August 8, 2025 • 35 mins
Sami Tamimi is one of the brains behind the hugely successful and influential Ottolenghi restaurants, which he launched with his friend and long-time collaborator Yotam Ottolenghi.
The pair co-wrote the bestselling cookbook Jerusalem - and more recently, Sami has written Falastin and Boustany, a powerful celebration of Palestinian food and culture.
He says that in Palestine, “food is political”, and never more so than right now.
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(00:00):
Bombing masculine mass starvation.
As a Palestinian, I I just feel totally helpless.
It's impossible to have a conversation about Palestinian
food, yeah, without talking about starvation.
It's really sad because Gaza, it's a very fertile land and and
now it's a dead land. What's what is Palestine to you
(00:20):
in your head? My country home, my family where
I grew up. But when we were kids my my mom
and dad took us to the hills. We just go out and flourish for
different herbs and berries. Where will these things come
from in a world in which the settlers have taken over the
hills in the West Bank and Gaza has been destroyed?
This is what we need to save. Hello and welcome to Ways to
(00:46):
Change the World. I'm Krishnan Guru Murthy and
this is the podcast in which we talk to extraordinary people
about the big ideas in their lives and the events that have
helped shape them. My guest today is the renowned
Palestinian chef, author and restaurateur Sammy Tamimi is one
of the brains behind the hugely successful and influential
Ottolenghi restaurants, which helaunched with his friend and
(01:07):
long time collaborator Yotam Ottolenghi, who's also been a
guest on this podcast. The pair Co wrote the best
selling cookbook Jerusalem, and more recently Sammy has written
Philistine and Bustani, a powerful celebration of
Palestinian food and culture. He says that in Palestine food
is political and never more so than right now.
(01:29):
Sammy, welcome. Thank you very much.
How do you want to change the world?
Sack all the politicians. Perhaps we can also put women in
charge. I think, you know, man proved it
wrong so far. And especially because of what's
happening now back home in Palestine and Gaza, which is a
big game, bigger than us as humans.
(01:52):
And it's a political kind of game that been played for so
long now. And people are suffering, people
are dying, mass mass bombing, masculine mass starvation, which
is really kind of bad for humanity, for humanity.
Now, you grew up in Jerusalem, Yeah.
(02:12):
And then came to this country toto work, you know, Do you?
Where? Where's your family?
All my siblings are in in Jerusalem.
They all live around Jerusalem. They're like in a way because
they all live in Jerusalem, which is slightly safer and
there are a lot of them. So they look after each other.
But the situation there is stillreally, really bad any and they
(02:35):
can just take off and I fear forthem as well.
I mean, you know, it's impossible to have a
conversation about Palestinian food, Yeah, without talking
about starvation, correct. Famine has been declared by the
UN body, the IPC in in Gaza. So how does that feel for you as
(02:57):
somebody whose life is food? Quite bad.
I mean, I put I kind of took a stand on social media.
I stopped posting food because although, you know, my, my book
Bustani just came out and I findit quite difficult navigating
through. I promote food and Palestinian
and Palestinian culture. And this is something that I've
(03:21):
been doing now for 20 years. And to be able to talk about
food without not acknowledging what's happening in Gaza, it's
too kind of difficult emotionally.
But also I I feel for all these people that been trapped there
and they did nothing to deserve this.
(03:44):
Nobody actually deserved to, to be treated like that.
So to be food, to be taken to weaponize and to control people
by starvation. But at the same time, I, my, my
role, I see it also clear. I talk about the Palestinian
culture and food and I have a role there where I promote it
(04:06):
and I want to talk about it. And I want to show that it's not
just black and white. There's quite a lot of Gray
areas. And we, we are a nation.
We are come, you know, coming from do we have our tradition
and food and and celebration andsadness and we are human.
And this is what I'm trying to say here with my writing.
So what? What is your emotional link to
(04:28):
the starvation there right now? I mean as a Palestinian.
As as a Palestinian, I, I, I'm, I just feel totally helpless and
I feel anger as well. I try to help as much by
promoting, donating, spreading the world, but at the same time,
(04:49):
what can we do as human? It's just, you know, we can just
do it as much as we can to to help the situation.
I mean, you, you said Palestinian, all Palestinian
food is political before all of this, Yeah.
What did you mean by that? I mean, everything that you
touch in this region between politics and there's always
somebody that kind of throw, especially I find it on social
(05:10):
media or when I do talks, peoplethrow all sorts of messages or
questions or challenges in frontof you.
And you just kind of feel like you think, OK, I'm just going to
challenge. I'm going to take the challenge
to kind of talk about that. And you talk about, the more you
talk about it, the more it's so clear that this person through
this discussion at you, just because they feel like the right
(05:31):
to, to challenge you, but that deep down in it, they, they know
nothing about the situation or where it started.
They just see this kind of shallow what happened to 2 1/2
years ago in, in, in Israel and Palestine did start there.
It started way back 7580 years ago.
But we don't see that because all they see from people.
(05:53):
I find it really, really kind offrustrating with people because
you can say this table is red and tell you know, it's, it's
green and so on. And there's no way you can
convince them. But at the same time, you need
to have a stand and just kind ofsay this is the right.
I have my memories. My family's still there.
They've been there for hundreds of years.
And you can't take that from me.I can't let you, because the
(06:15):
argument here is whether Palestine is Palestine and
whether it's there or been there, or do they have a
culture, do they have food and all that.
People say that there's no such thing as Palestinian.
Anything. Constantly.
Constantly. All the time.
Because it was never a country. Yeah, exactly.
Because it wasn't established, it doesn't mean that wasn't a
country. It was Palestinian were ahead of
(06:36):
their time, they were ahead of time, many aspects of life.
So, so what's what is Palestine to you in your head?
My country home, my family whereI grew up, my memories, the food
I grew up and borrowed from, thefood that I cooked nowadays and
celebrate in a way that I want to share it with other people,
but also I want to share it withPalestinians that never been to
(06:58):
Palestine. They don't know about these
cultural aspects and the memories and the foods and the
culture. But do you think of it as a
place or do you think of it as a?
Culture. It's home.
It is a place. And what?
What is that place? It's.
And how and how does it relate to Israel in your in your mind?
(07:20):
Palestine is for me, it's the connection to the land, to the
farming, to entrepreneur and to the celebration.
They are lovely people. Jerusalem, Nablus, Jericho,
Bethlehem, all these bases, all these cities are big part of the
country which called Palestine. Regardless to what Israel is
(07:43):
nowadays, Palestine was there before.
And so Palestine exists, you know, in your heart, as a place
that is legally now part of Israel.
Is that what you're saying? Well, not part of it.
I mean, I, I grew up, I left 25 years ago.
I grew up in the 70s there and the, the situation was
(08:06):
different. But also at the same time,
Israel and Palestine were to separate places.
And nowadays Israel is trying totake over what was left from
Palestine, started with Gaza, and now they're taking also the
West Bank. And what, what do you think the
aim is? You know Israel is talking about
(08:29):
total victory. What are you going to do with
over 5 million Palestinians? I mean, you can just go and kill
all of them or just kick them out of the countries and they
belong there. They've been there for ages,
generations. They have their culture, they
have their land, they have theirhouses, kids and nephews and,
(08:55):
and I don't know what situation,no, but what's the solution for
that? But it need to be sought from I
think from the outside, because the inside is not going to be
found in the solution for. It do you?
Do you do you feel they are trying to deliver the Trump plan
to get rid of the Palestinians from that land by by saying
(09:18):
we'll go and live in Egypt or Iraq or Jordan?
Or I mean, that's, that's ridiculous.
And I think after Trump, somebody else will come.
But hopefully whoever comes after Trump will try to find a
different solution for the because you can't the, the, the,
the whole region is just been livid and killing each other for
(09:40):
so long. And it needs to stop.
Palestinian need to have their rights and they need to have the
right to come to return home andstate.
Do you Do you go back? I do a lot.
I haven't been since September 7, but I I I used to go a few
times a year. And how did you feel about going
back? Not great, I am a non person
(10:03):
there but I treat. I've been treated so far.
What do you mean a non person? Israelis Palestinian know know
me as a you know, this kind of non chef that write and talk and
have restaurants and I as an Arab Palestinian I get treated
like a second class citizen. What happens?
(10:26):
Just it's so segregated and non non Jewish treated differently
and for an Arab Palestinian you treat it even worse than just a
non Jewish. Can you give me some examples?
Because I think people really don't understand what you mean
by that. Any any day you to be with
(10:47):
spoken down the simple just kindof down the street and somebody
will give me an identity card orpassport and they give you a
hard time and no reason for it apart from the fact that you're
Palestinian. Or when you go to the airport,
live with the country, you'll bequeuing in a different queue and
be like waiting for hours and they'll search your stuff and
(11:12):
really unpleasantly as well. So what?
What passports have you got? I have British luckily, but also
I have an Israeli 1. So you are an Israeli?
Only on paper. On paper, yeah.
Yeah, I don't consider myself Israeli.
Just just unpack that. What do you mean by that?
I am Palestinians. And so why haven't you gone back
(11:36):
since October 7th? Because I'm quite outspoken on
social media and knowing a lot of Palestinians, mainly who
spoke up, got prison or got hassled and I know the minute I
(11:57):
land back home, I'll be probablytaken to to prison.
You're afraid of that? Madam Yeah, As long as this
government is going on, I am notgoing to go back.
Simple then. Then let's.
(12:18):
Talk about your your partnershipa little bit.
You're you're still a partner, asylum partner now in Ossalengi
now. But what?
Why you, You in a way, you were always the silent partner.
Yeah. Because Yosemite was the front
man. So what?
Why was he the front man? Because he chose it.
(12:40):
I didn't want to be the the he, you know, in business like that,
one of us have to kind of run the back and one the front.
He was running the front and he wanted to be this kind of the,
the front of the, the business and I was happy to cook in and
manage in and run in the business and it was fine.
(13:01):
But I and you know, I don't regret anything, but if I have
to take it back a few years back, I would just change it
slightly. But I'm pretty much happy to be
the silent one. Right.
And when you say you change it, I mean.
I would just kind of change thatwith the, the thing that we used
to say in the past as a Palestinian, an Israeli, 2
(13:25):
friends, two partners, business partners, I mean, and I would
just give it, give the Palestinian side a little bit
more kind of a. Little bit more profile, Yeah.
I mean, was there any sense in which you felt you were going to
be more successful with an Israeli front man than a
Palestinian? No, I mean, we're the, the whole
(13:45):
thing started with us being friend.
We worked together before we started the whole Luttalengi and
we opened it on a kind of a friendship kind of relationship
and we'd honestly, we didn't even think about it that far or
how successful it is. We just wanted to do some nice
food to sell people and it just took off so quickly.
(14:08):
At the time. Also we never really talked
about politics. We're also our food was not
never like Israeli or Palestinian.
It was original kind of Middle East and Mediterranean in a way.
It's not even kind of challenging it.
We didn't we, it was clear that we don't, we don't want to do
(14:29):
Palestinian food because it it's, it's wrong.
But at the same time, after Jerusalem came out, the
cookbook, people started labeling us.
It's like this is an Israeli place.
This is a Palestinian place. The book is an Israeli.
No, it's Palestinian. And this is really bothered me.
And this is I think when all thetrouble started to kind of come
(14:51):
out like little crack of just kind of as you know, we still
nothing wrong happened between us, but I was not comfortable
with it being labeled as Israeli, as Israeli, I am half
of the business. Yes, I mean, he, he, your time,
you know, we talked very openly about how there was quite a lot
(15:12):
of cultural appropriation of food, you know, and that Israeli
food is Palestinian food. Would you feel you should have
been more clear about that? See, I mean, I need to clear
that because our food in the restaurants was never defined.
We we kind of it's it was a multicultural thing.
(15:33):
We never defined it as a Palestinian or when we didn't
serve any Palestinian food. With the autumn's writing, he
did take a lot of Palestinian dishes and kind of talked about
them and cooked them and published them as well.
And this is where the whole kindof sag with the conflict start,
whether he appropriate the food or not.
(15:54):
And so how, how did you see thatconflict?
I I see it as other people. I didn't see it.
It wasn't a conflict for you. It wasn't for me, but I was part
of the business. But I can't have control of what
he can write and publish. And so was that difficult for
you? As a friend then I didn't think
(16:17):
it it's a problem, but now I seeit, you know, it's so clear.
Explain. I think when you when you cook
pasta, for example, I cook pastaa lot and I never say this is
mine. But also I, I don't have complex
with, with Italy where when you touch Israel, Palestine, it's,
(16:40):
it's immediately brings this political kind of problem
between and cooking the food. Although he did acknowledge
that, you know, it's Palestinian.
As an Israeli, I would probably stay away from it.
(17:01):
You mean the way you you steer away from the conversation?
Whatever you do, because I, likeI said earlier, whatever you
touch in this region turns into politics.
He should have known better. He thought, I don't know.
I'm, I don't talk for him. But he probably thought it's
good to promote Palestinian food.
But actually he was appropriate in a way, kind of.
(17:22):
And did you, did you argue aboutit?
No, it's not for me to argue. It's his.
It's, you know, it's his right and it's he choose what he wants
to do. He is a successful food writer
with or without the business. How did you become friends?
We just worked together and we did realise that we I speak
Hebrew, he speak Arabic. 2 gay guys new in London.
(17:46):
We just bonded because we had a lot in in common.
Also we didn't really have many friends.
So it's kind of, you know, we became friends.
Can I ask you about being gay inin Jerusalem as well?
I mean, how, how easy was that as a Palestinian?
Not easy for me because I couldn't talk to my family about
(18:08):
it. I had to kind of take myself out
of because I lived in a very conservative and protective kind
of environment and the family were not kind of, they know now,
but we never talk about it, which is fine.
OK, well let's talk about the food itself then.
Yeah. What?
(18:29):
What is it you you want to communicate about Palestinian
food and what it is? I mean, food for me, it's a
passion, but also food for me, atool.
I can, for me talking to people and connecting with people
through food and foods, something that we all connect
on, whether we like to eat or cook or share or eat together.
(18:54):
And you can say quite a lot through food and recipes and
cookbooks. And people not necessarily will
sit and read a book about the history of Palestine through a
cookbook. You can say quite a lot and
people are willing to sit and, and read about it.
But also, I feel like there's a whole shift in cookbooks right
(19:14):
in and people that buy these cookbooks wants to zoom more on
where exactly this food come. What's the history?
What's the what's the kind of culture behind it?
Who made it? Why is it called this way when
it it made? And this is wonderful for me as
a Palestinian writer because I can talk about a lot of subjects
(19:36):
that related to Palestinian history, culture, and the food
as well. I.
Mean there are there are two things you you made clear right
at the beginning of the book, you know, which is that so much
of Palestine was about agriculture.
Yeah, but also a lot of the the things that make Palestinian
food tasty. The spice is from foraging.
(19:57):
Just explain this. I mean, we are Palestinian,
naturally are. Farmers, I mean, we are very, we
have a really strong deep connection to the land and
farming and the season, but alsoto the surrounding and foraging
and where this connection is really, really deep in our
culture as well. And we, I remember when we were
(20:20):
kids, my, my mum and dad took usto the hills or parts of the
Palestine where we just go out and forage for different herbs
and berries and greens. And this is something that it
will disappear eventually because Palestinian land have
been taken and shrinked and people don't have access to the
(20:40):
land though, but also to the hills, especially in the West
Bank, because it's so such a closed kind of area that you
don't have this. The culture will stop at some
point because people are not going to be able to, to do the,
the, the, the seasonal thing, which, you know, going out like
I did with my parents and pick all these wonderful things to,
(21:02):
to cook and eat, but also preserving this culture.
It will, I mean, next generations will, will lose that
as well. And it's really important for me
to write about it because I haveall these wonderful memories
that kind of related to all of what I mentioned.
And I worry that one day they'regoing to get lost.
(21:24):
So documented them in a cookbook, which I I kind of, I
think it's wonderful when kids by seeing kids want to one day
kind of read about it. So what's the flavours that you
go? Picking.
So we have from dandelion to jute Melo to different kind of
(21:45):
chicory that we used to. There's quite a lot of berries
and mulberries and wild figs, sage and zata, which is a same
family as oregano and different medicinal herds as well.
So where? Where will these things come
from in a world in which the settlers have taken over the
(22:08):
hills in the West Bank and Gaza has been destroyed?
This is what we need to save. This is what need to be fixed.
Because if if we just keep killing it, it is going to die
and we just need to save it. Well, when you've seen the
images in the last few days of Gaza, you know, absolutely
(22:33):
destroyed what has been your. It's really sad because Gaza
was, I'm kind of preparing for an article now and I was reading
about the whole cuisine of Palestinian, but also Gazan.
And Gazan, they were displaced. They were not all originally
from there. They are also the original
(22:54):
Gazan, but it's a very fertile land and it was always and
produced the most wonderful strawberries and chilies and
roses and, and, and now it's a dead land.
It will take generation to bringit back to, to be able to grow
anything there. And it's what we human being do
(23:18):
to our kind of world. How important is it to bring it
back? I mean, I don't know.
It's, I don't know what kind of bombs they use, but, and I'm not
an expert in these things, but you know, it's a dead land at
the moment. Yeah, but I mean, what What I
(23:39):
mean is like, do you in order topreserve that culture, what do
you do? I mean, do you, do you, do you
recreate it on on land that is currently dead and poisoned or,
or what? I.
Mean, I mean not, not all the land in, in in Gaza is dead and
they still can, but digging all the rubble and excavating all
(24:02):
the layers of damage it will take, it will take a few years.
But for me as a food writer and a ship, I, I write about it,
talk about it, I, you know, cookit.
I let people cook it as well andexperience it.
And there's more than just, you know, people getting bombed and
being starved and being, being killed.
(24:22):
They have stories. They are humans.
They have, you know, they cherish a lot of things that I
write about, from food to culture to forage into the
connection to the land. I wanted to ask you about being
a restaurateur as well. I mean, you were, you were
deeply involved in running the Ottolenghi restaurants and the
(24:43):
other restaurants in the in the group.
I mean, you know, running restaurants is famously
exhausting, difficult, emotionally draining.
Did you find it? All of those things.
Yeah. And This is why I stopped 5 five
years ago because I, the companyconstantly expanded and I, I
struggled. I struggled because I I thought
(25:06):
this is not what I wanted to do in five years time.
I want to I I achieved a lot. I have 3 cookbooks behind me and
I'm doing really well. But I wanted to find the corner
where I can just say I am also happy and running 6 kitchens and
(25:26):
70 staff was not my point of happiness.
And I, I stopped because I also went through an open heart
surgery like a couple of years before that and I needed to slow
down and I needed to also enjoy what I achieved.
And I couldn't do that for any residents.
So you just left? Just I said I did my bets.
(25:49):
It's now for whatever and like you know, whoever wants to take
over or the next generation. The company is still expanding
and I'm glad that I'm not part of it because I'm probably be
dead by now. You went to Italy I.
Have a place in Italy, Yeah. To your to your house there and
(26:09):
and you, you said you had a bit of a meltdown.
Yeah. What did you mean by that?
Because having been part of a wonderful 20 years and I really
had a lot of fun. It's hard because it's just like
leaving your your family. It's and you doubt yourself
whether you are doing the right things or not.
(26:31):
And but I knew deep inside that I needed to to leave.
But also at the same time, you think I don't want to respond to
all these people that I was, youknow, part of for so many years.
And this is the meltdown. Also doing the step, but also
feeling comfortable that I can actually stand on my feet and
continue in a different direction and I'm still
(26:53):
standing. And from that came this book.
It started in just before COVID and COVID was the kind of push
to go to Italy. And when you're in situation
like COVID, you feel very homesick and you want the
connection with the family and with the with the memories, with
the food as well. And I was like it because it was
(27:15):
spring and the the climate in Nombria is very similar to
Jerusalem. So I just went out for long
walks and picked different things.
I started cooking, working at home, and this really brought me
a lot of comfort and also brought me really closer to
where I grew up, which is Jerusalem and the family
constantly. My sister.
Do you remember this herb? How do you do it?
And this is kind of a connectionthat I missed as well.
(27:37):
But I also realized that I always had it and I started just
writing notes. And only when we got back to
London that I started thinking there's so many memories and so,
so much knowledge that if I don't write it down, it will get
lost. And so I started talking to
(27:58):
friends about the idea of Bastani and my, my ex editor
called me. It's like, whatever you're
working on, I'm going to publish.
And this just gave me the whole push to to do.
It and, and how important was itto you to say this is
Palestinian food? And, and you know, because so
much of the food that you know, you're, you're writing about and
that you make, you know, you canfind something either the same
(28:19):
or very similar in Lebanon, Syria, you know, Israel, a lot
of the countries around that region.
So what is it that makes it distinctly Palestinian?
The fact that I grew up in Palestine and had it that and
cooked it and also because yes, there is quite a lot of shared
(28:40):
food and dishes, but also like anything in in the Middle East,
but also in Palestine as well, each household does it something
different. Palestinian food tend to be
quite a lot more earthy and robust and well balanced with
the flavour. But also as a, you know, it
could really connect you to preserving the food to the land,
(29:03):
to the farming, to what grows around.
And you know, foraging was also part of the the cuisine, and
this still is. Who taught you to cook?
I taught myself I'm a self-taught Christian.
I I wasn't encouraged to be cooked at all.
My the opposite actually, when I, I was so curious about it the
(29:26):
whole time and it's pretty much a woman kind of space and I was
always just kind of kicked out and just go and play with your
friends. And so, yeah, it was kind of, I
grew up in a total obsessed kindof household and this something
(29:50):
that stayed with you and I, I, Ifeel like I inherited, but also,
you know, I skilled it. I took it and kind of worked on
it and something that I should be also proud of.
Why? Why is it then that the, you
know, a lot of the sort of better known restaurants,
(30:13):
whether they're Palestinian or Syrian in, in London
particularly, are created by men?
Because it's physically hard to to stand on your feet for so
long. And it's, it is changing now.
But it's not just the Middle Eastern and the Palestinian.
And that's every, every restaurant because it's a
(30:36):
demanding physical job that sometime you have to stand 16
hours on your feet. And men are, you know, slightly
stronger than women. That's a controversial thing to
say. I know, but I come from this
(30:56):
industry and I know, I mean, it is changing and it's really good
to see so many women now in the industry.
But you know, for many years it was only a male thing.
Yes. I mean, you don't think that
it's just sort of actually just a sex?
No, no, no, rather than no, no. So it's just, you know, because
it was pretty much just her own male kind of big egg goes and
(31:20):
it's changing. It's been changing.
I have a, a kind of a hand to change in that as well because
I, I, we're dolenghi. We welcomed everybody, whether
female or male. Well then just let me just come
back to the whole question. If I mean you, you said you've
been very vocal on social media since October, the 7th in
particular. Has that, has that been
(31:44):
problematic for you in terms of I mean?
It bothered, it bothered me, I mean, from visit that I used to
go home and things are changing to the worst and it really
bothered me. And but I kept it in because I
thought, you know, it's not my place to talk about politics.
But then when October happened, I was in Jerusalem and I was
(32:04):
meant to spend some time with mysiblings.
It was not a safe place for a Palestinian.
You couldn't even walk up the street.
And they lived 10 minutes from where I was staying.
So I had to leave the country. And it, I really feared for
their safety. I, I feared for my safety as
well when I was there, but also for their safety.
And it really bothered me that people keep pointing out that
(32:29):
it's it's a Hamas and October 7th where it kicked in.
But actually it's been going on for the last 80 years.
And have you lost any friendships over this?
A lot. A lot of people, a lot of people
that I thought we are close and they are either and followed me
on social media, stopped talkingto me.
(32:49):
And it it's really hurtful. But at the same time I'm
thinking I'm not going to sit and cry about what happened
because if they want to be friends with me, they just need
to bite the bullet and just kindof deal with it.
And also at the same time, I think I don't want to be friends
with somebody that can't even face humanity and reality and
just say they don't need to do much.
(33:11):
Just text me, say, are you OK? Are your family OK?
And this is this is it, this is just showing you.
But also there's so much going on at the moment and I'm still
dealing with friends saying thisis not wrong.
This is the way it is, this is how it happened.
And I'm, I'm really fed up with that.
Close friends. Yeah, I lost.
(33:33):
I lost quite a lot of close friends.
I mean, I had a huge fight with an Israeli friend of mine.
She was my friend for 25 years and we we we had a fight and we
stopped talking. That's very sad.
It is very sad, but also you just feel like, I mean, the
situation, like all you, all youwant is somebody to tap your
(33:53):
shoulder and say that are you OK?
And when you don't have these people, you think they're not
really friends. What's your what's your hope
then now? I hope, I really hope that this
whole madness of this whole government in Israel stops.
And but, you know, if America and Trump is promoting it and,
(34:17):
you know, supporting it, then it's not going to stop.
And then people are dying. They are real general people to
dying. And it's really, really sad.
Sammy Tamimi, thank you very much.
Thank you very much. Thank you for joining us.
I hope you enjoyed that. If you did, then give us a
(34:37):
rating or a review and then other people will find the
podcast. You can watch all of these
interviews on the Channel 4 NewsYouTube channel.
Until next time, bye bye.
Bombing masculine mass starvation.
As a Palestinian, I I just feel totally helpless.
It's impossible to have a conversation about Palestinian
food, yeah, without talking about starvation.
It's really sad because Gaza, it's a very fertile land and and
now it's a dead land. What's what is Palestine to you
(00:20):
in your head? My country home, my family where
I grew up. But when we were kids my my mom
and dad took us to the hills. We just go out and flourish for
different herbs and berries. Where will these things come
from in a world in which the settlers have taken over the
hills in the West Bank and Gaza has been destroyed?
This is what we need to save. Hello and welcome to Ways to
(00:46):
Change the World. I'm Krishnan Guru Murthy and
this is the podcast in which we talk to extraordinary people
about the big ideas in their lives and the events that have
helped shape them. My guest today is the renowned
Palestinian chef, author and restaurateur Sammy Tamimi is one
of the brains behind the hugely successful and influential
Ottolenghi restaurants, which helaunched with his friend and
(01:07):
long time collaborator Yotam Ottolenghi, who's also been a
guest on this podcast. The pair Co wrote the best
selling cookbook Jerusalem, and more recently Sammy has written
Philistine and Bustani, a powerful celebration of
Palestinian food and culture. He says that in Palestine food
is political and never more so than right now.
(01:29):
Sammy, welcome. Thank you very much.
How do you want to change the world?
Sack all the politicians. Perhaps we can also put women in
charge. I think, you know, man proved it
wrong so far. And especially because of what's
happening now back home in Palestine and Gaza, which is a
big game, bigger than us as humans.
(01:52):
And it's a political kind of game that been played for so
long now. And people are suffering, people
are dying, mass mass bombing, masculine mass starvation, which
is really kind of bad for humanity, for humanity.
Now, you grew up in Jerusalem, Yeah.
(02:12):
And then came to this country toto work, you know, Do you?
Where? Where's your family?
All my siblings are in in Jerusalem.
They all live around Jerusalem. They're like in a way because
they all live in Jerusalem, which is slightly safer and
there are a lot of them. So they look after each other.
But the situation there is stillreally, really bad any and they
(02:35):
can just take off and I fear forthem as well.
I mean, you know, it's impossible to have a
conversation about Palestinian food, Yeah, without talking
about starvation, correct. Famine has been declared by the
UN body, the IPC in in Gaza. So how does that feel for you as
(02:57):
somebody whose life is food? Quite bad.
I mean, I put I kind of took a stand on social media.
I stopped posting food because although, you know, my, my book
Bustani just came out and I findit quite difficult navigating
through. I promote food and Palestinian
and Palestinian culture. And this is something that I've
(03:21):
been doing now for 20 years. And to be able to talk about
food without not acknowledging what's happening in Gaza, it's
too kind of difficult emotionally.
But also I I feel for all these people that been trapped there
and they did nothing to deserve this.
(03:44):
Nobody actually deserved to, to be treated like that.
So to be food, to be taken to weaponize and to control people
by starvation. But at the same time, I, my, my
role, I see it also clear. I talk about the Palestinian
culture and food and I have a role there where I promote it
(04:06):
and I want to talk about it. And I want to show that it's not
just black and white. There's quite a lot of Gray
areas. And we, we are a nation.
We are come, you know, coming from do we have our tradition
and food and and celebration andsadness and we are human.
And this is what I'm trying to say here with my writing.
So what? What is your emotional link to
(04:28):
the starvation there right now? I mean as a Palestinian.
As as a Palestinian, I, I, I'm, I just feel totally helpless and
I feel anger as well. I try to help as much by
promoting, donating, spreading the world, but at the same time,
(04:49):
what can we do as human? It's just, you know, we can just
do it as much as we can to to help the situation.
I mean, you, you said Palestinian, all Palestinian
food is political before all of this, Yeah.
What did you mean by that? I mean, everything that you
touch in this region between politics and there's always
somebody that kind of throw, especially I find it on social
(05:10):
media or when I do talks, peoplethrow all sorts of messages or
questions or challenges in frontof you.
And you just kind of feel like you think, OK, I'm just going to
challenge. I'm going to take the challenge
to kind of talk about that. And you talk about, the more you
talk about it, the more it's so clear that this person through
this discussion at you, just because they feel like the right
(05:31):
to, to challenge you, but that deep down in it, they, they know
nothing about the situation or where it started.
They just see this kind of shallow what happened to 2 1/2
years ago in, in, in Israel and Palestine did start there.
It started way back 7580 years ago.
But we don't see that because all they see from people.
(05:53):
I find it really, really kind offrustrating with people because
you can say this table is red and tell you know, it's, it's
green and so on. And there's no way you can
convince them. But at the same time, you need
to have a stand and just kind ofsay this is the right.
I have my memories. My family's still there.
They've been there for hundreds of years.
And you can't take that from me.I can't let you, because the
(06:15):
argument here is whether Palestine is Palestine and
whether it's there or been there, or do they have a
culture, do they have food and all that.
People say that there's no such thing as Palestinian.
Anything. Constantly.
Constantly. All the time.
Because it was never a country. Yeah, exactly.
Because it wasn't established, it doesn't mean that wasn't a
country. It was Palestinian were ahead of
(06:36):
their time, they were ahead of time, many aspects of life.
So, so what's what is Palestine to you in your head?
My country home, my family whereI grew up, my memories, the food
I grew up and borrowed from, thefood that I cooked nowadays and
celebrate in a way that I want to share it with other people,
but also I want to share it withPalestinians that never been to
(06:58):
Palestine. They don't know about these
cultural aspects and the memories and the foods and the
culture. But do you think of it as a
place or do you think of it as a?
Culture. It's home.
It is a place. And what?
What is that place? It's.
And how and how does it relate to Israel in your in your mind?
(07:20):
Palestine is for me, it's the connection to the land, to the
farming, to entrepreneur and to the celebration.
They are lovely people. Jerusalem, Nablus, Jericho,
Bethlehem, all these bases, all these cities are big part of the
country which called Palestine. Regardless to what Israel is
(07:43):
nowadays, Palestine was there before.
And so Palestine exists, you know, in your heart, as a place
that is legally now part of Israel.
Is that what you're saying? Well, not part of it.
I mean, I, I grew up, I left 25 years ago.
I grew up in the 70s there and the, the situation was
(08:06):
different. But also at the same time,
Israel and Palestine were to separate places.
And nowadays Israel is trying totake over what was left from
Palestine, started with Gaza, and now they're taking also the
West Bank. And what, what do you think the
aim is? You know Israel is talking about
(08:29):
total victory. What are you going to do with
over 5 million Palestinians? I mean, you can just go and kill
all of them or just kick them out of the countries and they
belong there. They've been there for ages,
generations. They have their culture, they
have their land, they have theirhouses, kids and nephews and,
(08:55):
and I don't know what situation,no, but what's the solution for
that? But it need to be sought from I
think from the outside, because the inside is not going to be
found in the solution for. It do you?
Do you do you feel they are trying to deliver the Trump plan
to get rid of the Palestinians from that land by by saying
(09:18):
we'll go and live in Egypt or Iraq or Jordan?
Or I mean, that's, that's ridiculous.
And I think after Trump, somebody else will come.
But hopefully whoever comes after Trump will try to find a
different solution for the because you can't the, the, the,
the whole region is just been livid and killing each other for
(09:40):
so long. And it needs to stop.
Palestinian need to have their rights and they need to have the
right to come to return home andstate.
Do you Do you go back? I do a lot.
I haven't been since September 7, but I I I used to go a few
times a year. And how did you feel about going
back? Not great, I am a non person
(10:03):
there but I treat. I've been treated so far.
What do you mean a non person? Israelis Palestinian know know
me as a you know, this kind of non chef that write and talk and
have restaurants and I as an Arab Palestinian I get treated
like a second class citizen. What happens?
(10:26):
Just it's so segregated and non non Jewish treated differently
and for an Arab Palestinian you treat it even worse than just a
non Jewish. Can you give me some examples?
Because I think people really don't understand what you mean
by that. Any any day you to be with
(10:47):
spoken down the simple just kindof down the street and somebody
will give me an identity card orpassport and they give you a
hard time and no reason for it apart from the fact that you're
Palestinian. Or when you go to the airport,
live with the country, you'll bequeuing in a different queue and
be like waiting for hours and they'll search your stuff and
(11:12):
really unpleasantly as well. So what?
What passports have you got? I have British luckily, but also
I have an Israeli 1. So you are an Israeli?
Only on paper. On paper, yeah.
Yeah, I don't consider myself Israeli.
Just just unpack that. What do you mean by that?
I am Palestinians. And so why haven't you gone back
(11:36):
since October 7th? Because I'm quite outspoken on
social media and knowing a lot of Palestinians, mainly who
spoke up, got prison or got hassled and I know the minute I
(11:57):
land back home, I'll be probablytaken to to prison.
You're afraid of that? Madam Yeah, As long as this
government is going on, I am notgoing to go back.
Simple then. Then let's.
(12:18):
Talk about your your partnershipa little bit.
You're you're still a partner, asylum partner now in Ossalengi
now. But what?
Why you, You in a way, you were always the silent partner.
Yeah. Because Yosemite was the front
man. So what?
Why was he the front man? Because he chose it.
(12:40):
I didn't want to be the the he, you know, in business like that,
one of us have to kind of run the back and one the front.
He was running the front and he wanted to be this kind of the,
the front of the, the business and I was happy to cook in and
manage in and run in the business and it was fine.
(13:01):
But I and you know, I don't regret anything, but if I have
to take it back a few years back, I would just change it
slightly. But I'm pretty much happy to be
the silent one. Right.
And when you say you change it, I mean.
I would just kind of change thatwith the, the thing that we used
to say in the past as a Palestinian, an Israeli, 2
(13:25):
friends, two partners, business partners, I mean, and I would
just give it, give the Palestinian side a little bit
more kind of a. Little bit more profile, Yeah.
I mean, was there any sense in which you felt you were going to
be more successful with an Israeli front man than a
Palestinian? No, I mean, we're the, the whole
(13:45):
thing started with us being friend.
We worked together before we started the whole Luttalengi and
we opened it on a kind of a friendship kind of relationship
and we'd honestly, we didn't even think about it that far or
how successful it is. We just wanted to do some nice
food to sell people and it just took off so quickly.
(14:08):
At the time. Also we never really talked
about politics. We're also our food was not
never like Israeli or Palestinian.
It was original kind of Middle East and Mediterranean in a way.
It's not even kind of challenging it.
We didn't we, it was clear that we don't, we don't want to do
(14:29):
Palestinian food because it it's, it's wrong.
But at the same time, after Jerusalem came out, the
cookbook, people started labeling us.
It's like this is an Israeli place.
This is a Palestinian place. The book is an Israeli.
No, it's Palestinian. And this is really bothered me.
And this is I think when all thetrouble started to kind of come
(14:51):
out like little crack of just kind of as you know, we still
nothing wrong happened between us, but I was not comfortable
with it being labeled as Israeli, as Israeli, I am half
of the business. Yes, I mean, he, he, your time,
you know, we talked very openly about how there was quite a lot
(15:12):
of cultural appropriation of food, you know, and that Israeli
food is Palestinian food. Would you feel you should have
been more clear about that? See, I mean, I need to clear
that because our food in the restaurants was never defined.
We we kind of it's it was a multicultural thing.
(15:33):
We never defined it as a Palestinian or when we didn't
serve any Palestinian food. With the autumn's writing, he
did take a lot of Palestinian dishes and kind of talked about
them and cooked them and published them as well.
And this is where the whole kindof sag with the conflict start,
whether he appropriate the food or not.
(15:54):
And so how, how did you see thatconflict?
I I see it as other people. I didn't see it.
It wasn't a conflict for you. It wasn't for me, but I was part
of the business. But I can't have control of what
he can write and publish. And so was that difficult for
you? As a friend then I didn't think
(16:17):
it it's a problem, but now I seeit, you know, it's so clear.
Explain. I think when you when you cook
pasta, for example, I cook pastaa lot and I never say this is
mine. But also I, I don't have complex
with, with Italy where when you touch Israel, Palestine, it's,
(16:40):
it's immediately brings this political kind of problem
between and cooking the food. Although he did acknowledge
that, you know, it's Palestinian.
As an Israeli, I would probably stay away from it.
(17:01):
You mean the way you you steer away from the conversation?
Whatever you do, because I, likeI said earlier, whatever you
touch in this region turns into politics.
He should have known better. He thought, I don't know.
I'm, I don't talk for him. But he probably thought it's
good to promote Palestinian food.
But actually he was appropriate in a way, kind of.
(17:22):
And did you, did you argue aboutit?
No, it's not for me to argue. It's his.
It's, you know, it's his right and it's he choose what he wants
to do. He is a successful food writer
with or without the business. How did you become friends?
We just worked together and we did realise that we I speak
Hebrew, he speak Arabic. 2 gay guys new in London.
(17:46):
We just bonded because we had a lot in in common.
Also we didn't really have many friends.
So it's kind of, you know, we became friends.
Can I ask you about being gay inin Jerusalem as well?
I mean, how, how easy was that as a Palestinian?
Not easy for me because I couldn't talk to my family about
(18:08):
it. I had to kind of take myself out
of because I lived in a very conservative and protective kind
of environment and the family were not kind of, they know now,
but we never talk about it, which is fine.
OK, well let's talk about the food itself then.
Yeah. What?
(18:29):
What is it you you want to communicate about Palestinian
food and what it is? I mean, food for me, it's a
passion, but also food for me, atool.
I can, for me talking to people and connecting with people
through food and foods, something that we all connect
on, whether we like to eat or cook or share or eat together.
(18:54):
And you can say quite a lot through food and recipes and
cookbooks. And people not necessarily will
sit and read a book about the history of Palestine through a
cookbook. You can say quite a lot and
people are willing to sit and, and read about it.
But also, I feel like there's a whole shift in cookbooks right
(19:14):
in and people that buy these cookbooks wants to zoom more on
where exactly this food come. What's the history?
What's the what's the kind of culture behind it?
Who made it? Why is it called this way when
it it made? And this is wonderful for me as
a Palestinian writer because I can talk about a lot of subjects
(19:36):
that related to Palestinian history, culture, and the food
as well. I.
Mean there are there are two things you you made clear right
at the beginning of the book, you know, which is that so much
of Palestine was about agriculture.
Yeah, but also a lot of the the things that make Palestinian
food tasty. The spice is from foraging.
(19:57):
Just explain this. I mean, we are Palestinian,
naturally are. Farmers, I mean, we are very, we
have a really strong deep connection to the land and
farming and the season, but alsoto the surrounding and foraging
and where this connection is really, really deep in our
culture as well. And we, I remember when we were
(20:20):
kids, my, my mum and dad took usto the hills or parts of the
Palestine where we just go out and forage for different herbs
and berries and greens. And this is something that it
will disappear eventually because Palestinian land have
been taken and shrinked and people don't have access to the
(20:40):
land though, but also to the hills, especially in the West
Bank, because it's so such a closed kind of area that you
don't have this. The culture will stop at some
point because people are not going to be able to, to do the,
the, the, the seasonal thing, which, you know, going out like
I did with my parents and pick all these wonderful things to,
(21:02):
to cook and eat, but also preserving this culture.
It will, I mean, next generations will, will lose that
as well. And it's really important for me
to write about it because I haveall these wonderful memories
that kind of related to all of what I mentioned.
And I worry that one day they'regoing to get lost.
(21:24):
So documented them in a cookbook, which I I kind of, I
think it's wonderful when kids by seeing kids want to one day
kind of read about it. So what's the flavours that you
go? Picking.
So we have from dandelion to jute Melo to different kind of
(21:45):
chicory that we used to. There's quite a lot of berries
and mulberries and wild figs, sage and zata, which is a same
family as oregano and different medicinal herds as well.
So where? Where will these things come
from in a world in which the settlers have taken over the
(22:08):
hills in the West Bank and Gaza has been destroyed?
This is what we need to save. This is what need to be fixed.
Because if if we just keep killing it, it is going to die
and we just need to save it. Well, when you've seen the
images in the last few days of Gaza, you know, absolutely
(22:33):
destroyed what has been your. It's really sad because Gaza
was, I'm kind of preparing for an article now and I was reading
about the whole cuisine of Palestinian, but also Gazan.
And Gazan, they were displaced. They were not all originally
from there. They are also the original
(22:54):
Gazan, but it's a very fertile land and it was always and
produced the most wonderful strawberries and chilies and
roses and, and, and now it's a dead land.
It will take generation to bringit back to, to be able to grow
anything there. And it's what we human being do
(23:18):
to our kind of world. How important is it to bring it
back? I mean, I don't know.
It's, I don't know what kind of bombs they use, but, and I'm not
an expert in these things, but you know, it's a dead land at
the moment. Yeah, but I mean, what What I
(23:39):
mean is like, do you in order topreserve that culture, what do
you do? I mean, do you, do you, do you
recreate it on on land that is currently dead and poisoned or,
or what? I.
Mean, I mean not, not all the land in, in in Gaza is dead and
they still can, but digging all the rubble and excavating all
(24:02):
the layers of damage it will take, it will take a few years.
But for me as a food writer and a ship, I, I write about it,
talk about it, I, you know, cookit.
I let people cook it as well andexperience it.
And there's more than just, you know, people getting bombed and
being starved and being, being killed.
(24:22):
They have stories. They are humans.
They have, you know, they cherish a lot of things that I
write about, from food to culture to forage into the
connection to the land. I wanted to ask you about being
a restaurateur as well. I mean, you were, you were
deeply involved in running the Ottolenghi restaurants and the
(24:43):
other restaurants in the in the group.
I mean, you know, running restaurants is famously
exhausting, difficult, emotionally draining.
Did you find it? All of those things.
Yeah. And This is why I stopped 5 five
years ago because I, the companyconstantly expanded and I, I
struggled. I struggled because I I thought
(25:06):
this is not what I wanted to do in five years time.
I want to I I achieved a lot. I have 3 cookbooks behind me and
I'm doing really well. But I wanted to find the corner
where I can just say I am also happy and running 6 kitchens and
(25:26):
70 staff was not my point of happiness.
And I, I stopped because I also went through an open heart
surgery like a couple of years before that and I needed to slow
down and I needed to also enjoy what I achieved.
And I couldn't do that for any residents.
So you just left? Just I said I did my bets.
(25:49):
It's now for whatever and like you know, whoever wants to take
over or the next generation. The company is still expanding
and I'm glad that I'm not part of it because I'm probably be
dead by now. You went to Italy I.
Have a place in Italy, Yeah. To your to your house there and
(26:09):
and you, you said you had a bit of a meltdown.
Yeah. What did you mean by that?
Because having been part of a wonderful 20 years and I really
had a lot of fun. It's hard because it's just like
leaving your your family. It's and you doubt yourself
whether you are doing the right things or not.
(26:31):
And but I knew deep inside that I needed to to leave.
But also at the same time, you think I don't want to respond to
all these people that I was, youknow, part of for so many years.
And this is the meltdown. Also doing the step, but also
feeling comfortable that I can actually stand on my feet and
continue in a different direction and I'm still
(26:53):
standing. And from that came this book.
It started in just before COVID and COVID was the kind of push
to go to Italy. And when you're in situation
like COVID, you feel very homesick and you want the
connection with the family and with the with the memories, with
the food as well. And I was like it because it was
(27:15):
spring and the the climate in Nombria is very similar to
Jerusalem. So I just went out for long
walks and picked different things.
I started cooking, working at home, and this really brought me
a lot of comfort and also brought me really closer to
where I grew up, which is Jerusalem and the family
constantly. My sister.
Do you remember this herb? How do you do it?
And this is kind of a connectionthat I missed as well.
(27:37):
But I also realized that I always had it and I started just
writing notes. And only when we got back to
London that I started thinking there's so many memories and so,
so much knowledge that if I don't write it down, it will get
lost. And so I started talking to
(27:58):
friends about the idea of Bastani and my, my ex editor
called me. It's like, whatever you're
working on, I'm going to publish.
And this just gave me the whole push to to do.
It and, and how important was itto you to say this is
Palestinian food? And, and you know, because so
much of the food that you know, you're, you're writing about and
that you make, you know, you canfind something either the same
(28:19):
or very similar in Lebanon, Syria, you know, Israel, a lot
of the countries around that region.
So what is it that makes it distinctly Palestinian?
The fact that I grew up in Palestine and had it that and
cooked it and also because yes, there is quite a lot of shared
(28:40):
food and dishes, but also like anything in in the Middle East,
but also in Palestine as well, each household does it something
different. Palestinian food tend to be
quite a lot more earthy and robust and well balanced with
the flavour. But also as a, you know, it
could really connect you to preserving the food to the land,
(29:03):
to the farming, to what grows around.
And you know, foraging was also part of the the cuisine, and
this still is. Who taught you to cook?
I taught myself I'm a self-taught Christian.
I I wasn't encouraged to be cooked at all.
My the opposite actually, when I, I was so curious about it the
(29:26):
whole time and it's pretty much a woman kind of space and I was
always just kind of kicked out and just go and play with your
friends. And so, yeah, it was kind of, I
grew up in a total obsessed kindof household and this something
(29:50):
that stayed with you and I, I, Ifeel like I inherited, but also,
you know, I skilled it. I took it and kind of worked on
it and something that I should be also proud of.
Why? Why is it then that the, you
know, a lot of the sort of better known restaurants,
(30:13):
whether they're Palestinian or Syrian in, in London
particularly, are created by men?
Because it's physically hard to to stand on your feet for so
long. And it's, it is changing now.
But it's not just the Middle Eastern and the Palestinian.
And that's every, every restaurant because it's a
(30:36):
demanding physical job that sometime you have to stand 16
hours on your feet. And men are, you know, slightly
stronger than women. That's a controversial thing to
say. I know, but I come from this
(30:56):
industry and I know, I mean, it is changing and it's really good
to see so many women now in the industry.
But you know, for many years it was only a male thing.
Yes. I mean, you don't think that
it's just sort of actually just a sex?
No, no, no, rather than no, no. So it's just, you know, because
it was pretty much just her own male kind of big egg goes and
(31:20):
it's changing. It's been changing.
I have a, a kind of a hand to change in that as well because
I, I, we're dolenghi. We welcomed everybody, whether
female or male. Well then just let me just come
back to the whole question. If I mean you, you said you've
been very vocal on social media since October, the 7th in
particular. Has that, has that been
(31:44):
problematic for you in terms of I mean?
It bothered, it bothered me, I mean, from visit that I used to
go home and things are changing to the worst and it really
bothered me. And but I kept it in because I
thought, you know, it's not my place to talk about politics.
But then when October happened, I was in Jerusalem and I was
(32:04):
meant to spend some time with mysiblings.
It was not a safe place for a Palestinian.
You couldn't even walk up the street.
And they lived 10 minutes from where I was staying.
So I had to leave the country. And it, I really feared for
their safety. I, I feared for my safety as
well when I was there, but also for their safety.
And it really bothered me that people keep pointing out that
(32:29):
it's it's a Hamas and October 7th where it kicked in.
But actually it's been going on for the last 80 years.
And have you lost any friendships over this?
A lot. A lot of people, a lot of people
that I thought we are close and they are either and followed me
on social media, stopped talkingto me.
(32:49):
And it it's really hurtful. But at the same time I'm
thinking I'm not going to sit and cry about what happened
because if they want to be friends with me, they just need
to bite the bullet and just kindof deal with it.
And also at the same time, I think I don't want to be friends
with somebody that can't even face humanity and reality and
just say they don't need to do much.
(33:11):
Just text me, say, are you OK? Are your family OK?
And this is this is it, this is just showing you.
But also there's so much going on at the moment and I'm still
dealing with friends saying thisis not wrong.
This is the way it is, this is how it happened.
And I'm, I'm really fed up with that.
Close friends. Yeah, I lost.
(33:33):
I lost quite a lot of close friends.
I mean, I had a huge fight with an Israeli friend of mine.
She was my friend for 25 years and we we we had a fight and we
stopped talking. That's very sad.
It is very sad, but also you just feel like, I mean, the
situation, like all you, all youwant is somebody to tap your
(33:53):
shoulder and say that are you OK?
And when you don't have these people, you think they're not
really friends. What's your what's your hope
then now? I hope, I really hope that this
whole madness of this whole government in Israel stops.
And but, you know, if America and Trump is promoting it and,
(34:17):
you know, supporting it, then it's not going to stop.
And then people are dying. They are real general people to
dying. And it's really, really sad.
Sammy Tamimi, thank you very much.
Thank you very much. Thank you for joining us.
I hope you enjoyed that. If you did, then give us a
(34:37):
rating or a review and then other people will find the
podcast. You can watch all of these
interviews on the Channel 4 NewsYouTube channel.
Until next time, bye bye.
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