November 7, 2025 • 30 mins
Founding member of Pussy Riot and one of the most high-profile political activists in Russia imprisoned by Vladimir Putin's government - in this Ways to Change the World Podcast, Krishnan Guru-Murthy speaks to Masha Alyokhina.
She became internationally known after the group's protest performance in Moscow's Cathedral of Christ the Saviour in 2012, which led to her arrest and two years in prison. Since her release, Masha has continued to challenge Putin's regime and fight for freedom of expression through her art, writing and activism. And her new book, Political Girl, is an account of protest, prison and her thoughts about Russia today.
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(00:00):
Putin killed the most bright andfamous and brave politician and
person in our country, Aleksey Navalny, after three years of
slowly torturing him. Since then, anyone can be killed
any moment inside the country. Hello and welcome to Ways to
(00:23):
Change the World. I'm Christian Girimurthy, and
this is the podcast where we talk to extraordinary people
about the big ideas in their lives and the events that have
helped shape them. My guest this week is Masha Al
Yukina, artist, activist and founding member of the Russian
feminist punk collective Pussy Riot.
She became internationally knownafter the group's protest
performance in Moscow's Cathedral of Christ the Saviour
(00:44):
in 2012, which led to her arrestand two years in prison.
Now living in exile, Masha continues to challenge Putin's
regime and fight for freedom of expression through her art,
writing and activism. And her new book, Political
Girl, is an account, a diary of protest, of prison and of her
(01:07):
thoughts about Russia Today. Masha, thank you very much
indeed for joining. Us.
Thank you. You're living in exile now.
When you look at Russia Today, do you see it differently to how
you saw it when you were there? I don't like the word exile
actually, because that was hard,but my decision to like dress
(01:28):
myself as a Courier, to make 3 attempts to cross the border
without documents, that's all I did.
So basically there was no kind of, you know, someone resisted
like running to me and go away, go away.
You weren't forced down. You.
You chose. Yeah, I choose that not because
mostly I afraid of prison, because I spend a lot of time
(01:52):
there. I wanted to help Ukraine and I
wanted to do what I'm doing now to raise money for Ukrainian
unions and hospitals, to stand with this country and to openly
speak. So if you went to Russia, what
would happen to you now? 13 years and 15 days in penal
calling you minimum because sometimes they open criminal
(02:16):
cases on people who are already in prison.
So to come back to my question, when you look at Russia Today,
is it worse than it was when youwere there?
So now since 2022, since the full scale invasion, it's
definitely became worse. They added several new articles
(02:38):
into the Criminal Code which prohibits to speak about this
war and even call this war the war.
And the price for like not doingthat is from 8:00 to 20 years.
Also, last year shows quite clearly that anyone can be
(02:59):
killed because Putin killed the most right and famous and brave
politician and person in our country, Aleksina Vali, after
three years of slowly torturing him.
And yes, that means that since since then anyone can be killed
(03:23):
any moment inside the country, in prison or outside the prison
do. Do you think Russia is
understood by the West? No, I don't think so.
What? What are our biggest
misunderstandings? It depends on whom we're talking
about. People in general have quite
short memory and this is understandable because everyone
(03:46):
lives their own life and to careand specialized super care about
country or a conflict between other countries or even the war
is very limited. So you can't worry, but for a
limited amount of time, Putin's invasion to Ukraine and taking
(04:07):
the territory to full scale war which is going on now, There
were no proper sanctions, no embargo to Russian oil and gas.
There was a green light to continuation of the war.
So there was no clear no to thatinvasion.
(04:27):
I wanted to show through the small small steps how it's
possible to take freedoms 1 by 1.
Why is he apparently so popular?Where?
Well, I mean, unless you think all the electoral outcomes are
total nonsense and clearly there's been allegations of vote
(04:52):
tampering through the years. There is a body of opinion in
Russia that seems to support Putin.
Why? In the country with war
censorship, it's impossible to count statistics.
So we have situation when peoplebeing imprisoned for giving
(05:15):
interviews on the streets to Western journalists.
And that was even not like statements about how they hate
Putin or how they stand against this war.
There were much lighter, even not a criticism but not
appreciation of the system. And people went to prison
(05:36):
because Centre E political police recognised their faces,
came to their apartments over the criminal cases and grabbed
them from there. It's not just non existence of
freedom of speech, it's war censorship.
So at this point, we cannot count real statistics.
We cannot. We cannot find out how many
(05:59):
people support Putin and how many people are in captivity.
Silently suffer inside. Well, how?
How would you describe it then? I mean, how, what?
What is your sense of how much actual support Putin has and how
much fear keeps him in power? I think fear 80% and this is not
(06:25):
just the fear which being placedby this regime.
This is a generation of fear because our country like Russia
is a new country. Soviet Union existed for almost
100 years, oppressing any difference.
(06:46):
So generation by generation people were like giving to their
children the fear people being executed during the great terror
and that were like best people. A lot of people have been sent
out of the country after the redRevolution is also great
(07:10):
intelligent people. So those who survived gave a
knowledge of keeping silence to their children to self censor
and it you cannot just Soviet Union collapsed, but people
(07:30):
stayed, people stayed and their state of mind remained.
So to overcome this way of thinking to understand how
important freedom is, several generations should work on the
mistakes which been done during the century to go through the
(07:51):
process, which for example, Germany went up to the Second
World War, called the diversification that haven't
been done. And Putin is proud that FSB, for
example, keeping the legacy of KGB.
So they are celebrating this legacy.
(08:13):
And I think it's quite representative.
We talk if we talk about like current situation, there is this
documentary which I want to watch and I Mr. Nobody against
Putin. So basically it's a teacher from
one of the Russian schools who managed to hiddenly film new
(08:38):
lessons, which are obligatory now in Russian schools of ultra
patriotism. Because, you know, after the
full scale war, they rewrote thehistory, they wrote new history
books calling Ukrainians Nazis. And this teacher managed to film
(08:58):
this patriotic lessons and run away from the country with the
footage. So now this regime is putting a
lot of money and resources, human resources, to raise real
so-called patriots, those who are young, who haven't seen
(09:19):
anything except this regime, whohaven't been abroad and will
honestly believe in this regime because they want like, real
believers. Let's go back to the beginning
of pussy riots. OK.
What did you believe you were? What did you believe was
(09:40):
possible to achieve through resistance, through fighting?
Did you think you could bring the system down, or were you
just fighting because it was theright thing to do?
When Putin announced that he's going to run for so-called
presidency for like third time, there were large protests across
Russia. So there was big protest
(10:01):
movements. A lot of people who were not
agree to have him again. And we've been a part of this
protest. I think I personally didn't have
any goal accepts shouting the truth, which is necessary I
(10:25):
think in this moment. Just explain why.
Why it's necessary to shout the truth?
Because this is how change can happen.
How change can happen if you remain silent?
But these were not normal reactions for a young woman in
Russia. So.
So where did that come from? Where did your sense of freedom
(10:48):
come from? What is not normal?
That reaction that I want to shout the truth, that I want to
take on the system, that I want to risk being arrested or sent
to jail, most people don't reactlike that.
In that situation, you did. So what?
Why do you? It's very sad that most people
do not react well. I do not separate men from women
(11:12):
at this point. We, we've been first artists,
activists who've been imprisonedand got criminal case for the
protest. Yeah, we are women, that's true.
But in general they didn't imprison artist men before.
So they were, I think, like double offended.
(11:33):
Were you shocked that you were sent to prison?
I was definitely surprised when the criminal case was opened.
Yes, I was the first person to whom police came.
I was going back home from the kindergarten with my son.
(11:54):
That was late evening. We went to elevator, went up to
my floor, and there was a guy inthe plainclothes saying that
he's a policeman, he is going toarrest me.
So that was surprising. That was, yeah, quite
unbelievably surprising. But I think on the second or
(12:18):
third day on 3rd prison, the political police came to to the
prison, like bring me to the office.
And he clearly said that it willbe a prison term, it will be two
years minimum if I will not signthe paper that I'm guilty.
(12:40):
And I'm super sorry for everything what was done and I
didn't sign it. Why?
Why didn't you sign it? Why should I?
Because you. Were going to go to prison.
I'm not guilty and I'm not sorry.
Why should I say? I mean, come on.
I suppose I'm just putting to you what a lot of people, what
might have thought, you know, I don't want to go to prison.
(13:04):
So yeah, fine. I'll sign whatever you want me
to sign. You can that.
Chose the other the other route.I understand.
Yeah, but you can end up in muchmore dangerous prison if you
will sign a lie and especially if you will deal with like
dictator state. This is you can end up in much
(13:25):
worse thing. And I don't know, I mean I just
did what I felt I need to do. How was it in prison being
deprived from your child? We have different prison system
from yours. Legacy of Soviet Union network
of Pinot colonists. Labour camps which before been
(13:50):
named as a gulag. Now it's just, you know, federal
prison system. But the concept is the same.
It's look like strange village. 2 parts living zone, working
zone, living zone, barracks, 100women in one room, 3 toilets,
(14:11):
one fridge. No hot water, no normal food.
Working zone is a fabric where prisoners sold the police
uniform and uniform for rationalarmy for the amount of money
which is equivalent to £2 per month.
As you see, this is legal slavery without the possibility
(14:33):
to write any claim to human rights defenders, because
majority of them are working together with administration or
you will be punished if you willsay that you know something is
bad in this colony. I didn't know all of that, so I
(14:53):
went to Human Rights Commission and said something about warm
clothes for women, which didn't exist.
They locked me to surgery confinement.
Plus they wrote this descriptionin my case, which I saw
afterwards that I can disorganize the whole colony.
(15:15):
So that means that everyone who were trying to chat with me to
to talk with me in the smoking area been called immediately to
the office and said that if you will like appear near you near
your one time more, it will be acriminal case will be more 3,
three more years in prison for disorganisation of the colony.
(15:42):
You have two types of visits, a long visit once in three months
and short visit. Short visit is a conversation
through the glass can be with anyone.
Long visit can be only with relatives.
And this is 3 days you leave together in one room and you're
(16:04):
able to cook together and all that.
So I had two visits of my son during this period of time.
So it wasn't like complete separation, but.
I mean, that's amazing to hear you say that.
I mean it. I think for most people that is
(16:26):
effectively complete separation.It's so rare.
And your son was how old? Well, he was five and then
seven. I mean, inside the prison,
definitely. It's heartbreaking to see your
child and then understand that it's like for three days.
But the point is that the systemis permanently pressuring you.
(16:50):
And if you will just, you know, be in suffering emotions, you
will be not able to protect yourself.
And if you, if you choose, and Ichose to stand for prisoners
rights and stand for myself first, do not let them
accumulate me all the time. You should lock these emotions,
(17:13):
let's say. So you should kind of understand
that this amount of time you spend here, nowhere else, you're
not going home this amount of time.
So do whatever you can in these conditions.
It's like this. I mean, it's fascinating reading
about how you felt about being released and being released in
(17:33):
Amnesty. But what what is remarkable, I
suppose for many people looking at I think, is that you come out
and and you carry on and you keep going and you keep going to
protest and you keep doing actions.
Just explain what your mindset is there.
What are you? What are you doing, or how are
(17:55):
you not afraid you're going to end up back in that penal
colony? Well, I wasn't thinking about
going back to penal colony and basically, so we've been
released two months before the end of the term because of the
act of amnesty, which puts enrolled before Olympic Games.
So it would be a scene to not goto the Olympic Games and not
(18:17):
make an action. I would not understand myself if
I would not do it can. We talk a little bit about the
causes that you are fighting forthen.
I mean, obviously there is democracy, freedom, not being a
dictatorship. But you've mentioned Ukraine as
one of your driving motives and that is both the invasion of
(18:37):
Crimea and then the full scale invasion in 2022.
Why is that such an important driving force for your protests
and your opposition to Putin? It's on European interest to
save Ukraine, to have it not been eaten by Putin's Bullock
and turned into Bullock because there is lack of information
(19:01):
what is going on in the occupiedterritories.
But it's basically turned into torture chambers.
If we do not like speak about Bahmoud, which is just erased
from the plaintiff, those citieswhich been occupied are torture
chambers. That should not happen with this
country because I mean if we speak emotionally, they are
(19:28):
fighting for the 4th year against the biggest army in
European continent, bravely juststanding for their lands.
And for my opinion, it should besupported because they they they
(19:50):
want to be a part of Europe and share European values.
Do you think military victory isthe answer for Ukraine?
I think like my opinion, European army and British Army
should be sent to to save Ukraine, yes, to protect Ukraine
to. Fight.
(20:10):
To fight and this is definitely will be not super popular
decision. I mean, I understand that for
any Western politician it would be quite hard to explain to
people why they need to send their people.
Well, what would you say if you were sitting down with the
British Prime Minister? Because today they found Naz
(20:33):
so-called Nazis in Ukraine. If you will give up Ukraine, if
you will give Ukraine, they willfind so-called Nazis in your
country. Putin needs war.
Putin needs war as a situation. It's since 2014 when since here
(20:54):
next Crimea he puts as an ideological main point so-called
cult of victory. It was spread like through all
propaganda resources that there are new Nazis that were fighting
with the new Nazis. Like our grandparents.
(21:15):
We are the great and all of thislike greatness thing.
Putin needs the war. So you think the Western peace
movement is wrong? You know, the people who are
essentially pacifist and who want to end the war.
You think this is a war that needs to be won?
I think it's quite like Hippocratic saying what means
(21:36):
end the war, give territories, you will give this territories,
sign negotiations throughout this war.
And you honestly believe that you can negotiate with Putin?
I mean it's naive. Just look to the previous years.
(21:58):
In 2015 they signed negotiationsand what happened after?
What happened like in seven years new invasion, you will
sign negotiations now you will save time, you will be probably
re elected and then what? There will be more blood.
So do do you think the left in Europe that regards itself as a
(22:20):
peace movement is just naive? Well, this is very polite,
correct way. Polite way to say.
I'm a polite person. You can say it however you.
Like, well, what you would say if that would be a situation
(22:40):
when you need to give part of your country to, if it will be
like the situation when there isa danger sirens, many people
killed and you have to give the part of your country you will
give. This is not about peace, it's
about fear. It's about comfort and about
(23:03):
indifference about less like lack of knowledge about what is
going on inside the country. To give the territory doesn't
mean just replace one flag to another.
It means that people who do not agree will be killed.
You know how many people been living in Donetsk before the
occupation were more than 1,000,000 people.
(23:26):
Now it's around 200,050 on the ruins without like hot water,
all the fabrics, everything stopped.
So this is like 8 years of occupation.
What about like more than half who had to leave, who don't have
home anymore, who became refugees because of that?
(23:47):
Like, is it all a peace? This is just, it's not a peace.
You have a lot, I mean people from the Western countries.
You all have a possibility to goto Ukraine yourself and to see
with your eyes what is going on there.
(24:08):
It's not a big Rd. Yes, aeroplanes do not fly
there, it's true. But trains are going and they
are amazing. Just come and watch and after
that probably this propaganda will not work anymore.
Where? Where is your level of hope for
Russia? Level.
How hopeful are you? Well, I think we should do what
(24:30):
we can every day. And I mean, I'm not the
government, I don't have an army, I don't have amount of
weapons which I can like give toresistance or to Ukraine.
I mean, when you look at Trump and the way he treats Putin,
(24:51):
even when you look back at the previous administration that
kept Ukraine restricted in termsof what it could do, doesn't it
look like Putin will stay in power for as long as he's alive?
I think Western fear and indifference is not the reason
to give up and to lose the whole.
(25:11):
It's not my fear and indifference and I can again
what I can just give my experience.
This is the only thing I have, what I saw, what I lived and
what I'm living through. And I don't know which impact it
can produce, but it's something we stay and we'll stay.
(25:37):
So it does not matter what do I feel this or that moment because
it's always different and quite strong, Felix, But it matters to
continue doing. I think it's how I think do.
You believe you'll go back to Russia?
I hope in one moment I will see my country again.
(25:59):
Yes, but I'm not waiting for that.
As you know, some, somebody willcome and like, give me a
presence. This is your way back home.
We we've been born where we've been born.
We on the time which kind of been chosen for us.
(26:22):
So we should do what we can. And, and, and just finally, I
mean, how, how do you feel aboutRussia now as a, as a Russian?
I mean, like, you know, the language of patriotism.
I love my country, you know, is used as a as a weapon against
people like you. They call us enemies of the
people, enemies of the state. They name us extremists and
(26:47):
terrorists. There is official list of
extremists and terrorists and all the people who who've been
charged for so-called fakes about Russian army are
extremists. And many of the people from I
know and with whom we work hard,terrorists.
They call us like that. True.
(27:08):
I'm Marsha. I'm Ian Are.
You a patriot? Would you describe yourself as a
patriot? It's not only me, it's even
Russian cops said that I'm a patriot.
So they opened second criminal case against me in January 2021.
For Instagram posts for the callto the protest rally.
When Navalny came back, that wasjust I think a week before the
(27:32):
full scale war started. There were a lot of talks.
That is that it will happen. So I received 2 terms of 15 days
for so-called promoting Nazism inside the country and I was
offended. Actually first time especially I
was like why? I'm not a Nazi but why?
(27:53):
Anyway we were in this building of the court.
We were exiting this building with two policemen and one of
them said that you, Masha is a patriot but you will leave us
for sure. And the one, this thing which
which I managed to answer, managed to answer, I said I
(28:14):
don't want to. There were a lot of them who
respected us and that's why theywere like treated us differently
in different like in detention centres and prisons.
Yes, they were working there, but they they were understanding
that we are locked inside, not because we committed a crime,
(28:38):
but because we are political prisoners.
It's just not marked. So that shows that they
understand. I know another country.
I mean, I, I know it and it's have you seen like recent videos
of young St. musicians which been in Russia?
(29:00):
Yes, there was this. There is this girl called Diana
Naoka St. musician who was singing the songs of artists who
are not in the country because of the war and some protest.
Songs from perestroika time are 19 years old and kids the same
(29:22):
age singing the songs together. So it's kind of this is the
country I know. That gives you.
Hope this is just you asked about patriotism and this is the
country. I mean, these are the people.
Marsha, thank you very much indeed.
You too. Thank you for coming.
(29:43):
In Thank you. You can watch all of these
interviews on the Channel 4 NewsYouTube channel.
Until next time, bye bye.
Putin killed the most bright andfamous and brave politician and
person in our country, Aleksey Navalny, after three years of
slowly torturing him. Since then, anyone can be killed
any moment inside the country. Hello and welcome to Ways to
(00:23):
Change the World. I'm Christian Girimurthy, and
this is the podcast where we talk to extraordinary people
about the big ideas in their lives and the events that have
helped shape them. My guest this week is Masha Al
Yukina, artist, activist and founding member of the Russian
feminist punk collective Pussy Riot.
She became internationally knownafter the group's protest
performance in Moscow's Cathedral of Christ the Saviour
(00:44):
in 2012, which led to her arrestand two years in prison.
Now living in exile, Masha continues to challenge Putin's
regime and fight for freedom of expression through her art,
writing and activism. And her new book, Political
Girl, is an account, a diary of protest, of prison and of her
(01:07):
thoughts about Russia Today. Masha, thank you very much
indeed for joining. Us.
Thank you. You're living in exile now.
When you look at Russia Today, do you see it differently to how
you saw it when you were there? I don't like the word exile
actually, because that was hard,but my decision to like dress
(01:28):
myself as a Courier, to make 3 attempts to cross the border
without documents, that's all I did.
So basically there was no kind of, you know, someone resisted
like running to me and go away, go away.
You weren't forced down. You.
You chose. Yeah, I choose that not because
mostly I afraid of prison, because I spend a lot of time
(01:52):
there. I wanted to help Ukraine and I
wanted to do what I'm doing now to raise money for Ukrainian
unions and hospitals, to stand with this country and to openly
speak. So if you went to Russia, what
would happen to you now? 13 years and 15 days in penal
calling you minimum because sometimes they open criminal
(02:16):
cases on people who are already in prison.
So to come back to my question, when you look at Russia Today,
is it worse than it was when youwere there?
So now since 2022, since the full scale invasion, it's
definitely became worse. They added several new articles
(02:38):
into the Criminal Code which prohibits to speak about this
war and even call this war the war.
And the price for like not doingthat is from 8:00 to 20 years.
Also, last year shows quite clearly that anyone can be
(02:59):
killed because Putin killed the most right and famous and brave
politician and person in our country, Aleksina Vali, after
three years of slowly torturing him.
And yes, that means that since since then anyone can be killed
(03:23):
any moment inside the country, in prison or outside the prison
do. Do you think Russia is
understood by the West? No, I don't think so.
What? What are our biggest
misunderstandings? It depends on whom we're talking
about. People in general have quite
short memory and this is understandable because everyone
(03:46):
lives their own life and to careand specialized super care about
country or a conflict between other countries or even the war
is very limited. So you can't worry, but for a
limited amount of time, Putin's invasion to Ukraine and taking
(04:07):
the territory to full scale war which is going on now, There
were no proper sanctions, no embargo to Russian oil and gas.
There was a green light to continuation of the war.
So there was no clear no to thatinvasion.
(04:27):
I wanted to show through the small small steps how it's
possible to take freedoms 1 by 1.
Why is he apparently so popular?Where?
Well, I mean, unless you think all the electoral outcomes are
total nonsense and clearly there's been allegations of vote
(04:52):
tampering through the years. There is a body of opinion in
Russia that seems to support Putin.
Why? In the country with war
censorship, it's impossible to count statistics.
So we have situation when peoplebeing imprisoned for giving
(05:15):
interviews on the streets to Western journalists.
And that was even not like statements about how they hate
Putin or how they stand against this war.
There were much lighter, even not a criticism but not
appreciation of the system. And people went to prison
(05:36):
because Centre E political police recognised their faces,
came to their apartments over the criminal cases and grabbed
them from there. It's not just non existence of
freedom of speech, it's war censorship.
So at this point, we cannot count real statistics.
We cannot. We cannot find out how many
(05:59):
people support Putin and how many people are in captivity.
Silently suffer inside. Well, how?
How would you describe it then? I mean, how, what?
What is your sense of how much actual support Putin has and how
much fear keeps him in power? I think fear 80% and this is not
(06:25):
just the fear which being placedby this regime.
This is a generation of fear because our country like Russia
is a new country. Soviet Union existed for almost
100 years, oppressing any difference.
(06:46):
So generation by generation people were like giving to their
children the fear people being executed during the great terror
and that were like best people. A lot of people have been sent
out of the country after the redRevolution is also great
(07:10):
intelligent people. So those who survived gave a
knowledge of keeping silence to their children to self censor
and it you cannot just Soviet Union collapsed, but people
(07:30):
stayed, people stayed and their state of mind remained.
So to overcome this way of thinking to understand how
important freedom is, several generations should work on the
mistakes which been done during the century to go through the
(07:51):
process, which for example, Germany went up to the Second
World War, called the diversification that haven't
been done. And Putin is proud that FSB, for
example, keeping the legacy of KGB.
So they are celebrating this legacy.
(08:13):
And I think it's quite representative.
We talk if we talk about like current situation, there is this
documentary which I want to watch and I Mr. Nobody against
Putin. So basically it's a teacher from
one of the Russian schools who managed to hiddenly film new
(08:38):
lessons, which are obligatory now in Russian schools of ultra
patriotism. Because, you know, after the
full scale war, they rewrote thehistory, they wrote new history
books calling Ukrainians Nazis. And this teacher managed to film
(08:58):
this patriotic lessons and run away from the country with the
footage. So now this regime is putting a
lot of money and resources, human resources, to raise real
so-called patriots, those who are young, who haven't seen
(09:19):
anything except this regime, whohaven't been abroad and will
honestly believe in this regime because they want like, real
believers. Let's go back to the beginning
of pussy riots. OK.
What did you believe you were? What did you believe was
(09:40):
possible to achieve through resistance, through fighting?
Did you think you could bring the system down, or were you
just fighting because it was theright thing to do?
When Putin announced that he's going to run for so-called
presidency for like third time, there were large protests across
Russia. So there was big protest
(10:01):
movements. A lot of people who were not
agree to have him again. And we've been a part of this
protest. I think I personally didn't have
any goal accepts shouting the truth, which is necessary I
(10:25):
think in this moment. Just explain why.
Why it's necessary to shout the truth?
Because this is how change can happen.
How change can happen if you remain silent?
But these were not normal reactions for a young woman in
Russia. So.
So where did that come from? Where did your sense of freedom
(10:48):
come from? What is not normal?
That reaction that I want to shout the truth, that I want to
take on the system, that I want to risk being arrested or sent
to jail, most people don't reactlike that.
In that situation, you did. So what?
Why do you? It's very sad that most people
do not react well. I do not separate men from women
(11:12):
at this point. We, we've been first artists,
activists who've been imprisonedand got criminal case for the
protest. Yeah, we are women, that's true.
But in general they didn't imprison artist men before.
So they were, I think, like double offended.
(11:33):
Were you shocked that you were sent to prison?
I was definitely surprised when the criminal case was opened.
Yes, I was the first person to whom police came.
I was going back home from the kindergarten with my son.
(11:54):
That was late evening. We went to elevator, went up to
my floor, and there was a guy inthe plainclothes saying that
he's a policeman, he is going toarrest me.
So that was surprising. That was, yeah, quite
unbelievably surprising. But I think on the second or
(12:18):
third day on 3rd prison, the political police came to to the
prison, like bring me to the office.
And he clearly said that it willbe a prison term, it will be two
years minimum if I will not signthe paper that I'm guilty.
(12:40):
And I'm super sorry for everything what was done and I
didn't sign it. Why?
Why didn't you sign it? Why should I?
Because you. Were going to go to prison.
I'm not guilty and I'm not sorry.
Why should I say? I mean, come on.
I suppose I'm just putting to you what a lot of people, what
might have thought, you know, I don't want to go to prison.
(13:04):
So yeah, fine. I'll sign whatever you want me
to sign. You can that.
Chose the other the other route.I understand.
Yeah, but you can end up in muchmore dangerous prison if you
will sign a lie and especially if you will deal with like
dictator state. This is you can end up in much
(13:25):
worse thing. And I don't know, I mean I just
did what I felt I need to do. How was it in prison being
deprived from your child? We have different prison system
from yours. Legacy of Soviet Union network
of Pinot colonists. Labour camps which before been
(13:50):
named as a gulag. Now it's just, you know, federal
prison system. But the concept is the same.
It's look like strange village. 2 parts living zone, working
zone, living zone, barracks, 100women in one room, 3 toilets,
(14:11):
one fridge. No hot water, no normal food.
Working zone is a fabric where prisoners sold the police
uniform and uniform for rationalarmy for the amount of money
which is equivalent to £2 per month.
As you see, this is legal slavery without the possibility
(14:33):
to write any claim to human rights defenders, because
majority of them are working together with administration or
you will be punished if you willsay that you know something is
bad in this colony. I didn't know all of that, so I
(14:53):
went to Human Rights Commission and said something about warm
clothes for women, which didn't exist.
They locked me to surgery confinement.
Plus they wrote this descriptionin my case, which I saw
afterwards that I can disorganize the whole colony.
(15:15):
So that means that everyone who were trying to chat with me to
to talk with me in the smoking area been called immediately to
the office and said that if you will like appear near you near
your one time more, it will be acriminal case will be more 3,
three more years in prison for disorganisation of the colony.
(15:42):
You have two types of visits, a long visit once in three months
and short visit. Short visit is a conversation
through the glass can be with anyone.
Long visit can be only with relatives.
And this is 3 days you leave together in one room and you're
(16:04):
able to cook together and all that.
So I had two visits of my son during this period of time.
So it wasn't like complete separation, but.
I mean, that's amazing to hear you say that.
I mean it. I think for most people that is
(16:26):
effectively complete separation.It's so rare.
And your son was how old? Well, he was five and then
seven. I mean, inside the prison,
definitely. It's heartbreaking to see your
child and then understand that it's like for three days.
But the point is that the systemis permanently pressuring you.
(16:50):
And if you will just, you know, be in suffering emotions, you
will be not able to protect yourself.
And if you, if you choose, and Ichose to stand for prisoners
rights and stand for myself first, do not let them
accumulate me all the time. You should lock these emotions,
(17:13):
let's say. So you should kind of understand
that this amount of time you spend here, nowhere else, you're
not going home this amount of time.
So do whatever you can in these conditions.
It's like this. I mean, it's fascinating reading
about how you felt about being released and being released in
(17:33):
Amnesty. But what what is remarkable, I
suppose for many people looking at I think, is that you come out
and and you carry on and you keep going and you keep going to
protest and you keep doing actions.
Just explain what your mindset is there.
What are you? What are you doing, or how are
(17:55):
you not afraid you're going to end up back in that penal
colony? Well, I wasn't thinking about
going back to penal colony and basically, so we've been
released two months before the end of the term because of the
act of amnesty, which puts enrolled before Olympic Games.
So it would be a scene to not goto the Olympic Games and not
(18:17):
make an action. I would not understand myself if
I would not do it can. We talk a little bit about the
causes that you are fighting forthen.
I mean, obviously there is democracy, freedom, not being a
dictatorship. But you've mentioned Ukraine as
one of your driving motives and that is both the invasion of
(18:37):
Crimea and then the full scale invasion in 2022.
Why is that such an important driving force for your protests
and your opposition to Putin? It's on European interest to
save Ukraine, to have it not been eaten by Putin's Bullock
and turned into Bullock because there is lack of information
(19:01):
what is going on in the occupiedterritories.
But it's basically turned into torture chambers.
If we do not like speak about Bahmoud, which is just erased
from the plaintiff, those citieswhich been occupied are torture
chambers. That should not happen with this
country because I mean if we speak emotionally, they are
(19:28):
fighting for the 4th year against the biggest army in
European continent, bravely juststanding for their lands.
And for my opinion, it should besupported because they they they
(19:50):
want to be a part of Europe and share European values.
Do you think military victory isthe answer for Ukraine?
I think like my opinion, European army and British Army
should be sent to to save Ukraine, yes, to protect Ukraine
to. Fight.
(20:10):
To fight and this is definitely will be not super popular
decision. I mean, I understand that for
any Western politician it would be quite hard to explain to
people why they need to send their people.
Well, what would you say if you were sitting down with the
British Prime Minister? Because today they found Naz
(20:33):
so-called Nazis in Ukraine. If you will give up Ukraine, if
you will give Ukraine, they willfind so-called Nazis in your
country. Putin needs war.
Putin needs war as a situation. It's since 2014 when since here
(20:54):
next Crimea he puts as an ideological main point so-called
cult of victory. It was spread like through all
propaganda resources that there are new Nazis that were fighting
with the new Nazis. Like our grandparents.
(21:15):
We are the great and all of thislike greatness thing.
Putin needs the war. So you think the Western peace
movement is wrong? You know, the people who are
essentially pacifist and who want to end the war.
You think this is a war that needs to be won?
I think it's quite like Hippocratic saying what means
(21:36):
end the war, give territories, you will give this territories,
sign negotiations throughout this war.
And you honestly believe that you can negotiate with Putin?
I mean it's naive. Just look to the previous years.
(21:58):
In 2015 they signed negotiationsand what happened after?
What happened like in seven years new invasion, you will
sign negotiations now you will save time, you will be probably
re elected and then what? There will be more blood.
So do do you think the left in Europe that regards itself as a
(22:20):
peace movement is just naive? Well, this is very polite,
correct way. Polite way to say.
I'm a polite person. You can say it however you.
Like, well, what you would say if that would be a situation
(22:40):
when you need to give part of your country to, if it will be
like the situation when there isa danger sirens, many people
killed and you have to give the part of your country you will
give. This is not about peace, it's
about fear. It's about comfort and about
(23:03):
indifference about less like lack of knowledge about what is
going on inside the country. To give the territory doesn't
mean just replace one flag to another.
It means that people who do not agree will be killed.
You know how many people been living in Donetsk before the
occupation were more than 1,000,000 people.
(23:26):
Now it's around 200,050 on the ruins without like hot water,
all the fabrics, everything stopped.
So this is like 8 years of occupation.
What about like more than half who had to leave, who don't have
home anymore, who became refugees because of that?
(23:47):
Like, is it all a peace? This is just, it's not a peace.
You have a lot, I mean people from the Western countries.
You all have a possibility to goto Ukraine yourself and to see
with your eyes what is going on there.
(24:08):
It's not a big Rd. Yes, aeroplanes do not fly
there, it's true. But trains are going and they
are amazing. Just come and watch and after
that probably this propaganda will not work anymore.
Where? Where is your level of hope for
Russia? Level.
How hopeful are you? Well, I think we should do what
(24:30):
we can every day. And I mean, I'm not the
government, I don't have an army, I don't have amount of
weapons which I can like give toresistance or to Ukraine.
I mean, when you look at Trump and the way he treats Putin,
(24:51):
even when you look back at the previous administration that
kept Ukraine restricted in termsof what it could do, doesn't it
look like Putin will stay in power for as long as he's alive?
I think Western fear and indifference is not the reason
to give up and to lose the whole.
(25:11):
It's not my fear and indifference and I can again
what I can just give my experience.
This is the only thing I have, what I saw, what I lived and
what I'm living through. And I don't know which impact it
can produce, but it's something we stay and we'll stay.
(25:37):
So it does not matter what do I feel this or that moment because
it's always different and quite strong, Felix, But it matters to
continue doing. I think it's how I think do.
You believe you'll go back to Russia?
I hope in one moment I will see my country again.
(25:59):
Yes, but I'm not waiting for that.
As you know, some, somebody willcome and like, give me a
presence. This is your way back home.
We we've been born where we've been born.
We on the time which kind of been chosen for us.
(26:22):
So we should do what we can. And, and, and just finally, I
mean, how, how do you feel aboutRussia now as a, as a Russian?
I mean, like, you know, the language of patriotism.
I love my country, you know, is used as a as a weapon against
people like you. They call us enemies of the
people, enemies of the state. They name us extremists and
(26:47):
terrorists. There is official list of
extremists and terrorists and all the people who who've been
charged for so-called fakes about Russian army are
extremists. And many of the people from I
know and with whom we work hard,terrorists.
They call us like that. True.
(27:08):
I'm Marsha. I'm Ian Are.
You a patriot? Would you describe yourself as a
patriot? It's not only me, it's even
Russian cops said that I'm a patriot.
So they opened second criminal case against me in January 2021.
For Instagram posts for the callto the protest rally.
When Navalny came back, that wasjust I think a week before the
(27:32):
full scale war started. There were a lot of talks.
That is that it will happen. So I received 2 terms of 15 days
for so-called promoting Nazism inside the country and I was
offended. Actually first time especially I
was like why? I'm not a Nazi but why?
(27:53):
Anyway we were in this building of the court.
We were exiting this building with two policemen and one of
them said that you, Masha is a patriot but you will leave us
for sure. And the one, this thing which
which I managed to answer, managed to answer, I said I
(28:14):
don't want to. There were a lot of them who
respected us and that's why theywere like treated us differently
in different like in detention centres and prisons.
Yes, they were working there, but they they were understanding
that we are locked inside, not because we committed a crime,
(28:38):
but because we are political prisoners.
It's just not marked. So that shows that they
understand. I know another country.
I mean, I, I know it and it's have you seen like recent videos
of young St. musicians which been in Russia?
(29:00):
Yes, there was this. There is this girl called Diana
Naoka St. musician who was singing the songs of artists who
are not in the country because of the war and some protest.
Songs from perestroika time are 19 years old and kids the same
(29:22):
age singing the songs together. So it's kind of this is the
country I know. That gives you.
Hope this is just you asked about patriotism and this is the
country. I mean, these are the people.
Marsha, thank you very much indeed.
You too. Thank you for coming.
(29:43):
In Thank you. You can watch all of these
interviews on the Channel 4 NewsYouTube channel.
Until next time, bye bye.
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