April 30, 2025 • 23 mins
Newly appointed National Theatre Director Indhu Rubasingham becomes the first woman and person of colour to lead the theatre in it's 60 year history.
She sat down with Krishnan Guru-Murthy to discuss art, diversity and censorship and taking on her 'dream job.'
Produced by Holly Snelling and Vik Patel.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Hello and welcome to Ways to Change the World.
I'm Christian Gary Murphy and this is the podcast in which we
talk to extraordinary people about the big ideas in their
lives and the events that have helped shape them.
We're on location today at the National Theatre because my
guest is the new director and CoCEO of the National Theatre,
Indu Ruba Singer, and she's justannounced her first season of
(00:21):
productions. It's very varied and quite
exciting. Indu welcomes the podcast.
Thank you. Hi.
So you've got an empty stage. How are you going to change the
world with it? What?
It's an incredible opportunity, The stage is an incredible
opportunity and the National is an incredible platform.
What I love about theatre is that it's a collective
experience. It brings people together and
brings people together to hopefully empathise and engage
(00:45):
and engage in debate as well as being entertained.
And that's what I think when yousay how do you change the world
is if we can just become more empathetic to the other and to
different voices and different perspectives.
You you've run theatres before, but the National is different,
isn't it? Oh, it's hugely different, yes.
Just explain why. Why is the national difference?
(01:08):
It sits on the South Bank, on the on the river between.
I mean physically sits between the Houses of Parliament and
Saint Paul's Cathedral, so literally sits between church
and state. So therefore sort of as a
metaphor is important for national discourse, so.
How are you doing it with your first programme?
(01:29):
It's it's about having as variedA programme as possible.
So like what I really love aboutthe first two shows I'm doing,
I'm doing Shakespeare. Hamlet and Hamlet opened this
theatre in 1963, so it's honouring the history.
And then I'm doing a play in theOlivier Theatre, our biggest
space, and it's The Buckeye by Euripides and it's this play
about chaos and order and that collision.
(01:52):
It's been adapted by Nima Talagani and it's his debut
play. So I'm putting on a debut play
to open the season. Is that a risk?
Theatre's always about taking risk because we shouldn't know
what is going if if we can predict what's going to happen,
then the most exciting things wemay miss.
So I mean he's. A very well known actor now,
(02:12):
yes, but but as a playwright, asyou say, this is I mean, it's a
big. It's a big debut.
It's a big debut, yeah. So how?
Important Is it to sort of sprinkle that Stardust?
It's always going to be about quality.
Paul Moscow is going to be in two productions, a quality
leading actor and a, and a brilliant theatre actor.
And Leslie Manville, you know, is, is, is one of our great
(02:35):
British actors of all time. So it's, it's, it's, they want
to play at the Nationals. So it's, it's, it's, it's
important to be bringing them inas well as people making their
debuts. There are a number of actors
making their debuts as well. So what?
What? What do you?
I mean, you said that, you know that the National is about, you
know, bringing in as many voicesas you as you can.
I mean, more broadly, in 2025, what is theatre for in a world
(03:01):
in which we're all staring at screens?
Oh, I well, theatre that that live act of storytelling is you
can't you can't replicate it in any other in any other form.
I think that that shared experience, that collective
experience of being with people,watching and engaging in a live
(03:22):
performance, it's, it's an experience that people are
craving. It's not like, you know, in the
last year ticket sales are huge.You know, they have really
jumped. The West End is doing really
well. We're in a really buoyant.
Sort of climate. Why do you think that is?
Because people, people want the live experience.
People want it, want to have that, you know, Yes.
What is different about the liveexperience that we perhaps
(03:45):
didn't appreciate before we wereall spending there was a day
staring at the screen. It's it's why do we want to see
Beyoncé in concert? You there's something about that
live that would be well, I love about theatre.
It's like a secular church. So it's it brings people
together. It brings us watching the actor
on stage who's transforming us, who's telling a story, who's
(04:07):
acting like the the priest or the and, and we in in the most
amazing experience, we are transformed.
We are told the story. Something has changed.
We've understood something. We've gone on a collective
experience that that is amplified because it's shared.
When did you realise that that'swhat theatre is?
(04:28):
When I was 17 or 1616 or 17 and I saw The Normal Heart by Larry
Cramer at Nottingham Playhouse and it was the first time I'd
ever seen a political piece of theatre about, now about.
And it was about the AIDS crisisand it was about, and it was
such a, a passionate, angry play.
(04:49):
And I remember just just being moved to tears and it making me
right and making me think in a way that I hadn't, even though
we'd all known about it and we'dwatch the news or whatever it,
it viscerally hit me to make me understand something that that I
was so far removed in my little town in Mansfield.
And that that experience, that visceral experience of making me
(05:12):
understand what it was like was something that I don't think any
other form could have given me. So in this very noisy, bitter,
angry world that we're in at themoment, how does your slate
address those things? Because you might look at the
list and go, well, you know, it's quite traditional.
There's a bit of sort of, you know, Greek mythology, a bit of
Shakespeare, a bit of celebrity.Are you going to be hitting big
(05:35):
themes? Wow, there's a lot of new plays
in there because we didn't talk about and musicals.
And can I just go back and answer?
It's not it's it's it's what we've heard is 1 programme is,
but it's about what's going to keep coming.
And I think in this time of suchsuch turmoil and fear in the
(06:00):
world, it's the we we're going to need artists more than ever.
Artists are going to help us understand what's going on and
being able to give those those stories are going to be even
more relevant and important at with to help us understand the
chaos that we're that that we'rethat we're in.
How do you know? Because quite often now you'll
(06:21):
go to the theatre and you'll notice, you know, the, the
bigger themes around power or dictatorship or, you know, you
go and see the score with, you know, at the, at the haymarks at
the moment you suddenly go, oh, this is about Putin.
It's not really about King Frederick.
So are you, are you very conscious when you're putting
(06:42):
stuff on that you are actually addressing much bigger themes
and current themes? Yeah, not, not all the time.
You you do you programme for a variety of reasons, because you
know, you you have to entertain.We also have to have find a
place. All of it has to be
entertaining, you know, fundamentally.
And people have to come away. They want to go to theatre to
escape something as well as to engage in something.
(07:06):
The themes, you know, you theatre.
What we want in theatre has to reflect the world in some way or
refract the world in some way. And that could be because you're
telling a historic play, but it's it's, it's bringing in
resonance as as you mentioned, or we're absolutely, you know,
I'm commissioning what I call state of the world plays, plays
(07:26):
that really look at issues that are that are, are pertinent to
who who we are now and also. What do you mean by state of the
world play? Players that look at really big
issues about around identity, immigration, things that affect
the whole world as opposed to just this country.
And it could be around technology, it could be around
(07:49):
AI, all these things that we're all talking about that has got
much bigger global ramifications.
If you if you look across the pond, Donald Trump is having
quite a big impact on theatre. You know, he's taken over the
Kennedy Centre, he's become the chairman of it.
He's scrapped the board. He's effectively taking over the
(08:11):
slate of what they're going to be putting on.
What do you think of that? What I really love about here in
in England, in in Britain is, isthe arm's length principle and I
that the government has an arm'slength relationship to arts and
culture. So that no, no government, so
that so we get our funding comesthrough the Arts Council and so
(08:33):
it means that we're independent of any political party that
comes in. I think that's really important
to keep the independence of the artist alive and kicking.
Does it allow? I mean, does that mean that you
end up with a massive liberal bias in theatre?
What I think is really crucial in theatre is that we have as
(09:00):
many, we have as many polarised voices in there trying to have a
conversation. We need conversations, we need
bigger conversations. And I think that's what's
important about a National Theatre is that it represents as
many of those different voices. So it shouldn't be a great piece
of theatre, shouldn't be tellingyou what to think, It shouldn't
be going, it shouldn't be championing a particular
(09:23):
perspective. It should be provocative and
provoking questions and asking you to make for the answers, not
telling you the answers. That's what I think is really
exciting. But do you?
Think there is a liberal bias. I mean, I mean, surely there is,
isn't there? If you think about the kinds of
people who come into, I think theatre and theatre management
and the arts in general. I think, I think the role of the
(09:44):
artist is always going to stand outside, you know, outside
establishment outside, you know that that.
So there's going to be an anti establishment.
Bar so there's no, there's not, no, there's not, there's not
they're not necessary. But the, the role of the artist
is to be, to be observant and toto comment and to, to not, you
know, to, to be able to. That's why countries, I mean,
(10:06):
you know, when countries want tocontrol the dialogue and the
discourse, often it's the artists that get who are the
first, who are the 1st to go. Yes.
And what I mean, I mean, historically artists have always
relied on the patronage of people.
Exactly. And we still so it's it's always
it's it's a it's a tightrope. It's a really interesting
tightrope. It's not you can't be, you know,
(10:26):
some of our artists are the mostestablishment.
You know, how many oscers and ladies or you know, have been
knighted or you know, so it's they're absolutely part of the
establishment, but it's like standing inside one.
It's almost like they have a brilliant way of standing in one
foot in one camp and and outsideit.
How has Trump changed the conversation around what you're
doing here, do you think? You know, what's really, really
(10:49):
vital is how do, how do we maintain the freedom of
expression for artists? And how do we also, you know,
how do we make sure that artistsare protected and the risks are
allowed to be taken and that we are allowed to be the, the
discourse is the discourse is allowed to be critical that,
that, you know, that's what's really important to protect.
(11:11):
And, and I think seeing what's happening both in America and in
other parts of the world, it feels imperative that we protect
the artist's voice. Does it feel like a frightening
time? It feels, it feels like a really
important time to, it feels and it feels like a time of where
there's incredible responsibility and care needs to
(11:33):
be taken. It's, it's allowing artists and
stories to live and breathe and also make sure people don't self
censor, you know, so that we're not, we're, we're being
provocative and we're challenging as well as bringing
everyone in. It's also a time when there's a
lot of polarization and we want to and there's a lot of
(11:55):
separation and communities are being divided.
Every identity feels that they're under threat.
And how do we remove that sense of threat and actually find ways
of bringing us together? So I think it's an important.
Issue, I mean, he's he's sort ofbackers both in America and here
would say, you know, that the trouble is the arts is massively
(12:16):
liberal. There's a massive bias against
us. They, you know, they talk about
diversity, but they don't they don't talk about the stuff that
we talk about. And that's what we want to bring
to the arts as well. Have they got a point?
Absolutely. I mean like, you know, it's
it's, you know, you have to havea as as wide a sort of different
choices and perspectives as possible.
I don't totally agree that theirperspective isn't heard well,
(12:37):
you know. But, you know, if their
perspective on immigration is not really about trying to
understand the immigrant experience, but about looking at
immigrants as a threat to the nation, you know, and all of
that, is that something theatre should also look at?
I think it needs to look at bothsides of I think an argument
like why do we, you know, you can't be it it sorry, the threat
(13:01):
to immigration, the threat of immigration or the issue of
immigration lies in the complexity of the debate.
You know, it's not one or the other.
And actually it's getting into the complexity.
We live in a time of like we want sound bites and we want
immediate answers and we don't want to go into the nuances of
of an an argument and the threatof a really good play or a good
(13:22):
story about immigration that really makes us that make that's
makes everyone want to come and see.
It has to express both sides or it has, you know, and that
actually actually most good plays I know has all those
different voices. And what I love about really,
you know, even even more recently, like in father in the
assassin, people watch that playthinking it was a pro Gandhi
(13:45):
play or it was an anti Gandhi player.
A good play makes you doesn't tell you what to think and what
I did what one about Margaret Thatcher and you know the right
wing thought it was about it wasa brilliant play about Margaret
Thatcher and the left wing thought it was a brilliant play
anti Margaret Thatcher. That's what good theatre does.
It doesn't it goes into a complexity.
(14:06):
It isn't it isn't liberal into one side or you know that you
know it should be a multi layered faceted discussion and.
Can you bring in audiences here from, from different views or is
it, you know, is it, are we becoming so polarized that, you
know, people tend to go in tribes?
(14:28):
Can you see the stuff you're pushing on really bringing in
people from all sides? I mean, it's a good pitch, but
it's quite hard to deliver in reality, isn't?
It I don't think it is. I think you give a good story,
you give a good hook or whatever, whatever the reason,
whatever the hooks are. That's what's amazing about here
is like you get, you get people from around the country, around
(14:48):
the world that want to come intothese spaces and not from 1.
You know what, you know, you've got over 1000 seats to fill and
they sell out with the right kind of story.
You know, which we've got on dear England at the moment and
people who've never been to the theatre, football fans from
around the country are coming and you're watching fathers and
sons and people who love, you know.
(15:09):
So it's, it's how it's, it's what story you're telling that
brings them in. And that's what's great about
here is that it does the, you know, it's you, you, you build
it. They will come if it's the thing
that they want to come and see, you know, and.
When when you look at what's happening in America from a
National Theatre perspective, doyou have one eye on that
thinking? Oh, we're not that far away from
(15:30):
that, you know, from that here. You know, we, we could be
looking at a Nigel Farage government in five years time
with a very similar approach to these sorts of things, you know,
and a very, you know, and a pretty scathing critique of the
arts and what they regard as bias within it.
Listen, and like I said in so, you know, as I will fight
(15:53):
passionately, A, for the arm's length principle that that
that's really important, but B that arts isn't just about being
liberal or or not liberal, that arts is imperative to our
society, the culture, you know, and it's actually, it's the
right of every young person to have access to arts and cultural
(16:14):
subjects. And actually, and, and, and, and
also for a society that has equality of opportunity.
It's not, it isn't about partisan politics, it's about
expression, it's about community, it's about society
and it's about how we come together.
And that that that's what I would always fight for.
It's, it's it's we. So it's a society is a world as
(16:35):
a, as, as culture, right from the birth of dawn, we've, we've
always gathered to tell stories,to try and understand something.
And it's trying to understand whether it's something about
ourselves or something about our, the world we live in.
And that's, it's really important to fight for that.
And it's really important to challenge any cuts like and, and
(16:55):
reduction of that that's going into our education system.
If I, if I look at the names that you've put on your, your
first season, it's very much not, you know, the old white
public school establishment is, is, is that a sort of AI mean?
I'm assuming it's deliberate. It's not no, actually can I just
(17:18):
take that everyone is welcome and and I'm sure that, you know,
I, I don't want to name names because they're that it might be
insulting to call them old public school establishment, But
I think some of the people that you think of that are in that in
that season, But I it, it's about lots of talent and and
also talent that deserves to be part of the mainstream.
(17:41):
The phrase I've coined is the modern mainstream.
That, that, that, that's what I want.
This is that is like, I think all, you know, all different
types of stories and performers and staff deserve to be part of
the mainstream because our mainstream is a much more wider,
wider thing than the establishment you were talking
(18:02):
about. Our mainstream are the young,
young people in, in Lewisham or,or, or the people in in America
or the, the Chinese students or the, you know, our mainstream is
made-up of so many different communities that have a right to
this building the stories that we want to tell.
What, what, what have you learntalong the way before you got
(18:23):
here about that, You know, what's the?
Solution I I've learnt that people want to see a really,
really good story and you know, and it's not, you know, I think
sometimes we go, oh, we need to put, we need to put, we need to
tell this story for this community.
We need to tell this story for that community.
Actually, you tell a story that's well made and interesting
and about the human condition. It's for everybody.
(18:45):
And that that's what I'm really interested in put is how those
stories from a different perspective becomes part of the
the conversation. The other thing that's really
under attack at the moment is equity, diversity and inclusion,
or DEI. They do it the other way around
in America. You know how.
How important do you think it isfor institutions like this to
(19:08):
still try to address inequality and diversity?
I think it's the foundation of, of who we are and, and, and, and
what forget the terminology of, you know, the, the, because I, I
think that becomes provocative in itself.
And it's, it's being used as a, as a, as a, as a, a hammer on
certain things. And it's, and it's, and it's
(19:29):
being used to make other people feel disenfranchised.
So, you know, I think, I think equality of opportunity,
different voices, different audiences, different
perspectives is a, is a, is imperative for us to feel heard,
feel seen. And that includes, that includes
that that's, that's about everybody.
(19:50):
And the minute someone feels othered or outside is, is when
we're not, we're not being representative of a National
Theatre. Just explain what you mean by
how you think it's being used todisenfranchise people.
What do you mean by? That it's sorry, but I mean,
it's, it's, it's been. It's a good point.
I just want. You to yeah, it's been coined as
a negative. You know, if you talk about the
(20:11):
phrases, when is inclusion and diversity and equity bad words,
that isn't that the foundation of every society isn't does
that, doesn't that go back to, you know, and the founding
fathers of isn't that what democracy is about?
That everyone is included in being able to vote and decide
who governs us? So the reason I'm the reason
(20:31):
when we say EDI or it's being used where that's being banned,
I sort of like, that's why I'm saying it's being used as a tool
or being used to hammer, you know, none of those words are
bad and you know, and. And yet some people think it
excludes them. Yes, exactly.
So that's why because of how it's being used.
And I and I think that when you say about here the inclusion,
(20:52):
everyone needs to feel included.I mean, you had a pretty unusual
entry into this world, didn't you?
I suppose Well in the I. Mean, yeah, yeah, yeah, a bit.
Like me, you were expected to bea doctor and and then suddenly
you decided, oh, this is fun, let's do that instead.
(21:13):
Yeah, a lot. You know that.
That's it's it's quite difficultto do that, isn't it?
Tell me how how did you become atheatre director?
It, it was so my parents, my parents came over from Sri
Lanka, immigrants from Sri Lankaand I think their their their
their hope for family in the community was to be was to be a
(21:34):
a doctor or a lawyer and as. All good Asian.
Kids as all good Asian families.And the really annoying thing
was I was quite good at sciencesand I didn't want to be and
through a, a, a really random opportunity that was given at
school, I got access into a theatre and it just, there was
(21:56):
something about the world that Ifound really magical and kind of
extraordinary. So I just got a bit obsessed by
it. I was doing science A levels had
to wanted to do a drama degree. You needed English A level had
to finish those at A levels and get another A level in English
in order to go to, to go to university, sort of beg my
parents to let me go and do a drama degree.
And and then it just then slowlylike, and then, and then I
(22:20):
started my degree and felt like I wanted to follow in your
footsteps and become a journalist.
And then and then just by. We're about the same.
Age, I know I wasn't following my footsteps.
I know, but I was like, you know, I was I didn't, I didn't
mean it like that, but I was like, I was going to be like
you. I was going to you never know
what might have happened. But then, but then in my second
(22:41):
year, I, I made myself director plate.
I don't know why, but I made myself direct to play.
And that's when I felt like the the, the sort of the science
side of me and the arts side, the creative side sort of found
found a place and did everythingI could to try and understand
what that might mean as a profession.
And and so how, what, what wouldyou advise people now?
(23:04):
I really would advise people to follow their passion, you know,
because the, the job security oflike, oh, the stable job market,
we don't know how that's going to change with, with a, with the
global currents, with AI, all ofthose things.
So what you can do is be do whatyou really, really excites you,
What makes you passionate, what makes you get out of bed in the
(23:24):
morning. That's what I would really
advise young people to do. Indy Riversing and thank you
very much indeed. You can watch all of these
interviews on the Channel 4 NewsYouTube channel.
Our producer is Victoria Patel. Until next time, bye bye.
Hello and welcome to Ways to Change the World.
I'm Christian Gary Murphy and this is the podcast in which we
talk to extraordinary people about the big ideas in their
lives and the events that have helped shape them.
We're on location today at the National Theatre because my
guest is the new director and CoCEO of the National Theatre,
Indu Ruba Singer, and she's justannounced her first season of
(00:21):
productions. It's very varied and quite
exciting. Indu welcomes the podcast.
Thank you. Hi.
So you've got an empty stage. How are you going to change the
world with it? What?
It's an incredible opportunity, The stage is an incredible
opportunity and the National is an incredible platform.
What I love about theatre is that it's a collective
experience. It brings people together and
brings people together to hopefully empathise and engage
(00:45):
and engage in debate as well as being entertained.
And that's what I think when yousay how do you change the world
is if we can just become more empathetic to the other and to
different voices and different perspectives.
You you've run theatres before, but the National is different,
isn't it? Oh, it's hugely different, yes.
Just explain why. Why is the national difference?
(01:08):
It sits on the South Bank, on the on the river between.
I mean physically sits between the Houses of Parliament and
Saint Paul's Cathedral, so literally sits between church
and state. So therefore sort of as a
metaphor is important for national discourse, so.
How are you doing it with your first programme?
(01:29):
It's it's about having as variedA programme as possible.
So like what I really love aboutthe first two shows I'm doing,
I'm doing Shakespeare. Hamlet and Hamlet opened this
theatre in 1963, so it's honouring the history.
And then I'm doing a play in theOlivier Theatre, our biggest
space, and it's The Buckeye by Euripides and it's this play
about chaos and order and that collision.
(01:52):
It's been adapted by Nima Talagani and it's his debut
play. So I'm putting on a debut play
to open the season. Is that a risk?
Theatre's always about taking risk because we shouldn't know
what is going if if we can predict what's going to happen,
then the most exciting things wemay miss.
So I mean he's. A very well known actor now,
(02:12):
yes, but but as a playwright, asyou say, this is I mean, it's a
big. It's a big debut.
It's a big debut, yeah. So how?
Important Is it to sort of sprinkle that Stardust?
It's always going to be about quality.
Paul Moscow is going to be in two productions, a quality
leading actor and a, and a brilliant theatre actor.
And Leslie Manville, you know, is, is, is one of our great
(02:35):
British actors of all time. So it's, it's, it's, they want
to play at the Nationals. So it's, it's, it's, it's
important to be bringing them inas well as people making their
debuts. There are a number of actors
making their debuts as well. So what?
What? What do you?
I mean, you said that, you know that the National is about, you
know, bringing in as many voicesas you as you can.
I mean, more broadly, in 2025, what is theatre for in a world
(03:01):
in which we're all staring at screens?
Oh, I well, theatre that that live act of storytelling is you
can't you can't replicate it in any other in any other form.
I think that that shared experience, that collective
experience of being with people,watching and engaging in a live
(03:22):
performance, it's, it's an experience that people are
craving. It's not like, you know, in the
last year ticket sales are huge.You know, they have really
jumped. The West End is doing really
well. We're in a really buoyant.
Sort of climate. Why do you think that is?
Because people, people want the live experience.
People want it, want to have that, you know, Yes.
What is different about the liveexperience that we perhaps
(03:45):
didn't appreciate before we wereall spending there was a day
staring at the screen. It's it's why do we want to see
Beyoncé in concert? You there's something about that
live that would be well, I love about theatre.
It's like a secular church. So it's it brings people
together. It brings us watching the actor
on stage who's transforming us, who's telling a story, who's
(04:07):
acting like the the priest or the and, and we in in the most
amazing experience, we are transformed.
We are told the story. Something has changed.
We've understood something. We've gone on a collective
experience that that is amplified because it's shared.
When did you realise that that'swhat theatre is?
(04:28):
When I was 17 or 1616 or 17 and I saw The Normal Heart by Larry
Cramer at Nottingham Playhouse and it was the first time I'd
ever seen a political piece of theatre about, now about.
And it was about the AIDS crisisand it was about, and it was
such a, a passionate, angry play.
(04:49):
And I remember just just being moved to tears and it making me
right and making me think in a way that I hadn't, even though
we'd all known about it and we'dwatch the news or whatever it,
it viscerally hit me to make me understand something that that I
was so far removed in my little town in Mansfield.
And that that experience, that visceral experience of making me
(05:12):
understand what it was like was something that I don't think any
other form could have given me. So in this very noisy, bitter,
angry world that we're in at themoment, how does your slate
address those things? Because you might look at the
list and go, well, you know, it's quite traditional.
There's a bit of sort of, you know, Greek mythology, a bit of
Shakespeare, a bit of celebrity.Are you going to be hitting big
(05:35):
themes? Wow, there's a lot of new plays
in there because we didn't talk about and musicals.
And can I just go back and answer?
It's not it's it's it's what we've heard is 1 programme is,
but it's about what's going to keep coming.
And I think in this time of suchsuch turmoil and fear in the
(06:00):
world, it's the we we're going to need artists more than ever.
Artists are going to help us understand what's going on and
being able to give those those stories are going to be even
more relevant and important at with to help us understand the
chaos that we're that that we'rethat we're in.
How do you know? Because quite often now you'll
(06:21):
go to the theatre and you'll notice, you know, the, the
bigger themes around power or dictatorship or, you know, you
go and see the score with, you know, at the, at the haymarks at
the moment you suddenly go, oh, this is about Putin.
It's not really about King Frederick.
So are you, are you very conscious when you're putting
(06:42):
stuff on that you are actually addressing much bigger themes
and current themes? Yeah, not, not all the time.
You you do you programme for a variety of reasons, because you
know, you you have to entertain.We also have to have find a
place. All of it has to be
entertaining, you know, fundamentally.
And people have to come away. They want to go to theatre to
escape something as well as to engage in something.
(07:06):
The themes, you know, you theatre.
What we want in theatre has to reflect the world in some way or
refract the world in some way. And that could be because you're
telling a historic play, but it's it's, it's bringing in
resonance as as you mentioned, or we're absolutely, you know,
I'm commissioning what I call state of the world plays, plays
(07:26):
that really look at issues that are that are, are pertinent to
who who we are now and also. What do you mean by state of the
world play? Players that look at really big
issues about around identity, immigration, things that affect
the whole world as opposed to just this country.
And it could be around technology, it could be around
(07:49):
AI, all these things that we're all talking about that has got
much bigger global ramifications.
If you if you look across the pond, Donald Trump is having
quite a big impact on theatre. You know, he's taken over the
Kennedy Centre, he's become the chairman of it.
He's scrapped the board. He's effectively taking over the
(08:11):
slate of what they're going to be putting on.
What do you think of that? What I really love about here in
in England, in in Britain is, isthe arm's length principle and I
that the government has an arm'slength relationship to arts and
culture. So that no, no government, so
that so we get our funding comesthrough the Arts Council and so
(08:33):
it means that we're independent of any political party that
comes in. I think that's really important
to keep the independence of the artist alive and kicking.
Does it allow? I mean, does that mean that you
end up with a massive liberal bias in theatre?
What I think is really crucial in theatre is that we have as
(09:00):
many, we have as many polarised voices in there trying to have a
conversation. We need conversations, we need
bigger conversations. And I think that's what's
important about a National Theatre is that it represents as
many of those different voices. So it shouldn't be a great piece
of theatre, shouldn't be tellingyou what to think, It shouldn't
be going, it shouldn't be championing a particular
(09:23):
perspective. It should be provocative and
provoking questions and asking you to make for the answers, not
telling you the answers. That's what I think is really
exciting. But do you?
Think there is a liberal bias. I mean, I mean, surely there is,
isn't there? If you think about the kinds of
people who come into, I think theatre and theatre management
and the arts in general. I think, I think the role of the
(09:44):
artist is always going to stand outside, you know, outside
establishment outside, you know that that.
So there's going to be an anti establishment.
Bar so there's no, there's not, no, there's not, there's not
they're not necessary. But the, the role of the artist
is to be, to be observant and toto comment and to, to not, you
know, to, to be able to. That's why countries, I mean,
(10:06):
you know, when countries want tocontrol the dialogue and the
discourse, often it's the artists that get who are the
first, who are the 1st to go. Yes.
And what I mean, I mean, historically artists have always
relied on the patronage of people.
Exactly. And we still so it's it's always
it's it's a it's a tightrope. It's a really interesting
tightrope. It's not you can't be, you know,
(10:26):
some of our artists are the mostestablishment.
You know, how many oscers and ladies or you know, have been
knighted or you know, so it's they're absolutely part of the
establishment, but it's like standing inside one.
It's almost like they have a brilliant way of standing in one
foot in one camp and and outsideit.
How has Trump changed the conversation around what you're
doing here, do you think? You know, what's really, really
(10:49):
vital is how do, how do we maintain the freedom of
expression for artists? And how do we also, you know,
how do we make sure that artistsare protected and the risks are
allowed to be taken and that we are allowed to be the, the
discourse is the discourse is allowed to be critical that,
that, you know, that's what's really important to protect.
(11:11):
And, and I think seeing what's happening both in America and in
other parts of the world, it feels imperative that we protect
the artist's voice. Does it feel like a frightening
time? It feels, it feels like a really
important time to, it feels and it feels like a time of where
there's incredible responsibility and care needs to
(11:33):
be taken. It's, it's allowing artists and
stories to live and breathe and also make sure people don't self
censor, you know, so that we're not, we're, we're being
provocative and we're challenging as well as bringing
everyone in. It's also a time when there's a
lot of polarization and we want to and there's a lot of
(11:55):
separation and communities are being divided.
Every identity feels that they're under threat.
And how do we remove that sense of threat and actually find ways
of bringing us together? So I think it's an important.
Issue, I mean, he's he's sort ofbackers both in America and here
would say, you know, that the trouble is the arts is massively
(12:16):
liberal. There's a massive bias against
us. They, you know, they talk about
diversity, but they don't they don't talk about the stuff that
we talk about. And that's what we want to bring
to the arts as well. Have they got a point?
Absolutely. I mean like, you know, it's
it's, you know, you have to havea as as wide a sort of different
choices and perspectives as possible.
I don't totally agree that theirperspective isn't heard well,
(12:37):
you know. But, you know, if their
perspective on immigration is not really about trying to
understand the immigrant experience, but about looking at
immigrants as a threat to the nation, you know, and all of
that, is that something theatre should also look at?
I think it needs to look at bothsides of I think an argument
like why do we, you know, you can't be it it sorry, the threat
(13:01):
to immigration, the threat of immigration or the issue of
immigration lies in the complexity of the debate.
You know, it's not one or the other.
And actually it's getting into the complexity.
We live in a time of like we want sound bites and we want
immediate answers and we don't want to go into the nuances of
of an an argument and the threatof a really good play or a good
(13:22):
story about immigration that really makes us that make that's
makes everyone want to come and see.
It has to express both sides or it has, you know, and that
actually actually most good plays I know has all those
different voices. And what I love about really,
you know, even even more recently, like in father in the
assassin, people watch that playthinking it was a pro Gandhi
(13:45):
play or it was an anti Gandhi player.
A good play makes you doesn't tell you what to think and what
I did what one about Margaret Thatcher and you know the right
wing thought it was about it wasa brilliant play about Margaret
Thatcher and the left wing thought it was a brilliant play
anti Margaret Thatcher. That's what good theatre does.
It doesn't it goes into a complexity.
(14:06):
It isn't it isn't liberal into one side or you know that you
know it should be a multi layered faceted discussion and.
Can you bring in audiences here from, from different views or is
it, you know, is it, are we becoming so polarized that, you
know, people tend to go in tribes?
(14:28):
Can you see the stuff you're pushing on really bringing in
people from all sides? I mean, it's a good pitch, but
it's quite hard to deliver in reality, isn't?
It I don't think it is. I think you give a good story,
you give a good hook or whatever, whatever the reason,
whatever the hooks are. That's what's amazing about here
is like you get, you get people from around the country, around
(14:48):
the world that want to come intothese spaces and not from 1.
You know what, you know, you've got over 1000 seats to fill and
they sell out with the right kind of story.
You know, which we've got on dear England at the moment and
people who've never been to the theatre, football fans from
around the country are coming and you're watching fathers and
sons and people who love, you know.
(15:09):
So it's, it's how it's, it's what story you're telling that
brings them in. And that's what's great about
here is that it does the, you know, it's you, you, you build
it. They will come if it's the thing
that they want to come and see, you know, and.
When when you look at what's happening in America from a
National Theatre perspective, doyou have one eye on that
thinking? Oh, we're not that far away from
(15:30):
that, you know, from that here. You know, we, we could be
looking at a Nigel Farage government in five years time
with a very similar approach to these sorts of things, you know,
and a very, you know, and a pretty scathing critique of the
arts and what they regard as bias within it.
Listen, and like I said in so, you know, as I will fight
(15:53):
passionately, A, for the arm's length principle that that
that's really important, but B that arts isn't just about being
liberal or or not liberal, that arts is imperative to our
society, the culture, you know, and it's actually, it's the
right of every young person to have access to arts and cultural
(16:14):
subjects. And actually, and, and, and, and
also for a society that has equality of opportunity.
It's not, it isn't about partisan politics, it's about
expression, it's about community, it's about society
and it's about how we come together.
And that that that's what I would always fight for.
It's, it's it's we. So it's a society is a world as
(16:35):
a, as, as culture, right from the birth of dawn, we've, we've
always gathered to tell stories,to try and understand something.
And it's trying to understand whether it's something about
ourselves or something about our, the world we live in.
And that's, it's really important to fight for that.
And it's really important to challenge any cuts like and, and
(16:55):
reduction of that that's going into our education system.
If I, if I look at the names that you've put on your, your
first season, it's very much not, you know, the old white
public school establishment is, is, is that a sort of AI mean?
I'm assuming it's deliberate. It's not no, actually can I just
(17:18):
take that everyone is welcome and and I'm sure that, you know,
I, I don't want to name names because they're that it might be
insulting to call them old public school establishment, But
I think some of the people that you think of that are in that in
that season, But I it, it's about lots of talent and and
also talent that deserves to be part of the mainstream.
(17:41):
The phrase I've coined is the modern mainstream.
That, that, that, that's what I want.
This is that is like, I think all, you know, all different
types of stories and performers and staff deserve to be part of
the mainstream because our mainstream is a much more wider,
wider thing than the establishment you were talking
(18:02):
about. Our mainstream are the young,
young people in, in Lewisham or,or, or the people in in America
or the, the Chinese students or the, you know, our mainstream is
made-up of so many different communities that have a right to
this building the stories that we want to tell.
What, what, what have you learntalong the way before you got
(18:23):
here about that, You know, what's the?
Solution I I've learnt that people want to see a really,
really good story and you know, and it's not, you know, I think
sometimes we go, oh, we need to put, we need to put, we need to
tell this story for this community.
We need to tell this story for that community.
Actually, you tell a story that's well made and interesting
and about the human condition. It's for everybody.
(18:45):
And that that's what I'm really interested in put is how those
stories from a different perspective becomes part of the
the conversation. The other thing that's really
under attack at the moment is equity, diversity and inclusion,
or DEI. They do it the other way around
in America. You know how.
How important do you think it isfor institutions like this to
(19:08):
still try to address inequality and diversity?
I think it's the foundation of, of who we are and, and, and, and
what forget the terminology of, you know, the, the, because I, I
think that becomes provocative in itself.
And it's, it's being used as a, as a, as a, as a, a hammer on
certain things. And it's, and it's, and it's
(19:29):
being used to make other people feel disenfranchised.
So, you know, I think, I think equality of opportunity,
different voices, different audiences, different
perspectives is a, is a, is imperative for us to feel heard,
feel seen. And that includes, that includes
that that's, that's about everybody.
(19:50):
And the minute someone feels othered or outside is, is when
we're not, we're not being representative of a National
Theatre. Just explain what you mean by
how you think it's being used todisenfranchise people.
What do you mean by? That it's sorry, but I mean,
it's, it's, it's been. It's a good point.
I just want. You to yeah, it's been coined as
a negative. You know, if you talk about the
(20:11):
phrases, when is inclusion and diversity and equity bad words,
that isn't that the foundation of every society isn't does
that, doesn't that go back to, you know, and the founding
fathers of isn't that what democracy is about?
That everyone is included in being able to vote and decide
who governs us? So the reason I'm the reason
(20:31):
when we say EDI or it's being used where that's being banned,
I sort of like, that's why I'm saying it's being used as a tool
or being used to hammer, you know, none of those words are
bad and you know, and. And yet some people think it
excludes them. Yes, exactly.
So that's why because of how it's being used.
And I and I think that when you say about here the inclusion,
(20:52):
everyone needs to feel included.I mean, you had a pretty unusual
entry into this world, didn't you?
I suppose Well in the I. Mean, yeah, yeah, yeah, a bit.
Like me, you were expected to bea doctor and and then suddenly
you decided, oh, this is fun, let's do that instead.
(21:13):
Yeah, a lot. You know that.
That's it's it's quite difficultto do that, isn't it?
Tell me how how did you become atheatre director?
It, it was so my parents, my parents came over from Sri
Lanka, immigrants from Sri Lankaand I think their their their
their hope for family in the community was to be was to be a
(21:34):
a doctor or a lawyer and as. All good Asian.
Kids as all good Asian families.And the really annoying thing
was I was quite good at sciencesand I didn't want to be and
through a, a, a really random opportunity that was given at
school, I got access into a theatre and it just, there was
(21:56):
something about the world that Ifound really magical and kind of
extraordinary. So I just got a bit obsessed by
it. I was doing science A levels had
to wanted to do a drama degree. You needed English A level had
to finish those at A levels and get another A level in English
in order to go to, to go to university, sort of beg my
parents to let me go and do a drama degree.
And and then it just then slowlylike, and then, and then I
(22:20):
started my degree and felt like I wanted to follow in your
footsteps and become a journalist.
And then and then just by. We're about the same.
Age, I know I wasn't following my footsteps.
I know, but I was like, you know, I was I didn't, I didn't
mean it like that, but I was like, I was going to be like
you. I was going to you never know
what might have happened. But then, but then in my second
(22:41):
year, I, I made myself director plate.
I don't know why, but I made myself direct to play.
And that's when I felt like the the, the sort of the science
side of me and the arts side, the creative side sort of found
found a place and did everythingI could to try and understand
what that might mean as a profession.
And and so how, what, what wouldyou advise people now?
(23:04):
I really would advise people to follow their passion, you know,
because the, the job security oflike, oh, the stable job market,
we don't know how that's going to change with, with a, with the
global currents, with AI, all ofthose things.
So what you can do is be do whatyou really, really excites you,
What makes you passionate, what makes you get out of bed in the
(23:24):
morning. That's what I would really
advise young people to do. Indy Riversing and thank you
very much indeed. You can watch all of these
interviews on the Channel 4 NewsYouTube channel.
Our producer is Victoria Patel. Until next time, bye bye.
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