Ep. 224: Meetings with Remarkable Magicians & Life in the Occult Underground With Carl Abrahamsson

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Track 2: Here yeah isn't it the one called. (05:09):
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Track 1: I i take it actually i am i'm just saying that because i don't want to i don't (05:12):
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Track 1: want to uh part the veil for the uninitiated you know oh. (05:17):
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Track 2: That's cool also i wanted to let you know that it's not 8 15 i can only do an hour. (05:23):
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Track 1: Okay that's fine i have that's fine that works for me too so let's just get (05:28):
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Track 1: into it then perfect so i have your book yeah hooray Very good. (05:32):
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Track 1: So let's just jump off. Let's talk about the new book, Meetings with Remarkable (05:36):
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Track 1: Magicians, Life in the Occult Underground. (05:41):
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Track 1: Tell us about it. (05:44):
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Track 2: Yeah. (05:45):
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Track 2: It's, of course, really weird when it's out there. (05:49):
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Track 2: And I also have it here on my desk, and I've read it so many times, (05:53):
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Track 2: of course, and worked with it. (05:57):
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Track 2: It takes time for books to come out as you know so i (06:00):
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Track 2: started working a couple of years ago and (06:02):
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Track 2: it was a very fascinating experience of course because i (06:06):
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Track 2: was like a decision you know you make a decision yeah (06:09):
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Track 2: i want to write this but i had this yearning also (06:13):
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Track 2: not only to write what was in my mind but (06:16):
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Track 2: to actually go through the archive you know correspondence photographic (06:19):
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Track 2: images and of course my diaries i started (06:23):
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Track 2: writing a diary in 1987-88 and (06:26):
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Track 2: i've been a diligent scribbler you know and that (06:30):
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Track 2: was process takeaway from this (06:33):
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Track 2: was that i had to sit down and go through these things and i found so much stuff (06:37):
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Track 2: that i'd completely forgotten about and it was you know relevant stuff in this (06:42):
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Track 2: context not just you know chronological life bits but you know actual meetings (06:46):
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Track 2: with people what was said how i felt, (06:52):
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Track 2: what it led to, connecting the dots in a way. (06:55):
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Track 2: So that kind of, you know, going into my unconscious, both psychologically, (06:58):
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Track 2: but also in terms of the archive and all those hidden things, (07:03):
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Track 2: was a truly, truly phenomenal experience. (07:06):
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Track 2: And it helped me a great deal, of course, in writing the book. (07:10):
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Track 2: So it changed you know i had you know (07:13):
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Track 2: the desire to write a memoir about (07:16):
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Track 2: magic specifically but then changed along (07:19):
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Track 2: the way because i found so much stuff that sort of affected the (07:22):
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Track 2: process and the content and i wanted it (07:26):
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Track 2: to coincide and the working title was two (07:29):
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Track 2: times saturn i am now coming out of my (07:32):
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Track 2: second return okay i want i (07:35):
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Track 2: wanted to sort of coincide with process to in a (07:38):
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Track 2: way pay back and also get rid be clean (07:40):
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Track 2: and then move into something new that's coming now right so very it's it's been (07:44):
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Track 2: a ritual and this is now kind of a talisman but and i feel you know proud and (07:50):
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Track 2: happy of course but it also like wow what a relief you know okay now i can move on yeah i. (07:54):
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Track 1: Know the feeling so you've titled it meetings with remarkable magicians which (08:01):
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Track 1: i of course, assume is a riff off Gurdjieff's Meetings with Remarkable Men. (08:05):
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Track 2: Yeah, yeah. (08:09):
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Track 1: And that makes me think. And so I'm curious why you chose this title, (08:10):
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Track 1: because I remember reading about Gurdjieff as a teenager and Colin Wilson and (08:14):
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Track 1: finding him fascinating. (08:19):
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Track 1: And the idea of remarkable meeting with awakened people is fun. (08:20):
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Track 1: But I'm like, I want to learn magic. (08:24):
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Track 1: Magic sounds way more fun. I need to, you know, it's like, so why did you choose (08:26):
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Track 1: this title and why such a direct, direct phrasing? (08:30):
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Track 2: Right well it was a joint effort because (08:34):
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Track 2: like i said the working title and my preferred title was (08:37):
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Track 2: actually two times saturn but that would (08:40):
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Track 2: have required that's kind of a technical term and it (08:43):
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Track 2: would have required like an overzealous subtitle (08:46):
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Track 2: or you know an explanation and and (08:50):
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Track 2: we didn't really want to go into that so let's push and (08:53):
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Track 2: explain what it is and then if you can be punny (08:56):
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Track 2: and referencing something that is good and people know yes let's (08:59):
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Track 2: do that so yeah i accepted that totally and then of course the subtitle here (09:02):
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Track 2: is life in the occult underground and first i thought whoa what's that but then (09:07):
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Track 2: i realized fuck that's exactly what i've been doing you know that is it has (09:12):
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Track 2: been my life in the occult underground so i think the title is pretty good and in terms of, (09:16):
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Track 2: As, you know, a master, of course, I have never fully gone into his system because (09:22):
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Track 2: there are so many systems and, you know, you can do only so many in one lifetime. (09:28):
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Track 2: I have great respect for him, but he's never been my cup of resonant TV, you know? (09:32):
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Track 2: So, so I did like the film though. (09:38):
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Track 2: I love the book, Meetings with Remarkable Men. It's a great book. (09:41):
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Track 2: Also a great film, actually. I think it's with the Terrence Stamp or something. (09:44):
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Track 1: Oh, nice. That's amazing. That's amazing. I'm going to have to go find that. (09:48):
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Track 2: Yeah yeah yeah. (09:52):
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Track 1: One thing that i've actually always wanted to ask you about since (09:53):
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Track 1: and we've ever i don't think we've ever talked about it on the podcast but i (09:56):
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Track 1: remember when i was living with jen jen would (09:59):
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Track 1: talk about your time in the oto or the auto (10:02):
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Track 1: as jen called it and the golden dawn and you you talk about that in this book (10:05):
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Track 1: we've talked i think we've talked in podcasts before about jen we've talked (10:11):
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Track 1: about anton lave but at least when i jen always made it sound like you'd made (10:14):
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Track 1: like a pretty disciplined study of those, those older systems. (10:19):
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Track 1: And Jen, of course, would always kind of refer to that as the museum of magic. (10:25):
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Track 1: And this was kind of a point of difference between Jen and I, (10:30):
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Track 1: where I was always taking that stuff seriously, not because I wanted to be a (10:33):
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Track 1: slavish adherent to it, but because I wanted to know it and, (10:37):
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Track 1: and move past it in, in a way, kind of as similar to you're talking about, (10:40):
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Track 1: but to know the classics before trying to improvise. (10:45):
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Track 1: So I'm curious about that time in your life. I think that was the 80s, (10:50):
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Track 1: if I'm remembering correctly, and maybe onwards. (10:53):
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Track 1: But what was that like for you? And of course, you know, you talk about those (10:55):
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Track 1: topics in here, I believe. (10:59):
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Track 2: So yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely. I think that I came in via the experimental (11:01):
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Track 2: and the dark in a way, because I was active in Topi, first of all, (11:07):
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Track 2: from basically from, I guess, you know, 1986 and onwards, and then... (11:11):
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Track 2: Kind of parallel to that there was always crowley you know you you meet (11:18):
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Track 2: crowley always when you're young and you're looking (11:21):
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Track 2: for these things and in the account bookstores that (11:23):
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Track 2: actually existed in stockholm there was of course a lot of (11:26):
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Track 2: crowley not as much as there is today but you know (11:29):
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Track 2: you you are young person you get book of the law and you (11:32):
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Track 2: find it fascinating but my thing the (11:34):
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Track 2: thing that attracted me was not his technical books about (11:38):
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Track 2: magic it was the you know the confessions tome his (11:40):
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Track 2: autobiography which really blew my mind it's (11:44):
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Track 2: like whoa this is an amazing person who has (11:46):
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Track 2: lived life to the fullest and i really liked (11:50):
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Track 2: that book so i did become interested in (11:53):
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Track 2: in the oto because at this time this was (11:56):
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Track 2: around 88 89 oto had (11:58):
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Track 2: only been reactivated it's about seven eight (12:01):
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Track 2: years or something like that when raley (12:05):
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Track 2: mcmurtry this american old ex-military guy sort (12:08):
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Track 2: of rebooted it um with blessings (12:11):
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Track 2: from crowley originally so that's fair and fine and then (12:14):
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Track 2: you know there was an oto body in an organization in norway and i already knew (12:17):
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Track 2: those people from my time in topi because you know it's a small scene small (12:23):
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Track 2: countries a little tiny puddle in a way and we connected and i wanted to go (12:28):
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Track 2: into the oto to study this and. (12:33):
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Track 2: In a serious devoted way and so i became a (12:36):
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Track 2: mineral of the oto in 1989 and i (12:39):
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Track 2: stayed on for exactly 30 years and then i (12:41):
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Track 2: said bye bye bye in 2019 and during. (12:44):
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Track 2: This time i of course was active in what they (12:48):
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Track 2: call you know bodybuilding you know we build bodies camps. (12:50):
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Track 2: Oasis lodges do a lot of initiation and (12:54):
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Track 2: gnostic masses and you know right but of (12:56):
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Track 2: course you also study the system so for me (12:59):
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Track 2: very much i looked going to (13:02):
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Track 2: college and it wasn't all like three decades (13:05):
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Track 2: of college i would say the first half like 15 (13:08):
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Track 2: years of the olympic college in a way and during (13:12):
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Track 2: this time also basically more like (13:15):
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Track 2: mid and 1990s i was (13:18):
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Track 2: also involved in an in a golden dawn group (13:21):
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Track 2: that sort of stemmed from israel regardy okay (13:24):
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Track 2: the stella tina group and i felt (13:27):
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Track 2: like okay so do i need more of this stuff yeah why (13:30):
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Track 2: not because i had the good fortune as i (13:34):
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Track 2: write in the book to be taught and initiated by basically (13:37):
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Track 2: regardy's only magical student which was (13:41):
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Track 2: an american psychologist called chris monaster (13:44):
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Track 2: yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah and (13:47):
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Track 2: she was wonderful and there was this guy david griffin who. (13:50):
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Track 2: I was friendly with who sort of took me to to (13:53):
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Track 2: her in a way but i realized (13:56):
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Track 2: when i came to my as it's called five (13:59):
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Track 2: six it's sort of in between in the middle of the structure and (14:02):
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Track 2: you're supposed to meet your hga and stuff like that it's so incredibly technical (14:06):
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Track 2: it's so incredibly structured it's so incredibly museum of magic so i felt that (14:11):
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Track 2: this is not for me because you know even crowley said no maybe not i my own golden dawn with. (14:17):
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Track 2: Thelma included, that became the AAA. That never really had an appeal for me. (14:26):
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Track 2: I was interested in the OTO because of the fraternity. (14:31):
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Track 2: I wanted to be in that kind of fraternal setting. (14:35):
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Track 2: I was never interested in fraternity masonry, but OTO has that kind of structure, (14:38):
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Track 2: but with cool people, you know, younger, culturally interested, a bit more edgy in a way. (14:43):
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Track 2: But again, I already had all of that from Topi times. Right, right, right. (14:48):
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Track 1: Topi was probably still a lot more edgy than the OTO. i would imagine. (14:53):
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Track 2: Oh absolutely yeah absolutely also (14:56):
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Track 2: keep in mind i mean you already know this but but the (15:00):
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Track 2: stuff that i got to know gradually in the (15:03):
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Track 2: oto that was stuff that we had already worked with (15:05):
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Track 2: in toby times right if we talk you know energies (15:08):
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Track 2: and very particular rituals and and (15:12):
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Track 2: procreative energies you know we can talk about (15:15):
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Track 2: this in many different you know metaphors but hardcore (15:18):
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Track 2: heavy-duty magic coming from not only (15:22):
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Track 2: from the east but from different parts of the world that was chaotically (15:25):
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Track 2: but beautifully synthesized in the topi corpus in a way and you know this of (15:29):
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Track 2: course but but it's it was still interesting for me to be in a structure like (15:34):
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Track 2: the oto because it was regimen you know there was order and structure and i (15:39):
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Track 2: did push through a lot of Crowley's corpus, (15:44):
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Track 2: I would say most of it, and integrated that. (15:47):
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Track 2: And then I later on had problems not only with Crowley, but with the confusion (15:50):
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Track 2: or conflation between the two main Crowley orders, meaning the OTO and AA, (15:58):
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Track 2: and that has led on to, I would say, fairly big problems for the OTO. (16:03):
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Track 1: Talk about that. So what were your problems with Crowley, and then what were these problems of. (16:09):
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Track 2: My problems with Crowley, first of all, was basically a matter of, (16:14):
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Track 2: I think, natural progression on my side. (16:19):
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Track 2: You can only give so much to one kind of guru figure who's not even alive. (16:21):
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Track 2: But I think I re-evaluated him in the sense that he was very old Aeon. (16:28):
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Track 2: Despite the fact that he claimed that he ushered in the new Aeon. (16:35):
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Track 2: And he was a great synthesizer he was a (16:39):
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Track 2: fantastic syncretistic synthesizer brilliant (16:42):
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Track 2: guy and i have the utmost respect for him but when (16:45):
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Track 2: it came to you know what do (16:48):
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Track 2: you call it like like to really show evidence (16:51):
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Track 2: of the fact that his kind of individuation worked out (16:54):
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Track 2: it didn't really work out because he was still you (16:58):
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Track 2: know too old school in a way (17:01):
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Track 2: and i guess maybe it's a generational thing you (17:03):
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Track 2: come to a point doesn't matter if you're a radical magician or (17:06):
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Track 2: a psych or not whatever you come to a point where it's (17:09):
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Track 2: time to start dwindling away in a (17:12):
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Track 2: way and i think he wanted to have given a lot more and of course that's true (17:15):
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Track 2: of all human lives especially creative people's lives i think you want to do (17:20):
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Track 2: so much more but anyway he gave a lot he gave a lot and and i think my problem (17:24):
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Track 2: with it It was basically, (17:31):
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Track 2: I think, maybe my own. (17:33):
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Track 2: You know, that there was no resonance anymore. I felt that I had penetrated (17:35):
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Track 2: the system and the symbols, and it didn't really speak to me as other systems (17:38):
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Track 2: did, or that I wanted to break away to create my own synthesis in a way. (17:44):
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Track 2: Maybe it's my individuation that distanced myself from him, not necessarily (17:48):
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Track 2: that he did anything wrong. (17:53):
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Track 2: And this thing with the two thelemic environments, That was something that irked (17:55):
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Track 2: me a lot towards the end of my period in the OTO, (18:00):
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Track 2: where I could see that elements from the AA sort of snuck in and started, I would say, (18:04):
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Track 2: appropriating or taking over the discourse that was fraternal, (18:15):
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Track 2: that was based in study and community. (18:20):
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Track 2: And then came in as a, what I call in the book, you know, crowlier than thou attitude. (18:23):
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Track 2: And with this incredibly irritating religious lingo. (18:29):
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Track 2: And it just made me, like, so furious. And I can still get riled up. You know what I mean? (18:34):
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Track 1: Are you talking about the effort to normalize everything under Dan Gunther? (18:39):
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Track 2: Yeah. (18:46):
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Track 1: Yeah. (18:48):
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Track 2: Okay. (18:49):
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Track 1: Yeah. Yeah. Well, he just died. He just died. He died, I think, a few months ago. (18:49):
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Track 2: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I think so. (18:54):
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Track 1: Unfortunately, by the way, I'm not slagging off Gunther. I think his book, (18:55):
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Track 1: Initiation in the Aeon of the Child was awesome. (18:59):
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Track 1: And I didn't read the second one, but I never interacted with him personally. And I do know the drama. (19:02):
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Track 1: It sounded to me like they were trying to make everything under him as the cult leader. (19:07):
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Track 2: Yeah yeah totally the little slaves (19:10):
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Track 2: and everything but that's really not the problem (19:13):
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Track 2: because unindividuated people can go down that (19:16):
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Track 2: route and for me he was obviously one of those but (19:19):
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Track 2: what really bugged me was that it takes (19:22):
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Track 2: away the pure essence of thelema which is (19:26):
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Track 2: basically philosophy of will of (19:29):
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Track 2: course you know stemming from nietzsche stemming from schopenhauer (19:32):
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Track 2: but with magic added to it has for (19:35):
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Track 2: me nothing to do with religion right you know crowley's prophet that was crowley (19:39):
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Track 2: you know processing his stuff with his mom who was in the plymouth brethren (19:45):
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Track 2: you know of course he becomes a little bad boy the great beast right that's (19:49):
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Track 2: kind of humoristic and then so you take an you. (19:54):
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Track 1: Take a psychoanalytic read of it then. (19:57):
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Track 2: Yeah yeah okay exactly and then when when you (19:59):
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Track 2: grow up what do you become well you become the prophet but of (20:02):
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Track 2: your own religion okay instead of yeah instead (20:04):
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Track 2: of staying with the powerful you (20:08):
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Track 2: know thelemic thing find your will guys focus (20:11):
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Track 2: on individuation take these elements from (20:14):
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Track 2: the beautiful religious and magical systems of the world and (20:17):
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Track 2: and make it your own in your own blooming you know (20:20):
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Track 2: but then when it comes in that that you know (20:23):
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Track 2: these readings of these texts as being (20:26):
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Track 2: you know sacrosanct as being sacred it must be memorized (20:29):
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Track 2: i i think it's bullshit i think (20:32):
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Track 2: people who are attracted to that they're (20:35):
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Track 2: just substituting something that they want to rebel against (20:38):
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Track 2: in their own religious upbringing you know (20:41):
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Track 2: and you know to each his own but it really bugged me to to the extent that i (20:44):
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Track 2: felt that okay so this is it this is the last drop i'm gonna leave this yeah (20:49):
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Track 2: yeah that i've been with for 30 years you know so now it feels good you know (20:54):
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Track 2: to each his own and that's still going on is. (21:00):
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Track 1: That still going on by the way is there. (21:02):
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Track 2: That's still solid so yeah i i just what's the status of that of higher you (21:04):
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Track 2: know great degree people you know leaving well. (21:11):
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Track 1: Even higher grade wow okay. (21:15):
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Track 2: Oh yeah i would say mostly mostly do. (21:17):
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Track 1: You how much did you look at the like the moda case in the 80s. (21:20):
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Track 2: I remember it vaguely, you know, because at that time, I was way too young when (21:24):
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Track 2: it happened, but I could sort of soon catch up and had some of Malta's edubations and stuff like that. (21:29):
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Track 2: But for me, already there, at that time, it was basically interesting for me (21:35):
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Track 2: to get cool books, you know, to get the material because there's no internet. (21:39):
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Track 1: Right, right, right. (21:44):
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Track 2: To have as many books as possible. And, you know, of course, (21:45):
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Track 2: there will always be the rebels. (21:49):
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Track 2: Crowley was a rebel himself, you know, with the Golden Dawn stuff. (21:51):
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Track 2: And I think that, yeah, maybe just, it wasn't smart. (21:54):
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Track 2: You know, Crowley wasn't smart in this. Because if the AA was supposed to be (22:00):
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Track 2: a, you know, like a private golden dawn for individual work with a teacher and (22:04):
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Track 2: a student and nothing more, right? (22:11):
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Track 2: But it seemed to have grown into a worship of lineage. (22:13):
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Track 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, the lineage word. (22:18):
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Track 1: Religious well it also sounds like from what you were saying and also just me (22:22):
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Track 1: look because i'm not in a member of any of these organizations but you know (22:26):
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Track 1: of course i'm interested in crowley, (22:29):
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Track 1: but kind of observing these things from the outside i have (22:31):
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Track 1: a couple different takes on it and of course this is all (22:34):
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Track 1: alleged because i don't know for sure and i'm not in these orders and (22:37):
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Track 1: i've never met these people and so on but so (22:40):
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Track 1: the thing that always struck me about the moda case is you have this battle (22:44):
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Track 1: for who has who's the official oto between the moda branch and (22:47):
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Track 1: the caliphate as it was called at the time and grady (22:50):
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Track 1: wins and they get legal protection for the oto from wherever the u.s courts (22:54):
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Track 1: and then he dies the next day you know that part right he dies of a heart attack (22:59):
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Track 1: the next day and then the person that they put in the current hymenaeus beta was one of moda students, (23:05):
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Track 1: go figure right so it's like basically he lost the court case but moda student (23:12):
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Track 1: ended up in charge of the now official OTO. (23:17):
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Track 1: And I believe that the Gunther lineage and Wasserman, like those are all Moda (23:20):
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Track 1: people as well, which is why, so it's kind of like this backdoor taking over (23:24):
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Track 1: of the organization by the Moda branch or whatever's left of it was my take on it from the outside. (23:29):
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Track 2: Yeah. I think, yeah, I'm also under the alleged umbrella because it isn't really (23:34):
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Track 2: that interesting to me, especially not these days. (23:40):
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Track 2: At one point, maybe it was, but the thing for me is that the sadness is that (23:42):
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Track 2: it takes away from what is really the essence according to me and i would say (23:47):
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Track 2: many others of thelema that is individuation it's not this, (23:52):
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Track 2: you know occult blah blah it's not the symbols (23:57):
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Track 2: itself and it's certainly not crowley as a prophet and it's (24:00):
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Track 2: certainly not having a religious thing it's it's (24:03):
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Track 2: a really smart western syncretism of many beautiful sources of magic that you (24:07):
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Track 2: can use to individuate what's the problem and and i don't know i think i write (24:13):
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Track 2: in in the book about this also that maybe it was crowley's own fault in a because (24:18):
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Track 2: he wanted so much. He was so hungry. (24:25):
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Track 2: So he wanted to take over the OTO, which was originally a German Freemasonic (24:27):
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Track 2: order that also allowed women in. (24:32):
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Track 2: But he also wanted his own Golden Dawn. (24:34):
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Track 2: But Telema had to be imposed in both of them. (24:37):
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Track 2: Maybe it's just part of his very, very powerful psychology. (24:39):
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Track 2: Obviously, it was powerful because we're talking about it right now. (24:44):
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Track 2: And both groups exist in various fractions, etc. (24:48):
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Track 2: So his magic was for real. But I don't think a lot of that, in German, (24:51):
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Track 2: Überbau, you know, the superstructures are really relevant. (24:57):
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Track 1: Well, that I think, you know, and I've talked about this with Peter Gray recently. (25:00):
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Track 1: I think that, I think we were agreeing that Parsons in, Parsons really very much, I think, (25:06):
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Track 1: demonstrated the new Aeon version of Dilema that's freed of, (25:13):
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Track 1: in his essay, The Witchcraft and things like that that's (25:16):
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Track 1: free of the masonic old boys clubs (25:19):
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Track 1: yeah you know the masonic structures now i love masonic structures (25:23):
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Track 1: i'm a 32nd degree freemason i love freemasonry even but it's not for everyone (25:27):
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Track 1: and it's it's it is a bit of a museum piece i like it but uh or i did at one (25:32):
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Track 1: you know i that's not something i'm really that involved in now but um you know (25:38):
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Track 1: we're in an internet world We're in a TikTok world. (25:43):
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Track 1: We're in a world where I think that the power of organizations was to act as (25:46):
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Track 1: clearing houses for information that you couldn't get easily otherwise. (25:53):
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Track 1: And it was also, of course, to... (25:56):
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Track 1: Meet people that you couldn't meet would be in the pre-internet era so there (26:00):
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Track 1: was not easy access to people or information so of course there had to be these (26:04):
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Track 1: masonic lodge structures. (26:08):
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Track 2: Both. (26:09):
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Track 1: Of those have been replaced by the internet however what has not been replaced (26:10):
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Track 1: by the internet is the fraternization aspect which you mentioned that's. (26:14):
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Track 2: Why you. (26:17):
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Track 1: Were in the oto right so we kind of have this like podcast now. (26:17):
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Track 2: But that. (26:20):
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Track 1: Is something and i've talked with lots of people on the podcast that i miss (26:22):
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Track 1: from the old days there were definitely good and and bad things about it. (26:25):
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Track 2: But um. (26:29):
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Track 1: Yeah so i there's got to be a new aeon version of fraternity sorority you know of of community that. (26:30):
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Track 2: Does not. (26:40):
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Track 1: Have to rely on hierarchy and gurus and and. (26:41):
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Track 2: All of this right yes exactly exactly and (26:43):
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Track 2: i think that that's that's exactly it and of course there will (26:47):
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Track 2: always be you know lone wolves people who prefer (26:50):
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Track 2: to work on their own prefer to be into actually account and (26:53):
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Track 2: and that's beautiful too but i think for for people maybe (26:56):
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Track 2: especially young people they're looking for something you know where (26:59):
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Track 2: it's guidance or stuff the stuff is (27:01):
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Track 2: usually readily available but online for (27:04):
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Track 2: instance but it takes some some kind of synthesizing agent (27:07):
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Track 2: to make it not necessarily palatable but (27:11):
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Track 2: to make it available in a form where they can feel a (27:15):
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Track 2: strong resonance immediately you know because the kids (27:18):
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Track 2: today are you know a bit fragmented they want. (27:21):
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Track 2: Yeah they want fast fixes however as. (27:24):
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Track 2: We know this kind of occult individuation is not a. (27:28):
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Track 2: Quick fix you know it's something you devote your life (27:30):
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Track 2: yeah yeah so it's very important especially in (27:33):
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Track 2: the beginning then when they take their first steps on the path that (27:36):
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Track 2: they find you know trust that they found find (27:39):
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Track 2: real resonance in terms of the symbols and also (27:43):
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Track 2: the people presenting this you know (27:46):
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Track 2: and and that's why i think this this leads (27:49):
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Track 2: to another thing why is there so much (27:51):
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Track 2: occult duration going on you know why is so much occult (27:54):
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Track 2: stuff existing today i think it's very much kind of (27:57):
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Track 2: a union approach to like (28:00):
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Track 2: you know the collective unconscious and the planet as (28:03):
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Track 2: an organism we are all connected we are all the same etc (28:06):
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Track 2: that exists in in many many philosophical cultures (28:09):
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Track 2: and also religions holistic thinking from indigenous (28:12):
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Track 2: tribes to the eastern religions whatever basically (28:16):
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Track 2: we are in dire straits you know this planet (28:19):
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Track 2: is not so well you know many things (28:23):
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Track 2: are going on and we're humans humanity is (28:26):
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Track 2: basically to blame maybe we can fix it maybe (28:29):
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Track 2: we can't we can always try but i do think (28:32):
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Track 2: that that's the reason why all of these alternative ways (28:34):
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Track 2: of thinking and encouraging different kinds of behavioral patterns all this (28:38):
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Track 2: stuff is coming up through you know from harry potter to tushan's esoterica (28:43):
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Track 2: series and many many other things pop culture also intellectual culture and (28:49):
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Track 2: then we have the academics or trying hard and i think that. (28:54):
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Track 2: So basically, the younger generations are exposed to this, but that doesn't (28:58):
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Track 2: automatically mean that they know how to proceed in a wise way. (29:03):
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Track 1: You know. (29:08):
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Track 2: So I think that that's one of the reasons also why, you know, (29:08):
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Track 2: these kinds of podcasts are very good. (29:13):
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Track 1: I think so. (29:15):
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Track 2: Because they can allow people an insight into, for instance, my brain and your brain. (29:15):
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Track 1: Well, of course, but it's the third mind, right? Yeah, yeah, of course. (29:19):
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Track 1: Right and and i think you've used you've used the word resonance (29:23):
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Track 1: several times and i think that's a great word because for me (29:26):
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Track 1: interacting with groups and of (29:30):
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Track 1: course interacting with individuals or a small collection like going out to (29:33):
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Track 1: a pub to interact with people who are talking about this that's (29:36):
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Track 1: great amazing right like that's amazing too and in (29:39):
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Track 1: addition to that interacting with groups or even just going to temples right (29:41):
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Track 1: which may or not be esoteric they may may not be western magic (29:45):
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Track 1: temples but of other religions it's about the (29:48):
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Track 1: resonance so yes you're meeting people yes you're talking to them you're getting (29:51):
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Track 1: instructions for practices you're looking at books and reading books but the (29:54):
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Track 1: underlying it's the frequency that's produced that you're actually learning (29:58):
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Track 1: from you know what maybe we could call that the magical current but yeah in (30:02):
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Track 1: more practical terms what you, (30:06):
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Track 1: when you're just reading about this for the first time (30:09):
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Track 1: you can get all kinds of ideas but then when you are in the energy field of (30:12):
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Track 1: a group or a person suddenly it makes sense in context and you can't get the (30:16):
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Track 1: context just reading stuff on the internet right you can get something you know (30:20):
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Track 1: you can produce 4chan meme magic (30:24):
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Track 1: or something like that that they've done but but you can't really get. (30:26):
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Track 1: You know the type of evolutionary current that was run in topi and and to some (30:32):
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Track 1: extent is run in the oto maybe it has been more or less at different times in (30:38):
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Track 1: that organization's or existence but But for me, that's a big part of it. (30:42):
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Track 1: And it's kind of like the importance of maybe having a psychedelic trip or two to figure things out. (30:47):
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Track 1: Also, interacting with other people is like that as well. But it's about tapping (30:53):
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Track 1: into the frequency itself if you're able to do that, if you have that type of capability. (30:57):
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Track 2: Yeah no absolutely and that was like a (31:01):
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Track 2: big red thread when working on (31:05):
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Track 2: this book also because of course it brought back very you know (31:08):
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Track 2: strong memories and and my resonances with (31:10):
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Track 2: these like key people again of course (31:13):
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Track 2: and lave and anger and a couple of others that i've mentioned in the (31:16):
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Track 2: book and and and again it's it's (31:19):
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Track 2: a personal thing like you said you could read their stuff that could be cool (31:22):
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Track 2: and inspiring but then when you have that personal interaction it does change (31:25):
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Track 2: things in yourself and it does awaken things that you would otherwise not have (31:30):
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Track 2: like from a mere reading but then i thought of myself as being so, (31:35):
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Track 2: Well, unique in the sense that I could never really figure out early on because (31:41):
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Track 2: I got kind of like a crash start. (31:45):
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Track 2: You know, it was so fast and I couldn't figure out because when I was a teenager, (31:47):
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Track 2: I was just like, you know, romantically fantasizing about these cool people. (31:52):
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Track 1: Right, right, right, right. (31:56):
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Track 2: And then suddenly like there was a floodgate and I was suddenly welcome in all of these environments. (31:57):
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Track 2: And I think in part because of myself, in part it was, you know, (32:03):
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Track 2: the first issue of the Fenris World, my ongoing occultural journal. (32:07):
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Track 2: And then I think that, like Bob Colacello, the editor of Interview Magazine, (32:11):
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Track 2: once said about Andy Warhol, the fact that Colacello had also become successful. (32:16):
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Track 2: Like, Andy opened the door the first time and took me into these environments. (32:22):
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Track 2: But it was my own doing that made me be welcome back second and third, you know, forever. (32:25):
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Track 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah. (32:31):
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Track 2: And I think that was the case also. And then I realized while writing about (32:32):
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Track 2: this chronological way, (32:37):
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Track 2: wow, there's a lot of stuff here, meaning real wisdom, that in part these people (32:39):
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Track 2: have expressed or tried to express in their own language, in their own symbology, etc. (32:46):
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Track 2: But I'm also the container of a really potent kind of, well, (32:51):
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Track 2: I guess you could call it individuation, encouraging energy. (32:57):
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Track 2: You can call it telemic to some degree, satanic to some degree, (33:02):
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Track 2: topic, chaotic to some degree. (33:06):
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Track 2: Call it what you want. But that made me realize I wanted to pay my respect in the book. (33:08):
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Track 2: And as you know, also, the Sacred Intent book with Jan, and the film with Jan, (33:15):
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Track 2: and the LaVey film, and the LaVey book, and the Anger film, I have paid my respects to those people. (33:20):
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Track 2: But it's not only about paying back, it's about paying it forward to re-producing (33:27):
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Track 2: this stuff, this cluster, this egregore, or whatever you want to call it, to a new generation. (33:32):
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Track 1: And that's happening, I think. (33:38):
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Track 2: And that's basically my job now. (33:39):
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Track 1: Yeah, right? And I think it's amazing how... (33:40):
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Track 1: I've been consistently surprised how receptive people are to it. (33:44):
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Track 1: And I think that one of, and I think it's been because of the internet, (33:48):
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Track 1: what I've found at least is that people that would never have come to these (33:52):
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Track 1: groups before, because let's face it, they're a social liability. (33:58):
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Track 1: Also, people don't have time if people have, and, but you even see that as far (34:02):
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Track 1: back as like, they were even a social liability in Crowley's time. (34:06):
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Track 1: Like you see JFC Fuller trying to distance himself from Crowley and things like that. (34:09):
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Track 1: So it's always been a tough sell to (34:13):
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Track 1: attract people who actually have real world lives (34:17):
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Track 1: to occult groups right like let's be honest yeah but (34:20):
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Track 1: now that things are available on the internet that barrier is not (34:23):
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Track 1: there anymore and people can consume things discreetly and (34:27):
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Track 1: maybe nobody even knows that there are you know look (34:31):
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Track 1: you know even they may not even have an occult book collection because (34:34):
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Track 1: it's online so you can you would never know and so i (34:37):
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Track 1: found that everybody's interested in this (34:40):
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Track 1: topic and who why wouldn't you be right and (34:42):
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Track 1: i do think that we're in a incredible period of flowering (34:45):
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Track 1: for this assuming it doesn't get and assuming there's not a new inquisition (34:50):
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Track 1: or you know or a fatwa or something but assuming this keeps going forward i (34:55):
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Track 1: think that it's flowering in an incredible way that it hasn't i i was far greater (35:02):
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Track 1: than than what i expected. (35:07):
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Track 2: I agree and i see that as a very very good (35:09):
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Track 2: thing because of course it's not one thing it's like it's like one umbrella (35:12):
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Track 2: or one cauldron that contains many different spirits and inputs and influxes (35:17):
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Track 2: and and but they're all like very pro-human life i don't mean to sound like the abortion people. (35:22):
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Track 1: In the u.s. (35:30):
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Track 2: But i mean it's like really life enhancement positive people yeah or, (35:31):
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Track 2: yeah let's solve these problems you (35:36):
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Track 2: know let's be nice to the earth and let's be you know this (35:39):
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Track 2: kind of thing and it sounds a little bit hippy-dippy but I (35:42):
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Track 2: really don't care because I've gone from getting so (35:45):
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Track 2: much projections on me you know the satanism or the dark strains and call it (35:48):
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Track 2: what you want left hand path today I am a proud spokesperson not spokesperson (35:54):
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Track 2: I'm a proud sort of person who is on the no-handed path. (36:00):
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Track 2: It's not right-hand, it's not left-hand. It's more like a kind of Taoist, (36:07):
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Track 2: but constructive and active thing. (36:12):
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Track 2: Just wanting to solve the problems, move ahead, become a better person. (36:15):
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Track 2: And of course, then if that makes me sound like a middle-aged hippie, I don't give a fuck. (36:21):
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Track 2: People can project whatever they want. But for me, it makes sense. (36:27):
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Track 1: It does. For me, that's attention. you know be and it always has been i mean (36:31):
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Track 1: jen always referred to that as you know the pathless path which i think from (36:36):
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Track 1: agora right and and this is what jen was always trying to get through to me, (36:39):
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Track 1: I think, yeah, you get to a certain level where it's almost like if you accept (36:44):
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Track 1: some of the fundamental acts, if you have a clear, once you have a strong sense (36:50):
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Track 1: of yourself, let's just put it that way without putting esoteric language on it. (36:55):
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Track 1: If you accept the basic precepts of hermeticism which (36:58):
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Track 1: in my mind are perfectly encapsulated by the (37:02):
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Track 1: morrissey line nature nature is a language can't you read that (37:04):
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Track 1: the world is talking to you through the language of symbolism and dreams and (37:08):
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Track 1: everything around events people who come into your life all of this is is a (37:12):
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Track 1: magical process well then really there's nothing to do except what the work (37:16):
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Track 1: that's put in front of you right and it becomes like the chop wood carry water. (37:21):
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Track 1: Before and after enlightenment type thing that said it's (37:25):
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Track 1: easy to it can still be in that (37:28):
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Track 1: state it's really easy to fall into solipsism and say (37:31):
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Track 1: like whatever i do is right it's magic i and you (37:35):
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Track 1: hear people saying this all the time like i don't do magic i am magic (37:38):
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Track 1: and i've always been a little bit cautious of (37:41):
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Track 1: that because as you've mentioned you know the processes of (37:44):
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Track 1: magic can be incredibly technical and sometimes that's (37:47):
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Track 1: for good reason and sometimes it gets (37:50):
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Track 1: in the way but sometimes you need it to actually do certain things so (37:53):
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Track 1: i've always been wary of (37:58):
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Track 1: you know as peter carroll called it in cyber magic dropping (38:02):
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Track 1: the wand which is just declaring yourself (38:05):
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Track 1: enlightened saying everything you do is magic and then dropping (38:08):
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Track 1: all of the technical processes of magic part of me says okay that's the zen (38:11):
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Track 1: master approach part of me says okay well that's like breaking a world championship (38:15):
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Track 1: of weightlifting and then saying i am the weights dropping exercise and just (38:20):
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Track 1: now going back to being on the couch so yeah. (38:26):
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Track 2: Absolutely no no no that's completely completely true i think what i was referring (38:28):
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Track 2: to also is just this having been in this environment for such a long time i (38:34):
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Track 2: think it's very nice to retract you know because there's been a lot of pushing (38:38):
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Track 2: pushing pushing in my psyche and in my, I don't know, career in a way. (38:43):
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Track 2: But what happened was that three and a half years ago, basically during COVID, (38:48):
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Track 2: I think, we moved away from Stockholm, for instance. (38:53):
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Track 2: That was a big thing for me at age 55 to move to a very small place and into (38:56):
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Track 2: a house. I'd always been into these small apartments and stuff like that. (39:03):
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Track 2: So that changed my outlook and perhaps in-look also in a way that's. (39:07):
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Track 2: Okay, I am not only like mister or culture writing about these things or doing (39:13):
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Track 2: my petty little rituals and stuff. (39:19):
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Track 2: I can also upheave myself and create these big changes that are actually really (39:21):
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Track 2: conducive to, you know, even deeper kind of creativity that I've always wanted. (39:28):
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Track 2: You know, maybe I'm a slow learner or just a slow bloomer or whatever you want to call it. (39:34):
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Track 2: But that also led to my wanting to write the book, because I found this peace (39:39):
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Track 2: in this new environment, which was not filled with other people's projections on me. (39:44):
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Track 2: It was not filled with my own demands of myself to maintain a certain facade, in a way. (39:51):
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Track 2: That's i don't think i've never i've ever been like (39:58):
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Track 2: deceitful in my facade but i felt (40:02):
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Track 2: that you know yeah left hand path (40:05):
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Track 2: right hand path what the fuck does it mean really you (40:08):
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Track 2: know so that's where the concept of like the no hand path (40:11):
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Track 2: i do not claim to be fully enlightened i (40:14):
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Track 2: do not claim to want to leave the technology i love it but it's just that that (40:17):
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Track 2: sometimes this terminology is vapid it's it's so you know pointless in a way (40:22):
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Track 2: because it's still it's about you and your life and how you want to go about (40:29):
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Track 2: it and i think like you said with the. (40:34):
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Track 2: Psychedelic thing there also is that what the (40:36):
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Track 2: i guess the old boys talked about there needs (40:39):
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Track 2: to be a language and structure to take (40:42):
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Track 2: care of the experience so that you don't simply (40:45):
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Track 2: go back to work on monday morning and then (40:48):
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Track 2: it was like right right right right it was great on saturday (40:51):
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Track 2: evening and i had the the most important epiphany of my (40:54):
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Track 2: life and then it sort of fizzles out but (40:57):
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Track 2: you should integrate these things and i think that's very (41:00):
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Track 2: true for magical insights and magical experiences also (41:03):
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Track 2: the integration and the trusting that work (41:07):
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Track 2: comes from inside is actually true and (41:10):
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Track 2: valid and yeah so basically maybe (41:13):
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Track 2: i am trying to formulate something that i (41:16):
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Track 2: have integrated or ingrained or eaten (41:19):
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Track 2: at some point in my life and i'm just trying to make sense of it and maybe repackaging (41:22):
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Track 2: it for it's not only for my own amusement and pleasure but because i know that (41:28):
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Track 2: but was once inspiring for me can also be inspiring for other people. (41:33):
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Track 2: So it's like a carrying on in a way. (41:38):
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Track 1: Yeah, well, I, of course, always call that turning the wheel, (41:40):
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Track 1: you know, and you get that concept all throughout the Eastern traditions. (41:43):
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Track 1: It's been that way forever. (41:46):
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Track 1: I mean, you absorb as much as you, if you're serious about this, (41:48):
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Track 1: you absorb as much as you can from as many teachers as you can early on. (41:51):
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Track 1: And then probably invariably you get to, I find, you get to a point in your (41:55):
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Track 1: life where that falls away. (41:59):
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Track 1: You're thrown out of the nest to fend on your own, and eventually you come to (42:00):
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Track 1: a place where you feel a sense of, (42:04):
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Track 1: equanimity, confidence, and that you actually have something to say, (42:08):
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Track 1: and then you re-articulate it, and I think in re-articulating this, we're never, (42:12):
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Track 1: I think if people are if we're doing our job, it's it's never radically changed. (42:18):
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Track 1: It's the same message that people have been saying since the beginning of time. (42:22):
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Track 1: It's just repackaging new cultural symbols. So this is a necessary part of of (42:25):
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Track 1: and this is why, like you were talking about, you know, lineage wars. (42:30):
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Track 1: It's like tradition isn't isn't important. (42:34):
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Track 1: I think it's important because you need somebody to give you the core message. (42:36):
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Track 1: But then the downfall is then, of course, that you get people get to like literal (42:41):
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Track 1: and hung up on the symbols and miss the point. (42:45):
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Track 2: Yeah right like they. (42:47):
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Track 1: Start fixating on the menu not eating the meal. (42:49):
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Track 2: Right exactly and then you know that that's that's those (42:51):
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Track 2: kind of cliches about you know you have (42:54):
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Track 2: to make your own mistakes but yeah to a (42:57):
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Track 2: certain degree but it's good if you can avoid it you know you can easily (43:00):
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Track 2: see so many people having made mistakes in this (43:03):
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Track 2: occult history in a way that and especially (43:06):
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Track 2: if you're doing it in real time and you see how other people (43:09):
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Track 2: do it and how they behave and does it really do (43:11):
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Track 2: anything good for them are they developing as human (43:14):
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Track 2: beings you know i i found that i found (43:17):
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Track 2: a few of those people and i'm very grateful to them (43:20):
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Track 2: i would never like you know hang out with them or anything (43:23):
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Track 2: like that but they have showed me that you know things can go very wrong also (43:26):
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Track 2: what would you said solipsism or hubris or or all kinds of stuff and and i don't (43:32):
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Track 2: need to make all those mistakes myself to understand them i can see them happening (43:38):
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Track 2: other people well without grateful yeah. (43:43):
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Track 1: I think that's a positive way to look at it and a sane way to look at it i think (43:45):
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Track 1: what are some examples without naming names what are some examples of mistakes (43:50):
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Track 1: that you've seen people make and because that's a pretty important topic. (43:55):
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Track 2: Yeah absolutely i think if we want to stay technical like technically magical (44:00):
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Track 2: or technically occult and stuff like that, (44:07):
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Track 2: now i'm at a point again where you know i try to be free also in my intuitive (44:11):
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Track 2: way of working with rituals and stuff not be too slavish to any kind of system (44:17):
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Track 2: but there is this thing and that's why it's good to begin in magic school like (44:22):
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Track 2: with the traditional stuff yeah okay so you do it do a (44:27):
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Track 2: banishing of the space and you do an invocation and then you state your intent (44:30):
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Track 2: and then eventually you do a banishing of the energies present that in a way (44:34):
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Track 2: it's kind of psychodrama right but it, (44:39):
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Track 2: regardless if there are outside forces affecting us or if it's all psychological you know we can, (44:43):
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Track 2: Doesn't matter. We do this psychodramatic approach. (44:51):
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Track 2: And if we go into that full force, if we don't do one of these things that have (44:54):
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Track 2: been recommended to us, like for instance, banishing when you're done, (45:00):
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Track 2: you know, it could lead to things. (45:04):
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Track 2: That doesn't mean that there are demons out there waiting to come in. (45:06):
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Track 2: But if you accept it and you're devoted to that particular kind of system. (45:10):
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Track 2: Then it's a good thing to follow the system. (45:14):
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Track 2: And i cannot i'm almost bored (45:17):
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Track 2: with myself because i always give the same example all the (45:20):
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Track 2: time but it's that beautiful scene from disney's (45:23):
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Track 2: fantasia with mickey mouse as the sorcerer's apprentice it's (45:26):
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Track 2: it's you know it's on film history but it's also magical history it's such a (45:30):
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Track 2: beautiful thing where you go overboard because you don't you know do it right (45:34):
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Track 2: and i've seen some people work in i I would say particularly those kinds of (45:39):
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Track 2: structured psychodramatic systems where they've been sloppy. (45:44):
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Track 2: And at first you can say that, oh, it's just symbolic, whatever. (45:50):
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Track 2: But I've seen people change over time knowing that they work things in a far (45:56):
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Track 2: too ironic way, yet they want to remain within a rigid system of very powerful energies. (46:02):
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Track 2: And and there i can say i mean (46:09):
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Track 2: it's of course not empirical but my own deduction is (46:13):
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Track 2: still that whoa maybe these people should have (46:15):
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Track 2: you know banished for a couple of decades right (46:18):
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Track 2: because they don't seem to be doing so well and other things are of course that (46:22):
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Track 2: when you let's call it the hot air balloon thing when there's no grounding you (46:28):
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Track 2: become hubristic in your belief that you can, you know, (46:35):
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Track 2: cause change to occur in conformity with will. (46:39):
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Track 2: Maybe you can, but that's no cause or reason for you to be so filled with that. (46:41):
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Track 2: Childlike power and pride that you (46:48):
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Track 2: sort of hover up but there's if there's no (46:51):
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Track 2: connection to the earth then you will just keep hovering up until you're lost (46:54):
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Track 2: in space quite literally right and i've seen a few of those cases also the amazement (46:57):
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Track 2: about the fact that it actually works makes people high and they become high (47:03):
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Track 2: on themselves instead of you know feeling a connection to basically the (47:09):
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Track 2: core what i called source magic you know this this (47:14):
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Track 2: core connection to a shamanic mind frame (47:17):
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Track 2: that's been with us since time immemorial and we all share the potential but (47:20):
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Track 2: they want to clothe it in something that is specifically individual for them (47:24):
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Track 2: but that they're doing the right thing everyone else is doing the wrong thing (47:29):
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Track 2: again you mentioned solipsism i've seen that happen many times also what. (47:32):
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Track 1: About personality like inflated personality errors on. (47:37):
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Track 2: Ego that's exactly what what i mean it's like you know a clouding judgment clouding (47:41):
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Track 2: personal relationships basically let's call it we can call it maybe falsely (47:47):
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Track 2: psychotic behavior you know when you're so immersed in the thing again it's (47:53):
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Track 2: it's about boundaries isn't it you know when you don't, (47:58):
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Track 2: symbolically or realistically cut you know (48:01):
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Track 2: banish and then you're in real life real mind frame again but i've i've encountered (48:04):
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Track 2: people who prefer to live in the you know something that they claim is connected (48:10):
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Track 2: to their degree in whatever degree system right right right right right right (48:15):
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Track 2: well they're just assholes yeah. (48:19):
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Track 1: I think that's a that's a tricky one and i think that one of the you mentioned (48:21):
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Track 1: banishing but i think you know one of the big benefits of kind of like these (48:27):
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Track 1: old medieval museum of magic symbols like circles and robes and things like (48:31):
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Track 1: that is making that clear boundary between. (48:35):
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Track 2: Activities. (48:38):
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Track 1: Let's put it this. (48:39):
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Track 2: Way it's like kind of like. (48:40):
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Track 1: It's like when you put on your gym clothes when you go to the gym. (48:43):
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Track 2: Yeah, yeah. (48:45):
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Track 1: And I think that it's very psychologically healthy for people to, (48:46):
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Track 1: at least the way that I navigate this, is you are a magician when you are doing magic. (48:50):
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Track 1: Right? So when you're doing, you're all vibed up and all that, (48:55):
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Track 1: and you got all the, everything's going, you're doing a ritual. (48:59):
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Track 1: Yeah, like you want to believe all this stuff, right? (49:02):
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Track 1: But when you're out of that, you need to go back to your normal personality. (49:05):
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Track 1: And I don't know how psychologically healthy compartmentalizing parts of yourself are, (49:09):
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Track 1: but I think in the case of magic, what you don't want is that, (49:13):
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Track 1: you know, shamanic personality bleeding out into your day-to-day interactions (49:18):
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Track 1: with people who have no context for that whatsoever. (49:22):
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Track 1: And I'm not always the best at that. (49:25):
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Track 1: But I think that that's generally a healthy way to that's the healthiest way (49:27):
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Track 1: that I found to look at it, which is I'm a magician when I'm doing magic. (49:32):
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Track 1: It's a it describes an activity rather than an identity. (49:35):
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Track 1: It describes an activity rather than identity. It's like I'm a pole vaulter when I'm pole vaulting. (49:39):
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Track 1: But that does not describe my (49:45):
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Track 1: essence as a human, you know, and I think that's a good way to look at it. (49:47):
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Track 2: So yeah have. (49:52):
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Track 1: You did you ever get involved with the fraternist attorney or ralph tegmaier or any of those guys. (49:55):
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Track 2: Well ralph wrote (50:00):
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Track 2: the forward wrote the intro oh right yeah of course no (50:03):
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Track 2: wonder i was thinking about him yes yeah yeah so so (50:06):
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Track 2: yeah absolutely and i think that i've always (50:09):
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Track 2: had an open mind and of course (50:12):
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Track 2: chaos magic in itself was very inspiring (50:15):
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Track 2: for me in the early days you know with carol's (50:19):
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Track 2: stuff and also sherwin and you know phil hein many of those early chaos writers (50:22):
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Track 2: were really fantastic and also i've written a piece that's very proud to be (50:28):
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Track 2: included in a chaos magic anthology that's coming out next year i think where (50:33):
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Track 2: i write about my love for their (50:39):
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Track 2: magazine or their fanzine, Chaos International. (50:41):
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Track 1: Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. (50:44):
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Track 2: Was like so wonderful whenever i got my hands on a new somebody somebody. (50:46):
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Track 1: Needs to publish that in anthology form because those. (50:51):
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Track 2: Are not on the internet. (50:53):
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Track 1: They're not possible i mean i've thought about doing it myself also but i think the. (50:54):
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Track 2: Rights the. (50:59):
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Track 1: Rights issues alone would be a nightmare but. (50:59):
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Track 2: Yeah probably but some somebody maybe you like somebody. (51:02):
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Track 1: Should somebody should bring those back out because they're. (51:06):
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Track 2: They're a lot those. (51:09):
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Track 1: Are truly lost occult literature and they're they were so good they're. (51:10):
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Track 2: Really expensive on ebay i'm only you know and so (51:15):
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Track 2: i i wrote an essay about that how they affected (51:17):
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Track 2: me and and yeah over the years i've been in touch with with many of those people (51:21):
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Track 2: with the fraternity's attorney i i am friendly with some of the current people (51:25):
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Track 2: who are working it and i think it's it's a great very interesting the uh again (51:30):
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Track 2: we had crowley there in that meeting in the 1920s or 30s maybe, (51:36):
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Track 2: where he had sort of this conference where people, the locatists there, (51:41):
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Track 2: had to accept the law of Paloma. (51:46):
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Track 2: And I would have loved to have been a fly on the wall in that sort of really (51:48):
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Track 2: psychotic environment. (51:52):
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Track 2: But I mean, for 30s, they were one of the groups that accepted it. (51:54):
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Track 2: So that's kind of interesting how, let's call it malleable, how malleable these (51:58):
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Track 2: movements and groups and people, (52:03):
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Track 2: individual minds, can be you know when there's a strong influx of something (52:06):
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Track 2: that feels you know having as if it's having to do with a destiny of some sort (52:09):
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Track 2: i don't know but anyway i think they're all working. (52:15):
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Track 2: Systems and knowledge and and wisdom in (52:20):
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Track 2: their own peculiar way i guess maybe it's a kind of a social thing that when (52:23):
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Track 2: there's a need for something in one particular group it will emerge like when (52:27):
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Track 2: there's a need for something for instance food for my body I know I'm hungry (52:32):
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Track 2: then I go eat, you get these signals and I think maybe, (52:37):
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Track 2: that's what's going on now with this thing that i call acculturation also (52:41):
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Track 2: all of these things are emerging from our (52:45):
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Track 2: unconscious because we need them we (52:48):
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Track 2: need them as mirrors we need them as the sources (52:51):
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Track 2: of inspiration in order to communicate and change (52:54):
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Track 2: our behavioral the negative loops etc etc (52:57):
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Track 2: and i think that's also true with you know so (53:01):
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Track 2: you have the fraternity the saturni and you have the (53:03):
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Track 2: oto and you have other kinds of groups they're just (53:06):
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Track 2: basically pushing the same thing in (53:09):
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Track 2: in different symbol in different sort of (53:13):
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Track 2: symbolic systems and i think that's it is (53:16):
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Track 2: what it is and i think that those people (53:19):
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Track 2: are lucky who find their group who find their (53:22):
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Track 2: kin or their community because then again as (53:25):
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Track 2: we said before you can get some really interesting work (53:28):
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Track 2: done with communal energy whether in ritual or just socially which you can't (53:31):
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Track 2: really do if you're just at work and then go home and watch tv you know you (53:38):
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Track 2: can you can learn more about yourself when you can have that trust for a group of people yeah. (53:42):
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Track 1: And that's that's and that's tricky to establish in groups particularly occult. (53:48):
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Track 2: Groups which as you said yourself can be pretty psychotic environments yeah (53:52):
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Track 2: another history of occultism is the history of failed groups basically yeah. (53:56):
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Track 1: Yeah i mean i think that that's one of the reasons why i would have been so (54:02):
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Track 1: impressed with freemasonry because it's been so persistent and and i mean they're (54:05):
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Track 1: not really doing magic and freemasonry at all but it's been. (54:10):
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Track 2: Pretty consistent. (54:12):
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Track 1: For a long time although. (54:13):
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Track 2: Yeah we'll. (54:15):
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Track 1: See how it goes in the future but yeah i mean that that seems to be part of (54:15):
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Track 1: the life cycle of magical groups is that they once it seems like once, (54:20):
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Track 1: Once you have enough people that are confident in their own ability, (54:26):
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Track 1: it's kind of like their egos start to bounce off each other. (54:30):
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Track 1: And that tends to be everyone. But you see that with the Golden Dawn. (54:33):
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Track 1: But you see that the Golden Dawn collapsed. (54:36):
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Track 1: The Golden Dawn is probably the most spectacular example of an occult group (54:38):
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Track 1: falling apart with the Horus Affair and with all of that. (54:43):
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Track 1: But the people that the Golden Dawn produced were of higher caliber than any other group, arguably. (54:47):
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Track 1: You've got Dion Fortune. You've got Crowley. You've got Yates. (54:52):
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Track 1: You've got but not yet specific but specifically you have people to go on to (54:55):
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Track 1: create tremendous contributions and orders in their own right. (55:00):
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Track 2: Absolutely so absolutely maybe. (55:04):
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Track 1: That may it may be a kind of a coefficient of the initiatory power or of the (55:08):
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Track 1: group or the energies raised with the level of blowout potentially. (55:13):
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Track 2: Yeah yeah yeah yeah absolutely maybe all (55:16):
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Track 2: of these groups or communities are just springboards for (55:19):
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Track 2: what's coming you know maybe that's part of the work and (55:23):
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Track 2: i feel just speaking for myself with this (55:26):
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Track 2: with this book it's like maybe i can (55:29):
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Track 2: be a springboard you know someone will come into the book read it find it fascinating (55:32):
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Track 2: and then become interested in one part of it you know oh hopefully and then (55:36):
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Track 2: i think that that again that's really all we can do you know Because if you (55:42):
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Track 2: go into this, I don't know, (55:47):
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Track 2: well, Crowleyan mind frame of, yeah, I'm a prophet, I'm a this and a that, (55:50):
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Track 2: and I have all these things. (55:55):
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Track 2: Then I think you're kind of lost. (55:56):
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Track 2: You've lost it because if there's (55:59):
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Track 2: something that people need in a (56:02):
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Track 2: real individuation process is the immediate trust (56:05):
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Track 2: in themselves not so much (56:09):
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Track 2: the the eastern approach where (56:11):
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Track 2: you know where it's more natural to be in (56:15):
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Track 2: a guru and student thing right in (56:18):
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Track 2: the western mind frame we don't really have that and i think (56:20):
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Track 2: that creates the problem when someone tries to enforce it (56:23):
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Track 2: like probably did with the aaa for instance and i (56:26):
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Track 2: think that people need to relax pull back (56:30):
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Track 2: a little bit be cool and freely share (56:33):
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Track 2: whatever their experience is not shove it down people's throats you know because (56:36):
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Track 2: then you can become like a zealot like like any kind of religious zealot a proselytizer (56:43):
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Track 2: or a missionary who goes on a mission for the sacred magical individuation it's so paradoxical. (56:49):
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Track 2: And I think people need to be attracted to something. (56:56):
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Track 2: And we can only be little, perhaps humble beacons, sending out signals of, (56:59):
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Track 2: hey, this is my experience, you can take it or leave it. (57:05):
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Track 2: But if you want to take it, you're more than welcome to have a continued dialogue (57:07):
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Track 2: or something, but not have it as a... (57:11):
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Track 2: You know, quasi-religion. (57:14):
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Track 1: Right, right. Have you had any surprising, well, actually, before I ask that, on that note, (57:16):
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Track 1: you know, you've interacted with a lot of charismatic guru figures as of, (57:22):
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Track 1: you know, as many of the same, as of I, but I mean, just to mention a few, (57:26):
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Track 1: you know, people like Jen, people like Anton LaVey, potentially Bill Breeze, (57:30):
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Track 1: you know, heads of these groups. (57:35):
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Track 1: Have you found, even David Griffin, I mean, have you found some of these people (57:36):
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Track 1: to be trapped by their, these are people who took the guru path and Jen let's (57:40):
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Track 1: be honest took that path no matter what Jen. (57:47):
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Track 2: Said about. (57:49):
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Track 1: It um and and had an interesting experience but do you do you feel that any (57:49):
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Track 1: of these people were trapped by their organization right and starting it and (57:56):
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Track 1: becoming this charismatic figure they became perhaps played by their own. (58:00):
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Track 2: Intelligence I would probably say (58:05):
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Track 2: all of them actually and and i don't mean to say (58:08):
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Track 2: it sound harsh or critical in that sense it's (58:11):
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Track 2: you know part of the job is to this is (58:14):
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Track 2: saying you know job worth doing is worth doing (58:18):
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Track 2: well and when you're doing the job well you (58:21):
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Track 2: are completely immersed and then you get projections and you can get maybe some (58:24):
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Track 2: some reap some benefits from it etc you paint yourself in a corner that originally (58:28):
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Track 2: was a beautiful corner that may still be a beautiful corner but it's still a (58:34):
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Track 2: corner right where you feel a responsibility and. (58:38):
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Track 2: For the thing and the structure that you have built and it's (58:42):
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Track 2: tightly connected to your personality and to (58:46):
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Track 2: your person so i can see how hard it (58:49):
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Track 2: must be for those people to break away (58:52):
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Track 2: jen did from topi and (58:55):
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Track 2: i was part of that and tom in the us was part of (58:58):
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Track 2: that also we had all had enough at about the same time (59:01):
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Track 2: so it was just like you know okay so this is this is (59:04):
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Track 2: it but jen of course liked to (59:07):
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Track 2: be that center of attention and also be kind of (59:10):
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Track 2: a you know magical teacher whatever so there was always that dynamic (59:12):
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Track 2: but no group per se whereas the (59:16):
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Track 2: others have very distinct groups that are very closely associated with them (59:19):
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Track 2: that way in the church of satan and you know bill breeze and the oto and others (59:24):
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Track 2: too so i think that yeah it's it's a bit of a trap you know you devote your (59:28):
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Track 2: life it's It's like this, they will call it bhakti yoga, (59:33):
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Track 2: you know, this devotion that's originally very creative, (59:37):
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Track 2: very satisfying, and very perhaps good for your own magical development. (59:40):
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Track 2: But then maybe the structure becomes too big, too much administration, (59:44):
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Track 2: too much other aspects of it, but you still feel that responsibility. (59:49):
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Track 2: You don't want to leave it. And I can relate to that because I've always been (59:53):
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Track 2: very interested in and active in stuff like that, administration of it, (59:58):
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Track 2: making things solid and growing, boring stuff, basically. (01:00:03):
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Track 2: But that's part of the life also. (01:00:06):
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Track 1: Right. Well, the occult world needs people that are willing to do boring administrative work. (01:00:08):
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Track 1: And in my experience, those people and people who are good at actual social (01:00:14):
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Track 1: organizing tend to go really, really far, (01:00:18):
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Track 1: particularly in organizations, because they're actually doing the actual unglamorous (01:00:21):
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Track 1: day-to-day work of maintaining an organization with some very often with some (01:00:26):
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Track 1: very volatile personalities in it. (01:00:31):
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Track 1: And that's not an incredibly thankless job and not an easy job. (01:00:34):
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Track 1: I admire people who do it. (01:00:39):
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Track 1: Well, let's see. You probably, you might, it sounds like you might be running out of time here, but... (01:00:42):
undefined

Track 1: Tell us anything we didn't cover that you would like people to know about the (01:00:47):
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Track 1: book, if we missed anything, and where to get it, and where to find out more about you. (01:00:52):
undefined

Track 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's available everywhere. You know, that's the standard answer. (01:00:56):
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Track 2: Amazon, Barnes & Noble, wherever people get their books. but (01:01:02):
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Track 2: i think that that one of the things that i wanted to do with (01:01:05):
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Track 2: the book was not only tell the story of a you know in (01:01:08):
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Track 2: a chronological sense i met this person that person (01:01:11):
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Track 2: i have tried to weave in another aspect (01:01:14):
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Track 2: that's been very central to me and that (01:01:17):
undefined

Track 2: people who know me know that and that's the artistic (01:01:20):
undefined

Track 2: or creative aspect that they are so connected (01:01:23):
undefined

Track 2: it's not they're not separate and on i (01:01:27):
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Track 2: started weaving in actually from (01:01:30):
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Track 2: the get-go when i started to express myself in a creative way (01:01:33):
undefined

Track 2: magic was there from the get-go there was always (01:01:37):
undefined

Track 2: magical intent in the lyrics there were frequencies actively (01:01:39):
undefined

Track 2: put in the music etc etc and then (01:01:43):
undefined

Track 2: when i started writing fiction and also even journalism it (01:01:46):
undefined

Track 2: was all about magical intent and that's i (01:01:49):
undefined

Track 2: think is a kind of unique perspective of (01:01:53):
undefined

Track 2: a magical memoir in a way in that i've included (01:01:56):
undefined

Track 2: stuff reflecting my own individuation (01:01:59):
undefined

Track 2: my own development as being a creative person (01:02:02):
undefined

Track 2: who is also magician or vice versa and (01:02:05):
undefined

Track 2: i think that will appeal to people who are interested in not necessarily experimental (01:02:09):
undefined

Track 2: art but just art that is very personal that is not art world art could be seen (01:02:14):
undefined

Track 2: as outsider art or art with a sense of integrity as the backbone, in a way. (01:02:19):
undefined

Track 1: Awesome. And where can people go on the web to find out more about you? (01:02:26):
undefined

Track 2: I think the best way, the gateway, is simply my first and last name, KarlAbrahamsson.com. (01:02:31):
undefined

Track 2: Karl with a C, Abrahamsson with two S's, dot com. (01:02:40):
undefined

Track 1: Very good. All right, well, the book is Meetings with Remarkable Magicians. (01:02:44):
undefined

Track 1: Thank you for being back on the show, Karl. that was a great conversation and (01:02:48):
undefined

Track 1: i hope you have a great next thing that you're rushing off to yeah thanks jason okay and. (01:02:52):
undefined

Track 2: Until the next time. (01:02:58):
undefined

Track 1: All right bye. (01:02:59):
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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}Ep. 224: Meetings with Remarkable Magicians & Life in the Occult Underground With Carl Abrahamsson

Episode Transcript

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Ep. 224: Meetings with Remarkable Magicians & Life in the Occult Underground With Carl Abrahamsson

On Purpose with Jay Shetty