March 27, 2025 • 29 mins
Entrepreneur, investor, and former Dragon’s Den star Sara Davies has spent 20 years building businesses and helping others do the same. She started her company, Crafter’s Companion, while still at university and turned it into a global brand. But as she tells Krishnan Guru-Murthy, success isn’t just about strategy - it’s about mindset.
It’s a theme she explores in her latest book, The Six-Minute Entrepreneur, which distills the lessons of her own journey into advice for anyone looking to succeed.
In this episode of Ways to Change the World, she reflects on the challenges facing small businesses, what she’s learned from Dragon’s Den, and why the UK needs to celebrate its entrepreneurs more. As she steps away from the Den, she also shares what’s next for her and why she remains deeply passionate about backing businesses that make a difference.
Produced by Silvia Maresca and Ka Yee Mak.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:01):
Hello and welcome to Ways to Change the World.
I'm Christian Giri Murphy, and this is the podcast in which we
talk to extraordinary people about the big ideas in their
lives and the events that have helped shape them.
My guest this week is the entrepreneur, investor, star of
Dragon's Den, Sara Davis. The Sara was the founder of a
crafting business which has become incredibly successful and
(00:22):
she now invests in other people's businesses through
Dragon's Den. But she has just announced that
she's leaving the BBC show for the time being, and it's also
been announced that she's going to become the presenter of a new
ITV quiz show. So, Sarah Davis, how would you
change the world? So you'll not be surprised to
hear that that I personally think the cornerstone of any
(00:46):
successful economy is small business.
And so for me to want to change the world for the better, I
think the more we can do to makethose small businesses
successful, that in turn will have a knock on impact of the
economy being more successful that will lead to everybody
being happy, more prosperous or have a better world all around.
You've got a unique sort of perspective really on small
(01:08):
business because of Dragon's Denand everything that flows from
that, I imagine. And that you've got, you've got
a lot of sort of fingers in pies, but also you get to see
and talk to a lot of people. Yeah.
How would you say the environment feels right now?
I mean, is, is it, is it harder to be an entrepreneur now than
it was when you started? Is it or is it always the same?
No. So I've been in business for 20
years and I can tell you in the last few years coming out of
(01:31):
that post pandemic world have just been tough.
And I know for a lot of businesspeople, you know, sometimes you
just question, well, why am I doing it?
Life would be so much easier if I just went out and got a job.
And I think that the thing with being in business is you don't
carry the weight of your world on your shoulders.
You carry the weight of every member of your staff on your
shoulders. You know, I remember even if I
(01:52):
go back to when the pandemic hit, I had 250 staff at the time
and the decisions I was making in my life were not about how do
I prepare and how do I preserve what I've got in my life.
It's how do I save those 250 people's jobs so that they can
continue to pay their mortgages.And that is the way that an
entrepreneur carries the weight,the weight of their other staff.
(02:12):
And so I think definitely the last couple of years, I've felt
that weight more than ever and felt that responsibility.
And it's felt really, really tough.
But it's it, you know, this is what we were always taught.
It's the tough times when the fittest will survive because
you've got to dig that little bit deeper so that when the good
times come round again, you'll be the ones that are succeeding.
And so for business like yours, you know, selling, crafting
(02:33):
stuff, stuff I. Was wondering how you were going
to be that stuff stuff. You know, why has that been so
difficult? So you might find this
surprising. And what I really struggled with
after the pandemic and during the pandemic is people always
all said to me, oh, your business must be booming at the
moment because everybody's getting into crafting.
Yeah, everyone's at home and yes, do.
(02:54):
You know, during the pandemic, our industry grew monumentally.
The amount the amount of people getting into craft was insane.
Well, yes, the craft industry grew.
There was more interest in crafting.
However, we're facing the same economic challenges that all
businesses have. Our container shipping costs
went from 4000 lbs of container to 24,000 lbs of container.
(03:14):
Our customers don't care. You know, you can't charge them
more for the for the price of products.
The cost of doing business went through the roof in every area
and that is what we had to deal with as a small business with
all of this price pressure. Yet we are in A and luxury spend
market. So I don't feel like we can go
to our customers and say that pack of felted pens that we sell
(03:34):
you, that was always 999, it's going to be 1299 now.
They won't tolerate it, they won't pay for it.
So we've got all of the price pressure, keeping our prices low
whilst you're not making anywhere near as much money as
you were. And businesses that were already
pretty close on the line and making small margins couldn't
survive because the small margins became negative margins.
(03:55):
And those businesses that were making good margins sometimes
question, is it worth it? Because you put your prices up
to 1299 for that pack of pens, nobody wants to buy them.
So it doesn't matter how much demand there is in the market.
It's not necessarily flushing through to being able to build a
profitable business. And I've seen hundreds of small
businesses in our industry just shut up shop because it's not
(04:15):
worth the hassle. And the costs that they have to
incur are not enough to sustain going forward.
So six years I've been filming in the Den and in that time I've
watched different businesses come through those doors.
And the massive change in the way that people approached
business in that first year to how they were approaching
business through post pandemic times and how they're
(04:37):
approaching it now has been monumental.
And I've I've started to get a real feel for who's going to
succeed. And you can see more than
anything, it's attitude. Have they got the, are they
nimble enough? Can they adapt to what's going
on in the market? Or, and I hate it when we get
these ones coming and they're just a little bit like what is
me? I've got this great business.
It was fantastic, but now the economy is difficult.
(04:58):
So I'm just kind of, you know, holding on in wait until it gets
better and then I'll be great again.
Those people aren't going to make it.
They aren't the ones who are going to succeed.
And it's, it's fascinating to see the different mindsets
mindset will get you 98% of the way.
They have no doubt about it. Because you're leaving Dragons
Den now, but as you leave, how many of those businesses are you
still invested in and involved in?
(05:20):
Yes. So Craigie, over six years,
every year I could pick up potentially up to a dozen new
businesses. Now not every one of those
businesses that we invest in ends up going through and
completing the deal. Some of them decide it wasn't
all they were cracked up to be. They didn't want to do this.
Some of them don't pass their due diligence.
But a lot of those businesses I have stayed in as a slightly
longer term investor than maybe there's a lot of people
(05:42):
ordinarily ward with business. Generally any investor coming in
might take a three to five year outlook.
I'm still invested in businessesthat I invested in in my first
year because more than anything,those businesses still want me
in that business and my motivation is maybe a bit
different to some other people that sit there.
I want to help that business on that journey.
And if I feel like I'm in a position to still continue
(06:02):
helping, I'd rather do that thancashing my chips and make a bit
of money and move on to the nextone.
I've never been that make a bit of money and move on to the next
one. I, I, I get my kicks and my my
cups filled up from knowing I'vehelped those entrepreneurs and
that is worth so much more in mylife to the money that I make on
business deals. What, what is your role?
(06:22):
I mean, because that's the way we never see, you know, once
you've done the deal, assume youknow, some of them drop by the
wayside. But if you've done the deal,
you've invested, what do you then do?
Or is it different for each? The best way I can describe
being an investor or certainly how I approach it, is it's a
little bit like being an auntie,Right.
So I remember when my sister hadher first baby, you know, it was
(06:43):
great because I could turn up. I was like, oh, yeah, this is
how you burp the baby. Yeah.
Oh, give me the lovely cuddles. Isn't that lovely?
Oh, that poo's a funny colour. I think you want to look into
it. Look into that.
And then at the end of the night, I would, oh, give her a
nice little kiss. There you go.
That's your problem. Now you have the sleepless
night, you have the worry. You're the parent.
I'm just the lovely auntie. And that's what being an
investor in a business is like for me.
(07:05):
I get to come in. I get to share my positive
experiences. I get to give give that
entrepreneur all the advice thatI've got.
It's up to them whether or not they take it and listen to it
and implement it in their business.
I'm not there to run their business for them.
I'm not there to hand hold them.I'm there to be a mentor, to be
a coach, to be a role model, to support them, to stand with them
on that journey as they succeed in their own business.
(07:27):
You know, I don't parent my niece.
I support my sister to parent her daughter.
And I think that's the big difference.
And is that what you sort of distilled in the book?
I mean, the, the, the book is, is a series of little lessons
that don't take long to read, but it's sort of that are
intended as sort of a weekly class in which people have a
task and some homework. And, and something to think
(07:50):
about is, is that essentially what you know what you're
telling your businesses as well?So here's the thing, I've got a
lot of stories, right? I am like, that's what I love to
do. I learn through hearing other
people's experiences and storiesand fables.
That's what's always worked for me.
And I have the privilege of being able to travel all over
the world and getting invited tostand on big stages and speak to
(08:12):
10s of thousands of entrepreneurs and share those
stories in the hope that it makes a difference in those
businesses. And I know that every time I do
that, I look around the room andyou can see when one of those
stories really resonates and somebody makes the connection of
that's very similar to what's happening in my life.
And how can I take the learning away from what Sarah did to
(08:32):
benefit my life. So I sat down one day and I
planned out hear all the storiesI want to share and I had around
50 of them and I thought right one a week, one a week if I
distill down to one a week. Turn each one into a lesson.
Turn each one into a lesson. What?
About your own story then, I mean, where did your
entrepreneurialism come from? Because you didn't come from a
business, family or anything like.
(08:53):
That did you so interestingly, you know, people often say are
entrepreneurs born or made and Iactually don't don't know how
that works in mining, but both my parents were entrepreneurs.
I just would never have described them as entrepreneurs
because that was a big fancy word that a kid from a pit
village in the North East of England and wouldn't he used OK,
but my mum and dad ran their ownshop in our village, right.
(09:14):
So I grew up in an entrepreneurial family there.
There is no line where our family finished and that
business started it all just weaved into one.
We would get a a painter and decorate and knock on our, you
know, family door at 10:00 at night because they needed a tin
of paint mixing and my mum wouldput a dressing gown on, open the
shop up and go and mix them in apaint.
That that is that was our life. And I often think if if you're
(09:36):
being an entrepreneur, it's not a career choice, it's a
lifestyle choice. You have to be prepared to live
that life because it's not a case of whether you turn off at
5:00 or 7:00, you don't switch off.
There's not a switch off for an entrepreneur.
It's a responsibility that you carry with you all the time.
And if you're prepared to take that route, the rewards can be
(09:57):
absolutely enormous, but the risks are also big that go with
it. So there's very, you know, it's
not everybody who's wired the way to be that you need to be to
be an entrepreneur. But because I'd seen that
lifestyle in my parents, I grew up knowing that's what I want to
do. I want to be in control of my
own destiny. I want to be in charge of what I
do. I don't want to answer to
somebody else. I'm going to start my own
business. And so do you know, do you have
(10:19):
a string of failures that we don't know about behind you or
or or did the first big idea work?
Yeah, so, so for most people, they start several businesses
before they found the one that worked.
And for me, Crafter's Companion was my first business and took
off and took off massively quitequickly.
And I think I, I, because I'd never experienced failure, I
(10:42):
didn't know what to do in that situation.
And actually a couple of years ago, I'd sold the majority stake
in the business by this point toinvestors because I'd moved on
to the next stage of my career and I was investing in other
businesses. And so Crafter's Companion was
just a small part of my life then.
And, and an investment group took on that business.
I still stayed a minority shareholder, but they then
(11:02):
didn't lead the business to success.
And, and, and just before Christmas, they put the business
into administration. And I was faced with the really
difficult decision of do I let that business go into
administration or do I buy it back?
And I undertake the turn around knowing that I'm undertaking a
turn around in the most difficult economic climate I've
ever seen in my lifetime. And I think most people would
(11:25):
have run for the hills at that point.
But it's the people, the, the people that mattered, the, the,
the 100 plus staff that were still in that business at that
time. Most of them were people I'd
recruited into that business andthen I deeply cared about so
much, and I felt like I owed it to them to take a roll on the
dice and to buy this business back and to work my little socks
off building that business back up.
So I feel like I've experienced failure now, but in a different
(11:49):
capacity, somebody else. But I'm still picking up the
pieces from it and I'm still taking the learnings.
And so it's been quite the whirlwind couple of months, I
can tell you. But I, I think a lot of people
sort of who, who sort of play around with the idea of, oh,
I've got an idea on this and an idea of that.
I just don't know where to start.
Yes. And they kind of think, well,
you must you, you, you've got tohave loads of money to start a
(12:10):
business. Where do I Where do I get money?
So let me do what do you do? First myth, right?
So when I started the business and I had five grands worth of
savings that I'd saved from doing my year, my year's work
placement. And I remember my first product,
I got a quote to get it off the ground and to get it
manufactured and it was 30,000 lbs.
And I had five grand. So at that point, most people
(12:32):
either give up or they go and remortgage their house, take out
massive loans, whatever it is, go into debt for that 30,000 LB.
Neither of those were an option for me.
I wasn't going into debt and I wasn't giving up on this.
So there's always more than one way to skin a cat.
And in my the way I did it was instead of, you know, making the
product in plastic and making two or three pound a unit
(12:53):
selling it, I got the maiden MDFin me dad's mates garage making
a quid profit on each one. Right.
And it wasn't the glamorous backto the business that I envisaged
and it wasn't where I wanted thebusiness to be.
But it got me started. And then once you started, then
once I'd made enough profit, I'dsold enough envelopers as they
were to then reinvest and build a plastic wall.
(13:13):
That's how I built my business in the early years.
I didn't want investment, I didn't want debt.
So I just built the business slower and was in control of all
the growth all the time so. You did it with that 5000 lbs.
Did you or did you borrow a small amount?
I didn't even my my mum and dad offered to lend me money.
I didn't want them to go into any debt for it.
We weren't a well healthy familyjust because they were
entrepreneurs running their own business.
It was a tiny little business. It was the village shop.
(13:36):
So I didn't want them to have that pressure for my business.
But I think the difference for me is I was only 21 and I think
you have a different appetite torisk when you don't have a
mortgage to pay, you don't have dependents.
I didn't have a job that I had to give up to pursue my
business. I was doing this as a side
hustle while I was at university.
And it's that side hustle that Iturned into what could become a
(13:57):
full time job for myself. And I think that is that's why I
spend a lot of time and with young people saying, do you
know, you've got an idea? Why can you not try it now?
Why, why, why is now not the right time?
Why wait till you've built a career or you've, you've got a
mortgage to pay everything like that, Then it's a huge risk that
you're taking. Why not try it now?
And I always say to people, start first as a side hustle.
That's the best thing you can dode risk as much as possible.
(14:19):
Start as a side hustle and buildfrom there.
I mean, because we often talk about Britain as a sort of as,
as a, you know, a nation of shopkeepers, that small
businesses are the engine that that drives the country.
But I, I, I think the small, thesmall businesses of now and of
the future are, are, are of a different kind in a way.
You know, it's, it's not just about retail or, you know, the
(14:42):
traditional kinds of businesses that we've seen since the post
war, post war world and people sort of wrestling with, you
know, big manufacturers, China, the tech companies and kind of
wondering where where small business fits into that.
So, you know, what do you advisepeople who want to be
(15:02):
entrepreneurs in the current climate?
It is the thing that's driving change is the pace, the pace at
which the world is developing. You know, I, I'm a business
owner, I can't keep, I can't keep up with the pace of change
with, with the artificial intelligence in this world.
And it's terrifying. But I think for a lot of
businesses, this the principles behind running a business are
(15:24):
the same whether it was 3 generations ago running a shop
or a or a small farm or holding or businesses now that are
starting or purely Internet based.
I see a lot of people starting side hustles on Etsy, for
example, or, you know, building up a business on social media.
It's just the world is just different.
But the principles behind driving and running a business
(15:45):
have never and will never change.
Just the world in which that business operates needs to
change. So I also go back to the core
principles I. Mean, it's interesting that you
talked about the difficulties, but they've not necessarily
been, you know, governmental, you know, are there things that
you think could change around you, around the environments
(16:05):
that would make life easier for entrepreneurs?
There's always things that are going to make life easier for
entrepreneurs and a lot of business owners are complaining
about the government, the policies and the taxation.
Yes, all of that would massivelyhelp and make a bigger
difference. However, the biggest if I look
at what's made the biggest difference in my entrepreneurial
journey, it's not been what the government's done or what the
(16:26):
taxation policies have been. It's been the people I surround
myself with. I I'm a firm believer that you
are a product of the people you surround yourself with and I'm
really lucky in that I've never been shy to knock on people's
doors and ask people to mentor me or to get myself in with
business groups and to surround myself with other successful
business people because that rubs off.
That's the beauty of it, that rubs off.
(16:46):
It's like when I join Dragons Den.
What a phenomenal opportunity for a 35 year old lass to sit
alongside some of the biggest business moguls in the country
and learn from them as she's wanting to develop her skills as
a, as an investor. That that was the biggest
learning curve I could go through and I soaked up every
second of it. And I always say to people now
(17:06):
surround yourself with the rightpeople.
You know, if you, if you're in business or you want to be in
business, go and inject yourselfinto various opportunities,
business groups, read books fromother people who've succeeded at
this. Go to talks, you know, get
involved because that will rub off and that will make you
successful. It's all about having the
positive mindset and and learning from these people so
that you can develop. It's 1 positive mindset.
(17:29):
Are you a believer in fake it till you make it?
Oh yes, I am. Do you know what I used to do
when I first started? I can remember when I used to
advertise in the back of some ofthe craft magazines and you
could take a little advert in the directory at the back for
£30 or you could step up and a quarter page would be so much or
a half page and a full page. And I always had the attitude of
(17:50):
I'd rather advertise in one craft magazine with one full
page ad than 4 magazines with a quarter page ad.
Even though four times more people would see that quarter
page ad. I'd look like a big deal to the
people who saw me. And it was always that fake it
till you make it come across as the bigger business until you
actually get there. You know it's people only know
what you tell them as well. You know you, it's how you
(18:12):
introduce yourself. I hate people who off with I'm
just so and so you're not just anything.
You're this be proud of it. Shout about it.
If if you don't think it's a bigdeal, who else is going to think
it's a big deal? And so, have you ever suffered
from imposter syndrome? Absolutely.
And I, and I think, I think everybody suffers from imposter
syndrome a little bit, but womenespecially, we are suckers for
(18:33):
it. And do you know the the worst
time in my life, I think I suffered from imposter syndrome
was probably when I joined the Den and I sat in that chair
thinking, Oh my God, that that that is actually Deborah Meaden.
The Deborah Meaden I'm sitting next to and I'm supposed to sit
here and pretend that I'm as good as she is because I'm
sitting alongside her as a dragon.
And I didn't feel that in myself.
I didn't feel like I was good enough to be there.
(18:56):
And the only way I got over thisand it and it was self
reflection. It's not like somebody ever
pointed this out to me one day, but I take great delight and
point it out to others. I didn't decide that I got to be
a dragon. That was not my call.
I'm not qualified to make that decision.
It was made by the executive producer who recruited me.
It was signed off by the commissioner.
It went up to the head of the BBC, signed off by the BBC
(19:17):
board. They decided who got to be a
dragon, who was good enough. They obviously felt like they'd
seen something in me that was right to be a dragon.
They felt like I was good enough.
My job is to sit there in that chair and show them that they
made the right choice not to second guess them because I'm
not qualified to decide who's good enough to be a dragon.
I mean that that works if you'vebeen appointed to something like
that, but a lot of entrepreneurshave to get in the room.
(19:41):
Yeah. So what what's your advice on?
But they've. Got in.
That when you're in the room andyou're still thinking, I don't
know what I'm doing here. If you've made it into that
room, however you've got into that room, you deserve to be in
that room. What's the point in telling
yourself that you don't? Where's that going to get you?
How's that going to help you succeed?
If somebody else has seen something in you to invite you
(20:02):
to sit around that board table or to give you the opportunity
to come to that event or what, whatever that is, it's your job
to pick it up and run with it. If you let the feelings of self
doubt creep in, they will monopolise your mindset and you
will perform at the level that you think you're going to
perform. If you go into there with a
positive mindset that you can dothis.
You will succeed at this. You know, I, like I said, I sat
(20:25):
there on the 1st scene of Dragon's Den thinking all my
life how, how did I get to be here?
I'm not good enough to be here. By the time I was six years in,
I was sitting at that chair. I think BBC, you're bloody lucky
to have me. And that's the difference in the
mindset. But it it's taken six years of
self coaching and self development to change my own
mindset because nobody else is going to change it for me.
(20:46):
It's within my gift to change it.
It's only me can do something about it.
What do you think? I mean, apart from sort of
people like you sharing their stories, how, how do you think
we as a country could, you know,encourage more
entrepreneurialism amongst youngpeople, more bold, you know,
decisions more daring? Yeah.
Do you know what I think as a asa country, we just don't
(21:07):
celebrate success enough as well.
I remember, I remember doing a lot of business in America when
I was, I was a lot younger when I first, well, I still do now,
but when I first started out going to America a lot.
They celebrate success in such abigger way.
We, we, we're so humble. We don't like to shout about
what what we do. And I, I don't think that is a
good culture. I don't think that is a positive
(21:28):
thing. Don't get me wrong, I think it's
good to be humble at times. I don't think it is in an
entrepreneurial world. And I think the more that we can
big ourselves up and it's, it's very unbritish to do that.
But I always take the opportunity and that's why I
think entrepreneurial groups andnetwork groups are so good
because other people might big you up where you're not prepared
to so. Have you learned to do that?
Yes. And do you know what I'm sitting
(21:49):
here and and do as I say, not asI do because I still can't sit
out there and go, do you know what?
I'm absolutely awesome because Idon't.
It's just not, it's not me, it'snot humble, it's not British and
I would never do it. But do you know what?
As long as I'm thinking it inside.
But what I do do is I go out of my way to do that in others.
You know, they always say you should, you know, you should
(22:10):
surround yourself with people who in a room full of
opportunity, would go out of their way to mention your name.
Those are the sort of people that you want to be friends
with. And I said it earlier, you are a
product of the people you surround yourself with.
Choose wisely. Choose really, really wisely.
That's what's really paid off inmy career.
So I mean, if, if, if the Den has been such a big part of your
(22:31):
business maturity as well, by the sound of it, why are you
leaving really? I mean, have you, have you been
seduced by the glamour of TV because you're going off to do a
quiz for ITV? Do you know what it is?
It is I want to do everything. I, I love every facet of my
life. It's like what I did strictly,
(22:51):
you know, and someone came alongand they said did you want to do
strictly? And in a blink of an eye I was
like, yes. And at the time I'm juggling,
I've got young kids. I've got a, a multi £1,000,000
business operating on three timezones, you know, in in with 250
staff. I'm, I'm trying to juggle an
investment portfolio. I've still got my BBC
commitments. I was presenting on Morning Live
a lot at the moment and then allof a sudden I have to fit 50 or
(23:13):
60 hours of dancing in a week and travel up and down the
country. But I wanted to do it so badly I
just said yes. And the thing with Dragon's Den
is when I went into it, I assumed I'd do 2 years.
That's what everybody else before me seemed to have done a
couple of years. And then they change it out and
they just kept asking me to comeback and I kept saying yes.
And you know, my kids are getting a little bit older now.
They're starting to challenge mefrom being away from home a lot.
(23:35):
And the business needs me. You know, taking back Crafters
Companion this year, I'd wound down the involvement that I had
in the business and all of a sudden I've ramped it back up at
pace and it's unfair on me to put the business second to
something I'm doing because I want to do it.
I always call Dragons Den my side hustle or my hobby because
it's what I did. You know, I earned my money in
(23:55):
my own business. Dragons Den for me was always
the side hustle. It was the hobby.
And this this year, I just looked at it and it's I always
describe Dragons, Dragons Den like an iceberg.
The bit that you see is the bit at the top, the filming.
And yes, it's only 17 days of filming.
If it was only 17 days of filming, I would have begged,
borrowed and stealed 17 days from my life to make up because
(24:16):
I love it so much. But it's not.
It's then up to a dozen businesses.
You're committing to become a part of their family.
That's another dozen people who have me on speed dial who want
want to WhatsApp me on a regularbasis, who need me to understand
what's going on in their business, what's going on in
their life, and advise and add value.
And if I'm not in a position where I can give them do a good
job of doing that, it's not right to do it.
(24:37):
So I chatted with the BBC and, Imean, they were pretty
devastated. You know, they love me being a
dragon as much as I love being adragon.
And So what we agreed was this year, I needed to put my focus
on crafter's companion from in abusiness capacity.
I couldn't take on another chunkof businesses.
But that was not me closing the door.
That was me just saying this year at this moment.
(24:57):
Yeah, I. Mean you, you mentioned
strictly, I mean, you and I bothdone strictly and, and it is
sort of life changing in the moment.
But but down the line, people will still say to you, you know
what, what you know, was it really life changing?
Has it, has it still changed your life?
And I have to keep reminding myself, I think about what, what
I got from strictly and and thenI and then I remember and then,
(25:20):
and then it's, and it's good. But you've talked about how you
learnt about, well, I suppose focus and being in the moment
and and performance as a result.Yeah, I think one of one of the
biggest things for me, there's two big things I learnt from
Strictly and one of them was wasbeing present.
So probably same as you. I had to fit Strictly in amongst
(25:42):
a really busy life when a lot ofthe other contestants could drop
everything else in their life and just train 1416 hours a day.
And I was really jealous of those people because I would
have loved to have done that andgiven it my all.
And I just couldn't. I could give Ali Ash 6 hours a
day. That's all I could give him from
six. I used to, I used to get up at
5:00. I used to train from 6:00 AM
till midday every day. And I remember him saying to me
(26:03):
one week, he's like, I've never,ever known anybody with the
capacity to pick up steps as quickly as you are.
I can't understand. This they all say that.
Do you know, do you know what I said to him?
I think it was is he's never ever trained with anybody else
before 9:00 in the morning. He didn't know that there were
two 6:00 in the day, you know, and, and I had to do it at 6:00
in the morning. It's the only time I had time.
(26:24):
But what what would happen is I'd get to late 8:00 and at
8:00, my phone would start pinging and buzzing and I'd be
checking my watch and, and then all of a sudden between 6:00 and
8:00, there's nothing else goingon in my life.
He had 100% of my focus from 8:00 onwards.
He didn't because my mind would be somewhere else.
I was there in body, but I wasn't there in mind.
And he said to me a couple of weeks saying you're brilliant
between 6:00 and 8:00 AM. At 8:00, something changes.
(26:46):
You're not quite the same. And when I realised what it was
is I had to take off the Apple Watch, I had to put my phone to
one side and I had to commit to him.
I'm just being here. I'm not being available to the
business. I'm not doing.
I am in here in this room. If I can only give you 6 hours,
the least I can do is give you all of me for.
Six hours. Have you applied that to your
life since? I've had to.
That's the biggest, that's the biggest learning I've taken
(27:07):
forward, being present in whatever you do.
I can't give anything I do in mylife as much time as I'd like to
give it, so I've got to make sure that in the time I do give
it, it's got all of me. So at least I know that I'm
making up for the lack of time. It's quality over quantity.
And are you still in in the world where you think you might
start another business or, or oror is your life set now?
(27:29):
Do you know, that's, that's why I was so desperate to get into
investing because most entrepreneurs are serial
entrepreneurs. They they get their kicks out of
starting businesses and buildingbusinesses and then when they
get bored, they'll sell that business and move on to the next
one. I don't feel like that.
I am in love with crafters companion.
I love the industry, I love the customers.
(27:49):
I love the feeling of craft and I would never, even though I'd
I'd kind of majority exited thatbusiness, I wouldn't have had
the appetite to start again in that industry because if I did,
I would have been competing against my own business and and
all the people that I cared about working in that business,
I would be there competition. So I would never start up again
in the industry and then I think, well, what's the point in
starting again in a different industry?
(28:10):
I've spent 20 years understanding that industry back
to front inside out. I challenge you to show me a
single person in the world who understands more about the craft
industry than I do. You know you you couldn't I I
genuinely don't believe that if.You don't worry about somebody
coming in and stealing your, your, your, your market share.
Someone's saying, well, that, you know, I could do what
they're doing. Let them try.
Let them try. Because because you that's
(28:31):
essentially what you did and yousaw, you saw crafting and
thought I can do that better. Opportunity, yeah.
So. So what do you do to make sure
that doesn't someone doesn't come and steal your lunch do?
You know, I always say to people, focus on your own stuff,
not somebody else's. If you spend all day, every day
looking over your shoulder at what everybody else is doing,
you're not keeping your eye on the prize and what you're doing.
I always worked on the basis of we're so good at what we do,
(28:51):
we're just going to get our headdown and we're going to focus on
that. We're going to do that really
well and let everybody else comeand copy us because they aren't
good enough to have their own ideas.
And I think that is if you have that mindset in business and I
try and instillate into a lot ofmy investments, stop worrying
about everybody else. You know, if you do a good job,
they will copy you. They say flattery is everything.
And I know it's it's an easy thing to say and a difficult
(29:12):
thing to live. I've lived enough.
Trust me. If you focus on your own thing,
that's where you'll succeed. Sorry, Davis.
Thank you very much indeed. I hope you enjoyed that.
If you did, then give this podcast a rating and then other
people will find it. You can watch all of these
interviews on the Channel 4 NewsYouTube channel.
Our producer is Sylvia Maresca. Until next time, bye bye.
Hello and welcome to Ways to Change the World.
I'm Christian Giri Murphy, and this is the podcast in which we
talk to extraordinary people about the big ideas in their
lives and the events that have helped shape them.
My guest this week is the entrepreneur, investor, star of
Dragon's Den, Sara Davis. The Sara was the founder of a
crafting business which has become incredibly successful and
(00:22):
she now invests in other people's businesses through
Dragon's Den. But she has just announced that
she's leaving the BBC show for the time being, and it's also
been announced that she's going to become the presenter of a new
ITV quiz show. So, Sarah Davis, how would you
change the world? So you'll not be surprised to
hear that that I personally think the cornerstone of any
(00:46):
successful economy is small business.
And so for me to want to change the world for the better, I
think the more we can do to makethose small businesses
successful, that in turn will have a knock on impact of the
economy being more successful that will lead to everybody
being happy, more prosperous or have a better world all around.
You've got a unique sort of perspective really on small
(01:08):
business because of Dragon's Denand everything that flows from
that, I imagine. And that you've got, you've got
a lot of sort of fingers in pies, but also you get to see
and talk to a lot of people. Yeah.
How would you say the environment feels right now?
I mean, is, is it, is it harder to be an entrepreneur now than
it was when you started? Is it or is it always the same?
No. So I've been in business for 20
years and I can tell you in the last few years coming out of
(01:31):
that post pandemic world have just been tough.
And I know for a lot of businesspeople, you know, sometimes you
just question, well, why am I doing it?
Life would be so much easier if I just went out and got a job.
And I think that the thing with being in business is you don't
carry the weight of your world on your shoulders.
You carry the weight of every member of your staff on your
shoulders. You know, I remember even if I
(01:52):
go back to when the pandemic hit, I had 250 staff at the time
and the decisions I was making in my life were not about how do
I prepare and how do I preserve what I've got in my life.
It's how do I save those 250 people's jobs so that they can
continue to pay their mortgages.And that is the way that an
entrepreneur carries the weight,the weight of their other staff.
(02:12):
And so I think definitely the last couple of years, I've felt
that weight more than ever and felt that responsibility.
And it's felt really, really tough.
But it's it, you know, this is what we were always taught.
It's the tough times when the fittest will survive because
you've got to dig that little bit deeper so that when the good
times come round again, you'll be the ones that are succeeding.
And so for business like yours, you know, selling, crafting
(02:33):
stuff, stuff I. Was wondering how you were going
to be that stuff stuff. You know, why has that been so
difficult? So you might find this
surprising. And what I really struggled with
after the pandemic and during the pandemic is people always
all said to me, oh, your business must be booming at the
moment because everybody's getting into crafting.
Yeah, everyone's at home and yes, do.
(02:54):
You know, during the pandemic, our industry grew monumentally.
The amount the amount of people getting into craft was insane.
Well, yes, the craft industry grew.
There was more interest in crafting.
However, we're facing the same economic challenges that all
businesses have. Our container shipping costs
went from 4000 lbs of container to 24,000 lbs of container.
(03:14):
Our customers don't care. You know, you can't charge them
more for the for the price of products.
The cost of doing business went through the roof in every area
and that is what we had to deal with as a small business with
all of this price pressure. Yet we are in A and luxury spend
market. So I don't feel like we can go
to our customers and say that pack of felted pens that we sell
(03:34):
you, that was always 999, it's going to be 1299 now.
They won't tolerate it, they won't pay for it.
So we've got all of the price pressure, keeping our prices low
whilst you're not making anywhere near as much money as
you were. And businesses that were already
pretty close on the line and making small margins couldn't
survive because the small margins became negative margins.
(03:55):
And those businesses that were making good margins sometimes
question, is it worth it? Because you put your prices up
to 1299 for that pack of pens, nobody wants to buy them.
So it doesn't matter how much demand there is in the market.
It's not necessarily flushing through to being able to build a
profitable business. And I've seen hundreds of small
businesses in our industry just shut up shop because it's not
(04:15):
worth the hassle. And the costs that they have to
incur are not enough to sustain going forward.
So six years I've been filming in the Den and in that time I've
watched different businesses come through those doors.
And the massive change in the way that people approached
business in that first year to how they were approaching
business through post pandemic times and how they're
(04:37):
approaching it now has been monumental.
And I've I've started to get a real feel for who's going to
succeed. And you can see more than
anything, it's attitude. Have they got the, are they
nimble enough? Can they adapt to what's going
on in the market? Or, and I hate it when we get
these ones coming and they're just a little bit like what is
me? I've got this great business.
It was fantastic, but now the economy is difficult.
(04:58):
So I'm just kind of, you know, holding on in wait until it gets
better and then I'll be great again.
Those people aren't going to make it.
They aren't the ones who are going to succeed.
And it's, it's fascinating to see the different mindsets
mindset will get you 98% of the way.
They have no doubt about it. Because you're leaving Dragons
Den now, but as you leave, how many of those businesses are you
still invested in and involved in?
(05:20):
Yes. So Craigie, over six years,
every year I could pick up potentially up to a dozen new
businesses. Now not every one of those
businesses that we invest in ends up going through and
completing the deal. Some of them decide it wasn't
all they were cracked up to be. They didn't want to do this.
Some of them don't pass their due diligence.
But a lot of those businesses I have stayed in as a slightly
longer term investor than maybe there's a lot of people
(05:42):
ordinarily ward with business. Generally any investor coming in
might take a three to five year outlook.
I'm still invested in businessesthat I invested in in my first
year because more than anything,those businesses still want me
in that business and my motivation is maybe a bit
different to some other people that sit there.
I want to help that business on that journey.
And if I feel like I'm in a position to still continue
(06:02):
helping, I'd rather do that thancashing my chips and make a bit
of money and move on to the nextone.
I've never been that make a bit of money and move on to the next
one. I, I, I get my kicks and my my
cups filled up from knowing I'vehelped those entrepreneurs and
that is worth so much more in mylife to the money that I make on
business deals. What, what is your role?
(06:22):
I mean, because that's the way we never see, you know, once
you've done the deal, assume youknow, some of them drop by the
wayside. But if you've done the deal,
you've invested, what do you then do?
Or is it different for each? The best way I can describe
being an investor or certainly how I approach it, is it's a
little bit like being an auntie,Right.
So I remember when my sister hadher first baby, you know, it was
(06:43):
great because I could turn up. I was like, oh, yeah, this is
how you burp the baby. Yeah.
Oh, give me the lovely cuddles. Isn't that lovely?
Oh, that poo's a funny colour. I think you want to look into
it. Look into that.
And then at the end of the night, I would, oh, give her a
nice little kiss. There you go.
That's your problem. Now you have the sleepless
night, you have the worry. You're the parent.
I'm just the lovely auntie. And that's what being an
investor in a business is like for me.
(07:05):
I get to come in. I get to share my positive
experiences. I get to give give that
entrepreneur all the advice thatI've got.
It's up to them whether or not they take it and listen to it
and implement it in their business.
I'm not there to run their business for them.
I'm not there to hand hold them.I'm there to be a mentor, to be
a coach, to be a role model, to support them, to stand with them
on that journey as they succeed in their own business.
(07:27):
You know, I don't parent my niece.
I support my sister to parent her daughter.
And I think that's the big difference.
And is that what you sort of distilled in the book?
I mean, the, the, the book is, is a series of little lessons
that don't take long to read, but it's sort of that are
intended as sort of a weekly class in which people have a
task and some homework. And, and something to think
(07:50):
about is, is that essentially what you know what you're
telling your businesses as well?So here's the thing, I've got a
lot of stories, right? I am like, that's what I love to
do. I learn through hearing other
people's experiences and storiesand fables.
That's what's always worked for me.
And I have the privilege of being able to travel all over
the world and getting invited tostand on big stages and speak to
(08:12):
10s of thousands of entrepreneurs and share those
stories in the hope that it makes a difference in those
businesses. And I know that every time I do
that, I look around the room andyou can see when one of those
stories really resonates and somebody makes the connection of
that's very similar to what's happening in my life.
And how can I take the learning away from what Sarah did to
(08:32):
benefit my life. So I sat down one day and I
planned out hear all the storiesI want to share and I had around
50 of them and I thought right one a week, one a week if I
distill down to one a week. Turn each one into a lesson.
Turn each one into a lesson. What?
About your own story then, I mean, where did your
entrepreneurialism come from? Because you didn't come from a
business, family or anything like.
(08:53):
That did you so interestingly, you know, people often say are
entrepreneurs born or made and Iactually don't don't know how
that works in mining, but both my parents were entrepreneurs.
I just would never have described them as entrepreneurs
because that was a big fancy word that a kid from a pit
village in the North East of England and wouldn't he used OK,
but my mum and dad ran their ownshop in our village, right.
(09:14):
So I grew up in an entrepreneurial family there.
There is no line where our family finished and that
business started it all just weaved into one.
We would get a a painter and decorate and knock on our, you
know, family door at 10:00 at night because they needed a tin
of paint mixing and my mum wouldput a dressing gown on, open the
shop up and go and mix them in apaint.
That that is that was our life. And I often think if if you're
(09:36):
being an entrepreneur, it's not a career choice, it's a
lifestyle choice. You have to be prepared to live
that life because it's not a case of whether you turn off at
5:00 or 7:00, you don't switch off.
There's not a switch off for an entrepreneur.
It's a responsibility that you carry with you all the time.
And if you're prepared to take that route, the rewards can be
(09:57):
absolutely enormous, but the risks are also big that go with
it. So there's very, you know, it's
not everybody who's wired the way to be that you need to be to
be an entrepreneur. But because I'd seen that
lifestyle in my parents, I grew up knowing that's what I want to
do. I want to be in control of my
own destiny. I want to be in charge of what I
do. I don't want to answer to
somebody else. I'm going to start my own
business. And so do you know, do you have
(10:19):
a string of failures that we don't know about behind you or
or or did the first big idea work?
Yeah, so, so for most people, they start several businesses
before they found the one that worked.
And for me, Crafter's Companion was my first business and took
off and took off massively quitequickly.
And I think I, I, because I'd never experienced failure, I
(10:42):
didn't know what to do in that situation.
And actually a couple of years ago, I'd sold the majority stake
in the business by this point toinvestors because I'd moved on
to the next stage of my career and I was investing in other
businesses. And so Crafter's Companion was
just a small part of my life then.
And, and an investment group took on that business.
I still stayed a minority shareholder, but they then
(11:02):
didn't lead the business to success.
And, and, and just before Christmas, they put the business
into administration. And I was faced with the really
difficult decision of do I let that business go into
administration or do I buy it back?
And I undertake the turn around knowing that I'm undertaking a
turn around in the most difficult economic climate I've
ever seen in my lifetime. And I think most people would
(11:25):
have run for the hills at that point.
But it's the people, the, the people that mattered, the, the,
the 100 plus staff that were still in that business at that
time. Most of them were people I'd
recruited into that business andthen I deeply cared about so
much, and I felt like I owed it to them to take a roll on the
dice and to buy this business back and to work my little socks
off building that business back up.
So I feel like I've experienced failure now, but in a different
(11:49):
capacity, somebody else. But I'm still picking up the
pieces from it and I'm still taking the learnings.
And so it's been quite the whirlwind couple of months, I
can tell you. But I, I think a lot of people
sort of who, who sort of play around with the idea of, oh,
I've got an idea on this and an idea of that.
I just don't know where to start.
Yes. And they kind of think, well,
you must you, you, you've got tohave loads of money to start a
(12:10):
business. Where do I Where do I get money?
So let me do what do you do? First myth, right?
So when I started the business and I had five grands worth of
savings that I'd saved from doing my year, my year's work
placement. And I remember my first product,
I got a quote to get it off the ground and to get it
manufactured and it was 30,000 lbs.
And I had five grand. So at that point, most people
(12:32):
either give up or they go and remortgage their house, take out
massive loans, whatever it is, go into debt for that 30,000 LB.
Neither of those were an option for me.
I wasn't going into debt and I wasn't giving up on this.
So there's always more than one way to skin a cat.
And in my the way I did it was instead of, you know, making the
product in plastic and making two or three pound a unit
(12:53):
selling it, I got the maiden MDFin me dad's mates garage making
a quid profit on each one. Right.
And it wasn't the glamorous backto the business that I envisaged
and it wasn't where I wanted thebusiness to be.
But it got me started. And then once you started, then
once I'd made enough profit, I'dsold enough envelopers as they
were to then reinvest and build a plastic wall.
(13:13):
That's how I built my business in the early years.
I didn't want investment, I didn't want debt.
So I just built the business slower and was in control of all
the growth all the time so. You did it with that 5000 lbs.
Did you or did you borrow a small amount?
I didn't even my my mum and dad offered to lend me money.
I didn't want them to go into any debt for it.
We weren't a well healthy familyjust because they were
entrepreneurs running their own business.
It was a tiny little business. It was the village shop.
(13:36):
So I didn't want them to have that pressure for my business.
But I think the difference for me is I was only 21 and I think
you have a different appetite torisk when you don't have a
mortgage to pay, you don't have dependents.
I didn't have a job that I had to give up to pursue my
business. I was doing this as a side
hustle while I was at university.
And it's that side hustle that Iturned into what could become a
(13:57):
full time job for myself. And I think that is that's why I
spend a lot of time and with young people saying, do you
know, you've got an idea? Why can you not try it now?
Why, why, why is now not the right time?
Why wait till you've built a career or you've, you've got a
mortgage to pay everything like that, Then it's a huge risk that
you're taking. Why not try it now?
And I always say to people, start first as a side hustle.
That's the best thing you can dode risk as much as possible.
(14:19):
Start as a side hustle and buildfrom there.
I mean, because we often talk about Britain as a sort of as,
as a, you know, a nation of shopkeepers, that small
businesses are the engine that that drives the country.
But I, I, I think the small, thesmall businesses of now and of
the future are, are, are of a different kind in a way.
You know, it's, it's not just about retail or, you know, the
(14:42):
traditional kinds of businesses that we've seen since the post
war, post war world and people sort of wrestling with, you
know, big manufacturers, China, the tech companies and kind of
wondering where where small business fits into that.
So, you know, what do you advisepeople who want to be
(15:02):
entrepreneurs in the current climate?
It is the thing that's driving change is the pace, the pace at
which the world is developing. You know, I, I'm a business
owner, I can't keep, I can't keep up with the pace of change
with, with the artificial intelligence in this world.
And it's terrifying. But I think for a lot of
businesses, this the principles behind running a business are
(15:24):
the same whether it was 3 generations ago running a shop
or a or a small farm or holding or businesses now that are
starting or purely Internet based.
I see a lot of people starting side hustles on Etsy, for
example, or, you know, building up a business on social media.
It's just the world is just different.
But the principles behind driving and running a business
(15:45):
have never and will never change.
Just the world in which that business operates needs to
change. So I also go back to the core
principles I. Mean, it's interesting that you
talked about the difficulties, but they've not necessarily
been, you know, governmental, you know, are there things that
you think could change around you, around the environments
(16:05):
that would make life easier for entrepreneurs?
There's always things that are going to make life easier for
entrepreneurs and a lot of business owners are complaining
about the government, the policies and the taxation.
Yes, all of that would massivelyhelp and make a bigger
difference. However, the biggest if I look
at what's made the biggest difference in my entrepreneurial
journey, it's not been what the government's done or what the
(16:26):
taxation policies have been. It's been the people I surround
myself with. I I'm a firm believer that you
are a product of the people you surround yourself with and I'm
really lucky in that I've never been shy to knock on people's
doors and ask people to mentor me or to get myself in with
business groups and to surround myself with other successful
business people because that rubs off.
That's the beauty of it, that rubs off.
(16:46):
It's like when I join Dragons Den.
What a phenomenal opportunity for a 35 year old lass to sit
alongside some of the biggest business moguls in the country
and learn from them as she's wanting to develop her skills as
a, as an investor. That that was the biggest
learning curve I could go through and I soaked up every
second of it. And I always say to people now
(17:06):
surround yourself with the rightpeople.
You know, if you, if you're in business or you want to be in
business, go and inject yourselfinto various opportunities,
business groups, read books fromother people who've succeeded at
this. Go to talks, you know, get
involved because that will rub off and that will make you
successful. It's all about having the
positive mindset and and learning from these people so
that you can develop. It's 1 positive mindset.
(17:29):
Are you a believer in fake it till you make it?
Oh yes, I am. Do you know what I used to do
when I first started? I can remember when I used to
advertise in the back of some ofthe craft magazines and you
could take a little advert in the directory at the back for
£30 or you could step up and a quarter page would be so much or
a half page and a full page. And I always had the attitude of
(17:50):
I'd rather advertise in one craft magazine with one full
page ad than 4 magazines with a quarter page ad.
Even though four times more people would see that quarter
page ad. I'd look like a big deal to the
people who saw me. And it was always that fake it
till you make it come across as the bigger business until you
actually get there. You know it's people only know
what you tell them as well. You know you, it's how you
(18:12):
introduce yourself. I hate people who off with I'm
just so and so you're not just anything.
You're this be proud of it. Shout about it.
If if you don't think it's a bigdeal, who else is going to think
it's a big deal? And so, have you ever suffered
from imposter syndrome? Absolutely.
And I, and I think, I think everybody suffers from imposter
syndrome a little bit, but womenespecially, we are suckers for
(18:33):
it. And do you know the the worst
time in my life, I think I suffered from imposter syndrome
was probably when I joined the Den and I sat in that chair
thinking, Oh my God, that that that is actually Deborah Meaden.
The Deborah Meaden I'm sitting next to and I'm supposed to sit
here and pretend that I'm as good as she is because I'm
sitting alongside her as a dragon.
And I didn't feel that in myself.
I didn't feel like I was good enough to be there.
(18:56):
And the only way I got over thisand it and it was self
reflection. It's not like somebody ever
pointed this out to me one day, but I take great delight and
point it out to others. I didn't decide that I got to be
a dragon. That was not my call.
I'm not qualified to make that decision.
It was made by the executive producer who recruited me.
It was signed off by the commissioner.
It went up to the head of the BBC, signed off by the BBC
(19:17):
board. They decided who got to be a
dragon, who was good enough. They obviously felt like they'd
seen something in me that was right to be a dragon.
They felt like I was good enough.
My job is to sit there in that chair and show them that they
made the right choice not to second guess them because I'm
not qualified to decide who's good enough to be a dragon.
I mean that that works if you'vebeen appointed to something like
that, but a lot of entrepreneurshave to get in the room.
(19:41):
Yeah. So what what's your advice on?
But they've. Got in.
That when you're in the room andyou're still thinking, I don't
know what I'm doing here. If you've made it into that
room, however you've got into that room, you deserve to be in
that room. What's the point in telling
yourself that you don't? Where's that going to get you?
How's that going to help you succeed?
If somebody else has seen something in you to invite you
(20:02):
to sit around that board table or to give you the opportunity
to come to that event or what, whatever that is, it's your job
to pick it up and run with it. If you let the feelings of self
doubt creep in, they will monopolise your mindset and you
will perform at the level that you think you're going to
perform. If you go into there with a
positive mindset that you can dothis.
You will succeed at this. You know, I, like I said, I sat
(20:25):
there on the 1st scene of Dragon's Den thinking all my
life how, how did I get to be here?
I'm not good enough to be here. By the time I was six years in,
I was sitting at that chair. I think BBC, you're bloody lucky
to have me. And that's the difference in the
mindset. But it it's taken six years of
self coaching and self development to change my own
mindset because nobody else is going to change it for me.
(20:46):
It's within my gift to change it.
It's only me can do something about it.
What do you think? I mean, apart from sort of
people like you sharing their stories, how, how do you think
we as a country could, you know,encourage more
entrepreneurialism amongst youngpeople, more bold, you know,
decisions more daring? Yeah.
Do you know what I think as a asa country, we just don't
(21:07):
celebrate success enough as well.
I remember, I remember doing a lot of business in America when
I was, I was a lot younger when I first, well, I still do now,
but when I first started out going to America a lot.
They celebrate success in such abigger way.
We, we, we're so humble. We don't like to shout about
what what we do. And I, I don't think that is a
good culture. I don't think that is a positive
(21:28):
thing. Don't get me wrong, I think it's
good to be humble at times. I don't think it is in an
entrepreneurial world. And I think the more that we can
big ourselves up and it's, it's very unbritish to do that.
But I always take the opportunity and that's why I
think entrepreneurial groups andnetwork groups are so good
because other people might big you up where you're not prepared
to so. Have you learned to do that?
Yes. And do you know what I'm sitting
(21:49):
here and and do as I say, not asI do because I still can't sit
out there and go, do you know what?
I'm absolutely awesome because Idon't.
It's just not, it's not me, it'snot humble, it's not British and
I would never do it. But do you know what?
As long as I'm thinking it inside.
But what I do do is I go out of my way to do that in others.
You know, they always say you should, you know, you should
(22:10):
surround yourself with people who in a room full of
opportunity, would go out of their way to mention your name.
Those are the sort of people that you want to be friends
with. And I said it earlier, you are a
product of the people you surround yourself with.
Choose wisely. Choose really, really wisely.
That's what's really paid off inmy career.
So I mean, if, if, if the Den has been such a big part of your
(22:31):
business maturity as well, by the sound of it, why are you
leaving really? I mean, have you, have you been
seduced by the glamour of TV because you're going off to do a
quiz for ITV? Do you know what it is?
It is I want to do everything. I, I love every facet of my
life. It's like what I did strictly,
(22:51):
you know, and someone came alongand they said did you want to do
strictly? And in a blink of an eye I was
like, yes. And at the time I'm juggling,
I've got young kids. I've got a, a multi £1,000,000
business operating on three timezones, you know, in in with 250
staff. I'm, I'm trying to juggle an
investment portfolio. I've still got my BBC
commitments. I was presenting on Morning Live
a lot at the moment and then allof a sudden I have to fit 50 or
(23:13):
60 hours of dancing in a week and travel up and down the
country. But I wanted to do it so badly I
just said yes. And the thing with Dragon's Den
is when I went into it, I assumed I'd do 2 years.
That's what everybody else before me seemed to have done a
couple of years. And then they change it out and
they just kept asking me to comeback and I kept saying yes.
And you know, my kids are getting a little bit older now.
They're starting to challenge mefrom being away from home a lot.
(23:35):
And the business needs me. You know, taking back Crafters
Companion this year, I'd wound down the involvement that I had
in the business and all of a sudden I've ramped it back up at
pace and it's unfair on me to put the business second to
something I'm doing because I want to do it.
I always call Dragons Den my side hustle or my hobby because
it's what I did. You know, I earned my money in
(23:55):
my own business. Dragons Den for me was always
the side hustle. It was the hobby.
And this this year, I just looked at it and it's I always
describe Dragons, Dragons Den like an iceberg.
The bit that you see is the bit at the top, the filming.
And yes, it's only 17 days of filming.
If it was only 17 days of filming, I would have begged,
borrowed and stealed 17 days from my life to make up because
(24:16):
I love it so much. But it's not.
It's then up to a dozen businesses.
You're committing to become a part of their family.
That's another dozen people who have me on speed dial who want
want to WhatsApp me on a regularbasis, who need me to understand
what's going on in their business, what's going on in
their life, and advise and add value.
And if I'm not in a position where I can give them do a good
job of doing that, it's not right to do it.
(24:37):
So I chatted with the BBC and, Imean, they were pretty
devastated. You know, they love me being a
dragon as much as I love being adragon.
And So what we agreed was this year, I needed to put my focus
on crafter's companion from in abusiness capacity.
I couldn't take on another chunkof businesses.
But that was not me closing the door.
That was me just saying this year at this moment.
(24:57):
Yeah, I. Mean you, you mentioned
strictly, I mean, you and I bothdone strictly and, and it is
sort of life changing in the moment.
But but down the line, people will still say to you, you know
what, what you know, was it really life changing?
Has it, has it still changed your life?
And I have to keep reminding myself, I think about what, what
I got from strictly and and thenI and then I remember and then,
(25:20):
and then it's, and it's good. But you've talked about how you
learnt about, well, I suppose focus and being in the moment
and and performance as a result.Yeah, I think one of one of the
biggest things for me, there's two big things I learnt from
Strictly and one of them was wasbeing present.
So probably same as you. I had to fit Strictly in amongst
(25:42):
a really busy life when a lot ofthe other contestants could drop
everything else in their life and just train 1416 hours a day.
And I was really jealous of those people because I would
have loved to have done that andgiven it my all.
And I just couldn't. I could give Ali Ash 6 hours a
day. That's all I could give him from
six. I used to, I used to get up at
5:00. I used to train from 6:00 AM
till midday every day. And I remember him saying to me
(26:03):
one week, he's like, I've never,ever known anybody with the
capacity to pick up steps as quickly as you are.
I can't understand. This they all say that.
Do you know, do you know what I said to him?
I think it was is he's never ever trained with anybody else
before 9:00 in the morning. He didn't know that there were
two 6:00 in the day, you know, and, and I had to do it at 6:00
in the morning. It's the only time I had time.
(26:24):
But what what would happen is I'd get to late 8:00 and at
8:00, my phone would start pinging and buzzing and I'd be
checking my watch and, and then all of a sudden between 6:00 and
8:00, there's nothing else goingon in my life.
He had 100% of my focus from 8:00 onwards.
He didn't because my mind would be somewhere else.
I was there in body, but I wasn't there in mind.
And he said to me a couple of weeks saying you're brilliant
between 6:00 and 8:00 AM. At 8:00, something changes.
(26:46):
You're not quite the same. And when I realised what it was
is I had to take off the Apple Watch, I had to put my phone to
one side and I had to commit to him.
I'm just being here. I'm not being available to the
business. I'm not doing.
I am in here in this room. If I can only give you 6 hours,
the least I can do is give you all of me for.
Six hours. Have you applied that to your
life since? I've had to.
That's the biggest, that's the biggest learning I've taken
(27:07):
forward, being present in whatever you do.
I can't give anything I do in mylife as much time as I'd like to
give it, so I've got to make sure that in the time I do give
it, it's got all of me. So at least I know that I'm
making up for the lack of time. It's quality over quantity.
And are you still in in the world where you think you might
start another business or, or oror is your life set now?
(27:29):
Do you know, that's, that's why I was so desperate to get into
investing because most entrepreneurs are serial
entrepreneurs. They they get their kicks out of
starting businesses and buildingbusinesses and then when they
get bored, they'll sell that business and move on to the next
one. I don't feel like that.
I am in love with crafters companion.
I love the industry, I love the customers.
(27:49):
I love the feeling of craft and I would never, even though I'd
I'd kind of majority exited thatbusiness, I wouldn't have had
the appetite to start again in that industry because if I did,
I would have been competing against my own business and and
all the people that I cared about working in that business,
I would be there competition. So I would never start up again
in the industry and then I think, well, what's the point in
starting again in a different industry?
(28:10):
I've spent 20 years understanding that industry back
to front inside out. I challenge you to show me a
single person in the world who understands more about the craft
industry than I do. You know you you couldn't I I
genuinely don't believe that if.You don't worry about somebody
coming in and stealing your, your, your, your market share.
Someone's saying, well, that, you know, I could do what
they're doing. Let them try.
Let them try. Because because you that's
(28:31):
essentially what you did and yousaw, you saw crafting and
thought I can do that better. Opportunity, yeah.
So. So what do you do to make sure
that doesn't someone doesn't come and steal your lunch do?
You know, I always say to people, focus on your own stuff,
not somebody else's. If you spend all day, every day
looking over your shoulder at what everybody else is doing,
you're not keeping your eye on the prize and what you're doing.
I always worked on the basis of we're so good at what we do,
(28:51):
we're just going to get our headdown and we're going to focus on
that. We're going to do that really
well and let everybody else comeand copy us because they aren't
good enough to have their own ideas.
And I think that is if you have that mindset in business and I
try and instillate into a lot ofmy investments, stop worrying
about everybody else. You know, if you do a good job,
they will copy you. They say flattery is everything.
And I know it's it's an easy thing to say and a difficult
(29:12):
thing to live. I've lived enough.
Trust me. If you focus on your own thing,
that's where you'll succeed. Sorry, Davis.
Thank you very much indeed. I hope you enjoyed that.
If you did, then give this podcast a rating and then other
people will find it. You can watch all of these
interviews on the Channel 4 NewsYouTube channel.
Our producer is Sylvia Maresca. Until next time, bye bye.
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