Ep. 225: The Medicine Wheel Unveiled with Carlos Glover

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker1: Yes, hello, it's Jason Louv. Welcome back to the Ultraculture Podcast. (00:00):
undefined

Speaker1: Let's talk about Magic.me, my school for magic, meditation, and mysticism. (00:05):
undefined

Speaker1: It is now 10 years since I've begun this school, and it has been a resounding (00:12):
undefined

Speaker1: success. It is a platform that I built where you can learn magic and meditation (00:17):
undefined

Speaker1: anywhere on your own timeline. (00:21):
undefined

Speaker1: You can tap into thousands of video lessons on the core teachings of the world's (00:24):
undefined

Speaker1: sacred traditions and supercharge your life with empowerment, clarity, and purpose. (00:28):
undefined

Speaker1: You can stream in HD to any device, and you can binge or take bite-sized units (00:35):
undefined

Speaker1: one by one. You can learn the entire span of skills from the Western esoteric (00:40):
undefined

Speaker1: tradition there, as well as the Eastern esoteric traditions. (00:45):
undefined

Speaker1: This is, at this point, kind of my life's work. (00:49):
undefined

Speaker1: In addition to my writing and my books, this is the school that I built to give (00:52):
undefined

Speaker1: people good information on magic, information that can actually help you in your life, (00:57):
undefined

Speaker1: help you even in stressful moments like the one we're currently experiencing, (01:02):
undefined

Speaker1: stressful economic climates. (01:07):
undefined

Speaker1: I built this school so that you can (01:09):
undefined

Speaker1: become a magician and quickly so that you can get to the good stuff so that (01:12):
undefined

Speaker1: you can enjoy your life because life is short and life is way too short to spend (01:17):
undefined

Speaker1: 20 years like many of us did wading through books and gurus and experiences (01:22):
undefined

Speaker1: and all that to try and get to the good stuff. (01:28):
undefined

Speaker1: You can just have the good stuff. I provided it for you. (01:32):
undefined

Speaker1: It's all at magic.me m-a-g-i-c-k dot (01:34):
undefined

Speaker1: m-e if you want the real stuff without (01:38):
undefined

Speaker1: any bullshit from online influencers without any (01:42):
undefined

Speaker1: spooky satanic nonsense on it without (01:45):
undefined

Speaker1: actually without any dogma or belief required at all you just want the skills (01:48):
undefined

Speaker1: so that you can test it for yourself and see if you if it works for you or not (01:54):
undefined

Speaker1: if it's a tool that you think will help you in your life get it at magic dot (01:58):
undefined

Speaker1: me i've really cut the Gordian knot on this one. (02:02):
undefined

Speaker1: And, and this is one of the many topics of controversy in my life that I have (02:06):
undefined

Speaker1: kind of opened the doors and spilled the beans to the mysteries, (02:12):
undefined

Speaker1: but it's all there for you to use responsibly. (02:15):
undefined

Speaker1: All right. It's magic.me, M-A-G-I-C-K.me, ever in progress, ever developing, ever improving. (02:18):
undefined

Speaker1: You can check out some of our best courses in the Start Learning Magic Package, (02:27):
undefined

Speaker1: which will give you a subscription to all of our basic level courses, (02:31):
undefined

Speaker1: everything, almost 20 courses on all of the topics from tarot and finding your (02:35):
undefined

Speaker1: true will to astral projection and meditation and chaos magic and all that good stuff. (02:41):
undefined

Speaker1: We also have pro-level courses like the ADAPT Initiative, the Alchemy of Chaos, (02:47):
undefined

Speaker1: Mastering Meditation, which are intensives. (02:52):
undefined

Speaker1: They're six-week processes. If you really want to commit, (02:55):
undefined

Speaker1: really want to get down to brass tacks and really push yourself to practice (02:59):
undefined

Speaker1: and completely transform your life, (03:04):
undefined

Speaker1: I guarantee that six weeks of consistent magic with expert tutelage from me (03:06):
undefined

Speaker1: and others will get you from zero to 60 in ways that will change your life for (03:13):
undefined

Speaker1: better for the rest of your life. (03:19):
undefined

Speaker1: Of course, it's a no risk proposition. I have money back guarantees on all of my courses. (03:21):
undefined

Speaker1: And so you have nothing to risk. If you think you don't have the time, believe me, you do. (03:27):
undefined

Speaker1: You can take these courses even in five-minute bite-sized units and level up (03:33):
undefined

Speaker1: your skills, level up your life, and become who you were meant to be. (03:39):
undefined

Speaker1: Because let's just set all this aside for a second. (03:43):
undefined

Speaker1: Magic, mysticism, runes, those are incredible, incredible tools if they are (03:47):
undefined

Speaker1: used for the right reason. (03:52):
undefined

Speaker1: And that reason and the reason that they are given at magic.me is for you to (03:54):
undefined

Speaker1: discover your true will, your true self, your true reason for existing. (03:58):
undefined

Speaker1: And when you get down to that, the doors of the world of magic open almost effortlessly. (04:02):
undefined

Speaker1: And then you understand why there are all these tools. (04:08):
undefined

Speaker1: It gets so confusing. You go into the occult bookstore online and there's all (04:12):
undefined

Speaker1: this stuff, all these traditions from all over the world, all these tools. (04:16):
undefined

Speaker1: And it's, it's too much. You need someone to guide you through that thicket (04:20):
undefined

Speaker1: and get you to the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow, which is discovering your true self. (04:25):
undefined

Speaker1: It's an incredible school with a group of incredible students who are always (04:31):
undefined

Speaker1: positive and helping each other out. (04:36):
undefined

Speaker1: There's a real sense of community around it. People have made lifelong friendships. (04:37):
undefined

Speaker1: People have completely turned their financial destiny around. (04:41):
undefined

Speaker1: It's pretty amazing and very humbling for me to see students' success. (04:45):
undefined

Speaker1: So it's all there waiting for you. (04:49):
undefined

Speaker1: Magic.me, M-A-G-I-C-K.me. (04:51):
undefined

Speaker1: Join the community and I will see you in class. (04:55):
undefined

Speaker1: All right, let's get into it. (04:59):
undefined

Music: Music (05:01):
undefined

Speaker1: Well, wonderful to meet you. Let's just jump straight into it. (05:08):
undefined

Speaker1: Please tell us about who you are and your latest project. (05:11):
undefined

Speaker0: Yeah, well, I'm Carlos, and I'm launching a book called Earth Wisdom Teachings, (05:16):
undefined

Speaker0: which is practical guidance from the eight directions to the medicine wheel. (05:21):
undefined

Speaker0: I've been studying earth wisdom for nearly 40 years, (05:26):
undefined

Speaker0: following that path, now sharing it with (05:32):
undefined

Speaker0: interested people and creating journeys (05:35):
undefined

Speaker0: and ceremonies to take people into deep levels of consciousness to grow to learn (05:39):
undefined

Speaker0: and to come into alignment with self life and our planet so that's my main thing (05:44):
undefined

Speaker0: that i'm doing in life at the moment so. (05:55):
undefined

Speaker1: Maybe describe one of these sessions so you lead people through these sessions (05:57):
undefined

Speaker0: Yes well the sessions (06:01):
undefined

Speaker0: might last for a day or (06:04):
undefined

Speaker0: up to six days at the moment and so (06:07):
undefined

Speaker0: we create a kind of energetic container for (06:10):
undefined

Speaker0: people to drop deeply into so there are certain kind of ritual actions that (06:14):
undefined

Speaker0: we'll do at the beginning to kind of step into a deeper space in ourselves and (06:19):
undefined

Speaker0: then we'll probably introduce some teaching or an activity for people to dive (06:25):
undefined

Speaker0: into and have an experience. (06:31):
undefined

Speaker0: And so ultimately what people learn is, between them, the great mystery. (06:34):
undefined

Speaker0: But we're also guiding and opening certain aspects of human consciousness from (06:41):
undefined

Speaker0: the map that we're working from. (06:48):
undefined

Speaker1: What aspects of consciousness are you trying to open? (06:51):
undefined

Speaker0: Well i'm using the medicine wheel (06:53):
undefined

Speaker0: as the map and it shows us eight intelligences or (06:56):
undefined

Speaker0: eight realms of consciousness that we (07:01):
undefined

Speaker0: all have they're universal realms of (07:03):
undefined

Speaker0: consciousness in other words they're in the universe but (07:07):
undefined

Speaker0: they're also in human beings so this map speaks about these eight i've spoken (07:10):
undefined

Speaker0: about them in the book earth wisdom teachings there are like eight sections (07:16):
undefined

Speaker0: to explore each one and i don't know if you want me to go into them one by one or why. (07:21):
undefined

Speaker1: Don't we start off with talking about what the medicine wheel is for those who (07:28):
undefined

Speaker1: don't have knowledge of it or experience with it because it comes up maybe maybe (07:31):
undefined

Speaker1: talk about where that is and what that is and where it comes from also (07:37):
undefined

Speaker0: Yeah well. (07:40):
undefined

Speaker0: I mean, essentially, it comes from North America, what we call North America. (07:43):
undefined

Speaker0: But there have been stone circles all over the world. (07:48):
undefined

Speaker0: Of course, we all know about Stonehenge. But on every continent except Antarctica, (07:51):
undefined

Speaker0: people have built circles of stone for different purposes, probably different lineages of teaching. (07:57):
undefined

Speaker0: And the medicine wheel (08:04):
undefined

Speaker0: so the medicine is like a design a (08:07):
undefined

Speaker0: circular design that can teach us about wholeness because it shows us the relationship (08:11):
undefined

Speaker0: between different things so a basic foundational medicine wheel would say well (08:17):
undefined

Speaker0: in one direction is the sun actually in the east when sun rises. (08:23):
undefined

Speaker0: Opposite that in the west the earth and in (08:28):
undefined

Speaker0: the south of the wheel is the sacred plants in the north the animals and we (08:32):
undefined

Speaker0: humans are in the middle of that so we're surrounded by these different aspects (08:39):
undefined

Speaker0: of creation and each of those also corresponds to other teachings of the medicine wheel, (08:45):
undefined

Speaker0: other medicine wheel teachings can correspond to that. (08:52):
undefined

Speaker0: So it shows us also about aspects of ourself, our spirit, our body, (08:56):
undefined

Speaker0: emotion, and our heart-mind. (09:01):
undefined

Speaker0: So it's a profound body of teaching. (09:04):
undefined

Speaker0: It shows deeper and deeper layers about our consciousness and the journey that we can go to awaken. (09:08):
undefined

Speaker1: So is this from a specific Native American tribe? (09:15):
undefined

Speaker0: It's not from a specific tribe, no. (09:18):
undefined

Speaker0: It flourished in Mexico, in the Yucatan, and there were people who carried that (09:21):
undefined

Speaker0: wisdom to the north, to various tribes, to people who were interested. (09:27):
undefined

Speaker0: But it was never part of one particular culture. Actually, I think they also (09:31):
undefined

Speaker0: gathered wisdom from different cultures. (09:36):
undefined

Speaker0: And then when europeans conquered north (09:38):
undefined

Speaker0: america a lot of the wise people were killed deliberately (09:42):
undefined

Speaker0: as an active policy and so (09:46):
undefined

Speaker0: those teachings were kept in they went (09:49):
undefined

Speaker0: into secret they were kept very (09:52):
undefined

Speaker0: very secretly one particular teacher went (09:55):
undefined

Speaker0: to the north of canada and in time (09:58):
undefined

Speaker0: she had an apprentice who learnt from (10:02):
undefined

Speaker0: her who passed the teachings on then (10:05):
undefined

Speaker0: in about 1970 it was decided (10:09):
undefined

Speaker0: that they could be given out to interested people it (10:12):
undefined

Speaker0: was safe now so now they're more (10:15):
undefined

Speaker0: coming into the public domain but people who are interested it's not not like (10:19):
undefined

Speaker0: a religion that's wanting to get converts and convert people or proselytize (10:25):
undefined

Speaker0: but really for interested people and i happen to be interested so that's why i'm here so. (10:30):
undefined

Speaker1: Assume i know nothing and i actually don't i don't (10:40):
undefined

Speaker1: know anything about the medicine wheel so but about you know (10:43):
undefined

Speaker1: shamanic things and as a standard western person what states of consciousness (10:46):
undefined

Speaker1: is this a map to is it a deepening of self-understanding or where where where (10:54):
undefined

Speaker1: does this take where would this take (11:02):
undefined

Speaker0: Me well one thing (11:03):
undefined

Speaker0: i'd say at the beginning is that coming into self-understanding (11:06):
undefined

Speaker0: it also corresponds with our (11:10):
undefined

Speaker0: relationship with the earth and all her expressions not (11:13):
undefined

Speaker0: just human expressions so it's also (11:17):
undefined

Speaker0: about our relationship with the earth and the universe really so coming into (11:20):
undefined

Speaker0: a deeper relationship with our self coming to know our self is also parallel (11:25):
undefined

Speaker0: with coming to know the universe and so the states of consciousness well, (11:31):
undefined

Speaker0: I don't know what adjectives necessarily to use, but often in regular, (11:39):
undefined

Speaker0: everyday, daily consciousness, typically we may be thinking a lot with our brain. (11:45):
undefined

Speaker0: And so how do we quieten the thinking of the brain-mind? (11:53):
undefined

Speaker0: Once we come into more stillness and into the silence of the mind, (11:58):
undefined

Speaker0: that kind of opens a door into a deeper relationship with the universe. (12:04):
undefined

Speaker0: Because we're no longer kind of filtering it with our thinking. (12:08):
undefined

Speaker0: So that would be one way of starting to open these deeper levels of consciousness. (12:12):
undefined

Speaker0: And that's actually represented in one direction of the medicine wheel in the southeast. (12:17):
undefined

Speaker0: Opposite that is the northwest, which is more about how our consciousness, (12:24):
undefined

Speaker0: because we're interrelated with all of life, (12:30):
undefined

Speaker0: how our consciousness actually affects (12:33):
undefined

Speaker0: the field around us in other words so how we (12:37):
undefined

Speaker0: think how we speak how we (12:39):
undefined

Speaker0: act it has effects and that's obvious when we think about our actions you know (12:42):
undefined

Speaker0: we i know we turn the tap on force it on the water comes out or we put the kettle (12:48):
undefined

Speaker0: on later it boils that's obvious that's an action but also our thinking and (12:53):
undefined

Speaker0: the thoughts that we're holding, (12:59):
undefined

Speaker0: they also affect our whole system. (13:01):
undefined

Speaker0: And subtly, they affect the field of consciousness around us. (13:04):
undefined

Speaker0: So that's two kind of realms of consciousness that these eight directions are talking about. (13:10):
undefined

Speaker1: That's very interesting because, you know, my background is in Western magic (13:17):
undefined

Speaker1: and also a lot of the Eastern traditions. I don't know too much about indigenous. (13:21):
undefined

Speaker1: But to me, that It sounds like the first one is it sounds like meditation and (13:25):
undefined

Speaker1: going deep into the self. (13:30):
undefined

Speaker1: And the second one sounds like, I guess we could call magic, (13:31):
undefined

Speaker1: which is understanding, you know, one is quieting your thoughts and the other (13:34):
undefined

Speaker1: one is controlling your thoughts to affect reality around you. (13:37):
undefined

Speaker1: So those both make sense to me. (13:41):
undefined

Speaker1: Through my traditions that seems pretty straightforward does that seem sound (13:44):
undefined

Speaker1: about right to you my my mirroring back of that (13:49):
undefined

Speaker0: I i think so i think uh meditation is certainly a way of coming into the present (13:52):
undefined

Speaker0: moment and it's a tool so any kind of meditation that brings us into more stillness (13:58):
undefined

Speaker0: into a silence of the mind that that yeah i would call that meditation, (14:05):
undefined

Speaker0: or we could say there might be states of consciousness that we could call contemplation (14:11):
undefined

Speaker0: which is not exactly the same as meditation but it's certainly the level of (14:18):
undefined

Speaker0: brain activity it's a lot less than the ordinary you know running around town shopping so yeah. (14:23):
undefined

Speaker1: I'm glad you brought that up because that's a technical distinction that you (14:30):
undefined

Speaker1: don't hear people talk about much, mostly because I think contemplation is more (14:34):
undefined

Speaker1: of a Christian meditation concept, where that word is often used for it. (14:38):
undefined

Speaker1: But that's a very good distinction to make. (14:42):
undefined

Speaker1: Would you describe the difference between those two states of consciousness, (14:45):
undefined

Speaker1: meditation and contemplation? (14:48):
undefined

Speaker0: Yeah, that's a great question. I would say, you know, meditation is really coming (14:51):
undefined

Speaker0: into silence of the mind. (14:58):
undefined

Speaker0: I mean, of course, for many different forms of meditation. (15:00):
undefined

Speaker0: And actually, people are using that term very broadly in different ways at the moment. (15:03):
undefined

Speaker0: Similarly, coming fully into the present moment and into silence is meditation. (15:11):
undefined

Speaker0: I think one of the things, and having been involved in meditation for a long (15:19):
undefined

Speaker0: time, I was meditating with the Buddhists, Theravada, Vipassana meditation for (15:23):
undefined

Speaker0: a long time. I still do that, actually. (15:31):
undefined

Speaker0: That's part of my regular practice but at (15:33):
undefined

Speaker0: the beginning i was thinking if i meditate i will (15:37):
undefined

Speaker0: get somewhere i'll get better at meditating or maybe i'll get enlightened you (15:40):
undefined

Speaker0: know maybe if i do this long enough i don't know how long it takes you know (15:46):
undefined

Speaker0: maybe if i sit in meditation for a week i'll be enlightened and i realized there's (15:50):
undefined

Speaker0: a little trap in that yes we might improve, (15:54):
undefined

Speaker0: concentration might improve but there's a trap in that we're not really fully (15:58):
undefined

Speaker0: present because we're looking at the goal of being somewhere else. (16:03):
undefined

Speaker0: And I would say that contemplation is more like going into a deep state. (16:07):
undefined

Speaker0: It's not absolute silence, but you might be holding a question and seeing what (16:12):
undefined

Speaker0: emerges from the depths of your psyche in response to that question, maybe more questions. (16:19):
undefined

Speaker0: And typically in this way of earth wisdom, we might do that while sitting out in nature. (16:27):
undefined

Speaker0: So there's a sense that in a way nature is also communicating with us if we're (16:34):
undefined

Speaker0: able to hear it usually we can't hear it very well because we're thinking a lot. (16:39):
undefined

Speaker1: So i love that you brought up vipassana because i was (16:43):
undefined

Speaker1: actually going to mention that i'm not a consistent vipassana meditator (16:46):
undefined

Speaker1: But i went on a 10-day retreat and it was a (16:49):
undefined

Speaker1: profound experience and one that (16:52):
undefined

Speaker1: for a lot of reasons as you can imagine it was (16:55):
undefined

Speaker1: out in the desert in in palm spring or not excuse me (16:58):
undefined

Speaker1: in in joshua tree in southern california (17:02):
undefined

Speaker1: one thing that i realized at (17:05):
undefined

Speaker1: the end is that what is (17:08):
undefined

Speaker1: what you're saying which is it's not just like turn about (17:10):
undefined

Speaker1: the mind it's not just turning off the mind it's when when (17:13):
undefined

Speaker1: we get out of the mind and back into the body then we (17:16):
undefined

Speaker1: realize how separate we've been from nature also yeah (17:20):
undefined

Speaker1: in every sense of the word our own nature the (17:23):
undefined

Speaker1: name but also the nature around us and it's interesting (17:26):
undefined

Speaker1: because one of the themes that's been kind of coming out (17:29):
undefined

Speaker1: in this podcast over the last year or so is (17:32):
undefined

Speaker1: the idea that i think in (17:36):
undefined

Speaker1: the western traditions and i (17:39):
undefined

Speaker1: talked to a guy named john michael greer about this in the (17:41):
undefined

Speaker1: western traditions the biggest thing (17:44):
undefined

Speaker1: that's missing is a sense of place and connection to (17:47):
undefined

Speaker1: local place and not not just nature but the (17:50):
undefined

Speaker1: specific nature around you and that place is (17:53):
undefined

Speaker1: actually quite important and i think that you (17:55):
undefined

Speaker1: know western people are of course a bit out of touch with the cycles of nature (17:59):
undefined

Speaker1: to say the least but is it so because i think that that that seems to be a something (18:02):
undefined

Speaker1: that you don't hear people talking about a whole lot i think that people pay (18:08):
undefined

Speaker1: lip service to the idea of getting back into nature but understanding that But for me, (18:11):
undefined

Speaker1: Deep states of meditation will basically, (18:17):
undefined

Speaker1: Let me put it this way, when I meditated for 10 days, it took me 10 days for (18:22):
undefined

Speaker1: my brain to calm down enough just to remember that I'm actually part of the physical world. (18:26):
undefined

Speaker0: Yeah. (18:32):
undefined

Speaker1: Put it that way to make it as simple as possible. And that was an interesting experience. (18:33):
undefined

Speaker0: Yeah. Yeah, I've had that experience on long meditation retreats. (18:37):
undefined

Speaker0: It does take time to really, really drop. (18:42):
undefined

Speaker0: And you know perhaps on day two or three there's a kind of tiredness a dullness (18:45):
undefined

Speaker0: that can come up and then you start to go through that, (18:51):
undefined

Speaker0: can be a pattern so even though (18:55):
undefined

Speaker0: i said i stand by what i said about trying (18:58):
undefined

Speaker0: not to think about where you're going to get through meditation it does progress (19:02):
undefined

Speaker0: and i think daniel goldman has done research on the effect of meditating for (19:08):
undefined

Speaker0: like six times a day it does begin to change the structures of the brain so yeah. (19:15):
undefined

Speaker1: Let me ask you a left field question just because i've noticed this in a couple (19:21):
undefined

Speaker1: different places in context okay so it sounds like in your tradition you do (19:25):
undefined

Speaker1: a lot of meditating maybe outside in (19:29):
undefined

Speaker0: Nature or. (19:31):
undefined

Speaker1: In specific places you go to consistently (19:32):
undefined

Speaker0: Yes but i mean i would say that my (19:35):
undefined

Speaker0: practice isn't strictly about meditation (19:38):
undefined

Speaker0: it's also about coming into the present moment on (19:41):
undefined

Speaker0: a regular basis so if i'm (19:45):
undefined

Speaker0: now i this is it's all (19:48):
undefined

Speaker0: about discipline really so for example (19:52):
undefined

Speaker0: when i step into my car and (19:54):
undefined

Speaker0: sit in the car then if i'm really (19:58):
undefined

Speaker0: practicing then i might take a few moments before i (20:01):
undefined

Speaker0: actually start it and then when i drive off (20:04):
undefined

Speaker0: i'm not just listening to the radio or thinking my (20:07):
undefined

Speaker0: thoughts unless i choose to but i (20:10):
undefined

Speaker0: might be really paying attention to the driving (20:13):
undefined

Speaker0: so it's a kind of like a driving meditation i'm (20:16):
undefined

Speaker0: aware of the steering wheel the road the whole field of vision so it's kind (20:19):
undefined

Speaker0: of like i'm i'm practicing to be present wherever i am so there are practices (20:25):
undefined

Speaker0: of going and it's very helpful to go out into nature because there's a certain um. (20:33):
undefined

Speaker0: A beingness or a presence in nature that can draw us into our beingness and (20:41):
undefined

Speaker0: presence, especially when it's a pristine, unspoilt nature. (20:49):
undefined

Speaker0: There isn't so much of that where I live in England. I mean, (20:56):
undefined

Speaker0: I'm on the edge of a fairly, relatively wild area, but even that is farmed. (20:59):
undefined

Speaker0: There are people around it has been touched by (21:05):
undefined

Speaker0: humans but when you go in somewhere that's real wilderness that can have a real (21:09):
undefined

Speaker0: effect of drawing you into the primordial self if you like or the primordial (21:13):
undefined

Speaker0: consciousness that we were born with because that is primordial nature it's very precious. (21:21):
undefined

Speaker1: What i was going to ask you is have you ever noticed (21:27):
undefined

Speaker1: the phenomenon of particularly if (21:30):
undefined

Speaker1: you're meditating outside but particularly if it's a location that (21:34):
undefined

Speaker1: people are a lot of people are going to over an extended period of time and (21:36):
undefined

Speaker1: meditating like for instance a retreat center have you noticed the phenomenon (21:40):
undefined

Speaker1: of the natural world changing slightly around it like for instance flowers becoming (21:44):
undefined

Speaker1: more vivid or even animal you (21:50):
undefined

Speaker0: Froze there for a moment i missed what you said. (21:54):
undefined

Speaker1: So i was like have you ever noticed the phenomenon of local nature changing (21:57):
undefined

Speaker1: around those areas like for instance flowers becoming more vivid or even like (22:01):
undefined

Speaker1: small wildlife becoming more colorful or the weather changing to match meditation patterns well (22:06):
undefined

Speaker0: That's very interesting i can't say that i have, (22:13):
undefined

Speaker0: When you say things becoming more colorful, I think our sense of color can be (22:17):
undefined

Speaker0: enhanced by coming into presence. (22:22):
undefined

Speaker1: That might be it. But I've seen this a couple places, and it seems to be the (22:25):
undefined

Speaker1: physical structure of things. Anyways, a bit of a tangent. (22:29):
undefined

Speaker0: Very interesting. I'll look into that. (22:33):
undefined

Speaker1: So you mentioned two of the directions. What are the other directions on the medicine wheel? (22:36):
undefined

Speaker0: Right. Well, they all have multiple layers. So I think I'll start with the other (22:41):
undefined

Speaker0: non-cardinal directions. (22:47):
undefined

Speaker0: The Southwest, actually, we could say the Southeast coming into presence, (22:49):
undefined

Speaker0: we could say that's like, sometimes we call it the first attention, (22:55):
undefined

Speaker0: and it's about training our attention to be present. (23:00):
undefined

Speaker0: So once we're able to be more present, then in the Southwest, (23:03):
undefined

Speaker0: we can notice what thoughts are trying to come up. (23:08):
undefined

Speaker0: We're more aware of our thoughts because we've (23:12):
undefined

Speaker0: actually practiced meditation coming to the present moment (23:15):
undefined

Speaker0: we can notice what thoughts are trying to come up and we (23:18):
undefined

Speaker0: can be more aware of our purpose so (23:23):
undefined

Speaker0: the southwest is all about our purpose and it (23:26):
undefined

Speaker0: could be i mean everything has a purpose (23:30):
undefined

Speaker0: in a sense is to grow into its fullness like (23:33):
undefined

Speaker0: you know an acorn wants to (23:37):
undefined

Speaker0: grow into an oak tree and each (23:39):
undefined

Speaker0: of us as human beings we want to grow into our fullness from being children (23:42):
undefined

Speaker0: we grow into our fullness and each one of us is unique so it's maybe slightly (23:47):
undefined

Speaker0: different for each person what our individual gift is and what we're what we're (23:52):
undefined

Speaker0: bringing to life so the southwest is about. (23:58):
undefined

Speaker0: Coming into that deeper sense of what our spirit is yearning for, (24:03):
undefined

Speaker0: what we really want to bring to life. (24:10):
undefined

Speaker0: And when we start to hear that deep voice inside, it's like an underground river. (24:13):
undefined

Speaker0: If we take time to go into nature, meditate, be alone for a long time, (24:19):
undefined

Speaker0: we start to hear the spirit voice, what it is that we want to do with our life at this time. (24:24):
undefined

Speaker0: Then the thoughts that we're having you know (24:29):
undefined

Speaker0: are they in alignment with that or are they (24:32):
undefined

Speaker0: distracting us are they taking us in a different (24:35):
undefined

Speaker0: direction so the southwest as i (24:38):
undefined

Speaker0: say multiple layers but it's also about identifying (24:41):
undefined

Speaker0: our gift to life and following that part (24:45):
undefined

Speaker0: and then opposite that in the (24:48):
undefined

Speaker0: northeast it's about energy (24:51):
undefined

Speaker0: recognizing our own energy (24:54):
undefined

Speaker0: recognizing that we live in a (24:58):
undefined

Speaker0: vast ocean of energy consciousness and (25:01):
undefined

Speaker0: we are constantly affecting the energy (25:05):
undefined

Speaker0: around us and being affected by it but (25:08):
undefined

Speaker0: the more conscious we are of it the more we can (25:11):
undefined

Speaker0: shift and shape it so there's a (25:14):
undefined

Speaker0: ways of becoming more aware of the energies around us well the energies in us (25:18):
undefined

Speaker0: but also the energies around us and how to begin to work with those so that (25:24):
undefined

Speaker0: they can then evolve to a a greater level of consciousness really. (25:30):
undefined

Speaker0: That's interesting right now in the world we're affected by (25:38):
undefined

Speaker0: all this news about you know war climate change blah blah we're all being affected (25:40):
undefined

Speaker0: by that but how are we able to stand in the center of all this and begin to (25:45):
undefined

Speaker0: shape it so it takes us all to a new level of consciousness that's really what (25:51):
undefined

Speaker0: this work is about is evolution of consciousness your. (25:56):
undefined

Speaker1: Answer to that like how do we stand particularly now you know (25:59):
undefined

Speaker0: It's it's record. (26:03):
undefined

Speaker1: We're recording this october 2nd it appears to be world war three is starting (26:04):
undefined

Speaker1: yet again so it started like 17 times in the last two years three four years (26:07):
undefined

Speaker1: what is your answer to that in terms of standing in the middle of of all of (26:12):
undefined

Speaker1: that and beginning to work with it (26:16):
undefined

Speaker0: Yeah well i think it's (26:19):
undefined

Speaker0: very easy for us to get polarized i mean (26:22):
undefined

Speaker0: there are polarities in life naturally but it's (26:25):
undefined

Speaker0: very easy for us to identify with one side (26:29):
undefined

Speaker0: or the other and i'm not saying it (26:32):
undefined

Speaker0: isn't right to stand for what we believe in but when (26:35):
undefined

Speaker0: we are putting the other into the (26:38):
undefined

Speaker0: shadow then we're dividing okay i need to just back up and express this as clearly (26:41):
undefined

Speaker0: as possible i think there's a way that we can take the polarities and in ourselves (26:47):
undefined

Speaker0: at least begin to bring them together so so they're not so. (26:54):
undefined

Speaker0: So, for example, I'm going to, I wasn't going to go into politics, but I will. (27:00):
undefined

Speaker0: It's this situation that blew up in Gaza. And whether you say one side was right (27:05):
undefined

Speaker0: and the other was wrong, I don't know. (27:11):
undefined

Speaker0: But on one level, there were fanatics on both sides. (27:13):
undefined

Speaker0: There are fanatics on both sides from my perspective. (27:17):
undefined

Speaker0: So where is the fanatic in me? (27:20):
undefined

Speaker0: And how do I embrace both? you know (27:23):
undefined

Speaker0: both israel there was a lot of grief a (27:26):
undefined

Speaker0: lot of loss of life you know families torn apart the same on the other side (27:29):
undefined

Speaker0: can i open my heart and feel both sides you know i in as i speak about this (27:35):
undefined

Speaker0: i can feel the grief for both sides of the suffering that we're creating for (27:41):
undefined

Speaker0: ourselves so can I hold both together, (27:46):
undefined

Speaker0: holding that awareness might, on a subtle level, begin to shift the whole field. (27:50):
undefined

Speaker0: Now, we might not be able to tell that it's having an effect, (27:57):
undefined

Speaker0: but I believe it does affect the field. (28:01):
undefined

Speaker1: I think that's very, you know, regardless of, you know, that's a pretty loaded (28:04):
undefined

Speaker1: political situation. I mean, it's one that's on everyone's mind. (28:09):
undefined

Speaker1: But I think it was really interesting how you say it's an internal thing (28:12):
undefined

Speaker1: where even outside of this situation uh (28:15):
undefined

Speaker1: because you know i have my own thoughts on it just like everyone else but i (28:19):
undefined

Speaker1: think that the idea that (28:22):
undefined

Speaker1: the work is in of of how did (28:25):
undefined

Speaker1: you put it of kind of trying to hold both positions internally (28:28):
undefined

Speaker1: and do work on that internally you know (28:32):
undefined

Speaker1: i i we like to think i think that's (28:35):
undefined

Speaker1: very beautiful and i i think that sometimes that's all (28:37):
undefined

Speaker1: we can do and we like to hope i think at (28:40):
undefined

Speaker1: least as spiritual people that that has (28:43):
undefined

Speaker1: an effect but but you know certainly it's (28:46):
undefined

Speaker1: better than you know cause trying to cause (28:49):
undefined

Speaker1: more violence i suppose but i think (28:52):
undefined

Speaker1: that the the interesting part you know the most interesting part there of what (28:56):
undefined

Speaker1: you just said is trying to find the fanatic within yourself and where you're (28:59):
undefined

Speaker1: in resonance or not with things it's certainly a call to self-awareness i think (29:03):
undefined

Speaker1: there's not a a whole lot of self-awareness these days i don't know that sounded (29:08):
undefined

Speaker1: like salad but yeah on my end i (29:11):
undefined

Speaker0: Mean i'm not saying i'm always there i'm on a journey too you know i have an (29:15):
undefined

Speaker0: ego i get reactive i get furious with people i hear about you know but then (29:20):
undefined

Speaker0: if i go deeper into it and see well where how am i like that, (29:26):
undefined

Speaker0: There is a bigger perspective to hold the wholeness. (29:33):
undefined

Speaker1: Sometimes that's all we can do, I think. And maybe it has an effect, maybe it doesn't. (29:37):
undefined

Speaker1: But sometimes that's kind of all we can do. (29:43):
undefined

Speaker0: Yeah. Yeah, that's right. (29:46):
undefined

Speaker1: Yeah. One of the things that I thought was really interesting about what you (29:48):
undefined

Speaker1: were describing in terms of the directionality, (29:54):
undefined

Speaker1: which is interesting that you see that a lot in shamanic cultures of things (29:56):
undefined

Speaker1: being attributed to the directions, is it's not necessarily hierarchical. (30:00):
undefined

Speaker1: Maybe it is in a different fashion, but you mentioned, for instance, (30:05):
undefined

Speaker1: finding one's true self in one corner, energy in the other. (30:10):
undefined

Speaker1: In the Western systems, those things are stacked and hierarchical. (30:13):
undefined

Speaker1: One is higher than the other and so forth. But this sounds like more of something (30:16):
undefined

Speaker1: perhaps that you need to attend to all of those things and balance them within (30:21):
undefined

Speaker1: yourself, which might be a better perspective on things, more practical. (30:24):
undefined

Speaker0: Yeah, well, I think they're all interconnected. it's just looking (30:28):
undefined

Speaker0: at them on a wheel you can see that they're in relationship so (30:32):
undefined

Speaker0: i need to take care of my body just as much as i (30:35):
undefined

Speaker0: need to take care of my spirit there is one place where there is hierarchy and (30:38):
undefined

Speaker0: we could say that in the center of the circle there is a sense of uh you know (30:43):
undefined

Speaker0: the essence self the essence of me so there is there is that sense also and (30:48):
undefined

Speaker0: then around the ounce around the periphery, there are these, (30:54):
undefined

Speaker0: you know, what we were just talking about with, you know, ego, (30:57):
undefined

Speaker0: separation, these states that take us into separation from each other from life. (31:01):
undefined

Speaker0: So how can I command those states? How can I command my own consciousness to (31:05):
undefined

Speaker0: enter into a bigger state, knowing that that will have a better effect on the (31:11):
undefined

Speaker0: field and on the whole world? (31:16):
undefined

Speaker1: So talk about that then. How do you do that? (31:18):
undefined

Speaker0: Well, I was talking about the Northwest and how our thoughts, (31:23):
undefined

Speaker0: words, and actions, they ripple out and they have an effect on the world around us. (31:27):
undefined

Speaker0: So we have to look at what are we sending into the world. (31:32):
undefined

Speaker0: And we need the awareness. We need to have the presence of mind to be able to (31:38):
undefined

Speaker0: be aware of what we're sending. What thoughts am I holding? (31:43):
undefined

Speaker0: And it could be any situation. I mean, I could walk into a restaurant and think, (31:47):
undefined

Speaker0: you know, this restaurant's terrible. (31:52):
undefined

Speaker0: The food's bad. The service is bad. We don't really care. (31:54):
undefined

Speaker0: Or I could walk into the same restaurant and think, I'm really open. (31:58):
undefined

Speaker0: You know, I can take my time. I'm not in a hurry. They're good people. (32:02):
undefined

Speaker0: And I'm going to enjoy my food. Now, I'll have two different experiences myself. (32:07):
undefined

Speaker0: But I now can't do a scientific experiment on this. But in my imagination, (32:14):
undefined

Speaker0: I believe the second attitude, I'll get better service, actually. (32:20):
undefined

Speaker1: So I think in the service industry would agree. I mean, no one likes serving (32:24):
undefined

Speaker1: somebody with a bad attitude. (32:29):
undefined

Speaker0: Yeah. (32:31):
undefined

Speaker1: And yeah, I mean, that's a very straightforward example. (32:32):
undefined

Speaker1: I think, you know, for me, the most immediate feedback, like for me, I think that that's, (32:35):
undefined

Speaker1: you know, spirituality aside, That's that skill that you're talking about or (32:42):
undefined

Speaker1: that faculty of being able to decide what type of experience, (32:47):
undefined

Speaker1: being able to understanding that perception is a choice and decide to react (32:50):
undefined

Speaker1: to situations is really just kind of a core skill or maybe the core skill of human life. (32:57):
undefined

Speaker1: Because at the end of the day, we can't actually control anything except for that. (33:02):
undefined

Speaker1: That can be pretty tricky for me the you know (33:08):
undefined

Speaker1: for me the biggest thing in the let (33:11):
undefined

Speaker1: me put it the fastest feedback loop for (33:14):
undefined

Speaker1: that is relationships you know where non-stop where (33:18):
undefined

Speaker1: you have to decide how you're going to interpret comments or (33:22):
undefined

Speaker1: you know what what energy you're going to bring to a relationship because it's (33:25):
undefined

Speaker1: it's a it can be an immediate feedback loop so i think that life is always trying (33:29):
undefined

Speaker1: to teach us that message and it's easy to forget that message sometimes particularly (33:35):
undefined

Speaker1: in stressful moments like like you know stressful global situations (33:39):
undefined

Speaker0: Yeah well stress lowers our awareness doesn't (33:43):
undefined

Speaker0: it i mean the more anxiety there is you (33:46):
undefined

Speaker0: know the less awareness generally speaking but yeah (33:50):
undefined

Speaker0: i was looking at the book again today and one of (33:53):
undefined

Speaker0: the stories i tell in the book is of an argument i (33:57):
undefined

Speaker0: was having with my wife now i can't even (34:00):
undefined

Speaker0: remember what that was about but we (34:03):
undefined

Speaker0: were doing our usual thing you know (34:06):
undefined

Speaker0: and it was getting more and more intense well you (34:09):
undefined

Speaker0: do it yeah but you do that yeah and (34:13):
undefined

Speaker0: i was kind of backing up i can remember she was on the (34:19):
undefined

Speaker0: other side of the table and for some reason (34:21):
undefined

Speaker0: i suddenly thought you know what i love this woman (34:24):
undefined

Speaker0: and my energy (34:27):
undefined

Speaker0: changed just having that thought and somehow (34:30):
undefined

Speaker0: it changed the energy between us you (34:34):
undefined

Speaker0: know changing my energy changes the energy between us and (34:37):
undefined

Speaker0: some suddenly the whole thing was just calming down de-escalating i can't remember (34:41):
undefined

Speaker0: how it turned out but we came into agreement about it and you know it was okay (34:47):
undefined

Speaker0: So I didn't continue all the way down the path of being polarized in that. (34:52):
undefined

Speaker1: Great. (34:59):
undefined

Speaker0: You know, it just shows. And actually, commanding our state of consciousness, (35:00):
undefined

Speaker0: learning to do that, training ourselves to do that, it's a lifelong training. (35:06):
undefined

Speaker0: But the work that I do is all about that. Ultimately, that is the goal. (35:11):
undefined

Speaker0: Because as you say, that's the one thing we can command. We can affect that. (35:16):
undefined

Speaker0: And in a mysterious way, that affects what happens in our world around us. (35:22):
undefined

Speaker1: Yeah and we also we also (35:27):
undefined

Speaker1: can't escape that feedback loop no it's (35:30):
undefined

Speaker1: like you can stop doing you know i think everyone has a different way of looking (35:34):
undefined

Speaker1: at this i mean this is people do this with cognitive behavioral therapy as well (35:38):
undefined

Speaker1: um yeah virtuality is a little bit more fun personally but i think we can't (35:42):
undefined

Speaker1: escape that mechanism of life and interactions with other people (35:48):
undefined

Speaker1: and it occurred to me as you were saying and and (35:53):
undefined

Speaker1: also because you mentioned politics you know a lot (35:56):
undefined

Speaker1: of people have said that humanity wasn't (35:58):
undefined

Speaker1: ready for social media that it's just (36:02):
undefined

Speaker1: it's caused all this chaos but you know it's like as you (36:05):
undefined

Speaker1: were saying that it's so hard (36:09):
undefined

Speaker1: to stay positive on social media rather than getting sucked (36:12):
undefined

Speaker1: in for me at least and it i like jumping into the mosh pit but i think that (36:15):
undefined

Speaker1: that skill that is practiced in a relation it's like i'm just thinking how hard (36:23):
undefined

Speaker1: that is to get just with one person where you're what you bring to the situation (36:28):
undefined

Speaker1: well rather that you and the other person are mirroring each other and you're (36:34):
undefined

Speaker1: in a feedback loop and it's that same skill that humanity is going to have to (36:37):
undefined

Speaker1: develop on an industrial level so that we can do that when we're connected to (36:43):
undefined

Speaker1: the entire world that's what but i don't i think that it's probably that simple well (36:46):
undefined

Speaker0: I think that's absolutely right but if we can't make peace with our the person (36:54):
undefined

Speaker0: we love most you know how can we not keep going to war as nations. (36:58):
undefined

Speaker1: I mean (37:04):
undefined

Speaker0: The first place to make peace is in here sure i mean it's difficult it's a long path, (37:06):
undefined

Speaker0: probably my wife's been my biggest life teacher i've probably learned more from (37:12):
undefined

Speaker0: that than from all the courses and trainings and ceremonies and retreats you know. (37:17):
undefined

Speaker1: That's great yeah but (37:23):
undefined

Speaker0: Uh it does i mean it does take i think an intimate relationship you need to (37:26):
undefined

Speaker0: give time to dropping into you, (37:32):
undefined

Speaker0: real communication i mean communication what's (37:37):
undefined

Speaker0: really happening deep down because it's so easy (37:40):
undefined

Speaker0: to get caught if we're just living together or doing something together without (37:43):
undefined

Speaker0: giving ourselves spaces to really hear each other oh that's what triggered you (37:49):
undefined

Speaker0: now i understand thank you for explaining that and thank you for giving me the (37:54):
undefined

Speaker0: feedback i will really look into that thank you You know, (38:00):
undefined

Speaker0: rather than in the spur of the moment when we're hurrying to get stuff done (38:03):
undefined

Speaker0: or we're, as you say, a bit stressed about something, (38:07):
undefined

Speaker0: then it's easy to spark each other off and without time to really go into a deeper understanding, (38:10):
undefined

Speaker0: you know, it can just escalate and gather. (38:17):
undefined

Speaker1: What what would you say your best techniques whether they're from the medicine (38:21):
undefined

Speaker1: wheel or not for doing that have been kind of not just dropping in like that (38:25):
undefined

Speaker1: but making sure checking in in your own not necessarily with the other person (38:32):
undefined

Speaker1: but in your own process of checking in with yourself (38:37):
undefined

Speaker1: making sure that you are actually touching authenticity instead of just reacting (38:40):
undefined

Speaker1: because Sometimes that can be tricky to tell, particularly if there's unconscious (38:47):
undefined

Speaker1: things going on, you know? (38:50):
undefined

Speaker0: Well, I think I'll try answering your question in terms of relationship conflict. (38:54):
undefined

Speaker1: Yeah. Yeah. (39:01):
undefined

Speaker0: You know, I guess one way, one way would be to, you know, rather than continue (39:02):
undefined

Speaker0: arguing, I might go outside and really take time, (39:08):
undefined

Speaker0: maybe go out into nature and take time (39:14):
undefined

Speaker0: in that now if i've got an emotional charge i might (39:17):
undefined

Speaker0: need to discharge that so you know (39:20):
undefined

Speaker0: maybe i'll go in the woods and shout or you (39:23):
undefined

Speaker0: know ask the earth to hold some of (39:27):
undefined

Speaker0: that emotion and it's not damaging to the (39:30):
undefined

Speaker0: earth or to the trees but just (39:32):
undefined

Speaker0: to clear that and then coming into this sense (39:36):
undefined

Speaker0: of present moment awareness so if that can create a little you know i'm sure (39:39):
undefined

Speaker0: you you've experienced this with meditation that as you come into presence it (39:45):
undefined

Speaker0: brings you more space inner spaciousness and with that spaciousness that leads to a higher awareness, (39:51):
undefined

Speaker0: and you can see oh well that's what it was when (39:59):
undefined

Speaker0: she said that that's how i felt really triggered yeah (40:02):
undefined

Speaker0: and i got triggered because it reminds me (40:06):
undefined

Speaker0: of blah blah blah all that yeah then (40:09):
undefined

Speaker0: i can understand it so then i can go back in and we can talk about it but often (40:11):
undefined

Speaker0: creating a space to just talk about it to sit down maybe we'll light a candle (40:17):
undefined

Speaker0: phone off the hook no distractions but really sit there and listen and actually (40:23):
undefined

Speaker0: really listen rather than. (40:29):
undefined

Speaker0: Face. Have I really heard your side of it? This is what I heard. Is that correct? (40:31):
undefined

Speaker0: And then the other person say, yeah, that's correct, but you missed this bit. I mentioned this. (40:39):
undefined

Speaker0: Then I think when a person feels heard emotionally, that can go a long way to (40:44):
undefined

Speaker0: diffusing it. It's not that you're saying they're right. (40:52):
undefined

Speaker0: It's not that you're saying, you know, I agree. (40:55):
undefined

Speaker0: I'm going to do exactly what you say it's saying i really understand how you felt. (40:58):
undefined

Speaker1: I find that that's key (41:03):
undefined

Speaker1: particularly in communicating with women i think and i'd (41:06):
undefined

Speaker1: have to do a little bit of extra work to do that i think yeah but (41:11):
undefined

Speaker1: yeah that's you mentioned spaciousness i (41:15):
undefined

Speaker1: i find that getting into that i have a couple thoughts (41:18):
undefined

Speaker1: about that if you're able to get into spaciousness i think there's (41:21):
undefined

Speaker1: a physiological component of that where you're you're getting (41:24):
undefined

Speaker1: out of sympathetic into parasympathetic awareness (41:27):
undefined

Speaker1: getting out of fight or flight and (41:31):
undefined

Speaker1: when you have spaciousness if the spaciousness is not even (41:35):
undefined

Speaker1: necessarily to suddenly realize you're wrong because i (41:38):
undefined

Speaker1: think in for me like if i get into fights there's (41:40):
undefined

Speaker1: always a temptation to say you know (41:44):
undefined

Speaker1: part of me just wants to win but there's also a part of me that says you know (41:47):
undefined

Speaker1: hey you know if i just completely flip my view maybe (41:50):
undefined

Speaker1: the conflict will go away maybe i was wrong and that's not (41:53):
undefined

Speaker1: necessarily always the right approach either but i (41:55):
undefined

Speaker1: think that in holding spaciousness it's not (41:58):
undefined

Speaker1: necessarily to say oh i was wrong all along it's more (42:01):
undefined

Speaker1: like just being able to hold more than just (42:04):
undefined

Speaker1: your view being able to hold more viewpoints and allow (42:07):
undefined

Speaker1: and i think that's important you mentioned some things about repeating the stuff (42:10):
undefined

Speaker1: back to the other person and patterns are you aware of imago therapy no i'm (42:17):
undefined

Speaker1: not it's another relationship it's basically the same thing i mean i'm sure (42:23):
undefined

Speaker1: this stuff is in a lot of different methods yeah (42:27):
undefined

Speaker1: That's neither here nor there. But I think that you mentioned when you realize (42:30):
undefined

Speaker1: you're triggered, thinking back, oh, this reminds me of XYZ. (42:35):
undefined

Speaker1: The reason I bring up that therapy is I think a lot of particularly psychotherapeutic (42:38):
undefined

Speaker1: methods come at that with the assumption that whatever it is that the trigger (42:43):
undefined

Speaker1: reminds you of has to be something from your childhood or your family environment as a child. (42:49):
undefined

Speaker1: And i don't necessarily think that's always true i think a lot more immediate (42:54):
undefined

Speaker1: than that and i think that constantly looking for triggers in your childhood (42:59):
undefined

Speaker1: can tend to re-infantilize somebody maybe that's just an aside but (43:02):
undefined

Speaker0: That's kind of it i agree just. (43:07):
undefined

Speaker1: Kind of speaking out loud some of my passage through similar territory here (43:10):
undefined

Speaker0: I agree i think (43:14):
undefined

Speaker0: going back to what we were talking about this be (43:17):
undefined

Speaker0: it coming into presence and you know that is a (43:21):
undefined

Speaker0: key thing because it's also like (43:24):
undefined

Speaker0: when you're listening to somebody you know especially if (43:27):
undefined

Speaker0: there if there's an emotional charge to what they're saying if you can really (43:30):
undefined

Speaker0: listen without thinking about what you're going to say back it it really goes (43:33):
undefined

Speaker0: a long way to heal them if you're kind of listening but you're looking at your (43:38):
undefined

Speaker0: phone and you know doing other stuff it's not really going to bring that kind of healing right. (43:42):
undefined

Speaker1: So you think that just holding space and listening is is kind of this (43:49):
undefined

Speaker0: I'm not just i'm not really just i'm not (43:55):
undefined

Speaker0: saying that's the only thing we do need to represent ourselves as (43:58):
undefined

Speaker0: well and speak up and you know bring (44:01):
undefined

Speaker0: our side in i think what you were saying about somehow going beyond this sense (44:04):
undefined

Speaker0: in us that says one of us is right i'm either right or wrong now to part of (44:09):
undefined

Speaker0: me it's very important that I am right and of course I am right but no that (44:15):
undefined

Speaker0: that's a that's a joke but. (44:21):
undefined

Speaker0: You know, part of us really wants to be right. And, you know, (44:23):
undefined

Speaker0: in arguments, we can feel like the other person is wanting to make us wrong. (44:26):
undefined

Speaker0: Now, if we can somehow go beyond this idea that one person is right and the other is wrong, (44:30):
undefined

Speaker0: I think that is what I was talking about with the higher consciousness or the (44:36):
undefined

Speaker0: resolution consciousness that's holding both sides. (44:42):
undefined

Speaker0: If we can get that big, and I think we all can, (44:46):
undefined

Speaker0: we all have that potential to do that, then that's (44:50):
undefined

Speaker0: going to go a long way but i come back to the (44:54):
undefined

Speaker0: sense that you know the consciousness is (44:57):
undefined

Speaker0: what all this in the world comes from the invisible (45:00):
undefined

Speaker0: world the unseen world is primary in creating what goes on in our world so the (45:03):
undefined

Speaker0: world that we're experiencing in the news at the moment is the result of how (45:10):
undefined

Speaker0: our consciousness has been and is at the moment and i'm holding the idea that we can, (45:14):
undefined

Speaker0: we have the potential to evolve to a new level of consciousness. (45:21):
undefined

Speaker0: So that's why I'm really bringing this book out and, you know, (45:26):
undefined

Speaker0: hoping that it will touch many hearts and minds and help us along in this evolutionary process. (45:30):
undefined

Speaker1: I hope so. And I think that, you know, in general, (45:36):
undefined

Speaker1: this is something that you know (45:42):
undefined

Speaker1: i i do think that the how do you put it the more imminent and nature-based traditions (45:45):
undefined

Speaker1: need to be more need to speak up for themselves more i think because you know (45:52):
undefined

Speaker1: we're we're back in the middle ages again it seems and yeah there's been so much (45:57):
undefined

Speaker1: explosion of consciousness and access to techniques and traditions since the (46:04):
undefined

Speaker1: 19 1950s really but 1960s they could go away that suddenly we have access to (46:08):
undefined

Speaker1: and could go away so easily and you (46:14):
undefined

Speaker1: That's one of the reasons why I do this podcast, is I think that these ways (46:20):
undefined

Speaker1: of seeing the world and these techniques need to be more widely available. (46:26):
undefined

Speaker1: And what you believe in, your belief system really does change everything. (46:30):
undefined

Speaker1: And you talked about how your thoughts change reality around you. (46:35):
undefined

Speaker1: Well, what religion you follow, definitely religions have massive effects on the world. (46:39):
undefined

Speaker1: And I think one of the biggest flaws in a lot of modern political thinking is (46:46):
undefined

Speaker1: to completely discount religion, (46:51):
undefined

Speaker1: not necessarily discounting it as a life option, but simply ignoring the fact (46:52):
undefined

Speaker1: that people behave and make decisions based on their beliefs and not necessarily (46:57):
undefined

Speaker1: just economic factors or material factors. (47:02):
undefined

Speaker1: And we do live in a world particularly and i think the internet is making this more and more clear (47:07):
undefined

Speaker1: we do live in a world that's a endless psychic field that is in that is being (47:12):
undefined

Speaker1: contested you know that there are fact there is factionality within so (47:17):
undefined

Speaker0: And that that. (47:22):
undefined

Speaker1: Filters down all the way to the real world (47:24):
undefined

Speaker0: Yeah yeah well that's (47:25):
undefined

Speaker0: that's absolutely right i think what you've (47:28):
undefined

Speaker0: said is very interesting there because if we (47:31):
undefined

Speaker0: i think that what we (47:35):
undefined

Speaker0: need to do as adults is to (47:38):
undefined

Speaker0: actually look again at our beliefs that we've (47:42):
undefined

Speaker0: taken in as children and choose well do we really want to believe that now because (47:45):
undefined

Speaker0: we're all in self-authority we're authors of our lives and we don't have to (47:51):
undefined

Speaker0: just believe what we're told when we were children yes we took it in we didn't (47:56):
undefined

Speaker0: have any choice really we just, (48:02):
undefined

Speaker0: unconsciously you know took in from our parents from our school from religion from our peer group, (48:04):
undefined

Speaker0: these different structures of consciousness but i (48:10):
undefined

Speaker0: think as adults we do need to take time to review those structures and decide (48:13):
undefined

Speaker0: well what is it that we really want to hold now about these different things (48:21):
undefined

Speaker0: and that will enable us to continue to learn and grow what. (48:25):
undefined

Speaker1: Has that process been like for you through your life of unlearning and choosing new things to adopt (48:30):
undefined

Speaker0: Right it's. (48:36):
undefined

Speaker1: A big question but (48:38):
undefined

Speaker0: Yeah i don't know how long have you got i guess okay well yeah i mean i was (48:39):
undefined

Speaker0: brought up been a regular family in England. (48:47):
undefined

Speaker0: I mean, my education was just an ordinary middle-class education. I've been quite, (48:50):
undefined

Speaker0: When I was a kid, we weren't that well off, but my father got better paid as (48:57):
undefined

Speaker0: I grew up. And, you know, we seemed to be okay with that. (49:01):
undefined

Speaker0: I was given an education, but something was missing. (49:05):
undefined

Speaker0: So I felt, actually, on some level, I felt a bit alienated by the system of, (49:09):
undefined

Speaker0: you know, just getting a job. (49:16):
undefined

Speaker0: Industrial consumerism just wasn't enough for me. I needed more meaning. (49:18):
undefined

Speaker0: And so i think over time those structures (49:24):
undefined

Speaker0: those beliefs like when i (49:29):
undefined

Speaker0: was about 16 i i thought okay i'm i'm going (49:31):
undefined

Speaker0: to be an atheist i'm going to be a hedonist i'm (49:35):
undefined

Speaker0: just going to go for pleasure and it's very sort of teenage (49:38):
undefined

Speaker0: sort of idea isn't it the only thing that (49:41):
undefined

Speaker0: matters in life is my pleasure and then (49:44):
undefined

Speaker0: i um i went hitchhiking ended up in egypt visiting the temples there okay and (49:47):
undefined

Speaker0: you know i was so impressed i mean why would people take so much trouble over (49:54):
undefined

Speaker0: all this for a religion so gradually you know i began to open my mind and the (50:00):
undefined

Speaker0: things that i was exposed to, (50:06):
undefined

Speaker0: started opening my mind and then i then i had some you know really big opening (50:08):
undefined

Speaker0: experiences that showed me that there was more to life than we thought. (50:14):
undefined

Speaker1: Those that you're comfortable talking about. That sounds like a good one. (50:20):
undefined

Speaker0: Yeah. I mean, basically, I had an experience of oneness. (50:24):
undefined

Speaker0: Years later, listening to Buddhist Dharma, I thought, oh, that was nirvana. (50:30):
undefined

Speaker0: That was a nirvanic experience, just touching into that, (50:36):
undefined

Speaker0: where i felt that there was a certain sameness about (50:40):
undefined

Speaker0: me connected with other people and there (50:44):
undefined

Speaker0: was something much bigger behind everything that (50:47):
undefined

Speaker0: was a there was a sense of oneness and that i (50:50):
undefined

Speaker0: didn't really need to pursue anything to (50:53):
undefined

Speaker0: become in to come into my wholeness maybe i just (50:56):
undefined

Speaker0: needed to relax a bit more and allow it to be there (50:59):
undefined

Speaker0: i i quickly went back into a (51:02):
undefined

Speaker0: more ego-based consciousness but i (51:05):
undefined

Speaker0: knew that that was that was true what i'd (51:08):
undefined

Speaker0: experienced there so that kind of got me (51:11):
undefined

Speaker0: onto this path of questing into different (51:13):
undefined

Speaker0: traditions and at one point somebody said well look you you'd love this you'd (51:17):
undefined

Speaker0: love nature why don't you come to this so that's when i first touched into the (51:23):
undefined

Speaker0: medicine wheels and those teachings and that was about getting on for nearly 40 years ago. (51:29):
undefined

Speaker0: So I'm still learning. There's still more to learn. Yeah, I love it. (51:36):
undefined

Speaker1: You've been consistent with Medicine Wheel stuff for 40 years. (51:42):
undefined

Speaker0: Yeah, nearly that, yeah. (51:45):
undefined

Speaker1: Did you come drop in and out of it at times? Like, was your faith tested, (51:47):
undefined

Speaker1: or have you been pretty much straight shot? (51:53):
undefined

Speaker0: Not really. (51:55):
undefined

Speaker0: I went through a training of process-oriented psychology, which I think is really, really good. (51:58):
undefined

Speaker0: And I joined a training for that. And then some people came along with some more medicine wheels. (52:05):
undefined

Speaker0: I thought, well, I can't do that. I'm doing the process work training. (52:12):
undefined

Speaker0: And then they said well we're going to do we're going (52:16):
undefined

Speaker0: to do a training journey so i gradually thought oh maybe (52:18):
undefined

Speaker0: i can do both so halfway along this (52:21):
undefined

Speaker0: training journey in going deeper into (52:25):
undefined

Speaker0: medicine of medicine i thought well (52:27):
undefined

Speaker0: actually i don't need the process work so i dropped that and i continued with (52:30):
undefined

Speaker0: that path so i have been pretty dedicated to it and part of that dedication (52:35):
undefined

Speaker0: is the feeling that that it's helping me but that it all this time obviously (52:40):
undefined

Speaker0: as you said we're in a very, (52:47):
undefined

Speaker0: challenging time we've brought these huge challenges to (52:49):
undefined

Speaker0: ourselves and i'm i'm still holding that (52:53):
undefined

Speaker0: the medicine wheel has the power to benefit our (52:55):
undefined

Speaker0: destiny not in a way of trying to convert anybody but just offering it really (52:59):
undefined

Speaker0: and you actually don't really need to have it as a faith you can be you can (53:06):
undefined

Speaker0: be christian buddhist muslim and still learn something from it it's not an exclusive thing. (53:10):
undefined

Speaker1: Talk about in leading these sessions of leading people now, you know, (53:18):
undefined

Speaker1: having so much experience, but then leading people through these medicine real sessions. (53:22):
undefined

Speaker1: I'm curious, you know, without naming names or identifying information, (53:26):
undefined

Speaker1: of course, some of the breakthroughs you've seen people have and maybe some (53:30):
undefined

Speaker1: of the biggest challenges you've faced in facilitating those. (53:35):
undefined

Speaker1: Because sometimes people can really grind on things. They can have a challenging time. (53:39):
undefined

Speaker0: Yeah. Well, yes. I mean, there are some teachings that people can get a bit (53:44):
undefined

Speaker0: caught up in, and it's really looking at their shadow side. (53:51):
undefined

Speaker0: We tend to put the emphasis on the bright side, not ignoring the parts of us (53:55):
undefined

Speaker0: that are a bit distorted in different ways when we get into judgment, (54:02):
undefined

Speaker0: mind, or feeling separate from others, or putting other people down. (54:06):
undefined

Speaker0: It's easy for us to go there. We're kind of trained into that. (54:12):
undefined

Speaker0: And it can be that people get a bit stuck (54:15):
undefined

Speaker0: in that so when i'm teaching people i (54:18):
undefined

Speaker0: say don't get obsessed with that but more (54:21):
undefined

Speaker0: energy into seeing your your infinite nature that you're an expression of the (54:24):
undefined

Speaker0: universe you're an expression of consciousness and that that's kind of a fundamental (54:30):
undefined

Speaker0: reshaping of who we think we are we're told you know we're told here's your (54:36):
undefined

Speaker0: passport brought your name, (54:42):
undefined

Speaker0: date of birth, country of origin. (54:44):
undefined

Speaker0: That's a surface level of identity, but at a deeper level, who are we really? (54:47):
undefined

Speaker0: So I think that's, (54:54):
undefined

Speaker0: I mean, for my own breakthroughs, I think realizing that it's okay to like yourself (54:56):
undefined

Speaker0: or love yourself, even just saying that, you know, from my conditioning, (55:03):
undefined

Speaker0: I can hear inside myself, even as I say that on air, (55:07):
undefined

Speaker0: you know, when I say it's okay to love yourself, it sounds, part of it's going, hmm, (55:12):
undefined

Speaker0: that's an upbringing. (55:17):
undefined

Speaker1: That's really hard right that can be really hard for (55:20):
undefined

Speaker1: people i don't know if that you know i'm sure it would be (55:22):
undefined

Speaker1: fascinating to look at that cross-culturally you know different cultures (55:25):
undefined

Speaker1: may feel differently about that but yeah i was just you know i was just thinking (55:28):
undefined

Speaker1: about that's such a simple thing yet it's so hard to do and i was just i was (55:31):
undefined

Speaker1: just in new orleans and i was kind of having that experience and thinking about (55:35):
undefined

Speaker1: it and sometimes it really is that simple if people can just at least have positive self-regard (55:38):
undefined

Speaker1: and be compassionate to themselves because you always see also with spirituality, (55:47):
undefined

Speaker1: people will be compassionate to everyone except themselves. (55:53):
undefined

Speaker1: This is quite common I find. (55:56):
undefined

Speaker1: Why do you think that that's so hard for people? I'm not saying somebody who's cracked that. (56:01):
undefined

Speaker1: I think I've had, I'm feeling as I'm you know getting older or something luckily (56:07):
undefined

Speaker1: i feel that i this this comes to me more frequently but yeah why do you think (56:13):
undefined

Speaker1: that that's so hard for people yeah (56:18):
undefined

Speaker0: It's a really good question i think from my own experience i mean i have been (56:20):
undefined

Speaker0: with you know being quite down on myself most of my life probably. (56:24):
undefined

Speaker0: And, you know, realizing actually it's okay. I am enough. (56:29):
undefined

Speaker0: You know, we have this deep belief that we're not enough. (56:34):
undefined

Speaker0: And I was talking to somebody about it the other day, and what came to me was (56:38):
undefined

Speaker0: the sense that actually when we're down on ourselves, we're actually reinforcing (56:43):
undefined

Speaker0: our sense of separateness. (56:47):
undefined

Speaker0: Or if you like, we're actually reinforcing our ego. We are getting something (56:50):
undefined

Speaker0: out of that, or part of us is. (56:56):
undefined

Speaker0: And I think it's the ego part and I don't want to get down on the ego but we (56:59):
undefined

Speaker0: need to understand that we're also there are other parts of us we're much more (57:04):
undefined

Speaker0: than that we are a much bigger, (57:09):
undefined

Speaker0: being than we than we think we are so I (57:12):
undefined

Speaker0: think there's a there is a payoff for being hard (57:15):
undefined

Speaker0: on ourselves it's not just that we think (57:18):
undefined

Speaker0: by being hard on ourselves we'll get the (57:21):
undefined

Speaker0: result we want or that we learned it from our parents i (57:24):
undefined

Speaker0: mean i know as a parent you know you think (57:27):
undefined

Speaker0: oh i can i can give them a reward if (57:30):
undefined

Speaker0: they do the right thing or i can you know punish them to get them to do the (57:33):
undefined

Speaker0: right thing so there is this you know partly from our parenting techniques but (57:37):
undefined

Speaker0: also the way we're parenting ourselves that sometimes we think if we're harsh to ourselves we'll get, (57:44):
undefined

Speaker0: ourselves to do the right thing. (57:51):
undefined

Speaker0: But I think there might be more to it than that. (57:53):
undefined

Speaker1: Well, yeah. I was going to say, you know, I'm always, I feel like when I really (57:56):
undefined

Speaker1: get down on myself, I'm trying to force myself to work harder usually. (58:00):
undefined

Speaker1: But what do you think the more, like, what do you think the deeper level is (58:04):
undefined

Speaker1: there? You said you think there might be more to it than that. (58:08):
undefined

Speaker0: Yeah, well, I think there is this sense of somehow feeding our ego. (58:10):
undefined

Speaker0: Somehow we're special because we're the worst person. (58:16):
undefined

Speaker1: I know the feeling yeah (58:21):
undefined

Speaker0: I'm worse than everybody else (58:23):
undefined

Speaker0: i'm really the most unlovable person in the world (58:26):
undefined

Speaker0: right the negative you know so (58:29):
undefined

Speaker0: how come you know you love lakes you love the (58:32):
undefined

Speaker0: seaside you love mountains you love flowers how (58:35):
undefined

Speaker0: come you're not lovable if you're (58:38):
undefined

Speaker0: part of all this so yeah i (58:41):
undefined

Speaker0: think it's important to love ourselves even if we make mistakes even (58:45):
undefined

Speaker0: if we lack awareness at times you know we all we (58:49):
undefined

Speaker0: all lack awareness at times and it's just a (58:52):
undefined

Speaker0: growth if we're able to open and if (58:55):
undefined

Speaker0: somebody challenges us i mean i've not always been open to challenge i don't (58:58):
undefined

Speaker0: sometimes don't like it yeah i mean okay the other day i sort of resisted my (59:03):
undefined

Speaker0: wife's challenge it was just a silly thing we were walking down the road it (59:09):
undefined

Speaker0: was a little village and uh i was walking with the dog. (59:14):
undefined

Speaker0: And uh she said you better you know there's a car coming get out the road i'm (59:18):
undefined

Speaker0: like i did and it pulled in in front of us and it was a taxi and i said i knew it was there, (59:22):
undefined

Speaker0: i knew it was a taxi and that it was going to stop here you (59:28):
undefined

Speaker0: know and we both laughed because we knew i was (59:31):
undefined

Speaker0: lying but you know in some way (59:34):
undefined

Speaker0: i was being defensive about that because i didn't (59:37):
undefined

Speaker0: want to be told what to do anyway i'm digressing a bit but i think i think the (59:40):
undefined

Speaker0: more we believe in ourselves and the more we love ourselves the more we can (59:46):
undefined

Speaker0: then open to being challenged and then if we can open to being challenged then (59:50):
undefined

Speaker0: we can learn something we. (59:55):
undefined

Speaker1: Can also stick up for ourselves when it's called for when we love ourselves (59:57):
undefined

Speaker0: Sure sure yeah yeah i think not talking about just being walked over yeah yeah. (01:00:02):
undefined

Speaker1: It's tricky to find that line but (01:00:11):
undefined

Speaker1: this is great i i think my perception is (01:00:15):
undefined

Speaker1: i think that the global spiritual culture and i do think (01:00:18):
undefined

Speaker1: we should start referring to the global spiritual culture as a as a culture (01:00:21):
undefined

Speaker1: regardless of tradition i i think that because we're all fellow travelers in (01:00:25):
undefined

Speaker1: one way or the other I think that the global spiritual culture has matured a (01:00:30):
undefined

Speaker1: lot on the question of the ego over the last several decades. (01:00:36):
undefined

Speaker1: I think, you know, in the, you know, particularly you hear stories about the (01:00:39):
undefined

Speaker1: 60s where the attitude towards the ego is that it has to be annihilated. (01:00:43):
undefined

Speaker1: You get this from someone. (01:00:47):
undefined

Speaker1: You get this from the early psychedelic days. And I think that people who are lifelong, (01:00:49):
undefined

Speaker1: you know, spiritual people, there's been a lot more awareness, (01:00:56):
undefined

Speaker1: even in, you know, I think in the last 20 years of observing it, (01:01:00):
undefined

Speaker1: where people have said they've come to a more less antagonistic attitude towards (01:01:05):
undefined

Speaker1: the ego and not just the ego, but all aspects of self. (01:01:11):
undefined

Speaker1: You know you get that where people talk about you know sometimes setting a boundary (01:01:14):
undefined

Speaker1: is not a bad thing sometimes you know you or certainly that you shouldn't be in an antagonistic (01:01:18):
undefined

Speaker1: adversarial relationship to yourself and it's i i think that's a healthy development (01:01:25):
undefined

Speaker0: Yeah i totally agree with that go ahead (01:01:31):
undefined

Speaker0: i was going to say i think i like (01:01:35):
undefined

Speaker0: to this is obviously just a concept but i (01:01:39):
undefined

Speaker0: like to think that there is part of us that we (01:01:42):
undefined

Speaker0: could call ego which is that part that wants (01:01:45):
undefined

Speaker0: that tends to take us into separation and then there's also the little i the (01:01:48):
undefined

Speaker0: little self and obviously all these are related but there's also the big i the (01:01:53):
undefined

Speaker0: infinite self which you know we're in a relation you could say there's a kind (01:01:58):
undefined

Speaker0: of relationship with that (01:02:04):
undefined

Speaker0: from the little I to the universal I, if you like, the deep self. (01:02:06):
undefined

Speaker0: And if we're in relationship with that, then we can open to that and see and (01:02:12):
undefined

Speaker0: actually learn something from that. (01:02:17):
undefined

Speaker0: But I think we need to, as you say, not being down on the ego or the little I. (01:02:19):
undefined

Speaker1: Yeah, I feel like it's kind of like an appendix. People used to think, (01:02:27):
undefined

Speaker1: just cut it out and get rid of (01:02:30):
undefined

Speaker1: it. It turns out that's where all these important microbiome comes from. (01:02:32):
undefined

Speaker1: It's actually essential for your overall mental health, even. (01:02:38):
undefined

Speaker1: So, yeah, I would like to think that people are kind of, and the current moment, (01:02:43):
undefined

Speaker1: of course, is a big challenge because it's, you know, without getting too deep (01:02:48):
undefined

Speaker1: into it, because I'm sure people are sick of hearing me talk about it. (01:02:53):
undefined

Speaker1: It's a moment where we really are being challenged to say, what are our values and what do we stand for? (01:02:56):
undefined

Speaker0: Yeah. (01:03:03):
undefined

Speaker1: And that's, you know, that can be stressful, but hopefully it can also encourage (01:03:04):
undefined

Speaker1: some introspection and growth. (01:03:09):
undefined

Speaker0: Yes i think that's a real edge for (01:03:11):
undefined

Speaker0: all of us is to stand for what we believe in and (01:03:14):
undefined

Speaker0: still be able to open to the other who (01:03:18):
undefined

Speaker0: doesn't agree and to try and understand (01:03:21):
undefined

Speaker0: where they're coming from and to see some kind of value in their perspective (01:03:24):
undefined

Speaker0: i think it's really difficult and yet paradox it's a paradox that we are opening (01:03:30):
undefined

Speaker0: to the other and yet also standing for what we stand for, (01:03:37):
undefined

Speaker0: we need to somehow go beyond either or in that have. (01:03:42):
undefined

Speaker1: You found any interesting ways through that for yourself (01:03:47):
undefined

Speaker0: Well that's maybe that's my growing edge or what one of the many but, (01:03:50):
undefined

Speaker0: yeah i think i think with you know what i'm just thinking about my brother-in-law (01:03:58):
undefined

Speaker0: and really trying to encourage him to because we're kind of different about (01:04:03):
undefined

Speaker0: a lot of perspectives on things you know, (01:04:08):
undefined

Speaker0: yeah i think making a space and asking question (01:04:13):
undefined

Speaker0: oh yeah so you believe you believe (01:04:17):
undefined

Speaker0: that so what about this have you thought about that and (01:04:20):
undefined

Speaker0: drawing him out and that can at least (01:04:23):
undefined

Speaker0: create some kind of dialogue and some kind of (01:04:26):
undefined

Speaker0: bridge between us and it's not that (01:04:28):
undefined

Speaker0: he's going to necessarily give up his perspective and suddenly (01:04:31):
undefined

Speaker0: oh god thank you so much i agree (01:04:35):
undefined

Speaker0: with you now you were right or which would be great of course but i don't think (01:04:38):
undefined

Speaker0: he's going to do that but at least there's a bridge there and i'm also opening (01:04:43):
undefined

Speaker0: to see the other perspective and see at some level even at a homeopathic dose (01:04:47):
undefined

Speaker0: of that could be valuable i. (01:04:53):
undefined

Speaker1: Don't know what well i mean the uk is (01:04:57):
undefined

Speaker1: pretty pretty uh hyped up at the moment but (01:05:00):
undefined

Speaker1: you know in the us we have the election and people are more polarized now than (01:05:03):
undefined

Speaker1: they probably ever have been before to the point where it feels like the civil (01:05:07):
undefined

Speaker1: war again yeah you know there's a lot of there's been a lot of violence in england (01:05:10):
undefined

Speaker1: as well on other issues so just you know maybe it's like it's just back to (01:05:15):
undefined

Speaker1: can we at least be cordial with each other if we have different opinions? And I think (01:05:21):
undefined

Speaker1: a bigger deal than it than it seems but i (01:05:27):
undefined

Speaker1: think that i would hope that people are at the level where they're starting (01:05:30):
undefined

Speaker1: to realize if we don't at least make an (01:05:33):
undefined

Speaker1: attempt to understand the other side we're gonna blow (01:05:35):
undefined

Speaker1: each other up in a nuclear war like it feels like (01:05:38):
undefined

Speaker1: it's all back on the table again yeah i think that that threat of nuclear war (01:05:41):
undefined

Speaker1: in the 50s through the 80s is really what forced out and drove so much of the (01:05:47):
undefined

Speaker1: emphasis on going back to other wisdom traditions and spirituality and things like that. (01:05:56):
undefined

Speaker1: And so I think that that's a role that people who are in the global spiritual (01:06:00):
undefined

Speaker1: culture need to actively play now, because now we seem to be back in much more (01:06:04):
undefined

Speaker1: serious circumstances. (01:06:11):
undefined

Speaker0: Yeah, well, I'd like to think that the crisis that we're in, (01:06:14):
undefined

Speaker0: the ecological crisis is something that I pay a lot of attention to as well. (01:06:18):
undefined

Speaker0: And these polarized politics seem to be all over the place. (01:06:24):
undefined

Speaker0: A lot of politics of Europe is going like that. (01:06:29):
undefined

Speaker0: As you mentioned earlier, there's a social media influence on that, (01:06:34):
undefined

Speaker0: that we're getting a lot of information from social media, we're getting echo (01:06:38):
undefined

Speaker0: chambers agreeing with us rather than stepping across and listening to the other. (01:06:43):
undefined

Speaker0: So i i really do agree but i'd (01:06:47):
undefined

Speaker0: like to i'd like to believe that the crisis is also forcing us towards more (01:06:50):
undefined

Speaker0: of a spiritual awakening so i think certainly there are a lot more people who (01:06:56):
undefined

Speaker0: are involved in the spiritual the global spiritual culture now than in the 1950s yeah, (01:07:01):
undefined

Speaker0: But you reminded me of a story I heard of. I do quite a lot of work in Denmark. (01:07:10):
undefined

Speaker1: Okay. (01:07:17):
undefined

Speaker0: There's a story of the first Danish Muslim MP. (01:07:18):
undefined

Speaker0: And what she did, I mean, she got a lot of hate mail from people in Denmark. (01:07:23):
undefined

Speaker0: We don't want Muslims MPs. (01:07:28):
undefined

Speaker0: I mean, it was probably a lot worse than that, let's face it. (01:07:31):
undefined

Speaker0: But I don't know what the messages were exactly. (01:07:33):
undefined

Speaker0: But what she decided to do was she (01:07:36):
undefined

Speaker0: thought i will contact these people and she (01:07:38):
undefined

Speaker0: would contact them bring them up say look i got (01:07:42):
undefined

Speaker0: this message from you can i come around and discuss it and she would go around (01:07:45):
undefined

Speaker0: sit with these people i mean it wasn't obviously it was really challenging to (01:07:51):
undefined

Speaker0: do that she would go and sit there have drink tea with them and really listen (01:07:56):
undefined

Speaker0: to their fears that you You know, (01:08:01):
undefined

Speaker0: Denmark was being taken over or swamped with immigrants. (01:08:04):
undefined

Speaker0: And, you know, so she could really, really understand. And I can't help but (01:08:09):
undefined

Speaker0: admire that kind of courage to actually go and listen to the other. (01:08:14):
undefined

Speaker1: Yeah, that's very courageous. That's a much better response than, (01:08:19):
undefined

Speaker1: you know, some of the stuff that happened in the Netherlands with Theo van Gogh and things like that. (01:08:22):
undefined

Speaker1: Yeah. Well, the other great thing about spirituality also is it's something (01:08:29):
undefined

Speaker1: that people can agree on across transnational borders. (01:08:34):
undefined

Speaker1: And I think that my experience, particularly having run this podcast for 10, (01:08:38):
undefined

Speaker1: I think over 10 years now, is I can talk to somebody on spiritual topics from (01:08:43):
undefined

Speaker1: any tradition, from anywhere in the world. (01:08:50):
undefined

Speaker1: And we immediately have a sense of not everything, but there's a certain shared experience. (01:08:52):
undefined

Speaker1: And maybe that experience is of internal states, right, which are not political, (01:09:00):
undefined

Speaker1: you know, they're inhuman across all cultures and religions. (01:09:07):
undefined

Speaker1: And I think that that's such a beautiful thing. And it's no wonder to me that (01:09:12):
undefined

Speaker1: people need spirituality more than ever. (01:09:16):
undefined

Speaker1: People need spirituality in crisis points. That was true during the fall of (01:09:20):
undefined

Speaker1: the Soviet Union, and I'm sure it's true in Russia now. (01:09:24):
undefined

Speaker1: And that is something that, particularly with the Internet, that can continue (01:09:28):
undefined

Speaker1: to bring people together. (01:09:33):
undefined

Speaker1: And I think you mentioned something about, you know, you're talking about social media and politics. (01:09:35):
undefined

Speaker1: And one thing that occurred to me is you were mentioning earlier, (01:09:39):
undefined

Speaker1: we were talking about, you know, your thoughts affect reality and they certainly (01:09:43):
undefined

Speaker1: can affect what you say and what you do and what you put out into the world. (01:09:47):
undefined

Speaker1: And we were talking about how that's kind of on a whole new level with social media. (01:09:51):
undefined

Speaker1: But i also it also made me think (01:09:56):
undefined

Speaker1: of you know a couple years ago when the facebook (01:09:58):
undefined

Speaker1: whistleblower came out she said that (01:10:02):
undefined

Speaker1: i don't know if you remember this she said that the social media (01:10:05):
undefined

Speaker1: companies now have so much power that what's (01:10:09):
undefined

Speaker1: happening is the reason why politics are going so crazy is (01:10:13):
undefined

Speaker1: all over the world is social media is making people more and more polarized (01:10:16):
undefined

Speaker1: and then the politicians have to cater to those polarized positions to get elected (01:10:21):
undefined

Speaker1: so it's all a feedback loop from what you're thinking what you're putting out (01:10:27):
undefined

Speaker1: on social media to who gets elected (01:10:31):
undefined

Speaker1: It's all of a cybernetic feedback loop and (01:10:34):
undefined

Speaker1: you know it's something that just like (01:10:38):
undefined

Speaker1: we need to take control of in a relationship we need (01:10:41):
undefined

Speaker1: to take control of with our relationship in with the whole world and i think (01:10:45):
undefined

Speaker1: that social media in a lot of ways fulfills the long-held buddhist goal of making (01:10:49):
undefined

Speaker1: people understand that they're all interconnected but right in your face every (01:10:56):
undefined

Speaker1: day every moment of everything way (01:11:01):
undefined

Speaker0: Yeah. Yeah. Well, I think that's right. I think it's had a huge impact. (01:11:05):
undefined

Speaker0: I don't know what it would be like for politicians to really step out of line. (01:11:10):
undefined

Speaker0: Well, like in this country, I know that having immigrants to come in is in many ways helpful. (01:11:17):
undefined

Speaker0: Actually of course we're all immigrants in this country you know because it (01:11:26):
undefined

Speaker0: was covered in ice until 10 000 years ago so ultimately i mean the whole thing (01:11:30):
undefined

Speaker0: about immigration on one level is just simple some people saying look we were (01:11:36):
undefined

Speaker0: here first so you can't come in. (01:11:41):
undefined

Speaker1: Right that's (01:11:43):
undefined

Speaker0: I know it i don't mean to belittle people's feelings but (01:11:45):
undefined

Speaker0: on one level that's that's right and we're getting more and more of it because (01:11:49):
undefined

Speaker0: of climate change and you know our interconnectivity is that people all over (01:11:54):
undefined

Speaker0: the world they can see things from all over the world they can see the wealth the material wealth. (01:12:00):
undefined

Speaker1: Yeah in (01:12:07):
undefined

Speaker0: The developed very developed countries yeah why don't they have it. (01:12:08):
undefined

Speaker1: That's something i haven't thought about a whole lot that's interesting yeah (01:12:12):
undefined

Speaker1: because i was just thinking about the other day how i can't (01:12:16):
undefined

Speaker1: imagine what it's like right now growing up (01:12:20):
undefined

Speaker1: and you know you're seven eight (01:12:24):
undefined

Speaker1: years old and where you would have maybe you know (01:12:27):
undefined

Speaker1: your middle class or poor lower middle class and whereas before (01:12:30):
undefined

Speaker1: you would have had a consciousness of that but it wouldn't have (01:12:33):
undefined

Speaker1: you know you would have been in simpatico with (01:12:36):
undefined

Speaker1: the people around you now people are looking at like (01:12:40):
undefined

Speaker1: instagram influencers who are sailing around on yachts (01:12:43):
undefined

Speaker1: and thinking that's you know if i don't have that you know there's something (01:12:46):
undefined

Speaker1: wrong with me i can't look i'm not sailing around you know doing all these crazy (01:12:50):
undefined

Speaker1: things that influencers do which are mostly fabricated and i think that's really (01:12:57):
undefined

Speaker1: really bad for society but (01:13:01):
undefined

Speaker1: I hadn't thought about it in the context of people in the developing world now (01:13:04):
undefined

Speaker1: seeing how the first world lives. (01:13:10):
undefined

Speaker1: That was true with television always, but that's got to cause quite a lot of resentment. (01:13:14):
undefined

Speaker0: Well, I think one thing we haven't spoken about is community. (01:13:21):
undefined

Speaker0: The sense of community, people living in community. (01:13:26):
undefined

Speaker0: We're now a much bigger sense of the global community and we have sort of online (01:13:30):
undefined

Speaker0: communities of like-minded people, (01:13:37):
undefined

Speaker0: that we relate to actually I live in an area where there's a lot of open-minded (01:13:40):
undefined

Speaker0: people so I know a lot of people around here and there is a certain sense of (01:13:45):
undefined

Speaker0: community but you hear about people living in villages, (01:13:51):
undefined

Speaker0: as humans have done for thousands of years But how, you know, (01:13:55):
undefined

Speaker0: a sense of community celebrating together, (01:14:02):
undefined

Speaker0: celebrating the cycle of the seasons, and so on, and sharing something that (01:14:06):
undefined

Speaker0: I don't think I've ever truly experienced. (01:14:12):
undefined

Speaker0: So that is going out as people decide they want more of the material wealth. (01:14:15):
undefined

Speaker1: Let's bring it back to the medicine wheel. so is (01:14:21):
undefined

Speaker1: wants to get back in touch with something more than material wealth (01:14:24):
undefined

Speaker1: and wants to get back in touch with the deeper levels of themselves and they (01:14:28):
undefined

Speaker1: don't have any experience of this of course they should buy your book but how (01:14:32):
undefined

Speaker1: can they begin to investigate this and maybe maybe if you could share maybe (01:14:37):
undefined

Speaker1: just a teaching or two that maybe people could begin to apply yeah (01:14:41):
undefined

Speaker0: Well i think ultimately the teaching is the earth or life the teacher, (01:14:45):
undefined

Speaker0: I mean the teacher is the earth or life going out on the earth, (01:14:51):
undefined

Speaker0: I think just one way to start would be to spend time going out into nature and being with nature, (01:14:57):
undefined

Speaker0: practicing meditation or whatever it is that we can do to come into the present moment awareness. (01:15:07):
undefined

Speaker0: One thing we didn't speak about earlier is using the senses, the sense perceptions. (01:15:13):
undefined

Speaker0: So the more we can come into the visual just opening the visual. (01:15:18):
undefined

Speaker0: Space rather than thinking so much but (01:15:26):
undefined

Speaker0: actually using i've spoken about this in the book so that's another reason to (01:15:29):
undefined

Speaker0: get it but you know using our sense perceptions that helps to bring the consciousness (01:15:33):
undefined

Speaker0: more fully present or to awaken us to get that attention into the present moment (01:15:38):
undefined

Speaker0: So if we go out into nature and do that, (01:15:44):
undefined

Speaker0: or just go and obviously can't look at the sun, but go and be with the sun and (01:15:47):
undefined

Speaker0: just appreciating all these different aspects of life. (01:15:52):
undefined

Speaker0: I guess that's one way of starting. (01:15:56):
undefined

Speaker0: It's helpful to have a teacher, to have contact with somebody like that. (01:15:59):
undefined

Speaker0: And I mean, there are people out there who are trained and able to hold retreats (01:16:04):
undefined

Speaker0: and ceremonies for people. (01:16:11):
undefined

Speaker0: I am involved in a journey called Evocative Leadership Mastery, (01:16:14):
undefined

Speaker0: which is a very transformative program. (01:16:20):
undefined

Speaker0: People come in person. They come about four times, well, five times, (01:16:23):
undefined

Speaker0: and we have a retreat for six days. (01:16:29):
undefined

Speaker0: And we open each of these intelligences, each of these directions around the wheel. (01:16:33):
undefined

Speaker0: We open each one of those through experience, but also through practical tools (01:16:39):
undefined

Speaker0: that people can actually practice in their lives. (01:16:45):
undefined

Speaker0: And the idea is that they go away and they start practicing over the next two (01:16:48):
undefined

Speaker0: or three months to open that direction. (01:16:52):
undefined

Speaker0: So creation intelligence, perceptual intelligence, emotional intelligence, (01:16:56):
undefined

Speaker0: pathfinding intelligence, sustaining intelligence, (01:17:04):
undefined

Speaker0: addictive intelligence, decisive intelligence and what (01:17:09):
undefined

Speaker0: we call energia intelligence that's the (01:17:13):
undefined

Speaker0: eight intelligences around the wheel so (01:17:16):
undefined

Speaker0: i speak about these in the book but of course (01:17:19):
undefined

Speaker0: without practice we don't actually get the experience so the practices are there (01:17:22):
undefined

Speaker0: in the book of course having somebody guide you or being accountable to other (01:17:29):
undefined

Speaker0: people and saying yeah i did the practice this is what i learned this is what (01:17:34):
undefined

Speaker0: works for me that can be very helpful yeah. (01:17:38):
undefined

Speaker1: That's pretty intensive so it's kind of that you go through the whole wheel (01:17:41):
undefined

Speaker1: of the year is what it sounds like that's pretty and that's a that's pretty intensive (01:17:46):
undefined

Speaker0: Yeah well i mean people still go to work and they do their job but the idea (01:17:49):
undefined

Speaker0: is they have six days for four times six days over a year in training and then (01:17:53):
undefined

Speaker0: they go away and they practice so they're going out to work they're doing stuff (01:18:00):
undefined

Speaker0: at home they're doing their regular life, but they're actually, (01:18:04):
undefined

Speaker0: Doing all those things and looking at all those things through that lens and (01:18:09):
undefined

Speaker0: just noticing what they're learning from that. (01:18:14):
undefined

Speaker0: It's not like we're doing it all the time. (01:18:16):
undefined

Speaker1: What kind of transformations do you see people making over the course of that year? (01:18:20):
undefined

Speaker0: Yeah, well, I think it kind of comes back to that question you asked earlier (01:18:24):
undefined

Speaker0: about the biggest breakthroughs. (01:18:29):
undefined

Speaker0: And i think people are realizing as (01:18:31):
undefined

Speaker0: they learn how to activate these intelligence (01:18:35):
undefined

Speaker0: system in them deliberately i mean (01:18:39):
undefined

Speaker0: those things are in us already in potential they're (01:18:42):
undefined

Speaker0: in everybody in potential but the more consciously (01:18:45):
undefined

Speaker0: we're able to actually activate them then that (01:18:49):
undefined

Speaker0: can make a big difference to how we are (01:18:52):
undefined

Speaker0: influencing what happens in life (01:18:55):
undefined

Speaker0: which is kind of what we were talking about earlier but actually (01:18:58):
undefined

Speaker0: doing that deliberately and consciously so (01:19:02):
undefined

Speaker0: consciously choosing the effect that we want to have or (01:19:06):
undefined

Speaker0: at least choosing the state of consciousness that (01:19:09):
undefined

Speaker0: we want to be operating from so it (01:19:13):
undefined

Speaker0: can be a big yeah very transformative people (01:19:16):
undefined

Speaker0: really bring themselves to that and bring themselves to (01:19:19):
undefined

Speaker0: the practice it's very transformative i mean (01:19:22):
undefined

Speaker0: i hope that just reading the book will inspire people but at the end of the (01:19:26):
undefined

Speaker0: day reading a book is one thing and practicing it you know really living it (01:19:32):
undefined

Speaker0: it's what's what the transformation is not not just reading about it i'm. (01:19:37):
undefined

Speaker1: Curious do you do you see are there real patterns in what people bring to this (01:19:43):
undefined

Speaker1: wanting to change what areas of life they're wanting to work on is it all over (01:19:49):
undefined

Speaker1: the map or are there pretty consistent themes (01:19:54):
undefined

Speaker0: I think people probably come to that training journey from having already done (01:19:58):
undefined

Speaker0: quite a lot of personal work and they want to grow bigger. (01:20:03):
undefined

Speaker0: So they may even be working in personal development work. (01:20:07):
undefined

Speaker0: They may be coaches, life coaches, and they want to go deeper into it. (01:20:12):
undefined

Speaker0: So they may already have done some work on themselves. (01:20:16):
undefined

Speaker0: Typically, it might be that they want to transform some kind of self-belief (01:20:19):
undefined

Speaker0: that is holding them back, that feels they're not enough in some way. (01:20:25):
undefined

Speaker0: Typically, that might be deep down. (01:20:30):
undefined

Speaker0: So we do some practices to shift that, at least to bring those beliefs up to consciousness. (01:20:32):
undefined

Speaker0: So the more we're aware of these things that are operating in us, (01:20:40):
undefined

Speaker0: if we're not really aware that they're operating, they'll just carry on. (01:20:44):
undefined

Speaker0: But surfacing them, then we can actually, the sort of ritual breaking of that (01:20:48):
undefined

Speaker0: old pattern and taking in a new structure, really. (01:20:54):
undefined

Speaker0: So that's one thing that we do. And I would say that's more in the realm of (01:20:59):
undefined

Speaker0: emotional intelligence, which is all about responding to life rather than reacting, (01:21:04):
undefined

Speaker0: having that space to respond for. (01:21:11):
undefined

Speaker0: And then each of these intelligences supports all the others. (01:21:13):
undefined

Speaker0: So they're not separate, but we can separate them out to look at them more closely (01:21:18):
undefined

Speaker0: or look through that lens. Thank you. (01:21:23):
undefined

Speaker1: Do you just do these in the UK, or are they all over the world? (01:21:26):
undefined

Speaker0: Well, no. We're working in Spain, and there'll be another one in Turkey. (01:21:29):
undefined

Speaker0: I've got colleagues working in Japan as well at the moment. So, yeah. (01:21:35):
undefined

Speaker1: Not in the U.S.? (01:21:40):
undefined

Speaker0: Well, there have been in the U.S., and a couple of my colleagues, they are from the U.S. (01:21:42):
undefined

Speaker0: So, hopefully there will be more ever there as well at some future time, yeah. (01:21:48):
undefined

Speaker1: I have to ask, because you mentioned megaliths also. So do you feel that there (01:21:53):
undefined

Speaker1: is a connection between the megalithic culture in the UK and some of these other (01:21:57):
undefined

Speaker1: ones in North America or around the world? (01:22:02):
undefined

Speaker1: A bit of left field question, but you mentioned scale circles. So I thought. (01:22:04):
undefined

Speaker0: Well, I really can only speculate about that. I would love to believe there was. I don't know. (01:22:09):
undefined

Speaker0: I mean, the megalithic culture that came into what we now call UK. (01:22:16):
undefined

Speaker0: I mean, we're talking about, I think, about 8,000 years ago. (01:22:21):
undefined

Speaker0: Actually, they started building on Stonehenge about 8,000 years ago. (01:22:25):
undefined

Speaker0: And then the big megaliths came a bit later than that. (01:22:30):
undefined

Speaker0: So whether they were connected with the cultures, directly connected with the (01:22:34):
undefined

Speaker0: people in the Americas, I don't know. (01:22:38):
undefined

Speaker0: It would be lovely to think so, but I can only speculate about that, really. (01:22:42):
undefined

Speaker1: All right. Well, if people want to know, if people want to find out about your (01:22:47):
undefined

Speaker1: book and you and the retreats that are going on and where should they look (01:22:50):
undefined

Speaker0: Well the book is coming out (01:22:55):
undefined

Speaker0: actually on the 15th of october in the usa you (01:22:58):
undefined

Speaker0: can pre-order it if you go to my website (01:23:02):
undefined

Speaker0: there's a page on there the website's named after me carlos philip glover.com (01:23:05):
undefined

Speaker0: so there's a page there where you can click through and pre-order or buy the (01:23:11):
undefined

Speaker0: book that that i'm very grateful if you do that and I hope you really enjoy (01:23:15):
undefined

Speaker0: it. I think it is actually a good book. (01:23:20):
undefined

Speaker0: I mean, we have this saying in England, I would say that, wouldn't I? (01:23:23):
undefined

Speaker0: But actually, a lot of people have said that to me. (01:23:28):
undefined

Speaker0: So that's one thing. And the other one that I just mentioned, (01:23:32):
undefined

Speaker0: the evocative leadership mastery, again, (01:23:35):
undefined

Speaker0: to just Google evocative leadership mastery, you should find out more information (01:23:38):
undefined

Speaker0: about that or get in touch with me directly through my website. (01:23:44):
undefined

Speaker1: All right. (01:23:48):
undefined

Speaker0: And whatever you do, whether you don't, I mean, just want to wish people well (01:23:50):
undefined

Speaker0: with their journey, whatever they do with it. (01:23:57):
undefined

Speaker0: We're all growing together. (01:23:59):
undefined

Speaker1: Yes yes and i really that maybe we should cap it there but thank you for those (01:24:03):
undefined

Speaker1: well wishes for everyone i think that was a that was a great conversation and (01:24:09):
undefined

Speaker0: Yeah i really appreciated that. (01:24:13):
undefined

Speaker1: Me too really uh wishing you luck with your book too thank you very (01:24:14):
undefined

Speaker0: Much jason i'm hoping to get a copy of your book about john d i haven't done (01:24:18):
undefined

Speaker0: that yet but i'm quite interested in that too so. (01:24:24):
undefined

Speaker1: All right. Well, it was wonderful to speak. (01:24:28):
undefined

Speaker0: Thanks very much for this. Yeah. Bye-bye. (01:24:30):
undefined

Speaker1: Magic.me is waiting for you M-A-G-I-C-K dot (01:24:33):
undefined

Speaker1: M-E where you can learn all of the skills of the (01:24:37):
undefined

Speaker1: western and eastern esoteric tradition so that you can get to your goal which (01:24:40):
undefined

Speaker1: is discovering your true will and true self in this life so that you can become (01:24:45):
undefined

Speaker1: the person that you were always meant to be that maybe distractions and other (01:24:50):
undefined

Speaker1: people's expectations have covered up don't worry. (01:24:55):
undefined

Speaker1: The gold is still there for you to unveil and bring to the world because that's what we need. (01:24:58):
undefined

Speaker1: Most of all, you at your best. (01:25:05):
undefined

Speaker1: All right. Magic.me, M-A-G-I-C-K.me. Lots of love. See you next time. (01:25:08):
undefined

All Episodes

Episode Transcript

Popular Podcasts

On Purpose with Jay Shetty

Dateline NBC

24/7 News: The Latest

.css-15opob5{left:0;position:absolute;top:0.8rem;} All Episodes

.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}Ep. 225: The Medicine Wheel Unveiled with Carlos Glover

Episode Transcript

Popular Podcasts

.css-r6mb8g{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:1;overflow:hidden;}On Purpose with Jay Shetty

Dateline NBC

24/7 News: The Latest

All Episodes

Ep. 225: The Medicine Wheel Unveiled with Carlos Glover

On Purpose with Jay Shetty