September 26, 2025 • 55 mins
Husam Zomlot was born in a refugee camp in Gaza and has since become one of the most prominent Palestinian voices on the world stage. In 2017, Zomlot was appointed envoy to the United States, until the Trump administration shut down the PLO mission in Washington. The following year he became Head of the Palestinian Mission in London, a role that has now been elevated to Ambassador after the UK’s formal recognition of the State of Palestine. He has been a leading voice for Gaza throughout the recent conflict, while also enduring devastating personal loss, with members of his own family killed in the violence.
In this episode of Ways to Change the World, Husam Zomlot speaks with Krishnan Guru-Murthy about his childhood, the growing recognition of a Palestinian state and the hope for him and his people.
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(00:00):
The rest of the world is finallyrecognizing the state of
Palestine, including the UK. It took a genocide for that to
happen. Many people think the two state
solution is a Palestinian demand.
May I correct this? The two state solution was a
Palestinian concession. Wherever I go in the West, not
just in the UK, Israel needs security.
I OK and we don't need security.Why don't you say Palestine
(00:20):
needs security? And who provides us with
security and how can we protect our people?
We will not establish a state asa function of what Israel wants.
We will establish a state as a function of what the Palestinian
people want and deserve. I want to see our children and
playgrounds in schools. The honor of my life really is
to represent the Palestinian people.
(00:46):
Hello and welcome to Ways to Change the World.
I'm Christian Gurimurphy, and this is the podcast in which we
talk to extraordinary people about the big ideas in their
lives and the events that have helped shape them.
My guest today was born in a refugee camp in Gaza and has
since become one of the most prominent Palestinian voices on
the world stage, an academic strategist, advisor to
presidents and a diplomat. In 2017, Hussain Zolmos was
(01:10):
appointed envoy to the United States until the Trump
administration shut down the PLOmission in Washington.
The following year, he became head of the Palestinian mission
in London, a role that has now been elevated to ambassador
after the UK's formal recognition of the State of
Palestine. He has been a leading voice for
Gaza throughout the recent conflicts, whilst also enduring
(01:30):
devastating personal loss, with members of his own family killed
in the violence. Hussain Zamloz, welcome to the
podcast. You've spent your whole life
really trying to change the world, so give me the vision of
how you want to change it. By focusing on the true owners
of this world, the people. By focusing on the human aspect,
(01:53):
too much focus has been bought on non human things.
All the way now to the AI. By going back to the very idea
of universal values, by making sure that we complement one
another rather than substitute with one another.
You know, I, I, I did my studieshere in London in the 90s, in
(02:14):
the late 90s and things were heading in the right direction.
The UN and the rules we created after the horror of the Second
World War was, was rather takingshape, intervening in many
places, resolving conflicts. Trade was seen to be a way of
friendship between nations, not a tool of war and sanctions and
(02:38):
and punishment. And what have you the world has
become then, or was becoming, ifyou remember your generation and
mine, global village, people whoare able to travel, people who
are able to interact, people. And then something hit this
globe by the beginning of this century, 2001, and all that
(03:00):
happened since then, and we havebeen on a decline.
And today, 1/4 of a century later in 2025, I'm really
concerned. I'm concerned that we are losing
that very principle of universalvalues, that we are all equal
under the law, that what brings us together is much bigger than
(03:20):
what divides us. And I I see the disintegration
of the very idea of a global system, international law, the
holding of the idea that only the powerful what matters, the
undermining of the very principles and bases we want to
see this globe perform. And Palestine has been in the
core of all this. And regrettably, Israel has
(03:43):
literally made mockery of all that we have been building over
the last 70 years. And the result is devastating,
is devastating, and it will be far reaching than just
Palestine. And this is a moment when we
have to regain that world that we want to see and make sure
that we inherit something for our children different than what
we are living right now. But you were you were born into
(04:03):
fundamentally unequal circumstances.
You know your family had been moved by the creation of Israel.
So what was your sense of what equal rights were?
The, the, the very sense is thissanctity of human life that's
the bare, bare base of everything, that human life
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should never be disposable, thatthere is no such a thing as, you
know, different colours of blood.
We are all the children of one God.
There's no, no one is chosen. We are all chosen, all of us,
and we have the same rights and that supremacy, racism, bigotry
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is the biggest enemy of the human race and not just in
Palestine and and Israel. It's throughout history.
Look when it takes shape this superior ideas that we are a
superior race. Look at the consequences of the
Second World War. Look at the horrors of the Nazi
regime. Look at the most heinous crime
in modern history, the Holocaustand 6,000,000 Jews were murdered
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because of that. And as a child, I was really
growing up just feeling that whyI was born in a very exceptional
why the tent and why the UN flagand what's with all this food
being distributed to us and why my school was different than
what I see elsewhere. And many questions.
(05:36):
And all these questions always brought me back to the very idea
that we have to fight for ourselves and others.
It's the same fight. It's the same cause with an Rafa
where I was born, or in Latin America or Africa or in Asia or
anywhere. It's the same fight.
So the the short answer to your question, it is the sanctity of
(05:57):
human lives and rights. Did you feel now life in Gaza is
being treated as disposable? I don't feel I, I, I know, I
see, I follow. I call my family.
I still have family. Whoever left of my family, I've
lost 10s of them. We even lost count.
Now you've lost. Count no.
The last time we counted from myextended family was 106, and my
(06:21):
family is small by size, by numbers, in proportionate term,
that's a huge number, but I think the number is much bigger.
We still don't know how many of my own extended family are still
buried under their their homes. What What happens when you get
that news via the family of another loss?
(06:44):
Two things. First I I cry.
I feel very sad. And second, I feel a sense of
responsibility. We have failed them.
I have failed them. The world has failed them.
I feel a sense of like, how could we let this happen?
Really? That's what I feel.
(07:04):
Especially most of those who were killed were young and
children, and they should be protected by us.
And if I call myself an ambassador representing their
occupied state, I should have been able to do something about
it. But I also think about the
world. I mean, while the world now has
finally, the rest of the world is finally recognizing the state
of Palestine, including the UK. It took a genocide for that to
(07:28):
happen. And still the world failed to
stop the genocide and let alone prevent the genocide to start
with. So as a Palestinian, a boy from
a refugee camp, my family in Gaza being killed and murdered,
all the way to being my people'sambassador to the US and now to
the UK, being part of this international diplomacy and
(07:51):
system, believing that in the very end we have to resolve our
issues collectively, multilaterally.
I have many questions now. I have really many questions and
it really attacks the very fundamental belief in me that
brought me to the LSC here at the London School of Economics.
And it brought me from where thefirst job I had, I was educated
(08:13):
as an undergraduate in Palestinein Berzette University.
And when I graduated economics, I have studied economics, taught
economics, research economics all of my life.
So I'm an intruder into politics, for your information.
But the moment I graduated from Beerset University, the one
place I wanted to join was not governments or even, you know,
private sector. It was the UN.
(08:35):
So I was a UN officer official for four years, five years,
because I always believed since I was child, maybe because of
that story I just told you. I was fed by the UN, educated by
the UN, and I always saw the UN.You know what?
I'll tell you a small little child story.
I almost told the UN when I was 567 years old.
(08:56):
I also saw the UN flag. The Blue Flag was my flag, my
national flag, because it was the only flag flying over the
houses, flying over the school, the clinics, because it was
Onoroa schools, UN schools, The even the cars that used to come
to the the 4 by 4, you know, youown cars would have the flag.
And as a child I even thought the drivers and the passengers
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of these cars are my army, you see.
So the moment I graduated and I was to offer myself to the
workplace, to the market, the only thing I could think of is
to join that army, is to join that army of the globe, that
army of the world that come to enforce rules equally on all of
us that will save all of us. So for me, the consequences of
(09:38):
of what is happening in Gaza, the genocide, the mass murder,
the mass destruction and the mass starvation, the
consequences on my set of beliefs is absolutely
devastatingly massive. And I am trying my best to hold
the belief, to keep that light in my heart that no, in the very
end, we have to continue fighting for that system to get
(10:00):
hold, for the very idea of a global just first system to
continue the problem. I tell myself from time to time,
I look at the mirror, the problem for some is not in the
law. The law is good.
It's not even in the institutions of the law as in
the ICC and the ICJ. Look at them.
They are being sanctioned. Now.
The problem is in the few powerful countries who want to
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be selective when it comes to the application of of the law.
Who wants to put Israel above, above every rule, above every
piece of law? Who wants to keep the immunity
for Israel? And then you think, no, you keep
fighting those few powerful individuals who are literally
destroying everything we want tobuild as a community of nations.
(10:42):
Do do you believe the UN is still a functioning institution?
I mean, when you look at the General Assembly and you look at
this parade of speeches and you see how Trump delivers his his
message to the world, is it still a viable way to solve
problems? We don't have a better
alternative and it was effectiveand it's it's still effective.
(11:04):
I mean, I just described to you my experience with honor war and
honor War is a you an organization that was
established to take care of Palestinian refugees while until
the our right to be, you know, our issue to be resolved, our
right of return to be fulfilled.Now, Anurwa is the most
extensive, most effective way ofdistributing assistance, food,
(11:25):
education, medical services, what have you treatment most
effective, by the way. And that's exactly why Israel
has attacked Anurwa. So the issue is not how much the
UN is effective. And if there was some
shortcomings, and I'm sure thereare, there are in this
organization or that we can fix it.
The issue is in the view who seein the UN as their enemy.
(11:48):
You see, I can imagine Israelis listening to your your answer
and your story about your childhood and saying, well, how
appropriate they thought the UN was his flag because the UN is
on their side. You know, they believe the UN is
biased. They believe the UN is pro
Palestinian. No, because they say more than
that. They say pro terror.
Come on, Come on. A child is a child.
Yeah, a child is a child. He sees a flag.
(12:10):
But that's a good story about everyone one of us.
Israel was established by the UN.
The birth certificate of Israel came from the UN.
The UN has helped Israel so muchthroughout its its journey.
But the moment the UN stood against Israeli unlawful
exercise, unlawful policies, thegenocide and until honorable was
(12:32):
able to distribute food, which is which is exactly what Israel
doesn't want. Israel wants to use starvation
as a method of war, period. Israel wants to use starvation
as a way of pushing people out of Gaza.
So the moment the UN became in the way of the Israeli design of
the Israeli campaign for erasure, annihilation and
extermination, the UN had to go.The UN is bad guy, OK, I was 5-6
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years old. I told you a couple of years
later I I knew that this is my flag, the Palestine flag, the
four colours, and I was very proud of it.
But my flag and the Blue Flag should be always next to each
other because the whole idea of Palestine is to be part of the
community of nations. The whole idea is that you are a
bridge between East and West. The whole idea is that you are
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so proud of being part of this international community and you
would adhere to the provisions and the rules of the
international community. Now a moment, a member of that
international system is not adhering.
We need to make them comply and adhere to this.
So the argument is all he thought that the UN, this is
ridiculous. The UN is for everybody because
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as much as I was a refugee in Rafah, the UN was providing for
refugees in Syria, for Syrian refugees, they were providing in
Latin America and Africa, everywhere.
So all these children would havefelt they have a Big Brother in
the UN and they have given thesechildren our future.
And this is exactly what every other children anywhere in the
world should be receiving. And should Israelis at one point
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in time would need internationalhelp, they should be granted.
You, you, you said it has taken a genocide as defined by the UN
Commission recently to get Britain, France and all these
other nations to recognize the state of Palestine.
What? What does that tell you, if
that's true about the way the Western world sees Palestinian
(14:27):
lives? Yeah, we've spoken about this.
I I have been talking about it. There was a great deal of
dehumanization of the Palestinian people, a great deal
that our lives are literally, literally disposable, that we
are some somehow children of Alice, our God.
And that's that's why always, always the issue of condemnation
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gets me a bit. You know, I challenge all this
not because. Condemnation of Hamas.
Of, of, of, of, of, of, of, of, of targeting Israeli civilians.
And you know, let me say this, we condemn the targeting of, of
civilians from all side. But the problem with the West is
always with the old sides. They don't accept us to say from
all sides, they want us to specify the killing of Israeli
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civilians when in fact Palestinian civilians have been
killed all along before the 7th of October, after the 7th of
October and the conversation doesn't pick up.
And that tells you all you need to know.
And that's why since the 7th of October and before the 7th of
October, I've been saying the 6th of October, the UN came up
with a report on international organizations.
That was the deadliest year for the Palestinian children and and
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the West Bank. Nothing.
Gaza even. Why didn't you bring me here?
Why didn't you bring an Israeli official?
Listen, I, I, I go all over the UK now and other countries and
I'm I'm I sit on, you know, in conversations like this.
Lastly was Chatham House and many other, you know, think
thanks media, what have you. We always get to ask, do you
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condemn? Always the Palestinians and
Israelis would come just after us.
Actually, few days after I was interviewed by the chair of the
director of the CEO of Chatham House, the Israeli president was
sitting on the same seat. The question Do you condemn the
murder of more than 65,000 innocent Palestinians, including
20,000 children? Was never asked, was never
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asked, still is never asked. That tells you the story of how
much there is a devalue or devaluing of Palestinian life.
Why? I don't understand.
Why is it why? Why do you think what changes
the why is it? Is it religious reasons?
No, Palestine is the birth placeof Christianity.
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I mean, Jesus was born in Palestine, Bethlehem, the the
Church of Nativity, the the Church of the Holy Sepulchre.
So the heritage for Palestine and Palestine is made of
Palestinian Christians and Muslims.
We are we are the original Christians and Palestine is
sacred to all religions, including, of course, to Islam,
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as Prophet Muhammad is believed to have ascended by Muslims, of
course, to to to heavens. So it's very sacred Al Aqsa
Mosque and and we should take pride in that.
I mean, it's a source of pride and Palestine before the the
establishment of Israel was really, really, really, this is
go back to history was the example of tolerance of
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coexistence of one nation. That's why you will never know.
You're speaking to me. You will never know as a
Palestinian who's a Muslim and who's a Christian.
The ambassador, the two ambassadors before we were
Christians, the one before me immediately was Armenian.
They only came to Palestine 100 years ago.
They took refuge in Palestine. We open our arms completely to
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the Armenian community to protect them.
And the same thing happened after the Holocaust and the
atrocities that were committed. We open our homes and our hearts
because the Palestinian people are so proud of them receiving
everybody. Why I'm saying this?
One of them of the Armenians became our ambassador to the UK
and our foreign minister now, now is one of them.
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So this is the Palestine I'm talking about and this is the
kind of world. So we are not just preaching,
this is who we are and this is this is how we do it and this is
how we are proud. She's Palestinian, our foreign
minister, our ambassador here, the Armenian was, was was a
proud representative of the people of Palestine.
And the one before him, Afif Safia was Catholic, here in
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London was Catholic. So we come from a background in
the society that what we care about is our humanity, not our
faith, not our colour, not our height.
This is the heart of the matter.That should apply everywhere.
I don't. You know, my ears get painful
when I hear all this dirty talk about, you know, the, the, the,
that human beings are a threat. Palestinian refugees are a
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threat. No, they're not threat.
Wherever they go, they are a source of pride.
I did that ceremony a couple of days ago to raise the
Palestinian flag in commemoration and marking the UK
historic regulation of the stateof Palestine.
And I said that, you know, amongthem in the in that ceremony,
there were many Palestinians coming to share that moment with
us. And I told them, look around
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you, you will see top doctors, top top the highest consultants
in the NHS. The last I counted just one
count 550 Palestinian highest consultants in the NHS.
Look at you, you'll see an innovators and, and and
entrepreneurs and what have you.I'm saying this, Krishnan, just
to say no, the UK, Europe, the West must see us for our
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humanity and what we can contribute rather than what
Israel has been feeding for 77 years now, maybe more.
That we are only a threat. No, we were the biggest
opportunity in the region and wewill be the biggest opportunity
and the reason. So yes, I have encountered so
much racism and let me stress this again, there is a lot of
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anti Palestinian racism, anti Palestinian racism.
Anti Palestinian bias, anti Palestinian bigotry.
Everywhere I went, everywhere there is always assumptions,
there is always perception, there is always an idea in the
heads of anybody that I would contact.
I would have to be on the defence all the time.
I would have to prove myself andourselves and I I would have
(20:22):
always to explain myself. And the assumption is.
As a human, to explain myself asa human when I come from a place
that exports. Humanity what?
What do you feel people assume about you?
But always, always look at this,look, look at this.
Israel is established via a a British declaration, the Balfour
Declaration, which was completely and utterly illegal,
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immoral in every sense, and a historic injustice that was
committed against our people because they gave away our land,
our land without any consultation, without any
legitimacy. Britain did not have any
legitimacy to give away a land over people without any
consultation. And then they took over
Palestine, ruled by Britain ruled Palestine from 1919 to
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1948. And they were supposed to, as
per their contract, their agreement with the League of
Nation at the time, supposed to oversee our independence.
What they oversaw was our Nakba,the ethnic cleansing of 2/3 of
the Palestinian people. So for for me to see the British
Prime Minister after all these years to stand and say we
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recognize the state of Palestine, we recognize the
inalienable, the right of the Palestinian people to self
determination, That's a historicmoment, not only for us, not
only for the Palestinian people.I said, and I say it again,
Palestine existed long before the Balfour Declaration.
Palestine will always exist and Palestine will always be there.
It's about Britain, it's about righting the wrongs and
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beginning, beginning a new chapter and moving in the very
right direction. And I said, and I say it again,
recognition is only a step, one step.
It's it's not a destination on which we need to build so many
other steps. So actually we abroot the root
cause of all this, which is the colonial occupation, the
besiegement, the oppression, theapartheid regime that is
(22:11):
established and now genocide. Right, so, so if it is only a
step you you believe this shouldbe the step towards still the
two state solution? The first and foremost thing
that we need to do right now is to end the genocide.
Our people are being literally murdered in on mass as we speak.
And you know what hurts me the most?
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At the beginning of the genocide, everybody was denying
it. Now the UN Commission comes out.
Before it was the ICJ and every time I say to ABBC anchor or
anybody, any, any media genocide, if I utter the word
genocide, they will have to say.But Israel refuses your role as
a media, you know, as an anchor,as a, as a journalist, not to
(22:55):
say what Israel says. Your role is to tell me what you
see. And Israel has preventing you,
the entire international media from accessing Gaza until now.
Two years and you haven't reallypushed back enough.
Not you. I'm not talking about you.
I'm talking and you, but I'm I'mtalking about the Western
mainstream media. Although my role, I'd say you,
you said the ICJ, the ICJ didn'tsay it's a genocide.
(23:18):
It says there's a case for genocide.
But that's that's what the courtdoes, yeah, to admit Israel, to
admit Israel for a case of genocide, they would say
plausible, of course, But then you will hear the ruling later
and it will be the. Ruling will come.
Of course it will come. So in terms of ending the
genocide in your terms, what what is your, what is your
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route? What is the next step?
First thing and foremost, of course, there are diplomatic
efforts. As we speak, there is Egypt,
Qatar and with the US for a ceasefire.
There are many proposals and every time we are very close,
Netanyahu does something. Last time he attacked Iran,
(23:58):
couple of weeks ago, he attackedQatar as usual.
By the way, the attack against Qatar, against the sovereignty
of Qatar, which was asked by theInternational Committee to play
the role of a mediator, of course, illegal, criminal and
all that, but the main idea of it for Netanyahu was to bomb the
ceasefire proposal. That's the whole idea.
He doesn't want the ceasefire. So I'm saying this to tell you,
(24:21):
and we need to push back in the diplomatic arena, but there are
other arenas. We need to make sure it happens.
So actually, Netanyahu finally complies.
I mean, the diplomatic arena clearly isn't going to work
without America, is it? Yes, yes, yes.
Well, there was a meeting between President Trump and many
regional leaders only a couple of days ago at the French of the
UN, the General Assembly anger. And it seems everybody's talking
(24:42):
positively that the President Trump wants to offer a grand
deal to end the war on Gaza, to end the genocide and to move
forward into a direction of peace.
I'm hoping that, but there are other answering your question.
We must make sure that while thediplomatic political track is
going, there is the legal track and the legal track requires the
following. Number one is accountability.
(25:03):
We must see war criminals behindbar.
As I was walking into the studio, I saw that the Slovenia
announced that Netanyahu is now persona non grata and he will
have a travel ban to Slovenia. Well, that's following the ICC
arrest warrant against Netanyahu.
Accountability is very important, my friend, because
(25:25):
without accountability, not onlyyou'll never give justice to the
victims, but you will never deter the next war criminals.
You will be setting duck for thenext genocide, and not just
against Palestinians, but against anybody.
And that's not, not just againstour children, but maybe against
your children. So we need to make sure that
accountability is upheld. This is the most significant
part of anybody who committed war crimes.
(25:46):
Anybody, any entity, all must beheld accountable.
It's about sequencing though, isn't it?
Because, because what you may find if you get to a ceasefire,
your, your demand for accountability is going to butt
up against the the reality of a political settlement and the
creation of some sort of Palestinian entity and, and, and
(26:11):
there may be a demand for reconciliation.
Well. Which denies you accountability.
Well, well, we are not the FirstNation to have gone through this
most horrible painful oppressionand murder and targeting S
Africans and the apartheid regime, many others without
(26:31):
going through the list. The list is unfortunately long,
but you always have to it's, it's not either or.
You will have to have a political resolution, but you
will have to have justice. Justice has to be in the middle
of any peacemaking. If not, if justice is not the
premise of it, it will not sustain.
And look at us. We've tried that piece, many
shots. It's failed because justice was
(26:52):
not in the centre. Can you see Israel giving
Netanyahu up to an internationalcourt?
It must, because if we want to save not only Palestinian
children, but save our international system, it was the
ICC that issued the arrest warrant, not me and not us.
And the ICC has the world judges.
This is the World Court. Once the does and let him defend
(27:13):
himself, what are you talking about?
Let him go and say I'm innocent.I didn't do anything and prove
it. The whole idea is that if you
really want to deter to deter next criminals, next war
criminals, deter next people whothink that mass murdering
people, mass destroying their homes.
I mean Gaza's gun. Do you think the world?
Gaza is true. How do you?
(27:34):
How do you how? There's a big assumption there,
isn't it? OK, How do you do this?
How do you do this? There are two ways to do this.
Either we build our own militarycapability to defend ourselves
and then ever again for us that moment is by building the
strongest army in the region anddare anybody touch our children.
Or we revert to multilateralism and international judicial
system and make sure it's the power of the globe that brings
(27:58):
about accountability and deterrence.
Which one you prefer? Which one I prefer the second.
I don't think we should build big arms.
I think the Middle East has to be an A nuclear free zone
completely starting with Israel.I think the Middle East should
focus on economic integration and on giving our people a
better opportunities. So we shouldn't go into a a
military race. So the only alternative to the
(28:20):
issue of accountability and justice is international system.
I mean as, as you know, Israel says.
But that's number one of the items.
Still, there are others. Yeah, OK.
We'll come back to it. But you know, the Israelis who
support Netanyahu and even even many in the opposition who who
oppose A Palestinian state, as many of them do, say the reason
(28:40):
you cannot have a Palestinian state, as you say, is because
you cannot have a country that could attack us.
You cannot have a country that could have an army, that could
have weapons, that could have the ability to go to war with
Israel. How are you going to overcome
that basic problem? Not you, but how will you and?
Israel, the argument is, if the argument was genuine, I'm happy
(29:02):
to discuss it. But the argument by Israel is,
is a pretext, like many other pretexts.
They just don't want to see a Palestinian state.
And Netanyahu is on the record publicly saying it every other
day. I will never allow for a
Palestinian state. Now for security.
Think with me, number one, who needs security most, we or the
occupier? The occupied or the occupier?
(29:22):
I tell you, I look at you right in your in your eyes, and I tell
you it's the occupied, it's the colonized, it's the besieged,
it's the genocide that that needs security most.
And throughout our history, and particularly in the last century
and since the the Israel was established, our security has
been impeached. We have been treated as as, as I
(29:48):
said many times as just disposable and not just in terms
of murder. You know how many thousands of
Palestinians surrounded in Israeli jail without charge,
without trial? We're just nothing.
We just come to our homes in themiddle of the night around us
and they throw us in their jailsand we can rotten for years and
years without any legal due process now.
(30:10):
So number one, we need security.And wherever I go in the West
and not just in the UK, Israel needs security, OK, And we don't
need security. Why don't you say Palestine
needs security and who provides us with security and how can we
protect our people? What is the role of the state?
What is the role of the UK as a state?
What's the number one role for any state?
The protection of its people, That's number one.
(30:32):
How do I protect our people? So we have to think of our
security. Not we will not establish a
state as a function of what Israel wants.
We will establish a state as a function of what the Palestinian
people want and deserve. It's their right.
That's the that's the social contract between the people and
the state. That's number one.
Number two, do you really think,Krishnan, that security can
(30:54):
ever, ever be an outcome of bombing like you bomb your way
to security? Well, the security or security
is an outcome of peace, an outcome of a political
resolution, an outcome of fulfillment of people's right,
an an outcome of acknowledgementof the wrongs of the past, an
outcome of having a short future.
(31:15):
If we really believe that we could have neighborly future and
we can look at the best out of us and and look think with me.
You know, Israel is a very high tech society, very well linked
to the US and the West with all the free trade arrangements and
what have you and the Silicon Valley, you know the whole and
the economy is very strong. But also we have the most
(31:37):
educated and young population, very inspiring.
And wherever they go, they buildsocieties up in the Gulf and
everywhere. Can you imagine if we let that
be, the main sort of source of insecurity will disappear.
Security will disappear. It's a pretext.
It's a pretext. Security is an outcome of
fulfilling people's right. Security for Israel is a pretext
(32:00):
to undermine and deny people's right.
When when you look at the map though, is it possible?
Is it viable as a single entity?Israel is clearly openly now
doing everything it can to make it impossible.
It is building this new E1 settlement.
It has got security control overdifferent parts of the West
(32:21):
Bank. A lot of people think the West
Bank is actually a a single entity over which Palestinians
have control. Of course it isn't.
How, when you look at the map, can you see that as a
functioning viable state that inthat takes in the West Bank and
Gaza with one government? Very, very simple.
I mean, Palestine has to be likeany other state, our land, as
(32:45):
per the most historic painful concession we made is the 1967
areas. And I repeat the most painful
because many people think the two state solution is a
Palestinian demand. May I correct this in your
program, in your podcast, the the two state solution was a
Palestinian concession. They since this whole thing
(33:05):
started, the Palestinian National Agency, the PLO, the
political program we offered as a people that have been
ethnically cleansed is A1 democratic state.
That's the PLO program up until 1988.
It's one state in the historic land of Palestine.
And we will accommodate everybody because look at our
history, we were saying we wouldaccommodate you regardless of
(33:26):
your religion, regardless of your color, you will be
Palestinian and we will build that state together.
And that idea was a non starter because Israel want to be, you
know, Jewish and democratic between 100 paranthesis.
And to exist to continue to. Exist, yeah, but they could
exist. But they want to exist on their
own. Exclusive.
Exclusive. And they say it.
(33:48):
I mean, this is their and the and the public record.
That's their ideology. And then they have even
legislated and the and the and the Knesset only recently that
there will only be one people for the right of self
dissemination from the river to the sea.
They said it's a law in the Knesset.
That's only the Jewish people and people talk about some
Palestinian political groups andthey never talk about some
(34:10):
Israeli political groups. I mean, what they have in their
manifestos is just, is just unbelievable.
Including include include including including liquid
itself. But come back to the
practicalities of how you administer a state, that is,
that is spread across two different parts of another
state, Israel. Fine, fine.
The West Bank is 1 territorial entity.
(34:32):
Israel is booting all the roadblocks.
Israel is inserting all the illegal colonial settlements.
All this is under is illegal. It's war crimes under
international law and all this must be dismantled.
So we're not talking about the state with the current status
quo and situation. We're talking about about the
state once the the occupation has ended.
And we want to see a political process that back rolls
(34:52):
occupation and colonization rather than, you know, advance
it as happened during Oslo. You mentioned Oslo.
Oslo was meant to be 5 years andthen after that there was ABS
state because the occupation will be withdrawing.
And that's why we have Area AB and C, because the first
withdrawal was A, followed by B and followed by C.
But we discovered how disingenuous Israel was because
(35:13):
they took A&B as a license to expand their settlements while
we were in the middle of making an A serious attempt at peace,
and they wanted to undermine it.Look, go back to Israel history
under serious international pressure and the serious
pressure in general, Israel would dismantle all these
illegal settlements. They did that in Sinai, in
Egypt, they did that in in southern Lebanon, they did that
(35:36):
in Gaza. So it's not an impossibility.
It could happen once we garner sufficient well and sufficient
pressure to actually make them go in that direction.
As for Gaza, Gaza is a beloved most integral part of the state
of Palestine. How do you connect Gaza to the
West Bank? There's many ideas of doing
that, if there is such a will and such a quest to go in a
(35:58):
different direction to establishpeace in the region.
And I believe the majority of the people of the world want
that, including the Palestiniansand many Israelis.
I've seen half a million of themin the streets.
One thing, a ceasefire protesting the Netanyahu
government. If we can build that momentum
and, and the conference that happened in in New York, the
Kingdom of Saudi Arabia with France and bringing all these
people around together, the, thespeech that was made by our
(36:21):
president to the UN only recently, all that momentum, the
wave of recognitions, including the UK, the country of the
Belfour Declaration and all thathistory, we can move forward.
We cannot, let's not allow, let's not allow genocide to be
the final word. Let's not allow genocide to be
the final world. I think the final word should be
(36:43):
peace. The final word should be
reconciliation. And the final world should be
that both Israel and Palestine is as part of an international
community, of a of a global system that treat all treat all
equally. Do you worry, though, that you
might be out of touch with the younger generation of
Palestinians who have now lived through two years of this
(37:07):
killing and who were very skeptical about a two state
solution and who were actually going back to the idea that you
said the the PLO wanted originally of one state?
And they're not interested in this idea of compromise.
Can you blame them? I cannot blame them.
Are people going through genocide and ethnic cleansing in
the West Bank? I mean, I was in the West Bank
(37:27):
very recently. I spent a month there and what I
saw there was just heart fetching.
I was not even, I, I was connected all the time going and
coming. I wasn't prepared for what I
saw. I mean while while rightly saw
the attention on Gaza, Israel isusing the time to finish it's
real job which is in the West Bank.
So having said that, I understand what our younger
(37:47):
generation are going through, I really do.
But I want them to also understand what the previous
generations, not just my generation, but the many
generations before us have gone through to arrive at the moment
where we compromise. We give that painful concession,
as I started by saying, for the sake of peace and for the sake
of our future and the children of our and our children and the
(38:08):
children of the region and the world.
This is not just about our children and the the best way
the leaders of the time. Yas Arafat, the founder of the
movement of the Palestine National Movement, the father of
the nation, found was to ally ourselves with international
legitimacy, international consensus.
We go back to the beginning of this conversation, the
significance of internationalism, universalism
(38:30):
and this whole equation. And whether we like it or not,
the international and many of the Palestinian side so that as
unjust or unjust. But the international community
has come to a consensus that thesolution is 2 states on the 67
border. So we as a Palestinian at the
time, as a Palestinian movement saw in that, OK, let's accept
(38:52):
this proposal. So at least we say what left of
our people and we embrace the future.
So I, I will tell them to study carefully the past to see what
the the previous generations have gone through and why they
arrived at this moment. And I will tell them that in the
end, what matters is not how bigor small the the compromise will
(39:13):
be. In the very end, what matters is
how do we make sure that our children are protected and they
have a future they deserve. Krishnan I want to see our
children and playgrounds in schools and I want to see them
in universities and leading yourbanks and leading your
international organizations thatthat's what we want them to see.
(39:33):
And. What do you do about your
extremists? There are extremists in every
culture, including in the Palestinian 1 and and they have
arguably undermined the peace process for generations.
What do you do? You believe that they are
persuadable or do they have to be defeated?
Depends what you mean by extremist, but I think the
(39:55):
biggest weapon against the most lethal weapon.
I mean the people who still want.
The most lethal We You mean the people who want Israel to go,
that's what. And who believe in violence.
So you believe also like 3/4 of the Israeli political class
believe that Palestine doesn't exist.
Now this is the issue. The issue is that always when it
comes to Palestinians, you started by asking me, extremism
(40:17):
is a Palestinian thing, Violenceis a Palestinian thing.
I said everyone has violence, all of these societies.
Violence. Terrorism is a Palestinian
thing. In fact, we're in fact all these
things. Terrorism, violence, violence,
incitement is Israeli thing Partpart excellence.
Are you hearing what this I. Literally said everybody has
extremists, including Israel, but so does Palestine.
(40:40):
So the question is, what do you do with your extremists?
Believe in that. I'll tell you.
I'll tell you and take my answerfor a face value.
The biggest, most lethal weapon against extremists everywhere is
one word. One word.
Hope. Hope, extremism thrives on
desperation, thrives on depression, thrives on the
(41:02):
feeling that nothing is possible.
So hope is the antidote of all what you're seeing now.
And that's why we must give our people hope now, now, before
it's too late. And not just our people, all
people. People are so depressed, my
friend, everywhere. People feel that this is dark,
this is impossible, that we are just going to be killed anyway.
(41:25):
And then when you get to and we are going to be killed alone.
And even when we are killed, nobody will bury us.
You know, the biggest fear for our people in Gaza, and I'm on
the phone almost every day, the biggest fear is not that their
children will be killed. The biggest fear of many fathers
I spoke to and mothers is that they will not be able to bury
their own children. They the only wish, should their
(41:46):
children be killed, they can still bury them.
And by the way, there are many children who are still unburied
so and in such, in such situation and then such
thinking, how do you give them, how do you, how do you light up
a candle in the middle of this darkest of darkness?
And the only answer to that is ahorizon to a different future
(42:11):
and a fight against the fanaticsin the Israeli government.
And who can light this scandal? Who can now light this scandal?
Who is the Big Brother? You think you can wait for a
candle like this to be let in Israel?
You think there will be an Israeli leader who come out
grand and say enough is enough? We have done enough atrocities
(42:33):
against the Palestinian people. They have like we do the right
to self determination. They have like we do the right
to equality. And they have the right like us
to a state of their own. I don't see this happening very
soon because of the indoctrination, because of the
racism, because of the idea thatthey are the eternal victim and
the only victim. So who would like the?
Eternal victim and the only victim, because the idea that
(42:55):
they are the chose the chosen people and because they are
superior to everybody, they can do as they wish and they will
never ever be held accountable. They are completely immune and
of course they think they can dowhatever.
Can you imagine? They just go and bomb Qatar,
this closest ally of the US I mean, that's, that's the,
that's, that's the culture that has been created that we have to
(43:16):
change. So where does the hope come
from? The hope has has got, has got to
come from the humanity now, the humanity, our humanity as a
human race and family. And I tell you, I'll just want
to tell you it is coming. It's coming and it's literally
irradiating everywhere and it's reaching Gaza.
It's reaching Janine and Turkare, Mandel, Khalid and and
(43:38):
Jerusalem and reaching our people in the refugee camps and
diaspora. That light, that hope is coming
from the people of the world. Do not underestimate when our
people see the millions in London and the and the UK in
general. They see them every week, every
month. Do not underestimate the power
of the people and the expansion of this longest, largest protest
(43:58):
movement in the history of this country, of the UK and
worldwide. Do not underestimate what what
our people are following, what is happening in Spain, what is
happening in France, what is happening in Italy as we speak
in the last few days, what is happening everywhere in the
world. Do not underestimate when our
people see that the people of the world are changing, not
only, not only their government.You asked me how did the
(44:18):
recognition came about? It's the British people, it's
the public opinion that pressured the Parliament, and
the Parliament pressured the cabinet, and the cabinet
delivered in the very end. And why did the people change?
Because of the Palestinian people.
The Palestinian people communicated that we are being
killed, we are being murdered, we are being destroyed.
It's a genocide. And the people realized that
(44:39):
this is something they have to, and then it became global
Palestine. I'll tell you today, this isn't
about a solidarity movement withPalestine.
This is a global Palestine meaning, meaning the people of
the world, particularly in the UK.
And I'll I'll end by why I say the UK is very relevant here.
Why Britain is very relevant, but particularly here.
Believe now this is not just ourfight.
(45:01):
They really, truly, truly and I meet thousands of them
literally, and I am in the streets as you may follow.
And I, I encounter this festive feeling that this is our joint
fight. This is our joint struggle.
We are struggling with the Palestinian people because today
it's their children, tomorrow it's our children.
We are back to the reversal value.
We are back to humanity and we are back to the idea that
(45:22):
injustice anywhere is injustice everywhere.
And that's Martin Luther King for you.
And what what Nelson Mandela himself said, he said they the
freedom of South Africa is incomplete without the freedom
of Palestine. That's universality for you.
That's that's exactly where the people of the world are.
That what happens in Rafa, whereI was born, connects directly to
(45:47):
Cardiff and that, you know, Cardiff cares and absolutely
into that, that that cause because it has to do with our
shared human age. So this is the hope and I'll
tell you that hope is growing and growing and growing.
Change is happening in the US. Change is happening is
everywhere. But let's go back to London.
What I see in London for the last couple of years reminds me
(46:09):
of the anti apartheid movement to 100%.
And it reminds me how that anti apartheid movement ended up
collapsing the apartheid regime in Africa, surrounding it and
separating it from the rest of the world and in the end
suffocating it. So that's why because I wanted.
To come to that, I mean, do you think that kind of pressure
(46:29):
which means economic sanctions is, is also the next step?
One, 100% and this is not just with regards to Palestine and
the illegalities in Palestine, it's with regards to anywhere in
the world. Of course, it was used against
in the, in the, in the situationwith Ukraine, against Russia, It
it is used everywhere the Balkans.
The issue is when it comes to Israel, when it comes to Israel,
(46:51):
the West always poses like this is the exception to every rule.
Why? It's the exception to everyone.
So we need to change that. We need to change.
We don't change the rules or theOR the policy asks.
No, no, we need sanctions, we definitely need the arms
embargo, but we need to change and challenge this Israeli
exceptionalism. No, no, no, Israel must be just
(47:13):
like any other state actor in the world and must be treated
equally. But I'll go back to the idea of
the anti apartheid movement because that's the candle I was
talking about. That's the hope I was talking
about. I'll tell you what I see here is
as as intense, if not more. And I'd like to remind you and
remind your, your viewers, the last comers of the anti
(47:35):
apartheid movement were two countries, Israel and the US.
And today the last in the globe is Israel and the US.
Don't you see the similarity here?
Don't you see the power of the people?
Don't you see that we are upon that moment?
Don't you think this is our South Africa moment and that
anti apartheid movement was ableto free Nelson Mandela and was
(47:59):
able to free South Africa and I think we are almost there.
Absolutely. But I want our people to know
because our people are being deprived of you, of you.
You are unable to go and convey that message as a media.
You are unable to go and report what is happening to them in
Gaza and many parts of the West Bank.
By the way, Israel now is absolutely wanting to do all
(48:19):
this in the darkness. So we are hoping through these
conversations and we are conveying to our people and the
ceremony we conveyed here, raising the flag, commemorating
the UK recognition, telling our people, yeah, because of your
blood, because of your sacrifice, because of the last
100 years of steadfastness. So more than Arabic now the UK
(48:40):
has ended 100 years of denying our existence and denying our
right to self determination. So that is the hope.
The hope is that while we are being killed in the worst moment
of our history, a genocide is being done against us.
Lights are coming from many directions.
And how do you see your own rolein this future?
(49:01):
Some people wonder if you are part of the future of a
Palestinian state, a possible leader.
Is that how you see your own future?
My future. I'm just a person, my friend.
This is much, much bigger than me as a person, as a boy, from
very. That's a political answer.
No, it's not. No, no it's not.
Listen, the honour of my life really is to represent the
(49:25):
Palestinian people as an ambassador, first in the US and
then now in the UK. The honor of my life is to stand
there 2 days ago and declare that today Britain's denial of
the Palestinian people, Britain's most grave, gravest
historic injustice of denying our right to self determination
(49:48):
has ended. Doesn't matter where you are in
that state. And that what matters is you are
a son of that nation and you serve that nation wherever you
are. And I'll tell you, I felt that
was the most important moment ina long history.
And for a boy from the refugee camp again to have witnessed
(50:10):
that, I feel I'm done. I mean, I'm done.
Maybe I'll become you and I willwill do a joint podcast.
You and I will do a joint podcast, but now there is no
liberated, there is no Free State of Palestine.
Maybe once the state of Palestine is for you and I will
think about how do we do that. In the meantime, the real battle
is deliberation. I mean, look, this podcast is
(50:32):
partly about allowing people to dream.
And you, you know, you've been kind of laying out a, a vision
of hope. But there is a there is a much
less hopeful possibility as wellas you know, which is that the
Trump administration is not going anywhere, whether it's him
or somebody else. You are essentially down, down
the line. This way, Israel has worked out
(50:53):
that it can pretty much do what it wants and carry on the the
the likely successors to Netanyahu from the opposition
essentially think the same thingas he does when it comes to a
Palestinian state. So there's no, there's no
visionary leader in Israel who'ssaying let's let's go for, you
know, peace and A2 state solution who's likely to be
elected. And that this just carries on.
(51:17):
And that that's in truth is is quite a realistic scenario,
isn't it? It is if we don't really deliver
to the Israeli public. In the end, it's the Israeli
people who elect their leaders. And they elected Netanyahu
almost for 20 years, by the way,because the first time they
elected Netanyahu it was 1996. So it's almost 20 years.
They elected him on the basis that he will derail the Oslo
(51:38):
process. He promised them publicly in his
election campaign, and he will never, ever allow for a
Palestinian state. And he will do that while he
will normalize Israel's relations with the region.
Remember the normalization campaign and that occupation he
promised them will be permanent.Colonization permanent.
Besieging girls are permanent. Everything will be permanent,
(51:58):
permanent illegality and things will be fine.
I am the man, he told them, who can deal with America.
I'm the man who can deal with the region.
We need to give them a differentmessage and we need to tell them
you cannot have the cake and 82 and things come with
consequences. If you continue electing this
person, there is a price to be paid and the price has got to be
economic and the price has got to be cultural and the price has
(52:21):
got to be completely painful situation whereby you cannot
definitely, you cannot believe that you can continue
subjugating an entire nation permanently.
And we can do that again to South Africa example.
The people of the world are are doing that already.
The governments of the world have just begun to do that.
As I was working here, Slovenia announced that Benjamin
(52:46):
Netanyahu is persona and grata and, and Slovenia and he cannot
travel, travel ban. I, I think I mentioned this
earlier, this is going to increase and Slovenia is a
European country. This is going to increase and it
it will be on the. So the people's movement is
reaching governments now and if we get to a point where we have
false sanctions, not half sanctions, you know, there is a
(53:07):
lot of these measures that were taken by some countries,
including the UK, like the arms embargo, like the sanctions on
the Israeli government, like thesanctions on the settlers and
the settlements, All of them arehalf measures.
We want 4 measures apply the full force of the law and I
assure you people, including theIsraeli people, will sit, pause,
think again and realize no, no, no, no, this cannot continue.
(53:30):
We have got to bring about leaders that take us into a
different direction. Netanyahu was a clown.
They were realized. Netanyahu did not serve the
future of Israel. Netanyahu has isolated Israel
completely and has achieved nothing except murdering 20,000
children and together with more than 45 thousand of their
parents and families. That is not an achievement for a
(53:53):
military or for a country. That's nothing.
Destroying building is not an achievement.
Achievement is to provide betterfuture to your people and the
people around you and. Can you say that if, if the
world and Israel accept the ideaof accountability, that that
will also apply to whoever is left who was responsible for
(54:14):
October 7th or any other atrocities, and that the and
that the Palestinians want accountability in international
courts for Palestinian criminalsand war criminals?
Yeah, you asked me this questionlong ago and I remember it.
And I told you, of course you cannot be half committed or half
demanding or half pregnant. You have to be.
If you believe in something, youdo it all the way.
We believe and will adhere to international judicial system.
(54:40):
Sums on that. Thank you very much indeed.
Thank you for sharing your ways to change the world.
You can watch all of these interviews on the Channel 4 News
YouTube channel. Until next time, bye bye.
The rest of the world is finallyrecognizing the state of
Palestine, including the UK. It took a genocide for that to
happen. Many people think the two state
solution is a Palestinian demand.
May I correct this? The two state solution was a
Palestinian concession. Wherever I go in the West, not
just in the UK, Israel needs security.
I OK and we don't need security.Why don't you say Palestine
(00:20):
needs security? And who provides us with
security and how can we protect our people?
We will not establish a state asa function of what Israel wants.
We will establish a state as a function of what the Palestinian
people want and deserve. I want to see our children and
playgrounds in schools. The honor of my life really is
to represent the Palestinian people.
(00:46):
Hello and welcome to Ways to Change the World.
I'm Christian Gurimurphy, and this is the podcast in which we
talk to extraordinary people about the big ideas in their
lives and the events that have helped shape them.
My guest today was born in a refugee camp in Gaza and has
since become one of the most prominent Palestinian voices on
the world stage, an academic strategist, advisor to
presidents and a diplomat. In 2017, Hussain Zolmos was
(01:10):
appointed envoy to the United States until the Trump
administration shut down the PLOmission in Washington.
The following year, he became head of the Palestinian mission
in London, a role that has now been elevated to ambassador
after the UK's formal recognition of the State of
Palestine. He has been a leading voice for
Gaza throughout the recent conflicts, whilst also enduring
(01:30):
devastating personal loss, with members of his own family killed
in the violence. Hussain Zamloz, welcome to the
podcast. You've spent your whole life
really trying to change the world, so give me the vision of
how you want to change it. By focusing on the true owners
of this world, the people. By focusing on the human aspect,
(01:53):
too much focus has been bought on non human things.
All the way now to the AI. By going back to the very idea
of universal values, by making sure that we complement one
another rather than substitute with one another.
You know, I, I, I did my studieshere in London in the 90s, in
(02:14):
the late 90s and things were heading in the right direction.
The UN and the rules we created after the horror of the Second
World War was, was rather takingshape, intervening in many
places, resolving conflicts. Trade was seen to be a way of
friendship between nations, not a tool of war and sanctions and
(02:38):
and punishment. And what have you the world has
become then, or was becoming, ifyou remember your generation and
mine, global village, people whoare able to travel, people who
are able to interact, people. And then something hit this
globe by the beginning of this century, 2001, and all that
(03:00):
happened since then, and we havebeen on a decline.
And today, 1/4 of a century later in 2025, I'm really
concerned. I'm concerned that we are losing
that very principle of universalvalues, that we are all equal
under the law, that what brings us together is much bigger than
(03:20):
what divides us. And I I see the disintegration
of the very idea of a global system, international law, the
holding of the idea that only the powerful what matters, the
undermining of the very principles and bases we want to
see this globe perform. And Palestine has been in the
core of all this. And regrettably, Israel has
(03:43):
literally made mockery of all that we have been building over
the last 70 years. And the result is devastating,
is devastating, and it will be far reaching than just
Palestine. And this is a moment when we
have to regain that world that we want to see and make sure
that we inherit something for our children different than what
we are living right now. But you were you were born into
(04:03):
fundamentally unequal circumstances.
You know your family had been moved by the creation of Israel.
So what was your sense of what equal rights were?
The, the, the very sense is thissanctity of human life that's
the bare, bare base of everything, that human life
(04:28):
should never be disposable, thatthere is no such a thing as, you
know, different colours of blood.
We are all the children of one God.
There's no, no one is chosen. We are all chosen, all of us,
and we have the same rights and that supremacy, racism, bigotry
(04:49):
is the biggest enemy of the human race and not just in
Palestine and and Israel. It's throughout history.
Look when it takes shape this superior ideas that we are a
superior race. Look at the consequences of the
Second World War. Look at the horrors of the Nazi
regime. Look at the most heinous crime
in modern history, the Holocaustand 6,000,000 Jews were murdered
(05:13):
because of that. And as a child, I was really
growing up just feeling that whyI was born in a very exceptional
why the tent and why the UN flagand what's with all this food
being distributed to us and why my school was different than
what I see elsewhere. And many questions.
(05:36):
And all these questions always brought me back to the very idea
that we have to fight for ourselves and others.
It's the same fight. It's the same cause with an Rafa
where I was born, or in Latin America or Africa or in Asia or
anywhere. It's the same fight.
So the the short answer to your question, it is the sanctity of
(05:57):
human lives and rights. Did you feel now life in Gaza is
being treated as disposable? I don't feel I, I, I know, I
see, I follow. I call my family.
I still have family. Whoever left of my family, I've
lost 10s of them. We even lost count.
Now you've lost. Count no.
The last time we counted from myextended family was 106, and my
(06:21):
family is small by size, by numbers, in proportionate term,
that's a huge number, but I think the number is much bigger.
We still don't know how many of my own extended family are still
buried under their their homes. What What happens when you get
that news via the family of another loss?
(06:44):
Two things. First I I cry.
I feel very sad. And second, I feel a sense of
responsibility. We have failed them.
I have failed them. The world has failed them.
I feel a sense of like, how could we let this happen?
Really? That's what I feel.
(07:04):
Especially most of those who were killed were young and
children, and they should be protected by us.
And if I call myself an ambassador representing their
occupied state, I should have been able to do something about
it. But I also think about the
world. I mean, while the world now has
finally, the rest of the world is finally recognizing the state
of Palestine, including the UK. It took a genocide for that to
(07:28):
happen. And still the world failed to
stop the genocide and let alone prevent the genocide to start
with. So as a Palestinian, a boy from
a refugee camp, my family in Gaza being killed and murdered,
all the way to being my people'sambassador to the US and now to
the UK, being part of this international diplomacy and
(07:51):
system, believing that in the very end we have to resolve our
issues collectively, multilaterally.
I have many questions now. I have really many questions and
it really attacks the very fundamental belief in me that
brought me to the LSC here at the London School of Economics.
And it brought me from where thefirst job I had, I was educated
(08:13):
as an undergraduate in Palestinein Berzette University.
And when I graduated economics, I have studied economics, taught
economics, research economics all of my life.
So I'm an intruder into politics, for your information.
But the moment I graduated from Beerset University, the one
place I wanted to join was not governments or even, you know,
private sector. It was the UN.
(08:35):
So I was a UN officer official for four years, five years,
because I always believed since I was child, maybe because of
that story I just told you. I was fed by the UN, educated by
the UN, and I always saw the UN.You know what?
I'll tell you a small little child story.
I almost told the UN when I was 567 years old.
(08:56):
I also saw the UN flag. The Blue Flag was my flag, my
national flag, because it was the only flag flying over the
houses, flying over the school, the clinics, because it was
Onoroa schools, UN schools, The even the cars that used to come
to the the 4 by 4, you know, youown cars would have the flag.
And as a child I even thought the drivers and the passengers
(09:17):
of these cars are my army, you see.
So the moment I graduated and I was to offer myself to the
workplace, to the market, the only thing I could think of is
to join that army, is to join that army of the globe, that
army of the world that come to enforce rules equally on all of
us that will save all of us. So for me, the consequences of
(09:38):
of what is happening in Gaza, the genocide, the mass murder,
the mass destruction and the mass starvation, the
consequences on my set of beliefs is absolutely
devastatingly massive. And I am trying my best to hold
the belief, to keep that light in my heart that no, in the very
end, we have to continue fighting for that system to get
(10:00):
hold, for the very idea of a global just first system to
continue the problem. I tell myself from time to time,
I look at the mirror, the problem for some is not in the
law. The law is good.
It's not even in the institutions of the law as in
the ICC and the ICJ. Look at them.
They are being sanctioned. Now.
The problem is in the few powerful countries who want to
(10:21):
be selective when it comes to the application of of the law.
Who wants to put Israel above, above every rule, above every
piece of law? Who wants to keep the immunity
for Israel? And then you think, no, you keep
fighting those few powerful individuals who are literally
destroying everything we want tobuild as a community of nations.
(10:42):
Do do you believe the UN is still a functioning institution?
I mean, when you look at the General Assembly and you look at
this parade of speeches and you see how Trump delivers his his
message to the world, is it still a viable way to solve
problems? We don't have a better
alternative and it was effectiveand it's it's still effective.
(11:04):
I mean, I just described to you my experience with honor war and
honor War is a you an organization that was
established to take care of Palestinian refugees while until
the our right to be, you know, our issue to be resolved, our
right of return to be fulfilled.Now, Anurwa is the most
extensive, most effective way ofdistributing assistance, food,
(11:25):
education, medical services, what have you treatment most
effective, by the way. And that's exactly why Israel
has attacked Anurwa. So the issue is not how much the
UN is effective. And if there was some
shortcomings, and I'm sure thereare, there are in this
organization or that we can fix it.
The issue is in the view who seein the UN as their enemy.
(11:48):
You see, I can imagine Israelis listening to your your answer
and your story about your childhood and saying, well, how
appropriate they thought the UN was his flag because the UN is
on their side. You know, they believe the UN is
biased. They believe the UN is pro
Palestinian. No, because they say more than
that. They say pro terror.
Come on, Come on. A child is a child.
Yeah, a child is a child. He sees a flag.
(12:10):
But that's a good story about everyone one of us.
Israel was established by the UN.
The birth certificate of Israel came from the UN.
The UN has helped Israel so muchthroughout its its journey.
But the moment the UN stood against Israeli unlawful
exercise, unlawful policies, thegenocide and until honorable was
(12:32):
able to distribute food, which is which is exactly what Israel
doesn't want. Israel wants to use starvation
as a method of war, period. Israel wants to use starvation
as a way of pushing people out of Gaza.
So the moment the UN became in the way of the Israeli design of
the Israeli campaign for erasure, annihilation and
extermination, the UN had to go.The UN is bad guy, OK, I was 5-6
(12:57):
years old. I told you a couple of years
later I I knew that this is my flag, the Palestine flag, the
four colours, and I was very proud of it.
But my flag and the Blue Flag should be always next to each
other because the whole idea of Palestine is to be part of the
community of nations. The whole idea is that you are a
bridge between East and West. The whole idea is that you are
(13:18):
so proud of being part of this international community and you
would adhere to the provisions and the rules of the
international community. Now a moment, a member of that
international system is not adhering.
We need to make them comply and adhere to this.
So the argument is all he thought that the UN, this is
ridiculous. The UN is for everybody because
(13:38):
as much as I was a refugee in Rafah, the UN was providing for
refugees in Syria, for Syrian refugees, they were providing in
Latin America and Africa, everywhere.
So all these children would havefelt they have a Big Brother in
the UN and they have given thesechildren our future.
And this is exactly what every other children anywhere in the
world should be receiving. And should Israelis at one point
(14:00):
in time would need internationalhelp, they should be granted.
You, you, you said it has taken a genocide as defined by the UN
Commission recently to get Britain, France and all these
other nations to recognize the state of Palestine.
What? What does that tell you, if
that's true about the way the Western world sees Palestinian
(14:27):
lives? Yeah, we've spoken about this.
I I have been talking about it. There was a great deal of
dehumanization of the Palestinian people, a great deal
that our lives are literally, literally disposable, that we
are some somehow children of Alice, our God.
And that's that's why always, always the issue of condemnation
(14:49):
gets me a bit. You know, I challenge all this
not because. Condemnation of Hamas.
Of, of, of, of, of, of, of, of, of targeting Israeli civilians.
And you know, let me say this, we condemn the targeting of, of
civilians from all side. But the problem with the West is
always with the old sides. They don't accept us to say from
all sides, they want us to specify the killing of Israeli
(15:13):
civilians when in fact Palestinian civilians have been
killed all along before the 7th of October, after the 7th of
October and the conversation doesn't pick up.
And that tells you all you need to know.
And that's why since the 7th of October and before the 7th of
October, I've been saying the 6th of October, the UN came up
with a report on international organizations.
That was the deadliest year for the Palestinian children and and
(15:35):
the West Bank. Nothing.
Gaza even. Why didn't you bring me here?
Why didn't you bring an Israeli official?
Listen, I, I, I go all over the UK now and other countries and
I'm I'm I sit on, you know, in conversations like this.
Lastly was Chatham House and many other, you know, think
thanks media, what have you. We always get to ask, do you
(15:57):
condemn? Always the Palestinians and
Israelis would come just after us.
Actually, few days after I was interviewed by the chair of the
director of the CEO of Chatham House, the Israeli president was
sitting on the same seat. The question Do you condemn the
murder of more than 65,000 innocent Palestinians, including
20,000 children? Was never asked, was never
(16:21):
asked, still is never asked. That tells you the story of how
much there is a devalue or devaluing of Palestinian life.
Why? I don't understand.
Why is it why? Why do you think what changes
the why is it? Is it religious reasons?
No, Palestine is the birth placeof Christianity.
(16:43):
I mean, Jesus was born in Palestine, Bethlehem, the the
Church of Nativity, the the Church of the Holy Sepulchre.
So the heritage for Palestine and Palestine is made of
Palestinian Christians and Muslims.
We are we are the original Christians and Palestine is
sacred to all religions, including, of course, to Islam,
(17:04):
as Prophet Muhammad is believed to have ascended by Muslims, of
course, to to to heavens. So it's very sacred Al Aqsa
Mosque and and we should take pride in that.
I mean, it's a source of pride and Palestine before the the
establishment of Israel was really, really, really, this is
go back to history was the example of tolerance of
(17:28):
coexistence of one nation. That's why you will never know.
You're speaking to me. You will never know as a
Palestinian who's a Muslim and who's a Christian.
The ambassador, the two ambassadors before we were
Christians, the one before me immediately was Armenian.
They only came to Palestine 100 years ago.
They took refuge in Palestine. We open our arms completely to
(17:49):
the Armenian community to protect them.
And the same thing happened after the Holocaust and the
atrocities that were committed. We open our homes and our hearts
because the Palestinian people are so proud of them receiving
everybody. Why I'm saying this?
One of them of the Armenians became our ambassador to the UK
and our foreign minister now, now is one of them.
(18:10):
So this is the Palestine I'm talking about and this is the
kind of world. So we are not just preaching,
this is who we are and this is this is how we do it and this is
how we are proud. She's Palestinian, our foreign
minister, our ambassador here, the Armenian was, was was a
proud representative of the people of Palestine.
And the one before him, Afif Safia was Catholic, here in
(18:32):
London was Catholic. So we come from a background in
the society that what we care about is our humanity, not our
faith, not our colour, not our height.
This is the heart of the matter.That should apply everywhere.
I don't. You know, my ears get painful
when I hear all this dirty talk about, you know, the, the, the,
that human beings are a threat. Palestinian refugees are a
(18:54):
threat. No, they're not threat.
Wherever they go, they are a source of pride.
I did that ceremony a couple of days ago to raise the
Palestinian flag in commemoration and marking the UK
historic regulation of the stateof Palestine.
And I said that, you know, amongthem in the in that ceremony,
there were many Palestinians coming to share that moment with
us. And I told them, look around
(19:16):
you, you will see top doctors, top top the highest consultants
in the NHS. The last I counted just one
count 550 Palestinian highest consultants in the NHS.
Look at you, you'll see an innovators and, and and
entrepreneurs and what have you.I'm saying this, Krishnan, just
to say no, the UK, Europe, the West must see us for our
(19:41):
humanity and what we can contribute rather than what
Israel has been feeding for 77 years now, maybe more.
That we are only a threat. No, we were the biggest
opportunity in the region and wewill be the biggest opportunity
and the reason. So yes, I have encountered so
much racism and let me stress this again, there is a lot of
(20:01):
anti Palestinian racism, anti Palestinian racism.
Anti Palestinian bias, anti Palestinian bigotry.
Everywhere I went, everywhere there is always assumptions,
there is always perception, there is always an idea in the
heads of anybody that I would contact.
I would have to be on the defence all the time.
I would have to prove myself andourselves and I I would have
(20:22):
always to explain myself. And the assumption is.
As a human, to explain myself asa human when I come from a place
that exports. Humanity what?
What do you feel people assume about you?
But always, always look at this,look, look at this.
Israel is established via a a British declaration, the Balfour
Declaration, which was completely and utterly illegal,
(20:45):
immoral in every sense, and a historic injustice that was
committed against our people because they gave away our land,
our land without any consultation, without any
legitimacy. Britain did not have any
legitimacy to give away a land over people without any
consultation. And then they took over
Palestine, ruled by Britain ruled Palestine from 1919 to
(21:05):
1948. And they were supposed to, as
per their contract, their agreement with the League of
Nation at the time, supposed to oversee our independence.
What they oversaw was our Nakba,the ethnic cleansing of 2/3 of
the Palestinian people. So for for me to see the British
Prime Minister after all these years to stand and say we
(21:27):
recognize the state of Palestine, we recognize the
inalienable, the right of the Palestinian people to self
determination, That's a historicmoment, not only for us, not
only for the Palestinian people.I said, and I say it again,
Palestine existed long before the Balfour Declaration.
Palestine will always exist and Palestine will always be there.
It's about Britain, it's about righting the wrongs and
(21:49):
beginning, beginning a new chapter and moving in the very
right direction. And I said, and I say it again,
recognition is only a step, one step.
It's it's not a destination on which we need to build so many
other steps. So actually we abroot the root
cause of all this, which is the colonial occupation, the
besiegement, the oppression, theapartheid regime that is
(22:11):
established and now genocide. Right, so, so if it is only a
step you you believe this shouldbe the step towards still the
two state solution? The first and foremost thing
that we need to do right now is to end the genocide.
Our people are being literally murdered in on mass as we speak.
And you know what hurts me the most?
(22:32):
At the beginning of the genocide, everybody was denying
it. Now the UN Commission comes out.
Before it was the ICJ and every time I say to ABBC anchor or
anybody, any, any media genocide, if I utter the word
genocide, they will have to say.But Israel refuses your role as
a media, you know, as an anchor,as a, as a journalist, not to
(22:55):
say what Israel says. Your role is to tell me what you
see. And Israel has preventing you,
the entire international media from accessing Gaza until now.
Two years and you haven't reallypushed back enough.
Not you. I'm not talking about you.
I'm talking and you, but I'm I'mtalking about the Western
mainstream media. Although my role, I'd say you,
you said the ICJ, the ICJ didn'tsay it's a genocide.
(23:18):
It says there's a case for genocide.
But that's that's what the courtdoes, yeah, to admit Israel, to
admit Israel for a case of genocide, they would say
plausible, of course, But then you will hear the ruling later
and it will be the. Ruling will come.
Of course it will come. So in terms of ending the
genocide in your terms, what what is your, what is your
(23:38):
route? What is the next step?
First thing and foremost, of course, there are diplomatic
efforts. As we speak, there is Egypt,
Qatar and with the US for a ceasefire.
There are many proposals and every time we are very close,
Netanyahu does something. Last time he attacked Iran,
(23:58):
couple of weeks ago, he attackedQatar as usual.
By the way, the attack against Qatar, against the sovereignty
of Qatar, which was asked by theInternational Committee to play
the role of a mediator, of course, illegal, criminal and
all that, but the main idea of it for Netanyahu was to bomb the
ceasefire proposal. That's the whole idea.
He doesn't want the ceasefire. So I'm saying this to tell you,
(24:21):
and we need to push back in the diplomatic arena, but there are
other arenas. We need to make sure it happens.
So actually, Netanyahu finally complies.
I mean, the diplomatic arena clearly isn't going to work
without America, is it? Yes, yes, yes.
Well, there was a meeting between President Trump and many
regional leaders only a couple of days ago at the French of the
UN, the General Assembly anger. And it seems everybody's talking
(24:42):
positively that the President Trump wants to offer a grand
deal to end the war on Gaza, to end the genocide and to move
forward into a direction of peace.
I'm hoping that, but there are other answering your question.
We must make sure that while thediplomatic political track is
going, there is the legal track and the legal track requires the
following. Number one is accountability.
(25:03):
We must see war criminals behindbar.
As I was walking into the studio, I saw that the Slovenia
announced that Netanyahu is now persona non grata and he will
have a travel ban to Slovenia. Well, that's following the ICC
arrest warrant against Netanyahu.
Accountability is very important, my friend, because
(25:25):
without accountability, not onlyyou'll never give justice to the
victims, but you will never deter the next war criminals.
You will be setting duck for thenext genocide, and not just
against Palestinians, but against anybody.
And that's not, not just againstour children, but maybe against
your children. So we need to make sure that
accountability is upheld. This is the most significant
part of anybody who committed war crimes.
(25:46):
Anybody, any entity, all must beheld accountable.
It's about sequencing though, isn't it?
Because, because what you may find if you get to a ceasefire,
your, your demand for accountability is going to butt
up against the the reality of a political settlement and the
creation of some sort of Palestinian entity and, and, and
(26:11):
there may be a demand for reconciliation.
Well. Which denies you accountability.
Well, well, we are not the FirstNation to have gone through this
most horrible painful oppressionand murder and targeting S
Africans and the apartheid regime, many others without
(26:31):
going through the list. The list is unfortunately long,
but you always have to it's, it's not either or.
You will have to have a political resolution, but you
will have to have justice. Justice has to be in the middle
of any peacemaking. If not, if justice is not the
premise of it, it will not sustain.
And look at us. We've tried that piece, many
shots. It's failed because justice was
(26:52):
not in the centre. Can you see Israel giving
Netanyahu up to an internationalcourt?
It must, because if we want to save not only Palestinian
children, but save our international system, it was the
ICC that issued the arrest warrant, not me and not us.
And the ICC has the world judges.
This is the World Court. Once the does and let him defend
(27:13):
himself, what are you talking about?
Let him go and say I'm innocent.I didn't do anything and prove
it. The whole idea is that if you
really want to deter to deter next criminals, next war
criminals, deter next people whothink that mass murdering
people, mass destroying their homes.
I mean Gaza's gun. Do you think the world?
Gaza is true. How do you?
(27:34):
How do you how? There's a big assumption there,
isn't it? OK, How do you do this?
How do you do this? There are two ways to do this.
Either we build our own militarycapability to defend ourselves
and then ever again for us that moment is by building the
strongest army in the region anddare anybody touch our children.
Or we revert to multilateralism and international judicial
system and make sure it's the power of the globe that brings
(27:58):
about accountability and deterrence.
Which one you prefer? Which one I prefer the second.
I don't think we should build big arms.
I think the Middle East has to be an A nuclear free zone
completely starting with Israel.I think the Middle East should
focus on economic integration and on giving our people a
better opportunities. So we shouldn't go into a a
military race. So the only alternative to the
(28:20):
issue of accountability and justice is international system.
I mean as, as you know, Israel says.
But that's number one of the items.
Still, there are others. Yeah, OK.
We'll come back to it. But you know, the Israelis who
support Netanyahu and even even many in the opposition who who
oppose A Palestinian state, as many of them do, say the reason
(28:40):
you cannot have a Palestinian state, as you say, is because
you cannot have a country that could attack us.
You cannot have a country that could have an army, that could
have weapons, that could have the ability to go to war with
Israel. How are you going to overcome
that basic problem? Not you, but how will you and?
Israel, the argument is, if the argument was genuine, I'm happy
(29:02):
to discuss it. But the argument by Israel is,
is a pretext, like many other pretexts.
They just don't want to see a Palestinian state.
And Netanyahu is on the record publicly saying it every other
day. I will never allow for a
Palestinian state. Now for security.
Think with me, number one, who needs security most, we or the
occupier? The occupied or the occupier?
(29:22):
I tell you, I look at you right in your in your eyes, and I tell
you it's the occupied, it's the colonized, it's the besieged,
it's the genocide that that needs security most.
And throughout our history, and particularly in the last century
and since the the Israel was established, our security has
been impeached. We have been treated as as, as I
(29:48):
said many times as just disposable and not just in terms
of murder. You know how many thousands of
Palestinians surrounded in Israeli jail without charge,
without trial? We're just nothing.
We just come to our homes in themiddle of the night around us
and they throw us in their jailsand we can rotten for years and
years without any legal due process now.
(30:10):
So number one, we need security.And wherever I go in the West
and not just in the UK, Israel needs security, OK, And we don't
need security. Why don't you say Palestine
needs security and who provides us with security and how can we
protect our people? What is the role of the state?
What is the role of the UK as a state?
What's the number one role for any state?
The protection of its people, That's number one.
(30:32):
How do I protect our people? So we have to think of our
security. Not we will not establish a
state as a function of what Israel wants.
We will establish a state as a function of what the Palestinian
people want and deserve. It's their right.
That's the that's the social contract between the people and
the state. That's number one.
Number two, do you really think,Krishnan, that security can
(30:54):
ever, ever be an outcome of bombing like you bomb your way
to security? Well, the security or security
is an outcome of peace, an outcome of a political
resolution, an outcome of fulfillment of people's right,
an an outcome of acknowledgementof the wrongs of the past, an
outcome of having a short future.
(31:15):
If we really believe that we could have neighborly future and
we can look at the best out of us and and look think with me.
You know, Israel is a very high tech society, very well linked
to the US and the West with all the free trade arrangements and
what have you and the Silicon Valley, you know the whole and
the economy is very strong. But also we have the most
(31:37):
educated and young population, very inspiring.
And wherever they go, they buildsocieties up in the Gulf and
everywhere. Can you imagine if we let that
be, the main sort of source of insecurity will disappear.
Security will disappear. It's a pretext.
It's a pretext. Security is an outcome of
fulfilling people's right. Security for Israel is a pretext
(32:00):
to undermine and deny people's right.
When when you look at the map though, is it possible?
Is it viable as a single entity?Israel is clearly openly now
doing everything it can to make it impossible.
It is building this new E1 settlement.
It has got security control overdifferent parts of the West
(32:21):
Bank. A lot of people think the West
Bank is actually a a single entity over which Palestinians
have control. Of course it isn't.
How, when you look at the map, can you see that as a
functioning viable state that inthat takes in the West Bank and
Gaza with one government? Very, very simple.
I mean, Palestine has to be likeany other state, our land, as
(32:45):
per the most historic painful concession we made is the 1967
areas. And I repeat the most painful
because many people think the two state solution is a
Palestinian demand. May I correct this in your
program, in your podcast, the the two state solution was a
Palestinian concession. They since this whole thing
(33:05):
started, the Palestinian National Agency, the PLO, the
political program we offered as a people that have been
ethnically cleansed is A1 democratic state.
That's the PLO program up until 1988.
It's one state in the historic land of Palestine.
And we will accommodate everybody because look at our
history, we were saying we wouldaccommodate you regardless of
(33:26):
your religion, regardless of your color, you will be
Palestinian and we will build that state together.
And that idea was a non starter because Israel want to be, you
know, Jewish and democratic between 100 paranthesis.
And to exist to continue to. Exist, yeah, but they could
exist. But they want to exist on their
own. Exclusive.
Exclusive. And they say it.
(33:48):
I mean, this is their and the and the public record.
That's their ideology. And then they have even
legislated and the and the and the Knesset only recently that
there will only be one people for the right of self
dissemination from the river to the sea.
They said it's a law in the Knesset.
That's only the Jewish people and people talk about some
Palestinian political groups andthey never talk about some
(34:10):
Israeli political groups. I mean, what they have in their
manifestos is just, is just unbelievable.
Including include include including including liquid
itself. But come back to the
practicalities of how you administer a state, that is,
that is spread across two different parts of another
state, Israel. Fine, fine.
The West Bank is 1 territorial entity.
(34:32):
Israel is booting all the roadblocks.
Israel is inserting all the illegal colonial settlements.
All this is under is illegal. It's war crimes under
international law and all this must be dismantled.
So we're not talking about the state with the current status
quo and situation. We're talking about about the
state once the the occupation has ended.
And we want to see a political process that back rolls
(34:52):
occupation and colonization rather than, you know, advance
it as happened during Oslo. You mentioned Oslo.
Oslo was meant to be 5 years andthen after that there was ABS
state because the occupation will be withdrawing.
And that's why we have Area AB and C, because the first
withdrawal was A, followed by B and followed by C.
But we discovered how disingenuous Israel was because
(35:13):
they took A&B as a license to expand their settlements while
we were in the middle of making an A serious attempt at peace,
and they wanted to undermine it.Look, go back to Israel history
under serious international pressure and the serious
pressure in general, Israel would dismantle all these
illegal settlements. They did that in Sinai, in
Egypt, they did that in in southern Lebanon, they did that
(35:36):
in Gaza. So it's not an impossibility.
It could happen once we garner sufficient well and sufficient
pressure to actually make them go in that direction.
As for Gaza, Gaza is a beloved most integral part of the state
of Palestine. How do you connect Gaza to the
West Bank? There's many ideas of doing
that, if there is such a will and such a quest to go in a
(35:58):
different direction to establishpeace in the region.
And I believe the majority of the people of the world want
that, including the Palestiniansand many Israelis.
I've seen half a million of themin the streets.
One thing, a ceasefire protesting the Netanyahu
government. If we can build that momentum
and, and the conference that happened in in New York, the
Kingdom of Saudi Arabia with France and bringing all these
people around together, the, thespeech that was made by our
(36:21):
president to the UN only recently, all that momentum, the
wave of recognitions, including the UK, the country of the
Belfour Declaration and all thathistory, we can move forward.
We cannot, let's not allow, let's not allow genocide to be
the final word. Let's not allow genocide to be
the final world. I think the final word should be
(36:43):
peace. The final word should be
reconciliation. And the final world should be
that both Israel and Palestine is as part of an international
community, of a of a global system that treat all treat all
equally. Do you worry, though, that you
might be out of touch with the younger generation of
Palestinians who have now lived through two years of this
(37:07):
killing and who were very skeptical about a two state
solution and who were actually going back to the idea that you
said the the PLO wanted originally of one state?
And they're not interested in this idea of compromise.
Can you blame them? I cannot blame them.
Are people going through genocide and ethnic cleansing in
the West Bank? I mean, I was in the West Bank
(37:27):
very recently. I spent a month there and what I
saw there was just heart fetching.
I was not even, I, I was connected all the time going and
coming. I wasn't prepared for what I
saw. I mean while while rightly saw
the attention on Gaza, Israel isusing the time to finish it's
real job which is in the West Bank.
So having said that, I understand what our younger
(37:47):
generation are going through, I really do.
But I want them to also understand what the previous
generations, not just my generation, but the many
generations before us have gone through to arrive at the moment
where we compromise. We give that painful concession,
as I started by saying, for the sake of peace and for the sake
of our future and the children of our and our children and the
(38:08):
children of the region and the world.
This is not just about our children and the the best way
the leaders of the time. Yas Arafat, the founder of the
movement of the Palestine National Movement, the father of
the nation, found was to ally ourselves with international
legitimacy, international consensus.
We go back to the beginning of this conversation, the
significance of internationalism, universalism
(38:30):
and this whole equation. And whether we like it or not,
the international and many of the Palestinian side so that as
unjust or unjust. But the international community
has come to a consensus that thesolution is 2 states on the 67
border. So we as a Palestinian at the
time, as a Palestinian movement saw in that, OK, let's accept
(38:52):
this proposal. So at least we say what left of
our people and we embrace the future.
So I, I will tell them to study carefully the past to see what
the the previous generations have gone through and why they
arrived at this moment. And I will tell them that in the
end, what matters is not how bigor small the the compromise will
(39:13):
be. In the very end, what matters is
how do we make sure that our children are protected and they
have a future they deserve. Krishnan I want to see our
children and playgrounds in schools and I want to see them
in universities and leading yourbanks and leading your
international organizations thatthat's what we want them to see.
(39:33):
And. What do you do about your
extremists? There are extremists in every
culture, including in the Palestinian 1 and and they have
arguably undermined the peace process for generations.
What do you do? You believe that they are
persuadable or do they have to be defeated?
Depends what you mean by extremist, but I think the
(39:55):
biggest weapon against the most lethal weapon.
I mean the people who still want.
The most lethal We You mean the people who want Israel to go,
that's what. And who believe in violence.
So you believe also like 3/4 of the Israeli political class
believe that Palestine doesn't exist.
Now this is the issue. The issue is that always when it
comes to Palestinians, you started by asking me, extremism
(40:17):
is a Palestinian thing, Violenceis a Palestinian thing.
I said everyone has violence, all of these societies.
Violence. Terrorism is a Palestinian
thing. In fact, we're in fact all these
things. Terrorism, violence, violence,
incitement is Israeli thing Partpart excellence.
Are you hearing what this I. Literally said everybody has
extremists, including Israel, but so does Palestine.
(40:40):
So the question is, what do you do with your extremists?
Believe in that. I'll tell you.
I'll tell you and take my answerfor a face value.
The biggest, most lethal weapon against extremists everywhere is
one word. One word.
Hope. Hope, extremism thrives on
desperation, thrives on depression, thrives on the
(41:02):
feeling that nothing is possible.
So hope is the antidote of all what you're seeing now.
And that's why we must give our people hope now, now, before
it's too late. And not just our people, all
people. People are so depressed, my
friend, everywhere. People feel that this is dark,
this is impossible, that we are just going to be killed anyway.
(41:25):
And then when you get to and we are going to be killed alone.
And even when we are killed, nobody will bury us.
You know, the biggest fear for our people in Gaza, and I'm on
the phone almost every day, the biggest fear is not that their
children will be killed. The biggest fear of many fathers
I spoke to and mothers is that they will not be able to bury
their own children. They the only wish, should their
(41:46):
children be killed, they can still bury them.
And by the way, there are many children who are still unburied
so and in such, in such situation and then such
thinking, how do you give them, how do you, how do you light up
a candle in the middle of this darkest of darkness?
And the only answer to that is ahorizon to a different future
(42:11):
and a fight against the fanaticsin the Israeli government.
And who can light this scandal? Who can now light this scandal?
Who is the Big Brother? You think you can wait for a
candle like this to be let in Israel?
You think there will be an Israeli leader who come out
grand and say enough is enough? We have done enough atrocities
(42:33):
against the Palestinian people. They have like we do the right
to self determination. They have like we do the right
to equality. And they have the right like us
to a state of their own. I don't see this happening very
soon because of the indoctrination, because of the
racism, because of the idea thatthey are the eternal victim and
the only victim. So who would like the?
Eternal victim and the only victim, because the idea that
(42:55):
they are the chose the chosen people and because they are
superior to everybody, they can do as they wish and they will
never ever be held accountable. They are completely immune and
of course they think they can dowhatever.
Can you imagine? They just go and bomb Qatar,
this closest ally of the US I mean, that's, that's the,
that's, that's the culture that has been created that we have to
(43:16):
change. So where does the hope come
from? The hope has has got, has got to
come from the humanity now, the humanity, our humanity as a
human race and family. And I tell you, I'll just want
to tell you it is coming. It's coming and it's literally
irradiating everywhere and it's reaching Gaza.
It's reaching Janine and Turkare, Mandel, Khalid and and
(43:38):
Jerusalem and reaching our people in the refugee camps and
diaspora. That light, that hope is coming
from the people of the world. Do not underestimate when our
people see the millions in London and the and the UK in
general. They see them every week, every
month. Do not underestimate the power
of the people and the expansion of this longest, largest protest
(43:58):
movement in the history of this country, of the UK and
worldwide. Do not underestimate what what
our people are following, what is happening in Spain, what is
happening in France, what is happening in Italy as we speak
in the last few days, what is happening everywhere in the
world. Do not underestimate when our
people see that the people of the world are changing, not
only, not only their government.You asked me how did the
(44:18):
recognition came about? It's the British people, it's
the public opinion that pressured the Parliament, and
the Parliament pressured the cabinet, and the cabinet
delivered in the very end. And why did the people change?
Because of the Palestinian people.
The Palestinian people communicated that we are being
killed, we are being murdered, we are being destroyed.
It's a genocide. And the people realized that
(44:39):
this is something they have to, and then it became global
Palestine. I'll tell you today, this isn't
about a solidarity movement withPalestine.
This is a global Palestine meaning, meaning the people of
the world, particularly in the UK.
And I'll I'll end by why I say the UK is very relevant here.
Why Britain is very relevant, but particularly here.
Believe now this is not just ourfight.
(45:01):
They really, truly, truly and I meet thousands of them
literally, and I am in the streets as you may follow.
And I, I encounter this festive feeling that this is our joint
fight. This is our joint struggle.
We are struggling with the Palestinian people because today
it's their children, tomorrow it's our children.
We are back to the reversal value.
We are back to humanity and we are back to the idea that
(45:22):
injustice anywhere is injustice everywhere.
And that's Martin Luther King for you.
And what what Nelson Mandela himself said, he said they the
freedom of South Africa is incomplete without the freedom
of Palestine. That's universality for you.
That's that's exactly where the people of the world are.
That what happens in Rafa, whereI was born, connects directly to
(45:47):
Cardiff and that, you know, Cardiff cares and absolutely
into that, that that cause because it has to do with our
shared human age. So this is the hope and I'll
tell you that hope is growing and growing and growing.
Change is happening in the US. Change is happening is
everywhere. But let's go back to London.
What I see in London for the last couple of years reminds me
(46:09):
of the anti apartheid movement to 100%.
And it reminds me how that anti apartheid movement ended up
collapsing the apartheid regime in Africa, surrounding it and
separating it from the rest of the world and in the end
suffocating it. So that's why because I wanted.
To come to that, I mean, do you think that kind of pressure
(46:29):
which means economic sanctions is, is also the next step?
One, 100% and this is not just with regards to Palestine and
the illegalities in Palestine, it's with regards to anywhere in
the world. Of course, it was used against
in the, in the, in the situationwith Ukraine, against Russia, It
it is used everywhere the Balkans.
The issue is when it comes to Israel, when it comes to Israel,
(46:51):
the West always poses like this is the exception to every rule.
Why? It's the exception to everyone.
So we need to change that. We need to change.
We don't change the rules or theOR the policy asks.
No, no, we need sanctions, we definitely need the arms
embargo, but we need to change and challenge this Israeli
exceptionalism. No, no, no, Israel must be just
(47:13):
like any other state actor in the world and must be treated
equally. But I'll go back to the idea of
the anti apartheid movement because that's the candle I was
talking about. That's the hope I was talking
about. I'll tell you what I see here is
as as intense, if not more. And I'd like to remind you and
remind your, your viewers, the last comers of the anti
(47:35):
apartheid movement were two countries, Israel and the US.
And today the last in the globe is Israel and the US.
Don't you see the similarity here?
Don't you see the power of the people?
Don't you see that we are upon that moment?
Don't you think this is our South Africa moment and that
anti apartheid movement was ableto free Nelson Mandela and was
(47:59):
able to free South Africa and I think we are almost there.
Absolutely. But I want our people to know
because our people are being deprived of you, of you.
You are unable to go and convey that message as a media.
You are unable to go and report what is happening to them in
Gaza and many parts of the West Bank.
By the way, Israel now is absolutely wanting to do all
(48:19):
this in the darkness. So we are hoping through these
conversations and we are conveying to our people and the
ceremony we conveyed here, raising the flag, commemorating
the UK recognition, telling our people, yeah, because of your
blood, because of your sacrifice, because of the last
100 years of steadfastness. So more than Arabic now the UK
(48:40):
has ended 100 years of denying our existence and denying our
right to self determination. So that is the hope.
The hope is that while we are being killed in the worst moment
of our history, a genocide is being done against us.
Lights are coming from many directions.
And how do you see your own rolein this future?
(49:01):
Some people wonder if you are part of the future of a
Palestinian state, a possible leader.
Is that how you see your own future?
My future. I'm just a person, my friend.
This is much, much bigger than me as a person, as a boy, from
very. That's a political answer.
No, it's not. No, no it's not.
Listen, the honour of my life really is to represent the
(49:25):
Palestinian people as an ambassador, first in the US and
then now in the UK. The honor of my life is to stand
there 2 days ago and declare that today Britain's denial of
the Palestinian people, Britain's most grave, gravest
historic injustice of denying our right to self determination
(49:48):
has ended. Doesn't matter where you are in
that state. And that what matters is you are
a son of that nation and you serve that nation wherever you
are. And I'll tell you, I felt that
was the most important moment ina long history.
And for a boy from the refugee camp again to have witnessed
(50:10):
that, I feel I'm done. I mean, I'm done.
Maybe I'll become you and I willwill do a joint podcast.
You and I will do a joint podcast, but now there is no
liberated, there is no Free State of Palestine.
Maybe once the state of Palestine is for you and I will
think about how do we do that. In the meantime, the real battle
is deliberation. I mean, look, this podcast is
(50:32):
partly about allowing people to dream.
And you, you know, you've been kind of laying out a, a vision
of hope. But there is a there is a much
less hopeful possibility as wellas you know, which is that the
Trump administration is not going anywhere, whether it's him
or somebody else. You are essentially down, down
the line. This way, Israel has worked out
(50:53):
that it can pretty much do what it wants and carry on the the
the likely successors to Netanyahu from the opposition
essentially think the same thingas he does when it comes to a
Palestinian state. So there's no, there's no
visionary leader in Israel who'ssaying let's let's go for, you
know, peace and A2 state solution who's likely to be
elected. And that this just carries on.
(51:17):
And that that's in truth is is quite a realistic scenario,
isn't it? It is if we don't really deliver
to the Israeli public. In the end, it's the Israeli
people who elect their leaders. And they elected Netanyahu
almost for 20 years, by the way,because the first time they
elected Netanyahu it was 1996. So it's almost 20 years.
They elected him on the basis that he will derail the Oslo
(51:38):
process. He promised them publicly in his
election campaign, and he will never, ever allow for a
Palestinian state. And he will do that while he
will normalize Israel's relations with the region.
Remember the normalization campaign and that occupation he
promised them will be permanent.Colonization permanent.
Besieging girls are permanent. Everything will be permanent,
(51:58):
permanent illegality and things will be fine.
I am the man, he told them, who can deal with America.
I'm the man who can deal with the region.
We need to give them a differentmessage and we need to tell them
you cannot have the cake and 82 and things come with
consequences. If you continue electing this
person, there is a price to be paid and the price has got to be
economic and the price has got to be cultural and the price has
(52:21):
got to be completely painful situation whereby you cannot
definitely, you cannot believe that you can continue
subjugating an entire nation permanently.
And we can do that again to South Africa example.
The people of the world are are doing that already.
The governments of the world have just begun to do that.
As I was working here, Slovenia announced that Benjamin
(52:46):
Netanyahu is persona and grata and, and Slovenia and he cannot
travel, travel ban. I, I think I mentioned this
earlier, this is going to increase and Slovenia is a
European country. This is going to increase and it
it will be on the. So the people's movement is
reaching governments now and if we get to a point where we have
false sanctions, not half sanctions, you know, there is a
(53:07):
lot of these measures that were taken by some countries,
including the UK, like the arms embargo, like the sanctions on
the Israeli government, like thesanctions on the settlers and
the settlements, All of them arehalf measures.
We want 4 measures apply the full force of the law and I
assure you people, including theIsraeli people, will sit, pause,
think again and realize no, no, no, no, this cannot continue.
(53:30):
We have got to bring about leaders that take us into a
different direction. Netanyahu was a clown.
They were realized. Netanyahu did not serve the
future of Israel. Netanyahu has isolated Israel
completely and has achieved nothing except murdering 20,000
children and together with more than 45 thousand of their
parents and families. That is not an achievement for a
(53:53):
military or for a country. That's nothing.
Destroying building is not an achievement.
Achievement is to provide betterfuture to your people and the
people around you and. Can you say that if, if the
world and Israel accept the ideaof accountability, that that
will also apply to whoever is left who was responsible for
(54:14):
October 7th or any other atrocities, and that the and
that the Palestinians want accountability in international
courts for Palestinian criminalsand war criminals?
Yeah, you asked me this questionlong ago and I remember it.
And I told you, of course you cannot be half committed or half
demanding or half pregnant. You have to be.
If you believe in something, youdo it all the way.
We believe and will adhere to international judicial system.
(54:40):
Sums on that. Thank you very much indeed.
Thank you for sharing your ways to change the world.
You can watch all of these interviews on the Channel 4 News
YouTube channel. Until next time, bye bye.
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