December 12, 2025 • 31 mins
Sanna Marin became Finland’s prime minister at just 34 - the youngest serving national leader at the time. She was raised by her mother and her mother’s female partner in modest circumstances, and was the first in her family to complete high school and attend university.
Since her rise to power, Marin has become known for her outspoken commitment to climate action, social justice and democratic values.
In her memoir Hope in Action, Marin shares a journey marked by resilience and hope, as well as a vision for a new kind of leadership.
On this episode of Ways to Change the World, Marin speaks to Krishnan Guru-Murthy about the European leadership, why she left politics and how to embrace womanhood.
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(00:00):
Europe isn't as weak as Europe is acting.
If we only let China and US leadthe way when it comes to
technology, we will be vulnerable in the future and we
shouldn't put ourselves in the same place with technology than
we did with energy. It's nobody else's job to
question individual women choiceexcept the women that are making
(00:23):
the choices. So wear whatever you want, be as
colorful as you want. Live your lives just the way who
you are. Hello and welcome to Ways to
Change the World. I'm Kristian Guru Murphy, and
this is the podcast in which we talk to extraordinary people
about the big ideas in their lives and the events that have
(00:43):
helped shape them. My guest this week is the former
Prime Minister of Finland, Sun and Marine.
She became famous as the world'syoungest Prime Minister aged
just 34, and she faced controversy over slightly absurd
things like what she was wearingin photo shoots and a famous
video in which she was seen dancing at a party with friends.
(01:03):
She gave up politics and went onto work for the Tony Blair
Institute, working closely with Ukraine.
And she has written a memoir called Hope in Action, in which
it documents her constant efforts to try and change the
world. Sana, welcome.
How would you change the world? Well, I think this answer is
(01:24):
very obvious. If I would have all the power in
the world, I would stop climate change and loss of biodiversity.
The biggest challenge is that humankind is facing.
But unfortunately I'm just an individual and I can only work
on my own small part. But we need action on these
matters, or otherwise we don't have any future at all now.
(01:47):
You, you, you talk, you know, really impressively about
wanting to change the world. You know, unashamedly.
It's a big, big ambition. Where did that come from?
I mean, you have an unusual childhood.
I come from quite humble background.
We didn't have wealth, money or or that kind of family
connections that would usually lead to the career in politics.
(02:10):
So I come from quite humble background, but I when I was 20,
I just felt so passionate about the about the matters that I
cared deeply, like climate but also gender equality, human
rights. I was raised in a rainbow
family. My mother had a companion that
was the same sex and I saw the injustice is a far society.
(02:36):
When I was growing up, I grew upin the 80s and 90s and at that
time we didn't recognise different kind of families and
different kind of people equally.
And I wanted to change these things.
I wanted to do do reforms withinour society that meets everybody
at the same way, give give people the same rights and the
(02:58):
same opportunities. And I committed my life for this
change. So even though as growing up I
didn't think ever to become a politician, it looked very far
away from the reality that I came from old men in Gray suits
talking about important matters.Still, I felt so passionate
(03:18):
about the things that I saw thatwere wrong in our society and in
our world, and I wanted to change that.
And I also realized that it's not only my opportunity and my
possibility to do something, it is also my responsibility
because it wasn't easier before when the older generations we're
we're building our welfare society or, or doing the changes
(03:41):
in, in our world, I could also do things.
And it's my responsibility to dothings, I mean.
That that's what's really unusual though, because I think
most people who feel frustrated with the world or angry about
the way people are treated or anissue is not being tackled, they
they don't feel they have the power to make a difference.
(04:02):
You clearly did at a very young age.
Where did that belief and confidence come from?
Maybe it was more frustration. I think the strongest emotion,
one of the strongest emotions beside love, is actually feeling
unjust and feeling unjustice happening.
(04:24):
So I felt that unjustice that I saw around me, and I wanted to
act on those unjustices. So I think that people actually
have power. They can do things.
Nobody can do things alone. We need each other.
And I think this is also something that is wrong with our
societies and our world today. You know, Western democracies
(04:46):
that we are so individualized that we don't understand that we
need to work together. And together we can make
structural changes. Together we can make big changes
in our worlds. And as I mentioned before, it
wasn't easy to build the rules based international order after
the Second World War. It wasn't easy in the Nordic
(05:07):
countries to build our society in a way where women would have
the same equal opportunities than men.
It was never easy to build the welfare society.
It all took extremely amount of work and work together.
And I think we need to let people feel that that they can
(05:29):
do things, that they can act on things and that they can act on
the act on things together. Nobody can do things alone.
If we are alone, we are small and then we cannot cheat this
change. But working together with each
other and also feeling that responsibility of of acting, I
think that's the key. And the message of my book is
(05:50):
also that hope isn't something that just falls from the sky.
It is something that we create from our actions.
Now across Europe, a lot of people who are trying to bring
about change are moving right. They are moving towards populist
parties. You chose to be a Social
Democrat. Why did you choose that route
(06:12):
as? I said I come from such an
unprivileged background. My mother was raised in an
orphanage. She had me when she was 23,
broke up with my father only couple of years after because he
was a severe alcoholic. So we never had a lot of money,
we never had connections, we never had much, but we had the
(06:33):
welfare society. I was so grateful to be born in
Finland and then have those opportunities because we have
extremely good daycare system and schooling system and we have
universities that don't. You don't have to pay tuition.
So I had opportunities in my life because of the generations
that build it, our welfare model.
(06:54):
And I understood very early on that I wouldn't have any chance
in life without these structures.
So that's why I chose Social Democrats that had always been
building this equality in our society that enables everybody
to pursue their dreams, whateverare their backgrounds.
And I want that to also continuethis work, but also reform our
(07:15):
society because the world is changing, our societies are
changing. We cannot be stagnated and think
that all structures will work forever.
We also have to reform those. What do you think is the best
way to take on this shift to therise and the attraction of
populist parties, which many people argue is the the natural
(07:36):
kickback reaction to the failureof social democracy?
I think there is a pendulum movement always.
So when when we see that things aren't working the way we want
and then there's a pendulum movement to some other
direction, we are seeing this with the far right and the
(07:56):
populistic movements rising in Europe within our democracies,
but also wider authoritarian countries are questioning the
international rules based order.And there's this big, big bendo
movement, this frame where we are now seeing the geopolitical
changes. But I think we have to meet
people's frustration and their dissatisfaction and their
(08:20):
problems in their everyday livesvery seriously.
We shouldn't discard those. Those are real, real problems
that people are facing. They are worried about high
inflation. They are worried about are they
able to provide themselves and their families.
Do they have opportunities? Do their children have
opportunities and they see that they are not now better off than
(08:42):
they were before? That actually things are now
harder than it used to be. And I think we have maybe
discarded these feelings, these emotions.
And as I said before that one ofthe strongest feeling of a
people, of people is the feelingof unjustice.
(09:03):
And I think we haven't met the feeling of unjust is enough.
And that's when people turn to easy answers, to populism, to
far right, because they are of course blaming.
It's the immigrants, it's the others, it's somebody else
taking our opportunities and ourjobs.
That is not that. Those are not facts.
(09:24):
Those are not the correct answers, but they are easy
answers. And it's easier to lean on them
than to believe that there will be change gradually happening
within our society. So we need to meet people's
feelings, their their their emotions, their frustration and
their real, real problems that they are facing.
(09:45):
I. Mean it's easier said than done,
isn't it? And Social Democrats around
Europe will will say, well, we are trying our best, you know,
you, we can't wave a magic wand.We're facing, you know, deep
entrenched post pandemic problems, post banking crisis
problems. You know, so are, are you saying
Social Democrats need to be, youknow, more creative, bolder to,
(10:09):
to think about things that they haven't thought about before?
Because they, they will all say we're trying.
Definitely bolder. I see that we are now lacking,
and I'm not only talking about Social Democrats and and our
parties, but in general, we are lacking now real leadership in
Europe. Unfortunately, I think we have
been in this dream world, this naive, naive world where we want
(10:35):
to think and believe that thingscan go back the way it was.
That's not going to happen. The authoritarian mindset and
the shift to this idea that thatthere are strong men and strong
men and ideology that strength and forced matters.
And then we don't anymore have these rules that we have been
(10:57):
creating together. So there is this this this book
push back on on the rules based order.
And we have been naive and we haven't seen this change
happening so radically in our world.
And now we would need that strong leadership.
So you should always know your core values and then you should
(11:19):
have a clear direction based on that, that those values you
have. You should have understanding of
your realistic options. And the realistic option isn't
going back. The realistic options are on the
table. If, for example, we give Russia
what it wants when it comes to Ukraine, it will only continue
(11:40):
its aggression, as we've seen before when Russia annexed
Crimea and the response from theinternational community was so
weak. So we haven't actually realized
what are the realistic options. And then when you have those
options, then you could form a strategy that would work.
And now we are actually lacking in Europe in all fields of
leadership values, the direction, the realistic options
(12:04):
and also forming a strategy based on this.
So when Trump says Europe is weak, he's right.
Europe isn't as weak as Europe is acting.
We have a lot of resources, we have a lot of capabilities.
We have know how we have talent now.
We just should believe that we have, and we should stop acting
(12:28):
weak when we are actually much more stronger than we give
ourselves credit for. I know you, you've been now now
at the Blair Institute, you've been working closely with
Ukraine and you talk in the bookabout how Europe failed to take
on Russia's behaviour when it was when it was, you know, early
(12:48):
not not just the invasion of of Crimea in 2014, but Russia's
authoritarianism at home, it's oppression of LGBTQ plus
communities in Russia. Are are we perhaps in danger
though of having the same turn away?
Don't take it on attitude towards towards what's happening
(13:11):
in America. I think that we discarded quite
a long time to changes within Russian society.
Russia didn't turn to this aggressor that started the full
scale invasion in Ukraine overnight.
That happened gradually within 1510 to 15 years, first
(13:31):
suppressing minority groups suchas the L GB TIQ community,
attacking opposition, attacking journalists, silencing the civil
society. So it happened gradually and
Europe looked the other way because we'd wanted to do
business, especially when it came to energy with Russia.
So we discarded the things that changes that were happening.
(13:55):
Then we acted weak when Russia annexed Crimea.
And after those those reactions,weak reactions from us, Putin
thought that he can just March into Kiev, change the
government, turn it into some kind of Belarus and the
international community. Europe wouldn't do anything
because we we didn't do much before.
(14:16):
And now we are maybe repeating the same mistakes.
If we are not careful. We should see when it comes to
the situation in Ukraine and nowthere's peace negotiations and
peace discussions between the countries.
We should understand that if there's a bully in the class
that bullies everybody around and steals other students
(14:38):
things, and the teacher and other students would just say,
OK, take what you want, would wethink that that behaviour would
stop or would it continue? And the same thing is with
Russia, if it gets what it wants, land other victories in
Ukraine, it would only continue.We would only see more
(14:58):
aggression in the future, more war in the future.
And now we should stop that bullying and we should stand
with Ukraine and make sure that there will be peace.
That would be just and fair and and the kind of deal that that
Ukraine could also support. And unfortunately, we are also
seeing this similar kind of changes within a society when it
(15:23):
comes to US. And I think this looks that we
are on a fast tracked, fast track when it comes to US
society. There are a lot of people that
are scared now, especially when it comes to universities, when
it comes to international students, when it comes to
people from from different countries.
There is this fear that is sensed that wasn't there before.
(15:50):
And we need to also notice this and also the changing
relationship between US and Europe.
At the same time, we have to understand that US is a strong
democracy. There are people that are
protesting, there are people that are that are responding.
So we need to of course believe and hope that that that strong
(16:14):
base of democracy will will carry through.
But do do you see, do you see signs of, of things that could
lead to repression there as wellin the use of federal agents in
the approach towards the media? You know, these are some of the
tactics, aren't they? We have seen US shifting now
(16:41):
with Trump second administrationstill from the outside.
It's always very difficult to gowithin one country and and say
what is right and what is wrong.It's a democracy.
People have voted, they have chosen their president, they
have chosen their leadership andthere will be other elections
(17:03):
and then people can choose again.
We need to make sure in Europe, from our perspective that that
we are strong ourselves, that wedon't just lean on to US and its
capabilities, but that we will have capabilities of our own,
especially when it comes to defence.
(17:23):
We need to boost our spending when it comes to defence and our
capabilities also when it comes to technology.
So we need to understand that the change between our
relationship with the US that isnot maybe permanent forever, but
it has changed now and that's a fact.
And now we have to act accordingly.
(17:45):
So strengthen our own capabilities and make sure that
we can take care of ourselves aswell.
And if you were still a a Prime Minister and you say we need
strong leadership and bold leadership in, in Europe, and
you you say we were wrong to, you know, not to call out where
Russia was going when it was clear where it was going.
(18:07):
Would you also now be standing up for European values,
rejecting Trump's national security strategy, calling it
out as meddling, supporting nationalist parties?
You know, is that is that what European leaders should do now?
Because we see this very strangesituation where they are
constantly appeasing Trump, flattering Trump, saying, you
(18:28):
know, they're very grateful to him, while his official policy
is literally now to undermine them and support populist
parties. Well, I think that there's of
course a healthy amount of realism with this.
And as a former leader, I do understand the actions of, of
(18:49):
leaders we have been appreciating and it has been
extremely important to have thatclose transatlantic
relationship. And of course, from European
perspective, we don't want to lose that.
We don't want to lose that relationship.
We don't want to drift apart as a democratic world because then
(19:10):
only the authoritarian regimes and powers would win.
So we need US and and we want tokeep and continue with this
transatlantic relations. But that doesn't mean that when
there are changes and shifts within the US administration or
when there are things that we don't accept, that doesn't of
(19:32):
course mean that we should keep our mouths mouth shut, that we
cannot say things from our perspective.
So of course it shouldn't mean that.
I think now we have to focus on strengthening Europe's
capabilities, as I said before, boosting our military
expenditure, also focusing on technology.
(19:53):
I think that we are now also witnessing the same thing that
happened with Russia and with energy.
When it comes to technology, we were extremely dependent on
Russian gas and oil and then it caused us a lot of problems when
the war full scaling weight invasion of Ukraine started
because Russia started to reducethose gas deliveries and
(20:16):
deliveries of energy already sixmonths before the war started.
And then our storages were not full and that was tried to use
against us and and to lower the support for Ukraine and its
citizens. And it caused high energy
prices, high inflation, a lot ofproblems to our societies, to
(20:36):
our citizens lives, to our businesses.
And now I see that we are maybe hopefully not, but but we are, I
think repeating the same mistakes when it comes to
technology. We have the talent, we have good
companies in Europe. We have good startups, we have
intelligent people, but we need to back them.
We need to make sure that there are European champions when it
(20:59):
comes to AI, when it comes to quantum technologies, when it
comes to space technologies, we need European champions.
And this need also public support.
And I'm not only talking about pouring money into these
companies. I'm talking about regulation,
discussion, cooperation between public and private sector.
(21:21):
Because if we only let China andUS lead the way when it comes to
technology, we will be vulnerable in the future.
And we shouldn't put ourselves in the same place with
technology than we did with energy.
Now the book is a really fascinating the chronicle of
your time in power of the big challenges you faced, which were
(21:43):
Ukraine joining NATO, the COVID pandemic.
But it's also obviously really fascinating about how you were
treated by others, being the youngest Prime Minister of the
time and being a woman as well in politics.
At the end, when you decide not to to to go ahead as a leader,
(22:07):
had you lost your belief that you could change the world or.
I hadn't lost my belief that I could change the world on my own
small part. Of course, as I said in the
beginning of this interview, nobody can change the world by
themselves. We need each other.
But I didn't maybe lose the belief that I can do things.
(22:29):
I had seen that I can do many things.
I think our government was extremely successful, not only
with COVID or the response of the war in Ukraine, but also we
fulfilled 90% of our extremely reformistic governmental
program. So of course I I have sown that
that we could do things and we could have, we did make change
(22:50):
in our society and hopefully also in the world in our small
part as Finland. But I had lost passion towards
politics and it was the combination of many things.
I have been working tirelessly as a Prime Minister 24/7 and I
had missed out a lot of my daughter's life in during those
(23:14):
four years. And of course when I took the
position, when I started in the office, I realized already then
that it would mean many things for my personal life that I was.
I would be at work all the time,but it took a tool and my
daughter is now 7 years old. She was just under 2 years old
when I started. And when we didn't enter first
(23:36):
in the elections, even though wecame popularity and more seats,
but we didn't enter first. It gave me a personal space and
possibly to revaluate my own life and my own choices.
And I decided then 2023 to step away from party leadership and
from the parliament because I wanted to spend more time with
(23:58):
my daughter, focus on other things, because our children are
small forever. They are children young, only
certain period of time. And, and I really value that
because I missed out four years and I didn't want to miss out
the next four years as well. So how much had the had the
press worn you down? I mean, you know, you, you write
(24:20):
about, I mean, you call them scandals that should be in sort
of inverted commas, really, because they're the most sort of
ridiculous scandals. They are Finnish scandals,
nothing too serious with corruption or misuse of Public
Music or power, but but they arescandals in Finnish standards.
They're about what you were wearing and what you were doing.
And you know the famous video ofyou at a party dancing, you
(24:45):
know, how much had that worn youdown?
How much was that also responsible for taking away your
your passion or your joy from the job?
It did of course effect and it had a heavy effect.
Not only the scandals, those were individual events and and
they lasted a certain period of time, too long for my my way of
(25:07):
thinking. I think they were exaggerated
quite a lot. So it went out of proportion, I
think all of those scandals, butstill it wore me down that the
media was more and more focused on my personal life and my
appearances and the nonsense andnot anymore only keeping the
(25:31):
focus on the work and the thingsthat I did.
And I think this is something that women in all all different
occupations face, that we are not only viewed through our
actions and through our performance when it comes to the
job itself, but our looks, our appearance, our behaviour is
(25:53):
also moralized and watched. And there were a lot of stories
concerning my personal life and my personal things and, and I
felt that very frustrating and very tiring because of course,
as a politician, you want to be viewed through your actions and
through your work and not about the things that don't actually
(26:14):
affect anybody else's life. And I think this is a general
thing for women and it's, it is tiring.
And we need to, we need to do something about this because we
cannot miss the talent of women and we cannot push them away
from participating because they are.
(26:34):
I may be afraid that what these things will do to my mental
health if I join political partyor run for office or or
participate in public debate. I think it's a real issue in
general and and we need to do something about it.
What? What would you advise of other
young women going into? There have never been and there
(26:57):
will never be like this right mold for women.
We have seen on the commentary, whether you are too grey or too
colorful or too old or too youngor too beautiful or too ugly or
something, there's always, always a lot of opinions what
women should be. And the thing that we should
(27:18):
actually tackle is the societal view and the societal attitude
that it is everybody's job to actually question women's own
choices. And it's nobody else's job to
question individual women choiceexcept the women that are making
the choices. So wear whatever you want, be as
(27:40):
colorful as you want. Live your lives just the way who
you are because there were neverwill be this mold, this
moralistic narrow mold that you will fit.
That's a trap and that's not realistic.
So I would just embrace with womenhood, with everything that
we have. Wear heels and make up or don't
(28:02):
if you don't want to, and just focus what you want to do.
We are actors, we are doers. We are not objects that
everybody else should watch and view and then judge.
I mean. Isn't, isn't your story, though,
quite off putting for a lot of people?
You know, you know, and politicsand public life is off putting
(28:22):
for people in all sorts of ways at the moment, partly because of
the scrutiny, partly because of,you know, the way people will be
criticized, partly because of the volatility of public
opinion. You might be in one minute and
out out the next. I mean, is it really an
attractive option to go into public life to try and change
the world? Well, especially nowadays when I
(28:43):
started in politics, we didn't yet, even though I'm not that
old compared to many politicians, but still social
media wasn't a thing when I started in in politics.
And nowadays it's a different world where people live, they
are constantly evaluated and they made quite harsh negative
(29:06):
attacks and and commentary online on social media
platforms. And especially if you're a woman
or if you're from minority group, you will meet extremely
hostile environment out there. For women, the commentary is
usually sexualized and it's alsousually can be very violent.
(29:26):
It can be massive attacks on individuals, and not only
politicians, just individuals raising their voices.
So we need to understand that this is a side of problem of our
democracies and we should be able to protect people, to
create safe spaces to participate for everybody and
not put this burden on individual shoulders, but do
(29:48):
changes in our legislation in our societies that would protect
and give this safe space to participate.
And I understand that that thesestories and also the the
scandals, how I was viewed or ortreated might be off putting for
somebody. They might be afraid of
(30:10):
participating. But I would only say that we
should never let our fears to guide us.
We should conquer our fears and change things because we can do
that. And as I said, it's it wasn't
easy before. It wasn't easy for the 19, first
(30:30):
19 we female parliamentarians that started their work in
Finland because we were the first country to grant women
full political rights, also the right to run for office.
It wasn't easy for them in our parliament, in our political
system to fight for childcare and elderly care, social and
healthcare, educational reforms,equality, making legislate
(30:53):
legislation, legislative changes.
It wasn't easy but they did it and I was able to enjoy that
when I was growing up. And now it is our job to make
the changes for the new generations, that they will have
it easier and not harder. And when we see this backlash on
women and girls and equality, weshouldn't accept that.
We should push back and we can. So let's not let the people that
(31:19):
are trying to silence us, onlineor otherwise, win, and not let's
not let our fear to guide us because we are powerful and we
can make things happen. Sana Marin, thank you very much
indeed. Thank you sharing your ways to
change the world. Thank you for your time.
Thank you.
Europe isn't as weak as Europe is acting.
If we only let China and US leadthe way when it comes to
technology, we will be vulnerable in the future and we
shouldn't put ourselves in the same place with technology than
we did with energy. It's nobody else's job to
question individual women choiceexcept the women that are making
(00:23):
the choices. So wear whatever you want, be as
colorful as you want. Live your lives just the way who
you are. Hello and welcome to Ways to
Change the World. I'm Kristian Guru Murphy, and
this is the podcast in which we talk to extraordinary people
about the big ideas in their lives and the events that have
(00:43):
helped shape them. My guest this week is the former
Prime Minister of Finland, Sun and Marine.
She became famous as the world'syoungest Prime Minister aged
just 34, and she faced controversy over slightly absurd
things like what she was wearingin photo shoots and a famous
video in which she was seen dancing at a party with friends.
(01:03):
She gave up politics and went onto work for the Tony Blair
Institute, working closely with Ukraine.
And she has written a memoir called Hope in Action, in which
it documents her constant efforts to try and change the
world. Sana, welcome.
How would you change the world? Well, I think this answer is
(01:24):
very obvious. If I would have all the power in
the world, I would stop climate change and loss of biodiversity.
The biggest challenge is that humankind is facing.
But unfortunately I'm just an individual and I can only work
on my own small part. But we need action on these
matters, or otherwise we don't have any future at all now.
(01:47):
You, you, you talk, you know, really impressively about
wanting to change the world. You know, unashamedly.
It's a big, big ambition. Where did that come from?
I mean, you have an unusual childhood.
I come from quite humble background.
We didn't have wealth, money or or that kind of family
connections that would usually lead to the career in politics.
(02:10):
So I come from quite humble background, but I when I was 20,
I just felt so passionate about the about the matters that I
cared deeply, like climate but also gender equality, human
rights. I was raised in a rainbow
family. My mother had a companion that
was the same sex and I saw the injustice is a far society.
(02:36):
When I was growing up, I grew upin the 80s and 90s and at that
time we didn't recognise different kind of families and
different kind of people equally.
And I wanted to change these things.
I wanted to do do reforms withinour society that meets everybody
at the same way, give give people the same rights and the
(02:58):
same opportunities. And I committed my life for this
change. So even though as growing up I
didn't think ever to become a politician, it looked very far
away from the reality that I came from old men in Gray suits
talking about important matters.Still, I felt so passionate
(03:18):
about the things that I saw thatwere wrong in our society and in
our world, and I wanted to change that.
And I also realized that it's not only my opportunity and my
possibility to do something, it is also my responsibility
because it wasn't easier before when the older generations we're
we're building our welfare society or, or doing the changes
(03:41):
in, in our world, I could also do things.
And it's my responsibility to dothings, I mean.
That that's what's really unusual though, because I think
most people who feel frustrated with the world or angry about
the way people are treated or anissue is not being tackled, they
they don't feel they have the power to make a difference.
(04:02):
You clearly did at a very young age.
Where did that belief and confidence come from?
Maybe it was more frustration. I think the strongest emotion,
one of the strongest emotions beside love, is actually feeling
unjust and feeling unjustice happening.
(04:24):
So I felt that unjustice that I saw around me, and I wanted to
act on those unjustices. So I think that people actually
have power. They can do things.
Nobody can do things alone. We need each other.
And I think this is also something that is wrong with our
societies and our world today. You know, Western democracies
(04:46):
that we are so individualized that we don't understand that we
need to work together. And together we can make
structural changes. Together we can make big changes
in our worlds. And as I mentioned before, it
wasn't easy to build the rules based international order after
the Second World War. It wasn't easy in the Nordic
(05:07):
countries to build our society in a way where women would have
the same equal opportunities than men.
It was never easy to build the welfare society.
It all took extremely amount of work and work together.
And I think we need to let people feel that that they can
(05:29):
do things, that they can act on things and that they can act on
the act on things together. Nobody can do things alone.
If we are alone, we are small and then we cannot cheat this
change. But working together with each
other and also feeling that responsibility of of acting, I
think that's the key. And the message of my book is
(05:50):
also that hope isn't something that just falls from the sky.
It is something that we create from our actions.
Now across Europe, a lot of people who are trying to bring
about change are moving right. They are moving towards populist
parties. You chose to be a Social
Democrat. Why did you choose that route
(06:12):
as? I said I come from such an
unprivileged background. My mother was raised in an
orphanage. She had me when she was 23,
broke up with my father only couple of years after because he
was a severe alcoholic. So we never had a lot of money,
we never had connections, we never had much, but we had the
(06:33):
welfare society. I was so grateful to be born in
Finland and then have those opportunities because we have
extremely good daycare system and schooling system and we have
universities that don't. You don't have to pay tuition.
So I had opportunities in my life because of the generations
that build it, our welfare model.
(06:54):
And I understood very early on that I wouldn't have any chance
in life without these structures.
So that's why I chose Social Democrats that had always been
building this equality in our society that enables everybody
to pursue their dreams, whateverare their backgrounds.
And I want that to also continuethis work, but also reform our
(07:15):
society because the world is changing, our societies are
changing. We cannot be stagnated and think
that all structures will work forever.
We also have to reform those. What do you think is the best
way to take on this shift to therise and the attraction of
populist parties, which many people argue is the the natural
(07:36):
kickback reaction to the failureof social democracy?
I think there is a pendulum movement always.
So when when we see that things aren't working the way we want
and then there's a pendulum movement to some other
direction, we are seeing this with the far right and the
(07:56):
populistic movements rising in Europe within our democracies,
but also wider authoritarian countries are questioning the
international rules based order.And there's this big, big bendo
movement, this frame where we are now seeing the geopolitical
changes. But I think we have to meet
people's frustration and their dissatisfaction and their
(08:20):
problems in their everyday livesvery seriously.
We shouldn't discard those. Those are real, real problems
that people are facing. They are worried about high
inflation. They are worried about are they
able to provide themselves and their families.
Do they have opportunities? Do their children have
opportunities and they see that they are not now better off than
(08:42):
they were before? That actually things are now
harder than it used to be. And I think we have maybe
discarded these feelings, these emotions.
And as I said before that one ofthe strongest feeling of a
people, of people is the feelingof unjustice.
(09:03):
And I think we haven't met the feeling of unjust is enough.
And that's when people turn to easy answers, to populism, to
far right, because they are of course blaming.
It's the immigrants, it's the others, it's somebody else
taking our opportunities and ourjobs.
That is not that. Those are not facts.
(09:24):
Those are not the correct answers, but they are easy
answers. And it's easier to lean on them
than to believe that there will be change gradually happening
within our society. So we need to meet people's
feelings, their their their emotions, their frustration and
their real, real problems that they are facing.
(09:45):
I. Mean it's easier said than done,
isn't it? And Social Democrats around
Europe will will say, well, we are trying our best, you know,
you, we can't wave a magic wand.We're facing, you know, deep
entrenched post pandemic problems, post banking crisis
problems. You know, so are, are you saying
Social Democrats need to be, youknow, more creative, bolder to,
(10:09):
to think about things that they haven't thought about before?
Because they, they will all say we're trying.
Definitely bolder. I see that we are now lacking,
and I'm not only talking about Social Democrats and and our
parties, but in general, we are lacking now real leadership in
Europe. Unfortunately, I think we have
been in this dream world, this naive, naive world where we want
(10:35):
to think and believe that thingscan go back the way it was.
That's not going to happen. The authoritarian mindset and
the shift to this idea that thatthere are strong men and strong
men and ideology that strength and forced matters.
And then we don't anymore have these rules that we have been
(10:57):
creating together. So there is this this this book
push back on on the rules based order.
And we have been naive and we haven't seen this change
happening so radically in our world.
And now we would need that strong leadership.
So you should always know your core values and then you should
(11:19):
have a clear direction based on that, that those values you
have. You should have understanding of
your realistic options. And the realistic option isn't
going back. The realistic options are on the
table. If, for example, we give Russia
what it wants when it comes to Ukraine, it will only continue
(11:40):
its aggression, as we've seen before when Russia annexed
Crimea and the response from theinternational community was so
weak. So we haven't actually realized
what are the realistic options. And then when you have those
options, then you could form a strategy that would work.
And now we are actually lacking in Europe in all fields of
leadership values, the direction, the realistic options
(12:04):
and also forming a strategy based on this.
So when Trump says Europe is weak, he's right.
Europe isn't as weak as Europe is acting.
We have a lot of resources, we have a lot of capabilities.
We have know how we have talent now.
We just should believe that we have, and we should stop acting
(12:28):
weak when we are actually much more stronger than we give
ourselves credit for. I know you, you've been now now
at the Blair Institute, you've been working closely with
Ukraine and you talk in the bookabout how Europe failed to take
on Russia's behaviour when it was when it was, you know, early
(12:48):
not not just the invasion of of Crimea in 2014, but Russia's
authoritarianism at home, it's oppression of LGBTQ plus
communities in Russia. Are are we perhaps in danger
though of having the same turn away?
Don't take it on attitude towards towards what's happening
(13:11):
in America. I think that we discarded quite
a long time to changes within Russian society.
Russia didn't turn to this aggressor that started the full
scale invasion in Ukraine overnight.
That happened gradually within 1510 to 15 years, first
(13:31):
suppressing minority groups suchas the L GB TIQ community,
attacking opposition, attacking journalists, silencing the civil
society. So it happened gradually and
Europe looked the other way because we'd wanted to do
business, especially when it came to energy with Russia.
So we discarded the things that changes that were happening.
(13:55):
Then we acted weak when Russia annexed Crimea.
And after those those reactions,weak reactions from us, Putin
thought that he can just March into Kiev, change the
government, turn it into some kind of Belarus and the
international community. Europe wouldn't do anything
because we we didn't do much before.
(14:16):
And now we are maybe repeating the same mistakes.
If we are not careful. We should see when it comes to
the situation in Ukraine and nowthere's peace negotiations and
peace discussions between the countries.
We should understand that if there's a bully in the class
that bullies everybody around and steals other students
(14:38):
things, and the teacher and other students would just say,
OK, take what you want, would wethink that that behaviour would
stop or would it continue? And the same thing is with
Russia, if it gets what it wants, land other victories in
Ukraine, it would only continue.We would only see more
(14:58):
aggression in the future, more war in the future.
And now we should stop that bullying and we should stand
with Ukraine and make sure that there will be peace.
That would be just and fair and and the kind of deal that that
Ukraine could also support. And unfortunately, we are also
seeing this similar kind of changes within a society when it
(15:23):
comes to US. And I think this looks that we
are on a fast tracked, fast track when it comes to US
society. There are a lot of people that
are scared now, especially when it comes to universities, when
it comes to international students, when it comes to
people from from different countries.
There is this fear that is sensed that wasn't there before.
(15:50):
And we need to also notice this and also the changing
relationship between US and Europe.
At the same time, we have to understand that US is a strong
democracy. There are people that are
protesting, there are people that are that are responding.
So we need to of course believe and hope that that that strong
(16:14):
base of democracy will will carry through.
But do do you see, do you see signs of, of things that could
lead to repression there as wellin the use of federal agents in
the approach towards the media? You know, these are some of the
tactics, aren't they? We have seen US shifting now
(16:41):
with Trump second administrationstill from the outside.
It's always very difficult to gowithin one country and and say
what is right and what is wrong.It's a democracy.
People have voted, they have chosen their president, they
have chosen their leadership andthere will be other elections
(17:03):
and then people can choose again.
We need to make sure in Europe, from our perspective that that
we are strong ourselves, that wedon't just lean on to US and its
capabilities, but that we will have capabilities of our own,
especially when it comes to defence.
(17:23):
We need to boost our spending when it comes to defence and our
capabilities also when it comes to technology.
So we need to understand that the change between our
relationship with the US that isnot maybe permanent forever, but
it has changed now and that's a fact.
And now we have to act accordingly.
(17:45):
So strengthen our own capabilities and make sure that
we can take care of ourselves aswell.
And if you were still a a Prime Minister and you say we need
strong leadership and bold leadership in, in Europe, and
you you say we were wrong to, you know, not to call out where
Russia was going when it was clear where it was going.
(18:07):
Would you also now be standing up for European values,
rejecting Trump's national security strategy, calling it
out as meddling, supporting nationalist parties?
You know, is that is that what European leaders should do now?
Because we see this very strangesituation where they are
constantly appeasing Trump, flattering Trump, saying, you
(18:28):
know, they're very grateful to him, while his official policy
is literally now to undermine them and support populist
parties. Well, I think that there's of
course a healthy amount of realism with this.
And as a former leader, I do understand the actions of, of
(18:49):
leaders we have been appreciating and it has been
extremely important to have thatclose transatlantic
relationship. And of course, from European
perspective, we don't want to lose that.
We don't want to lose that relationship.
We don't want to drift apart as a democratic world because then
(19:10):
only the authoritarian regimes and powers would win.
So we need US and and we want tokeep and continue with this
transatlantic relations. But that doesn't mean that when
there are changes and shifts within the US administration or
when there are things that we don't accept, that doesn't of
(19:32):
course mean that we should keep our mouths mouth shut, that we
cannot say things from our perspective.
So of course it shouldn't mean that.
I think now we have to focus on strengthening Europe's
capabilities, as I said before, boosting our military
expenditure, also focusing on technology.
(19:53):
I think that we are now also witnessing the same thing that
happened with Russia and with energy.
When it comes to technology, we were extremely dependent on
Russian gas and oil and then it caused us a lot of problems when
the war full scaling weight invasion of Ukraine started
because Russia started to reducethose gas deliveries and
(20:16):
deliveries of energy already sixmonths before the war started.
And then our storages were not full and that was tried to use
against us and and to lower the support for Ukraine and its
citizens. And it caused high energy
prices, high inflation, a lot ofproblems to our societies, to
(20:36):
our citizens lives, to our businesses.
And now I see that we are maybe hopefully not, but but we are, I
think repeating the same mistakes when it comes to
technology. We have the talent, we have good
companies in Europe. We have good startups, we have
intelligent people, but we need to back them.
We need to make sure that there are European champions when it
(20:59):
comes to AI, when it comes to quantum technologies, when it
comes to space technologies, we need European champions.
And this need also public support.
And I'm not only talking about pouring money into these
companies. I'm talking about regulation,
discussion, cooperation between public and private sector.
(21:21):
Because if we only let China andUS lead the way when it comes to
technology, we will be vulnerable in the future.
And we shouldn't put ourselves in the same place with
technology than we did with energy.
Now the book is a really fascinating the chronicle of
your time in power of the big challenges you faced, which were
(21:43):
Ukraine joining NATO, the COVID pandemic.
But it's also obviously really fascinating about how you were
treated by others, being the youngest Prime Minister of the
time and being a woman as well in politics.
At the end, when you decide not to to to go ahead as a leader,
(22:07):
had you lost your belief that you could change the world or.
I hadn't lost my belief that I could change the world on my own
small part. Of course, as I said in the
beginning of this interview, nobody can change the world by
themselves. We need each other.
But I didn't maybe lose the belief that I can do things.
(22:29):
I had seen that I can do many things.
I think our government was extremely successful, not only
with COVID or the response of the war in Ukraine, but also we
fulfilled 90% of our extremely reformistic governmental
program. So of course I I have sown that
that we could do things and we could have, we did make change
(22:50):
in our society and hopefully also in the world in our small
part as Finland. But I had lost passion towards
politics and it was the combination of many things.
I have been working tirelessly as a Prime Minister 24/7 and I
had missed out a lot of my daughter's life in during those
(23:14):
four years. And of course when I took the
position, when I started in the office, I realized already then
that it would mean many things for my personal life that I was.
I would be at work all the time,but it took a tool and my
daughter is now 7 years old. She was just under 2 years old
when I started. And when we didn't enter first
(23:36):
in the elections, even though wecame popularity and more seats,
but we didn't enter first. It gave me a personal space and
possibly to revaluate my own life and my own choices.
And I decided then 2023 to step away from party leadership and
from the parliament because I wanted to spend more time with
(23:58):
my daughter, focus on other things, because our children are
small forever. They are children young, only
certain period of time. And, and I really value that
because I missed out four years and I didn't want to miss out
the next four years as well. So how much had the had the
press worn you down? I mean, you know, you, you write
(24:20):
about, I mean, you call them scandals that should be in sort
of inverted commas, really, because they're the most sort of
ridiculous scandals. They are Finnish scandals,
nothing too serious with corruption or misuse of Public
Music or power, but but they arescandals in Finnish standards.
They're about what you were wearing and what you were doing.
And you know the famous video ofyou at a party dancing, you
(24:45):
know, how much had that worn youdown?
How much was that also responsible for taking away your
your passion or your joy from the job?
It did of course effect and it had a heavy effect.
Not only the scandals, those were individual events and and
they lasted a certain period of time, too long for my my way of
(25:07):
thinking. I think they were exaggerated
quite a lot. So it went out of proportion, I
think all of those scandals, butstill it wore me down that the
media was more and more focused on my personal life and my
appearances and the nonsense andnot anymore only keeping the
(25:31):
focus on the work and the thingsthat I did.
And I think this is something that women in all all different
occupations face, that we are not only viewed through our
actions and through our performance when it comes to the
job itself, but our looks, our appearance, our behaviour is
(25:53):
also moralized and watched. And there were a lot of stories
concerning my personal life and my personal things and, and I
felt that very frustrating and very tiring because of course,
as a politician, you want to be viewed through your actions and
through your work and not about the things that don't actually
(26:14):
affect anybody else's life. And I think this is a general
thing for women and it's, it is tiring.
And we need to, we need to do something about this because we
cannot miss the talent of women and we cannot push them away
from participating because they are.
(26:34):
I may be afraid that what these things will do to my mental
health if I join political partyor run for office or or
participate in public debate. I think it's a real issue in
general and and we need to do something about it.
What? What would you advise of other
young women going into? There have never been and there
(26:57):
will never be like this right mold for women.
We have seen on the commentary, whether you are too grey or too
colorful or too old or too youngor too beautiful or too ugly or
something, there's always, always a lot of opinions what
women should be. And the thing that we should
(27:18):
actually tackle is the societal view and the societal attitude
that it is everybody's job to actually question women's own
choices. And it's nobody else's job to
question individual women choiceexcept the women that are making
the choices. So wear whatever you want, be as
(27:40):
colorful as you want. Live your lives just the way who
you are because there were neverwill be this mold, this
moralistic narrow mold that you will fit.
That's a trap and that's not realistic.
So I would just embrace with womenhood, with everything that
we have. Wear heels and make up or don't
(28:02):
if you don't want to, and just focus what you want to do.
We are actors, we are doers. We are not objects that
everybody else should watch and view and then judge.
I mean. Isn't, isn't your story, though,
quite off putting for a lot of people?
You know, you know, and politicsand public life is off putting
(28:22):
for people in all sorts of ways at the moment, partly because of
the scrutiny, partly because of,you know, the way people will be
criticized, partly because of the volatility of public
opinion. You might be in one minute and
out out the next. I mean, is it really an
attractive option to go into public life to try and change
the world? Well, especially nowadays when I
(28:43):
started in politics, we didn't yet, even though I'm not that
old compared to many politicians, but still social
media wasn't a thing when I started in in politics.
And nowadays it's a different world where people live, they
are constantly evaluated and they made quite harsh negative
(29:06):
attacks and and commentary online on social media
platforms. And especially if you're a woman
or if you're from minority group, you will meet extremely
hostile environment out there. For women, the commentary is
usually sexualized and it's alsousually can be very violent.
(29:26):
It can be massive attacks on individuals, and not only
politicians, just individuals raising their voices.
So we need to understand that this is a side of problem of our
democracies and we should be able to protect people, to
create safe spaces to participate for everybody and
not put this burden on individual shoulders, but do
(29:48):
changes in our legislation in our societies that would protect
and give this safe space to participate.
And I understand that that thesestories and also the the
scandals, how I was viewed or ortreated might be off putting for
somebody. They might be afraid of
(30:10):
participating. But I would only say that we
should never let our fears to guide us.
We should conquer our fears and change things because we can do
that. And as I said, it's it wasn't
easy before. It wasn't easy for the 19, first
(30:30):
19 we female parliamentarians that started their work in
Finland because we were the first country to grant women
full political rights, also the right to run for office.
It wasn't easy for them in our parliament, in our political
system to fight for childcare and elderly care, social and
healthcare, educational reforms,equality, making legislate
(30:53):
legislation, legislative changes.
It wasn't easy but they did it and I was able to enjoy that
when I was growing up. And now it is our job to make
the changes for the new generations, that they will have
it easier and not harder. And when we see this backlash on
women and girls and equality, weshouldn't accept that.
We should push back and we can. So let's not let the people that
(31:19):
are trying to silence us, onlineor otherwise, win, and not let's
not let our fear to guide us because we are powerful and we
can make things happen. Sana Marin, thank you very much
indeed. Thank you sharing your ways to
change the world. Thank you for your time.
Thank you.
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