August 22, 2025 • 33 mins
After a summer of Britpop revival provoked by the Oasis concerts, nineties legends Suede are about to take over the Southbank Centre in London for a series of events.In this episode of Ways to Change the World, Suede frontman Brett Anderson speaks to Krishnan Guru-Murthy ahead of the release of their tenth album ‘Antidepressants' and explains how his writing continues to evolve to the times and his age.
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(00:00):
Nostalgia has never meant anything to me.
I'm I'm never interested in in in what we did in the past.
I'm interested in what we're doing in the future.
It would be really sad if I was still trying to write about
being a 20 year old man in my 50s.
So I try and write about the things that concern me now do.
You want to deliberately avoid politics.
(00:21):
No, I don't want to deliberatelyavoid politics, but I think it's
become increasingly tribal and increasingly toxic, and it's
very difficult to talk about. Hello and welcome to Ways to
Change the World. I'm Christian Guru Murphy and
this is the podcast in which we talk to extraordinary people
about the big ideas in their lives and the events that have
(00:43):
helped shape them. My guest this week is Brett
Anderson, the front man of Suede, who are releasing their
tenth album called Antidepressants and are taking
over the South Bank Centre in London for a series of events in
September. Now that of course will be after
a summer of Brit pop revival provoked by the Oasis concerts.
That whole movement was, of course, something Suede were
(01:05):
inescapably associated with but always a bit disdainful of.
Suede remain unmistakable in their sound, but Brett's writing
continues to evolve to the timesand his age.
Never acutely political, it is nonetheless clearly social
commentary and it's a delight towelcome you to the studio.
It's a pleasure to be here, Krishna.
So you've called this. In fact, there's a track on the
(01:26):
album called Broken Music for Broken.
People. Yeah.
What do you? Mean by that?
I sort of feel that sort of society is on a is a kind of a
bit of a breaking point. At the moment.
It feels like we're in a bit of a pressure cooker and I don't
quite know what the next stage is, but it, I wanted to reflect
some of that. I wanted to reflect some of the
(01:47):
sort of 21st century angst that I've that, that kind of like
bleeds through into my life and lots of people's lives.
I think. And I think as a, as a writer,
you're, you know, it's, it's not, it's very different from
being, from being a journalist. You're not looking for specific
questions and specific answers. You're picking up on, on, on
kind of like your senses are picking up on, on emotions and
(02:09):
things. And it's much more of a kind of
a impressionistic view of the world that you're making.
So I'm kind of like it's writingsongs is very much about
expressing feelings. So I was trying to express some
of those feelings. And what do you think that 21st
century angst is? Where does it come from?
I don't know, I'm not a journalist, so I can't, I can't
really, I can't really pinpoint to feel it, but I know it's
(02:31):
there. And so music is music is a blunt
tool in lots of ways. You know, songwriting is a very
blunt tool. You haven't got the kind of like
you haven't got the kind of nuances that you had.
You might have, if you're writing prose, you're tied to
rhyme and you're tied to tied torhythm, all these sorts of
things. And, and because of that, music
is a very blunt tool. But when it kind of strikes the
right chord, it's incredibly powerful.
(02:53):
And 3 or 4 words, kind of like song with a, with a, with a
certain melody can, can, can really be incredibly powerful
actually. So I kind of, I'm always
searching as a writer for, for, for those little moments, those
little moments of magic. I mean, a a swayed record is is
a mistake of the a swayed record, you know, I mean, you're
very much still the rock band that you became famous for,
(03:17):
although obviously there there'svariety and development a lot
along the way. But I mean, is that a conscious
thing that you have to, you know, we are basically doing 3
or 4 minute rock songs, of course.
I think you've, you've become sort of like more conscious of,
of your own identity. And I think we become, as you
get older, you're able to sort of analyze that and able to,
able to pinpoint what it is thatmake that gives you something
(03:40):
different from other bands. So kind of musically, there's,
there's, there's things in, in the in the makeup of our music
that we can kind of identify. There's a thing called the suede
chord. And the suede chord is, is what
we put in it often at the end ofa chorus, at the start of the
chorus. And it's basically a chord that
takes it out of the key and it kind of shifts and it kind of
like has a has a bit of a jolt. So there's like little musical
(04:01):
devices we put in there that gives us our own sound, I
suppose, as well as other thingslike that.
I mean, the nature of my voice, it's quite, it's not, I don't
have a kind of like a normal sort of like rock voice.
It's a different kind of the wayI use it and stretch it and
stuff like that. It's different.
So yeah, I think you kind of, you just lean into it and you
learn, you learn to sort of respect what's, what's unique
(04:21):
about you, I think. Actually, the suede chord what?
What is it, suede chord? I don't really know.
It's just something that kind oflike came about and then we kind
of realized it was there, you know?
Yeah. And do you know when to use it?
I think so, yeah, maybe sometimes we overuse it, but
it's a it's a thing that's therein the in the suede's makeup.
Yeah. And you, yeah, I mean, you
mentioned your voice. I mean like how?
(04:42):
Because again, your voice soundsit's, it's, you know, it's got
this very, very distinctive sound and very distinctive
production. Yeah.
On, on the records, yeah. Is that difficult to maintain as
you get older or you does your voice change?
I see what you mean. No, my voice, your voice does
change. There's a, there's a tendency
(05:02):
for people to sort of think thatas you get older, you can't
reach the notes, all that kind of thing.
And that's not really true. When you're in the middle of a
tour and you've been singing forthree nights in a row, your
voice gets a bit ragged. But I kind of like, I can, my
falsetto is still pretty good and I, I think I can still reach
the notes and I kind of learn how to use it now.
I learn how to, I learn on what part of the sort of register
(05:24):
it's, it's comfortable. And I kind of, I kind of, I can
kind of like sort of lean into a, a kind of like more of a kind
of sort of interesting baritone now, whereas before I wasn't
really in control of that part of my voice.
So you just sort of experience is a wonderful thing.
It kind of like it just teaches you how to learn to play your
instrument. My instrument is my voice.
(05:45):
The the new album is called AntiDepressed.
Yeah, What? Why?
It's a, it's a, it's a slightly cheeky title because it's almost
like the, the, the phrase antidepressants, excuse me, kind
of refers to the 11 songs on, onthe record.
It's supposed to be like, you know, these, these 11 songs are
the antidepressants kind of thing.
So that's one level of the, of the, of the title, but also I, I
(06:09):
kind of wanted to sort of hint at and reflect the, the kind of
like there's a sort of, there's a sort of medicalization of
society that I find fascinating,that kind of sense that, that,
that the human condition is being turned into a
prescription. And I kind of wanted to reflect
some of that. I find certain phrases like
something like personality disorder.
That phrase is really interesting because personality
(06:30):
disorder order is basically can cover any any sort of part of
the range of being a human beingand do.
You have any diagnosis yourself?None that I'm willing to share.
So I find that I find the whole medicalization of the human
condition really fascinating. And, and, and, and the sense of
(06:51):
depression being something that you can cure.
The pill is really, is really interesting.
And I think in the lots of ways it's quite deluded.
So I think there's that. I think, I think sadness and and
unhappiness and anxiety are justnecessary parts of being a human
being. And I mean, did you always feel
(07:11):
that sort of need for antidepressant if you like?
I mean, is that part of, you know, why you took drugs when
you were younger and all that kind of stuff?
Well, I don't know about that, but it's I think that there's
different definitions of antidepressants.
You know that you can use music as my antidepressant in lots of
ways. I'm still completely in love
with music. And you have to be if you're if
(07:32):
you're pursuing a career sort of30 plus years down the line sort
of thing. So music is an incredibly
powerful thing for me. And I, I, I use it like, like
I'd use a pill. I can wake up in the morning and
I put a record on and, you know,I little go through the whole
day listening to music and it's,you know, it's a, it's a, it's
a, it's a wonderful thing. And and how different is
(07:53):
listening to music to writing music when it comes to your
mental health? Much, much easier to listen to
music than writing music. I mean, we spend, we, we, we
write a lot of songs. So we work very hard at what we
do. So this new album, we've
probably been writing it for about 3 years now.
(08:13):
Every album takes at least two or two or three years to write.
I know we throw a lot of songs away.
We we probably wrote 50 songs for this album and end up using
about 10 of them. So it's about 5:00 to 1:00 ratio
kind of thing. 4 to 1 or whatever it is.
My math isn't as good as it was.What?
What makes you throw them away, and what happens to the
(08:33):
throwing? Away songs they just get, they,
they get, they just die. They get, they just die gasping,
you know, for air in the in the kind of in the bag sort of
thing. They they sometimes get reused.
Rarely. I don't mind.
I'm quite, I'm quite, I'm quite sort of ruthless.
I don't, I don't. I'm not particularly sentimental
(08:55):
for songs that don't get used. So how do you judge?
I mean, how do you decide that? You, you, you just have to be
objective. You just have to sort of like,
say, is this good enough? You know, I'm not kind of like,
I'm not. I don't over romanticize what I
do. I'm kind of like, if a song's
good, I'll kind of, it'll be good because it's good sort of
thing. That's just an instinctive thing
and you learn how to judge that he's a better as you get older,
(09:18):
I think, you know, I think it's harder to judge when you're
young. When you're young as a band, you
go through phases. You go through this phase of
struggle where you can't really write songs and suddenly you can
write songs. And then you go through what's
called the imperial phase where where basically everything you
write is kind of gold dust. And then you go through another
phase where you think everythingyou write is gold dust, but it's
not. And you kind of, that's when you
(09:39):
that's when the mistakes start happening.
And then if you stick around long enough, you go through
another phase where you're able to have objective kind of like
real objectivity about your work.
And we're at that stage now. So I kind of like I, I kind of
think I know what the good stuffis, so.
What is the gold dust phase then?
What creates that? I don't know, it's just some.
Weird alchemy I. Wish I knew.
Yeah, yeah. It's it's experience.
(10:01):
It's it's it's a bit of inspiration.
It's a lot of perspiration as well.
What was your goal dust phase then?
Well, I mean the imperial phase with, with with every band, it's
the early years. It's, it's kind of like for us,
it was like the early 90s or whatever, that kind of period
where everything you wrote was just Oh yeah.
There's another great one. There's another grammar.
Didn't really have to think about it too much.
And I think you're, you're much more instinctive in those days.
(10:24):
As you get older. You have to learn you, you have
to sort of learn it a bit more, a bit more technically and learn
a bit and learn to be in controlof your, of your objectivity a
bit more, I think. Your your background, your
working class backgrounds was always important to your writing
and you've written about it in books as well in in great
(10:48):
detail. How?
What is your class identity now and how important is it?
What class identity? Well, I mean, class is such a
weird thing to to to, to, to pinpoint, isn't it?
It's so it's so hard that all the, the, the myriad of things
that go, go to make up class. It's so it's so hard to really
identify. I think of myself as working
(11:10):
class because that's how I was born.
I was, but you know, I was born to, to, to a very poor family.
My father was a, was a taxi driver.
We lived in a little council house in Sussex.
But it was an unusual upbringingbecause it wasn't a conventional
working class upbringing. We didn't live in a tower
blocking Hackney. We didn't live in a in a mining
(11:31):
town in the north of England. It was a sort of a council
estate on the edge of a sort of Sussex village.
So it's a weird kind of thing and that.
Feels really nice. I've cycled.
Yeah, it is. It's lovely, but not the bit I
lived in, you know, so and my mum and dad were very cultured.
So my father was a was a taxi driver, but he was a classical
music obsessive, not just a fan.He was a clan.
(11:52):
He used to go to lists, friends lists, birthplace every year
and, you know, pay homage to friends list, this sort of
thing. And my mother was an artist so
that the, the house, even thoughthere was no money, we were, we
were, we were sort of like financially poor, but culturally
rich. And I was exposed to lots of
arts and my sister became an artist and all these sorts of
things. So it's a weird kind of
(12:12):
contradiction of, of, of, of of things that that go to my
upbringing. So I think of myself as working
class, but obviously the values that my family had weren't
working class or not conventionally working class.
How, how do you feel? I mean, during Suede's sort of
emergence and sort of initial stardom, we were in a period of
(12:33):
Britain in which, you know, people wanted class to
disappear. You know, there was great social
progress. We were, you know, gay rights,
anti racism, All of these thingswere kind of like on the March
and we were heading towards somesort of weird classless society
in which everyone would be middle class.
(12:54):
That was sort of Arrested Development, wasn't it?
Shortly after that. And, and if you look at where we
are now, the broken people we are now, class seems sort of
important again. You know, it's the thing that
defines a lot of our culture wars, our politics.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, I think people are always
looking for identity, aren't they?
You know, they, they every, everyone's always looking for
(13:14):
to, to, to, to sort of like be part of a tribe.
And that's what, that's what happens in politics and that's
what happens with religion. That's what happens with music
as well. And I think that's one of the
reasons that the music is still such an incredibly live music,
especially it's such a powerful force because it gives people a
forum to to to to identify with groups of people.
(13:35):
Also, the other thing interesting thing about live
music is I think that it gives people a, a space to let go.
I think that's really important.I think society now feels
there's a sense of suppression about society that I feel.
I feel as though as a, as a citizen of the 21st century,
you're being issued with commands.
(13:56):
You know, you get on the train and you're being told to see it,
say it's sorted. You put your headphones on,
you're saying disconnected, connected.
It's this sort of series of commands you've been issued and
that sense you lose when you're in a, in a gig and when you're
experiencing live music. Because you can kind of like,
you let yourself go and become primal again, but within a sort
(14:16):
of a kind of safe framework. In a way.
You know, you can kind of like, you can become the sort of the
mad sort of animalistic sort of version of yourself that you're
only allowed to within a, withina, within a gig and then kind.
Of and it is tribal, you're witha bunch of people who feel the
same way. Yeah, exactly.
With a group of people and that's that search for for
(14:36):
identity. And that's what, you know, that
sort of thing. I guess when people were sitting
around a campfire, you know, 40,000 years ago and there was
kind of like Saber toothed tigers kind of like circling
them and stuff like that. And they were, you know, they
were sort of singing songs and, and there was the same kind of
thing. It's that search for that kind
of like identity, you know? So how, how do you feel about
this Brit pop revival this summer with all these huge gigs
(14:58):
and lots of live music and, you know, people enjoying themselves
in a nostalgic way? That's fine for them.
With respect, it doesn't mean anything to me.
Nostalgia. Nostalgia has never meant
anything to me. I'm I'm never interested in, in,
in what we did in the past. I'm interested in what we're
doing in the future, with all due respect, that everyone has
(15:21):
to get what they can out of these things.
And that's absolutely fine. Totally respect that.
Suede, it's all about our next record.
It's all about the latest thing we're doing.
I love that about Suede. I love that sense of sense of
sense of, of, of industry that we have.
We're, we're kind of, we work very hard.
That's why we're sort of 10 albums in and still loving what
(15:42):
we're doing kind of thing. Nostalgia.
Yeah, fine. I'm I'm proud of what we did in
the 90s. Lots of other bands, they seem
to just be going around the in circles doing the same thing
that they did in the 90s. That's fine, whatever.
That's what they want to do. I don't, I don't have any
criticism for that. I don't particularly want to
want to. Do that.
Do you enjoy being nostalgic about the music you love?
(16:03):
Yourself. So of course, because you know,
there's there's a there's a phase in your life, isn't there?
Where, where music, you know, when you're 1516, that kind of
age in your life and those songs, they speak to you in a
way that they songs will never speak to you again, you know,
and you will always be reminded of those times in your life
through those songs. And so of course, yeah, it's an
(16:24):
incredibly powerful thing, of course.
So how how will your live shows be different than to you know
what we're you know what our Oasis is doing and cast and
everyone? Else is going to be different
because they'll, they'll have songs that are written in 2025.
Yeah. And songs that are written in
1995, Yeah. That's, that's, that's how
they'll be different. Obviously we still play old
songs because there's certain old hits that you just have to
(16:46):
play And, and to be honest, things like Animal Nitro,
beautiful ones, these kind of songs, they're, they're great
songs to, to, to get the audience going.
And we use them as tools in the,in the set.
They kind of like, you know, they get, they get the crowd
rabid and, and I like hysteria in gigs.
Hysteria is really important. You know, I don't like gigs to
be a kind of a sort of a sort oftoo intellectual an affair.
(17:10):
It's got to be passionate. It's got to be animalistic.
How easy is it to be hysterical in the South Bank Centre then?
Well, it's sort of a cultural. Find out.
Yeah, there are seats and thingslike that.
You. Know, I mean there are seats,
but I we've done quite a few seated venues on the on the last
tour and I always get the crowd to just come down the front and
I just, you know, get out of your seats, come down.
(17:31):
It's got to be sway. Gigs have got to be mad, you
know, and our fans know what to do, so hopefully be OK.
And you you you do very loud andand also quite quiet acoustic.
Moments as well. Yeah.
I think live music is is about those extremes.
I think it's, it's, it's all about, you know, a barrage of
noise and then kind of intimacy or something like that, you
(17:53):
know, just it's all about those,those dynamics, I think.
Because what, what are you getting out of constantly
writing? You know, there are a lot of
people who say, well look, you know, you've got a Canon of
work. You don't really need to be
writing any new stuff. You can make a great living and
have lots of fun and go out on stage and all the rest of it
playing what you've done. So what?
What is it you get in terms of the kick or the stimulation or
(18:15):
whatever it is from continuing to?
Do new stuff. It's it's just, I think a writer
needs to write. It's as simple as that.
You kind of like, you know, whenyou're in a band, you're, you're
both a writer and a performer and performing things is they're
both just as important as each other.
But I need, I can't, I couldn't just have one of those things.
I need the, I need the, I need to create as well.
(18:37):
And the search for the perfect song is it is, it is a really
addictive thing. Actually.
It's really that that kind of like you're, you're, you're sort
of like reaching, you're reaching, you're reaching,
you're trying to, you're trying to capture this sort of elusive
butterfly. But when you get it in your net
and you get that chorus and you get that melody, it's there's,
there's no feeling like it and. Do you think people are sort of
(18:58):
looking at your words now the way that I hope so.
People used to, well, the way you used to kind of have to
because you'd read the album andyou'd see the the lyrics on the
album's sleeve and all that kindof stuff, which is obviously not
how people listen to music now. So if you want to go and see
what it is you're precisely saying, you've got to look it
up. Yeah.
Yeah. And do you think people do?
(19:19):
I think they do. I mean it, it, I mean words in
music fascinate me because I think there's certain bands that
it doesn't really matter what the words are.
The words are just acting as a sort of like, almost like a, a
sort of device for the, for the,for the singer to play his
instrument almost, you know, andthat's fine.
And there's lots of great music that isn't particularly
(19:40):
literary. And then there's other bands
that the words mean everything, you know, it's, it's, it's, it
very much depends on the band. But I don't, I, I'm kind of, I,
I think we're sort of somewhere in between the, the, the I, I've
never, I, I don't write sort of pieces of prose or poetry and
then sort of like force music onto them.
I kind of, it's very much a, kind of like a, a collaborative
(20:01):
affair between the melody and the, and the words.
But words are very important to me.
The find finding the key the most used, you know, is a, is a
really is, is a really wonderfulthing.
I spend a lot of time scribblinginto my notebook, listening to
phrases, stealing phrases from films and books and things like
that. And.
You know, ripping them off. And you know, that's what art
(20:22):
is, It's appropriation, isn't it?
But you've got to be clever about it.
I. Mean the the beginning of this
record sort of begins with humandisintegration?
Yes. Is that how you feel?
You know, are you, are you worried about being your age?
I think as you get older, I'm 58now and I think, you know, as
(20:43):
you sort of like, you know, I'm nearly 60 and, and you have to
be aware of mortality and you have to be aware of your own
mortality. But I don't think that that's
necessary a morbid thing. I think it's AII treat.
I treat sort of the sense of mortality in the same sense that
memento Mori is used in art. So memento Mori is that it's,
(21:07):
you know, it's as we know, it's a, it's a reminder of death,
quite literally. But that reminder of death
enables you to seize the moment and to live life to its full.
And I think that's a really important attitude to have to
life, that there's not much timeleft.
But that's not a bad thing. Live life to the full.
And that's what, that's one of the messages of the song,
(21:29):
messages of the album, I suppose.
Do you think that brackets you in terms of who's who's going to
be drawn to the music? Are you writing for your own
generation now? Am I writing for my own
generation? But no, I don't feel that sense
that I am. I'm writing for myself and that
that's projected onto people my age.
(21:49):
I like to think that that obviously I'm, I'm aware that
there's most of our listeners are are, are kind of my
generation maybe a little bit younger, but we also do to do
attract quite a lot of younger people as well.
So they obviously connect with it in a different way.
But yeah, I think every, every band sort of has to inevitably
writes for their own generation because they're writing for
themselves. So.
(22:10):
When you say you're writing for yourself, what do you mean?
I mean, do you mean literally you're writing for yourself
because. No, I mean that that you reflect
you, you, you, you kind of use yourself as a sounding board to
to explore parts of the human condition.
So, so when you're a young writer in your 20s, you're
writing about sort of being a 20year old man.
(22:31):
It would be really sad if I was still trying to write about
being a 20 year old man in my 50s.
So I try and write about the things that concern me now as a
5058 year old man. So I write about, I think you've
always got songwriting is about accessing passion.
And when you're young, that passion is sort of things like,
(22:53):
Oh, my girlfriend's left just left me and oh, I feel a bit
lonely and all these sorts of things, you know?
And when you get older, your passion, my passions are things
like my family, right? So you it's a completely
different sort of passion, obviously.
But it's a very different kind of passion, isn't it?
But it's because you might just find yourself writing about your
irritating children or. Exactly.
Yeah, Yeah, yeah. So I'm, I write about my family
(23:15):
a lot. I write, you know, the songs
about my son that I write because that's the, these things
obsess me because that's the, the, the those, that's where I
found real passion. And I write about the fragility
of family as well, the kind of like the paranoia of family.
I think there's a, there's a tendency for people to sort of
see that writing about one's family is a, is a kind of like a
(23:37):
cozy affair and that you always have to write about a family in
a, in a kind of nice cozy sense.And I like to look for the, the
darker elements of, of family life.
I never, I never looked for themin a, in, in my day-to-day as a,
as a, as a husband and a father.I, I, I, I, I never let that
into my, into my train of thought.
(23:58):
But as a writer, I think that's a really interesting place to
find, I mean. I've seen you sort of talking
about right as a writer, kind ofputting yourself in.
Yeah, yeah. Yeah.
And is that is that your your, your sort of your kick if you
like? Yeah, I think, I think just sort
of looking at the world from different through different
through different eyes. Yeah, that's I've always tried
(24:20):
to do that from the very early days.
I also put myself in different people's, you know, if they come
from different perspectives. Some of the songs are about me,
but from other people's points of view, you know, I think
that's kind of keeps it fresh and it keeps it interesting.
And it also I think keeps it, it, it fluid.
I think, I think keeping songs interesting.
Songs are interesting when you don't quite know what they're
about. As soon as I personally know
(24:42):
what a song's about, I kind of, I get a bit bored of it
sometimes I find that it's not interesting to me.
I like it when I, when I work out 20 years later what my songs
are about, you know, and sometimes they do reveal to
themselves, to me very slowly. Which ones have surprised you?
Well, there's a song on the debut album called The Next
Life, and I didn't really realize it was about my mother
(25:03):
until quite recently. And you know, and these songs
that they've, they've got these different, they reveal
themselves over a long period oftime.
Just explain that I mean. Well, it's, it's a song about
lost, but it's specifically about my mother, so, you know, I
don't know it. Wasn't consciously.
No, I think subconscious is. It plays a huge part in all art
and I use it quite. I use my subconscious quite
(25:24):
consciously. That's not a contradiction.
When I'm writing, if I, I'm kindof working away on a song and
like, I've maybe I've got a chorus and I'm looking for a
melody in the verse and I'm trying for a few hours and I
can't quite get it. What I do is I go away and I
just switch off for a bit and I'll go and have a sandwich or
go for a walk and let your subconscious work on the record,
(25:46):
work on the, you know, try and solve the puzzle.
And it often does. You often come to actually got
it. Yeah, so the subconscious is a
is a great tool. And if you, if you've got a lot
better at sort of being discerning about your work now,
do do you? Do you also then judge your
early work more harshly and go, you know how, how, how did that
make it? Yes, I think I'm quite, I can be
(26:08):
quite. Yeah, I can be quite, quite,
quite critical of of. Do you go off things?
Yeah, I mean, there's lots of stuff that that we did in the
early days that that I wouldn't do again.
I'm always looking at early albums and thinking, God, why
did we put that song on there? You know what I mean?
It's kind of, it's odd, but you have to remember that that you
do these things because you're adifferent person.
(26:29):
You know, they said it's a very different me that made those
decisions. And also the other thing to
remember is that people, I thinkpeople like things not despite
their flaws, but because of their flaws.
Sometimes the flaws give it givegive things kind of like
character. You you've described Broken
Music for Broken People as a as a film.
(26:49):
Well, a little bit of 1984 in there.
Yeah. What do you mean by that?
There's a phrase in in 1984 whenWinston is, is, is kind of
yearning for some sort of some sort of kind of uprising in
society. And he's, he's, he says if
there's hope, it lies with the pros and I aspect and and the
(27:12):
and the phrase broken music for broken people.
It's sort of that sort of it's, it reminded me of that.
Do you think that's true? Do I think if?
There's hope. It lies with the pros.
I don't know that's, you know, it's a novel.
It's it's it's I don't want, I'mnot sure if I want to kind of
like tread there as it feels a bit, you know, it feels a bit
red hot sort of talking about that.
I'd rather not go there. I think.
(27:34):
I think slogans can be really powerful in pop music.
And that was just a slogan that I came up with.
It didn't really have a narrative, but it suggested the
world. It suggested that a kind of
like, I suppose I'm kind of always writing about my
background a little bit. You know, like we were saying
earlier, I come from sort of an underprivileged background and
I'm always trying to find a pride in that, I suppose.
(27:56):
And, and broken Music for brokenPeople sort of spoke to, spoke
to that. Do you want to?
Deliberately avoid politics. No, I don't want to deliberately
avoid politics, but I think it'sbecome increasingly tribal and
increasingly toxic, and it's very difficult to talk about
because the. Funny thing is that Dancing with
the Europeans, which is one of your releases, sounds instantly
political. It does and I was aware that it
(28:22):
probably would people, lots of people would think it was some
sort of anti Brexit song or something like that.
And I don't it wasn't intended like that.
It's meant as a song. It's a song seeking connection.
It was it was inspired by a concert I did we did in Spain
where there was just an amazing connection in the room.
So it's that there's a song about kind of breaking down
barriers in lots of ways, I suppose.
(28:43):
But you know, people can sort oflike interpret songs however
they want to. I think that's the beautiful
thing about songs and there's a beautiful thing about art and a
broader sense is that it doesn'tbelong to the artist, it belongs
to the interpreter. It belongs to the audience.
You know, the asks a question and the audience answers it.
And I think that's an incrediblething.
The audience always brings a newelement to the to to the art.
(29:07):
And something like that is a perfect example.
If people want to think it's about something like that,
they're perfectly welcome to. If you could change the world in
any way, how would you change it?
If I could change the world in any way, I've thought about
this. I think one of the one of the If
I could wave a magic wand, I would uninvent social media.
(29:29):
I think social media is responsible for many ills in
21st century life. I think that the way that it
polarizes people, the way that it tribalizes, it tribalizes.
Is that a word? Probably that it is now the way
that the way that tribalizes people turns people into tribes.
(29:53):
Yeah. I, I think it's toxic and I
think it, it means that lots of people are living in very
different realities. And it and it worries me that
those those realities won't be able to be resolved.
Is that, I mean, because obviously, you know, the the
supposed upside to social media is creating connections and yet
we seem very disconnected. Yeah, I think what it does is it
(30:15):
creates, creates, creates connections within sort of
siloed groups. So, so that people find their
tribes. And I suppose as a, as a kind of
musician that kind of likes tribalism within music, that's
sounds like a contradiction. I think it's fine for pop music
to find, for, for pop musicians to find tribes.
You know, the music I used to like as a kid, it was very
(30:35):
tribal, you know, punk, heavy metal, all these sorts of
things. But as a society, it, it kind of
worries me that we seem to be splitting off into these ever,
ever more fractured groups. So yeah, I think it, I think in
lots of ways that people find connection through it, but it
also means that there's there's lots of division as well.
And is that partly what you meanby broken people?
(30:57):
I think so, yeah. I think it is.
I think it's I, I, I sort of see, I see lots of lots of lots
of fracturing in, in, in life atthe moment, yeah.
You you also though do try to be, I mean, you know, music is
is is an antidepressant. It's therefore uplifting and
happy. So how do you, you know, when
you, when you're looking at these sort of quite dystopian
(31:21):
things in a lot of ways, how do you turn it to actually, we've
got to feel great and we've got to turn the music up loud?
And yeah, well, I think that that the two are a sort of, you
know, in a symbiotic relationship.
I think if you, if you feel thatthat that kind of life is, is,
is sometimes, sometimes kicking you down, that there's a sense
(31:42):
of sort of defiance to that. Lots of the sort of sense of joy
on the on the record is a, is a is, is an expression of
defiance. You know, I think that kind of,
you know, people are yearning for to, to better let go and be
defiant these days. I just find there's a top tip if
you're listening to music all day as an antidepressant.
(32:04):
Yes. What are you listening to at the
moment? What do I listen to at the
moment? Well, I listen to a lot of In
the morning. I listen to I've got a little
little record player in my houseand it's really interesting what
sounds good on a little. It's like an old dance set
thing, like a mono thing, and really old sort of 60s folk
records sound great on that. So I love playing Nick Drake and
(32:25):
Joni Mitchell and things like that in the in the morning and
then later on I listen. I always try and listen to new
stuff as well, so there's new bands that I like.
There's a band called New Dad that I really like, so I'm
always looking for new stuff. I like things like Fontanes, I
like things like dry cleaning, things like that.
So there's lots of good new music out there.
(32:46):
I think you've got to look harder for it, but it's out
there definitely. But Anderson, thank you very
much indeed. Thank you so much.
Thanks for sharing. Your ways to change the world.
I hope you enjoyed that. If you did, you could give this
a rating so that other people find the podcast on your podcast
platform. You can watch all of these
interviews on the Channel 4 NewsYouTube channel.
Until next time, bye bye.
Nostalgia has never meant anything to me.
I'm I'm never interested in in in what we did in the past.
I'm interested in what we're doing in the future.
It would be really sad if I was still trying to write about
being a 20 year old man in my 50s.
So I try and write about the things that concern me now do.
You want to deliberately avoid politics.
(00:21):
No, I don't want to deliberatelyavoid politics, but I think it's
become increasingly tribal and increasingly toxic, and it's
very difficult to talk about. Hello and welcome to Ways to
Change the World. I'm Christian Guru Murphy and
this is the podcast in which we talk to extraordinary people
about the big ideas in their lives and the events that have
(00:43):
helped shape them. My guest this week is Brett
Anderson, the front man of Suede, who are releasing their
tenth album called Antidepressants and are taking
over the South Bank Centre in London for a series of events in
September. Now that of course will be after
a summer of Brit pop revival provoked by the Oasis concerts.
That whole movement was, of course, something Suede were
(01:05):
inescapably associated with but always a bit disdainful of.
Suede remain unmistakable in their sound, but Brett's writing
continues to evolve to the timesand his age.
Never acutely political, it is nonetheless clearly social
commentary and it's a delight towelcome you to the studio.
It's a pleasure to be here, Krishna.
So you've called this. In fact, there's a track on the
(01:26):
album called Broken Music for Broken.
People. Yeah.
What do you? Mean by that?
I sort of feel that sort of society is on a is a kind of a
bit of a breaking point. At the moment.
It feels like we're in a bit of a pressure cooker and I don't
quite know what the next stage is, but it, I wanted to reflect
some of that. I wanted to reflect some of the
(01:47):
sort of 21st century angst that I've that, that kind of like
bleeds through into my life and lots of people's lives.
I think. And I think as a, as a writer,
you're, you know, it's, it's not, it's very different from
being, from being a journalist. You're not looking for specific
questions and specific answers. You're picking up on, on, on
kind of like your senses are picking up on, on emotions and
(02:09):
things. And it's much more of a kind of
a impressionistic view of the world that you're making.
So I'm kind of like it's writingsongs is very much about
expressing feelings. So I was trying to express some
of those feelings. And what do you think that 21st
century angst is? Where does it come from?
I don't know, I'm not a journalist, so I can't, I can't
really, I can't really pinpoint to feel it, but I know it's
(02:31):
there. And so music is music is a blunt
tool in lots of ways. You know, songwriting is a very
blunt tool. You haven't got the kind of like
you haven't got the kind of nuances that you had.
You might have, if you're writing prose, you're tied to
rhyme and you're tied to tied torhythm, all these sorts of
things. And, and because of that, music
is a very blunt tool. But when it kind of strikes the
right chord, it's incredibly powerful.
(02:53):
And 3 or 4 words, kind of like song with a, with a, with a
certain melody can, can, can really be incredibly powerful
actually. So I kind of, I'm always
searching as a writer for, for, for those little moments, those
little moments of magic. I mean, a a swayed record is is
a mistake of the a swayed record, you know, I mean, you're
very much still the rock band that you became famous for,
(03:17):
although obviously there there'svariety and development a lot
along the way. But I mean, is that a conscious
thing that you have to, you know, we are basically doing 3
or 4 minute rock songs, of course.
I think you've, you've become sort of like more conscious of,
of your own identity. And I think we become, as you
get older, you're able to sort of analyze that and able to,
able to pinpoint what it is thatmake that gives you something
(03:40):
different from other bands. So kind of musically, there's,
there's, there's things in, in the in the makeup of our music
that we can kind of identify. There's a thing called the suede
chord. And the suede chord is, is what
we put in it often at the end ofa chorus, at the start of the
chorus. And it's basically a chord that
takes it out of the key and it kind of shifts and it kind of
like has a has a bit of a jolt. So there's like little musical
(04:01):
devices we put in there that gives us our own sound, I
suppose, as well as other thingslike that.
I mean, the nature of my voice, it's quite, it's not, I don't
have a kind of like a normal sort of like rock voice.
It's a different kind of the wayI use it and stretch it and
stuff like that. It's different.
So yeah, I think you kind of, you just lean into it and you
learn, you learn to sort of respect what's, what's unique
(04:21):
about you, I think. Actually, the suede chord what?
What is it, suede chord? I don't really know.
It's just something that kind oflike came about and then we kind
of realized it was there, you know?
Yeah. And do you know when to use it?
I think so, yeah, maybe sometimes we overuse it, but
it's a it's a thing that's therein the in the suede's makeup.
Yeah. And you, yeah, I mean, you
mentioned your voice. I mean like how?
(04:42):
Because again, your voice soundsit's, it's, you know, it's got
this very, very distinctive sound and very distinctive
production. Yeah.
On, on the records, yeah. Is that difficult to maintain as
you get older or you does your voice change?
I see what you mean. No, my voice, your voice does
change. There's a, there's a tendency
(05:02):
for people to sort of think thatas you get older, you can't
reach the notes, all that kind of thing.
And that's not really true. When you're in the middle of a
tour and you've been singing forthree nights in a row, your
voice gets a bit ragged. But I kind of like, I can, my
falsetto is still pretty good and I, I think I can still reach
the notes and I kind of learn how to use it now.
I learn how to, I learn on what part of the sort of register
(05:24):
it's, it's comfortable. And I kind of, I kind of, I can
kind of like sort of lean into a, a kind of like more of a kind
of sort of interesting baritone now, whereas before I wasn't
really in control of that part of my voice.
So you just sort of experience is a wonderful thing.
It kind of like it just teaches you how to learn to play your
instrument. My instrument is my voice.
(05:45):
The the new album is called AntiDepressed.
Yeah, What? Why?
It's a, it's a, it's a slightly cheeky title because it's almost
like the, the, the phrase antidepressants, excuse me, kind
of refers to the 11 songs on, onthe record.
It's supposed to be like, you know, these, these 11 songs are
the antidepressants kind of thing.
So that's one level of the, of the, of the title, but also I, I
(06:09):
kind of wanted to sort of hint at and reflect the, the kind of
like there's a sort of, there's a sort of medicalization of
society that I find fascinating,that kind of sense that, that,
that the human condition is being turned into a
prescription. And I kind of wanted to reflect
some of that. I find certain phrases like
something like personality disorder.
That phrase is really interesting because personality
(06:30):
disorder order is basically can cover any any sort of part of
the range of being a human beingand do.
You have any diagnosis yourself?None that I'm willing to share.
So I find that I find the whole medicalization of the human
condition really fascinating. And, and, and, and the sense of
(06:51):
depression being something that you can cure.
The pill is really, is really interesting.
And I think in the lots of ways it's quite deluded.
So I think there's that. I think, I think sadness and and
unhappiness and anxiety are justnecessary parts of being a human
being. And I mean, did you always feel
(07:11):
that sort of need for antidepressant if you like?
I mean, is that part of, you know, why you took drugs when
you were younger and all that kind of stuff?
Well, I don't know about that, but it's I think that there's
different definitions of antidepressants.
You know that you can use music as my antidepressant in lots of
ways. I'm still completely in love
with music. And you have to be if you're if
(07:32):
you're pursuing a career sort of30 plus years down the line sort
of thing. So music is an incredibly
powerful thing for me. And I, I, I use it like, like
I'd use a pill. I can wake up in the morning and
I put a record on and, you know,I little go through the whole
day listening to music and it's,you know, it's a, it's a, it's
a, it's a wonderful thing. And and how different is
(07:53):
listening to music to writing music when it comes to your
mental health? Much, much easier to listen to
music than writing music. I mean, we spend, we, we, we
write a lot of songs. So we work very hard at what we
do. So this new album, we've
probably been writing it for about 3 years now.
(08:13):
Every album takes at least two or two or three years to write.
I know we throw a lot of songs away.
We we probably wrote 50 songs for this album and end up using
about 10 of them. So it's about 5:00 to 1:00 ratio
kind of thing. 4 to 1 or whatever it is.
My math isn't as good as it was.What?
What makes you throw them away, and what happens to the
(08:33):
throwing? Away songs they just get, they,
they get, they just die. They get, they just die gasping,
you know, for air in the in the kind of in the bag sort of
thing. They they sometimes get reused.
Rarely. I don't mind.
I'm quite, I'm quite, I'm quite sort of ruthless.
I don't, I don't. I'm not particularly sentimental
(08:55):
for songs that don't get used. So how do you judge?
I mean, how do you decide that? You, you, you just have to be
objective. You just have to sort of like,
say, is this good enough? You know, I'm not kind of like,
I'm not. I don't over romanticize what I
do. I'm kind of like, if a song's
good, I'll kind of, it'll be good because it's good sort of
thing. That's just an instinctive thing
and you learn how to judge that he's a better as you get older,
(09:18):
I think, you know, I think it's harder to judge when you're
young. When you're young as a band, you
go through phases. You go through this phase of
struggle where you can't really write songs and suddenly you can
write songs. And then you go through what's
called the imperial phase where where basically everything you
write is kind of gold dust. And then you go through another
phase where you think everythingyou write is gold dust, but it's
not. And you kind of, that's when you
(09:39):
that's when the mistakes start happening.
And then if you stick around long enough, you go through
another phase where you're able to have objective kind of like
real objectivity about your work.
And we're at that stage now. So I kind of like I, I kind of
think I know what the good stuffis, so.
What is the gold dust phase then?
What creates that? I don't know, it's just some.
Weird alchemy I. Wish I knew.
Yeah, yeah. It's it's experience.
(10:01):
It's it's it's a bit of inspiration.
It's a lot of perspiration as well.
What was your goal dust phase then?
Well, I mean the imperial phase with, with with every band, it's
the early years. It's, it's kind of like for us,
it was like the early 90s or whatever, that kind of period
where everything you wrote was just Oh yeah.
There's another great one. There's another grammar.
Didn't really have to think about it too much.
And I think you're, you're much more instinctive in those days.
(10:24):
As you get older. You have to learn you, you have
to sort of learn it a bit more, a bit more technically and learn
a bit and learn to be in controlof your, of your objectivity a
bit more, I think. Your your background, your
working class backgrounds was always important to your writing
and you've written about it in books as well in in great
(10:48):
detail. How?
What is your class identity now and how important is it?
What class identity? Well, I mean, class is such a
weird thing to to to, to, to pinpoint, isn't it?
It's so it's so hard that all the, the, the myriad of things
that go, go to make up class. It's so it's so hard to really
identify. I think of myself as working
(11:10):
class because that's how I was born.
I was, but you know, I was born to, to, to a very poor family.
My father was a, was a taxi driver.
We lived in a little council house in Sussex.
But it was an unusual upbringingbecause it wasn't a conventional
working class upbringing. We didn't live in a tower
blocking Hackney. We didn't live in a in a mining
(11:31):
town in the north of England. It was a sort of a council
estate on the edge of a sort of Sussex village.
So it's a weird kind of thing and that.
Feels really nice. I've cycled.
Yeah, it is. It's lovely, but not the bit I
lived in, you know, so and my mum and dad were very cultured.
So my father was a was a taxi driver, but he was a classical
music obsessive, not just a fan.He was a clan.
(11:52):
He used to go to lists, friends lists, birthplace every year
and, you know, pay homage to friends list, this sort of
thing. And my mother was an artist so
that the, the house, even thoughthere was no money, we were, we
were, we were sort of like financially poor, but culturally
rich. And I was exposed to lots of
arts and my sister became an artist and all these sorts of
things. So it's a weird kind of
(12:12):
contradiction of, of, of, of of things that that go to my
upbringing. So I think of myself as working
class, but obviously the values that my family had weren't
working class or not conventionally working class.
How, how do you feel? I mean, during Suede's sort of
emergence and sort of initial stardom, we were in a period of
(12:33):
Britain in which, you know, people wanted class to
disappear. You know, there was great social
progress. We were, you know, gay rights,
anti racism, All of these thingswere kind of like on the March
and we were heading towards somesort of weird classless society
in which everyone would be middle class.
(12:54):
That was sort of Arrested Development, wasn't it?
Shortly after that. And, and if you look at where we
are now, the broken people we are now, class seems sort of
important again. You know, it's the thing that
defines a lot of our culture wars, our politics.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, I think people are always
looking for identity, aren't they?
You know, they, they every, everyone's always looking for
(13:14):
to, to, to, to sort of like be part of a tribe.
And that's what, that's what happens in politics and that's
what happens with religion. That's what happens with music
as well. And I think that's one of the
reasons that the music is still such an incredibly live music,
especially it's such a powerful force because it gives people a
forum to to to to identify with groups of people.
(13:35):
Also, the other thing interesting thing about live
music is I think that it gives people a, a space to let go.
I think that's really important.I think society now feels
there's a sense of suppression about society that I feel.
I feel as though as a, as a citizen of the 21st century,
you're being issued with commands.
(13:56):
You know, you get on the train and you're being told to see it,
say it's sorted. You put your headphones on,
you're saying disconnected, connected.
It's this sort of series of commands you've been issued and
that sense you lose when you're in a, in a gig and when you're
experiencing live music. Because you can kind of like,
you let yourself go and become primal again, but within a sort
(14:16):
of a kind of safe framework. In a way.
You know, you can kind of like, you can become the sort of the
mad sort of animalistic sort of version of yourself that you're
only allowed to within a, withina, within a gig and then kind.
Of and it is tribal, you're witha bunch of people who feel the
same way. Yeah, exactly.
With a group of people and that's that search for for
(14:36):
identity. And that's what, you know, that
sort of thing. I guess when people were sitting
around a campfire, you know, 40,000 years ago and there was
kind of like Saber toothed tigers kind of like circling
them and stuff like that. And they were, you know, they
were sort of singing songs and, and there was the same kind of
thing. It's that search for that kind
of like identity, you know? So how, how do you feel about
this Brit pop revival this summer with all these huge gigs
(14:58):
and lots of live music and, you know, people enjoying themselves
in a nostalgic way? That's fine for them.
With respect, it doesn't mean anything to me.
Nostalgia. Nostalgia has never meant
anything to me. I'm I'm never interested in, in,
in what we did in the past. I'm interested in what we're
doing in the future, with all due respect, that everyone has
(15:21):
to get what they can out of these things.
And that's absolutely fine. Totally respect that.
Suede, it's all about our next record.
It's all about the latest thing we're doing.
I love that about Suede. I love that sense of sense of
sense of, of, of industry that we have.
We're, we're kind of, we work very hard.
That's why we're sort of 10 albums in and still loving what
(15:42):
we're doing kind of thing. Nostalgia.
Yeah, fine. I'm I'm proud of what we did in
the 90s. Lots of other bands, they seem
to just be going around the in circles doing the same thing
that they did in the 90s. That's fine, whatever.
That's what they want to do. I don't, I don't have any
criticism for that. I don't particularly want to
want to. Do that.
Do you enjoy being nostalgic about the music you love?
(16:03):
Yourself. So of course, because you know,
there's there's a there's a phase in your life, isn't there?
Where, where music, you know, when you're 1516, that kind of
age in your life and those songs, they speak to you in a
way that they songs will never speak to you again, you know,
and you will always be reminded of those times in your life
through those songs. And so of course, yeah, it's an
(16:24):
incredibly powerful thing, of course.
So how how will your live shows be different than to you know
what we're you know what our Oasis is doing and cast and
everyone? Else is going to be different
because they'll, they'll have songs that are written in 2025.
Yeah. And songs that are written in
1995, Yeah. That's, that's, that's how
they'll be different. Obviously we still play old
songs because there's certain old hits that you just have to
(16:46):
play And, and to be honest, things like Animal Nitro,
beautiful ones, these kind of songs, they're, they're great
songs to, to, to get the audience going.
And we use them as tools in the,in the set.
They kind of like, you know, they get, they get the crowd
rabid and, and I like hysteria in gigs.
Hysteria is really important. You know, I don't like gigs to
be a kind of a sort of a sort oftoo intellectual an affair.
(17:10):
It's got to be passionate. It's got to be animalistic.
How easy is it to be hysterical in the South Bank Centre then?
Well, it's sort of a cultural. Find out.
Yeah, there are seats and thingslike that.
You. Know, I mean there are seats,
but I we've done quite a few seated venues on the on the last
tour and I always get the crowd to just come down the front and
I just, you know, get out of your seats, come down.
(17:31):
It's got to be sway. Gigs have got to be mad, you
know, and our fans know what to do, so hopefully be OK.
And you you you do very loud andand also quite quiet acoustic.
Moments as well. Yeah.
I think live music is is about those extremes.
I think it's, it's, it's all about, you know, a barrage of
noise and then kind of intimacy or something like that, you
(17:53):
know, just it's all about those,those dynamics, I think.
Because what, what are you getting out of constantly
writing? You know, there are a lot of
people who say, well look, you know, you've got a Canon of
work. You don't really need to be
writing any new stuff. You can make a great living and
have lots of fun and go out on stage and all the rest of it
playing what you've done. So what?
What is it you get in terms of the kick or the stimulation or
(18:15):
whatever it is from continuing to?
Do new stuff. It's it's just, I think a writer
needs to write. It's as simple as that.
You kind of like, you know, whenyou're in a band, you're, you're
both a writer and a performer and performing things is they're
both just as important as each other.
But I need, I can't, I couldn't just have one of those things.
I need the, I need the, I need to create as well.
(18:37):
And the search for the perfect song is it is, it is a really
addictive thing. Actually.
It's really that that kind of like you're, you're, you're sort
of like reaching, you're reaching, you're reaching,
you're trying to, you're trying to capture this sort of elusive
butterfly. But when you get it in your net
and you get that chorus and you get that melody, it's there's,
there's no feeling like it and. Do you think people are sort of
(18:58):
looking at your words now the way that I hope so.
People used to, well, the way you used to kind of have to
because you'd read the album andyou'd see the the lyrics on the
album's sleeve and all that kindof stuff, which is obviously not
how people listen to music now. So if you want to go and see
what it is you're precisely saying, you've got to look it
up. Yeah.
Yeah. And do you think people do?
(19:19):
I think they do. I mean it, it, I mean words in
music fascinate me because I think there's certain bands that
it doesn't really matter what the words are.
The words are just acting as a sort of like, almost like a, a
sort of device for the, for the,for the singer to play his
instrument almost, you know, andthat's fine.
And there's lots of great music that isn't particularly
(19:40):
literary. And then there's other bands
that the words mean everything, you know, it's, it's, it's, it
very much depends on the band. But I don't, I, I'm kind of, I,
I think we're sort of somewhere in between the, the, the I, I've
never, I, I don't write sort of pieces of prose or poetry and
then sort of like force music onto them.
I kind of, it's very much a, kind of like a, a collaborative
(20:01):
affair between the melody and the, and the words.
But words are very important to me.
The find finding the key the most used, you know, is a, is a
really is, is a really wonderfulthing.
I spend a lot of time scribblinginto my notebook, listening to
phrases, stealing phrases from films and books and things like
that. And.
You know, ripping them off. And you know, that's what art
(20:22):
is, It's appropriation, isn't it?
But you've got to be clever about it.
I. Mean the the beginning of this
record sort of begins with humandisintegration?
Yes. Is that how you feel?
You know, are you, are you worried about being your age?
I think as you get older, I'm 58now and I think, you know, as
(20:43):
you sort of like, you know, I'm nearly 60 and, and you have to
be aware of mortality and you have to be aware of your own
mortality. But I don't think that that's
necessary a morbid thing. I think it's AII treat.
I treat sort of the sense of mortality in the same sense that
memento Mori is used in art. So memento Mori is that it's,
(21:07):
you know, it's as we know, it's a, it's a reminder of death,
quite literally. But that reminder of death
enables you to seize the moment and to live life to its full.
And I think that's a really important attitude to have to
life, that there's not much timeleft.
But that's not a bad thing. Live life to the full.
And that's what, that's one of the messages of the song,
(21:29):
messages of the album, I suppose.
Do you think that brackets you in terms of who's who's going to
be drawn to the music? Are you writing for your own
generation now? Am I writing for my own
generation? But no, I don't feel that sense
that I am. I'm writing for myself and that
that's projected onto people my age.
(21:49):
I like to think that that obviously I'm, I'm aware that
there's most of our listeners are are, are kind of my
generation maybe a little bit younger, but we also do to do
attract quite a lot of younger people as well.
So they obviously connect with it in a different way.
But yeah, I think every, every band sort of has to inevitably
writes for their own generation because they're writing for
themselves. So.
(22:10):
When you say you're writing for yourself, what do you mean?
I mean, do you mean literally you're writing for yourself
because. No, I mean that that you reflect
you, you, you, you kind of use yourself as a sounding board to
to explore parts of the human condition.
So, so when you're a young writer in your 20s, you're
writing about sort of being a 20year old man.
(22:31):
It would be really sad if I was still trying to write about
being a 20 year old man in my 50s.
So I try and write about the things that concern me now as a
5058 year old man. So I write about, I think you've
always got songwriting is about accessing passion.
And when you're young, that passion is sort of things like,
(22:53):
Oh, my girlfriend's left just left me and oh, I feel a bit
lonely and all these sorts of things, you know?
And when you get older, your passion, my passions are things
like my family, right? So you it's a completely
different sort of passion, obviously.
But it's a very different kind of passion, isn't it?
But it's because you might just find yourself writing about your
irritating children or. Exactly.
Yeah, Yeah, yeah. So I'm, I write about my family
(23:15):
a lot. I write, you know, the songs
about my son that I write because that's the, these things
obsess me because that's the, the, the those, that's where I
found real passion. And I write about the fragility
of family as well, the kind of like the paranoia of family.
I think there's a, there's a tendency for people to sort of
see that writing about one's family is a, is a kind of like a
(23:37):
cozy affair and that you always have to write about a family in
a, in a kind of nice cozy sense.And I like to look for the, the
darker elements of, of family life.
I never, I never looked for themin a, in, in my day-to-day as a,
as a, as a husband and a father.I, I, I, I, I never let that
into my, into my train of thought.
(23:58):
But as a writer, I think that's a really interesting place to
find, I mean. I've seen you sort of talking
about right as a writer, kind ofputting yourself in.
Yeah, yeah. Yeah.
And is that is that your your, your sort of your kick if you
like? Yeah, I think, I think just sort
of looking at the world from different through different
through different eyes. Yeah, that's I've always tried
(24:20):
to do that from the very early days.
I also put myself in different people's, you know, if they come
from different perspectives. Some of the songs are about me,
but from other people's points of view, you know, I think
that's kind of keeps it fresh and it keeps it interesting.
And it also I think keeps it, it, it fluid.
I think, I think keeping songs interesting.
Songs are interesting when you don't quite know what they're
about. As soon as I personally know
(24:42):
what a song's about, I kind of, I get a bit bored of it
sometimes I find that it's not interesting to me.
I like it when I, when I work out 20 years later what my songs
are about, you know, and sometimes they do reveal to
themselves, to me very slowly. Which ones have surprised you?
Well, there's a song on the debut album called The Next
Life, and I didn't really realize it was about my mother
(25:03):
until quite recently. And you know, and these songs
that they've, they've got these different, they reveal
themselves over a long period oftime.
Just explain that I mean. Well, it's, it's a song about
lost, but it's specifically about my mother, so, you know, I
don't know it. Wasn't consciously.
No, I think subconscious is. It plays a huge part in all art
and I use it quite. I use my subconscious quite
(25:24):
consciously. That's not a contradiction.
When I'm writing, if I, I'm kindof working away on a song and
like, I've maybe I've got a chorus and I'm looking for a
melody in the verse and I'm trying for a few hours and I
can't quite get it. What I do is I go away and I
just switch off for a bit and I'll go and have a sandwich or
go for a walk and let your subconscious work on the record,
(25:46):
work on the, you know, try and solve the puzzle.
And it often does. You often come to actually got
it. Yeah, so the subconscious is a
is a great tool. And if you, if you've got a lot
better at sort of being discerning about your work now,
do do you? Do you also then judge your
early work more harshly and go, you know how, how, how did that
make it? Yes, I think I'm quite, I can be
(26:08):
quite. Yeah, I can be quite, quite,
quite critical of of. Do you go off things?
Yeah, I mean, there's lots of stuff that that we did in the
early days that that I wouldn't do again.
I'm always looking at early albums and thinking, God, why
did we put that song on there? You know what I mean?
It's kind of, it's odd, but you have to remember that that you
do these things because you're adifferent person.
(26:29):
You know, they said it's a very different me that made those
decisions. And also the other thing to
remember is that people, I thinkpeople like things not despite
their flaws, but because of their flaws.
Sometimes the flaws give it givegive things kind of like
character. You you've described Broken
Music for Broken People as a as a film.
(26:49):
Well, a little bit of 1984 in there.
Yeah. What do you mean by that?
There's a phrase in in 1984 whenWinston is, is, is kind of
yearning for some sort of some sort of kind of uprising in
society. And he's, he's, he says if
there's hope, it lies with the pros and I aspect and and the
(27:12):
and the phrase broken music for broken people.
It's sort of that sort of it's, it reminded me of that.
Do you think that's true? Do I think if?
There's hope. It lies with the pros.
I don't know that's, you know, it's a novel.
It's it's it's I don't want, I'mnot sure if I want to kind of
like tread there as it feels a bit, you know, it feels a bit
red hot sort of talking about that.
I'd rather not go there. I think.
(27:34):
I think slogans can be really powerful in pop music.
And that was just a slogan that I came up with.
It didn't really have a narrative, but it suggested the
world. It suggested that a kind of
like, I suppose I'm kind of always writing about my
background a little bit. You know, like we were saying
earlier, I come from sort of an underprivileged background and
I'm always trying to find a pride in that, I suppose.
(27:56):
And, and broken Music for brokenPeople sort of spoke to, spoke
to that. Do you want to?
Deliberately avoid politics. No, I don't want to deliberately
avoid politics, but I think it'sbecome increasingly tribal and
increasingly toxic, and it's very difficult to talk about
because the. Funny thing is that Dancing with
the Europeans, which is one of your releases, sounds instantly
political. It does and I was aware that it
(28:22):
probably would people, lots of people would think it was some
sort of anti Brexit song or something like that.
And I don't it wasn't intended like that.
It's meant as a song. It's a song seeking connection.
It was it was inspired by a concert I did we did in Spain
where there was just an amazing connection in the room.
So it's that there's a song about kind of breaking down
barriers in lots of ways, I suppose.
(28:43):
But you know, people can sort oflike interpret songs however
they want to. I think that's the beautiful
thing about songs and there's a beautiful thing about art and a
broader sense is that it doesn'tbelong to the artist, it belongs
to the interpreter. It belongs to the audience.
You know, the asks a question and the audience answers it.
And I think that's an incrediblething.
The audience always brings a newelement to the to to the art.
(29:07):
And something like that is a perfect example.
If people want to think it's about something like that,
they're perfectly welcome to. If you could change the world in
any way, how would you change it?
If I could change the world in any way, I've thought about
this. I think one of the one of the If
I could wave a magic wand, I would uninvent social media.
(29:29):
I think social media is responsible for many ills in
21st century life. I think that the way that it
polarizes people, the way that it tribalizes, it tribalizes.
Is that a word? Probably that it is now the way
that the way that tribalizes people turns people into tribes.
(29:53):
Yeah. I, I think it's toxic and I
think it, it means that lots of people are living in very
different realities. And it and it worries me that
those those realities won't be able to be resolved.
Is that, I mean, because obviously, you know, the the
supposed upside to social media is creating connections and yet
we seem very disconnected. Yeah, I think what it does is it
(30:15):
creates, creates, creates connections within sort of
siloed groups. So, so that people find their
tribes. And I suppose as a, as a kind of
musician that kind of likes tribalism within music, that's
sounds like a contradiction. I think it's fine for pop music
to find, for, for pop musicians to find tribes.
You know, the music I used to like as a kid, it was very
(30:35):
tribal, you know, punk, heavy metal, all these sorts of
things. But as a society, it, it kind of
worries me that we seem to be splitting off into these ever,
ever more fractured groups. So yeah, I think it, I think in
lots of ways that people find connection through it, but it
also means that there's there's lots of division as well.
And is that partly what you meanby broken people?
(30:57):
I think so, yeah. I think it is.
I think it's I, I, I sort of see, I see lots of lots of lots
of fracturing in, in, in life atthe moment, yeah.
You you also though do try to be, I mean, you know, music is
is is an antidepressant. It's therefore uplifting and
happy. So how do you, you know, when
you, when you're looking at these sort of quite dystopian
(31:21):
things in a lot of ways, how do you turn it to actually, we've
got to feel great and we've got to turn the music up loud?
And yeah, well, I think that that the two are a sort of, you
know, in a symbiotic relationship.
I think if you, if you feel thatthat that kind of life is, is,
is sometimes, sometimes kicking you down, that there's a sense
(31:42):
of sort of defiance to that. Lots of the sort of sense of joy
on the on the record is a, is a is, is an expression of
defiance. You know, I think that kind of,
you know, people are yearning for to, to better let go and be
defiant these days. I just find there's a top tip if
you're listening to music all day as an antidepressant.
(32:04):
Yes. What are you listening to at the
moment? What do I listen to at the
moment? Well, I listen to a lot of In
the morning. I listen to I've got a little
little record player in my houseand it's really interesting what
sounds good on a little. It's like an old dance set
thing, like a mono thing, and really old sort of 60s folk
records sound great on that. So I love playing Nick Drake and
(32:25):
Joni Mitchell and things like that in the in the morning and
then later on I listen. I always try and listen to new
stuff as well, so there's new bands that I like.
There's a band called New Dad that I really like, so I'm
always looking for new stuff. I like things like Fontanes, I
like things like dry cleaning, things like that.
So there's lots of good new music out there.
(32:46):
I think you've got to look harder for it, but it's out
there definitely. But Anderson, thank you very
much indeed. Thank you so much.
Thanks for sharing. Your ways to change the world.
I hope you enjoyed that. If you did, you could give this
a rating so that other people find the podcast on your podcast
platform. You can watch all of these
interviews on the Channel 4 NewsYouTube channel.
Until next time, bye bye.
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