Was Woodrow Wilson a visionary statesman—or a reactionary bigot? Peter Robinson sits down with historian and former SEC Chairman Christopher Cox to discuss his latest book, Woodrow Wilson: The Light Withdrawn, Cox’s meticulously researched biography of the 28th president of the United States.
Together, they explore Wilson’s complicated legacy: his towering achievements as a reformer and wartime leader and his deeply troubling record on race, gender, and civil rights. From his opposition to women’s suffrage and his resegregation of the federal government to his embrace of the film, The Birth of a Nation, Cox reveals how Wilson’s Southern upbringing and elitist worldview shaped both his presidency and progressivism itself. This conversation offers a sobering reappraisal of one of America’s most consequential and controversial leaders—and asks what it means to judge historical figures by the standards of both their time and ours.
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>> Peter Robinson (00:00):
I'm Peter Robinson of Uncommon Knowledge.
To honor the remarkable scholarshipof Thomas Sowell, renowned economist,
social theorist, public intellectual,and Hoover Senior Fellow,
we're inviting everyone inspired by hiswork to enter two national contests.
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(00:21):
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(00:44):
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(01:08):
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visit hoover.org/thomas-sowel-legacy,
(01:31):
hoover.org/thomas-sowell-legacy, thankyou.
Woodrow Wilson, our 28th president,a great man or a misogynist and bigot?
>> Christopher Cox (01:44):
Historian Christopher Cox on Uncommon Knowledge, now.
[MUSIC]
>> Peter Robinson (01:58):
Welcome to Uncommon Knowledge, I'm Peter Robinson.
A native of St.
Paul, Minnesota, Christopher Cox holds anundergraduate degree from the University
of Southern California andboth JD and MBA degrees from Harvard.
Mr. Cox's government service wasextensive, he served in the counsel's
office in the Reagan White House,where we became friends.
He represented a district in SouthernCalifornia in the House of Representatives
(02:21):
for 16 years, and he served as chairman ofthe securities and Exchange Commission.
Since leaving government in 2009, Mr.
Cox has practiced law in SouthernCalifornia and turned 14 years ago?
14 years ago, to the writing ofthe biography published late last year,
Woodrow Wilson, The Light Withdrawn.
(02:42):
John Greenleaf Whittier onDaniel Webster in an 1850 poem,
so fallen, so lost, the light withdrawn,which once he wore.
The glory from his gray hairs goneForevermore, The Light Withdrawn.
>> Christopher Cox (02:56):
The light withdrawn is.
>> Peter Robinson (02:57):
Why is that the title?
>> Christopher Cox (02:58):
It comes from a poem, John Greenleaf Whittier was
an abolitionist poet, and he was writingabout an event that shook him and
abolitionists throughout New England andreally across the country.
Which was Daniel Webster,Senator Webster, abolition champion,
letting them down, someone whomthey had put all their faith in.
(03:23):
And the question addressed andanswered in the poem is,
how do you react when a politicalfigure that you have lionized and
aggrandized and thought sohighly of breaks your heart?
And the answer, he said,is not to pile on and
not to be angry, but sad and humble and
(03:46):
recognize that everyone,they're all human,
everyone has the opportunityto fail in various ways.
>> Peter Robinson (04:00):
And most of us take the opportunity.
>> Christopher Cox (04:01):
Leaders do as well.
>> Peter Robinson (04:02):
All right. >> Christopher Cox
writing a century afterWoodrow Wilson was on the scene,
that, that kind of dispassion andempathy for him and also for
the other people who challengedhim during his career,
it was the appropriate approach.
All right,
(04:23):
let's take a moment to establishjust who Woodrow Wilson was.
Wilson's date, 1856 to 1924, he becomesa professor of what we would now
call Political Science at the Collegeof New Jersey, soon renamed Princeton,
12 years later,he's named president of Princeton.
Eight years later,he's elected governor of New Jersey,
and two years after that, in 1912, he'selected president of the United States.
(04:47):
Re-elected to a second term in 1916,meteoric rise.
>> Christopher Cox (04:52):
Absolutely.
>> Peter Robinson (04:53):
What does Wilson accomplish during his two terms as
president?
Well, here's the conventional view.
He reduces the country'sreliance on import tariffs by
introducing our first federal income tax.
He establishes the Federal Reserve System,he creates the Federal Trade Commission,
which enables the executivebranch to regulate monopolies.
(05:14):
He expands protections fororganized labor and worker safety,
he wins the First World War.
He negotiates the Treaty of Versailles,for
which he's awarded the Nobel Peace Prize.
And although he fails to bring the UnitedStates into the New League of Nations,
his design for the League servesas a model for the United nations,
which the United States does join,just over a quarter of a century later,
(05:36):
after the Second World War.
Woodrow Wilson stunningrise in politics then,
one of the most consequentialpresidencies in American history.
Christopher Cox, what the heckhave you got against this guy?
>> Christopher Cox (05:49):
Well, first of all,
as we were just discussing withJohn Greenleaf Whittier's admonition
to be humble as we approach these subjectsof people who break our hearts, the people
whose hearts were broken are all dead,as well as Woodrow Wilson is dead.
But the people in this casewho were let down were
(06:11):
not only women in America,not only Black Americans,
and the people who supported them,who were their allies.
But more generally, it was the wholecountry that paid the price for
this, and we who live decadeslater certainly see this
(06:36):
in much more stark relief than wewould have if we'd lived at the time.
And the people who were passionatelyinvested in these issues, and
there were many of them,
certainly knew better than we can now whatwas at stake and how difficult it was.
But this was a big issue thatneeds to be added to the list.
(06:57):
So the list that you itemized is prettywell known, there have been many,
many biographies of Woodrow Wilson.
If you're gonna write a new biographyabout a president who's been covered
in literally over a thousand books,you better have something new to say.
What has been left out of the standardWilson biography is his views on race and
(07:18):
his views on sex, by the way,we call it gender today, but
it was sex at the time, andit's sex in the constitution.
>> Peter Robinson (07:27):
Okay, so let's go straight to that then.
[COUGH] From The Light Withdrawn,Wilson and the suffragettes.
Quote, Wilson found teachingwomen history and politics.
And here you quote Wilson himself,about as appropriate as would be lecturing
to stonemasons on the evolutionof fashion, close quote.
Explain that remark, explain the point.
>> Christopher Cox (07:49):
Well, first of all, it's pretty straightforward,
he doesn't think that women,girls, as he often called them,
even though they were graduate students.
Students in many cases, in somecases plenty older than he was, but
he didn't believe that they had anybusiness studying the history of
government or politics.
(08:10):
Because they had no role, no civic rolein participating in democracy that way,
he had no trouble expressingthese views in private.
You started your descriptionof his political
career with Princeton,that was his third stop as.
>> Peter Robinson (08:34):
As a teacher.
>> Christopher Cox (08:35):
And he was 28 when he got his first paying job as a teacher, so
there was a lot that happenedbefore that that framed his views,
he was a child of the Civil War,he was a child of Reconstruction.
>> Peter Robinson (08:49):
He grew up in?
>> Christopher Cox (08:50):
He was born in Virginia,
grew up till teenage years in Georgia,then his family moved and
he moved with them to South Carolina,then they moved to North Carolina.
He then, as part of his schooling,went to the University of Virginia for
one year of law schoolbefore he dropped out.
(09:11):
He then three years later, went to Atlantato attempt to practice law even though
he didn't have a degree, that didn't workout either, so he quit that after a year.
So a lot of formative time in the south,but particularly,
his years of living through Reconstructionwere really important for Woodrow Wilson.
>> Peter Robinson (09:34):
Okay, let's take a moment on that, his family, tell us about
his family, the role they played in, well,where they stood during the Civil War,
and what Reconstruction meant totheir family, take a moment on that.
>> Christopher Cox (09:48):
Yeah, so Woodrow Wilson had very few friends as a child and
as a teenager, buthe was really strongly attached
to his father,he hero worshiped his father.
His father was Presbyterian Minister,went by Dr.
(10:10):
Wilson in all quarters, even thoughhe did not earn a doctorate anywhere.
He got an honorary degreewhen he was a young
man from a small collegethat nobody's ever heard of.
Dr. Wilson preached to his segregatedcongregation that slavery,
remember, we're talking aboutthe Pre-Civil War years right now,
(10:36):
that slavery was sanctioned by God,that it was a benefit, and
in fact, should be cherished by boththe master race and by the inferior race.
And the terms that he used are quiteoffensive to us today, but
he had no difficulty expressinghimself in this way.
(10:57):
When the Civil War came, he turned hischurchyard into an internment camp for
Union soldiers on their wayto Andersonville Prison,
which is known today forits horrific abuse.
>> Peter Robinson (11:11):
And this is, I'm trying to remember where this takes place because
they moved from state to state inthe South, this is in Virginia.
>> Christopher Cox (11:16):
This is in Georgia.
>> Peter Robinson (11:17):
Georgia, I'm sorry, Georgia.
>> Christopher Cox (11:19):
Right. >> Peter Robinson
After the Civil War and
after the Reconstruction Amendments,
which Wilson father strongly opposed.
And we know that the son did, too, becauselater on he wrote about this period
in his history of the American people.
(11:41):
He lived through it, andthen he later wrote about it, so
it's a wonderful thing fora biographer to have that insight.
Who knows what he really thought whenhe lived through these things, but
we know because he told us.
So after the Reconstruction Amendments,
Woodrow Wilson got to saythat the 15th Amendment,
which allowed black men to vote,was the ruin of the South.
(12:06):
He said similar things aboutevery aspect of Reconstruction,
including the Freedmen's Bureau,
which he thought that was encouraginglaziness among the former enslaved people.
He thought that they were owed nothing,apparently,
as a result of being instantly turnedloose on society without any training,
(12:28):
having been the chattel of their owners.
The Wilson family, and Woodrow Wilsongrew up in this environment,
had enslaved servants.
He's the last American president to havegrown up in a house with enslaved people.
So these formative years forhim caused him to believe that
(12:49):
what was called universal suffrage,at first meaning black
men can vote,ultimately meaning women can vote too.
That universal suffrage was the causeof all of the nation's problems,
and when he was a student at Princeton,
he read things that he thought were verypersuasive that made the same point.
>> Peter Robinson (13:13):
All right, I wanna jump back here to
Wilson as a sort of founder of what we
think of as the Progressive movement.
So by the time he gets to Princeton,
we wanna hit the progressive movement,women's suffrage,
(13:36):
and then come back to his attitudetoward African Americans, as President.
Wilson writes, as I recall,I'm recalling now,
he writes a senior thesis at Princeton,or what would soon be named Princeton,
in which he's very dubious aboutthe Constitution as it stood.
And says things that suggest he reallywould favor something closer to
(13:59):
the British parliamentary system,where the executive has central power
that can carry whatever vote it wantsto carry through the House of Commons.
And then he says it more elaboratelyin work that he publishes,
is it in the history ofthe American people?
In any event, there's a body of thought,by the way, we should stipulate,
this man was extremely articulate.
>> Christopher Cox (14:20):
Yes.
>> Peter Robinson (14:20):
He wrote constantly, so we have a large body of work by him, and
in all kinds of ways,it's tremendously impressive,
it is an internally consistentbody of thought, right?
>> Christopher Cox (14:31):
Got this from his father.
>> Peter Robinson (14:33):
Is that so?
>> Christopher Cox (14:33):
Yes, his father was.
>> Peter Robinson (14:34):
[CROSSTALK] >> Christopher Cox
using just the right word.
And one of the some people ask me,how do you stick with someone
whose flaws you, writing about for14 years as a biographer and
a researcher,without liking that part of them.
But I really liked the parts in which
(14:55):
Joseph Ruggles Wilsonis instructing his son.
Their correspondence back and forth and
the obvious impact that it had onWood Wilson, he was a great wordsmith.
All right, so he says in precise language,
he lays out that he's extremelydubious of democracy,
essentially, orof extending the franchise.
(15:19):
What I'm trying to do is be fair to himwithout reading back onto him what we
understand progressivism, to mean, today.
So I'm tempted to say he wasan early technocrat, is that fair?
>> Christopher Cox (15:30):
Well, I don't know. [CROSSTALK]
>> Peter Robinson (15:31):
Reading something
back into him.
>> Christopher Cox (15:32):
I don't know that technocrat quite captures it,
Wilson's views on race did notchange much throughout his life.
His views on women did change over time,but not so
much his views on race andto sort of race to the conclusion.
(15:55):
When we get to the Anthony Amendment,the reason that Wilson.
Even though he was softened on the ideathat women could be part of civic society,
the reason that he opposedthe Anthony Amendment was that it
allowed black women to vote in the South.
It would have brought federalenforcement to the South,
it would have been another 15th amendment,and he didn't like it for that reason.
(16:18):
But his views need to bejudged not by our times,
not through what historiansthink of as presentism,
but rather according to his times.
And his holding out foras long as he did against women voting,
and his segregatingthe federal government were for
(16:41):
his own time, judged by progressives.
Many progressives, not all of them,because he had many racist progressives in
his own administration, but judged bymany progressives of the time, and
certainly many progressive Republicans,and people of all political stripes.
His actions were way out there,he was an outlier.
>> Peter Robinson (17:01):
Okay.
>> Christopher Cox (17:03):
And I'm sorry, I don't want to lose the point that you mentioned
about his views on the structureof the government,
because that relatesback to Reconstruction.
>> Peter Robinson (17:13):
Okay, explain that, right.
>> Christopher Cox (17:14):
He hated what happened when this domineering Republican Congress
forced black people, black men,voting on the South.
He thought that the south should begoverned by its natural leaders,
the superior white men, andit sounds like I'm picking on him,
(17:37):
but these are his own words.
And if you think about whathe was proposing, first,
in his very brief paper that hewrote as a senior in college,
and then later on incongressional government,
what he was proposing was a systemthat would have prevented
(17:58):
the override of Andrew Johnson'svetoes of Reconstruction.
He sort of reverse engineered the problem.
Here was Andrew Johnson who wouldhave done the right thing, but
here was the Congress that got in his way,and
this Congress he described as despotic anddangerous.
So the whole purpose of revisingthe Constitution, he wanted the President
(18:21):
to be able to appoint the people whochaired the committees in the Congress.
Only members of the President's partycould introduce legislation, and on,
and on.
The reason for this was.
>> Peter Robinson (18:35):
It would have protected the old south.
>> Christopher Cox (18:36):
He lived through Reconstruction, and it really formed
a firm view in his mind thatCongress is the big problem.
>> Peter Robinson (18:46):
I see, I see, all right,
you go through incident after incident,after incident,
in which he seems to be talking out of twosides of his mouth to the suffragettes.
He seems to imply that he's with them,and then behind their backs, or
in correspondence, he underminesthe suffrage movement, he delays it.
(19:09):
So let's take just a moment to set up,[COUGH], women's suffrage as an issue.
As best I can tell it emerges as a seriouspolitical issue after the Civil War,
1880s, 1890s, butby the turn of the century.
>> Christopher Cox (19:24):
1860s.
>> Peter Robinson (19:25):
1860s, it's right up even during the Civil War.
>> Christopher Cox (19:29):
Well, during the Civil War in the sense that the women who became
leaders of the suffrage movement wereworking in war work during the Civil War,
and they were working beforethat as abolitionists.
So the connection betweenthe abolition movement and
the suffrage movement is almostcomplete in those decades.
>> Peter Robinson (19:49):
So is it fair to say that by the turn of the century,
by the Beginning of the 20th century,
women's suffrage has become such a centralissue in American politics that any
politician of any nationalstanding must declare on it.
Is that fair?
>> Christopher Cox (20:02):
Yes, at the turn of the century, that's absolutely true,
it was a tipping point by that time.
But to really put a finepoint on the 1860s,
when Congress was consideringthe 14th Amendment, it was then
that the first amendments were introducedto include women in the franchise.
(20:23):
So we have Samuel Pomeroy,Senator Pomeroy from Kansas,
introducing one amendment at the time,a proposed 14th amendment.
And then we have George Juliandoing the same thing in the House.
The 14th Amendment itself,
not these separate bills introduced bythese two men, in its first version
(20:47):
that came out of the joint committeethat was writing it included women.
>> Peter Robinson (20:52):
And so is that the correct way to think that women's suffrage
is tied in the minds of the foundersof that movement to black suffrage?
That this moment of liberation isto liberate African American men,
but also women in their minds?
Is that fair?
>> Christopher Cox (21:10):
That's not only fair, that is.
[INAUDIBLE]>> Christopher Cox: That's a really
important point because atthe Seneca Falls Convention,
now we're back to 1840s, andhere we have Frederick Douglass.
He's there at Seneca Falls, and
he's speaking in behalf ofwomen's right to vote, and
(21:31):
then he takes his newspaper andruns on the mast head constantly
a motto about not only race equality,but gender equality.
>> Peter Robinson (21:41):
Okay, so these two go very, very much together.
The light withdrawn,you've got incident after incident here
of Wilson proving less than admirable,perhaps.
Wilson claimed that as president,he was powerless to advocate for
women's voting rightsbecause he lacked the prior
(22:01):
approval of the Democratic party andits platform.
It was not his place,
Wilson insisted, to espouse anyview not expressed in the platform.
He was, he said,merely the party's spokesman.
Then Chris Cox continues to say,the transparent insincerity of Wilson's
latest excuse made clear that his actualpolicy was ever lengthening delay.
(22:24):
What does he think he's doing?
>> Christopher Cox (22:26):
Well, he thinks he's putting it off, he means to put it off,
he also means to dodge a bullet.
He doesn't wanna come straightat the problem and say,
ain't ever gonna happen as longas I'm in the White House.
This idea that.
>> Peter Robinson (22:40):
So he's being a professional politician, he's maneuvering.
>> Christopher Cox (22:43):
Yes, and I will actually give him credit, because he was
able to keep changing his story aboutwhy he opposed the Anthony Minute for
such a long period and got away with it,as a politician using that
word with all of its potentialpejorative meaning as well.
As a politician,he did more than passingly well.
(23:04):
But the transparent insincerity comesfrom the fact that he had written,
when he was writing about government,something very,
very different about whatthe role of the President is.
The President's role is not justto be the leader of his party, but
to be the leader of the country,
and the suffragists that came in to meetwith him quoted those words back to him.
(23:29):
They didn't for a moment buy what hewas saying, and he didn't either.
>> Peter Robinson (23:33):
All right, okay, so
let me give you a moment in history anda quotation.
Here's the piece of history,it's not until 1919,
this is the seventh yearof Wilson's presidency,
that Congress passes a women's suffrageamendment, and the Republicans give it
more thoroughgoing support than doWoodrow Wilson's own Democrats.
(23:55):
And as you note at the time thatthis is enacted, Wilson is now.
Not even in the country he's at the ParisPeace Conference and here's the quotation
from the light withdrawn at the millenniumthat is the turn of the 20th to the 21st
century the Gallup Organization asked theAmerican public to name the most important
event of the 20th century 66% chosequote women gaining the right to vote.
(24:19):
Ahead of landing a man on the moon andthe fall of the Soviet Union
only World War II ranked highernow here's a quotation from
the Wilson Center's GlobalWomen's Leadership Initiative.
I confess I'm not even surewhat all that means but
here's what they have on theirwebsite Wilson's voice proved
(24:41):
unequivocal in the ultimatepassing of the 19th Amendment.
Wilson spoke fondly of its passagesaying that now they're quoting Wilson,
I deem it one of the greatest honorsof my life that this great event should
have occurred during myadministration close quote.
So on an issue that Americanstoday believe one of the most
(25:02):
important in our history he'sstill seen by some as a heroic
figure what's the correct way give us onthis issue, how do we place this man?
>> Christopher Cox (25:15):
Well Wilson speaks truthfully when he says it happened
during his administrationhappened at the very bitter end.
And it happened after his partylost control of both the House and
the Senate and after he was forced byDemocrats in his own party to change his
view literally the night beforethe House of representatives by 2/3 vote
(25:35):
approved the Anthony Amendment hewas dragged across the finish line.
>> Peter Robinson (25:40):
All right, but good politician that he was,
he was happy to take credit forit when that served a purpose.
>> Christopher Cox (25:45):
Yes, and that poll that you mentioned.
>> Peter Robinson (25:47):
Yes.
>> Christopher Cox (25:49):
It really is amazing that in all of the biographies that had
been written about Woodrow Wilson, so
little attention is paid to what atthe time was the biggest domestic issue
we had World War I going on of coursein Woodrow Wilson's second term.
But even then,women's suffrage was fighting successfully
(26:13):
with World War I, with the battles andall the losses and
a million men in single battle andso on fighting for
headlines on the front page andoftentimes kick the war onto page two.
>> Peter Robinson (26:29):
I have to admit, I hadn't thought of it this way until just
now but the biographies that leaveout out his opposition to women's
suffrage have to leave it out atleast in part because they've not
done a thorough job of explaininghis formation as a child of
the south that you bringsomething to bear on the question.
(26:51):
I mean there are certain reviews you willhave been aware of this by now that,
say deeply researched meticulously writtenbut for goodness sake too much emphasis
on women's suffrage or too much emphasison Wilson's failings you've already made
the point that this is what hasn't beentreated and therefore needs correction.
>> Christopher Cox (27:12):
It's a compliment to existing biographies.
>> Peter Robinson (27:14):
All right, but at the same time unless you understand,
you cannot understand Wilson's formation,his intellectual formation and
psychological formation as a childof the old Reconstruction South.
Unless you understand well the two gotogether yes the two go together if you
don't if you say if, I'd rather not talkabout his opposition to suffer no you have
(27:38):
to understand that tounderstand him correct.
>> Christopher Cox (27:40):
I think that's right and
it's not just that he was a Southerner andthat that had an impact on him
particularly in the time that he grew upas we were discussing in Reconstruction.
But it's that the movement forwomen's voting rights was
from the first, soclosely connected with abolition and
(28:02):
with race in the final actWoodrow Wilson's opposition as
I mentioned a moment ago tothe Anthony men was based on race.
It was based on his deference tothe Jim Crow states he wanted to protect
Jim Crow And something that isnewly discussed in this book,
that has not appeared in even scholarlyarticles to my knowledge was that
(28:26):
even after his public expression ofsupport for the Anthony Amendment.
He then worked with Democraticsenators from the south to rewrite
the Anthony Amendment to protectJim Crow to get rid of that meddlesome
section two that said that the Congressshall have the power through
appropriate legislationto enforce this act.
>> Peter Robinson (28:48):
All right, so let's go right to Wilson on race and again this is
immensely frustrating because we have herehundreds of very carefully researched and
beautifully written words on WoodrowWilson and we're whipping through it.
But this is a book and this is a differentmedium we do what we can here 1902,
(29:10):
President of Princeton,Wilson publishes his History of
the American People which is nota minor work five volumes is.
>> Christopher Cox (29:19):
Although they're.
>> Peter Robinson (29:21):
They're minor volumes.
>> Christopher Cox (29:22):
They're thin volumes.
>> Peter Robinson (29:23):
[LAUGH] >> Christopher Cox
into maybe not quite this book butit's a substantial work no question.
All right, this is you in the light withdrawn writing about
Wilson's History of the American People,
Wilson scolded Republicans fortheir sentimentality.
They might believe granting civil andpolitical rights to black citizens a sound
(29:45):
policy, but it was only because theydid not appreciate the humiliation.
Quoting Wilson,
the white men of the south would sufferby being put Quoting Wilson Under
the Negro's heels a government quotingWilson sustained by the votes of
ignorant Negroes placed an intolerableburden on the white men of the South.
(30:06):
Wilson concluded it was plain to seethat the troubles again quoting Wilson
the troubles in the southern statesarose out of the exclusion of the better
whites from the electoral suffrage andthe extension of the vote.
To quoting Wilson, the most ignorantblacks, close quote well, you can see how
somebody brings that up and the princetonboard of trustees has no choice but
(30:29):
to take Woodrow Wilson's name offthe formerly Woodrow Wilson School for
International Studies Iguess this is very shocking.
>> Christopher Cox (30:39):
Yes, and the history of the American people is loaded with it
as you say there are many incidentsmany quotations in this book but
trust me,it's not the whole my editors at Simon and
Schuster said, you've made the point.
(31:00):
And, I said yes but I don't want to bethe one to make the point Woodrow Wilson
is the man who's going to speak in thisbook, not me and so it's not ever in
my voice but even slimmed down inthat way, I think it's overwhelming.
>> Peter Robinson (31:15):
It's hard to take okay so that's his thinking he is a racist he
just believes in fundamental differencesbetween people based on race.
>> Christopher Cox (31:27):
Yeah, and it's just this is pure old fashioned.
Thought experiment we can say,let's try and
remove all of the badconnotations of racism and
just understand what it isbecause Woodrow Wilson and
the people in his cabinet thathe personally selected were
happy to describe themselves aswhite supremacists these days
(31:50):
that's like nails ona chalkboard you can't whatever.
>> Peter Robinson (31:55):
Your career is over at that moment.
>> Christopher Cox (31:58):
Yeah, unless you're Adolf Hitler,
you wouldn't be talking that way.
But white supremacism was somethingthat certainly Southern progressives.
But Northern progressives,in some instances, well,
The Nation magazine wrote thatthey were happy to see that
black people would now not bepart of politics any longer.
(32:24):
So, yeah, it's troubling, but it's real.
>> Peter Robinson (32:31):
Wilson as president.
Again, the light withdrawn.
You're talking here abouta particular cabinet meeting in 1913.
This is just after Wilson takesoffice quote, quoting you.
It was, Postmaster General AlbertBurleson, [INAUDIBLE] he said,
time to introduce racial segregationnot only within his department but
in all Departments of Government.
It would be a great thing,he said, and best for the negro.
(32:54):
Wilson agreed.
Following the April 1913 cabinet meeting,
racial segregation spreadacross the federal government.
Methodically, the Wilson administrationremoved black appointees and
replaced them with white men.
A 2021 study of civil service recordsduring the Wilson administration by
the National Bureau of Economic Researchrevealed a consistent pattern of demotions
(33:17):
that enabled white supremacists inthe Democratic Party to institutionalize
segregation and relegate black Americansto low-paying, low prestige jobs.
Okay, so again,all of this is very hard to take, but
it's important to draw this distinction,which I think I grasp.
(33:38):
But I put to you, Wilson is notsimply reflecting the mores and
racial understanding of the countryas it stood at the time.
He is imposing segregation.
He is imposing racist views on a federalstructure that until that point was,
well, it wasn't perfect, buthe moves it in a racist direction.
>> Christopher Cox (34:02):
Yes. >> Peter Robinson
pressure on him from the countryat large to do this.
Is that correct?
Yes, when Boston newspaper editor William Monroe Trotter,
first black Phi Beta Kappa key holder fromHarvard, came and met with Woodrow Wilson.
>> Peter Robinson (34:21):
This is Wilson as president?
>> Christopher Cox (34:22):
Yeah, Wilson in
the White House->> Peter Robinson: Right.
To complain because he had met with Wilson when he was
a candidate, when he was still governor,he met with him in Trenton.
And Wilson gave everyimpression that he was gonna be
completely fair to the race,as he called it.
And Trotter walked out of that meeting.
(34:43):
He said he was walking on air.
So, now fast forward a littlemore than a year, and
here is Trotter in the White House saying,
not until you occupied the White Househas anything like this happened.
For 50 years, white people and
black people have been working alongsideeach other in the federal government.
(35:05):
He also recounted how Wilson'spredecessors had increasingly
appointed black men toincreasingly important positions.
And Wilson had done nothing,in fact, pulled away some of those
positions that previously blackpeople had been appointed to.
So, judging Wilson by notonly his own time, but
(35:27):
the previous half century,he was reversing course.
>> Peter Robinson (35:32):
All right, one other.
Just to draw a, all of this ishard to take, but important.
You talk about Wilson and his relationshipwith the movie Birth of a Nation,
1915 film, silent movie,and I'm quoting you here.
Birth of a Nation waspunctuated with placards or
(35:54):
title cards, it's a silent movie.
One of these quoted Wilson's Historyof the American People.
The card read, in Wilson's words, at lastthere had sprung into existence a great
Ku Klux Klan to protect the Southerncountry, Woodrow Wilson, close quote.
So, give us a moment ortwo on the significance of that movie and
(36:17):
Wilson's connection to the picture andto the director,
to what it stood for, that culturalmoment, if we may put it that way.
>> Christopher Cox (36:26):
Yeah, so the quotation comes from that the movie took from
Wilson's writings,comes from history of the American people.
>> Peter Robinson (36:36):
Right. >> Christopher Cox
it is surrounded in the historyof the American people by other
descriptions of the Klan that are very,very differential.
The clan->> Peter Robinson: This is not plucked out
of context unfairly.
>> Christopher Cox (36:50):
No, I don't think so.
>> Peter Robinson (36:50):
Right.
>> Christopher Cox (36:51):
To the contrary.
The reason that the movie was produced
the way it was is thatit is based on a book.
The book was called The Clansman.
The Clansman was a national bestseller,and
its author was Wilson's friend andclassmate from Johns Hopkins.
(37:18):
So Thomas Dixon, that was his name,came to the White House,
met with Wilson, said,I've been working with D.W.
Griffith, who, by the way,was also son of the South,
Confederate sympathies andthat sort of thing in his family.
And his view of the substance of Birthof a Nation, the record is fairly clear,
(37:41):
was the same as Dixon's andthe same as Wilson's,
although Wilson andDixon express themselves very differently.
So they're not the same person.
Dixon was advising the Presidenton Cabinet appointments and
urged him to hire Josephus Daniels,
(38:04):
who was one of the most racistpeople in the entire Wilson Cabinet.
That's saying a lot.
So as a favor to Thomas Dixon knowingfull well what the story was,
because it was this national bestseller.
It had also been a stage play on Broadway,and
it ran at the Liberty Theaterin Broadway and
(38:26):
had more people, I think a half millionpeople saw it at that one location.
More people than seen anything there ever.
And this is almost a hop, skip,and a jump from Princeton,
where Wilson undoubtedly saw it,
the movie was just as controversialas the books had been.
The books were riot breeders, the Broadwayshows more so, and the movie most of all.
(38:54):
Before it it was shown inthe White House in Los Angeles,
where it was first a premiere, the LosAngeles City Council was horrified by it.
The New York Board ofCensors was horrified by it.
There are court actions hither andyon to try and
join its showing because it was sohorribly racist.
(39:16):
And later on, after Wilson showsthis movie in the White House,
which really boosts its publicity,as you can imagine.
He claimed,when a lot of pushback finally happened,
that he really didn't knowwhat the movie was about.
But he never criticized the movie, and hewas given many opportunities to do so, and
(39:40):
people begged him to do so.
And throughout his life,he never said a bad thing about the movie.
>> Peter Robinson (39:45):
By the way, I can't resist noting that the man we once worked
for, Ronald Reagan,born in 1911, and his father,
who was not a man of any great education,but his father refused to permit,
Ronald Reagan andhis brother Moon Reagan to see that movie.
So it's not as if it was justproperly educated people who
(40:06):
understood that it was racist.
Ordinary people understood it as well.
It was controversialthroughout the country.
>> Christopher Cox (40:12):
Yes, and in the same way that Wilson's decision to segregate
the government turned the clock back, sotoo did his sponsorship of this movie and
the movie itself,because the movie normalized the Klan.
It was a big popular movie seen by manymore people than see movies today.
(40:33):
Today we have television,we have other forms of entertainment, but
that was it back then.
And people sat in movie theatersthat held 3,000 people and so on.
And they had parties inNew York with society matrons,
dressed up in clan costumes andthat sort of thing in the theaters.
(40:53):
Likewise, the ushers sometimeswould dress that way.
They sold a lot oftchotchke sorts of things.
And in Stone Mountain, Georgia,the founder of the modern Ku Klux Klan,
because, remember, the Grantadministration basically did away with it.
So it's been gone for a long time now.
It comes back timed forthe movie's opening in Georgia,
(41:17):
and so say the people who founded it.
>> Peter Robinson (41:20):
Okay, so this question.
Sorry, I want to go on to Wilson today,if that makes sense.
But one last question on Wilson andrace and
this question of following publicopinion or leading public opinion,
of advancing the clock ormoving the clock back.
Here's Frederick Douglass on Lincoln, and
(41:42):
I'd like to ask you where Wilson fits intothis, if he's simply a direct opposite.
Frederick Douglass on Lincoln and Lincoln.
Douglas was cross with Lincoln.
That's putting it mildly.
Douglas was angry with Lincoln for many,
many years because Lincoln was veryslow to move against slavery per se.
(42:02):
Lincoln's first declared war aim is topreserve the Union, and only until.
Only in 1863, does he issuethe Emancipation Proclamation.
Frederick Douglass, viewed fromthe genuine abolition ground, Mr.
Lincoln seemed tardy,cold, dull and indifferent.
But measuring him bythe sentiment of his country,
(42:24):
a sentiment he was bound asa statesman to consult, he was swift,
zealous, radical, anddetermined close quote.
Is Wilson just the other way around?
Is it as simple as that?
>> Christopher Cox (42:36):
Yeah, I have to say that because.
Because Frederick Douglass featured sostrongly in the early days of
the women's suffrage movement aswell as the abolition movement,
I really formed a greatappreciation of him.
He really is a kind of moral touchstone,isn't he?
In the research that I did,I mean, what an amazing person.
And I think he therecaptures Lincoln properly,
(43:00):
contextually, for all time.
Wilson, I think if we're notlooking at issues involving race or
gender, might fare a lotbetter using that same metric.
But we know from Wilson's own writingsthat he believed that a President
is supposed to lead public opinion.
(43:22):
He's supposed to be muscular.
The people are supposed to beputty in the leaders hands.
This is what he wrote.
And then when it comes to this issue wherethere's a great tipping point when he
arrives in Washington, remember we hadthis big suffrage parade the day before he
was sworn into his first term.
This enormous suffrage paradedown Pennsylvania Avenue.
(43:44):
So that's his moment.
And he held back the tide foralmost two terms.
>> Peter Robinson (43:51):
All right, by the way, we just have to get in this,
the final illness because of courseit's in everybody's mind today.
Wilson's health, in late 1919 hereturns from Paris to Washington.
I'm gonna quote you on this episode.
The light withdrawn.
Wilson suffered a massive stroke.
(44:12):
His left arm and leg were paralyzed.
The left side of his face drooped andhis digestive problems became acute.
He could no longer read,sit in a chair to eat or sign his name.
Edith Wilson's wife went to extraordinarylengths to conceal the President's
disability.
For over four months Wilsonremained in seclusion.
One of Wilson's aides recorded inhis diary in late January 1920 he
(44:34):
the President,he cannot know what is going on.
He sees almost nobody andhears almost no direct views.
Was there ever such a situationin our history close quote.
So of now we have the 25thamendment ratified in 1967,
which is supposed to give us, lays outquite straightforwardly the means for
(45:00):
dealing with an incapacitated president.
Are the two cases simply so different?
Wilson's debility was extreme.
Joe Biden's is thiscreeping incapacity of age.
Were the time sodifferent that there's no point?
There's nothing we can learn bycomparing the two or are there,
is there something,are there lessons to be drawn?
>> Christopher Cox (45:22):
Well there's certainly cognates of one another.
There are health issues involved in both.
What I'd say about the Wilsonpiece of that comparison is that
it's well known first of allwhat happened to him and
how badly he was affectedboth physically and mentally.
(45:44):
But you have to tack that on to hisphysical absence from the country for
six months.
Prior to that, of course he left.
>> Peter Robinson (45:53):
Because he was in France.
>> Christopher Cox (45:54):
He left on two occasions for roughly three months each.
Over six months all told,he left the United States of America, went
to Europe at a time when transatlanticcommunication was very primitive.
There was an undersea cable andwe had Morse code and you had to tap, tap,
(46:16):
tap every character and so on.
And so all of the messageswere using the perfectly
appropriate word, cryptic, very short.
It's not as if you couldsend a bill overseas and
the President could decide after readingit whether he wished to sign it or
not, orlengthy memo discussing any subject.
(46:36):
He was basically cut off from America,and he really was cut off
sometimes when he was at se,the journey took 10 days to two weeks
each way because ship to shoretelephony was in its infancy.
And radio communication was ofteneither tied up by the navigators or
disturbed by weather, what have you.
(46:59):
So literally, sometimes youjust couldn't reach him at all.
And then there's a six hour timedifference to Paris and so on.
He was paying attention only tothe League of Nations and his personal
items of interest in the peacenegotiations when he was over there and
all the domestic problemsof the United States.
We didn't have a president and Congress,
(47:22):
wasn't in session because herefused to call them into session.
After he lost control of Congress,he didn't want them.
He was making recess appointments.
He didn't have to have judges orcabinet officers or anybody,
voted on by the Senate.
He didn't want them conductingoversight of how he conducted the war.
And soCongress was shut down by the President.
(47:47):
So here we have from essentially
the end of 1918 until March.
Of 1921, I almost said 2021,
the country operating without a president.
>> Peter Robinson (48:06):
Wow, should he have resigned?
>> Christopher Cox (48:10):
Yes. >> Peter Robinson
against him?
Yes, and you didn't need the 25th amendment to know that,
there was a process.
>> Peter Robinson (48:15):
Marshall was his vice president.
Would he have been up to the job?
>> Christopher Cox (48:20):
Well, I think he was nil.
Historians would say no, but
they would have said that aboutTruman if he hadn't become president.
Sometimes people surprise us.
I think having a sentient being in.
In charge rather than someonewho is watching movies all day,
as Wilson was at the end wouldhave been a big improvement.
>> Peter Robinson (48:43):
All right,
Barton Swaim's review of the Lightwithdrawn in the Wall Street Journal.
At the core of progressivism isthe belief that most people lack
the wisdom to govern themselves andrequire a class of educated
elites to organize society accordingto a shifting set of ideals.
(49:03):
Wilson's warped ideas on race andsex weren't departures from progressivism,
but variant expressions of it,close quote.
So how much do progressives today,Bernie Sanders,
Alexandria Ocasio Cortez,owe to the example of Woodrow Wilson?
>> Christopher Cox (49:26):
Well, I hope they take as little as possible from the example of
Woodrow Wilson on items of gender andrace.
But progressivism writ large,
has in the brand ofWoodrow Wilson built in.
>> Peter Robinson (49:41):
It really does, doesn't it?
>> Christopher Cox (49:43):
Woodrow Wilson, the brand, I'm saying,
not because Woodrow Wilson was the bestexpression of progressive ideals,
but because he was Presidentof the United States and
a lot of other progressives who didn'tagree with his elitism were not.
So for better or for worse, whatprogressivism is and what it's understood
(50:07):
to be is very much influenced by WoodrowWilson's own approach to the thing.
And Woodrow Wilson wasnothing if not an elitist.
He was absolutely as Bart Swaim describesof the view that we know best and so on.
And when you look at his view of whetherblack people should be entitled to vote or
(50:29):
to participate in even normal socialarrangements in the United States,
he believed that white men were superior.
And that was as obvious to him as the sun.
So it's probably accusingprogressivism of all of
Wilson's personal sins to saythat his brand of elitism
(50:53):
is baked into the wholenotion of progressivism.
I think you and I, if we had another hour,
could come up with a long listof progressive objectives that.
That we think are worthwhile.
So unless we're being.
>> Peter Robinson (51:10):
Should they. Should.
Should, should progressivestoday Harken back,
attempt to rebrand themselvesas Teddy Roosevelt Progressives.
>> Christopher Cox (51:18):
Well, I think I never was party to the discussions when they
decided to go fromliberals to progressives.
>> Peter Robinson (51:24):
Yes, I thought it was an odd choice because they're.
>> Christopher Cox (51:28):
It's sort of intentionally picking up all this baggage.
>> Peter Robinson (51:30):
Yes. >> Christopher Cox
about progressivism andthere were bad things about it.
It's an historical thing.
There was a progressive party,there were progressive Republicans.
You can go look it up.
And why you would want to own all of itwhen you know you're trying to represent
yourself to a 21st century audience.
I'm not sure.
All right, let me return to Wilson's accomplishments.
(51:53):
He lowers tariffs,institutes the federal income tax.
I'm not too happy about that.
But it was a big thing.
He establishes a central bank, he wins theFirst World War, negotiates the Treaty of
Versailles, and again, although he failsto persuade the Senate to take us into
the League of Nations, the League servesas a model for the United Nations.
(52:13):
So the argument would bethat despite his flaws, and
he was a man of his upbringing, whichwas that of the post Civil War south,
despite his flaws, he is rightlyconsidered a great president.
>> Christopher Cox (52:31):
Well, the question of how to weigh Wilson, that's where I am.
The President of the United States,not the man necessarily, but
the eight years he had in the Oval Officein terms of his predecessors and
successors as president.
In other words, the rankings is onethat even after 14 years of research,
(52:53):
I don't feel competent to addressbecause I have a special focus in
writing this story that'sfundamentally about women's suffrage.
And on the metrics that I chose,Wilson was not successful.
He was actually taking the countryin the wrong direction,
according to the lights of peopleof his own time as well as ours.
(53:17):
But I also had trouble squaring,if you created the National Park Service,
which he did, if you got the Clayton actsigned, if you did tariff reform these
are many of these things, even creatingthe Federal Reserve are procedural things.
How do you compare that withflunking the test on human rights?
(53:38):
One is just much more morallyinfused than the other.
So it's apples and oranges.
And I can't say, well, he did these 12good things and these five bad things and
come up with an algorithm that says,therefore, you should be ranked 17th.
>> Peter Robinson (53:54):
Okay, you're refusing to rank him.
>> Christopher Cox (53:59):
This is not for lack of trying.
It's not the first time I'vebeen asked the question, but
I honestly don't havea satisfactory answer to that one.
>> Peter Robinson (54:09):
Okay, last question, Claire Booth Loose,
do you remember Mrs. Loose?
She spent her last few yearsin Ronald Reagan's Washington?
>> Christopher Cox (54:17):
I do although I did not know her personally.
>> Peter Robinson (54:19):
All right, Claire Booth Loose used to say that history
would give even the greatestfigures just one sentence.
Lincoln freed the slaves,Churchill saved Britain.
What's the sentence for Woodrow Wilson?
I'll give you two sentences, Chris.
Since we've known each other fora long time.
>> Christopher Cox (54:38):
I could be busy.
>> Peter Robinson (54:38):
All right. >> Christopher Cox
worse, he brought usinto the modern world.
All right, that is one that is wonderfully ambiguous.
Christopher Cox, author of Woodrow Wilson,the Light Withdrawn.
Thank you.
>> Christopher Cox (54:55):
Thank you.
It was great fun talking with you.
>> Peter Robinson (54:57):
For Uncommon Knowledge, the Hoover Institution, and Fox Nation,
I'm Peter Robinson.
[MUSIC]
I'm Peter Robinson of Uncommon Knowledge.
To honor the remarkable scholarshipof Thomas Sowell, renowned economist,
social theorist, public intellectual,and Hoover Senior Fellow,
we're inviting everyone inspired by hiswork to enter two national contests.
The Thomas Sowell Essay Contest isopen to high school students and
(00:21):
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Students may explore a cultural issue or
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reflect on how Thomas Sowellchanged their view of the world.
He certainly changed mine,I imagine he may have changed yours.
The second contest, the Thomas SowellVideo Contest, is open to everybody.
(00:44):
It invites short, compelling videos,up to three minutes,
that answer the question, what lesson or
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Winners of each competition will receivea $5,000 prize, along with paid travel and
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(01:08):
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All entries are due by August 31st,let me repeat that date,
that's an important one,all entries are due by August 31st.
To learn more and apply,
visit hoover.org/thomas-sowel-legacy,
(01:31):
hoover.org/thomas-sowell-legacy, thankyou.
Woodrow Wilson, our 28th president,a great man or a misogynist and bigot?
>> Christopher Cox (01:44):
Historian Christopher Cox on Uncommon Knowledge, now.
[MUSIC]
>> Peter Robinson (01:58):
Welcome to Uncommon Knowledge, I'm Peter Robinson.
A native of St.
Paul, Minnesota, Christopher Cox holds anundergraduate degree from the University
of Southern California andboth JD and MBA degrees from Harvard.
Mr. Cox's government service wasextensive, he served in the counsel's
office in the Reagan White House,where we became friends.
He represented a district in SouthernCalifornia in the House of Representatives
(02:21):
for 16 years, and he served as chairman ofthe securities and Exchange Commission.
Since leaving government in 2009, Mr.
Cox has practiced law in SouthernCalifornia and turned 14 years ago?
14 years ago, to the writing ofthe biography published late last year,
Woodrow Wilson, The Light Withdrawn.
(02:42):
John Greenleaf Whittier onDaniel Webster in an 1850 poem,
so fallen, so lost, the light withdrawn,which once he wore.
The glory from his gray hairs goneForevermore, The Light Withdrawn.
>> Christopher Cox (02:56):
The light withdrawn is.
>> Peter Robinson (02:57):
Why is that the title?
>> Christopher Cox (02:58):
It comes from a poem, John Greenleaf Whittier was
an abolitionist poet, and he was writingabout an event that shook him and
abolitionists throughout New England andreally across the country.
Which was Daniel Webster,Senator Webster, abolition champion,
letting them down, someone whomthey had put all their faith in.
(03:23):
And the question addressed andanswered in the poem is,
how do you react when a politicalfigure that you have lionized and
aggrandized and thought sohighly of breaks your heart?
And the answer, he said,is not to pile on and
not to be angry, but sad and humble and
(03:46):
recognize that everyone,they're all human,
everyone has the opportunityto fail in various ways.
>> Peter Robinson (04:00):
And most of us take the opportunity.
>> Christopher Cox (04:01):
Leaders do as well.
>> Peter Robinson (04:02):
All right. >> Christopher Cox
writing a century afterWoodrow Wilson was on the scene,
that, that kind of dispassion andempathy for him and also for
the other people who challengedhim during his career,
it was the appropriate approach.
All right,
(04:23):
let's take a moment to establishjust who Woodrow Wilson was.
Wilson's date, 1856 to 1924, he becomesa professor of what we would now
call Political Science at the Collegeof New Jersey, soon renamed Princeton,
12 years later,he's named president of Princeton.
Eight years later,he's elected governor of New Jersey,
and two years after that, in 1912, he'selected president of the United States.
(04:47):
Re-elected to a second term in 1916,meteoric rise.
>> Christopher Cox (04:52):
Absolutely.
>> Peter Robinson (04:53):
What does Wilson accomplish during his two terms as
president?
Well, here's the conventional view.
He reduces the country'sreliance on import tariffs by
introducing our first federal income tax.
He establishes the Federal Reserve System,he creates the Federal Trade Commission,
which enables the executivebranch to regulate monopolies.
(05:14):
He expands protections fororganized labor and worker safety,
he wins the First World War.
He negotiates the Treaty of Versailles,for
which he's awarded the Nobel Peace Prize.
And although he fails to bring the UnitedStates into the New League of Nations,
his design for the League servesas a model for the United nations,
which the United States does join,just over a quarter of a century later,
(05:36):
after the Second World War.
Woodrow Wilson stunningrise in politics then,
one of the most consequentialpresidencies in American history.
Christopher Cox, what the heckhave you got against this guy?
>> Christopher Cox (05:49):
Well, first of all,
as we were just discussing withJohn Greenleaf Whittier's admonition
to be humble as we approach these subjectsof people who break our hearts, the people
whose hearts were broken are all dead,as well as Woodrow Wilson is dead.
But the people in this casewho were let down were
(06:11):
not only women in America,not only Black Americans,
and the people who supported them,who were their allies.
But more generally, it was the wholecountry that paid the price for
this, and we who live decadeslater certainly see this
(06:36):
in much more stark relief than wewould have if we'd lived at the time.
And the people who were passionatelyinvested in these issues, and
there were many of them,
certainly knew better than we can now whatwas at stake and how difficult it was.
But this was a big issue thatneeds to be added to the list.
(06:57):
So the list that you itemized is prettywell known, there have been many,
many biographies of Woodrow Wilson.
If you're gonna write a new biographyabout a president who's been covered
in literally over a thousand books,you better have something new to say.
What has been left out of the standardWilson biography is his views on race and
(07:18):
his views on sex, by the way,we call it gender today, but
it was sex at the time, andit's sex in the constitution.
>> Peter Robinson (07:27):
Okay, so let's go straight to that then.
[COUGH] From The Light Withdrawn,Wilson and the suffragettes.
Quote, Wilson found teachingwomen history and politics.
And here you quote Wilson himself,about as appropriate as would be lecturing
to stonemasons on the evolutionof fashion, close quote.
Explain that remark, explain the point.
>> Christopher Cox (07:49):
Well, first of all, it's pretty straightforward,
he doesn't think that women,girls, as he often called them,
even though they were graduate students.
Students in many cases, in somecases plenty older than he was, but
he didn't believe that they had anybusiness studying the history of
government or politics.
(08:10):
Because they had no role, no civic rolein participating in democracy that way,
he had no trouble expressingthese views in private.
You started your descriptionof his political
career with Princeton,that was his third stop as.
>> Peter Robinson (08:34):
As a teacher.
>> Christopher Cox (08:35):
And he was 28 when he got his first paying job as a teacher, so
there was a lot that happenedbefore that that framed his views,
he was a child of the Civil War,he was a child of Reconstruction.
>> Peter Robinson (08:49):
He grew up in?
>> Christopher Cox (08:50):
He was born in Virginia,
grew up till teenage years in Georgia,then his family moved and
he moved with them to South Carolina,then they moved to North Carolina.
He then, as part of his schooling,went to the University of Virginia for
one year of law schoolbefore he dropped out.
(09:11):
He then three years later, went to Atlantato attempt to practice law even though
he didn't have a degree, that didn't workout either, so he quit that after a year.
So a lot of formative time in the south,but particularly,
his years of living through Reconstructionwere really important for Woodrow Wilson.
>> Peter Robinson (09:34):
Okay, let's take a moment on that, his family, tell us about
his family, the role they played in, well,where they stood during the Civil War,
and what Reconstruction meant totheir family, take a moment on that.
>> Christopher Cox (09:48):
Yeah, so Woodrow Wilson had very few friends as a child and
as a teenager, buthe was really strongly attached
to his father,he hero worshiped his father.
His father was Presbyterian Minister,went by Dr.
(10:10):
Wilson in all quarters, even thoughhe did not earn a doctorate anywhere.
He got an honorary degreewhen he was a young
man from a small collegethat nobody's ever heard of.
Dr. Wilson preached to his segregatedcongregation that slavery,
remember, we're talking aboutthe Pre-Civil War years right now,
(10:36):
that slavery was sanctioned by God,that it was a benefit, and
in fact, should be cherished by boththe master race and by the inferior race.
And the terms that he used are quiteoffensive to us today, but
he had no difficulty expressinghimself in this way.
(10:57):
When the Civil War came, he turned hischurchyard into an internment camp for
Union soldiers on their wayto Andersonville Prison,
which is known today forits horrific abuse.
>> Peter Robinson (11:11):
And this is, I'm trying to remember where this takes place because
they moved from state to state inthe South, this is in Virginia.
>> Christopher Cox (11:16):
This is in Georgia.
>> Peter Robinson (11:17):
Georgia, I'm sorry, Georgia.
>> Christopher Cox (11:19):
Right. >> Peter Robinson
After the Civil War and
after the Reconstruction Amendments,
which Wilson father strongly opposed.
And we know that the son did, too, becauselater on he wrote about this period
in his history of the American people.
(11:41):
He lived through it, andthen he later wrote about it, so
it's a wonderful thing fora biographer to have that insight.
Who knows what he really thought whenhe lived through these things, but
we know because he told us.
So after the Reconstruction Amendments,
Woodrow Wilson got to saythat the 15th Amendment,
which allowed black men to vote,was the ruin of the South.
(12:06):
He said similar things aboutevery aspect of Reconstruction,
including the Freedmen's Bureau,
which he thought that was encouraginglaziness among the former enslaved people.
He thought that they were owed nothing,apparently,
as a result of being instantly turnedloose on society without any training,
(12:28):
having been the chattel of their owners.
The Wilson family, and Woodrow Wilsongrew up in this environment,
had enslaved servants.
He's the last American president to havegrown up in a house with enslaved people.
So these formative years forhim caused him to believe that
(12:49):
what was called universal suffrage,at first meaning black
men can vote,ultimately meaning women can vote too.
That universal suffrage was the causeof all of the nation's problems,
and when he was a student at Princeton,
he read things that he thought were verypersuasive that made the same point.
>> Peter Robinson (13:13):
All right, I wanna jump back here to
Wilson as a sort of founder of what we
think of as the Progressive movement.
So by the time he gets to Princeton,
we wanna hit the progressive movement,women's suffrage,
(13:36):
and then come back to his attitudetoward African Americans, as President.
Wilson writes, as I recall,I'm recalling now,
he writes a senior thesis at Princeton,or what would soon be named Princeton,
in which he's very dubious aboutthe Constitution as it stood.
And says things that suggest he reallywould favor something closer to
(13:59):
the British parliamentary system,where the executive has central power
that can carry whatever vote it wantsto carry through the House of Commons.
And then he says it more elaboratelyin work that he publishes,
is it in the history ofthe American people?
In any event, there's a body of thought,by the way, we should stipulate,
this man was extremely articulate.
>> Christopher Cox (14:20):
Yes.
>> Peter Robinson (14:20):
He wrote constantly, so we have a large body of work by him, and
in all kinds of ways,it's tremendously impressive,
it is an internally consistentbody of thought, right?
>> Christopher Cox (14:31):
Got this from his father.
>> Peter Robinson (14:33):
Is that so?
>> Christopher Cox (14:33):
Yes, his father was.
>> Peter Robinson (14:34):
[CROSSTALK] >> Christopher Cox
using just the right word.
And one of the some people ask me,how do you stick with someone
whose flaws you, writing about for14 years as a biographer and
a researcher,without liking that part of them.
But I really liked the parts in which
(14:55):
Joseph Ruggles Wilsonis instructing his son.
Their correspondence back and forth and
the obvious impact that it had onWood Wilson, he was a great wordsmith.
All right, so he says in precise language,
he lays out that he's extremelydubious of democracy,
essentially, orof extending the franchise.
(15:19):
What I'm trying to do is be fair to himwithout reading back onto him what we
understand progressivism, to mean, today.
So I'm tempted to say he wasan early technocrat, is that fair?
>> Christopher Cox (15:30):
Well, I don't know. [CROSSTALK]
>> Peter Robinson (15:31):
Reading something
back into him.
>> Christopher Cox (15:32):
I don't know that technocrat quite captures it,
Wilson's views on race did notchange much throughout his life.
His views on women did change over time,but not so
much his views on race andto sort of race to the conclusion.
(15:55):
When we get to the Anthony Amendment,the reason that Wilson.
Even though he was softened on the ideathat women could be part of civic society,
the reason that he opposedthe Anthony Amendment was that it
allowed black women to vote in the South.
It would have brought federalenforcement to the South,
it would have been another 15th amendment,and he didn't like it for that reason.
(16:18):
But his views need to bejudged not by our times,
not through what historiansthink of as presentism,
but rather according to his times.
And his holding out foras long as he did against women voting,
and his segregatingthe federal government were for
(16:41):
his own time, judged by progressives.
Many progressives, not all of them,because he had many racist progressives in
his own administration, but judged bymany progressives of the time, and
certainly many progressive Republicans,and people of all political stripes.
His actions were way out there,he was an outlier.
>> Peter Robinson (17:01):
Okay.
>> Christopher Cox (17:03):
And I'm sorry, I don't want to lose the point that you mentioned
about his views on the structureof the government,
because that relatesback to Reconstruction.
>> Peter Robinson (17:13):
Okay, explain that, right.
>> Christopher Cox (17:14):
He hated what happened when this domineering Republican Congress
forced black people, black men,voting on the South.
He thought that the south should begoverned by its natural leaders,
the superior white men, andit sounds like I'm picking on him,
(17:37):
but these are his own words.
And if you think about whathe was proposing, first,
in his very brief paper that hewrote as a senior in college,
and then later on incongressional government,
what he was proposing was a systemthat would have prevented
(17:58):
the override of Andrew Johnson'svetoes of Reconstruction.
He sort of reverse engineered the problem.
Here was Andrew Johnson who wouldhave done the right thing, but
here was the Congress that got in his way,and
this Congress he described as despotic anddangerous.
So the whole purpose of revisingthe Constitution, he wanted the President
(18:21):
to be able to appoint the people whochaired the committees in the Congress.
Only members of the President's partycould introduce legislation, and on,
and on.
The reason for this was.
>> Peter Robinson (18:35):
It would have protected the old south.
>> Christopher Cox (18:36):
He lived through Reconstruction, and it really formed
a firm view in his mind thatCongress is the big problem.
>> Peter Robinson (18:46):
I see, I see, all right,
you go through incident after incident,after incident,
in which he seems to be talking out of twosides of his mouth to the suffragettes.
He seems to imply that he's with them,and then behind their backs, or
in correspondence, he underminesthe suffrage movement, he delays it.
(19:09):
So let's take just a moment to set up,[COUGH], women's suffrage as an issue.
As best I can tell it emerges as a seriouspolitical issue after the Civil War,
1880s, 1890s, butby the turn of the century.
>> Christopher Cox (19:24):
1860s.
>> Peter Robinson (19:25):
1860s, it's right up even during the Civil War.
>> Christopher Cox (19:29):
Well, during the Civil War in the sense that the women who became
leaders of the suffrage movement wereworking in war work during the Civil War,
and they were working beforethat as abolitionists.
So the connection betweenthe abolition movement and
the suffrage movement is almostcomplete in those decades.
>> Peter Robinson (19:49):
So is it fair to say that by the turn of the century,
by the Beginning of the 20th century,
women's suffrage has become such a centralissue in American politics that any
politician of any nationalstanding must declare on it.
Is that fair?
>> Christopher Cox (20:02):
Yes, at the turn of the century, that's absolutely true,
it was a tipping point by that time.
But to really put a finepoint on the 1860s,
when Congress was consideringthe 14th Amendment, it was then
that the first amendments were introducedto include women in the franchise.
(20:23):
So we have Samuel Pomeroy,Senator Pomeroy from Kansas,
introducing one amendment at the time,a proposed 14th amendment.
And then we have George Juliandoing the same thing in the House.
The 14th Amendment itself,
not these separate bills introduced bythese two men, in its first version
(20:47):
that came out of the joint committeethat was writing it included women.
>> Peter Robinson (20:52):
And so is that the correct way to think that women's suffrage
is tied in the minds of the foundersof that movement to black suffrage?
That this moment of liberation isto liberate African American men,
but also women in their minds?
Is that fair?
>> Christopher Cox (21:10):
That's not only fair, that is.
[INAUDIBLE]>> Christopher Cox: That's a really
important point because atthe Seneca Falls Convention,
now we're back to 1840s, andhere we have Frederick Douglass.
He's there at Seneca Falls, and
he's speaking in behalf ofwomen's right to vote, and
(21:31):
then he takes his newspaper andruns on the mast head constantly
a motto about not only race equality,but gender equality.
>> Peter Robinson (21:41):
Okay, so these two go very, very much together.
The light withdrawn,you've got incident after incident here
of Wilson proving less than admirable,perhaps.
Wilson claimed that as president,he was powerless to advocate for
women's voting rightsbecause he lacked the prior
(22:01):
approval of the Democratic party andits platform.
It was not his place,
Wilson insisted, to espouse anyview not expressed in the platform.
He was, he said,merely the party's spokesman.
Then Chris Cox continues to say,the transparent insincerity of Wilson's
latest excuse made clear that his actualpolicy was ever lengthening delay.
(22:24):
What does he think he's doing?
>> Christopher Cox (22:26):
Well, he thinks he's putting it off, he means to put it off,
he also means to dodge a bullet.
He doesn't wanna come straightat the problem and say,
ain't ever gonna happen as longas I'm in the White House.
This idea that.
>> Peter Robinson (22:40):
So he's being a professional politician, he's maneuvering.
>> Christopher Cox (22:43):
Yes, and I will actually give him credit, because he was
able to keep changing his story aboutwhy he opposed the Anthony Minute for
such a long period and got away with it,as a politician using that
word with all of its potentialpejorative meaning as well.
As a politician,he did more than passingly well.
(23:04):
But the transparent insincerity comesfrom the fact that he had written,
when he was writing about government,something very,
very different about whatthe role of the President is.
The President's role is not justto be the leader of his party, but
to be the leader of the country,
and the suffragists that came in to meetwith him quoted those words back to him.
(23:29):
They didn't for a moment buy what hewas saying, and he didn't either.
>> Peter Robinson (23:33):
All right, okay, so
let me give you a moment in history anda quotation.
Here's the piece of history,it's not until 1919,
this is the seventh yearof Wilson's presidency,
that Congress passes a women's suffrageamendment, and the Republicans give it
more thoroughgoing support than doWoodrow Wilson's own Democrats.
(23:55):
And as you note at the time thatthis is enacted, Wilson is now.
Not even in the country he's at the ParisPeace Conference and here's the quotation
from the light withdrawn at the millenniumthat is the turn of the 20th to the 21st
century the Gallup Organization asked theAmerican public to name the most important
event of the 20th century 66% chosequote women gaining the right to vote.
(24:19):
Ahead of landing a man on the moon andthe fall of the Soviet Union
only World War II ranked highernow here's a quotation from
the Wilson Center's GlobalWomen's Leadership Initiative.
I confess I'm not even surewhat all that means but
here's what they have on theirwebsite Wilson's voice proved
(24:41):
unequivocal in the ultimatepassing of the 19th Amendment.
Wilson spoke fondly of its passagesaying that now they're quoting Wilson,
I deem it one of the greatest honorsof my life that this great event should
have occurred during myadministration close quote.
So on an issue that Americanstoday believe one of the most
(25:02):
important in our history he'sstill seen by some as a heroic
figure what's the correct way give us onthis issue, how do we place this man?
>> Christopher Cox (25:15):
Well Wilson speaks truthfully when he says it happened
during his administrationhappened at the very bitter end.
And it happened after his partylost control of both the House and
the Senate and after he was forced byDemocrats in his own party to change his
view literally the night beforethe House of representatives by 2/3 vote
(25:35):
approved the Anthony Amendment hewas dragged across the finish line.
>> Peter Robinson (25:40):
All right, but good politician that he was,
he was happy to take credit forit when that served a purpose.
>> Christopher Cox (25:45):
Yes, and that poll that you mentioned.
>> Peter Robinson (25:47):
Yes.
>> Christopher Cox (25:49):
It really is amazing that in all of the biographies that had
been written about Woodrow Wilson, so
little attention is paid to what atthe time was the biggest domestic issue
we had World War I going on of coursein Woodrow Wilson's second term.
But even then,women's suffrage was fighting successfully
(26:13):
with World War I, with the battles andall the losses and
a million men in single battle andso on fighting for
headlines on the front page andoftentimes kick the war onto page two.
>> Peter Robinson (26:29):
I have to admit, I hadn't thought of it this way until just
now but the biographies that leaveout out his opposition to women's
suffrage have to leave it out atleast in part because they've not
done a thorough job of explaininghis formation as a child of
the south that you bringsomething to bear on the question.
(26:51):
I mean there are certain reviews you willhave been aware of this by now that,
say deeply researched meticulously writtenbut for goodness sake too much emphasis
on women's suffrage or too much emphasison Wilson's failings you've already made
the point that this is what hasn't beentreated and therefore needs correction.
>> Christopher Cox (27:12):
It's a compliment to existing biographies.
>> Peter Robinson (27:14):
All right, but at the same time unless you understand,
you cannot understand Wilson's formation,his intellectual formation and
psychological formation as a childof the old Reconstruction South.
Unless you understand well the two gotogether yes the two go together if you
don't if you say if, I'd rather not talkabout his opposition to suffer no you have
(27:38):
to understand that tounderstand him correct.
>> Christopher Cox (27:40):
I think that's right and
it's not just that he was a Southerner andthat that had an impact on him
particularly in the time that he grew upas we were discussing in Reconstruction.
But it's that the movement forwomen's voting rights was
from the first, soclosely connected with abolition and
(28:02):
with race in the final actWoodrow Wilson's opposition as
I mentioned a moment ago tothe Anthony men was based on race.
It was based on his deference tothe Jim Crow states he wanted to protect
Jim Crow And something that isnewly discussed in this book,
that has not appeared in even scholarlyarticles to my knowledge was that
(28:26):
even after his public expression ofsupport for the Anthony Amendment.
He then worked with Democraticsenators from the south to rewrite
the Anthony Amendment to protectJim Crow to get rid of that meddlesome
section two that said that the Congressshall have the power through
appropriate legislationto enforce this act.
>> Peter Robinson (28:48):
All right, so let's go right to Wilson on race and again this is
immensely frustrating because we have herehundreds of very carefully researched and
beautifully written words on WoodrowWilson and we're whipping through it.
But this is a book and this is a differentmedium we do what we can here 1902,
(29:10):
President of Princeton,Wilson publishes his History of
the American People which is nota minor work five volumes is.
>> Christopher Cox (29:19):
Although they're.
>> Peter Robinson (29:21):
They're minor volumes.
>> Christopher Cox (29:22):
They're thin volumes.
>> Peter Robinson (29:23):
[LAUGH] >> Christopher Cox
into maybe not quite this book butit's a substantial work no question.
All right, this is you in the light withdrawn writing about
Wilson's History of the American People,
Wilson scolded Republicans fortheir sentimentality.
They might believe granting civil andpolitical rights to black citizens a sound
(29:45):
policy, but it was only because theydid not appreciate the humiliation.
Quoting Wilson,
the white men of the south would sufferby being put Quoting Wilson Under
the Negro's heels a government quotingWilson sustained by the votes of
ignorant Negroes placed an intolerableburden on the white men of the South.
(30:06):
Wilson concluded it was plain to seethat the troubles again quoting Wilson
the troubles in the southern statesarose out of the exclusion of the better
whites from the electoral suffrage andthe extension of the vote.
To quoting Wilson, the most ignorantblacks, close quote well, you can see how
somebody brings that up and the princetonboard of trustees has no choice but
(30:29):
to take Woodrow Wilson's name offthe formerly Woodrow Wilson School for
International Studies Iguess this is very shocking.
>> Christopher Cox (30:39):
Yes, and the history of the American people is loaded with it
as you say there are many incidentsmany quotations in this book but
trust me,it's not the whole my editors at Simon and
Schuster said, you've made the point.
(31:00):
And, I said yes but I don't want to bethe one to make the point Woodrow Wilson
is the man who's going to speak in thisbook, not me and so it's not ever in
my voice but even slimmed down inthat way, I think it's overwhelming.
>> Peter Robinson (31:15):
It's hard to take okay so that's his thinking he is a racist he
just believes in fundamental differencesbetween people based on race.
>> Christopher Cox (31:27):
Yeah, and it's just this is pure old fashioned.
Thought experiment we can say,let's try and
remove all of the badconnotations of racism and
just understand what it isbecause Woodrow Wilson and
the people in his cabinet thathe personally selected were
happy to describe themselves aswhite supremacists these days
(31:50):
that's like nails ona chalkboard you can't whatever.
>> Peter Robinson (31:55):
Your career is over at that moment.
>> Christopher Cox (31:58):
Yeah, unless you're Adolf Hitler,
you wouldn't be talking that way.
But white supremacism was somethingthat certainly Southern progressives.
But Northern progressives,in some instances, well,
The Nation magazine wrote thatthey were happy to see that
black people would now not bepart of politics any longer.
(32:24):
So, yeah, it's troubling, but it's real.
>> Peter Robinson (32:31):
Wilson as president.
Again, the light withdrawn.
You're talking here abouta particular cabinet meeting in 1913.
This is just after Wilson takesoffice quote, quoting you.
It was, Postmaster General AlbertBurleson, [INAUDIBLE] he said,
time to introduce racial segregationnot only within his department but
in all Departments of Government.
It would be a great thing,he said, and best for the negro.
(32:54):
Wilson agreed.
Following the April 1913 cabinet meeting,
racial segregation spreadacross the federal government.
Methodically, the Wilson administrationremoved black appointees and
replaced them with white men.
A 2021 study of civil service recordsduring the Wilson administration by
the National Bureau of Economic Researchrevealed a consistent pattern of demotions
(33:17):
that enabled white supremacists inthe Democratic Party to institutionalize
segregation and relegate black Americansto low-paying, low prestige jobs.
Okay, so again,all of this is very hard to take, but
it's important to draw this distinction,which I think I grasp.
(33:38):
But I put to you, Wilson is notsimply reflecting the mores and
racial understanding of the countryas it stood at the time.
He is imposing segregation.
He is imposing racist views on a federalstructure that until that point was,
well, it wasn't perfect, buthe moves it in a racist direction.
>> Christopher Cox (34:02):
Yes. >> Peter Robinson
pressure on him from the countryat large to do this.
Is that correct?
Yes, when Boston newspaper editor William Monroe Trotter,
first black Phi Beta Kappa key holder fromHarvard, came and met with Woodrow Wilson.
>> Peter Robinson (34:21):
This is Wilson as president?
>> Christopher Cox (34:22):
Yeah, Wilson in
the White House->> Peter Robinson: Right.
To complain because he had met with Wilson when he was
a candidate, when he was still governor,he met with him in Trenton.
And Wilson gave everyimpression that he was gonna be
completely fair to the race,as he called it.
And Trotter walked out of that meeting.
(34:43):
He said he was walking on air.
So, now fast forward a littlemore than a year, and
here is Trotter in the White House saying,
not until you occupied the White Househas anything like this happened.
For 50 years, white people and
black people have been working alongsideeach other in the federal government.
(35:05):
He also recounted how Wilson'spredecessors had increasingly
appointed black men toincreasingly important positions.
And Wilson had done nothing,in fact, pulled away some of those
positions that previously blackpeople had been appointed to.
So, judging Wilson by notonly his own time, but
(35:27):
the previous half century,he was reversing course.
>> Peter Robinson (35:32):
All right, one other.
Just to draw a, all of this ishard to take, but important.
You talk about Wilson and his relationshipwith the movie Birth of a Nation,
1915 film, silent movie,and I'm quoting you here.
Birth of a Nation waspunctuated with placards or
(35:54):
title cards, it's a silent movie.
One of these quoted Wilson's Historyof the American People.
The card read, in Wilson's words, at lastthere had sprung into existence a great
Ku Klux Klan to protect the Southerncountry, Woodrow Wilson, close quote.
So, give us a moment ortwo on the significance of that movie and
(36:17):
Wilson's connection to the picture andto the director,
to what it stood for, that culturalmoment, if we may put it that way.
>> Christopher Cox (36:26):
Yeah, so the quotation comes from that the movie took from
Wilson's writings,comes from history of the American people.
>> Peter Robinson (36:36):
Right. >> Christopher Cox
it is surrounded in the historyof the American people by other
descriptions of the Klan that are very,very differential.
The clan->> Peter Robinson: This is not plucked out
of context unfairly.
>> Christopher Cox (36:50):
No, I don't think so.
>> Peter Robinson (36:50):
Right.
>> Christopher Cox (36:51):
To the contrary.
The reason that the movie was produced
the way it was is thatit is based on a book.
The book was called The Clansman.
The Clansman was a national bestseller,and
its author was Wilson's friend andclassmate from Johns Hopkins.
(37:18):
So Thomas Dixon, that was his name,came to the White House,
met with Wilson, said,I've been working with D.W.
Griffith, who, by the way,was also son of the South,
Confederate sympathies andthat sort of thing in his family.
And his view of the substance of Birthof a Nation, the record is fairly clear,
(37:41):
was the same as Dixon's andthe same as Wilson's,
although Wilson andDixon express themselves very differently.
So they're not the same person.
Dixon was advising the Presidenton Cabinet appointments and
urged him to hire Josephus Daniels,
(38:04):
who was one of the most racistpeople in the entire Wilson Cabinet.
That's saying a lot.
So as a favor to Thomas Dixon knowingfull well what the story was,
because it was this national bestseller.
It had also been a stage play on Broadway,and
it ran at the Liberty Theaterin Broadway and
(38:26):
had more people, I think a half millionpeople saw it at that one location.
More people than seen anything there ever.
And this is almost a hop, skip,and a jump from Princeton,
where Wilson undoubtedly saw it,
the movie was just as controversialas the books had been.
The books were riot breeders, the Broadwayshows more so, and the movie most of all.
(38:54):
Before it it was shown inthe White House in Los Angeles,
where it was first a premiere, the LosAngeles City Council was horrified by it.
The New York Board ofCensors was horrified by it.
There are court actions hither andyon to try and
join its showing because it was sohorribly racist.
(39:16):
And later on, after Wilson showsthis movie in the White House,
which really boosts its publicity,as you can imagine.
He claimed,when a lot of pushback finally happened,
that he really didn't knowwhat the movie was about.
But he never criticized the movie, and hewas given many opportunities to do so, and
(39:40):
people begged him to do so.
And throughout his life,he never said a bad thing about the movie.
>> Peter Robinson (39:45):
By the way, I can't resist noting that the man we once worked
for, Ronald Reagan,born in 1911, and his father,
who was not a man of any great education,but his father refused to permit,
Ronald Reagan andhis brother Moon Reagan to see that movie.
So it's not as if it was justproperly educated people who
(40:06):
understood that it was racist.
Ordinary people understood it as well.
It was controversialthroughout the country.
>> Christopher Cox (40:12):
Yes, and in the same way that Wilson's decision to segregate
the government turned the clock back, sotoo did his sponsorship of this movie and
the movie itself,because the movie normalized the Klan.
It was a big popular movie seen by manymore people than see movies today.
(40:33):
Today we have television,we have other forms of entertainment, but
that was it back then.
And people sat in movie theatersthat held 3,000 people and so on.
And they had parties inNew York with society matrons,
dressed up in clan costumes andthat sort of thing in the theaters.
(40:53):
Likewise, the ushers sometimeswould dress that way.
They sold a lot oftchotchke sorts of things.
And in Stone Mountain, Georgia,the founder of the modern Ku Klux Klan,
because, remember, the Grantadministration basically did away with it.
So it's been gone for a long time now.
It comes back timed forthe movie's opening in Georgia,
(41:17):
and so say the people who founded it.
>> Peter Robinson (41:20):
Okay, so this question.
Sorry, I want to go on to Wilson today,if that makes sense.
But one last question on Wilson andrace and
this question of following publicopinion or leading public opinion,
of advancing the clock ormoving the clock back.
Here's Frederick Douglass on Lincoln, and
(41:42):
I'd like to ask you where Wilson fits intothis, if he's simply a direct opposite.
Frederick Douglass on Lincoln and Lincoln.
Douglas was cross with Lincoln.
That's putting it mildly.
Douglas was angry with Lincoln for many,
many years because Lincoln was veryslow to move against slavery per se.
(42:02):
Lincoln's first declared war aim is topreserve the Union, and only until.
Only in 1863, does he issuethe Emancipation Proclamation.
Frederick Douglass, viewed fromthe genuine abolition ground, Mr.
Lincoln seemed tardy,cold, dull and indifferent.
But measuring him bythe sentiment of his country,
(42:24):
a sentiment he was bound asa statesman to consult, he was swift,
zealous, radical, anddetermined close quote.
Is Wilson just the other way around?
Is it as simple as that?
>> Christopher Cox (42:36):
Yeah, I have to say that because.
Because Frederick Douglass featured sostrongly in the early days of
the women's suffrage movement aswell as the abolition movement,
I really formed a greatappreciation of him.
He really is a kind of moral touchstone,isn't he?
In the research that I did,I mean, what an amazing person.
And I think he therecaptures Lincoln properly,
(43:00):
contextually, for all time.
Wilson, I think if we're notlooking at issues involving race or
gender, might fare a lotbetter using that same metric.
But we know from Wilson's own writingsthat he believed that a President
is supposed to lead public opinion.
(43:22):
He's supposed to be muscular.
The people are supposed to beputty in the leaders hands.
This is what he wrote.
And then when it comes to this issue wherethere's a great tipping point when he
arrives in Washington, remember we hadthis big suffrage parade the day before he
was sworn into his first term.
This enormous suffrage paradedown Pennsylvania Avenue.
(43:44):
So that's his moment.
And he held back the tide foralmost two terms.
>> Peter Robinson (43:51):
All right, by the way, we just have to get in this,
the final illness because of courseit's in everybody's mind today.
Wilson's health, in late 1919 hereturns from Paris to Washington.
I'm gonna quote you on this episode.
The light withdrawn.
Wilson suffered a massive stroke.
(44:12):
His left arm and leg were paralyzed.
The left side of his face drooped andhis digestive problems became acute.
He could no longer read,sit in a chair to eat or sign his name.
Edith Wilson's wife went to extraordinarylengths to conceal the President's
disability.
For over four months Wilsonremained in seclusion.
One of Wilson's aides recorded inhis diary in late January 1920 he
(44:34):
the President,he cannot know what is going on.
He sees almost nobody andhears almost no direct views.
Was there ever such a situationin our history close quote.
So of now we have the 25thamendment ratified in 1967,
which is supposed to give us, lays outquite straightforwardly the means for
(45:00):
dealing with an incapacitated president.
Are the two cases simply so different?
Wilson's debility was extreme.
Joe Biden's is thiscreeping incapacity of age.
Were the time sodifferent that there's no point?
There's nothing we can learn bycomparing the two or are there,
is there something,are there lessons to be drawn?
>> Christopher Cox (45:22):
Well there's certainly cognates of one another.
There are health issues involved in both.
What I'd say about the Wilsonpiece of that comparison is that
it's well known first of allwhat happened to him and
how badly he was affectedboth physically and mentally.
(45:44):
But you have to tack that on to hisphysical absence from the country for
six months.
Prior to that, of course he left.
>> Peter Robinson (45:53):
Because he was in France.
>> Christopher Cox (45:54):
He left on two occasions for roughly three months each.
Over six months all told,he left the United States of America, went
to Europe at a time when transatlanticcommunication was very primitive.
There was an undersea cable andwe had Morse code and you had to tap, tap,
(46:16):
tap every character and so on.
And so all of the messageswere using the perfectly
appropriate word, cryptic, very short.
It's not as if you couldsend a bill overseas and
the President could decide after readingit whether he wished to sign it or
not, orlengthy memo discussing any subject.
(46:36):
He was basically cut off from America,and he really was cut off
sometimes when he was at se,the journey took 10 days to two weeks
each way because ship to shoretelephony was in its infancy.
And radio communication was ofteneither tied up by the navigators or
disturbed by weather, what have you.
(46:59):
So literally, sometimes youjust couldn't reach him at all.
And then there's a six hour timedifference to Paris and so on.
He was paying attention only tothe League of Nations and his personal
items of interest in the peacenegotiations when he was over there and
all the domestic problemsof the United States.
We didn't have a president and Congress,
(47:22):
wasn't in session because herefused to call them into session.
After he lost control of Congress,he didn't want them.
He was making recess appointments.
He didn't have to have judges orcabinet officers or anybody,
voted on by the Senate.
He didn't want them conductingoversight of how he conducted the war.
And soCongress was shut down by the President.
(47:47):
So here we have from essentially
the end of 1918 until March.
Of 1921, I almost said 2021,
the country operating without a president.
>> Peter Robinson (48:06):
Wow, should he have resigned?
>> Christopher Cox (48:10):
Yes. >> Peter Robinson
against him?
Yes, and you didn't need the 25th amendment to know that,
there was a process.
>> Peter Robinson (48:15):
Marshall was his vice president.
Would he have been up to the job?
>> Christopher Cox (48:20):
Well, I think he was nil.
Historians would say no, but
they would have said that aboutTruman if he hadn't become president.
Sometimes people surprise us.
I think having a sentient being in.
In charge rather than someonewho is watching movies all day,
as Wilson was at the end wouldhave been a big improvement.
>> Peter Robinson (48:43):
All right,
Barton Swaim's review of the Lightwithdrawn in the Wall Street Journal.
At the core of progressivism isthe belief that most people lack
the wisdom to govern themselves andrequire a class of educated
elites to organize society accordingto a shifting set of ideals.
(49:03):
Wilson's warped ideas on race andsex weren't departures from progressivism,
but variant expressions of it,close quote.
So how much do progressives today,Bernie Sanders,
Alexandria Ocasio Cortez,owe to the example of Woodrow Wilson?
>> Christopher Cox (49:26):
Well, I hope they take as little as possible from the example of
Woodrow Wilson on items of gender andrace.
But progressivism writ large,
has in the brand ofWoodrow Wilson built in.
>> Peter Robinson (49:41):
It really does, doesn't it?
>> Christopher Cox (49:43):
Woodrow Wilson, the brand, I'm saying,
not because Woodrow Wilson was the bestexpression of progressive ideals,
but because he was Presidentof the United States and
a lot of other progressives who didn'tagree with his elitism were not.
So for better or for worse, whatprogressivism is and what it's understood
(50:07):
to be is very much influenced by WoodrowWilson's own approach to the thing.
And Woodrow Wilson wasnothing if not an elitist.
He was absolutely as Bart Swaim describesof the view that we know best and so on.
And when you look at his view of whetherblack people should be entitled to vote or
(50:29):
to participate in even normal socialarrangements in the United States,
he believed that white men were superior.
And that was as obvious to him as the sun.
So it's probably accusingprogressivism of all of
Wilson's personal sins to saythat his brand of elitism
(50:53):
is baked into the wholenotion of progressivism.
I think you and I, if we had another hour,
could come up with a long listof progressive objectives that.
That we think are worthwhile.
So unless we're being.
>> Peter Robinson (51:10):
Should they. Should.
Should, should progressivestoday Harken back,
attempt to rebrand themselvesas Teddy Roosevelt Progressives.
>> Christopher Cox (51:18):
Well, I think I never was party to the discussions when they
decided to go fromliberals to progressives.
>> Peter Robinson (51:24):
Yes, I thought it was an odd choice because they're.
>> Christopher Cox (51:28):
It's sort of intentionally picking up all this baggage.
>> Peter Robinson (51:30):
Yes. >> Christopher Cox
about progressivism andthere were bad things about it.
It's an historical thing.
There was a progressive party,there were progressive Republicans.
You can go look it up.
And why you would want to own all of itwhen you know you're trying to represent
yourself to a 21st century audience.
I'm not sure.
All right, let me return to Wilson's accomplishments.
(51:53):
He lowers tariffs,institutes the federal income tax.
I'm not too happy about that.
But it was a big thing.
He establishes a central bank, he wins theFirst World War, negotiates the Treaty of
Versailles, and again, although he failsto persuade the Senate to take us into
the League of Nations, the League servesas a model for the United Nations.
(52:13):
So the argument would bethat despite his flaws, and
he was a man of his upbringing, whichwas that of the post Civil War south,
despite his flaws, he is rightlyconsidered a great president.
>> Christopher Cox (52:31):
Well, the question of how to weigh Wilson, that's where I am.
The President of the United States,not the man necessarily, but
the eight years he had in the Oval Officein terms of his predecessors and
successors as president.
In other words, the rankings is onethat even after 14 years of research,
(52:53):
I don't feel competent to addressbecause I have a special focus in
writing this story that'sfundamentally about women's suffrage.
And on the metrics that I chose,Wilson was not successful.
He was actually taking the countryin the wrong direction,
according to the lights of peopleof his own time as well as ours.
(53:17):
But I also had trouble squaring,if you created the National Park Service,
which he did, if you got the Clayton actsigned, if you did tariff reform these
are many of these things, even creatingthe Federal Reserve are procedural things.
How do you compare that withflunking the test on human rights?
(53:38):
One is just much more morallyinfused than the other.
So it's apples and oranges.
And I can't say, well, he did these 12good things and these five bad things and
come up with an algorithm that says,therefore, you should be ranked 17th.
>> Peter Robinson (53:54):
Okay, you're refusing to rank him.
>> Christopher Cox (53:59):
This is not for lack of trying.
It's not the first time I'vebeen asked the question, but
I honestly don't havea satisfactory answer to that one.
>> Peter Robinson (54:09):
Okay, last question, Claire Booth Loose,
do you remember Mrs. Loose?
She spent her last few yearsin Ronald Reagan's Washington?
>> Christopher Cox (54:17):
I do although I did not know her personally.
>> Peter Robinson (54:19):
All right, Claire Booth Loose used to say that history
would give even the greatestfigures just one sentence.
Lincoln freed the slaves,Churchill saved Britain.
What's the sentence for Woodrow Wilson?
I'll give you two sentences, Chris.
Since we've known each other fora long time.
>> Christopher Cox (54:38):
I could be busy.
>> Peter Robinson (54:38):
All right. >> Christopher Cox
worse, he brought usinto the modern world.
All right, that is one that is wonderfully ambiguous.
Christopher Cox, author of Woodrow Wilson,the Light Withdrawn.
Thank you.
>> Christopher Cox (54:55):
Thank you.
It was great fun talking with you.
>> Peter Robinson (54:57):
For Uncommon Knowledge, the Hoover Institution, and Fox Nation,
I'm Peter Robinson.
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