

Daniel: You know, sociologists will look at it, different scientists will look at it, (33:35):
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Daniel: but they don't look at it in that perspective. (33:39):
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Daniel: For me, that's the earliest recorded crisis apparition that I've been able to (33:41):
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Daniel: find. There's probably more. (33:45):
undefined

Daniel: I'm sure there are more, but I couldn't find them. And that's why I opened the (33:47):
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Daniel: book with that account in the first chapter. (33:52):
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Daniel: It kind of sets the pace, especially among the Egyptians where contact with (33:54):
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Daniel: the dead was such a common thing, such an expected experience. (33:59):
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Daniel: They wrote, people wrote letters to the dead. regularly detailed letters (34:03):
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Jason: There's one point that you were making that i really wanted to highlight, (34:07):
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Jason: which is how simple and prosaic actual paranormal experiences can be and so (34:12):
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Jason: you know i talk a lot about magic on this podcast and and spirituality and ceremonial (34:18):
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Jason: magic and things like that and experiences that people have through i would (34:24):
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Jason: say art of trying to artificially induce, (34:30):
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Jason: consciousness expanding or paranormal experiences whether it's through ritual (34:33):
undefined

Jason: or and or psychedelics are not the same as. (34:37):
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Daniel: The spontaneous you mean (34:42):
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Jason: Absolutely not no it's more like if they're more like waking dreams or internal (34:43):
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Jason: hallucinations or internal perception shifts for the most part but then when (34:48):
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Jason: you actually have what could truly be called supernatural experiences (34:54):
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Jason: in my experience they're often very simple (34:59):
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Jason: very straightforward not i mean (35:02):
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Jason: they can be startling but not spooky i don't think (35:05):
undefined

Jason: and much in the way that you've described why that is i don't know but i think (35:08):
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Jason: also your point about it being seeming natural is also like can seem like the (35:13):
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Jason: most natural thing in the world is also interesting and it. (35:20):
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Daniel: Does stand in stark contrast to the general kind of sense or expectation of (35:26):
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Daniel: the ghost experience or the paranormal it's very interesting (35:33):
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Jason: Yeah I mean it's definitely not very not Hollywood yeah. (35:35):
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Daniel: Absolutely it's far from the chain clanking ghosts of like Gothic literature (35:39):
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Daniel: for instance it's it's not the same thing and And it really does. (35:46):
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Daniel: It's interesting. I think it's interesting. (35:52):
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Daniel: Early on, that was actually picked up on as one of the reasons why the accounts (35:56):
undefined

Daniel: were not published in numbers. (36:02):
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Daniel: That's what's interesting about it. Like, I remember Andrew Lang, (36:03):
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Daniel: Irish folklorist, like pioneering Irish folklorist, incredible work. (36:07):
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Daniel: Incredible work was dealing with the i with the kind of ideas that paranormal experiences (36:10):
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Daniel: our beliefs are actually based on real events he he and others their sense was (36:16):
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Daniel: that these accounts are so common that they're actually mundane and they're (36:23):
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Daniel: so mundane that i don't want to keep publishing them to brother reader i (36:27):
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Jason: Think that's probably true yeah. (36:31):
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Daniel: Just well let's not say that with my book on the shelf well (36:32):
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Jason: I didn't mean about the publishing i meant about them being about them being. (36:36):
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Daniel: Widespread, (36:40):
undefined

Jason: Widespread, widespread. For sure, for sure. (36:42):
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Daniel: It's funny, because I had that in mind when I was writing the book the whole (36:43):
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Daniel: time. I was like, God damn, they might be right. We'll see how this goes. (36:46):
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Jason: But I was- Well, I think quite the opposite. People are forever fascinated with this topic. (36:49):
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Jason: And I think that the universality of it is so striking. (36:55):
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Daniel: It really is, yeah. Across cultures, across time. (37:02):
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Daniel: Extraordinarily similar and i agree i think that many people not necessarily (37:06):
undefined

Daniel: they don't necessarily want to talk about it more but they want that when it's (37:12):
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Daniel: spoken about it doesn't fall on deaf ears you know it kind of reminds me of sorry go ahead oh (37:16):
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Jason: No well i'm just agreeing and i think also that it's it's confirming you know (37:21):
undefined

Jason: this is one of the reasons why i asked you about the span of the spread of reactions (37:26):
undefined

Jason: because this can certainly frighten some people but it sounded like some of (37:29):
undefined

Jason: people that you were talking about it was a very positive thing you know it could show, (37:34):
undefined

Jason: one of the most important things for people is to feel that there's positive (37:39):
undefined

Jason: and you know the universe is a positive place because everything else flows (37:42):
undefined

Jason: from that and experiences like that can show you yeah well potentially. (37:46):
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Daniel: 100 without any shadow of (37:52):
undefined

Daniel: a doubt like this comes down to kind of the (37:55):
undefined

Daniel: fundamental dichotomy in this field and these fields (37:58):
undefined

Daniel: like the the idea that (38:01):
undefined

Daniel: survival either has or hasn't been proved (38:05):
undefined

Daniel: okay we can talk about that but let's talk (38:08):
undefined

Daniel: about the fact that for these individuals i mean (38:10):
undefined

Daniel: there is no doubt i mean author of (38:13):
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Daniel: dreams at the threshold a great book jean van bronckhorst she wrote (38:16):
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Daniel: that these accounts instill the individual with a marvelous (38:20):
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Daniel: wondrous certainty regarding the the continuance (38:23):
undefined

Daniel: of the soul etc etc these accounts like um (38:27):
undefined

Daniel: you're taught it's very hard to get across just unless (38:30):
undefined

Daniel: you've experienced it just how how extraordinary these instances are like in (38:33):
undefined

Daniel: a moment your entire sense of your place in the cosmos can change your the entirety (38:38):
undefined

Daniel: of your relation to it is it unfeeling is it cold does it have me in mind mind, maybe it does. (38:46):
undefined

Daniel: That's what these experiences say to people. They say, maybe it actually does. (38:53):
undefined

Daniel: Maybe I was looking at this the wrong way around. (38:56):
undefined

Daniel: And that's something that doesn't come to people very easily outside of these experiences. (38:58):
undefined

Daniel: As I'm sure you know, that's something that can take a long time. (39:03):
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Jason: Yeah, that's a really profound thing. Do you get, are there religious overtones (39:06):
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Jason: to any of these, like with religious symbolism or judgment? (39:11):
undefined

Jason: Hints of afterlife times like that. (39:16):
undefined

Daniel: Well certainly okay so without (39:18):
undefined

Daniel: any doubt this comes up in the near-death (39:21):
undefined

Daniel: accounts we spoke earlier about the peak and (39:25):
undefined

Daniel: darian experiences which is kind of essentially (39:27):
undefined

Daniel: a christ separation but during the death experience so while (39:30):
undefined

Daniel: you're away while you're in the other world there (39:34):
undefined

Daniel: you may meet somebody at the time you believe (39:37):
undefined

Daniel: to be alive but you come back you're resuscitated and (39:40):
undefined

Daniel: you discover they're dead but not only do you discover they're (39:43):
undefined

Daniel: dead in many cases the individuals at the (39:46):
undefined

Daniel: attending to you we're also unaware of the death so you're actually telling (39:49):
undefined

Daniel: them something new but which is a fascinating in of itself and but obviously (39:53):
undefined

Daniel: some of the more typical visions of heaven and hell kind of across the medieval (40:00):
undefined

Daniel: period for For instance, (40:08):
undefined

Daniel: like there will be hellish elements in those visions because the individual is, you know, seeing, (40:09):
undefined

Daniel: they're seeing hell, they're purgatory, (40:15):
undefined

Daniel: they're seeing the kind of punishments that you will incur if you don't live (40:18):
undefined

Daniel: life in this particular way. (40:23):
undefined

Daniel: Way, this is the problem with the crisis aberration as a historical entity too, (40:24):
undefined

Daniel: because you can read these accounts of purgatory, et cetera, (40:28):
undefined

Daniel: and clearly they're edifying, clearly they're (40:33):
undefined

Daniel: Attempting to instill values without any shadow of a doubt, but hidden in there (40:36):
undefined

Daniel: are these experiences which are indistinguishable from the types of paranormal (40:42):
undefined

Daniel: experiences people are having today. (40:46):
undefined

Daniel: So you can throw out the baby with the bathwater, if you know what I mean. (40:48):
undefined

Daniel: You can say this entire vision is that (40:51):
undefined

Daniel: so let's not look at it further and it's so to (40:54):
undefined

Daniel: address your point specifically because they're having a vision may include (40:58):
undefined

Daniel: hellish imagery you will see hellish imagery at a time you're discovering a (41:03):
undefined

Daniel: death but that generally isn't something that occurs amongst ordinary people (41:07):
undefined

Daniel: or outside of the kind of high geographical or kind of (41:12):
undefined

Daniel: miracle literature, something kind of specific to that. (41:17):
undefined

Daniel: Interesting. (41:23):
undefined

Jason: Have you come to any suspicions or maybe even conclusions about afterlife, (41:25):
undefined

Jason: anything based on studying these experiences? (41:33):
undefined

Jason: To is do they suggest that do they suggest (41:36):
undefined

Jason: that there is a place or a sense (41:40):
undefined

Jason: of location where these are or dimensionality where this these are taking place (41:42):
undefined

Jason: like is there we're seeing these beings but is there a suggestion that they (41:46):
undefined

Jason: are also in some type of afterlife experience or interesting is that pointed (41:52):
undefined

Jason: to at all can you kind of extrapolate any further territory That. (41:57):
undefined

Daniel: Is a very interesting question. Like there are, absolutely, by the way, (42:01):
undefined

Daniel: there is a subsection of accounts wherein the, okay, so there's a subset. (42:06):
undefined

Daniel: First of all, you will have accounts where the apparitional figure will specifically (42:13):
undefined

Daniel: say, commonly they will just simply either say or emote a goodbye. (42:18):
undefined

Daniel: That's very common. but specifically they may say i'm going to such and such (42:23):
undefined

Daniel: a place to this beautiful place or to be with these specific people the the (42:28):
undefined

Daniel: language can actually be symbolical very commonly to (42:33):
undefined

Daniel: the apparition could turn up with a suitcase or train tickets there there's (42:38):
undefined

Daniel: a there's a sense that they're going somewhere as opposed to you know leaving (42:43):
undefined

Daniel: this life there's a sense that (42:48):
undefined

Daniel: something is continuing and there is a place to go next. That's the sense that (42:49):
undefined

Daniel: you get from these experiences. (42:54):
undefined

Daniel: But what's interesting for me, and this is something that I'm writing on at (42:55):
undefined

Daniel: the moment, is that we have a pretty good idea of the kind of characteristics (42:59):
undefined

Daniel: and aspects of the near-death experience. It's been pretty well fleshed out. (43:05):
undefined

Daniel: A lot of the time in these crisis operations, you will have observations that (43:09):
undefined

Daniel: suggest suggest that the individual was going through a near-death experience (43:14):
undefined

Daniel: at the time of the encounter. (43:21):
undefined

Daniel: Like there may be an account, for instance, there was an account from Illinois (43:23):
undefined

Daniel: and it was recorded in 1944, I believe, where the individual saw their grandfather (43:27):
undefined

Daniel: at night, they looked out the window, saw their grandfather in the woods, (43:34):
undefined

Daniel: He was specifically going towards a light and he (43:38):
undefined

Daniel: was specifically being greeted into that (43:41):
undefined

Daniel: light wow which is which speaks to your (43:45):
undefined

Daniel: point about does the experience suggest they're going (43:47):
undefined

Daniel: somewhere yes it was in many cases but it (43:50):
undefined

Daniel: even speaks more to a connection between (43:53):
undefined

Daniel: the christ the independent crisis apparition and (43:56):
undefined

Daniel: the near experience which hasn't really been spoken too much at all because (44:00):
undefined

Daniel: that that imagery that that individual is seeing it's highly highly comparable (44:03):
undefined

Daniel: to the near-death experience and we have to remember of course that's at a time (44:08):
undefined

Daniel: when the individual the the subject of the vision had no idea the object of (44:12):
undefined

Daniel: the vision was even dying (44:17):
undefined

Daniel: so that in and of itself brings up a number of questions and it's fascinating and those accounts (44:19):
undefined

Daniel: They're not common but they're not rare either they're (44:25):
undefined

Daniel: somewhere in between one and they're off the the (44:28):
undefined

Daniel: shared death experience this speaks (44:31):
undefined

Daniel: to that a little bit too where you you kind of go half of (44:34):
undefined

Daniel: the way the shared death experiences where the individual (44:37):
undefined

Daniel: may be at the bedside of somebody dying (44:40):
undefined

Daniel: a loved one for instance and they seem (44:43):
undefined

Daniel: to share in a part of the experience with the (44:47):
undefined

Daniel: loved one even to the point where they will they (44:50):
undefined

Daniel: will at least they report that they underwent an aspect (44:53):
undefined

Daniel: of their life review or they watched them going through (44:56):
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Daniel: the review or they fought with them absolutely william (44:59):
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Daniel: peters wrote on this in 2022 an incredible book at the (45:03):
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Daniel: threshold it's really it's a it's a (45:07):
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Daniel: great book and before that raymond moody (45:10):
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Daniel: and paul perry wrote on this as well parting visions (45:13):
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Daniel: maybe i'll i will get you the exact book but they wrote (45:16):
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Daniel: on that and what's interesting about it (45:19):
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Daniel: is that okay there's a couple of things many interesting things about it obviously (45:22):
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Daniel: but one of them is that it it's this is what's interesting about these visions (45:25):
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Daniel: is that they they contextually make sense in other words like for instance the (45:31):
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Daniel: individual may go through some of the life review with the dying loved one they may go (45:36):
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Daniel: Some of the way but they don't go all the way they will (45:42):
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Daniel: be stopped and the other will pass they will (45:45):
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Daniel: not be able to cross the river the (45:49):
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Daniel: other will cross the river etc or they will be told (45:51):
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Daniel: that they must return while the other goes on and of (45:54):
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Daniel: course when they come out of that experience they discover the individual (45:57):
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Daniel: has died there and then but just to relate that again to the christ apparition (46:00):
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Daniel: is that it's very similar to what i spoke about for instance in that illinois (46:04):
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Daniel: account where it's almost like you were privy to it you shared in it a little (46:09):
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Daniel: bit you for whatever reason for whatever quirk of the cosmos, (46:14):
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Daniel: you in that moment got to share in a little bit of that experience. (46:18):
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Daniel: And it's an incredible, strange mystery. It really is. It really is. (46:23):
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Jason: You mentioned a river. Is that something that people report frequently? (46:28):
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Daniel: During the near-death experience, one of the most common features is a barrier, (46:33):
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Daniel: a point where it may be a river, it may be a bridge, it could be a lake, it may be invisible, (46:37):
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Daniel: it may be just a sense of place. (46:46):
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Daniel: But the common sense is, if I cross this, I don't come back. (46:49):
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Daniel: I don't get the chance to return to my body. (46:54):
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Daniel: It's an incredibly visceral sense that comes across in these accounts. (46:56):
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Daniel: If I cross here, that's it. it i don't you do get the choice for the most part (47:00):
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Daniel: you do seem to get the choice but for whatever way (47:05):
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Daniel: the physics of the afterlife works if i can use that terminology (47:09):
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Daniel: if you go past that point you are not coming (47:12):
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Daniel: back and what so it's so therefore in a corroborative sense it is interesting (47:15):
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Daniel: that during the shared death experience the individual who isn't dying experiences (47:21):
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Daniel: the same you know barrier or crossing or you shall not pass type of area. (47:26):
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Daniel: So it is interestingly cooperative. (47:32):
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Jason: It makes me think of the river Styx from Greek mythology. (47:34):
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Jason: And I think there's probably other rivers of death. I think there might be one (47:39):
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Jason: in Dante's Inferno. I can't remember. (47:42):
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Daniel: Dante's Inferno. Yeah, Dante's Inferno, absolutely. (47:46):
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Daniel: Highly inspired by medieval evil visionary journeys, lots of near-death imagery in there too. And... (47:51):
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Daniel: The near-death experiences from the medieval period, from the entirety of the (48:00):
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Daniel: Middle Ages, turn up a number of accounts of discoveries of death at a distance. (48:05):
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Daniel: Many of these accounts are spread throughout the book. (48:11):
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Daniel: And it's like in Gregory the Great's dialogues, for instance, there's a number. (48:14):
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Daniel: And what's interesting about this, Gregory the Great, one of the most (48:22):
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Daniel: influential one of the most influential (48:25):
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Daniel: medieval writers in terms of our sense of what constitutes our (48:28):
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Daniel: ideas of spirit ghosts afterlife etc etc many (48:32):
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Daniel: of those accounts where a dissonant death is discovered during (48:36):
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Daniel: the death experience turn up in his work and what's (48:39):
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Daniel: specifically interesting about his work is that a lot (48:42):
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Daniel: of mainstream scholars have actually picked up on this the likes of Carl Zaleski (48:45):
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Daniel: has picked up on this the likes of Lacey Carlson Morley who wrote an excellent (48:49):
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Daniel: book like in the 1930s or 40s picked up on this about greek and roman ghost (48:53):
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Daniel: stories specifically even relating them to i'm just making sure i'm still here specifically (48:56):
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Daniel: related specifically relating them even to the work of psycho psychical researchers (49:04):
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Daniel: which was especially fascinating like you will see a footnote in a very mainstream (49:07):
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Daniel: scholar's work in the 1930s and i may be getting the years wrong but i believe (49:13):
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Daniel: it's not referencing the (49:17):
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Daniel: late 19th century's parapsychologist work and saying, wow, these accounts actually (49:19):
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Daniel: kind of are reminiscent of that. But then they just, they kind of move on, which is fine. (49:25):
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Daniel: That's no, the book isn't about that, but it is interesting the extent to which (49:29):
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Daniel: those references are valuable and rare, but probably more valuable because they're (49:32):
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Daniel: so rare. It's interesting. (49:39):
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Jason: I wonder if it, you know, I have a couple of thoughts. First of all, (49:41):
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Jason: this, this sounds Sounds like the type of thing that the church would have kept records on. (49:45):
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Daniel: Well, in a sense, that is the case with Gregory the Great and the likes of Alfonso (49:51):
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Daniel: Le Jury and there's others. (49:57):
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Daniel: Okay, so what's interesting about what you say there is that there's no doubt (50:00):
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Daniel: that these accounts were picked up on and used and included in these miracle collections, (50:05):
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Daniel: Like specifically in order to speak to the sanctity of someone or to God. (50:13):
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Daniel: Like there are references to, in the saints' lives, there are references to (50:19):
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Daniel: after the saint or the mystic who will become a saint, (50:24):
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Daniel: references this account they say i learned of this death it occurred then there (50:30):
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Daniel: will be the qualification due to like the goodness of god or because of the (50:34):
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Daniel: sanctity of the holy spirit etc (50:39):
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Daniel: so you kind of bookend it and this again speak to the minor but important cultural (50:41):
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Daniel: window addressing that does occur so the hagiographer will say that it occurred (50:47):
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Daniel: in this context the reasoning it's related to god it's related to my religion etc etc (50:53):
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Daniel: But the reader of the hagiography is not the readers, not the contemporaries (51:00):
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Daniel: readers, but ourselves, (51:04):
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Daniel: we will look at both of, we will then say that, well, the entire thing is contrived, (51:06):
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Daniel: but it's, it's, it's the encounter, the extent to which the fundamental experience (51:10):
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Daniel: is indistinguishable from those which occurred long before and long after that explanation, (51:14):
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Daniel: in my opinion, doesn't hold up. And it's the, the book ending that's important. (51:20):
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Daniel: It's, it's the, if you, you could use the word hijacking, but it might be a (51:24):
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Daniel: bit, I don't I don't know, aggressive, but like you're saying, like, I have no doubt. (51:28):
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Daniel: Well, it's inevitable that these accounts occurred in medieval infirmaries, (51:35):
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Daniel: probably as, if not more commonly than, well, maybe not more commonly than today, (51:38):
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Daniel: but certainly relatively commonly. (51:43):
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Daniel: They would have been known about, they would have been in the folklore, (51:45):
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Daniel: they would have been in the, not necessarily the oral traditions, (51:48):
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Daniel: but the in the air, you know. (51:52):
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Daniel: And these are the things that the hagiographer draws upon (51:55):
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Jason: Well they would have been they would have been given great religious significance (51:57):
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Jason: as well and and quite quite literally which is why extremely it occurred to (52:00):
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Jason: me that that seems like the type of thing that records would be kept on but (52:06):
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Jason: one of the reasons i asked that also is just in talking to you it sounds like. (52:09):
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Jason: There's so much literature on this at this point and just the way my mind works (52:15):
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Jason: i was just thinking It would be amazing to get all of that into a data set to (52:19):
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Jason: give to artificial intelligence to look for commonalities and patterns to try (52:25):
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Jason: and see if some of that adds up. (52:30):
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Jason: Because i think that i think that there (52:35):
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Jason: has been a tendency towards surprisingly (52:38):
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Jason: enough this isn't the conclusion i thought i was going to come to (52:42):
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Jason: but i think there's been a tendency towards a little bit too much relativism in (52:44):
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Jason: paranormal psychical research whatever you (52:49):
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Jason: want to call it in the sense that assumption that (52:52):
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Jason: spiritual experiences can be culturally determined that they are largely dependent (52:56):
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Jason: upon the beliefs of the individual that they're malleable that they can be non-local (53:02):
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Jason: or excuse me not non-local but non-linear and my actual experience, (53:08):
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Jason: of paranormal stuff is that it is not it's actually very straightforward and (53:14):
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Jason: linear and tangible and not relative and not and and what you're saying you (53:19):
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Jason: know underlines that where where people are having the same experience cross-culturally. (53:26):
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Jason: Which suggests there really is a transcendent object there that is not culturally (53:32):
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Jason: determined or does not come out merely of the nervous system of the person experiencing (53:37):
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Jason: it. And I think that that's really important. (53:45):
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Jason: And it's reassuring in my own life to come to that conclusion about paranormal (53:48):
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Jason: experiences that they actually are fairly straightforward as reported in the (53:54):
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Jason: even in the Victorian sense sometimes. (53:59):
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Jason: Absolutely so anyways an idea coming out of that as well if we take that as maybe we are seeing, (54:02):
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Jason: little windows or you know i mentioned these experiences maybe these windows (54:08):
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Jason: and the near death experiences as well are little windows or egresses into another (54:12):
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Jason: territory well it would be interesting to to try to corroborate some patterns (54:16):
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Jason: with maybe people haven't picked up on yet. (54:21):
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Daniel: Absolutely i mean that's something i've thought of is the idea of a database (54:24):
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Daniel: the idea of collating creating like many more hundreds of these accounts and (54:29):
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Daniel: making it searchable, et cetera. That is something I've thought about. (54:34):
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Daniel: And I do think that it would be helpful in kind of teasing out those patterns. (54:38):
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Daniel: Just can I make sure you can still hear me? (54:43):
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Jason: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay. (54:45):
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Daniel: It's just that it seems that... Apologies. It does seem that if I click Zoom (54:46):
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Daniel: to kind of minimize the screen, something kind of goes wrong. (54:52):
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Daniel: So apologies if I cut out once more. (54:55):
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Jason: Okay. (54:57):
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Daniel: But, yeah, this idea, in my opinion anyway, it's kind of an easy way out to (54:57):
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Daniel: say everything is culturally determined. (55:04):
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Daniel: We don't need to look deeper into these experiences. (55:07):
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Daniel: We don't need to look at the individual experiences. (55:11):
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Daniel: And their relationship to the experience should they have had (55:16):
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Daniel: the experience what is the context like i mean we spoke (55:19):
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Daniel: about the christian person already like there is no expectation of death there (55:22):
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Daniel: is no easy way to say this is a culturally determined experience based on the (55:25):
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Daniel: individual's expectations or religious thoughts etc etc in many cases they're (55:30):
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Daniel: entirely confounded it's the opposite is true the individual will say well this (55:35):
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Daniel: was confirmed for me that there's something next (55:40):
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Daniel: nothing it wasn't something that i manifested in (55:42):
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Daniel: order to believe something would be next of course the idea that (55:46):
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Daniel: someone could manifest an operation in the (55:50):
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Daniel: moment is an interesting one in of itself which i don't think (55:53):
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Daniel: has necessarily been criticized enough it (55:56):
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Daniel: seems it can happen what do you mean by that (55:59):
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Daniel: i mean in the sense that one of the explanations for the christ various apparition (56:02):
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Daniel: would be that the individual oh I see yeah but of course did the has the individual (56:06):
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Daniel: how does the individual have a history of being able to create a contextually (56:13):
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Daniel: relevant apparition in the at the it's a strange one it's strange yeah (56:16):
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Jason: And why would that be so. (56:21):
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Daniel: Why would that be so yeah and it speaks to your point about relativism it's (56:23):
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Daniel: very easy to dismiss experience without really digging down and saying wait (56:27):
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Daniel: a minute there are some idiosyncrasies going on here that really require exploration (56:31):
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Daniel: and explanation. They really do. Yeah. (56:36):
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Jason: Yeah. And I think that saying these things are culturally determined and more or less, (56:39):
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Jason: individualized and culturally relative hallucinations, I think that that can (56:47):
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Jason: be true for dreams and psychedelic experiences. But even with the psychedelic experience. (56:52):
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Jason: You know i've had lots of really interesting experiences with that where for instance, (56:59):
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Jason: even having experiences with psilocybin mushrooms where i was (57:04):
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Jason: sitting in the middle of of london and tripping (57:07):
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Jason: on mushrooms from notting hill carnival but i was seeing aztec temples in intricate (57:11):
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Jason: geometry wow and my you know mayan architecture and all this stuff in the middle (57:16):
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Jason: of the jungle and that like i was just drinking cheap beer and listening to (57:21):
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Jason: the clash so there I wasn't trying to prompt this experience at all. (57:25):
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Jason: And, you know, my conclusion was, wow, it's like, well, that must be the neurological (57:30):
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Jason: pattern of what mushrooms do in the brain. (57:34):
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Jason: And then the people who were taking these Aztecs, Mayans, you know, (57:37):
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Jason: built their architecture in reference to this. Oh, that's fascinating. (57:41):
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Jason: That was my hypothesis, at least. (57:47):
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Jason: You know, they must have taken these mushrooms and they grow naturally. (57:51):
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Jason: Seen these intricate geometries and from (57:55):
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Jason: that learned just to said we should actually try to (57:58):
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Jason: build that i mean that's pretty straightforward that's fascinating (58:01):
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Jason: yeah and so it is and so and (58:04):
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Jason: i so i just i've had my in my experience whether it's (58:07):
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Jason: this or or past lives or you know some of the other more commonly reported occult (58:10):
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Jason: things my experience has generally been that there is some transcendent object (58:14):
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Jason: there that is beyond the sphere of cultural relativism or personal interpretation (58:20):
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Jason: that is not generated by the individual's background. (58:26):
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Daniel: I would agree. And I would say that even more fundamentally, (58:31):
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Daniel: the dichotomy is a false one here too, in the sense that even if the contents of a hallucination, (58:35):
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Daniel: we'll use that word, or a vision we'll say the contents of (58:43):
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Daniel: a non-ordinary perception even if (58:46):
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Daniel: the entirety of that was contrived or (58:49):
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Daniel: drawn from cultural your ideas your thoughts (58:53):
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Daniel: your culture even that would have nothing to (58:56):
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Daniel: say on whether or not there is a kind of (58:59):
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Daniel: a real fundamental basis to the experience so even if the entirety of the visuals (59:02):
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Daniel: and the audio and everything was culturally contrived it still wouldn't speak (59:09):
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Daniel: to whether or not there is actually a fundamental message or the universe just (59:14):
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Daniel: happens to speak in that way. (59:18):
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Daniel: And that's the way you need to be communicated to in that moment. (59:20):
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Daniel: So in other words, like to dismiss something because it's highly important, (59:24):
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Daniel: tainted in that cultural sense even that even that is a hasty conclusion in (59:29):
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Daniel: my opinion do you think that's go ahead (59:35):
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Jason: Do you think that that's maybe one of the reasons why these (59:38):
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Jason: experiences have been historically a big no-no you know like have been you know (59:40):
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Jason: people interested in the paranormal have been persecuted by the church or or (59:47):
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Jason: by materialist authorities in the and And dangerous in the sense that if you show, (59:52):
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Jason: well, I think truly dangerous in the sense that, first of all, (59:58):
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Jason: if they're not religious in nature, then they show that the truth is beyond (01:00:01):
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Jason: religious control and happens outside of priestcraft. (01:00:06):
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Jason: And then the other is, you know, that also occurred to me is specific, (01:00:10):
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Jason: particularly totalitarian dictators. (01:00:14):
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Jason: One of the reasons that they really, and it's, it's kind of the simple, (01:00:16):
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Jason: one of the reasons why they don't tolerate religion and they hate, (01:00:20):
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Jason: you know, esotericism or anything like that is they don't want anyone believing (01:00:22):
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Jason: in anything other than them. (01:00:26):
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Jason: You know, it's like, it's kind of that simple as they don't want competition (01:00:29):
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Jason: for people's highest allegiance. (01:00:32):
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Jason: And that's kind of the issue with, with, you know, religion and dictatorships. (01:00:34):
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Jason: It's like, well, who do you serve of god or god or the king and we're just people (01:00:39):
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Jason: ultimately it's it's not the king so absolutely corrupt i. (01:00:43):
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Daniel: Would agree with that like i mean historically (01:00:48):
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Daniel: the church and you know these other institutions like (01:00:51):
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Daniel: they it's the okay so it's interesting because (01:00:54):
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Daniel: the ex the extent to which these paranormal non-ordinary experiences like the (01:00:57):
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Daniel: christian for instance the extent to which they're ubiquitous the extent to (01:01:02):
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Daniel: which they're just as i said in the year they're very easy to find yeah it makes (01:01:05):
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Daniel: them very challenging to dismiss as existing okay so (01:01:11):
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Jason: So absolutely yeah so. (01:01:15):
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Daniel: Even for the church like they couldn't necessarily dismiss (01:01:16):
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Daniel: that they're existing but what they do is they write (01:01:20):
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Daniel: these treatises they say that it occurs to this saint (01:01:24):
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Daniel: like they say that like for instance the (01:01:27):
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Daniel: martyr could visit the saint (01:01:29):
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Daniel: or the martyr can visit you in a dream but only (01:01:33):
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Daniel: the saint or the martyr so ordinary people can't (01:01:36):
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Daniel: you know they're in purgatory or they're they're you (01:01:39):
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Daniel: know waiting for the resurrection etc but the point is that my point (01:01:44):
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Daniel: there is to say that because people have visited so (01:01:47):
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Daniel: often by the dead in their dreams there had to be they had (01:01:50):
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Daniel: to say in some context the dead do visit in (01:01:53):
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Daniel: dreams yeah because it's you can't deny it it's so so it speaks to your your (01:01:55):
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Daniel: thing about control and co-opting and there is an element of that i wouldn't (01:02:00):
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Daniel: say it's a hugely i wouldn't say it's tied hugely specifically to the christ (01:02:04):
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Daniel: operation but where it is it's important and that comes out in the book as well (01:02:09):
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Daniel: you'll see that in the book you'll see the accounts (01:02:13):
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Daniel: in the medieval literature, again, where these deaths are discovered at a distance. (01:02:15):
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Daniel: And you'll see some of the writers' commentary on it. (01:02:20):
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Daniel: And again, speaking to their ideas of why it happened and appeasing God and (01:02:22):
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Daniel: the Holy Spirit, et cetera, et cetera. (01:02:27):
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Jason: Yeah. You raise another interesting point, which I hadn't fully considered, which is, (01:02:29):
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Jason: you know i was just thinking about authorities trying to (01:02:34):
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Jason: shut down these narratives but you raise the point of co-option (01:02:37):
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Jason: and wrapping stories around it that (01:02:41):
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Jason: make it easier to understand or control and i think that's something (01:02:44):
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Jason: the church probably did a lot of i think that actually that's (01:02:47):
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Jason: something people do a lot of today when they're and here's (01:02:49):
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Jason: the most basic example when they're confronted by something paranormal or that (01:02:53):
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Jason: seems to it seems to break the frame a bit it they'll start wrapping union language (01:02:58):
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Jason: around it it's like oh well this is an archetypal collective unconscious and (01:03:03):
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Jason: they'll start wrapping that type of like basically psychologizing something away that's. (01:03:07):
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Daniel: A big one (01:03:12):
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Jason: Which allows things to exist kind of just sort of but not enough that it's really (01:03:13):
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Jason: threatening to anyone that's a really interesting point i think that union union (01:03:19):
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Jason: language is used to kind of corral some of these experiences to a level that (01:03:23):
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Jason: people are just maybe comfortable speaking of and and maybe not even that fascinating. (01:03:27):
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Daniel: Yeah i think that's a really interesting point and it's it's kind of allows it to exist in a safe way (01:03:32):
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Jason: And it's interesting and you know you know it's like in a gray zone where it's (01:03:38):
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Jason: real but not it's still kind of individually generated but but it's the realness (01:03:42):
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Jason: of it is more artistic in nature and kind of vague so it's not not so threatening (01:03:47):
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Jason: whereas in the quote-unquote real world whatever (01:03:53):
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Jason: that means when you have experiences like the ones you're talking about it's (01:03:56):
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Jason: like no that's not something that came off a therapist couch out of dream work (01:03:59):
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Jason: that's something that actually happened and absolutely people saw it and it (01:04:04):
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Jason: broke the frame of reality 100. (01:04:08):
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Daniel: I fully agree and even and again coming back to this point like even if the (01:04:11):
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Daniel: entire experience was wrapped in young in archetypes it happened to coincide (01:04:16):
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Daniel: with an external event okay so that's Speaking of Jung, that's the synchronicity right there. (01:04:21):
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Daniel: Even if we allow for that, let's allow for the psychologists to come in and (01:04:27):
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Daniel: paint the entirety of the paranormal with Jungian symbolism. (01:04:32):
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Daniel: Let's allow for that. You still need to explain to me why that the event coincides (01:04:37):
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Daniel: with something external and at a time when I not only had no expectation of (01:04:41):
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Daniel: that to occur, but often specified that I didn't expect it to occur. (01:04:47):
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Daniel: These are the kind of smaller details that are skipped over when these generalizations are made. (01:04:51):
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Daniel: It's an incredible book though. I will say, I don't know how to pronounce her (01:04:56):
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Daniel: name, but it's Aniela Jaffe. (01:05:00):
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Daniel: She worked with Carl Jung. She wrote a book called Apparitions and Precognition. (01:05:01):
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Daniel: I think it was in the 60s. It's a really great book. But you will see, (01:05:06):
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Daniel: she presents a lot of, it's a very interesting survey of Christ's apparitions (01:05:10):
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Daniel: and other types of accounts from Switzerland and some cross-cultural ones too, (01:05:13):
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Daniel: like Germany, for instance. (01:05:17):
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Daniel: But she will, exactly what you were just saying, she will say, (01:05:19):
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Daniel: she will speak about the ghost saying goodbye are turning (01:05:23):
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Daniel: up in the metaphorical language of the (01:05:26):
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Daniel: journey and presenting as if they're going on (01:05:29):
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Daniel: a journey and she will speak to you she will say these are archetypal like this (01:05:32):
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Daniel: speaks to ancient ideas about where the dead go and the extent to which they (01:05:37):
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Daniel: will be going on a journey but the and this is this is an address the problem (01:05:43):
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Daniel: is when you read this you say say, okay, that's fair enough. (01:05:48):
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Daniel: But this person didn't know that was a dead person. (01:05:51):
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Daniel: So why are they contextual appearing that way in their mind? That isn't addressed. (01:05:54):
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Daniel: We can talk about that for after death communications where you knew the person was dead. (01:05:59):
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Daniel: We can talk about that for mediumship accounts where you say, let me get in contact. (01:06:03):
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Daniel: But you cannot skip over that and apply these archetypes, et cetera. It doesn't work. (01:06:08):
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Daniel: It doesn't work. where the experience itself kind of ruthlessly doesn't allow (01:06:13):
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Daniel: for it. It's interesting. (01:06:18):
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Jason: That is interesting. Have you looked at... (01:06:19):
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Jason: These experiences occurring in different or extreme or extenuating circumstances? (01:06:23):
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Jason: For instance, the one I'm thinking of is during wartime, because I feel like (01:06:29):
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Jason: you hear about this type of thing occurring quite a lot with soldiers. (01:06:33):
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Daniel: So that is a very, like, if you look at, it's very common in war, (01:06:37):
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Daniel: which of course makes sense because more people are... (01:06:43):
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Jason: It's a lot of people dying. Absolutely. (01:06:46):
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Daniel: I mean, and we know that at least this, it seems to be the case that death and (01:06:47):
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Daniel: specifically violent death are most commonly tied to these encounters. (01:06:53):
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Daniel: So it would make sense that there will be a uptick during war. (01:06:57):
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Daniel: But there are like, I believe there's even, I believe there's a paper called (01:07:02):
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Daniel: the crisis operations of world war one or two. (01:07:05):
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Daniel: I'll have to remember, but yes, (01:07:09):
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Daniel: historically a lot of these visions happen during war. It's very common. (01:07:10):
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Daniel: And there are actually funny enough, a lot of auditory hallucinations. (01:07:14):
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Daniel: I use that word again, sparingly, related to these where the individual will (01:07:17):
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Daniel: hear, the mother will hear their son calling them for instance, (01:07:21):
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Daniel: and then get the phone call. (01:07:24):
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Daniel: And then I spoke about the one in Ulster, which was a full on operational experience, (01:07:26):
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Daniel: the mood, the blood, et cetera. It's very common. (01:07:30):
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Daniel: And what's interesting is that again, these accounts come out historically too. (01:07:35):
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Daniel: Like you'll You'll see in the book accounts tied to war from ancient Greece and Rome. (01:07:40):
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Daniel: You'll see even in the plays, even in the plays and literature of ancient Greece (01:07:44):
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Daniel: and Rome, you will see these crisis operations occurring specifically during a time of war. (01:07:51):
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Daniel: Or you will see Homer or the works ascribed to Homer. (01:07:56):
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Daniel: You'll see crisis operations in there specifically tied to war. (01:08:01):
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Daniel: And again, what's interesting about those old accounts is that it's not just (01:08:05):
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Daniel: the experience that's similar. (01:08:09):
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Daniel: The after effects are similar to the sense, the sense of (01:08:11):
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Daniel: There's an account related to the legendary brothers, Romulus and Remus, (01:08:16):
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Daniel: where I don't remember his position specifically, but a statesman, (01:08:21):
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Daniel: I believe Proclus Lycus, (01:08:26):
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Daniel: he learned about the death at a distance from somebody else who had the Christ separation. (01:08:27):
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Daniel: And it's specified that that experience, it actually helped the other soldiers grieve the death. (01:08:33):
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Daniel: So it's very interesting to me that even those (01:08:40):
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Daniel: specific after effects come out in those old (01:08:44):
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Daniel: accounts and it's not it's very common you'll see it a lot in the lives of (01:08:46):
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Daniel: the saints and not just the saints but monastics and (01:08:49):
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Daniel: just general individuals related to (01:08:53):
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Daniel: the church they will specifically it (01:08:55):
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Daniel: will be specifically noted that the the experience was shared with others and (01:08:59):
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Daniel: it inflamed them with zeal for instance you will see specific accounts in the (01:09:04):
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Daniel: book where the end of a group were inflamed with zeal having learned of the (01:09:07):
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Daniel: experience of the crisis apparition that the chosen individual had. (01:09:12):
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Daniel: So in that sense, the accounts tie together historically and in our own times (01:09:16):
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Daniel: too, which again speaks to the overstatement of the differences in the ghost over time. (01:09:22):
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Daniel: It's overstated. The similarities need to be honed in on more, (01:09:30):
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Daniel: in my opinion, because they're fascinating and they're persistent. (01:09:33):
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Jason: Yeah, that's also fascinating because it, I think, I think much like the death (01:09:37):
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Jason: experience, just as it is, suggests that we're a lot more similar than different. (01:09:44):
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Jason: And I think one of the reasons why people are so fascinated and will forever (01:09:51):
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Jason: be fascinated with the paranormal. (01:09:55):
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Jason: Particularly of this type is that we all are going to die unless unless the (01:09:58):
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Jason: transhumanists figure something out quick well we'll see we'll see about that (01:10:04):
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Jason: so sign me up but but but otherwise maybe we'll see when you. (01:10:08):
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Daniel: See what's coming after we'll see (01:10:15):
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Jason: Yeah one of my one of my fears is that all is is people will be up their consciousnesses (01:10:16):
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Jason: will be uploaded to the cloud and used to mine but then used to mine bitcoin (01:10:21):
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Jason: or run minecraft for something like that that's incredible yeah used as a minecraft (01:10:25):
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Jason: server but anyways the 2024 afterlife yeah yeah exactly wow. (01:10:30):
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Daniel: That's my next book (01:10:34):
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Jason: Very good you just get stuck on twitch forever (01:10:36):
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Jason: i forget what i was saying (01:10:39):
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Jason: it suggests that we're more common we (01:10:42):
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Jason: have more in common than not and (01:10:45):
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Jason: that is you know death will bring us all together and (01:10:49):
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Jason: everyone has anxiety about death you know no matter what it is that they believe (01:10:52):
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Jason: and some of my favorite episodes of this show are the ones about that touch (01:10:55):
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Jason: on death just because it's a topic that is very hard to put up a front around (01:11:00):
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Jason: it's hard to it definitely kind of, (01:11:07):
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Jason: deflates the ego and it's hard to since we know nobody knows anything about (01:11:10):
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Jason: it it's really hard to kind of like act like an expert in the face of it. (01:11:15):
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Jason: And so it provides for good conversations. (01:11:19):
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Jason: So one of the ones I had was with a woman who's a Anne-Marie Kruppel, (01:11:22):
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Jason: I think, a woman who's a death doula. (01:11:29):
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Jason: And she talked about sitting with people in that moment where they transition (01:11:31):
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Jason: and often the things that could occur in the room, like a bright light, (01:11:35):
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Jason: or that there would be paranormal, often paranormal experiences occurring. (01:11:40):
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Daniel: That's a very common observation amongst people attending the dying, absolutely. (01:11:45):
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Daniel: Hospice, carers, caregivers, it's very common. You'll see this across the literature. (01:11:49):
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Jason: It's hard not to be humbled and awed in a true sense, (01:11:54):
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Jason: not in a humble brag sense, but in a true sense confronting things like that, (01:11:58):
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Jason: particularly the universality of the experience, because it shows that we are (01:12:02):
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Jason: at the mercy of something bigger than us and that it's consistent. Yeah. (01:12:07):
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Daniel: And that can be depending the, you can receive that as either a very frightening (01:12:11):
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Daniel: thing or an incredibly comforting thing. (01:12:17):
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Daniel: Like the sense that, wow, there is this, there is this kind of ground level (01:12:19):
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Daniel: upon which I can orient myself and like have a sense, especially in our times, (01:12:24):
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Daniel: I suppose for some people that's very important. (01:12:29):
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Daniel: I mean, obviously religion plays that role in many lives, but in many other (01:12:32):
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Daniel: lives, that sense isn't there. (01:12:36):
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Daniel: And that's, what's interesting about these experiences is that they can actually (01:12:38):
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Daniel: impart that sense that's what's fascinating they can impart a lifelong sense (01:12:42):
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Daniel: of not just you have a con there is a context to my existence (01:12:45):
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Daniel: death has a meaning not only does (01:12:51):
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Daniel: it have a meaning but it's it's it's what these (01:12:54):
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Daniel: experiences impart is that not only does death (01:12:57):
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Daniel: have a meaning but it's actually being thought about by something else (01:13:00):
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Daniel: or someone else somewhere like these experiences don't (01:13:03):
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Daniel: just happen in a vacuum you if you take them at face value which these (01:13:06):
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Daniel: individuals often do you know the whoever came for like you were speaking about (01:13:09):
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Daniel: the the bad side encounters like whoever came for my deceased loved one or dying (01:13:15):
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Daniel: loved one like they obviously would have thought about that there so it gives (01:13:21):
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Daniel: them a sense of there is a context there is a plan if you will so in that sense (01:13:24):
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Daniel: I think the crisis operation and even reading about it can definitely be beneficial (01:13:30):
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Daniel: in that sense for some people, I would say. Definitely. (01:13:34):
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Jason: Yeah, I definitely take the comforting. And I choose. (01:13:36):
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Jason: I think it is important to consciously choose. I think it is a choice. (01:13:41):
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Jason: I take the comforting read of it. (01:13:45):
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Jason: And most of my best spiritual and occult advice, I don't get out of spiritual (01:13:48):
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Jason: and occult books. I get from just random places. (01:13:52):
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Jason: And one of the most important things I've ever read was in a (01:13:55):
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Jason: book by a stockbroker who said that at the end of the day the really the thing (01:13:57):
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Jason: that is most important for human beings is they need to you know the thing that (01:14:02):
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Jason: makes the biggest difference in people's lives is they need to decide whether (01:14:06):
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Jason: that whether they live in a friendly universe or not wow and i think that's true it's. (01:14:09):
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Daniel: One sorry go ahead (01:14:17):
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Jason: I i think that's true john lilly said something (01:14:18):
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Jason: similar and he said that these would he called these plus three the plus three (01:14:21):
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Jason: and negative three states and said they would influence all of your all of your (01:14:25):
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Jason: visions but wow you know i think that maybe over complicates it but just that (01:14:29):
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Jason: thing of you know is the universe does the universe care or not is the fundamental question it. (01:14:34):
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Daniel: Really is and i think that's an incredibly interesting point (01:14:40):
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Daniel: i mean if i can reference a tool song the (01:14:43):
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Daniel: universe is hostile so impersonal you (01:14:46):
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Daniel: know that's the line and that's what is it that's the real question and the (01:14:49):
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Daniel: reality is in and of itself you can come to that conclusion i have no problem (01:14:53):
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Daniel: with that but what do we really know that and certainly for these individuals (01:14:57):
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Daniel: the universe is anything but that it's it's quite the opposite in fact and (01:15:02):
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Daniel: as i state in the book i make a note of the fact that like we are shepherded into this world i mean (01:15:07):
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Daniel: i think one of the most unhelpful platitudes of our times is that we we are (01:15:14):
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Daniel: we come here alone and we die alone (01:15:19):
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Daniel: And why is that because that's there's really no evidence (01:15:22):
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Daniel: of that and the majority of the evidence actually suggests the (01:15:24):
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Daniel: opposite we are ushered into this world by highly complex extraordinary tightly (01:15:27):
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Daniel: regulated biological processes nursing cells very specifically timed the fetus (01:15:33):
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Daniel: everything is incredibly coordinated we're the result of that okay so we don't (01:15:39):
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Daniel: come to this world alone alone. (01:15:45):
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Daniel: And by no means do we exit this world alone as the deathbed vision literature very clearly shows. (01:15:46):
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Daniel: Of course, we can get into then debates of what is alone because let's assume (01:15:52):
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Daniel: they are hallucinations. (01:15:57):
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Daniel: Does that mean because they're hallucinations you're alone? (01:15:59):
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Daniel: Maybe, maybe not. Who knows? These are interesting conversations to be had, (01:16:03):
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Daniel: but I think that not only is it unhelpful to say that we come here alone and (01:16:07):
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Daniel: leave alone, but it's actually relatively baseless. (01:16:10):
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Jason: Do you think that there's a sense that in which people are actually more afraid (01:16:13):
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Jason: of the second option that they're not alone than they are that they're alone? (01:16:20):
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Jason: Because and historically speaking too (01:16:27):
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Jason: i mean it's kind of like yes the idea that you come into the world alone and (01:16:30):
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Jason: or you leave alone is depressing but it makes keeps you independent it means (01:16:35):
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Jason: you don't it's like i mean yeah you kind of see what i'm getting at. (01:16:43):
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Daniel: I really do yeah i really do my response to (01:16:47):
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Daniel: that would be that it it really is a case-by-case basis (01:16:51):
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Daniel: i mean you can have that sense whether you (01:16:54):
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Daniel: think you're alone or not you can receive the (01:16:57):
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Daniel: message of you know meaninglessness as a (01:17:01):
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Daniel: positive thing like a lot of people and maybe they're not (01:17:04):
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Daniel: actually receiving it that way maybe someone like because you you do speak to (01:17:07):
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Daniel: people who are kind of i don't know how to place say enthusiastically nihilistic (01:17:11):
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Daniel: we'll say but who am i just like they can come to that conclusion and kind of (01:17:17):
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Daniel: be at peace with the universe in that sense. (01:17:22):
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Daniel: But then, of course, you could get deeper and say, well, are they really at (01:17:25):
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Daniel: peace? Is it some sort of defense mechanism? (01:17:27):
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Daniel: Is it the worm at the core, as the authors of The Worm at the Core call it? (01:17:30):
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Daniel: This fear of death, this deep sense of I need to avoid even comprehending the (01:17:35):
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Daniel: reality of death in the moment I need to avoid. (01:17:41):
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Daniel: Like to the extent that like there (01:17:43):
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Daniel: are studies there are many studies don't showing that people will (01:17:46):
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Daniel: like name their children after the person (01:17:49):
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Daniel: who like was the the the the (01:17:52):
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Daniel: long still away from having died or something like this these are these are (01:17:55):
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Daniel: studies that are in the the worm at the core which is speak to the center which (01:17:59):
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Daniel: we void that so maybe can we even trust those conclusions who am I to say it's (01:18:03):
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Daniel: not for me today what people think and why they think it but it is interest (01:18:07):
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Daniel: in what you say, and I think it can go both ways. And I think that (01:18:10):
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Daniel: I think that the most important point would be that maybe the universe is hostile, (01:18:14):
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Daniel: but I see much evidence for it. I see it as the opposite. I love that. (01:18:20):
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Jason: That's a great phrase. Yeah. And in a way, I feel that, yeah, (01:18:25):
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Jason: that could unnerve people because it represents that we're going to be humbled at some point. (01:18:31):
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Daniel: Fascinating point. (01:18:35):
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Jason: Yeah. It suggests that we have to give up our individuality, (01:18:36):
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Jason: which people are quite... (01:18:41):
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Jason: And perhaps that we never had individuality at all, and we're just part... (01:18:44):
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Jason: That we are part of larger, awkward extended family units. (01:18:48):
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Daniel: That's really interesting, yeah. It's interesting. The fear that... Go ahead, sorry. (01:18:53):
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Jason: No, go ahead. (01:18:58):
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Daniel: Okay, it's very interesting what you say. The fear that you could pick it up (01:18:59):
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Daniel: as a negative, that we're all connected and we're... There's (01:19:03):
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Jason: A meaning to. (01:19:06):
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Daniel: Everything because of your own particular ego and sense of self and what constitutes (01:19:07):
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Daniel: your sense of self-esteem and self, et cetera. (01:19:12):
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Daniel: That's really interesting. And you do see that. You do see that. (01:19:16):
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Daniel: There's a pride to espousing nihilism, if you know what I mean. (01:19:20):
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Jason: Yeah, absolutely. And I think there is a pride to espousing nihilism. (01:19:25):
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Jason: And I think at an even deeper level though, Jacques Lacan, (01:19:30):
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Jason: the psychoanalyst, said something to the effect of you know men's men's greatest (01:19:34):
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Jason: fear and what they spend their entire life doing is trying to avoid being reabsorbed (01:19:38):
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Jason: by the mother in whatever symbolic guys she presents herself in (01:19:43):
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Jason: that person's life that doesn't necessarily mean their physical mother but that principle, (01:19:48):
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Jason: yeah and i think that that's probably true and there's a certain element of (01:19:52):
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Jason: i think having to relinquish yourself in the death experience that partakes of that maybe that's. (01:19:56):
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Daniel: That's really interesting and that that that comes out in the psychedelic experience (01:20:04):
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Daniel: too which you'll probably be able to speak to this like a lot of the time like (01:20:08):
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Daniel: it's those people that it is meant for it's those people that it isn't meant (01:20:13):
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Daniel: for because they're they're unwilling to they're unwilling to let go of that ego they're unwilling (01:20:16):
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Jason: That's the secret that's the secret to life yeah and the psychedelic experience (01:20:22):
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Jason: they hopefully they show people that who have that experience but letting go (01:20:27):
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Jason: is the just chill just let it be absolutely. (01:20:30):
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Daniel: They're unwilling to like seed this kind of (01:20:33):
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Daniel: how are they feel they have over reality based on their understanding of it, you know? (01:20:39):
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Daniel: And it's like, you've got that, what the psychedelic experience generally tells (01:20:43):
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Daniel: you is that you, there's something a little bigger going on here. (01:20:47):
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Jason: Yeah, I think so. And I also think that, you know, or my, I think a good 88 (01:20:51):
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Jason: chunk, just to pick a number, a good 80% of spiritual, (01:20:56):
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Jason: religious, psychic, and occult literature is a bunch of verbiage that was generated in a state (01:21:00):
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Jason: of anxiety to try and explain something that had happened to try to control (01:21:08):
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Jason: it, you know, to try to wrap a controlling frame of language around it. (01:21:12):
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Daniel: That's really interesting. (01:21:16):
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Jason: It can present itself as authoritative or showing how to repeat the experience. (01:21:17):
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Jason: But really, I think it's like a frantic, it's all frantic because the thing (01:21:22):
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Jason: about these experiences that people have to accept, I think, (01:21:26):
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Jason: is you're never going to understand them. (01:21:29):
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Jason: You can't. It's like that ultimately at the end of the day, the universe is mysterious. (01:21:32):
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Jason: That's my opinion, at least. (01:21:40):
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Daniel: No, that's fair enough. (01:21:42):
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Jason: But once you're okay with that, then it's like, this is amazing. It's like, this is... (01:21:44):
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Daniel: You're speaking to the extent to which this stuff that's even written in these (01:21:51):
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Daniel: occult books, et cetera, is generally it's like this, it's lip service. (01:21:54):
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Daniel: It's not necessarily even coming from a place that is genuinely accepting of what the universe is. (01:21:58):
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Daniel: It's kind of a fear of what it might be, or even a fear of death, you know what I mean? (01:22:07):
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Jason: Yeah, and I don't think that that's like... People write stuff like that to (01:22:10):
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Jason: be intentionally misleading. (01:22:15):
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Jason: I think often they write it to explain things to themselves and to try and come (01:22:17):
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Jason: to a conclusion about things. I've done that too. (01:22:21):
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Daniel: The universe is a, I mean, awe can be interpreted like awe, the word awe is, (01:22:25):
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Daniel: I mean, it's not, it's awe and fear and awe can be synonymous. (01:22:33):
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Daniel: It's not just good feelings, you know? I mean, when you, when you really think (01:22:36):
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Daniel: about what, you know, existence and this strange moment we find ourselves in (01:22:40):
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Daniel: and why is there something instead of nothing? (01:22:47):
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Daniel: And when you start digging into that, it can become unsettling. (01:22:49):
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Daniel: It can become unnerving. (01:22:54):
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Daniel: So you can understand why people would kind of avoid it a little bit, (01:22:55):
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Daniel: but they conflate that avoidment then with a conclusion as to the nature of things, you know? (01:22:59):
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Daniel: So that can be the issue. Yeah. (01:23:04):
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Jason: Very interesting. All of this also raises another question, right? (01:23:08):
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Jason: Almost automatically, which is the problem of evil. And the reason I say that is because, you, (01:23:13):
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Jason: The second you see some type of what appears to be confirmation of higher intelligence, (01:23:21):
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Jason: often, certainly in my case, the next question is, well, explain all of this (01:23:25):
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Jason: horrible, all these horrible things that happen on this planet then. (01:23:30):
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Jason: So example, you know, I had a very striking and unmistakable paranormal experience once. (01:23:34):
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Jason: I won't repeat it, but just because it's personal, but, but, (01:23:41):
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Jason: you know, it was a physical manifestation and my immediate instinctual reaction (01:23:44):
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Jason: was just total awe and happiness and just joy that I saw this. (01:23:48):
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Jason: And then it was followed immediately right on that with anger. (01:23:54):
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Jason: It was just like, like, right. It's just like that. it was like wow god's real (01:23:59):
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Jason: hey you motherfucker like you've got like like what what the hell why do children have. (01:24:04):
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Daniel: Bone cancer basically (01:24:11):
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Jason: Right right right right yeah exactly you know you look around at some of the (01:24:13):
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Jason: wars happening right now and wars that happen in the name of religion you know (01:24:16):
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Jason: and it's like you know i'm not necessarily going to blame god for the effects (01:24:20):
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Jason: of religion i think that's not fair but you kind of get where i'm going there (01:24:24):
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Jason: right i really do yeah I really do. (01:24:29):
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Daniel: And like, it's very challenging sometimes to speak in this area without (01:24:32):
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Daniel: sounding mildly callous because the, okay, so let's, obviously you can come (01:24:38):
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Daniel: up from many different angles. (01:24:47):
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Daniel: Like if you come at it from the angle of the near death literature, (01:24:47):
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Daniel: for instance, the near-death literature is very (01:24:51):
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Daniel: very clear that suffering is (01:24:54):
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Daniel: it's not only inevitable but it's (01:24:58):
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Daniel: often shown it's often specifically chosen (01:25:01):
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Daniel: and the the the (01:25:05):
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Daniel: benefit the the the benefits of (01:25:08):
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Daniel: it like let me let me give an example let me be more specific like (01:25:11):
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Daniel: this is okay so you could (01:25:14):
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Daniel: if you were looking at it from a cosmic perspective where there (01:25:17):
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Daniel: is some sort of grand master plan and everything is (01:25:20):
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Daniel: thought out and i mean we talked about (01:25:24):
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Daniel: bone cancer and children well something very (01:25:27):
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Daniel: commonly that occurs around the dying individual is that the group attending (01:25:30):
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Daniel: to them they become they become extraordinarily more empathetic as human beings (01:25:36):
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Daniel: not just in the moment but for the rest of their lives their connections to (01:25:42):
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Daniel: each other become stronger and more powerful. (01:25:47):
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Daniel: They share emotional connections with each other that are (01:25:50):
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Daniel: You know improved better different and they (01:25:55):
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Daniel: become better people and therefore they kind (01:25:59):
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Daniel: of propagate that from that moment on does (01:26:02):
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Daniel: that mean it's good that the child died of course not the (01:26:06):
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Daniel: point is that who am i just the point is (01:26:10):
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Daniel: who am i to say that the plan wasn't for this (01:26:13):
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Daniel: to occur in that moment now that individual child (01:26:16):
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Daniel: or it may not even be a child it could be an individual whatever ever a man (01:26:19):
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Daniel: or woman is it who am i to say that wasn't (01:26:22):
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Daniel: their fate who am i to say they didn't necessarily now (01:26:25):
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Daniel: i we can get crazy obviously and say choose that because (01:26:28):
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Daniel: there are some horrible things to happen to people as we know that's where (01:26:31):
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Daniel: i say it gets tough to talk about but in some but i'm just saying me personally (01:26:34):
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Daniel: i'm not willing to say i know how the universe works i'm not willing to say (01:26:38):
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Daniel: that there wasn't something at play here where now there's gonna be a knock-on (01:26:43):
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Daniel: effect that actually benefits people in a way that we never even imagined possible right well (01:26:48):
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Jason: I think that's one of those core decisions that we need to just we just need (01:26:53):
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Jason: to make as people i think that people have the freedom should you know they (01:26:56):
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Jason: have the right to be able to say it happened for a reason, (01:27:00):
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Jason: and i think that whether things happen for a reason or not maybe you know maybe (01:27:04):
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Jason: they don't but i do know that believing that things happen for a reason leads (01:27:09):
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Jason: to a whole lot less craziness, (01:27:16):
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Jason: it's very comforting for people and i don't think that it's healthy to live (01:27:20):
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Jason: i don't think that it's healthy to live in a random chaotic meaningless hp lovecraft universe. (01:27:26):
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Daniel: You know i agree or i don't Either (01:27:31):
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Jason: Meaningless or actively hostile. But I think that just practically speaking, (01:27:34):
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Jason: day to day, believing that things happen for a reason and that knowing also (01:27:41):
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Jason: knowing from personal experience that when you're going through seemingly ridiculous, (01:27:47):
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Jason: confusing and unjust, (01:27:53):
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Jason: unjust things as we do. (01:27:56):
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Jason: Things that weren't part of the plan, things that seem like violations, (01:27:57):
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Jason: it can be comforting to, as unfortunately we experience throughout life, (01:28:02):
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Jason: and so sometimes we don't have a choice about that, it can be comforting to say, well, it doesn't, (01:28:06):
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Jason: I might not see it now, but this will make sense in the future. (01:28:13):
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Jason: Something good will come out of this. Just that belief alone can be the difference (01:28:16):
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Jason: between life and death for some people. (01:28:21):
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Daniel: It literally can. And that's a great point. It literally can be the difference (01:28:23):
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Daniel: between life and death. That's why it's so important. (01:28:26):
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Daniel: And I mean, we could even say, again, we can speak to the kind of unhealthiness (01:28:28):
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Daniel: of dichotomies and say, maybe some things are meant to happen and others aren't. (01:28:34):
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Daniel: Maybe it's a level of degrees. (01:28:39):
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Daniel: Some things were meant to happen, some things weren't i think even that perspective (01:28:41):
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Daniel: can be helpful it can kind of because like the religious argument is that well (01:28:45):
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Daniel: bad things happen because we have free will and the gift of free will it means (01:28:51):
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Daniel: inevitably bad things will happen so you're saying that it's helpful to believe (01:28:55):
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Daniel: that things happen for a reason well let's speak again to the near-death literature because (01:29:00):
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Daniel: even reading that one of (01:29:06):
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Daniel: the really common things that comes out of the near the literature and it's (01:29:08):
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Daniel: very common is and it's (01:29:11):
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Daniel: often word for word it's often everything is exactly (01:29:14):
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Daniel: the way it's meant to be okay so people will have the experience and they will (01:29:17):
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Daniel: have this realization in this sense that oh i see okay this is why i suffered (01:29:22):
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Daniel: this is why that happened and not only that but everything even even now in (01:29:27):
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Daniel: this chaos that's going on it's it's playing out exactly how it's meant to play out. (01:29:33):
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Daniel: Am I saying that's the nature of the universe? No, I'm saying that is what comes out during the NDE. (01:29:37):
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Daniel: And it can also come out for readers of that literature as well, (01:29:42):
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Daniel: which is very interesting. (01:29:45):
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Daniel: And I'll say that when you become very familiar with that literature, (01:29:47):
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Daniel: it actually can be quite comforting and it's very interesting. (01:29:50):
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Jason: Oh, interesting. Yeah. That is interesting. (01:29:52):
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Jason: And that is very, just hearing that is very reassuring because, (01:29:56):
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Jason: you know, it's, God forbid you start looking at the literature and you start (01:29:59):
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Jason: talking about demons dragging people off to the ninth. (01:30:04):
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Daniel: It does happen. It does happen. (01:30:07):
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Jason: Christopher Hitchens shows up and just explains to you that that's it. (01:30:09):
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Jason: There will be nothing else after this. (01:30:13):
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Jason: You have to listen to Christopher Hitchens forever. (01:30:16):
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Daniel: Christopher Hitchens turns up with the pearly gates. No, thanks. (01:30:19):
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Jason: Right, right, right. I mean, I love Christopher Hitchens, but you know. yeah for. (01:30:22):
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Daniel: Sure his brother is a pretty wild as well (01:30:26):
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Jason: Yeah yeah i don't know as much about his brother but uh yeah yeah more political (01:30:28):
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Jason: he's christian peter hitchens or whatever yeah peter yeah he's a character. (01:30:33):
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Daniel: He's very very he would be the kind of guy who would dismiss (01:30:38):
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Jason: You know anything remotely. (01:30:43):
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Daniel: Non-ordinary if you will (01:30:45):
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Jason: You know so i gather you're in the uk or from the uk i. (01:30:47):
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Daniel: Am from ireland yes from ireland but not the uk but ireland yes (01:30:50):
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Jason: I i apologize then it's okay i apologize that's offense offense taken it's okay (01:30:53):
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Jason: serious faux pas you're from ireland okay i am and well okay well that kind (01:30:59):
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Jason: of that kind of invalidates what i'm going to say because i feel that you. (01:31:06):
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Daniel: Hate our people (01:31:10):
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Jason: No no quite the opposite i hate (01:31:11):
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Jason: the english i specifically hate the english the (01:31:14):
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Jason: thing one of the things about england is you know (01:31:17):
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Jason: a lot of occult stuff comes out of england but it's a secular it's a secular country (01:31:20):
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Jason: and it's that is totally different from (01:31:24):
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Jason: america which is religious to the core and in the sense and i don't necessarily (01:31:27):
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Jason: mean in the sense that people are all church going but in the sense that like (01:31:33):
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Jason: people believe in angels people believe in near-death experiences like that (01:31:36):
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Jason: like just common folk belief in the supernatural is very common. (01:31:41):
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Jason: So I was going to ask it, but I feel like Ireland is pretty religious too. (01:31:46):
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Jason: So I'm curious about, about that context, you know, looking at these things in a Catholic context. (01:31:50):
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Daniel: Well, (01:31:58):
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Daniel: Like for me personally, I actually am not religious, but I was brought up in (01:32:00):
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Daniel: a highly religious environment, especially growing up in school in Ireland, (01:32:05):
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Daniel: you know, church, choirs, everything. (01:32:10):
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Daniel: I was a member of the choir, the prayers, everything, you name it. (01:32:12):
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Daniel: But I can't really speak too much to how these experiences relate to the church in Ireland. (01:32:17):
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Daniel: But I can say that they're, I would say this, I would say that they're particularly (01:32:25):
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Daniel: common in the lives of the Irish saints, which is interesting. (01:32:30):
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Daniel: And actually extrasensory experiences or rather experiences that are entirely (01:32:35):
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Daniel: analogous to extrasensory experiences are very common in the Irish hagiographical (01:32:40):
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Daniel: literature and something that I find very interesting. (01:32:46):
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Daniel: Interesting and like ireland even in (01:32:48):
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Daniel: more recent times in the last 100 years 200 years we do have a history of this (01:32:52):
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Daniel: and of these encounters as a known entity the here they're called the fetch (01:32:56):
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Daniel: or the wraith okay now you've probably heard the word right before i'm not sure if fetch fetches like i (01:33:03):
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Jason: Have heard fetch yeah you have. (01:33:09):
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Daniel: Okay yeah one interesting the fetch is the fetch can reference crisis operation (01:33:10):
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Daniel: but it can also reference a general operation of an individual a living operation (01:33:15):
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Daniel: or a dead operation and that's actually an interesting distinction because (01:33:21):
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Daniel: Just to quickly go on a sidetrack here, if you look at the work of Professor (01:33:26):
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Daniel: Hornell Hart in the 60s, he made the very interesting point that apparitions of the living, i.e. (01:33:30):
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Daniel: Apparitions of individuals during out-of-body experiences, spontaneous projections (01:33:38):
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Daniel: of different sorts, some sort of somnambulism or sleeping-related extrusion of the soul, (01:33:43):
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Daniel: If you want, they're indistinguishable from those of the dead. (01:33:51):
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Daniel: And he made the point that that's very important. It's very important that the (01:33:54):
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Daniel: apparitions of the living are indistinguishable from the apparitions of the (01:33:57):
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Daniel: dead, because it suggests (01:34:00):
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Daniel: that the consistency between the two suggests that we can for say, (01:34:04):
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Daniel: maybe therefore the apparitions of the dead are actually evidence of survival. (01:34:07):
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Daniel: That's kind of a sidetrack, but in terms of the Irish saints, (01:34:13):
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Daniel: again, yes, you will find many accounts in the lives of the Irish saints in the book. (01:34:18):
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Daniel: And I've written a second book, which will be published in next summer, (01:34:22):
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Daniel: which deals with a multitude of extrasensory experiences from this cross-cultural (01:34:27):
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Daniel: and historical context, and specifically focusing in on experiences that are (01:34:33):
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Daniel: Lester kind of known and kind of written about. (01:34:37):
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Daniel: And you will again see a very particularly high representation among the Irish saints. (01:34:40):
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Daniel: Now, that could be an issue of sampling. I may have perused that literature (01:34:44):
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Daniel: a little bit more, but I get the sense that's not true. (01:34:49):
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Daniel: I get the sense that's not true. We'll see how that plays out. (01:34:52):
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Daniel: And that's the kind of thing that I want people to work on. (01:34:54):
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Daniel: Like when I, at the end of this book, I like one of my wishes is that like this, (01:34:58):
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Daniel: I'm a bit of a jack of all trades, master of none when it comes to this writing stuff, (01:35:05):
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Daniel: because by no means am I an expert in any of these areas, but I'm trying to carefully, (01:35:10):
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Daniel: And respectfully skirt these subjects, give what I can give. (01:35:15):
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Daniel: And then I really want, what I would love is for other people to kind of move (01:35:20):
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Daniel: on that and do extra work and make different distinctions and say, well, (01:35:24):
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Daniel: was this account of a crisis I've written specifically ascribed by the hagiographer (01:35:28):
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Daniel: or was it a known historical account, for instance? (01:35:34):
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Jason: Yeah, that's what a database type approach would be so interesting. (01:35:37):
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Jason: Absolutely. And there is a- Or a wiki or something like that even. I agree. (01:35:40):
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Daniel: And have you spoken to Gregory Shushan, Dr. Gregory Shushan? (01:35:44):
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Jason: I haven't, no. (01:35:48):
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Daniel: He writes on cross-cultural near-death experiences. (01:35:49):
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Jason: I'll write it down. (01:35:52):
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Daniel: To my knowledge, he's working on just such a database related to cross-cultural (01:35:53):
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Daniel: near-death experiences. (01:35:59):
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Daniel: So that could be something that you'll be interested in, yeah, for sure. (01:36:00):
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Jason: That's great. Well, one of the reasons I ask about Ireland is because one of (01:36:03):
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Jason: the things I've been thinking about a lot is the power of place and the local (01:36:07):
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Jason: belief in shaping paranormal experiences. (01:36:12):
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Jason: Okay. And I don't necessarily mean in a culturally relative sense. (01:36:15):
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Jason: I mean, in the sense that there are just are places where for lack of just for (01:36:18):
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Jason: lack of a better way of putting it, the veil is thin. (01:36:25):
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Daniel: Well, yeah. (01:36:27):
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Jason: Or instance, you know, Kathmandu is very much like that, but I live fairly close (01:36:28):
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Jason: to new Orleans now and I'm there a lot. (01:36:33):
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Jason: And it's fascinating going there where it's a culture where literally it's not (01:36:35):
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Jason: just that everyone believes in the supernatural, it's that it's commonplace. (01:36:43):
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Jason: It's just like, oh yeah, and it's just like commonplace accepted that experiences (01:36:47):
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Jason: like, you know, like the stuff that we're talking about would be completely unremarkable. (01:36:51):
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Jason: Or, you know, it's like I've been in cabs where actually now that I'm thinking I was in an Uber. (01:36:57):
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Jason: See I even I completely forgot about this till now I was in an Uber and we were (01:37:02):
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Jason: this we were it was unprompted we were going to like a head shop and the Uber (01:37:07):
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Jason: driver we went into an alley and the Uber driver unprompted, (01:37:13):
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Jason: told a story about, (01:37:17):
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Jason: His brother was stabbed and killed, but then he saw him in that alley at that exact moment. (01:37:20):
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Daniel: Wow. (01:37:26):
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Jason: Or he saw it happen, but it was, it was a crisis apparition to use your, (01:37:27):
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Jason: your terms. So there you go. (01:37:31):
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Jason: Like somebody just like, like came out of that and came out unprompted. (01:37:33):
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Daniel: Off the cuff. (01:37:37):
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Jason: And I think that I talked to, I don't know if you know, John Michael Greer. (01:37:38):
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Jason: He's a, he's a great writer about magic, golden dawn magic. And he's a Druid. (01:37:41):
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Daniel: I don't. (01:37:46):
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Jason: Great writer. But he talks about this and he says that the missing kind of the (01:37:47):
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Jason: missing piece in the Western magical tradition is the sense of the importance of location. (01:37:52):
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Jason: And I think that that is totally true. (01:37:57):
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Jason: And I think part of it has to do with geography and part of it just has to do (01:38:00):
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Jason: with the and what people who live there believe. (01:38:04):
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Jason: Believe or another example is Iceland where you know you you may or may not (01:38:06):
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Jason: know people widely believe in fairies to the point where if they're building (01:38:10):
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Jason: a road and somebody dreams that an elf lives there where they're building the (01:38:14):
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Jason: road they will stop building the road it's. (01:38:18):
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Daniel: Like yeah so it was very interesting (01:38:21):
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Jason: Okay okay yeah okay so so. (01:38:23):
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Daniel: Half of the newspapers as well apologies for coming across but that would be in the news (01:38:27):
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Jason: Interesting interesting okay okay 50 years ago ago. (01:38:30):
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Daniel: 40 years ago, 30 years ago, you would have caves where trees will be, (01:38:34):
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Daniel: the road will be built specifically around the tree because the fairies, (01:38:38):
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Daniel: they live there, you know? (01:38:42):
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Daniel: And the thin veil as you spoke to, there are certain places that you don't. (01:38:43):
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Daniel: And when I grew up, even me, when I was growing up, like the fairies were spoken (01:38:48):
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Daniel: about as a very serious thing. (01:38:52):
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Daniel: It wasn't like a fun night, bedtime story, you know, it was a very- What did (01:38:55):
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Daniel: people say? Well, my grandmother would tell us many different stories about (01:38:59):
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Daniel: the fairies, and she even had (01:39:05):
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Daniel: She spoke about specific experiences with encountering fairies, (01:39:07):
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Daniel: and she believed that fairies lived in her specific back garden, (01:39:11):
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Daniel: for instance, but not to get into too much specific detail, but just the belief was there. (01:39:15):
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Daniel: And it's not so strong now, but there is that lingering respect. (01:39:20):
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Daniel: It's interesting. There's that kind of lingering, almost ancestral respect for the concept. (01:39:26):
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Daniel: And even if that is just representative of the other, it may not necessarily (01:39:33):
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Daniel: be fairies, but that speaks to this sense of, okay, there is, I'm, who am I? (01:39:37):
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Daniel: Do I really inhabit this land so stridently? You know, do I, am I here? (01:39:44):
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Daniel: Do I have all the say and I can do what I want? Not necessarily. (01:39:50):
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Daniel: There could be other forces at play in this strange universe we find ourselves in. (01:39:54):
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Daniel: And I think something like the fairy can speak to that sense, (01:39:58):
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Daniel: even if you don't believe even the fairy yeah so (01:40:01):
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Jason: Yeah i mean also yeah i (01:40:03):
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Jason: really recommend there's a it's it's even on youtube there's a documentary i (01:40:07):
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Jason: think it's just called magic and mystery in iceland or something like that it (01:40:10):
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Jason: was made in the 80s where they're just interviewing they're interviewing all (01:40:13):
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Jason: these people just random people on the street like they go and talk to a mailman (01:40:17):
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Jason: and he says oh yeah this is where i lost my virginity when i was 15 a fairy (01:40:21):
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Jason: came out of this rock pulled me into the granite, (01:40:25):
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Jason: into the world or like they'll be talking to like (01:40:28):
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Jason: a five-year-old girl who says goes up to a rock and says this is (01:40:31):
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Jason: where the fairy comes out with a spiral spiral cake and they give her okay and (01:40:34):
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Jason: just like they interview people like school teachers like across like business (01:40:39):
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Jason: people across the entire society and they're all relating this crazy shit that (01:40:44):
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Jason: sounds like alien abduction experiences i. (01:40:49):
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Daniel: Was i was going to (01:40:51):
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Jason: Say it's you know the work. (01:40:52):
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Daniel: Of jacques valet etc (01:40:54):
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Jason: Absolutely Absolutely, right? And there are some places that are like that and (01:40:55):
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Jason: there are some cultures that are like that. (01:41:00):
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Daniel: It speaks to your point about place and those particular places and cultures (01:41:03):
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Daniel: and is true of Iceland specifically. (01:41:07):
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Daniel: And what's interesting about Iceland is that like their folklore has barely (01:41:08):
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Daniel: been tapped. I believe only about 10% of Iceland's folklore has been translated. (01:41:12):
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Daniel: Oh, it's a huge, maybe one of the least. (01:41:16):
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Jason: Really? (01:41:19):
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Daniel: Yeah, really. There's so much to be done there. There's so much to be discovered. (01:41:20):
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Daniel: And yeah, there are actually a number of Icelandic accounts in the book as well. (01:41:24):
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Jason: Have you been there ever? (01:41:28):
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Daniel: I've never been, but it's pretty (01:41:30):
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Jason: Close to me. you gotta go you should go it's awesome it's amazing (01:41:31):
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Jason: you've been really yeah i have i have it's it's i went during the during the (01:41:34):
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Jason: 2008 economic collapse it would be it was really cheap to go and it's just phenomenal (01:41:40):
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Jason: it's like literally going to another dimension it's people are so nice there (01:41:46):
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Jason: it's got 100 literacy rate people are really chill, (01:41:50):
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Jason: the only thing about like the the nature is breathtaking prehistoric you know (01:41:53):
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Jason: there's wild horses there that are a different breed of horse. (01:42:01):
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Jason: They're like a prehistoric breed. (01:42:03):
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Daniel: Oh, I actually didn't know that. (01:42:05):
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Jason: It's incredible. And they have this thing by the airport called the Blue Lagoon, (01:42:06):
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Jason: which is this gigantic open air silica hot springs. (01:42:11):
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Jason: It just glows blue from the silica that people rent hotel rooms next to. (01:42:14):
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Jason: And it's just huge luxury outdoor hot springs. It's phenomenal. (01:42:21):
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Jason: It's one of my favorite places ever. And it's a truly magical, (01:42:25):
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Jason: magical, truly magical spot. It's fascinating. (01:42:28):
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Daniel: Yeah, it speaks to your point about like the importance of place and not in (01:42:32):
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Daniel: a cultural sense because the reality is (01:42:38):
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Daniel: and you i'm sure you know this from like set and (01:42:42):
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Daniel: setting is important when it comes to the psychedelic now i (01:42:45):
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Daniel: mean surely it's important as well when (01:42:48):
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Daniel: it comes to any other type of non-owner experience (01:42:51):
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Daniel: i mean obviously i mean here's actually okay so this (01:42:54):
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Daniel: is something that's interesting because very that kind (01:42:58):
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Daniel: of environment that you're speaking about is very conducive to (01:43:01):
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Daniel: those type of experiences okay and that i (01:43:04):
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Daniel: think that's speaks directly to your point and you'll see it across literature (01:43:08):
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Daniel: too you'll see references to the reason that (01:43:11):
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Daniel: the kalahari bush man had so much extraordinary psychic (01:43:14):
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Daniel: attunedness is because of the environment it's because of the quietness of the (01:43:17):
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Daniel: mind and it's a lot of the time you'll see that reflected in the west where (01:43:21):
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Daniel: this psychic experience occurred between me and this individual specifically (01:43:24):
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Daniel: when i was distracted or when i was driving my car etc etc and what's interesting (01:43:28):
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Daniel: is it comes out in the stories and the tales too you, (01:43:34):
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Daniel: in the lives of the saints, for instance, many of these crisis apparitions specifically (01:43:37):
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Daniel: occur during meditation. (01:43:40):
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Daniel: It's very interesting to know that, or fasting for instance. (01:43:43):
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Daniel: And fasting, yeah, fasting is a pre-Christian tradition, by the way, (01:43:46):
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Daniel: as I'm sure you know. So it's interesting that that's even in there. (01:43:50):
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Daniel: So it speaks to your point about place. And I think that Iceland is a great example of that. (01:43:53):
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Daniel: And to an extent, Ireland is too, certainly on the West Coast and certainly (01:43:57):
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Daniel: outside of the main city where I live, Dublin, which which is a bit too noisy, (01:44:00):
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Daniel: but thankfully I live on a very quiet suburb, so it's okay. (01:44:04):
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Jason: That's good. Yeah. It's interesting. It's interesting trying to piece together (01:44:07):
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Jason: a bit of a world model based on what you're saying. (01:44:14):
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Jason: And I mentioned cultural relativism and how it's very tempting to say that, (01:44:18):
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Jason: you know, these people, people's internal religious experiences are culturally determined. (01:44:24):
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Jason: And I don't think that that's true because we're talking (01:44:29):
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Jason: about transcendent experiences that are cross-cultural and (01:44:32):
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Jason: cross-historical however i'm also saying that people's belief seems to influence (01:44:36):
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Jason: it but not in the not in that mental way i think that a better way to look at (01:44:42):
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Jason: it is people's belief allows them to take down certain veils or put them up yeah. (01:44:48):
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Daniel: Interpret in a certain way and yeah actualize in a particular manner (01:44:55):
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Jason: And if you live in a place where everyone's taken down a veil like new orleans (01:45:00):
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Jason: it has a it has a effect of something making bigger something bigger than the sum of its parts very. (01:45:04):
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Daniel: True very interesting i mean so would have this yeah would have a more (01:45:12):
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Jason: Much more. (01:45:15):
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Daniel: Cultural kind of a culturally accepted kind of sense like there was a particular (01:45:16):
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Daniel: point i wanted to make there well i forgot it now (01:45:23):
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Daniel: Yeah. So it's interesting because if you look at like the near death experience (01:45:26):
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Daniel: and even to some extent Christ that person, like one of, again, (01:45:31):
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Daniel: one of the things, the things that comes out is that it was ineffable. (01:45:34):
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Daniel: Okay. Like, and that word specifically comes through very common. (01:45:38):
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Daniel: Okay. So what, what I experienced over there, the language that I'm now using (01:45:42):
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Daniel: to describe it, I'm aware that it's not enough. (01:45:47):
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Daniel: Like, it's not just that it's not enough. I know it's not enough. (01:45:50):
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Daniel: But I'm going to couch what I say in that before I even communicate this to (01:45:52):
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Daniel: you. That's very common. (01:45:59):
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Daniel: So because the experiences that the individual undergoes in this other world, (01:46:00):
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Daniel: they're so ineffable that this comes back to your point. (01:46:07):
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Daniel: They have to use the culture and (01:46:10):
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Daniel: we're not dressing to describe it like there's almost no other way to (01:46:13):
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Daniel: describe it because there are no words I mean (01:46:17):
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Daniel: just even if you want to take some more basic examples like (01:46:19):
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Daniel: commonly during the near-death experience people say I've saw (01:46:22):
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Daniel: I've never seen this color before that's a color I've literally never (01:46:25):
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Daniel: seen before or that's a sound I've never heard before this is this light is (01:46:28):
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Daniel: acting in a way I've never experienced it so clearly by definition it's gonna (01:46:33):
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Daniel: be hard to even use day-to-day language to describe those things so invariably (01:46:37):
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Daniel: you will use the the the most readily available language (01:46:42):
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Daniel: Such as religious language, such as a being of light might become Jesus. (01:46:48):
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Daniel: And to the religious people out there, maybe it was Jesus, I don't know. (01:46:53):
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Daniel: But the point is that in many cases, for instance, the being of light will say (01:46:56):
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Daniel: very specifically, and being of light, just to be clear, is one of the most (01:47:01):
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Daniel: commonly encountered entities during the near-death experience. (01:47:04):
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Daniel: And there will be many accounts where the other, i.e. the denizens of the world (01:47:08):
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Daniel: or the world itself, They specifically communicate to you, we're appearing in (01:47:14):
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Daniel: this way for this reason, so that you feel comfortable. It's very interesting (01:47:17):
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Daniel: how commonly that comes out. (01:47:22):
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Daniel: So it just speaks to your point. (01:47:24):
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Jason: Which part of the Bible is it? I think it's Paul, but I can't remember. (01:47:25):
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Jason: He says, the devil himself will appear to you as an angel of light. (01:47:31):
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Daniel: Oh, well, yeah, I don't remember exactly the reference, but I know the reference. It's so interesting. (01:47:35):
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Jason: Yeah, I've thought about that before in similar contexts. (01:47:40):
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Daniel: It's so true. And you will see that in the book as well at some points. (01:47:44):
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Daniel: And in another book that I'm working on at the moment, you'll see that too. (01:47:48):
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Daniel: You'll see that, for instance, one of the subjects, and not to go too off track, (01:47:51):
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Daniel: but a quick reference, one of the subjects I deal with there is what you were (01:47:56):
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Daniel: referencing earlier, which was, (01:47:59):
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Daniel: I knew someone was going to telephone me, for instance, but it's related to, (01:48:00):
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Daniel: I knew someone was coming. I knew a visitor was coming. (01:48:05):
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Daniel: I had the sense, the intuition, and then they arrived. (01:48:08):
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Daniel: And what's interesting is that these accounts are also very common in the lives (01:48:12):
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Daniel: of the saints too, but you will see in the modern accounts, for instance, (01:48:16):
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Daniel: Gillian Bennett, an author who wrote a book about supernatural, (01:48:21):
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Daniel: about a survey of supernatural experiences, I believe in Birmingham and Liverpool in England. (01:48:25):
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Daniel: Her experience, they don't say that my friend was arriving, or I knew she was (01:48:31):
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Daniel: going to come, so I made cookies and she arrived. (01:48:37):
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Daniel: So it was correct. They didn't ascribe that to anything, but you will see that (01:48:41):
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Daniel: those accounts are specifically ascribed to the Holy Spirit, (01:48:44):
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Daniel: for instance, among the Irish saints or the Virgin Mary, for instance. (01:48:47):
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Daniel: So again, it's the book ending again. The experience is fundamentally similar, (01:48:50):
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Daniel: but it's the book ending. (01:48:54):
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Daniel: And it speaks to your point about cultural conditioning and, you know, (01:48:56):
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Daniel: the primacy of the actual fundamental experience itself it's an interesting (01:49:00):
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Daniel: contrast and it's ever present and always readily in ready to be misinterpreted (01:49:02):
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Daniel: that's a conversation that always needs to be kind of had i (01:49:08):
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Jason: Think very interesting well this has been an awesome conversation we're at the (01:49:11):
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Jason: two hour mark here so draw to a close but this was great i i learned a lot i (01:49:14):
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Jason: learned a lot tell people where they can find out more about you and get your book. (01:49:20):
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Daniel: Absolutely you can get my book Look at basically all good booksellers. (01:49:25):
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Daniel: You can get it at amazon.co.uk or .com. (01:49:30):
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Daniel: It's releasing December 3rd, Apparitions and Visions at the Moment of Death. (01:49:33):
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Daniel: It's cross-cultural and historical compendium of crisis apparitions. (01:49:37):
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Daniel: And you can find me on Twitter at near death. (01:49:41):
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Daniel: Sorry, at near underscore death underscore FE. (01:49:46):
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Daniel: You will find a lot. I constantly post very short form cross-cultural accounts (01:49:49):
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Daniel: of extrasensory experiences. (01:49:55):
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Daniel: So maybe you can find me there and find something interesting. Who knows? (01:49:57):
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Jason: Sounds good. All right. Well, thank you again. (01:50:00):
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Daniel: I really appreciate the invite, Jason. (01:50:02):
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Jason: Thank you very much. It was great. All right. Great luck with the book too. (01:50:03):
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Daniel: Take care. Much appreciated. Thank you. Bye-bye. (01:50:06):
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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}Ep. 219: CRISIS APPARITIONS and Near-Death Experiences With Daniel Burke

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Ep. 219: CRISIS APPARITIONS and Near-Death Experiences With Daniel Burke

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