December 11, 2024 • 56 mins
“Because They Need Us” is a page-turner that reads like a thriller as Judie Mancuso faces off against powerful interests making $ off animal abuse. Order now: https://shorturl.at/REtC5 Mancuso is a powerhouse who has passed many crucial laws to save animals, with a focus on California, the world’s 5th largest economy. Now, thanks to her new tell-all book, she’s revealing her most successful methods and strategies! UnchainedTV’s Jane Velez-Mitchell is talking to Judie and her right hand man, attorney Nick Sackett, about it all. Through her organization, Social Compassion in Legislation, Mancuso has pushed through a ban on selling puppy mill dogs in California pet stores, a California ban on selling cosmetics that are tested on animals, a law that allows dogs in restaurant patios and many, many more crucial pieces of legislation. How does she do it? What can you do to help? Let’s find out.
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Episode Transcript
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(00:00):
Jump to the next phase of human evolution?
All it takes is one simple choice.
Now here's your host, Jane Velez Mitchell.
We've got an exciting show for you because
we're talking to Judy Mancuso, and she has
an instant bestseller.
It's called Because They Need Us, and she
(00:20):
reveals the secrets of how she's been the
driving force behind almost 30 laws that protect
animals.
Her book, I couldn't put it down, it
reads like a thriller.
She goes up against these very powerful interests
that exploit animals, and now she is here
to tell us exactly how she did it,
along with the right-hand man, Nick Sackett.
Together, they run Social Compassion in Legislation, and
(00:44):
she has passed almost 30 bills to save
animals.
Do you know how hard that is?
30 bills.
I am very excited to introduce the one
and only Judy Mancuso.
Hopefully, you'll get her book because I literally
could not put it down.
(01:04):
I was reading it until midnight last night.
Judy, you start out with this incredible story
of how you went up against a very
powerful man representing a very powerful industry, and
you spoke truth to power.
Tell us about that.
Sometimes, we find ourselves fighting bills.
(01:29):
The goal of my group was to bring
legislation forward that saves and protects animals, but
at the same time, there's other folks doing
legislation that would harm animals.
That is what we were faced with.
California had banned the sale of crocodile and
(01:53):
alligator skins in the 70s.
Now, all of a sudden, there was a
sunset, meaning that the law could go away,
whether it would get reinstated or not.
There was a move to do away with
(02:16):
this law from the alligator breeders in Louisiana,
and so we had to pivot to fight
that bill because we didn't want the cruelty
and that market to start back up.
A guy walks in to a meeting room.
(02:37):
What happened?
Well, he proceeded to tell me that we
had common ground, which we did not.
Then, he actually segued into offering us money
to go away and stop fighting the bill
(02:58):
because we had killed a couple versions of
it, and they were trying to get another
one going.
He offered us money.
How much money?
Well, at first, it was $500,000.
Wow.
You said?
No.
(03:18):
Why would I take money from an industry
that I am 100% against and trying
to prevent from proliferating in our state?
It would be opposite to our values.
He was trying to- Then, what did
he do?
Well, he was trying to tell me, but
(03:39):
I could use it to further our work.
Then, the number went up to, what about
$1 million?
You could spread it around to some of
your friends, too.
I wasn't having any of it.
It just wasn't going to happen, so we
(04:00):
ended the conversation, and he left in a
huff.
You have worked with so many celebrities.
There's Pierce Brosnan, and there you are with
the governors of the state of California, Bob
Barker, so many.
There you are with Hillary Clinton.
(04:21):
They're in a group that's Jean-Paul D
'Aujourd and, of course, Joaquin Phoenix.
You have mobilised celebrities, and this is your
battle to pass the Cruelty-Free Cosmetics Act.
Tell us about that because that may very
well be your most famous piece of legislation.
(04:41):
How did you get the Cruelty-Free Cosmetics
Act passed?
I always wanted to do something.
I dreamed about stopping animal testing because it
is the cruellest of cruel and how many
animals die, but I just couldn't imagine how
to make a dent in it, and it's
(05:03):
such an enormous industry.
I met Dr. Neil Bernard with Physicians Committee
for Responsible Medicine, and he congratulated me on
the work that I was doing.
Of course, I admire his work so much.
He said, maybe we could join forces in
(05:25):
the future.
We had a brainstorming session with him and
his staff, and we came up with what
if we could pass a law in the
state of California, which is the fifth largest
economy in the world, and that would stop
selling cosmetics and personal hygiene products that have
(05:51):
been tested on animals.
It seemed like an enormous, tall order, but
if we could move the market, then this
would further the market of cruelty-free, which
is what people want anyway, a lot of
(06:13):
people want, and do away with these cruel
personal hygiene products and cosmetics.
We got an author, which was Senator Kathleen
Galgiani, and off we went.
That's a photo you're showing of one of
our big press conferences, and we got it
(06:35):
done.
It's the law in California and has been
copied in, I don't know, maybe 11 states.
It changes every year, so I don't know
what the current number is.
This is a way to affect change in
our state with 40 million people, fifth largest
economy, but then have a ripple effect across
(06:59):
the world, across other states.
You're saving animals exponentially.
Nick Sackett, I want to bring you in
because you have worked so closely with Judy
Mancuso.
There's so much legislation here that you guys
(07:20):
have passed, almost 30 bills that have been
copied.
Many of them have been copied.
They get passed here in California, which, as
Judy mentioned, is the fifth largest economy in
the world.
They get copied in other places like New
York, for example, which is another very important
state.
How do you do it?
(07:40):
What do you think the secret sauce is
that makes social compassion and legislation so effective?
Thanks, Jane.
I have to say it's Judy's and our
longevity in Sacramento that is tremendously helpful.
Legislators in Sacramento, they know who we are.
(08:02):
If they have questions about laws pertaining to
animals, many times they will reach out to
us directly rather than us going to them.
Judy has been working on these issues in
California for decades now.
She has a long history up and down
the state.
(08:24):
I think that's number one.
Number two is we're always looking to collaborate
with other groups, PETA, Physicians Committee for Responsible
Medicine, Centre for Biological Diversity.
Anyone who wants to work in a coalition
to get things done, we're willing to do
that.
I think that's number two.
Number three is just our commitment to the
(08:48):
cause.
Like Judy said, we turned down a million
dollars just to not oppose a bill.
People see that.
They didn't see that until Judy wrote it
in the book because it was behind closed
doors, but it's a reflection of our values
that we don't back down from our values.
That's how we get things done over the
years.
(09:08):
Well, you really have become a force in
Sacramento.
Given that California is the fifth largest economy
in the world, that means you are a
force across the United States, as well as
the world, as other states and even other
(09:29):
nations pick up on some of the things
you've done.
Now, one of the biggest and one of
the earliest things you did was the licence
plate called the Pet Lover's Licence Plate.
It's the Spay and Neuter Saves Lives Licence
Plate.
I have one.
Tell us about this and how it raises
(09:49):
money for spay-neuter and how people can
still get it to this day.
I think everybody who is driving a car
in California should have one of these licence
plates.
How do they get it and why is
it important?
Well, if they did have it, we could
solve our pet overpopulation problem because there's over
(10:10):
30 million registered vehicles in the state of
California.
We wouldn't need every one of them to
solve it, but boy, if we had a
big share of it, we could.
You go to dmv.ca.gov and when
you're registering your vehicle, there's a place where
(10:32):
you can choose a speciality plate.
When it brings down the list, you pick
the Pet Lover's Plate.
$40 from your registration every year goes into
a fund.
Then once a year, that money gets distributed
(10:52):
to providers of spay and neuter, which can
be shelters or vet clinics.
Right now, we're at $2.3 million that
has been raised through the plate.
(11:12):
That's an impressive number and it is so
exciting, but it could be so much more.
Thank you for bringing that up because I'd
love to urge everyone in California, please get
a Pet Lover's Licence Plate.
We need you.
Now, California is in the midst of a
pet overpopulation crisis.
(11:33):
How do I know?
Because I have two pets.
This one, whose name is Wednesday, somebody tried
to drop her at a shelter and the
shelter actually said, we have no room.
Put her back where you found her.
Luckily, somebody heard this who was a rescuer
and grabbed her.
(11:53):
She had no identification, nothing.
This is a crisis.
The shelters are overflowing.
Why is that happening?
How does the Pet Lover's Licence Plate and
all of your efforts fit into that, Judy?
Well, it's overbreeding and oops litters and people
(12:15):
getting animals from out of state, out of
country.
So unaltered animals having many, many litters that
find their way into the shelters and then
there's not enough space.
So the shelters euthanise the animals and that's
(12:40):
what pet overpopulation is.
When we are literally killing animals, putting them
down because we don't have enough space, we
can't hold them, we can't help them to
get adopted.
That is an overpopulation crisis.
And we've been working on legislation over the
(13:03):
years to mitigate it, which has been helpful.
Our microchipping bill, one of the problems when
animals come into shelters, the reason why we
can't get them back home is because they
lack identification.
So we did a microchip bill that requires
every dog, cat leaving a shelter to be
(13:29):
microchipped.
And that way, if they find their way
into a shelter, you scan them or maybe
not even in a shelter.
A lot of times if they're just out
in running the streets and animal control or
Good Samaritan with a reader can scan them,
find out where they live, contact the owner
(13:50):
and get them back home.
And then we did another bill that kicked
puppy mills out of pet shops so that
only rescue or shelter animals could be in
pet shops.
So, I mean, bottom line is it's overbreeding
too many animals and not enough homes.
(14:10):
But it's also a problem with the powers
that be, not recognising that spay and neuter
is the answer.
Obviously you spay one animal and you prevent
dozens, hundreds, even thousands of animals down the
road from being born.
Why is it that more isn't being done?
(14:31):
We've got this pet lover's licence plate.
I mean, is all that money being used
to spay and neuter animals?
There's something really wrong.
And it seems that it's so obvious what
the solution is, spay neuter, and yet animals
are being put down all across the state
(14:52):
of California, Judy.
Well, it is all getting used for the
spay and neuter.
There's a little bit that's taken for administration
fees, meaning overhead.
The California Department of Food and Ag oversee
it.
So there's some money taken out to pay
(15:13):
their staff for the time to gather the
grants, distribute the funds, but overall it is
getting used.
It's just not enough is the problem.
There are literally hundreds of thousands of animals
that are getting put down.
(15:33):
So we need an enormous amount of money
to spay and neuter so that we can
get all the animals spayed and neutered that
their family can't afford it.
And then most recently, we have a shortage
of veterinarians in the state and registered veterinary
(15:54):
technicians.
So there's also a professional shortage that we
are trying to address.
So, I mean, this is a crisis.
I think everybody's acknowledging that it's a crisis.
You're doing incredible work, but you can't do
it alone.
Nick, what are your thoughts about what we
(16:14):
need to do to fix this problem?
I happen to live in Los Angeles.
It's a huge problem in Los Angeles, but
it's apparently up and down the state.
Yeah, absolutely.
You know, one of the hardest things to
do in politics is to get that ounce
of prevention so that you don't need a
(16:35):
pound of cure.
And so that's the problem with getting money
up front to do more spay and neutering
so that we don't have this pet overpopulation
crisis.
Thankfully, I do think that there is movement
politically in that legislators and other folks, mayors,
(16:57):
county supervisors, they are seeing the wall.
And I feel like we are on the
precipice of a breakthrough where maybe we can
get that prevention so that we're not spending
so much on the cure later.
Absolutely.
(17:17):
But let's talk about some brighter subjects when
it comes to animals, specifically dogs.
You passed the Dining With Dogs bill, which
you go into depth here in your book
because they need us.
And I'm happy to say I was a
part of this whole effort.
And it really has revolutionised our relationship with
(17:39):
dogs because we can take them places.
Before you passed the Dining With Dogs bill,
we couldn't go to outdoor patios, and it
really penalised and persecuted dog owners.
So Judy, tell us about the passage of
the Dining With Dogs Act, which passed here
in California and then it passed in New
(18:00):
York too.
Well, absolutely.
I mean, at first, when I first got
my dogs, I thought that it was fine
to bring your dogs to an outdoor patio
because I would see them there.
And I went to a restaurant, they said,
(18:23):
no, you can't have your dogs here.
And I said, well, but we just did
it at another one of your restaurants like
two weeks ago.
And they said, no, it's a law.
And I said, well, that's a law that
needs to be changed.
So I went home and dug through the
code on the California legislation website and found
(18:45):
that sure enough, dogs were prohibited from being
in a restaurant, whether it was inside or
outside, unless they were a service dog.
So we moved a piece of legislation in
California that said, if a restaurant had an
outdoor patio area, and if they elected to
(19:09):
allow animals, dogs to come, they would need
to be on leash.
They need to stay on the ground.
There was a whole list of things that
the California Department of Public Health required.
So we ran the legislation, we had the
restaurant association with us, and it was a
(19:33):
no-brainer, and really was, and got to
the finish line and signed into law.
So we made it so that now, if
a restaurant has this opportunity that they have
the outdoor area, that they allow it.
And these two have gone to so many
restaurants, I can't tell you, they are about
(19:55):
town, but that was a really, really popular
bill.
And it was something that everybody could get
behind.
And it's too bad that some of the
more controversial ones aren't quite as popular, but
you do have bipartisan support for a lot
of your bills.
Isn't it true, Nick, that sometimes the only
(20:16):
thing Republicans and Democrats can agree on is
that they love their dogs?
Absolutely.
We work with Democrats and Republicans all the
time, particularly on companion animal issues, Republicans will
line up to support.
We worked on a bill to get rid
(20:38):
of dogs that were kept to give their
blood in cages their entire life.
We worked with a Republican legislator to end
that practise or to phase it out in
California.
We are working with, last year we worked
with a Republican legislator to help raise breeder
(20:59):
standards and get shelter animals online.
So these kinds of issues, they have to
be bipartisan.
In California, Democrats do have a super majority,
but that does not mean that we disregard
Republicans.
We work across the aisle all the time.
So let me ask you guys, I want
(21:21):
to get back to the Cruelty-Free Cosmetics
Act, because to me, you've passed so many
bills, almost 30, and these are historic, ground
-changing, groundbreaking bills.
But in my eyes, the Cruelty-Free Cosmetics
Act was just a monumental achievement because there
(21:42):
were so many powerful forces against what you
were doing.
So many industries were up against you.
However, according to this book, you got two
very successful corporations to get behind you.
One was John Paul Mitchell, which is the
(22:03):
beauty products, completely cruelty-free, and the other
is Lush.
Why was getting those two companies so instrumental
in defeating the opposition, which were also companies
who didn't want to change, Judy?
Because they had already implemented a cruelty-free
(22:26):
business model.
John Paul DeJoy started his company with a
friend, I think it was 1975 or so,
John Paul Mitchell products.
And so he lived it, and for decades,
(22:46):
being a very successful company, dealing with the
supply chain, making sure everything was cruelty-free,
and the same with Lush, who had 300
stores in North America, I believe the number
was at the time.
So when we first introduced the bill and
(23:08):
we met with the opposition, the first thing
they said was, okay, well, you're going to
make everybody go out of business, and they're
going to move all their operations offshore, and
all these American jobs are going to be
lost, and there's no way to be able
to prove in the supply chain that everything
(23:30):
is cruelty-free.
And if we didn't have these enormous companies,
successful companies on our side to be able
to push back and say, it just isn't
true, and here's why, and we've been doing
it, we wouldn't have been able to get
it done.
It was mission critical to have them.
(23:53):
And here again is you at the state
capitol in Sacramento with a bunch of people
fighting for this bill, and obviously the giant
wrap provided by PETA, which is one of
the organisations you work with very closely, along
with Physicians Committee for Responsible Medicine, you as
a team of organisations pushing this, you also
(24:18):
had a lot of celebrities, and we've already
established that you do work with a lot
of celebrities, but what was the role that
celebrities played, Judy, in pushing this over the
finish line and other bills over the finish
line?
How do you utilise the celebrities?
Well, you know, the products manufacturers, they sign
(24:44):
on celebrities for millions and millions of dollars
to sell their products, and it's just that
they have a bigger audience.
People listen to them, they respect them, and
so if someone is saying, Bob Barker, Spay
and Uter saves lives at the end of
(25:06):
all of his shows throughout his lifetime, you
know, that really helps because, I mean, there's
a very small amount of people that know
who I am, but boy, do they know
who Bob Barker is, or Pierce Brosnan, or
Jean-Paul DuJour walking Phoenix, so it just
(25:29):
makes an enormous difference to have their voice
and their audiences pay attention to these really
important issues that otherwise they may not hear
about.
Well, I was there when you had celebrities
like Alicia Silverstone show up in Sacramento and
(25:50):
then walk around and meet the legislators, and
they go gaga.
They are just like anybody else.
When they see a celebrity, they get all
excited, and it really lets you get your
foot in the door and get into those
offices because they're not going to turn Alicia
Silverstone down and say, no, you can't come
in.
That's exactly right.
(26:11):
They do.
They enjoy it.
They like meeting them.
They want to hear what they have to
say.
You know, in Hollywood, everybody sees celebrities at
restaurants walking down the street, but it's not
exactly the same in Sacramento.
So, you know, when the celebrities come, yes,
(26:31):
they get attention, and definitely it's fun for
everyone.
Let's talk about the time that you heard
that, I believe it was the California Department
of Fish and Wildlife, had decided to basically
put out a hit on a mountain lion,
and these mountain lions, many environmental organisations are
(26:53):
desperate to save them, and yet here we
have our government going out and basically saying
we're going to kill them.
So what happened there?
Because that was something where social compassion and
legislation like moved into action very rapidly.
Yeah, this goes back to what I was
saying at the beginning of the show where,
you know, yes, the group was founded to
(27:16):
run legislation and do things that are positive
impacts for animals, saving and protecting them.
But sometimes we hear about things that we
have to go to battle and fight.
And what was on the news in the
evening on the radio was that there was
(27:36):
a mountain lion that was beloved, P-42,
or P-45, I think.
Yeah, P-45 was this one.
And he had eaten or attacked some alpacas,
which is terrible.
I mean, we all love alpacas too, but
(27:58):
the bottom line was the people had brought
these animals from outside the country, had them
in mountain lion territory, and they weren't protected.
So, you know, to kill a mountain lion
that we're trying to save from going extinct
(28:20):
because it's doing what a mountain lion would
do was absurd.
And so, yeah, we jumped into gear and
we raised a lot of noise and ruckus
over it and were able to stop it
and ended up helping the rancher to build
(28:40):
an enclosure for the alpacas.
And you had a news conference.
And for those who are watching, we're looking
at a snapshot from the news conference.
Well, we kind of took over.
We had heard that there was going to
be a meeting in Agora Hills about this
(29:02):
issue and safety that Fish and Game was
having.
And we decided to try to get there
and have a press conference prior to their
meeting to put pressure on them to not
kill P-45.
So it was, some were calling it a
(29:24):
guerrilla press conference because we had sent out
the press release and somehow Fish and Game
didn't get the memo.
And what had happened is, gosh, I mean,
there was probably a half dozen to a
dozen news trucks there.
Before I got there, I left Laguna Beach
(29:46):
trying to get to Agora Hills.
It was like a Friday and it took
me over three hours to get there.
And when I pulled in, the outside was
just lined with news trucks with their satellite
dishes up and everybody was like, get on
the stage, get on the stage, hurry.
And I ran to the stage and began
(30:08):
our little press conference, which turned out to
be very big and was on every channel
and was on a major morning show.
But it all worked and we were able
to save his life.
And it's all described in this book.
Now, if people donate to Social Compassion and
(30:29):
Legislation, $30 or more, they can get the
book sent to them for free.
And I have to tell you, these anecdotes
that we're discussing, they really play out in
very dramatic fashion.
Like I said, this book, it's not, yes,
it's about laws and legislation, but it really
reads like a thriller because you have so
many dramatic moments where people are trying to
(30:52):
shut you down.
People are offering you a million dollars.
People are threatening you.
There were some phrases that I learned that
I didn't know existed.
So I'd like you to define them.
And they come up in the book.
What does it mean astro-turfing, Nick Sackett?
What is astro-turfing?
Oh, geez.
(31:13):
Astro-turfing.
Judy, this is a term that you've used
before.
So I'm going to toss that back over
to Judy.
Well, that was in reference to hiring people
to look like they are support or opposition
to a bill.
(31:35):
So what had happened, this was on the
FER bill, that when there's people opposing a
bill, but they don't actually have people who
are opposed to the bill.
It's just the industry.
They will go and hire people to come
and act like they are opposition to the
(31:58):
bill.
And that's what that was referring to in
that chapter.
Yeah.
And in this book, you describe how in
this legislative hearing, all these people come up
against your bill and you tell one of
the legislators, those people are hired and she
doesn't believe you.
And you have to go and do some
(32:19):
investigative work to prove it.
Tell us about that.
Well, yeah, no, I could tell they were
hired right away.
I mean, after being at the Capitol for
17 years, you learn a lot and it
is by experience.
It's not something that you get taught in
(32:40):
a university.
So when these folks came to the microphone
one after another, I said, they're hired.
And Julie, who was with me at the
time said, how do you know that?
And I said, well, I just feel that
they are, I said, but I'm sure we
(33:01):
could probably find some proof.
And so Julie went and start investigating.
She did the digging and sure enough found
Facebook pages and others that were recruiting people
to be a part of this opposition.
(33:21):
And then when you went to the website
that they were promoting, they were actually paying,
they were recruiting students and paying them a
hundred dollars each to come and testify against
this bill.
So that's AstroTurfing.
I've seen that quite a few times when
I've gone to animal organisations, having a gala,
(33:44):
particularly PETA and you see these people with
signs, PETA kills or whatever.
And I asked them a question, well, tell
me what's your argument?
No clue because they're being paid.
You can tell that they're being paid.
So beware when you see people who are
going up against an organisation like PETA, which
you work with very closely and they're making
(34:07):
all sorts of accusations and you try to
get details.
They have no clue because they're actually being
paid by the hour.
I even saw one go on break because
they had to go on a lunch break,
which is not what activists do.
They don't say, okay, I'm going to drop
my sign and go on my lunch break
and come back.
So some of the other phrases that I
(34:28):
learned reading your book, you got to read
this, people.
It really is so interesting.
And I learned so much NASCAR letters.
What are NASCAR letters?
I'll let Nick take this one because he's
always having to do them.
A NASCAR letter, for those who don't know
NASCAR, a lot of the drivers that drive
(34:52):
these cars, it's race car driving.
On their uniform, they will have patches of
all of their sponsors.
And so they just have McDonald's and mobile
and they're covered.
And so sometimes when we need to turn
in a support letter or an opposition letter
against a bill or for a bill, and
(35:14):
we want to get a lot of organisations
to sign on to that letter, we have
to get their logos and their signatures and
we slap them onto a letter.
And the first page, sometimes into the second
page will just be their logos.
So we call that a NASCAR letter.
And it's just a big group of organisations
that are opposing or supporting a bill.
(35:36):
While I have you, what's relational lobbying?
Relational lobbying is really what it sounds like.
You have a relationship with a legislator and
so you're going to have access to that
legislator based on your history, based on how
(35:57):
they know you, not necessarily based on the
policy that's being discussed at hand.
So having those relationships is key because if
they don't know who you are and you
really need to talk to them about a
particular bill, you're relying on that relationship.
And what about lobbying up?
That's another phrase that comes up.
(36:17):
Lobbying up is hiring as many lobbyists as
you possibly can.
And I think what that's referring to in
the book is during the cosmetic fight, the
opposition hired tonnes of lobbyists.
We were in a meeting, an initial meeting
about the bill, and the opposition walked in
(36:39):
with 10, 12 lobbyists.
And there we were with just me, Judy,
and our contract lobbyists and a couple of
scientists, but no other lobbyists.
And so lobbying up is getting that lobby
firepower so that as soon as the opposition
(36:59):
sends their lobbyists in, well, we can send
our lobbyists in and counter their arguments.
And you have had a lot of success,
Judy, because some very, very important people who
are people of means have seen what you're
doing.
They love animals and they've donated.
Let's talk a little bit about Dr. Gary
(37:20):
Michelson who has had such a profound impact
on your efforts.
Well, that's right.
When I first started back in 2007, I
was doing it on my own dollar, but
found out very quickly, which I discuss in
(37:43):
depth in the book, of how I needed
to get organised.
And organised means having representation, having lobbyists, having
a big grassroots support network.
And even like Nick was saying, getting to
(38:03):
know legislators that you're not just a one
-hit wonder, that you're going to be there
year after year after year.
And so Dr. Michelson was one of the
first people I met along with another man
named Stephen Bernheim.
And we did a meeting in Los Angeles
(38:26):
and everyone invited everyone to come hear what
I was doing.
I was going to form my nonprofit and
that we needed to raise funds to start
hiring lobbyists and become a real group.
And so that's where it all started.
And they have been supporting my group since
(38:47):
then, along with a lot of others that
whether it's a $5 donation every month, $1
,000 here, 5,000, 10,000.
I mean, it's taken a lot to be
able to afford running these bills.
(39:08):
And that's why it wasn't getting done before.
And I also talk about my frustration with
the big groups who sit on outside of
PETA and PCRM, Centre for Biological Diversity, these
groups we work with.
But there's many groups that make lots, hundreds
(39:31):
of millions of dollars that they're just literally
have in the bank and that they spend
more money on operations and fundraising than anything
else.
So my little group, we are doing really
big things and relying on folks like Dr.
(39:52):
Michelson, Stephen, and all the small donors, everybody
to keep us going.
Now, let's talk a little bit about why
you are perfectly positioned to influence not just
California and the world.
As we've mentioned, California is the fifth largest
economy in the world, but it's also a
trend leader.
(40:13):
And you know what they say, what happens
in Hollywood spreads to the rest of the
nation and the world.
The Dining with Dogs Act was a perfect
example.
You go into it in the book, how
it passed here in California.
And then I happened to be in New
York at the time and I was like,
dang, I had three Chihuahua mixes and I
wanted to go to restaurants.
(40:34):
And you brought your act to New York
and we got it passed.
Tell us about how you're able to do
that.
It was not a small task, and I
have you to thank to be a huge
part of that.
So I had my lobbyist in California gave
(40:55):
me some recommendations of some firms in New
York.
So I flew to New York, I interviewed
the lobbyist, we went and spoke with a
legislator, assembly member Linda Rosenthal from Manhattan, who
happens to be a huge animal lover and
(41:18):
would be strong enough to carry this legislation.
Because there's a lot of legislators, they don't
want to stick their neck out for animals.
They just don't.
But she had a reputation that she absolutely
would.
And so met with the assembly member, met
(41:40):
with lobbyist, raised money, hired them.
And then actually without your help, Jane, we
wouldn't have gotten it done with the grassroots
support in New York.
And Nick also at the time was not
working with us in California.
(42:02):
He was in New York and just donating
his time pro bono to us at that
point.
And he was able to go to some
of those hearings and meetings too.
So we got it done.
And that was our first out of state
effort.
Let's talk a little bit about the most
important issue that affects the most animals, and
that's our food system.
(42:24):
And it's very sad because the number of
animals killed for food is not going down,
unfortunately.
I mean, literally, globally, it's 90 billion animals
every year.
I can't even say it because it's so
mind boggling.
And you can see the majority are chickens.
And then, of course, the environmental impact.
(42:47):
Here's a New York Times article.
It says vegans are responsible for 75%
less in greenhouse gases than meat eaters.
Obviously, if people transition to a plant-based
lifestyle, they're going to have a much lower
carbon footprint.
Now, you've been able to do some things
here in California to encourage a plant-based
lifestyle in hospitals, prisons, and schools.
(43:10):
Tell us about that.
Well, I will tell you personally, I went
vegan over 30 years ago now.
And I know that we can't do enough
to promote it and to help people maintain
the diet they choose and to help get
(43:34):
supported in school.
So the first bill that we did mandated
plant-based meal options in hospitals and other
kind of medical facilities and prisons.
We originally had schools in it, but that
(43:55):
got taken out because we knew that that
was going to be too big of a
fight and that there would need to be
some funding to go along with that.
So then we addressed schools later in a
funding bill to give money towards plant-based
food and milk in schools.
(44:17):
So we did get that done.
It was a huge accomplishment, but obviously there's
always more to do.
And yeah.
Okay.
I think I need a clarification because what
happened exactly with the schools?
Because we understand that to this day, there
are students who have to get a doctor's
(44:39):
note and there's been even lawsuits.
So just elaborate on that a little bit.
Yeah.
Well, and I can pass it to Nick
because he worked intimately on it as well.
So go ahead, take it Nick.
Sure.
At first, we tried to pass a bill
to set up a permanent grant programme.
(45:01):
But just to give you a quick reason,
the Cattlemen's Association and the other animal ag
industries came in and said they didn't want
vegan propaganda in our schools, which made us
all kind of snicker because they've been in
our schools promoting got milk for decades.
(45:22):
In any case, two years ago, we were
able to get a hundred million dollars in
the California budget to help schools upgrade their
kitchens to serve plant-based meals, including, and
milks.
So, you know, that has, and we partnered
with Friends of the Earth on that effort,
(45:43):
who gets into schools and really helps them
develop their plant-based programmes.
And all of that money, hundred million dollars
worth money went to those kinds of upgrades
and training staff so that they can cook
plant-based meals.
Because if you have kitchen staff that, you
know, doesn't know what to do, and they
just usually are used to taking a hamburger
(46:05):
and slapping it together, well, then that's what
they're going to serve the kids.
But once they have that knowledge and that
training, then they can broaden the plant-based
meals.
And that's exactly what the funding was for.
Have you had a chance to see how
it's going?
Has there been any audit or examination of
how schools are implementing?
(46:25):
Because implementation is one of the key aspects
of legislation.
I mean, I will talk to Prop 2
and Prop 12 passed by the voters of
California saying they want certain standards for animals
that are being bred for food in the
state.
And to my knowledge, there's never been a
prosecution based on either of those propositions, even
(46:51):
though there've been many examples of undercover investigations
that show that terrible things are happening and
prosecutors, district attorneys in various counties being pleaded
with, please enforce this law that the California
voters passed.
And they just refuse to do it because
they're beholden somehow to industry.
(47:14):
Yeah, absolutely.
It's a big problem.
Enforcement of animal cruelty laws is a big
problem across California and across the nation.
You know, I'll give you an example.
Puppy mills, they are supposed to be regulated
by the USDA.
And most puppy millers are breaking all the
(47:36):
Animal Welfare Act provisions, but they only get
a slap on the wrist if that.
So what you're saying is a huge problem.
We need more whistleblowers.
We need people from within these corporations to
speak out because local DAs and city attorneys,
(47:59):
they just don't want to take the word
of activists who are bringing them evidence.
Well, let me just say this.
It's not the word.
There's many organisations that have gone videotaping what's
happening in factory farms in California and showing
the horrors and presented with concrete evidence on
(48:21):
videotape of what's happening.
And the district attorneys refuse to prosecute.
It's not taking anybody's word.
Right, right.
No, it's special interest having a death grip
on our local jurisdictions, on legislators.
I mean, that's another thing that the book
(48:42):
is about, is just how hard, even though
you've got the proof, to move people because
of the special interest grip.
And that's a huge piece of it.
We have done auditing at the state level.
We just got some audit results about forest
(49:06):
risk commodities being purchased by the state of
California that had to do with our efforts
with the Deforestation Free Procurement Act.
We did an audit on the pet lovers
licence plate to make sure that every dollar
was going to where it needed to go
and was being spent properly.
(49:26):
So we have done audits at the state,
which has been mission critical, and they do
an incredible job.
But what you're talking about, about auditing prisons
and schools, about plant-based meals and hospitals,
it takes a lot of labour to call
(49:49):
and spot check.
And this is something that my group has
been discussing and looking into how we can
start doing that and doing some audits ourselves
that are more informal, but reaching out to
these facilities and asking for the menus.
(50:10):
So that's something that we are looking at,
Jane, and something we're very interested in and
wanting to work with PETA and PCRM and
the other groups that helped us over the
years to get these things passed and now
going back and making sure that they're getting
enforced.
And it's a process, not an event.
(50:31):
The first step is to pass the law,
which you have done.
You can't be asked to do everything under
the sun, although I know you try.
But when it comes to hospitals, I've personally
had a number of people say that they
cited that law and said, you have to
give me, and what they were given was
not substantial.
(50:51):
In other words, there's resistance.
And the people in these hospitals feel like,
I either don't want to do it or
they challenged the law.
Just the other day, I was at a
place and they said, your dog is not
allowed outside.
And I said, yes, it is.
This is a restaurant and there's something called
(51:12):
the Dining with Dogs Act.
And he asked me for the bill and
I called Nick.
And I said, Nick, will you send me
that legislation?
Now, the funny part is by the time
I went back to the restaurant, that person
had been let go.
Not the friendliest person on the planet, let's
put it that way.
But I had to actually, I was planning
on showing this person the law and saying,
(51:34):
yes, we're allowed as long as the owner
of the restaurant, and you're not the owner,
as long as the owner allows, and they
did, we're entitled to have our dogs on
this patio.
So it's really passing the law is the
first thing, but then it's enforcement.
And I'd really like to see more enforcement
with the hospitals, because obviously people are going
(51:55):
in there because they're suffering from whatever.
Cancer, heart disease, a lot of this has
been linked to dairy.
Processed meat is officially cancer causing, according to
the World Health Organisation.
So the idea that they're flouting this law
that you struggled so hard to pass is
outrageous, Judy.
Yes.
(52:15):
And we have helped people in hospitals before
that were like, hey, they're not giving me
a plant-based meal, and we sent them
the legislation as well.
And just in talking about this, I think
that we probably need to have a special
tab on our website that says, need help
(52:38):
with enforcement, and maybe giving recommendations on A,
just linking to the laws so people can
have it quickly to show people, or knowing
who to call within the local jurisdiction or
whether it's at the state to report that
(52:58):
they're not following the law.
So that is something we should look into,
and I'm glad it came up.
Well, a lot of things come up in
these conversations.
We often get to that point where we're
brainstorming on our podcasts.
We've got to wrap.
So please give us your final thoughts.
(53:20):
What's next?
Well, we've been trying to eliminate teachers using
live animal dissection in schools.
And it is not mandatory.
There's nothing in law that says that they
shall do it.
(53:40):
They elect to do it.
So we've had a couple of attempts at
trying to get rid of it, and we're
going to go back at it this year.
So that's one thing that we're working on.
The other action that we're looking into is
to bring out of state veterinarians in state
(54:03):
to be able to do high volume spay
and neuter.
So to get them a licence, to be
licenced in California as quickly as possible so
that they could do this, whether it's a
permanent full licence or a temporary licence.
We're looking into the logistics of all that
(54:25):
right now.
So we're working on that and the never
ending pet overpopulation crisis, unfortunately.
Well, I just want to say the two
of you are my heroes.
The amount of work that you have done
is mind boggling.
This book is a must read.
Oh, thank you.
(54:46):
Because if you donate to socialcompassionandlegislation.org, you
can get it sent to you.
Just donate $30 or more.
Your work is extraordinary.
And of course, I also would love everybody
to download Unchained TV.
We are the world's only streaming television network,
nonprofit, free for animals and the plant based
(55:09):
lifestyle.
So it's a vegan Netflix.
Okay, that's the craziest thing I've ever heard.
I love Unchained TV.
Unchained.
Unchained TV.
Your life will change.
It's just that easy.
Unchained TV has all sorts of content for
everybody.
Unchained TV changed my life.
Unchained TV is crushing it.
I love Unchained TV.
(55:30):
Unchained TV is my go to.
Unchained TV.
Who knew?
Unchained TV.
Yes.
Jump to the next phase of human evolution?
All it takes is one simple choice.
Now here's your host, Jane Velez Mitchell.
We've got an exciting show for you because
we're talking to Judy Mancuso, and she has
an instant bestseller.
It's called Because They Need Us, and she
(00:20):
reveals the secrets of how she's been the
driving force behind almost 30 laws that protect
animals.
Her book, I couldn't put it down, it
reads like a thriller.
She goes up against these very powerful interests
that exploit animals, and now she is here
to tell us exactly how she did it,
along with the right-hand man, Nick Sackett.
Together, they run Social Compassion in Legislation, and
(00:44):
she has passed almost 30 bills to save
animals.
Do you know how hard that is?
30 bills.
I am very excited to introduce the one
and only Judy Mancuso.
Hopefully, you'll get her book because I literally
could not put it down.
(01:04):
I was reading it until midnight last night.
Judy, you start out with this incredible story
of how you went up against a very
powerful man representing a very powerful industry, and
you spoke truth to power.
Tell us about that.
Sometimes, we find ourselves fighting bills.
(01:29):
The goal of my group was to bring
legislation forward that saves and protects animals, but
at the same time, there's other folks doing
legislation that would harm animals.
That is what we were faced with.
California had banned the sale of crocodile and
(01:53):
alligator skins in the 70s.
Now, all of a sudden, there was a
sunset, meaning that the law could go away,
whether it would get reinstated or not.
There was a move to do away with
(02:16):
this law from the alligator breeders in Louisiana,
and so we had to pivot to fight
that bill because we didn't want the cruelty
and that market to start back up.
A guy walks in to a meeting room.
(02:37):
What happened?
Well, he proceeded to tell me that we
had common ground, which we did not.
Then, he actually segued into offering us money
to go away and stop fighting the bill
(02:58):
because we had killed a couple versions of
it, and they were trying to get another
one going.
He offered us money.
How much money?
Well, at first, it was $500,000.
Wow.
You said?
No.
(03:18):
Why would I take money from an industry
that I am 100% against and trying
to prevent from proliferating in our state?
It would be opposite to our values.
He was trying to- Then, what did
he do?
Well, he was trying to tell me, but
(03:39):
I could use it to further our work.
Then, the number went up to, what about
$1 million?
You could spread it around to some of
your friends, too.
I wasn't having any of it.
It just wasn't going to happen, so we
(04:00):
ended the conversation, and he left in a
huff.
You have worked with so many celebrities.
There's Pierce Brosnan, and there you are with
the governors of the state of California, Bob
Barker, so many.
There you are with Hillary Clinton.
(04:21):
They're in a group that's Jean-Paul D
'Aujourd and, of course, Joaquin Phoenix.
You have mobilised celebrities, and this is your
battle to pass the Cruelty-Free Cosmetics Act.
Tell us about that because that may very
well be your most famous piece of legislation.
(04:41):
How did you get the Cruelty-Free Cosmetics
Act passed?
I always wanted to do something.
I dreamed about stopping animal testing because it
is the cruellest of cruel and how many
animals die, but I just couldn't imagine how
to make a dent in it, and it's
(05:03):
such an enormous industry.
I met Dr. Neil Bernard with Physicians Committee
for Responsible Medicine, and he congratulated me on
the work that I was doing.
Of course, I admire his work so much.
He said, maybe we could join forces in
(05:25):
the future.
We had a brainstorming session with him and
his staff, and we came up with what
if we could pass a law in the
state of California, which is the fifth largest
economy in the world, and that would stop
selling cosmetics and personal hygiene products that have
(05:51):
been tested on animals.
It seemed like an enormous, tall order, but
if we could move the market, then this
would further the market of cruelty-free, which
is what people want anyway, a lot of
(06:13):
people want, and do away with these cruel
personal hygiene products and cosmetics.
We got an author, which was Senator Kathleen
Galgiani, and off we went.
That's a photo you're showing of one of
our big press conferences, and we got it
(06:35):
done.
It's the law in California and has been
copied in, I don't know, maybe 11 states.
It changes every year, so I don't know
what the current number is.
This is a way to affect change in
our state with 40 million people, fifth largest
economy, but then have a ripple effect across
(06:59):
the world, across other states.
You're saving animals exponentially.
Nick Sackett, I want to bring you in
because you have worked so closely with Judy
Mancuso.
There's so much legislation here that you guys
(07:20):
have passed, almost 30 bills that have been
copied.
Many of them have been copied.
They get passed here in California, which, as
Judy mentioned, is the fifth largest economy in
the world.
They get copied in other places like New
York, for example, which is another very important
state.
How do you do it?
(07:40):
What do you think the secret sauce is
that makes social compassion and legislation so effective?
Thanks, Jane.
I have to say it's Judy's and our
longevity in Sacramento that is tremendously helpful.
Legislators in Sacramento, they know who we are.
(08:02):
If they have questions about laws pertaining to
animals, many times they will reach out to
us directly rather than us going to them.
Judy has been working on these issues in
California for decades now.
She has a long history up and down
the state.
(08:24):
I think that's number one.
Number two is we're always looking to collaborate
with other groups, PETA, Physicians Committee for Responsible
Medicine, Centre for Biological Diversity.
Anyone who wants to work in a coalition
to get things done, we're willing to do
that.
I think that's number two.
Number three is just our commitment to the
(08:48):
cause.
Like Judy said, we turned down a million
dollars just to not oppose a bill.
People see that.
They didn't see that until Judy wrote it
in the book because it was behind closed
doors, but it's a reflection of our values
that we don't back down from our values.
That's how we get things done over the
years.
(09:08):
Well, you really have become a force in
Sacramento.
Given that California is the fifth largest economy
in the world, that means you are a
force across the United States, as well as
the world, as other states and even other
(09:29):
nations pick up on some of the things
you've done.
Now, one of the biggest and one of
the earliest things you did was the licence
plate called the Pet Lover's Licence Plate.
It's the Spay and Neuter Saves Lives Licence
Plate.
I have one.
Tell us about this and how it raises
(09:49):
money for spay-neuter and how people can
still get it to this day.
I think everybody who is driving a car
in California should have one of these licence
plates.
How do they get it and why is
it important?
Well, if they did have it, we could
solve our pet overpopulation problem because there's over
(10:10):
30 million registered vehicles in the state of
California.
We wouldn't need every one of them to
solve it, but boy, if we had a
big share of it, we could.
You go to dmv.ca.gov and when
you're registering your vehicle, there's a place where
(10:32):
you can choose a speciality plate.
When it brings down the list, you pick
the Pet Lover's Plate.
$40 from your registration every year goes into
a fund.
Then once a year, that money gets distributed
(10:52):
to providers of spay and neuter, which can
be shelters or vet clinics.
Right now, we're at $2.3 million that
has been raised through the plate.
(11:12):
That's an impressive number and it is so
exciting, but it could be so much more.
Thank you for bringing that up because I'd
love to urge everyone in California, please get
a Pet Lover's Licence Plate.
We need you.
Now, California is in the midst of a
pet overpopulation crisis.
(11:33):
How do I know?
Because I have two pets.
This one, whose name is Wednesday, somebody tried
to drop her at a shelter and the
shelter actually said, we have no room.
Put her back where you found her.
Luckily, somebody heard this who was a rescuer
and grabbed her.
(11:53):
She had no identification, nothing.
This is a crisis.
The shelters are overflowing.
Why is that happening?
How does the Pet Lover's Licence Plate and
all of your efforts fit into that, Judy?
Well, it's overbreeding and oops litters and people
(12:15):
getting animals from out of state, out of
country.
So unaltered animals having many, many litters that
find their way into the shelters and then
there's not enough space.
So the shelters euthanise the animals and that's
(12:40):
what pet overpopulation is.
When we are literally killing animals, putting them
down because we don't have enough space, we
can't hold them, we can't help them to
get adopted.
That is an overpopulation crisis.
And we've been working on legislation over the
(13:03):
years to mitigate it, which has been helpful.
Our microchipping bill, one of the problems when
animals come into shelters, the reason why we
can't get them back home is because they
lack identification.
So we did a microchip bill that requires
every dog, cat leaving a shelter to be
(13:29):
microchipped.
And that way, if they find their way
into a shelter, you scan them or maybe
not even in a shelter.
A lot of times if they're just out
in running the streets and animal control or
Good Samaritan with a reader can scan them,
find out where they live, contact the owner
(13:50):
and get them back home.
And then we did another bill that kicked
puppy mills out of pet shops so that
only rescue or shelter animals could be in
pet shops.
So, I mean, bottom line is it's overbreeding
too many animals and not enough homes.
(14:10):
But it's also a problem with the powers
that be, not recognising that spay and neuter
is the answer.
Obviously you spay one animal and you prevent
dozens, hundreds, even thousands of animals down the
road from being born.
Why is it that more isn't being done?
(14:31):
We've got this pet lover's licence plate.
I mean, is all that money being used
to spay and neuter animals?
There's something really wrong.
And it seems that it's so obvious what
the solution is, spay neuter, and yet animals
are being put down all across the state
(14:52):
of California, Judy.
Well, it is all getting used for the
spay and neuter.
There's a little bit that's taken for administration
fees, meaning overhead.
The California Department of Food and Ag oversee
it.
So there's some money taken out to pay
(15:13):
their staff for the time to gather the
grants, distribute the funds, but overall it is
getting used.
It's just not enough is the problem.
There are literally hundreds of thousands of animals
that are getting put down.
(15:33):
So we need an enormous amount of money
to spay and neuter so that we can
get all the animals spayed and neutered that
their family can't afford it.
And then most recently, we have a shortage
of veterinarians in the state and registered veterinary
(15:54):
technicians.
So there's also a professional shortage that we
are trying to address.
So, I mean, this is a crisis.
I think everybody's acknowledging that it's a crisis.
You're doing incredible work, but you can't do
it alone.
Nick, what are your thoughts about what we
(16:14):
need to do to fix this problem?
I happen to live in Los Angeles.
It's a huge problem in Los Angeles, but
it's apparently up and down the state.
Yeah, absolutely.
You know, one of the hardest things to
do in politics is to get that ounce
of prevention so that you don't need a
(16:35):
pound of cure.
And so that's the problem with getting money
up front to do more spay and neutering
so that we don't have this pet overpopulation
crisis.
Thankfully, I do think that there is movement
politically in that legislators and other folks, mayors,
(16:57):
county supervisors, they are seeing the wall.
And I feel like we are on the
precipice of a breakthrough where maybe we can
get that prevention so that we're not spending
so much on the cure later.
Absolutely.
(17:17):
But let's talk about some brighter subjects when
it comes to animals, specifically dogs.
You passed the Dining With Dogs bill, which
you go into depth here in your book
because they need us.
And I'm happy to say I was a
part of this whole effort.
And it really has revolutionised our relationship with
(17:39):
dogs because we can take them places.
Before you passed the Dining With Dogs bill,
we couldn't go to outdoor patios, and it
really penalised and persecuted dog owners.
So Judy, tell us about the passage of
the Dining With Dogs Act, which passed here
in California and then it passed in New
(18:00):
York too.
Well, absolutely.
I mean, at first, when I first got
my dogs, I thought that it was fine
to bring your dogs to an outdoor patio
because I would see them there.
And I went to a restaurant, they said,
(18:23):
no, you can't have your dogs here.
And I said, well, but we just did
it at another one of your restaurants like
two weeks ago.
And they said, no, it's a law.
And I said, well, that's a law that
needs to be changed.
So I went home and dug through the
code on the California legislation website and found
(18:45):
that sure enough, dogs were prohibited from being
in a restaurant, whether it was inside or
outside, unless they were a service dog.
So we moved a piece of legislation in
California that said, if a restaurant had an
outdoor patio area, and if they elected to
(19:09):
allow animals, dogs to come, they would need
to be on leash.
They need to stay on the ground.
There was a whole list of things that
the California Department of Public Health required.
So we ran the legislation, we had the
restaurant association with us, and it was a
(19:33):
no-brainer, and really was, and got to
the finish line and signed into law.
So we made it so that now, if
a restaurant has this opportunity that they have
the outdoor area, that they allow it.
And these two have gone to so many
restaurants, I can't tell you, they are about
(19:55):
town, but that was a really, really popular
bill.
And it was something that everybody could get
behind.
And it's too bad that some of the
more controversial ones aren't quite as popular, but
you do have bipartisan support for a lot
of your bills.
Isn't it true, Nick, that sometimes the only
(20:16):
thing Republicans and Democrats can agree on is
that they love their dogs?
Absolutely.
We work with Democrats and Republicans all the
time, particularly on companion animal issues, Republicans will
line up to support.
We worked on a bill to get rid
(20:38):
of dogs that were kept to give their
blood in cages their entire life.
We worked with a Republican legislator to end
that practise or to phase it out in
California.
We are working with, last year we worked
with a Republican legislator to help raise breeder
(20:59):
standards and get shelter animals online.
So these kinds of issues, they have to
be bipartisan.
In California, Democrats do have a super majority,
but that does not mean that we disregard
Republicans.
We work across the aisle all the time.
So let me ask you guys, I want
(21:21):
to get back to the Cruelty-Free Cosmetics
Act, because to me, you've passed so many
bills, almost 30, and these are historic, ground
-changing, groundbreaking bills.
But in my eyes, the Cruelty-Free Cosmetics
Act was just a monumental achievement because there
(21:42):
were so many powerful forces against what you
were doing.
So many industries were up against you.
However, according to this book, you got two
very successful corporations to get behind you.
One was John Paul Mitchell, which is the
(22:03):
beauty products, completely cruelty-free, and the other
is Lush.
Why was getting those two companies so instrumental
in defeating the opposition, which were also companies
who didn't want to change, Judy?
Because they had already implemented a cruelty-free
(22:26):
business model.
John Paul DeJoy started his company with a
friend, I think it was 1975 or so,
John Paul Mitchell products.
And so he lived it, and for decades,
(22:46):
being a very successful company, dealing with the
supply chain, making sure everything was cruelty-free,
and the same with Lush, who had 300
stores in North America, I believe the number
was at the time.
So when we first introduced the bill and
(23:08):
we met with the opposition, the first thing
they said was, okay, well, you're going to
make everybody go out of business, and they're
going to move all their operations offshore, and
all these American jobs are going to be
lost, and there's no way to be able
to prove in the supply chain that everything
(23:30):
is cruelty-free.
And if we didn't have these enormous companies,
successful companies on our side to be able
to push back and say, it just isn't
true, and here's why, and we've been doing
it, we wouldn't have been able to get
it done.
It was mission critical to have them.
(23:53):
And here again is you at the state
capitol in Sacramento with a bunch of people
fighting for this bill, and obviously the giant
wrap provided by PETA, which is one of
the organisations you work with very closely, along
with Physicians Committee for Responsible Medicine, you as
a team of organisations pushing this, you also
(24:18):
had a lot of celebrities, and we've already
established that you do work with a lot
of celebrities, but what was the role that
celebrities played, Judy, in pushing this over the
finish line and other bills over the finish
line?
How do you utilise the celebrities?
Well, you know, the products manufacturers, they sign
(24:44):
on celebrities for millions and millions of dollars
to sell their products, and it's just that
they have a bigger audience.
People listen to them, they respect them, and
so if someone is saying, Bob Barker, Spay
and Uter saves lives at the end of
(25:06):
all of his shows throughout his lifetime, you
know, that really helps because, I mean, there's
a very small amount of people that know
who I am, but boy, do they know
who Bob Barker is, or Pierce Brosnan, or
Jean-Paul DuJour walking Phoenix, so it just
(25:29):
makes an enormous difference to have their voice
and their audiences pay attention to these really
important issues that otherwise they may not hear
about.
Well, I was there when you had celebrities
like Alicia Silverstone show up in Sacramento and
(25:50):
then walk around and meet the legislators, and
they go gaga.
They are just like anybody else.
When they see a celebrity, they get all
excited, and it really lets you get your
foot in the door and get into those
offices because they're not going to turn Alicia
Silverstone down and say, no, you can't come
in.
That's exactly right.
(26:11):
They do.
They enjoy it.
They like meeting them.
They want to hear what they have to
say.
You know, in Hollywood, everybody sees celebrities at
restaurants walking down the street, but it's not
exactly the same in Sacramento.
So, you know, when the celebrities come, yes,
(26:31):
they get attention, and definitely it's fun for
everyone.
Let's talk about the time that you heard
that, I believe it was the California Department
of Fish and Wildlife, had decided to basically
put out a hit on a mountain lion,
and these mountain lions, many environmental organisations are
(26:53):
desperate to save them, and yet here we
have our government going out and basically saying
we're going to kill them.
So what happened there?
Because that was something where social compassion and
legislation like moved into action very rapidly.
Yeah, this goes back to what I was
saying at the beginning of the show where,
you know, yes, the group was founded to
(27:16):
run legislation and do things that are positive
impacts for animals, saving and protecting them.
But sometimes we hear about things that we
have to go to battle and fight.
And what was on the news in the
evening on the radio was that there was
(27:36):
a mountain lion that was beloved, P-42,
or P-45, I think.
Yeah, P-45 was this one.
And he had eaten or attacked some alpacas,
which is terrible.
I mean, we all love alpacas too, but
(27:58):
the bottom line was the people had brought
these animals from outside the country, had them
in mountain lion territory, and they weren't protected.
So, you know, to kill a mountain lion
that we're trying to save from going extinct
(28:20):
because it's doing what a mountain lion would
do was absurd.
And so, yeah, we jumped into gear and
we raised a lot of noise and ruckus
over it and were able to stop it
and ended up helping the rancher to build
(28:40):
an enclosure for the alpacas.
And you had a news conference.
And for those who are watching, we're looking
at a snapshot from the news conference.
Well, we kind of took over.
We had heard that there was going to
be a meeting in Agora Hills about this
(29:02):
issue and safety that Fish and Game was
having.
And we decided to try to get there
and have a press conference prior to their
meeting to put pressure on them to not
kill P-45.
So it was, some were calling it a
(29:24):
guerrilla press conference because we had sent out
the press release and somehow Fish and Game
didn't get the memo.
And what had happened is, gosh, I mean,
there was probably a half dozen to a
dozen news trucks there.
Before I got there, I left Laguna Beach
(29:46):
trying to get to Agora Hills.
It was like a Friday and it took
me over three hours to get there.
And when I pulled in, the outside was
just lined with news trucks with their satellite
dishes up and everybody was like, get on
the stage, get on the stage, hurry.
And I ran to the stage and began
(30:08):
our little press conference, which turned out to
be very big and was on every channel
and was on a major morning show.
But it all worked and we were able
to save his life.
And it's all described in this book.
Now, if people donate to Social Compassion and
(30:29):
Legislation, $30 or more, they can get the
book sent to them for free.
And I have to tell you, these anecdotes
that we're discussing, they really play out in
very dramatic fashion.
Like I said, this book, it's not, yes,
it's about laws and legislation, but it really
reads like a thriller because you have so
many dramatic moments where people are trying to
(30:52):
shut you down.
People are offering you a million dollars.
People are threatening you.
There were some phrases that I learned that
I didn't know existed.
So I'd like you to define them.
And they come up in the book.
What does it mean astro-turfing, Nick Sackett?
What is astro-turfing?
Oh, geez.
(31:13):
Astro-turfing.
Judy, this is a term that you've used
before.
So I'm going to toss that back over
to Judy.
Well, that was in reference to hiring people
to look like they are support or opposition
to a bill.
(31:35):
So what had happened, this was on the
FER bill, that when there's people opposing a
bill, but they don't actually have people who
are opposed to the bill.
It's just the industry.
They will go and hire people to come
and act like they are opposition to the
(31:58):
bill.
And that's what that was referring to in
that chapter.
Yeah.
And in this book, you describe how in
this legislative hearing, all these people come up
against your bill and you tell one of
the legislators, those people are hired and she
doesn't believe you.
And you have to go and do some
(32:19):
investigative work to prove it.
Tell us about that.
Well, yeah, no, I could tell they were
hired right away.
I mean, after being at the Capitol for
17 years, you learn a lot and it
is by experience.
It's not something that you get taught in
(32:40):
a university.
So when these folks came to the microphone
one after another, I said, they're hired.
And Julie, who was with me at the
time said, how do you know that?
And I said, well, I just feel that
they are, I said, but I'm sure we
(33:01):
could probably find some proof.
And so Julie went and start investigating.
She did the digging and sure enough found
Facebook pages and others that were recruiting people
to be a part of this opposition.
(33:21):
And then when you went to the website
that they were promoting, they were actually paying,
they were recruiting students and paying them a
hundred dollars each to come and testify against
this bill.
So that's AstroTurfing.
I've seen that quite a few times when
I've gone to animal organisations, having a gala,
(33:44):
particularly PETA and you see these people with
signs, PETA kills or whatever.
And I asked them a question, well, tell
me what's your argument?
No clue because they're being paid.
You can tell that they're being paid.
So beware when you see people who are
going up against an organisation like PETA, which
you work with very closely and they're making
(34:07):
all sorts of accusations and you try to
get details.
They have no clue because they're actually being
paid by the hour.
I even saw one go on break because
they had to go on a lunch break,
which is not what activists do.
They don't say, okay, I'm going to drop
my sign and go on my lunch break
and come back.
So some of the other phrases that I
(34:28):
learned reading your book, you got to read
this, people.
It really is so interesting.
And I learned so much NASCAR letters.
What are NASCAR letters?
I'll let Nick take this one because he's
always having to do them.
A NASCAR letter, for those who don't know
NASCAR, a lot of the drivers that drive
(34:52):
these cars, it's race car driving.
On their uniform, they will have patches of
all of their sponsors.
And so they just have McDonald's and mobile
and they're covered.
And so sometimes when we need to turn
in a support letter or an opposition letter
against a bill or for a bill, and
(35:14):
we want to get a lot of organisations
to sign on to that letter, we have
to get their logos and their signatures and
we slap them onto a letter.
And the first page, sometimes into the second
page will just be their logos.
So we call that a NASCAR letter.
And it's just a big group of organisations
that are opposing or supporting a bill.
(35:36):
While I have you, what's relational lobbying?
Relational lobbying is really what it sounds like.
You have a relationship with a legislator and
so you're going to have access to that
legislator based on your history, based on how
(35:57):
they know you, not necessarily based on the
policy that's being discussed at hand.
So having those relationships is key because if
they don't know who you are and you
really need to talk to them about a
particular bill, you're relying on that relationship.
And what about lobbying up?
That's another phrase that comes up.
(36:17):
Lobbying up is hiring as many lobbyists as
you possibly can.
And I think what that's referring to in
the book is during the cosmetic fight, the
opposition hired tonnes of lobbyists.
We were in a meeting, an initial meeting
about the bill, and the opposition walked in
(36:39):
with 10, 12 lobbyists.
And there we were with just me, Judy,
and our contract lobbyists and a couple of
scientists, but no other lobbyists.
And so lobbying up is getting that lobby
firepower so that as soon as the opposition
(36:59):
sends their lobbyists in, well, we can send
our lobbyists in and counter their arguments.
And you have had a lot of success,
Judy, because some very, very important people who
are people of means have seen what you're
doing.
They love animals and they've donated.
Let's talk a little bit about Dr. Gary
(37:20):
Michelson who has had such a profound impact
on your efforts.
Well, that's right.
When I first started back in 2007, I
was doing it on my own dollar, but
found out very quickly, which I discuss in
(37:43):
depth in the book, of how I needed
to get organised.
And organised means having representation, having lobbyists, having
a big grassroots support network.
And even like Nick was saying, getting to
(38:03):
know legislators that you're not just a one
-hit wonder, that you're going to be there
year after year after year.
And so Dr. Michelson was one of the
first people I met along with another man
named Stephen Bernheim.
And we did a meeting in Los Angeles
(38:26):
and everyone invited everyone to come hear what
I was doing.
I was going to form my nonprofit and
that we needed to raise funds to start
hiring lobbyists and become a real group.
And so that's where it all started.
And they have been supporting my group since
(38:47):
then, along with a lot of others that
whether it's a $5 donation every month, $1
,000 here, 5,000, 10,000.
I mean, it's taken a lot to be
able to afford running these bills.
(39:08):
And that's why it wasn't getting done before.
And I also talk about my frustration with
the big groups who sit on outside of
PETA and PCRM, Centre for Biological Diversity, these
groups we work with.
But there's many groups that make lots, hundreds
(39:31):
of millions of dollars that they're just literally
have in the bank and that they spend
more money on operations and fundraising than anything
else.
So my little group, we are doing really
big things and relying on folks like Dr.
(39:52):
Michelson, Stephen, and all the small donors, everybody
to keep us going.
Now, let's talk a little bit about why
you are perfectly positioned to influence not just
California and the world.
As we've mentioned, California is the fifth largest
economy in the world, but it's also a
trend leader.
(40:13):
And you know what they say, what happens
in Hollywood spreads to the rest of the
nation and the world.
The Dining with Dogs Act was a perfect
example.
You go into it in the book, how
it passed here in California.
And then I happened to be in New
York at the time and I was like,
dang, I had three Chihuahua mixes and I
wanted to go to restaurants.
(40:34):
And you brought your act to New York
and we got it passed.
Tell us about how you're able to do
that.
It was not a small task, and I
have you to thank to be a huge
part of that.
So I had my lobbyist in California gave
(40:55):
me some recommendations of some firms in New
York.
So I flew to New York, I interviewed
the lobbyist, we went and spoke with a
legislator, assembly member Linda Rosenthal from Manhattan, who
happens to be a huge animal lover and
(41:18):
would be strong enough to carry this legislation.
Because there's a lot of legislators, they don't
want to stick their neck out for animals.
They just don't.
But she had a reputation that she absolutely
would.
And so met with the assembly member, met
(41:40):
with lobbyist, raised money, hired them.
And then actually without your help, Jane, we
wouldn't have gotten it done with the grassroots
support in New York.
And Nick also at the time was not
working with us in California.
(42:02):
He was in New York and just donating
his time pro bono to us at that
point.
And he was able to go to some
of those hearings and meetings too.
So we got it done.
And that was our first out of state
effort.
Let's talk a little bit about the most
important issue that affects the most animals, and
that's our food system.
(42:24):
And it's very sad because the number of
animals killed for food is not going down,
unfortunately.
I mean, literally, globally, it's 90 billion animals
every year.
I can't even say it because it's so
mind boggling.
And you can see the majority are chickens.
And then, of course, the environmental impact.
(42:47):
Here's a New York Times article.
It says vegans are responsible for 75%
less in greenhouse gases than meat eaters.
Obviously, if people transition to a plant-based
lifestyle, they're going to have a much lower
carbon footprint.
Now, you've been able to do some things
here in California to encourage a plant-based
lifestyle in hospitals, prisons, and schools.
(43:10):
Tell us about that.
Well, I will tell you personally, I went
vegan over 30 years ago now.
And I know that we can't do enough
to promote it and to help people maintain
the diet they choose and to help get
(43:34):
supported in school.
So the first bill that we did mandated
plant-based meal options in hospitals and other
kind of medical facilities and prisons.
We originally had schools in it, but that
(43:55):
got taken out because we knew that that
was going to be too big of a
fight and that there would need to be
some funding to go along with that.
So then we addressed schools later in a
funding bill to give money towards plant-based
food and milk in schools.
(44:17):
So we did get that done.
It was a huge accomplishment, but obviously there's
always more to do.
And yeah.
Okay.
I think I need a clarification because what
happened exactly with the schools?
Because we understand that to this day, there
are students who have to get a doctor's
(44:39):
note and there's been even lawsuits.
So just elaborate on that a little bit.
Yeah.
Well, and I can pass it to Nick
because he worked intimately on it as well.
So go ahead, take it Nick.
Sure.
At first, we tried to pass a bill
to set up a permanent grant programme.
(45:01):
But just to give you a quick reason,
the Cattlemen's Association and the other animal ag
industries came in and said they didn't want
vegan propaganda in our schools, which made us
all kind of snicker because they've been in
our schools promoting got milk for decades.
(45:22):
In any case, two years ago, we were
able to get a hundred million dollars in
the California budget to help schools upgrade their
kitchens to serve plant-based meals, including, and
milks.
So, you know, that has, and we partnered
with Friends of the Earth on that effort,
(45:43):
who gets into schools and really helps them
develop their plant-based programmes.
And all of that money, hundred million dollars
worth money went to those kinds of upgrades
and training staff so that they can cook
plant-based meals.
Because if you have kitchen staff that, you
know, doesn't know what to do, and they
just usually are used to taking a hamburger
(46:05):
and slapping it together, well, then that's what
they're going to serve the kids.
But once they have that knowledge and that
training, then they can broaden the plant-based
meals.
And that's exactly what the funding was for.
Have you had a chance to see how
it's going?
Has there been any audit or examination of
how schools are implementing?
(46:25):
Because implementation is one of the key aspects
of legislation.
I mean, I will talk to Prop 2
and Prop 12 passed by the voters of
California saying they want certain standards for animals
that are being bred for food in the
state.
And to my knowledge, there's never been a
prosecution based on either of those propositions, even
(46:51):
though there've been many examples of undercover investigations
that show that terrible things are happening and
prosecutors, district attorneys in various counties being pleaded
with, please enforce this law that the California
voters passed.
And they just refuse to do it because
they're beholden somehow to industry.
(47:14):
Yeah, absolutely.
It's a big problem.
Enforcement of animal cruelty laws is a big
problem across California and across the nation.
You know, I'll give you an example.
Puppy mills, they are supposed to be regulated
by the USDA.
And most puppy millers are breaking all the
(47:36):
Animal Welfare Act provisions, but they only get
a slap on the wrist if that.
So what you're saying is a huge problem.
We need more whistleblowers.
We need people from within these corporations to
speak out because local DAs and city attorneys,
(47:59):
they just don't want to take the word
of activists who are bringing them evidence.
Well, let me just say this.
It's not the word.
There's many organisations that have gone videotaping what's
happening in factory farms in California and showing
the horrors and presented with concrete evidence on
(48:21):
videotape of what's happening.
And the district attorneys refuse to prosecute.
It's not taking anybody's word.
Right, right.
No, it's special interest having a death grip
on our local jurisdictions, on legislators.
I mean, that's another thing that the book
(48:42):
is about, is just how hard, even though
you've got the proof, to move people because
of the special interest grip.
And that's a huge piece of it.
We have done auditing at the state level.
We just got some audit results about forest
(49:06):
risk commodities being purchased by the state of
California that had to do with our efforts
with the Deforestation Free Procurement Act.
We did an audit on the pet lovers
licence plate to make sure that every dollar
was going to where it needed to go
and was being spent properly.
(49:26):
So we have done audits at the state,
which has been mission critical, and they do
an incredible job.
But what you're talking about, about auditing prisons
and schools, about plant-based meals and hospitals,
it takes a lot of labour to call
(49:49):
and spot check.
And this is something that my group has
been discussing and looking into how we can
start doing that and doing some audits ourselves
that are more informal, but reaching out to
these facilities and asking for the menus.
(50:10):
So that's something that we are looking at,
Jane, and something we're very interested in and
wanting to work with PETA and PCRM and
the other groups that helped us over the
years to get these things passed and now
going back and making sure that they're getting
enforced.
And it's a process, not an event.
(50:31):
The first step is to pass the law,
which you have done.
You can't be asked to do everything under
the sun, although I know you try.
But when it comes to hospitals, I've personally
had a number of people say that they
cited that law and said, you have to
give me, and what they were given was
not substantial.
(50:51):
In other words, there's resistance.
And the people in these hospitals feel like,
I either don't want to do it or
they challenged the law.
Just the other day, I was at a
place and they said, your dog is not
allowed outside.
And I said, yes, it is.
This is a restaurant and there's something called
(51:12):
the Dining with Dogs Act.
And he asked me for the bill and
I called Nick.
And I said, Nick, will you send me
that legislation?
Now, the funny part is by the time
I went back to the restaurant, that person
had been let go.
Not the friendliest person on the planet, let's
put it that way.
But I had to actually, I was planning
on showing this person the law and saying,
(51:34):
yes, we're allowed as long as the owner
of the restaurant, and you're not the owner,
as long as the owner allows, and they
did, we're entitled to have our dogs on
this patio.
So it's really passing the law is the
first thing, but then it's enforcement.
And I'd really like to see more enforcement
with the hospitals, because obviously people are going
(51:55):
in there because they're suffering from whatever.
Cancer, heart disease, a lot of this has
been linked to dairy.
Processed meat is officially cancer causing, according to
the World Health Organisation.
So the idea that they're flouting this law
that you struggled so hard to pass is
outrageous, Judy.
Yes.
(52:15):
And we have helped people in hospitals before
that were like, hey, they're not giving me
a plant-based meal, and we sent them
the legislation as well.
And just in talking about this, I think
that we probably need to have a special
tab on our website that says, need help
(52:38):
with enforcement, and maybe giving recommendations on A,
just linking to the laws so people can
have it quickly to show people, or knowing
who to call within the local jurisdiction or
whether it's at the state to report that
(52:58):
they're not following the law.
So that is something we should look into,
and I'm glad it came up.
Well, a lot of things come up in
these conversations.
We often get to that point where we're
brainstorming on our podcasts.
We've got to wrap.
So please give us your final thoughts.
(53:20):
What's next?
Well, we've been trying to eliminate teachers using
live animal dissection in schools.
And it is not mandatory.
There's nothing in law that says that they
shall do it.
(53:40):
They elect to do it.
So we've had a couple of attempts at
trying to get rid of it, and we're
going to go back at it this year.
So that's one thing that we're working on.
The other action that we're looking into is
to bring out of state veterinarians in state
(54:03):
to be able to do high volume spay
and neuter.
So to get them a licence, to be
licenced in California as quickly as possible so
that they could do this, whether it's a
permanent full licence or a temporary licence.
We're looking into the logistics of all that
(54:25):
right now.
So we're working on that and the never
ending pet overpopulation crisis, unfortunately.
Well, I just want to say the two
of you are my heroes.
The amount of work that you have done
is mind boggling.
This book is a must read.
Oh, thank you.
(54:46):
Because if you donate to socialcompassionandlegislation.org, you
can get it sent to you.
Just donate $30 or more.
Your work is extraordinary.
And of course, I also would love everybody
to download Unchained TV.
We are the world's only streaming television network,
nonprofit, free for animals and the plant based
(55:09):
lifestyle.
So it's a vegan Netflix.
Okay, that's the craziest thing I've ever heard.
I love Unchained TV.
Unchained.
Unchained TV.
Your life will change.
It's just that easy.
Unchained TV has all sorts of content for
everybody.
Unchained TV changed my life.
Unchained TV is crushing it.
I love Unchained TV.
(55:30):
Unchained TV is my go to.
Unchained TV.
Who knew?
Unchained TV.
Yes.
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