November 28, 2025 • 36 mins
Jan Ravens is one of the UK’s most celebrated impressionists and comedians. She first discovered comedy at Cambridge University’s Footlights society, where she made history as the first female president. Now she is best known for her work on the hit BBC show Dead Ringers, where her impressions of figures like Theresa May, Liz Truss, Margaret Thatcher and others have become iconic.
In this episode of Ways to Change the World, Krishnan Guru-Murthy speaks to Jan about the meaning of satire and the importance of a good laugh.
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Episode Transcript
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(00:00):
With Theresa May, it's the tension.
It's the kind of, you know, I want to smile, but the rest of
my face won't let me. And with Liz Truss, you know,
when Liz Truss first appeared talking about port markets, it
was like a little girl whose daddy had always told her she
was funny. It is very important to prick
pomposity. There's also a very, very
important aspect. I've got to have a laugh.
(00:22):
To be able to laugh gives peopleback the power in a way.
And I sort of think, yeah, have some of that.
Hello and welcome to Ways to Change the World.
I'm Christian Girimurphy, and this is the podcast in which we
talk to extraordinary people about the big ideas in their
lives and the events that have helped shape them.
(00:42):
My guest today is Jan Ravens, one of the UK's most celebrated
impressionists and comedians. Jan 1st discovered comedy at
Cambridge University's FootlightSociety, where she made history
as the first female president. From there she helped shape the
landscape of UK impression basedcomedy on both radio and TV.
With a career spanning over 3 decades, Jan's razor sharp
(01:03):
comedic talents has made her a household name.
Now she's perhaps best known forher work on the hit Radio 4 show
Dead Ringers, where her impressions of figures like
Theresa May, Liz Truss, MargaretThatcher and others have become
iconic. And Dead Ringers are on a 25th
anniversary tour which Jan is part of for the next few months.
(01:23):
Welcome and thanks for coming. Thank you for having me.
Now we start this usually by asking people how you want to
change the world. Wow, that's a big question.
Which? Is a big question.
I guess what it would be nice for there to be more honesty,
more honest, I mean, particularly in politics, and
for for people to feel allowed to be honest.
(01:45):
For I mean, I think part of the trouble with politics now is
that the, the news media is sucha kind of constant scrutiny that
that people are kind of trying to second guess, you know, what
the public might think. And it's, I mean, it's like the
thick of it. They're constantly trying to
coming up with the right quote. And, and I, I sort of, I sort of
feel that. Well, on the one hand, that
(02:07):
level of scrutiny has meant thatmaybe some of the people that
should have gone into politics aren't going into politics
because they can't be doing withall that.
And on the other hand, I think very often you you get
politicians and when you see them debating things in the
Commons and you think, gosh, she's got a lot of good ideas
or, you know, she's right about that, you know, that's, you
(02:28):
know, and then they become leader or Prime Minister even.
And all of a sudden the machine of the party kind of descends
upon them and they're and they're like a rabbit in the
headlights. They can't.
They can't sort of, you know, make that comment that they
would have made before. More honesty would would be
problematic for satirists, wouldn't it?
(02:49):
Or, well, I don't think so because presumably, you know, it
would, people would be freer. And so people would be saying as
well as, you know, that there would be maybe a bigger range
of, of opinion and policy because, yeah, so it might
actually be better for satirists.
(03:11):
I mean, I I enjoy your Ed Miliband nasal twang.
The Labour Party is like, you know, because, like I, you know,
I do Rachel Reeves, you know, who has this miserable adenoidal
sort of quality And you know, and Keir Starmer has this
earnest miserable adenoidal and Angela Renner has got the sort
of northern version of it, you know, a kind of a done the hard
(03:33):
yards, a dorsal fulfils dime me on her over the bath, you know,
and she's got that going on. It's like the Labour Party's
like a sort of nursery school where there's always a cold
going around like what's happening here.
But yes, they're all very all very miserable and adenoidal.
But, you know, not surprising. He, he had an operation Ed
Miliband, didn't he? I think on on his sinuses and
(03:54):
he's changed and he's certainly changed the style where he's
he's he has a lot more fun with his videos.
Do you like that? Do you like, do you like seeing
politicians playing with comedy?I haven't seen Ed Miliband's
comedy videos. I have to say it's very
difficult because so much, I mean, you know, not just because
(04:16):
of satirists, but I think it's very difficult for politicians
when so much of it these days isabout presentation.
I mean, you know, back in the day, you know, you'd have people
like I'm Widdecombe, you know, Imean, you still have got I'm
Widdecombe. But, you know, people now, you
know, you, you, you that sort ofthat sort of wobbly voice.
And, you know, you had people like Claire Short with her
clenched teeth, you know, because Tony Blair had wired her
(04:37):
mouth together so she couldn't make any more indiscreet remarks
about Iraq. But now everybody's kind of
blandified, you know, people kind.
Of screamed out, don't they? Yeah.
People kind of cloned and and soI mean, luckily there are still,
you know, characters like, well,there's lots of characters but
(05:01):
but there, but there are fewer of them.
Well, I was going to say, I mean, I mean, we've come through
a period where we had Theresa May and Liz Truss and these big
women leaders. Are we in a rather male
dominated period right now or, or are there enough people in
the front line for you still to?Yeah, well, to have work.
Yes, it's, it's, I mean, there'salways, there's always work,
(05:24):
there's always something. And and I think, you know,
people like Theresa May and certainly Liz Truss have had
enough of an impact that, you know, I mean, Liz, it's very
funny. We have a sort of like a sort of
theoretical laugh, Ometer on theour tour show where there are
certain certain lines, certain moments that, you know, are just
(05:47):
going to get an absolute woofer.You know, you're doing these
like 2 and 3000 seat theatres and this enormous wave of
laughter comes over at you. And one of them is when Liz
Truss appears because I always like it when Liz Truss appears
in sketches that aren't about Liz Truss.
So that we do a sketch which is like a parody of baby reindeer.
(06:07):
And so, you know, the guy startsnarrating, you know, she's so
she, you know, she was always strange looking, but, you know,
and she was this strange character in the corner.
And, you know, I just said to her, you know, you've got a nice
smile. And that was when it started.
You know, she turned round and looked at me and said, I know.
And I and everyone goes, whoa, you know, and there she is.
(06:31):
And and so, so yeah, there's, there's all there's.
A longevity to those people, even though they've gone.
Well, and also Liz Trust won't shut up.
You know, she has absolutely no,I mean, she she's honest.
I mean, I when, when her book came out, you know, I was asked
to go on a couple of podcasts and literally this book came out
(06:53):
and I did not have to parody it.You know, I just read out
sentences from, you know, how tochange the I mean, what is it?
Save the world or something. How to Save the West. 10 years
to Save the West. Her book's called.
I mean, you know, hubris or what?
It's kind of extraordinary. Oh yes, Liz Truss, you're the
person that we want to find out,you know, how we're going to
(07:14):
save the West from? And is Theresa May the same?
No, no, no. I mean in terms of longevity and
sort of comedy value to people. Comedy value, Yeah.
I mean, yeah, I do. I I still do.
Theresa May. I mean, the way the Dead Ringers
tour works is that it's, you know, it's been going for 25
years on and off, but mainly on and, and so, so, so you know,
(07:36):
there's one of a screen at the back.
And, and so the year comes up where the, where the, where the
sketch is set. So the Theresa May sketch is, is
about her kind of, you know, youknow, I, I know that you want a
Brexit deal, you know, and I talk about her, her diplophonic
voice, you know, this kind of voice where she's doing her own
discount the whole time and, and, and, and people love it and
(08:02):
I think. I mean, Theresa May is uncanny.
I think it's it's extraordinarily accurate.
Yeah, and it's. Because impressions don't always
have to be accurate, do they? You've got you capture the the
sort. Of yeah, I mean the Liz Trust is
a, is a, is a, is a caricature. It's, it's overblown.
And you know, I mean, there is something about her.
I mean, I think with Theresa Mayand Liz Trust are quite
(08:22):
interesting because I think I, Isort of I flatter myself, I
suppose, in thinking that their that my impression of them
portrays their tragic flaw. And with Theresa May, it's the
tension. It's the kind of, you know, I
want to smile, but the rest of my face won't let me, you know,
(08:45):
And and that was her sort of downfall as a politician really
was that she had no play. She had no kind of guys, can we
just have a chat in my office about this thing that I want to
get through? Because I think, you know, and
you know, that the the guys, I mean, there was a lot of
misogyny in the way she was treated.
I think, you know, like when youused to see film of her at
(09:05):
Brexit negotiations, she got cold shouldered and her tent and
her tension and, you know, the way total way she held herself
and, and and that was the kind of the comedy of the impression.
And also, you know, partly why she failed.
And with Liz Truss, you know, when Liz Truss first appeared,
you know, at the 2014 Tory conference, you know, sort of
(09:27):
talking about port markets and then kind of looking round, you
know, the laughter and applause and, you know, what's she doing?
Her timing, you know, like she just had these huge, you know,
chasms of space where she was just waiting for people to laugh
and applaud like this, you know,I mean, my sort of take on it
was like she was like a little girl whose daddy had always told
(09:49):
her she was funny, you know, because it was just sort of
like, you know, sort of like this the whole time and so.
She's super confident then. Super confident, totally
untrammeled by self doubt and and from people you know.
I occasionally have met people who have worked with her and
they say, you know, she wouldn'tlisten.
And actually that's clear in herbook.
(10:09):
You know, she said, you know, well, I said to them, you know,
that that this was the, I mean, you sort of think God, she's,
you know, she's really quite she's very, very sure of
herself. And, you know, when all the
evidence is to the contrary, it's just sort of like La, La,
La, La, la. And at the moment, I mean, you
know, obviously you've got big figures, although some of them,
(10:30):
you know, Angela Rayne has kind of disappeared for a while.
Yeah, but she'll be back. But she she, she might be back,
I suppose. And there's Kenny.
Well, I was going to say it's what what, what is it in chemi
that is the the tragic flaw or whatever that you.
Well, I, I, I don't know, because well, what, what, what
we, we characterise her on, on dead ringers as a low energy
(10:53):
weirdo. Because I think the trouble
about Kenny is that she hasn't really cut across, you know,
with, with Angela Rayner or Liz Truss or, you know, these
characters, they cut through. I mean, not as my characters, as
them. Even though Liz Truss was only
in power for. Days, yeah, but but she had
(11:14):
been, you know, the environment secretary, the foreign
secretary. I mean, her being foreign
secretary, that was the sort of like, you know, I'm going to be
your representative around the world, you know, and that was
when I thought of the thing I know, you know, it's kind of
like, Can you believe I'm representing our country to the
world? How long does it take you,
(11:35):
though, to, to get a impression?Or does it just depend on the
person? It really, I know Rory Bremner
has told me about how he, you know, sometimes has to work on
things for a long time before hefeels he's got it right.
It really, really varies. I mean, somebody like Liz Trust,
like I said, she sort of like leapt out.
And, you know, somebody like Fiona Bruce, I remember seeing
(11:56):
Fiona Bruce, you know, glimmering and shimmering at the
camera reading the news. You know how to read the news,
don't you? Just put your lips together and
blow. You know, and people like that
just sort of suggest that their character is is there right from
the beginning. But Theresa May, when we first
started thinking we should be doing Theresa May, she's home
secretary, I just couldn't get her.
(12:18):
And I sort of try all these cliches that she used to use and
that didn't sort of work. But the reason why, partly the
reason why it didn't work was that she, she was very invisible
as home secretary. She'd send, you know, her, her
junior minister out to read out the immigration figures and that
kind of thing. And she, she sort of like
(12:39):
basically what she was doing waslike, you know, laid low and
waited for the posh boys to screw it up, which they duly
did. And and she went.
So is there Is there the same problem with Kenny Badnock in
the? There's not a lot to get hold of
at the. Moment there's not a lot there's
that sort of, you know, the O sound and and but but she's not
she's sort of not getting it andshe's you know, she's she's not
(13:03):
she's not very good at the sort of back and forth either.
So yeah, I haven't really got AII mean.
I, I personally don't find the low energy weirdo thing that
we're doing that the script writers, I mean, and the script
writers, you know, we are so blessed, hashtag blessed with
our script writers because they,they keep on coming up with
(13:27):
amazing material, even for issues that you sort of think,
Oh my God, what are we going to find to say about this?
And they, they come managed to come up with brilliant stuff.
But I I don't find the low energy weirdo thing a satisfying
sort of comic caricature. It's not quite where she is now
either 'cause she's trying to bethe opposite of that.
She's trying to be sort of. Much more.
(13:47):
Yeah, in the in the thick of it.But I suppose the trouble with
her is that you might spend a year getting her right.
Yes. And then she might be gone.
Yeah. Well, you have to, you know, you
just have to prepare for that really and that.
Must be that must be infuriating, mustn't it?
When people, well, yes, you know, I mean, Liz Truss could
have, you know, gone on forever.But yeah, but she does.
Amazing. And she she does anyway, I
(14:07):
suppose. Yeah, as a as a comic character,
you know, she's she's almost, it's very that.
Happens. I mean, I remember, I mean, I, I
grew up with Mike Yellwood on the TV and I remember in the
80s, Mike Yarwood was still doing Harold Wilson and Ted
Heath years and years after theywere gone from the political
scene, yet they still had purchase.
(14:29):
Yes, and I and I guess that was also because he'd created those
characters like Denis Healy going what is silly Billy and
all that kind of thing, because he'd he'd created those
characters and also everybody was watching Mike Yarwood, you
know, the the audience wasn't sofragmented and and, and so
everybody caught on to to his characters and loved them.
(14:52):
You know, doing a tour that celebrates 25 years.
It's like being a sort of rock band on tour in a way and that
people want you to play the hits.
You know, don't try any of your new characters here.
Just. Give us what we know.
Yeah, come on, do your CharlotteGreen.
You know, and lot of the Radio 4audience love things about Radio
(15:12):
4. So you know, we're doing
sketches about The Archers and you know, the continuity
announcers and poetry pleas and you know, all those well loved
Radio 4 programmes. So that that takes me to the
what the, what the purpose of the satire is.
Yeah. And how subversive you really
want it to be. Because if you'll do, I mean,
you know, you might think, well,if you're doing, if you're doing
(15:33):
satire on Radio 4, which is pillar of the establishment, is
it is it satire that's designed to amuse in a gentle way for a,
you know, a well heeled audience?
Or is it supposed to actually rough things up a bit?
Well, I think in an ideal world it would do both.
(15:53):
And I think there are elements of it that that definitely do
ruffle things up a bit. I mean, there's quite a few
things that you think, Oh my God, we're never going to get
that. I'm amazed often that what what
you do get away with on dead ringers, Yeah.
Yeah. And, and I think that's great.
And it's, I mean, you know, partof your question is like you're
(16:13):
doing it for this well heeled audience.
I mean, the, the you know, the nice thing would be is that is,
is like if if other people find it.
And I think in the world of podcasts and, you know, being
able to get it at any point on BBC Sounds, I think I think it
does get a get a younger audience and you know, more
(16:34):
people kind of absorb it in thatway.
But but some satirists are quiteangry about the world, and I
never get the sense that a satirist's dead ringers is is
angry. I think it's kind of it sees the
fun and it sees the humor. I think, I think, I think I
can't speak for the the whole team.
I mean, I think there is a lot of anger there, but, but anger
(16:57):
isn't funny. And, and, and I think, you know,
I mean, I, there are some thingsthat we've done.
I mean, and Bill Dare, the creator and producer who we
sadly lost earlier this year, really, really tragically, you
know, sometimes things, you know, we do a thing and it
(17:18):
wouldn't get that many laughs, but he'd say it hasn't got that
many laughs. But this is, you know, it's
important that we do this. This is satirical and and I
think, you know, part of the point of satire.
You know, people talk very kind of pompously about satire and
and I do myself, in fact. But and I think, you know, it is
(17:39):
very important to prick pomposity and to I mean, I I
there's this brilliant quote by Jessica Mitford, which is I
think I I'm probably slightly paraphrasing, but it's like we
may not be able to change the world, but at least we can
embarrass the guilty. And and I sort of think, yeah,
(17:59):
have some of that, you know, andto embarrass it to to point
things up in a different way that that people might not have
thought about them. I mean, obviously some of it is
caricature and it's it's overblown and and you know,
there's a danger of, well, you know, if you're making, you
know, Donald Trump or Boris Johnson into this, you know,
(18:19):
buffoon of a character, Are you kind of making?
Are you kind of inuring the public to their to the sort of
malevolence of their, you know, their intention or, or their,
their effect? And you know that there may be
something in that. But I think there's also a very,
(18:41):
very important aspect to maybe satire or maybe what we do,
depending on how how much you think the two crossover, which
is that you've got to have a laugh to be able to laugh.
Sort of gives it gives people back the power in a way, gives
you, gives you something where you can go.
Yeah, yeah, you know, I am goingto I am going to have a laugh at
(19:05):
you. And you know, I mean, Thora
heard used to say the gift of laughter is a wonderful thing.
You know, God bless laws and andactually, you know, we I mean,
it has been so moving going around the country and these
huge audiences just loving it. There is a huge and it is bigger
(19:26):
than sort of the four of us doing the show.
It's like it's, it's, it's the, it's the thing, it's dead
ringers. It's this thing that they love.
And there has been with them, you know, and often kids have
been brought up on it, you know,and they just love it and they
love being allowed to laugh. And as you say, they love that
thing. And my God, how did they get
(19:47):
away with that? And maybe we get away with it a
bit more because it's on the radio, not the telly, because
people say, oh, there's not enough satire on the telly.
And I mean, we did do dead ringers on the telly for seven
years and. What, Why?
Why did that stop? Well, quite a lot of comedy
series sort of have their time. They don't last.
(20:09):
I mean, you know, things like sort of goodness gracious me or,
you know, I mean, all sorts of comedy series.
Don't I mean, have I got news for you?
Is is, you know, an exception tothat rule?
But if it lasts 25 years on the radio, then why?
Why is TV different? Because it's so much more
expensive, so much more expensive, so much more labour
(20:30):
intensive. I mean, when we were doing Dead
Ringers, we'd have a, we'd have a four, three or four week
location filming period where we'd film all the sketches that
were like programme parodies that weren't topical.
And then we'd have a week in thestudio rehearsing, writing and
(20:51):
rehearsing the topical stuff that was so that was sketches
about the things that had happened that week.
And then on the night, you know,either, you know, so I'd be
doing like Fiona Bruce and the headlines, you know, the, the,
the news lines would come in andI would sort of be reading them
on the auto queue like as they were coming in kind of thing.
And so they were like last thingon AI, can't remember what night
(21:13):
it was now, but you know then sothe next day, you know it'd be
edited and then the following day.
Around, yeah. Yeah, yeah.
And you know, I would spend longer in makeup than I did on
the set because, you know, a lotof the makeups, the look of that
trying to look like people is, is really hard.
And then also you get people saying, well, you don't look
very much like them. And.
And so they're sort of distracted by the fact that, but
(21:35):
you're not quite, you know, exactly looking like them.
But this has been a sort of a trend in TV generally, isn't it,
with TV comedy And that, that that does seem to be less of it.
That is very successful. And people always, you know, the
commissioners always say how expensive it is, especially if
it, if it doesn't work. Because the sketch is like, you
know, a minute long, 2 minutes long.
You know, you've got a set, you've got the costumes, you've
(21:57):
got the makeup, you've got setups and lighting and you
know, it's, yeah, it's really labour intensive and.
Various so so where do you thinkthe sort of the the well, the
present and future of comedy? Is it, is it on stage, hugely
on, or is it on social media or a bit of both?
Well, I guess it is on social media.
I mean, I, you know, I sort of can't be doing with that, you
(22:18):
know, but I mean, I know that lots of, lots of comedians have,
you know, made their made a hugesuccess because of TikTok and
Instagram and stuff. And, you know, that's brilliant
and good for them. But but I think it's hugely in
live work. I mean, the lots of production
(22:40):
companies and agencies are saying to their clients, you've
got to get get out there becausethat's, you know, people are
hungry for it. I mean, like, you know, dead
ringers have been on tour, You know, two, we were on doing a
show in New York. Two days later, Rory Bremner
arrives and does his show in NewYork.
I mean, there's this huge appetite, the fast show, we're
on tour. Everyone's touring, aren't they?
(23:01):
I mean, not just comedians. It's like this.
There's a big live theatre thingwith with politicians and
serious figures. Yes.
And yes, exactly. People sort of say, you know, an
evening with where there are. People who are obviously
spending money and going to see see things.
Yes, I think and I think that maybe, you know, we have been
sort of locked into our screens too much.
And so the live experience is, you know, it's it's a fantastic
(23:25):
thing. It's because it's, you know,
there's nothing like it. It's, it's a really exciting
thing. And also like on our show,
we're, we're doing it like a radio recording.
So we're standing in front of microphones with a script like
we would be in the Broadcasting House theatre, you know.
But of course we're, you know, we're, we're corpsing, we're
screwing up. We're doing improvised bits and
then we do bits about how we do impressions and which are our
(23:48):
favorite ones. And, you know, so there's all
sorts of bits that are kind of added on to the, to the, you
know, that that are only happening when you're in that
theatre right at that moment. And that's.
Because you, you've got a sort of, you've got an insight into
the into the new generation as well because your son Alfie
Brown, of course, is a very successful comedian.
I mean, do you, do you see a difference in in the in the way
(24:11):
the new generation are performing and mapping out their
careers or has it essentially stayed the same?
Oh, God, no. It hasn't stayed the same at
all. I mean, for younger comedians,
the pressure is on to, you know,to to be on social media.
You know, you seem to sort of like, see people, you know, they
(24:32):
come into your Instagram feed and then all of a sudden, you
know, they're, they're playing huge theatres.
How did that happen? And it happens because you've
seen it on your phone. And so have, you know, thousands
of other people. So social media is the marketing
tool but but live shows is wherethe money is.
Well, I, yeah, I, I mean, I don't, I'm, you know, there
(24:53):
obviously is money in telly if you, if you can get on and, you
know, people on have I got news for you?
Or I mean, there are, you know, people are making money doing
comedy programs, but maybe there's just fewer of them.
I mean, and you know it, yes. And also I, I think people do
(25:16):
make money on social media, don't they?
Because they get sponsored and all that.
I mean, my other I've got a younger son who's also doing
comedy bits on TikTok and you know, and he does a podcast and
it's all about getting sponsors and all that.
And are you doing what you always wanted to do?
I mean that, you know, how did you become or why did you become
(25:36):
an impressionist? Well, I.
Did you grow up as a girl thinking No, that's what I want
to do? You know, I wanted to be, I
wanted to be Glenda Jackson. You know, I wanted Glenda
Jackson came from this town on the Wirral where I come from,
Hoy Lake. And you know, Glenda was out
there being, you know, ElizabethR and being at the RSC and on
in, you know, Oscar winning movies and all that.
(25:59):
And I thought, Oh my God, you know, if Glenda can do it, I
can. And so I so I wanted to be an
actress. I wanted to, I mean, and I am, I
am an actress and I I, you know,I, you know, I, I've done all
that. I haven't don't do so much
anymore, but I have, you know, and I, you know, I do kind of,
(26:20):
you know, if you're going to sort of have regrets, I kind of
think, well, I wish I had done more of that.
I wish I hadn't got so sort of not sidetracked by the comedy,
but I'm just naturally a funny person and I'm naturally a piss
taker, I suppose. And that's part of what being an
impressionist is. It's having that kind of a bit
of a sense of mischief and a sense of being slightly a
(26:40):
watcher. And, and whilst I enjoy that, I
also love, you know, the opportunity to, you know, to, to
be in a Shakespeare play or to do a new play by David Edgar or
something. To immerse yourself in a world
you know, and the headspace of another character.
(27:03):
And to, you know, to to work with poetry and beautiful
language, you know, that nourishes a different part of
you and I and I. Because you did do Shakespeare,
didn't you? Yeah, yeah, the RSC.
Yes, yes, well done. But I suppose, I suppose the, I
suppose that you know, it's, it's important to know what
you're really good at as. Well, well, that's the thing.
(27:23):
I mean, there are so many brilliant actors, but there
aren't many people that can do what I do.
And, and I suppose what I do it,you know, the impressions thing
is like my USP and I have now got a reputation of, you know,
being pretty good at it. And there are some, you know,
things people say, well, can youdo this?
(27:44):
And I go, well, I'm not sure howwell I can do it, but I'm pretty
sure that there's nobody that could do it, that people might
be able to do it as well. But I'm, I'm pretty sure that
nobody could do it better. I mean, not with every voice
because we've all got different tambours and different ranges
and everything. But but yeah, I, I feel pretty
confident about impressions. I don't get nervous about it
(28:06):
anymore. I know I'm pretty good at it and
do. People come to you and say, can
you do such and such a person or, or or do you decide who
you're going to do? And then the writers work around
that. Well, yeah, a bit of both.
I mean, like, because a lot of the time, like, you know, with
Fiona Bruce, when we were doing the telly show, I think, and I
said, Oh my God, have you seen Fiona Bruce reading the news?
(28:28):
You know, and and so we did thiswhole, you know, series of
sketches on Fiona Bruce kind of,you know, I mean, it was, and I
sort of had, I sort of, I didn'twant her to be a sort of a sex
object. I wanted her to be like, you
know. Yeah, she loves it.
You know, and do you know, come at me if you dare kind of thing,
you know and. But your, your news, your news
(28:50):
impressions are, are, are surprising in a way because I
suppose my generation, you know,these are all my generation of
people. And I, I think of our generation
as very, you know, sort of homogenised.
We're kind of we're not people who kind of have absurd
characteristics or mannerisms onthe whole.
But you found for things that are distinctive.
(29:12):
Yeah, curious about. Various different.
People. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah,
yeah. I mean, I think, I think, I
think Rory, I mean, I because I'm doing these some shows with
him at the moment. And he, he did want to be an
impressionist. He loved the voices and he loved
doing the sports commentators and kind of that was what he
wanted to do. He wanted, he wanted to be a
(29:36):
funny voice person. And Lewis McLeod is the same.
And John, I think Jon Coulshall got into it through sort of
being a DJ and doing comedy bitsas, as a DJ.
But, but no, I, I wanted to be an actor.
And then, you know it, when I was at Cambridge, you know, I, I
auditioned for plays in my firstterm and, you know, Jacobean
comedies and Shakespeare and Restoration and all this, and
(29:58):
then, you know, got into the Footlights and, and then that
sort of took over. How?
I mean, you know, you, you were the first female president of
the Footlights. How difficult was it to be that?
How big a deal was it at the time, really?
Difficult. I mean, it was like, because I
thought if I screwed this up, we're not going to get never
going to get another one. Because I, because I had this
(30:20):
sort of series of so I was the first female president of
Footlights. Then I was the first woman to
direct the Footlights review theyear after because I directed
Stephen Fry and Hugh Laurie and Emma Thompson.
I suppose we should explain whata big deal Footlights was as
well in those days, because I mean it, it had spawned.
Well, yes, you know, so, yeah, Monty Python and you know, that
(30:41):
was the week that was and lots of the when they were all from
Oxford and Cambridge. I mean, you know, but yes,
Footlights was a was a huge dealand and continues to be.
I mean, you know, you know, NickMuhammad is was in Footlights.
You know, it's, it's it carries on and you know, different years
have more successful than othersand all that.
(31:03):
But I mean, the year that I was directing it, you know, Stephen
Fry, Hugh Laurie, Emma Thompson,Tony Slattery, I mean, you know,
amazing, absolutely amazing and quite terrifying.
So the first woman to direct it.So Oh my God, you know.
And then as a result of that, I got offered a job at the BBC as
a radio comedy producer, which was a very well trodden path for
(31:24):
all sorts of blokes from Cambridge who'd been in
Footlights or director. And and again, I was the first
woman and, you know, apparently the head of department who was,
it was like the Golf Club, the BBC at that point, you know.
And so now look here, you know, that head of department who was
called Bobby Jay and he was sortof, you know, you could always
imagine him in the RAF, you know, in the Officers Mess.
(31:47):
Look here, you know, we're goingto have, you know, a female
producer. So we might have to be a tread a
bit carefully at certain times of the month, you know, and we
sort of like all these guys. What?
But yes, it was a lot of pressure, a lot of pressure.
And and actually I kind of decide I stayed about 18 months,
(32:09):
I think, as a producer. And I because I kind of knew
that I really wanted to perform.I mean, I really wanted to act
because when I left Cambridge, Ileft at the same time as Sandy
Toxvig and Sandy and I had been in the Footlights together and,
and she got a job in Rep at sortof Exeter Theatre, Northcote
(32:30):
Theatre in Exeter. And I was so jealous because
that was what I really wanted todo.
And of course, they were quite not that many Rep theatres with
a Rep company where you do different plays and, you know,
it was such a good training. And now I I mean that you can
count, I think on the fingers ofone hand, if even if that the
amount of, you know, Rep companies that there are.
(32:52):
I mean, you know, we're talking about how live theatre, but, but
actual theatre, actual, you know, theatres that, you know,
sustain A repertory company and put on production after
production, you know, on a monthby month basis, you know, hardly
exists at all. And, and do you think the fact
that we are now in an age where people are older and staying in
(33:14):
their jobs and high profile for longer means that you'll be able
to carry on doing this for as long as you want?
Or do you think, oh, maybe I need to pivot back to drama?
I would pivot back to drama if anybody gave me a bloody job.
But you know, it's like, I think, I think particularly when
you know, I mean, you do get pigeon holed.
And I think particularly when you're an impressionist people
(33:35):
because of being a kind of a mischief, you know, a kind of
Lord of misrule kind of, you know, jester, you know, you're a
watcher, you're an observer. So I think people are a bit sort
of circumspect sometimes about about whether you can actually
act And but like I say, I'm not,you know, it's, it's a slight
sort of regret. But, you know, I mean, when I
(33:57):
think about what dead ringers has brought to my life, you
know, in terms of, you know, thelongevity of it and also the the
other opportunities it's given me, you know, I've, I've hosted
documentaries, I've been on, youknow, was on strictly obvious,
you know, all sorts of things that happened because of it that
would never have happened without it.
(34:19):
And just the. I imagine you laugh more than
most people. Don't.
Yeah, which? Is quite a bonus.
Yeah. Oh God.
I mean, laughter is so important.
I mean, like I say, you know, satire is important, but
laughter is, is is so important.I mean, did you think of it as
therapy? I sort of use comedy like that
sometimes. Me and my wife actually will
(34:40):
will sometimes say, you know what, we need to go and see some
comedy because to kind of cheer ourselves.
Up. Yeah, yeah.
I mean, but do you think, I mean, do you think topical
comedy does cheer you up in thatsense?
I mean, do you think, do you think?
I mean, that's what I'm saying. Do you agree with that?
Yeah, yeah, totally. Because especially, you know,
even if the news is very dark, that's the point of top.
(35:02):
I think it's just the physical reaction of laughter that makes
you feel better. It doesn't matter what you're
laughing at, if you laugh, you will feel better.
And that's why I thought we sometimes go, you know what, we
just need to book. Some live comedy and go see it
we. Will feel better in a couple of
weeks time. So I think.
I mean, I presume you laugh while you're doing it.
(35:24):
Yes, I mean. You know, does doing comedy make
you happy as a person rather than the old cliche of the
miserable, the miserable comic? Well, I suppose I can only, I
mean, we, we all have said the four of us doing the live show,
doing this tour has been the most fun and we and we still
(35:50):
enjoy each other's performances and we can still laugh at and
with each other. And obviously there are bits
where you think, oh, here we go,we're going to do this bit
again. But but there are other bits
where, you know, it's still, youknow, and, and to hear how much
the audience is loving it. I mean, like I said, we've
played these huge theatres. We're doing, we're doing a week
(36:11):
more of gigs in January, culminating at the London
Palladium. We're doing another tranche of
gigs in March, you know, all sorts of theatres all over the
country. And the demand for it seems to
just go on and on. It's extraordinary.
And I think, yeah, people want to laugh.
And they, and like I say, they do want to laugh.
You know what's going on in the world.
(36:32):
Well, let's have the carry on ofthe you carry on letting us.
Jan Ravens, thank you very much indeed for joining us.
Thank you. And that was ways to change the
world. You can watch all of these
interviews on the Channel 4 NewsYouTube channel.
Until next time, bye bye.
With Theresa May, it's the tension.
It's the kind of, you know, I want to smile, but the rest of
my face won't let me. And with Liz Truss, you know,
when Liz Truss first appeared talking about port markets, it
was like a little girl whose daddy had always told her she
was funny. It is very important to prick
pomposity. There's also a very, very
important aspect. I've got to have a laugh.
(00:22):
To be able to laugh gives peopleback the power in a way.
And I sort of think, yeah, have some of that.
Hello and welcome to Ways to Change the World.
I'm Christian Girimurphy, and this is the podcast in which we
talk to extraordinary people about the big ideas in their
lives and the events that have helped shape them.
(00:42):
My guest today is Jan Ravens, one of the UK's most celebrated
impressionists and comedians. Jan 1st discovered comedy at
Cambridge University's FootlightSociety, where she made history
as the first female president. From there she helped shape the
landscape of UK impression basedcomedy on both radio and TV.
With a career spanning over 3 decades, Jan's razor sharp
(01:03):
comedic talents has made her a household name.
Now she's perhaps best known forher work on the hit Radio 4 show
Dead Ringers, where her impressions of figures like
Theresa May, Liz Truss, MargaretThatcher and others have become
iconic. And Dead Ringers are on a 25th
anniversary tour which Jan is part of for the next few months.
(01:23):
Welcome and thanks for coming. Thank you for having me.
Now we start this usually by asking people how you want to
change the world. Wow, that's a big question.
Which? Is a big question.
I guess what it would be nice for there to be more honesty,
more honest, I mean, particularly in politics, and
for for people to feel allowed to be honest.
(01:45):
For I mean, I think part of the trouble with politics now is
that the, the news media is sucha kind of constant scrutiny that
that people are kind of trying to second guess, you know, what
the public might think. And it's, I mean, it's like the
thick of it. They're constantly trying to
coming up with the right quote. And, and I, I sort of, I sort of
feel that. Well, on the one hand, that
(02:07):
level of scrutiny has meant thatmaybe some of the people that
should have gone into politics aren't going into politics
because they can't be doing withall that.
And on the other hand, I think very often you you get
politicians and when you see them debating things in the
Commons and you think, gosh, she's got a lot of good ideas
or, you know, she's right about that, you know, that's, you
(02:28):
know, and then they become leader or Prime Minister even.
And all of a sudden the machine of the party kind of descends
upon them and they're and they're like a rabbit in the
headlights. They can't.
They can't sort of, you know, make that comment that they
would have made before. More honesty would would be
problematic for satirists, wouldn't it?
(02:49):
Or, well, I don't think so because presumably, you know, it
would, people would be freer. And so people would be saying as
well as, you know, that there would be maybe a bigger range
of, of opinion and policy because, yeah, so it might
actually be better for satirists.
(03:11):
I mean, I I enjoy your Ed Miliband nasal twang.
The Labour Party is like, you know, because, like I, you know,
I do Rachel Reeves, you know, who has this miserable adenoidal
sort of quality And you know, and Keir Starmer has this
earnest miserable adenoidal and Angela Renner has got the sort
of northern version of it, you know, a kind of a done the hard
(03:33):
yards, a dorsal fulfils dime me on her over the bath, you know,
and she's got that going on. It's like the Labour Party's
like a sort of nursery school where there's always a cold
going around like what's happening here.
But yes, they're all very all very miserable and adenoidal.
But, you know, not surprising. He, he had an operation Ed
Miliband, didn't he? I think on on his sinuses and
(03:54):
he's changed and he's certainly changed the style where he's
he's he has a lot more fun with his videos.
Do you like that? Do you like, do you like seeing
politicians playing with comedy?I haven't seen Ed Miliband's
comedy videos. I have to say it's very
difficult because so much, I mean, you know, not just because
(04:16):
of satirists, but I think it's very difficult for politicians
when so much of it these days isabout presentation.
I mean, you know, back in the day, you know, you'd have people
like I'm Widdecombe, you know, Imean, you still have got I'm
Widdecombe. But, you know, people now, you
know, you, you, you that sort ofthat sort of wobbly voice.
And, you know, you had people like Claire Short with her
clenched teeth, you know, because Tony Blair had wired her
(04:37):
mouth together so she couldn't make any more indiscreet remarks
about Iraq. But now everybody's kind of
blandified, you know, people kind.
Of screamed out, don't they? Yeah.
People kind of cloned and and soI mean, luckily there are still,
you know, characters like, well,there's lots of characters but
(05:01):
but there, but there are fewer of them.
Well, I was going to say, I mean, I mean, we've come through
a period where we had Theresa May and Liz Truss and these big
women leaders. Are we in a rather male
dominated period right now or, or are there enough people in
the front line for you still to?Yeah, well, to have work.
Yes, it's, it's, I mean, there'salways, there's always work,
(05:24):
there's always something. And and I think, you know,
people like Theresa May and certainly Liz Truss have had
enough of an impact that, you know, I mean, Liz, it's very
funny. We have a sort of like a sort of
theoretical laugh, Ometer on theour tour show where there are
certain certain lines, certain moments that, you know, are just
(05:47):
going to get an absolute woofer.You know, you're doing these
like 2 and 3000 seat theatres and this enormous wave of
laughter comes over at you. And one of them is when Liz
Truss appears because I always like it when Liz Truss appears
in sketches that aren't about Liz Truss.
So that we do a sketch which is like a parody of baby reindeer.
(06:07):
And so, you know, the guy startsnarrating, you know, she's so
she, you know, she was always strange looking, but, you know,
and she was this strange character in the corner.
And, you know, I just said to her, you know, you've got a nice
smile. And that was when it started.
You know, she turned round and looked at me and said, I know.
And I and everyone goes, whoa, you know, and there she is.
(06:31):
And and so, so yeah, there's, there's all there's.
A longevity to those people, even though they've gone.
Well, and also Liz Trust won't shut up.
You know, she has absolutely no,I mean, she she's honest.
I mean, I when, when her book came out, you know, I was asked
to go on a couple of podcasts and literally this book came out
(06:53):
and I did not have to parody it.You know, I just read out
sentences from, you know, how tochange the I mean, what is it?
Save the world or something. How to Save the West. 10 years
to Save the West. Her book's called.
I mean, you know, hubris or what?
It's kind of extraordinary. Oh yes, Liz Truss, you're the
person that we want to find out,you know, how we're going to
(07:14):
save the West from? And is Theresa May the same?
No, no, no. I mean in terms of longevity and
sort of comedy value to people. Comedy value, Yeah.
I mean, yeah, I do. I I still do.
Theresa May. I mean, the way the Dead Ringers
tour works is that it's, you know, it's been going for 25
years on and off, but mainly on and, and so, so, so you know,
(07:36):
there's one of a screen at the back.
And, and so the year comes up where the, where the, where the
sketch is set. So the Theresa May sketch is, is
about her kind of, you know, youknow, I, I know that you want a
Brexit deal, you know, and I talk about her, her diplophonic
voice, you know, this kind of voice where she's doing her own
discount the whole time and, and, and, and people love it and
(08:02):
I think. I mean, Theresa May is uncanny.
I think it's it's extraordinarily accurate.
Yeah, and it's. Because impressions don't always
have to be accurate, do they? You've got you capture the the
sort. Of yeah, I mean the Liz Trust is
a, is a, is a, is a caricature. It's, it's overblown.
And you know, I mean, there is something about her.
I mean, I think with Theresa Mayand Liz Trust are quite
(08:22):
interesting because I think I, Isort of I flatter myself, I
suppose, in thinking that their that my impression of them
portrays their tragic flaw. And with Theresa May, it's the
tension. It's the kind of, you know, I
want to smile, but the rest of my face won't let me, you know,
(08:45):
And and that was her sort of downfall as a politician really
was that she had no play. She had no kind of guys, can we
just have a chat in my office about this thing that I want to
get through? Because I think, you know, and
you know, that the the guys, I mean, there was a lot of
misogyny in the way she was treated.
I think, you know, like when youused to see film of her at
(09:05):
Brexit negotiations, she got cold shouldered and her tent and
her tension and, you know, the way total way she held herself
and, and and that was the kind of the comedy of the impression.
And also, you know, partly why she failed.
And with Liz Truss, you know, when Liz Truss first appeared,
you know, at the 2014 Tory conference, you know, sort of
(09:27):
talking about port markets and then kind of looking round, you
know, the laughter and applause and, you know, what's she doing?
Her timing, you know, like she just had these huge, you know,
chasms of space where she was just waiting for people to laugh
and applaud like this, you know,I mean, my sort of take on it
was like she was like a little girl whose daddy had always told
(09:49):
her she was funny, you know, because it was just sort of
like, you know, sort of like this the whole time and so.
She's super confident then. Super confident, totally
untrammeled by self doubt and and from people you know.
I occasionally have met people who have worked with her and
they say, you know, she wouldn'tlisten.
And actually that's clear in herbook.
(10:09):
You know, she said, you know, well, I said to them, you know,
that that this was the, I mean, you sort of think God, she's,
you know, she's really quite she's very, very sure of
herself. And, you know, when all the
evidence is to the contrary, it's just sort of like La, La,
La, La, la. And at the moment, I mean, you
know, obviously you've got big figures, although some of them,
(10:30):
you know, Angela Rayne has kind of disappeared for a while.
Yeah, but she'll be back. But she she, she might be back,
I suppose. And there's Kenny.
Well, I was going to say it's what what, what is it in chemi
that is the the tragic flaw or whatever that you.
Well, I, I, I don't know, because well, what, what, what
we, we characterise her on, on dead ringers as a low energy
(10:53):
weirdo. Because I think the trouble
about Kenny is that she hasn't really cut across, you know,
with, with Angela Rayner or Liz Truss or, you know, these
characters, they cut through. I mean, not as my characters, as
them. Even though Liz Truss was only
in power for. Days, yeah, but but she had
(11:14):
been, you know, the environment secretary, the foreign
secretary. I mean, her being foreign
secretary, that was the sort of like, you know, I'm going to be
your representative around the world, you know, and that was
when I thought of the thing I know, you know, it's kind of
like, Can you believe I'm representing our country to the
world? How long does it take you,
(11:35):
though, to, to get a impression?Or does it just depend on the
person? It really, I know Rory Bremner
has told me about how he, you know, sometimes has to work on
things for a long time before hefeels he's got it right.
It really, really varies. I mean, somebody like Liz Trust,
like I said, she sort of like leapt out.
And, you know, somebody like Fiona Bruce, I remember seeing
(11:56):
Fiona Bruce, you know, glimmering and shimmering at the
camera reading the news. You know how to read the news,
don't you? Just put your lips together and
blow. You know, and people like that
just sort of suggest that their character is is there right from
the beginning. But Theresa May, when we first
started thinking we should be doing Theresa May, she's home
secretary, I just couldn't get her.
(12:18):
And I sort of try all these cliches that she used to use and
that didn't sort of work. But the reason why, partly the
reason why it didn't work was that she, she was very invisible
as home secretary. She'd send, you know, her, her
junior minister out to read out the immigration figures and that
kind of thing. And she, she sort of like
(12:39):
basically what she was doing waslike, you know, laid low and
waited for the posh boys to screw it up, which they duly
did. And and she went.
So is there Is there the same problem with Kenny Badnock in
the? There's not a lot to get hold of
at the. Moment there's not a lot there's
that sort of, you know, the O sound and and but but she's not
she's sort of not getting it andshe's you know, she's she's not
(13:03):
she's not very good at the sort of back and forth either.
So yeah, I haven't really got AII mean.
I, I personally don't find the low energy weirdo thing that
we're doing that the script writers, I mean, and the script
writers, you know, we are so blessed, hashtag blessed with
our script writers because they,they keep on coming up with
(13:27):
amazing material, even for issues that you sort of think,
Oh my God, what are we going to find to say about this?
And they, they come managed to come up with brilliant stuff.
But I I don't find the low energy weirdo thing a satisfying
sort of comic caricature. It's not quite where she is now
either 'cause she's trying to bethe opposite of that.
She's trying to be sort of. Much more.
(13:47):
Yeah, in the in the thick of it.But I suppose the trouble with
her is that you might spend a year getting her right.
Yes. And then she might be gone.
Yeah. Well, you have to, you know, you
just have to prepare for that really and that.
Must be that must be infuriating, mustn't it?
When people, well, yes, you know, I mean, Liz Truss could
have, you know, gone on forever.But yeah, but she does.
Amazing. And she she does anyway, I
(14:07):
suppose. Yeah, as a as a comic character,
you know, she's she's almost, it's very that.
Happens. I mean, I remember, I mean, I, I
grew up with Mike Yellwood on the TV and I remember in the
80s, Mike Yarwood was still doing Harold Wilson and Ted
Heath years and years after theywere gone from the political
scene, yet they still had purchase.
(14:29):
Yes, and I and I guess that was also because he'd created those
characters like Denis Healy going what is silly Billy and
all that kind of thing, because he'd he'd created those
characters and also everybody was watching Mike Yarwood, you
know, the the audience wasn't sofragmented and and, and so
everybody caught on to to his characters and loved them.
(14:52):
You know, doing a tour that celebrates 25 years.
It's like being a sort of rock band on tour in a way and that
people want you to play the hits.
You know, don't try any of your new characters here.
Just. Give us what we know.
Yeah, come on, do your CharlotteGreen.
You know, and lot of the Radio 4audience love things about Radio
(15:12):
4. So you know, we're doing
sketches about The Archers and you know, the continuity
announcers and poetry pleas and you know, all those well loved
Radio 4 programmes. So that that takes me to the
what the, what the purpose of the satire is.
Yeah. And how subversive you really
want it to be. Because if you'll do, I mean,
you know, you might think, well,if you're doing, if you're doing
(15:33):
satire on Radio 4, which is pillar of the establishment, is
it is it satire that's designed to amuse in a gentle way for a,
you know, a well heeled audience?
Or is it supposed to actually rough things up a bit?
Well, I think in an ideal world it would do both.
(15:53):
And I think there are elements of it that that definitely do
ruffle things up a bit. I mean, there's quite a few
things that you think, Oh my God, we're never going to get
that. I'm amazed often that what what
you do get away with on dead ringers, Yeah.
Yeah. And, and I think that's great.
And it's, I mean, you know, partof your question is like you're
(16:13):
doing it for this well heeled audience.
I mean, the, the you know, the nice thing would be is that is,
is like if if other people find it.
And I think in the world of podcasts and, you know, being
able to get it at any point on BBC Sounds, I think I think it
does get a get a younger audience and you know, more
(16:34):
people kind of absorb it in thatway.
But but some satirists are quiteangry about the world, and I
never get the sense that a satirist's dead ringers is is
angry. I think it's kind of it sees the
fun and it sees the humor. I think, I think, I think I
can't speak for the the whole team.
I mean, I think there is a lot of anger there, but, but anger
(16:57):
isn't funny. And, and, and I think, you know,
I mean, I, there are some thingsthat we've done.
I mean, and Bill Dare, the creator and producer who we
sadly lost earlier this year, really, really tragically, you
know, sometimes things, you know, we do a thing and it
(17:18):
wouldn't get that many laughs, but he'd say it hasn't got that
many laughs. But this is, you know, it's
important that we do this. This is satirical and and I
think, you know, part of the point of satire.
You know, people talk very kind of pompously about satire and
and I do myself, in fact. But and I think, you know, it is
(17:39):
very important to prick pomposity and to I mean, I I
there's this brilliant quote by Jessica Mitford, which is I
think I I'm probably slightly paraphrasing, but it's like we
may not be able to change the world, but at least we can
embarrass the guilty. And and I sort of think, yeah,
(17:59):
have some of that, you know, andto embarrass it to to point
things up in a different way that that people might not have
thought about them. I mean, obviously some of it is
caricature and it's it's overblown and and you know,
there's a danger of, well, you know, if you're making, you
know, Donald Trump or Boris Johnson into this, you know,
(18:19):
buffoon of a character, Are you kind of making?
Are you kind of inuring the public to their to the sort of
malevolence of their, you know, their intention or, or their,
their effect? And you know that there may be
something in that. But I think there's also a very,
(18:41):
very important aspect to maybe satire or maybe what we do,
depending on how how much you think the two crossover, which
is that you've got to have a laugh to be able to laugh.
Sort of gives it gives people back the power in a way, gives
you, gives you something where you can go.
Yeah, yeah, you know, I am goingto I am going to have a laugh at
(19:05):
you. And you know, I mean, Thora
heard used to say the gift of laughter is a wonderful thing.
You know, God bless laws and andactually, you know, we I mean,
it has been so moving going around the country and these
huge audiences just loving it. There is a huge and it is bigger
(19:26):
than sort of the four of us doing the show.
It's like it's, it's, it's the, it's the thing, it's dead
ringers. It's this thing that they love.
And there has been with them, you know, and often kids have
been brought up on it, you know,and they just love it and they
love being allowed to laugh. And as you say, they love that
thing. And my God, how did they get
(19:47):
away with that? And maybe we get away with it a
bit more because it's on the radio, not the telly, because
people say, oh, there's not enough satire on the telly.
And I mean, we did do dead ringers on the telly for seven
years and. What, Why?
Why did that stop? Well, quite a lot of comedy
series sort of have their time. They don't last.
(20:09):
I mean, you know, things like sort of goodness gracious me or,
you know, I mean, all sorts of comedy series.
Don't I mean, have I got news for you?
Is is, you know, an exception tothat rule?
But if it lasts 25 years on the radio, then why?
Why is TV different? Because it's so much more
expensive, so much more expensive, so much more labour
(20:30):
intensive. I mean, when we were doing Dead
Ringers, we'd have a, we'd have a four, three or four week
location filming period where we'd film all the sketches that
were like programme parodies that weren't topical.
And then we'd have a week in thestudio rehearsing, writing and
(20:51):
rehearsing the topical stuff that was so that was sketches
about the things that had happened that week.
And then on the night, you know,either, you know, so I'd be
doing like Fiona Bruce and the headlines, you know, the, the,
the news lines would come in andI would sort of be reading them
on the auto queue like as they were coming in kind of thing.
And so they were like last thingon AI, can't remember what night
(21:13):
it was now, but you know then sothe next day, you know it'd be
edited and then the following day.
Around, yeah. Yeah, yeah.
And you know, I would spend longer in makeup than I did on
the set because, you know, a lotof the makeups, the look of that
trying to look like people is, is really hard.
And then also you get people saying, well, you don't look
very much like them. And.
And so they're sort of distracted by the fact that, but
(21:35):
you're not quite, you know, exactly looking like them.
But this has been a sort of a trend in TV generally, isn't it,
with TV comedy And that, that that does seem to be less of it.
That is very successful. And people always, you know, the
commissioners always say how expensive it is, especially if
it, if it doesn't work. Because the sketch is like, you
know, a minute long, 2 minutes long.
You know, you've got a set, you've got the costumes, you've
(21:57):
got the makeup, you've got setups and lighting and you
know, it's, yeah, it's really labour intensive and.
Various so so where do you thinkthe sort of the the well, the
present and future of comedy? Is it, is it on stage, hugely
on, or is it on social media or a bit of both?
Well, I guess it is on social media.
I mean, I, you know, I sort of can't be doing with that, you
(22:18):
know, but I mean, I know that lots of, lots of comedians have,
you know, made their made a hugesuccess because of TikTok and
Instagram and stuff. And, you know, that's brilliant
and good for them. But but I think it's hugely in
live work. I mean, the lots of production
(22:40):
companies and agencies are saying to their clients, you've
got to get get out there becausethat's, you know, people are
hungry for it. I mean, like, you know, dead
ringers have been on tour, You know, two, we were on doing a
show in New York. Two days later, Rory Bremner
arrives and does his show in NewYork.
I mean, there's this huge appetite, the fast show, we're
on tour. Everyone's touring, aren't they?
(23:01):
I mean, not just comedians. It's like this.
There's a big live theatre thingwith with politicians and
serious figures. Yes.
And yes, exactly. People sort of say, you know, an
evening with where there are. People who are obviously
spending money and going to see see things.
Yes, I think and I think that maybe, you know, we have been
sort of locked into our screens too much.
And so the live experience is, you know, it's it's a fantastic
(23:25):
thing. It's because it's, you know,
there's nothing like it. It's, it's a really exciting
thing. And also like on our show,
we're, we're doing it like a radio recording.
So we're standing in front of microphones with a script like
we would be in the Broadcasting House theatre, you know.
But of course we're, you know, we're, we're corpsing, we're
screwing up. We're doing improvised bits and
then we do bits about how we do impressions and which are our
(23:48):
favorite ones. And, you know, so there's all
sorts of bits that are kind of added on to the, to the, you
know, that that are only happening when you're in that
theatre right at that moment. And that's.
Because you, you've got a sort of, you've got an insight into
the into the new generation as well because your son Alfie
Brown, of course, is a very successful comedian.
I mean, do you, do you see a difference in in the in the way
(24:11):
the new generation are performing and mapping out their
careers or has it essentially stayed the same?
Oh, God, no. It hasn't stayed the same at
all. I mean, for younger comedians,
the pressure is on to, you know,to to be on social media.
You know, you seem to sort of like, see people, you know, they
(24:32):
come into your Instagram feed and then all of a sudden, you
know, they're, they're playing huge theatres.
How did that happen? And it happens because you've
seen it on your phone. And so have, you know, thousands
of other people. So social media is the marketing
tool but but live shows is wherethe money is.
Well, I, yeah, I, I mean, I don't, I'm, you know, there
(24:53):
obviously is money in telly if you, if you can get on and, you
know, people on have I got news for you?
Or I mean, there are, you know, people are making money doing
comedy programs, but maybe there's just fewer of them.
I mean, and you know it, yes. And also I, I think people do
(25:16):
make money on social media, don't they?
Because they get sponsored and all that.
I mean, my other I've got a younger son who's also doing
comedy bits on TikTok and you know, and he does a podcast and
it's all about getting sponsors and all that.
And are you doing what you always wanted to do?
I mean that, you know, how did you become or why did you become
(25:36):
an impressionist? Well, I.
Did you grow up as a girl thinking No, that's what I want
to do? You know, I wanted to be, I
wanted to be Glenda Jackson. You know, I wanted Glenda
Jackson came from this town on the Wirral where I come from,
Hoy Lake. And you know, Glenda was out
there being, you know, ElizabethR and being at the RSC and on
in, you know, Oscar winning movies and all that.
(25:59):
And I thought, Oh my God, you know, if Glenda can do it, I
can. And so I so I wanted to be an
actress. I wanted to, I mean, and I am, I
am an actress and I I, you know,I, you know, I, I've done all
that. I haven't don't do so much
anymore, but I have, you know, and I, you know, I do kind of,
(26:20):
you know, if you're going to sort of have regrets, I kind of
think, well, I wish I had done more of that.
I wish I hadn't got so sort of not sidetracked by the comedy,
but I'm just naturally a funny person and I'm naturally a piss
taker, I suppose. And that's part of what being an
impressionist is. It's having that kind of a bit
of a sense of mischief and a sense of being slightly a
(26:40):
watcher. And, and whilst I enjoy that, I
also love, you know, the opportunity to, you know, to, to
be in a Shakespeare play or to do a new play by David Edgar or
something. To immerse yourself in a world
you know, and the headspace of another character.
(27:03):
And to, you know, to to work with poetry and beautiful
language, you know, that nourishes a different part of
you and I and I. Because you did do Shakespeare,
didn't you? Yeah, yeah, the RSC.
Yes, yes, well done. But I suppose, I suppose the, I
suppose that you know, it's, it's important to know what
you're really good at as. Well, well, that's the thing.
(27:23):
I mean, there are so many brilliant actors, but there
aren't many people that can do what I do.
And, and I suppose what I do it,you know, the impressions thing
is like my USP and I have now got a reputation of, you know,
being pretty good at it. And there are some, you know,
things people say, well, can youdo this?
(27:44):
And I go, well, I'm not sure howwell I can do it, but I'm pretty
sure that there's nobody that could do it, that people might
be able to do it as well. But I'm, I'm pretty sure that
nobody could do it better. I mean, not with every voice
because we've all got different tambours and different ranges
and everything. But but yeah, I, I feel pretty
confident about impressions. I don't get nervous about it
(28:06):
anymore. I know I'm pretty good at it and
do. People come to you and say, can
you do such and such a person or, or or do you decide who
you're going to do? And then the writers work around
that. Well, yeah, a bit of both.
I mean, like, because a lot of the time, like, you know, with
Fiona Bruce, when we were doing the telly show, I think, and I
said, Oh my God, have you seen Fiona Bruce reading the news?
(28:28):
You know, and and so we did thiswhole, you know, series of
sketches on Fiona Bruce kind of,you know, I mean, it was, and I
sort of had, I sort of, I didn'twant her to be a sort of a sex
object. I wanted her to be like, you
know. Yeah, she loves it.
You know, and do you know, come at me if you dare kind of thing,
you know and. But your, your news, your news
(28:50):
impressions are, are, are surprising in a way because I
suppose my generation, you know,these are all my generation of
people. And I, I think of our generation
as very, you know, sort of homogenised.
We're kind of we're not people who kind of have absurd
characteristics or mannerisms onthe whole.
But you found for things that are distinctive.
(29:12):
Yeah, curious about. Various different.
People. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah,
yeah. I mean, I think, I think, I
think Rory, I mean, I because I'm doing these some shows with
him at the moment. And he, he did want to be an
impressionist. He loved the voices and he loved
doing the sports commentators and kind of that was what he
wanted to do. He wanted, he wanted to be a
(29:36):
funny voice person. And Lewis McLeod is the same.
And John, I think Jon Coulshall got into it through sort of
being a DJ and doing comedy bitsas, as a DJ.
But, but no, I, I wanted to be an actor.
And then, you know it, when I was at Cambridge, you know, I, I
auditioned for plays in my firstterm and, you know, Jacobean
comedies and Shakespeare and Restoration and all this, and
(29:58):
then, you know, got into the Footlights and, and then that
sort of took over. How?
I mean, you know, you, you were the first female president of
the Footlights. How difficult was it to be that?
How big a deal was it at the time, really?
Difficult. I mean, it was like, because I
thought if I screwed this up, we're not going to get never
going to get another one. Because I, because I had this
(30:20):
sort of series of so I was the first female president of
Footlights. Then I was the first woman to
direct the Footlights review theyear after because I directed
Stephen Fry and Hugh Laurie and Emma Thompson.
I suppose we should explain whata big deal Footlights was as
well in those days, because I mean it, it had spawned.
Well, yes, you know, so, yeah, Monty Python and you know, that
(30:41):
was the week that was and lots of the when they were all from
Oxford and Cambridge. I mean, you know, but yes,
Footlights was a was a huge dealand and continues to be.
I mean, you know, you know, NickMuhammad is was in Footlights.
You know, it's, it's it carries on and you know, different years
have more successful than othersand all that.
(31:03):
But I mean, the year that I was directing it, you know, Stephen
Fry, Hugh Laurie, Emma Thompson,Tony Slattery, I mean, you know,
amazing, absolutely amazing and quite terrifying.
So the first woman to direct it.So Oh my God, you know.
And then as a result of that, I got offered a job at the BBC as
a radio comedy producer, which was a very well trodden path for
(31:24):
all sorts of blokes from Cambridge who'd been in
Footlights or director. And and again, I was the first
woman and, you know, apparently the head of department who was,
it was like the Golf Club, the BBC at that point, you know.
And so now look here, you know, that head of department who was
called Bobby Jay and he was sortof, you know, you could always
imagine him in the RAF, you know, in the Officers Mess.
(31:47):
Look here, you know, we're goingto have, you know, a female
producer. So we might have to be a tread a
bit carefully at certain times of the month, you know, and we
sort of like all these guys. What?
But yes, it was a lot of pressure, a lot of pressure.
And and actually I kind of decide I stayed about 18 months,
(32:09):
I think, as a producer. And I because I kind of knew
that I really wanted to perform.I mean, I really wanted to act
because when I left Cambridge, Ileft at the same time as Sandy
Toxvig and Sandy and I had been in the Footlights together and,
and she got a job in Rep at sortof Exeter Theatre, Northcote
(32:30):
Theatre in Exeter. And I was so jealous because
that was what I really wanted todo.
And of course, they were quite not that many Rep theatres with
a Rep company where you do different plays and, you know,
it was such a good training. And now I I mean that you can
count, I think on the fingers ofone hand, if even if that the
amount of, you know, Rep companies that there are.
(32:52):
I mean, you know, we're talking about how live theatre, but, but
actual theatre, actual, you know, theatres that, you know,
sustain A repertory company and put on production after
production, you know, on a monthby month basis, you know, hardly
exists at all. And, and do you think the fact
that we are now in an age where people are older and staying in
(33:14):
their jobs and high profile for longer means that you'll be able
to carry on doing this for as long as you want?
Or do you think, oh, maybe I need to pivot back to drama?
I would pivot back to drama if anybody gave me a bloody job.
But you know, it's like, I think, I think particularly when
you know, I mean, you do get pigeon holed.
And I think particularly when you're an impressionist people
(33:35):
because of being a kind of a mischief, you know, a kind of
Lord of misrule kind of, you know, jester, you know, you're a
watcher, you're an observer. So I think people are a bit sort
of circumspect sometimes about about whether you can actually
act And but like I say, I'm not,you know, it's, it's a slight
sort of regret. But, you know, I mean, when I
(33:57):
think about what dead ringers has brought to my life, you
know, in terms of, you know, thelongevity of it and also the the
other opportunities it's given me, you know, I've, I've hosted
documentaries, I've been on, youknow, was on strictly obvious,
you know, all sorts of things that happened because of it that
would never have happened without it.
(34:19):
And just the. I imagine you laugh more than
most people. Don't.
Yeah, which? Is quite a bonus.
Yeah. Oh God.
I mean, laughter is so important.
I mean, like I say, you know, satire is important, but
laughter is, is is so important.I mean, did you think of it as
therapy? I sort of use comedy like that
sometimes. Me and my wife actually will
(34:40):
will sometimes say, you know what, we need to go and see some
comedy because to kind of cheer ourselves.
Up. Yeah, yeah.
I mean, but do you think, I mean, do you think topical
comedy does cheer you up in thatsense?
I mean, do you think, do you think?
I mean, that's what I'm saying. Do you agree with that?
Yeah, yeah, totally. Because especially, you know,
even if the news is very dark, that's the point of top.
(35:02):
I think it's just the physical reaction of laughter that makes
you feel better. It doesn't matter what you're
laughing at, if you laugh, you will feel better.
And that's why I thought we sometimes go, you know what, we
just need to book. Some live comedy and go see it
we. Will feel better in a couple of
weeks time. So I think.
I mean, I presume you laugh while you're doing it.
(35:24):
Yes, I mean. You know, does doing comedy make
you happy as a person rather than the old cliche of the
miserable, the miserable comic? Well, I suppose I can only, I
mean, we, we all have said the four of us doing the live show,
doing this tour has been the most fun and we and we still
(35:50):
enjoy each other's performances and we can still laugh at and
with each other. And obviously there are bits
where you think, oh, here we go,we're going to do this bit
again. But but there are other bits
where, you know, it's still, youknow, and, and to hear how much
the audience is loving it. I mean, like I said, we've
played these huge theatres. We're doing, we're doing a week
(36:11):
more of gigs in January, culminating at the London
Palladium. We're doing another tranche of
gigs in March, you know, all sorts of theatres all over the
country. And the demand for it seems to
just go on and on. It's extraordinary.
And I think, yeah, people want to laugh.
And they, and like I say, they do want to laugh.
You know what's going on in the world.
(36:32):
Well, let's have the carry on ofthe you carry on letting us.
Jan Ravens, thank you very much indeed for joining us.
Thank you. And that was ways to change the
world. You can watch all of these
interviews on the Channel 4 NewsYouTube channel.
Until next time, bye bye.
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