Ep. 221: Richard Kaczynski & Maevius Lynn on the Magick of Thelema

Episode Transcript
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Speaker2: Very good well let's just get started why don't you thank you by the way for (05:09):
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Speaker2: both doing the podcast together is this the first time you've been on a show together (05:13):
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Speaker0: Yeah that's correct. (05:17):
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Speaker1: Yeah we've each done separate interviews but we've never done one together so (05:19):
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Speaker1: we thought this could be fun yeah (05:24):
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Speaker2: All right well why don't we just start off telling the audience a little bit (05:26):
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Speaker2: about who you both are your background of course i have my my copy of portaraba (05:30):
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Speaker2: right here an excellent book I've been a fan of that book since it came out. (05:34):
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Speaker2: But yeah, please introduce yourselves to the audience. (05:40):
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Speaker0: Go ahead, Richard. (05:44):
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Speaker1: Okay. Well, my name is Richard Kaczynski. As Jason mentioned, (05:45):
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Speaker1: I am the author of Prudorabo, The Life of Alistair Crowley, and various other (05:49):
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Speaker1: books in the Western esoteric tradition, including books like Forgotten Templars, (05:53):
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Speaker1: The Untold Origins of Ardo Templar Variantis, (05:58):
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Speaker1: The Wiser Concise Guide to Aleister Crowley, a critical edition of Aleister (06:01):
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Speaker1: Crowley's The Sort of Song, and most recently from Oxford University Press, (06:06):
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Speaker1: the book Friendship and Doubt, which looks at Aleister Crowley, J.F.C. (06:12):
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Speaker1: Fuller, Victor Neuberg, and British agnosticism. (06:16):
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Speaker0: Here it is. (06:20):
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Speaker2: Excellent. I would love to get into that later on in the podcast, (06:20):
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Speaker2: because Fuller is a bizarre and interesting character. (06:24):
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Speaker1: For sure. (06:27):
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Speaker2: Yeah, that's good. That'll be interesting. Yes. So sorry. Sorry to interrupt. (06:28):
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Speaker0: Oh, no worries. Yeah. Thank you for the great intro, Richard. (06:32):
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Speaker0: Hey, everyone. My name is Lynn, or Mavius Lynn, and I am a writer, (06:35):
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Speaker0: artist, practicing occultist. (06:39):
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Speaker0: So a lot of my work gets rather academic, but I am a practitioner as well. (06:42):
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Speaker0: I've been published twice now in two, (06:47):
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Speaker0: very active in my local pagan community as (06:52):
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Speaker0: well as my local thelemic and occult community where i (06:55):
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Speaker0: teach classes and spread educational content (06:58):
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Speaker0: i also travel and do some teaching through various conventions as well and of (07:01):
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Speaker0: course the particular area of my focus is thelema in terms of that but my practice (07:07):
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Speaker0: and special interests are not confined to thelema but that generally tends to (07:13):
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Speaker0: be what I talk about and teach. (07:18):
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Speaker2: I understand completely. When people meet me, they expect me to just be running (07:20):
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Speaker2: around in a robe or something. And I was like, oh no, that's just one of my, (07:24):
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Speaker2: that's just one of my 100 special interests. Let me introduce you to all the other ones. (07:27):
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Speaker1: And so that's a good thing too. I mean, people can get very focused on just (07:33):
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Speaker1: the whole thing, but catch you like being a grounded individual and having a (07:37):
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Speaker1: variety of interests is a good thing. (07:41):
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Speaker2: So talk about that. Cause you both seem like a pretty grounded couple and like grounded people. (07:43):
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Speaker2: So you do, you do, you definitely do. (07:48):
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Speaker2: And let's just start off on what you just said, Richard, because what, (07:54):
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Speaker2: what for you, what for both of you constitutes a well-balanced, (07:59):
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Speaker2: well-rounded and grounded magician? (08:02):
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Speaker2: And what does that actually mean in real world terms? Cause I think that's something (08:04):
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Speaker2: that actually we all can get fuzzy on from, from time to time. (08:07):
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Speaker1: Yeah, I guess my, what comes to mind for me is being in academia and going to (08:10):
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Speaker1: an academic party for one of my, you know, (08:18):
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Speaker1: faculty members was throwing and everyone got together and they were just talking shop the whole time. (08:23):
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Speaker1: And I just thought, you all are so boring. (08:29):
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Speaker1: You know, I love these people. I work with them. But, you know, (08:31):
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Speaker1: you're thinking your time off, you might talk about something else. (08:34):
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Speaker1: And, you know, I just have a wide variety of interests. You know, (08:37):
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Speaker1: while I've been interested in, you know, magic and Thalema my whole life, (08:40):
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Speaker1: I mean, I'm also, you know, a musician. I like listening to music. (08:44):
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Speaker1: I'm a big fan of, you know, science fiction and fantasy literature. Yeah. (08:48):
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Speaker1: I grew up on Marvel Comics, and so seeing all the MCU happening is pretty exciting. But I don't know. (08:53):
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Speaker1: Most things I can find some angle of interest in. (09:01):
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Speaker1: I feel like being able to have a normal conversation with people is kind of (09:05):
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Speaker1: the hallmark of being a well-rounded person. (09:09):
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Speaker1: So I just have to be talking about magic all the time. There are other things (09:12):
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Speaker1: in life that one can converse about. (09:15):
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Speaker2: Definitely. (09:18):
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Speaker0: I think that's fantastic, Rick. I think for me personally, my mind comes back (09:18):
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Speaker0: to that great quote by Crowley, which is success is your proof. (09:24):
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Speaker0: And within that context, it's really asking the question, is it working? (09:28):
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Speaker0: Is my current lifestyle, my interests, my hobbies, every facet of your life (09:32):
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Speaker0: balanced enough so that you can do your will once you know it? (09:38):
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Speaker0: And if you're out of balance, and something's not working out, (09:42):
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Speaker0: I think there are lots of things, lots of roadblocks, lots of feedback the world (09:46):
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Speaker0: will give you to knock you back on course, so to speak. (09:51):
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Speaker0: A huge part of my personal practice is actually yoga. (09:54):
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Speaker0: And that forces me to return back to a place where I am consciously assessing (09:58):
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Speaker0: my actions, my thoughts, how I'm moving through the world. (10:05):
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Speaker0: It's not just, did I do that ritual (10:09):
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Speaker0: really cool? And do I do all the cool hobbies and check off the list? (10:11):
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Speaker0: You know, it's not a list to check off. It's an ongoing conversation with yourself mentally, (10:16):
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Speaker0: physically, but also your place in the world and listening to the feedback the (10:22):
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Speaker0: world is giving you and listening to yourself and making sure that you are doing (10:28):
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Speaker0: your will in a way that's constructive and you are able to go forward. (10:34):
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Speaker0: You know, for example, being mindful of how your language and your words around others impacts those. (10:37):
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Speaker0: I've always viewed other people as a beautiful gift in our lives, (10:46):
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Speaker0: whether it's friends or family, and a beautiful resource as well. I learned so much. (10:51):
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Speaker0: I'm nourished as a human being by those in my life. (10:57):
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Speaker0: And if I were to just lash out at people and be angry and be super aggressive, (11:00):
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Speaker0: then I would, quite frankly, wither that resource. (11:08):
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Speaker0: I would hurt those around me and lose that connection because they are a part (11:11):
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Speaker0: of my trajectory forward in my will. (11:16):
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Speaker0: So that's just one example of, I think, how magicians can become unbalanced in particular. (11:18):
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Speaker2: Okay. And how do you both define what will is, since you've brought it up? (11:25):
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Speaker1: Well, I think for me, and the elevator pitch sort of sense. (11:32):
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Speaker2: Well, I think the audience probably knows the elevator pitch. (11:37):
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Speaker2: So I want to know the elevator pitch, too. I don't want to cut you off, (11:41):
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Speaker2: but I want to know the real answer from lived experience as well. (11:44):
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Speaker1: Well, I guess I would say I'd like to start with the elevator pitch. (11:48):
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Speaker1: I think it's also my lived experience is that, for me, I guess my true will (11:52):
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Speaker1: is if I stop doing everything that I'm doing in my life, what's the one thing I cannot not do? (11:59):
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Speaker1: You know the other thing that i have to do you know if she wants to take away (12:05):
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Speaker1: everything else and for me that's you know what what blows up to the surface (12:08):
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Speaker1: every time is the writing you know for me that's something i've from the time (12:12):
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Speaker1: i was a child i've always wanted to do and it's the thing i keep coming back (12:16):
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Speaker1: to and it's something i've recognized as being just the core of my being (12:19):
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Speaker1: and and that's where i put my energy and my my effort to you know kind of fulfill (12:25):
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Speaker1: who i am and which I guess kind of comes back to that idea of, of, (12:31):
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Speaker1: of will it's this kind of being in touch with your, your real nature and honoring (12:35):
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Speaker1: that and expressing that and focusing, (12:40):
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Speaker1: you know, realizing that to the best of your potential. Hmm. (12:43):
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Speaker2: Are you a, sorry, go ahead. (12:47):
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Speaker0: Oh, I was just going to say to sort of piggyback on that. I'd imagine it'd say (12:49):
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Speaker0: a lot of the same thing, but for me, it's returning back. (12:53):
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Speaker0: It's for me, true will is this innermost spark of divinity that I seek to align myself and my path with. (12:56):
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Speaker0: And for me, a great way to think about is it as sort of Richard was saying, (13:02):
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Speaker0: but in a different way, in my own way, and it's that, that which is left over (13:06):
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Speaker0: when everything is taken away. (13:10):
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Speaker0: So as human beings navigating through the world, we are faced with continual (13:11):
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Speaker0: loss, tragedy, all of these things that challenge us. (13:17):
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Speaker0: And I certainly have in my own life, in my own way, as I'm sure a lot of people could relate to. (13:22):
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Speaker0: But when we've lost everything, what is left over? When we've shed all of that (13:27):
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Speaker0: external stuff, we're left with ourselves. (13:30):
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Speaker2: I think that's a really practical and helpful definition, the kind of the subtractive. (13:34):
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Speaker2: So that suggests a philosophic framework where people come in with already having (13:39):
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Speaker2: a will, which already presumes a whole lot of other metaphysical stuff. (13:46):
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Speaker2: Like they came from somewhere, for instance, and what was going on there. (13:50):
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Speaker2: But am I right in that, that you would define will as something that we come prepackaged with? (13:54):
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Speaker0: Well i'll say this i think (14:00):
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Speaker0: there is perhaps some thread hard (14:03):
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Speaker0: baked into that which is human right so humans don't (14:07):
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Speaker0: spontaneously generate in the world we we (14:10):
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Speaker0: sort of move past this idea of spontaneous generation but that being said i (14:14):
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Speaker0: think for me to cling tightly to any kind of hard and fast notion would be doing (14:18):
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Speaker0: myself a disservice and doing myself a disservice and seeking divinity in my (14:26):
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Speaker0: path spiritually, which sounds like a really woo-woo response. (14:31):
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Speaker0: But I truly believe that the harder I become in thinking I know the way things (14:34):
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Speaker0: are supposed to work and thinking I know the nature of divinity and thinking I know myself. (14:40):
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Speaker0: The harder that nut is, I think the more that closes myself off to experiences and understanding. (14:44):
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Speaker0: And so I personally, when I approach spiritual work in general. (14:51):
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Speaker0: So for example, I'm currently in the process of scrying the 30 Enochian Athers (14:56):
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Speaker0: and doing that sort of Enochian work. (15:01):
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Speaker0: If I were to come into that with hard ideas of what Enochian angels are, (15:04):
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Speaker0: I think I would not allow myself to experience what it was supposed to be. (15:11):
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Speaker0: So that is to say, I don't fully know because I'm still alive. I'm not dead yet. (15:16):
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Speaker0: I am not. So I don't know what happens after. I don't know what happens before. (15:22):
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Speaker0: And I live with that uncertainty quite comfortably because I think it's quite (15:25):
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Speaker0: beautiful and it allows me potential to experience new things. (15:29):
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Speaker2: We may all have like, sorry, go ahead. (15:33):
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Speaker1: Oh, if I could piggyback off of that too, I think there is (15:36):
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Speaker1: Different ways you could approach the concept of will in Philema. (15:40):
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Speaker1: And one of these is this idea of some sort of divinity or plan that you're born (15:46):
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Speaker1: into this world with a place in the big machine of the cosmos. (15:54):
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Speaker1: And that when by doing your will, you're aligning yourself with the cosmic will, (15:58):
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Speaker1: and you're fulfilling your purpose in the grand design, (16:03):
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Speaker1: which again, in some ways implies a grand designer but (16:05):
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Speaker1: you can just as easily conceive of true will (16:09):
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Speaker1: as i am a bundle of dna (16:12):
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Speaker1: and human experiences nature and nurture (16:16):
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Speaker1: and i as a kind (16:19):
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Speaker1: of a unique combination of you know these these (16:22):
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Speaker1: things that make up a human being i'm just discovering myself (16:25):
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Speaker1: and who i am and being true to my individual (16:29):
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Speaker1: unique nature and that doesn't necessarily involve you (16:32):
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Speaker1: know the the metaphysical apparatus of you (16:36):
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Speaker1: know the divine plan or your true calling or what have (16:39):
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Speaker1: you and like lynn was saying there's uh there's you know i am also comfortable (16:42):
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Speaker1: with this this idea of uncertainty it may be a it may be b and it doesn't really (16:48):
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Speaker1: matter because it's more the act of doing and and following my will that that (16:52):
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Speaker1: to me is the the the main thing and the the (16:59):
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Speaker1: metaphysics behind it is ultimately unknowable, and I think (17:03):
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Speaker2: That involves just kind of, (17:08):
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Speaker1: You know, acknowledging that there are multiple possible explanations for what's (17:09):
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Speaker1: going on and just being okay with that. (17:14):
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Speaker1: I'm a statistician, so I'm very comfortable with the idea that things exist (17:16):
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Speaker1: probabilistically, but not necessarily with any certainty. (17:22):
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Speaker2: That, for me, is one of the most important things about Crowley and, (17:26):
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Speaker2: of course, how he was interpreted by Bob Wilson and people like that. (17:29):
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Speaker2: And that's something that is (17:32):
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Speaker2: completely lost, not just in religion and magic, but in the modern world. (17:34):
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Speaker2: Like, people are not okay with uncertainty anymore. (17:40):
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Speaker2: And they want things to be black and white, which is unfortunate. (17:43):
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Speaker2: So, which is a long way of saying it's refreshing to have an uncertain conversation. (17:47):
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Speaker1: Yeah, I mean, I find that, you know, kind of being involved in Neuro Templi Orientis, (17:52):
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Speaker1: I find that people who come to that organization, sometimes, (17:57):
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Speaker1: I don't even want to say often, But sometimes there are people who have come (18:01):
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Speaker1: from recovering Catholics or something, and they're getting away from an organized religion. (18:04):
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Speaker1: But because they're coming from that framework, they're looking for someone (18:08):
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Speaker1: to tell them what to think and what to do and what to follow. (18:13):
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Speaker1: And in OTO, it's just going to be kind of like, no, we're here to kind of support (18:16):
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Speaker1: you and you finding out for yourself who you are and finding your best path. (18:20):
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Speaker1: We're all here to support each other, but we're not here to tell you what to (18:24):
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Speaker1: do. And sometimes what happens is that people go, well, heck, (18:28):
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Speaker1: I'm going to go over here and find the severed teacher who will tell me what to think. (18:31):
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Speaker1: And, you know, I think this idea of uncertainty is hard for some people. Have you ever read (18:34):
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Speaker2: There was a – go ahead, go ahead. (18:41):
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Speaker0: Do we have a moment for a quick David Lynch quote that I absolutely love? (18:43):
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Speaker2: Yes, yes, yes, of course. (18:47):
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Speaker0: All right. So this is one of my favorites pertaining to this. (18:49):
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Speaker0: And it's that when people grow and I'm paraphrasing because it's off the top (18:51):
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Speaker0: of my head, but when people grow up, they think they understand the way the world works. (18:55):
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Speaker0: But in reality, they just experience a limiting of the imagination. (18:59):
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Speaker2: That's great. Yeah. Yeah. Very interesting. I lost my train of thought. (19:03):
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Speaker1: Yeah, I guess I would just jump in and say that recently, kind of on that similar (19:10):
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Speaker1: train of thought, as I recently read a study in a psychological journal that (19:14):
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Speaker1: talked about how in ages past, (19:18):
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Speaker1: having a sort of a nuanced view of things was considered, (19:22):
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Speaker1: you know, a person with those sorts of views was considered to be kind (19:28):
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Speaker1: of knowledgeable and has perceived as (19:30):
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Speaker1: someone who has looked deeply into a matter and kind of collected all the facts (19:33):
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Speaker1: but we're now living in a time this is so very polarized that people who are (19:38):
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Speaker1: trying to have a nuanced view of something tend to be ostracized by people on (19:44):
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Speaker1: both extremes to many points of view yeah (19:51):
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Speaker2: Let's just go let's just focus straight on that because i'm i don't i'm not (19:53):
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Speaker2: i don't do organized groups anymore but i used to do them a lot i joined a whole (19:58):
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Speaker2: lot to run around like a proper chaos magician and learn as much as i could (20:02):
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Speaker2: And one of the things I really miss about that, that world, whatever we want (20:06):
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Speaker2: to call it, the paramasonic world, and that I particularly really, (20:13):
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Speaker2: I never joined the OTO, but I used to go to Gnostic masses in LA a lot. (20:17):
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Speaker2: And, and I am a Thelemite. So, but one thing, not about, not about the Lama (20:20):
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Speaker2: specifically, but one thing that I always really appreciated about the OTO is, you know, (20:25):
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Speaker2: first of all, people are really smart and have a lot of really interesting things (20:30):
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Speaker2: that they're into, but But also that sense of wanting, not just wanting more (20:33):
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Speaker2: or wanting the truth in this banal sense, (20:38):
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Speaker2: but really wanting to be outside of that polarization and occupying like a zone (20:40):
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Speaker2: of, you know, frankly, very rebellious intellect. (20:47):
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Speaker2: And I always, I was whenever I was always shocked and I was increasingly shocked (20:51):
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Speaker2: as time went on, how much that energy has vanished from the culture. (20:57):
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Speaker2: Like you really can only find that like sometimes like (21:01):
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Speaker2: you go to you know secret society meetings things (21:05):
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Speaker2: like that and it's like even the fact that people are voracious (21:08):
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Speaker2: readers like they're reading all this stuff they're reading old books (21:11):
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Speaker2: they're reading classics that's like an occult thing now like i don't see that (21:14):
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Speaker2: out in life i see that when i you know what i mean occult as in hidden it's (21:17):
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Speaker2: like almost that people being active readers and you know to that caliber like (21:21):
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Speaker2: that's pretty occult these days so yeah not as that wasn't as much a question it was just (21:26):
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Speaker1: Reminiscing yeah no my brain is just trying to kind of catching up (21:32):
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Speaker1: on that i mean i love having my preconceptions (21:35):
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Speaker1: challenged and and finding a point of (21:39):
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Speaker1: view that is contrary to my own what i (21:42):
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Speaker1: think of you know one of my favorite intellectual exercises is (21:45):
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Speaker1: kind of picking up some sort of a theory or school of thought you (21:48):
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Speaker1: know whether it be freud or young or sociobiology (21:51):
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Speaker1: or something i'm not saying i'm using psychology examples because i'm (21:54):
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Speaker1: a psychologist by training but just you know (21:57):
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Speaker1: trying on like a pair of clothes you know a particular perspective (22:00):
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Speaker1: or viewpoint and saying well how far can we go (22:04):
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Speaker1: with this how much you know can sociobiology actually explain it doesn't necessarily (22:07):
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Speaker1: mean that i'm agreeing with it but it's just to me the intellectual exercise (22:11):
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Speaker1: of saying how much can you know can you wring out of this how much explanatory (22:16):
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Speaker1: power does this point of view have this is great and again having (22:20):
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Speaker1: evidence presented to me that kind of makes me question my own assumptions and (22:26):
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Speaker1: taking a step back and reevaluating what I know. I mean, that's, (22:30):
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Speaker1: that's exhilarating to me. (22:33):
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Speaker1: So I guess I would kind of, that's the first thing that what you said kind of prompted. (22:35):
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Speaker0: I mean, my mind goes to a lot of my experience. Whoa. A lot of my experience with free thought, (22:40):
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Speaker0: So I think this is an interesting little side note, because it's also how Richard (22:48):
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Speaker0: and I kind of met, or at least like wrapped up in that story. (22:53):
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Speaker0: But back when, well, my start into the occult and like, the path I'm currently (22:56):
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Speaker0: on really began back when I was in middle school and high school, (23:01):
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Speaker0: just getting really into philosophy. (23:06):
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Speaker0: And that translated into college which of course philosophy led to getting into (23:08):
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Speaker0: the occult but in college that also meant getting into the free thought movement (23:13):
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Speaker0: and so i was heavily involved in that and i actually served as the president (23:16):
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Speaker0: of my local free thought society what. (23:20):
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Speaker2: Is what is free thought i actually don't know other than what it sounds like (23:22):
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Speaker0: Yeah so it's well go ahead richard oh thank you so it's a movement that has (23:27):
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Speaker0: historical ties into movements of questioning overarching dogma in society. (23:33):
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Speaker0: So that could be political, that could be spiritual, religious dogma, (23:39):
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Speaker0: social, cultural norms. (23:44):
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Speaker0: So it's this idea of arriving at this place, thinking about things more in a (23:46):
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Speaker0: more reasonable sort of intellectual way, intellectually curious way. (23:52):
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Speaker0: And so Richard actually recently wrote a book all about this, (23:56):
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Speaker0: exploring the historical roots of that, which we will come back to. (23:59):
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Speaker0: Because I kind of want to focus, just get this story out, because (24:02):
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Speaker0: I think it might help people think about how we have conversations and what's (24:05):
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Speaker0: a good way to have conversations because also as a local community organ organizer (24:10):
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Speaker0: now so I started off young doing community organizing and this free thought (24:15):
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Speaker0: and now I'm an organizer on occult spaces not only in person. (24:19):
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Speaker0: Through the pagan community, but also OTO, where I serve as a local officer, (24:24):
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Speaker0: but also my own study groups I run on the internet through Discord and all of that fun stuff. (24:28):
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Speaker0: But anyway, there's always this question of how do we have productive conversations? (24:34):
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Speaker0: Because people come to occult spaces or even discussion spaces with different (24:39):
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Speaker0: things they want to get out of it. (24:45):
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Speaker0: So I often see people in the occult, they come simply for support, (24:47):
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Speaker0: And they're part of this community for support. They may be coming from a high control religion. (24:52):
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Speaker0: They may be coming with some sort of trauma. (24:56):
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Speaker0: Whatever the case may be, they just want to be in a space where they're safe to be themselves. (24:59):
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Speaker0: Then you have people on the other side of it, coming to these spaces, (25:04):
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Speaker0: looking for to be intellectually challenged, right? (25:07):
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Speaker0: They want a little bit more fire to their conversation. (25:11):
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Speaker0: And they want to get into it. They want to get into ideas that are sometimes (25:13):
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Speaker0: difficult to grapple with. (25:17):
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Speaker0: Both are valid. And so when I was in the Freethinkers, the way I handled this (25:19):
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Speaker0: is I actually had three different discussion groups each meeting. (25:23):
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Speaker0: And I didn't want to call them fast, medium, slow, because that sounded a little (25:28):
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Speaker0: bit, I don't know, patronizing or disrespectful. So I chose animal names. (25:32):
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Speaker0: So fast was cheetah. Then there was, I think, horse and then panda. (25:37):
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Speaker2: That's great. (25:42):
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Speaker0: So in the cheetah mode, anything goes. So that's where you take things to the (25:43):
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Speaker0: pedantic extreme. You try to stretch philosophical ideas to their limits, right? (25:47):
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Speaker0: And you just take things to absurd dimensions. And in that challenge, (25:54):
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Speaker0: you just really break things down. (25:59):
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Speaker0: And a type of transformation and thought and understanding can take place. (26:01):
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Speaker2: And that's so valuable. Wow, wow, okay. (26:04):
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Speaker0: And that was also a space people could try on, like Richard was saying, (26:06):
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Speaker0: different ideas that weren't their own. So you can take the devil's advocate approach. (26:09):
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Speaker0: And people in that discussion group were expecting that. (26:13):
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Speaker0: So no one's feelings were hurt. And then in the horse mode, it was more talking (26:16):
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Speaker0: about your own ideas and your own feelings and your own perspective. (26:22):
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Speaker2: But in a more nuanced, careful, considerate way. (26:26):
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Speaker0: And then Panda mode was people who were wanting to share in a less personal, (26:30):
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Speaker0: safe, comfortable, extremely kind way. (26:36):
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Speaker0: So people coming to that were just looking for someone to have a coffee with (26:39):
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Speaker0: and ask them how their day was, which is completely valid too. (26:44):
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Speaker2: That's very smart. (26:47):
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Speaker0: But anyway, sorry, I completely derailed it a little bit, but I hope that was (26:48):
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Speaker0: helpful for our viewers and listeners today. but if you want to talk about friendship (26:52):
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Speaker0: and doubt that's a great opportunity good segue yeah. (26:56):
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Speaker2: Well let's let before before we before we move there (26:59):
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Speaker2: i i think that that's really valuable and you (27:02):
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Speaker2: know the the thing about magic is it's obviously very (27:06):
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Speaker2: much about the end it can be very much about the individual and it can be a (27:09):
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Speaker2: very individualist and at times edgulardy path so it's rare that you meet people (27:13):
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Speaker2: who have experience organizing groups and so that i mean just even And that (27:18):
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Speaker2: sounded really good, what you just said. (27:24):
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Speaker2: And it makes a lot of sense just with social dynamics. (27:26):
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Speaker2: But I'm curious, one of the, I definitely want to talk about friendship in doubt, (27:30):
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Speaker2: but one of the reasons I'm curious about kind of this conversation going to (27:34):
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Speaker2: maybe a meta level past just the concept of magic and into organizing, (27:38):
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Speaker2: we could talk about your, you know, (27:44):
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Speaker2: social organizing, but also experiencing life as a magical couple is something (27:45):
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Speaker2: I'm very interested in because it's a perspective that we hear a little bit (27:50):
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Speaker2: more of now, but not much. (27:56):
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Speaker2: And as the occult world grows, as I think it is, I think that's very healthy (27:58):
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Speaker2: and helpful for people to have a model or information on that. (28:01):
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Speaker2: So in terms of putting that in a question, how did you two meet? (28:06):
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Speaker0: Oh, yeah, yeah, absolutely. So I guess I'll tell some of the story, (28:11):
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Speaker0: which is, interestingly enough, ties back into friendship and doubt as well. (28:15):
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Speaker0: But I actually, people always assume I met Richard through the OTO, which was not the case. (28:20):
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Speaker0: So fun, fun fact. Oh, good. You brought it out. (28:26):
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Speaker0: Fun fact. I was actually a published writer and had started my YouTube channel (28:30):
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Speaker0: and was like doing all of this and joined the OTO without even knowing him. (28:34):
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Speaker0: Of course, I knew in theory who he was because he's the author of Pertorabo, (28:38):
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Speaker0: who doesn't know Richard. (28:42):
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Speaker0: If you're a Thelemite, you'd know who Richard Kaczynski is. (28:44):
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Speaker0: But what happened was, is I really wanted a copy of this book, sort of song, which is. (28:47):
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Speaker2: Completely sold out. A very non-controversial book. There's nothing shocking in there. (28:55):
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Speaker0: I, I didn't have the money to like preorder it. And it was already sold out. (29:01):
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Speaker0: But a friend of mine, Jean saw that Richard was selling extra copies. And I and I had money. (29:05):
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Speaker0: So I jumped on I was like, Hey, I would love to buy a copy from you. (29:11):
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Speaker0: And then it turned out he was thinking about mailing me the book. (29:14):
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Speaker0: And they're like, Oh, wow, we actually live in this same town, (29:18):
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Speaker0: which both of us did not know. (29:21):
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Speaker0: And so we're like, Oh, okay, but we're also both vegetarians. (29:23):
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Speaker0: That's interesting so let's go meet up for sushi (29:26):
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Speaker0: and i didn't know richard was single let's just (29:30):
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Speaker0: put that out there um so i (29:32):
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Speaker0: a book from him and we just had such (29:35):
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Speaker0: an amazing time what what turned out to be well i (29:38):
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Speaker0: was expecting just to be like hi you know nice to meet you can (29:42):
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Speaker0: i interview you for my podcast turned into hours of (29:45):
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Speaker0: conversation he is such an amazing interesting person (29:48):
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Speaker0: to talk to you oh likewise oh thank you (29:51):
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Speaker0: and then and then of course it came out so he was writing another book called (29:54):
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Speaker0: friendship and doubt which is all about alexander crowley and agnosticism and (30:00):
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Speaker0: free thought and i had previously served as an officer in my free thought society (30:05):
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Speaker0: so that was that was wild yeah. (30:12):
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Speaker1: That's that seemed like the most unlikely coincidence i mean you you're thinking (30:14):
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Speaker1: in a cult space, there are certain things that would be, you would not be surprised (30:18):
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Speaker1: to have some kind of a common interest, you know? (30:22):
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Speaker1: You know, two vegetarians who are into magic. Okay, that happens. (30:25):
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Speaker1: I know quite a lot of occultists who are also vegetarians, but free thought (30:28):
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Speaker1: is such like a very unusual and specific thing that. (30:33):
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Speaker1: You know to have had that background it's like wow and yeah (30:36):
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Speaker1: so i kind of came into this just feeling you know (30:40):
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Speaker1: guilty saying i don't want to charge you 15 bucks to fedex a book across town (30:43):
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Speaker1: let me just hand it to you and save you some money and then we just started (30:47):
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Speaker1: talking about oh what's you know what's a good occult movie and i'm like oh (30:51):
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Speaker1: you know it was uh angel heart i love it i love i've never seen angel i love (30:56):
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Speaker1: oh my god we've got to watch angel heart that's one of my favorite I love that. (31:00):
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Speaker2: I love that. That's one of my favorite movies, too. I love that. Robert De Niro. (31:03):
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Speaker0: And I think like another element of the story that I think is important that (31:07):
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Speaker0: a lot of people listening are probably like, I want to know about that is like (31:10):
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Speaker0: how how that initial bridge into like friendship to romance happened. (31:14):
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Speaker0: And so I basically just like moved in with Richard. I just like, I'm just kidding. (31:18):
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Speaker0: No, I mean, I was just I don't want to say obsessed with him. (31:24):
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Speaker0: But And just a bright soul in the world that I want to be close to all the time. (31:30):
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Speaker0: So he was very kind to let me come over to his house a lot and eat his food and read his books. (31:35):
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Speaker0: And so we had that friendship going on. And I had no idea. (31:41):
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Speaker0: I did not know if I thought he was letting me do that because he felt sorry (31:46):
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Speaker0: for me because I didn't have any friends. But no. (31:49):
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Speaker0: And to quote him, he was never going to make the first move. (31:54):
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Speaker0: He would have went to his grave without telling me any feelings. (31:57):
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Speaker0: And I was scared too, because I was like, what if I become this man stalker? (32:00):
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Speaker0: I mean, of course, I would have respected his boundaries and all of that. (32:04):
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Speaker0: But a part of me, and it was a very slow kind of thing, a part of me was absolutely (32:09):
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Speaker0: falling madly in love with him. How could I not? (32:14):
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Speaker0: I made the first move. I was like, I'm going to go for it and it's just going to be what it is. (32:18):
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Speaker0: And I'm very lucky that the story ended with it being mutual and I'm not Richard Kaczynski's stalker. (32:24):
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Speaker0: But yeah, he was just very aware, especially being in a higher degree than me (32:32):
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Speaker0: in the OTO and everything. (32:37):
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Speaker0: He was never going to make that happen. So I made that happen and I'm very glad I did. (32:38):
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Speaker1: Yeah, just, again, just being aware of the power differential there in terms (32:42):
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Speaker1: of seniority and OTO and things like that, because we were both members, (32:48):
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Speaker1: even though we didn't meet that capacity. (32:51):
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Speaker1: And I didn't want to be that guy, you know? (32:53):
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Speaker2: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. (32:56):
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Speaker0: Yeah. And I mean, it's interesting, even though we're both in the same fraternal (32:58):
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Speaker0: order, like the things we do are very different. (33:01):
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Speaker0: So we're technically under the same roof, but we're kind of do our own thing. (33:03):
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Speaker0: We're not really, we don't really do stuff together much in the OTO. (33:08):
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Speaker1: We have 10 things. (33:12):
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Speaker0: Yeah, we have 10 things. I take him to things that he otherwise would not be (33:13):
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Speaker0: at. I aggressively make him do stuff. (33:17):
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Speaker2: That's good. That's good. That's very good. That's always healthy. I need more of that too. (33:20):
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Speaker2: Especially after COVID, I feel like. Normally introverted people kind of like (33:25):
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Speaker2: went further introverted and didn't come out. (33:31):
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Speaker2: What would you say that the unique benefits and challenges of having, (33:34):
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Speaker2: I mean, there's three levels here. Having not just a magical relationship, (33:40):
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Speaker2: but a Thelemic relationship. (33:43):
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Speaker2: And then you've already touched on both being in the OTO. (33:45):
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Speaker2: But specifically, let's just talk about being a Thelemic couple, if I can say that. (33:47):
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Speaker2: What would you say the unique challenges and pluses are? (33:53):
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Speaker1: I don't know if I can think of any challenges. I guess I'll leave that to Linda. (33:58):
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Speaker2: And by the way, this doesn't have to be a personal question. (34:05):
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Speaker2: It can be what you've observed in others since you have large social circles. (34:09):
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Speaker1: Yeah, yeah. I mean, from my perspective, it's all been benefits. (34:14):
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Speaker1: I mean, when you're, I don't know, I suppose with anything in life, (34:18):
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Speaker1: but this is particularly true if you're a magician or a fellow might or what (34:22):
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Speaker1: have you. it's that your spiritual work takes up a great deal of your time and energy. (34:26):
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Speaker1: And if you're also participating in an organization, that's going to take up your time as well. (34:33):
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Speaker1: And so to have a partner who is doing the same things, that just opens up all (34:39):
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Speaker1: that more opportunity for you to (34:44):
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Speaker1: enjoy those things together and not be doing these things in isolation and having (34:46):
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Speaker1: to struggle to find the times to be together, it just provides this opportunity for us to, (34:52):
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Speaker1: even though our spiritual journeys are entirely our own, (34:57):
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Speaker1: but it also allows us to go on that journey side by side and, (35:02):
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Speaker1: you know, enjoy those experiences together. (35:06):
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Speaker1: Go to Thalemacon together or take trips to give a presentation somewhere or (35:09):
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Speaker1: go to a Gnostic Mass together and have you or celebrate the Gnostic mess together (35:14):
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Speaker1: so uh you know that's so that to me it's just it's all benefits um if you want to (35:19):
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Speaker0: Add yeah yeah so like i think there's like two things (35:25):
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Speaker0: in my mind there's like us personally and then there's (35:28):
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Speaker0: like things i've observed in a larger occult community for (35:31):
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Speaker0: us personally it's been incredibly nourishing and beautiful and i feel like (35:34):
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Speaker0: the depth of our connection is so much more and that we share such a similar (35:43):
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Speaker0: perspective on spirituality and religion, philosophy, (35:48):
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Speaker0: all of that good stuff, we can take things a lot deeper. (35:51):
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Speaker0: And I feel very seen in a way that you can absolutely feel seen in any kind (35:55):
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Speaker0: of relationship with anyone, of course, but I think it's a new dimension to (35:59):
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Speaker0: be with another Thelemite and an absolute blessing to be with Richard in any capacity. (36:03):
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Speaker0: So I just, I admire him so much. he is truly such a radiant person who inspires everyone around him. (36:07):
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Speaker0: And I just, I feel so blessed to be near that light. (36:17):
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Speaker0: Um, and I, to eat his food and read his books. (36:19):
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Speaker0: Um, but, uh, and, and I think that's, um, (36:25):
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Speaker0: It's important to remember that it's not just like we're Thelemites, (36:30):
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Speaker0: but we're such similar people because both of us are writers, (36:34):
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Speaker0: some better than others. (36:39):
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Speaker0: I'm just kidding. We write different things. (36:41):
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Speaker0: Well, I guess we both write a cult, but he writes more historical stuff. (36:44):
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Speaker0: I write more like practitioner kind of perspective. (36:47):
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Speaker0: But, you know, I think for me, a fun day together is us sitting near each other (36:50):
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Speaker0: and just writing and researching and bouncing ideas off of each other. (36:56):
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Speaker0: And then we watch a movie in at night and that's (36:59):
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Speaker0: that's fun for us but i can imagine other people who have a very different lifestyle (37:03):
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Speaker0: wouldn't like that kind of working so much but for me it's not work it's really (37:06):
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Speaker0: play yeah um i love reading i love writing i love researching and like to do (37:11):
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Speaker0: it next to someone who's doing similar but slightly different it's a joy beyond anything that's. (37:16):
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Speaker2: Wonderful you mentioned (37:22):
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Speaker0: Go ahead yeah go ahead i can broaden it back up to like general observations if you want to. (37:23):
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Speaker2: Well, I wanted to point to one thread in that. That was all beautiful. (37:28):
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Speaker2: There was something that sounded a bit like a relationship framework emerging (37:33):
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Speaker2: from that, where it was the idea, I think Richard, you said, (37:37):
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Speaker2: you're both on your spiritual journey, and they're both different. (37:40):
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Speaker2: I mean, particularly when you're doing magic or yoga, or let alone the Lema, (37:44):
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Speaker2: you're having a lot of intense internal experiences. (37:48):
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Speaker2: And you may be going through depending on what time in your life (37:51):
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Speaker2: it is and what you're practicing and how intense you may (37:54):
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Speaker2: be going through really intense personal upheavals and (37:57):
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Speaker2: shifts like very intense ones so i think you kind of pointed to this idea of (38:00):
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Speaker2: you're both on your own journey but you can do it next to each other and i thought (38:04):
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Speaker2: that was worth highlighting and maybe if you if you would say a bit more about (38:09):
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Speaker2: that because that sounds like a like a an actual useful framework yes (38:13):
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Speaker1: Yeah yeah i think that you And there's this idea I mentioned earlier that in (38:18):
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Speaker1: like a fraternal organization like OTO, (38:22):
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Speaker1: I mean, one of the things that that offers is it doesn't tell you how to live (38:26):
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Speaker1: your life or what you should do or what you should think, but kind of supports (38:29):
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Speaker1: you in finding your own way to be the best version of yourself. (38:33):
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Speaker1: It's you know this relationship is like that on steroids I mean we are doing (38:38):
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Speaker1: our own thing but you know we are also supporting each other and you know being (38:43):
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Speaker1: each other's you know biggest cheerleader and yeah there's also that sense to which (38:48):
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Speaker1: you know we also overlap you know when you (38:54):
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Speaker1: know we were talking about you know no kid magic for instance you (38:57):
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Speaker1: know that's a thing that we're doing you know together you know (39:00):
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Speaker1: oh wow that's wow i'm doing the the calls okay you (39:03):
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Speaker1: know when is doing this thing where she goes into the vision (39:06):
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Speaker1: and then while she's in the vision kind of does a very quick watercolor of what (39:09):
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Speaker1: she's wow and so we're kind of working through something and doing this you (39:13):
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Speaker1: know this sort of work together and so So having those opportunities to support (39:18):
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Speaker1: each other is nice as well. (39:25):
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Speaker1: I mean, mom's ideas off of her, I'll pull out references when she's working (39:28):
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Speaker1: on something and go, oh, you should look at this too. (39:34):
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Speaker1: But then seeing, I mean, I might put a book in front of her face, (39:36):
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Speaker1: but then to see her read that and then what she does with it. (39:40):
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Speaker1: And then, you know, put something, create something and write something that's (39:44):
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Speaker1: in her own words and her own unique viewpoint. (39:48):
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Speaker1: I mean, blows my mind every time. So it's... (39:50):
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Speaker0: He has a really good library. (39:53):
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Speaker2: I'm very blessed that I have access to that. (39:55):
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Speaker0: But I did want to say something really important. And because I do see as people (39:57):
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Speaker0: publicly writing and doing stuff together, as Richard and I are, (40:03):
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Speaker0: people do occasionally project stuff onto us and specifically project weird things onto me. (40:07):
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Speaker0: And I want to say this very explicitly. (40:11):
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Speaker0: In Thelema, right out of our central sacred holy text, the book of the law, (40:14):
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Speaker0: chapter one, it says, every man and every woman is a star. (40:18):
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Speaker0: Not men are stars and women are subservient to them. (40:22):
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Speaker0: So this idea of equality is baked into our central philosophy and tenets right (40:26):
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Speaker0: out of the book of the law. (40:34):
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Speaker0: So for Richard and I, I am not subservient to him in a relationship. (40:35):
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Speaker0: Richard is not the magician and I'm like his helper. That's not our dynamic (40:39):
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Speaker0: at all. We are both magicians and we are at equal places in our relationship. (40:42):
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Speaker0: Our work overlaps, like Richard said, and that's a beautiful thing. (40:47):
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Speaker0: But my work is still my own. Richard's work is still his own. (40:50):
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Speaker0: And again, we are both magicians in our own right doing our own work. (40:54):
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Speaker0: And I think it's really beautiful. (40:58):
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Speaker0: This is actually like we talked about earlier, our first time doing like a podcast (41:00):
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Speaker0: together, because I'm very mindful of my work not being interpreted as just (41:03):
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Speaker0: simply being Richard's helper. (41:09):
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Speaker0: And I get those comments a lot that like, I'm doing this work in service to (41:11):
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Speaker0: Richard. And I just, I really want to emphasize the fact that this work started before Richard. (41:16):
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Speaker0: I am also a magician. And I think that's one of the beautiful things about Thelema (41:22):
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Speaker0: and this magical current is we both stand on our own. (41:28):
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Speaker0: And that brings a special kind of force and fire to the work, (41:33):
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Speaker0: but also our mundane lives and how our relationship plays out. (41:36):
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Speaker2: Thank you for pointing that out. But yeah, that is, how would you, (41:41):
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Speaker2: so just because you brought up the bit about mundane lives, how does that play out? (41:44):
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Speaker2: How do you feel that that changes the work and your day-to-day experience coming (41:49):
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Speaker2: at it from that viewpoint, which is wonderful. Thank you for elaborating that for people. (41:53):
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Speaker0: Well, I think, for example, when we, we, we don't, we don't subscribe to this model that like, (41:57):
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Speaker0: there's like gender imbalance, you know, (42:05):
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Speaker0: like the man's work is this and the woman's work is this like that's (42:10):
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Speaker0: not how we function we approach things as equal partners (42:13):
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Speaker0: so richard cooks i cook richard cleans (42:16):
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Speaker0: i clean so there's there's it's not (42:19):
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Speaker0: necessarily that like one person is doing everything as much as we go about (42:22):
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Speaker0: tasks and a more rational kind of like all right who has time to do this what (42:27):
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Speaker0: makes sense for example i love to garden one of my special interests outside (42:31):
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Speaker0: of the occult is actually gardening and plants and growing veggies. (42:36):
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Speaker0: And I love animals too. But that's a whole other thing. Anyways, (42:41):
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Speaker0: so like I typically am the one who likes to get out there in the yard and do the yard work. (42:44):
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Speaker0: Because I like to do it, and I think I'm pretty good at it. (42:49):
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Speaker0: And then sometimes there's enough time to do the yard work, and Richard doesn't. (42:52):
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Speaker1: Badly. (42:59):
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Speaker0: No, he gets really frustrated when he does it. (43:00):
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Speaker0: But yeah, I think, so our Thelemic house, I mean, Thelema looks as diverse as (43:05):
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Speaker0: the individuals doing it, right? I mean, but I think like our household is one (43:09):
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Speaker0: of egalitarianism and assigning tasks according to interests and an ability. (43:14):
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Speaker1: I just think there was a time we were doing the HelloFresh thing and loving (43:20):
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Speaker1: like doing preparing the meal. (43:23):
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Speaker2: Oh, yeah. I used to do Blue Apron. Yeah. Yeah. Those are great. Those are great. (43:25):
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Speaker1: If you do the cooking, I'm going to clean up everything afterwards. (43:29):
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Speaker1: And that worked out fine. (43:32):
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Speaker1: So it's, again, just kind of an equitable division there. That's great. (43:34):
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Speaker2: That's great. Okay. Well, let's talk about friendship and doubt. (43:38):
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Speaker2: Because you've been waiting patiently. (43:40):
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Speaker2: Give us the elevator pitch. Okay. (43:44):
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Speaker1: Well, Friendship in Doubt is the first book that actually looks at the role (43:47):
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Speaker1: of agnosticism and free thought in Bring Together, Alistair Crowley, J.F. C. (43:51):
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Speaker1: Fuller, and Victor Neuberg, who are the kind of the foundational members of (43:56):
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Speaker1: the Neurologist movement of Thalema. (44:00):
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Speaker1: And it looks at how that influenced the development of that Neurologist movement (44:03):
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Speaker1: and how they carried all that with them into the rest of their lives, (44:08):
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Speaker1: even after their friendships went their separate ways. (44:13):
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Speaker1: And just to kind of double back to our earlier conversation about what is free thought, (44:17):
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Speaker1: I guess I would say that the idea here of agnosticism and free thought in the (44:23):
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Speaker1: British era was this idea of taking religion out of politics, (44:28):
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Speaker1: out of our social lives, out of the lawmaking process, (44:35):
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Speaker1: and that the things that happen in society should be governed not by someone's (44:40):
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Speaker1: particular religious beliefs, (44:45):
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Speaker1: but by scientific evidence and facts. (44:47):
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Speaker1: And so there was that idea of questioning these underpinnings of society, (44:51):
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Speaker1: which in many cases were bound up in biblical belief and trying to supplant (44:57):
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Speaker1: that and replace that were evidence and facts. (45:04):
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Speaker2: Okay, so for those who don't know, I think Crowley is somewhat of a known quantity, (45:07):
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Speaker2: but explain who Victor Neuberg and J.F.C. Fuller were. (45:12):
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Speaker1: All right. Well, Victor Neuberg was a poet who Crowley looked up because some (45:16):
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Speaker1: of the poetry he was publishing in the Gnostic Journal at that time suggested (45:24):
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Speaker1: a gift or an affinity for astral projection. (45:28):
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Speaker1: And Victor Neuberg then became one of Crowley's students, the first student (45:33):
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Speaker1: in the AA system, the kind of the successor to the Hermetic Order of the Golden (45:39):
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Speaker1: Dawn that Crowley was one of the founders of. (45:45):
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Speaker1: And also they became lovers and so on. And after that, again, kind of fell apart. (45:47):
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Speaker1: You know, Victor Neuberg went on his way to create a little indie, (45:53):
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Speaker1: you know, bespoke printing press called the Vine Press and so on. (45:56):
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Speaker1: And later, as the poetry editor for the Daily Mirror, I'm sorry, (46:01):
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Speaker1: I'm forgetting the exact newspaper he worked for at the time, (46:07):
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Speaker1: but he basically discovered Dylan Thomas. (46:09):
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Speaker1: JFC Four was a military figure who was one of the three signatories or founders (46:12):
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Speaker1: of the AA movement I mentioned. (46:20):
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Speaker1: And he, again, came from this free thoughts and skeptical background, (46:22):
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Speaker1: found Crowley through these journals, became very devoted. (46:29):
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Speaker1: But once Crowley became sort of publicly notorious, (46:33):
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Speaker1: JFC for fear of what impact that connection might have for his military career (46:39):
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Speaker1: and kind of ghosted Crowley, basically, but privately continued to follow his (46:44):
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Speaker1: writings and collect all of his books and so on. (46:51):
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Speaker1: I went on to become a quite distinguished military person, made the rank of major general. (46:54):
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Speaker1: I had the notoriety of embracing fascism and being invited to Adolf Hitler's 50th birthday party. (47:01):
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Speaker1: So not cool in my book from that standpoint. (47:08):
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Speaker1: But the interesting thing about Fuller is that at the end of his life, (47:12):
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Speaker1: when he sold off his collection of Crowleyana, (47:17):
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Speaker1: He just had nothing but high praise for Crowley, saying that some of his poetry (47:20):
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Speaker1: was amongst the best in the English language and up there with some of the greats (47:24):
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Speaker1: in French and other languages as well. (47:29):
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Speaker1: So the idea that he could kind of ghost Crowley and kind of keep him at this (47:32):
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Speaker1: arm's-length distance for his military career, but nevertheless harbored this (47:35):
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Speaker1: profound sort of respect for him, I thought to be very interesting. Hmm. (47:40):
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Speaker2: Yeah, I've been thinking a lot about, because of the war in Ukraine, (47:45):
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Speaker2: I've been thinking a lot about Fuller, just the fact that Crowley, (47:49):
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Speaker2: in more or less this time period, was connected with Fuller, (47:52):
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Speaker2: who, in my understanding, invented blitzkrieg warfare, (47:56):
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Speaker2: which is more or less responsible for so much of the destruction that Germany (48:00):
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Speaker2: was able to wreck across Europe. (48:04):
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Speaker2: And also was friends with Walter Durante, who then went to Ukraine and was an (48:06):
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Speaker2: apologetic for Stalinism in the New York Times, which also led to quite a lot of carnage. (48:10):
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Speaker2: And I've just been thinking, this is such a bizarre period of time. (48:17):
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Speaker2: And then you get Vision and the Voice in the middle of that, (48:22):
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Speaker2: which in my opinion is Crowley's best book, best work, and is profound. (48:25):
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Speaker2: But yeah, Yeah, he was hanging out with some interesting people. (48:30):
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Speaker2: And the fact that those two went on to be so involved with the force and fire, (48:33):
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Speaker2: like the true destruction and force and fire that was to come is something that I've thought about. (48:39):
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Speaker2: I don't know if you have any insights into that. (48:44):
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Speaker1: Yeah, I mean, Crowley actually knew a surprising number of military people. (48:47):
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Speaker1: The Rites of Lucis, for instance, of these series of seven plays for each of (48:53):
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Speaker1: the planets in traditional astrology was originally came out of a ritual, (49:00):
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Speaker1: a demonstration of Verito Bartzabel at the house of Commander G.M. (49:06):
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Speaker1: Marston in the military that were just all kinds of connections that Crowley has. (49:10):
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Speaker1: And when you started to look at Crowley from this idea that he had intelligence connections as well. (49:17):
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Speaker1: During when he was in the United States, he reported on his own recognizance (49:25):
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Speaker1: to Commander Guy Gaunt, who was the British attaché to the United States. (49:30):
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Speaker1: So there's this idea that Crowley was actually involved in British intelligence. (49:37):
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Speaker1: That kind of explains why he had all these military connections. (49:41):
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Speaker2: Yeah. Okay. What do you think of Richard Spence's idea that Crowley was responsible (49:45):
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Speaker2: for sinking the Lusitania in the lead up to World War One? (49:52):
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Speaker2: That's a total tangent. That's a total tangent. (49:56):
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Speaker1: Yeah, I'm not sure about that. I mean, the interesting thing about Spence's (50:00):
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Speaker1: book, and to his credit, he says this right up front, as he says, (50:04):
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Speaker1: there's some stuff in this book that we have definite evidence for, we know is true. (50:09):
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Speaker1: There's stuff in here that is likely true, but there's stuff in here that's kind of speculative. (50:13):
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Speaker1: And for me, some of the speculative stuff is, you know, Crowley was in New York (50:20):
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Speaker1: City at the same time as this other spy was in New York City, (50:23):
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Speaker1: so they may have known each other. And it's like, yeah, who knows? (50:26):
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Speaker1: And so, While there's certainly evidence that Crowley was involved in the intelligence operations, (50:29):
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Speaker1: you know, some of the claims in the book I do take with a grain of salt because (50:39):
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Speaker1: it kind of falls into that more probably or maybe or speculative area. (50:43):
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Speaker1: So, you know, as a, again, as a statistician, I'm happy to live with uncertainty. Okay. (50:49):
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Speaker1: I buy this, this one, eh, you know. Yeah. Probably not. (50:55):
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Speaker2: So Crowley, well, Crowley's intelligence connections are always, (50:59):
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Speaker2: you know, a point of fascination and mystery. (51:03):
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Speaker2: I actually worked on that book for when I was working at Feral House at the (51:06):
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Speaker2: time. And I've had Richard Spence on this podcast. (51:09):
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Speaker2: And he had a lot of really interesting things to say. (51:12):
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Speaker2: But he was also convinced that Jack Parsons was a Russian agent, (51:14):
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Speaker2: which like a like a communist agent, which I can't really see, (51:17):
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Speaker2: given his libertarian bent. But yeah. (51:22):
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Speaker1: Yeah, I know there was some concern that he may have been an Israeli agent because there was (51:26):
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Speaker1: some intention that once his career, basically in the US, (51:32):
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Speaker1: was shut down by McCarthyism, the idea that his early interest in Kywinism, (51:36):
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Speaker1: but also just his interest in the occult and all of that, (51:43):
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Speaker1: led to his loss of security clearance and (51:45):
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Speaker1: therefore being basically kicked off of you know the companies that he's he (51:49):
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Speaker1: has helped founded like jpdl he was looking to relocate to israel and you know (51:53):
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Speaker1: just kind of be involved in the rocketry program but before he could move his (51:59):
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Speaker1: you know workshop blew up uh so um yeah well (52:02):
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Speaker2: Just to bring it back to fuller because fuller like you know parsons at neuberg's (52:08):
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Speaker2: already had a biography of him with the gene overton fuller one parsons has (52:12):
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Speaker2: had a couple uh in a tv show fuller you don't hear people talk about very much (52:15):
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Speaker2: And he's one of the most interesting ones, in my opinion. (52:20):
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Speaker2: And so I want to let me just give you an outline of what I know about him. (52:22):
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Speaker2: And please correct everything that's or fill in the blanks, if you will, the gaps. (52:25):
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Speaker2: From my understanding, he, you know, he was clearly enamored with Crowley at (52:30):
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Speaker2: the beginning, copying his writing style and things like Star in the West and (52:36):
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Speaker2: the stuff that he wrote for the Equinox. (52:41):
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Speaker2: And then he broke with Crowley. (52:42):
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Speaker2: I think if I'm remembering correctly, it was because of Crowley's bisexuality (52:46):
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Speaker2: and potentially his involvement with Neuburg and that came to light in the trial. (52:51):
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Speaker2: He didn't want to be associated with that. (52:54):
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Speaker2: Is all that about right so far? (52:56):
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Speaker1: Yeah, I mean, the aforementioned Rites of Aloysius was an event that drew the (52:59):
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Speaker1: attention of the London tabloids that tried to discredit Crowley as starting some pagan religion. (53:07):
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Speaker1: And one of the accusations that the press leveled was that George Cecil Jones, (53:14):
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Speaker1: who was one of the co-founders of the AA, was Crowley's lover. (53:22):
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Speaker1: And George Cecil Jones sued the paper for printing that lie. (53:27):
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Speaker2: So that was not true? (53:33):
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Speaker1: Not to my knowledge. (53:36):
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Speaker2: Okay, we don't know. (53:37):
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Speaker1: I mean, you know, Crowley was bisexual and queer, so anything's possible, (53:39):
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Speaker1: but Jones certainly denied it. (53:45):
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Speaker1: You know, he was married and had kids and a family and a reputation, (53:48):
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Speaker1: and he objected to this and went to trial. (53:51):
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Speaker1: And neither Jones nor the Lookingglass newspaper called Crowley as a witness, kind of curiously. (53:54):
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Speaker1: And Fuller was a bit taken aback that Crowley didn't volunteer to be a witness (54:05):
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Speaker1: and that had something to do with it so I don't know it was so much the bisexuality as it was (54:11):
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Speaker1: Fuller not wanting his name to get dragged into the press in connection with (54:21):
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Speaker1: Crowley in some way because you thought that would be a career killer and the (54:25):
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Speaker1: thing is the upshot of that court case I think kind of speaks to that issue (54:31):
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Speaker1: is that the case was dismissed, (54:37):
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Speaker1: and the judge decided that regardless of whether what they wrote was true or not, (54:40):
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Speaker1: that Jones basically deserved what he got for hanging out with such a notorious (54:46):
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Speaker1: character as Alistair Perlman. (54:50):
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Speaker1: So I think that was like, whoa, if you hang out with Fuller, (54:52):
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Speaker1: people can say whatever they want about you. (54:55):
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Speaker1: That was kind of the upshot of that case, kind of amazingly enough. (54:57):
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Speaker2: It's interesting that, yeah, right, and that has continued. I think it's interesting (55:02):
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Speaker2: that that's interesting given what later happened with Fuller, (55:06):
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Speaker2: where he more, if I, I mean, I don't know about the exact legal definition, (55:10):
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Speaker2: But he essentially committed treason against the UK and going to work with Hitler (55:14):
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Speaker2: and bringing them military information and then also became involved with Oswald (55:19):
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Speaker2: Mosley and the British Union of Fascists, (55:24):
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Speaker2: which is if you don't want your name dragged into the mud, (55:26):
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Speaker2: that's kind of odd behavior for somebody in the middle of a war, you know. (55:30):
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Speaker1: Yeah well that was the thing was the that (55:34):
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Speaker1: actually was the connection that kind of had this crowley (55:38):
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Speaker1: stuff brought up in fact that he was involved with bosley and the british union (55:41):
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Speaker1: of fascists and then this a competing fascist group that published a newspaper (55:45):
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Speaker1: called the fascist actually rediscovered his connections to crowley and kind (55:51):
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Speaker1: of plastered it in their newsletter as a front page story (55:55):
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Speaker1: and for was actually preparing to sue this (55:59):
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Speaker1: these people for publishing this stuff and he was counseled you (56:02):
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Speaker1: know no one reads this crap you know it's just but you know if you if you make (56:06):
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Speaker1: a big deal out of it you're just going to draw attention to this so he just (56:09):
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Speaker1: kind of let the story kind of die rather than drawing attention to it so but (56:13):
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Speaker1: yeah so it's that that's how the cruelly stuff came to haunt him you know in (56:17):
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Speaker1: 1936 you know 25 years later yeah (56:22):
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Speaker2: It's odd also that (56:25):
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Speaker1: But one (56:27):
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Speaker2: Thing that has baffled me about Fuller is that even despite the fact that he (56:28):
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Speaker2: was involved with Hitler and was boosting Mosley, he never lost his military rank. (56:34):
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Speaker2: They didn't promote him when they probably did all of the other same people (56:39):
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Speaker2: of his status and rank and age. (56:43):
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Speaker2: He was never promoted, but they didn't kick him out of the military. (56:45):
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Speaker2: I don't think they took any type of security clearance away from him, (56:48):
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Speaker2: despite the fact that he's working with the enemy. (56:51):
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Speaker1: There were people who were involved in those sorts of things that did experience more discipline. (56:53):
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Speaker1: The one kind of oversight that Fuller did experience was that when World War II started, (57:02):
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Speaker1: a lot of retired military personnel were called back up to help with the war, (57:09):
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Speaker1: and he was overlooked for that. (57:15):
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Speaker1: So there certainly were some professional repercussions because of that. (57:17):
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Speaker2: It seems kind of like a slap on the wrist, which raises questions. (57:23):
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Speaker2: I mean, you think he would have come in for more disciplinary action, (57:30):
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Speaker2: as you put it. One wonders what was going on there. (57:34):
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Speaker2: So let's talk about Victor Neuburg because he's been written about his, (57:38):
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Speaker2: you know, his, his, his relationship with Crowley is iconic. (57:42):
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Speaker2: They're working in the desert is, and in the 10th day there is iconic. (57:46):
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Speaker2: So he's, he's one that is more broadly known, but usually just as a kind of (57:50):
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Speaker2: like a supporting character in Crowley's play is how people see him. (57:56):
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Speaker2: So talk about Neuburg and what your impression was of him coming out of your research for this book. (58:00):
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Speaker1: Yeah, I think one of the things that comes out in Friendship and Doubt is this (58:06):
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Speaker1: idea that challenges the typical narrative that Jean Overton Fuller took in (58:13):
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Speaker1: her book, The Magical Bilemma of Victor Neuberge. (58:20):
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Speaker1: And Jeanne Everton-Foller was unrelated to JFC-Foller, but she paints this picture (58:22):
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Speaker1: of Neuberg being this, you know, shattered and hollowed out shell of a man after (58:29):
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Speaker1: Crowley was done with them. (58:34):
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Speaker1: And he, you know, it was never the same. (58:35):
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Speaker1: And then he, he had under his desk for the rest of his life, (58:38):
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Speaker1: the fear that Crowley would knock on his door at some point. (58:41):
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Speaker1: And the fact of the matter is, in the later years, when Crowley signed on to (58:44):
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Speaker1: the Mandrake Press to publish some of his works, (58:51):
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Speaker1: they put out this book called The Legend of Alistair Crowley, (58:54):
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Speaker1: where the editor, Pierre Stevenson, (58:57):
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Speaker1: collected Crowley's press clippings, basically, reviews of his poetry and so (59:00):
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Speaker1: on, but also documented this sort of systematic attack on his character and (59:04):
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Speaker1: the kind of the destroying of his reputation, (59:10):
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Speaker1: calling it a you know, a campaign of vilification, you know, unseen in modern times. (59:12):
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Speaker1: And when that book came out, Victor Neuburg wound up reviewing it for the Freethinker (59:19):
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Speaker1: magazine, saying that this is true. (59:26):
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Speaker1: Crowley was, you know, had a lot to say and he's worth checking out. (59:29):
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Speaker1: And then when, you know, a year later, Magic and Theory in Practice came out, (59:33):
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Speaker2: You know, Victor Neubert, once again, you know, (59:38):
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Speaker1: Wrote for, you know, the newspaper he was working for did a review of magic (59:40):
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Speaker1: in theory and practice saying that, you know, Alistair Crowley may not be a (59:44):
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Speaker1: nice man to know, but his teachings on magic are very valuable and are worth, you know, looking at. (59:47):
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Speaker1: So that does not sound like the behavior of someone who is hiding in fear that (59:55):
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Speaker1: Crowley might knock on his doors today. (59:59):
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Speaker1: So I think kind of setting kind of that story to rest, (01:00:01):
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Speaker1: I mean, I kind of feel like Gene Overton had a great deal of fondness for Victor (01:00:06):
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Speaker1: Neuberg and kind of had this, (01:00:12):
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Speaker1: you know, transferred some outrage on Victor Neuberg's behalf onto Crowley and (01:00:15):
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Speaker1: kind of painted this kind of exaggerated picture. (01:00:18):
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Speaker1: And I just kind of hope that by sharing some of this information, (01:00:21):
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Speaker1: some of Victor Neuberg's autonomy is kind of restored. (01:00:24):
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Speaker0: And I just wanted to add, too, I think that's one of the unique things about (01:00:29):
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Speaker0: Friendship and Doubt and Richard's work is that Victor Neuberg really is painted (01:00:33):
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Speaker0: as a whole human being and gets a voice through this work in a way that hasn't (01:00:38):
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Speaker0: really been done before. (01:00:43):
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Speaker1: Well, the thing is, you know, the, you know, Victor Neuberg's biography, (01:00:45):
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Speaker1: you know, Magic of the Lama, Victor Neuberg, was published in the 60s. (01:00:49):
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Speaker1: And there were two JFC4 biographies published. (01:00:54):
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Speaker2: Oh, I didn't even realize there were. Like in the 70s. i didn't even realize (01:00:57):
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Speaker2: there were bios of jfc fuller (01:01:00):
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Speaker1: Yeah there was one called jfc fuller military (01:01:01):
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Speaker1: strategist and another one was (01:01:05):
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Speaker1: called bony floor i believe um but those both came out in the 70s and the funny (01:01:07):
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Speaker1: thing is though they completely skirt this issue of i mean not completely but (01:01:12):
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Speaker1: they give very very very little space to the occult and magical stuff it's kind of like they kind of that (01:01:17):
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Speaker2: And maybe the publishers are part of this, (01:01:26):
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Speaker1: But I think the people who are writing this are more interested in Fuller as (01:01:28):
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Speaker1: a military person, not as an occultist. (01:01:32):
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Speaker1: And I think that also happens to sit fine with his estate, who kind of wants to focus on that. (01:01:35):
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Speaker1: And I don't want to put words in their mouth, but there just hasn't been a whole (01:01:41):
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Speaker1: lot of attention paid to Fuller's occult leanings. (01:01:46):
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Speaker1: And for a distinguished military person, that may be fine with the people who (01:01:50):
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Speaker1: are trying to carry on his name. (01:01:58):
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Speaker1: So I'm kind of hoping that this book being published for Oxford University Press (01:02:01):
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Speaker1: kind of legitimizes asking these questions about Ford and kind of saying, (01:02:06):
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Speaker1: hey, here's where his head was at when he was just getting started in his first writings. (01:02:10):
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Speaker1: And you can then kind of, you know, kind of graph this and kind of see where (01:02:15):
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Speaker1: his thinking evolved from this very early stage. (01:02:20):
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Speaker1: So I think it's valuable and maybe it will, you know, allow other people to (01:02:24):
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Speaker1: kind of ask small questions and look a little bit farther into the trajectory (01:02:28):
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Speaker1: of J.F.C. Fuller's career and his thinking. (01:02:32):
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Speaker2: Right. If I remember correctly, I mean, he was writing, but he was still writing (01:02:34):
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Speaker2: books about Kabbalah late in his life. And he had military theories based on (01:02:37):
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Speaker2: Kabbalah, which is pretty wild. Yeah. (01:02:42):
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Speaker1: I did get into that in the book as well. (01:02:46):
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Speaker2: Amazing. Yeah, I think the image that most people know about Victor Neuber, (01:02:48):
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Speaker2: you know, just maybe a few snippets is the desert in Algeria. (01:02:52):
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Speaker2: And then there's, of course, the story of him in Atlantis bookshops and Crowley (01:02:56):
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Speaker2: comes in and he's hiding and terrified that Crowley's there. But who was he really? (01:03:00):
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Speaker2: And you said a more full version of him as a human being emerged. (01:03:05):
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Speaker1: Yeah, Victor Neuberg was born to a rather wealthy family who imported ruttans (01:03:10):
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Speaker1: and were goods from the Far East. (01:03:17):
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Speaker1: His father abandoned the family when he was still pretty young, (01:03:19):
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Speaker1: and so he was raised by his mom and aunts. (01:03:23):
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Speaker1: He was a sensitive child. He became a vegetarian while he was still in grade (01:03:27):
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Speaker1: school and had this interest in poetry. (01:03:31):
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Speaker1: One day, stopping by one of local high street bookshops he came across a copy (01:03:35):
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Speaker1: of the free thinker magazine and that kind of kind of set the tone he was first contribution to (01:03:40):
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Speaker2: You know the (01:03:47):
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Speaker1: Literature was a poem called wale yehovah where it's basically as i kind of (01:03:48):
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Speaker1: jokingly say the title of that is latin for sia god it's him just kind of saying (01:03:54):
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Speaker1: that he is you know shrugging off all the baggage of his Jewish upbringing and, (01:03:59):
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Speaker1: you know, taking on the free thought movement. (01:04:06):
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Speaker1: It's kind of interesting because there's a similar story with Fuller where he (01:04:09):
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Speaker1: published this article in the Agnostic Journal, basically, calling for the end (01:04:12):
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Speaker1: of compulsory church attendance for military personnel. (01:04:18):
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Speaker1: And even though Fuller was like 25 years old at this time, he begged his mom, (01:04:22):
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Speaker1: don't show my dad, because his dad was a preacher. (01:04:26):
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Speaker1: He didn't want his dad to know that he was, you know, again, (01:04:29):
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Speaker1: and experiencing this apostasy. (01:04:32):
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Speaker1: But Neuber did the same sort of thing. (01:04:34):
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Speaker2: So not to interrupt, but it sounds like Black Magician Daddy issues are a tale older than time. (01:04:36):
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Speaker1: Yeah, yeah. Well, I mean, I think that's something that holds true for all three (01:04:42):
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Speaker1: of them because, you know, Crowley had the preacher dad who he actually kind (01:04:46):
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Speaker1: of idolized and in many ways kind of wound up emulating and that, (01:04:50):
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Speaker1: you know, he was the head of a very obscure religious group and he traveled (01:04:55):
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Speaker1: around handing the book of the law to anyone who would listen. (01:05:01):
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Speaker1: So, you know, not too different on the surface level. (01:05:04):
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Speaker1: Although the beliefs behind both dad and son were quite different. (01:05:08):
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Speaker1: But yeah, because Neuber came from a real wealthy family. (01:05:14):
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Speaker1: One of his uncles paid for him to go to Trinity College, Cambridge, (01:05:19):
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Speaker1: which was where Crowley went. (01:05:22):
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Speaker1: And there he started the Cambridge University Free Thought Association. (01:05:25):
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Speaker1: And the idea there was to kind of host talks as an opportunity for Crowley to (01:05:31):
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Speaker1: come down to campus and give lectures and presumably recruit bright young students (01:05:36):
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Speaker1: into the AA group that he had started. (01:05:41):
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Speaker1: And yeah, then he got all caught up in the magic that Crowley was doing, (01:05:45):
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Speaker1: not only doing the vision and the voice stuff that we referred to earlier but (01:05:50):
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Speaker1: the Paris working and so on. (01:05:54):
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Speaker1: And there was an incident where neuber was having an affair with one of the (01:05:58):
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Speaker1: dancers from the rights of elusis and her husband winds up filing for divorce (01:06:05):
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Speaker1: naming victor neuberge in the suit (01:06:10):
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Speaker1: and the the wife winds up committing suicide on the heels (01:06:14):
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Speaker2: Of all of this (01:06:17):
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Speaker1: And um that that certainly was a blow to victor neuberge and he goes very quiet (01:06:18):
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Speaker1: for a few years after that he's also (01:06:25):
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Speaker1: in the military serving at that time in world war one (01:06:28):
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Speaker1: comes out and once again you know his wealthy family (01:06:31):
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Speaker1: kind of bails them out says all you want to do is poetry stuff here we'll buy (01:06:34):
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Speaker1: you a printing press here you can go live in your aunt's cottage and staining (01:06:37):
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Speaker1: and you know publish you know these hand press you know books you know the for (01:06:40):
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Speaker1: you and your friends which is you know what he did for the next decade before (01:06:45):
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Speaker1: he began working for you know carrying out his work in poetry and discovering poets through, (01:06:49):
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Speaker1: you know, the newspapers and, you know, again, finding Dylan Thomas, (01:06:55):
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Speaker1: but he actually wasn't dying forever young, like age 40. (01:06:59):
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Speaker1: So, you know, his life, again, was kind of tragically cut short. (01:07:02):
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Speaker2: How did he die? (01:07:06):
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Speaker1: Oh, gosh, I don't recall offhand. I'm sorry. I should know that. (01:07:08):
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Speaker2: Was it cancer or something? (01:07:12):
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Speaker1: Something like that. Yeah, I died that one of a bunch of cats. (01:07:14):
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Speaker2: Okay. Okay. Okay. So talk about Neuberg as a magician then outside of just Crowley's (01:07:17):
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Speaker2: orbit. What do you think his own personal magical dilemma was, if you will? (01:07:26):
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Speaker1: That's, that's kind of hard to say because (01:07:31):
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Speaker1: You know, for a magician, if we don't have their diaries of their records, (01:07:35):
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Speaker1: we don't really know what they were doing. (01:07:40):
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Speaker1: And for Neuber, what we know of his workings are things that we have, (01:07:44):
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Speaker1: like we have his diary from when he was doing retirement at Crow's House Boleskine. (01:07:49):
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Speaker1: We have the vision of the voice and we have the records of the Paris working (01:07:54):
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Speaker1: or the rites of Elusive, in which he was a dancer. (01:07:58):
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Speaker1: I guess that was one of the things he did. he would, you know, (01:08:02):
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Speaker1: go do this ecstatic sort of trance dance sort of thing. (01:08:06):
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Speaker1: But after parting ways with Crowley, we don't really know. (01:08:10):
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Speaker1: You know, perhaps somewhere in the family archives there was some evidence of (01:08:15):
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Speaker1: whether he did or did not engage in magical practice in terms of his published output. (01:08:18):
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Speaker1: You know, unlike Fuller, where he wrote quite explicitly about occult subjects, (01:08:23):
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Speaker1: We don't see that happening with Neuberg's poetry so much. (01:08:28):
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Speaker1: But those articles where he comes and defends the legend of Alistair Crowley (01:08:34):
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Speaker1: or magic and theory in practice in 1929, 1930. (01:08:40):
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Speaker1: So that kind of stands out, that he would still have those opinions, (01:08:44):
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Speaker1: their favorable opinions. (01:08:50):
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Speaker1: So one wonders what practice, if any, he continued. Hmm. (01:08:51):
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Speaker2: So judging from the title of the book, it sounds like there may have been some (01:08:57):
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Speaker2: type of a triangle between Crowley, not necessarily romantic, (01:09:01):
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Speaker2: but triangle relationship triangle between Crowley, Neuberg and Fuller. (01:09:04):
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Speaker2: And I'm curious what was happening there. (01:09:08):
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Speaker1: Yeah, I mean, I think the triangle was the agnosticism. I mean, (01:09:11):
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Speaker1: that's literally how they wound up meeting. (01:09:15):
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Speaker0: Hence the pun, doubt. Friendship in doubt. (01:09:18):
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Speaker2: Very good. (01:09:24):
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Speaker1: But also just that whole idea that her friendship was kind of short-lived. (01:09:24):
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Speaker1: And so, you know, her friendship did fall into a period of doubt as well as (01:09:28):
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Speaker1: the years went on, the short number of years who were friends. (01:09:33):
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Speaker1: So, yeah, a little bit of a double entendre there. But yeah, I mean, (01:09:37):
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Speaker1: Crowley's works were being distributed by the Rationalist Press Association, (01:09:41):
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Speaker1: which is how JFC Fuller in India, where he was stationed at the military, (01:09:47):
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Speaker1: learned of Crowley and this contest for the best essay on his works and wrote (01:09:53):
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Speaker1: to Crowley to participate in this contest. (01:09:59):
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Speaker1: And that's how Fuller met Crowley. (01:10:01):
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Speaker1: Then Crowley read this poem from Victor Neuberg in that same journal, (01:10:05):
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Speaker1: the Agnostic Journal, and sought him out. (01:10:09):
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Speaker1: Again, they met at the funeral of the editor of this journal. (01:10:13):
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Speaker1: Crowley wanted to buy the magazine from his widow. (01:10:18):
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Speaker1: Yeah, (01:10:22):
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Speaker2: And kind of (01:10:22):
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Speaker1: Turn it into his own magical occult journal. That didn't happen, (01:10:22):
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Speaker1: so he started the equinox, you know, but it was just, it was this whole agnostic (01:10:26):
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Speaker1: movement that brought them together, and these ideas of agnosticism and evidence-based (01:10:30):
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Speaker1: approach to civics, basically, (01:10:38):
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Speaker1: you know, leads to these ideas of, like, scientific illuminism that Crowley (01:10:41):
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Speaker1: puts forth, the idea that you can do magic in this methodical and scientific (01:10:45):
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Speaker1: way, and that the equinox had on its masthead the method of science, the aim of religion. (01:10:50):
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Speaker1: But also just things like starting your own journal or starting your own publishing (01:10:56):
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Speaker1: company, which was something that the agnostics were doing to great effect. (01:11:00):
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Speaker1: So a lot of these things that Crowley or Neuberg did at this time were very (01:11:05):
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Speaker1: much following the mold of what was established from their familiarity with the agnostic movement. (01:11:09):
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Speaker2: I did not know that at all. That's really interesting. (01:11:16):
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Speaker1: Yeah, that's why the book's cool. No one's looked at it before. (01:11:20):
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Speaker1: So there's these breadcrumbs there in his writings, but no one's actually connected (01:11:23):
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Speaker1: the dots, which was kind of the fun thing about a book like this, (01:11:29):
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Speaker1: rather doing something expansive like biography. (01:11:33):
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Speaker1: This is saying, let's look at one very specific thing and follow all the threads through. (01:11:36):
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Speaker1: And it just gives us a very different perspective on things. (01:11:42):
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Speaker2: Would you say that in following those threads, through you came to any specific (01:11:46):
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Speaker2: conclusions about your subject matter (01:11:50):
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Speaker1: Well primarily that's the ideas of agnosticism and rationalism and free thought (01:11:52):
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Speaker1: are kind of baked into the system from the very beginning and i think having (01:11:58):
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Speaker1: a greater appreciation of of that (01:12:03):
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Speaker1: is has been very informative for me that's really for others yeah (01:12:07):
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Speaker0: And i think it's particularly interesting seeing the greater discourse within (01:12:11):
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Speaker0: the occult sphere, but specifically within Thelema and Thelemic communities. (01:12:16):
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Speaker0: It seems like the pendulum swings different ways depending on what era it is. (01:12:21):
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Speaker0: But right now, it seems like the popular stance is to have a hard-line polytheistic (01:12:27):
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Speaker0: take on the holy books of Thelema. (01:12:32):
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Speaker0: And I've even seen people write on the internet that you can't be an atheist (01:12:35):
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Speaker0: or agnostic into Thelemite, which just blows my mind. (01:12:40):
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Speaker0: Not saying you have to be, right? (01:12:43):
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Speaker0: There's room for a myriad of different interpretations of divinity but, (01:12:45):
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Speaker0: it's it's really throwing the baby out with the bath water (01:12:50):
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Speaker0: in that it's not acknowledging the source of (01:12:53):
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Speaker0: a lot of these ideas of scientific luminism and doubt and skepticism and free (01:12:56):
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Speaker0: thought which as richard says is there from the very beginning so it's really (01:13:00):
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Speaker0: refreshing to open that conversation back up yeah and take it away from what's (01:13:05):
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Speaker0: narrow tick tock i don't know ouroborist thing happening. (01:13:10):
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Speaker2: Well, let's talk about that because I think, and let's talk about that in the (01:13:14):
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Speaker2: context of 2024, because I think personally, for me, the idea of scientific (01:13:17):
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Speaker2: illuminism and the aim of religion, the method of science, (01:13:22):
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Speaker2: not the Scientology version, but the aim of religion, the method of science, (01:13:26):
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Speaker2: which Hubbard stole, but this idea of empirical investigation of techniques (01:13:29):
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Speaker2: that people have been using throughout human history to get into bizarre altered (01:13:34):
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Speaker2: states of consciousness and however we want to describe that in a way that normies can understand. (01:13:38):
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Speaker2: Is this is we're in (01:13:44):
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Speaker2: a cultural moment where that has a chance to really (01:13:47):
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Speaker2: do a lot of good and not just (01:13:50):
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Speaker2: do good that's very vague but i think there's space to slot that back into the (01:13:53):
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Speaker2: the cultural conversation because you can see i mean crowley in a way i think (01:13:57):
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Speaker2: was his own greatest marketing friend in saying calling it magic because and (01:14:03):
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Speaker2: being such a character because now people we know about him. (01:14:09):
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Speaker2: He would have been forgotten otherwise if he hadn't been so bombastic. (01:14:12):
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Speaker2: But at the same time, it's so easy to lose the core of his ideas, (01:14:15):
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Speaker2: which are not even necessarily spiritual or religious. (01:14:20):
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Speaker2: And this idea of scientific illuminism is, I think, one of the most interesting (01:14:24):
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Speaker2: ideas or the most interesting trajectories for human thought. (01:14:28):
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Speaker2: And you can see people in the public discourse, and this is not a voucher for (01:14:31):
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Speaker2: these people, but I'm just saying, you can see people in the public discourse (01:14:36):
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Speaker2: like Sam Harris or Jordan Peterson, again, it's not a voucher, who could, (01:14:39):
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Speaker2: where that is clearly missing in the cultural dialogue. (01:14:44):
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Speaker2: And people are kind of grinding on, they're back to new atheism, (01:14:48):
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Speaker2: they're grinding on that, they're grinding, well, maybe religion is okay, (01:14:51):
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Speaker2: but now that's getting wrapped up in kind of right-wing interpretations. (01:14:53):
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Speaker2: And you can see the culture wrestling with that meeting point as it always has. (01:14:57):
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Speaker2: And I think that, you know, in a lot of ways, Crowley figured this out. (01:15:02):
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Speaker2: And people of his tradition figured this out quite a while ago. (01:15:06):
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Speaker2: And in situating it the way you're talking about as part of the free thought (01:15:09):
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Speaker2: movement or influenced by it, that immediately makes me think of, (01:15:13):
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Speaker2: well, where can these ideas slot back into the mainstream cultural dialogue (01:15:17):
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Speaker2: now? And I think there's space for it. (01:15:20):
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Speaker1: Yeah, actually funny you should mention that because another book that I have (01:15:23):
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Speaker1: coming out next fall is from inner traditions press is going to be called Mind Over Magic. (01:15:26):
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Speaker1: And it's me writing from the perspective as a psychologist, looking back on (01:15:33):
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Speaker1: research, actual peer-reviewed experimental studies. (01:15:39):
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Speaker1: So not like theories that are just abstract, but things that are actually backed up by data. (01:15:43):
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Speaker1: And talking about how studies throughout the history of psychology inform the (01:15:50):
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Speaker1: sorts of things that magicians and witches and pagans and other sorts of occult-type people do. (01:15:56):
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Speaker1: Not in an effort to kind of reduce it all to saying it's all psychology, (01:16:03):
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Speaker1: but just recognizing that psychology is part of anything that we do. (01:16:08):
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Speaker1: And so kind of saying what kind of evidence is there to kind of help understand (01:16:13):
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Speaker1: when we're doing these weird experiments to kind of, you know, (01:16:18):
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Speaker1: mess up our state of consciousness and, you know, what is going on? (01:16:21):
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Speaker1: What are some of the functional things happening and what are some of the benefits? (01:16:25):
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Speaker1: What are some of the mechanisms that are that make that happen and so on? (01:16:30):
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Speaker1: So, you know, so maybe that will kind of slot in. We'll see how that book is received. (01:16:35):
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Speaker0: And the thing I really love about this particular book is Richard has the experience (01:16:39):
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Speaker0: of a practitioner and a scientist and someone with a PhD in psychology and a statistician. (01:16:44):
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Speaker0: And so I never actually mentioned this, but I actually have a background in (01:16:49):
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Speaker0: science as well. I used to do physics. (01:16:52):
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Speaker0: That issue aside, but I really appreciate how that has allowed this to explore (01:16:56):
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Speaker0: to the very edges of science. Like, what does science actually say? (01:17:02):
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Speaker0: And it says there's something there. And Richard allows you, (01:17:07):
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Speaker0: the reader, to think how you want to think about that. (01:17:11):
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Speaker0: But he looks at it at a as unbiased of possible kind of way and a richness to (01:17:14):
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Speaker0: his perspective on this idea that there is something there. (01:17:20):
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Speaker0: There is a shared human experience around these different altered states and (01:17:24):
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Speaker0: stuff like that. And I think that's going to be a really cool book. (01:17:28):
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Speaker0: I'm super excited about that one. And I am also in that book. (01:17:31):
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Speaker1: So that'll be fun. (01:17:37):
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Speaker2: You said that comes out later this year? Next fall. Next fall. Okay. (01:17:38):
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Speaker2: 2025. Awesome. Well, I definitely have to have you back on for that one. (01:17:43):
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Speaker2: But I actually don't know, and I'm really curious, because I... (01:17:46):
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Speaker2: I'm off in my own world. I don't really look at the scientific research on magic (01:17:52):
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Speaker2: because for me, it's real. That's good enough. But I should know. (01:17:55):
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Speaker2: Absolutely. And I've done a lot of research and I've done a lot of looking at (01:17:59):
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Speaker2: the yoga and meditation literature, but I actually have never looked at the (01:18:02):
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Speaker2: whatever you would call the Psy research literature. (01:18:05):
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Speaker2: I know Mitch Horowitz has a lot, but what does science say about this stuff? (01:18:08):
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Speaker2: I actually don't know. Where's the line know (01:18:14):
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Speaker1: Yeah well the thing is there's not a lot of psychological (01:18:16):
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Speaker1: research that's specifically done on magic (01:18:20):
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Speaker1: per se for my and the (01:18:23):
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Speaker1: thing is i guess sort of my villain origin story is that i got into psychology (01:18:27):
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Speaker1: you know as as an occultist thinking i want to see what psychology has to say (01:18:32):
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Speaker1: about this and then i was kind of disappointed to find out that there isn't (01:18:36):
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Speaker1: some you know theory you know again, evidence-based theory that supports this. (01:18:40):
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Speaker1: I mean, of course, there's every occultist's favorite, Carl Jung, (01:18:45):
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Speaker1: in his theories, but that kind of falls in that sort of school of thought sort (01:18:49):
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Speaker1: of area where it's a useful paradigm from which to practice psychology, (01:18:54):
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Speaker1: but it's not something that is amenable to scientific research and being falsifiable (01:19:00):
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Speaker1: in the Karl Popper sort of sense um and (01:19:06):
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Speaker2: It doesn't go far enough from for magicians either it's kind of like this no (01:19:10):
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Speaker2: man's land it's helpful culturally but kind of a trap i think (01:19:13):
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Speaker1: Yeah yeah so um and that's i guess that's kind (01:19:16):
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Speaker1: of what i was trying to clarify when i said you know it's the visible because kind (01:19:19):
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Speaker1: of focusing on actual scientific research but it's it (01:19:22):
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Speaker1: took me a long time because i kind of went well okay so it's like i'm (01:19:25):
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Speaker1: here now in in this grad school program and it's (01:19:28):
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Speaker1: not really telling me what i wanted to do so i'll become a social psychologist (01:19:31):
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Speaker1: you know that looks at observable behavior rather than speculating on what's (01:19:37):
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Speaker1: happening inside the mind since that's something that psychology doesn't seem (01:19:41):
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Speaker1: to be and i'm interested in tackling (01:19:46):
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Speaker2: But looking back on, (01:19:50):
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Speaker1: You know, on this 30 years later or so, there's never less pieces there. (01:19:51):
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Speaker1: One example that kind of springs immediately to mind is in marketing research. (01:19:57):
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Speaker1: It's been very well demonstrated that people see their possessions as kind of (01:20:02):
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Speaker1: extensions of themselves. (01:20:07):
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Speaker1: And to me, once you start looking at that research, that slots right in with (01:20:09):
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Speaker1: discussion of the magician and their weapons. I mean, the dagger is literally (01:20:13):
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Speaker1: the representation of your intellect. (01:20:18):
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Speaker1: The cup is the representation of the emotions. (01:20:21):
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Speaker1: So when you're using these magical weapons that's traditional in ceremonial (01:20:25):
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Speaker1: magic, you are symbolically manipulating your states of consciousness. (01:20:31):
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Speaker1: But the research shows that yes, we do actually perceive our things as extensions of ourselves. (01:20:37):
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Speaker1: So this isn't just symbolically we're talking here, but this is something that (01:20:43):
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Speaker1: we actually psychologically do. (01:20:47):
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Speaker1: And so for me, it's more pulling together these ideas that kind of connect to (01:20:49):
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Speaker1: things that we do, even though they're not necessarily explicitly about magic. (01:20:54):
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Speaker1: There are studies that talk about going through moderate trials to join a group, (01:20:58):
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Speaker1: for instance, and that kind of ties into the experience of initiation, (01:21:05):
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Speaker1: but the idea that too severe a trial then crosses into hazing and kind of can (01:21:09):
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Speaker1: create resentment toward the group. (01:21:14):
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Speaker1: These aren't necessarily about occult groups, but it is about initiation. (01:21:16):
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Speaker1: And a lot of studies on ritual tend to look at kind of the social aspect of (01:21:22):
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Speaker1: ritual, kind of that it kind of enforces normative behavior or that people doing (01:21:29):
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Speaker1: like group ritual tend to experience some kind of synchrony. (01:21:34):
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Speaker1: But my focus is more about what's happening to the individual rather than that (01:21:37):
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Speaker1: kind of the social level. (01:21:43):
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Speaker0: I'm chuckling because I'm remembering what the cover of the book looks like. (01:21:45):
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Speaker2: Okay. (01:21:50):
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Speaker0: It's a lovely cover. They did a great job with it. It's just very much not in (01:21:50):
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Speaker0: line with the contents of the book. (01:21:57):
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Speaker0: I mean, Richard is a serious researcher and a ceremonial magician, (01:21:59):
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Speaker0: and the book cover looks like a pop witchcraft book. (01:22:03):
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Speaker1: That's good. (01:22:08):
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Speaker2: I'm trying to reach a whole wider audience. (01:22:09):
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Speaker1: I'm kind of known as the Thalamite Crowley guy. And this is actually, (01:22:13):
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Speaker1: I very consciously wrote this saying this applies to whether you're a Phelomite, (01:22:17):
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Speaker1: whether you're, you know, Rosicrucian, whether you're a Wiccan, (01:22:21):
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Speaker1: whether you're a Freemason, whatever. (01:22:24):
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Speaker1: We're all doing these practices and this applies to, you know, (01:22:26):
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Speaker1: anyone who's doing this regardless of what their specific path is. (01:22:31):
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Speaker0: Yeah, the cover's really cute. I like it. It's just at odds with the content. (01:22:34):
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Speaker0: There's a little bit of tension there, but it's cute. I like it a lot. I hope it sells. (01:22:39):
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Speaker2: Hopefully, yeah, hopefully it sells very well. (01:22:43):
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Speaker0: Yeah, I hope so, too. (01:22:46):
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Speaker2: What what would you say your individual experience have been experiences have (01:22:47):
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Speaker2: been of the Thelemic world in your time in it and how it's changed, adapted to the culture? (01:22:55):
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Speaker2: Obviously, it's, you know, of course, gone through a lot of upheavals as over the last century. (01:23:00):
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Speaker2: But how have you it sounds like you're both actively involved. (01:23:05):
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Speaker2: How is it now versus let's say 20 years ago or just in your own how have you (01:23:10):
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Speaker2: seen it change during your your tenure within it oh (01:23:16):
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Speaker0: My gosh it's a huge change i guess i can i can start, (01:23:19):
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Speaker0: give you a chance to have a drink or something so in 10 (01:23:24):
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Speaker0: i would say 15 20 years ago i was i (01:23:29):
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Speaker0: would say it's a very different landscape than what it is today a (01:23:32):
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Speaker0: lot of great good changes a lot of positive changes a (01:23:35):
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Speaker0: lot of not so good changes you know (01:23:38):
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Speaker0: 20 years ago organizations i (01:23:41):
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Speaker0: would say like the otto but other occult groups that i was (01:23:45):
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Speaker0: marginally involved with were very (01:23:48):
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Speaker0: male dominated extremely male-dominated it (01:23:51):
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Speaker0: was a very tough space to be in i'm just (01:23:53):
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Speaker0: sorry there's just a lot to unpack there it's it's tough for a lot of reasons (01:23:58):
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Speaker0: and i think now fast forward 20 years we are seeing especially in orders like (01:24:02):
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Speaker0: the oto a lot more women a lot more women in leadership there was a time on (01:24:08):
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Speaker0: the east coast that all of the local groups masters were actually, (01:24:13):
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Speaker0: well and so we're seeing a lot more diversity and with that diversity comes, (01:24:18):
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Speaker0: different fresh perspectives on things it's it's a it's a cool place to be and also. (01:24:22):
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Speaker0: And and so so that's cool right so there's (01:24:29):
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Speaker0: a movement i would say towards more diversity in (01:24:32):
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Speaker0: general in our local communities but i think (01:24:35):
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Speaker0: the downside of one of the trends i'm seeing is (01:24:38):
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Speaker0: with the advent of tiktok and (01:24:41):
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Speaker0: all of these social media platforms it has (01:24:44):
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Speaker0: really been crystallizing profound amounts of disinformation and also completely (01:24:48):
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Speaker0: wrecking people's attention spans and i'm seeing people only getting their information (01:24:53):
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Speaker0: from tiktok or tumblr or twitter and they don't read a single book whereas back in the day you had to try. (01:25:00):
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Speaker2: Really hard to get stuff and (01:25:05):
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Speaker0: Not much was on the internet actually i'll get (01:25:07):
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Speaker0: too far into my own story but i one of (01:25:10):
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Speaker0: the reasons i did start to brush shoulders with various occult groups is (01:25:13):
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Speaker0: because i had books and that's the only way i was able to get access to (01:25:16):
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Speaker0: them i never joined the groups but i made lots of friends in them blah blah (01:25:19):
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Speaker0: blah but now it's like people watch tiktok and like wow i know all about alistair (01:25:23):
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Speaker0: crowley and then they pronounce it crowley and they come on and then they just (01:25:29):
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Speaker0: have And they're literally regurgitating satanic panic era stuff without any (01:25:32):
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Speaker0: critical thought into it. (01:25:38):
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Speaker0: And I mourn the fact that there's not more intellectual curiosity. (01:25:39):
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Speaker0: It seems like a lot of people are so profoundly scared. (01:25:43):
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Speaker0: And so they cling to their TikTok as some sort of like, and social media as (01:25:47):
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Speaker0: well, it's some sort of like dark klepothic thing going on that people cling (01:25:52):
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Speaker0: to like it's a life raft when in reality, it's dragging them further down. (01:25:56):
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Speaker2: Hmm. (01:26:00):
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Speaker1: I think in some ways that kind of ties back to i said that kind of earlier in the talk about how (01:26:02):
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Speaker1: having a nuanced sort of view of things used to be seen as someone who again (01:26:07):
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Speaker1: was knowledgeable and respectable and it would actually take some time to think (01:26:15):
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Speaker1: about this but we now live in an era where (01:26:19):
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Speaker1: everyone's expected to have a strong opinion about everything right and most (01:26:22):
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Speaker1: people don't really have enough knowledge about many topics to have an opinion. (01:26:27):
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Speaker1: I certainly don't have enough knowledge about everything in the world to have (01:26:31):
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Speaker1: an opinion about everything. (01:26:34):
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Speaker1: But it seems like this thing that drives social media is having a strong opinion (01:26:36):
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Speaker1: and being very combative about people who have a different opinion. (01:26:42):
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Speaker1: And there is no room anymore for a person (01:26:46):
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Speaker1: who has the nuanced view it's (01:26:49):
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Speaker1: a or b but nothing in between one thing (01:26:52):
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Speaker1: like i get back to original questions about how things have changed over the (01:26:57):
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Speaker1: years a number of years ago i was in austin texas for the national orgo templary (01:27:00):
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Speaker1: at this conference and spare a moment there i actually caught up and had lunch (01:27:05):
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Speaker1: with don webb who is involved with the temple of set yeah by (01:27:11):
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Speaker2: The way i live in austin i've had don on the uh on the podcast he's (01:27:15):
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Speaker1: Great awesome awesome and we just kind of sat back and kind of (01:27:18):
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Speaker1: kind of thought about our respective experiences (01:27:21):
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Speaker1: and how our organizations have changed (01:27:24):
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Speaker1: over the years and it was kind of funny because it was (01:27:28):
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Speaker1: kind of a parallel thing which makes me think this is just kind of (01:27:31):
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Speaker1: the nature of groups or maybe the (01:27:34):
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Speaker1: time in which we live rather than of a particular group but (01:27:37):
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Speaker1: the common experience that we both shared was (01:27:40):
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Speaker1: that yeah in the early days you know everyone was just it (01:27:43):
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Speaker1: was just wild and it was parties and drugs (01:27:46):
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Speaker1: and sex and all this stuff but now everyone's kind of (01:27:49):
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Speaker1: grown up they have careers they're professionals and now (01:27:52):
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Speaker1: everyone's like very serious and very bookish and you know (01:27:55):
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Speaker1: some of that wild stuff has kind of gone off to the side and we're actually (01:27:58):
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Speaker1: like you know reached a place of more balance i suppose of kind of taking the (01:28:02):
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Speaker1: stuff seriously and working it from that kind of professional angle and so i (01:28:08):
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Speaker1: thought That was interesting that we both saw that in our respective organizations. (01:28:12):
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Speaker2: That is interesting. Yeah. (01:28:17):
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Speaker2: Lynn, you brought up TikTok and disinformation. And I don't want to let that (01:28:19):
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Speaker2: point slip away because it's increasingly disturbing. (01:28:22):
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Speaker2: Yeah, I'm from the web 1.0 generation. So I don't even have TikTok. (01:28:26):
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Speaker2: Yeah, so I don't even have TikTok in it. But I don't either. (01:28:31):
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Speaker0: So fun fact. So a lot of people on the internet really hate that I exist. (01:28:34):
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Speaker0: They absolutely hate that women talk about Thelema. (01:28:38):
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Speaker0: And I get massive amounts of hate in a way that Richard has never seen in his (01:28:40):
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Speaker0: life, despite him being one of the most public thelemites alive today. (01:28:45):
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Speaker0: But one of the things a really rude, nasty man said to me is he called me a (01:28:49):
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Speaker0: TikTok witch, which was hilarious to me because I have never been on TikTok (01:28:54):
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Speaker0: and I've never practiced witchcraft. (01:28:59):
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Speaker0: You know, of course, people would play like semantics, but well, (01:29:01):
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Speaker0: actually, technically, if you use a wand, it's witchcraft. It's like, okay, whoa. (01:29:03):
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Speaker0: But the truth is, I've used to a categorical standpoint. (01:29:07):
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Speaker0: I've never been in a coven. I don't do what I consider witchcraft. (01:29:10):
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Speaker0: I have been initiated into different ceremonial magic orders. (01:29:14):
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Speaker0: So I've been initiated as a magician several times over. So I consider myself (01:29:17):
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Speaker0: a magician because that's what I am. (01:29:22):
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Speaker0: So yeah, I think that really speaks to the assumptions we make. (01:29:23):
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Speaker0: I'm trying to turn this into a positive spin. (01:29:27):
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Speaker0: I think it really speaks to the assumptions we make about people based on their (01:29:29):
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Speaker0: appearances and how serious their work is or not. (01:29:32):
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Speaker2: Well, one of the disturbing things about TikTok, not just TikTok, (01:29:34):
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Speaker2: but you mentioned satanic panic. (01:29:38):
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Speaker2: And, you know, I've been talking on this podcast for at least three years or (01:29:40):
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Speaker2: more, where it seems like so many of the things that were in play during the (01:29:44):
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Speaker2: satanic panic are kind of back. (01:29:49):
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Speaker2: You know, we had the whole QAnon thing, you know, TikTok, you see disinformation (01:29:50):
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Speaker2: being spread on TikTok. I mean, you see people spreading anti-Semitism on TikTok (01:29:55):
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Speaker2: seemingly unthinkingly. (01:29:59):
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Speaker2: It's like all these things that, you know, the Internet has given us incredible (01:30:01):
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Speaker2: access to information, but it's also revealed a lot of stuff. (01:30:05):
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Speaker2: It's not just revealed stuff that was under the surface, but it's allowed, (01:30:08):
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Speaker2: you know, in the case of TikTok, the Chinese government to manipulate it. (01:30:11):
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Speaker2: And that's worrying because I feel that, you know, the type of information that's (01:30:15):
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Speaker2: out about magic on TikTok or YouTube is it's just non-information. (01:30:22):
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Speaker2: It's bizarre, you know, and people are saying things they shouldn't say, I think. (01:30:27):
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Speaker2: And I worry about that because, you know, particularly with the climate in the (01:30:32):
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Speaker2: world right now, it's like it would be quite easy. You know, (01:30:38):
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Speaker2: we have the specter of Christian nationalism coming back in the U.S. for God's sake. (01:30:41):
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Speaker2: I feel like that could quite easily turn bad. (01:30:46):
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Speaker2: And so I'm personally, you know, like it's a little worrying because I think (01:30:50):
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Speaker2: as the type of people that we are, we want to share knowledge with everyone. (01:30:54):
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Speaker2: And it's been this kind of golden age for a couple of decades where that's been (01:31:00):
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Speaker2: possible, which has been wonderful. (01:31:03):
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Speaker2: But there are these undercurrents now or they're not really undercurrents they're (01:31:05):
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Speaker2: out in the open that make me a bit more trepidatious and i'm just because you (01:31:08):
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Speaker2: brought it up particularly because you brought it up i'm curious your thoughts on that (01:31:13):
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Speaker0: So i i would like to bring up something along the (01:31:16):
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Speaker0: similar current and it's these occult no read list (01:31:19):
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Speaker0: or witchy no read list going around where they make lists of books of authors (01:31:22):
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Speaker0: and books you should avoid because they are problematic or toxic and so typically (01:31:27):
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Speaker0: these lists have a you know it's just like a list of people or books and then (01:31:32):
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Speaker0: they'll have a really quick one word reason and so the one word reason will be like. (01:31:36):
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Speaker0: You know, appropriation, which of course is an issue, but not many people think (01:31:40):
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Speaker0: about what that actually means, but that's a whole nother conversation or they'll (01:31:44):
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Speaker0: put like racism and then they won't unpack what is actually racist about it. (01:31:48):
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Speaker0: And I don't want to go down like a conspiratorial rabbit hole, (01:31:52):
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Speaker0: but the thing I want to point out about these lists of books and works coming out, (01:31:56):
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Speaker0: first of all, I would encourage everyone on the planet to put on your free thought (01:32:01):
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Speaker0: helmet and say to yourself, maybe as a mantra, words will not brainwash me. (01:32:07):
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Speaker0: Reading a single book will not convert me. If you accidentally read a book you (01:32:13):
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Speaker0: disagree with, you will not catch fire and go straight to hell. (01:32:18):
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Speaker0: And I think it's actually quite valuable to read things that you disagree with, (01:32:22):
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Speaker0: read things you hate even. (01:32:28):
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Speaker0: If you can handle it. Now, listen, this is not applying people who are in a (01:32:29):
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Speaker0: psychologically fragile state. (01:32:32):
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Speaker0: Y'all know who you are. If you're working with a therapist, do that. (01:32:34):
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Speaker0: But I'm talking in general here. (01:32:36):
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Speaker0: Yes, it's the internet. So I was like, well, actually, this one circumstance (01:32:38):
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Speaker0: is bad for people. Listen, I'm not talking about that. I'm talking in general. (01:32:41):
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Speaker0: And I think you should put on your armor and you should not approach these works with fear. (01:32:44):
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Speaker0: Approach them with courage and read it and know what you hate. (01:32:50):
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Speaker0: Know who you're canceling. (01:32:54):
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Speaker0: Because I've seen these lists. And another troubling thing is the profound amounts (01:32:56):
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Speaker0: of misinformation proliferated on these lists as well. And it's just really (01:33:00):
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Speaker0: interesting to me that the authors on these lists are oftentimes Jewish. (01:33:05):
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Speaker0: And I've noticed a lot of, in particular, queer authors and Jewish authors end (01:33:10):
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Speaker0: up on these lists for reasons like appropriation. (01:33:15):
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Speaker0: And I sit here and I'm like, this author is Jewish writing about Judaism. (01:33:19):
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Speaker0: Why are they on this list? (01:33:23):
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Speaker0: And like I said, I don't want to get conspiratorial, but I want to encourage (01:33:25):
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Speaker0: people to question who is making the list. (01:33:28):
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Speaker0: Yeah, it could have a fun icon on Tumblr or TikTok. It could look like one of your friends. (01:33:32):
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Speaker0: Anyone can make any profile they want. You don't know who's behind it. (01:33:38):
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Speaker2: Right. (01:33:41):
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Speaker0: And then really do the deep dive to ask yourself, (01:33:42):
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Speaker0: okay, is this actually what people are saying it is without reading the work? (01:33:45):
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Speaker0: And so I think one of the great antidotes to some of this, these issues, (01:33:49):
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Speaker0: specifically these lists and like cancellation things going around is interact (01:33:55):
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Speaker0: with your local community, get to know people in person and also don't be afraid. (01:33:59):
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Speaker0: Don't be afraid to accidentally come across something you disagree with. (01:34:05):
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Speaker0: You know, that was one of the beautiful things that came out of my free thought (01:34:09):
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Speaker0: experience. It was putting on in a controlled environment around consensual (01:34:12):
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Speaker0: people, putting on different thoughts, putting on different ideas, (01:34:16):
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Speaker0: and then really stretch those limits so I could know myself and also the world. (01:34:19):
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Speaker0: And it's almost like it's making me immune to other things I may encounter, (01:34:23):
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Speaker0: right? We expose ourselves to ideas so we're not like frightened or, (01:34:28):
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Speaker0: you know, that I've never spontaneously combusted from reading something I disagree with. (01:34:32):
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Speaker0: And I think it'll be very healthy for people. but yeah be really skeptical of (01:34:37):
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Speaker0: propaganda and i'll say propaganda you find on the internet. (01:34:42):
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Speaker2: Yeah i don't think it's a conspiracy theory because we know (01:34:45):
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Speaker2: and i've just seen them doing it that online nazis neo-nazis love (01:34:48):
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Speaker2: manipulating other communities and they do that intentionally i think they were (01:34:52):
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Speaker2: doing that before the internet whether that's entryism or something like that (01:34:56):
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Speaker2: so that's not a conspiracy whether that's nazis or someone else we don't we (01:34:59):
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Speaker2: don't know what's going on everything's so confusing now you know we have foreign (01:35:03):
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Speaker2: disinformation as well so it's very hard to understand (01:35:07):
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Speaker0: What's going on. And that's one of the things I've intentionally done with my (01:35:10):
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Speaker0: writing, as well as the communities I foster, as well as my podcast, (01:35:14):
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Speaker0: is if you'll notice, for people who are familiar with my work, (01:35:17):
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Speaker0: there is very intentional diversity, right? (01:35:20):
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Speaker0: I specifically highlight the voices of Jewish people, but also women, (01:35:23):
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Speaker0: but also marginalized people of different classes. (01:35:27):
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Speaker0: And we have discussions. I have on a lot of people that I don't necessarily entirely agree with. (01:35:30):
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Speaker0: But it's a space that's explicitly inclusive. (01:35:35):
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Speaker0: And so it's just really interesting when some of my friends end up on those (01:35:40):
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Speaker0: lists when they're actually very good people. (01:35:44):
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Speaker2: Yeah, just as a complete aside, and then I'll just a complete tangent, then I'll come back. (01:35:48):
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Speaker2: One thing that I've been slipping into the podcast here and there is I keep (01:35:53):
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Speaker2: encouraging people to get back into tabletop role playing games. (01:35:57):
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Speaker2: Because first of all, they're awesome. Second of all, they don't involve phones. (01:36:00):
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Speaker2: Third they involve interacting with other people but four they allow you to (01:36:05):
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Speaker2: take on like just like you were saying when they allow you to take on other (01:36:08):
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Speaker2: ideas other personalities in a controlled safe space and that's what you what (01:36:11):
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Speaker2: you were saying made me think of that's (01:36:16):
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Speaker0: Such a good suggestion i love. (01:36:17):
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Speaker1: That and i did notice that kaosium who (01:36:19):
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Speaker1: publishes my favorite tabletop role (01:36:21):
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Speaker1: playing game call of coup yeah yeah later this year is (01:36:24):
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Speaker1: coming out with a book of like one-shot adventures (01:36:27):
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Speaker1: you could play like in an evening so that (01:36:30):
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Speaker1: you know one of the yeah one of the things that i've always hesitated with (01:36:33):
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Speaker1: because i i grew up playing you know dnd and that kind (01:36:36):
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Speaker1: of stuff but as an adult one of the things that i've (01:36:39):
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Speaker1: always hesitated about getting back into it is this idea that (01:36:42):
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Speaker1: you've got a group of people who want to meet regularly and and do this and (01:36:44):
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Speaker1: i just kind of like i don't know if i can commit you know we're too regularly (01:36:50):
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Speaker1: doing this so the idea that hey you know here's some career old characters pick (01:36:54):
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Speaker1: one and let's play this adventure and it's done in the night it's like yeah i can do that i'm (01:36:57):
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Speaker0: I'm gonna give another call to action and that is spend time with your friends (01:37:03):
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Speaker0: spend time with your community i don't care what it is go get a cup of coffee (01:37:08):
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Speaker0: do something low commitment because the research is coming out more and more that community is, (01:37:11):
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Speaker0: vital to us as humans it's it's good for us psychologically even physiologically (01:37:18):
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Speaker0: like you know chemically but also spiritually and I mean I've been doing and (01:37:23):
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Speaker0: I have a friend up in New York who I won't like call out but she's not originally from the U.S. (01:37:28):
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Speaker2: Just go meet people and realize there are people just like you, (01:38:27):
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Speaker2: you know, that's like... (01:38:31):
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Speaker2: And that is one of the greatest things about kind of, you know, paramasonic groups. (01:38:32):
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Speaker2: I know Feral House put out a book several years ago that was the history of, (01:38:38):
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Speaker2: you may know, I can't remember the title, you may remember what I'm talking about. (01:38:42):
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Speaker2: It was a book about Masonic societies in America before the age of TV. (01:38:45):
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Speaker2: And it was like a big coffee table book. I can see the cover being a blue cover. Yeah, yeah, yeah. (01:38:51):
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Speaker2: Exactly. But the really interesting thing about it is they were saying it's (01:38:57):
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Speaker2: like before TV, like basically everyone in America was in something like that. (01:39:00):
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Speaker2: They were like an Elks, you know, Rotary Club, you know, Freemasons, you know, OTO, right? (01:39:05):
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Speaker2: But like there were these things, these organizations for socializing everywhere. (01:39:11):
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Speaker2: And, you know, I think that that just exactly what you said, (01:39:18):
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Speaker2: you know, set all of the... (01:39:21):
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Speaker2: Set the occult aside, you know, just hanging out with people who are somewhat (01:39:23):
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Speaker2: similar with similar interests is really healthy, probably, yeah, (01:39:27):
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Speaker2: at a cellular level, you know, so that's something that (01:39:29):
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Speaker0: I think that people should really look at again, because some of the most formative (01:39:33):
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Speaker0: experiences in my life were with hanging out with small groups of people in (01:39:38):
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Speaker0: occult orders, and it didn't have to be an occult order, it could have been (01:39:43):
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Speaker0: something else, but it was for me. (01:39:45):
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Speaker0: Yeah, also, so speaking of related books, there is a well-known book called (01:39:47):
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Speaker0: Bowling Alone, that kind of talks about this phenomenon of society. (01:39:52):
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Speaker2: Became more and more insulated and less engagement with civic and other sorts (01:39:57):
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Speaker2: of groups yeah the death of the bowling (01:40:01):
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Speaker2: Instagram, Fred, Blue Sky, and I (01:40:34):
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Speaker2: I have some of my upcoming, so you can follow me and see what I'm up to there. (01:40:38):
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Speaker2: In terms of upcoming projects, I've got the audiobook of Pernurabo coming out at the end of this month. (01:40:43):
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Speaker2: A reissue of the book we talked about earlier, (01:40:49):
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Speaker0: The critical edition of Alistair Crowley's Sertive Song, comes out on April (01:40:53):
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Speaker0: 8th, and then late next year, the Mind Over Magic book comes out. (01:40:57):
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Speaker0: So also my website, richard-kaczynski.com, is another way to keep up with what I'm doing. Yeah. (01:41:02):
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Speaker0: First of all, thank you so much for having us on. Of course. (01:41:12):
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Speaker0: Thank you for coming on. Thank you for coming on. Thank you. (01:41:14):
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Speaker0: Again, my name is Mavius Lynn, and the best place to find some of my lectures. (01:41:17):
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Speaker0: So I give lectures in person, and then I translate them into YouTube videos (01:41:22):
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Speaker0: sometimes. If you're interested in seeing like my intro to the Thoth Tara presentation, (01:41:26):
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Speaker0: a bunch of other subjects, those are on my YouTube channel, which is called Mavius Lin. (01:41:31):
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Speaker0: Also, my podcast is on there where I talk to authors and highlight diverse voices (01:41:35):
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Speaker0: and share my experience as a Thelemite. (01:41:39):
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Speaker0: As far as I know, I'm the only Thelemite who's vlogging being a Thelemite, (01:41:42):
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Speaker0: like rituals and stuff and experiences. So if you're interested in that, (01:41:47):
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Speaker0: I do a little bit of that too. I'm on social media. Wow. (01:41:50):
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Speaker2: Wow um i i'm on instagram (01:41:53):
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Speaker2: threads x i'm (01:41:56):
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Speaker2: also on patreon if you want to join my book club you can (01:42:01):
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Speaker2: join my patreon or if you have financial need (01:42:03):
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Speaker2: or some sort of financial issues just contact me and (01:42:07):
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Speaker2: you can join it's open to people of all financial backgrounds (01:42:10):
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Speaker2: or circumstances and then of course (01:42:13):
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Speaker2: at last mystic south conference i (01:42:16):
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Speaker2: was included with the luellen author so there was no big announcement made yet (01:42:19):
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Speaker2: but if you're interested in big announcements for me follow me and maybe there's (01:42:24):
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Speaker2: will be one soon awesome all right well thank you both for being on and hope (01:42:28):
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Speaker2: to have you back on of course wonderful thank you all right you're welcome (01:42:33):
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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}Ep. 221: Richard Kaczynski & Maevius Lynn on the Magick of Thelema

Episode Transcript

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.css-r6mb8g{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:1;overflow:hidden;}On Purpose with Jay Shetty

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Ep. 221: Richard Kaczynski & Maevius Lynn on the Magick of Thelema

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