February 4, 2025 • 54 mins
How do you start to make change happen with people when you'd rather call them out or cancel them altogether? Are calling out or cancelling ever effective? And...is there a different way to actually make change happen (that minimizes the chances of burning out or losing your mind in the process)?
Today on the WANTcast we are talking to LEGENDARY human rights activist Loretta J. Ross, author of the new book CALLING IN: How To Start Making Change With Those You'd Rather Cancel. In this groundbreaking conversation, we'll talk about:
- The 5-C continuum of Calling In, Calling Out, Calling On, Cancelling, and Calling it Off
- How to do better "threat assesments"
- Loretta's pivotal moment and first "calling in" experience with people who seemed the most unlikely to want to change
- How to turn potential conflict into conversation
and more!!
**CW: this conversation contains mention of rape
**Want to read along? Check the "transcript" option in your podcast player!
BIO:
Loretta J. Ross is an activist, professor, and public intellectual. In her five decades in the human rights movement, she’s deprogramed white supremacists, taught convicted rapists the principles of feminism, and organized the second-largest march on Washington (surpassed only by the 2017 Women’s March). A cofounder of the National Center for Human Rights Education and the SisterSong Women of Color Reproductive Justice Collective, her many accolades and honors include a 2022 MacArthur Fellowship and a 2024 induction into the National Women’s Hall of Fame. Today, Ross is an associate professor at Smith College in Northampton, Massachusetts, and a partner with 14th Strategies Consultants, with which she runs “Calling In” training sessions at organizations around the country.
Loretta has co-written three books on reproductive justice: Undivided Rights: Women of Color Organize for Reproductive Justice in 2004; Reproductive Justice: An Introduction in March 2017; and Radical Reproductive Justice: Foundations, Theory, Practice, Critique in October 2017. Her newest book, Calling In: How to Start Making Change with Those You'd Rather Cancel is available TODAY, wherever books are sold.
~
SHOW NOTES:
Calling In courses + education
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Buy your copy of WANT YOUR SELF here
(Reading WYS for the new year in your book club? Email me at katie@womenagainstnegativetalk.com and let me know!
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Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Katie (00:00):
Welcome back to the wantcast, the women against negative talk
podcast lessons in moving forward,fearlessly and spreading the good word.
I'm Katie Horwitch.
I'm a writer, a speaker, a mindset coach.
The founder of want women against negativetalk and the author of Want Your Self,
shift your self talk and unearth thestrength in who you were all along.
(00:22):
I am so happy.
You're here.
Let's begin.
If you're anything like me in these lastfew weeks and months, you might be asking
yourself, it feels like we fought so hard.
Where do we go from here?
How do we move forward?
How do we engage in amindful and productive?
(00:43):
And proactive way.
And how do we not only do that,but not completely lose our
minds or burnout as we do it.
So if you're like me and you've beenasking yourself those questions,
today's conversation will provide youwith some action steps, some insight.
Some energy.
(01:04):
And hopefully some hope.
Today on the want cast, we havethe immense honor and privilege of
spending the next hour with a trueicon in the human rights movement.
Loretta J Ross.
Loretta Ross is an activist professorand public intellectual in her five
decades in the human rights movement.
(01:25):
She's deprogrammed white supremaciststaught convicted rapist, the principles of
feminism and organize the second largestMarch on Washington surpassed only by
the 2017 women's March, a co-founderof the national center for human rights
education and the sister song women ofcolor reproductive justice collective.
(01:47):
Her many accolades and honorsinclude a 2022 MacArthur fellowship
and a 2020 for induction into thenational women's hall of fame.
Today loretta is an associate professorat Smith college in Massachusetts,
and a partner with 14th strategiesconsultants with which she runs
calling in training sessions atorganizations around the country.
Her newest book CALLING IN (02:11):
how to start making change with those
you'd rather cancel, is availabletoday wherever books are sold.
Calling In is at the same time,a handbook, a manifesto, and a
memoir with stories from fiveremarkable decades in activism.
Loretta vividly illustrates why callingpeople in, which means inviting them
(02:36):
into conversation instead of conflict,by focusing on your shared values
instead of a desire for punishment.
Is the more strategic choice.
If you want to make real change.
And in this book, she shows you how to doso whether in the workplace on a college
campus or in your living room, this is aframework that anyone can learn and use
(02:57):
to transform frustrating and divisiveconflicts that stand in the way of real
connection with the people in your life.
A heads up on this conversation.
We do mention some sensitivesubjects in this conversation,
specifically mention of rape.
So, if you need to come backto this episode later, We are
holding your heart and promise.
(03:17):
We will be here for you.
We also encountered a few sound issues.
But this conversation is so important.
There is no way that we are lettingtechnology stand in the way.
So I am uploading the transcript.
To this interview to the podcast platform.
(03:37):
So wherever you're listening,there is a transcript available.
If you're not able to findit, you can send me an email,
katie@womenagainstnegativetalk.comand I would be more than
happy to share it with you.
I could not be more grateful to get tolearn from Loretta and her work with you.
So let's begin.
(03:59):
We have a wealth of treasures and gemsahead of us in this conversation, but I
want to come back to what you literallyjust said before I pressed record.
And you said that living into your moralcenter and living out that courage,
you used a word you said, it's so fun.
And I love that so much because Ithink a lot of people, when they
(04:22):
think about staying true to theirvalues, staying with an integrity,
being courageous, being bold, I don'tknow if fun is the first word that
comes to mind for people, you know?
So I would love to hear youtalk a little bit about what
you find so, so fun about that.
Loretta J Ross (04:42):
Well, calling in, is always about living up to
your best opinion of yourself.
And when we hit thatsweet spot, it is fun.
It is as good as you feel about yourselfwhen the cashier gives you too much
change in your corrector and give it back.
You feel good about yourselfbecause you did it the right thing.
(05:03):
Even though you could have easilytaken advantage of the situation.
Calling in, is always aboutburnishing up your integrity.
Making sure that you're intentionalabout how you show up in the world.
And delighting in your resilienceand ability to do that.
To me, that's fun.
(05:26):
Because I do understand thepain of disappointing myself.
Of taking advantage of somebodyand not feeling good about
myself after I've done it.
I understand that pain all too well.
And so when I can intentionallydo something that makes me feel
good about being Loretta Ross,That's the best that life offers.
Katie (05:50):
Yeah.
You are filling your own cup of yourself.
It's like, I think it was Oprah said, I,I want to stay full of myself because when
I am full, I get so full, I'm overflowing.
And it's only when I'm overflowing,can I give to other people.
Right?
Loretta J Ross (06:06):
Exactly.
Because the greatest gift youcan give is to call yourself
in and be in alignment withh
your integrity, with your compassion,with your ability to take everyone's
suffering seriously as you took yourown, but not flatten people out to
(06:27):
stereotypes or labels, but really delightin the complexity of humanity and how
fun it is to find that the people youexpected the least of, you actually
can find very surprising depths to themand delight in how much fun it is to
look at how beautiful people can be,even in the midst of some awful stuff.
(06:53):
Victor Frankl, who's a Holocaust survivorthat I quote in my book, spoke about
how the people who kept hope in thoseconcentration camps, the people who never
lost purpose and meaning were the oneswho were most likely to survive, and
that is a very important message to me.
(07:15):
This is InternationalHolocaust Remembrance Day.
Katie (07:19):
I, it, I mean, it's so ironic, right?
That so much is going on right now in theworld, but in our country in particular.
And it was just MLK Day,Holocaust Remembrance Day.
That's about to be Black History Month.
Then it's going to beWomen's History Month.
Like, there's all of these remindersthat we do get over and over of humanity.
Loretta J Ross (07:42):
And it's very important right now.
And so I like thinking about howwonderful people can be in the
face of incalculable suffering.
It's not that I ever expectedto have a smooth and easy life.
I was never afforded that opportunity,but I liked the fact that I'd
(08:04):
never let it go to my heart.
I like the fact that I always Ibelieved in the goodness of humanity
when I was too scared to believe inmy own goodness, my own strength.
And so I love offering those hard wonexperiences to other people who may
(08:27):
feel hopeless or despairing or not goodenough or think they don't know enough.
Because I felt and continueto feel all those things.
But I kind of like the fact that Idon't let none of that hold me back.
Most times.
I'm not perfect, but Most times.
(08:48):
I can figure out how I canbecome a better Loretta.
And, I mean, I think it wasFranklin Roosevelt who said, "Smooth
seas don't make a good sailor."
It's the turbulence of my life.
That makes me stronger.
And I know there's a lot of questionover the word resilient, because we
(09:10):
can be proud that we have that innerstrength and trying to overcome odds
and also be pissed off that we have to.
Katie (09:18):
Right.
And sometimes the most resilient people,those are the people who need the most
care, who need the most restoration,who need the most community around them,
because it's exhausting to be resilient.
Loretta J Ross (09:30):
Yeah.
But at the same time, it's so rewarding.
Because I'm old enough to have constantmemory of the people who didn't make it.
Because all that happened to them madethem become addicted to drugs or alcohol
or I'm able to take care of their friendsand their families, or even to have people
(09:53):
in their lives that cared about them.
I'm really happy that my gift fromthe universe was to have this dream.
I mean, I would have rather not beenhomeless, but I'm glad that I'm not
attached to possessions right now thatI know I can survive it and still be me
(10:16):
and not have my opinion of myself loweredbecause I don't own a lot of things.
I mean, these are the lessons thatliving a challenging life gifts us with.
Katie (10:28):
I think what is most inspiring and, dare I say, empowering is not just
the things that you've been through,but how you've moved through them.
I mean, even as you were talking aboutyour outlook on resilience and joy and
being able to look back and see the peoplewho haven't made it and who aren't in the
(10:50):
position that maybe you're in right now.
Can you pinpoint a specific instancewhere you started to develop that
sort of outlook or do you think itwas something you were born with?
Sort of like if you had a turning point inyour story, where would you say that was?
Loretta J Ross (11:08):
I don't actually know where it came from, but
I do know my mother was smartenough to observe it in me.
I'm one of eight kids, number six,pretty much an invisible child growing
up, because I was the little girl,number six, very studious, didn't
really stand out in any particular way.
But when my mother put me onthat Greyhound bus to send me
(11:31):
to college at sixteen, she saidsomething really profound to me.
She said that she admired me becauseI don't let success go to my head.
Which I kind of like, "oh Ma, yeah,right, I read the same Readers
Digest you read, yeah, right."
She says, "shut up, Loretta",cause she knew my mouth.
She said, "you don't let success go toyour head, but most importantly, you
(11:53):
never let failure go to your heart."
And my mother called it.
I had no idea what she meant at age 16.
I still thought my mother was being, youknow, apologetic because I couldn't catch
a plane to go from Texas to Washington, D.
C.
I had to catch a bus, youknow, that kind of thing.
(12:13):
But she really had peeped my resilience.
And that was the highestpraise that she could give me.
And it took me decades to realizehow wonderfully my mother read me.
And probably read all of hereight kids in some particular way.
(12:33):
But that was a gift that she offered me.
I have no idea where it comes from.
It could come from therootedness in my family.
I mean, I'm lucky enough to have beena Black, part of a Black family, who
knows our genealogy back to 1844,where we were slaves on a peanut
(12:54):
plantation outside of Selma, Alabama.
And we moved to Texasright after the Civil War.
And many of my family still live on thatfarmland in Central Texas to this day.
So I'm proud of coming from thatsharecropper history, that peasant
history, first gen college historyand it's given me a sense of security
(13:20):
and safety that I don't think alot of Black families got to enjoy.
Because if they could recount going backtwo generations, they're doing good.
And the fact that my son and otherrelatives do that genealogical research
to take us back to 1844 gives me a senseof security at my place in the universe.
(13:47):
that maybe a lot of otherBlack families don't enjoy.
That's the advantage I have.
I call that a privilegeto know your roots.
Katie (13:56):
It's the quote of being your ancestor's wildest dreams.
I, I'm forgetting whoexactly said that now.
You probably know it.
Loretta J Ross (14:03):
Ooh, I don't, but I've heard it before.
Katie (14:06):
I feel like you are, the quotes in this book, because I'm a quote
person, the quotes in this book, Iwas like, she is a quote Rolodex.
Like, these are, theseare some bangers here.
But, you know, being, beingyour ancestor's wildest dreams.
When you're able to flesh outthat story for yourself of where
you've come from, there's a senseof, oh, they went somewhere,
(14:28):
and now I'm going somewhere too.
Like, the line keeps going, you know?
Loretta J Ross (14:32):
Well, the thing that I tell young people that I teach at
Smith College, particularly young Blackpeople, they're exhausted by the need
to continue to fight white supremacy.
They're pained that they stillhave to conduct that fight.
And I understand that pain.
(14:52):
But I also remind them that theyhave the privilege to say to white
people, things that would havegotten their grandmothers lynched.
And so, you can choose not to havethose hard conversations with the
racially challenged or raciallyilliterate, but don't deny that it's
(15:12):
a privilege to be able to do so.
Katie (15:15):
Mm.
Loretta J Ross (15:16):
And there's this old civil rights saying
that I did quote in the book.
It says stop imagining thatyou're the entire chain of
freedom because you're not.
The chain of freedom stretches backtowards your ancestors and stretches
forward towards your descendants.
And your only job is to make surethat chain doesn't break at your link.
(15:40):
So don't give into despairor hopelessness or cynicism.
Understand that you always havechoices on whether or not you're
going to stroke the link or weaken it.
But you always have that choice.
Katie (15:56):
Yeah.
Even the imagery, if you think of a chainand it is a bunch of links together.
We're recording this conversation inJanuary of 2025 and the way that our
society is, the way that social mediais, I mean, you are a professor and
you're with young people all of the time.
(16:17):
It can be very easy to think thateverything sort of begins and ends
with you and not in a high andmighty egocentric way, almost in
a scary egocentric way, you know?
Loretta J Ross (16:32):
Yeah, that's what a lot of young Black people feel.
They're trying to deal withthe burden of Blackness.
And not that being Black is bad,but we live in a white supremacist
society in which just having a Blackidentity is seen as an existential
threat by certain white people ofa different, of a certain mindset.
(16:56):
Now obviously not all white peopleare white supremacists and sadly not
all white supremacists are white.
And we do know those we wouldn't inviteto the picnic and it can feel burdensome.
and overwhelming about always having tocalibrate how threatened you are by people
(17:18):
who see your mere existence as a threat.
So that's where we get the Karens andthe Proud boys and the FBI claiming that
the Black Lives Matter movement is a exlike extremist terrorist group, but they
can't seem find the white terrorist.
And then Trump is out pardoning the whiteterrorists that we see with our own eyes.
(17:42):
And so it can feel very overwhelming,particularly as a young person.
I became an activist when I was 16.
And so I remember those feelings ofthinking that I kind of knew it all
and understood how the world worked.
And thank God people didn't giveup on insufferable me back then.
Because I really was obnoxiousand I'm just lucky to be around
(18:07):
because people saw something inme that they wanted to nurture.
Even as I made them mad, and I'm justhere to pay it forward and pass it on.
Katie (18:20):
At the very beginning of your book, you talk about a story
about going into a prison when youwere pretty young, like relatively
speaking, early on in your journey.
Can you talk a little bit about that?
Loretta J Ross (18:35):
Yeah.
I was the newly minted director of theDC Rape Crisis Center, which was the
first rape crisis in early country.
And this was 1979, and we got a letterat the center from a man named William
Fuller, who was incarcerated for rapingand murdering a Black woman just like me.
(18:57):
And basically his lettersaid, Outside I rape women.
Inside I rape men, I'd like not to bea rapist anymore, and will you help me?
When I first got thatletter, I was pissed off.
We don't have enough resourcesto help victims, how dare a
perpetrator call us for help?
(19:20):
And I think I reflected thefeelings of the staff and volunteers
at the center at the time.
And I really wanted to write him myown letter of outrage and call him
out for even daring to ask for help.
But I buried the letter underneaththe paperwork on my desk for a while,
(19:41):
and I couldn't put it out of my mind.
And so, eventually I wrote him back.
Just trying to find out more whathe wanted, and it turns out that he
wanted us to teach him about Blackfeminism, about religion, about Black
history, and all of those things.
And so eventually I agreed to go down toLorton, which was the prison outside of D.
(20:03):
C., to meet with him, but I actually stillthink I went down there to curse him out.
I just said, well, I can't get at the manwho wrote me, so I'm going to get at him
for everything that's happened to him,he deserved it anyway because he raped
and murdered a Black woman just like me.
And so I went down there, and I wasscared because I didn't have any plan.
(20:26):
And like I said, I'm in my mid twenties.
I don't have any formaltraining for none of this.
All I know is I'm a rapesurvivor, and I want to stop
Black men from raping Black women.
That's all I knew.
And fortunately,, he didn'teven stop at my confusion.
As a matter of fact, it wasn'tjust that one guy I met.
He had assembled six Black men, whoare all convicted of raping women.
(20:52):
And when they started telling theirstories about how they had become
violators, Somehow, I was able to tellmy story about what happened to me.
And the deeper that I went into theirstories, the deeper I went into my story.
And somehow in the middle of thatconversation, I was like, Oh, okay,
(21:15):
we're all victimized violators.
We've had somebody mess with us.
And out of that pain and hurt,we mess with other people.
. That whole victim, perpetrator,binary was eased a little bit.
It wasn't totally gone, butit was eased a little bit.
And so for the next three years, Itaught Black history and Black feminism
(21:39):
to these incarcerated men who weretrying to reclaim their humanity.
Who, they were the prison's Predators.
As a matter of fact, when I first walkedinto the room, they were so big and buff
they looked like pro wrestlers, right?
And it took me years later to realize,That they were the prison's predators.
(22:02):
They had buffed up their bodies to keepfrom being the victims because because
many of them had entered Lorton asteenagers themselves, children themselves.
But they were in their 30s by the timeI'm meeting them, serving you know,
ten, fifteen years into their sentences.
And so they looked at themselvesand decided I was a victim, now
(22:26):
I'm a violator, and I don't wantto be any of those things anymore.
And it was so powerful for me torealize that they had recaptured their
own humanity long before they met me.
The fact that they wanted torecapture their humanity, that's
why they wrote that letter to me.
(22:46):
So that was my first callingin experience because the first
person I had to call in was myself.
Katie (22:51):
whew.
Loretta J Ross (22:52):
And not stereotype these incarcerated men as disposable
human beings that I shouldnot offer any compassion to.
And they were my nightmares.
And it was my first experience at goingto meeting where I'm trying to help.
People who represented my nightmare.
Katie (23:12):
Yeah, that story just was, it was incredible.
Thank you so much for sharing it.
For people who are not familiar withthis term, can you define calling in?
for people versus what peopleprobably know, they probably
know calling out and canceling.
But you talk about actually a wholeecosystem of C's beyond those two.
Loretta J Ross (23:36):
You know, when I first started studying the phenomenon called
calling out culture, I realized thatthere was a continuum, that we're all
familiar with calling people out, whichis publicly shaming people for something
we think they've done wrong, for whichwe want to hold them accountable.
But we also go a step further,and want to cancel somebody.
(24:00):
That means we don't everwant to hear from you again.
In other words, we're going tohurt your reputation or at least
cost you your job or your platform.
Now, calling in is actuallyan accountability process too.
But instead of using the angered blamingor shaming of the call out culture
(24:21):
or the cancel culture, We're usinglove and respect as our strategies.
And so, really, a call in, isa call out, but it's done with
love instead, instead of anger.
Because you still want tohold people accountable for
something they've done wrong.
(24:42):
But instead of saying, I can't believeyou said that, we should cancel you.
But it's more like," it's aninteresting perspective that you have.
Do you mind if we talk more about that?
" So it's an invitation into a conversation,instead of an invitation into a fight.
Now, sometimes you don't want tomake the investment of your time and
(25:05):
attention into someone else's world.
And that's when Sonya Renee Taylorcreated the concept of calling on.
That's when you just want peopleto do better when you really
want them to talk to the hand.
It's like, "I don't know what'sgoing on with you right now, all
I want to know is (25:24):
Are you okay?
Because right now you're showing methat you ain't okay, you need to get
out of my face with that stuff, Idon't know why you thought that racist
sexist whatever joke would land wellon me, but you need to check yourself."
And I don't think, particularly onsocial media, we use the fifth C
(25:45):
enough and that's calling it off.
We have no obligation to engage inunproductive conversations with people who
are trolling us, lying to us, gaslightingus, and that's in person or online.
We don't have an obligation to wasteour time with people like that.
(26:07):
But I think our egos make us thinkthat we can just make them change if
we just find the right magic words.
And that's on the ego's talking.
Katie (26:17):
Yeah.
Loretta J Ross (26:18):
You know, you can't even change the person that most
loves you with magic words, much lessstrangers on the internet or in person.
And so I created the 5C continuum, callingout, cancel, calling in, calling on, and
calling it off as a way of recognizing thepatterns of our conflicts and interaction.
(26:43):
And once you recognize thepatterns, then you can choose the
response to that pattern that mostemotionally suits you at the time.
Cause you have no obligationto do any of those things.
You can always call it off.
But if you choose to want to pursueaccountability, you have a lot of
options instead of just gettinginto this blow-out fight, calling
(27:08):
people names, accusing them of beingcaricatures and things like that.
And you'll find that the more you callingyourself in to call others in, the
much better you'll feel about yourself.
So when the person at the driver'slicense bureau gets on with last nerve,
instead of having a blowout with themabout how they're treating you, why
(27:31):
not see how difficult that job mustbe for her and call yourself in and
offer grace, humor, compassion, andyou will feel so much better about
yourself than if you just let loose.
Katie (27:47):
Yeah.
And it sounds like you canactually accomplish or, or
take steps to accomplish.
what it truly is that you want toaccomplish instead of making that reactive
response of the ego of the moment.
I love that it's a continuum too because alot of people think that they either call
someone out or they don't say anythingand then they'll feel guilty about not
(28:11):
saying anything because they should havehelped, they should have done something
and then they're worried that someoneelse is going to call them out for not
saying something so it can be this verydestructive loop, but with this continuum
gives people choice and also it soundslike you can choose many in sequence.
(28:31):
So maybe you call someone in and thenyou're like, I'm calling it off, right?
Loretta J Ross (28:36):
Exactly.
The point that I like withlearning calling in practice is
that they're not niceness lessons.
You're not giving people apass on injustice . You are
in control of how you show up.
I love the fact that we can always saywhat we mean and mean what we say, but
(28:56):
we don't have to say it mean, that's achoice, and never pretend that it's not.
Katie (29:02):
What do you say to people who might push back and say, well, they had their
chance, and you know, I want to tell themwhat's up, there's no more playing nice.
What do you say to people who Push backif you've ever gotten pushed back on the
idea of calling in or maybe those other Coptions besides calling out and canceling
(29:24):
that help them recognize that this is animportant part of this change ecosystem.
Loretta J Ross (29:28):
Oh, in my book, I talk about the appropriate uses of call outs.
Well, it's not like I'm takingit off the table as a tactic that
never should be used when peopleare abusing that power or others.
When they've had opportunities tochange and they've chosen not to, when
they're at risk of causing real harmto real people, of course, we have to
(29:51):
still have call outs in our arsenal.
But the point is that we shouldreserve it for very limited occasions,
like one of those Break Glass InCase Of Fire moments, not really use
and overuse it for people with whomwe have conflicts, disagreements.
(30:12):
There's so many other ways to createnot only productive conversation,
but my ultimate goal is to builda strong human rights movement.
And I have to honestly say, I didmy book as a political project.
I am actually not that interested inpeople as, you know, I'm an introvert.
(30:32):
I get mad when people call me becausethat takes my head out of my books.
It's not that I'm trying to Kumbayawith a whole lot of humanity.
But I do believe that as a humanrights movement, if we do not learn
how to be More effective and strongertogether, we will be susceptible
(30:54):
to the divisiveness of fascism.
And we're in this political momentwhere predominant people in our society
are telling everybody to hate eachother, who doesn't agree with them.
And we gotta get rid of our inner Trumps.
You know, we can't just go aroundpracticing these cutthroat politics
(31:18):
on each other and then expecting thatwe're going to be able to build the
power to stop human rights violationsthat are palpably happening right now.
They're already roundingup vulnerable immigrants.
They're already dehumanizing trans people.
Attacking all the civil rightsand the women's rights we've
(31:39):
fought prayed and died for.
And so, I believe that the people we'reopposing, those who are opposed to
human rights, only have two advantages.
Lies and violence.
That's all they got going for them.
And they have to lie to theirfollowers and intimidate the
rest of us with violence.
(32:00):
But I'm like, well lookwhat we got on our side.
We've got the truth.
We've got history.
We've got history.
If you think like you can make usforget the whole 19th and 20th century
happened and you're just going towish it away because it's inconvenient
history for you, we got the evidence.
We got the receipts of whoyou are and who we are.
(32:23):
And best of all, we got time.
Because these people arean endangered species.
You want to talk aboutthe use of that term?
White supremacy is on its last legs.
Cause even the young whitepeople don't want it to continue.
Look at how they voted.
And so we got their kids withour music, with our cool, and
(32:46):
we got them at the ballot box.
So they are demographically doomed.
And my biggest fear is that despiteholding a winning hand with truth,
time, evidence, and history on ourside, we'll blow it with the call out
culture (33:02):
by turning on each other and cannibalizing each other with our attempt
to be politically pure, while we areremarkably ineffective in building power.
Katie (33:15):
Mm.
How does someone orient themselvestoward calling in and bringing people
in and that winning hand when theirimpulse is to call someone out because
it's in the air that they're breathing?
It's in the ecosystem.
Like, how do you build a muscle ofcalling in when it can seem easier
(33:37):
or more psychologically and ego shortterm satisfying to call someone out?
Loretta J Ross (33:44):
Well, I don't have a formula for everybody, but
I do know that my first call outresponse was triggered by my trauma.
I'm a call out queen, by the way, Ilove telling people off, so it's not
like I'm some saint trying to telleverybody else how to be a saint.
No, I love telling people off, but I findthat that impulse is my trauma response.
(34:07):
It's when I put myself on pause.
And give myself a chance tothink about what I really want
the effect of my words to be.
That I actually say things thatreinforce my compassion and my integrity.
And so I try to swallowthat first response.
To give my emotional intelligenceand my integrity intelligence a
(34:32):
chance to catch up to my mouth.
And then, I say the second thing.
And if you've ever parentedchildren, you got that instinctively.
Cause if you blurt out the first thingthat comes to your head, when your
children are getting on their lastnerve, they'll be in therapy for life.
So we know a lot of swallow.
(34:52):
That first response will neverbe compassionate, caring parents.
And it can work for all aspectsof our lives to not be trauma
driven, but be trauma informed.
Understand how you need to work onyourself so that trauma is not driving
(35:12):
your relationships with other people.
Because it is true,hurt people hurt people.
And if you are not attendingto the soul wounds that you've
experienced, then all you're gonnado is bleed all over everybody.
Whether you're trying to call themin, call them out, or even just try to
establish a good relationship with them.
(35:35):
I mean, a lot of traumatized peoplecan't even establish great love
relationships because the traumashows up in all those relationships.
And so it's really important tolearn that we're always going to
be more than what happened to us.
And it's a choice to stay in that victimspace or to move to that survivor space,
(36:01):
and overcome what happened to you.
Katie (36:03):
You mentioning anyone who has parented children or been around
children, practically speaking, itsounds like calling in and the practice
and the muscle of calling in on a very,very like day to day level could be
saying, Well, what would I say to thisperson if they were a four year old?
If they were my four year oldnephew, what would I say to them?
Loretta J Ross (36:26):
That's a good way of framing it.
Another way I'd put it was that youtreat people as if they're holding
their heart in your hand and youdon't want to squeeze it too tight.
Because if someone was holding theirheart, would you let them squeeze
it with their power, with theirindifference, with their trauma?
No, you wouldn't want somebodyto treat your heart like that.
(36:50):
And so learn the practice of actinglike we'll have the power to not squeeze
somebody's heart and make them go, ouch.
Katie (36:59):
Something that I've heard from a lot of people who listen to this podcast
because they want to do this work sobadly and they're like, "but these people
make me so mad and they piss me off somuch and how could they think that way?"
Something that you mentioned thatI think is freaking brilliant and
(37:19):
has already changed my life is youdescribe the difference between someone
who can't be changed and someonewho is three versions of an ally.
So I think you say a provenpotential and a problematic ally.
Can you talk a little bit about that?
Loretta J Ross (37:37):
Yeah.
I find that a lot of the callout culture is because people
don't do good threat assessments.
Now, they have trouble distinguishingbetween people who are outright enemies,
who are opposed to human rights, whoare opposed to justice and fairness and
compassion, - and everybody else who'sjust muddling along through life, right?
(38:01):
And I get this a lot when peoplewant to use words like "performative"
when the describer of what theythink are inadequate social justice
responses or work by other people.
Like if a white person puts up a BlackLives Matter sign or a straight person
hangs a rainbow flag or whatever,I try to get them to do a better
(38:25):
threat assessment and say, okay, weknow we've got fascists out here.
We know we have people who benefit andprofit from hate and it's impossible to
get someone to understand justice if theirwhole economic model depends on injustice.
But for the rest of the people,you've got your proven allies, the
(38:47):
people you can ride and die with.
Because you've beenthrough stuff together.
You know who those are.
And then you've got your problematicallies, people with whom you agree
on a lot of stuff, but they mayfocus on climate change while
you focus on women's rights.
They may be racially challenged orracially under-developed so they don't
know how to stop saying "you people"or "colored people" or whatever.
(39:12):
But you'll never agree on most thingsbecause they were problematic allies.
then you've got then larger setof people, as was proven in the
Black Lives Matter protests of2020, are your potential allies.
There were 11, 000 demonstrations in2020, most led by white people, by the
(39:34):
way, and most of them were displayingBlack Lives Matter signs, or some kind of
indication, like right after the election,the blue bracelet people, for example.
And I'm saying, you already knowthe number one thing we need to know
about all those potential allies.
And you know what that is?
They not in the Ku Klux Klan,cause no Klansman has ever put up
(39:58):
a Black Lives Matter sign, and noTrump supporter ever wore a blue
bracelet, and put up a rainbow flag.
So your job is to sophisticate youranalysis so that you can figure
out the strategy to work withpotential, proven, And problematic
allies, because the most importantthread is that they're all allies.
(40:20):
You cannot define them as enemiesbecause you're incompetent
at doing a threat assessment.
Katie (40:27):
Oh, that's so good.
And that almost makes it like,okay, there's potential here.
There's opportunity.
Let's find the potential.
Let's find the opportunity.
Like, how do we maximize thismoment and this conversation?
Loretta J Ross (40:43):
And we do it with kindness and accepting that other people
are gonna be as complicated as you.
So there's gonna be things that they'restrong on and weak on and there's things
that you're strong on and weak on.
People ask me all the time why Idon't throw around the word racist.
Well I say because the way I see thewhite people that I have to analyze and
(41:07):
or work with or call out, is that I tendto reserve that word for the people who
are intentional about their bigotry.
And there are a plethoraof them to talk about.
I got that.
But most of them are either raciallychallenged or racially illiterate.
And I'm not going to have a negativeconversation with them no more
(41:29):
than I would criticize someonewho comes to the United States and
can't speak the English I prefer.
I don't need to use my power as away of dissing people who have been
intentionally made to be ignorant.
Look at this attack on knowledge andevidence of truth that we're dealing with.
(41:51):
We're living in a country ofwhite people who were not only
not taught a correct history ofwhat's true of how the world works.
But were rewarded fortheir ignorance, right?
Well, if somebody was paying youan advantage for being ignorant,
you'd turn a blind eye to it, too.
That's just human.
And so I take the lot of fun fromsaying very painful things to
(42:18):
white people with love, you know?
Most of them that listen are willingto learn as little as long as I don't
shame and blame them in the process.
Make it appear like it's theirfault that they don't know.
I don't make it their fault they don'tunderstand how to dissect patriarchy.
I only talk about them beingresponsible for it lets them know
(42:40):
that they're enmeshed in that culture.
Katie (42:43):
Is there a way, and I know every single person is different, but in your
vision of how in an ideal world thiswould work, how do you get where it
feels like, okay, I'm making some change?
Loretta J Ross (42:57):
First of all, it starts with your expectations of them.
Don't think you're gonna again, findthose magic words that immediately
causes somebody to re-evaluate theirlife, their choices, their lived
experiences, and suddenly give you thechange that you hope that they see..
It ain't gonna happen that way.
From my perspective, I'm always gonnabe proud that I made the chance for 'em.
(43:21):
I gave them the room to grow withouttaking responsibility for their inability
to take advantage of the opportunity.
But Generally, it's a cumulative effect.
The first time you call somebody in,it may not change anything, but as we
create this calling in culture, otherpeople are going to say that, you
(43:44):
know, "I think you're a good person.
I love the compassion you have.
So why is there this weirdarea that you talk badly about
strangers you don't even know?
I mean, what's going on with you?
Can I help you?
Can I, can we talk about the goodpart of you that I admire and the
(44:05):
troubling part that I'm trying tofigure out why you want to be that way?"
I mean, it was kind of like mosthuman beings don't wanna walk
around consciously hurting people.
So the question is why would you want to?
What's going on in her soul thatmakes you indifferent to the
suffering that you're causing?
(44:27):
That's really the most importantquestion we can ask each other.
And so, you're constantly goingto be offered chances to offer
people grace, forgiveness,respect, and their human rights.
And you can't think youfailed simply because of their
inability to grow in the moment.
I mean, I got a hard head.
(44:48):
Some things have to be said to memany times before I got it, and we're
all kind of like that because wedon't like to be told what to think.
We don't like somebody to assumethat we don't know something
or that we're incapable oflearning and growing and stuff.
So that first feeling when wetry to call somebody in and out,
it's actually going to be shame.
(45:10):
They're going to feel shame.
They're going to feel likethey've been put on the spot.
They're going to feel like they'vebeen accused of not knowing
enough or not being enough.
So calibrate your response to that.
That's the normal human condition.
And so they're not bad people forfeeling like every human being would
feel under those circumstances.
Katie (45:31):
Right.
Right.
They're feeling like humans feelbecause they're humans, not robots.
And thank goodness, because that meansthat there is opportunity there force
shifting because of their humanity,
Loretta J Ross (45:43):
but you have to assure them that you believe in them, that
you take their suffering seriously,that you recognize that their lived
experiences got them to do certain thingsthat really were lived experiences,
got you to do certain things.
They're strangely enough, theirexperiences are as valid as yours.
And so, keeping that complexity inmind, you offer people grace and space.
(46:10):
So, just like we all know thatit's not politically correct
anymore to say the word [censored].
Well, what happened when thefirst time we used that word and
somebody called us out for using it?
They could have shamed us and punishedus for using it, or they could
have given us the space to grow.
(46:31):
for learning, oh, now we say differentlyabled, or neurodivergent, or any other
number of words that don't dehumanizepeople with different abilities.
So we all have opportunitiesto learn and grow.
And if we can always keep in mind,like Malcolm X says, when we didn't
(46:51):
know something that we'll alwayshave grace for others who maybe
don't know what we think we know.
Katie (46:59):
This has been such an incredible conversation and I know it's going to be
so, so nourishing and so energizing for somany people who are listening right now.
So as we're wrapping up and we're wrappingup in January of 2025 with everything
that's going on in January 2025.
(47:20):
What can you say to people who arelistening, who are feeling scared
and their hope is dwindling andthey're also holding the duality of
feeling hope and feeling energizedand feeling that sort of vision?
What is something that you wouldlove to say to those people?
Loretta J Ross (47:40):
Well, this may sound like a commercial, but I would urge
them to Use my name to get to mywebsite and join calling in classes.
We've got another one starting in Marchand it's hundreds of people learning
the techniques of how to showcasetheir integrity by practicing calling
(48:01):
in with their friends, their families,their communities, their fellow
students, their co workers, all of this.
As so, I would urge people to joinour $5 classes because it's only $5.
The cheapest consciousness raisingyou'll ever find on the internet.
So that's what I would say, thatwe're building a human rights
(48:21):
movement with human rights as ourgoal and calling in as our practices.
Cause I believe that calling inis going to be as important to the
human rights movement in the 21stcentury as non violence was to the
civil rights movement in the 20th.
A statement of our compassionand how we care for even those
(48:44):
we would call our enemies.
Katie (48:47):
As we're wrapping up, there are three questions that I ask people.
Before we sign off, there'sno correct way to answer it.
The right way is your way.
The first question is, positivityis defined differently by everybody.
So how do you define positivity?
Loretta J Ross (49:07):
I define positivity as a necessary ingredient in believing
in your ability to change and grow.
Because if you've given up, onbelieving you can change and grow.
Then you're not going to be verypositive about yourself or the future.
So it's very important to have thatgrowth mindset, not that fixed mindset.
(49:34):
Where you actually do believethat at any age you can learn
something new and you can grow.
And that to me is positivity.
Positivity is also making sure thatthe fingerprint you leave on other
people is one of love and not hate.
That's also positivity for me.
Katie (49:53):
I love that.
All right.
Second question is, when do youfeel the most like yourself?
Loretta J Ross (50:03):
Oh, I feel the most like myself when I'm doing my hard partying.
I was told as a teenager that Ineeded to party as hard as I work.
Now, obviously in my seventies,I'm not going to the nightclubs
or anything like that, because Idon't have a Peter Pan complex.
I play competitive Pinochle with myoctogenarian friends, and we compete
(50:28):
in tournaments around the country.
And you know, we're all our walkersand our canes and our wheelchairs.
We are having so much delight in beingwith each other and still being alive
to share this camaraderie and know thatno matter what we've been through in
life, we can manage to have exquisite funtogether and compassion for each other.
(50:52):
I mean, we read as funeral programsas we do Hamilton playbills.
You know, we are living out loud 'tilthe end of our lives and I love that.
Katie (51:04):
Oh, I love that so much.
I like want to catapult myself intothe future and live out that life.
Okay.
The last question.
I define fearlessness as not feelingthe fear and doing it anyway, but
when the fear you have of a situation,thing, whatever it is, is less than
(51:26):
the faith you have in yourself.
So an equation fearless is whenyou fear is less than the faith.
Given that definition, LorettaRoss, what makes you feel fearless?
Loretta J Ross (51:38):
What has made me feel fearless is the certain
knowledge that I've handledeverything that's been thrown my way.
I mean, at 11 years old,I was kidnapped and raped.
I had a child through incest.
I got shot at threeyears old in Mississippi.
Even as an adult, my picturehas appeared in Klan newspapers.
(52:03):
And so I've had to decide at manypoints of my life that I wasn't going
to let what happened to me determinewho Loretta Ross would become.
And I have to honestly say,I'm scared all the time.
I don't think courageis the absence of fear.
Courage is doing the right thing.
And so I don't try to getpeople to not be afraid.
(52:25):
Like, I haven't achieved that myself.
I have achieved a determination to makesure that the Loretta who shows up.
It's the one that shows hervulnerability and strength.
That is not something to be ashamed of.
Katie (52:43):
I am just so, so deeply grateful for you and your work
and I cannot thank you enough.
This book and your work is right ontime and is going to move mountains this
year, in this moment and way beyond.
~That was Loretta Ross.
If you would like to learn more aboutLoretta's incredible life-changing
(53:07):
work, sign up for a calling in course,get her book or dig into any of the
numerous resources that she provides.
You can head on over to the shownotes where all of the links are
or head over to women againstnegative talk.com to find them there.
If you liked this episode, make surethat you are subscribed where ever you
(53:30):
listen to podcasts, iTunes, Spotify, Iheart radio we're in all of the places.
Make sure that you're subscribed.
And that you review the podcast,telling people why they should be
listening and join our community.
The best thing that you can do as alistener to help us grow is to share an
episode with a friend, share an episodethat you love that has helped you.
(53:54):
And maybe it can support them.
I also wanted to mention that we willbe hosting a giveaway for Loretta's
book calling in over on social media.
So you can follow me on Instagram atKatie Horwitch, and you can find me on
sub stack at women against negative talk.
That wraps it up for today.
Thank you so much for spending the lasthour or so with me and with Loretta.
(54:17):
I know your time is valuable and I amjust so grateful that you choose to
spend it here with us on the wantcastas always move forward, fearlessly,
spread the good word and be theyou, you know, you're meant to be.
I'll see you in two weeks.
Take care.
Bye bye.
Welcome back to the wantcast, the women against negative talk
podcast lessons in moving forward,fearlessly and spreading the good word.
I'm Katie Horwitch.
I'm a writer, a speaker, a mindset coach.
The founder of want women against negativetalk and the author of Want Your Self,
shift your self talk and unearth thestrength in who you were all along.
(00:22):
I am so happy.
You're here.
Let's begin.
If you're anything like me in these lastfew weeks and months, you might be asking
yourself, it feels like we fought so hard.
Where do we go from here?
How do we move forward?
How do we engage in amindful and productive?
(00:43):
And proactive way.
And how do we not only do that,but not completely lose our
minds or burnout as we do it.
So if you're like me and you've beenasking yourself those questions,
today's conversation will provide youwith some action steps, some insight.
Some energy.
(01:04):
And hopefully some hope.
Today on the want cast, we havethe immense honor and privilege of
spending the next hour with a trueicon in the human rights movement.
Loretta J Ross.
Loretta Ross is an activist professorand public intellectual in her five
decades in the human rights movement.
(01:25):
She's deprogrammed white supremaciststaught convicted rapist, the principles of
feminism and organize the second largestMarch on Washington surpassed only by
the 2017 women's March, a co-founderof the national center for human rights
education and the sister song women ofcolor reproductive justice collective.
(01:47):
Her many accolades and honorsinclude a 2022 MacArthur fellowship
and a 2020 for induction into thenational women's hall of fame.
Today loretta is an associate professorat Smith college in Massachusetts,
and a partner with 14th strategiesconsultants with which she runs
calling in training sessions atorganizations around the country.
Her newest book CALLING IN (02:11):
how to start making change with those
you'd rather cancel, is availabletoday wherever books are sold.
Calling In is at the same time,a handbook, a manifesto, and a
memoir with stories from fiveremarkable decades in activism.
Loretta vividly illustrates why callingpeople in, which means inviting them
(02:36):
into conversation instead of conflict,by focusing on your shared values
instead of a desire for punishment.
Is the more strategic choice.
If you want to make real change.
And in this book, she shows you how to doso whether in the workplace on a college
campus or in your living room, this is aframework that anyone can learn and use
(02:57):
to transform frustrating and divisiveconflicts that stand in the way of real
connection with the people in your life.
A heads up on this conversation.
We do mention some sensitivesubjects in this conversation,
specifically mention of rape.
So, if you need to come backto this episode later, We are
holding your heart and promise.
(03:17):
We will be here for you.
We also encountered a few sound issues.
But this conversation is so important.
There is no way that we are lettingtechnology stand in the way.
So I am uploading the transcript.
To this interview to the podcast platform.
(03:37):
So wherever you're listening,there is a transcript available.
If you're not able to findit, you can send me an email,
katie@womenagainstnegativetalk.comand I would be more than
happy to share it with you.
I could not be more grateful to get tolearn from Loretta and her work with you.
So let's begin.
(03:59):
We have a wealth of treasures and gemsahead of us in this conversation, but I
want to come back to what you literallyjust said before I pressed record.
And you said that living into your moralcenter and living out that courage,
you used a word you said, it's so fun.
And I love that so much because Ithink a lot of people, when they
(04:22):
think about staying true to theirvalues, staying with an integrity,
being courageous, being bold, I don'tknow if fun is the first word that
comes to mind for people, you know?
So I would love to hear youtalk a little bit about what
you find so, so fun about that.
Loretta J Ross (04:42):
Well, calling in, is always about living up to
your best opinion of yourself.
And when we hit thatsweet spot, it is fun.
It is as good as you feel about yourselfwhen the cashier gives you too much
change in your corrector and give it back.
You feel good about yourselfbecause you did it the right thing.
(05:03):
Even though you could have easilytaken advantage of the situation.
Calling in, is always aboutburnishing up your integrity.
Making sure that you're intentionalabout how you show up in the world.
And delighting in your resilienceand ability to do that.
To me, that's fun.
(05:26):
Because I do understand thepain of disappointing myself.
Of taking advantage of somebodyand not feeling good about
myself after I've done it.
I understand that pain all too well.
And so when I can intentionallydo something that makes me feel
good about being Loretta Ross,That's the best that life offers.
Katie (05:50):
Yeah.
You are filling your own cup of yourself.
It's like, I think it was Oprah said, I,I want to stay full of myself because when
I am full, I get so full, I'm overflowing.
And it's only when I'm overflowing,can I give to other people.
Right?
Loretta J Ross (06:06):
Exactly.
Because the greatest gift youcan give is to call yourself
in and be in alignment withh
your integrity, with your compassion,with your ability to take everyone's
suffering seriously as you took yourown, but not flatten people out to
(06:27):
stereotypes or labels, but really delightin the complexity of humanity and how
fun it is to find that the people youexpected the least of, you actually
can find very surprising depths to themand delight in how much fun it is to
look at how beautiful people can be,even in the midst of some awful stuff.
(06:53):
Victor Frankl, who's a Holocaust survivorthat I quote in my book, spoke about
how the people who kept hope in thoseconcentration camps, the people who never
lost purpose and meaning were the oneswho were most likely to survive, and
that is a very important message to me.
(07:15):
This is InternationalHolocaust Remembrance Day.
Katie (07:19):
I, it, I mean, it's so ironic, right?
That so much is going on right now in theworld, but in our country in particular.
And it was just MLK Day,Holocaust Remembrance Day.
That's about to be Black History Month.
Then it's going to beWomen's History Month.
Like, there's all of these remindersthat we do get over and over of humanity.
Loretta J Ross (07:42):
And it's very important right now.
And so I like thinking about howwonderful people can be in the
face of incalculable suffering.
It's not that I ever expectedto have a smooth and easy life.
I was never afforded that opportunity,but I liked the fact that I'd
(08:04):
never let it go to my heart.
I like the fact that I always Ibelieved in the goodness of humanity
when I was too scared to believe inmy own goodness, my own strength.
And so I love offering those hard wonexperiences to other people who may
(08:27):
feel hopeless or despairing or not goodenough or think they don't know enough.
Because I felt and continueto feel all those things.
But I kind of like the fact that Idon't let none of that hold me back.
Most times.
I'm not perfect, but Most times.
(08:48):
I can figure out how I canbecome a better Loretta.
And, I mean, I think it wasFranklin Roosevelt who said, "Smooth
seas don't make a good sailor."
It's the turbulence of my life.
That makes me stronger.
And I know there's a lot of questionover the word resilient, because we
(09:10):
can be proud that we have that innerstrength and trying to overcome odds
and also be pissed off that we have to.
Katie (09:18):
Right.
And sometimes the most resilient people,those are the people who need the most
care, who need the most restoration,who need the most community around them,
because it's exhausting to be resilient.
Loretta J Ross (09:30):
Yeah.
But at the same time, it's so rewarding.
Because I'm old enough to have constantmemory of the people who didn't make it.
Because all that happened to them madethem become addicted to drugs or alcohol
or I'm able to take care of their friendsand their families, or even to have people
(09:53):
in their lives that cared about them.
I'm really happy that my gift fromthe universe was to have this dream.
I mean, I would have rather not beenhomeless, but I'm glad that I'm not
attached to possessions right now thatI know I can survive it and still be me
(10:16):
and not have my opinion of myself loweredbecause I don't own a lot of things.
I mean, these are the lessons thatliving a challenging life gifts us with.
Katie (10:28):
I think what is most inspiring and, dare I say, empowering is not just
the things that you've been through,but how you've moved through them.
I mean, even as you were talking aboutyour outlook on resilience and joy and
being able to look back and see the peoplewho haven't made it and who aren't in the
(10:50):
position that maybe you're in right now.
Can you pinpoint a specific instancewhere you started to develop that
sort of outlook or do you think itwas something you were born with?
Sort of like if you had a turning point inyour story, where would you say that was?
Loretta J Ross (11:08):
I don't actually know where it came from, but
I do know my mother was smartenough to observe it in me.
I'm one of eight kids, number six,pretty much an invisible child growing
up, because I was the little girl,number six, very studious, didn't
really stand out in any particular way.
But when my mother put me onthat Greyhound bus to send me
(11:31):
to college at sixteen, she saidsomething really profound to me.
She said that she admired me becauseI don't let success go to my head.
Which I kind of like, "oh Ma, yeah,right, I read the same Readers
Digest you read, yeah, right."
She says, "shut up, Loretta",cause she knew my mouth.
She said, "you don't let success go toyour head, but most importantly, you
(11:53):
never let failure go to your heart."
And my mother called it.
I had no idea what she meant at age 16.
I still thought my mother was being, youknow, apologetic because I couldn't catch
a plane to go from Texas to Washington, D.
C.
I had to catch a bus, youknow, that kind of thing.
(12:13):
But she really had peeped my resilience.
And that was the highestpraise that she could give me.
And it took me decades to realizehow wonderfully my mother read me.
And probably read all of hereight kids in some particular way.
(12:33):
But that was a gift that she offered me.
I have no idea where it comes from.
It could come from therootedness in my family.
I mean, I'm lucky enough to have beena Black, part of a Black family, who
knows our genealogy back to 1844,where we were slaves on a peanut
(12:54):
plantation outside of Selma, Alabama.
And we moved to Texasright after the Civil War.
And many of my family still live on thatfarmland in Central Texas to this day.
So I'm proud of coming from thatsharecropper history, that peasant
history, first gen college historyand it's given me a sense of security
(13:20):
and safety that I don't think alot of Black families got to enjoy.
Because if they could recount going backtwo generations, they're doing good.
And the fact that my son and otherrelatives do that genealogical research
to take us back to 1844 gives me a senseof security at my place in the universe.
(13:47):
that maybe a lot of otherBlack families don't enjoy.
That's the advantage I have.
I call that a privilegeto know your roots.
Katie (13:56):
It's the quote of being your ancestor's wildest dreams.
I, I'm forgetting whoexactly said that now.
You probably know it.
Loretta J Ross (14:03):
Ooh, I don't, but I've heard it before.
Katie (14:06):
I feel like you are, the quotes in this book, because I'm a quote
person, the quotes in this book, Iwas like, she is a quote Rolodex.
Like, these are, theseare some bangers here.
But, you know, being, beingyour ancestor's wildest dreams.
When you're able to flesh outthat story for yourself of where
you've come from, there's a senseof, oh, they went somewhere,
(14:28):
and now I'm going somewhere too.
Like, the line keeps going, you know?
Loretta J Ross (14:32):
Well, the thing that I tell young people that I teach at
Smith College, particularly young Blackpeople, they're exhausted by the need
to continue to fight white supremacy.
They're pained that they stillhave to conduct that fight.
And I understand that pain.
(14:52):
But I also remind them that theyhave the privilege to say to white
people, things that would havegotten their grandmothers lynched.
And so, you can choose not to havethose hard conversations with the
racially challenged or raciallyilliterate, but don't deny that it's
(15:12):
a privilege to be able to do so.
Katie (15:15):
Mm.
Loretta J Ross (15:16):
And there's this old civil rights saying
that I did quote in the book.
It says stop imagining thatyou're the entire chain of
freedom because you're not.
The chain of freedom stretches backtowards your ancestors and stretches
forward towards your descendants.
And your only job is to make surethat chain doesn't break at your link.
(15:40):
So don't give into despairor hopelessness or cynicism.
Understand that you always havechoices on whether or not you're
going to stroke the link or weaken it.
But you always have that choice.
Katie (15:56):
Yeah.
Even the imagery, if you think of a chainand it is a bunch of links together.
We're recording this conversation inJanuary of 2025 and the way that our
society is, the way that social mediais, I mean, you are a professor and
you're with young people all of the time.
(16:17):
It can be very easy to think thateverything sort of begins and ends
with you and not in a high andmighty egocentric way, almost in
a scary egocentric way, you know?
Loretta J Ross (16:32):
Yeah, that's what a lot of young Black people feel.
They're trying to deal withthe burden of Blackness.
And not that being Black is bad,but we live in a white supremacist
society in which just having a Blackidentity is seen as an existential
threat by certain white people ofa different, of a certain mindset.
(16:56):
Now obviously not all white peopleare white supremacists and sadly not
all white supremacists are white.
And we do know those we wouldn't inviteto the picnic and it can feel burdensome.
and overwhelming about always having tocalibrate how threatened you are by people
(17:18):
who see your mere existence as a threat.
So that's where we get the Karens andthe Proud boys and the FBI claiming that
the Black Lives Matter movement is a exlike extremist terrorist group, but they
can't seem find the white terrorist.
And then Trump is out pardoning the whiteterrorists that we see with our own eyes.
(17:42):
And so it can feel very overwhelming,particularly as a young person.
I became an activist when I was 16.
And so I remember those feelings ofthinking that I kind of knew it all
and understood how the world worked.
And thank God people didn't giveup on insufferable me back then.
Because I really was obnoxiousand I'm just lucky to be around
(18:07):
because people saw something inme that they wanted to nurture.
Even as I made them mad, and I'm justhere to pay it forward and pass it on.
Katie (18:20):
At the very beginning of your book, you talk about a story
about going into a prison when youwere pretty young, like relatively
speaking, early on in your journey.
Can you talk a little bit about that?
Loretta J Ross (18:35):
Yeah.
I was the newly minted director of theDC Rape Crisis Center, which was the
first rape crisis in early country.
And this was 1979, and we got a letterat the center from a man named William
Fuller, who was incarcerated for rapingand murdering a Black woman just like me.
(18:57):
And basically his lettersaid, Outside I rape women.
Inside I rape men, I'd like not to bea rapist anymore, and will you help me?
When I first got thatletter, I was pissed off.
We don't have enough resourcesto help victims, how dare a
perpetrator call us for help?
(19:20):
And I think I reflected thefeelings of the staff and volunteers
at the center at the time.
And I really wanted to write him myown letter of outrage and call him
out for even daring to ask for help.
But I buried the letter underneaththe paperwork on my desk for a while,
(19:41):
and I couldn't put it out of my mind.
And so, eventually I wrote him back.
Just trying to find out more whathe wanted, and it turns out that he
wanted us to teach him about Blackfeminism, about religion, about Black
history, and all of those things.
And so eventually I agreed to go down toLorton, which was the prison outside of D.
(20:03):
C., to meet with him, but I actually stillthink I went down there to curse him out.
I just said, well, I can't get at the manwho wrote me, so I'm going to get at him
for everything that's happened to him,he deserved it anyway because he raped
and murdered a Black woman just like me.
And so I went down there, and I wasscared because I didn't have any plan.
(20:26):
And like I said, I'm in my mid twenties.
I don't have any formaltraining for none of this.
All I know is I'm a rapesurvivor, and I want to stop
Black men from raping Black women.
That's all I knew.
And fortunately,, he didn'teven stop at my confusion.
As a matter of fact, it wasn'tjust that one guy I met.
He had assembled six Black men, whoare all convicted of raping women.
(20:52):
And when they started telling theirstories about how they had become
violators, Somehow, I was able to tellmy story about what happened to me.
And the deeper that I went into theirstories, the deeper I went into my story.
And somehow in the middle of thatconversation, I was like, Oh, okay,
(21:15):
we're all victimized violators.
We've had somebody mess with us.
And out of that pain and hurt,we mess with other people.
. That whole victim, perpetrator,binary was eased a little bit.
It wasn't totally gone, butit was eased a little bit.
And so for the next three years, Itaught Black history and Black feminism
(21:39):
to these incarcerated men who weretrying to reclaim their humanity.
Who, they were the prison's Predators.
As a matter of fact, when I first walkedinto the room, they were so big and buff
they looked like pro wrestlers, right?
And it took me years later to realize,That they were the prison's predators.
(22:02):
They had buffed up their bodies to keepfrom being the victims because because
many of them had entered Lorton asteenagers themselves, children themselves.
But they were in their 30s by the timeI'm meeting them, serving you know,
ten, fifteen years into their sentences.
And so they looked at themselvesand decided I was a victim, now
(22:26):
I'm a violator, and I don't wantto be any of those things anymore.
And it was so powerful for me torealize that they had recaptured their
own humanity long before they met me.
The fact that they wanted torecapture their humanity, that's
why they wrote that letter to me.
(22:46):
So that was my first callingin experience because the first
person I had to call in was myself.
Katie (22:51):
whew.
Loretta J Ross (22:52):
And not stereotype these incarcerated men as disposable
human beings that I shouldnot offer any compassion to.
And they were my nightmares.
And it was my first experience at goingto meeting where I'm trying to help.
People who represented my nightmare.
Katie (23:12):
Yeah, that story just was, it was incredible.
Thank you so much for sharing it.
For people who are not familiar withthis term, can you define calling in?
for people versus what peopleprobably know, they probably
know calling out and canceling.
But you talk about actually a wholeecosystem of C's beyond those two.
Loretta J Ross (23:36):
You know, when I first started studying the phenomenon called
calling out culture, I realized thatthere was a continuum, that we're all
familiar with calling people out, whichis publicly shaming people for something
we think they've done wrong, for whichwe want to hold them accountable.
But we also go a step further,and want to cancel somebody.
(24:00):
That means we don't everwant to hear from you again.
In other words, we're going tohurt your reputation or at least
cost you your job or your platform.
Now, calling in is actuallyan accountability process too.
But instead of using the angered blamingor shaming of the call out culture
(24:21):
or the cancel culture, We're usinglove and respect as our strategies.
And so, really, a call in, isa call out, but it's done with
love instead, instead of anger.
Because you still want tohold people accountable for
something they've done wrong.
(24:42):
But instead of saying, I can't believeyou said that, we should cancel you.
But it's more like," it's aninteresting perspective that you have.
Do you mind if we talk more about that?
" So it's an invitation into a conversation,instead of an invitation into a fight.
Now, sometimes you don't want tomake the investment of your time and
(25:05):
attention into someone else's world.
And that's when Sonya Renee Taylorcreated the concept of calling on.
That's when you just want peopleto do better when you really
want them to talk to the hand.
It's like, "I don't know what'sgoing on with you right now, all
I want to know is (25:24):
Are you okay?
Because right now you're showing methat you ain't okay, you need to get
out of my face with that stuff, Idon't know why you thought that racist
sexist whatever joke would land wellon me, but you need to check yourself."
And I don't think, particularly onsocial media, we use the fifth C
(25:45):
enough and that's calling it off.
We have no obligation to engage inunproductive conversations with people who
are trolling us, lying to us, gaslightingus, and that's in person or online.
We don't have an obligation to wasteour time with people like that.
(26:07):
But I think our egos make us thinkthat we can just make them change if
we just find the right magic words.
And that's on the ego's talking.
Katie (26:17):
Yeah.
Loretta J Ross (26:18):
You know, you can't even change the person that most
loves you with magic words, much lessstrangers on the internet or in person.
And so I created the 5C continuum, callingout, cancel, calling in, calling on, and
calling it off as a way of recognizing thepatterns of our conflicts and interaction.
(26:43):
And once you recognize thepatterns, then you can choose the
response to that pattern that mostemotionally suits you at the time.
Cause you have no obligationto do any of those things.
You can always call it off.
But if you choose to want to pursueaccountability, you have a lot of
options instead of just gettinginto this blow-out fight, calling
(27:08):
people names, accusing them of beingcaricatures and things like that.
And you'll find that the more you callingyourself in to call others in, the
much better you'll feel about yourself.
So when the person at the driver'slicense bureau gets on with last nerve,
instead of having a blowout with themabout how they're treating you, why
(27:31):
not see how difficult that job mustbe for her and call yourself in and
offer grace, humor, compassion, andyou will feel so much better about
yourself than if you just let loose.
Katie (27:47):
Yeah.
And it sounds like you canactually accomplish or, or
take steps to accomplish.
what it truly is that you want toaccomplish instead of making that reactive
response of the ego of the moment.
I love that it's a continuum too because alot of people think that they either call
someone out or they don't say anythingand then they'll feel guilty about not
(28:11):
saying anything because they should havehelped, they should have done something
and then they're worried that someoneelse is going to call them out for not
saying something so it can be this verydestructive loop, but with this continuum
gives people choice and also it soundslike you can choose many in sequence.
(28:31):
So maybe you call someone in and thenyou're like, I'm calling it off, right?
Loretta J Ross (28:36):
Exactly.
The point that I like withlearning calling in practice is
that they're not niceness lessons.
You're not giving people apass on injustice . You are
in control of how you show up.
I love the fact that we can always saywhat we mean and mean what we say, but
(28:56):
we don't have to say it mean, that's achoice, and never pretend that it's not.
Katie (29:02):
What do you say to people who might push back and say, well, they had their
chance, and you know, I want to tell themwhat's up, there's no more playing nice.
What do you say to people who Push backif you've ever gotten pushed back on the
idea of calling in or maybe those other Coptions besides calling out and canceling
(29:24):
that help them recognize that this is animportant part of this change ecosystem.
Loretta J Ross (29:28):
Oh, in my book, I talk about the appropriate uses of call outs.
Well, it's not like I'm takingit off the table as a tactic that
never should be used when peopleare abusing that power or others.
When they've had opportunities tochange and they've chosen not to, when
they're at risk of causing real harmto real people, of course, we have to
(29:51):
still have call outs in our arsenal.
But the point is that we shouldreserve it for very limited occasions,
like one of those Break Glass InCase Of Fire moments, not really use
and overuse it for people with whomwe have conflicts, disagreements.
(30:12):
There's so many other ways to createnot only productive conversation,
but my ultimate goal is to builda strong human rights movement.
And I have to honestly say, I didmy book as a political project.
I am actually not that interested inpeople as, you know, I'm an introvert.
(30:32):
I get mad when people call me becausethat takes my head out of my books.
It's not that I'm trying to Kumbayawith a whole lot of humanity.
But I do believe that as a humanrights movement, if we do not learn
how to be More effective and strongertogether, we will be susceptible
(30:54):
to the divisiveness of fascism.
And we're in this political momentwhere predominant people in our society
are telling everybody to hate eachother, who doesn't agree with them.
And we gotta get rid of our inner Trumps.
You know, we can't just go aroundpracticing these cutthroat politics
(31:18):
on each other and then expecting thatwe're going to be able to build the
power to stop human rights violationsthat are palpably happening right now.
They're already roundingup vulnerable immigrants.
They're already dehumanizing trans people.
Attacking all the civil rightsand the women's rights we've
(31:39):
fought prayed and died for.
And so, I believe that the people we'reopposing, those who are opposed to
human rights, only have two advantages.
Lies and violence.
That's all they got going for them.
And they have to lie to theirfollowers and intimidate the
rest of us with violence.
(32:00):
But I'm like, well lookwhat we got on our side.
We've got the truth.
We've got history.
We've got history.
If you think like you can make usforget the whole 19th and 20th century
happened and you're just going towish it away because it's inconvenient
history for you, we got the evidence.
We got the receipts of whoyou are and who we are.
(32:23):
And best of all, we got time.
Because these people arean endangered species.
You want to talk aboutthe use of that term?
White supremacy is on its last legs.
Cause even the young whitepeople don't want it to continue.
Look at how they voted.
And so we got their kids withour music, with our cool, and
(32:46):
we got them at the ballot box.
So they are demographically doomed.
And my biggest fear is that despiteholding a winning hand with truth,
time, evidence, and history on ourside, we'll blow it with the call out
culture (33:02):
by turning on each other and cannibalizing each other with our attempt
to be politically pure, while we areremarkably ineffective in building power.
Katie (33:15):
Mm.
How does someone orient themselvestoward calling in and bringing people
in and that winning hand when theirimpulse is to call someone out because
it's in the air that they're breathing?
It's in the ecosystem.
Like, how do you build a muscle ofcalling in when it can seem easier
(33:37):
or more psychologically and ego shortterm satisfying to call someone out?
Loretta J Ross (33:44):
Well, I don't have a formula for everybody, but
I do know that my first call outresponse was triggered by my trauma.
I'm a call out queen, by the way, Ilove telling people off, so it's not
like I'm some saint trying to telleverybody else how to be a saint.
No, I love telling people off, but I findthat that impulse is my trauma response.
(34:07):
It's when I put myself on pause.
And give myself a chance tothink about what I really want
the effect of my words to be.
That I actually say things thatreinforce my compassion and my integrity.
And so I try to swallowthat first response.
To give my emotional intelligenceand my integrity intelligence a
(34:32):
chance to catch up to my mouth.
And then, I say the second thing.
And if you've ever parentedchildren, you got that instinctively.
Cause if you blurt out the first thingthat comes to your head, when your
children are getting on their lastnerve, they'll be in therapy for life.
So we know a lot of swallow.
(34:52):
That first response will neverbe compassionate, caring parents.
And it can work for all aspectsof our lives to not be trauma
driven, but be trauma informed.
Understand how you need to work onyourself so that trauma is not driving
(35:12):
your relationships with other people.
Because it is true,hurt people hurt people.
And if you are not attendingto the soul wounds that you've
experienced, then all you're gonnado is bleed all over everybody.
Whether you're trying to call themin, call them out, or even just try to
establish a good relationship with them.
(35:35):
I mean, a lot of traumatized peoplecan't even establish great love
relationships because the traumashows up in all those relationships.
And so it's really important tolearn that we're always going to
be more than what happened to us.
And it's a choice to stay in that victimspace or to move to that survivor space,
(36:01):
and overcome what happened to you.
Katie (36:03):
You mentioning anyone who has parented children or been around
children, practically speaking, itsounds like calling in and the practice
and the muscle of calling in on a very,very like day to day level could be
saying, Well, what would I say to thisperson if they were a four year old?
If they were my four year oldnephew, what would I say to them?
Loretta J Ross (36:26):
That's a good way of framing it.
Another way I'd put it was that youtreat people as if they're holding
their heart in your hand and youdon't want to squeeze it too tight.
Because if someone was holding theirheart, would you let them squeeze
it with their power, with theirindifference, with their trauma?
No, you wouldn't want somebodyto treat your heart like that.
(36:50):
And so learn the practice of actinglike we'll have the power to not squeeze
somebody's heart and make them go, ouch.
Katie (36:59):
Something that I've heard from a lot of people who listen to this podcast
because they want to do this work sobadly and they're like, "but these people
make me so mad and they piss me off somuch and how could they think that way?"
Something that you mentioned thatI think is freaking brilliant and
(37:19):
has already changed my life is youdescribe the difference between someone
who can't be changed and someonewho is three versions of an ally.
So I think you say a provenpotential and a problematic ally.
Can you talk a little bit about that?
Loretta J Ross (37:37):
Yeah.
I find that a lot of the callout culture is because people
don't do good threat assessments.
Now, they have trouble distinguishingbetween people who are outright enemies,
who are opposed to human rights, whoare opposed to justice and fairness and
compassion, - and everybody else who'sjust muddling along through life, right?
(38:01):
And I get this a lot when peoplewant to use words like "performative"
when the describer of what theythink are inadequate social justice
responses or work by other people.
Like if a white person puts up a BlackLives Matter sign or a straight person
hangs a rainbow flag or whatever,I try to get them to do a better
(38:25):
threat assessment and say, okay, weknow we've got fascists out here.
We know we have people who benefit andprofit from hate and it's impossible to
get someone to understand justice if theirwhole economic model depends on injustice.
But for the rest of the people,you've got your proven allies, the
(38:47):
people you can ride and die with.
Because you've beenthrough stuff together.
You know who those are.
And then you've got your problematicallies, people with whom you agree
on a lot of stuff, but they mayfocus on climate change while
you focus on women's rights.
They may be racially challenged orracially under-developed so they don't
know how to stop saying "you people"or "colored people" or whatever.
(39:12):
But you'll never agree on most thingsbecause they were problematic allies.
then you've got then larger setof people, as was proven in the
Black Lives Matter protests of2020, are your potential allies.
There were 11, 000 demonstrations in2020, most led by white people, by the
(39:34):
way, and most of them were displayingBlack Lives Matter signs, or some kind of
indication, like right after the election,the blue bracelet people, for example.
And I'm saying, you already knowthe number one thing we need to know
about all those potential allies.
And you know what that is?
They not in the Ku Klux Klan,cause no Klansman has ever put up
(39:58):
a Black Lives Matter sign, and noTrump supporter ever wore a blue
bracelet, and put up a rainbow flag.
So your job is to sophisticate youranalysis so that you can figure
out the strategy to work withpotential, proven, And problematic
allies, because the most importantthread is that they're all allies.
(40:20):
You cannot define them as enemiesbecause you're incompetent
at doing a threat assessment.
Katie (40:27):
Oh, that's so good.
And that almost makes it like,okay, there's potential here.
There's opportunity.
Let's find the potential.
Let's find the opportunity.
Like, how do we maximize thismoment and this conversation?
Loretta J Ross (40:43):
And we do it with kindness and accepting that other people
are gonna be as complicated as you.
So there's gonna be things that they'restrong on and weak on and there's things
that you're strong on and weak on.
People ask me all the time why Idon't throw around the word racist.
Well I say because the way I see thewhite people that I have to analyze and
(41:07):
or work with or call out, is that I tendto reserve that word for the people who
are intentional about their bigotry.
And there are a plethoraof them to talk about.
I got that.
But most of them are either raciallychallenged or racially illiterate.
And I'm not going to have a negativeconversation with them no more
(41:29):
than I would criticize someonewho comes to the United States and
can't speak the English I prefer.
I don't need to use my power as away of dissing people who have been
intentionally made to be ignorant.
Look at this attack on knowledge andevidence of truth that we're dealing with.
(41:51):
We're living in a country ofwhite people who were not only
not taught a correct history ofwhat's true of how the world works.
But were rewarded fortheir ignorance, right?
Well, if somebody was paying youan advantage for being ignorant,
you'd turn a blind eye to it, too.
That's just human.
And so I take the lot of fun fromsaying very painful things to
(42:18):
white people with love, you know?
Most of them that listen are willingto learn as little as long as I don't
shame and blame them in the process.
Make it appear like it's theirfault that they don't know.
I don't make it their fault they don'tunderstand how to dissect patriarchy.
I only talk about them beingresponsible for it lets them know
(42:40):
that they're enmeshed in that culture.
Katie (42:43):
Is there a way, and I know every single person is different, but in your
vision of how in an ideal world thiswould work, how do you get where it
feels like, okay, I'm making some change?
Loretta J Ross (42:57):
First of all, it starts with your expectations of them.
Don't think you're gonna again, findthose magic words that immediately
causes somebody to re-evaluate theirlife, their choices, their lived
experiences, and suddenly give you thechange that you hope that they see..
It ain't gonna happen that way.
From my perspective, I'm always gonnabe proud that I made the chance for 'em.
(43:21):
I gave them the room to grow withouttaking responsibility for their inability
to take advantage of the opportunity.
But Generally, it's a cumulative effect.
The first time you call somebody in,it may not change anything, but as we
create this calling in culture, otherpeople are going to say that, you
(43:44):
know, "I think you're a good person.
I love the compassion you have.
So why is there this weirdarea that you talk badly about
strangers you don't even know?
I mean, what's going on with you?
Can I help you?
Can I, can we talk about the goodpart of you that I admire and the
(44:05):
troubling part that I'm trying tofigure out why you want to be that way?"
I mean, it was kind of like mosthuman beings don't wanna walk
around consciously hurting people.
So the question is why would you want to?
What's going on in her soul thatmakes you indifferent to the
suffering that you're causing?
(44:27):
That's really the most importantquestion we can ask each other.
And so, you're constantly goingto be offered chances to offer
people grace, forgiveness,respect, and their human rights.
And you can't think youfailed simply because of their
inability to grow in the moment.
I mean, I got a hard head.
(44:48):
Some things have to be said to memany times before I got it, and we're
all kind of like that because wedon't like to be told what to think.
We don't like somebody to assumethat we don't know something
or that we're incapable oflearning and growing and stuff.
So that first feeling when wetry to call somebody in and out,
it's actually going to be shame.
(45:10):
They're going to feel shame.
They're going to feel likethey've been put on the spot.
They're going to feel like they'vebeen accused of not knowing
enough or not being enough.
So calibrate your response to that.
That's the normal human condition.
And so they're not bad people forfeeling like every human being would
feel under those circumstances.
Katie (45:31):
Right.
Right.
They're feeling like humans feelbecause they're humans, not robots.
And thank goodness, because that meansthat there is opportunity there force
shifting because of their humanity,
Loretta J Ross (45:43):
but you have to assure them that you believe in them, that
you take their suffering seriously,that you recognize that their lived
experiences got them to do certain thingsthat really were lived experiences,
got you to do certain things.
They're strangely enough, theirexperiences are as valid as yours.
And so, keeping that complexity inmind, you offer people grace and space.
(46:10):
So, just like we all know thatit's not politically correct
anymore to say the word [censored].
Well, what happened when thefirst time we used that word and
somebody called us out for using it?
They could have shamed us and punishedus for using it, or they could
have given us the space to grow.
(46:31):
for learning, oh, now we say differentlyabled, or neurodivergent, or any other
number of words that don't dehumanizepeople with different abilities.
So we all have opportunitiesto learn and grow.
And if we can always keep in mind,like Malcolm X says, when we didn't
(46:51):
know something that we'll alwayshave grace for others who maybe
don't know what we think we know.
Katie (46:59):
This has been such an incredible conversation and I know it's going to be
so, so nourishing and so energizing for somany people who are listening right now.
So as we're wrapping up and we're wrappingup in January of 2025 with everything
that's going on in January 2025.
(47:20):
What can you say to people who arelistening, who are feeling scared
and their hope is dwindling andthey're also holding the duality of
feeling hope and feeling energizedand feeling that sort of vision?
What is something that you wouldlove to say to those people?
Loretta J Ross (47:40):
Well, this may sound like a commercial, but I would urge
them to Use my name to get to mywebsite and join calling in classes.
We've got another one starting in Marchand it's hundreds of people learning
the techniques of how to showcasetheir integrity by practicing calling
(48:01):
in with their friends, their families,their communities, their fellow
students, their co workers, all of this.
As so, I would urge people to joinour $5 classes because it's only $5.
The cheapest consciousness raisingyou'll ever find on the internet.
So that's what I would say, thatwe're building a human rights
(48:21):
movement with human rights as ourgoal and calling in as our practices.
Cause I believe that calling inis going to be as important to the
human rights movement in the 21stcentury as non violence was to the
civil rights movement in the 20th.
A statement of our compassionand how we care for even those
(48:44):
we would call our enemies.
Katie (48:47):
As we're wrapping up, there are three questions that I ask people.
Before we sign off, there'sno correct way to answer it.
The right way is your way.
The first question is, positivityis defined differently by everybody.
So how do you define positivity?
Loretta J Ross (49:07):
I define positivity as a necessary ingredient in believing
in your ability to change and grow.
Because if you've given up, onbelieving you can change and grow.
Then you're not going to be verypositive about yourself or the future.
So it's very important to have thatgrowth mindset, not that fixed mindset.
(49:34):
Where you actually do believethat at any age you can learn
something new and you can grow.
And that to me is positivity.
Positivity is also making sure thatthe fingerprint you leave on other
people is one of love and not hate.
That's also positivity for me.
Katie (49:53):
I love that.
All right.
Second question is, when do youfeel the most like yourself?
Loretta J Ross (50:03):
Oh, I feel the most like myself when I'm doing my hard partying.
I was told as a teenager that Ineeded to party as hard as I work.
Now, obviously in my seventies,I'm not going to the nightclubs
or anything like that, because Idon't have a Peter Pan complex.
I play competitive Pinochle with myoctogenarian friends, and we compete
(50:28):
in tournaments around the country.
And you know, we're all our walkersand our canes and our wheelchairs.
We are having so much delight in beingwith each other and still being alive
to share this camaraderie and know thatno matter what we've been through in
life, we can manage to have exquisite funtogether and compassion for each other.
(50:52):
I mean, we read as funeral programsas we do Hamilton playbills.
You know, we are living out loud 'tilthe end of our lives and I love that.
Katie (51:04):
Oh, I love that so much.
I like want to catapult myself intothe future and live out that life.
Okay.
The last question.
I define fearlessness as not feelingthe fear and doing it anyway, but
when the fear you have of a situation,thing, whatever it is, is less than
(51:26):
the faith you have in yourself.
So an equation fearless is whenyou fear is less than the faith.
Given that definition, LorettaRoss, what makes you feel fearless?
Loretta J Ross (51:38):
What has made me feel fearless is the certain
knowledge that I've handledeverything that's been thrown my way.
I mean, at 11 years old,I was kidnapped and raped.
I had a child through incest.
I got shot at threeyears old in Mississippi.
Even as an adult, my picturehas appeared in Klan newspapers.
(52:03):
And so I've had to decide at manypoints of my life that I wasn't going
to let what happened to me determinewho Loretta Ross would become.
And I have to honestly say,I'm scared all the time.
I don't think courageis the absence of fear.
Courage is doing the right thing.
And so I don't try to getpeople to not be afraid.
(52:25):
Like, I haven't achieved that myself.
I have achieved a determination to makesure that the Loretta who shows up.
It's the one that shows hervulnerability and strength.
That is not something to be ashamed of.
Katie (52:43):
I am just so, so deeply grateful for you and your work
and I cannot thank you enough.
This book and your work is right ontime and is going to move mountains this
year, in this moment and way beyond.
~That was Loretta Ross.
If you would like to learn more aboutLoretta's incredible life-changing
(53:07):
work, sign up for a calling in course,get her book or dig into any of the
numerous resources that she provides.
You can head on over to the shownotes where all of the links are
or head over to women againstnegative talk.com to find them there.
If you liked this episode, make surethat you are subscribed where ever you
(53:30):
listen to podcasts, iTunes, Spotify, Iheart radio we're in all of the places.
Make sure that you're subscribed.
And that you review the podcast,telling people why they should be
listening and join our community.
The best thing that you can do as alistener to help us grow is to share an
episode with a friend, share an episodethat you love that has helped you.
(53:54):
And maybe it can support them.
I also wanted to mention that we willbe hosting a giveaway for Loretta's
book calling in over on social media.
So you can follow me on Instagram atKatie Horwitch, and you can find me on
sub stack at women against negative talk.
That wraps it up for today.
Thank you so much for spending the lasthour or so with me and with Loretta.
(54:17):
I know your time is valuable and I amjust so grateful that you choose to
spend it here with us on the wantcastas always move forward, fearlessly,
spread the good word and be theyou, you know, you're meant to be.
I'll see you in two weeks.
Take care.
Bye bye.
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