February 5, 2025 • 57 mins
BREAKING NEWS: Animal Outlook charges that laws against animal cruelty are not being enforced when it comes to live animal markets in the San Francisco area. Animal Outlook has conducted undercover investigations - complete with shocking video footage - and says it has documented “widespread abuse” it believes “violates California law.” The group says even though it’s presented evidence and detailed solutions to help law enforcement do its job, it can’t get them to take action and enforce the law. The alleged abuse involves turtles and frogs being cut open while still alive, which Animal Outlook says violates California law, which requires be animals be rendered unconscious or insensible to pain before death. We invite the agencies involved on any time to respond. Now, Animal Outlook’s Executive Director, Ben Williamson, brings us the very latest in this interview with UnchainedTV’s Jane Velez-Mitchell.
More about our host:
Jane Velez-Mitchell is an award-winning journalist, TV producer and NY Times bestselling author who founded and runs UnchainedTV, the world's premier streaming TV network to promote the plant-based, compassionate, sustainable lifestyle. UnchainedTV offers 2,000 free documentaries, vegan cooking, lifestyle and news shows as part of its nonprofit media network. You can download UnchainedTV for free on any cell phone. You can watch UnchainedTV for free on any TV via streaming devices like Amazon Fire Stick, Roku device and Apple TV device. And, it's on all Samsung TVs. Here's the online portal: https://watch.unchainedtv.com/browse
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
We have a breaking news for you.
It is making headlines all over the place.
As you can see, San Francisco, Chinatown, wet
markets under scrutiny for alleged animal cruelty.
Turtles' legs seen moving in response to being
cut apart.
This is a breaking news.
(00:20):
Live market horrors have been caught on tape.
Animal Outlook is charging that laws against animal
cruelty are simply not being enforced when it
comes to live animal markets in the San
Francisco area.
I gotta warn you, some of the things
we're showing you are just horrifying.
And they've provided this shocking video documenting widespread
(00:40):
abuse that they believe violates California law.
The group says, even though it's presented this
evidence and solutions, law enforcement just can't seem
to get around to taking action and enforce
the law.
The abuse involves turtles and frogs being cut
open while still alive.
That violates California law, which requires animals be
(01:01):
rendered unconscious or insensible to pain before death.
Now we invite the agencies involved on anytime
to respond.
Very happy to have today, Ben Williamson, the
executive director of Animal Outlook.
They have been leading the way on this
story with their undercover investigations.
(01:23):
So Ben, just bring us the very latest.
What is happening at these live markets?
Well, thanks so much for having me on
the show, Jane.
What you summed it up, we've done two
investigations now of these live markets in San
Francisco, one in 2022 and one in October,
(01:44):
2024.
And we went to dozens of these live
markets across the Bay Area.
And we find the same thing, routine daily
killing of animals in egregious ways, being bludgeoned
over the head, being cut open while they're
seemingly still alive, being suffocated, being placed into
plastic bags, animals trying to escape, animals tipping
(02:06):
out onto the street.
And it's really horrible stuff.
I mean, the cruelty is right there in
plain sight.
And we've, over the years, since our very
first investigation, we've submitted our complaints to the
SFACC, Animal Care and Control, who are charged
with enforcing the law when it comes to
animal cruelty.
And they just haven't done enough.
(02:27):
On our first investigation, they issued one citation
for animal cruelty, and that was for a
turtle who was being cut open alive.
So they acknowledged that there's a problem here.
They just, they say that they're kind of
powerless to do anything, which we disagree with.
Our lawyers have looked at the case law.
They've looked at all of the law in
regards to this.
And they say, no, not only does ACC
(02:49):
have the right to enforce the animal cruelty
law, which in California is pretty good, they
have an obligation to do so, because it's
certainly not up to the police.
The ACC is responsible to enforce animal cruelty
law in California, and they just haven't done
enough of it.
So again, this is disturbing footage.
(03:10):
And, you know, you've got to look at
this all the time.
Just uploading the video was so disturbing to
me.
And what occurs to me is that frogs,
turtles, and fish are just not considered a
top priority by society, which is so unfair.
(03:32):
I want to dive deep into some of
the responses.
Now, I have to tell you, we did
call San Francisco Animal Care and Control and
sought a response.
I did not get a call back.
However, San Francisco Animal Care and Control did
speak, at least issued a statement to CBS
News, which covered this, quote, while the allegations
(03:53):
are shocking, San Francisco Animal Care and Control
can only act on what we see.
We cannot cite based on videos.
Our animal control officers respond to constituent complaints
and concerns as quickly as we can with
the resources we have available.
So what is your response to their response
that they can't go on a video that
(04:15):
you've shown them, which we've all just watched,
which shows a giant mallet and a thrashing
animal, that they've got to see it themselves?
Yeah, well, there's two points they're making there,
right?
They're saying that they can't cite based on
video evidence and that they don't have the
resources available to enforce.
And we dispute both.
(04:36):
So for the video evidence case, I mean,
clearly you say that these animals are overlooked
by society.
This would never happen if it was humans,
right?
If we had documented reliable evidence of this
kind of thing happening to humans, you can
guarantee that the doors being kicked down would
be people going to jail for this.
So on case law, and we looked at
(04:56):
the traffic laws, the footage-involved traffic laws,
the case law is quite clear that you
can issue citations for footage-involved traffic law
violations.
You can do that for this as well.
Neither the US Constitution, the California Constitution, or
California Penal Code prevents the ACC from issuing
(05:17):
citations based on third-party video evidence.
That seems to be a rule that ACC
has just created for itself and it seems
to be quite convenient that they don't have
to do it because they say they don't.
In fact, California Penal Code is quite clear.
They have an exemption for arrests.
Arrests you have to witness firsthand.
The police and ACC, who also have the
(05:39):
ability to issue warrants and arrest people.
But citations, which are considered small fines at
best, which can be contested in court, the
people committing these apparent crimes can have their
day in court if they contest the citation.
They can be issued free and especially based
on third-party evidence, which is a way
(06:01):
of getting around the fact that they say
they have no resources.
That's the other thing we dispute.
They have 14 animal control officers.
They go to 10,000 calls every year,
most of them being cats and dogs because,
Jane, as you alluded to, society generally takes
cats and dog preferences over wild animals, over
aquatic animals.
(06:23):
So you could, we think, if you're not
gonna accept our evidence, which we think is
irrefutable, and they have also called shocking and
they have also issued citations based on our
evidence, or at least inspected based on our
evidence in the past, then you can at
least send your officers on a daily or
a weekly or a monthly basis because, as
I say, they know this stuff is happening.
We know it's happening.
(06:43):
Everyone in San Francisco knows this is happening,
but you can go see it for yourself,
issue citations, and maybe it will stop.
Well, this is not just happening in San
Francisco.
In New York City, there is a similar
battle against live markets, and this is just
so, so disturbing.
(07:06):
First of all, a couple of things.
It doesn't sound like you needed to go
in there and take a job as a
butcher to see this.
This is a retail market where people go
to get food, their idea of food, live
animals, and watch them be killed in front
(07:27):
of them and then take those animals home,
the carcasses, and eat them.
So it would appear to me, correct me
if I'm wrong, that you went in as
a shopper and documented this with a hidden
camera.
You didn't have to, your team didn't have
to take a job there and lurk around.
It seems like it's pretty much happening in
(07:47):
the open.
As one of the articles said, hidden in
plain sight is this cruelty.
So why can't they go and document exactly
what you documented with a simple trip there
in plain clothes?
Yeah, yeah, we feel that they could, and
we feel that it's just, you know, we
(08:08):
know these people to be well-meaning.
They are animal people, but for the reasons
that they've put up, and they're not giving
us that many reasons, as you said, they're
not in communication with us, but speaking through
the press, through all those articles that you've
cited, they do allude to the fact that
they say they can't accept third-party evidence
and they don't have the resources to send
people.
And that's just something I don't think is
(08:28):
valid.
14 animal control officers, 10,000 calls every
year.
Why can't you make time for these turtles
and these frogs?
And let's take a look at some of
their other, I'm gonna just say, excuses, all
right?
Now, you got written up at the San
Francisco Standard.
The deputy director of animal care and control
said, they told the Standard, the agency is
(08:49):
constrained because it's not staffed by sworn officers,
which means its team members have to witness
an offence in order to cite it.
Now, we just went over that.
They could go over just like you did.
And with a video camera or their phone,
any number of ways they could see what
you've seen with so many people who visit
these live animal markets, which are retail slaughterhouses,
(09:13):
see.
Then they said, the agency has not seen
anyone successfully prosecute live animal cruelty under current
laws.
Courts are backed up with serious felonies with
violent crimes.
So these are not always seen as a
priority.
To me, that gets to the heart of
this.
They don't see it as a priority.
They assume because it's a turtle or a
(09:35):
frog that, eh, but that's not the law.
The law is that in California, an animal
has to be rendered insensible or unconscious before
he or she is slaughtered.
Take it away.
Yeah, yeah, you're absolutely right.
I mean, that word, serious crimes, just alludes
(09:56):
to the fact that they're not taking it
as seriously as they should.
And because we're talking about other species, it's
a deprioritized target.
So we, as we say, we fully want
them, we're pushing them to actually do more
on this subject.
They have the power to do more.
(10:16):
They are enforced to do more.
They, the health code actually gives them the
power to issue citations, to issue fines.
It's there in plain writing in the California
health code.
While they may not be, they may not
feel that they have the power to arrest
people and enforce warrants, they can issue fines.
In fact, they're mandated to issue fines.
(10:37):
So that's what we're asking them to do.
If you issue enough citations on it, then
practises will change.
It will be financially impossible for these places
to keep doing what they're doing.
And that's how you can bring about change.
But they're also, they could work with police
if they wanted to, to enforce the law
and to bring about criminal prosecutions on this.
(10:57):
And so far we haven't seen any action
on either one.
So we just think that they're really falling
down here.
We think that we can, as a society,
as people who care about animals, as San
Francisco residents, and you're right, these things happen
all over the country as well.
And we urge anyone who's outraged about this
to contact their local officials and demand action
(11:20):
for the cruelty that's happening on a daily
basis in these live markets.
But we can push them to do more
on this.
And we just need some public support and
we need people to really take this responsibility
seriously.
So you had mentioned that this is a
coast to coast battle.
It's happening in New York.
(11:40):
There are many protests.
You're looking at an image of one of
them.
And we have a short clip to show
you of one of the shows about this
on Unshamed TV, which really documents the horror
of live markets.
This is from New York City.
(12:01):
Do you see any water troughs anywhere for
them?
I don't see any water troughs.
Get the fuck out.
Get the fuck out.
Don't touch her.
Do not touch her.
Get the fuck out.
Get the fuck out.
You may be surprised to learn wet markets
where live animals are sold on the spot
are also in the United States.
There are over 80 wet markets still operating
in the New York City area alone.
(12:21):
In Brooklyn, Astoria, Flushing, the Bronx, and Harlem.
Careful with the faeces.
You don't wanna bring that faeces home.
There's heads, guts, just leaving it on the
sidewalk.
Why are these live markets in our neighbourhood?
Right next to a dental office.
We can't be pointing the finger at China
when we have the same or worse conditions
here.
It doesn't matter whether they're wild animals or
(12:43):
domestic animals.
Live animal markets are a breeding ground for
disease.
And indeed, the next pandemic may come from
live bird markets in New York City rather
than wet markets somewhere in South Asia.
Does it have concerned you that you have
a live animal market in your own backyard?
Everybody gets upset, but the health department, nobody
(13:05):
wants to do anything.
If you don't like it, don't come by
there.
Because unfortunately, I personally can't do anything.
There we have it.
Two of the most influential cities in the
world, New York City and San Francisco.
(13:26):
And they're all over the country.
They're all over the world, these live animal
markets.
And what activist Adita Bernkranth said is, we're
pointing the finger at China for like their
Wuhan market, which some still now feel was
the source of the COVID pandemic.
There's always a debate.
Was it the lab in Wuhan?
(13:47):
Was it the wet market?
But we know that those wet markets are
a harbinger of disease.
We know we've got bird flu right now,
which is an escalating threat that is posing
a greater and greater problem.
This New York Times report just from the
other day says a dangerous virus, bird flu
(14:10):
enters a new phase.
A human pandemic is not inevitable, but a
series of developments indicates that the possibility is
no longer remote.
And despite this and despite that live markets
inherently have animals in crowded conditions, which is
a breeding ground for potential disease, still authorities
(14:31):
in New York, authorities in San Francisco, nowhere
are they taking action against these live markets,
Ben.
Yeah, I mean, you're right.
Even before the COVID pandemic, we all knew
that live markets were a source of possible
zoonosis, transfer of pathogens from non-human animals
to humans.
(14:52):
SARS, MERS, bird flu, swine flu, you name
it.
All of these diseases started in non-human
animals and can be passed.
So we haven't specifically looked at the health
implications of this as an animal protection organisation.
Our priority is with protecting these turtles, the
(15:12):
fish, the frogs.
But absolutely, you're right.
These places, I mean, you can smell the
gore, the blood as you walk past them,
as the bacteria that must be living in
all of them.
We don't want to be alarmist about this
thing, but if the history keeps showing that
(15:33):
these diseases are, these novel diseases are being
created in animals, in non-human animals, and
then transferring to humans, surely you've got to
do something about it.
And I think the whole, the Wuhan, whether
it was in a lab or the market,
has just kind of sidetracked us into not
taking the threat, the fact that it could
have possibly happened, and probably, a lot of
(15:56):
people think, probably happened at this wet market.
Surely that's enough to go on to say,
right, we should do something about this.
Enough is enough.
And we're getting other people saying, for example,
Tom, we have wet markets in Chicago too.
Yes, they're all over the country.
And speaking of the bird flu, we have
(16:18):
been very carefully following the developments because so
many of them are happening also here in
California.
I don't know if you've seen this, but
Dr. Crystal Keith, of our honour, went around
at her own risk and started documenting piles
of dead cows by the road in California,
(16:39):
apparent victims of bird flu.
And we know that bird flu has infected
cows and it has infected some people.
And again, the threat is very real.
So for those who might say, oh, we're
being alarmist, look at these images, okay?
And then let's go back to the images
(17:02):
that Ben Williamson's organisation, Animal Outlook, provided vis
-a-vis the conditions in these wet markets.
And again, we're not singling any one wet
market out.
This is how it's done.
It's live animals that are slaughtered on the
(17:22):
spot.
And you see there, frogs being beheaded with
no stunning.
So they're being chopped up alive.
Now, again, there you see, there's a fish
being chopped up alive.
We invite San Francisco Animal Care and Control
on any time to respond to anything said
today.
(17:43):
We would love to dialogue with you about
this issue.
There you see a turtle being struck with
a mallet then butchered.
I mean, now look, one of the things
that Adita Bernkrant, the activist said, don't point
the finger at China.
We're doing the same thing here.
And let's face it, factory farming is just
as cruel in a different way.
(18:05):
So nobody's attacking anybody's culture, but there is
a general reluctance, I think, to look at
any issue where somebody can say, you're attacking
my culture.
And we all have cultures.
I'm Puerto Rican and Irish.
Do not use my culture to justify animal
cruelty in any way, shape or form, all
(18:26):
right?
I don't want it.
It's no excuse for animal abuse.
And I think that the same would apply
to any culture.
There's no excuse for animal abuse.
What are your thoughts on that?
Yeah, yeah, I totally agree.
I mean, Animal Outlook as an organisation, we
spend most of our time doing undercover investigations
(18:47):
of those international massive agribusinesses, the likes of
Tyson and Foster Farms and JBS.
They're the organisations that provide the most amount
of meat and have the most culpability in
animal suffering, certainly in terms of scale.
So, and our message is a vegan one.
(19:07):
It's not singling out a particular slaughtering method.
We want all of this to stop because
we know that even with the best wool
in the world and the most humane slaughtering
techniques, it's still wrong to kill animals, take
the life of an animal who doesn't want
to die.
So our message is always vegan.
(19:27):
Our message is always, if you're upset by
what's happening at wet markets, but you still
eat meat, then you really need to rethink
that, your priorities there.
I will say something, Crystal Heath, who you
mentioned, has done fantastic work exposing the dairy,
the bird flu and dairy.
She's done more work to get veterinarians who
(19:48):
are another group who are quite absent on
this issue, on taking bird flu, on bird
safety and ventilation shutdown.
She's done more on this issue than almost
anybody in the movement.
So hats off to Crystal for all her
undercover analysis here.
But yeah, I mean, this is not an
issue of culture.
It's an issue of animal cruelty.
(20:09):
We take a plain view reading of the
law.
And if animals are suffering according to the
law, then wherever you live, whatever culture you're
part of, we're calling for that to stop.
Because let's face it, most of the time,
animals aren't represented very well in the law
because they don't vote.
This is one instance where the law is
really clear.
California's Penal Code, General Animal Cruelty Law, and
(20:32):
they also have a live market law specifically
to cater to our feathered and skinned friends.
It's one issue where we actually have good
law and the law is not being enforced.
Well, let me say this.
The idea of not enforcing animal cruelty laws
is such a big issue.
And so many organisations have tried to tackle
(20:53):
this with very little success.
As you know, California passed Prop 2 many
years ago that just wanted to give animals
room to turn around and spread their wings.
And then they most recently passed Prop 12,
which essentially bans pig gestation crates, which are
(21:14):
these hideous, like the first time I saw
one, I said, no, it's not possible that
human beings can be this sadistic to keep
animals in crates the size of their bodies,
never able to turn around, even scratch themselves,
they become psychotic.
And I just wonder about the human, it
(21:35):
makes me embarrassed to be a member of
the human race when I see something like
this, just beyond comprehension, horrible.
Well, California passed Prop 12, which says that
products from pigs kept in these crates cannot
be sold in California.
California is the fifth largest economy in the
world.
So that battle went all the way up
(21:56):
to the US Supreme Court and the US
Supreme Court said, Prop 12 is the law.
However, are there any enforcements?
No, there's never been an enforcement to my
knowledge and others who have been examining this
issue of either Prop 2 or Prop 12.
And then when animal organisations go in and
(22:17):
they document abuses of these particular propositions passed
by the California voters, what happens is they're
often prosecuted.
So I wanna play a clip for you
of protests about the prosecution of activists who
have gone in and documented what's happening to
(22:41):
these animals and taken a few symbolically out
as rescues.
And then they themselves, those animal rescuers are
prosecuted.
Sonoma County District Attorney.
Instead of prosecuting rescuers and whistleblowers, prosecute this.
(23:02):
On November 2nd, a jury in Sonoma County,
California convicted Wayne Chung, the co-founder of
Direct Action Everywhere, of three trespass charges associated
with the rescue of sick and dying ducks
and chickens in factory farms.
Now, advocates around the world are asking why
(23:22):
the Sonoma County District Attorney prosecuted a person
who was lawfully helping desperate animals instead of
the factory farmers engaging in criminal animal abuse.
Here's what New Yorkers have to say about
this miscarriage of justice.
Sonoma County District Attorney.
You have evidence of animals with painful injuries
who are starving to death right now because
(23:45):
they have no access to food and water.
Animals are being criminally abused at a duck
farm in Petaluma.
What steps are you taking to investigate and
stop the rampant criminal animal cruelty in your
animal factories?
How can you ignore the horrific abuse of
thousands of animals in your jurisdiction?
(24:05):
Sonoma County District Attorney.
When will you stop looking the other way
and prosecute this?
I'm appalled that you sent an animal rescuer
to jail when all he did was try
to help the victims who your office is
neglecting.
Sonoma County District Attorney.
Prosecute this.
Oh, you get the idea.
(24:26):
I know this is a totally different organisation
from yours and I'm not implying that you
guys are in any way connected.
The commonality is you are trying to get
San Francisco Animal Care and Control to prosecute
laws that say you cannot just chop up
animals alive in a wet market just because
(24:47):
it's a wet market.
They are trying to get a district attorney
in Sonoma County to prosecute what they say
are violations of animal cruelty laws happening in
factory farms.
And not only is there no prosecution, but
the people who go into these facilities, in
(25:08):
your case, you didn't have to go into
any, it's a retail market.
You go in as a shopper.
But in their case, they've got to go
in there to document, then they get prosecuted.
I mean, we're living in an upside down
world.
What are your thoughts on that?
Yeah, absolutely.
It's one of our biggest frustrations as an
organisation.
So Animal Outlook's theory of change is we
do our undercover investigations.
(25:28):
That's probably what people know us best for.
Then our legal team sues on the violations
of criminal statutes that we find as a
result of our investigations.
And then we use all of that as
our evidence base for our vegan outreach programme.
Now, the suing, the recommending charges, in the
case of live markets, recommended dozens of charges
and had one citation, as I mentioned, at
(25:50):
the top of the show issued.
It's just a lottery whether the people are
going, the judges in charge, whether the magistrates
are going to take up, whether the district
attorney is even going to file the charges,
let alone it go to court, whether the
police are going to take the time to
investigate.
It's just a lottery.
(26:10):
Sometimes you end up in the hands of
a sympathetic district attorney and they take it
on.
And we have been successful in the past
of getting guilty pleas and successful prosecutions and
fines and prevention of ever working with animals
again orders.
But a lot of the time, just getting
people to prioritise the animal suffering that we
(26:32):
have documented so clearly and so meticulously, and
we take so much time and effort to
do that, making sure that we're always on
the right side of the law.
We're not doing anything illegal, which would invalidate
all of the evidence.
We do so carefully plan these things, but
just because someone doesn't feel like it, someone
hasn't put it to the top of their
pile, these things can call for that.
(26:53):
And that could be months and months of
work down the drain.
Now, in the case of direct action everywhere
and actually going after the wrong people, fortunately,
we've never been on that side.
And I hope that we're not on the
side of being prosecuted ourselves, because as I
say, we plan these things so meticulously and
we aren't doing open rescues.
(27:15):
Unfortunately, our investigators are in the impossible position
of having to watch the cruelty, having to
document the cruelty without having, otherwise they'd blow
their cover, the ability to intervene and prevent
it from happening.
It's more impactful if we can document it,
watch it and all the suffering that goes
into it, and then extricate ourselves and then
(27:36):
push for criminal prosecutions.
Because as we know, the way our theory
of change works is if you can get
those sympathetic DAs or the police to take
this seriously, and you can get a judge
to rule when you have what's called the
police and other organisations, if you can do
that, you build up a series of case
law where then in the future, judges and
(27:56):
DAs have no alternative, but to say, okay,
because this happened in the past and the
case law is such, we have to now
follow through on this.
Animals won't be, you know, it's like the
non-human rights project.
Animals can't be turned over again and again.
At some point, the penny has to drop
and there has to be a tipping point
(28:17):
where suddenly it becomes imperative for people in
authority to act on the incomprehensible, but also
the irrefutable evidence that we've provided.
Well, you talk about tipping points.
So let's broaden our conversation out a little
bit because let's face it, the animal rights
(28:38):
movement has been under attack lately.
The vegan movement has been under attack.
Personally, the way I see it, when Beyond
Meat's incredibly successful initial public offering hit in
2019, the stock shot up, everybody was talking
about it.
Animal agriculture went, oh my gosh, we better.
(28:58):
And they literally started a PR war against
veggie burgers and it's taken its toll.
That's why I always tell vegans, I don't
care what your form of veganism is, don't
attack veggie burgers.
They're a thousand times healthier than meat burgers.
Processed meat is officially cancer causing and all
(29:19):
processed is not equal.
You take a banana and a mango and
you mush them up, that's processed.
That doesn't mean it's bad for you.
But suffice it to say that I urge
people, do not repeat meat industry talking points.
So there's that.
And unfortunately, if we look at the number
(29:41):
of animals killed, it continues to go up.
Now, when I look at this and it
breaks my heart to look at this, and
this is the result of all sorts of
individuals across the world making a choice to
eat animals, but you can see very clearly
that the number one animal being killed for
food is chicken.
(30:02):
And this to me seems that it's gotta
be an opportunity that if we could somehow,
you've got the bird flu issue, right?
You've got the health issues of cholesterol and
heart disease.
You've got so many issues.
If we could convince people just to forsake
(30:24):
chicken as a first step, perhaps, even though
that seems to be sometimes the first thing
when people give up eating quote unquote red
meat, they start eating chicken.
But to me, there's gotta be an opportunity
there to just tackle this massive chicken consumption
and maybe put a dent in those numbers.
(30:45):
I know it's a little off topic, but
I was wondering what your thoughts are on
that.
Yeah, absolutely, you're right.
Chickens are by far the most abused animal
on the planet.
And that's why a lot of our undercover
investigations are in grower farms, they're in contract
catcher crews.
The suffering is enormous.
(31:05):
Our most recent investigation, Jane, which you had
me on the show for a few months
ago, of Foster Farms, which is California's largest
poultry producer, showed workers violently throwing and kicking
the animals and punching them, and forklifts, trucks
running over, clipping the wings of birds and
then backing up over them as well.
So we know that the cruelty happens.
(31:25):
We know that it's a cause of, at
the moment, certainly bird flu, when you keep
that many animals tightly compacted into one of
those windowless sheds.
So we do go after chicken.
I think what the ability of the conversations
around live markets allows us to do is
also to have those kinds of conversations with
(31:45):
people as a new entry point.
Because you get to people who eat chicken
but are against the suffering of turtles and
frogs by saying, well, what's the difference between
a turtle, a frog, and a chicken?
These abuses happen everywhere.
My personal opinion is if there's money to
be made from animals, corners are going to
be cut and animals are going to suffer.
That happens anywhere.
(32:07):
So we have to take the use of
animals out of the system, the money, monetary
incentives, the financial incentives out of it, and
then animals will cease to suffer.
But for now, chicken is, you know, it
is the number one abused animal.
It is the one that, if we could
end the suffering of chickens, we would have
(32:27):
done a lot to end the suffering of
animals altogether.
I think the meat substitutes that you've talked
about, the technology is just getting better and
better.
You know, we did have that high point
at the IPO of Beyond Meat.
It seems to have plateaued now.
And I think that has a lot to
do with the cost of living crisis, the
fact that inflation is so high and people
just aren't feeling that ability to spend a
(32:50):
bit more.
As the technology improves, as the economy of
scale grows, you know, I just had the
impossible Lion King nuggets that I give to
my kids.
You know, that's a wonderful invention that replaces
those kind of dino nugget things that Tyson
Purdue and all those companies produce.
So that is the way that we do
(33:11):
this by scaling up those fantastic, delicious, that
just come on leaps and bounds in the
last decade.
Certainly, you know, Jane, you and I remember
what it was like to eat all those
analogue, let's call them, initial first round burgers
and franks and those kinds of things.
So that's how we do it.
We keep showing the cruelty.
We keep breaking out of our vegan bubble
(33:32):
as well, because we're the best one in
the world.
We are a relatively small community.
We need to keep taking our footage to
the streets to show people who have never
seen this, who have never thought about animal
suffering in their life, who have never tasted
a veggie burger, let alone an impossible dino
nugget, and show them and get them to
realise just how wonderful this world is.
And if they could make choices in their
(33:53):
daily lives, which don't have any suffering, you
know, why would they choose otherwise?
Yes, you're making so many good points.
And I feel there's no stopping a movement
whose time has come and ours has certainly
come.
This New York Times article, I think, sums
it up.
Save the planet, put down that hamburger.
(34:15):
Researchers examined the diet of 55,500 people
and found that vegans are responsible for 75
% less in greenhouse gases than meat eaters.
And, you know, it's interesting because no other
network picked that up.
I looked that night and for next couple
of nights, you never hear mainstream media talking
(34:37):
about animal agriculture's impact on the climate or
a plant-based solution to the climate crisis.
And why is that?
Look at the advertisers, meat, dairy, fast food,
pharmaceuticals.
Those are the very industries that would suffer
mightily if people got healthy and stopped eating
meat and dairy packed fast food that is
(34:59):
causing so many health crises in this country.
Two thirds of Americans are overweight or obese.
We have heart disease as a leading killer.
We have cancer, processed meat is officially cancer
causing.
According to the World Health Organisation, even the
NIH, National Institutes of Health admits that most
people experience lactose malabsorption.
(35:22):
That means most people are allergic to dairy
and shouldn't be drinking it.
I would just like to get your thoughts.
Why is it that what is so obvious
to us, and, you know, it's very apparent
in the media today that they like to
look at sort of these, ah, you know,
(35:42):
solutions or things that are trending.
And I like to cite the 80-20
rule.
I typed it down here somewhere.
I can't find it.
But anyway, the 80-20 rule is that
20% of inputs create 80% of
outcomes.
And as soon as I saw that and
read an article about it, I was like,
(36:03):
ta-dum, that is animal agriculture.
It's the 20% creating the 80%
of negative outcomes for the climate, animal abuse,
human health, ah, disasters, ah, pollution, you know,
ocean desertification, ah, all sorts of problems that
(36:24):
are the result of this one industry.
Why do you think the intelligentsia, and it's
a bipartisan problem.
Both administrations have been, well, historically, Republicans and
Democrats have been horrible on this issue.
Let's say in the past, historically.
I don't want to get into politics.
(36:44):
But why do you think that the best
and the brightest, the smartest in the room
can't see what is so obvious to us?
Yeah, I mean, it's a really interesting question.
And it's one that kind of confounds behaviour
scientists to this day.
We've done a lot of research.
We worked with the Yale School for Environment
(37:06):
and Public Health.
We've worked with the School of Communications down
at the University of Florida.
Because this aspect of how you change human
behaviour is so important.
And there are, when you're talking about something
that you've put into your body three times
a day, it's a very loaded question.
People, there's such cultural identity that people associate
with food.
I mean, we started talking about the fly
(37:26):
market issue.
You know, the cultural identity issue, the familial
ties, the social aspects.
You know, there's a lot that goes into
people's food choices.
I mean, that's why it's fairly easy to
get people, the general public riled up about
the torture of cats and dogs, but not
about, you know, the chicken, the pigs, the
(37:48):
cows that they're putting into their bodies because
of all these emotive societal ties that go
into it.
So I think there's that.
I think there's a huge blind spot when
it comes to the information.
I also think that people have lost trust
in the media and partly for the reasons
you talk about, advertisement.
And people, they see things in journals and
(38:08):
they just don't believe them anymore, which is
a psyche that goes beyond our animal protection
movements and invades all kinds of other movements
as well.
So there's that barrier to get across.
But we have the problem, and Jane, you'll
know this because you're in the news.
We struggle to get our investigations out there
(38:30):
even because a lot of the news editors
will say, I mean, we know it's slaughter,
it's horrible.
We know that animals suffer.
Yeah, when you go and talk to the
general public and show them this, they say,
wow, I didn't think this kind of thing
happened.
This is shocking.
No, it happens every day.
In every investigation that we do, we find
(38:52):
instances of cruelty to animals, blatant, egregious cruelty
to animals.
But, you know, so it's a strange paradox
where the news is saying, we know this,
we know it's cruel, yet the general public
doesn't.
So someone's not doing their job properly and
someone's not doing enough to educate the public,
or maybe the public also just have this
(39:12):
blind spot and don't want to know.
And everything, it's what I think is called
cognitive dissonance.
People have just switched off.
You know, I don't want to know.
I think the world is all hunky-dory
and I think that animals live outside in
fields and enjoy, and there's just one tiny
moment at the end of their lives.
That's just not the case.
We prove it on a daily basis with
(39:35):
our investigations, yet breaking through into the mainstream
and changing people's consciousness.
That's why a lot of organisations like mine,
like Animal Outlook, like everyone else, is really
searching for how do we get our message
out there?
Because, Jane, you're wonderful in inviting us into
the show and talking about it, but just
there's not enough opportunities to do that.
(39:55):
Well, absolutely.
I started this because I was in mainstream
media for decades and I've been behind the
curtain.
And you don't have to have somebody knock
on your door and say, hey, don't talk
about that.
You just look at the advertising on your
network and you could do the math pretty
easily.
You shouldn't talk about that.
And again, this is across the board.
(40:17):
It doesn't matter which network.
If there's advertising involved, they're not gonna cover
it generally.
Now, you have had success, though, in getting
some mainstream media coverage.
On this particular issue, the horrors in the
live market, you were on CBS News, San
Francisco Standard, and as I understand it, the
(40:41):
Daily Mail.
So what is your strategy when you approach
these media organisations?
How do you work it that you're able,
because you have to claw your way, like
getting one of these articles.
I know how hard it is.
How do you do it?
I mean, it's a really difficult process.
(41:05):
I came up in the animal protection movement
through doing press.
Before I joined the animal protection movement in
2011, I was an economist and I was
working in the city when the financial crisis
of 2009 happened.
And suddenly there was a lot of demand
from the news to work out what would
(41:25):
happen to the labour market, what would happen
to interest rates.
And so I started doing a lot of
press at my firm.
And so my first job in the movement
was with PETA, who do a lot of
press themselves and working in the press office.
And I did that for seven years.
So I learned some things along the way
about how to package a story, how to
make it interesting and make it easy for
(41:45):
reporters, because reporters are doing sometimes two or
three stories a day.
I spoke to one Daily Mail journalist once
who was doing 16 stories a day.
So you have to make it easy as
a PR.
There's tonnes of tips and tricks and dark
arts of PR as well, which Jane, I
know you know all about.
But it's about being relentless.
(42:07):
It's about, it's the same thing with our
movement.
And that's why I think communicators are really
important in our movement, because you just have
to be relentless.
You can't say no for an answer, and
you can't be dispirited by it either.
If we took every knock and every hurdle
in the road as we took it personally,
then we wouldn't achieve as much as we
(42:28):
can.
So you have to keep getting back, keep
moving forward.
And that's the only way.
So it's about being relentless.
It's about sending to a lot of people.
And you do find people, going back to
one point, and it's specific about who is
vegan, why we, you and I, Jane, and
many of your audience, I'm sure, why we've
(42:50):
made the connection.
What I love about our movement and why
I'm so positive that we will make a
vegan world happen is because you can, there's
vegans in every section of society, whether you're
in the news or you're a doctor or
you're a labourer, it doesn't take anything special
to be vegan.
You just have to, a switch has to
(43:12):
flip on.
And so that's why I'm so buoyed about
the future is because there's no barrier to
entry.
It's just about going, oh yeah, that's wrong.
And I shouldn't do that.
And I have the power to change.
I mean, so much in the world that
we can't change.
I have the power to do something about
it every time I sit down to eat.
And so you find those sympathetic reporters, those
(43:33):
reporters who you know, they're either vegan or
they have an interest in it, or you
think this, or their editors are saying, yeah,
this is a subject we really need to
do more on.
And certainly some outlets, Jane, you were wonderful
when you were doing a mainstream and now
you're wonderful being so focused on this now.
But there are a few reporters who you
know, you can go back to and who
have a megaphone who can say, yeah, this
(43:54):
is an issue that needs closer attention.
Well, thank you for those kind words.
There are a lot of, Vox is doing
great work.
Sentient Media is doing great work.
The Guardian, which is not as advertiser based
because my understanding is that there's a trust
that runs them, does incredible work on animal
rights.
So yes, Independent Media is doing some really
(44:17):
good work and we just hope it increases.
So getting back to our subject, what's next
for this live animal horror story?
Like what is it that people should do?
What are you gonna do?
Are there hearings that can be attended?
What's going on?
Yeah, thanks for asking.
(44:38):
So there is actually a hearing of the
Commission on Animal Welfare in San Francisco next
Thursday, Thursday the 13th at 5.30 PM
at City Hall in San Francisco.
And we urge people who want to, to
please come.
As if you're a resident of San Francisco,
even better.
You can have your say, you can have
your 30 seconds and give your opinion about
why these places should be shut down to
(44:59):
the Commission.
The Commission itself have been very good to
work with.
They don't have the power, they're not the
ACC, but they are representing San Franciscans when
it comes to issues of animal welfare.
So they will, hopefully if they take this
issue on board, they will put some more
pressure on ACC to do more enforcement when
it comes to live markets.
(45:21):
And so, yep, Thursday the 13th at 5
.30, City Hall.
We're having a little photo up on the
steps of City Hall and a little protest
before five o'clock on Thursday, February 13th.
So please do join us there in San
Francisco if you can.
There's an Eventbrite page that we've created.
(45:41):
We will, yeah, we'll send some information around
if you join our mailing list next week.
So please do join us for that.
And once- So if people go to
animaloutlook.org and there's a place to sign
up, go to animaloutlook.org and poke around,
but they can get all the information that
(46:02):
you've talked about there.
Yeah, yeah, they can indeed sign up to
our mailing list.
We'll send some information out about it next
week.
As a reminder, sign up to the Eventbrite
page and we look forward to seeing you
there.
We already know that we have at least
10 people coming who will have their say.
So we're really grateful for the support.
And then the ball's really in ACC's court.
(46:24):
If they continue not to take it seriously,
we'll have to look to step up our
campaign.
It might mean looking to make a political
change, getting the council, getting the city government
involved, because some of these things, as you
alluded to Jane, are decided on the ballot,
at the ballot box, are decided at the
higher echelons of politics.
(46:44):
And so we hope that they'll see the
necessity to do something about it.
We think it's really clear, it's night and
day, but if they fail to continuously, then
we're gonna have to move higher up and
further our tactics.
Well, we've only got a couple of minutes.
Let's just get personal.
How do you handle dealing with all of
(47:06):
these very difficult subjects?
As I said, just editing the videos to
put them on, it takes a toll, but
nothing like what you have to go through
probably looking at many, many, many hours and
really saturating yourself in this horror.
How do you handle it?
For those who are also involved in animal
(47:28):
activism, who are watching sometimes say, oh, I'm
getting so burnt out.
Yeah, it's horrible stuff.
I mean, you have to desensitise yourself a
little bit to it in order to survive.
You have to remember why you're here and
why you're in the privileged position of being
able to work on behalf of animals.
(47:49):
And that keeps you going.
But we do, certainly when it comes to
our investigators and mental health, we take that
incredibly seriously.
We have a support system for not just
our investigators, but all kinds of people doing
investigations in the field.
Because as I say, when you're actually living
in it, you think it's bad to watch
it when you're actually having to work in
it.
(48:10):
That's a whole nother level, which I just
can't imagine.
I've never done it myself.
So we take it incredibly seriously, the mental
health side and preparing people for it and
then giving them the resources, the support system.
So yeah, it's nasty stuff, but it happens.
And if you really want to end it,
if you don't want to see it, then
(48:30):
you've got to work to prevent it from
happening because otherwise you're just burying your head
in the sand.
So we appreciate, it's not for everybody.
We just appreciate any elements of support.
If it's not something that you can watch,
then hopefully you can help us by signing
those petitions, by donating and by having your
say at council meetings and things like that.
(48:51):
I think the heroes of our movement, the
real heroes of our movement are those who
go undercover.
I could tell you right now, I could
never do it.
It just takes a certain personality, a certain
level of bravery, grit and endurance.
And you have some of the top undercover
(49:13):
investigators in the animal rights movement.
Tell us about that.
Yeah, our investigations team has a combined experience
of about 16 years.
They actually train other investigators in the movement
through the International Investigator Training Programme and create
that support system.
So there are other fantastic investigators doing a
(49:34):
lot in the field.
But as you say, Animal Outlook, we started
doing this about 25 years ago, doing undercover
investigations, doing open rescues actually.
And we've just got such a great strategy,
which I was lucky enough to inherit from
my predecessor, Sheryl Leahy, who was at the
organisation for 18 years.
And there's just such a good strategy and
(49:55):
such a good structure in place that we
can do two or three of these undercover
investigations every year.
So we're in a lucky position to be
able to do it.
It's a privilege to work for animals.
It's a tough job, but it's one that
we feel has to be done.
And we're lucky enough to be able to
(50:16):
do it.
I think one of the statements being made
here by commentators who are watching on social
media really gets to the heart of the
matter.
What good are laws if they're not enforced?
California has passed, and I collected signatures years
ago.
I threw a party for Prop 2.
(50:36):
And Prop 12, I was so excited.
But if it's not enforced, and if the
laws against cruelty in San Francisco or in
LA or in San Diego or wherever in
California, we have some of the toughest laws,
but if they're not enforced, what's the point?
And Tom makes a very good, I think,
(50:58):
summary of the entire issue.
Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
We have to enforce the law.
That's why we work really hard with judges,
with prosecutors to bring about enforcement of it.
It's just a matter of priority.
And I think you don't have to be
a lawyer or a judge or involved in
the legal system.
If you care about animals, you do have
(51:20):
to just put pressure on whomever you can,
be it the politicians, be it your local
representatives.
Get to know your city councillor.
Get to know your mayor.
These people at local government level, they're the
ones who can influence the legal system.
And if the prosecutors aren't taking action, then
they can get them out.
So wherever you are in your advocacy, get
(51:42):
to know your political representatives because you can
help create change at the ballot box.
Let's vote in the people who do care
about animals and let's replace the people in
positions of power who don't.
So there's lots of actions that we as
individuals can take if we're of the mind
to do so.
And you're a very positive person.
Everybody's saying, wow, great, your optimism.
(52:05):
Sometimes I'm not as optimistic.
And what really got me was we just
went through a pandemic.
Now we're looking at a possible pandemic.
And I'm not the one saying that.
I'm not a scientist.
The New York Times has said bird flu
is entering a new phase.
(52:25):
It's not that a pandemic is inevitable, but
it says right at the bottom, the possibility
is no longer remote.
Okay, that's all the news that's fit to
print.
It seems like we don't learn from our
past mistakes.
As you said, whether it started in the
Wuhan market where they were torturing animals and
chopping them up as every live market and
(52:47):
keeping them in cramped conditions where disease can
spread, or they were torturing animals in experimentations
at the Wuhan lab.
Animal abuse was at the heart of that
pandemic and animal abuse will be at the
heart of a next pandemic.
God forbid, I don't wanna see it if
it happens.
It seems like humans are not learning the
(53:10):
key lesson.
And it's groupthink, groupthink that allows people to
say, I'm just not gonna connect the dots.
The powers that be aren't connecting the dots.
The media is not connecting the dots.
The government isn't connecting the dots.
The government is not even acknowledging, and I'm
(53:31):
talking about bipartisan, not acknowledging the impact of
animal agriculture on the climate.
Even though way back in 2008, the United
Nations said that animal agriculture is responsible for
more greenhouse gas emissions than all transportation combined.
Nobody's talking about it.
The UN COP conferences, they don't talk about
(53:52):
it.
So I guess our final thoughts, your final
thought before we wrap up, sorry.
No, how do you stay positive knowing that
there's such a massive industry and inertia against
you?
I just think because we all know, I'm
sure everyone watching your show knows deep down
(54:13):
that we're on the side of right.
So if all of us know that it's
right, then it doesn't matter who you are.
You just have to be convinced.
You have to be shown the right thing,
whether it's a documentary or a particular health
fact or a particular statistic, it could be.
I've known so many people whose vegan origin
(54:34):
stories starts in a strange way from a
book they read or a leaflet they got
or a friend they spoke to or a
meal they had.
So I think there's just so many opportunities
to create more vegans in this world.
And then once we hit a threshold of
people who care, whose knowledge, and one of
the reasons I'm so optimistic as well, information
(54:54):
has never been more available.
We can now distribute our investigations or your
news programme can get picked up any part
of the planet.
So because we have that ability to get
out our vegan message, I just think there's
many, many opportunities to get to reach people
with this message.
And that's why I'm so positive about it.
(55:15):
I hope that we don't have to go
through another pandemic in order to reach it.
And history shows that we may not even
learn our lessons then, but if you think
about just the suffering of the animals, that's
as clear as day.
And for that reason, there's never been a
more important time to go vegan.
Well, we are out of time.
So excited to have you on.
Your work is absolutely extraordinary.
(55:36):
And of course, I always urge people, along
with supporting Animal Outlook, please support Unchained TV.
We are a 501c3 nonprofit.
Download us right on your phone or your
television set.
So it's a vegan Netflix.
Okay, that's the craziest thing I've ever heard.
I love Unchained TV.
Unchained, Unchained TV.
(55:58):
Your life will change.
It's just that easy.
Unchained TV has all sorts of content for
everybody.
Unchained TV changed my life.
Unchained TV is crushing it.
I love Unchained TV.
Unchained TV is my go-to.
Unchained TV.
Who knew?
We have a breaking news for you.
It is making headlines all over the place.
As you can see, San Francisco, Chinatown, wet
markets under scrutiny for alleged animal cruelty.
Turtles' legs seen moving in response to being
cut apart.
This is a breaking news.
(00:20):
Live market horrors have been caught on tape.
Animal Outlook is charging that laws against animal
cruelty are simply not being enforced when it
comes to live animal markets in the San
Francisco area.
I gotta warn you, some of the things
we're showing you are just horrifying.
And they've provided this shocking video documenting widespread
(00:40):
abuse that they believe violates California law.
The group says, even though it's presented this
evidence and solutions, law enforcement just can't seem
to get around to taking action and enforce
the law.
The abuse involves turtles and frogs being cut
open while still alive.
That violates California law, which requires animals be
(01:01):
rendered unconscious or insensible to pain before death.
Now we invite the agencies involved on anytime
to respond.
Very happy to have today, Ben Williamson, the
executive director of Animal Outlook.
They have been leading the way on this
story with their undercover investigations.
(01:23):
So Ben, just bring us the very latest.
What is happening at these live markets?
Well, thanks so much for having me on
the show, Jane.
What you summed it up, we've done two
investigations now of these live markets in San
Francisco, one in 2022 and one in October,
(01:44):
2024.
And we went to dozens of these live
markets across the Bay Area.
And we find the same thing, routine daily
killing of animals in egregious ways, being bludgeoned
over the head, being cut open while they're
seemingly still alive, being suffocated, being placed into
plastic bags, animals trying to escape, animals tipping
(02:06):
out onto the street.
And it's really horrible stuff.
I mean, the cruelty is right there in
plain sight.
And we've, over the years, since our very
first investigation, we've submitted our complaints to the
SFACC, Animal Care and Control, who are charged
with enforcing the law when it comes to
animal cruelty.
And they just haven't done enough.
(02:27):
On our first investigation, they issued one citation
for animal cruelty, and that was for a
turtle who was being cut open alive.
So they acknowledged that there's a problem here.
They just, they say that they're kind of
powerless to do anything, which we disagree with.
Our lawyers have looked at the case law.
They've looked at all of the law in
regards to this.
And they say, no, not only does ACC
(02:49):
have the right to enforce the animal cruelty
law, which in California is pretty good, they
have an obligation to do so, because it's
certainly not up to the police.
The ACC is responsible to enforce animal cruelty
law in California, and they just haven't done
enough of it.
So again, this is disturbing footage.
(03:10):
And, you know, you've got to look at
this all the time.
Just uploading the video was so disturbing to
me.
And what occurs to me is that frogs,
turtles, and fish are just not considered a
top priority by society, which is so unfair.
(03:32):
I want to dive deep into some of
the responses.
Now, I have to tell you, we did
call San Francisco Animal Care and Control and
sought a response.
I did not get a call back.
However, San Francisco Animal Care and Control did
speak, at least issued a statement to CBS
News, which covered this, quote, while the allegations
(03:53):
are shocking, San Francisco Animal Care and Control
can only act on what we see.
We cannot cite based on videos.
Our animal control officers respond to constituent complaints
and concerns as quickly as we can with
the resources we have available.
So what is your response to their response
that they can't go on a video that
(04:15):
you've shown them, which we've all just watched,
which shows a giant mallet and a thrashing
animal, that they've got to see it themselves?
Yeah, well, there's two points they're making there,
right?
They're saying that they can't cite based on
video evidence and that they don't have the
resources available to enforce.
And we dispute both.
(04:36):
So for the video evidence case, I mean,
clearly you say that these animals are overlooked
by society.
This would never happen if it was humans,
right?
If we had documented reliable evidence of this
kind of thing happening to humans, you can
guarantee that the doors being kicked down would
be people going to jail for this.
So on case law, and we looked at
(04:56):
the traffic laws, the footage-involved traffic laws,
the case law is quite clear that you
can issue citations for footage-involved traffic law
violations.
You can do that for this as well.
Neither the US Constitution, the California Constitution, or
California Penal Code prevents the ACC from issuing
(05:17):
citations based on third-party video evidence.
That seems to be a rule that ACC
has just created for itself and it seems
to be quite convenient that they don't have
to do it because they say they don't.
In fact, California Penal Code is quite clear.
They have an exemption for arrests.
Arrests you have to witness firsthand.
The police and ACC, who also have the
(05:39):
ability to issue warrants and arrest people.
But citations, which are considered small fines at
best, which can be contested in court, the
people committing these apparent crimes can have their
day in court if they contest the citation.
They can be issued free and especially based
on third-party evidence, which is a way
(06:01):
of getting around the fact that they say
they have no resources.
That's the other thing we dispute.
They have 14 animal control officers.
They go to 10,000 calls every year,
most of them being cats and dogs because,
Jane, as you alluded to, society generally takes
cats and dog preferences over wild animals, over
aquatic animals.
(06:23):
So you could, we think, if you're not
gonna accept our evidence, which we think is
irrefutable, and they have also called shocking and
they have also issued citations based on our
evidence, or at least inspected based on our
evidence in the past, then you can at
least send your officers on a daily or
a weekly or a monthly basis because, as
I say, they know this stuff is happening.
We know it's happening.
(06:43):
Everyone in San Francisco knows this is happening,
but you can go see it for yourself,
issue citations, and maybe it will stop.
Well, this is not just happening in San
Francisco.
In New York City, there is a similar
battle against live markets, and this is just
so, so disturbing.
(07:06):
First of all, a couple of things.
It doesn't sound like you needed to go
in there and take a job as a
butcher to see this.
This is a retail market where people go
to get food, their idea of food, live
animals, and watch them be killed in front
(07:27):
of them and then take those animals home,
the carcasses, and eat them.
So it would appear to me, correct me
if I'm wrong, that you went in as
a shopper and documented this with a hidden
camera.
You didn't have to, your team didn't have
to take a job there and lurk around.
It seems like it's pretty much happening in
(07:47):
the open.
As one of the articles said, hidden in
plain sight is this cruelty.
So why can't they go and document exactly
what you documented with a simple trip there
in plain clothes?
Yeah, yeah, we feel that they could, and
we feel that it's just, you know, we
(08:08):
know these people to be well-meaning.
They are animal people, but for the reasons
that they've put up, and they're not giving
us that many reasons, as you said, they're
not in communication with us, but speaking through
the press, through all those articles that you've
cited, they do allude to the fact that
they say they can't accept third-party evidence
and they don't have the resources to send
people.
And that's just something I don't think is
(08:28):
valid.
14 animal control officers, 10,000 calls every
year.
Why can't you make time for these turtles
and these frogs?
And let's take a look at some of
their other, I'm gonna just say, excuses, all
right?
Now, you got written up at the San
Francisco Standard.
The deputy director of animal care and control
said, they told the Standard, the agency is
(08:49):
constrained because it's not staffed by sworn officers,
which means its team members have to witness
an offence in order to cite it.
Now, we just went over that.
They could go over just like you did.
And with a video camera or their phone,
any number of ways they could see what
you've seen with so many people who visit
these live animal markets, which are retail slaughterhouses,
(09:13):
see.
Then they said, the agency has not seen
anyone successfully prosecute live animal cruelty under current
laws.
Courts are backed up with serious felonies with
violent crimes.
So these are not always seen as a
priority.
To me, that gets to the heart of
this.
They don't see it as a priority.
They assume because it's a turtle or a
(09:35):
frog that, eh, but that's not the law.
The law is that in California, an animal
has to be rendered insensible or unconscious before
he or she is slaughtered.
Take it away.
Yeah, yeah, you're absolutely right.
I mean, that word, serious crimes, just alludes
(09:56):
to the fact that they're not taking it
as seriously as they should.
And because we're talking about other species, it's
a deprioritized target.
So we, as we say, we fully want
them, we're pushing them to actually do more
on this subject.
They have the power to do more.
(10:16):
They are enforced to do more.
They, the health code actually gives them the
power to issue citations, to issue fines.
It's there in plain writing in the California
health code.
While they may not be, they may not
feel that they have the power to arrest
people and enforce warrants, they can issue fines.
In fact, they're mandated to issue fines.
(10:37):
So that's what we're asking them to do.
If you issue enough citations on it, then
practises will change.
It will be financially impossible for these places
to keep doing what they're doing.
And that's how you can bring about change.
But they're also, they could work with police
if they wanted to, to enforce the law
and to bring about criminal prosecutions on this.
(10:57):
And so far we haven't seen any action
on either one.
So we just think that they're really falling
down here.
We think that we can, as a society,
as people who care about animals, as San
Francisco residents, and you're right, these things happen
all over the country as well.
And we urge anyone who's outraged about this
to contact their local officials and demand action
(11:20):
for the cruelty that's happening on a daily
basis in these live markets.
But we can push them to do more
on this.
And we just need some public support and
we need people to really take this responsibility
seriously.
So you had mentioned that this is a
coast to coast battle.
It's happening in New York.
(11:40):
There are many protests.
You're looking at an image of one of
them.
And we have a short clip to show
you of one of the shows about this
on Unshamed TV, which really documents the horror
of live markets.
This is from New York City.
(12:01):
Do you see any water troughs anywhere for
them?
I don't see any water troughs.
Get the fuck out.
Get the fuck out.
Don't touch her.
Do not touch her.
Get the fuck out.
Get the fuck out.
You may be surprised to learn wet markets
where live animals are sold on the spot
are also in the United States.
There are over 80 wet markets still operating
in the New York City area alone.
(12:21):
In Brooklyn, Astoria, Flushing, the Bronx, and Harlem.
Careful with the faeces.
You don't wanna bring that faeces home.
There's heads, guts, just leaving it on the
sidewalk.
Why are these live markets in our neighbourhood?
Right next to a dental office.
We can't be pointing the finger at China
when we have the same or worse conditions
here.
It doesn't matter whether they're wild animals or
(12:43):
domestic animals.
Live animal markets are a breeding ground for
disease.
And indeed, the next pandemic may come from
live bird markets in New York City rather
than wet markets somewhere in South Asia.
Does it have concerned you that you have
a live animal market in your own backyard?
Everybody gets upset, but the health department, nobody
(13:05):
wants to do anything.
If you don't like it, don't come by
there.
Because unfortunately, I personally can't do anything.
There we have it.
Two of the most influential cities in the
world, New York City and San Francisco.
(13:26):
And they're all over the country.
They're all over the world, these live animal
markets.
And what activist Adita Bernkranth said is, we're
pointing the finger at China for like their
Wuhan market, which some still now feel was
the source of the COVID pandemic.
There's always a debate.
Was it the lab in Wuhan?
(13:47):
Was it the wet market?
But we know that those wet markets are
a harbinger of disease.
We know we've got bird flu right now,
which is an escalating threat that is posing
a greater and greater problem.
This New York Times report just from the
other day says a dangerous virus, bird flu
(14:10):
enters a new phase.
A human pandemic is not inevitable, but a
series of developments indicates that the possibility is
no longer remote.
And despite this and despite that live markets
inherently have animals in crowded conditions, which is
a breeding ground for potential disease, still authorities
(14:31):
in New York, authorities in San Francisco, nowhere
are they taking action against these live markets,
Ben.
Yeah, I mean, you're right.
Even before the COVID pandemic, we all knew
that live markets were a source of possible
zoonosis, transfer of pathogens from non-human animals
to humans.
(14:52):
SARS, MERS, bird flu, swine flu, you name
it.
All of these diseases started in non-human
animals and can be passed.
So we haven't specifically looked at the health
implications of this as an animal protection organisation.
Our priority is with protecting these turtles, the
(15:12):
fish, the frogs.
But absolutely, you're right.
These places, I mean, you can smell the
gore, the blood as you walk past them,
as the bacteria that must be living in
all of them.
We don't want to be alarmist about this
thing, but if the history keeps showing that
(15:33):
these diseases are, these novel diseases are being
created in animals, in non-human animals, and
then transferring to humans, surely you've got to
do something about it.
And I think the whole, the Wuhan, whether
it was in a lab or the market,
has just kind of sidetracked us into not
taking the threat, the fact that it could
have possibly happened, and probably, a lot of
(15:56):
people think, probably happened at this wet market.
Surely that's enough to go on to say,
right, we should do something about this.
Enough is enough.
And we're getting other people saying, for example,
Tom, we have wet markets in Chicago too.
Yes, they're all over the country.
And speaking of the bird flu, we have
(16:18):
been very carefully following the developments because so
many of them are happening also here in
California.
I don't know if you've seen this, but
Dr. Crystal Keith, of our honour, went around
at her own risk and started documenting piles
of dead cows by the road in California,
(16:39):
apparent victims of bird flu.
And we know that bird flu has infected
cows and it has infected some people.
And again, the threat is very real.
So for those who might say, oh, we're
being alarmist, look at these images, okay?
And then let's go back to the images
(17:02):
that Ben Williamson's organisation, Animal Outlook, provided vis
-a-vis the conditions in these wet markets.
And again, we're not singling any one wet
market out.
This is how it's done.
It's live animals that are slaughtered on the
(17:22):
spot.
And you see there, frogs being beheaded with
no stunning.
So they're being chopped up alive.
Now, again, there you see, there's a fish
being chopped up alive.
We invite San Francisco Animal Care and Control
on any time to respond to anything said
today.
(17:43):
We would love to dialogue with you about
this issue.
There you see a turtle being struck with
a mallet then butchered.
I mean, now look, one of the things
that Adita Bernkrant, the activist said, don't point
the finger at China.
We're doing the same thing here.
And let's face it, factory farming is just
as cruel in a different way.
(18:05):
So nobody's attacking anybody's culture, but there is
a general reluctance, I think, to look at
any issue where somebody can say, you're attacking
my culture.
And we all have cultures.
I'm Puerto Rican and Irish.
Do not use my culture to justify animal
cruelty in any way, shape or form, all
(18:26):
right?
I don't want it.
It's no excuse for animal abuse.
And I think that the same would apply
to any culture.
There's no excuse for animal abuse.
What are your thoughts on that?
Yeah, yeah, I totally agree.
I mean, Animal Outlook as an organisation, we
spend most of our time doing undercover investigations
(18:47):
of those international massive agribusinesses, the likes of
Tyson and Foster Farms and JBS.
They're the organisations that provide the most amount
of meat and have the most culpability in
animal suffering, certainly in terms of scale.
So, and our message is a vegan one.
(19:07):
It's not singling out a particular slaughtering method.
We want all of this to stop because
we know that even with the best wool
in the world and the most humane slaughtering
techniques, it's still wrong to kill animals, take
the life of an animal who doesn't want
to die.
So our message is always vegan.
(19:27):
Our message is always, if you're upset by
what's happening at wet markets, but you still
eat meat, then you really need to rethink
that, your priorities there.
I will say something, Crystal Heath, who you
mentioned, has done fantastic work exposing the dairy,
the bird flu and dairy.
She's done more work to get veterinarians who
(19:48):
are another group who are quite absent on
this issue, on taking bird flu, on bird
safety and ventilation shutdown.
She's done more on this issue than almost
anybody in the movement.
So hats off to Crystal for all her
undercover analysis here.
But yeah, I mean, this is not an
issue of culture.
It's an issue of animal cruelty.
(20:09):
We take a plain view reading of the
law.
And if animals are suffering according to the
law, then wherever you live, whatever culture you're
part of, we're calling for that to stop.
Because let's face it, most of the time,
animals aren't represented very well in the law
because they don't vote.
This is one instance where the law is
really clear.
California's Penal Code, General Animal Cruelty Law, and
(20:32):
they also have a live market law specifically
to cater to our feathered and skinned friends.
It's one issue where we actually have good
law and the law is not being enforced.
Well, let me say this.
The idea of not enforcing animal cruelty laws
is such a big issue.
And so many organisations have tried to tackle
(20:53):
this with very little success.
As you know, California passed Prop 2 many
years ago that just wanted to give animals
room to turn around and spread their wings.
And then they most recently passed Prop 12,
which essentially bans pig gestation crates, which are
(21:14):
these hideous, like the first time I saw
one, I said, no, it's not possible that
human beings can be this sadistic to keep
animals in crates the size of their bodies,
never able to turn around, even scratch themselves,
they become psychotic.
And I just wonder about the human, it
(21:35):
makes me embarrassed to be a member of
the human race when I see something like
this, just beyond comprehension, horrible.
Well, California passed Prop 12, which says that
products from pigs kept in these crates cannot
be sold in California.
California is the fifth largest economy in the
world.
So that battle went all the way up
(21:56):
to the US Supreme Court and the US
Supreme Court said, Prop 12 is the law.
However, are there any enforcements?
No, there's never been an enforcement to my
knowledge and others who have been examining this
issue of either Prop 2 or Prop 12.
And then when animal organisations go in and
(22:17):
they document abuses of these particular propositions passed
by the California voters, what happens is they're
often prosecuted.
So I wanna play a clip for you
of protests about the prosecution of activists who
have gone in and documented what's happening to
(22:41):
these animals and taken a few symbolically out
as rescues.
And then they themselves, those animal rescuers are
prosecuted.
Sonoma County District Attorney.
Instead of prosecuting rescuers and whistleblowers, prosecute this.
(23:02):
On November 2nd, a jury in Sonoma County,
California convicted Wayne Chung, the co-founder of
Direct Action Everywhere, of three trespass charges associated
with the rescue of sick and dying ducks
and chickens in factory farms.
Now, advocates around the world are asking why
(23:22):
the Sonoma County District Attorney prosecuted a person
who was lawfully helping desperate animals instead of
the factory farmers engaging in criminal animal abuse.
Here's what New Yorkers have to say about
this miscarriage of justice.
Sonoma County District Attorney.
You have evidence of animals with painful injuries
who are starving to death right now because
(23:45):
they have no access to food and water.
Animals are being criminally abused at a duck
farm in Petaluma.
What steps are you taking to investigate and
stop the rampant criminal animal cruelty in your
animal factories?
How can you ignore the horrific abuse of
thousands of animals in your jurisdiction?
(24:05):
Sonoma County District Attorney.
When will you stop looking the other way
and prosecute this?
I'm appalled that you sent an animal rescuer
to jail when all he did was try
to help the victims who your office is
neglecting.
Sonoma County District Attorney.
Prosecute this.
Oh, you get the idea.
(24:26):
I know this is a totally different organisation
from yours and I'm not implying that you
guys are in any way connected.
The commonality is you are trying to get
San Francisco Animal Care and Control to prosecute
laws that say you cannot just chop up
animals alive in a wet market just because
(24:47):
it's a wet market.
They are trying to get a district attorney
in Sonoma County to prosecute what they say
are violations of animal cruelty laws happening in
factory farms.
And not only is there no prosecution, but
the people who go into these facilities, in
(25:08):
your case, you didn't have to go into
any, it's a retail market.
You go in as a shopper.
But in their case, they've got to go
in there to document, then they get prosecuted.
I mean, we're living in an upside down
world.
What are your thoughts on that?
Yeah, absolutely.
It's one of our biggest frustrations as an
organisation.
So Animal Outlook's theory of change is we
do our undercover investigations.
(25:28):
That's probably what people know us best for.
Then our legal team sues on the violations
of criminal statutes that we find as a
result of our investigations.
And then we use all of that as
our evidence base for our vegan outreach programme.
Now, the suing, the recommending charges, in the
case of live markets, recommended dozens of charges
and had one citation, as I mentioned, at
(25:50):
the top of the show issued.
It's just a lottery whether the people are
going, the judges in charge, whether the magistrates
are going to take up, whether the district
attorney is even going to file the charges,
let alone it go to court, whether the
police are going to take the time to
investigate.
It's just a lottery.
(26:10):
Sometimes you end up in the hands of
a sympathetic district attorney and they take it
on.
And we have been successful in the past
of getting guilty pleas and successful prosecutions and
fines and prevention of ever working with animals
again orders.
But a lot of the time, just getting
people to prioritise the animal suffering that we
(26:32):
have documented so clearly and so meticulously, and
we take so much time and effort to
do that, making sure that we're always on
the right side of the law.
We're not doing anything illegal, which would invalidate
all of the evidence.
We do so carefully plan these things, but
just because someone doesn't feel like it, someone
hasn't put it to the top of their
pile, these things can call for that.
(26:53):
And that could be months and months of
work down the drain.
Now, in the case of direct action everywhere
and actually going after the wrong people, fortunately,
we've never been on that side.
And I hope that we're not on the
side of being prosecuted ourselves, because as I
say, we plan these things so meticulously and
we aren't doing open rescues.
(27:15):
Unfortunately, our investigators are in the impossible position
of having to watch the cruelty, having to
document the cruelty without having, otherwise they'd blow
their cover, the ability to intervene and prevent
it from happening.
It's more impactful if we can document it,
watch it and all the suffering that goes
into it, and then extricate ourselves and then
(27:36):
push for criminal prosecutions.
Because as we know, the way our theory
of change works is if you can get
those sympathetic DAs or the police to take
this seriously, and you can get a judge
to rule when you have what's called the
police and other organisations, if you can do
that, you build up a series of case
law where then in the future, judges and
(27:56):
DAs have no alternative, but to say, okay,
because this happened in the past and the
case law is such, we have to now
follow through on this.
Animals won't be, you know, it's like the
non-human rights project.
Animals can't be turned over again and again.
At some point, the penny has to drop
and there has to be a tipping point
(28:17):
where suddenly it becomes imperative for people in
authority to act on the incomprehensible, but also
the irrefutable evidence that we've provided.
Well, you talk about tipping points.
So let's broaden our conversation out a little
bit because let's face it, the animal rights
(28:38):
movement has been under attack lately.
The vegan movement has been under attack.
Personally, the way I see it, when Beyond
Meat's incredibly successful initial public offering hit in
2019, the stock shot up, everybody was talking
about it.
Animal agriculture went, oh my gosh, we better.
(28:58):
And they literally started a PR war against
veggie burgers and it's taken its toll.
That's why I always tell vegans, I don't
care what your form of veganism is, don't
attack veggie burgers.
They're a thousand times healthier than meat burgers.
Processed meat is officially cancer causing and all
(29:19):
processed is not equal.
You take a banana and a mango and
you mush them up, that's processed.
That doesn't mean it's bad for you.
But suffice it to say that I urge
people, do not repeat meat industry talking points.
So there's that.
And unfortunately, if we look at the number
(29:41):
of animals killed, it continues to go up.
Now, when I look at this and it
breaks my heart to look at this, and
this is the result of all sorts of
individuals across the world making a choice to
eat animals, but you can see very clearly
that the number one animal being killed for
food is chicken.
(30:02):
And this to me seems that it's gotta
be an opportunity that if we could somehow,
you've got the bird flu issue, right?
You've got the health issues of cholesterol and
heart disease.
You've got so many issues.
If we could convince people just to forsake
(30:24):
chicken as a first step, perhaps, even though
that seems to be sometimes the first thing
when people give up eating quote unquote red
meat, they start eating chicken.
But to me, there's gotta be an opportunity
there to just tackle this massive chicken consumption
and maybe put a dent in those numbers.
(30:45):
I know it's a little off topic, but
I was wondering what your thoughts are on
that.
Yeah, absolutely, you're right.
Chickens are by far the most abused animal
on the planet.
And that's why a lot of our undercover
investigations are in grower farms, they're in contract
catcher crews.
The suffering is enormous.
(31:05):
Our most recent investigation, Jane, which you had
me on the show for a few months
ago, of Foster Farms, which is California's largest
poultry producer, showed workers violently throwing and kicking
the animals and punching them, and forklifts, trucks
running over, clipping the wings of birds and
then backing up over them as well.
So we know that the cruelty happens.
(31:25):
We know that it's a cause of, at
the moment, certainly bird flu, when you keep
that many animals tightly compacted into one of
those windowless sheds.
So we do go after chicken.
I think what the ability of the conversations
around live markets allows us to do is
also to have those kinds of conversations with
(31:45):
people as a new entry point.
Because you get to people who eat chicken
but are against the suffering of turtles and
frogs by saying, well, what's the difference between
a turtle, a frog, and a chicken?
These abuses happen everywhere.
My personal opinion is if there's money to
be made from animals, corners are going to
be cut and animals are going to suffer.
That happens anywhere.
(32:07):
So we have to take the use of
animals out of the system, the money, monetary
incentives, the financial incentives out of it, and
then animals will cease to suffer.
But for now, chicken is, you know, it
is the number one abused animal.
It is the one that, if we could
end the suffering of chickens, we would have
(32:27):
done a lot to end the suffering of
animals altogether.
I think the meat substitutes that you've talked
about, the technology is just getting better and
better.
You know, we did have that high point
at the IPO of Beyond Meat.
It seems to have plateaued now.
And I think that has a lot to
do with the cost of living crisis, the
fact that inflation is so high and people
just aren't feeling that ability to spend a
(32:50):
bit more.
As the technology improves, as the economy of
scale grows, you know, I just had the
impossible Lion King nuggets that I give to
my kids.
You know, that's a wonderful invention that replaces
those kind of dino nugget things that Tyson
Purdue and all those companies produce.
So that is the way that we do
(33:11):
this by scaling up those fantastic, delicious, that
just come on leaps and bounds in the
last decade.
Certainly, you know, Jane, you and I remember
what it was like to eat all those
analogue, let's call them, initial first round burgers
and franks and those kinds of things.
So that's how we do it.
We keep showing the cruelty.
We keep breaking out of our vegan bubble
(33:32):
as well, because we're the best one in
the world.
We are a relatively small community.
We need to keep taking our footage to
the streets to show people who have never
seen this, who have never thought about animal
suffering in their life, who have never tasted
a veggie burger, let alone an impossible dino
nugget, and show them and get them to
realise just how wonderful this world is.
And if they could make choices in their
(33:53):
daily lives, which don't have any suffering, you
know, why would they choose otherwise?
Yes, you're making so many good points.
And I feel there's no stopping a movement
whose time has come and ours has certainly
come.
This New York Times article, I think, sums
it up.
Save the planet, put down that hamburger.
(34:15):
Researchers examined the diet of 55,500 people
and found that vegans are responsible for 75
% less in greenhouse gases than meat eaters.
And, you know, it's interesting because no other
network picked that up.
I looked that night and for next couple
of nights, you never hear mainstream media talking
(34:37):
about animal agriculture's impact on the climate or
a plant-based solution to the climate crisis.
And why is that?
Look at the advertisers, meat, dairy, fast food,
pharmaceuticals.
Those are the very industries that would suffer
mightily if people got healthy and stopped eating
meat and dairy packed fast food that is
(34:59):
causing so many health crises in this country.
Two thirds of Americans are overweight or obese.
We have heart disease as a leading killer.
We have cancer, processed meat is officially cancer
causing.
According to the World Health Organisation, even the
NIH, National Institutes of Health admits that most
people experience lactose malabsorption.
(35:22):
That means most people are allergic to dairy
and shouldn't be drinking it.
I would just like to get your thoughts.
Why is it that what is so obvious
to us, and, you know, it's very apparent
in the media today that they like to
look at sort of these, ah, you know,
(35:42):
solutions or things that are trending.
And I like to cite the 80-20
rule.
I typed it down here somewhere.
I can't find it.
But anyway, the 80-20 rule is that
20% of inputs create 80% of
outcomes.
And as soon as I saw that and
read an article about it, I was like,
(36:03):
ta-dum, that is animal agriculture.
It's the 20% creating the 80%
of negative outcomes for the climate, animal abuse,
human health, ah, disasters, ah, pollution, you know,
ocean desertification, ah, all sorts of problems that
(36:24):
are the result of this one industry.
Why do you think the intelligentsia, and it's
a bipartisan problem.
Both administrations have been, well, historically, Republicans and
Democrats have been horrible on this issue.
Let's say in the past, historically.
I don't want to get into politics.
(36:44):
But why do you think that the best
and the brightest, the smartest in the room
can't see what is so obvious to us?
Yeah, I mean, it's a really interesting question.
And it's one that kind of confounds behaviour
scientists to this day.
We've done a lot of research.
We worked with the Yale School for Environment
(37:06):
and Public Health.
We've worked with the School of Communications down
at the University of Florida.
Because this aspect of how you change human
behaviour is so important.
And there are, when you're talking about something
that you've put into your body three times
a day, it's a very loaded question.
People, there's such cultural identity that people associate
with food.
I mean, we started talking about the fly
(37:26):
market issue.
You know, the cultural identity issue, the familial
ties, the social aspects.
You know, there's a lot that goes into
people's food choices.
I mean, that's why it's fairly easy to
get people, the general public riled up about
the torture of cats and dogs, but not
about, you know, the chicken, the pigs, the
(37:48):
cows that they're putting into their bodies because
of all these emotive societal ties that go
into it.
So I think there's that.
I think there's a huge blind spot when
it comes to the information.
I also think that people have lost trust
in the media and partly for the reasons
you talk about, advertisement.
And people, they see things in journals and
(38:08):
they just don't believe them anymore, which is
a psyche that goes beyond our animal protection
movements and invades all kinds of other movements
as well.
So there's that barrier to get across.
But we have the problem, and Jane, you'll
know this because you're in the news.
We struggle to get our investigations out there
(38:30):
even because a lot of the news editors
will say, I mean, we know it's slaughter,
it's horrible.
We know that animals suffer.
Yeah, when you go and talk to the
general public and show them this, they say,
wow, I didn't think this kind of thing
happened.
This is shocking.
No, it happens every day.
In every investigation that we do, we find
(38:52):
instances of cruelty to animals, blatant, egregious cruelty
to animals.
But, you know, so it's a strange paradox
where the news is saying, we know this,
we know it's cruel, yet the general public
doesn't.
So someone's not doing their job properly and
someone's not doing enough to educate the public,
or maybe the public also just have this
(39:12):
blind spot and don't want to know.
And everything, it's what I think is called
cognitive dissonance.
People have just switched off.
You know, I don't want to know.
I think the world is all hunky-dory
and I think that animals live outside in
fields and enjoy, and there's just one tiny
moment at the end of their lives.
That's just not the case.
We prove it on a daily basis with
(39:35):
our investigations, yet breaking through into the mainstream
and changing people's consciousness.
That's why a lot of organisations like mine,
like Animal Outlook, like everyone else, is really
searching for how do we get our message
out there?
Because, Jane, you're wonderful in inviting us into
the show and talking about it, but just
there's not enough opportunities to do that.
(39:55):
Well, absolutely.
I started this because I was in mainstream
media for decades and I've been behind the
curtain.
And you don't have to have somebody knock
on your door and say, hey, don't talk
about that.
You just look at the advertising on your
network and you could do the math pretty
easily.
You shouldn't talk about that.
And again, this is across the board.
(40:17):
It doesn't matter which network.
If there's advertising involved, they're not gonna cover
it generally.
Now, you have had success, though, in getting
some mainstream media coverage.
On this particular issue, the horrors in the
live market, you were on CBS News, San
Francisco Standard, and as I understand it, the
(40:41):
Daily Mail.
So what is your strategy when you approach
these media organisations?
How do you work it that you're able,
because you have to claw your way, like
getting one of these articles.
I know how hard it is.
How do you do it?
I mean, it's a really difficult process.
(41:05):
I came up in the animal protection movement
through doing press.
Before I joined the animal protection movement in
2011, I was an economist and I was
working in the city when the financial crisis
of 2009 happened.
And suddenly there was a lot of demand
from the news to work out what would
(41:25):
happen to the labour market, what would happen
to interest rates.
And so I started doing a lot of
press at my firm.
And so my first job in the movement
was with PETA, who do a lot of
press themselves and working in the press office.
And I did that for seven years.
So I learned some things along the way
about how to package a story, how to
make it interesting and make it easy for
(41:45):
reporters, because reporters are doing sometimes two or
three stories a day.
I spoke to one Daily Mail journalist once
who was doing 16 stories a day.
So you have to make it easy as
a PR.
There's tonnes of tips and tricks and dark
arts of PR as well, which Jane, I
know you know all about.
But it's about being relentless.
(42:07):
It's about, it's the same thing with our
movement.
And that's why I think communicators are really
important in our movement, because you just have
to be relentless.
You can't say no for an answer, and
you can't be dispirited by it either.
If we took every knock and every hurdle
in the road as we took it personally,
then we wouldn't achieve as much as we
(42:28):
can.
So you have to keep getting back, keep
moving forward.
And that's the only way.
So it's about being relentless.
It's about sending to a lot of people.
And you do find people, going back to
one point, and it's specific about who is
vegan, why we, you and I, Jane, and
many of your audience, I'm sure, why we've
(42:50):
made the connection.
What I love about our movement and why
I'm so positive that we will make a
vegan world happen is because you can, there's
vegans in every section of society, whether you're
in the news or you're a doctor or
you're a labourer, it doesn't take anything special
to be vegan.
You just have to, a switch has to
(43:12):
flip on.
And so that's why I'm so buoyed about
the future is because there's no barrier to
entry.
It's just about going, oh yeah, that's wrong.
And I shouldn't do that.
And I have the power to change.
I mean, so much in the world that
we can't change.
I have the power to do something about
it every time I sit down to eat.
And so you find those sympathetic reporters, those
(43:33):
reporters who you know, they're either vegan or
they have an interest in it, or you
think this, or their editors are saying, yeah,
this is a subject we really need to
do more on.
And certainly some outlets, Jane, you were wonderful
when you were doing a mainstream and now
you're wonderful being so focused on this now.
But there are a few reporters who you
know, you can go back to and who
have a megaphone who can say, yeah, this
(43:54):
is an issue that needs closer attention.
Well, thank you for those kind words.
There are a lot of, Vox is doing
great work.
Sentient Media is doing great work.
The Guardian, which is not as advertiser based
because my understanding is that there's a trust
that runs them, does incredible work on animal
rights.
So yes, Independent Media is doing some really
(44:17):
good work and we just hope it increases.
So getting back to our subject, what's next
for this live animal horror story?
Like what is it that people should do?
What are you gonna do?
Are there hearings that can be attended?
What's going on?
Yeah, thanks for asking.
(44:38):
So there is actually a hearing of the
Commission on Animal Welfare in San Francisco next
Thursday, Thursday the 13th at 5.30 PM
at City Hall in San Francisco.
And we urge people who want to, to
please come.
As if you're a resident of San Francisco,
even better.
You can have your say, you can have
your 30 seconds and give your opinion about
why these places should be shut down to
(44:59):
the Commission.
The Commission itself have been very good to
work with.
They don't have the power, they're not the
ACC, but they are representing San Franciscans when
it comes to issues of animal welfare.
So they will, hopefully if they take this
issue on board, they will put some more
pressure on ACC to do more enforcement when
it comes to live markets.
(45:21):
And so, yep, Thursday the 13th at 5
.30, City Hall.
We're having a little photo up on the
steps of City Hall and a little protest
before five o'clock on Thursday, February 13th.
So please do join us there in San
Francisco if you can.
There's an Eventbrite page that we've created.
(45:41):
We will, yeah, we'll send some information around
if you join our mailing list next week.
So please do join us for that.
And once- So if people go to
animaloutlook.org and there's a place to sign
up, go to animaloutlook.org and poke around,
but they can get all the information that
(46:02):
you've talked about there.
Yeah, yeah, they can indeed sign up to
our mailing list.
We'll send some information out about it next
week.
As a reminder, sign up to the Eventbrite
page and we look forward to seeing you
there.
We already know that we have at least
10 people coming who will have their say.
So we're really grateful for the support.
And then the ball's really in ACC's court.
(46:24):
If they continue not to take it seriously,
we'll have to look to step up our
campaign.
It might mean looking to make a political
change, getting the council, getting the city government
involved, because some of these things, as you
alluded to Jane, are decided on the ballot,
at the ballot box, are decided at the
higher echelons of politics.
(46:44):
And so we hope that they'll see the
necessity to do something about it.
We think it's really clear, it's night and
day, but if they fail to continuously, then
we're gonna have to move higher up and
further our tactics.
Well, we've only got a couple of minutes.
Let's just get personal.
How do you handle dealing with all of
(47:06):
these very difficult subjects?
As I said, just editing the videos to
put them on, it takes a toll, but
nothing like what you have to go through
probably looking at many, many, many hours and
really saturating yourself in this horror.
How do you handle it?
For those who are also involved in animal
(47:28):
activism, who are watching sometimes say, oh, I'm
getting so burnt out.
Yeah, it's horrible stuff.
I mean, you have to desensitise yourself a
little bit to it in order to survive.
You have to remember why you're here and
why you're in the privileged position of being
able to work on behalf of animals.
(47:49):
And that keeps you going.
But we do, certainly when it comes to
our investigators and mental health, we take that
incredibly seriously.
We have a support system for not just
our investigators, but all kinds of people doing
investigations in the field.
Because as I say, when you're actually living
in it, you think it's bad to watch
it when you're actually having to work in
it.
(48:10):
That's a whole nother level, which I just
can't imagine.
I've never done it myself.
So we take it incredibly seriously, the mental
health side and preparing people for it and
then giving them the resources, the support system.
So yeah, it's nasty stuff, but it happens.
And if you really want to end it,
if you don't want to see it, then
(48:30):
you've got to work to prevent it from
happening because otherwise you're just burying your head
in the sand.
So we appreciate, it's not for everybody.
We just appreciate any elements of support.
If it's not something that you can watch,
then hopefully you can help us by signing
those petitions, by donating and by having your
say at council meetings and things like that.
(48:51):
I think the heroes of our movement, the
real heroes of our movement are those who
go undercover.
I could tell you right now, I could
never do it.
It just takes a certain personality, a certain
level of bravery, grit and endurance.
And you have some of the top undercover
(49:13):
investigators in the animal rights movement.
Tell us about that.
Yeah, our investigations team has a combined experience
of about 16 years.
They actually train other investigators in the movement
through the International Investigator Training Programme and create
that support system.
So there are other fantastic investigators doing a
(49:34):
lot in the field.
But as you say, Animal Outlook, we started
doing this about 25 years ago, doing undercover
investigations, doing open rescues actually.
And we've just got such a great strategy,
which I was lucky enough to inherit from
my predecessor, Sheryl Leahy, who was at the
organisation for 18 years.
And there's just such a good strategy and
(49:55):
such a good structure in place that we
can do two or three of these undercover
investigations every year.
So we're in a lucky position to be
able to do it.
It's a privilege to work for animals.
It's a tough job, but it's one that
we feel has to be done.
And we're lucky enough to be able to
(50:16):
do it.
I think one of the statements being made
here by commentators who are watching on social
media really gets to the heart of the
matter.
What good are laws if they're not enforced?
California has passed, and I collected signatures years
ago.
I threw a party for Prop 2.
(50:36):
And Prop 12, I was so excited.
But if it's not enforced, and if the
laws against cruelty in San Francisco or in
LA or in San Diego or wherever in
California, we have some of the toughest laws,
but if they're not enforced, what's the point?
And Tom makes a very good, I think,
(50:58):
summary of the entire issue.
Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
We have to enforce the law.
That's why we work really hard with judges,
with prosecutors to bring about enforcement of it.
It's just a matter of priority.
And I think you don't have to be
a lawyer or a judge or involved in
the legal system.
If you care about animals, you do have
(51:20):
to just put pressure on whomever you can,
be it the politicians, be it your local
representatives.
Get to know your city councillor.
Get to know your mayor.
These people at local government level, they're the
ones who can influence the legal system.
And if the prosecutors aren't taking action, then
they can get them out.
So wherever you are in your advocacy, get
(51:42):
to know your political representatives because you can
help create change at the ballot box.
Let's vote in the people who do care
about animals and let's replace the people in
positions of power who don't.
So there's lots of actions that we as
individuals can take if we're of the mind
to do so.
And you're a very positive person.
Everybody's saying, wow, great, your optimism.
(52:05):
Sometimes I'm not as optimistic.
And what really got me was we just
went through a pandemic.
Now we're looking at a possible pandemic.
And I'm not the one saying that.
I'm not a scientist.
The New York Times has said bird flu
is entering a new phase.
(52:25):
It's not that a pandemic is inevitable, but
it says right at the bottom, the possibility
is no longer remote.
Okay, that's all the news that's fit to
print.
It seems like we don't learn from our
past mistakes.
As you said, whether it started in the
Wuhan market where they were torturing animals and
chopping them up as every live market and
(52:47):
keeping them in cramped conditions where disease can
spread, or they were torturing animals in experimentations
at the Wuhan lab.
Animal abuse was at the heart of that
pandemic and animal abuse will be at the
heart of a next pandemic.
God forbid, I don't wanna see it if
it happens.
It seems like humans are not learning the
(53:10):
key lesson.
And it's groupthink, groupthink that allows people to
say, I'm just not gonna connect the dots.
The powers that be aren't connecting the dots.
The media is not connecting the dots.
The government isn't connecting the dots.
The government is not even acknowledging, and I'm
(53:31):
talking about bipartisan, not acknowledging the impact of
animal agriculture on the climate.
Even though way back in 2008, the United
Nations said that animal agriculture is responsible for
more greenhouse gas emissions than all transportation combined.
Nobody's talking about it.
The UN COP conferences, they don't talk about
(53:52):
it.
So I guess our final thoughts, your final
thought before we wrap up, sorry.
No, how do you stay positive knowing that
there's such a massive industry and inertia against
you?
I just think because we all know, I'm
sure everyone watching your show knows deep down
(54:13):
that we're on the side of right.
So if all of us know that it's
right, then it doesn't matter who you are.
You just have to be convinced.
You have to be shown the right thing,
whether it's a documentary or a particular health
fact or a particular statistic, it could be.
I've known so many people whose vegan origin
(54:34):
stories starts in a strange way from a
book they read or a leaflet they got
or a friend they spoke to or a
meal they had.
So I think there's just so many opportunities
to create more vegans in this world.
And then once we hit a threshold of
people who care, whose knowledge, and one of
the reasons I'm so optimistic as well, information
(54:54):
has never been more available.
We can now distribute our investigations or your
news programme can get picked up any part
of the planet.
So because we have that ability to get
out our vegan message, I just think there's
many, many opportunities to get to reach people
with this message.
And that's why I'm so positive about it.
(55:15):
I hope that we don't have to go
through another pandemic in order to reach it.
And history shows that we may not even
learn our lessons then, but if you think
about just the suffering of the animals, that's
as clear as day.
And for that reason, there's never been a
more important time to go vegan.
Well, we are out of time.
So excited to have you on.
Your work is absolutely extraordinary.
(55:36):
And of course, I always urge people, along
with supporting Animal Outlook, please support Unchained TV.
We are a 501c3 nonprofit.
Download us right on your phone or your
television set.
So it's a vegan Netflix.
Okay, that's the craziest thing I've ever heard.
I love Unchained TV.
Unchained, Unchained TV.
(55:58):
Your life will change.
It's just that easy.
Unchained TV has all sorts of content for
everybody.
Unchained TV changed my life.
Unchained TV is crushing it.
I love Unchained TV.
Unchained TV is my go-to.
Unchained TV.
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