June 17, 2025 • 34 mins
Jacinda Ardern is arguably the most globally famous and lauded New Zealand Prime Minister of modern times.
Her international profile began with her being the world's youngest head of government at thirty seven, who within months had a baby and took it all in her stride.
But it was her response to the horrific terrorist attack on mosques in Christchurch that gave her hero status amongst progressives around the world - embracing the muslim community in New Zealand and passing strict gun laws in response.
Her six years as prime minister also meant dealing with the covid pandemic, and the fury and conspiracy theories around lockdowns and vaccines that came with it - many of which targeted her personally. And then in January 2023 - as suddenly as she had arrived on the global stage, she stood down. Her book, A Different Kind of Power, is perhaps the most sensitive and candid account of a leader you could ask for, framed around her desire to be remembered for her kindness.
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Episode Transcript
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(00:00):
There is deep financial insecurity and there are
multiple ways to respond to that.
As politicians, we have seen currently those who are reaching
for the old tools blame, fear, othering, and they have
attracted voters. So what do we do?
Two things, our politics and oursystems, have to be responsive
to people's needs. COVID is a really interesting
(00:21):
section in the book I think. Did the anger surprise you?
It worried me deeply and it saddened me.
We have this war going on effectively between Israel and
Iran. If you were in power now, what
would you be saying? When children are the casualties
of warfare, the complete should become simple.
The war needs to end. Hello and welcome to Ways to
(00:47):
Change the World. I'm Krishna Girimurthy, and this
is the podcast in which we talk to extraordinary people about
the big ideas in their lives andthe events that have helped
shape them. My guest today is the most
globally famous and lauded New Zealand Prime Minister of modern
times, Jacinda Ardern. Her international profile began
with her being the world's youngest head of government at
37, who within months had a babyand took it all in her stride.
(01:10):
But it was her response to the horrific terrorist attack on
mosques in Christchurch that gave her hero status amongst
progressives around the world, embracing the Muslim community
in New Zealand and passing strict gun laws in response.
Her six years as Prime Minister also meant dealing with the
COVID pandemic and the fury and conspiracy theories around
lockdowns and vaccines that camewith it, many of which targeted
(01:32):
her personally. And then in January 2023, almost
as suddenly as she had arrived on the global stage, she stood
down. Her book, A Different Kind of
Power, is perhaps the most sensitive and candid account of
a leader you could ask for, framed around her desire to be
remembered for her kindness. Jacinda, welcome.
Thank you very much. If you could change the world in
(01:52):
any way, how would you change it?
I would try to ensure that we had more people in political
leadership who valued kindness and empathy in their leadership.
And I think that there are leaders out there like that, but
there's not a lot of incentivismpolitics currently to put those
styles of leadership on display.I mean, kindness is an odd
(02:14):
political ambition to talk aboutit is in in these days.
Why? Why was that in your mind so
early on? You know, I, I, I remember just
thinking about the things that Ivalued as a person.
And I think actually, when you, when you ask people about the
things that, for instance, they wish to teach their children as
character traits, the things that you really want to be
highly prized as a parent, You know, you'll probably list off
(02:36):
things like curiosity, generosity, bravery and courage.
But but kindness is so often in that list as well.
But sometimes we've or somehow we've created a separation
around the things we we value inour homes and our daily lives
and what we expect in our leaders.
For me in New Zealand, kindness became an important value, not
(02:59):
just in what we did, but how we did it.
I had a concern that especially if you'd spent nine years in
opposition as we had, that people start to see you as
relentlessly negative, dogmatic,perhaps not focused on the
issues that are important to you.
So kindness became a value framefor the way that we wanted to do
(03:19):
politics as well. So what did that mean for
policy, the way you would look at things?
Well, two things, like in reallypractical terms, I mean, we've
got a Westminster style of, of government, so it's easier.
It's oppositional, it's adversarial.
It means that the debating chamber is like a, you know,
it's like a Bullring is a, it's,it's, you know, it's quite
feisty. There's, you know, a lot of
(03:41):
heckling. And look, I was never going to
change the traditions, but from the moment that we started our
campaign, I said, even though we're opposition, we will we
will be positive in our campaign.
We'll talk about ideas about change, but really importantly,
we will not attack other politicians personally.
So for example, if there was ever a scandal or anything that
(04:01):
personally affected some other member of another party, we
wouldn't engage in it. It wasn't for us, it was for
them, it was for their leadership team.
And then when it came to policy,it's it's simply people centric
policy making and ensuring as well that you're not just you're
not being performative if there is a crisis, if there is a
(04:22):
tragedy, that your empathy, yourhuman approach was also followed
through with with action I. Mean if you if you don't attack
your, your, your opposite numbers on those sorts of
scandals, then you're giving away a political opportunity to
some degree. I mean, when you say our system
(04:42):
doesn't incentivize that kind ofbehaviour, kindness, what do you
mean? What's wrong with it?
Well, first of all, I'd say thatit's important to always hold to
account your political opposition on their ideas and
their policies. You never give that away.
That's of course important to have a good contest of ideas,
but that doesn't mean that we have to succumb to the idea of
personally attacking individuals, bringing their
families in or plowing into whatmight be personal scandal that
(05:06):
that there has in the past been codes of that nature and
politics, but they've they've ebbed away over time.
And secondly, the idea of this, what are the incentives for
politicians? I mean, for the most part, of
course, politicians are successful if people vote for
them. People vote for them if they
first and foremost have name recognition and your old
measures for that of whether or not your constituents will know
(05:27):
who you are is whether or not you have coverage is whether or
not you're in the headlines or you've made the news or a story
of the day. Increasingly, and this is no
one's fault, it's the environment we're in.
In a commercialized environment,people click on and read those
things that bring out rage or anger or disbelief, Less likely
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to click on those things where apolitician has, you know,
drafted a bill that's of you. So come up with a policy I do or
working on consensus with an opposition member of Parliament.
And yet that is ultimately, well, I still believe voters are
looking for. It's just not what they're
seeing. And that's why I think we have a
disillusionment with politics. What's covered is not
(06:09):
necessarily what is happening day in, day out in our politics.
I mean, it's not, it's not an appealing world is the truth, is
it? It's, you know, we don't get the
best people going into politics.Well, we've got to think about
what whether or we have a branding problem and you know, I
knew when I was there people always interested or why you
were there. Politics is though, at its heart
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it's still a noble act of publicservice, but that's not what
people see on the label anymore.So I do think we need to do some
work to reclaim that. It's a privileged position.
What other places can you affectgenuine change and solve
problems that you know might be incredibly confronting for your
communities and see the difference that you make in your
day-to-day job. That's incredible.
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We want the best people for their job.
I mean, it's fashionable to think that you came out of
nowhere. Obviously you didn't.
You'd been at it for years and years, and you were in
opposition for a long time, yes.How did you hold on to your
idealism? I think in a world of sort of
nasty politics. I, I think in a, in a way, I
just gave up on the idea of being successful.
(07:12):
And, and I think when you lack abit of that personal ambition,
it helps because, you know, you do hold on to a, a set of ideas
about the way you want to do things and accept that that
might mean that you're not particularly successful.
I'd like to think though, that the lesson from and by I was not
by any means a perfect politician at all.
But I do hope that one lesson could be that if you are driven
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by the ideas of empathetic leadership, if you do value
things like kindness and you aretotally focused on these acts of
public service, there is a placefor you and you can succeed.
I managed. I had the opportunity to test
whether or not the public would vote for those values, and they
did. I think we should put that to
the test more often. So when you go and talk to young
(07:56):
people about why they should go into public service and they
look around the world and they see, you know, angry populists
doing really, really well, what do you say to them about why you
should? Yeah.
I think we need to dig a little deeper into that.
I mean, one of the things problems we have is this is a
bit self fulfilling at the moment.
(08:16):
Edelman do a a global survey of trust and confidence and what
they're finding at the moment isover 60% of people feel
grievance. They feel grievance towards
politics, but they also increasingly feel grievance
towards the private sector as well.
And that sense of grievance means that they don't feel that
their problems are being answered or issues responded to.
And I think you can see some of the patterns around that. 1/3 of
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people don't think the next generation will be better off
than they did. And that's something
historically you've looked to asan indicator for politics.
There is deep financial insecurity, I think out there
off the back of the the shock ofa global pandemic.
And there are multiple ways to respond to that.
As politicians, we have seen currently those who are reaching
(09:01):
for the old tools blame, fear othering those.
Those ideas are the some of the oldest political tricks in the
book. And they have attracted voters.
I don't think always because they totally align on every
ideology. I don't think that people voting
for that means that, you know, everyone favours far right
(09:22):
ideology. But they are feeling that sense
of grievance from the old system.
So what do we do? Two things, our politics and our
systems have to be responsive topeople's needs.
It might be that we need to dig into whether or not our
electoral systems are meeting their needs, whether they feel
their vote is counting and secondly, we have to get better
(09:43):
at delivering, particularly in the space of financial
insecurity. So So how do you rate your own
delivery? There were areas absolutely
where we were struggling to keepup with, for instance, the huge
cost of living impacts that followed COVID.
Absolutely that was tough. And I think you see that in many
(10:05):
Western liberal democracies. Those governments who not just
governed through COVID, but governed in the aftermath of
COVID have struggled with that. But that says to me that some of
the critical things you need in those periods are a good
financial safety net. We certainly tried to increase
the value of ours. You need constant lifelong
access to education in a changeable environment with
(10:27):
these rapid technological change, and you need good access
to the basics in life like healthcare on all three of those
measures. You look to a society like the
United States is people often feel this fragility in those
areas. And, and do you think our
systems, our political systems also make it harder to deliver?
I think, look, I, I think there's a couple of things
(10:49):
going, going on. I think people have an
expectation of quick delivery and that's not unreasonable.
But the scale of change that sort, sometimes our systems
aren't always able to keep up. You require, for instance, good,
good infrastructure in your public service, but we go
through a yo yoing where one government will break that down,
reduce down their core public service and the the expertise
(11:13):
that exists within it, and the next government will spend years
rebuilding it. So there are some things that
become harder to deliver on. The second point I'd make is
many Western liberal democracieshave struggled with the
provision of things like housing, most of which have a
multitude of issues affecting the delivery, whether it's sits
within sits within resource consenting or the role of the
(11:36):
private sector complex. But when it comes to the nuts
and bolts, voters just want decent affordable housing and
many of us have struggled with that too.
Yes, I. Mean these are the two things
this government here is struggling, you know,
desperately trying to get thingsback up to speed in their terms
means you look at it and think, well, you don't want to do it.
(11:58):
I'm very, I'm very cautious about ever commenting on anyone
else's domestic politics becausefirst of all, I'm not embedded
in it and, you know, don't have the the insight required to make
such, but. These are the same issues or.
What we'll see is there is a consistency of issue, but I'm
really interested in the likes of user Klein and those who
speak of this notion of abundance.
(12:19):
But I think the notion of the, you know, the importance but
difficulty of swift delivery in an environment where people not
unfairly have have expectations of the politicians in their
systems. In terms of your values, I mean
you, you, you. You talk about your childhood in
the book. Daughter of a policeman.
(12:39):
Yeah. A Mormon family.
Yeah. Is is that where the values come
from? No.
I think so. I mean, when you, when I came to
write the memoir and it's not I,I'd like to think it's not a
normal political memoir. It's a story, really of if you
don't expect to be a leader, howdoes that happen?
And I think there's lots of things that can lead you into a
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life of politics. And I try to just list what I
think might be some of mine. Well, not list them, but just
share insights into them. My father was a policeman.
I was raised in a Mormon family.I had family members who cared
deeply about politics. All of those things may have
played out, but so too might have just been the places I
lived. What, what do you think, what
(13:22):
was unique about, I mean your childhood in New Zealand though
is, is, you know, New Zealand's a very different place to, to,
to, to, you know, urban Britain.What do you think you get from
that kind of upbringing that is different in terms of your
outlook? Do, you know, I think the fact
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that I grew up with two female prime ministers before me made
that I never grew up believing that my gender would get in the
way of me having No, I did not. What I did think though, was
that my personality absolutely would get in the way.
And by that, I mean, you know, Ihad a bit of a confidence gap.
You know, you might call it imposter syndrome.
I was very thin skinned. I worried about the world.
(14:06):
All of those things that you think wouldn't give you enough
resilience for, for politics. But the difference for me in New
Zealand is that I think, you know, we're not a hierarchical
place. We are egalitarian.
We are, we have an accessible democracy and that is like to
think that other places will have elements of that.
But that is something that's very pronounced I think in New
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Zealand. So I could go from being amongst
the first of my family to go to university to also being Prime
Minister. I mean, you end up concluding it
in the book effectively that impostor syndrome, insecurity,
all of those things are or can be strengths.
Absolutely. And we don't talk about them in
that way. And that was one of the reasons
I wanted to write the book. Just just unpack it.
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What I mean, Why why? Why is it good?
Well, that, that those, you know, those character traits
which we've been taught to believe are flaws, they don't
sit there in isolation. You will do something to try and
compensate for it. And in my experience, that meant
additional preparation, always anticipating risk, bringing in
experts, advisors, humility. And I think actually when you
(15:11):
face a crisis, like for instance, say COVID, you, you
want experts to be around the table.
You want leaders seeking out thebest possible advice.
And we probably want a bit of humility too.
So I think the trick is seeing those elements as a strengthened
leadership and trying to not allow something like imposter
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syndrome to overwhelm you or hold you back from taking on
opportunities. And Covid's a really interesting
section in the book, I think. And, you know, you describe how
you had to sort of wrestle with to what extent you level with
the public. Yeah, there was, there was a
really difficult period that we had in COVID.
There was almost COVID in two parts, the part before the
vaccines and the part after whenwe were in roll out of the
(15:54):
vaccines. And when Delta came into New
Zealand, it was a very difficultperiod where it looked like
unlike before we weren't we weren't going to be able to get
rid of it. And top of my mind all the way
through was these dual, these dual goals of saving people's
lives, but also bringing people with us.
And whilst we saved an estimated20,000 lives and we had fewer
(16:19):
days in lockdown than most countries, I didn't manage to
keep everyone together. And so I, I spent a bit of time
trying to reflect on that in thebook I.
Mean would it ever have been possible given the world we're
now in and conspiracy theories and social media?
And, and it's something I grapple with as well, because I
think no country had an experience in isolation.
(16:43):
And we see, I think, through ourexperience, just how connected
we are, not just at a practical level in the way that this
pandemic moved through the world, but the way ideas, the
way information, the way disinformation moves through the
world. And it's something we have to
come to terms with, particularlyif we want to ensure that our
democracies remain healthy and that we learn again, how to have
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good robust debate with one another, healthy protest, the
engagement that we're used to without it turning to to
violence. Did did the anger surprise you?
Did it surprise me? I think it worried me deeply and
it saddened me. I'm not sure at that point
whether I would have considered a complete surprise because
(17:25):
there was some build up to that.You saw it brewing.
You could feel the sentiment. And of course, we weren't alone
in it. I mean, I, I, I had a old school
friend who had moved to New Zealand at the time.
Who started sending me these furious messages about how her
life had been ruined by you. And, and I remember being
(17:47):
surprised by it, thinking there's something weird going on
here, you know? And it's not surprising,
obviously, that conspiracy theories took hold, but there
was a assured, A sureness aroundit amongst those people.
They were absolutely. Because the thing about people
taking the decisions, I suppose you were wrestling with what the
(18:08):
right thing to do was, and you weren't really sure.
People on the other side were absolutely, 100% sure that they
were right. Well, to be clear, the thing I
was very clear on was the right thing to do was to try and
preserve life, was to try and ensure that we we knew something
would make a difference, to savelives that we had.
We were very clear minded about that.
You know, where it became difficult was, of course, at the
(18:29):
point we were in the midst of both rolling out a vaccination
while scrabbling with how we transitioned into a world where
COVID was in our community, which was always going to be an
endpoint. That transition was hard, The
experience that you relay. I mean, it wasn't the majority
of New Zealanders, but it did exist.
That sentiment did exist for some.
(18:50):
And the reflection for me is notto sit and say that there wasn't
a contribution of government policy to the way people felt.
We have to take accountability for that.
But let's also recognize that some of that was happening then
for public servants. Some people with high profiles
and medicine and science experienced that anger towards
them as well and globally, not just in New Zealand.
(19:14):
I looked abroad and suddenly realized that we this is not
isolated and that therefore means that there isn't a
challenge that sits well beyond just a singular time in office
and a singular leader. What was it frightening for you
personally when you got threats or threats towards your family?
And not to trivialize this, not to trivialize this, but
increasingly that is the world for politicians.
(19:35):
And that does not mean that thatis OK, but it does mean that I
don't consider myself a special case.
But how did how did you feel about it when, when you're
getting death threats or threatsof violence towards your family,
not just towards you, You know, what do you think when you're
sitting there in a position of power?
I think I have a job to do and Ido it you.
(19:57):
Just ignore it. You can't ignore it, OK?
Well, if if you dwell on it, then what?
You know, you have a job to do, you're elected to do it.
And I was very clear eyed in that.
I think again as well, yeah, I do consider myself very, you
know, an empathetic leader, but that does not mean that I
coexist with frailty. I consider myself resilient
(20:19):
because I'm so clear eyed on what I feel is important.
And my job was one of service, so I remain pretty focused on
that. Let's just go back to
Christchurch because I think that's where I think the world
suddenly saw you as something different and where empathy as a
leader was really noticed. You you seem to know exactly how
(20:44):
to respond immediately. Was it, was it, was it an
instinctive response? Yeah, I, I.
Think that's probably the only way to describe it, but I also
would say that it was also the way you saw New Zealanders
respond. So I, I very much felt like I
was part of what was a nationwide response, not
necessarily one that I singularly determined.
(21:05):
That was New Zealanders pushed back on what was ultimately the
goal of a white supremacist to try and cede hate and division.
They clearly rejected that and Ihappened to absolutely share
their view and and I hope and inmy own way lead on that too.
Things like. Wearing a a head covering.
(21:27):
I mean, again, was that, did youthink about that or did you just
do it? Not really.
I remember thinking, I'm going down to Christchurch, I'll be
amongst the community. This is a, a, a practice it
feels, you know, instinctively it felt to me solely as the, as
the most respectful thing I could do at in a moment in time
that was, you know, it was a targeted attack against the
(21:51):
Muslim community. It was their grief that they
were carrying. It was their family.
It was their loved ones that hadbeen lost.
And so for me it was, it was just the natural thing to do in
terms of the. International response.
You famously spoke to Donald Trump.
Just tell us about that interaction, what you wanted
(22:13):
from him and what you got. I don't remember.
Particularly having an an agenda, one of the things that
happens in the aftermath of events like this, as leaders do
reach out, they share their grief, they offer assistance.
And so when that opportunity came from the American
president, what was there anything the United States can
(22:34):
do for you? I remember just thinking, well,
actually right now, just love and support for for all Muslim
communities. That was that was felt to me
like the most important thing that anyone could do at that at
that time. You didn't get that.
Well, that's. Not for me to judge, that would
be for the Muslim community to judge, but you.
But. You, I mean you must have
(22:54):
noticed that the reaction was not well at that.
Point in time. The one you wanted, I mean.
Presumably you didn't think thatyou would get that keeping in
mind. That at that point in time,
there was already what was coined a Muslim ban in the
United States when it came to torefugees.
So that was already in place when I made that comment.
What did that tell you about him?
(23:16):
Look, ultimately he obviously took a very particular view on
immigration policy, which obviously would be at odds with
my perspective, but I don't think that will be news to
anyone. No, But I.
Mean we're seeing it again now so and you live in you live in
America now you live in Boston Ithink what we're.
Seeing is a form of leadership that is not unique to 1 country.
(23:37):
I think we're seeing it in a number of different quarters
now. And, and as I say, you know,
when we see deep financial insecurity and, and population
seeking answers, politicians often will, you know, seek to
blame or weaponize fear. And we do see that.
We see particular communities being targeted.
And again, as I say, not just one country, but many adopting
(24:00):
that approach. I do not believe that will
ultimately offer for voters the answers that they're looking
for. And so my hope is that over
time, we will have politicians ready with the policy responses
that voters seek. I mean you, you now have.
A position at Harvard University, which is obviously
being targeted by the administration.
I mean, do you know, for example, whether you're whether
you're included in their foreignban?
(24:20):
Yeah, here I would say. That look, I am, I am a, you
know, a fellow. I'm not faculty.
I'm not at the heart of these issues.
And, you know, my time at Harvard has allowed me, you
know, the biggest thing for me is that it allowed me the time
to sit, reflect, learn from students and maintain my
optimism even in this moment of time in time.
(24:43):
And my optimism comes from the young people that I spend time
with that in spite of what is occurring around them, they hold
on to the fact that they have a role to play regardless of
whether or not they see their values being reflected in any
current administration. I mean optimism.
Right now, if you're, I mean, ifyou're a, if you're a foreign
student at Harvard, it's pretty hard, isn't it?
(25:03):
I'd imagine not for from. What I've seen that's still
there. Really.
Yes. Yeah.
In In what? Form.
I mean, I think you know what? What, what?
What can you be? Optimistic about in that
situation given everything that's going on around you.
My interpretation. Of optimism is that it is not
naivety, it's expectation. It's an expectation and belief
that leaders should be and will do better.
(25:24):
And I think the moment that we lose that optimism is the moment
we tip into indifference. If I saw indifference, I think I
would be much more worried, but I don't.
Do you think there are enough people, though, who have that
expectation? I do, of their politicians?
Because, I mean, a lot of peopleare perhaps not indifferent, but
looking the other way a lot of the time.
I think The thing is. Coming back again to what some
(25:46):
of the research and insights is telling us, if we know that 60%
of people hold some grievance, that still tells us they have an
expectation that politics is there to serve them in some way.
I think the worrying thing is that 4 out of 10 people believe
hostile acts are justified in this current environment.
We do need to make sure that we're being responsive, and we
also need to make sure that we cultivate an environment where
(26:07):
people do no longer believe thatit's acceptable to engage in
those hostile acts, and instead find ways to engage in their
democracies where they see them being responsive and they feel
that they're being reflective oftheir needs.
What did you learn? From winning the election midway
through your time as as Prime Minister, when you were going
(26:28):
through this very, very difficult time in COVID, Labour
hadn't won a majority for a longtime.
Well, no one had. Since MMP had come in in 1996.
Yeah, exactly. And and suddenly, despite all
this controversy, you you take Labour to an unprecedented
victory. Yeah, well, actually the.
COVID approach, as I say, was a COVID approach of too hard.
It's a really difficult period came later in COVID that yeah,
(26:50):
it was, it was, you know, widelysupported at that time.
And so I saw it as that victory.I try and describe it in the
book. It didn't feel like a this
straight normal victory. I I didn't feel like
celebrating. For me it was a request from New
Zealanders to keep going, just to keep doing my job and at that
(27:14):
time it was a very hard job. How?
How long did? You think the instructions keep
going lasted? Well, I mean, ultimately, when
I, when I decided it was time togo, there was not anything
particularly spicy having in thephenolitical agenda, you know,
COVID and, and the disruption around it.
And, you know, was a a year behind us was important to me
(27:36):
actually, that we were in relatively calm waters when I
made the decision only a few points shy of where we were when
we were elected. But for me, the question was, is
it the right thing to do to run again?
Do I have enough in the tank? And the answer for me was not if
I want to be the kind of leader I think New Zealand deserves.
I mean you, you talk a little. Bit about how you you'd started
(27:56):
losing a bit of patience, yeah, I felt.
I felt a bit more defensive and that was a something I really
valued in leadership. Yeah, I talk a little bit about
whether or not my patience was waning a bit.
All of those things that I thought were important, I was I
was worrying about. Was that a sort?
Of symptom of tiredness. Or, well, I do, I did.
Think I I could have kept going.I believe that it was not
(28:19):
burnout per SE, but it was this idea of whether there was enough
in reserve. And when you're in leadership
like that, we have to expect theunexpected.
You need something in reserve. I mean a a lot.
Of the book is about you as a mother and the time that you
were able to spend and weren't able to spend with your
daughter. I mean, what, what did you, you
(28:42):
know, what, what did you end up concluding about that?
You know, because obviously you had all the sort of the, the
skepticism and the, the sort of the impertinent questions before
about, you know, what were you planning to do and were you
going to be a mum and all the rest of it.
You do it. And then a few years in, I
suppose how your daughter was 5 when you when you stepped down,
(29:04):
what did you conclude about being a woman in your position
as a young mother and how, how how easy it is and how easy it
should be? I think that there are women all
over the world juggling caregiving roles and significant
leadership or, or roles outside of the outside of their
(29:27):
caregiving. And I don't think I need to
prove they can, that you can do it all, because they already do.
But the point that I would rather try and make is they
shouldn't be expected to do it alone.
I was very privileged that I hadAI, had a support network, and I
believe all women should have that support network.
And the second thing I learned was that actually, even if
(29:49):
you're doing a job like leading a country, you still feel like
you should be with your childrenall of the time.
And I don't know that there's any job that stops you feeling
that way. And maybe there's some comfort
in knowing that, but maybe we should also give ourselves some
grace to want the same things for ourselves and our lives that
we actually want for our children.
(30:09):
I mean you. You had a support network of
both your your your husband and your your parents.
Obviously not everybody has that.
No, not everyone. Does So what?
What needs? To happen for for people who
don't have that governments. Have a role to play.
You know, some of the things we did, we extended paid parental
leave to six months, we increased the payments for sole
parents, we increased child's care subsidies.
(30:30):
We put in place a universal takes credit for the first year
of a child's life. You know, our goal was to try
and give families more choices, not a particular, you know,
position on whether you should be at home or whether you should
be in work. We instead wanted families to
have more choices. And it was a work in progress.
But that's the kind of role I believe government also has to
(30:50):
play. You, you, you.
You bring it round at the end tocalling a journalist, funnily
enough, a journalist who you'd spoken to in the car on the way.
Just tell us that story. I mean, it's a funny thing to
do, I suppose, to call the journalist on their way to your
being announced. Well, on the way ahead, well,
just. Because on the way.
To being sworn in. It was quite an unusual thing to
(31:12):
be interviewed in a car on the way to be sworn in to being
Prime Minister. And quite a few people had
commented to me that it felt like a really interesting time
capsule of sorts because while we were having the conversation,
it was, well, what kind of government do you want to be,
you know, and where are you now?What's your location?
And so it was an observational, an interesting observational
(31:35):
interview. So as I drove to resign, I felt
like maybe it would be an interesting observational piece
to just share that moment with that same journalist, and not
particularly for any purpose other than just to record the
moment. Just while you're with us, can I
ask you, and I don't know whether you want to talk about
(31:57):
this or not, but I mean, the world is in a very, very
difficult place right now. Yes, we have this war going on
effectively between Israel and Iran.
If you were in power now, there's AG 7 summit going on.
If you were there, what would you be saying?
You know, I think that even the most complex of international
(32:20):
diplomacy can sometimes come down to very simple concepts.
And I think most people understand that when children
are the casualties of warfare, then that's the moment that
actually the complete should become simple.
The war needs to end and we needto be able to accept that two
(32:41):
truths can be can be held at thesame time.
That what happened on October 7th was wrong and that what is
happening now in the aftermath is also wrong.
That is what I hope that leadersaround the table have their eye
to the the complexities, the thedepth of the history all held.
(33:02):
But keeping in mind the devastation that we now see
raped, particularly on children,I mean children are.
Always the victims of war, aren't they?
Of every war, I mean. So there's nothing unique about
that right now. It's just on our screens in a
very, very distressing way. It is and.
That the additional layer of that is if we want to restore
people's sense of humanity and belief and multilateral
(33:23):
institutions and the ability of diplomacy and politics to solve
problems, that would be a good place to start.
Do you think that's? Possible, given how much erosion
of the UN, particularly by Donald Trump and Benjamin
Netanyahu, there's been. Well, I have not given.
Up my expectation. And and and.
Is there fuel in your tank now? Yeah, I guess.
It's you've had tons of time. To refuel, haven't you?
(33:44):
Because people wonder whether you fancy a global role?
Oh no, I. Look, my I see very much at the
moment, people ask me a lot about whether I go back into
politics in New Zealand and the answer for me is no, because I
made that decision to leave now.Now I enjoy things like my I
have a fellowship on empathetic leadership.
I enjoy the role of supporting others who are still there,
(34:05):
improving that. There is a place in politics for
kindness and empathy. UN Secretary.
General Oh God. Why would you pitch it?
Well, you're the one who. Believes in international
institutions. I do.
I do it. Doesn't mean that I have to be
the one to do it. Jacinda Ardern, thank you very
much indeed. Thank you.
Thank you for sharing your way to change the world.
That's it for this week. Until next time, bye bye.
There is deep financial insecurity and there are
multiple ways to respond to that.
As politicians, we have seen currently those who are reaching
for the old tools blame, fear, othering, and they have
attracted voters. So what do we do?
Two things, our politics and oursystems, have to be responsive
to people's needs. COVID is a really interesting
(00:21):
section in the book I think. Did the anger surprise you?
It worried me deeply and it saddened me.
We have this war going on effectively between Israel and
Iran. If you were in power now, what
would you be saying? When children are the casualties
of warfare, the complete should become simple.
The war needs to end. Hello and welcome to Ways to
(00:47):
Change the World. I'm Krishna Girimurthy, and this
is the podcast in which we talk to extraordinary people about
the big ideas in their lives andthe events that have helped
shape them. My guest today is the most
globally famous and lauded New Zealand Prime Minister of modern
times, Jacinda Ardern. Her international profile began
with her being the world's youngest head of government at
37, who within months had a babyand took it all in her stride.
(01:10):
But it was her response to the horrific terrorist attack on
mosques in Christchurch that gave her hero status amongst
progressives around the world, embracing the Muslim community
in New Zealand and passing strict gun laws in response.
Her six years as Prime Minister also meant dealing with the
COVID pandemic and the fury and conspiracy theories around
lockdowns and vaccines that camewith it, many of which targeted
(01:32):
her personally. And then in January 2023, almost
as suddenly as she had arrived on the global stage, she stood
down. Her book, A Different Kind of
Power, is perhaps the most sensitive and candid account of
a leader you could ask for, framed around her desire to be
remembered for her kindness. Jacinda, welcome.
Thank you very much. If you could change the world in
(01:52):
any way, how would you change it?
I would try to ensure that we had more people in political
leadership who valued kindness and empathy in their leadership.
And I think that there are leaders out there like that, but
there's not a lot of incentivismpolitics currently to put those
styles of leadership on display.I mean, kindness is an odd
(02:14):
political ambition to talk aboutit is in in these days.
Why? Why was that in your mind so
early on? You know, I, I, I remember just
thinking about the things that Ivalued as a person.
And I think actually, when you, when you ask people about the
things that, for instance, they wish to teach their children as
character traits, the things that you really want to be
highly prized as a parent, You know, you'll probably list off
(02:36):
things like curiosity, generosity, bravery and courage.
But but kindness is so often in that list as well.
But sometimes we've or somehow we've created a separation
around the things we we value inour homes and our daily lives
and what we expect in our leaders.
For me in New Zealand, kindness became an important value, not
(02:59):
just in what we did, but how we did it.
I had a concern that especially if you'd spent nine years in
opposition as we had, that people start to see you as
relentlessly negative, dogmatic,perhaps not focused on the
issues that are important to you.
So kindness became a value framefor the way that we wanted to do
(03:19):
politics as well. So what did that mean for
policy, the way you would look at things?
Well, two things, like in reallypractical terms, I mean, we've
got a Westminster style of, of government, so it's easier.
It's oppositional, it's adversarial.
It means that the debating chamber is like a, you know,
it's like a Bullring is a, it's,it's, you know, it's quite
feisty. There's, you know, a lot of
(03:41):
heckling. And look, I was never going to
change the traditions, but from the moment that we started our
campaign, I said, even though we're opposition, we will we
will be positive in our campaign.
We'll talk about ideas about change, but really importantly,
we will not attack other politicians personally.
So for example, if there was ever a scandal or anything that
(04:01):
personally affected some other member of another party, we
wouldn't engage in it. It wasn't for us, it was for
them, it was for their leadership team.
And then when it came to policy,it's it's simply people centric
policy making and ensuring as well that you're not just you're
not being performative if there is a crisis, if there is a
(04:22):
tragedy, that your empathy, yourhuman approach was also followed
through with with action I. Mean if you if you don't attack
your, your, your opposite numbers on those sorts of
scandals, then you're giving away a political opportunity to
some degree. I mean, when you say our system
(04:42):
doesn't incentivize that kind ofbehaviour, kindness, what do you
mean? What's wrong with it?
Well, first of all, I'd say thatit's important to always hold to
account your political opposition on their ideas and
their policies. You never give that away.
That's of course important to have a good contest of ideas,
but that doesn't mean that we have to succumb to the idea of
personally attacking individuals, bringing their
families in or plowing into whatmight be personal scandal that
(05:06):
that there has in the past been codes of that nature and
politics, but they've they've ebbed away over time.
And secondly, the idea of this, what are the incentives for
politicians? I mean, for the most part, of
course, politicians are successful if people vote for
them. People vote for them if they
first and foremost have name recognition and your old
measures for that of whether or not your constituents will know
(05:27):
who you are is whether or not you have coverage is whether or
not you're in the headlines or you've made the news or a story
of the day. Increasingly, and this is no
one's fault, it's the environment we're in.
In a commercialized environment,people click on and read those
things that bring out rage or anger or disbelief, Less likely
(05:48):
to click on those things where apolitician has, you know,
drafted a bill that's of you. So come up with a policy I do or
working on consensus with an opposition member of Parliament.
And yet that is ultimately, well, I still believe voters are
looking for. It's just not what they're
seeing. And that's why I think we have a
disillusionment with politics. What's covered is not
(06:09):
necessarily what is happening day in, day out in our politics.
I mean, it's not, it's not an appealing world is the truth, is
it? It's, you know, we don't get the
best people going into politics.Well, we've got to think about
what whether or we have a branding problem and you know, I
knew when I was there people always interested or why you
were there. Politics is though, at its heart
(06:29):
it's still a noble act of publicservice, but that's not what
people see on the label anymore.So I do think we need to do some
work to reclaim that. It's a privileged position.
What other places can you affectgenuine change and solve
problems that you know might be incredibly confronting for your
communities and see the difference that you make in your
day-to-day job. That's incredible.
(06:51):
We want the best people for their job.
I mean, it's fashionable to think that you came out of
nowhere. Obviously you didn't.
You'd been at it for years and years, and you were in
opposition for a long time, yes.How did you hold on to your
idealism? I think in a world of sort of
nasty politics. I, I think in a, in a way, I
just gave up on the idea of being successful.
(07:12):
And, and I think when you lack abit of that personal ambition,
it helps because, you know, you do hold on to a, a set of ideas
about the way you want to do things and accept that that
might mean that you're not particularly successful.
I'd like to think though, that the lesson from and by I was not
by any means a perfect politician at all.
But I do hope that one lesson could be that if you are driven
(07:35):
by the ideas of empathetic leadership, if you do value
things like kindness and you aretotally focused on these acts of
public service, there is a placefor you and you can succeed.
I managed. I had the opportunity to test
whether or not the public would vote for those values, and they
did. I think we should put that to
the test more often. So when you go and talk to young
(07:56):
people about why they should go into public service and they
look around the world and they see, you know, angry populists
doing really, really well, what do you say to them about why you
should? Yeah.
I think we need to dig a little deeper into that.
I mean, one of the things problems we have is this is a
bit self fulfilling at the moment.
(08:16):
Edelman do a a global survey of trust and confidence and what
they're finding at the moment isover 60% of people feel
grievance. They feel grievance towards
politics, but they also increasingly feel grievance
towards the private sector as well.
And that sense of grievance means that they don't feel that
their problems are being answered or issues responded to.
And I think you can see some of the patterns around that. 1/3 of
(08:39):
people don't think the next generation will be better off
than they did. And that's something
historically you've looked to asan indicator for politics.
There is deep financial insecurity, I think out there
off the back of the the shock ofa global pandemic.
And there are multiple ways to respond to that.
As politicians, we have seen currently those who are reaching
(09:01):
for the old tools blame, fear othering those.
Those ideas are the some of the oldest political tricks in the
book. And they have attracted voters.
I don't think always because they totally align on every
ideology. I don't think that people voting
for that means that, you know, everyone favours far right
(09:22):
ideology. But they are feeling that sense
of grievance from the old system.
So what do we do? Two things, our politics and our
systems have to be responsive topeople's needs.
It might be that we need to dig into whether or not our
electoral systems are meeting their needs, whether they feel
their vote is counting and secondly, we have to get better
(09:43):
at delivering, particularly in the space of financial
insecurity. So So how do you rate your own
delivery? There were areas absolutely
where we were struggling to keepup with, for instance, the huge
cost of living impacts that followed COVID.
Absolutely that was tough. And I think you see that in many
(10:05):
Western liberal democracies. Those governments who not just
governed through COVID, but governed in the aftermath of
COVID have struggled with that. But that says to me that some of
the critical things you need in those periods are a good
financial safety net. We certainly tried to increase
the value of ours. You need constant lifelong
access to education in a changeable environment with
(10:27):
these rapid technological change, and you need good access
to the basics in life like healthcare on all three of those
measures. You look to a society like the
United States is people often feel this fragility in those
areas. And, and do you think our
systems, our political systems also make it harder to deliver?
I think, look, I, I think there's a couple of things
(10:49):
going, going on. I think people have an
expectation of quick delivery and that's not unreasonable.
But the scale of change that sort, sometimes our systems
aren't always able to keep up. You require, for instance, good,
good infrastructure in your public service, but we go
through a yo yoing where one government will break that down,
reduce down their core public service and the the expertise
(11:13):
that exists within it, and the next government will spend years
rebuilding it. So there are some things that
become harder to deliver on. The second point I'd make is
many Western liberal democracieshave struggled with the
provision of things like housing, most of which have a
multitude of issues affecting the delivery, whether it's sits
within sits within resource consenting or the role of the
(11:36):
private sector complex. But when it comes to the nuts
and bolts, voters just want decent affordable housing and
many of us have struggled with that too.
Yes, I. Mean these are the two things
this government here is struggling, you know,
desperately trying to get thingsback up to speed in their terms
means you look at it and think, well, you don't want to do it.
(11:58):
I'm very, I'm very cautious about ever commenting on anyone
else's domestic politics becausefirst of all, I'm not embedded
in it and, you know, don't have the the insight required to make
such, but. These are the same issues or.
What we'll see is there is a consistency of issue, but I'm
really interested in the likes of user Klein and those who
speak of this notion of abundance.
(12:19):
But I think the notion of the, you know, the importance but
difficulty of swift delivery in an environment where people not
unfairly have have expectations of the politicians in their
systems. In terms of your values, I mean
you, you, you. You talk about your childhood in
the book. Daughter of a policeman.
(12:39):
Yeah. A Mormon family.
Yeah. Is is that where the values come
from? No.
I think so. I mean, when you, when I came to
write the memoir and it's not I,I'd like to think it's not a
normal political memoir. It's a story, really of if you
don't expect to be a leader, howdoes that happen?
And I think there's lots of things that can lead you into a
(13:01):
life of politics. And I try to just list what I
think might be some of mine. Well, not list them, but just
share insights into them. My father was a policeman.
I was raised in a Mormon family.I had family members who cared
deeply about politics. All of those things may have
played out, but so too might have just been the places I
lived. What, what do you think, what
(13:22):
was unique about, I mean your childhood in New Zealand though
is, is, you know, New Zealand's a very different place to, to,
to, to, you know, urban Britain.What do you think you get from
that kind of upbringing that is different in terms of your
outlook? Do, you know, I think the fact
(13:43):
that I grew up with two female prime ministers before me made
that I never grew up believing that my gender would get in the
way of me having No, I did not. What I did think though, was
that my personality absolutely would get in the way.
And by that, I mean, you know, Ihad a bit of a confidence gap.
You know, you might call it imposter syndrome.
I was very thin skinned. I worried about the world.
(14:06):
All of those things that you think wouldn't give you enough
resilience for, for politics. But the difference for me in New
Zealand is that I think, you know, we're not a hierarchical
place. We are egalitarian.
We are, we have an accessible democracy and that is like to
think that other places will have elements of that.
But that is something that's very pronounced I think in New
(14:28):
Zealand. So I could go from being amongst
the first of my family to go to university to also being Prime
Minister. I mean, you end up concluding it
in the book effectively that impostor syndrome, insecurity,
all of those things are or can be strengths.
Absolutely. And we don't talk about them in
that way. And that was one of the reasons
I wanted to write the book. Just just unpack it.
(14:48):
What I mean, Why why? Why is it good?
Well, that, that those, you know, those character traits
which we've been taught to believe are flaws, they don't
sit there in isolation. You will do something to try and
compensate for it. And in my experience, that meant
additional preparation, always anticipating risk, bringing in
experts, advisors, humility. And I think actually when you
(15:11):
face a crisis, like for instance, say COVID, you, you
want experts to be around the table.
You want leaders seeking out thebest possible advice.
And we probably want a bit of humility too.
So I think the trick is seeing those elements as a strengthened
leadership and trying to not allow something like imposter
(15:33):
syndrome to overwhelm you or hold you back from taking on
opportunities. And Covid's a really interesting
section in the book, I think. And, you know, you describe how
you had to sort of wrestle with to what extent you level with
the public. Yeah, there was, there was a
really difficult period that we had in COVID.
There was almost COVID in two parts, the part before the
vaccines and the part after whenwe were in roll out of the
(15:54):
vaccines. And when Delta came into New
Zealand, it was a very difficultperiod where it looked like
unlike before we weren't we weren't going to be able to get
rid of it. And top of my mind all the way
through was these dual, these dual goals of saving people's
lives, but also bringing people with us.
And whilst we saved an estimated20,000 lives and we had fewer
(16:19):
days in lockdown than most countries, I didn't manage to
keep everyone together. And so I, I spent a bit of time
trying to reflect on that in thebook I.
Mean would it ever have been possible given the world we're
now in and conspiracy theories and social media?
And, and it's something I grapple with as well, because I
think no country had an experience in isolation.
(16:43):
And we see, I think, through ourexperience, just how connected
we are, not just at a practical level in the way that this
pandemic moved through the world, but the way ideas, the
way information, the way disinformation moves through the
world. And it's something we have to
come to terms with, particularlyif we want to ensure that our
democracies remain healthy and that we learn again, how to have
(17:05):
good robust debate with one another, healthy protest, the
engagement that we're used to without it turning to to
violence. Did did the anger surprise you?
Did it surprise me? I think it worried me deeply and
it saddened me. I'm not sure at that point
whether I would have considered a complete surprise because
(17:25):
there was some build up to that.You saw it brewing.
You could feel the sentiment. And of course, we weren't alone
in it. I mean, I, I, I had a old school
friend who had moved to New Zealand at the time.
Who started sending me these furious messages about how her
life had been ruined by you. And, and I remember being
(17:47):
surprised by it, thinking there's something weird going on
here, you know? And it's not surprising,
obviously, that conspiracy theories took hold, but there
was a assured, A sureness aroundit amongst those people.
They were absolutely. Because the thing about people
taking the decisions, I suppose you were wrestling with what the
(18:08):
right thing to do was, and you weren't really sure.
People on the other side were absolutely, 100% sure that they
were right. Well, to be clear, the thing I
was very clear on was the right thing to do was to try and
preserve life, was to try and ensure that we we knew something
would make a difference, to savelives that we had.
We were very clear minded about that.
You know, where it became difficult was, of course, at the
(18:29):
point we were in the midst of both rolling out a vaccination
while scrabbling with how we transitioned into a world where
COVID was in our community, which was always going to be an
endpoint. That transition was hard, The
experience that you relay. I mean, it wasn't the majority
of New Zealanders, but it did exist.
That sentiment did exist for some.
(18:50):
And the reflection for me is notto sit and say that there wasn't
a contribution of government policy to the way people felt.
We have to take accountability for that.
But let's also recognize that some of that was happening then
for public servants. Some people with high profiles
and medicine and science experienced that anger towards
them as well and globally, not just in New Zealand.
(19:14):
I looked abroad and suddenly realized that we this is not
isolated and that therefore means that there isn't a
challenge that sits well beyond just a singular time in office
and a singular leader. What was it frightening for you
personally when you got threats or threats towards your family?
And not to trivialize this, not to trivialize this, but
increasingly that is the world for politicians.
(19:35):
And that does not mean that thatis OK, but it does mean that I
don't consider myself a special case.
But how did how did you feel about it when, when you're
getting death threats or threatsof violence towards your family,
not just towards you, You know, what do you think when you're
sitting there in a position of power?
I think I have a job to do and Ido it you.
(19:57):
Just ignore it. You can't ignore it, OK?
Well, if if you dwell on it, then what?
You know, you have a job to do, you're elected to do it.
And I was very clear eyed in that.
I think again as well, yeah, I do consider myself very, you
know, an empathetic leader, but that does not mean that I
coexist with frailty. I consider myself resilient
(20:19):
because I'm so clear eyed on what I feel is important.
And my job was one of service, so I remain pretty focused on
that. Let's just go back to
Christchurch because I think that's where I think the world
suddenly saw you as something different and where empathy as a
leader was really noticed. You you seem to know exactly how
(20:44):
to respond immediately. Was it, was it, was it an
instinctive response? Yeah, I, I.
Think that's probably the only way to describe it, but I also
would say that it was also the way you saw New Zealanders
respond. So I, I very much felt like I
was part of what was a nationwide response, not
necessarily one that I singularly determined.
(21:05):
That was New Zealanders pushed back on what was ultimately the
goal of a white supremacist to try and cede hate and division.
They clearly rejected that and Ihappened to absolutely share
their view and and I hope and inmy own way lead on that too.
Things like. Wearing a a head covering.
(21:27):
I mean, again, was that, did youthink about that or did you just
do it? Not really.
I remember thinking, I'm going down to Christchurch, I'll be
amongst the community. This is a, a, a practice it
feels, you know, instinctively it felt to me solely as the, as
the most respectful thing I could do at in a moment in time
that was, you know, it was a targeted attack against the
(21:51):
Muslim community. It was their grief that they
were carrying. It was their family.
It was their loved ones that hadbeen lost.
And so for me it was, it was just the natural thing to do in
terms of the. International response.
You famously spoke to Donald Trump.
Just tell us about that interaction, what you wanted
(22:13):
from him and what you got. I don't remember.
Particularly having an an agenda, one of the things that
happens in the aftermath of events like this, as leaders do
reach out, they share their grief, they offer assistance.
And so when that opportunity came from the American
president, what was there anything the United States can
(22:34):
do for you? I remember just thinking, well,
actually right now, just love and support for for all Muslim
communities. That was that was felt to me
like the most important thing that anyone could do at that at
that time. You didn't get that.
Well, that's. Not for me to judge, that would
be for the Muslim community to judge, but you.
But. You, I mean you must have
(22:54):
noticed that the reaction was not well at that.
Point in time. The one you wanted, I mean.
Presumably you didn't think thatyou would get that keeping in
mind. That at that point in time,
there was already what was coined a Muslim ban in the
United States when it came to torefugees.
So that was already in place when I made that comment.
What did that tell you about him?
(23:16):
Look, ultimately he obviously took a very particular view on
immigration policy, which obviously would be at odds with
my perspective, but I don't think that will be news to
anyone. No, But I.
Mean we're seeing it again now so and you live in you live in
America now you live in Boston Ithink what we're.
Seeing is a form of leadership that is not unique to 1 country.
(23:37):
I think we're seeing it in a number of different quarters
now. And, and as I say, you know,
when we see deep financial insecurity and, and population
seeking answers, politicians often will, you know, seek to
blame or weaponize fear. And we do see that.
We see particular communities being targeted.
And again, as I say, not just one country, but many adopting
(24:00):
that approach. I do not believe that will
ultimately offer for voters the answers that they're looking
for. And so my hope is that over
time, we will have politicians ready with the policy responses
that voters seek. I mean you, you now have.
A position at Harvard University, which is obviously
being targeted by the administration.
I mean, do you know, for example, whether you're whether
you're included in their foreignban?
(24:20):
Yeah, here I would say. That look, I am, I am a, you
know, a fellow. I'm not faculty.
I'm not at the heart of these issues.
And, you know, my time at Harvard has allowed me, you
know, the biggest thing for me is that it allowed me the time
to sit, reflect, learn from students and maintain my
optimism even in this moment of time in time.
(24:43):
And my optimism comes from the young people that I spend time
with that in spite of what is occurring around them, they hold
on to the fact that they have a role to play regardless of
whether or not they see their values being reflected in any
current administration. I mean optimism.
Right now, if you're, I mean, ifyou're a, if you're a foreign
student at Harvard, it's pretty hard, isn't it?
(25:03):
I'd imagine not for from. What I've seen that's still
there. Really.
Yes. Yeah.
In In what? Form.
I mean, I think you know what? What, what?
What can you be? Optimistic about in that
situation given everything that's going on around you.
My interpretation. Of optimism is that it is not
naivety, it's expectation. It's an expectation and belief
that leaders should be and will do better.
(25:24):
And I think the moment that we lose that optimism is the moment
we tip into indifference. If I saw indifference, I think I
would be much more worried, but I don't.
Do you think there are enough people, though, who have that
expectation? I do, of their politicians?
Because, I mean, a lot of peopleare perhaps not indifferent, but
looking the other way a lot of the time.
I think The thing is. Coming back again to what some
(25:46):
of the research and insights is telling us, if we know that 60%
of people hold some grievance, that still tells us they have an
expectation that politics is there to serve them in some way.
I think the worrying thing is that 4 out of 10 people believe
hostile acts are justified in this current environment.
We do need to make sure that we're being responsive, and we
also need to make sure that we cultivate an environment where
(26:07):
people do no longer believe thatit's acceptable to engage in
those hostile acts, and instead find ways to engage in their
democracies where they see them being responsive and they feel
that they're being reflective oftheir needs.
What did you learn? From winning the election midway
through your time as as Prime Minister, when you were going
(26:28):
through this very, very difficult time in COVID, Labour
hadn't won a majority for a longtime.
Well, no one had. Since MMP had come in in 1996.
Yeah, exactly. And and suddenly, despite all
this controversy, you you take Labour to an unprecedented
victory. Yeah, well, actually the.
COVID approach, as I say, was a COVID approach of too hard.
It's a really difficult period came later in COVID that yeah,
(26:50):
it was, it was, you know, widelysupported at that time.
And so I saw it as that victory.I try and describe it in the
book. It didn't feel like a this
straight normal victory. I I didn't feel like
celebrating. For me it was a request from New
Zealanders to keep going, just to keep doing my job and at that
(27:14):
time it was a very hard job. How?
How long did? You think the instructions keep
going lasted? Well, I mean, ultimately, when
I, when I decided it was time togo, there was not anything
particularly spicy having in thephenolitical agenda, you know,
COVID and, and the disruption around it.
And, you know, was a a year behind us was important to me
(27:36):
actually, that we were in relatively calm waters when I
made the decision only a few points shy of where we were when
we were elected. But for me, the question was, is
it the right thing to do to run again?
Do I have enough in the tank? And the answer for me was not if
I want to be the kind of leader I think New Zealand deserves.
I mean you, you talk a little. Bit about how you you'd started
(27:56):
losing a bit of patience, yeah, I felt.
I felt a bit more defensive and that was a something I really
valued in leadership. Yeah, I talk a little bit about
whether or not my patience was waning a bit.
All of those things that I thought were important, I was I
was worrying about. Was that a sort?
Of symptom of tiredness. Or, well, I do, I did.
Think I I could have kept going.I believe that it was not
(28:19):
burnout per SE, but it was this idea of whether there was enough
in reserve. And when you're in leadership
like that, we have to expect theunexpected.
You need something in reserve. I mean a a lot.
Of the book is about you as a mother and the time that you
were able to spend and weren't able to spend with your
daughter. I mean, what, what did you, you
(28:42):
know, what, what did you end up concluding about that?
You know, because obviously you had all the sort of the, the
skepticism and the, the sort of the impertinent questions before
about, you know, what were you planning to do and were you
going to be a mum and all the rest of it.
You do it. And then a few years in, I
suppose how your daughter was 5 when you when you stepped down,
(29:04):
what did you conclude about being a woman in your position
as a young mother and how, how how easy it is and how easy it
should be? I think that there are women all
over the world juggling caregiving roles and significant
leadership or, or roles outside of the outside of their
(29:27):
caregiving. And I don't think I need to
prove they can, that you can do it all, because they already do.
But the point that I would rather try and make is they
shouldn't be expected to do it alone.
I was very privileged that I hadAI, had a support network, and I
believe all women should have that support network.
And the second thing I learned was that actually, even if
(29:49):
you're doing a job like leading a country, you still feel like
you should be with your childrenall of the time.
And I don't know that there's any job that stops you feeling
that way. And maybe there's some comfort
in knowing that, but maybe we should also give ourselves some
grace to want the same things for ourselves and our lives that
we actually want for our children.
(30:09):
I mean you. You had a support network of
both your your your husband and your your parents.
Obviously not everybody has that.
No, not everyone. Does So what?
What needs? To happen for for people who
don't have that governments. Have a role to play.
You know, some of the things we did, we extended paid parental
leave to six months, we increased the payments for sole
parents, we increased child's care subsidies.
(30:30):
We put in place a universal takes credit for the first year
of a child's life. You know, our goal was to try
and give families more choices, not a particular, you know,
position on whether you should be at home or whether you should
be in work. We instead wanted families to
have more choices. And it was a work in progress.
But that's the kind of role I believe government also has to
(30:50):
play. You, you, you.
You bring it round at the end tocalling a journalist, funnily
enough, a journalist who you'd spoken to in the car on the way.
Just tell us that story. I mean, it's a funny thing to
do, I suppose, to call the journalist on their way to your
being announced. Well, on the way ahead, well,
just. Because on the way.
To being sworn in. It was quite an unusual thing to
(31:12):
be interviewed in a car on the way to be sworn in to being
Prime Minister. And quite a few people had
commented to me that it felt like a really interesting time
capsule of sorts because while we were having the conversation,
it was, well, what kind of government do you want to be,
you know, and where are you now?What's your location?
And so it was an observational, an interesting observational
(31:35):
interview. So as I drove to resign, I felt
like maybe it would be an interesting observational piece
to just share that moment with that same journalist, and not
particularly for any purpose other than just to record the
moment. Just while you're with us, can I
ask you, and I don't know whether you want to talk about
(31:57):
this or not, but I mean, the world is in a very, very
difficult place right now. Yes, we have this war going on
effectively between Israel and Iran.
If you were in power now, there's AG 7 summit going on.
If you were there, what would you be saying?
You know, I think that even the most complex of international
(32:20):
diplomacy can sometimes come down to very simple concepts.
And I think most people understand that when children
are the casualties of warfare, then that's the moment that
actually the complete should become simple.
The war needs to end and we needto be able to accept that two
(32:41):
truths can be can be held at thesame time.
That what happened on October 7th was wrong and that what is
happening now in the aftermath is also wrong.
That is what I hope that leadersaround the table have their eye
to the the complexities, the thedepth of the history all held.
(33:02):
But keeping in mind the devastation that we now see
raped, particularly on children,I mean children are.
Always the victims of war, aren't they?
Of every war, I mean. So there's nothing unique about
that right now. It's just on our screens in a
very, very distressing way. It is and.
That the additional layer of that is if we want to restore
people's sense of humanity and belief and multilateral
(33:23):
institutions and the ability of diplomacy and politics to solve
problems, that would be a good place to start.
Do you think that's? Possible, given how much erosion
of the UN, particularly by Donald Trump and Benjamin
Netanyahu, there's been. Well, I have not given.
Up my expectation. And and and.
Is there fuel in your tank now? Yeah, I guess.
It's you've had tons of time. To refuel, haven't you?
(33:44):
Because people wonder whether you fancy a global role?
Oh no, I. Look, my I see very much at the
moment, people ask me a lot about whether I go back into
politics in New Zealand and the answer for me is no, because I
made that decision to leave now.Now I enjoy things like my I
have a fellowship on empathetic leadership.
I enjoy the role of supporting others who are still there,
(34:05):
improving that. There is a place in politics for
kindness and empathy. UN Secretary.
General Oh God. Why would you pitch it?
Well, you're the one who. Believes in international
institutions. I do.
I do it. Doesn't mean that I have to be
the one to do it. Jacinda Ardern, thank you very
much indeed. Thank you.
Thank you for sharing your way to change the world.
That's it for this week. Until next time, bye bye.
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